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Sinbad
05-28-2007, 07:09 PM
I know most of you here support Palestine cause "they where there first", even do Israel is the first nation ever in history to be there.

Whats your argument for this?
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Amadeus85
05-28-2007, 09:28 PM
The problem is that Jews were first in Israel, not muslim arabs.

HISTORICAL HIGHLIGHTS







17th-6th C. BCE BIBLICAL TIMES
(BCE - Before the Common Era)
c.17th century The Patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - patriarchs of the Jewish people and bearers of a belief in one God - settle in the Land of Israel.
Famine forces Israelites to migrate to Egypt.
c.13th century Exodus from Egypt: Moses leads Israelites from Egypt, followed by 40 years of wandering in the desert.
Torah, including the Ten Commandments, received at Mount Sinai.
13th-12th
centuries Israelites settle in the Land of Israel
c.1020 Jewish Monarchy established; Saul, first king.
c.1000 Jerusalem made capital of David's kingdom.
c.960 First Temple, the national and spiritual center of the Jewish people, built in Jerusalem by King Solomon.
c. 930 Divided kingdom: Judah and Israel
722-720 Israel crushed by Assyrians; 10 tribes exiled (Ten Lost Tribes).
586 Judah conquered by Babylonia; Jerusalem and First Temple destroyed; most Jews exiled to Babylonia.


536-142 PERSIAN AND HELLENISTIC PERIODS









538-515 Many Jews return from Babylonia; Temple rebuilt.
332 Land conquered by Alexander the Great; Hellenistic rule.
166-160 Maccabean (Hasmonean) revolt against restrictions on practice of Judaism and desecration of the Temple
142-129 Jewish autonomy under Hasmoneans.
129-63 Jewish independence under Hasmonean monarchy.
63 Jerusalem captured by Roman general, Pompey.













63 BCE-313
CE ROMAN RULE
(CE - The Common Era)
63 BCE - 4 CE Herod, Roman vassal king, rules the Land of Israel;
Temple in Jerusalem refurbished
c. 20-33 Ministry of Jesus of Nazareth
66 Jewish revolt against the Romans
70 Destruction of Jerusalem and Second Temple.
73 Last stand of Jews at Masada.
132-135 Bar Kokhba uprising against Rome.
c. 210 Codification of Jewish oral law (Mishnah) completed.

313-636 BYZANTINE RULE
c. 390 Commentary on the Mishnah (Jerusalem Talmud) completed.
614 Persian invasion

636-1099 ARAB RULE
691 On site of First and Second Temples in Jerusalem, Dome of the Rock built by Caliph Abd el-Malik.

1099-1291 CRUSADER DOMINATION
(Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem)

1291-1516 MAMLUK RULE

1517-1917 OTTOMAN RULE
1564 Code of Jewish law (Shulhan Arukh) published.
1860 First neighborhood, Mishkenot Sha'ananim, built outside Jerusalem's walls.
1882-1903 First Aliyah (large-scale immigration), mainly from Russia.
1897 First Zionist Congress convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel, Switzerland; Zionist Organization founded.





1904-14 Second Aliyah, mainly from Russia and Poland.
1909 First kibbutz, Degania, and first modern all-Jewish city, Tel Aviv, founded.
1917 400 years of Ottoman rule ended by British conquest;
British Foreign Minister Balfour pledges support for establishment of a "Jewish national home in Palestine".
Reply

Amadeus85
05-28-2007, 09:29 PM
1918-48 BRITISH RULE
1919-23 Third Aliyah, mainly from Russia
1920 Histadrut (Jewish labor federation) and Haganah (Jewish defense organization) founded.
Vaad Leumi (National Council) set up by Jewish community (yishuv)to conduct its affairs.
1921 First moshav (cooperative village), Nahalal, founded.
1922 Britain granted Mandate for Palestine (Land of Israel) by League of Nations; Transjordan set up on three-fourths of the area, leaving one-fourth for the Jewish national home
Jewish Agency representing Jewish community vis-a-vis Mandate authorities set up.





1924 Technion, first institute of technology, founded in Haifa.
1924-32 Fourth Aliyah, mainly from Poland.
1925 Hebrew University of Jerusalem opened on Mt. Scopus.
1929 Hebron Jews massacred by Arab militants.
1931 Etzel, Jewish underground organization, founded.
1933-39 Fifth Aliyah, mainly from Germany.
1936-39 Anti-Jewish riots instigated by Arab militants.
1939 Jewish immigration severely limited by British White Paper.
1939-45 World War II; Holocaust in Europe.
1941 Lehi underground movement formed; Palmach, strike force of Haganah, set up.
1944 Jewish Brigade formed as part of British forces.
1947 UN proposes the establishment of Arab and Jewish states in the Land.
Reply

Amadeus85
05-28-2007, 09:35 PM
Quote from Charles Krauthammer - The Weekly Standard, May 11, 1998

"Israel is the very embodiment of Jewish continuity: It is the only nation on earth that inhabits the same land, bears the same name, speaks the same language, and worships the same God that it did 3,000 years ago. You dig the soil and you find pottery from Davidic times, coins from Bar Kokhba, and 2,000-year-old scrolls written in a script remarkably like the one that today advertises ice cream at the corner candy store."



Israel History

Israel history goes on and on... Event after event... Reference after reference... The biblical record of "Israel history" never disappointed me...

The defeats of Samaria and Ashdod to Sargon II, king of Assyria, as recorded on his palace walls. 1 The military campaign of the Assyrian king Sennacherib against Judah, as recorded on the Taylor Prism. 2 The siege of Lachish by Sennacherib, as recorded on the Lachish Reliefs. 3 The destruction of Nineveh as predicted by the prophets Nahum and Zephaniah, as recorded on the Tablet of Nabopolasar.4 The defeat of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, as recorded in the Babylonian Chronicles. 5 The Babylonian captivity of Jehoiachin, king of Judah, as recorded in the Babylonian Ration Records. 6 The defeat of Babylon by the Medes and Persians, as recorded on the Cyrus Cylinder. 7 The freeing of the Jewish captives from Babylon by Cyrus the Great, as recorded on the Cyrus Cylinder. 8

The palace at Jericho where Eglon, king of Moab, was assassinated by Ehud. The east gate of Shechem where Gaal and Zebul watched the forces of Abimelech approach the city. The Temple of Baal in Shechem, where the citizens of Shechem took refuge when Abimelech attacked the city. The pool of Gibeon where the forces of David and Ishbosheth fought during the struggle for the kingship of Israel. The royal palace at Samaria where the kings of Israel lived. The Pool of Samaria where King Ahab's chariot was washed after his death. The water tunnel beneath Jerusalem dug by King Hezekiah to provide water during the Assyrian siege. The royal palace in Babylon where King Belshazzar held the feast and Daniel interpreted the handwriting on the wall. The royal palace, gate and square at Susa where the events of Esther, the queen to the Persian king Xerxes, and Mordecai, her cousin, took place. 9

Wow! Only a century and a half ago, European academics in the "Age of Enlightenment" declared that the Bible (especially the Old Testament) was fictional history. Their primary rationale was that empires such as the Hittites, and kings such as David, didn't really exist. Well, now we have dramatic "archaeological support" for their existence! Moreover, in recent years, the archaeological finds have increased dramatically! Therefore, if the rationale for rejecting Old Testament scripture was lack of corroborating historical and archaeological evidence, shouldn't the same rationale exist for validating the Old Testament record now that we're finding such evidence?

Although the general strife in the Middle East has slowed archaeological endeavors somewhat, the Bible's reliability as a historical document continues to be confirmed by the field of archaeology every day. Although absence of archaeological evidence does not necessarily mean absence of the people, place or event, it may be stated emphatically that no archaeological discovery has ever refuted a Biblical reference.

Dr. Nelson Glueck, probably the greatest modern authority on Israeli archeology, has said:

No archeological discovery has ever controverted a single biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries.10

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/israel-history.htm
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- Qatada -
05-28-2007, 09:36 PM
The problem comes from the fact that 'todays modern times' aren't supposed to involve taking over and occupying lands, since it's supposed to be a thing of 'the past.'

So if we're using the logic of 'today' - then they don't have a right over Palestine.


However, if we're using the logic of history, then we know that Palestine became a muslim land, the same way the Byzantinian Romans ruled it, and the same way the Persian Sassanids would fight over Greater Syria against them for it.


If we're talking about a religious sense, then the 'promised land' is for the believers, and Allaah granted it to the Children of Israeel (Ya'qub/Jacob) so long as they kept their side of the covenant [in believing and helping the Prophets/Messengers of Allaah/God] - once they rejected the Messengers, and killed others unjustly, then Allaah removed it from their grasp and gave it to the believers.

This may be one of the reasons why it was given to those who followed Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them.) And the final Messenger of Allaah/God was Muhammad (peace be upon him), and Allaah granted it to the believers again, and the land was for the believers and remained that way until now. One of the reasons why the muslims may be humiliated there is because many of us have turned away from the religion of Allaah, the same way the former Jews did. But He will return it to the believers once again, when He knows that we are worthy of it.



And Allaah Almighty knows best.
Reply

wilberhum
05-28-2007, 09:40 PM
It all depends on what history you want to ignore and when you want to start marking time. How about if we start marking time 50 years ago? Or do you just want to pick a point that suits your stance?
Reply

Zman
05-28-2007, 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by Sinbad
I know most of you here support Palestine cause "they where there first", even do Israel is the first nation ever in history to be there.

Whats your argument for this?

I believe that the Canaanites were the first there. The Canannites, were the forefathers of the modern day Palestinians.

We can cite:

1. The lands first inhabitants, which were Arabesque. Also,

2. We can cite the Qur'an (Just like members of the Jewish faith claim that God promised them the Holy Land in their Torah, and I believe Christians claim it was awarded to them in the Old Testament).

3. Justice. It truly belongs to the palestinians, and no matter how long it takes, an occupation will always be removed and the occupied will eventually be freed.

What has been unjustly taken, will be return to it's rightful owners.

4. Palestine and Jerusalem have been in the Arabs/Muslims trustworthy administration & guidance for centuries. All members of the 3 Abrahamic Faiths were allowed to practice their religions and attend their holy sites, unmolested (with the exception of the remnants of the Crusading armies who were defeated).

Until, the current Israeli's occupied Palestine & Jerusalem, the Muslims and Christians have had a horrendous time performing their religious duties...
Reply

Amadeus85
05-28-2007, 09:47 PM
The funny thing is that the name Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in Quaran.
Reply

- Qatada -
05-28-2007, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
The funny thing is that the name Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in Quaran.

lol


The city of Jerusalem is known in Arabic as "Al-Quds" or "Baitul-Maqdis" ("The Noble, Sacred Place"). Jerusalem is perhaps the only city in the world that is considered historically and spiritually significant to Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. Perhaps you are wondering why Jerusalem is considered a holy city in Islam? Why is this place so important to Muslims?

More info...



"Glory to Allah, Who did take His servant for a journey by night, from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque (Masjid ul-Aqsaa' - in Jerusalem), whose precincts We did bless - in order that We might show him some of Our signs. For He is the One who hears and knows all things."

(Qur'an 17:1)
Reply

Amadeus85
05-28-2007, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
lol


The city of Jerusalem is known in Arabic as "Al-Quds" or "Baitul-Maqdis" ("The Noble, Sacred Place"). Jerusalem is perhaps the only city in the world that is considered historically and spiritually significant to Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. Perhaps you are wondering why Jerusalem is considered a holy city in Islam? Why is this place so important to Muslims?

More info...



"Glory to Allah, Who did take His servant for a journey by night, from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque (Masjid ul-Aqsaa' - in Jerusalem), whose precincts We did bless - in order that We might show him some of Our signs. For He is the One who hears and knows all things."

(Qur'an 17:1)

Sorry my mistake, i meant that the city Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Quaran as far as i know. If im wrong correct me please :)
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- Qatada -
05-28-2007, 10:03 PM
I'm not totally sure about the name of the city itself, but the name of 'the temple of Prophet Solomon' is Masjid ul Aqsaa' (the farthest Masjid/Mosque) as has been stated in that surah/chapter you just quoted.


You can read more about it from here:
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Why-Be...y-Muhammad.htm




Regards.
Reply

Amadeus85
05-28-2007, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I'm not totally sure about the name of the city itself, but the name of 'the temple of Prophet Solomon' is Masjid ul Aqsaa' (the farthest Masjid/Mosque) as has been stated in that surah/chapter you just quoted.


You can read more about it from here:
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Why-Be...y-Muhammad.htm




Regards.

Thanks.
Reply

afriend
05-28-2007, 10:11 PM
Israelians :confused:....?

Would you allow a barbaric overtake of your home? And be left to sit in the bathroom all day...and when you did come out you were spat at, kicked, beaten....I'll let you think about that.

:w:
Reply

Sinbad
05-28-2007, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Zman

I believe that the Canaanites were the first there. The Canannites, were the forefathers of the modern day Palestinians.

We can cite:

1. The lands first inhabitants, which were Arabesque. Also,

2. We can cite the Qur'an (Just like members of the Jewish faith claim that God promised them the Holy Land in their Torah, and I believe Christians claim it was awarded to them in the Old Testament).

3. Justice. It truly belongs to the palestinians, and no matter how long it takes, an occupation will always be removed and the occupied will eventually be freed.

What has been unjustly taken, will be return to it's rightful owners.

4. Palestine and Jerusalem have been in the Arabs/Muslims trustworthy administration & guidance for centuries. All members of the 3 Abrahamic Faiths were allowed to practice their religions and attend their holy sites, unmolested (with the exception of the remnants of the Crusading armies who were defeated).

Until, the current Israeli's occupied Palestine & Jerusalem, the Muslims and Christians have had a horrendous time performing their religious duties...
You can not use islam on this, it works great with other muslims but not evereyone else. I asked for a proof that islam is gods religion even if jesus warned us over and over again to not follow a prophet after him. They said "ismael predicted islam", the child slave belonging to abraham i guess. But it only says so in islam not judaism or christianity.

My point? It only works for fellow muslims.

"Allah gave the land to the jews as long as they respected hes prophets, if they didnt, they would lose it."

The cananites where eradicated, the palestinians are semites, jews converting to islam. Medina was a very jewish city untill they became muslims.

The palestinians where once jews, evereyone was something else before muhammed and islam.

Modern times does allow counqest, its not an "old way". After ww2 The russians occupied eastern finland, Vidborg was a finnish city, but all the finns where pushed out today its an all russian city wiht people who lost their homes in Stalingrad.
Why is it not a debate over this?

Palestine if you will has always been inhabided by jews even before islam. The last having it was the brittish, they gave it to the jews, why does palestinian muslims have right to it?

I do not support Israel, but I do not support Palestine either. They are 2 unimportant nations that take up to much news.

But Who has the right to the land? Israel of course.
Reply

Amadeus85
05-28-2007, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Iqram
Israelians :confused:....?

Would you allow a barbaric overtake of your home? And be left to sit in the bathroom all day...and when you did come out you were spat at, kicked, beaten....I'll let you think about that.

:w:
I guess you are reffering to arabs now.
Reply

Sinbad
05-28-2007, 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by Iqram
Israelians :confused:....?

Would you allow a barbaric overtake of your home? And be left to sit in the bathroom all day...and when you did come out you were spat at, kicked, beaten....I'll let you think about that.

:w:
It happend, its the way of the nature. The brittish and russians invaded Iran in the 19th century. After they left they didnt want to give it back to Iran, they created nations that dont make sence. They collected tribal leaders, draw some map like in africa and south america. Qatar, Baharin, UAE<- my favourite. Yemen, Oman, Kuwait, all so that Iran wouldnt have its land back.
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Amadeus85
05-28-2007, 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by Sinbad
You can not use islam on this, it works great with other muslims but not evereyone else. I asked for a proof that islam is gods religion even if jesus warned us over and over again to not follow a prophet after him. They said "ismael predicted islam", the child slave belonging to abraham i guess. But it only says so in islam not judaism or christianity.

My point? It only works for fellow muslims.

"Allah gave the land to the jews as long as they respected hes prophets, if they didnt, they would lose it."

The cananites where eradicated, the palestinians are semites, jews converting to islam. Medina was a very jewish city untill they became muslims.

The palestinians where once jews, evereyone was something else before muhammed and islam.

Modern times does allow counqest, its not an "old way". After ww2 The russians occupied eastern finland, Vidborg was a finnish city, but all the finns where pushed out today its an all russian city wiht people who lost their homes in Stalingrad.
Why is it not a debate over this?

Palestine if you will has always been inhabided by jews even before islam. The last having it was the brittish, they gave it to the jews, why does palestinian muslims have right to it?

I do not support Israel, but I do not support Palestine either. They are 2 unimportant nations that take up to much news.

But Who has the right to the land? Israel of course.
Interesting point of view.

I agree with you in some acpects.

But i think, that in this land there must be two free and independent states- Israel and Palestina.

But before it happen, both sides must leave the "eye for an eye" rule.

At least my old latin teacher said like that always about this topic.

:rollseyes
Reply

afriend
05-28-2007, 10:21 PM
"Allah gave the land to the jews as long as they respected hes prophets, if they didnt, they would lose it."
Ah yes, but they became arrogant and they disobeyed their messenger.

Look at these verses:

5:19O followers of the Book! indeed Our Apostle has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) apostles, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, so indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things.5:20And when Musa said to his people: O my people! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations.5:21O my people! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers.5:22They said: O Musa! surely there is a strong race in it, and we will on no account enter it until they go out from it, so if they go out from it, then surely we will enter.5:23Two men of those who feared, upon both of whom Allah had bestowed a favor, said: Enter upon them by the gate, for when you have entered it you shall surely be victorious, and on Allah should you rely if you are believers.5:24They said: O Musa! we shall never enter it so long as they are in it; go therefore you and your Lord, then fight you both surely we will here sit down.5:25He said: My Lord! Surely I have no control (upon any) but my own self and my brother; therefore make a separation between us and the nation of transgressors.5:26He said: So it shall surely be forbidden to them for forty years, they shall wander about in the land, therefore do not grieve for the nation of transgressors.
They (The Jews)...were cowardice, and did not fight for what could have been lawfully their's, but they were foolish enough and cowardly not to...Their loss.
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Amadeus85
05-28-2007, 10:24 PM
I heard that Palestinians are simply Arabs who came to Palestina from Syria and Lebanon lands.

If not, tell me if there was any palestinian king or emperor in history?
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afriend
05-28-2007, 10:27 PM
The lineage of Arabs and Jews splits with the differences of Isaac(AS) and Ishmael (AS), Isaac born of Sarah(AS) and Ishmael born of Hajrah (AS). Before that, their ancestors were Solomon(AS) and Dawud(AS) who ruled there, with parts of Solomon's(AS) temple still remaining. That is the relationship. :)

:w:
Reply

Sinbad
05-28-2007, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
I heard that Palestinians are simply Arabs who came to Palestina from Syria and Lebanon lands.

If not, tell me if there was any palestinian king or emperor in history?
Many people will say many things, all of them are right, palestinians have been there before, they also came in the 1920s as guest workers, all of them are right.

Today they are arabs, before Israel arabs hated palestinians, the leasers still do, they treat them worse than israel. After Israel was created they started to support palestinians cause they hated the jews more. Today they are arabs, but they are not arabs by race.

If you look at an ethnicity map syrians are arabs. but they dont spek or look arabic, and they hate being called arabs.

I havent answered your queston, but yet I have, the truth is palestinians are all people that happens to be muslims and in an area drawen in a brittish map.
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- Qatada -
05-28-2007, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by Sinbad
You can not use islam on this, it works great with other muslims but not evereyone else. I asked for a proof that islam is gods religion even if jesus warned us over and over again to not follow a prophet after him. They said "ismael predicted islam", the child slave belonging to abraham i guess. But it only says so in islam not judaism or christianity.

Can you quote where Jesus said that there wouldn't be any prophets after him?



"Allah gave the land to the jews as long as they respected hes prophets, if they didnt, they would lose it."

The cananites where eradicated, the palestinians are semites, jews converting to islam. Medina was a very jewish city untill they became muslims.

No it wasn't, the majority of the people in Medina were arabs. The two tribes of 'Aws and Khazraj were a greater number than the jews. The jews were more literate however.


The palestinians where once jews, evereyone was something else before muhammed and islam.

There were many different groups of people in Greater Syria (Al-Shaam.) There could have been Byzantinian Romans, Persian Sassanids [due to the continuous conflicts they had] - there could be arabs who had become bedouins from Yemen and moved to Greater Syria, so it was a mixture of many many different groups of people.


Modern times does allow counqest, its not an "old way". After ww2 The russians occupied eastern finland, Vidborg was a finnish city, but all the finns where pushed out today its an all russian city wiht people who lost their homes in Stalingrad.
Why is it not a debate over this?

Palestine if you will has always been inhabided by jews even before islam. The last having it was the brittish, they gave it to the jews, why does palestinian muslims have right to it?

So if we're using this logic, what's the US's problem with the Iranians having nukes? I'm not saying i support that, but we're using that logic here.


I do not support Israel, but I do not support Palestine either. They are 2 unimportant nations that take up to much news.

But Who has the right to the land? Israel of course.

Those are just your views, and others differ.
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Amadeus85
05-28-2007, 10:58 PM
I think that except discussing who has more rigts to this land, we sould rather consider how there can be peace between Jews and Arabs, and how to create two free states there.
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wilberhum
05-28-2007, 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
I think that except discussing who has more rigts to this land, we sould rather consider how there can be peace between Jews and Arabs, and how to create two free states there.
That would involve compromise. Neither are interested. Nothing is more important than victory. Peace doesn't even come in a close second,
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Ra`eesah
05-28-2007, 11:21 PM
This should Help this argument.

Its a short clip on Jewish group that says Israel (Zionism) should not exist.

"A Jewish rabbi goes on Fox news to declare that under Judaism, Jews are not meant to have a state and therefore Israel should not exist. "

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ffUTRjQSihk
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wilberhum
05-28-2007, 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by Hashim
:sl:

In the name of Allaah ta'ala, the most gracious, the most merciful.

Every now and than someone feels the urge to ask this question on one of these Islaamic forums and the same points are made by both sides with either side not budging one inch, so ask yourself, whats the point?

Every single 'Isreali' and Palestinian knows that the land of Al Quds belongs to the Muslims and the home-land of the palestinains will remain just that, their home. We all know the palestinian people and this 'Umma of at'tawheed will continue to stand for justice and that which is right and never give up this cause.

The last fifty years have been years of oppression and brutality perpretrated by the zionists, come fifty years time there will be no 'Isreal' and fifty years later no-one will even remember 'Isreal'.

The rockets will continue to rain down upon the butchers of Tel Aviv and the fighters from Hamas and Islaamic Jihaad will never give-up this just cause.

:w:
Confirmation on what I said:
Peace doesn't even come in a close second
Reply

Zman
05-28-2007, 11:38 PM
Originally Posted by Sinbad
You can not use islam on this, it works great with other muslims but not evereyone else. I asked for a proof that islam is gods religion even if jesus warned us over and over again to not follow a prophet after him. They said "ismael predicted islam", the child slave belonging to abraham i guess. But it only says so in islam not judaism or christianity.

My point? It only works for fellow muslims.

Ok, and my point is that YOUR argument works for those Jews & Christians who share your view, and not Muslims.

Those non-Muslims who share our outlook, will be satisfied with our proof and disatisfied with yours.

Your proof doesn't work for us, and ours doesn't work for you, oh well.

Therefore, we are at an impasse...

The cananites where eradicated,

Eradicated by whom and when? Who immediately followed? Other Arabs (of the same lineage), or Jews?

them the palestinians are semites,

Arabs and Jews are Semites. Therefore, an Arab (nowadays) can also play the anti-Semitism card :thumbs_up

jews converting to islam. Medina was a very jewish city untill they became muslims.
Wrong my friend, there were more Arab idolaters than Jewish inhabitants in Medina. It cannot be classified as a "very jewish city." They were not the majority, nor were they a significant minority, compared to the Arab tribes in Medina.

Also, most Jews DID NOT convert to Islam. And the Jewish tribes that resided in medina were banished from it for their treason in wartime, and did not convert to Islam.

The palestinians where once jews,
Huh? Kindly present your proof
Modern times does allow counqest, its not an "old way".
Cool. Then God Willing, it'll be reconquered again, and returned to its rightful owners, the Palestinians.

This reminds me of Gamal Abdel Nassers quote" "What was taken by force, will be returned by force."

Palestine if you will has always been inhabided by jews
Not always. When have Jews ever been the majority in Palestine?

As for nowadays, the only reasons for them being temporarily classified as a majority, was after the massive Russian influx of Jews during Gorbachev's reign.

They also became the majority after building illegal settlements from militarily conquered Palestinian land (after the 1967 War, and considered illegal and under occupation, by the U.N.) and not forgetting the continuous ethnic cleansing and daily slaughtering of Palestinian civilians, by the IOF: The Israeli Occupation Forces.

The last having it was the brittish, they gave it to the jews,
The British Occupied Palestine, they DID NOT inhabitit.

They gave it to the Jews after Betraying the Arabs with their Balfour Declaration and I believe the Sykes/Picot Agreement.

I do not support Israel, but I do not support Palestine either. They are 2 unimportant nations that take up to much news.

But Who has the right to the land? Israel of course.

If they are unimportant and take up too much news, why did you take up the space by creating this thread?

if they're unimportant to you, why are you so concerned and intrigued by it?

if they're unimportant, then why support Israel, when you can Just ignore it. Since it's a trivial topic and unimportant?
Reply

rav
05-29-2007, 02:46 AM
Shalom, I will responded to a few posts I could not let slip by. I hope I offend no one when sharing my views.

The palestinians where once jews, evereyone was something else before muhammed and islam.
I sincerely doubt that the above statement is true. Most likely, they were not Jews.

Arabs and Jews are Semites. Therefore, an Arab (nowadays) can also play the anti-Semitism card
The word "anti-semite" does not mean literally anti any member of humanity who is ethnically a "semite", but means "anti-Jewish".

Not always. When have Jews ever been the majority in Palestine?

As for nowadays, the only reasons for them being temporarily classified as a majority, was after the massive Russian influx of Jews during Gorbachev's reign.

They also became the majority after building illegal settlements from militarily conquered Palestinian land (after the 1967 War, and considered illegal and under occupation, by the U.N.) and not forgetting the continuous ethnic cleansing and daily slaughtering of Palestinian civilians, by the IOF: The Israeli Occupation Forces.
The Jewish people in the 1920's etc made up enough of the population to be granted when the Palestine Mandate was divided 20% of the land which was given to the Jews. While 80% was given the Arabs according to proportions, and that 80% became the state of Jordan. Look at the Palestinians flag and the Jordanian one. Check it out @ google.

http://unimaps.com/flags-mideast/palestine-flag.gif
http://unimaps.com/flags-mideast/jordan-flag.gif

They gave it to the Jews after Betraying the Arabs with their Balfour Declaration and I believe the Sykes/Picot Agreement.
On the contrary, a reasonable amount of imigration occured in a place where no one had any national identity, so they divided it.

The area of the Mandate was originally 118,000 square kilometers (about 45,000 square miles). In 1921, Britain took the 91,000 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate east of the Jordan River, and created Trans-Jordan (later the Arab country of Jordan) as a new Arab protectorate. Jews were barred by law from living or owning property east of the Jordan river, even though that land was over three-fourths of the original Mandate.

In 1923, Britain ceded the Golan Heights (another 1,176 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate) to the French Mandate of Syria. Jews were also barred from living there. Jewish settlers on the Golan Heights were forced to abandon their homes and relocate inside the westerb area of the British Mandate.

The total remaining area of the Mandate for Palestine, after these land deductions, was just under 26,000 square kilometers (about 10,000 square miles). The southern part of the Mandate – the desert of the Negev – was also closed by the British to Jewish settlement. The area was inhabited by 15,000 roaming Bedouins, and had no Jewish or Arab settlements in it.

The balance of the Mandate, the inhabited part of Palestine, and only the part west of the Jordan, was just 14,000 square kilometers. Jewish immigration was limited by the British from time to time, especially after the periods of Arab riots and severely restricted after 1939. At the same time, Arab immigration was not restricted or even recorded. By 1948, when the State of Israel was founded, 1.8 million people lived the western area of the Mandate, estimated to be 600,000 Jews and 1.2 million Arabs. Following the war between the Jews and the Arabs in 1948, the inhabited areas of the 14,000 square kilometers were divided along cease-fire lines between Israel and Jordan/Egypt. 8,000 square kilometers, or 57% of the reduced area (which is only 6.7% of the original Mandate territory), became Israel. The rest of the area of western Palestine, 5,700 square kilometers of historic Judea and Samaria, was annexed by Jordan – and renamed the West Bank - while 360 square kilometers were occupied by Egypt and called the Gaza Strip.

Although I may not agree 100% due to religious reasons, the Zionist ideology advocates the return of Jews to the land of their ancestors from which they were exiled by brutal military conquests. There were two such major exiles in Jewish history - in 586 BCE and six hundred fifty-eight years later, in 72 AD. Both exiles were associated with the total destruction of Jerusalem, the ancient Jewish capital, and the demolition of its temple. The eastern hill of Jerusalem where the citadel captured by King David once stood, south of the Temple Mound, has been called Mount Zion. This name became synonymous with Jerusalem; hence Zionism.

Halevi immigrated to Israel in 1141. So were hundreds of Jewish Rabbis who immigrated to Israel in 1211, followed by Nahmanides is 1267. And so were hundreds of other Jewish spiritual leaders and scholars and thousands of their followers who came to the Land of Israel over hundreds of years, way before the modern political Zionist movement was even born.

As a result of the perpetual yearning of the Jewish people for the Land of Israel, Jewish communities existed there continuously since the destruction of the Second Temple to date, notwithstanding its destroyed or occupied capital. Obviously, there were Jewish communities in that land since the emergence of the Judaic nation with its unique culture, about thirteen hundred years earlier. The presence of Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Christian Crusaders and Muslim Ottomans in their homeland, did not prevent Jews from maintaining their presence there. It definitely did not reduce the aspiration to regain possession of their land and to rebuild their ancient capital.

So please abandon the notion that millions of Jews who were all white (when over 50% of the Jews in Israel are Arab-Jews) came and began stealing land, when it is not the case.

Cool. Then God Willing, it'll be reconquered again, and returned to its rightful owners, the Palestinians.

This reminds me of Gamal Abdel Nassers quote" "What was taken by force, will be returned by force."
I'm sorry if any Native Americans are offended but the above quote seemed to have failed them.

Although in about 700 years, if Native Americans retake America, from the "white man" then it could be compared to the Jews coming back and reclaiming a land which archeologically proves their existance on it, before the birth of Mohammad.

Its a short clip on Jewish group that says Israel (Zionism) should not exist.

"A Jewish rabbi goes on Fox news to declare that under Judaism, Jews are not meant to have a state and therefore Israel should not exist.
I would just like to point out, that these people are insane. Yes, Zionism and Judaism do not match well together, but these people are full of ignorance when it comes to Jewish law (Halakha). Many violate the Torah in numerous aspects.

I just wanted to warn you that although you may seek out whatever Jewish source you wish, I would not consider the Hashkafah's of these people to be very "Jewish".

Would you allow a barbaric overtake of your home? And be left to sit in the bathroom all day...and when you did come out you were spat at, kicked, beaten....I'll let you think about that.
What a generalization from someone who is part of a religion which is at times unfairly discriminated or grouped together, when Islam is such a diverse religion. Now in turn you are demonizing all Israeli's the same way, they demonize you, the same way Serbs demonized Muslims, the same way nazi's demonized Jews.

I'll let you think about that.

Peace to all of you. I'm not really in the mood to debate, so please if you wish respond, but it is pointless, since we will all believe what we do.
Reply

Gangster No.1
05-29-2007, 12:44 PM
Once the land is in the power of the palestinians then there will be justice!

****************
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
05-29-2007, 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by Sinbad
The cananites where eradicated
:sl:

Source?

the palestinians are semites
as were the Canaanites

jews converting to islam.
source?

The palestinians where once jews, evereyone was something else before muhammed and islam.
Ok let me get this straight according to you Palestinians are descendants of jews that converted to Islam(would love to see peer reviewed evidence backing your claim), if this is the case then it's not Palestinians you have a problem with it is ''Islam''

Indeed why would someone state he supports those indigineous to the region and use history to justify his reason for support yet contradict himself when a indigineous group of the same region has a different religion and therefore suddenly don't deserve to be supported in their quest for Nationhood?

there are Palestinian Christians who are descendants of the original ones do these communities have your support? or does everybody have to practice Judaism for them to be recognised as indigineous communities?

Palestine if you will has always been inhabided by jews even before islam. The last having it was the brittish, they gave it to the jews, why does palestinian muslims have right to it?
And Proto-Palestinians inhabited it before Judaism

but tell me, if i took your mobile phone and gave it to the milk man are you saying you would no longer have the right to claim it back?:D wow

I do not support Israel, but I do not support Palestine either. They are 2 unimportant nations that take up to much news.
Yet important enough for you to start a topic about them

But Who has the right to the land? Israel of course.
I do not support Israel
:D

Originally Posted by rav
Shalom.

The word "anti-semite" does not mean literally anti any member of humanity who is ethnically a "semite", but means "anti-Jewish".
:sl:
Then you would agree with me when i say this term anti-semetism in reality is illogical and bankrupt when used in the Palestine-Israel debate?

:w:
Reply

Cognescenti
05-29-2007, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Hashim
:sl:

In the name of Allaah ta'ala, the most gracious, the most merciful.

Every now and than someone feels the urge to ask this question on one of these Islaamic forums and the same points are made by both sides with either side not budging one inch, so ask yourself, whats the point?

Every single 'Isreali' and Palestinian knows that the land of Al Quds belongs to the Muslims and the home-land of the palestinains will remain just that, their home. We all know the palestinian people and this 'Umma of at'tawheed will continue to stand for justice and that which is right and never give up this cause.

The last fifty years have been years of oppression and brutality perpretrated by the zionists, come fifty years time there will be no 'Isreal' and fifty years later no-one will even remember 'Isreal'.

The rockets will continue to rain down upon the butchers of Tel Aviv and the fighters from Hamas and Islaamic Jihaad will never give-up this just cause.

:w:

That is what is needed here! New ideas. Thanks Hashim.
Reply

Amadeus85
05-29-2007, 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by Hashim
:sl:

In the name of Allaah ta'ala, the most gracious, the most merciful.

Every now and than someone feels the urge to ask this question on one of these Islaamic forums and the same points are made by both sides with either side not budging one inch, so ask yourself, whats the point?

Every single 'Isreali' and Palestinian knows that the land of Al Quds belongs to the Muslims and the home-land of the palestinains will remain just that, their home. We all know the palestinian people and this 'Umma of at'tawheed will continue to stand for justice and that which is right and never give up this cause.

The last fifty years have been years of oppression and brutality perpretrated by the zionists, come fifty years time there will be no 'Isreal' and fifty years later no-one will even remember 'Isreal'.

The rockets will continue to rain down upon the butchers of Tel Aviv and the fighters from Hamas and Islaamic Jihaad will never give-up this just cause.

:w:

With this kind of attitude the innocent blood in Holy Land wont stop flowing.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-29-2007, 05:03 PM
I would say Israel has the right to all of that land really, the land was conquered just as the people living in the land was conquered. Then Israel fought its own war with the surrounding nations and won again, they obviously have all rights to the land, after all, the land doesnt really belong to either of these groups "originally"... who really knows for a fact who was there originally anyways? Not only that but who cares?! Nearly every piece of land in the world has been conquered or has conquered others to establish its boundaries. The problem in Palestine is the "militant islam" mind set, there is no government really so the people that fight Israel, fight like cowards and hide amongst "civilians" (if there is such a thing in palestine) and launch rockets at random targets. Basically these people need to recognize defeat, if this was an all out war (which it already was) these people would lose (as they already did once) so now since they cant win in war and have been conquered they choose to terrorize the winners until they give up the land (which they never will). Basically there will come a day when Israel will draw a line and declare a war against Palestine, and I am not talking about the fighters in Palestine, I am talking about every living person. Sadly I think that day is approaching (maybe within 5 years) and then the problem will be solved. It is Israels land and unless the Palestinians quit launching rockets, it will eventually all be Israels land.
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- Qatada -
05-29-2007, 05:12 PM
Now that we've seen that post ^ This hadith doesn't seem that violent afterall:

The Dajjaal (anti-christ) will die at the hands of the Messiah ‘Eesa ibn Maryam/Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him), as is indicated by the saheeh/authentic ahaadeeth.

The Dajjaal will appear on earth and will gain many followers, spreading his fitnah/trials/temptations far and wide. No one will escape his fitnah except a few of the believers.


At that point, ‘Eesa ibn Maryam (peace be upon him) will descend to the eastern minaret in Damascus, and the believing slaves of Allaah will gather around him. He will lead them towards the Dajjaal, who at the time of the descent of ‘Eesa (peace be upon him) will be heading for Bayt al-Maqdis (Jerusalem). ‘Eesa will catch up with him at the gate of Ludd (Lod), a place in Palestine near Bayt al-Maqdis. When the Dajjaal sees him, he will start to melt like salt melting in water, but ‘Eesa (peace be upon him) will say to him, “I have some business with you, you will not get away from me.” Then he will catch up with him and will kill him with his spear. His followers will flee, pursued by the Muslims, who will kill them, and trees and rocks will say, ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allaah, there is Jew behind me – come and kill him!” – apart from the gharqad (box thorn), for it is one of the trees of the Jews.

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ttributes.html


Reply

MTAFFI
05-29-2007, 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Now that we've seen that post ^ This hadith doesn't seem that violent afterall:
Fi,

Why does my post seem violent to you? What seems violent is that even after a truce, even after a war is won, guerrilla and civil war persists. Do you not believe the land was "won" or "taken" fair and square? Every Arabian, european and otherwise was once a different country. These lands dont wage a war like this after losing for the next half century, so why is it OK for the palestinians or muslims in general to do this? Is it because you feel you have some sort of divine right to this land? What about Mecca, is that not enough? Non Muslims are not even allowed on this land, does that seem fair to you? My point in my post above is to illustrate my frustration with the so called guerrilla warfare and it is a view that is shared by many. It is a war that is being waged by Palestinians where the Israelis are not allowed to kill the enemy for fear of whatever their "status" may be. The land is Israels and God willing it will be Israels forever, these people have as much rights to the land as anyone else and then some since they have conquered and defended it. Palestine at this point has an opportunity to keep its portion, but I fear if it keeps up its seemingly endless barrage of mortar attacks the Israelis will continue to increase their hostility and their attacks until Palestine will be fully attacked, invaded and slaughtered.


Please note I do not wish for this to happen, I wish that the Palestinians would just recognize Israel and be happy with what they have, their greed for this land will be their demise
Reply

- Qatada -
05-29-2007, 06:32 PM
MTAFFI, if you've seen Islamic history - you'll realise that when the Christians didn't allow the jews to enter this blessed land, it was the Muslims who actually allowed them in and gave them their rights. That's because this is our duty as muslims. You'll see that wherever Muslim rule was (The Ummaya Dynasty in Spain, The Turkish Ottomans etc), the jews settled there along with them, yet they never settled within a christian state. You know why? Because they feared persecution from the christians.

If the muslims are living within that state, then yes we have lost the land by the will of Allaah, and it will return as it has been prophecised.


Even if the jews have authority there now, atleast they should be just, and treat the muslims with respect. The same way they have been safe under Muslim rule for many, many centuries - safe from the persecution they would face if living in another state.

Yet that isn't the case at all, i have seen many videos on the brutality and hardship the muslims are facing within that country. And even if it is under Jewish rule, that doesn't mean they have the right to harm these people. Especially when it's these people themselves who were once in a similar situation;


Remember! Moses said to his people: "Call to mind the favour of Allah to you when He delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: they set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons, and let your women-folk live: therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord."

[Qur'an 14:6]

Yet it's so ironical that today it's these exact same people who are doing the same thing as Pharoah, they shoot little children who throw rocks, and then accuse Islaam of being terrorism.


But anyway, i don't need to cry out to anyone besides Allaah since He is the All Hearer, All Aware. And after hardship He grants ease, and He tests the believers the same way He tested the believers of the Children of Israel (Jacob/Ya'qub.)


Allaah's Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) spoke the truth when he said:

“This community of mine is a community blessed with mercy. It is not punished in the Hereafter. Instead, it is punished in this world with strife, instability, and bloodshed.” [Musnad Ahmad, Sunan Ab&#238; D&#226;w&#251;d, and Mustadrak al-H&#226;kim] It is an authentic had&#238;th. It indicates that Allah has shown mercy on the Islamic community and that its punishment will be in this world instead of the Hereafter.



Regards.









Reply

Amadeus85
05-29-2007, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah



Even if the jews have authority there now, atleast they should be just, and treat the muslims with respect. The same way they have been safe under Muslim rule for many, many centuries - safe from the persecution they would face if living in another state.


In Israel live, work, study about 1 million muslim Arabs.
Arabs have their own political parties in Knesset.
Lately one Arab became a minister in Israel's goverment.
Arabs living in Israel dont have to carry weapons like Jews living among Palestinians.
They can vote and worship like normal, equal citizens.
Israel even tolerates those Israeli Arabs who openly support Hamas or Hesbullah.
So it is not so bad as you think for Arabs living in Israel.
And about those who live in West Bank and Gaza...I am sure that without terroristic attacks there would be no wall, no patrols, no controls..
When someone makes a suicide attack he cant cry after that his fellows are controled by army.
Reply

islamirama
05-29-2007, 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
In Israel live, work, study about 1 million muslim Arabs.
Arabs have their own political parties in Knesset.
Lately one Arab became a minister in Israel's goverment.
Arabs living in Israel dont have to carry weapons like Jews living among Palestinians.
They can vote and worship like normal, equal citizens.
Israel even tolerates those Israeli Arabs who openly support Hamas or Hesbullah.
So it is not so bad as you think for Arabs living in Israel.
And about those who live in West Bank and Gaza...I am sure that without terroristic attacks there would be no wall, no patrols, no controls..
When someone makes a suicide attack he cant cry after that his fellows are controled by army.


118 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 934 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Source)


1,021 Israelis and at least 4,098 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Source)


7,633 Israelis and 31,307 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Source)


The U.S. gives more than $7,023,288 per day to the Israeli government and military and gives no money to the Palestinians. (View Source)


Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none. (View Source)


1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (View Source)


0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000. (View Source)


The Israeli unemployment rate is 9%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 40%. (View Source)


Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land. (View Source)


Who is oppressing who here?

check out -
http://ifamericansknew.com/
Reply

August
05-29-2007, 07:55 PM
No one's going to like this, but...

It doesn't matter who the land really belongs to. The reality is that the Jews are there now. The Isralies are in control, and no one is going to be able to push them out. If the Palestinians want peace, they will have to accept the permenant existence of Israel. Different people have lost their homelands all throughout history. Should the U.S. give all it's land back to the Indians? Should the Indians that Columbus met give the land they had back to the tribe they conquored it from? Should Turkey give back Constantinople?
Reply

- Qatada -
05-29-2007, 07:57 PM
August, i get your point. But if you look at todays times, you'll realise that the game is that 'you can't take over someones land.' And anyone who tries to do that, the US intervenes and says that this group is evil for doing that. Therefore i'm sure you see the double standards in regard to this situation.


Thanks for your input though.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-29-2007, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
MTAFFI, if you've seen Islamic history - you'll realise that when the Christians didn't allow the jews to enter this blessed land, it was the Muslims who actually allowed them in and gave them their rights. That's because this is our duty as muslims. You'll see that wherever Muslim rule was (The Ummaya Dynasty in Spain, The Turkish Ottomans etc), the jews settled there along with them, yet they never settled within a christian state. You know why? Because they feared persecution from the christians.
This could be in the past, however I wouldnt say that an Islamic state such as the ottoman empire was hardly fair to its non muslim inhabitants, however that is for another thread, and when i tried to create it, it was denied by the mods. Anyways, Muslims can and do live in Israel and they actually live their very peacefully. In fact, I am sure if the Palestinians wished for Palestine and Israel to be one state (Israel), Israel would gladly oblige.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
If the muslims are living within that state, then yes we have lost the land by the will of Allaah, and it will return as it has been prophecised.
Then by the will of Allah, the Palestinians have in fact lost the land that is Israel.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Even if the jews have authority there now, atleast they should be just, and treat the muslims with respect. The same way they have been safe under Muslim rule for many, many centuries - safe from the persecution they would face if living in another state.
They are very just to those that live on their land. Maybe not as just to those who wish to facelessly launch mortar attacks all day.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Yet that isn't the case at all, i have seen many videos on the brutality and hardship the muslims are facing within that country. And even if it is under Jewish rule, that doesn't mean they have the right to harm these people. Especially when it's these people themselves who were once in a similar situation;
War is brutal, I have seen many brutal things done by Muslims in Palestine and other places as well. Bottom line, war is brutal

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Remember! Moses said to his people: "Call to mind the favour of Allah to you when He delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: they set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons, and let your women-folk live: therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord."

[Qur'an 14:6]

Good quote but I doubt that the good lord cares who inhabits either of these lands, I am quite sure that he would rather see peace

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Yet it's so ironical that today it's these exact same people who are doing the same thing as Pharoah, they shoot little children who throw rocks, and then accuse Islaam of being terrorism.
I will not make an excuse for the Israelis, killing children is horrible, and I know it happens everyday. All I can say is what I said above, I believe that soon there will be a breaking point as to how many rockets they will allow to explode on their land and then I fear all men women and children in Palestine will die.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
But anyway, i don't need to cry out to anyone besides Allaah since He is the All Hearer, All Aware. And after hardship He grants ease, and He tests the believers the same way He tested the believers of the Children of Israel (Jacob/Ya'qub.)
Maybe the test is to see if we can live in peace, maybe we are failing miserably.
[/QUOTE]


Also Fi

I appreciate your post, but I dont feel as though you really responded to anything in my original post. But thank you as always for your input, you always speak intelligently and are good to speak with. Reps for you:)
Reply

August
05-29-2007, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
August, i get your point. But if you look at todays times, you'll realise that the game is that 'you can't take over someones land.' And anyone who tries to do that, the US intervenes and says that this group is evil for doing that. Therefore i'm sure you see the double standards in regard to this situation.
Sure, but the difference is the 'you can't take someones land' comes in when an invasion is launched, as in Sadaam invading Kuwait, not after an entirely new group of people has been living in a place for 60+ years. In certain situations, evicting the "conquorer" or "occupier" will do far more harm than good.
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islamirama
05-29-2007, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by August
Sure, but the difference is the 'you can't take someones land' comes in when an invasion is launched, as in Sadaam invading Kuwait, not after an entirely new group of people has been living in a place for 60+ years. In certain situations, evicting the "conquorer" or "occupier" will do far more harm than good.
Kuwait belonged to Iraq and Saddam had every right as the ruler to get that city back, just as china with it's province. Montreal wants to become independent of Canada but that gov't has every right to deny that right to them for the betterment of the nation. So does US if TX wants to be independent or what not. So lets not get on that topic.

As for Palestine, it was a nation full of people living there already. The west imposed another group of people on these people and violated their right to their lands. Then they gave these people to oppress the people whose land they by force took more and more with each aggression.

We have seen 50+yrs of occupation has done more harm than good. Sometimes it's best to pick up and leave, plenty of land in europe that can be annexed for these people.
Reply

Amadeus85
05-29-2007, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by August
No one's going to like this, but...

It doesn't matter who the land really belongs to. The reality is that the Jews are there now. The Isralies are in control, and no one is going to be able to push them out. If the Palestinians want peace, they will have to accept the permenant existence of Israel. Different people have lost their homelands all throughout history. Should the U.S. give all it's land back to the Indians? Should the Indians that Columbus met give the land they had back to the tribe they conquored it from? Should Turkey give back Constantinople?
You've got the point, if Jews should give back Palestina to Arabs, so Constantinople and northern Cyprus should be given back by Turks.
And as far as i know India and Northern Africa were conquered by muslims too.
Reply

Amadeus85
05-29-2007, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
. Sometimes it's best to pick up and leave, plenty of land in europe that can be annexed for these people.
So please pick up and leave Constanntinople and Cyprus as well. There are plenty of land in Asia that can be annexed for these people.
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- Qatada -
05-29-2007, 08:26 PM
Thanks for the response MTAFFI. I'd just like to state that i have seen many people including women and children get shot etc. which is a war crime in of itself, yet there not charged guilty - infact they're portrayed as heroes. I have also heard first hand experiences of muslims who went there and the hardships they faced even though they weren't attacking the army at all.

So i don't totally agree with the claim that it's for a peaceful co-existence, infact i believe that if they can enter the land and become 'rulers' over it already, and then change everything they want - kicking people out of their homes etc. Especially in todays age, then i believe there are double standards in many ways. And i also know that they are desperate to change many things because of an ulterior motive, especially in regard to the Jewish faith - regarding the Messiah [we know they reject Jesus son of Mary - the true Messiah, so most likely the Anti-Messiah] etc. I think they already believe that this is the '7th millenium' and many of the events taking place may soon come into pass. And only Allaah truelly knows best.



Maybe my posts are from a different angle since i like to look at the religious texts instead of the politics, which might be why we discuss things from different perspectives. But yeah, that makes the conversation interesting.


Thanks again.



Regards.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
05-29-2007, 08:26 PM
seriously lol this thread made me crack up especially lol,

you might aswell just call this:

muslims vs jews, 1 2 3 (ready?) FIGHT!
Reply

Philosopher
05-29-2007, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
So please pick up and leave Constanntinople and Cyprus as well. There are plenty of land in Asia that can be annexed for these people.
This argument is so futile it's not funny. As you are Christian, maybe you should go back to Nazareth and give up all of Europe, Australia, South America, and North America back to the gentiles??
Reply

August
05-29-2007, 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
And i also know that they are desperate to change many things because of an ulterior motive, especially in regard to the Jewish faith - regarding the Messiah [we know they reject Jesus son of Mary - the true Messiah, so most likely the Anti-Messiah] etc. I think they already believe that this is the '7th millenium' and many of the events taking place may soon come into pass.
I support Israel, but you are on to something, Fi Sabilillah. Some branches of evangelical Christianity very quietly believe that the existence of Israel will hasten the second coming of Christ.
Reply

Philosopher
05-29-2007, 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
seriously lol this thread made me crack up especially lol,

you might aswell just call this:

muslims vs jews, 1 2 3 (ready?) FIGHT!
The funny thing is, no Jew is in this thread. The Christians are debating because they feel Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy LMAO.
Reply

August
05-29-2007, 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
This argument is so futile it's not funny. As you are Christian, maybe you should go back to Nazareth and give up all of Europe, Australia, South America, and North America back to the gentiles??
That's the point he's making. It's futile to expect the Jews to leave Israel.
Reply

- Qatada -
05-29-2007, 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by August
I support Israel, but you are on to something, Fi Sabilillah. Some branches of evangelical Christianity very quietly believe that the existence of Israel will hasten the second coming of Christ.

We believe that the Anti-Messiah will come first and he will cause huge corruption on earth as a trial - pretending to first be a Prophet (Dajjaal in the arabic language means Imposter) and then pretending to be god on earth, and then Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) will come to fight him. Along with the true believers who worship God Alone. :)


I feel the events are near. The end times are amazing, and it's shocking since we're living within them times. We pray to Allaah/God Almighty to make us of the truelly guided, and upon the correct path. Ameen.



Regards.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
05-29-2007, 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
The funny thing is, no Jew is in this thread. The Christians are debating because they feel Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy LMAO.
LOL indeed thats quite funny ;D
Reply

Amadeus85
05-29-2007, 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
This argument is so futile it's not funny. As you are Christian, maybe you should go back to Nazareth and give up all of Europe, Australia, South America, and North America back to the gentiles??
It was my answer to Islamirama advise that Jews should go back to Europe.
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
05-29-2007, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Basically there will come a day when Israel will draw a line and declare a war against Palestine, and I am not talking about the fighters in Palestine, I am talking about every living person. Sadly I think that day is approaching (maybe within 5 years) and then the problem will be solved.
Basically your admitting Israel is a irresponsible power?:)

Nothing justifies ethnic cleansing and it's various levels of destruction resulting in enormous loss of innocent lives:

Massacre
Genocide
Holocaust

Nothing justifies this method

no matter what!
Reply

islamirama
05-29-2007, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
So please pick up and leave Constanntinople and Cyprus as well. There are plenty of land in Asia that can be annexed for these people.

Israeli jews are european jews, they can go back to europe and given a land for their living in peace. The palestinian Muslims, Christians, AND jews were happy before european jews were pushed onto them and their tiny land. Take back your european jews and you will find peace in the east.

As for a quick solution, have Israel return all the land it occupies beyond the mandated one, stop all blockades and checkpoints, tear down the wall, go back to the original amount of land given to them, dismantle all illegal settlements on palestinian lands, obey the 67+ resultions set forth by UN, try to rule only the land mandated to them and leave palestinians alone. That's the quick solution but lets' face the facts, the zionists wants all of it not just the land given to them stolen from palestinians. Do you see Israel and Palestine on the map or only Israel?
Reply

Amadeus85
05-29-2007, 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama

As for a quick solution, have Israel return all the land it occupies beyond the mandated one, stop all blockades and checkpoints, tear down the wall, go back to the original amount of land given to them, dismantle all illegal settlements on palestinian lands,
No terrorism- no wall.
No suicide attacks - no checkpoints.
Reply

- Qatada -
05-29-2007, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
No terrorism- no wall.
No suicide attacks - no checkpoints.

According to your opinion. :)
Reply

wilberhum
05-29-2007, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
No terrorism- no wall.
No suicide attacks - no checkpoints.
The terorism did not start for no reason. :skeleton:

Both sides have plenty of shame. :raging:

PS: And this comes form a person that some think of as a Jew loving, Muslim hater.
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
05-29-2007, 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
The terorism did not start for no reason. :skeleton:

Both sides have plenty of shame. :raging:

PS: And this comes form a person that some think of as a Jew loving, Muslim hater.
:sl:

the Defiant Dhimmi:D (i wonder how you did this in your profile)

:w:
Reply

wilberhum
05-29-2007, 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
:sl:

the Defiant Dhimmi:D (i wonder how you did this in your profile)

:w:
I guess you like “The Defiant Dhimmi”.
I thought it suited me well.

Any way, here’s how.


Go to User CP/Edit Profile.
Under Optional Information
You will see Custom User Title
That is where you change it.

Enjoy,
Wilber
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
05-29-2007, 09:41 PM
:sl:
Thanks alot:)
:w:
Reply

Zman
05-29-2007, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
so now since they cant win in war and have been conquered they choose to terrorize the winners

LOOOL...Thanks for today's comic relief, Taffi :thumbs_up

A handful of "militants" terrorizing", the mighty IDF :statisfie

This is the same Israeli military that has the conventional strength of the 22 Arab nations, put together.

The daily terror that is visited upon Palestinian civilians by the Israeli Death Forces, isn't actually terror, right?

I can't wait for your comic relief, for tomorrows episode :D
Reply

Amadeus85
05-29-2007, 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by Zman

LOOOL...Thanks for today's comic relief, Taffi :thumbs_up

A handful of "militants" terrorizing", the mighty IDF :statisfie

This is the same Israeli military that has the conventional strength of the 22 Arab nations, put together.

The daily terror that is visited upon Palestinian civilians by the Israeli Death Forces, isn't actually terror, right?

I can't wait for your comic relief, for tomorrows episode :D

Calling hamas members freedom fighters- this is a nice comic quote.:thumbs_up :thumbs_up
Reply

islamirama
05-29-2007, 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
No terrorism- no wall.
No suicide attacks - no checkpoints.
No israel - no terrorism
no oppression - no suicide

btw, sucidie is more common in iraq and afghan not Falesteen!

oh and why that stupid remark rather then admitting the facts?

have Israel return all the land it occupies beyond the mandated one, stop all blockades and checkpoints, tear down the wall, go back to the original amount of land given to them, dismantle all illegal settlements on palestinian lands, obey the 67+ resultions set forth by UN, try to rule only the land mandated to them and leave palestinians alone from state terrorism.
Reply

wilberhum
05-29-2007, 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
No israel - no terrorism
no oppression - no suicide

btw, sucidie is more common in iraq and afghan not Falesteen!
No terrorism and no suicide. Just like in the rest of the world. :skeleton:
Reply

Fishman
05-29-2007, 10:39 PM
:sl:
Isn't this argument pretty pointless? How on Earth can anybody expect to gain anything from it?
:w:
Reply

wilberhum
05-29-2007, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Isn't this argument pretty pointless? How on Earth can anybody expect to gain anything from it?
:w:
Nothing will ever be gained until Peace is the Priority.
Reply

islamirama
05-30-2007, 12:54 AM
Only ones rooting for Israel and it's war crimes and genocides are neo-cons and supporters of terrorism and injustice. At least those who have brains speak up against such injustice unlike you and your lacky US and other pathetic zioinst back kissers....

Originally Posted by wilberhum
No terrorism and no suicide. Just like in the rest of the world. :skeleton:

UK, Israel Architects Blast Occupation

IslamOnline.net & Newspapers

CAIRO — A group of renowned Israeli and British architects have urged fellow designers and planners from Israel and worldwide to live up to professional ethics and reject any project on the occupied Palestinian territories or face being accused of complicity in the oppression of Palestinians and occupation of their land, Israel's Haaretz newspaper reported Monday, May 28.

In a statement initiated by the British organization Architects and Planners for Justice in Palestine (APJP), the designers called on fellow professionals "to express their concern in each and every instance of unjust action in annexing Palestinian land, and the projects to be built on them."


The manifesto said Palestinian land has become so fragmented that a viable Palestinian State has been rendered impossible.


"The map of Palestine, for the indigenous Palestinians, has shrunk from being 97% of the land in 1917 to 44 % in 1947. Today only 13% of the former Palestinian lands are being recognized by Israeli unilateral 'convergence' policies, and that small part is being further divided by planning and architectural devices," it said.


The statement was signed by nearly 200 internationally-famed British and Israeli architects and academics.


They include architectural historian Charles Jencks; president of the Institute of Royal British Architects Jack Pringle; American sociologist Saskia Sassen; geographer Oren Yiftachel of Ben-Gurion University as well as Israeli Zvi Efrat, who heads the architecture department at the Bezalel Academy of Art and Design.


The APJP is a London-based independent pressure group that campaigns against the Israeli occupation.


It launched a boycott campaign two years ago against Israeli architects taking part in the construction of Jewish settlements.


Prior to the opening of the International Architecture Biennale in Venice last September, the organization tried to prevent the presentation of the Israeli exhibition "Life Saver: Typology of Commemoration in Israel."


Complicit


The statement said that accepting Israeli bids to build settlements or buildings on occupied Palestinian land would make Israeli and international architects "partners in social, political and economic oppression" of the Palestinians.


"Israeli architects and planners, knowingly or not, have become a part of this situation. Israeli settlements built after the 1967 War, considered illegal under international law, could not have been realized without their help," it read.
It said the architects are expected to live up to the profession's code of ethics and refrain from such unethical work.


"Professional ethics, long enshrined in architectural and planning codes, demand that we confront these unwelcome truths and not remain silent or complicit," it said.


"It is with this in mind that we are supporting particular campaigns that challenge this unprofessional conduct."


The London-based group cited old and new Israeli projects on the occupied Palestinian territories that preempt the boundaries of their long-awaited state.


"Since 1947 Israeli kibbutzim, towns and cities have been built over the ruins of Palestinian, villages, houses and heritage that were wiped from the map by a form of architectural erasure," it said.


"We oppose the building of such projects as the illegal settlements, check points, settler–only highways and above all the Separation Wall."
The international community regards all Jewish settlements, which are built on 40% of the West Bank, illegal.


Over the years, Israeli settlements have mushroomed in the West Bank where 270,000 Israeli settlers now live among some 2.5 million Palestinians.
Israel is also building a separation wall, a mix of electronic fences and concrete walls that will eventually snake some 900 kilometers (540 miles) along the West Bank and leave even larger swathes of its territory on the Israeli side.


Israel has spurned a landmark ruling by the International Court of Justice and a demand by the UN General Assembly to tear down the wall and compensate the Palestinians affected. Tel Aviv argues that wall is necessary for its protection.


But the Palestinians see the wall as a new land grab and an attempt to pre-empt the borders of their future state.
Reply

wilberhum
05-30-2007, 01:30 AM
islamirama
Ya, I know those perfect Palestinian have never done any thing wrong. :?
I still have my bridge for sale if you are interested. :D

As I said:
Nothing will ever be gained until Peace is the Priority.
and you have made it quite clear that for you Peace is not the priority.
No Isreal no terrorism. Da, ya a sure. :skeleton:
How much of the world can you see looking out of a window? :enough!:
Most everywhere there is a large number of Muslims there is war.
But then it is also true that Most everywhere there is a large number of <Insurt any group> there is war.
If it wasn't Israel there would just be another excuse. :omg:
Currently the Palestinian are proving that they can't even get along with themselves. :rollseyes

But ya, it is all Israel's fault. :raging:
Reply

islamirama
05-30-2007, 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
islamirama
Ya, I know those perfect Palestinian have never done any thing wrong. :?
I still have my bridge for sale if you are interested. :D

As I said:
and you have made it quite clear that for you Peace is not the priority.
No Isreal no terrorism. Da, ya a sure. :skeleton:
How much of the world can you see looking out of a window? :enough!:
Most everywhere there is a large number of Muslims there is war.
But then it is also true that Most everywhere there is a large number of <Insurt any group> there is war.
If it wasn't Israel there would just be another excuse. :omg:
Currently the Palestinian are proving that they can't even get along with themselves. :rollseyes

But ya, it is all Israel's fault. :raging:
and peace will never be a priority until israel is ready to ....


return all the land it occupies beyond the mandated one, stop all blockades and checkpoints, tear down the wall, go back to the original amount of land given to them, dismantle all illegal settlements on palestinian lands, obey the 67+ resultions set forth by UN, try to rule only the land mandated to them and leave palestinians alone from state terrorism.
Reply

wilberhum
05-30-2007, 03:37 AM
islamirama,
If you look back, you will see I always attack any saying it is one sided. It will take both to make peace. Israel has committed many atrocities. I am sickened by the US support of them. But that doesn't make the Palestinians totally innocent good guys. They have adopted hate as a way of life.

I don't hope for victory for either, but I hope for peace for both.
Reply

AzizMostafa
05-30-2007, 04:42 AM
http://typophile.com/node/30209?from...ts_per_page=50
Reply

wilberhum
05-30-2007, 05:12 AM
The Holocaust does not justify the taking of land from people who had nothing to do with it. You don't solve injustice by creating injustice for someone else.
But you can not turn back history and undo the Holocaust or undo the creation of Israel.
All the Israels are not going to get on a plane and leave. They are not going to give in to terrorism either.
So they can work for peace of keep killing each other. I sad to say they both have chose the latter.
Reply

Philosopher
05-30-2007, 08:15 AM
The Holocaust does not justify the taking of land from people who had nothing to do with it. You don't solve injustice by creating injustice for someone else.
But you can not turn back history and undo the Holocaust or undo the creation of Israel.
Agreed. The main reasons why the US supports Israel is because 1.) it is a democracy and 2.) it is allegedly a fulfillment of prophecy.

All the Israels are not going to get on a plane and leave. They are not going to give in to terrorism either.
So they can work for peace of keep killing each other. I sad to say they both have chose the latter.
Agreed. The problem is that since Israelis wont leave, terrorism wont leave later. Killing a bunch of insurgents does not comprise a victory in the war against terror. It is an undeniable fact that Israeli occupation is fuels worldwide terrorism. So either Israel gives up Jerusalem or we will see more terrorist attacks. Whats really ****ed up is the fact that Americans are doing all the dirty work for Israel.
Reply

Gangster No.1
05-30-2007, 08:40 AM
:sl: :D :thumbs_up

Very Intresting Posts.

However,lol.

Palestian belongs to the muslims, no doubt!
Yep the jews aint going to move an inch,
therefore there will ALWAYS be violance there!

Untill the palestinians get the land, there will be TOTAL devestation, especially for muslims (muslims are brutally killed!).

The jews are COWARDS in israel, becuase they need MASSIVE support from the USA, and that is the only way they are in controll.

BUT

remember the muslims will ALWAYS have Allah.
and yes at the moment the israeils have the upperhand, they are incontroll, but just as the israelies use there stratigies to win there cause the muslims palestians have there'z.

Muslims there can only use there only means off weapons such as, STONES, ROCKETS, MARTYRDOM!

SO WHAT?

I personally think, ''So What''.

becuase that is the strategie for NOW.

Inshallah as time passes, WE will have OUR land. and remeber that fellow people! just remmeber! i personally gurantee you.

Allah tests ALL muslims, and Allah wil give justice to muslims, and yes we will HAVE our land back!:thumbs_up
Reply

beespreeteam
05-30-2007, 09:41 AM
so, who here has done a course in the history of palestine and israel?

i have :D
Reply

Gangster No.1
05-30-2007, 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by beespreeteam
so, who here has done a course in the history of palestine and israel?

i have :D
What you want a medal?
nah messin.lol

Thats good!
:D
Reply

islamirama
05-30-2007, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
islamirama,
If you look back, you will see I always attack any saying it is one sided. It will take both to make peace. Israel has committed many atrocities. I am sickened by the US support of them. But that doesn't make the Palestinians totally innocent good guys. They have adopted hate as a way of life.

I don't hope for victory for either, but I hope for peace for both.
It's good to know you not all pro zioinst then. The hatred in palestinians is totoally jusitfied, you would be a fool not to hate after the hell you go thru. Palestinians have mostly been victims and israelis have been aggressors. Even if they both are to exit together, israel has a long way to come before that is even possible. At the very least, israel has to do as I said before...

return all the land it occupies beyond the mandated one, stop all blockades and checkpoints, tear down the wall, go back to the original amount of land given to them, dismantle all illegal settlements on palestinian lands, obey the 67+ resultions set forth by UN, try to rule only the land mandated to them and leave palestinians alone from state terrorism.
Reply

Cognescenti
05-30-2007, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by beespreeteam
so, who here has done a course in the history of palestine and israel?

i have :D
Who taught it? :)
Reply

Cognescenti
05-30-2007, 02:54 PM
Here is the likely original range of Neanderthal. Phew....looks like they may not have a claim on the Holy Land.



On the other hand, Homo ergaster may have made it to Georgia as much as 1.7 M yr ago. As they likely originated in Africa, it is likely they crossed the Sinai and Palestine/Israel (or whatever it was called then..."uggghmmmugah" perhaps). Let's hope they didn't keep their property deeds or we would have a fight over who is most closely related to H. ergaster.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/745080.stm
Reply

MTAFFI
05-30-2007, 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
Basically your admitting Israel is a irresponsible power?:)

Nothing justifies ethnic cleansing and it's various levels of destruction resulting in enormous loss of innocent lives:

Massacre
Genocide
Holocaust

Nothing justifies this method

no matter what!
I am not admitting nor am I attempting to justify anything, I am just stating the obvious. Palestine and Israel are both at fault for acting like 5th century heathens who have nothing better to do than kill each other day in and day out. But the fact of the matter is Israel has a far far superior military, and Palestine is becoming increasingly aggressive towards Israel and Israel just like any other nation will reach a breaking point. It wont be ethnic cleansing, it will just be war with the enemy, and many will die and Israel will no doubt be victorious. The sooner the Palestinians recognize this and realize that peace is the only way the better off they will be.
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
05-30-2007, 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Here is the likely original range of Neanderthal. Phew....looks like they may not have a claim on the Holy Land.

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Images/neanderthal_map.gif

On the other hand, Homo ergaster may have made it to Georgia as much as 1.7 M yr ago. As they likely originated in Africa, it is likely they crossed the Sinai and Palestine/Israel (or whatever it was called then..."uggghmmmugah" perhaps). Let's hope they didn't keep their property deeds or we would have a fight over who is most closely related to H. ergaster.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/745080.stm
:D According to Antropologists and Geneticists the Neanderthal simply died out:D and the modern groups of people living in those areas they inhabited in Paleolithic times IIRC have no lineages derived from them so i guess that's solved!

Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I am not admitting nor am I attempting to justify anything, I am just stating the obvious. Palestine and Israel are both at fault for acting like 5th century heathens who have nothing better to do than kill each other day in and day out. But the fact of the matter is Israel has a far far superior military, and Palestine is becoming increasingly aggressive towards Israel and Israel just like any other nation will reach a breaking point. It wont be ethnic cleansing, it will just be war with the enemy, and many will die and Israel will no doubt be victorious. The sooner the Palestinians recognize this and realize that peace is the only way the better off they will be.
The future scenario you painted was quite disturbing IMO, wether Israel reaches a breaking point or not, no nation should be allowed to use conventional weapons in a non-conventional war. Palestine doesn't have a standing army therefore a few skirmishes between Palestinian fighters and the IDF doesn't equal ''your allowed to use F-16's and Merkava's'' to combat them. If Israel does restort to heavy weaponry and decides to use them in a all out war to fight Palestinian fighters and in the process slaughters thousands of innocent civilian lives they should be isolated the way Iran today is being Isolated by the so-called International community and face heavy sanctions and there commanders should be held responsible in The Hague.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-30-2007, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
The future scenario you painted was quite disturbing IMO, wether Israel reaches a breaking point or not, no nation should be allowed to use conventional weapons in a non-conventional war. Palestine doesn't have a standing army therefore a few skirmishes between Palestinian fighters and the IDF doesn't equal ''your allowed to use F-16's and Merkava's'' to combat them. If Israel does restort to heavy weaponry and decides to use them in a all out war to fight Palestinian fighters and in the process slaughters thousands of innocent civilian lives they should be isolated the way Iran today is being Isolated by the so-called International community and face heavy sanctions and there commanders should be held responsible in The Hague.

I agree with you that the scenario is incredibly disturbing, I hope that it never comes to be, however you mention conventional and non-conventional war, this intrigues me. Do you believe that just because a nation is smaller that they can determine the type of war that is fought because they dont have as good of weapons as their enemy? I believe that it is every nations right to protect its citizens, through whatever means necessary. If Israel were to never follow through with the scenario I mentioned, when would the war ever end? Should generation after generation of people have to be at war because of this ridiculous situation?

As I said before the situation with Israel is escalating and there will be a breaking point, if the government of Palestine doesnt take responsibility but doesnt stop it and neither do the people of Palestine then all are equally guilty. Their only real chance is a truce, and I would bet they will never even try for it. If Israel were to end this war through means of heavy force, could you blame them? Daily they say "Stop launching rockets and we will stop bombing and bulldozing" does it ever stop, no so how many options are left on the table? It is very sad and again I will say I hope to God this doesnt happen
Reply

islamirama
05-30-2007, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
As I said before the situation with Israel is escalating and there will be a breaking point, if the government of Palestine doesnt take responsibility but doesnt stop it and neither do the people of Palestine then all are equally guilty. Their only real chance is a truce, and I would bet they will never even try for it. If Israel were to end this war through means of heavy force, could you blame them? Daily they say "Stop launching rockets and we will stop bombing and bulldozing" does it ever stop, no so how many options are left on the table? It is very sad and again I will say I hope to God this doesnt happen
The rockets are Retaliation, they are REaction to the israeli Actions. When you oppress people to brink of desperation,do you think they will sit quitely and let you kill them? Even if both people were to live in peace, it won't be possible till Israel at the very least does as i suggested wilherm...


return all the land it occupies beyond the mandated one
,
stop all blockades and checkpoints,
tear down the wall,
go back to the original amount of land given to them,
dismantle all illegal settlements on palestinian lands,
obey the 67+ resultions set forth by UN
,
try to rule only the land mandated to them and leave palestinians alone from their state terrorism.
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
05-30-2007, 08:36 PM
MTAFFI i have to agree with Islamirama's quote

Past non-Palestinian regional powers played with the Palestian child's destiny for their own interests and when that failed they ignored the Palestinian plight. It is in the Israelis best interest if they returned to their pre-war borders and Palestinians not ''regional powers'' were allowed to decide their own destiny and make no mistake ''peace'' is what the ordinary Palestinian child wants as does his Parents but daily Humiliation is not something they will accept quitely
Reply

MTAFFI
05-30-2007, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
MTAFFI i have to agree with Islamirama's quote

Past non-Palestinian regional powers played with the Palestian child's destiny for their own interests and when that failed they ignored the Palestinian plight. It is in the Israelis best interest if they returned to their pre-war borders and Palestinians not ''regional powers'' were allowed to decide their own destiny and make no mistake ''peace'' is what the ordinary Palestinian child wants as does his Parents but daily Humiliation is not something they will accept quitely
I think their borders were lost in a war, were they not? Therefore their borders are what they wish. The attacks from the palestinians out number the Israeli response everyday, without fail. If they would stop with the rockets, Israel would have to stop with the bombs and demolishion
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
05-30-2007, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I think their borders were lost in a war, were they not? Therefore their borders are what they wish.
So the borders of the United States today extend beyond Canada's(Alaska incl.) side and the Mexican side?(Bases excl.)

If let's say in the future Israel's military establisment completely disintergrated and Palestine managed to get the upperhand i doubt the UN,US etc etc would allow the Palestinians to re-draw the borders as they see fit imo

The attacks from the palestinians out number the Israeli response everyday, without fail. If they would stop with the rockets, Israel would have to stop with the bombs and demolishion
If they returned to their pre-war borders, then we would see a shift towards peace most definitely!
Reply

wilberhum
05-31-2007, 12:01 AM
If they returned to their pre-war borders, then we would see a shift towards peace most definitely!
The objective of all the Palestinian Militants is the discruction of Israel.
As long as that is there objective, peace will not occure.
Moving the borders will just bring the Militants closer to those they want to kill. :raging:
Reply

islamirama
05-31-2007, 02:04 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
The objective of all the Palestinian Militants is the discruction of Israel.
As long as that is there objective, peace will not occure.
Moving the borders will just bring the Militants closer to those they want to kill. :raging:
look at the statistics again and then tell me who is being killed more :raging:


you want peace, then give others a reason to even think about peace, grabbing them by the throat with a gun to their head wont' convince them!
Reply

August
05-31-2007, 02:12 AM
I've seen a few people say that Israel should return to it's borders according to the original partition, which would bring peace. History says that that won't work. Israel used to occupy the Sinai and Lebanon, peace didn't come. They've even begun to dismantle some settlements, "land for peace." No peace yet. The millitants won't stop until Israel is destroyed. Whether or not Israel should have been placed where it is is debatable, however the current Isralies were mostly not born when Israel was founded, they are defending the only home they know.
Reply

wilberhum
05-31-2007, 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama
look at the statistics again and then tell me who is being killed more :raging:


you want peace, then give others a reason to even think about peace, grabbing them by the throat with a gun to their head wont' convince them!
You can't get anything right, can you? Who said anything about who has done more killing? You just want to throw off the facts. Another "your momma is uglier than my momma" stunts you like to pull. :?

The fact remains, Hamas and many others have a stated objective of destroying Israel. :raging:

You can sugar coat it any way you want. You can use any logic you want to justify it. :skeleton:

Peace is not there objective!
Reply

KAding
05-31-2007, 09:17 AM
Originally Posted by Sinbad
Who has the right to the land? Israelians or Palestinians?
They should share it.

Only viable solution at the moment IMHO: segregate, build big walls between the communities, deescalate and hope that in a few decades some of the hate on either side will have diminished. Bah, I've become a cynic :(.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-31-2007, 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
If they returned to their pre-war borders, then we would see a shift towards peace most definitely!
I am not sure I believe that
Reply

MTAFFI
05-31-2007, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
The objective of all the Palestinian Militants is the discruction of Israel.
As long as that is there objective, peace will not occure.
Moving the borders will just bring the Militants closer to those they want to kill. :raging:
this is exactly what I believe would happen
Reply

islamirama
05-31-2007, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
You can't get anything right, can you? Who said anything about who has done more killing? You just want to throw off the facts. Another "your momma is uglier than my momma" stunts you like to pull. :?

The fact remains, Hamas and many others have a stated objective of destroying Israel. :raging:

You can sugar coat it any way you want. You can use any logic you want to justify it. :skeleton:

Peace is not there objective!
It is you who can't get it thru your head. Look at facts not what someone "wants" to do. The facts stand for themselves. Palestinians have surffered and zionists have oppressed for the last 50+years.

The fact remains hamas will continue for the freedom of Palestinians and is a legtimate resistance group despite how many terrorists countries of the west call it otherwise.

The fact remains that zionists have not obeyed to one UN resolutions and continues to oppress people more and more without anyone speaking up against it.

The fact remains zionists on PM sharon massacred 2 refuge camps and was called a hero of the zionists people.

The fact remains zionists invite any jew from anywhere in the world and gives them citizenship and if a native palestinian leaves his land (for education or whatever) and does not return within given time (very short window) then he looses his citizenship.

The fact remains that zionists have over 10,000 palestinians in jails, mostly women and children, and over million refuges kicked to the borders of egypt and jorden.

The fact remains that zionists have built over 200 illegal jews only settlements on stolen palestinian land.

The fact remains that zionists are trying to kill or kick out all palestinians so palestine becomes jews only state.

It is they who don't want peace and it is they who have blocked every resolution and peace plans set forth by the gov'ts and rejected every peace plan that doesn't fit their agenda.

it is you who is trying to sugar coat the facts. so i suggest you go live in palestine one week and see how well you gentile are treated by the zionist terrorists.
Reply

rav
05-31-2007, 03:06 PM
Shalom [Peace],

It is definitely reasonable for the world to expect Israel to comply with UN resolutions; however, it must be done in unison with the Palestinians. If only one side complies with the resolutions, then not only is it unfair, but it will bring about catastrophe for the side that does comply, since the other did not.

Pro-Arab sources often claim that UNSCR 242 requires Israel to withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza, and other areas. This is not true. In summary, here is what UNSCR 242 actually means:

1. UNSCR 242 calls on all parties to the conflict to negotiate a solution

2. It anticipates that Israel will withdraw to secure borders (not specified in the resolution) in exchange for peace guarantees from the Arab parties

The Resolution was carefully worded to require that Israel withdraw from "territories" rather than "the territories." This construction, leaving out "the," was intentional, because it was not envisioned that Israel would withdraw from all the territories, thereby returning to the vulnerable pre-war borders. And any withdrawal would be such as to create "secure and recognized boundaries."

How do we know this is what was intended by the resolution? There is a long record of public statements about how the resolution was negotiated and what was intended for it to accomplish.

In an article, referenced among the Sources at the bottom of the page, by Eugene V. Rostow (Distinguished Fellow at the United States Institute of Peace, and former US Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs), the intent is explained in considerable detail. Rostow was one of the US officials involved in drafting 242 so he knows first hand what was and was not intended. He states:

Resolution 242, which as undersecretary of state for political affairs between 1966 and 1969 I helped produce, calls on the parties to make peace and allows Israel to administer the territories it occupied in 1967 until "a just and lasting peace in the Middle East" is achieved.

It was widely recognized that the balancing of the ideas of a territorial return with "secure and recognized boundaries" for Israel would mean that Israel would not be forced to withdraw from 100% of the land captured in the June 1967 war. There is a dispute between the British-American understanding of the wording of the resolution and the French understanding of the wording, but in the United Nations the binding version of any resolution is the version that is submitted to the voting body. In this case, the English version takes precedence over the French version.

In addition the Arab world seems to contradict itself when they react to the “occupation” of the west bank. A perfect example:

In April 1950, Jordan annexed eastern Jerusalem (dividing the city for the first time in its history) and the "West Bank" areas in historical Judea and Samaria that Trans-Jordan had occupied by military force in 1948 (Jordan changed its name to Trans-Jordan in April 1949). On April 24, 1950, the Jordan House of Deputies and House of Notables, in a joint session, adopted a Resolution making the West Bank and Jerusalem part of Jordan. This act had no basis in international law; it was only the de facto act of Trans-Jordan as a conquerer. The other Arab countries denied formal recognition of the Jordanian move and only two governments - Great Britain and Pakistan - formally recognized the Jordanian takeover. The rest of the world, including the United States, never did.

After the 1948 War for Independence and the Jordanian takeover, the Palestinian Arabs never attempted to establish an independent state in the territory alloted to them by the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan. They cooperated with its unilateral annexation by Jordan, becoming part of Jordan's political system. Across the barbed wire that marked the dividing line, Jordanian East Jerusalem was not made the capital, even for its Palestinian residents, in 19 years of Jordanian rule. The capital remained in Amman. There was no outcry of claims of "Palestinian" identity being submerged by Jordan.

The reason there was no Arab outrage over the annexation was because Jordan is a state whose ethnic majority is Palestinian Arabs. On the other hand, the Palestinians of Jordan are disenfranchised by the ruling Hashemite minority. Despite this fact, in the years following the annexation the Palestinians displayed no interest in achieving "self-determination" in Hashemite Jordan. It is only the presence of Jews, apparently, that incites this claim.

The Jordanian "occupation" of the West Bank was very abusive of the rights of Jews and Christians, or any resident of Israel. During the 1948-1967 period of its occupation, Jordan permitted terrorists to launch raids into Israel. Jewish and muslim residents of Israel were not permitted to visit their Holy Places in East Jerusalem. Christians, too, were discriminated against. In 1958, Jordanian legislation required all members of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre to adopt Jordanian citizenship. In 1965, Christian institutions were forbidden to acquire any land or rights in or near Jerusalem. In 1966, Christian schools were compelled to close on Fridays instead of Sundays, customs privileges of Christian religious institutions were abolished. Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.

Therefore both sides of UN resolutions must be followed by both sides. A perfect example of where the Arab side failed to do such was when the Palestinians signed the Oslo II agreement, they promised to "ensure free access to, respect the ways of worship in, and not make any changes to, the Jewish holy sites" on land given up by Israel. [They made the same promise in the Gaza-Jericho accord in 1994 and the Hebron accord in 1997.] Among the listed sites: the venerable "Peace Upon Israel" (shalom al yisrael) synagogue in Jericho and the yeshiva at Joseph's Tomb in Nablus. Today, neither exists. In October, Palestinians burned down the synagogue. They smashed Joseph's Tomb to rubble and trampled its holy books, and announced that a mosque would be built on the site.

Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
05-31-2007, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
It is you who can't get it thru your head. Look at facts not what someone "wants" to do. The facts stand for themselves. Palestinians have surffered and zionists have oppressed for the last 50+years.

The fact remains hamas will continue for the freedom of Palestinians and is a legtimate resistance group despite how many terrorists countries of the west call it otherwise.

The fact remains that zionists have not obeyed to one UN resolutions and continues to oppress people more and more without anyone speaking up against it.

The fact remains zionists on PM sharon massacred 2 refuge camps and was called a hero of the zionists people.

The fact remains zionists invite any jew from anywhere in the world and gives them citizenship and if a native palestinian leaves his land (for education or whatever) and does not return within given time (very short window) then he looses his citizenship.

The fact remains that zionists have over 10,000 palestinians in jails, mostly women and children, and over million refuges kicked to the borders of egypt and jorden.

The fact remains that zionists have built over 200 illegal jews only settlements on stolen palestinian land.

The fact remains that zionists are trying to kill or kick out all palestinians so palestine becomes jews only state.

It is they who don't want peace and it is they who have blocked every resolution and peace plans set forth by the gov'ts and rejected every peace plan that doesn't fit their agenda.

it is you who is trying to sugar coat the facts. so i suggest you go live in palestine one week and see how well you gentile are treated by the zionist terrorists.
The fact remains, Hamas has no interest in peace. As long as there is Hamas and the like, there will not be peace.
But then Israel isn't interested in peace either.
Reply

arabookworm
05-31-2007, 11:18 PM
Sure the israelis were there hundreds of years ago, and the holocaust happened, but that has nothing to do with the palestinians that live there now.

watch this vid.
It's really good.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VKQqItZu4Is
Reply

arabookworm
05-31-2007, 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I would say Israel has the right to all of that land really, the land was conquered just as the people living in the land was conquered. Then Israel fought its own war with the surrounding nations and won again, they obviously have all rights to the land, after all, the land doesnt really belong to either of these groups "originally"... who really knows for a fact who was there originally anyways? Not only that but who cares?! Nearly every piece of land in the world has been conquered or has conquered others to establish its boundaries. The problem in Palestine is the "militant islam" mind set, there is no government really so the people that fight Israel, fight like cowards and hide amongst "civilians" (if there is such a thing in palestine) and launch rockets at random targets. Basically these people need to recognize defeat, if this was an all out war (which it already was) these people would lose (as they already did once) so now since they cant win in war and have been conquered they choose to terrorize the winners until they give up the land (which they never will). Basically there will come a day when Israel will draw a line and declare a war against Palestine, and I am not talking about the fighters in Palestine, I am talking about every living person. Sadly I think that day is approaching (maybe within 5 years) and then the problem will be solved. It is Israels land and unless the Palestinians quit launching rockets, it will eventually all be Israels land.
since no one knows who was there originally, then why do the Jews have the right to come back?:D
Reply

arabookworm
05-31-2007, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
In Israel live, work, study about 1 million muslim Arabs.
Arabs have their own political parties in Knesset.
Lately one Arab became a minister in Israel's goverment.
Arabs living in Israel dont have to carry weapons like Jews living among Palestinians.
They can vote and worship like normal, equal citizens.
Israel even tolerates those Israeli Arabs who openly support Hamas or Hesbullah.
So it is not so bad as you think for Arabs living in Israel.
And about those who live in West Bank and Gaza...I am sure that without terroristic attacks there would be no wall, no patrols, no controls..
When someone makes a suicide attack he cant cry after that his fellows are controled by army.
and Palestinians can't marry israelis, can't move freely, and even those with israeli citizenship are discriminated against by jewish citizens in daily life.
Reply

arabookworm
05-31-2007, 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by August
No one's going to like this, but...

It doesn't matter who the land really belongs to. The reality is that the Jews are there now. The Isralies are in control, and no one is going to be able to push them out. If the Palestinians want peace, they will have to accept the permenant existence of Israel. Different people have lost their homelands all throughout history. Should the U.S. give all it's land back to the Indians? Should the Indians that Columbus met give the land they had back to the tribe they conquored it from? Should Turkey give back Constantinople?
It has been too long for those to be fixed, but if you know that something wrong is going on now, shouldn't you at least try to fix it? and anyway, I don't think that they have to give back the land. I think they should allow all the refugees to come back and have one shared state, where everyone is free, and there are no walls or checkpoints.
Reply

arabookworm
05-31-2007, 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
This argument is so futile it's not funny. As you are Christian, maybe you should go back to Nazareth and give up all of Europe, Australia, South America, and North America back to the gentiles??
since we all started out somewhere in subsaharan africa, we should just leave every other place in the world and go live there. jeez.
Reply

arabookworm
05-31-2007, 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
No terrorism- no wall.
No suicide attacks - no checkpoints.
no zionists, no resistance
Reply

arabookworm
06-01-2007, 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by beespreeteam
so, who here has done a course in the history of palestine and israel?

i have :D
I want to take one once I get into college.
It'll be my idea of a good time.

debates:statisfie
Reply

wilberhum
06-01-2007, 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by arabookworm
no zionists, no resistance
Just inter-fighting and killing.
Reply

rav
06-01-2007, 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by arabookworm
no zionists, no resistance
Shalom, I must say, What logic! What if I were to make the claim, no Palestine, no "opression" as you label it? The logic is faulty. The situation is that both sides exist. Every action will recieve a reaction. When a suicide bombing by Hamas blows up a pre-school bus, and he crossed through the land at a certain area, the reaction will be, that area will have a wall built.

and even those with israeli citizenship are discriminated against by jewish citizens in daily life.
Mere propaganda, Israeli-Arabs receive more rights and live better lives than they would in half of the arab countries. A poll was taken in the hebrew newspapers, and they agreed. They elect officials to make everyday descions in the state.
Reply

north_malaysian
06-01-2007, 04:14 AM
Maybe we should give that land to those islanders who will lost their homes due to the Global Warming...

* P/S: I'm sick looking at the way that Palestinians fighting each others. No wonder God denies them a country. :raging:
Reply

guyabano
06-01-2007, 09:51 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Maybe we should give that land to those islanders who will lost their homes due to the Global Warming...

* P/S: I'm sick looking at the way that Palestinians fighting each others. No wonder God denies them a country. :raging:
That's what I always thought, but never had the guts to say. Instead of trying to lead useless wars they should invest the money they get in cultivating soil and produce food for their people.
It's always amazing to see, that Palestinians and Israelis live together in the 'same' country, and then compare what both reached. Israelis eat juicy oranges while Palestinians still bite the dust.

Stop to complain and start to do something, my Goodness !
Reply

islamirama
06-01-2007, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
That's what I always thought, but never had the guts to say. Instead of trying to lead useless wars they should invest the money they get in cultivating soil and produce food for their people.
It's always amazing to see, that Palestinians and Israelis live together in the 'same' country, and then compare what both reached. Israelis eat juicy oranges while Palestinians still bite the dust.

Stop to complain and start to do something, my Goodness !

cultivate what????????????????????????????






and coexist with who????????????



Reply

MTAFFI
06-01-2007, 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama

cultivate what????????????????????????????




and coexist with who????????????



always some excuse
Reply

MTAFFI
06-01-2007, 02:44 PM
did anyone ever read the butter battle book by doctor suess when they were a kid? I was reading it to my daughter the other night and that book could easily be related to current events. The book doesnt have an ending, just a blank white page

(I think it was actually written about the cold war)
Reply

islamirama
06-01-2007, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
always some excuse
so you think the pictures are fake and lieing?

always in denial....
Reply

MTAFFI
06-01-2007, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
so you think the pictures are fake and lieing?

always in denial....
did i say excuse or fake? I am pretty sure I said excuse, so I dont think there is any denial here

however if you would like to bring up the authenticity of those pictures it appears as though they are coming from some pretty unreliable sources. That picture of Rosie up there looks pretty real too doesnt it? Or are you just in denial

Anyways none of this (including your pics) have anything to do with the fact that the Israelis, as mentioned above, are eating fresh fruit while the Palestinians are eating dirt.... hmmm... maybe if these palestinian groups took as much time to plant some seeds as they do to launch mortar attacks all day their country would look like such a dump, let me guess, it is the israelis fault right? Yeah I know, and they are backed by the west and we are all evil Kuffar, I know, and Muslims are the only people going to heaven and everyone else is condemned to hell, yeah yeah yeah, tell me about it. Well let me tell you something, if these people quit looking at the rest of the world for their problems and quit blaming EVERYONE else and taking no responsibility or blame themselves, maybe, just maybe they would remove themselves from their archaic state of life, however we will never no that since they will never try it

(by the way take a look at that second photo and the shadows, anything strange about that?)
Reply

guyabano
06-01-2007, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
...it is the israelis fault right? Yeah I know, and they are backed by the west and we are all evil Kuffar, I know, and Muslims are the only people going to heaven and everyone else is condemned to hell, yeah yeah yeah, tell me about it.
Yes, the red thread wandering through (nearby) all topics. :raging:

@islamirama
Listen, nobody is against muslims here. Get that right. It's just, we want to pass you the message to start to do something useful to your country instead of just know how to trigger a kassam rocket. And guess what, the jews certainly even give you the seeds to plant fruits and vegetables.
Reply

islamirama
06-01-2007, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
did i say excuse or fake? I am pretty sure I said excuse, so I dont think there is any denial here

however if you would like to bring up the authenticity of those pictures it appears as though they are coming from some pretty unreliable sources. That picture of Rosie up there looks pretty real too doesnt it? Or are you just in denial

Anyways none of this (including your pics) have anything to do with the fact that the Israelis, as mentioned above, are eating fresh fruit while the Palestinians are eating dirt.... hmmm... maybe if these palestinian groups took as much time to plant some seeds as they do to launch mortar attacks all day their country would look like such a dump, let me guess, it is the israelis fault right? Yeah I know, and they are backed by the west and we are all evil Kuffar, I know, and Muslims are the only people going to heaven and everyone else is condemned to hell, yeah yeah yeah, tell me about it. Well let me tell you something, if these people quit looking at the rest of the world for their problems and quit blaming EVERYONE else and taking no responsibility or blame themselves, maybe, just maybe they would remove themselves from their archaic state of life, however we will never no that since they will never try it

(by the way take a look at that second photo and the shadows, anything strange about that?)
when you have zionists bulldozing over 100yr old olive trees and the livelihood of the palestinians, doesn't make much sense to plant seeds. It makes more sense to plant bombs and uproot the terrorists and their occupation, only then will they have a better chance of living and peace.

The original jews and christians will go to heaven as well as they followed the true teachings of the Messengers. The later generations all deviated and changed their books, what right do they have to go to heaven when they went against the Creator of the heavens?

Not all kuffars are evil, just the ones you support who have are oppressive and unjustice and enjoy their war mongering way and plundering the lands of the weak. Let's see these spineless kuffars try something against china or russia or other super power.

Originally Posted by guyabano

@islamirama
Listen, nobody is against muslims here. Get that right. It's just, we want to pass you the message to start to do something useful to your country instead of just know how to trigger a kassam rocket. And guess what, the jews certainly even give you the seeds to plant fruits and vegetables.

Look at those pics again and tell me with a straight face that jews give seeds to plant. Don't make me laugh!
Reply

MTAFFI
06-01-2007, 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
when you have zionists bulldozing over 100yr old olive trees and the livelihood of the palestinians, doesn't make much sense to plant seeds. It makes more sense to plant bombs and uproot the terrorists and their occupation, only then will they have a better chance of living and peace.
Ask yourself why they are bulldozing.. they bulldoze to keep these people far enough away from their cities so that rockets cannot reach, seems to me if they stopped planting bombs and tried to have a chance at living in peace they could allow some seeds to grow
Originally Posted by islamirama
The original jews and christians will go to heaven as well as they followed the true teachings of the Messengers. The later generations all deviated and changed their books, what right do they have to go to heaven when they went against the Creator of the heavens?
What right do you have to make any assumptions about another persons religion. You cannot prove anyone changed the bible, you can prove it has been interpreted differently, but you cannot prove that the teachings are any different than they were when Jesus was around. Also you should know that Mohammed did not write the Quran either, so how do you know his original teachings were written down correctly? You dont, you only believe, same with all religions, the difference is you for whatever reason believe your religion is better than everyone elses. Anyone can make it to heaven no matter what his/her religion is, as long they they believe in God and what they believe to be his word
Originally Posted by islamirama
Not all kuffars are evil, just the ones you support who have are oppressive and unjustice and enjoy their war mongering way and plundering the lands of the weak. Let's see these spineless kuffars try something against china or russia or other super power.
Here we go again with your mindless assumptions, I dont support who you think I do, I dont support Israel, but I dont support Palestine either, there is equal fault and equal stupidity there. As for these "Spineless" Kuffar, perhaps you should listen to Pres. Putin's comments yesterday, indicating the US is starting another arms race with Russia. Or maybe you forget that these "spineless" Kuffar already brought Russia to its knees once, or maybe you forget the "spineless" kuffar made China what it is today and could also destroy it. However do to these countries interest in diplomacy and joint interests in peace, we dont have to worry about war with them.

Originally Posted by islamirama
Look at those pics again and tell me with a straight face that jews give seeds to plant. Don't make me laugh!
Look at the shadows again in the second picture and tell me what makes you laugh
Reply

- Qatada -
06-01-2007, 04:46 PM
MTAFFI, do you really think that ALL the Palestinians are working on throwing rockets at Israel? Do you think ALL of them are working on keeping the land for themselves, even though they had the original right to it?


Regarding the religion issue, you yourself as a christian should know that the christians say that those who don't believe in Jesus son of Mary's 'sacrifice' will be in the hellfire. So don't be amazed if we were to say that those who don't worship God Alone and accept His Messengers' arrogantly will be in the fire.


Anyway, i'm going to close the thread since the arguments are going in circles.
Reply

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