Off topic posts moved from "Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible"

[Balthasar21]

Yes

El's Holy Qur'aan Chapter Two , Verses One - Four ( Revealed in the year 624 - 626 A.D. ) Verse 266, 632 Revealed In Medina .
Verse 1 . Adam - the Shadow Hour of Power ; Muhammad the first and the last newsbearers , of the seed of Adam . Verse 2 . That Book is a scriptures no doubt about that ; inside of it there is leading calmness to those who tremble . Verse 3 . These are they who are faithful to what is unseen , and they get up to perform salutation as worship ; and of the things We, ([ We Not He ] Eloheem , Anunnaqi ) provided for them , they share willingly . Verse 4 . These are they who are faithful to that was send down to you ( Muhammad ) , And what was sent down before your time ; ( that is the other scriptures and tablets ) , and in Al Akhir - The End , they will certainly be prosperous .

[MustafaMc]

Post # 35

Yes

El's Holy Qur'aan Chapter Two , Verses One - Four ( Revealed in the year 624 - 626 A.D. ) Verse 266, 632 Revealed In Medina .
Verse 1 . Adam - the Shadow Hour of Power ; Muhammad the first and the last newsbearers , of the seed of Adam . Verse 2 . That Book is a scriptures no doubt about that ; inside of it there is leading calmness to those who tremble . Verse 3 . These are they who are faithful to what is unseen , and they get up to perform salutation as worship ; and of the things We, ([ We Not He ] Eloheem , Anunnaqi ) provided for them , they share willingly . Verse 4 . These are they who are faithful to that was send down to you ( Muhammad ) , And what was sent down before your time ; ( that is the other scriptures and tablets ) , and in Al Akhir - The End , they will certainly be prosperous .

What book are you quoting from? Is "El's" the NOI version of the Quran?

From Malik translation into English:

Sura 2 ayat 1 Alif Lam M'im.

2 This is The Book in which there is no doubt. It is a guide for those who are God conscious,

3 who believe in the Unseen, who establish Salah and spend in charity out of what We have provided for their sustenance;

4 who believe in this Revelation which is sent to you (O Muhammad) and the Revelations which were sent before you (Torah, Psalms, Gospel...) and firmly believe in the Hereafter.

As has been stated, to believe in the original revelations sent through prophets Musa (Moses), Dawood (David) and Isa (Jesus) is one thing and to believe in the Bible as it exists today is another. Just think about the NT. How many of the words even in the four gospels are even attributed to Jesus? Only the ones in red font of some Bibles. Muslims do not accept, by any stretch of the imangination, Paul as a prophet of God through which revelation was made to him as he claims in Galations.

This does not say that Muslims are to do more than believe in the original revelation - of which I am sure portions still exist in the Bible.

[MustafaMc]

With all do respect sound like you want to pick and choose what you want to believe . But we can agree to disagree but I rather let the scriptures tell us what The Most High saying .

El Holy Qur'aan Chapter 89 , Verse 1 -5 ( Original order 89 ) Revealed In The Year 625 - 627 A.D. And I Quote ;Alif ; Adam -Laam ; Laytul Qadri , 'The Shadow Hour of Power ; Miym ; Muhammad ( the first and the last of the ones sent , of The Seed Of Adam ) .

Verse 2 . The Source , Allah is He ( He Not We ) who no Illaaha ( Allahs ) 'Sources ' would exist , except by way of Him ( Hu - The Force Of Creative Will ) . He is Al Hayyu ' The Everliving , Al Qayuwm '' The Subsisting . Verse 3. He ( He Not We ) Nazala 'Sent Down on you , ( Muhammad ) Al Kitaab '' The Scriptures ( Qur'aan ) Bi -Al Haqq '' With The Facts ( beyond any doubt ) , Musaddiqaan ' Confirming what is between Yadayhi ''His Hands ' ,( These are the scriptures before the Quraan ) ; and Anzala ' He Sent Down Al Tawraat '' The Torah and Al Injiy 'The Evangel ( send down the Injiyl but gave it to Yashu's / Isa ) Verse

4 . ( The other scriptures ) are Hudaa 'Calmness ' from before ( Quraan ) , for Al Naas ''The Enosites , ( the Children of Israel and the Torah ) ; And Anzala 'He Sent Down Al Furqaan ' The Differentiation . Surely , those who conceal what they know to be the facts , about Allah's Ayyaat 'Verses ' ( which are all His scriptures ) ; for them there will be a pain that is Shadiyd ' Forceful , and The Source Allah has the might , for He ( He Not We ) is the Aziyz '' Mighty of the Intiqaam ' Avenger .

Verse 5 . Surely , nothing in Al Samaa-i 'the Heavenly Skies , ( The Firmaments ) or the 'Planet Earth is Yakhfaa 'Hidden from The Source , Allah .

What is "El Holy Qur'aan"?

Malik translation:
Surah 89 ayat 1 By the morning,

2 and the ten nights,

3 the even and the odd,

4 and the night when it departs!

5 Is there not in these an oath (enough evidence) for those who use their common sense?

What does this have to do with your point about Muslims reading the Bible?

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&

Are their more then one Allah ?

Allah is the Arabic word for God . All holy books taught us that there is Only One God.

Whom people call gods are false dieties regarding their own holy books.

so , the conclusion is : There was/is/will NEVER be more than one Allah ( God Almighty ).

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[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

What does this have to do with your point about Muslims reading the Bible?

non-Muslims participants , u may ask off-topic questions here :

Things in Islam I am curious about.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-new-post.html

[MustafaMc]

With all do respect sound like you want to pick and choose what you want to believe . But we can agree to disagree but I rather let the scriptures tell us what The Most High saying .

El Holy Qur'aan Chapter 89 , Verse 1 -5 ( Original order 89 ) Revealed In The Year 625 - 627 A.D. And I Quote ;Alif ; Adam -Laam ; Laytul Qadri , 'The Shadow Hour of Power ; Miym ; Muhammad ( the first and the last of the ones sent , of The Seed Of Adam ) .

Verse 2 . The Source , Allah is He ( He Not We ) who no Illaaha ( Allahs ) 'Sources ' would exist , except by way of Him ( Hu - The Force Of Creative Will ) . He is Al Hayyu ' The Everliving , Al Qayuwm '' The Subsisting . Verse 3. He ( He Not We ) Nazala 'Sent Down on you , ( Muhammad ) Al Kitaab '' The Scriptures ( Qur'aan ) Bi -Al Haqq '' With The Facts ( beyond any doubt ) , Musaddiqaan ' Confirming what is between Yadayhi ''His Hands ' ,( These are the scriptures before the Quraan ) ; and Anzala ' He Sent Down Al Tawraat '' The Torah and Al Injiy 'The Evangel ( send down the Injiyl but gave it to Yashu's / Isa ) Verse

4 . ( The other scriptures ) are Hudaa 'Calmness ' from before ( Quraan ) , for Al Naas ''The Enosites , ( the Children of Israel and the Torah ) ; And Anzala 'He Sent Down Al Furqaan ' The Differentiation . Surely , those who conceal what they know to be the facts , about Allah's Ayyaat 'Verses ' ( which are all His scriptures ) ; for them there will be a pain that is Shadiyd ' Forceful , and The Source Allah has the might , for He ( He Not We ) is the Aziyz '' Mighty of the Intiqaam ' Avenger .

Verse 5 . Surely , nothing in Al Samaa-i 'the Heavenly Skies , ( The Firmaments ) or the 'Planet Earth is Yakhfaa 'Hidden from The Source , Allah .

Oh, you meant this passage:

Surah 3 1 Alif Lam M'im

2 Allah! There is no god but Him; the Living, the Eternal.

3 He has revealed to you this Book with the Truth, confirming the scripture which preceded it, as He revealed the Taurat (Torah) and Injeel (Gospel),

4 before this, as a guidance for mankind and also revealed this Al-Furqan. Surely those who reject Allah's revelations will be sternly punished; Allah is Mighty, capable of retribution.

5 For sure nothing in the Earth or in the Heavens is hidden from Allah.

And do you claim that the Pauline letters and the book of Revelations are part of either the Injeel or the Taurat?

[MustafaMc]

( Don't Believe Me . Check It Out ! )


Any reader of The Qur'aan that is familiar with the old testament , Or the new testament , Discovers that the names and events of the books and prophets have been definitely copied in The Qur'aan . I will now prove that the muslims teaching / language was copied from The Old Testament The Five Books Of Moses , / other cultures that predated them .

If both the Quran and portions of the Bible are in fact revelations from Allah, then one by default would expect similarities. It does not prove the later was copied from the earlier.

Yet . They will argue with anyone and try to convince people that Islam and its scriptures , The Quraan is Authentic . When in fact , I can give you serveral Words and Customs That was taken from from The Old Testament The Five Books Of Moses , / other cultures that predated them . For example , the ceremony of The Circumcision ( Genesis 17;10 ) .

Circumcision was first established with Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and the revelation to Prophet Muhammad did not abrogate this requirement.

The concept of a holy day called Sabbath ( Genesis 2 ; 2 -3 ) , And called Jum'ah ( Qur'aan , Chapter 62 ) by the muslims .

The concept is completely different. Yes, we have a day for obligatory congregational worship, but we are not prohibitted from working or doing other things prohibited for the Jew on the Sabbath.

The concept of a Turbaan or Prayer Cap , Which the muslims call a Kuffa , Came from The Jewish Yamala or Yarmulke .

Not a part of the religion and is not required for prayer.

The concept of the muslim Kalimat Tawhiyd ( Qur'aan 47;19 ) . Was taken from the jews Shama Yishrael '' Hear Oh Israel '' ( Dueteronmoy 6 ; 4 and 4 ; 35 ) .

Where they took their Kalimat , Laa Ilaaha Illa Allah ( Qur'aan 47 ; 19 ) . And this was carried over to Christianity ( Mark 12 ; 29 ) . And that's where muslims borrowed it from .

Again similarity does not prove copying - rather a common source of revelation which is Allah.

The took the concept of Fasting from the jews ( Nehemiah 9 ; 1 ) , The concept of Alms Giving ( Qur'aan 4 ; 162 ) , Their concept of making Hajj ( Ezra 3 ; 4 , 6 ; 22 ) .

These "proofs" don't prove anything to me and have nothing to do with Muslims supposedly being required to read the Bible.

[MustafaMc]

That list only showed many translations of the Holy Bible, not versions.
I am sure that in every "version" of the Bible from that list is written that- Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to earth in human flesh, died on a cross for our sins and ressurected.

You know lately i read that some muslim woman in USA made new translation of Quaran, where she removed and change all the verses that permitted wife beating, death penalty for apostasy, uneaquality between men and women.

And what, would you say now that there are two Quarans now? or two translations of Quaran?

The same thing is with all this list of so many Bible "versions"

And does this "Quran" that you speak of have the original, unadulterated Arabic alongside the translation?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

I will now prove that the muslims teaching / language was copied from The Old Testament The Five Books Of Moses , / other cultures that predated them .

LOL LOL LOL

this allegation has been proved wrong long long ago.

How come Quran does not have any errors that Bible has ? Bible has so many copyist mistakes when Quran has none ?


u believe While copying from Bible , Prophet Muhammed (p) ignored all the errors of the previous books ?

Just read about Hamam story ( available in this forum ) found in Bible & Quran....u will understand how Quran is different from Bible.

u may also read this article written by our 2 Revert brothers ( ex Christian missionaries )


Bible Compared to Quran

Based on transcripts of vairous lectures given by Yusuf Estes & Dr. Gary Miller

http://islamtomorrow.com/articles/Bible_vs_Quran.asp

[MustafaMc]

Well show us so we can read, you still yet to show me how you understand the statement believe to mean believe they are unchanged and should be read.

Brother, I have not seen the proof either. These claims may be made by members of the "Nation of Islam" in USA to justify their reading both the Bible and the Quran as equally valid "Words of Allah".

Balthasar21, are you from the Nation of Islam?

[MustafaMc]

Lakum Diinukum Wa Li Ya Diin

Likewise. My religion is Islam, what is your's?

[NoName55]

Brother, I have not seen the proof either. These claims may be made by members of the "Nation of Islam" in USA to justify their reading both the Bible and the Quran as equally valid "Words of Allah".

Balthasar21, are you from the Nation of Islam?

I suspect he is for he is always copy/pasting from their forums but his Eglish is as diabolically bad as an illiterate 12ver

:w:

[MustafaMc]

1. Christians going to Heaven

The Koran explains that its purpose was to point people to a relationship with God. The example of this relationship is Abraham’s friendship with God. Note:

4:125 - Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend.

Christians also have this relationship with God. This is acknowledged in the Koran.

3:113-115: Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

Allah will be the judge on that Day.

Quran 5:72-73 Certainly they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Maryam (Mary)." While Christ himself said: "O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb." Whoever commits shirk (joins partners with Allah), Allah will deny him the paradise, and the hellfire will be his home. There will be no helper for the wrongdoers. Certainly they are unbelievers who say: "Allah is one of three in a Trinity." There is no god except One Allah. If they do not stop saying what they say, a painful punishment will befall the disbelievers among them.

2. Those Books that were around during the time of Mohammed are available to us today.

Now, there were many religious leaders who Mohammed was very angry with. They distorted what was written down. Mohammed challenged them to bring the Books and read from them.

3:78 - There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

3:93 - All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."

7:91 - No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.

Yes, these Books existed at his time along with their errors and changes. These are the very reasons that we are NOT instructed to study the Bible for guidance!

3. The Koran encourages Muslims to study these Books that were previously sent to the Israelites and Christians.

So the issue was not about the accuracy or availability of the Books, but the misinterpretation. Muslims are not encouraged to listen to such people.

3:100 - O ye who believe! If ye listen to a faction among the People of the Book, they would (indeed) render you apostates after ye have believed!

However, they are instructed to read the Books for themselves and even request assistance if they need it.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

The "Book" referred to is the Quran. Yes, revelations were sent to others (descendants of Jacob) prior to the Quran. The point is that the Arabs no longer would have an excuse on that Day.

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

This was to reassure Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that this revelation was from Allah and not from Satan also that he was not insane. This shows the humanity of Muhammad (pbuh) as it is an extraordinarily rare event for such to happen to anyone.

Actually, Muslims are not just directed to read, study and believe these Books, but they were encouraged to also copy them that all nations may believe.

7:89 - 90 - These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not. Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations."

What Quran are you using?
Quran 7:89-90
We shall indeed invent a lie against Allah if we return to your ways after Allah has rescued us therefrom. It is not possible for us to turn back unless Allah, our Rabb, want us to. Our Rabb has vast knowledge of everything. We put our trust in Allah." Then they prayed: "Our Rabb! Decide between us and our nation with truth, for you are the best to decide." The leaders who disbelieved from among his nation said: "If you follow Shu`aib, you shall indeed be losers!"

Perhaps you meant:
6:89-90 Such were the people to whom We gave the Book, wisdom and Prophethood. Now if these people deny this guidance, it does not matter; We would bestow this guidance upon other people who would not disbelieve. O Muhammad, those were the people who were rightly guided by Allah, therefore, follow their guidance and tell these people: "I am not asking you any compensation for this work of delivering the Message to you, this message is nothing but a reminder to all the worlds."

Also 91-92:

Those people have not valued the attributes of Allah, the way His attributes should be valued, who say: "Allah has never revealed anything to a human being." Ask them: "Who then sent down the Book (Torah) which Musa brought, a light and guidance for mankind? You have transcribed it on separate sheets, publishing some and suppressing much of that given knowledge, which neither you nor your forefathers previously possessed." If they do not answer, then just say: "Allah" and leave them alone with the discourse of their useless arguments. This is the blessed Book, like the one given to Musa (Moses), which We have revealed, confirming what came before it, that you, O Muhammad, may warn the people living in the Mother City (Makkah) and those who live around her. Those who believe in the hereafter, will believe in this (Book) and will be steadfast in taking care of their Salah (prescribed prayers).

The passage that you quoted, refers to the guidance that was given to several prophets before Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). That quidance no longer exists in the revealed manner in distinct contrast to the unadulterated Quran.

[MustafaMc]

Where did the Qur'aan get its teaching from ? Please no side steping the question .

Amazingly suprising that you should ask. Of course, the Quran is a direct revelation from Allah - the Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

[MustafaMc]

I have shown you in my other post where it tell muslim to read the Scriptures before the Quraan , And you didn't accept them that why I said < Lakum - Diinukum - Wa - Li - Ya - Diin - Meaning '' You will have your decision , And I will have mine . .. .

Any Muslim knows this means "to you be your religion, and to me mine."

Obviously you have your mind made up about the Bible . But one thing is forsure if you had read the bible you would have know where your teaching come from '' Yes ''

I strongly disagree with this statement.

If muslims and christians don't read each other holy books , How will they be able to overstand (understand) each other scriptures , Or speak about them , You can't speak about anything you haven't study / read True ? Overstand (understand) something just because some one doesn't agree does - not make them Anti-Anything . Meaning Anti - Christian / Muslims Etc , Etc .
It simply means I disagree no more no less .

Yes, I have read the NT and most of the OT for that very reason - not to seek guidance from it.

[MustafaMc]

Therefore the evidence remains that principal act is submission to God and not following an Islamic tradition. Christians submit to God and follow a Christian tradition.

Regards,
Grenville

You are right in a sense that Islam is submission to the Will of Allah; however, the form of that submission has been prescribed according to the hadith and the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It is most logical to worship Allah how He wants to be worshipped - not according to our own inventions and desires. The Quran states in 3:85 If anyone is looking for a religion other than Islam, then let it be known that it will not be accepted from him; and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.

[MustafaMc]

All this because I wouldn't agree with you , You ought to be a shame to call yourself a muslims .

Please, do not disrespect my esteemed brother in Islam!

Here A CHALLENGE / QUESTION for you and you can get anyone you want to help you to answer the question ok. Post this question ok being your Moderator it shouldn't be a problem right .


Question ; Are Muslims another sect of Christians ?
None of your fast talking ok we're going to let the scriptures teach ok .
No more of your Sermon / Testimony Etc Etc , You speak of immaturity Yes . Let see if you take the CHALLENGE / QUESTION .

No, Muslims are those who submit to the Will of Allah. Christians believe that Allah had a Son, Jesus, who died on the cross for their sins. No muslim believes this!

[MustafaMc]

Again thank you for the response. My understanding of the verses that you quoted are below.

Hi MustafaMc:

You wanted me to provide you with verses that showed where the Koran encouraged Muslims to study those Books that were previously sent to the Israelites and Christians. Please see the following verses.

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

So Muslims are not only to believe the Koran, but the Books sent to Israelites and Christians. You cannot igronantly say “I believe” without actually reading or listening to the Books. Mohammed was not a lunatic. He would not tell Muslims to believe something that they simply had no way of accessing.

We believe in the original revelation revealed through prophets such as Moses, David, and Jesus. How much of the NT are direct quotes of Jesus and how many of them agree word-for-word between the four gospels?

Here is another verse.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

So Muslims are not only instructed to read and believe the Books but to follow them as well.

The book referred to here is the Quran. This verse removes the excuse that the Arabs did not have a revelation from Allah to follow. There were others (Jews and Christians) who received earlier revelations, but corrupted and changed them.

Here is another verse.

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

So Muslims are encouraged to seek instruction from those to whom God sent the Books previously, further confirming that acceptable copies were available at the time of Mohammed. Now Muslime are obviously not to seek instruction from those who would “hide the truth knowingly”, but from those described below.

This verse was to reassure Prophet Muhammad that he was not mad and that the revelation was not coming from Satan.

113-115: Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

Yes, I have read this too, but I have also read how "they disbelieve who say Jesus is the Son of God".

[Balthasar21]

If both the Quran and portions of the Bible are in fact revelations from Allah, then one by default would expect similarities. It does not prove the later was copied from the earlier.

Circumcision was first established with Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and the revelation to Prophet Muhammad did not abrogate this requirement.


The concept is completely different. Yes, we have a day for obligatory congregational worship, but we are not prohibitted from working or doing other things prohibited for the Jew on the Sabbath.

Not a part of the religion and is not required for prayer.

Again similarity does not prove copying - rather a common source of revelation which is Allah. These "proofs" don't prove anything to me and have nothing to do with Muslims supposedly being required to read the Bible.

Here A question for All muslims here ok


If muslims don't read the scriptures before the Quraan Like the Bible Etc .
How will that be able to Defend their faith against the teaching of the christian which is the christians Bible . Insulting / Cussing / Name Calling Etc Doesn't Change The Teaching Of The Christian Bible Nor Does it change the teaching of the Islam Quraan . Do you know how silly Yall sound saysing , My God Is Better Then Your God . Not to mention the same Prophets that's in the Bible are the same Prophet's In The Quraan . This is Sillyness :rollseyes

[Zulkiflim]

Here A question for All muslims here ok


If muslims don't read the scriptures before the Quraan Like the Bible Etc .
How will that be able to Defend their faith against the teaching of the christian which is the christians Bible . Insulting / Cussing / Name Calling Etc Doesn't Change The Teaching Of The Christian Bible Nor Does it change the teaching of the Islam Quraan . Do you know how silly Yall sound saysing , My God Is Better Then Your God . Not to mention the same Prophets that's in the Bible are the same Prophet's In The Quraan . This is Sillyness :rollseyes

Salaam,

It is said that at a time man did not know evil till it was taught.

it is the smae with the bible.

why would we want to know wrong when we already have the light?


Infact,i would say most chrisitan should know their onw bible better first.
the many version,the different words and even different number of chapter..

So i would say they should learn more of Islam so they can defend their faith...

[Balthasar21]

Salaam,

It is said that at a time man did not know evil till it was taught.

it is the smae with the bible.

why would we want to know wrong when we already have the light?


Infact,i would say most chrisitan should know their onw bible better first.
the many version,the different words and even different number of chapter..

So i would say they should learn more of Islam so they can defend their faith...

You can do whatever that get you though the day , But your more likely to be blinded by the light then the darkness .

[MustafaMc]

Since you won't answer my question, for a frame of reference I will assume that you are NOI. www.noi.org

Here A question for All muslims here ok


If muslims don't read the scriptures before the Quraan Like the Bible Etc .
How will that be able to Defend their faith against the teaching of the christian which is the christians Bible . Insulting / Cussing / Name Calling Etc Doesn't Change The Teaching Of The Christian Bible Nor Does it change the teaching of the Islam Quraan . Do you know how silly Yall sound saysing , My God Is Better Then Your God . Not to mention the same Prophets that's in the Bible are the same Prophet's In The Quraan . This is Sillyness :rollseyes

We don't need to defend our faith against the Christians, but it is good for us to know what they believe so that we can converse. We don't say our God is better than their's although that is exactly what I have heard some in America say publicly about Islam. We believe there is only One God and there is no better or worse for comparison. If there was only one human being on earth to say that the second or third one is taller or shorter makes no sense, because these are relative terms for an Absolute.

[Zulkiflim]

You can do whatever that get you though the day , But your more likely to be blinded by the light then the darkness .

Salaam,

I have a story for you..

An Imam was very strong in his faith and was always diligent in performing the acts of worship,,till one day he met another who was more pious and more worshipful person,Kharim..With the desire to be as him,he asked how did you submissive?

and the man siad,becasue i have done many ills in my life and thus i know what i need to do to repent.
And so in desiring the good ,the imam so went out and performed the ill that this man teaches.
he fornicated,he drank and murdered..and slowly bit by bit he forgot about worhsipo and fell in love wiht t

he forgot the reason and fell headlong into ill and evil acts.

Karim laughed and said You fell and will never leave,...revealing him to be satan..

so there is no need for us to read the bible with content that is filled with ungodly words,pornographic and incestous ..we have no need of such..

islam is enough,it teaches the right ....not the wrong.

[Balthasar21]

Salaam,

I have a story for you..

An Imam was very strong in his faith and was always diligent in performing the acts of worship,,till one day he met another who was more pious and more worshipful person,Kharim..With the desire to be as him,he asked how did you submissive?

and the man siad,becasue i have done many ills in my life and thus i know what i need to do to repent.
And so in desiring the good ,the imam so went out and performed the ill that this man teaches.
he fornicated,he drank and murdered..and slowly bit by bit he forgot about worhsipo and fell in love wiht t

he forgot the reason and fell headlong into ill and evil acts.

Karim laughed and said You fell and will never leave,...revealing him to be satan..

so there is no need for us to read the bible with content that is filled with ungodly words,pornographic and incestous ..we have no need of such..

islam is enough,it teaches the right ....not the wrong.

Overstand something I don't accept Testimont / Story / Sermon , because they can't be proven by anyone other then the one given them .

[Balthasar21]

If both the Quran and portions of the Bible are in fact revelations from Allah, then one by default would expect similarities. It does not prove the later was copied from the earlier.

Circumcision was first established with Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and the revelation to Prophet Muhammad did not abrogate this requirement.


The concept is completely different. Yes, we have a day for obligatory congregational worship, but we are not prohibitted from working or doing other things prohibited for the Jew on the Sabbath.

Not a part of the religion and is not required for prayer.

Again similarity does not prove copying - rather a common source of revelation which is Allah. These "proofs" don't prove anything to me and have nothing to do with Muslims supposedly being required to read the Bible.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL Whatever get you through the day .

[Balthasar21]

Since you won't answer my question, for a frame of reference I will assume that you are NOI. www.noi.org

We don't need to defend our faith against the Christians, but it is good for us to know what they believe so that we can converse. We don't say our God is better than their's although that is exactly what I have heard some in America say publicly about Islam. We believe there is only One God and there is no better or worse for comparison. If there was only one human being on earth to say that the second or third one is taller or shorter makes no sense, because these are relative terms for an Absolute.

You can dance around all you want but no way will YOU be able to converse with the christian or any other religion for that mattter if you haven't read their holy book . Also if you knew the teaching of NOI , You would know from my post I'm not one of them . This only show that you NEED TO READ THE BIBLE And OTHER SCRIPTURES because your lock into a zone .

[NoName55]

whether a 12ver or NOI or any other goofy type; it should all be the same to us.

I don't know what has happenned to Br. Mohammed but once he comes back, I'll probly make a nuisance of myself and try to get him to get rid of you (doesn't work all the time but often enough it does) for you are not beneficial to this site or forum members

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace;

.... you NEED TO READ THE BIBLE And OTHER SCRIPTURES because your lock into a zone .

I read Bible long ago. I saw warning in Bible that ( not the exact words ) God is jealous & will take revenge ; So , don't take other dieties besides God ; God is grater than all etc , etc.

I don't know after reading these verses in Bible , specially the warning that God is very jealous & will take revenge .....how Christians dare to take 2 equal partners with God Almighty ?

Christians are indeed " very brave " LOL +o(

Anyway , a simple ans to the post title / thread question is NO , for guidance purpose , Muslims are not oblilgated to read the Bible.

As Quran is the Last Testament / Final holy Book , it's a MUST for all to read the Quran ----NOT the Bible.


Holy Quran

The Saba


Say: Call upon those whom you assert besides God;

they do not control the weight of an atom in the heavens or in the earth nor have they any partnership in either,



nor has He among them any one to back (Him) up.

[34.22]



The Children of Israel


And say: (All) praise is due to God, Who has not taken a son and Who has not a partner in the kingdom,

and Who has not a helper to save Him from disgrace; and proclaim His greatness magnifying (Him). [17.111]


Surah/ Chapter Imran (The Family of Imran)

The Third Surah of the Qur'aan

Al-Hilali/Khan Translation



Say (O Muhammad ):

"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh,



and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh.

Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

http://www.al-sunnah.com/call_to_isl...an/surah3.html

[Zulkiflim]

You can dance around all you want but no way will YOU be able to converse with the christian or any other religion for that mattter if you haven't read their holy book . Also if you knew the teaching of NOI , You would know from my post I'm not one of them . This only show that you NEED TO READ THE BIBLE And OTHER SCRIPTURES because your lock into a zone .

Salaam,

I can convrse with anyone of any religion ....

i do not read their book but i listen to what they say and tell them of Islam.

their book is holy to them not to to me,and i do nto need to read your holy book nor any other.

An explae you are of an unknown religion but we are having a conversation

[Balthasar21]

Salaam/ peace;





I read Bible long ago. I saw warning in Bible that ( not the exact words ) God is jealous & will take revenge ; So , don't take other dieties besides God ; God is grater than all etc , etc.

I don't know after reading these verses in Bible , specially the warning that God is very jealous & will take revenge .....how Christians dare to take 2 equal partners with God Almighty ?

Christians are indeed " very brave " LOL +o(

Anyway , a simple ans to the post title / thread question is NO , for guidance purpose , Muslims are not oblilgated to read the Bible.

As Quran is the Last Testament / Final holy Book , it's a MUST for all to read the Quran ----NOT the Bible.


Holy Quran

The Saba


Say: Call upon those whom you assert besides God;

they do not control the weight of an atom in the heavens or in the earth nor have they any partnership in either,



nor has He among them any one to back (Him) up.

[34.22]



The Children of Israel


And say: (All) praise is due to God, Who has not taken a son and Who has not a partner in the kingdom,

and Who has not a helper to save Him from disgrace; and proclaim His greatness magnifying (Him). [17.111]


Surah/ Chapter Imran (The Family of Imran)

The Third Surah of the Qur'aan

Al-Hilali/Khan Translation



Say (O Muhammad ):

"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh,



and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh.

Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

http://www.al-sunnah.com/call_to_isl...an/surah3.html

Ques ; Why can't women in Islam lead prayer ?

[Zulkiflim]

Ques ; Why can't women in Islam lead prayer ?

Salaam,

Do make a new thread when you a differnt question.

So are you satisfied that we muslim need not have to read any other religion book to have a conversation with the adherent of that religion?

I gave you as an exaple..we are having a conversation despite not knowing your religion nor reading your book..

[Philosopher]

www.bs4a.blogspot.com

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Ques ; Why can't women in Islam lead prayer ?

pl. ask question here :


Things in Islam I am curious about... - in the Comparative religion forum of LI Islamic Forum.

This thread is located at:


http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-new-post.html

[Balthasar21]

Salaam,

Do make a new thread when you a differnt question.

So are you satisfied that we muslim need not have to read any other religion book to have a conversation with the adherent of that religion?

I gave you as an exaple..we are having a conversation despite not knowing your religion nor reading your book..

Let me say this one more time your own scriptures tell muslims to read the scriptures before the qur'aan meaning the Bible etc . Personally I careless if you read it or not , You can't Discuss or have A Conversation about anything you don't know , And that's the real deal .

[Balthasar21]

Salaam/peace;





pl. ask question here :


Things in Islam I am curious about... - in the Comparative religion forum of LI Islamic Forum.

This thread is located at:


http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-new-post.html

Thanks but no thanks if I want to read a book I'll buy one , Anyway I Doubt the answer anywhere on the forum .

[Balthasar21]

Oh, you meant this passage:

Surah 3 1 Alif Lam M'im

2 Allah! There is no god but Him; the Living, the Eternal.

3 He has revealed to you this Book with the Truth, confirming the scripture which preceded it, as He revealed the Taurat (Torah) and Injeel (Gospel),

4 before this, as a guidance for mankind and also revealed this Al-Furqan. Surely those who reject Allah's revelations will be sternly punished; Allah is Mighty, capable of retribution.

5 For sure nothing in the Earth or in the Heavens is hidden from Allah.

And do you claim that the Pauline letters and the book of Revelations are part of either the Injeel or the Taurat?

First overstand letter's are not Scriptures anyway Paul is the Anti-Christ of the Bible .

( First I Never Claim This Or That I Deal In Fact's )

( What Is The Injiyl Mentioned In The Muslim Quraan ? )

So Muslims will say , 'The Gospel .

The Quraan , Which means '' The Two Readings '' From the root word Qara'a was written by men , Is making a major mistake by trying to convince people that Jesus received The Gospel , Al Injiyl , As they call it ; When in fact he did not , And this is what this section is about . In The Qur'aan , The New Testament is referred to as , Al Injiyl , Which is inaccurate and wrong . They use Qur'aan Chapter 2 ; 126 , That reads '' Quuluuu 'Aamannaa Billaahi Wa Maaa 'Unzzila 'IIaynaa Wa Maaa 'Unzila 'Illaaa 'Ibraahiima Wa 'Ismaa - Iila Wa 'Ishaaqa Wa Ya - Quuba Wal - Asbaati Wa Maa 'Uutiya Muusaa Wa ' Iissa Wa Maaa 'Untiyannabiyyuuna Mir - Rabbihim , Laa Nufarriqu Bayna ' Ahadimminhum , Wa Nahnu Lahuu Muslimuun ,

First of all , This is not a correct translation , But again you will will be able to see the point by looking at The Arabic translation , Which I underlined below , and it translates '' Say Ye ; '' We Believe In Allah , And The Revelation Given To Us , And To Abraham , Ishmael , Isaac , Jacob , And The Tribe , And That Given To Moses And Jesus , And That Given To [ All ] Prophets From Their Lord , We Make No Difference Between One And Another Of Them And We Bow To Allah [ In Islam ] ,

Qur'aan 2 ; 136 ,( Right translation In Ashuric / Syriac Arabic ) And I Quote ; Qoo - loo ( You all are to say , Tell ) Aaman -naa ( We have faith ) Be - al - lahi ( In the source ) Wa ( And ) Maaa ( What , That which ) Unzila ( He sent down ) Ilaynaa ( To , towards us ) Wa ( And ) Maa ( What , That Which ) Unzila ( He sent down Ilaaa ( To , towards ) Abraa -Heema ( Abraham the father of many nations ) Wa ( And ) Ismaa - 'Eela ( Ishmael , Allah Or El Hears ) Wa ( And ) Ishaaqa ( Isaac He Who Laughs ) Wa ( And ) Ya 'aqooba ( Jacob Supplanter ) Wa ( And ) Al - Asbaati ( The tribes ) Wa ( And ) Maaa ( What , That Which ) Oo -tiya ( Was given ) Moosaa ( Moses , drawn forth ) Wa ( And ) 'Eesaa ( Jesus Savior ) Wa ( And ) Maa ( What , That which ) Oo-tiya ( Was given ) Al -nabe -yoona ( The Newsbearers ) Min ( From ) Rab - bihim ( Their Sustainer ) Laa ( Don't , not ) Nufar -riqu ( We make a distinction ) Bayna ( Between ) Ahadin ( Anyone ) Minhum ( From Them ) .
Tell them this ( Muhammad ) '' We ( Muhammad and his followers ) have faith in Allah , And what he sent down to us ( The Quraan ) and he sent down to Abrawhawm and Yishmael and Yitschaq , and Ya'aqob and the tribes and , What was given to Mosheh , ( The Torah and Isa / Yashu'a - ( The Revelation and what was given to the Anbiyaa , Newsbearers , From Their Rabb , Master We ( Muhammad and his followers ) Do not Nufarriqu , 'Make any distinction ' Between any of them and we Muslimuwm ' Surrender in peace ' to him .

( Mistranslation By Yusef Ali 1938 A.D. )
''say ye ; We believe in Allah , And the revelation given to us , And to Abraham , Ismail , Isaac , Jacob , And the tribes , And that given to Moses and Jesus , And that given to ( all ) prophets from their lord we make no diffrence between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (Islam ) .


( This part here is what we are conerned with ; Wa Maaa 'Uutiya ( Given ) Muusaa ( Moses ) Wa 'Iysaa ( Jesus ) .

This part of the above verse translates '' And What Was Given Moses And Jesus Now , Qur'aan 3 ; 3 Clearly States ; Nazzala 'Alaykal - Kitaaba Bil - Haqqi Musaddiql - Limaa Bayna Yadayhi Wa 'Anzalat - Tawraata Wal - 'Injiil ,

Which they translate as ; '' It Is He Who Sent Down To Thee ( Step By Step ) In Truth The Book Comfirming What Went Before It , And He Sent Down The Law ( Of Moses ) And The Gospel ( Of Jesus ) , According to the Yusef Ali Translation .

The Yusef Ali translation is Incorrect , But the point is still clear if you look at the Transliterated Arabic above . The implication is that Moses got The Torah written as At Tawraat in The Ashuric / Syriac Arabic , And Jesus got The Gospel Written 'Al Injiyl ' In The Above . And Jesus Never Did Receive A Scripture , Again Allah Or The Writers Of The Qur'aan Made A Mistake !!!!!



More to come

[MustafaMc]

Let me say this one more time your own scriptures tell muslims to read the scriptures before the qur'aan meaning the Bible etc . Personally I careless if you read it or not , You can't Discuss or have A Conversation about anything you don't know , And that's the real deal .

CHALLENGE - Quote the Quran chapter and verse right here and now where "your own scriptures tell muslims to read the scriptures before the qur'aan meaning the Bible etc" is clear to anyone other than yourself. You can copy and paste the passage in your reply and put in bold font the part whereby you get this understanding.

[MustafaMc]

First overstand letter's are not Scriptures anyway Paul is the Anti-Christ of the Bible .

Since you are so intent on schooling Muslims, what does "overstand" mean? I can't find it in the dictionary.

[Balthasar21]

Salaam/peace;



LOL LOL LOL

this allegation has been proved wrong long long ago.

How come Quran does not have any errors that Bible has ? Bible has so many copyist mistakes when Quran has none ?


u believe While copying from Bible , Prophet Muhammed (p) ignored all the errors of the previous books ?

Just read about Hamam story ( available in this forum ) found in Bible & Quran....u will understand how Quran is different from Bible.

u may also read this article written by our 2 Revert brothers ( ex Christian missionaries )


Bible Compared to Quran

Based on transcripts of vairous lectures given by Yusuf Estes & Dr. Gary Miller

http://islamtomorrow.com/articles/Bible_vs_Quran.asp

With all do respect Paul of the christian says it best when it comes to women,
And I do believe muslims accept this verse Also 1Corinthians 14 ; 34 , And I Quote ; Let Your Woman Keep Silence In Churches / Masjid ; For it is not permitted unto them to speak , But they are commanded to be under obedience , As also saith the law '' .

[Balthasar21]

Since you are so intent on schooling Muslims, what does "overstand" mean? I can't find it in the dictionary.

So you have learn something Knew yes .
When one Over-Stand something it means He / She is Standing Over It Not Under it .

[Balthasar21]

CHALLENGE - Quote the Quran chapter and verse right here and now where "your own scriptures tell muslims to read the scriptures before the qur'aan meaning the Bible etc" is clear to anyone other than yourself. You can copy and paste the passage in your reply and put in bold font the part whereby you get this understanding.

First I Never Written Any Scriptures Ok , And trying to label me doesn't change your own quraan tell muslims to read the scriptures before the quraan meaning The Bible Etc . ether you follow the words of the quraan or you don't it mattter not to me . But if your asking me does the bible tell muslims to read the quraan No . But I'm not speaking about the Bible I'm telling you what your own scriptures say no more no less . Trying to side track the question doesn't change it , it stays the SAME

[MustafaMc]

First I Never Written Any Scriptures Ok ,

What about post #197 above. Anyway, I will do it for you....

Quran 2:136 Say: "We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us; and what was revealed to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Ya'qoob (Jacob) and their descendants, and that which was given to Musa (Moses), Isa (Jesus) and other Prophets from their Rabb. We do not discriminate any of them, and to Allah we have surrendered ourselves (in Islam)."

Quran 3:3 He has revealed to you this Book with the Truth, confirming the scripture which preceded it, as He revealed the Taurat (Torah) and Injeel (Gospel),

Adding ayat 4

before this, as a guidance for mankind and also revealed this Al-Furqan (criterion for judgment between right and wrong). Surely those who reject Allah's revelations will be sternly punished; Allah is Mighty, capable of retribution.

These ayat do not say what you are claiming they say.

And trying to label me doesn't change your own quraan tell muslims to read the scriptures before the quraan meaning The Bible Etc .

I don't care what you are. I myself am not ashamed to say that I am a Caucasian American Muslim striving to follow the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad and I have no hidden agenda as you apparently do.

ether you follow the words of the quraan or you don't it mattter not to me . But if your asking me does the bible tell muslims to read the quraan No .

Is this double-speak or what? I never asked this question.

But I'm not speaking about the Bible I'm telling you what your own scriptures say no more no less . Trying to side track the question doesn't change it , it stays the SAME

How is what I posted side tracking from the title question, "Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?"

I sense that you are finding it incredibly difficult to back up your claims, but I am patient.....

[Balthasar21]

( Muslims Are Told To Read The Book Before The Quraan )

El Holy Qur'aan Chapter 89 , Verse 1 -5 ( Original order 89 ) Revealed In The Year 625 - 627 A.D. And I Quote ;Alif ; Adam -Laam ; Laytul Qadri , 'The Shadow Hour of Power ; Miym ; Muhammad ( the first and the last of the ones sent , of The Seed Of Adam ) .

Verse 2 . The Source , Allah is He ( He Not We ) who no Illaaha ( Allahs ) 'Sources ' would exist , except by way of Him ( Hu - The Force Of Creative Will ) . He is Al Hayyu ' The Everliving , Al Qayuwm '' The Subsisting . Verse 3. He ( He Not We ) Nazala 'Sent Down on you , ( Muhammad ) Al Kitaab '' The Scriptures ( Qur'aan ) Bi -Al Haqq '' With The Facts ( beyond any doubt ) , Musaddiqaan ' Confirming what is between Yadayhi ''His Hands ' ,( These are the scriptures before the Quraan ) ; and Anzala ' He Sent Down Al Tawraat '' The Torah and Al Injiy 'The Evangel ( send down the Injiyl but gave it to Yashu's / Isa ) Verse

4 . ( The other scriptures ) are Hudaa 'Calmness ' from before ( Quraan ) , for Al Naas ''The Enosites , ( the Children of Israel and the Torah ) ; And Anzala 'He Sent Down Al Furqaan ' The Differentiation . Surely , those who conceal what they know to be the facts , about Allah's Ayyaat 'Verses ' ( which are all His scriptures ) ; for them there will be a pain that is Shadiyd ' Forceful , and The Source Allah has the might , for He ( He Not We ) is the Aziyz '' Mighty of the Intiqaam ' Avenger .

Verse 5 . Surely , nothing in Al Samaa-i 'the Heavenly Skies , ( The Firmaments ) or the 'Planet Earth is Yakhfaa 'Hidden from The Source , Allah .

( 1 ) . As Suhuf [ 100 pure page ]
The book of life - 10 page .
A ) Adam Birth ( 4026 ) , death ( 3096 ) B.C.E.
1 A,C , --- 930 A.C.
Age of death --- 930 yrs .
Age completed scriptures ; 900 yrs
Date completed scriptures ; 3126 B,C,E,

As Suhuf [ 100 pure pages ]
The book of sin --- 50 pages
B ) Seth --- Birth ( 3896 ) , death ( 2984 ) B.C.E.
130 a.c. -- 1042 A.C.
Age of death --- 912 yrs
Age received the scriptures 120 yrs .
Date received scriptures 3776 B.C.E.

As Suhuf [ 100 pure pages ]
The book of Time --- 30 pages
C ) Enoch ---Birth ( 3404 ) , death ( 3039 ) B.C.E.
622 A.C. --- 987 A.C.
Age of death --- 365 yrs
Age received the scriptures 120 yrs
Date received scripture 3284 B.C.E - ( Enoch ( PBUH ) Did Not Die A Physical Death


As Suhuf [ 100 pure pages ]
The book of generation --- 10 pages
D ) Abraham --- Birth ( 2078 ) death ( 1903 ) B.C.E.
1948 A.C. --- 2123 A.C.
Age of death --- 175 yrs
Age received scriptures 120 yrs
Date received scriptures 1958 B.C.E.


Al Hikmah ( The Wisdom ) 19 Books
( 2 ) Luqman ( Leummim )
Birth ( 1791 ) death ( 1671 ) B.C.E.
2235 A.C. -- 2355 A.C.
Age of death --- 120 yrs
Age received the scriptures ; 120 yrs
Date received scriptures 1671 B.C.E.


At Tawraah ( The Torah ) - 5 Books
( 3 ) Moses --- Birth ( 1593 ) death ( 1473 ) B.C.E.
2433 a.c. --- 2553 A.D.
Age of death --- 120 yrs
Age received the scriptures 80 yrs
Date received scriptures B.C.E.
A - Genesis --- received Scriptures 1512
B - Exodus --- received Scriptures 1513
C - Leviticus -- received Scriptures 1473
D - Number -- received Scriptures 1473
E - Deuteronomy - received Scriptures 1473


Az Zubuwr ( The Psalms ) -- 150 Books
4 . David --- Birth ( 1107 ) death ( 1007 ) B.C.E.
2919 A.C. --- 3019 A.C.
Age of death --- 100 yrs
Age received the scriptures 70 yrs
Age received the scriptures 1037 B.C.E.


The Book Of Barnabas ( Joses A Levi - 222 Books )
( 5 ) Joses -- Birth ( 19 B.C.E. ) death ( 62 ) A.D.
3981 A.C. --- 4062 A.C.
Age of death --- 81 yrs
Age received the scriptures 73 yrs
Date received the scriptures 54 yrs


Al Injiy ( Evangel , Reavelation ) -- 22 Books
( 6 ) Birth ( 7 A.D. ) , death ( 127 )
4007 A.C. -- 4127 A.C.
Age of --- 120 yrs
John the apostles of Jesus inscribed Revelation on the Island of Patmos date completed scriptures 96 A.D.

Al Qur'aan [ The Koran ]
( 7 ) Muhammad ( Ahmad )
Birth ( 570 A.D. ) death 632 A.D.
4570 A.C. --- 4625 A. C.
52 B.H. --- 10 A . H .
Age of death 62 yrs
Age received the scriptures ; 40 yrs
Date received the scriptures 610 A.D.
Date completed scriptures 631 A.D.

Qur'aan , 2 ; 253 - 285 , 3 ; 1 - 91

[Balthasar21]

What are the Compaison Between the Bible and Koran ?

[Balthasar21]

What about post #197 above. Anyway, I will do it for you....

Quran 2:136 Say: "We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us; and what was revealed to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Ya'qoob (Jacob) and their descendants, and that which was given to Musa (Moses), Isa (Jesus) and other Prophets from their Rabb. We do not discriminate any of them, and to Allah we have surrendered ourselves (in Islam)."

Quran 3:3 He has revealed to you this Book with the Truth, confirming the scripture which preceded it, as He revealed the Taurat (Torah) and Injeel (Gospel),

Adding ayat 4

before this, as a guidance for mankind and also revealed this Al-Furqan (criterion for judgment between right and wrong). Surely those who reject Allah's revelations will be sternly punished; Allah is Mighty, capable of retribution.

These ayat do not say what you are claiming they say.


I don't care what you are. I myself am not ashamed to say that I am a Caucasian American Muslim striving to follow the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad and I have no hidden agenda as you apparently do.


Is this double-speak or what? I never asked this question.

How is what I posted side tracking from the title question, "Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?"

I sense that you are finding it incredibly difficult to back up your claims, but I am patient.....

As long as you're side steping the truth you will never see the truth , But hey no big thing . One thing forsure you know your learning something even you teacher haven't taught you because your not allow to question him . By the way as long as your dealing with belief's You can't see the truth Quraan 17 ; 81

[MustafaMc]

As long as you're side steping the truth you will never see the truth , But hey no big thing . One thing forsure you know your learning something even you teacher haven't taught you because your not allow to question him . By the way as long as your dealing with belief's You can't see the truth Quraan 17 ; 81

Are you a Mason?

[Balthasar21]

Are you a Mason?

I have you thinking big time don't I lolololololololol .
By the way What's a mason ?

[NoName55]

Are you a Mason?

:sl:

If you realise that this person is using google and replies at kinda randomly copy pasting what he thinks is the closest match to subject at hand.

for example from some posts he looked like an Iranian 12ver, then NOI, then a Jew now a Mason.

It is probly better to help him by not replying to him so that he will have no incentive to post. If people ignore him, he will get worse for a while then go away to be a nuisance someplace else.

:w:

[Woodrow]

:sl:

If you realise that this person is using google and reply at kinda random by copy pasting what he thinks is the closest match to subject at hand.

for example from some posts he looked like an Iranian 12ver, then NOI, then a Jew now a Mason.

It is probly better to help him by not replying to him so that he will have no incentive to post. If people ignore him, he will get worse for a while then go away to be a nuisance someplace else.

:w:

Quite true. but at the same time we must be certain we do not guide him away from Islam. That has to be his choice and not the result of anything we say or do.

It is our responsibility to speak the words of the Qur'an for all to hear and to help answer any questions or guide them to those who can answer. We must do our best to make him welcome to read if he so desires to read.

[NoName55]

Quite true. but at the same time we must be certain we do not guide him away from Islam. That has to be his choice and not the result of anything we say or do.

It is our responsibility to speak the words of the Qur'an for all to hear and to help answer any questions or guide them to those who can answer. We must do our best to make him welcome to read if he so desires to read.

:sl:

:) Thank You for the reminder (sometimes I forget).

Ma'asalaama

[Balthasar21]

:sl:

If you realise that this person is using google and reply at kinda random by copy pasting what he thinks is the closest match to subject at hand.

for example from some posts he looked like an Iranian 12ver, then NOI, then a Jew now a Mason.

It is probly better to help him by not replying to him so that he will have no incentive to post. If people ignore him, he will get worse for a while then go away to be a nuisance someplace else.

:w:

The real question here should be why haven't your teacher taught you these thing , If you have read the scriptures before the quraan like it says maybe you would know these things but no your to Lazyyyy . Having Excuses is no excuse for not knowing your own belief's , Really it's Sad , One can tell you know nothing about the NOI / Mason / Iranian teaching because you don't even know your own for that matter . My post are like NOI / Mason / Iranian teaching -- What Joke . It's no shame not knowing . But it sad when you have to go as far to makeup Lies . You make the true muslims here look bad .

[Woodrow]

Some of these replies are getting to be too personal. We all need to remember to address the topics, not the individuals.

the topic of this thread is:

Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?

The answer should be a simple yes or no. However, that answer is no longer applicable as we have no way to know what is the Bible. There are books that adherents claim to be the Bible, but what is the proof that any of them are the Tauret, Zaboor or Injil spoken of in the Qur'an?

[MustafaMc]

[B]...
the topic of this thread is:

"Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?"

The answer should be a simple yes or no. However, that answer is no longer applicable as we have no way to know what is the Bible. There are books that adherents claim to be the Bible, but what is the proof that any of them are the Tauret, Zaboor or Injil spoken of in the Qur'an?

Thank you, Brother Woodrow. I, of course, know the answer to this question and I have read nothing to change my mind despite persistent requests for proof. For me this thread has grown pointless.

[Balthasar21]

Some of these replies are getting to be too personal. We all need to remember to address the topics, not the individuals.

the topic of this thread is:



The answer should be a simple yes or no. However, that answer is no longer applicable as we have no way to know what is the Bible. There are books that adherents claim to be the Bible, but what is the proof that any of them are the Tauret, Zaboor or Injil spoken of in the Qur'an?

With all do respect if the Quraan is from Allah , And the names of these books are in the Quraan . They must exist , Then the next question would be where are they , if the muslims don't accept that they come from the Bible , Again where are these book Allah tell muslim to read .( Just A Though ) . A yes or no answer always leads to another question What / When / Where / How / Who .

[Zulkiflim]

Let me say this one more time your own scriptures tell muslims to read the scriptures before the qur'aan meaning the Bible etc . Personally I careless if you read it or not , You can't Discuss or have A Conversation about anything you don't know , And that's the real deal .

Salaam,

Actually that is your belief not what is.

Do you have Gospel according to Propeht Jesus as?
Do you have the OT testament that has not been changed?

No..so again and again we have answerd you,,we need not read any one book to have a conversaion with that person.

And since i ahve not read the bible but stiall am carying a conversation with graceseeker and izakhalevas...

So can you tell me,isnt it clear,i do not know your religon nor have i read your book,,,but i can converse with you..

Or are you saying we are not conversin about MY faith.

[Zulkiflim]

With all do respect Paul of the christian says it best when it comes to women,
And I do believe muslims accept this verse Also 1Corinthians 14 ; 34 , And I Quote ; Let Your Woman Keep Silence In Churches / Masjid ; For it is not permitted unto them to speak , But they are commanded to be under obedience , As also saith the law '' .

Salaam,

Hmm..so what you are sayin is that women cant lead prayers for women?

In Islam it is allowed,and te mother of the faith as well as the other Propehts wives often preached to those in the masjid...

in Singapore,women preahers preach alongisde the men,but about gender issue it is best to leave it to the women themselves.

In the sunnah it is said that when women asked the Propeht Muhammad saw,about owmen issue,he always replied VIA his wives...
thus women can preach..they also perform dakwah ..

[Zulkiflim]

First I Never Written Any Scriptures Ok , And trying to label me doesn't change your own quraan tell muslims to read the scriptures before the quraan meaning The Bible Etc . ether you follow the words of the quraan or you don't it mattter not to me . But if your asking me does the bible tell muslims to read the quraan No . But I'm not speaking about the Bible I'm telling you what your own scriptures say no more no less . Trying to side track the question doesn't change it , it stays the SAME

Salaam,

Since you are not amuslim .....and we are muslim isnt it better to ask us what the verses in teh Quran mean?

I mena as you have pointed out,you need to know about the other faith to have a conversation but here you are,proving yourself false.

Why dont you post the verses so we MUSLIM can explain to you a non-muslim what it means..

Simple?

But if you like to continue in your erronous way,then that is your choice.

[Zulkiflim]

What are the Compaison Between the Bible and Koran ?

salaam,

To ask a new question create a new thread.

Are you satisfied that we need not read hte other religioon books to understand and have a conversation?

Or you will change the issue again?

[Zulkiflim]

Quite true. but at the same time we must be certain we do not guide him away from Islam. That has to be his choice and not the result of anything we say or do.

It is our responsibility to speak the words of the Qur'an for all to hear and to help answer any questions or guide them to those who can answer. We must do our best to make him welcome to read if he so desires to read.

Salaam,

I agree,we cannot leave any question unreplied.

Tell him he truth as is in Islam..not in the way he sees it.

Should he continue in his way,then he sin doubly for now he know the truth but WILLINGLY LIE..

[Balthasar21]

Salaam,

I agree,we cannot leave any question unreplied.

Tell him he truth as is in Islam..not in the way he sees it.

Should he continue in his way,then he sin doubly for now he know the truth but WILLINGLY LIE..

ok if you say so LOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Woodrow]

With all do respect if the Quraan is from Allah , And the names of these books are in the Quraan . They must exist , Then the next question would be where are they , if the muslims don't accept that they come from the Bible , Again where are these book Allah tell muslim to read .( Just A Though ) . A yes or no answer always leads to another question What / When / Where / How / Who .

Now it is true the names of the books are indicated in the Qur'an. we do know that the Injil was the message given to Jesus(as). Yet, no where in the bible is there any reference to what God(swt) told Jesus(as) to give to mankind. Instead we have the "Eye witness" accounts of those who followed Jesus(as). But we have no direct quote from Jesus(as) as to what the Injil contained.

I will agree that what appears to be the Tauret (Jewish Pentatuch) and the Zaboor (Book of Psalms) does appear in the OT. However, they should be identical to what the Jews have and if you read through the Jewish thread here or check with any Jewish Web site, you will find they do not match. So obviously one or both are in error and not what was originally said.

[Zulkiflim]

With all do respect if the Quraan is from Allah , And the names of these books are in the Quraan . They must exist , Then the next question would be where are they , if the muslims don't accept that they come from the Bible , Again where are these book Allah tell muslim to read .( Just A Though ) . A yes or no answer always leads to another question What / When / Where / How / Who .

Salaam,

the words of the Quran are from Allah.

And again you are but confusing yourself,the Quran does not require muslim to read any other book..

The Quran is sufficient..

The problem is simple,the bible is corrupted..both the NT and OT.

Thus they are not the book referred to the Quran.
And another name for the Quran is the criterion..
The Quran dispel the corruption in the other books.

Allah is ONE not 3
Propeht Jesus as is not god
Uzair is not god.
Do not worship idols.
..

Simple..

[Zulkiflim]

ok if you say so LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Salaam,

It is not me who say so..

For a person to continue lie despite kowing it is a lie,,he sins..

It is simple,Allah knows best.

[Balthasar21]

Now it is true the names of the books are indicated in the Qur'an. we do know that the Injil was the message given to Jesus(as). Yet, no where in the bible is there any reference to what God(swt) told Jesus(as) to give to mankind. Instead we have the "Eye witness" accounts of those who followed Jesus(as). But we have no direct quote from Jesus(as) as to what the Injil contained.

I will agree that what appears to be the Tauret (Jewish Pentatuch) and the Zaboor (Book of Psalms) does appear in the OT. However, they should be identical to what the Jews have and if you read through the Jewish thread here or check with any Jewish Web site, you will find they do not match. So obviously one or both are in error and not what was originally said.

Again with all do respect , Question if I may why do SOME muslims hide what the quraan says , If Quraan is from Allah ok , can any muslims here tell me why Allah put these scriptures in the Quraan , And what was Allah reson for doing so . And if these scriptures are not talking about the Bible . Then What scriptures are they speaking of and where can they be found .

[Woodrow]

Again with all do respect , Question if I may why do SOME muslims hide what the quraan says , If Quraan is from Allah ok , can any muslims here tell me why Allah put these scriptures in the Quraan , And what was Allah reson for doing so . And if these scriptures are not talking about the Bible . Then What scriptures are they speaking of and where can they be found .

None of us here are scholars and we can only give our own opinions, which may be in error and not in accordance with Islam.

I may be wrong, at the moment I can not find the ayyat you are referring too. I have read it many times and am familiar with it. But, at the moment I am brain dead at trying to remember which one it is. If memory serves me correctly what is actually said is that we are commanded to believe what came before us. It does not command us to read what came before. It also does not specificaly state that this is the Tauret, Zaboor or Injil. Although we believe those are included as we know that at one time Allah(swt) did reveal them. That is more of a determination by the early scholars and Imans.

My personal interpretation, and this may be in error, of that means that if we know something was truly said by Allah(swt) in the past, it is still valid today. For example we know Allah(swt) forbade the eating of pork prior to the written Qur'an and that command is still just as valid as the day it was first given.

Astagfirullah

[Zulkiflim]

Again with all do respect , Question if I may why do SOME muslims hide what the quraan says , If Quraan is from Allah ok , can any muslims here tell me why Allah put these scriptures in the Quraan , And what was Allah reson for doing so . And if these scriptures are not talking about the Bible . Then What scriptures are they speaking of and where can they be found .

Salaam,

plainly you are reading what EVERY MUSLIM HERE IS POSTING..

What verses are we hiding?\
can you show us?

It is a sin to hde knowledge for the Propeht Muhammad saw said so.
And we muslim fear sin.

So pls provide for us the verses..that actually refer to the bible..

And your question,Why Allah puts the scripture in the Quran?
It is a guidance for all of mankind...

And the Quran refers to the Books given unto the previous Propehts,all corrupted now.

[Balthasar21]

Salaam,

plainly you are reading what EVERY MUSLIM HERE IS POSTING..

What verses are we hiding?\
can you show us?

It is a sin to hde knowledge for the Propeht Muhammad saw said so.
And we muslim fear sin.

So pls provide for us the verses..that actually refer to the bible..

And your question,Why Allah puts the scripture in the Quran?
It is a guidance for all of mankind...

And the Quran refers to the Books given unto the previous Propehts,all corrupted now.

Overstand If You Can , In every post I have posted I Have back it up with chapter / verse . I just don't say anything nor do I make things up .So seek out the verse in one of my above post , And I have been reading some of the Christian post and Muslims post And you know what SOME key word here SOME Muslims here , Want people to agree with them and you're one of then . And when you don't agree with them they get Defensive . I see that as a sign of wickness . And some Christians are the same way . And this is because 90% Christians and Muslims Don't know their own scriptures , They are not allow to question their Teacher , They're told never to question there God , Be it Yahuwa / Allah Etc Etc . Just believe , What foolishness , Its like saying wait until you die and you see what you have been told is the truth or not . Those muslims who will read the Bible will overstand the Christians Teaching , And those christian who will read the quraan will overstand muslims teaching . personally I careless .

[Woodrow]

Overstand If You Can , In every post I have posted I Have back it up with chapter / verse . I just don't say anything nor do I make things up .So seek out the verse in one of my above post , And I have been reading some of the Christian post and Muslims post And you know what SOME key word here SOME Muslims here , Want people to agree with them and you're one of then . And when you don't agree with them they get Defensive . I see that as a sign of wickness . And some Christians are the same way . And this is because 90% Christians and Muslims Don't know their own scriptures , They are not allow to question their Teacher , They're told never to question there God , Be it Yahuwa / Allah Etc Etc . Just believe , What foolishness , Its like saying wait until you die and you see what you have been told is the truth or not . Those muslims who will read the Bible will overstand the Christians Teaching , And those christian who will read the quraan will overstand muslims teaching . personally I careless .

Islam, because of the emphasis of our being personaly responsible for our choices, pretty much forces us to look and be satisfied with what we believe from our own investigation and not simply on the basis of the teachings of any one person.

I find us to be the the most questioning of all religions and it is only if we become lazy do we stop seeking for more proof of what we believe.

[Balthasar21]

Islam, because of the emphasis of our being personaly responsible for our choices, pretty much forces us to look and be satisfied with what we believe from our own investigation and not simply on the basis of the teachings of any one person.

I find us to be the the most questioning of all religions and it is only if we become lazy do we stop seeking for more proof of what we believe.

Woodrow < says > I find us to be the the most questioning of all religions and it is only if we become lazy do we stop seeking for more proof of what we believe




All religion say the same .

[Woodrow]

Woodrow < says > I find us to be the the most questioning of all religions and it is only if we become lazy do we stop seeking for more proof of what we believe




All religion say the same .

Agree somewhat, When I was a Christian I was discourged from reading any writings about other faiths. Yet, when I entered seminary to become a Priest one of the first things I was exposed to was comparative religion, and because of it I questioned my former beliefs and found the path that eventually led me to Islam. Not too long back I would have been considered to be anti-Islamic. I had to come to terms with many things I questioned and had to fully satisfy myself that Islam was the right path before I reverted and that took over 60 years.

[Zulkiflim]

Overstand If You Can , In every post I have posted I Have back it up with chapter / verse . I just don't say anything nor do I make things up .So seek out the verse in one of my above post , And I have been reading some of the Christian post and Muslims post And you know what SOME key word here SOME Muslims here , Want people to agree with them and you're one of then . And when you don't agree with them they get Defensive . I see that as a sign of wickness . And some Christians are the same way . And this is because 90% Christians and Muslims Don't know their own scriptures , They are not allow to question their Teacher , They're told never to question there God , Be it Yahuwa / Allah Etc Etc . Just believe , What foolishness , Its like saying wait until you die and you see what you have been told is the truth or not . Those muslims who will read the Bible will overstand the Christians Teaching , And those christian who will read the quraan will overstand muslims teaching . personally I careless .

Salaam,

Hmm well as woodrow has said there are no such verses.

Plain to say that you wsh the verses to mean what you want.

and the very reason for this forum is for discussion,for understanding.
We do not quesion the Quran for it right.

It is only men "perspective" and people who assume they think they are right despite being non muslim,who try to force people of faith to reexamine themslves.

It is like talking to an adolescent who beleives that all he does is right.
LOL..

[Balthasar21]

Salaam,

Hmm well as woodrow has said there are no such verses.

Plain to say that you wsh the verses to mean what you want.

and the very reason for this forum is for discussion,for understanding.
We do not quesion the Quran for it right.

It is only men "perspective" and people who assume they think they are right despite being non muslim,who try to force people of faith to reexamine themslves.

It is like talking to an adolescent who beleives that all he does is right.
LOL..

You know what wrong with people of religion rather it Christianity / Islam Etc . They are caught up in this thing called my Faith / Belief's / God is better than yours Faith / Belief's / God , Meaning They Assume Everyone Wrong But Them . But hey whatever get you through the day .

[Zulkiflim]

You know what wrong with people of religion rather it Christianity / Islam Etc . They are caught up in this thing called my Faith / Belief's / God is better than yours Faith / Belief's / God , Meaning They Assume Everyone Wrong But Them . But hey whatever get you through the day .

Salaam,

It is a simple thing in Islam.

there is a verse that ask any prson of any faith ,,either individual or a gropup to produce a book like the Quran.

If you cna produce a book..

then a chapter

If you cant produce a chapter then a verse..

If you do not accept the challenge..then you make your choice.
If you accept the challenge and fail,as surely you will,but still lie,,then you **** yourself.

And assuredly this challenge applies 1400 years ago till now.

[Curaezipirid]

Salamalaykum

I have a very strong belief in this respect, especially about Injil - the Gospel, but that is not surprising since I was raised Christian.

I always refer to at least three translations of Qur'an into English, if I seek a full comprehension, and then also will always pray to be receiving the correct meaning.

My Qur'an copy is always placed on top of my copy of old and new testament.

I prefer to use a translation of old testament direct from Hebrew.

But for Injil I readily will refer to as many translations as it is possible to source. Any Christian knows that there are massive corruptions been placed into various translations of Gospel, by those whom seek to politicise the meaning of the word of God through His prophets. In some copies the words of Isa are even highlighted in red, and in some congregations one can find oneself being hated by half the congregation for believing in those words, and equally hated by the other half if every refuting any single part of those words. So in mainstream Christian Churches what have we left?

The question is in my mind as simple as the fact that it was through lessons from New Testament and in Jesus, that my childhood faith in God became sustained, and sustainable, to the extent that it has been my belief in Jesus which lead me to Qur'an and Islam.

If we can not give that creedence to the thorough work of Isa, in that there is an aspect in which his teaching has proven to be incorruptible, then what would we be as Muslims.

To know Injil we must simply pray. Find as many translations as you please of New Testament, and in particular Revelations, and go to Mosque and pray for the true meaning of. Yet you might be able to find, like I, that by praying upon Isa's real meaning, every translation and every corruption, all still condenses into the same lesson about what it is that we can not afford not to believe in. Revelations is alike to being the skeleton of all Mohammed's teaching, but that can be found only by prayer upon through Iman in Islam.

Do not let the shaytan deny us Injil by their pronouncements upon it as corrupted, since the strength of Isa's prophesy is that Love is not corruptible.

The words might change but the meaning never will.

Alaykumuassalam

[Balthasar21]

Salaam,

It is a simple thing in Islam.

there is a verse that ask any prson of any faith ,,either individual or a gropup to produce a book like the Quran.

If you cna produce a book..

then a chapter

If you cant produce a chapter then a verse..

If you do not accept the challenge..then you make your choice.
If you accept the challenge and fail,as surely you will,but still lie,,then you **** yourself.

And assuredly this challenge applies 1400 years ago till now.

Beware of what you ask for , because that challenge has been MET .

[Zulkiflim]

Beware of what you ask for , because that challenge has been MET .

Salaam,

LOL..then do post the verse..

Or is something keeping you still?

[Woodrow]

Beware of what you ask for , because that challenge has been MET .

My first reaction is to say that who ever thinks he/she has met the challange, is not very familiar with Arabic. I do not know of any linguistic expert who is knowledgeable in Arabic, who would even make the attempt to meet the challenge.

Please post a source for your claim.

[Balthasar21]

My first reaction is to say that who ever thinks he/she has met the challange, is not very familiar with Arabic. I do not know of any linguistic expert who is knowledgeable in Arabic, who would even make the attempt to meet the challenge.

Please post a source for your claim.

Now Zulkiflim doesn't know anybetter he to busy playing tricknowledge and follow the leader ( But ) .

With all do respect you should know by now I NEVER MAKE Claim's , I never speak on ANYTHING I don't know , If I don't something I'll Say I Don't Know . I already know few here waiting for me to say something and and can't back it up . That's why I Never make Claim . Those who will accept what I post will and those who wont ..Wont . It's just a disussion to me nothing more .

[Woodrow]

Now Zulkiflim doesn't know anybetter he to busy playing tricknowledge and follow the leader ( But ) .

With all do respect you should know by now I NEVER MAKE Claim's , I never speak on ANYTHING I don't know , If I don't something I'll Say I Don't Know . I already know few here waiting for me to say something and and can't back it up . That's why I Never make Claim . Those who will accept what I post will and those who wont ..Wont . It's just a disussion to me nothing more .

True,

That is why I am waiting for you to post your verification as to why you believe the Qur'anic challenge had been met. That would be a truly astonishing feat.

[Balthasar21]

True,

That is why I am waiting for you to post your verification as to why you believe the Qur'anic challenge had been met. That would be a truly astonishing feat.

I'm at work now I will post the information ok .
By the way I don't deal in belief's / faith's / or Believe as you say , Only Fact's .

[Woodrow]

I'm at work now I will post the information ok .
By the way I don't deal in belief's / faith's / or Believe as you say , Only Fact's .

Ok, show me the facts even if you don't believe them.

I would say you believe in very many things, even if you do not believe this statement.

Sorry, but beliefs are an inevitable fact of life, they are like opinions, we all have them. Even if you believe you have no beliefs, that would be your personal belief.

I do not doubt that you have found something that is claimed to have met the Qur'anic challange. If for no reason than as a liguistic study I would love to see it. Remember to meet the challange it has to be written in pure Arabic.

[Balthasar21]

Ok, show me the facts even if you don't believe them.

I would say you believe in very many things, even if you do not believe this statement.

Sorry, but beliefs are an inevitable fact of life, they are like opinions, we all have them. Even if you believe you have no beliefs, that would be your personal belief.

I do not doubt that you have found something that is claimed to have met the Qur'anic challange. If for no reason than as a liguistic study I would love to see it. Remember to meet the challange it has to be written in pure Arabic.

Are you telling me you have Muslims Who Can Speak / Read / Write Pure Arabic as you say ?

Belief & Believe" are two of the most deceptive words in religion. Belief is ignorance. Belief is to ignore the facts, intentionally or ignorantly. If one has to believe, it means he or she does not know, and if one does not know, that is ignorance. Anyone can believe anything and this means that a person can believe, and be 100% wrong. But knowledge is knowing and knowledge is correct information. "To know" gives one confidence, but belief infers doubt.


I'm working on your answer .

[Woodrow]

Are you telling me you have Muslims Who Can Speak / Read / Write Pure Arabic as you say ?

Belief & Believe" are two of the most deceptive words in religion. Belief is ignorance. Belief is to ignore the facts, intentionally or ignorantly. If one has to believe, it means he or she does not know, and if one does not know, that is ignorance. Anyone can believe anything and this means that a person can believe, and be 100% wrong. But knowledge is knowing and knowledge is correct information. "To know" gives one confidence, but belief infers doubt.


I'm working on your answer .

Are you telling me you have Muslims Who Can Speak / Read / Write Pure Arabic as you say ?

We do have a number of Members that do read and write classical and colloquial Arabic plus many of the Muslim members can read the Pure Qur'anic Arabic. At least several of the Muslim members are Hafiz

As far as I know the only example of pure Arabic is the Qur'an. So yes we do have members who can read and write Pure Arabic but only what they read or copy from the Qur'an. So far as I know, nobody else has ever been able to write a single original word in Qur'anic Arabic.

[Balthasar21]

We do have a number of Members that do read and write classical and colloquial Arabic plus many of the Muslim members can read the Pure Qur'anic Arabic. At least several of the Muslim members are Hafiz

As far as I know the only example of pure Arabic is the Qur'an. So yes we do have members who can read and write Pure Arabic but only what they read or copy from the Qur'an. So far as I know, nobody else has ever been able to write a single original word in Qur'anic Arabic.

In the famous Orthodox Sunni Muslim dictionary entitled '' Dictionary Of Islam '' Arabic is described as '' By Reason Of It's Incomparable Excellence Is Called Al Lughah . Of The Language . '' Very little has been written about the origing of the so-called Arabic language . However , It is clear that Arabic is not a language , It is a dialect composed of many borrowed words from other languages . As a matter of fact . 50% of The Arabic language is foreign word from other dialects of The Semitic Family . This is something that most Muslims don't want to admit .

Now , Getting back to the point , In the original Qur'anic script you will not find the letters ; Baa , Taa,Thaa . Dhal , Zay , Sheen ,Daad , Zaa , Ghiyn , or Qaf , Again these letters weren't found because there were originally , No Nuqta Dots , On the letters . If The Nuqtas were not addded to the letters , Most people could not tell the difference bettween A Baa , Taa , And Thaa
. The same applies to the letters Sheen , And Siyn , Daad , And Saad , And the likes . As you place The Nuqta over different letters , It changes the meaning of the word . Take a look at the following chart .

Word .......... Variations Of Word
Hamada .......... Dahaba
Hamadha.......... Dhahaba
Khamada ......... Dahata
Khamadha......... Dhahata
Jamada ......... Dahata
Hamadha ........ Dhahatha

The Dots that did appear , Were the systems that Muslims brought about in the name of preseriving The Qur'an , Only made things more difficult for readers of The Qur'an . This happened because they were trying to bring A Primitive document into Modern times . Arabic was controlled by Poets , and The Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) was not a poet . In fact , The Qur'an speaks against them ( Qur'an 69 ; 41 , 36 ; 69 ) . Thus , His book was not receiving any respect . So , It became necessary to improve upon the words of By Men . And Muslims are so blind , That they can't see the Evil in that . The Qur'an claims of itself to be '' Total Complete '' And '' Without Any Doubt '' ( Qu'an 2 ; 1 ) .

It claims to be A '' Clear '' Message ( Qur'an 15 ; 1 ) . Yet , They had to improve upon it with their grammatical system , Which makes it impossible for anyone to fully understand ; Which leaves them the right to interpret it the way they wish by creating meaning for each word to fit into their newly formed Judaic Christian Sect Islam . Muslims will have to admit that they don't have the Original Qur'an . The Qur'an that they hold in their hands today . Is Not the Original . Ask any Sincere Muslim , Do they have the Original Koran , They will say '' We Have The Oldest Copy Of The Koran '' Or This Qur'an Has No Doubt In It '' However ( Oldest Does Not Mean Original ) and The Qur'an does have doubt in the form of many mistakes . Sorry , But it has been proven that it does . The Qur'an that you hold in your hand .

Today has been proven fallible . It does have mistakes in The Arabic , And mistranslations in The English , Contradictions , And the mistakes go on and on . And being that Muslims don't have The Original Quraan , They have no foundation for their Religion without it . Some Muslims have a habit of talking about The Qur'an like it is so unique or Original , And it comes from Judaic and Christian teachings and books .

( The very Qur'an puts forth A 1400 Year Old Challenge To Produce A Book Or A Chapter Or A Verse Like It ; Claiming That It Is Impossible For Anyone With The Help Of All The Pages And Al The Ink In The World . To Produce One Verse . Chapter Or The Whole Book Like It . And This Request Was Made In Several Places In Qur'an 52 ; 34 , 17 ; 88 , 11 ; 13 and 2 ; 23 . Well Guess What ? It Took Many Years For Anyone To Take The Challenge Seriously . But When They Did . The Challenge Was Met In The Year 1987 A.D. In A Book Entitled '' The Life Of The Messiah In A Classical Arabic Tongue '' By Abdo . You Can Acquite This Book From The Zwemer Institure , P.O.Box 385 , Altadena California U.S.A. The Qur'an Eloquence Was Met By A Great Poet From Lebanon By A Man Named Kahlil Gibran In A Book He Wrote Entitled '' The Prophet '' And The Muslims World Thought It Could Not Be Done ) .

Christians mocked the very style of The Qur'an , Phrases and The Tasmiyya . This goes to show that it can be done and that Anybody Can '' Produce The Like Thereof '' The Book is divided into 30 Chapters and is comprised of verses compiled from The Gospels of four Disciples ; Matthew , Mark , Luke , And John . According to the author , The book was written to show Muslims that The Challenge they have been making for 1400 years . Has finally been Met ,


I'll Stop Here.

[Woodrow]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balthasar21
In the famous Orthodox Sunni Muslim dictionary entitled '' Dictionary Of Islam '' Arabic is described as '' By Reason Of It's Incomparable Excellence Is Called Al Lughah . Of The Language . '' Very little has been written about the origing of the so-called Arabic language . However , It is clear that Arabic is not a language , It is a dialect composed of many borrowed words from other languages . As a matter of fact . 50% of The Arabic language is foreign word from other dialects of The Semitic Family . This is something that most Muslims don't want to admit .

Now , Getting back to the point , In the original Qur'anic script you will not find the letters ; Baa , Taa,Thaa . Dhal , Zay , Sheen ,Daad , Zaa , Ghiyn , or Qaf , Again these letters weren't found because there were originally , No Nuqta Dots , On the letters . If The Nuqtas were not addded to the letters , Most people could not tell the difference bettween A Baa , Taa , And Thaa
. The same applies to the letters Sheen , And Siyn , Daad , And Saad , And the likes . As you place The Nuqta over different letters , It changes the meaning of the word . Take a look at the following chart .

Word .......... Variations Of Word
Hamada .......... Dahaba
Hamadha.......... Dhahaba
Khamada ......... Dahata
Khamadha......... Dhahata
Jamada ......... Dahata
Hamadha ........ Dhahatha

The Dots that did appear , Were the systems that Muslims brought about in the name of preseriving The Qur'an , Only made things more difficult for readers of The Qur'an . This happened because they were trying to bring A Primitive document into Modern times . Arabic was controlled by Poets , and The Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) was not a poet . In fact , The Qur'an speaks against them ( Qur'an 69 ; 41 , 36 ; 69 ) . Thus , His book was not receiving any respect . So , It became necessary to improve upon the words of By Men . And Muslims are so blind , That they can't see the Evil in that . The Qur'an claims of itself to be '' Total Complete '' And '' Without Any Doubt '' ( Qu'an 2 ; 1 ) .

It claims to be A '' Clear '' Message ( Qur'an 15 ; 1 ) . Yet , They had to improve upon it with their grammatical system , Which makes it impossible for anyone to fully understand ; Which leaves them the right to interpret it the way they wish by creating meaning for each word to fit into their newly formed Judaic Christian Sect Islam . Muslims will have to admit that they don't have the Original Qur'an . The Qur'an that they hold in their hands today . Is Not the Original . Ask any Sincere Muslim , Do they have the Original Koran , They will say '' We Have The Oldest Copy Of The Koran '' Or This Qur'an Has No Doubt In It '' However ( Oldest Does Not Mean Original ) and The Qur'an does have doubt in the form of many mistakes . Sorry , But it has been proven that it does . The Qur'an that you hold in your hand .

Today has been proven fallible . It does have mistakes in The Arabic , And mistranslations in The English , Contradictions , And the mistakes go on and on . And being that Muslims don't have The Original Quraan , They have no foundation for their Religion without it . Some Muslims have a habit of talking about The Qur'an like it is so unique or Original , And it comes from Judaic and Christian teachings and books .

( The very Qur'an puts forth A 1400 Year Old Challenge To Produce A Book Or A Chapter Or A Verse Like It ; Claiming That It Is Impossible For Anyone With The Help Of All The Pages And Al The Ink In The World . To Produce One Verse . Chapter Or The Whole Book Like It . And This Request Was Made In Several Places In Qur'an 52 ; 34 , 17 ; 88 , 11 ; 13 and 2 ; 23 . Well Guess What ? It Took Many Years For Anyone To Take The Challenge Seriously . But When They Did . The Challenge Was Met In The Year 1987 A.D. In A Book Entitled '' The Life Of The Messiah In A Classical Arabic Tongue '' By Abdo . You Can Acquite This Book From The Zwemer Institure , P.O.Box 385 , Altadena California U.S.A. The Qur'an Eloquence Was Met By A Great Poet From Lebanon By A Man Named Kahlil Gibran In A Book He Wrote Entitled '' The Prophet '' And The Muslims World Thought It Could Not Be Done ) .

Christians mocked the very style of The Qur'an , Phrases and The Tasmiyya . This goes to show that it can be done and that Anybody Can '' Produce The Like Thereof '' The Book is divided into 30 Chapters and is comprised of verses compiled from The Gospels of four Disciples ; Matthew , Mark , Luke , And John . According to the author , The book was written to show Muslims that The Challenge they have been making for 1400 years . Has finally been Met ,


I'll Stop Here.

Nice bit of cut and paste. Actually it is a good piece. However, please post a link to the source as we do take plagarism very seriously and that article is copyrighted.

Now getting back and clearing the smoke from the room. Where is your example that the Qur'anic challenge was met? You merely posted reference to a book. I want to see an example of the Arabic Text you claim met the challange.

Quote:
Balthasar21
Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

It is a simple thing in Islam.

there is a verse that ask any prson of any faith ,,either individual or a gropup to produce a book like the Quran.

If you cna produce a book..

then a chapter

If you cant produce a chapter then a verse..

If you do not accept the challenge..then you make your choice.
If you accept the challenge and fail,as surely you will,but still lie,,then you **** yourself.

And assuredly this challenge applies 1400 years ago till now.

Beware of what you ask for , because that challenge has been MET .

I will admit Gibran was a great writer, but I doubt if even he would claim that his writing met the Challenge. I believe I still have a copy of "The Prophet" in Arabic I will try to find it and see if I can copy a few pages and post them as a gif and let you judge for yourself.

[Woodrow]

I no longer have my copy of "The Prophet" I checked through my books I still do have. I guess it was one that got lost when I lost my house.

But I did find it on line in it's original. Here you can read it yourself in it's original Arabic. Now you tell me if you honestly believe that even approaches any Qur'anic form, rythm or beauty. Also it is in Syriac Arabic and full of many grammatical flaws.

Check it out for yourself.

http://tyros.leb.net/gibran/indexar.html

But I do thank you for getting me started on this. It is a beautiful bit of Arabic Poetry, but I doubt if any Arabic speaker, even non-Muslim ones would classify it on the same level as the Qur'an.

[Balthasar21]

I no longer have my copy of "The Prophet" I checked through my books I still do have. I guess it was one that got lost when I lost my house.

But I did find it on line in it's original. Here you can read it yourself in it's original Arabic. Now you tell me if you honestly believe that even approaches any Qur'anic form, rythm or beauty. Also it is in Syriac Arabic and full of many grammatical flaws.

Check it out for yourself.

http://tyros.leb.net/gibran/indexar.html

But I do thank you for getting me started on this. It is a beautiful bit of Arabic Poetry, but I doubt if any Arabic speaker, even non-Muslim ones would classify it on the same level as the Qur'an.

Those are really interested can order the book .
Well Guess What ? It Took Many Years For Anyone To Take The Challenge Seriously . But When They Did . The Challenge Was Met In The Year 1987 A.D. In A Book Entitled '' The Life Of The Messiah In A Classical Arabic Tongue '' By Abdo . You Can Acquite This Book From The Zwemer Institure , P.O.Box 385 , Altadena California U.S.A. The Qur'an Eloquence Was Met By A Great Poet From Lebanon By A Man Named Kahlil Gibran In A Book He Wrote Entitled ''


And We'll let them see if Challenge Has / Was Met , Let them be the judge if what I post cut-paste . After they have read the book It's only FAIR Right ! Remember Zulkiflim ask of this not me .


I knew way before I post this you wouldn't accept it this was expected , Your Muslims Your not going to agree this , You think I didn't know this going to happen .

Going to your favorite website Doesn't change thing book have already been written .

[Balthasar21]

Woodrow , Question


Do Muslims Worship The Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) .

[جوري]

No we don't!

[Balthasar21]

No we don't!

Are you sure ?

[Zulkiflim]

Now Zulkiflim doesn't know anybetter he to busy playing tricknowledge and follow the leader ( But ) .

With all do respect you should know by now I NEVER MAKE Claim's , I never speak on ANYTHING I don't know , If I don't something I'll Say I Don't Know . I already know few here waiting for me to say something and and can't back it up . That's why I Never make Claim . Those who will accept what I post will and those who wont ..Wont . It's just a disussion to me nothing more .

Salaam,

I just wish to point out that you did make an allegation or rather a claim ..that muslim are supposed to read the Bible.

We muslim as one here,,say NO..
Bt you say Yes.

So in short you were making a claim,an unjustified claim..but to you is justified.

And even after we hav told you your CLAIMS are wrong,you still persist in believing.

So in ignorance you strated,in rebellion you ended.

[جوري]

pls don't patronize me!

[Zulkiflim]

Those are really interested can order the book .
Well Guess What ? It Took Many Years For Anyone To Take The Challenge Seriously . But When They Did . The Challenge Was Met In The Year 1987 A.D. In A Book Entitled '' The Life Of The Messiah In A Classical Arabic Tongue '' By Abdo . You Can Acquite This Book From The Zwemer Institure , P.O.Box 385 , Altadena California U.S.A. The Qur'an Eloquence Was Met By A Great Poet From Lebanon By A Man Named Kahlil Gibran In A Book He Wrote Entitled ''


And We'll let them see if Challenge Has / Was Met , Let them be the judge if what I post cut-paste . After they have read the book It's only FAIR Right ! Remember Zulkiflim ask of this not me .


I knew way before I post this you wouldn't accept it this was expected , Your Muslims Your not going to agree this , You think I didn't know this going to happen .

Going to your favorite website Doesn't change thing book have already been written .

Salaam,

Then may ia ask,,Who say it was met?

LOLO..i am trully interested in this.

[NoName55]

:sl:

pls don't patronize me!

Why not ignore the jacka$$es?

wa-salaam alaikum

N.B. I know, now, that site policy and aim is to save people thru dialogue but my contention is that there is no saving the shayaateen for they are single mindedly determined to corrupt, failing that they resort to mocking to provoke a reaction.

[Zulkiflim]

Woodrow , Question


Do Muslims Worship The Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) .

salaam,

No we dont,,

Now a question,just now you said you only post and ask on FACTS..

Pls provide the facts that say we muslim worhsip Propeht Muhammad saw?

Unless you wish to change the subject again..

[Balthasar21]

Salaam,

Then may ia ask,,Who say it was met?

LOLO..i am trully interested in this.

Order the book if your not afraid ok . Maybe you'll learning something beside being silly .

[جوري]

I happen to very familiar with the work of Khalil GIbran both in Arabic and English, here is an excerpt from one of his poems..How is it like the Quran?
A Tear And A Smile
I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart
For the joys of the multitude.
And I would not have the tears that sadness makes
To flow from my every part turn into laughter.

I would that my life remain a tear and a smile.

A tear to purify my heart and give me understanding
Of life's secrets and hidden things.
A smile to draw me nigh to the sons of my kind and
To be a symbol of my glorification of the gods.

A tear to unite me with those of broken heart;
A smile to be a sign of my joy in existence.

I would rather that I died in yearning and longing than that I live Weary and despairing.

Personally I like the work of Antonio Machado the most, even above baudelaire's fleur du mal , which I thought epitomized poetic genius.. yet Machado captures the heart and soul of a poet in a few simple lines and can be very much appreciated in the simple poem
The wind, one brilliant day


The wind, one brilliant day, called

to my soul with an odor of jasmine.


"In return for the odor of my jasmine,

I'd like all the odor of your roses."


"I have no roses; all the flowers

in my garden are dead."


"Well then, I'll take the withered petals

and the yellow leaves and the waters of the fountain."


The wind left. And I wept. And I said

"What have you done with the garden that was entrusted to you ?"

Being a native Arabic speaker, and a poet myself as I have in the way of 73 poems copyrighted, I haven't found the work of any man or woman to be comparable to that of the Quran-- I have even read some of the early works the Arabs brought forth to meet with the challenge of the Quran, like the poem
Al feel,
Al feel, wama adrak ma'alfeel zilomoho taweel wa zhylho qaseer,
oh how it rhymes, but of pure nonsense!...
Bottom line is, this is the sort of crap you can sell to fools like Alapiana1 who'd readily buy it and slap it on various forums, over here we'd just rip into your BS.

peace!

[Balthasar21]

:sl:

Why not ignore the jacka$$es?

wa-salaam alaikum

N.B. I know, now, that site policy and aim is to save people thru dialogue but my contention is that there is no saving the shayaateen for they are single mindedly determined to corrupt, failing that they resort to mocking to provoke a reaction.

My My little felow do you cuss in the masjid like that , Or just here where you can get away with it because your so-call Muslim

[NoName55]

Jacka$$ is another name for a foolish person who is as stubborn as a donkey like creature.And no I dont curse in masjid or anywhere else, Allah is the one who curses a shaitan like you. BTW I am housebound and unable to attend Masjid

edit:
P.S my post was addressed to my sister and not to you.

[Balthasar21]

salaam,

No we dont,,

Now a question,just now you said you only post and ask on FACTS..

Pls provide the facts that say we muslim worhsip Propeht Muhammad saw?

Unless you wish to change the subject again..

I do believe you change the subject when you ask the above question didn't you step on your lip this time didn't You . LOLOLOLOLOLOL Now When they order the book that can thank you for puting there business in the street ,

[Balthasar21]

Jacka$$ is another name for a foolish person who is as stubborn as a donkey like creature.And no I dont curse in masjid or anywhere else, Allah is the one who curses a shaitan like you. BTW I am housebound and unable to attend Masjid

edit:
P.S my post was addressed to my sister and not to you.

nonames < says > Allah is the one who curses a shaitan like you .


Ever though Allah curse you but of your mouth .

[جوري]

In the famous Orthodox Sunni Muslim dictionary entitled '' Dictionary Of Islam '' Arabic is described as '' By Reason Of It's Incomparable Excellence Is Called Al Lughah . Of The Language . '' Very little has been written about the origing of the so-called Arabic language . However , It is clear that Arabic is not a language , It is a dialect composed of many borrowed words from other languages . As a matter of fact . 50% of The Arabic language is foreign word from other dialects of The Semitic Family . This is something that most Muslims don't want to admit .

Now , Getting back to the point , In the original Qur'anic script you will not find the letters ; Baa , Taa,Thaa . Dhal , Zay , Sheen ,Daad , Zaa , Ghiyn , or Qaf , Again these letters weren't found because there were originally , No Nuqta Dots , On the letters . If The Nuqtas were not addded to the letters , Most people could not tell the difference bettween A Baa , Taa , And Thaa
. The same applies to the letters Sheen , And Siyn , Daad , And Saad , And the likes . As you place The Nuqta over different letters , It changes the meaning of the word . Take a look at the following chart .

Word .......... Variations Of Word
Hamada .......... Dahaba
Hamadha.......... Dhahaba
Khamada ......... Dahata
Khamadha......... Dhahata
Jamada ......... Dahata
Hamadha ........ Dhahatha
.

Wish I had read this none sense earlier I'd have spared everyone so much time
here we go really quickly now since I want to get to bed
let's take بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِِ
as an ex. shall we
the first letter of bism whether or not having the dot on the B would still be read as bism, it wouldn't make sense any other way, there is no tism, there is no thism-- the second letter which is a seem more of a c than an S would still be read as b--sm, not bishm as a sheen would be the only other thing resembling the seen. wouldn't make good grammatical sense-- the next is Allah of course needs no punctuation, the next from there is Ar'rahman, would still not be read anything other than ar rahman since there no other letters like noon whether the noon had the dot on top of not a noon is smaller than a ta or a tha but if we were to ignore the shape of the noon with or without the dot, if we were to confuse them with the other words, would still make no sense as there is no such thing as bism ar rahmat or bism ar'rhmath, the next is ar'rheem, and the two dots under the yaa, couldn't be mistaken for anything else, as again whether we confuse it with a ba, the only other thing with a dot on the bottom, it would be arheeb and there is no such word in Arabic as raheeb... hope that takes care of your nonsense in a nutshell.. tashkeel in Arabic didn't give the words a different meaning, it simply made it easier on non-Arabic speakers. Any Arabic speaker (myself included) would tell you it makes no difference whatsoever... You want to go Arabic one one one? I have absolutely no reservation, bring it on!
though, I am convinced you are in need of a beano and benzodiazepines concoction .. perhaps tomorrow you can do better? but I doubt it!

peace!

[جوري]

Jacka$$ is another name for a foolish person who is as stubborn as a donkey like creature.And no I dont curse in masjid or anywhere else, Allah is the one who curses a shaitan like you. BTW I am housebound and unable to attend Masjid

edit:
P.S my post was addressed to my sister and not to you.

My preceptors always taught me, there is nothing more dangerous than little knowledge... it misconstrues and loudly the little it knows-- it exudes pompousness and stands on ignorance! a little wind comes its way and it blows, so my advise is don't feed the dog and it will die!

:w:

[Balthasar21]

Wish I had read this none sense earlier I'd have spared everyone so much time
here we go really quickly now since I want to get to bed
let's take بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِِ
as an ex. shall we
the first letter of bism whether or not having the dot on the B would still be read as bism, it wouldn't make sense any other way, there is no tism, there is no thism-- the second letter which is a seem more of a c than an S would still be read as b--sm, not bishm as a sheen would be the only other thing resembling the seen. wouldn't make good grammatical sense-- the next is Allah of course needs no punctuation, the next from there is Ar'rahman, would still not be read anything other than ar rahman since there no other letters like noon whether the noon had the dot on top of not a noon is smaller than a ta or a tha but if we were to ignore the shape of the noon with or without the dot, if we were to confuse them with the other words, would still make no sense as there is no such thing as bism ar rahmat or bism ar'rhmath, the next is ar'rheem, and the two dots under the yaa, couldn't be mistaken for anything else, as again whether we confuse it with a ba, the only other thing with a dot on the bottom, it would be arheeb and there is no such word in Arabic as raheeb... hope that takes care of your nonsense in a nutshell.. tashkeel in Arabic didn't give the words a different meaning, it simply made it easier on non-Arabic speakers. Any Arabic speaker (myself included) would tell you it makes no difference whatsoever... You want to go Arabic one one one? I have absolutely no reservation, bring it on!
though, I am convinced you are in need of a beano and benzodiazepines concoction .. perhaps tomorrow you can do better? but I doubt it!

peace!

My my are we upset LOLOLOLOL
Those who will seek out the book will know the real dead , Those who don't will still have doubt .

[Zulkiflim]

Order the book if your not afraid ok . Maybe you'll learning something beside being silly .

Salaam,

I am sorry are you going back on your word?

You did say you post and do not make claim BUT BASED ON FACTS

So surely you should have the facts on hand before you make such a claim.

So pls impress on us your oknowledge,share with us who say it has been met..

[Zulkiflim]

I do believe you change the subject when you ask the above question didn't you step on your lip this time didn't You . LOLOLOLOLOLOL Now When they order the book that can thank you for puting there business in the street ,

Salaam,

You changed the subject and asked a different question.

So pls provide the FACTS to your claims.

Do prove yourself to be true to your word

So pls provide the Facts that say we muslim worhsip Propeht Muhammad saw?

[Balthasar21]

My preceptors always taught me, there is nothing more dangerous than little knowledge... it misconstrues and loudly the little it knows-- it exudes pompousness and stands on ignorance! a little wind comes its way and it blows, so my advise is don't feed the dog and it will die!

:w:

To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity

[Woodrow]

Those are really interested can order the book .
Well Guess What ? It Took Many Years For Anyone To Take The Challenge Seriously . But When They Did . The Challenge Was Met In The Year 1987 A.D. In A Book Entitled

You Can Acquite This Book From The Zwemer Institure , P.O.Box 385 , Altadena California U.S.A. The Qur'an Eloquence Was Met By A Great Poet From Lebanon By A Man Named Kahlil Gibran In A Book He Wrote Entitled ''


And We'll let them see if Challenge Has / Was Met , Let them be the judge if what I post cut-paste . After they have read the book It's only FAIR Right ! Remember Zulkiflim ask of this not me .


I knew way before I post this you wouldn't accept it this was expected , Your Muslims Your not going to agree this , You think I didn't know this going to happen .

Going to your favorite website Doesn't change thing book have already been written .

The book " '' The Life Of The Messiah In A Classical Arabic Tongue '' By Abdo " is making the claim that Gibran's book "The Prophet" is what had met the Challange. I have posted a link to The original "The Prophet" in it's original Arabic as written by Gibran. I am even offering for you to judge for yourself if it had met the challenge. I did give you a hint it was not written in Qur'anic Arabic, but in Syriac.

I will not deny Gibran was a very good writer and he is on my favorites, I am certain he is a favorite of many who read Arabic and English. But, keep in mind Gibran did not speak Arabic as his native language. He learned it later. His native language was English. The reason I mention that is because apparantly he thought and composed in English and translate his thoughts into Arabic. Which is a hard feat to do and he did do it well. However, like "The Prophet" his writing is much more beautiful in Englsh then it is is Arabic. But, I will concede even in Arabic it is still very nice.

But the fact is it is not Qur'anic Arabic, it does not carry any real rythm in Arabic and the Arabic although enjoyable is somewhat nonsensical compared to his English versions.

The Book by Abdo you have been expounding as having met the challange only says that Gibran's Book "The Prophet' met the challange. The site about the book from which it appears you took much of your information from is a NOI site. I am only posting the link to the site as it does not contain any info you have not mentioned in your post except it shows it's name as being NOI.

Here is the link that you have been forgetting to provide.

http://www.destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35422

Edit: My error the site is not NOI it is a chat forum for Black Americans and basicaly not a religious forum. I jumped to the conlusion it was NOI because of the nature of the first few posts I read. In favor of that site it should be noted that the member Issa121, who had posted the info you appear to have quoted from, has been banned from that site.

[جوري]

My my are we upset LOLOLOLOL
Those who will seek out the book will know the real dead , Those who don't will still have doubt .

is this some sort of clever riddle?

To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity

I have no desire for anything as far as you are concerned. I believe I have addressed each and everyone of your delusions yesterday. I'd not mind dedicating the time, should you bring the Quran, and in Arabic bring me the words that you feel would have been mistaken for others due to the dots on the hiroof. I'll go over it one by one if the need should arise... I have already demonstrated with ease, how "tashkeel", is there for no other reason, other than to help non-native Arabic speakers when reading the Quran, it wouldn't make one bit of a difference to those who recite it daily if a B has no dot on the bottom , two or three or four.

As for your other allegation, again I have demonstrated with ease how no book of poetry has any resemblance to the Quran, and I am very familiar with the works of Khalil Gibran, as I have volumes of his poetry here in my home library, and was part of my curriculum in the Arabic country where I studied for four years, so go ahead and bring me the poems that you think are Quran like, in context, style, meaning and wisdom. Show me their transcendence.. Don't be a fool when cornered not knowing how to get out of the predicament you've created for yourself by other means than saying go read the book. You should discuss what you know with some dexterity, not with a cut and paste! Perhaps at some point you can get over these fits of cachinnation, Now that you've lost all reason to make sense?
peace

[جوري]

The book " '' The Life Of The Messiah In A Classical Arabic Tongue '' By Abdo " is making the claim that Gibran's book "The Prophet" is what had met the Challange. I have posted a link to The original "The Prophet" in it's original Arabic as written by Gibran. I am even offering for you to judge for yourself if it had met the challenge. I did give you a hint it was not written in Qur'anic Arabic, but in Syriac.

I will not deny Gibran was a very good writer and he is on my favorites, I am certain he is a favorite of many who read Arabic and English. But, keep in mind Gibran did not speak Arabic as his native language. He learned it later. His native language was English. The reason I mention that is because apparantly he thought and composed in English and translate his thoughts into Arabic. Which is a hard feat to do and he did do it well. However, like "The Prophet" his writing is much more beautiful in Englsh then it is is Arabic. But, I will concede even in Arabic it is still very nice.

But the fact is it is not Qur'anic Arabic, it does not carry any real rythm in Arabic and the Arabic although enjoyable is somewhat nonsensical compared to his English versions.

The Book by Abdo you have been expounding as having met the challange only says that Gibran's Book "The Prophet' met the challange. The site about the book from which it appears you took much of your information from is a NOI site. I am only posting the link to the site as it does not contain any info you have not mentioned in your post except it shows it's name as being NOI.

Here is the link that you have been forgetting to provide.

http://www.destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35422

Edit: My error the site is not NOI it is a chat forum for Black Americans and basicaly not a religious forum. I jumped to the conlusion it was NOI because of the nature of the first few posts I read. In favor of that site it should be noted that the member Issa121, who had posted the info you appear to have quoted from, has been banned from that site.

I am surprised that Khalil Gibran doesn't have any followers and a religion of his own with a political influence, religious, and ritualistic system-- considering any sort of a nut with two cents worth if a tale ends up having quite a large following. Movement formed the Branch Davidian managed to brain wash enough people into committing suicide-- L. Ron Hubbard's quite the following with Scientology, many other new ones out of India, I forget the name of the guy, was recently on the discovery channel, had 93 cars and a new religion and people were flocking over to his resort to dance away a new form of worship yet here khalil Gibran meets the challenge of the Quran in message, eloquency and poetry etc etc etc-- and doesn't have one follower.. a crying shame!
Anyhow, I have had enough of this topic.
:w:

[Balthasar21]

The book " '' The Life Of The Messiah In A Classical Arabic Tongue '' By Abdo " is making the claim that Gibran's book "The Prophet" is what had met the Challange. I have posted a link to The original "The Prophet" in it's original Arabic as written by Gibran. I am even offering for you to judge for yourself if it had met the challenge. I did give you a hint it was not written in Qur'anic Arabic, but in Syriac.

I will not deny Gibran was a very good writer and he is on my favorites, I am certain he is a favorite of many who read Arabic and English. But, keep in mind Gibran did not speak Arabic as his native language. He learned it later. His native language was English. The reason I mention that is because apparantly he thought and composed in English and translate his thoughts into Arabic. Which is a hard feat to do and he did do it well. However, like "The Prophet" his writing is much more beautiful in Englsh then it is is Arabic. But, I will concede even in Arabic it is still very nice.

But the fact is it is not Qur'anic Arabic, it does not carry any real rythm in Arabic and the Arabic although enjoyable is somewhat nonsensical compared to his English versions.

The Book by Abdo you have been expounding as having met the challange only says that Gibran's Book "The Prophet' met the challange. The site about the book from which it appears you took much of your information from is a NOI site. I am only posting the link to the site as it does not contain any info you have not mentioned in your post except it shows it's name as being NOI.

Here is the link that you have been forgetting to provide.

http://www.destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35422

Edit: My error the site is not NOI it is a chat forum for Black Americans and basicaly not a religious forum. I jumped to the conlusion it was NOI because of the nature of the first few posts I read. In favor of that site it should be noted that the member Issa121, who had posted the info you appear to have quoted from, has been banned from that site.

With all do respect Muslims said it couldn't be done , I do believe when they put that Challange out their , They were speaking to any faith / religion could take the Challange , So yes Challange has been Met . Overstand something if you can ok , I knew when the brother put the question to me he though he was saying something smart , But he step on his Lips on that one .

Let's Be Real Here Ok Me And You Man To Man Ok . 90% Of People Of Religion Be It Islam , Christians Etc Etc . Know Nothing About Their Faith / Belief's Etc . Etc . They Only Accept / Believe What They're Told By Their So-Called Teacher , Because They Fear Being Called Names Like The Devil Etc Etc . And Kick Out Of The Congregation / Masjid Etc .

If They Began To Question About Their Teaching . Now You Will Have Some Say They're Allow To Question Their Teacher . You And I Both Know Thats A Lie , Why You Say , Because As Soon As They Start Questioning Their Teacher Like I Have Done Here They Are Labe A Trouble Maker Etc . And They Will Be Kick Out Of The Congregation / Masjid Etc . They're Never Allow To Ask WHAT / WHEN / WHERE / HOW / WHO , They Never Do Any Research On There Own .

Those 10% Who Do Have Little Knowledge They To Only Know What They Have Been Taught By There Teacher , When These People Are Ask Question , They Go To Their Favorite Website That Agree With Their School Of Though , And Say These Are The True Words Of Allah / God / Yahuwa Etc . And They Will Get Up Set With The Quick-ness , If You Don't Accept What They Call The Words Of The Most High .

Then They Go On A Mission , The insult began saying they're cuting / pasteing Etc Etc Etc Then your banned . Now what I Find Veryyyyyy Funny They're over 80 diffrent Sect of Muslims All Claiming they have the truth , Now If I Ask How Could This Be True , When these 80 diffrent sect have diffrent schools of though , They always have this funny look on there faces .


Now you speak of the N.O.I. Yes , Now I don't agree with some of their teaching but I Do have much RESPECT for The Messenger Elijah Muhammad For What He Did For The Nubian People Here In The West ,

Back To The Post At Hand Those Who Really Want To See If The Challenge Have Been Met Will Seek Out The Book For Themselves . And Judge For Themselves , And Not Fear Of Judgement From Other . As I Have Said Many Time In My Post Here I'm Not Here To Convert ANYONE HERE people can Agree or Disagree . I Have no heaven / hell to put them in , So relaxxxxx

[جوري]

With all do respect Muslims said it couldn't be done , I do believe when they put that Challange out their , They were speaking to any faith / religion could take the Challange , So yes Challange has been Met .

How has it been met, on what level? let's have a keen critical analysis bring it on!

[Woodrow]

With all do respect Muslims said it couldn't be done , I do believe when they put that Challange out their , They were speaking to any faith / religion could take the Challange , So yes Challange has been Met . Overstand something if you can ok , I knew when the brother put the question to me he though he was saying something smart , But he step on his Lips on that one .

Let's Be Real Here Ok Me And You Man To Man Ok . 90% Of People Of Religion Be It Islam , Christians Etc Etc . Know Nothing About Their Faith / Belief's Etc . Etc . They Only Accept / Believe What They're Told By Their So-Called Teacher , Because They Fear Being Called Names Like The Devil Etc Etc . And Kick Out Of The Congregation / Masjid Etc .

I find it difficult to beleive that Muslims accept because it is what they have been told. Many Muslims do not attend nor have taken any form of Islamic classes. We are encourged to seek and learn on our own. Those of us who are reverts had to learn through much self research and to come to a personal understanding that we have found verifiable fact.

If They Began To Question About Their Teaching . Now You Will Have Some Say They're Allow To Question Their Teacher . You And I Both Know Thats A Lie , Why You Say , Because As Soon As They Start Questioning Their Teacher Like I Have Done Here They Are Labe A Trouble Maker Etc . And They Will Be Kick Out Of The Congregation / Masjid Etc . They're Never Allow To Ask WHAT / WHEN / WHERE / HOW / WHO , They Never Do Any Research On There Own .

How the heck does a Muslim get kicked out of a Mosque? We do not belong to any type of membership in one. Most Mosques have no record as to who comes.

Those 10% Who Do Have Little Knowledge They To Only Know What They Have Been Taught By There Teacher , When These People Are Ask Question , They Go To Their Favorite Website That Agree With Their School Of Though , And Say These Are The True Words Of Allah / God / Yahuwa Etc . And They Will Get Up Set With The Quick-ness , If You Don't Accept What They Call The Words Of The Most High .

As a Muslim I have gone through many instructors, each of whm I have selected myself based upon which I felt they could teach me. I do not necessarily agree fully with any of them, but I do use their words as guidance to help me understand the Qur'an and the Ahadith. My original Arabic language teachers were not even Muslim.

Then They Go On A Mission , The insult began saying they're cuting / pasteing Etc Etc Etc Then your banned . Now what I Find Veryyyyyy Funny They're over 80 diffrent Sect of Muslims All Claiming they have the truth , Now If I Ask How Could This Be True , When these 80 diffrent sect have diffrent schools of though , They always have this funny look on there faces .

I take cutting and pasting very seriously. It is permissable for a person to cut and paste. However, when cutting and pasting is done it is essential that a link be given that goes back to the source. There is no problem with cutting and pasting, but there is a such thing as violation of copy right laws for failure to acknowldge and credit the source. If a person gets banned because they are cutting and pasting it is not because they are cutting and pasting it is because they are breaking the law and engaging in plagarism.

We do not deny there are many who call themselves Muslim but who do not follow Islam. the simple fact is if a person does not follow Islam they are not a Muslim no matter what they call themselves.

Now you speak of the N.O.I. Yes , Now I don't agree with some of their teaching but I Do have much RESPECT for The Messenger Elijah Muhammad For What He Did For The Nubian People Here In The West ,

The only quarral I have with NOI is that they are often mistaken as being Muslim and some people believe they are Muslim

Back To The Post At Hand Those Who Really Want To See If The Challenge Have Been Met Will Seek Out The Book For Themselves . And Judge For Themselves , And Not Fear Of Judgement From Other . As I Have Said Many Time In My Post Here I'm Not Here To Convert ANYONE HERE people can Agree or Disagree . I Have no heaven / hell to put them in , So relaxxxxx

The book itself is written in English, so the book it self has not met the challenge. The book is claiming that Gibran's book "The Prophet" is what met the Challange. As I have stated before It is one of my favorite books, and I have even posted a link to the book in it's original Arabic so you can see for your self that there is not one word in it that has met the Qur'anic Challenge.

And why do I have to buy the Book you recommend as I can have had read it here at the local library.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Balthasar,may i remind you thn you said you make claims based on facts.

SO Pls provide the facts ....instead of changing the subject.

Can we get one clear answer from him?

Who say the Challenge has been met?
Can you provide us with the linguist who claim so.

And why does he say that muslim worship Propeht Muhammad saw.
Pls provide FACTS for you to make this claim..

[Woodrow]

My my are we upset LOLOLOLOL
Those who will seek out the book will know the real dead , Those who don't will still have doubt .

After reading through the posts and looking through various links. Perhaps you did not mean the English version of that book. As the book you are recommending is basicaly just an opinion as to how the Challenge was met. The actual book written in 1987 and presented as a challenge to the Qur'an is the Arabic: "Sirit al-Maseeh" Which was written specifically for Arabic Christians. It was an attempt to re-write the Gospels of the New Testement into Qur'anic Arabic.

Here is a Brief review of it in PDF Format:

http://www.ijfm.org/PDFs_IJFM/21_1_P...12_Harley3.pdf

I am now searching for an Arabic version of it and if I find one I will post it. I want you to judge for your self if it has met the challenge.

I suspect that you may not understand enough Arabic to actually comprehend what the Qur'anic challenge is actually asking. I should ask you to tell us in your own words what you think it means. To myself it means that an original writting similar to the Qur'an can not be written in Qur'anic Arabic.

[Balthasar21]

I find it difficult to beleive that Muslims accept because it is what they have been told. Many Muslims do not attend nor have taken any form of Islamic classes. We are encourged to seek and learn on our own. Those of us who are reverts had to learn through much self research and to come to a personal understanding that we have found verifiable fact.



How the heck does a Muslim get kicked out of a Mosque? We do not belong to any type of membership in one. Most Mosques have no record as to who comes.


As a Muslim I have gone through many instructors, each of whm I have selected myself based upon which I felt they could teach me. I do not necessarily agree fully with any of them, but I do use their words as guidance to help me understand the Qur'an and the Ahadith. My original Arabic language teachers were not even Muslim.



I take cutting and pasting very seriously. It is permissable for a person to cut and paste. However, when cutting and pasting is done it is essential that a link be given that goes back to the source. There is no problem with cutting and pasting, but there is a such thing as violation of copy right laws for failure to acknowldge and credit the source. If a person gets banned because they are cutting and pasting it is not because they are cutting and pasting it is because they are breaking the law and engaging in plagarism.

We do not deny there are many who call themselves Muslim but who do not follow Islam. the simple fact is if a person does not follow Islam they are not a Muslim no matter what they call themselves.




The only quarral I have with NOI is that they are often mistaken as being Muslim and some people believe they are Muslim




The book itself is written in English, so the book it self has not met the challenge. The book is claiming that Gibran's book "The Prophet" is what met the Challange. As I have stated before It is one of my favorite books, and I have even posted a link to the book in it's original Arabic so you can see for your self that there is not one word in it that has met the Qur'anic Challenge.

And why do I have to buy the Book you recommend as I can have had read it here at the local library.

Why are we danceing around here , When the Challange was put out their it was put their for anyone who felt they could do it , It matter not if it was a Christians or whoever it was met . The brother who call him self saying something smart , Challange me to prove if it happen , not knowing I knew what he was saying , It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to know that Muslims Will Never Admit the Challange has been Met rather it was in Arabic / Hebrew / Greek / Latin / English , With it many Dialect / Translation , Muslims themselves can't even agree to what translation it pure / origianal Arabic .

And example of how translator can't agree on the meaning of words is the word '' Taqwa . Qur'an 71 ; 3 use the '' Ataquwhu which means '' Tremble And Fear Him '' . However . When they translate it to english , They have all kinds of meaning for this one word .


According to the Maulana Muhammad Ali Version 1917 A.D. Which is the version '' The Ahmadiyyah Sect and the N.O.I. Uses , Taqwa is translated as
'' Keep Your Duty ''


According to the Abdullah Yusuf Ali version 1938 A.D. Which is the version The Orthodox Sunni Muslims and The Bilialian sect use . Taqwa is translated as '' Keep Your Duty ''


According to the Dr. Rashad Khakifa version 1981 A.D. Which is the version '' Submitters Perspective uses , Taqwa is translated as '' Work Righteousness ''


According to the Bounteous Koran version 1984 A.D. Which is the version that '' Al Azhar University and many other sects use '' Taqwa is translated as '' Venerate Him ''


According to the Holy Quran By M.H. Shakir , 1985 A.D. Which is the version The Shi'ite sect uses . Taqwa is Translated as '' Careful Of ( Your Duty To )


According to the Holy Qur'an By S.V. Mir Ahmed Ali version , 1988 A.D. Which is the another version of The Shi'ites , The Holy Ahlul Bait , Uses , Taqwa is translated as '' Fear Him ''


I'm sure you can go to your Favorite website and find many more Translator Who also have diffrent meaning for words , And Diffrent schools of though to back up what your trying to prove .


The bottom line here as it was in The Begining The challenge has been Met . Trying to draw me into these word game doesn't change that it has been Met


It only prove what I been saying about the diffrent School Of Though . It's Trying To Tell Christians Yashu'a , Isa Jesus Christ Isn't God . I Stand On What I Said And I Will Not Change It No Mattter What Verse Of Arabic / Hebrew / Greek / Latin / English , With it many Dialect / Translation .

In The Above You Say You Have Read The Book So you knew When I Post It The challenge has been Met . But Your Not Accepting It Because you don't accet the Translation . LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL I'm Done With The Game .

[Balthasar21]

After reading through the posts and looking through various links. Perhaps you did not mean the English version of that book. As the book you are recommending is basicaly just an opinion as to how the Challenge was met. The actual book written in 1987 and presented as a challenge to the Qur'an is the Arabic: "Sirit al-Maseeh" Which was written specifically for Arabic Christians. It was an attempt to re-write the Gospels of the New Testement into Qur'anic Arabic.

Here is a Brief review of it in PDF Format:

http://www.ijfm.org/PDFs_IJFM/21_1_P...12_Harley3.pdf

I am now searching for an Arabic version of it and if I find one I will post it. I want you to judge for your self if it has met the challenge.

I suspect that you may not understand enough Arabic to actually comprehend what the Qur'anic challenge is actually asking. I should ask you to tell us in your own words what you think it means. To myself it means that an original writting similar to the Qur'an can not be written in Qur'anic Arabic.

Thank you but the brother who Challenge me to prove if the Challenge had been Met , Didn't say what language but I new what he meant Arabic .

This Is What Put Forth 1400 Years Ago


The very Qur'an puts forth A 1400 Year Old Challenge To Produce A Book Or A Chapter Or A Verse Like It ; Claiming That It Is Impossible For Anyone With The Help Of All The Pages And Al The Ink In The World . To Produce One Verse . Chapter Or The Whole Book Like It . And This Request Was Made In Several Places In Qur'an 52 ; 34 , 17 ; 88 , 11 ; 13 and 2 ; 23 .

The brother was trying to put me on the spot LOLOLOLOLOLOL

[جوري]

Thank you but the brother who Challenge me to prove if the Challenge had been Met , Didn't say what language but I new what he meant Arabic .

This Is What Put Forth 1400 Years Ago


The very Qur'an puts forth A 1400 Year Old Challenge To Produce A Book Or A Chapter Or A Verse Like It ; Claiming That It Is Impossible For Anyone With The Help Of All The Pages And Al The Ink In The World . To Produce One Verse . Chapter Or The Whole Book Like It . And This Request Was Made In Several Places In Qur'an 52 ; 34 , 17 ; 88 , 11 ; 13 and 2 ; 23 .

The brother was trying to put me on the spot LOLOLOLOLOLOL

the challenge was to bring at least one sura like the quran be it the shortest sura, suret Al-kawthar which is only three verses long. And the challenge hasn't been met. If it has it would have made international news, not a paroxysm of lols on a tiny Islamic forum.
Do you speak Arabic? if you can please carry out a conversation with me now. and explain to me how Khalil has met the challenge?

this should take care of your other problem of what taqwa means

تَقْوَى مـــصــــــدر تُقَى
fear of God , godliness , God-fearingness , devoutness , pietism , religiosity , religiousness

Sakhr Arabic/English dictionary

Again I ask, are we done here?

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

I wish he would answer a straight question.
how can we have a discussion he dont POST FACTS?

He evades every direct question..

Seems he dont follow his mantra that he only makes claim with FACTS but is not prepared to back it up

[Walter]

Salaam,

It is a simple thing in Islam.

there is a verse that ask any prson of any faith ,,either individual or a gropup to produce a book like the Quran.

If you cna produce a book..

then a chapter

If you cant produce a chapter then a verse..

If you do not accept the challenge..then you make your choice.
If you accept the challenge and fail,as surely you will,but still lie,,then you **** yourself.

And assuredly this challenge applies 1400 years ago till now.

This is incredible. The start of yet another off topic challenge that has resulted in pages and pages of off topic banter. This thread has been corrupted by over 12 pages of off topic banter - more than half of the thread.

Zulkiflim, why did you not simply start a new thread? GOOD GRIEF!!!!!


Hi MustafaMc:

Your replies seem to indicate that you have not read my recent postings to Al Habeshi on this thread. However, I cannot blame you as it is VERY TIME CONSUMING to search through the off topic banter that this thread has attracted.

1. It was already agreed that 7:89-90 should have been 6:89-90.

2. I do not agree that 6:155-156 refers to the Koran. Please see my reply to Al Habeshi #153 and 158 (if you can find them).

3. You noted: "Yes, these Books existed at his time along with their errors and changes. These are the very reasons that we are NOT instructed to study the Bible for guidance!"

Please provide some evidence from the Koran where you are not instructed to study the Bible for guidance.

Please also provide some evidence that the Bible contains significant errors or changes. Actually, if you respond to this (off topic) request, then I shall start a new thread so that we can discuss it further - SO THAT WE DO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THE CORRUPTION OF THIS THREAD!

Regards,
Grenville

[Zulkiflim]

Thank you but the brother who Challenge me to prove if the Challenge had been Met , Didn't say what language but I new what he meant Arabic .

This Is What Put Forth 1400 Years Ago


The very Qur'an puts forth A 1400 Year Old Challenge To Produce A Book Or A Chapter Or A Verse Like It ; Claiming That It Is Impossible For Anyone With The Help Of All The Pages And Al The Ink In The World . To Produce One Verse . Chapter Or The Whole Book Like It . And This Request Was Made In Several Places In Qur'an 52 ; 34 , 17 ; 88 , 11 ; 13 and 2 ; 23 .

The brother was trying to put me on the spot LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Salaam,

Cna you pls say clearly WHO SAY the CHALLENGE HAS BEEN MET?



Can you porvide the FACTS? instead of making claims?

[Zulkiflim]

This is incredible. The start of yet another off topic challenge that has resulted in pages and pages of off topic banter. This thread has been corrupted by over 12 pages of off topic banter - more than half of the thread.

Zulkiflim, why did you not simply start a new thread? GOOD GRIEF!!!!!


Hi MustafaMc:

Your replies seem to indicate that you have not read my recent postings to Al Habeshi on this thread. However, I cannot blame you as it is VERY TIME CONSUMING to search through the off topic banter that this thread has attracted.

1. It was already agreed that 7:89-90 should have been 6:89-90.

2. I do not agree that 6:155-156 refers to the Koran. Please see my reply to Al Habeshi #153 and 158 (if you can find them).

3. You noted: "Yes, these Books existed at his time along with their errors and changes. These are the very reasons that we are NOT instructed to study the Bible for guidance!"

Please provide some evidence from the Koran where you are not instructed to study the Bible for guidance.

Please also provide some evidence that the Bible contains significant errors or changes. Actually, if you respond to this (off topic) request, then I shall start a new thread so that we can discuss it further - SO THAT WE DO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THE CORRUPTION OF THIS THREAD!

Regards,
Grenville

Salaam,

Umm you did read the post precedeing that right?

So it is incontinuation of the thread.

And if you look elsewhere the many corruption in the bible is laready in disussion in other thread,do visit them as you will..

Or if you need to make another thread the mod can later on just lump them up into 1

[Woodrow]

This is incredible. The start of yet another off topic challenge that has resulted in pages and pages of off topic banter. This thread has been corrupted by over 12 pages of off topic banter - more than half of the thread.

Agreed.

I hope I moved it all to this new thread.

[Balthasar21]

Agreed.

I hope I moved it all to this new thread.

Can you tell me what's off topic / question post ?????????????
And why is my name being use here ?

[Woodrow]

Can you tell me what's off topic / question post ?????????????
And why is my name being use here ?

This series of questions and replies all have to do with the Qur'anic challange. They where posted in the thread that was about the topic "Are Muslims required to read the Bible?" They where not questions about if Muslim's are required to read the Bible. Therefore they were off topic.

The reason your name is shown as the thread starter is because your post was the first one in this string of posts that where moved to make the new thread.

[AB517]

Salaam,

Umm you did read the post precedeing that right?

So it is incontinuation of the thread.

And if you look elsewhere the many corruption in the bible is laready in disussion in other thread,do visit them as you will..

Or if you need to make another thread the mod can later on just lump them up into 1

lol ... corruption of the bible ... Open your heart and see with your mind my child. A piece of god is in both. Be guided by the loving and merciful side of these books.
Read both ... two tiny pieces give me a li' bigger tiny piece.
Don't be afraid the truth, God will guide and help you.
AB

[Balthasar21]

What Is the Injiyl mentioned in the musilms qur'aan ?

[Balthasar21]

What Is The Injiyl Mentioned In The Muslim Qur'aan ?


Some will say , The Gospel ,
The Qur'aan , Which means '' The Two Reading '' From the root word Qara'a Was written by men , Is making a major mistake by trying to convince people that Jesus , Isa Son Maryam received The Gospel , Al Injiyl , As they call it ; When in fact he did not , In The Qur'aan , The New Testament is referred to as , Al Injiyl , Which is inaccurate and wrong . They use

Qur'aan Chapter 2 ; 136 , That reads ; '' Quuluuu 'Aamannaa Billaahi Wa Maaa 'Unzila 'Ilaynaa Wa Maaa 'Unzila 'Illaaa 'Ibraahiima Wa 'Ismaa - Iila Wa 'Ishaaqa Wa Ya ' Quuba Wal - Asbaati Wa Maaa 'Uutiya Muusaa Wa 'Iissa Wa Maaa 'Uutiyannabiyyuuna Mir - Rabbihim , Laa Nufarriqu Bayna 'Ahadimminhum, Wa Nahnu Lahuu Muslimuun , ''

First of all , This is not A Correct translation , But again you will be able to see the point by looking at the Arabic translation , Which is below And it translates ; '' Say Ye ; '' We Believe In Allah , And The Revelation Given To Us , And To Abraham , Ishmael , Isaaac , Jacob , And The Tribe , And That Given To Moses And Jesus And That Given Ti [ All ] Prophets From Their Lord , We Make No Difference Between One And Another Of Them And We Bow To Allah [ In Islam ] .

Qur'aan 2 ; 136 . And I Quote ; Qoo - loo ( You all are to say , Tell ) Aaman - naa ( We have faith ) Be - Al - Lahi ( In the souce ) Wa ( And ) Maaa ( What , That which ) Unzila ( He sent down ) Ilaynaa ( To , Towards us ) Wa ( And ) Ismaa - ' Eel ( Ishmael , Allah or El Hears ) Wa ( And ) Ishaaqa ( Isaac he who laughs ) Wa ( and ) Ya'aqooba ( Jacob supplanter) Wa ( And ) Al - Asbaati ( The tribes ) Wa ( And ) Maaa ( What , That Which ) Oo - Tiya ( Was given ) Moosaa
( Moses , Drawn forth ) Wa ( And ) 'Eesaa ( Jesus Savior ) Wa ( And ) Maa ( What , That which ) Oo -Tiya ( Was given ) Al -Nabe - Yoona ( The newsbearers ) Min ( From ) Rab - Bihim ( Their Sustainer ) Laa ( Don't , Not ) Nufar - Riqu ( We Make A Distinction ) Bayna ( Between ) Ahadin ( Anyone ) Minhum ( From them ) .
Tell them this , ( Muhammad ) ; We , ( Muhammad and his followers ) Have faith in Allah , And what he senr down to us , ( The Qur'an ) And what he sent down to Abrawhawm and Yishmael and Yitschaq , And Ya'aqob and the tribes and what was given to Mosheh , ( The Torah ) And Isa / Yashu'a - ( The Revelations , And what was given to The Anbiyaa , 'Newsbearers ; From their Rabb , Master we ( Muhammad and his followers ) Do not Nufarriqu , 'Make any distinction ' between any of them and we Muslimuwn '' Surrender in peace ' To him ( Right Translation In Ashuric / Syriac Arabic )

( Mistranslation By Yusef Ali 1938 A.D. )
'Say ye ; ''We believe in Allah , And the revelation given to us , And to Abraham , Isma'il , Isaac , Jacob , And the tribes , And that given to Moses ande Jesus , And thats given to ( All ) prophets from their lord ; We make no difference between one and another of them ; And we bow to Allah ( Islam ) .

This Part Here Is What We Are Concermed With ; ( Wa Maaa 'Uutiya ( Given ) Muusaa ( Moses ) Wa 'Lysaa ( Jesus ) .

This part of the above verse translates '' And what was given Moses and Jesus '' . Now , Qur'aan 3 ; 3 clearky states ; Nazzala ' Alaykal - Kitaaba Bil - Haqqi Musaddiqal - Limaa Bayna Yadayhi Wa 'Anzalat - Tawraata Wa - Injiil ,

Which they translate as ; '' It Is He Who Sent Down To Thee ( Step By Step ) In Truth The Book Confirming What Went Before It . And He Sent Down The Law ( Of Moses ) And The Gospel ( Of Jesus ) , According to the Yusef Ali translation .

The Yusef Ali translation ( Is Incorrect ) , But the point is still clear if you look at the transiterated Arabic above . The implication is that Moses got The Torah written as '' At Tawraat in the Ashuric / Syriac Arabic , And Jesis got The Gospel written 'Al Injiyl' In the above , And Jesus never did receive A scripture , Again Allah or the writers of The Qur'aan made A Mistake !!!!

[Balthasar21]

Why In The Quraan , It Says Jesus Received The Injiyl , While What The Muslims Call The Injiyl , Says Something Totally Differents ?

[Balthasar21]

Why does the qur'aan have diffrent name for the same prophets that are mentioned in The Bible ???

[Woodrow]

Why does the qur'aan have diffrent name for the same prophets that are mentioned in The Bible ???

That is a simple one. They are different translations for the names. The names you read in the Bible are the English translations of the original names if you read an Arabic Language version of the Bible you will Find that the names correspond with the names used in the Qur'an. so that you may verify that here is the Bible written in Arabic.

ﻦﻳﻮﻜﺗ 1

1 فِي الْبَدْءِ خَلَقَ اللهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ،

2 وَإِذْ كَانَتِ الأَرْضُ مُشَوَّشَةً وَمُقْفِرَةً وَتَكْتَنِفُ الظُّلْمَةُ وَجْهَ الْمِيَاهِ، وَإِذْ كَانَ رُوحُ اللهِ يُرَفْرِفُ عَلَى سَطْحِ الْمِيَاهِ،

3 أَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِيَكُنْ نُورٌ». فَصَارَ نُورٌ،

4 وَرَأَى اللهُ النُّورَ فَاسْتَحْسَنَهُ وَفَصَلَ بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَ الظَّلامِ.

5 وَسَمَّى اللهُ النُّورَ نَهَاراً، أَمَّا الظَّلامُ فَسَمَّاهُ لَيْلاً. وَهَكَذَا جَاءَ مَسَاءٌ أَعْقَبَهُ صَبَاحٌ، فَكَانَ الْيَوْمَ الأَوَّلَ.

6 ثُمَّ أَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِيَكُنْ جَلَدٌ يَحْجُزُ بَيْنَ مِيَاهٍ وَمِيَاهٍ».

7 فَخَلَقَ اللهُ الْجَلَدَ، وَفَرَّقَ بَيْنَ الْمِيَاهِ الَّتِي تَحْمِلُهَا السُّحُبُ وَالْمِيَاهِ الَّتِي تَغْمُرُ الأَرْضَ. وَهَكَذَا كَانَ.

8 وَسَمَّى اللهُ الْجَلَدَ سَمَاءً. ثُمَّ جَاءَ مَسَاءٌ أَعْقَبَهُ صَبَاحٌ فَكَانَ الْيَوْمَ الثَّانِي.

9 ثُمَّ أَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِتَتَجَمَّعِ الْمِيَاهُ الَّتِي تَحْتَ السَّمَاءِ إِلَى مَوْضِعٍ وَاحِدٍ، وَلْتَظْهَرِ الْيَابِسَةُ». وَهَكَذَا كَانَ.

10 وَسَمَّى اللهُ الْيَابِسَةَ أَرْضاً وَالْمِيَاهَ الْمُجْتَمِعَةَ بِحَاراً. وَرَأَى اللهُ ذَلِكَ فَاسْتَحْسَنَهُ.

11 وَأَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِتُنْبِتِ الأَرْضُ عُشْباً وَبَقْلاً مُبْزِراً، وَشَجَراً مُثْمِراً فِيهِ بِزْرُهُ الَّذِي يُنْتِجُ ثَمَراً كَجِنْسِهِ فِي الأَرْضِ». وَهَكَذَا كَانَ.

12 فَأَنْبَتَتِ الأَرْضُ كُلَّ أَنْوَاعِ الأَعْشَابِ وَالْبُقُولِ الَّتِي تَحْمِلُ بُزُوراً مِنْ جِنْسِهَا، وَالأَشْجَارَ الَّتِي تَحْمِلُ أَثْمَاراً ذَاتَ بُذُورٍ مِنْ جِنْسِهَا. وَرَأَى اللهُ ذَلِكَ فَاسْتَحْسَنَهُ.

For the rest here is the link:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=1&version=28

[Balthasar21]

That is a simple one. They are different translations for the names. The names you read in the Bible are the English translations of the original names if you read an Arabic Language version of the Bible you will Find that the names correspond with the names used in the Qur'an. so that you may verify that here is the Bible written in Arabic.

ﻦﻳﻮﻜﺗ 1

1 فِي الْبَدْءِ خَلَقَ اللهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ،

2 وَإِذْ كَانَتِ الأَرْضُ مُشَوَّشَةً وَمُقْفِرَةً وَتَكْتَنِفُ الظُّلْمَةُ وَجْهَ الْمِيَاهِ، وَإِذْ كَانَ رُوحُ اللهِ يُرَفْرِفُ عَلَى سَطْحِ الْمِيَاهِ،

3 أَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِيَكُنْ نُورٌ». فَصَارَ نُورٌ،

4 وَرَأَى اللهُ النُّورَ فَاسْتَحْسَنَهُ وَفَصَلَ بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَ الظَّلامِ.

5 وَسَمَّى اللهُ النُّورَ نَهَاراً، أَمَّا الظَّلامُ فَسَمَّاهُ لَيْلاً. وَهَكَذَا جَاءَ مَسَاءٌ أَعْقَبَهُ صَبَاحٌ، فَكَانَ الْيَوْمَ الأَوَّلَ.

6 ثُمَّ أَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِيَكُنْ جَلَدٌ يَحْجُزُ بَيْنَ مِيَاهٍ وَمِيَاهٍ».

7 فَخَلَقَ اللهُ الْجَلَدَ، وَفَرَّقَ بَيْنَ الْمِيَاهِ الَّتِي تَحْمِلُهَا السُّحُبُ وَالْمِيَاهِ الَّتِي تَغْمُرُ الأَرْضَ. وَهَكَذَا كَانَ.

8 وَسَمَّى اللهُ الْجَلَدَ سَمَاءً. ثُمَّ جَاءَ مَسَاءٌ أَعْقَبَهُ صَبَاحٌ فَكَانَ الْيَوْمَ الثَّانِي.

9 ثُمَّ أَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِتَتَجَمَّعِ الْمِيَاهُ الَّتِي تَحْتَ السَّمَاءِ إِلَى مَوْضِعٍ وَاحِدٍ، وَلْتَظْهَرِ الْيَابِسَةُ». وَهَكَذَا كَانَ.

10 وَسَمَّى اللهُ الْيَابِسَةَ أَرْضاً وَالْمِيَاهَ الْمُجْتَمِعَةَ بِحَاراً. وَرَأَى اللهُ ذَلِكَ فَاسْتَحْسَنَهُ.

11 وَأَمَرَ اللهُ : «لِتُنْبِتِ الأَرْضُ عُشْباً وَبَقْلاً مُبْزِراً، وَشَجَراً مُثْمِراً فِيهِ بِزْرُهُ الَّذِي يُنْتِجُ ثَمَراً كَجِنْسِهِ فِي الأَرْضِ». وَهَكَذَا كَانَ.

12 فَأَنْبَتَتِ الأَرْضُ كُلَّ أَنْوَاعِ الأَعْشَابِ وَالْبُقُولِ الَّتِي تَحْمِلُ بُزُوراً مِنْ جِنْسِهَا، وَالأَشْجَارَ الَّتِي تَحْمِلُ أَثْمَاراً ذَاتَ بُذُورٍ مِنْ جِنْسِهَا. وَرَأَى اللهُ ذَلِكَ فَاسْتَحْسَنَهُ.

For the rest here is the link:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=1&version=28

Thank you for your answer . Here the overstanding I have .


Why does the qur'aan have diffrent name for the same prophets that are mentioned in The Bible ???

The Bible
1 . Enoch ( Genesis 4 ; 17 )
2 . Terah ( Genesis 11 ; 24 )
3 . Jethro ( Exodus 3 ; 1 )

The Qur'an
1. Idriys ( The Qur'an 19 ; 56 )
2 . Aza ( The Qur'an 6 ; 74 )
3 . Shuaib ( The Qur'an 7 ; 85 )

Why do they have different names in the Qur'an than the Bible when there is an Arabic equivalent to each one ? For example the '' Enoch = Idriys , And '' Terah = Aza , Are found in the Arabic Bible . However , the names Adam ( Genesis 2 ; 19 , The Qur'an 2 ; 31 , Abraham Genesis 26 ; 24 , The Qur'an 2 ; 118 , and '' Moses Exodus 19 ; 2 , The Qur'an were not changed in the Qur'an , they were kept the same as in the Torah , Again , Why were some name changed in the Quran When the Bible clearly states what their name are ?

The Prophet Enoch ( 3404 - 3039 B.C.E. ) or is it Idriys
The Prophet Jethro ( 1660 - 1490 B.C.E. ) or is it Shuaib
The Prophet Elijah ( 942 - 884 B.C.E. ) or is it Ilyaas

Why is The Prophet Elijah name spelled three different ways in the Qur'an

Ilyaas - The Qur'an 37 ; 123
Ilyasa'a - The Qur'an 6 ; 86 , 38 ; 48
Ilyaasiyn - The Qur'an 37 ; 130

[Balthasar21]

Does The Qur'an 3; 45 , say That the name of Jesus will be the Anointed one ?

[Woodrow]

Thank you for your answer . Here the overstanding I have .


Why does the qur'aan have diffrent name for the same prophets that are mentioned in The Bible ???

The Bible
1 . Enoch ( Genesis 4 ; 17 )
2 . Terah ( Genesis 11 ; 24 )
3 . Jethro ( Exodus 3 ; 1 )

The Qur'an
1. Idriys ( The Qur'an 19 ; 56 )
2 . Aza ( The Qur'an 6 ; 74 )
3 . Shuaib ( The Qur'an 7 ; 85 )

Why do they have different names in the Qur'an than the Bible when there is an Arabic equivalent to each one ? For example the '' Enoch = Idriys , And '' Terah = Aza , Are found in the Arabic Bible . However , the names Adam ( Genesis 2 ; 19 , The Qur'an 2 ; 31 , Abraham Genesis 26 ; 24 , The Qur'an 2 ; 118 , and '' Moses Exodus 19 ; 2 , The Qur'an were not changed in the Qur'an , they were kept the same as in the Torah , Again , Why were some name changed in the Quran When the Bible clearly states what their name are ?

The Prophet Enoch ( 3404 - 3039 B.C.E. ) or is it Idriys
The Prophet Jethro ( 1660 - 1490 B.C.E. ) or is it Shuaib
The Prophet Elijah ( 942 - 884 B.C.E. ) or is it Ilyaas

Why is The Prophet Elijah name spelled three different ways in the Qur'an

Ilyaas - The Qur'an 37 ; 123
Ilyasa'a - The Qur'an 6 ; 86 , 38 ; 48
Ilyaasiyn - The Qur'an 37 ; 130

Perhaps the Question should be why do the Prophets in the Modern Christian Bible all have medieval Elizabethan English names and not Semitic names as all of the Prophets(PBUT) mentioned were Semitic people and the common languages spoken were Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic, but the Bible has no Hebrew, Aramaic or Arabic names for the Prophets(PBUT). Probably for the same reason the Bible portrays all of the Biblical people as White Anglo-Saxon that speak fluent Elizabethan English?

Why is The Prophet Elijah name spelled three different ways in the Qur'an

Ilyaas - The Qur'an 37 ; 123
Ilyasa'a - The Qur'an 6 ; 86 , 38 ; 48
Ilyaasiyn - The Qur'an 37 ; 130



The name is the same in all three. Ilya the prefixes after the name denote an action or a state of being not a different name. Keep in mind, Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic grammar is constructed much different than the construction of English Grammar. Sentences are not made in the same form and act or state of being or possession is indicated by suffixes and prefixes added to the root word or name.

[Woodrow]

Does The Qur'an 3; 45 , say That the name of Jesus will be the Anointed one ?

It says:

3:45. (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah). Y S C


Pickthal's Quran Translation

[Balthasar21]

Perhaps the Question should be why do the Prophets in the Modern Christian Bible all have medieval Elizabethan English names and not Semitic names as all of the Prophets(PBUT) mentioned were Semitic people and the common languages spoken were Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic, but the Bible has no Hebrew, Aramaic or Arabic names for the Prophets(PBUT). Probably for the same reason the Bible portrays all of the Biblical people as White Anglo-Saxon that speak fluent Elizabethan English?

Why is The Prophet Elijah name spelled three different ways in the Qur'an

Ilyaas - The Qur'an 37 ; 123
Ilyasa'a - The Qur'an 6 ; 86 , 38 ; 48
Ilyaasiyn - The Qur'an 37 ; 130



The name is the same in all three. Ilya the prefixes after the name denote an action or a state of being not a different name. Keep in mind, Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic grammar is constructed much different than the construction of English Grammar. Sentences are not made in the same form and act or state of being or possession is indicated by suffixes and prefixes added to the root word or name.

You man a very good point because Yashu'a never spoke Greek / Latin / English , The language he spoke was Aramic , Also Muhammad didn't speak the many forms of Arabic That being spoken today .

Thank you for your answer . :)

[Balthasar21]

If the prophet Muhammad was so special why was the title '' Soul '' of Allah only attributed to the messiah Jesus ?