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Karina
06-03-2007, 12:01 PM
We believe most of the things we believe about the world, because others have told us to. True?

How is it that if someone told you that a spaceship full of purple aliens was just about to land in your garden you would require a good amount of solid evidence before you BELIEVED this. Without evidence, surely you would think this to be madness, insanity even.

Yet, when we are conditioned to believe that there is an ultimate creator of our universe who can hear all our thoughts and will determine our fate on the day of judgment, we accept without question, without evidence?? :?

Why do we join the masses, why do billions of us believe what a neutral lone-observer would find proposterous - is it sanity in numbers??

Why do you believe without question? Why do you accept what is blatently un-testable and cannot be proven?

My logical, common-sense side of me is just curious, that's all........

:) ,
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Woodrow
06-03-2007, 10:20 PM
Just my views. Others may or may not agree.


Originally Posted by Karina
We believe most of the things we believe about the world, because others have told us to. True?
I don't believe that is my reason.



How is it that if someone told you that a spaceship full of purple aliens was just about to land in your garden you would require a good amount of solid evidence before you BELIEVED this. Without evidence, surely you would think this to be madness, insanity even.
True

Yet, when we are conditioned to believe that there is an ultimate creator of our universe who can hear all our thoughts and will determine our fate on the day of judgment, we accept without question, without evidence?? :?
I spent much of my life doubtying and was not satistied until I got hit with evidence.

Why do we join the masses, why do billions of us believe what a neutral lone-observer would find proposterous - is it sanity in numbers??
The beliefs of other people is not much concern to me. I believe each person is free to follow what ever evidence they see.

Why do you believe without question? Why do you accept what is blatently un-testable and cannot be proven?
I questioned for most of my life.

Originally Posted by Karina
My logical, common-sense side of me is just curious, that's all........


:) ,
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Talha777
06-03-2007, 11:06 PM
Bismillahi Arrahmani Arraheem

Originally Posted by Karina
Why do we join the masses, why do billions of us believe what a neutral lone-observer would find proposterous - is it sanity in numbers?? Why do you believe without question? Why do you accept what is blatently un-testable and cannot be proven?
You are correct that sanity cannot be determined by numbers. No matter how popular a belief is, it's popularity in it of itself is not proof that it is correct.

Consequently, Islam is not a blind faith. Muslims do not believe in Islam for the sake of believing. Allah Most Exalted says in the Holy Quran says:

Say thou: This is my way: I do invite unto Allah - on evidence clear as the seeing with one's eyes - I and whoever follows me. Glory to Allah. and never will I join gods with Allah. (Yusuf 12:108)

The way to Allah, the religion of Islam, is not a blind faith, but rather, the Seal of the Prophets, Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) invited people to accept Islam on literally visible evidence. Our Lord is so Merciful and understanding that He would not let us live our lives with our limited rationality and limited faculties without revealing Himself to us, and revealing His guidance for us so we can live righteously, make this world a better place, and be worthy of salvation. The miracles which our Holy Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) was given by Allah were eye witnessed to by multitudes of people. Something other-worldly and truly extraordinary occurred in the deserts of Arabia some fourteen hundred years ago.

The Holy Quran itself is the miracle of miracles. The signs and clear irrefutable evidence is filled in every verse. Prophecies have been so precisely fulfilled, that no reasonable person can deny that the author of the Holy Quran is someone who is Omnicient, All-Knowing, who has knowledge of the unseen, including events that will occur in the future. A human being cannot know such things, cannot predict such things.

The thought-provoking evidence about the existence of Allah is pointed to in the Holy Quran as well. Two major arguments, scientific arguments, were given in the Holy Quran, a book revealed to the desert-dwellers of Arabia fourteen hundred years back:

That to thy Lord is the final goal (An-Najm 53:42)

Meaning, for every cause, there is an effect, and this chain is terminated in the Lord (Rab), to whom the final goal belongs.

He said: Our Lord is He Who gave to each (created) thing its form and nature, and further, gave (it) guidance. (Ta Ha 20:50)

If one reflects on this verse itself, one can see how true and precise it is. Every single organism and creation of Allah is designed in such a way to live in it environment and survive. The design of the animals, their "special features", defensive mechanisms, etc., all which they need to survive and propogate their species, are bestowed by an Omnicient Creator. This cannot be regarded as an accident of nature. Similarly with the universe, and its creation. The universe is a created thing, but to this day no scientist can explain what caused the universe to come into existence. The only coherent and logical anwer is found in revelation: Their apostles said: Is there a doubt about Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth? (Ibrahim 14:10)

Returning to the subject of beliefs and their legitimacy on the basis of popularity, you cannot deny that the majority of humanity, though they do not worship the same god necessarily, or have the same beliefs, nevertheless have an inclination toward seeking the Lord and cultivating a relationship with Him. This natural inclination of man towards spirituality and religion is due to the design of the soul (nafs), and this design is mentioned directly in the Holy Quran (Al-Araf 7:172).

And so essentially I believe that Allah does exist, and not only does He exist, there is ample historical evidence and eye witness testimony that He revealed Himself to mankind through the agency of prophets, and these prophets performed great miracles by the will of Allah, miracles and signs which cannot be scientifically or rationally explained, except that they are from Heaven.
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Balthasar21
06-03-2007, 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
We believe most of the things we believe about the world, because others have told us to. True?

How is it that if someone told you that a spaceship full of purple aliens was just about to land in your garden you would require a good amount of solid evidence before you BELIEVED this. Without evidence, surely you would think this to be madness, insanity even.

Yet, when we are conditioned to believe that there is an ultimate creator of our universe who can hear all our thoughts and will determine our fate on the day of judgment, we accept without question, without evidence?? :?

Why do we join the masses, why do billions of us believe what a neutral lone-observer would find proposterous - is it sanity in numbers??

Why do you believe without question? Why do you accept what is blatently un-testable and cannot be proven?

My logical, common-sense side of me is just curious, that's all........

:) ,



Belief's Infers Doubt .
Faith is one thing , knowing is another , You may have faith in your cart , but not know the wheel is loose

This world is divided into two people the so-called Righteous and the Un-righteous , And it's always the so-called Righteous that does the Dividing .
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Abdul Fattah
06-04-2007, 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by Karina
We believe most of the things we believe about the world, because others have told us to. True?

Yet, when we are conditioned to believe that there is an ultimate creator of our universe who can hear all our thoughts and will determine our fate on the day of judgment, we accept without question, without evidence??
When judging truths over falsehoods, we obviously need some criteria to be met, but so far no one methodology has proven to be flawless.

Empirical testing is to limited since not everything can be tested (just think how challenging it becomes to test certain psychological or sociological theories) And even if such a given theory is testable, it is still easy to reach the wrong conclusions from the results of a test. Even in science the testability of theories becomes trickier as we dig deeper.

Another method is Ockham’s razor; it states that explanations shouldn’t be complex beyond necessity. In other words: If there are two different theories explaining a phenomenon and both theories are equally accurate, the simplest explanation is most likely to be true. The problem here is that it’s not always easy to establish whether both theories are actually equally accurate. Furthermore it’s easy to be biased with personal preference when judging which explanation out of the two is “simplest”.

Pragmatism is yet another method to sort out truth from falsehoods. It says to examine the usability of a theory to validate its truthfulness. The most useful city map -the one that gets us where we need to be- will most likely be truthful. This is a very effective way of establishing something is true. After sending a rocket to the moon using nothing more then Newtonian physics, it seems absurd to still question its validity. It is useful, therefore it must be true. But don't forget that although the simplified city map might be easiest one to read; and thus more useful to us, that the detailed map will still bear the closest resemblance to the actual street grid. Newtonian physics might be sufficient to land a rocket on the moon. But when we start examining the world of the very small; we notice it doesn’t suffice. There we need a whole new theory -quantum physics- to describe what’s going on. An embarrassing secret for science is that Quantum mechanics is not compatible with general relativity.

Finally our most basic way of verifying truths -our own logic- on which all other methods rely upon one way or the other; is fallible. We cannot test the logic of anything without first making assumptions. A logical argument without a premise is like math without axioms. An axiom is a proposition that is not susceptible of proof or disproof; its truth is assumed to be self-evident. In mathematics it is a basic assumption about a system from which theorems can be deduced. For example, in geometry where the points and lines in the plane are a system. An axiom would be that given any two distinct points in the plane, there is a unique line through them. This seems self-evident to most people yet there is no known proof for this statement. It’s just an assumption on which our worldly mathematics are based. And there have been people who came up with alternative mathematics relying on different axioms which although very abstract were very logical and sometimes even useful!

We call the sum of all these assumptions we make, upon which we base our logical reasoning, a paradigm. A paradigm isn’t a certainty. Not even in the way a theory is certain. A theory is an explanation of certain events, like Newton’s theory of gravity which describes the relation between different objects with mass. A paradigm is a set of assumptions; that aren’t even meant to be tested. Most of them are made on an unconscious level. They are a necessary evil used by individuals, scientists and even societies on a daily basis. It’s like a simplified map of reality, which allows you to find your way in the chaos of our daily life. The danger within these assumptions lies in the fact that they trigger opinions and new theories. These will on their turn easily produce proof for the original assumption since those assumptions are already build into it. This will eventually build up an impenetrable network of tainted views. Here’s an illustrating conversation between two friends I recently witnessed:

Juliet: See, Romeo once promised me to invite me over to eat fish, but he never did invite me. Goes to show how much a men’s promise is worth.
Romeo: Well the reason I never invited you is because you came by once while I was cooking fish. At this point I asked you to join for diner which you accepted. So I no longer felt the obligation to keep up that promise of “inviting”.
Juliet: You’re an opportunist; you know I wouldn’t remember such things so you just made that up.

Whether or not Romeo had actually once cooked fish for her or not, I do not know. I did find it intriguing however that Juliet -although admitting her own memory is unreliable- prefers to believe that Romeo was lying above the more likely explanation: “she simply forgot”. Apparently she judged that thinking of Romeo as an opportunistic liar made more sense according to her feminist paradigm. Coincidently this very same paradigm -next to initiating the conversation- was also the point of view she tried to defend with this very discussion.

Such a paradigm is a home. It’s a safe haven whenever a thought comes along that looks threatening. It is a reliable friend by whom’s terms you like to discuss. It is a rope when the unknown feels like a black abyss. It’s a fantasy build to protect you from the chaotic world in your daily life. It is the simplified map which is easy to read but unrepresentative.

Ask yourself this simple question: “By what authority are my assumptions better then my neighbor’s? And such assumptions are all around us. They have always been there, and looking at the assumptions of the past, if history is any guide, much that we take for granted today is simply not true.
But how can two views views that are based on two sets of experiences out of the same world become so antagonistic? Why is it so hard to find common ground between them? Well, because the essences of some things aren’t definable in simple words. From the moment you choose a personal description to explain an idea you loose its purity. Since two people can look at the same thing and see something different, referring to it by name isn’t enough. If you want to explain why you see it differently you have to add a context and personal experience to it. But then again, focusing on to much context will send you off topic. And even more importantly, since both parties have a different approach on the subject they will dismiss each others context for being irrelevant. So basically the description of the essence is unrepresentative due to the lack of context, whereas the description of the context is unrepresentative due to the lack of essence.

So how does one eventually define something as true or false? How do we choose our paradigm? Do we even have a choice in it? Which one is the right one? Well, in the end it’s a mater of belief. Which one seems most likely? Which one has the least inconsistency? What does your personal experience tell you? Everyone chooses by their own criteria. What is belief? When is it justified? Is believing equal to knowing? Is knowing equal to believing? Are agnosticism, secularism and atheism also paradigms? And if so, what advantage do they have above theisms?

Well the above questions were retorical, but could you answer just this one, please.

If you only believe what is proven, and not that which is probable, then hypotetically speaking, if there would be a religion which is true, you would still never believe in it?
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glo
06-05-2007, 07:54 AM
Hi Karina

I spent much of my life doubting the religious teachings I received as a child.
I walked away from it for many years, I searched other religions, and found all wanting.

Without going into too much detail, what brought me to the faith I now hold is an experience I had, which I believe to be divine and which left me with a strong and unshakable personal conviction of who God is and how he affects my life.

You are right, I still cannot prove it to anybody.
But personally, for myself, I have tested this experience over and over again. It continues to convince me despite much challenge and questioning from myself and from others.
That's the reason I follow my faith.
That's my personal evidence.
It's nothing to do with 'following the masses'. It is to do with me following what I believe to be God's revelation in my own life.

I cannot provide proof or evidence for others ... they will have to seek and find their own!

Peace :)
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Trumble
06-05-2007, 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
We believe most of the things we believe about the world, because others have told us to. True?
I don't think so. People can tell you what they believe and what they think you should believe, but I don't think they can succesfully tell you to believe something any more than you can tell yourself to believe something.

Obviously the culture and (particularly) family environment you were brought up in have a huge influence on what you are likely to believe, but there are plenty of people here from all the religions represented who were not brought up within the religious tradition they now follow, but discovered the way that suited them, and that they could believe in, for themselves.
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Umar001
06-05-2007, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
How is it that if someone told you that a spaceship full of purple aliens was just about to land in your garden you would require a good amount of solid evidence before you BELIEVED this. Without evidence, surely you would think this to be madness, insanity even.
Let me ask you why would you hold it to be madness? Since we are assessing beliefs, if I'm not mistaken you'd choose to believe that such a statement would be false, how would you come to that conclusion?

Originally Posted by Karina
Yet, when we are conditioned to believe that there is an ultimate creator of our universe who can hear all our thoughts and will determine our fate on the day of judgment, we accept without question, without evidence?? :?
And when we are told that the universe came into being accidentaly or without cause we are to accept it without question, without evidence?

Sounds like this is gonna be a good thread

:) I hope.

Regards

Eesa
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wilberhum
06-05-2007, 08:02 PM
Why do you believe without question?
I think it is part of human nature.
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Karina
06-05-2007, 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I think it is part of human nature.
Do you think we search for comfort at the expense of truth??
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glo
06-05-2007, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I think it is part of human nature.
Hi Wilber

Do you have any personal thoughts as to why humans have a 'need to believe'?
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wilberhum
06-05-2007, 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
Do you think we search for comfort at the expense of truth??
I think we search for comfort because it is comfortable.
I think we don't always accept truth when it makes us uncomfortable.
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wilberhum
06-05-2007, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Hi Wilber

Do you have any personal thoughts as to why humans have a 'need to believe'?
I think it is part of an evolutionary force that helped us cope.
Or maybe god planted it within us.
But my bet is on the former and I think the latter is caused by the former. :skeleton:

But hay, you didn’t think I would destroy my agnosticism and have a definite answer did you? :D :D :D :D

Sorry Glo, I just could not resist.
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glo
06-05-2007, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I think it is part of an evolutionary force that helped us cope.
Or maybe god planted it within us.
But my bet is on the former and I think the latter is caused by the former. :skeleton:

But hay, you didn’t think I would destroy my agnosticism
No, spoken like a true agnostic, Wilber! (I'm proud of you :D)

I liked your reply to Karina, btw. I am sure we all seek refuge in all sorts of comforts at times, instead of turning to the real truth. I am not necessarily thinking about seeking refuge in one's faith, but seeking refuge in alcohol, drugs, TV, fashion, consumerism etc, etc.

Gotta go now ...

Peace
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wilberhum
06-05-2007, 08:27 PM
Glo,
You are too fast. It was a typo. If you look now, it is fixed.
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Woodrow
06-05-2007, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I think it is part of an evolutionary force that helped us cope.
Or maybe god planted it within us.
But my bet is on the former and I think the latter is caused by the former. :skeleton:

But hay, you didn’t think I would destroy my agnosticism and have a definite answer did you? :D :D :D :D

Sorry Glo, I just could not resist.
Hey Wilbur, I do have to agree you do post some sensible stuff that forces me to think.

The only thing that would refute you is the existence of God(swt) and I know I can not post anything that you would accept as irrefutable proof of that.

But, just out of curiosity, what do you believe would be an evolutionary advantage for people to have religious beliefs?
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wilberhum
06-05-2007, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Hey Wilbur, I do have to agree you do post some sensible stuff that forces me to think.

The only thing that would refute you is the existence of God(swt) and I know I can not post anything that you would accept as irrefutable proof of that.

But, just out of curiosity, what do you believe would be an evolutionary advantage for people to have religious beliefs?
I think there are many reasons people invented religions.
One advantage I see, (far too often) is help in handling grief.
A belief in heaven means that your loved one is in a far better place and you can still talk to them. Though I truly doubt the existence of heaven, I still talk to my mom and dad frequently.
The sooner and better you handle your greef, the sooner and better you get back to living.
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Abdul Fattah
06-06-2007, 12:28 AM
I can't speak for other believers, but personally I wouldn't put comfort over truth. When you do that, youi're just lying to yourself. And although I agree you could say the thought of heaven and justice in the afterlife is comforting, you could equally say that the thought of Hell and eternal torture is discomforting. So a theist could just as well dismiss an atheist or agnostic by that very same line of thinking; and claim that they don't believe because the thought of hell is to discomfortable. And yes, I 'm sure there are opportunists out there, who believe whatever suits them. But I think those don't really have true faith.
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wilberhum
06-06-2007, 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
I can't speak for other believers, but personally I wouldn't put comfort over truth. When you do that, youi're just lying to yourself. And although I agree you could say the thought of heaven and justice in the afterlife is comforting, you could equally say that the thought of Hell and eternal torture is discomforting. So a theist could just as well dismiss an atheist or agnostic by that very same line of thinking; and claim that they don't believe because the thought of hell is to discomfortable. And yes, I 'm sure there are opportunists out there, who believe whatever suits them. But I think those don't really have true faith.
I think heaven and hell serve to different agendas.
Besides what I stated, there are many benefits obtained from believing in heaven.
Hell would also have many benefits. Controlling people is only one.
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جوري
06-06-2007, 02:07 AM
You can't control people with either concept... what can man conceive of the punishment of hell? what can he be tempted with as a reward in heaven? further the concept of either places for eternity isn't something that the mind can fathom...

But the mind wants to know! still the mind has its limitations. The mind tempts itself with what it deems logical (No G-D)-- yet it finds that concept in an of itself not so logical since nothing we know can explain how just one single celled organism has come to existence. Let alone all these expansive and varied life forms. Something at the end of that thought will always border upon magical thinking. Man will substitute one magical idea for another more modern that seems a little less magical and deem it "a theory", call the rest deluded, though admittedly on many levels that man is unable to explain or reproduce his theories!

Man might be able to understand through contrast... but you have to have two of each to contrast to--
Perhaps heaven and hell though contrast in "polarity" are still unfathomable to the human mind -- Jenna in itself which conventionally denotes paradise/heaven, literally means that which is shielded from sight in Arabic.. described as what no eyes have ever seen nor ears have head. So maybe we can't really have hope of what it means to go to heaven or hell, but the concept of justice is something that the mind can fathom! And I have no doubt that justice exists even if not in our physical life!
if we had no night time, could you really speak of day? surely one knows of day, but how could one describe it fully without contrasting it to night? and vice versa... just like we have light we have darkness, but could one know what darkness is, if one didn't have light? could one know what evil is, if one didn't have good?
what an amazing thing it is to be alive... and yet we need to know of death to understand life...
Just like we came from nothing into all this beauty, and just like we turn off the light at night to step into darkness and find ourselves through that Petite Morte of sleep in a thousand situation, no two exactly alike, well we one day find ourselves born into a different life...


peace!
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glo
06-06-2007, 05:46 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Glo,
You are too fast. It was a typo. If you look now, it is fixed.
Phew! :phew
Thank you, Wilber.
Freudian slip, perhaps? :D

I have destroyed all evidence ... :)

Peace
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north_malaysian
06-06-2007, 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by Karina
How is it that if someone told you that a spaceship full of purple aliens was just about to land in your garden you would require a good amount of solid evidence before you BELIEVED this. Without evidence, surely you would think this to be madness, insanity even.
I dont believe this because they are no such thing as PURPLE ALIENS. But I'll believe him if he said GREEN ALIENS or SILVER ALIENS.

I think BARNEY is the only purple creature available.

P/S: Dont take it seriously...... I'm just in the mood of giving some bad jokes.:omg:
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Abdul Fattah
06-06-2007, 08:02 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I think heaven and hell serve to different agendas.
Besides what I stated, there are many benefits obtained from believing in heaven.
Hell would also have many benefits. Controlling people is only one.
Yes I agree if there is a Hell it is to give gravity to the rules. If God would say: "Follow these rules, and if you don't, well heck, that 'll be sad, but nothing I can do about it.". Then people would complain: "Where"s the justice?".

But you do agree that Hell, even if it would be only for the sake of control, contradicts your earlier statement that people choice religion for comfort of mind?
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wilberhum
06-06-2007, 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Yes I agree if there is a Hell it is to give gravity to the rules. If God would say: "Follow these rules, and if you don't, well heck, that 'll be sad, but nothing I can do about it.". Then people would complain: "Where"s the justice?".

But you do agree that Hell, even if it would be only for the sake of control, contradicts your earlier statement that people choice religion for comfort of mind?
I find no contradiction. Religion does not have just a single aspect. I can chose to believe in a religion because it gives comfort yet not worry too much about hell because I am a "GOOD Person". Religion is not simple in it's concepts or impacts, nor is the individual attitude of people simple.
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Abdul Fattah
06-06-2007, 01:01 PM
Well there's definitely not a simple straightforward cause and reaction. I can agree to that much. But my objection here would be that (especially in Islam) it's not that easy to say "I'm a good person" and no longer worry about Hell anymore. Because Islam teaches that just being a muslim in name isn't sufficient, and one has to constantly strive and struggle for it. So that's not really my idea of peace of mind.

As a former Atheist who reverted to Islam I can surely testify that peace of mind was definitely not on my agenda when I reverted. Nor did I at that time let my paradigm be chosen by what seemed most comforting.
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Karina
06-06-2007, 06:52 PM
Why do you think that some people will be prepared to kill another human being for their religious beliefs, or at least feel an element of sympathy toward the killer of another person, specifically if it is in the name of "insert a god here".

:cry:

Religious beliefs and faith have a lot to answer for the part they play in the murderous history of the human race, in my observations.
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- Qatada -
06-06-2007, 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
Why do you think that some people will be prepared to kill another human being for their religious beliefs, or at least feel an element of sympathy toward the killer of another person, specifically if it is in the name of "insert a god here".

:cry:

I think it falls into the whole concept of, who is doing what for a good cause etc. Then one needs to define good, and we as muslims know that revelation from God is required to figure out what is good/bad etc., especially in areas where mankind differed.


Religious beliefs and faith have a lot to answer for the part they play in the murderous history of the human race, in my observations.

That's not totally true, not in all cases anyway. Yes, there are people who will use religion to justify their actions, however - these exact actions that the people do aren't really part of the religion, therefore we need to look into the religious texts to verify whether what the person is calling to is good or not.

I.e. In the context of war - killing of innocents isn't permitted in Islaam, nor of women, children, seniors, those who worship in monasteries etc. It is only a fight against the combatants, and the reason for that is to allow people to have their rights without transgressing others, or harming society as a whole.



I.e. In an Islamic rule:

Since the Islamic legal injunctions are aimed at achieving human welfare, they can all be referred back to universal principles which are necessary for human welfare to be secured. These universal principles are:

1. The preservation of life.
2. The preservation of religion.
3. The preservation of reason.
4. The preservation of lineage.
5. The preservation of property.

The Islamic penal system is aimed at preserving these five universal necessities. To preserve life, it prescribes the law of retribution. To preserve religion, it prescribes the punishment for apostasy. To preserve reason, it prescribes the punishment for drinking. To preserve lineage, it prescribes the punishment for fornication. To preserve wealth, it prescribes the punishment for theft. To protect all of them, it prescribed the punishment for highway robbery.


It should therefore become clear to us why the crimes for which Islam for which the Law has prescribed fixed punishments are as follows:

1. Transgression against life (murder or assault).
2. Transgression against property (theft).
3. Transgression against lineage (fornication and false accusations of adultery).
4. Transgression against reason (using intoxicants).
5. Transgression against religion (apostasy).
6. Transgression against all of these universal needs (highway robbery).

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ent-islam.html

Mankind has been given the 5 senses to get a basic understanding, then man has also been given logic by God, but that isn't sufficient. Because with these attributes, man still required something which will help them come together on a common ground. If they don't have common ground, then they will differ, they will dispute, argue, fight, and humanity will fall into chaos and destruction.

So divine revelation is required by the One who created us in order for us to truelly know the difference between good/bad, wrong/right etc. And if we don't have this, then the oppressors will remain oppressors, and the oppressed will remain oppressed.
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wilberhum
06-06-2007, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
Why do you think that some people will be prepared to kill another human being for their religious beliefs, or at least feel an element of sympathy toward the killer of another person, specifically if it is in the name of "insert a god here".

:cry:

Religious beliefs and faith have a lot to answer for the part they play in the murderous history of the human race, in my observations.
It is our tribal nature. Want to know what tribe some one belongs to? Ask, “What are you”? They will usually list there tribal affiliation in importance sequence. If you ask me I will tell you I’m a father and husband who works with computers. Also, I’m an American in my 60’s and I’m agnostic.
By the sequence you can see that I’m much more likely to kill to protect my children and wife than I am willing to kill for god.
There is another attitude humans have. My tribe is superior to your tribe. It is much easier to kill some one who is inferior. That’s why Hitler called the Jews Vermin. During our wars, we didn’t fight the Italians or the Japanese; we fought the Whaps and the Nips. That is also why the “N” word is a no no. It is used to denote inferiority.
But still nothing is simple nor is any part the whole. There is no way to tell if some one kills for there god or if god is the excuse to kill.

As for your conclusion about religion, I agree, it was a major factor in me becoming agnostic.
Reply

Eric H
06-06-2007, 07:43 PM
Greetings and peace be wtih you Karina;
Religious beliefs and faith have a lot to answer for the part they play in the murderous history of the human race, in my observations.
Some years ago there was a serial killer going round killing prostitutes; he was caught and in his defence he said that God told him to kill the prostitutes.

If there is no God then this is a lie.
If there is a loving God then he would not tell a person to murder.

The truthful answer is the guy wanted to kill.

And if there really is a God at some point this man will have to stand before God and try and justify his actions. He will not be in a position to then say God told me, because God will know beyond a doubt what happened.

In the spirit o searching

Eric
Reply

Karina
06-06-2007, 07:48 PM
That's not totally true, not in all cases anyway. Yes, there are people who will use religion to justify their actions, however - these exact actions that the people do aren't really part of the religion, therefore we need to look into the religious texts to verify whether what the person is calling to is good or not.
I'm going back to basics here but, there is one part of our shamed history that recalls the murder of up to 50,000 individuals over 300 years of "witchcraft" persecutions. Medievil Christians seemed almost preoccupied with their neighbours "spell-casting". Only the progression of science has mostly seen an end to this unfounded hatred in the Western world

Oh, this is just ONE instance of which I could probably name another few dozen, where religion has been the cause, the basis, the entire reasoning in the eyes of the majority, that is is okay to torture, murder or see the downright suffering of the non-believer.

Phew.... I got that off my chest!! Anyway - I am not saying that religious beliefs do not also generate an awful lot of love and compassion and understanding, I just wanted to highlight our bloody past as a HUMAN race, of which we should be **** well ASHAMED.

I understand the Islamic stance on peace and love and tolerance, but I also understand it's (sometimes underlying and prone to mis-translation) views on the treatment of non-believers......

Pleasecorrectmeifiamwrong......

PEACE!!!
Reply

wilberhum
06-06-2007, 07:50 PM
If there is a loving God then he would not tell a person to murder.
Why do we always assume god is loving? Since we have no proof that he exists, we surly have no proof of his nature. Depending on how you look at a lot of things, you could come to a different conclusion.

Not what I believe, just recognizing that there is always more that 1 posibility.
Reply

Abdul Fattah
06-06-2007, 07:51 PM
Look at it this way. anything that is powerfull is bound to be abused by malevolent people. Almost every scientific development was first used in destruction. Metal was first used to make spears, the wheel was first applied in (war)chariots and it goes all the way up to general relativity being used for H-bomb. The real question here is not why is religion being abused. But why is even a deformed version so powerfull
Reply

wilberhum
06-06-2007, 08:00 PM
But why is even a deformed version so powerfull
Maybe I'm right. I think every religion is deformed because they are all man made.
Now if anyone wants to kick me out because of what I believe, that would be an act of intollorance. Right?
Reply

- Qatada -
06-06-2007, 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
I understand the Islamic stance on peace and love and tolerance, but I also understand it's (sometimes underlying and prone to mis-translation) views on the treatment of non-believers......

Pleasecorrectmeifiamwrong......

PEACE!!!


Thankyou for your response.


First of all, let's see the rights of non muslims in an Islamic state (which follows the authentic teachings, just take a look:


Rights of Citizens in an Islamic State


Islam protects the rights belonging to the citizens of an Islamic state, whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims.
  • The first is the right to security of life and property. Islam prohibits killing except for that which is done in the due process of law at the hands of a God-fearing court. No government has the right to murder its citizens, openly or secretly, because they oppose its unjust policies and actions or criticize it. Furthermore, Islam confers the right of security of ownership of property.
  • Another right is that of the protection of honor. Under Islamic Law, if one is proved to have said things that could have damaged the reputation and honor of the plaintiff, the accused is declared guilty of defamation — regardless of whether or not the plaintiff is able to prove that he is respectable and honorable in the first place.
  • Citizens of an Islamic state have the right to the sanctity and security of private life. Thus spying on others, reading their mail, tapping their phones, etc., is illegal. Espionage on the life of the individual cannot be justified on moral grounds. In fact, when a government does begin to spy on its own people, the common citizens cannot speak freely even in their own homes, and society begins to suffer from a state of general distrust and suspicion — which in turn leads to more dissatisfaction and eventually unrest.
  • No citizen can be imprisoned unless his guilt has been proven in an open court in which he has the opportunity to defend himself.
  • Citizens have the God-given right to protest against the government’s tyranny, whether that abuse is directed against individuals, groups, or the entire population.
Citizens have absolute and complete equality in the eyes of the law regardless of their religion
  • Islam grants the right of freedom of thought and expression on the condition that it should be used to propagate virtue and truth, not to spread evil and wickedness. Further, no one has the right to use abusive or offensive language in the name of criticism. In fact, the citizen not only has the right of freedom of expression in order to propagate virtue, but also the duty to propagate virtue and stop the spread of evil.
  • Islam gives people the right to freedom of association and formation of parties or organizations, provided that this right is exercised to spread virtue and righteousness, not to spread evil and mischief.
  • Citizens of an Islamic state have the right to freedom of conscience and conviction. Non-Muslim citizens cannot be forced to accept Islam, and no moral, social, or political pressure can be put on them to make them change their minds.
  • Religious sentiments are to be protected. Discussion and debate on religious matters can be held, but these must be conducted in decency with no abusive language. This applies to followers of all faiths.
  • An individual cannot be arrested or imprisoned for the offenses of others. Every person is responsible for his own acts.
  • Citizens have the right to the basic necessities of life. It is the responsibility of the State to provide the basic necessities for the poor and needy, invalid, orphaned, elderly, unemployed, et cetera. Even a dead person with no guardian or heir has the right to a proper burial by the State.
  • The citizens of an Islamic state have absolute and complete equality in the eyes of the law, regardless of their religion.
  • In an Islamic state, the rulers are not above the law. All officials of the state, whether they are the head or ordinary employees, are equal in the eyes of the law. None can claim immunity. Even an ordinary citizen has the right to forward a claim or file a complaint against the highest executive in the country.
  • Citizens have the right to avoid sin. No government, or administrator, or head of a department can order another person to do wrong. A person who is so ordered has the right to refuse to comply, and this would not be seen as an offense under Islamic Law.
  • Islam grants the right to participate in the affairs of state. Thus every citizen has the right to have a direct say in the affairs of the state or a representative chosen by him and others.

The issue of there being an Islamic State in the world today has already been discussed in different parts of the forum, and the answer is no - there isn't today as it's been prophecised.


Now, if we're to look at a religion on it's teachings, instead of some who claim to follow it, then we can say that these Islamic Teachings which i quoted above are way more advanced than even the world we live in today! Yet alone 14 centuries ago.

That was a time when one wasn't even allowed to follow another religion apart from their rulers, and if they did - they would be beheaded. Yet Allaah sent His servant and final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) to free the world from the oppression it was facing.



That's what Divine revelation is supposed to do - it's supposed to free mankind from the hardships and oppression they are facing. And free the weak and the oppressed. This is Islaam, and without a doubt without Islaam, mankind is oppressed, since the rulers (i.e. of today) may say that we are 'freeing people from the oppression of religion' - when in reality, all they're doing is forcing people to accept their ideology, and anyone who speaks out - they get locked up.

So is this really freedom, or is it not? If God can send a perfect law to mankind 14 centuries ago which is more advanced than the laws of today, then i'm sure that it is even more perfect and suitable for the future also.



Sorry for dragging the post on quite abit.




Regards.
Reply

Karina
06-06-2007, 08:10 PM
But what about mis-translation?
Reply

- Qatada -
06-06-2007, 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
But what about mis-translation?

I'm not sure what you mean by mistranslation, but if you mean taking things out of context - then the praise is for Allaah that He has actually preserved the religion for us; including the authentic teachings of His Messenger, and also the understanding of his companions (who had the best understanding since they were alive while the Messenger of Allaah/God was amongst them.)


The Messenger of Allaah/God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:


"I counsel you to have Taqwaa (God consciessness) of Allaah and to hear and obey, even if an Abyssinian [Ethiopian] slave were to command you. For, verily, whoever amongst you lives (to grown old), he will see many differences.

So stick to my Sunnah [path/guidance] and the Sunnah of the rightly guided khaleefahs. Cling tightly onto it and hold onto it with your molar teeth. And beware of newly invented matters. For, indeed, every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is a thing that leads astray, and everything that leads astray is in the Hellfire."


[Authentically Recorded in Abu Dawud]

Therefore the praise is for Allaah/God that He actually preserved the religion for us, and even if someone was to take things out of context - we could always refer to the authentic teachings.


The Prophet said:

"There will not cease to be a group from my ummah [community - the muslims], dominant upon the truth. The ones who abandon them will not be able to harm them, until the decree of Allaah comes."

[Authentically Reported in Saheeh Muslim]

And Allaah/God Almighty says in His final revelation - the Qur'an:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

[Qur'an 15:9]

And Allaah knows best.




Regards.
Reply

wilberhum
06-06-2007, 08:18 PM
:skeleton: Oh no, here we go again, being a Dalit in the Islamic cast system was so wonderful. :skeleton:

It may have been better than most “Dark Age” systems, but it is a “Dark Age” system.
Reply

- Qatada -
06-06-2007, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
:skeleton: Oh no, here we go again, being a Dalit in the Islamic cast system was so wonderful. :skeleton:

It may have been better than most “Dark Age” systems, but it is a “Dark Age” system.

Then all you need to do is read Islamic History, and how it benefitted mankind so much:


Islamic History:
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12



Regards.
Reply

Karina
06-06-2007, 08:27 PM
But if the Koran in it's truest form is in Arabic - how can we be assured of it's literal translation into English?

I personally have read three very different versions of the same texts in the last 10 minutes!

Anyway.... not to be edging away from topic...................... :-[
Reply

wilberhum
06-06-2007, 08:29 PM
You give me a totally bias source.
Reality is hard to see when you are on the outside looking in.

try this one;
A Golden Age of religious tolerance http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi.../spain_3.shtml
..........................
Jews and Christians did retain some freedom under Muslim rule, providing they obeyed certain rules. Although these rules would now be considered completely unacceptable................

But you just will never see the reality of your inferiors.
Reply

- Qatada -
06-06-2007, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
But if the Koran in it's truest form is in Arabic - how can we be assured of it's literal translation into English?

I personally have read three very different versions of the same texts in the last 10 minutes!

Anyway.... not to be edging away from topic...................... :-[

Agreed, the Quran is originally in the arabic tongue, and any translation besides that is simply a translation and not really Quran. The meaning of the word Quran means recitation, therefore it cant be titled Quran if its not in the original tongue anyway. Sorry for being so confusing.

So translations are simply for people to get a basic understanding of what is being said, yet the Quran remains arabic since thats the way God revealed it to His final Messenger. Arabic in of itself is an eloquent, deep, language. Its easy to learn too, and sounds beautiful.


Media Tags are no longer supported



That for example is the first surah/chapter in the arabic language, and the verses (as a translation) are the following:

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

You (Alone) we worship, and you (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

Guide us to the Straight Way

The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.


[Surah 1 - Fatiha (the Opening)]

Now you yourself can say that the english in no way matches the arabic, and Allaah is the All Wise, All Knowing.


So basically, the translation is simply a translation, and we all agree upon that. The arabic however is the real Qur'an, and will remain that way.



Also, another miracle of the Qur'an is the fact that it's been preserved for 14centuries, without alteration, not even a single letter! And that's also a sign that it's truelly from Allaah, the Lord of the Worlds.

Here's a good link regarding that:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503545420



And if you have anymore questions - please don't hesitate to ask! :)



Peace.
Reply

- Qatada -
06-06-2007, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
You give me a totally bias source.
Reality is hard to see when you are on the outside looking in.

try this one;
A Golden Age of religious tolerance http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi.../spain_3.shtml
..........................
Jews and Christians did retain some freedom under Muslim rule, providing they obeyed certain rules. Although these rules would now be considered completely unacceptable................

But you just will never see the reality of your inferiors.

The Bani Umayyah (who ruled Al Andalus - spain) aren't our role models, our role models are the Prophets, Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his companions. :)




Regards.
Reply

wilberhum
06-06-2007, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The Bani Umayyah (who ruled Al Andalus - spain) aren't our role models, our role models are the Prophets, Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his companions. :)
Regards.
You never seam to distinguish between faith and reality. :skeleton:
The reality is that your system creates a cast system with Muslim Males sitting at the top. :?

Now I'm going away for a while.
I get out of control when people think I am so *&^%!@#$ stupid that I would love to give up all my freedom and bow and scrape to those that think god made them superior. :phew :raging: :raging: :raging:
Reply

Karina
06-06-2007, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Agreed, the Quran is originally in the arabic tongue, and any translation besides that is simply a translation and not really Quran. The meaning of the word Quran means recitation, therefore it cant be titled Quran if its not in the original tongue anyway. Sorry for being so confusing.

So translations are simply for people to get a basic understanding of what is being said, yet the Quran remains arabic since thats the way God revealed it to His final Messenger. Arabic in of itself is an eloquent, deep, language. Its easy to learn too, and sounds beautiful.


http://quran.jalisi.com/001fatiha_01.mp3


That for example is the first surah/chapter in the arabic language, and the verses (as a translation) are the following:

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

You (Alone) we worship, and you (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

Guide us to the Straight Way

The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.


[Surah 1 - Fatiha (the Opening)]

Now you yourself can say that the english in no way matches the arabic, and Allaah is the All Wise, All Knowing.


So basically, the translation is simply a translation, and we all agree upon that. The arabic however is the real Qur'an, and will remain that way.



Also, another miracle of the Qur'an is the fact that it's been preserved for 14centuries, without alteration, not even a single letter! And that's also a sign that it's truelly from Allaah, the Lord of the Worlds.

Here's a good link regarding that:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503545420



And if you have anymore questions - please don't hesitate to ask! :)



Peace.
Ok, a question (Thank you!).

If the true and ultimate Qur'an is in Arabic, and I have no doubt of it's intention and message. How does this prevent infinite numbers of Muslims or "Muslims" severely mis-interpreting it's very true meaning?

If you would like me to provide examples and sources of the differing texts I have found in the space of minutes, I will with pleasure supply them.... And if they are readily available to little old me by the power of the worldwideweb, then they are accessible to whoever choses to use Google.

This issue is not mutually exlusive to one religion it is exclusive to all.

Another issue:
Freedom of speech on the internet. Do you think this is a direct cause of the conflict and blatent and bloody hatred and religious intolerance of this millenium - fuel for the fire so to speak? oops or should this be a different thread?!

:cry:
Reply

- Qatada -
06-06-2007, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
You never seam to distinguish between faith and reality. :skeleton:
The reality is that your system creates a cast system with Muslim Males sitting at the top. :?

Now I'm going away for a while.
I get out of control when people think I am so *&^%!@#$ stupid that I would love to give up all my freedom and bow and scrape to those that think god made them superior. :phew :raging: :raging: :raging:

Thanks, if you think that - then read the post i mentioned above. :)

http://www.islamicboard.com/758694-post34.html



If you want to make your own personal interpretation of Islaam, then that's upto you. However, i've shown the teachings of Islaam with proofs.


O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

[Quran 49: 13]


The Prophet said: 'There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for a fair-skinned person over a person with dark skin, nor for a dark-skinned person over a person with fair skin. Whoever is more pious and God-fearing is more deserving of honour.' (Musnad Ahmad)

And only Allaah knows who is the most righteous, so we don't have an attitude of 'holier than thou' or whatever you call it.


'Abdullah ibn Mas'ud reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said,

"No one who has an atom's weight of pride in his heart will enter the Garden/Paradise." A man said, "And if the man likes his clothes to be good and his sandals to be good?" He said, "Allah is Beautiful and loves beauty. Pride means to renounce the truth and abase [look down on] people."

[Saheeh Muslim]


And Allaah knows best.




Regards.
Reply

- Qatada -
06-06-2007, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
Ok, a question (Thank you!).

If the true and ultimate Qur'an is in Arabic, and I have no doubt of it's intention and message. How does this prevent infinite numbers of Muslims or "Muslims" severely mis-interpreting it's very true meaning?

First of all, we usually leave it upto the knowledgable to teach it. Yet at the same time, the knowledge is open to anyone (so it's not secretly compiled by the scholars etc.) therefore we can access it also, however we don't extract rulings from it since we're simply laymen i.e. myself etc.

Also there are severe warnings for those who misquote the texts, and the knowledgable really have more fear of disobeying Allaah since they have more faith and belief in God, because with knowledge comes understanding, and with understanding comes belief, and with belief comes certainty, and certainty means a more solid/firm belief.


For example:

http://tafsir.com


That site has the teachings of Qur'an according to how the companions of God's/Allaah's Messenger (peace be upon him) taught it, in what situation the verses were revealed etc. [with authentic chains/links of narration to prove its authenticity etc.]

The Qur'an in of itself is a book of guidance, so for example you'll realise that the name Muhammad is only mention 4 times in the Qur'an. Whereas the names of Moses, Jesus etc. is mentioned many, many times.


If you would like me to provide examples and sources of the differing texts I have found in the space of minutes, I will with pleasure supply them.... And if they are readily available to little old me by the power of the worldwideweb, then they are accessible to whoever choses to use Google.

This issue is not mutually exlusive to one religion it is exclusive to all.

I'm not sure what you mean, but if you got any misunderstandings - then yeah sure, we can try to clarify it inshaa Allaah (God willing.)


Another issue:
Freedom of speech on the internet. Do you think this is a direct cause of the conflict and blatent and bloody hatred and religious intolerance of this millenium - fuel for the fire so to speak? oops or should this be a different thread?!

:cry:

I'm not really sure, i like discussing with others about different religions.


But if someone was to spark up a debate for arguments sake, then i want to strive to become like the servant of Allaah mentioned in the Qur'an:
And the true servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk the earth with humility and when the ignorant address them, they respond with words of peace.

Qur'an 25:63.



Regards.
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-06-2007, 09:41 PM
This is a quick off topic question.

When I loaded this page this morning some guy started singing on my computer :ooh: How'd you do that?
Reply

- Qatada -
06-06-2007, 09:43 PM
He wasn't singing, he was reciting Qur'an. :)


By the way, please don't put no tracks on since the forum's not for that purpose lol. But what you gota do is use the media tags:


[media] link [ /media]


Insha Allaah (God willing) that will work.




Regards.
Reply

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