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lilah
06-04-2007, 06:53 PM
I find it funny and strange how the media labels muslims that are opposed to suicide bombing, terrorisim, and extremism as 'moderate muslims'. It's as if to say, the extremists and terrorists --- they are muslim, but those that oppose such actions are 'moderates'.

It's funny how labels and words can make an impact these days. I mean, if the media and politicans spend a career associating extremism with islam, how do you describe those that aren't extremists, The ones that are law bidding and peacefull....they can't be real muslims.. So the label 'moderate' muslim is used, as if these people follow a watered down version of Islam and ignore the parts that teach to kill and harm innocent people.

It's all upside down and inside out. Avoiding extremism and war are elements of our faith. Extremism is forbidden and tolerance is mandatory in Islam.

Reported by an-Nasaa'ee (5/268), ibn Maajah (no. 3029), Ahmad (1/215, 347) with a saheeh sanad.

The Messenger of Allaah (SAW) said, "I warn you of extremism in the Religion for indeed those that came before you were destroyed due to their extremism in the religion."
Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not commit aggression, for God loves not aggressors (Qur’an 2: 190).

Let there be no compulsion (or coercion) in the religion (Islam). The right direction is distinctly clear from error. (2:256)
O you who believe! Do not nullify your charity by demands for gratitude or insulting words, like him who spends his wealth, showing off to people and not believing in God and the Last Day… (Qur’an, 2:264)
O you, those who have faith, when you go out to fight in the path of God, make things clear and do not say to someone who gives you peace, “You are not a believer,” - you coveting the pleasures of the life of the world, and with God is abundant reward. You were the same as that before, then God was gracious to you. So make it clear. Surely God is aware of what you do. - Qur’an 4:94
“O ye who believe! Remain steadfast for Allah, bearing witness to justice. Do not allow your hatred for others make you swerve to wrongdoing and turn you away from justice. Be just; that is closer to true piety.” (5:8)
Whosoever kills an innocent human being, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and whosoever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. (5:32)
Permission (to fight) is given to those who are being attacked, because they have been wronged. And surely God measures out help for them. (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, “our Lord is Allah.. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will). - Qur’an 22:39-40
Goodness and evil are not equal. Repel evil with what is better. Then that person with whom there was hatred, may become your intimate friend! And no one will be granted such goodness except those who exercise patience and self-restraint, none but people of the greatest good fortune. Qur’an 41:34-35

So, how can those that oppose extremism, terrorism, and warmongering be labeled 'moderates' when they are following the tennants of Islam to the letter? Wouldn't a more appropriate label be 'orthodox muslim'? And how can the media and politicians label terrorists and extremists as 'muslim', when there actions are anti-islamic and go against every teaching?
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Joe98
06-05-2007, 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by lilah
And how can the media and politicians label terrorists ………as 'muslim',

The terrorists labelled themselves as Muslims.

When most people commit crimes, they know it’s a crime. They know it’s against their religion and their cultural beliefs.

When Muslims commit crimes, so often we see them on a video holding the Holy Koran and stating they are doing this in the name of Islam!

It’s not like we have seen this once or twice. We have seen it over and over and over again!

Other Muslims have the chance to say “this is against Islam” instead the most common comment is “well, its no worse than what’s happening in Israel”. As a result you are effectively agreeing with the criminals that the crime is in the name of Islam.
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Umar001
06-05-2007, 12:14 AM
Well actually sister, the term Moderate is cool by me, for example, we are supposed to be moderate i.e. not go to either extreme, neither in one way or the other, neither pray tooooooo much nor pray toooooo little but be moderate.

What would be interesting is that you could say we are "extreme" in that we follow Islam to the best of our ability. Or fundamentalist because we follow the fundamentals.

But those words are used in a different way, obviously to point out negatives.
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Keltoi
06-05-2007, 02:15 AM
The term "moderate" Muslim is simply a way to differentiate between the "extremist" element one sees on the news wearing masks and cutting people's heads off while chanting "God is great", from those Muslims who simply pay taxes and go to their local mosque. If there were a bunch of Christians committing suicide attacks and beheading bound captives on videotapes, I would be the first in line to be among the "moderate" Christian element. Perhaps a better description would be "true" Muslims and "true" Christians...but that would put the media in the position of deciding who is a true partisan of their faith and who isn't.
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beespreeteam
06-05-2007, 09:11 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Well actually sister, the term Moderate is cool by me, for example, we are supposed to be moderate i.e. not go to either extreme, neither in one way or the other, neither pray tooooooo much nor pray toooooo little but be moderate.

What would be interesting is that you could say we are "extreme" in that we follow Islam to the best of our ability. Or fundamentalist because we follow the fundamentals.

But those words are used in a different way, obviously to point out negatives.
QFT RE: Fundamentalist point
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Muezzin
06-05-2007, 01:32 PM
Ah, sweet, sweet labelling, how often you helped me in Criminology coursework.

Originally Posted by Joe98
Other Muslims have the chance to say “this is against Islam” instead the most common comment is “well, its no worse than what’s happening in Israel”. As a result you are effectively agreeing with the criminals that the crime is in the name of Islam.
Um, Muslims do say 'this is against Islam', and other things, like terrorists are 'not real Muslims'. However, that latter one especially, is often mocked as a sort of cop-out, but I'm not entirely sure why - effectively, it's kicking certain people out of the fold of Islam, which is pretty serious, spiritually speaking.
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Zman
06-06-2007, 02:59 AM
:sl:/Peace To All

Actually, there is a slew of terminology for "us" and "them."

And I don't mean between the West and Muslims specifically, but between the West and the Third World in general.

One example of different terms for Muslims & non-Muslims:

A highly observant and religious Muslim is called a fundamentalist or extremist, but a Jew is called "orthodox," or a Filipino Cathloic that literally gets crucified (with real nails), is called showing his "devotion" to God.

Another, deals with the West and non-Muslim Third Worlders:

1. In the West, the national governing body is called governemnt or administration. In the Third World, we call them "regimes."

2. We also have terms for pro-Western and anti-Western regimes...
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*noor
06-06-2007, 03:02 AM
What some people don't realize is that Islam is all about moderation.
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islamirama
06-06-2007, 03:17 AM
Moderate Muslims is a term coined by Bush and his lackies. It is a word for not those Muslims who are moderate in their islamic beliefs but it is a word for those muslims who are secular, who are friends of bush and support his wars against Islam. In other words....

Marie Xeno pointed out...

“What's a 'moderate Muslim'?
Someone that doesn't mind the invasion and occupation of Muslim countries and the slaughter of countless people there? We will see the end of 'extremist' Muslims when we see the end of 'extremist' leaders in the West. It's not rocket science although it is in a lot of people's interests to pretend that it is.”

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...h-muslims.html
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August
06-06-2007, 07:08 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Um, Muslims do say 'this is against Islam', and other things, like terrorists are 'not real Muslims'. However, that latter one especially, is often mocked as a sort of cop-out, but I'm not entirely sure why
I haven't read the Qu'ran, so I don't claim a knowlege as to what it really says. What I do know is this, when Islamic terrorists try to justify their actions, they quote from the Qu'ran much more extensively than those who denounce terrorism. That's why calling them not real Muslims can seem like a cop-out. The terrorists would say that you aren't a real Muslim because you aren't cutting off the heads of unbelievers.
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August
06-06-2007, 07:13 AM
Originally Posted by lilah
So, how can those that oppose extremism, terrorism, and warmongering be labeled 'moderates' when they are following the tennants of Islam to the letter? Wouldn't a more appropriate label be 'orthodox muslim'?
Orthodox Muslim does sound much more accurate. Extremism is usually seen negatively. Extremism is good if what you are extreem about is good. It's like Goldwater said: "Extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."
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north_malaysian
06-06-2007, 07:38 AM
Originally Posted by *noor
What some people don't realize is that Islam is all about moderation.
:beard: :beard: :beard: :beard: :beard::muslimah: :muslimah: :muslimah: :muslimah: :muslimah:
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lilah
06-06-2007, 08:27 AM
Originally Posted by August
I haven't read the Qu'ran, so I don't claim a knowlege as to what it really says. What I do know is this, when Islamic terrorists try to justify their actions, they quote from the Qu'ran much more extensively than those who denounce terrorism. That's why calling them not real Muslims can seem like a cop-out. The terrorists would say that you aren't a real Muslim because you aren't cutting off the heads of unbelievers.
Maybe you should read the quran.... i mean, how would you know if a terrorist cites a verse from the quran if you've never read the quran...

Let me ask you a question. You say that you are christian in your profile. Say a person or a group claimed they were christian, but behaved in a way that was anti christian....and not following what it actually said in the bible....only what they 'believe' the bible says. Are they 'real christians'? Are you a 'moderate' christian if you follow your religon like you are supposed to...according to your bible...if you denounce what the 'real christians' espouse?

Let me pose the question in another way. Does Westboro Baptist Church ring any bells? They are the group of 'christians' that own websites such as 'GodHatesAmerica.com' and 'GodHatesF@g$ (i'm sorry, i'm a lady and can't type out the actual website). They go to the funerals of Fallen U.S soldiers, praising their deaths and blaming this country's downfall on homsexuality, Jews, Muslims, Roman Catholics, African Americans.

Now, I hope....and pray that these people are 'anti-christian'...but they call themselves christian and on their website they quote the King James Bible, and recommend it to their followers. Are they 'Real Christians' and are you a "moderate" in comparison? Wouldn't it be safe to say that you are the 'Real Christian' and they are "Nut Jobs?" How can it be different in this situation than the one I described.

You said you never read the Quran...I quoted many verses from the Quran that directly contradicts actions of terrorists and extremists. If taken out of context, or interpreted on emotion or the hatred that exists in the heart of a person, any book can say to kill and hate...when it doesn't. Isn't it convient that the ones that go counter to what the quran and sunnah teach...they are the ones called muslims, while the ones that follow the true teachings...we are the 'moderates'...as if we are following a 'watered down' version of what Islam is 'supposed' to be when instead we are following Islam as it is meant to be....
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August
06-07-2007, 06:39 AM
Originally Posted by lilah
I quoted many verses from the Quran that directly contradicts actions of terrorists and extremists. If taken out of context, or interpreted on emotion or the hatred that exists in the heart of a person, any book can say to kill and hate...when it doesn't.
Very true, anything can be twisted to suit someone's needs. I'm not saying that the qu'ran promotes violence. What I am saying is that I don't think true Muslims are doing a very good job arguing against the terrorists, they may be wrong, but they're winning the argument. If more isn't done to defeat these radical groups ideas then Islam will be in very big trouble. I may not be a Muslim, but since the terrorists want to kill people like me, I have an interest in seeing true Islam win.
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lilah
06-07-2007, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by August
Very true, anything can be twisted to suit someone's needs. I'm not saying that the qu'ran promotes violence. What I am saying is that I don't think true Muslims are doing a very good job arguing against the terrorists, they may be wrong, but they're winning the argument. If more isn't done to defeat these radical groups ideas then Islam will be in very big trouble. I may not be a Muslim, but since the terrorists want to kill people like me, I have an interest in seeing true Islam win.
how many times do we have to tell the world how terrorism and extremism is wrong and anti islamic before the world hears us? when 9-11 happened, did the media first go to the masajids and talk to the imams? no, the first thing the media did was show people jumping up and down w/joy in Palestine. Since 9-11 the masajids have bent over backwards trying to clear the confusion over islam.

But i guess if people cover their ears, they can't hear much...:laugh: :laugh:
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Keltoi
06-07-2007, 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by lilah
how many times do we have to tell the world how terrorism and extremism is wrong and anti islamic before the world hears us? when 9-11 happened, did the media first go to the masajids and talk to the imams? no, the first thing the media did was show people jumping up and down w/joy in Palestine. Since 9-11 the masajids have bent over backwards trying to clear the confusion over islam.

But i guess if people cover their ears, they can't hear much...:laugh: :laugh:
There were Muslims jumping up and down in joy in Michigan, we didn't need to go to Palestine. That said, I agree with your point in principle. The lack of an Islamic figurehead who can get camera time and say with the voice of their faith.."This is not Islam", leads many to assume the worst. For example, if a Christian group or groups began to carry out suicide bomb attacks in Muslim countries, not to mention the long list of other atrocities we could bring up, the Pope would get in front of the microphone and the camera and state something like "The Church condemns these people and their actions as against the Will of God."...something like that. Islam doesn't have a figurehead like that, so the media looks to surveys and polls. Usually these surveys and polls don't cheer non-Muslims up too much either.
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lilah
06-07-2007, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
There were Muslims jumping up and down in joy in Michigan, we didn't need to go to Palestine. That said, I agree with your point in principle. The lack of an Islamic figurehead who can get camera time and say with the voice of their faith.."This is not Islam", leads many to assume the worst. For example, if a Christian group or groups began to carry out suicide bomb attacks in Muslim countries, not to mention the long list of other atrocities we could bring up, the Pope would get in front of the microphone and the camera and state something like "The Church condemns these people and their actions as against the Will of God."...something like that. Islam doesn't have a figurehead like that, so the media looks to surveys and polls. Usually these surveys and polls don't cheer non-Muslims up too much either.
Some Statements Made Against Terrorism post 9/11 By the world's Muslim leaders that the media can look too instead of surveys and polls. These probably would have cheered up the non-Muslims, but maybe fox, nbc, cbs, and the nations' periodicals thought the american people couldn't understand the statements, and have to resort to presenting the complex ideas in the form of colorful bar charts instead.....sorry, i'm just being my sarcastic self, blame that on my american upbringing.. :D

Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:

“The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15).”
MSANews, September 14, 2001, http://msanews.mynet.net/MSANEWS/200...10917.15.html;
Arabic original in al-Quds al-Arabi (London), September 14, 2001, p. 2, http://www.alquds.co.uk/Alquds/2001/...Fri/Quds02.pdf

Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Qatar; Tariq Bishri, Egypt; Muhammad S. Awwa, Egypt; Fahmi Huwaydi, Egypt; Haytham Khayyat, Syria; Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, U.S.:
“All Muslims ought to be united against all those who terrorize the innocents, and those who permit the killing of non-combatants without a justifiable reason. Islam has declared the spilling of blood and the destruction of property as absolute prohibitions until the Day of Judgment. ... [It is] necessary to apprehend the true perpetrators of these crimes, as well as those who aid and abet them through incitement, financing or other support. They must be brought to justice in an impartial court of law and [punished] appropriately. ... [It is] a duty of Muslims to participate in this effort with all possible means.”
Statement of September 27, 2001. The Washington Post, October 11, 2001, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2001Oct10.html
Full text of this fatwa in English and Arabic.
Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt:
“Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. ... It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.”
Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001
Abdel-Mo'tei Bayyoumi, al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy, Cairo, Egypt:
“There is no terrorism or a threat to civilians in jihad [religious struggle].”
Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 20 - 26 September 2001, http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm

Muslim Brotherhood, an opposition Islamist group in Egypt, said it was “horrified” by the attack and expressed “condolences and sadness”:
“[We] strongly condemn such activities that are against all humanist and Islamic morals. ... [We] condemn and oppose all aggression on human life, freedom and dignity anywhere in the world.”
Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 13 - 19 September 2001, http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/551/fo2.htm
Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of Shi‘i Muslim radicals in Lebanon, said he was “horrified” by these “barbaric ... crimes”:
“Beside the fact that they are forbidden by Islam, these acts do not serve those who carried them out but their victims, who will reap the sympathy of the whole world. ... Islamists who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes.”
Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001
‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
“Firstly: the recent developments in the United States including hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts. Secondly: any Muslim who is aware of the teachings of his religion and who adheres to the directives of the Holy Qur'an and the sunnah (the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) will never involve himself in such acts, because they will invoke the anger of God Almighty and lead to harm and corruption on earth.”
Statement of September 15, 2001, http://saudiembassy.net/press_releas...9-15-Islam.htm
‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
"You must know Islam’s firm position against all these terrible crimes. The world must know that Islam is a religion of peace and mercy and goodness; it is a religion of justice and guidance…Islam has forbidden violence in all its forms. It forbids the hijacking airplanes, ships and other means of transport, and it forbids all acts that undermine the security of the innocent."
Hajj sermon of February 2, 2004, in "Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation," May 2004, http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLi...mism_May04.pdf, page 10
Shaikh Saleh Al-Luheidan, Chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia:
"As a human community we must be vigilant and careful to oppose these pernicious and shameless evils, which are not justified by any sane logic, nor by the religion of Islam."
Statement of September 14, 2001, in "Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation," May 2004, http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLi...mism_May04.pdf, page 6
Shaikh Saleh Al-Luheidan, Chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia:
"And I repeat once again: that this act that the United states was afflicted with, with this vulgarity and barbarism, and which is even more barbaric than terrorist acts, I say that these acts are from the depths of depravity and the worst of evils."
Televised statement of September 2001, in Muhammad ibn Hussin Al-Qahtani, editor, The Position of Saudi Muslim Scholars Regarding Terrorism in the Name of Islam (Saudi Arabia, 2004), pages 27-28.
Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Abdallah al-Sabil, member of the Council of Senior Religious Scholars, Saudi Arabia:
“Any attack on innocent people is unlawful and contrary to shari'a (Islamic law). ... Muslims must safeguard the lives, honor and property of Christians and Jews. Attacking them contradicts shari'a.”
Agence France Presse, December 4, 2001
Council of Saudi ‘Ulama', fatwa of February 2003:
"What is happening in some countries from the shedding of the innocent blood and the bombing of buildings and ships and the destruction of public and private installations is a criminal act against Islam. ... Those who carry out such acts have the deviant beliefs and misleading ideologies and are responsible for the crime. Islam and Muslims should not be held responsible for such actions."
The Dawn newspaper, Karachi, Pakistan, February 8, 2003, http://www.dawn.com/2003/02/08/top17.htm; also in "Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation," May 2004, http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLi...mism_May04.pdf, page 10
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, chairman of the Sunna and Sira Council, Qatar:
"Our hearts bleed for the attacks that has targeted the World Trade Center [WTC], as well as other institutions in the United States despite our strong oppositions to the American biased policy towards Israel on the military, political and economic fronts. Islam, the religion of tolerance, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is backed by the Qur’anic verse which reads: ‘Who so ever kills a human being [as punishment] for [crimes] other than manslaughter or [sowing] corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind’ (Al-Ma’idah:32)."
Statement of September 13, 2001. http://www.islamonline.net/English/N...rticle25.shtml. Arabic original at http://www.qaradawi.net/site/topics/...0&parent_id=17

Tahirul Qadri, head of the Awami Tehrik Party, Pakistan:
"Bombing embassies or destroying non-military installations like the World Trade Center is no jihad. ... "[T]hose who launched the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks not only killed thousands of innocent people in the United States but also put the lives of millions of Muslims across the world at risk. ... Bin Laden is not a prophet that we should put thousands of lives at risk for."
United Press International, October 18, 2001, http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...7/195606.shtml
Ayatollah Ali Khamene’i, supreme jurist-ruler of Iran:
“Killing of people, in any place and with any kind of weapons, including atomic bombs, long-range missiles, biological or chemical weopons, passenger or war planes, carried out by any organization, country or individuals is condemned. ... It makes no difference whether such massacres happen in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Qana, Sabra, Shatila, Deir Yassin, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq or in New York and Washington.”
Islamic Republic News Agency, September 16, 2001, http://www.irna.com/en/hphoto/010916000000.ehp.shtml
President Muhammad Khatami of Iran:
“[T]he September 11 terrorist blasts in America can only be the job of a group that have voluntarily severed their own ears and tongues, so that the only language with which they could communicate would be destroying and spreading death.”
Address to the United Nations General Assembly, November 9, 2001, http://www.president.ir/cronicnews/1.../800818.htm#b3
League of Arab States:
“The General-Secretariat of the League of Arab States shares with the people and government of the United States of America the feelings of revulsion, horror and shock over the terrorist attacks that ripped through the World Trade Centre and Pentagon, inflicting heavy damage and killing and wounding thousands of many nationalities. These terrorist crimes have been viewed by the League as inadmissible and deserving all condemnation. Divergence of views between the Arabs and the United States over the latter’s foreign policy on the Middle East crisis does in no way adversely affect the common Arab attitude of compassion with the people and government of the United States at such moments of facing the menace and ruthlessness of international terrorism. In more than one statement released since the horrendous attacks, the League has also expressed deep sympathy with the families of the victims. In remarks to newsmen immediately following the tragic events, Arab League Secretary-General Amre Moussa described the feelings of the Arab world as demonstrably sympathetic with the American people, particularly with families and individuals who lost their loved ones. “It is indeed tormenting that any country or people or city anywhere in the world be the scene of such disastrous attacks,” he added. While convinced that it is both inconceivable and lamentable that such a large-scale, organised terrorist campaign take place anywhere, anytime, the League believes that the dreadful attacks against WTC and the Pentagon unveil, time and again, that the cancer of terrorism can be extensively damaging if left unchecked. It follows that there is a pressing and urgent need to combat world terrorism. In this context, an earlier call by [Egyptian] President Hosni Mubarak for convening an international conference to draw up universal accord on ways and means to eradicate this phenomenon and demonstrate international solidarity is worthy of active consideration. The Arabs have walked a large distancein the fight against cross-border terrorism by concluding in April 1998 the Arab Agreement on Combating Terrorism.”
September 17, 2001, http://www.leagueofarabstates.org/E_...s_17_09_01.asp
Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, Secretary-General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference:
“Following the bloody attacks against major buildings and installations in the United States yesterday, Tuesday, September 11, 2001, Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, secretary-general of the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), stated that he was shocked and deeply saddened when he heard of those attacks which led to the death and injury of a very large number of innocent American citizens. Dr. Belkeziz said he was denouncing and condemning those criminal and brutal acts that ran counter to all covenants, humanitarian values and divine religions foremost among which was Islam.”
Press Release, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, September 12, 2001, http://www.oic-oci.org/press/english...n%20attack.htm
Organization of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers:
“The Conference strongly condemned the brutal terror acts that befell the United States, caused huge losses in human lives from various nationalities and wreaked tremendous destruction and damage in New York and Washington. It further reaffirmed that these terror acts ran counter to the teachings of the divine religions as well as ethical and human values, stressed the necessity of tracking down the perpetrators of these acts in the light of the results of investigations and bringing them to justice to inflict on them the penalty they deserve, and underscored its support of this effort. In this respect, the Conference expressed its condolences to and sympathy with the people and government of the United States and the families of the victims in these mournful and tragic circumstances.”
Final Communique of the Ninth Extraordinary Session of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers, October 10, 2001, http://www.oic-oci.org/english/fm/Al...oad/frmex9.htm
Organization of the Islamic Conference, Summit Conference:
"We are determined to fight terrorism in all its forms. ... Islam is the religion of moderation. It rejects extremism and isolation. There is a need to confront deviant ideology where it appears, including in school curricula. Islam is the religion of diversity and tolerance."
Daily Star (Beirut, Lebanon), December 9, 2005, http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article....ticle_id=20641
Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, Head of the Directorate of Religious Affairs of Turkey:
“Any human being, regardless of his ethnic and religious origin, will never think of carrying out such a violent, evil attack. Whatever its purpose is, this action cannot be justified and tolerated.”
Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, “A Message on Ragaib Night and Terrorism,” September 21, 2001, http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/duyurular/regaibing.htm

Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar), Turkish author:
“Islam does not encourage any kind of terrorism; in fact, it denounces it. Those who use terrorism in the name of Islam, in fact, have no other faculty except ignorance and hatred.”
Harun Yahya, “Islam Denounces Terrorism,” http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com
Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi, Pakistani-American Muslim leader:
“The sudden barbaric attack on innocent citizens living in peace is extremely distressing and deplorable. Every gentle human heart goes out to the victims of this attack and as humans we are ashamed at the barbarism perpetrated by a few people. Islam, which is a religion of peace and tolerance, condemns this act and sees this is as a wounding scar on the face of humanity. I appeal to Muslims to strongly condemn this act, express unity with the victims' relatives, donate blood, money and do whatever it takes to help the affected people.”
“Messages From Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi,” http://www.icna.org/wtc_islahi.htm
[QUOTE]Abdal-Hakim Murad, British Muslim author:
“Targeting civilians is a negation of every possible school of Sunni Islam. Suicide bombing is so foreign to the Quranic ethos that the Prophet Samson is entirely absent from our scriptures.”
“The Hijackers Were Not Muslims After All: Recapturing Islam From the Terrorists,” http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/masud/I...ecapturing.htm[/QUOTE]

Syed Mumtaz Ali, President of the Canadian Society of Muslims:
“We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Canadians in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.”
Canadian Society of Muslims, Media Release, September 12, 2001, http://muslim-canada.org/news09112001.html
15 American Muslim organizations:
“We reiterate our unequivocal condemnation of the crime committed on September 11, 2001 and join our fellow Americans in mourning the loss of up to 6000 innocent civilians.”
Muslim American Society (MAS), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), Muslim Alliance of North America (MANA), Muslim Student Association (MSA), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), Solidarity International, American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ), American Muslim Alliance (AMA), United Muslim Americans Association (UMAA), Islamic Media Foundation (IMF), American Muslim Foundation (AMF), Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO), American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), October 22, 2001, http://www.icna.org/wtc_pr.htm
57 leaders of North American Islamic organizations, 77 intellectuals, and dozens of concerned citizens:
“As American Muslims and scholars of Islam, we wish to restate our conviction that peace and justice constitute the basic principles of the Muslim faith. We wish again to state unequivocally that neither the al-Qaeda organization nor Usama bin Laden represents Islam or reflects Muslim beliefs and practice. Rather, groups like al-Qaeda have misused and abused Islam in order to fit their own radical and indeed anti-Islamic agenda. Usama bin Laden and al-Qaeda's actions are criminal, misguided and counter to the true teachings of Islam.”
Statement Rejecting Terrorism, September 9, 2002, http://www.islam-democracy.org/terrorism_statement.asp

American Muslim Political Coordination Council:
“American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.”
http://capwiz.com/cair/issues/alert/...&type=CU&azip=

Dr. Agha Saeed, National Chair of the American Muslim Alliance:
“These attacks are against both divine and human laws and we condemn them in the strongest terms. The Muslim Americans join the nation in calling for swift apprehension and stiff punishment of the perpetrators, and offer our sympathies to the victims and their families.”
http://www.amaweb.org/AMA%20Condemns.html
Hamza Yusuf, American Muslim leader:
“Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people [who committed murder on September 11] indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. ... You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country. In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, ``Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, ``Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.'' The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil.”
San Jose Mercury News, September 15, 2001, http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/isl0916.htm

Nuh Ha Mim Keller, American Muslim author:
“Muslims have nothing to be ashamed of, and nothing to hide, and should simply tell people what their scholars and religious leaders have always said: first, that the ******* sect has nothing to do with orthodox Islam, for its lack of tolerance is a perversion of traditional values; and second, that killing civilians is wrong and immoral.”
“Making the World Safe for Terrorism,” September 30, 2001, http://66.34.131.5/ISLAM/nuh/terrorism.htm
Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens), prominent British Muslim:
"I wish to express my heartfelt horror at the indiscriminate terrorist attacks committed against innocent people of the United States yesterday. While it is still not clear who carried out the attack, it must be stated that no right thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action: the Qur'an equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity. We pray for the families of all those who lost their lives in this unthinkable act of violence as well as all those injured; I hope to reflect the feelings of all Muslims and people around the world whose sympathies go out to the victims at this sorrowful moment."
[On singing an a cappella version of "Peace Train" for the Concert for New York City:] "After the tragedy, my heart was heavy with sadness and shock, and I was determined to help in some way. Organizers asked me to take part in a message for tolerance and sing 'Peace Train.' Of course, I agreed. ... As a Muslim from the West, it is important to me to let people know that these acts of mass murder have nothing to do with Islam and the beliefs of Muslims."
Press release of September 13, 2001, and PR Newswire, October 22, 2001, both at http://www.mountainoflight.co.uk/pages/news/2001.html
Muslims Against Terrorism, a U.S.-based organization:
“As Muslims, we condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations. Ours is a religion of peace. We are sick and tired of extremists dictating the public face of Islam.”
http://www.muslimsagainstterrorism.org/aboutus.html. This statement has been replaced by a new statement in favor of peace by the group's successor organization, Muslim Voices for Peace, http://www.mvp-us.org.
Abdulaziz Sachedina, professor of religious studies, University of Virginia:
“New York was grieving. Sorrow covered the horizons. The pain of separation and of missing family members, neighbors, citizens, humans could be felt in every corner of the country. That day was my personal day of “jihad” (“struggle”) - jihad with my pride and my identity as a Muslim. This is the true meaning of jihad – “struggle with one’s own ego and false pride.” I don’t ever recall that I had prayed so earnestly to God to spare attribution of such madness that was unleashed upon New York and Washington to the Muslims. I felt the pain and, perhaps for the first time in my entire life, I felt embarrassed at the thought that it could very well be my fellow Muslims who had committed this horrendous act of terrorism. How could these terrorists invoke God’s mercifulness and compassion when they had, through their evil act, put to shame the entire history of this great religion and its culture of toleration?”
“Where Was God on September 11?," http://www.virginia.edu/~soasia/news...all01/God.html
Ali Khan, professor of law, Washburn University School of Law:
“To the most learned in the text of the Quran, these verses must be read in the context of many other verses that stipulate the Islamic law of war---a war that the Islamic leader must declare after due consultation with advisers. For the less learned, however, these verses may provide the motivation and even the plot for a merciless strike against a self-chosen enemy.”
“Attack on America: An Islamic Perspective, September 17, 2001, http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew29.htm
Muqtedar Khan, assistant professor of political science, Adrian College, Michigan, USA:
“What happened on September 11th in New York and Washington DC will forever remain a horrible scar on the history of Islam and humanity. No matter how much we condemn it, and point to the Quran and the Sunnah to argue that Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, the fact remains that the perpetrators of this crime against humanity have indicated that their actions are sanctioned by Islamic values. The fact that even now several Muslim scholars and thousands of Muslims defend the accused is indicative that not all Muslims believe that the attacks are unIslamic. This is truly sad. ... If anywhere in your hearts there is any sympathy or understanding with those who committed this act, I invite you to ask yourself this question, would Muhammad (pbuh) sanction such an act? While encouraging Muslims to struggle against injustice (Al Quran 4:135), Allah also imposes strict rules of engagement. He says in unequivocal terms that to kill an innocent being is like killing entire humanity (Al Quran 5:32). He also encourages Muslims to forgive Jews and Christians if they have committed injustices against us (Al Quran 2:109, 3:159, 5:85).”
“Memo to American Muslims,” October 5, 2001, http://www.ijtihad.org/memo.htm
Dr. Alaa Al-Yousuf, Bahraini economist and political activist:
“On Friday, 14 September [the first Friday prayers after 11 September], almost the whole world expressed its condemnation of the crime and its grief for the bereaved families of the victims. Those who abstained or, even worse, rejoiced, will have joined the terrorists, not in the murder, but in adding to the incalculable damage on the other victims of the atrocity, namely, Islam as a faith, Muslims and Arabs as peoples, and possibly the Palestinian cause. The terrorists and their apologists managed to sully Islam as a faith both in the eyes of many Muslims and non-Muslims alike.”
Interview with the International Forum for Islamic Dialogue, London, http://www.islam21.net/pages/keyissues/key7-6.htm
Dr. S. Parvez Manzoor, Swedish-based Muslim author:
“If these acts of terror indeed have been perpetrated by Muslim radicals or fundamentalists, they have reaped nothing but eternal ****ation, shame and ignominy. For nothing, absolutely nothing, could remotely be advanced as an excuse for these barbaric acts. They represent a total negation of Islamic values, an utter disregard of our fiqhi tradition, and a slap in the face of the Ummah. They are in total contrast to what Islamic reason, compassion and faith stand for. Even from the more mundane criteria of common good, the maslaha of the jurists, these acts are treasonous and suicidal. Islamic faith has been so callously and casually sacrificed at the altar of politics, a home-grown politics of parochial causes, primeval passions, self-endorsing piety and messianic terror.”
Interview with the International Forum for Islamic Dialogue, London, http://www.islam21.net/pages/keyissues/key7-6.htm
Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysian Islamic activist and former deputy prime minister:
“Never in Islam's entire history has the action of so few of its followers caused the religion and its community of believers to be such an abomination in the eyes of others. Millions of Muslims who fled to North America and Europe to escape poverty and persecution at home have become the object of hatred and are now profiled as potential terrorists. And the nascent democratic movements in Muslim countries will regress for a few decades as ruling autocrats use their participation in the global war against terrorism to terrorize their critics and dissenters. This is what Mohammed Atta and his fellow terrorists and sponsors have done to Islam and its community worldwide by their murder of innocents at the World Trade Center in New York and the Defense Depart-ment in Washington. The attack must be condemned, and the condemnation must be without reservation.”
Anwar Ibrahim, “Growth of Democracy Is the Answer to Terrorism,” International Herald Tribune, October 11, 2001, http://www.iht.com/articles/35281.htm
Ziauddin Sardar, British Muslim author:
“The failure of Islamic movements is their inability to come to terms with modernity, to give modernity a sustainable home-grown expression. Instead of engaging with the abundant problems that bedevil Muslim lives, the Islamic prescription consists of blind following of narrow pieties and slavish submission to inept obscurantists. Instead of engagement with the wider world, they have made Islam into an ethic of separation, separate under-development, and negation of the rest of the world.”
Ziauddin Sardar, “Islam has become its own enemy,” The Observer, October 21, 2001, http://www.observer.co.uk/waronterro...577942,00.html
Khaled Abou El Fadl, Kuwaiti-Egyptian-American legal scholar:
“It would be disingenuous to deny that the Qur'an and other Islamic sources offer possibilities of intolerant interpretation. Clearly these possibilities are exploited by the contemporary puritans and supremacists. But the text does not command such intolerant readings. Historically, Islamic civilization has displayed a remarkable ability to recognize possibilities of tolerance, and to act upon these possibilities.”
Khaled Abou El Fadl, “The Place of Tolerance in Islam: On Reading the Qur'an -- and Misreading It,” Boston Review, December 2001/January 2002, http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR26.6/elfadl.html
Sheikh Muhammad Ali Al-Hanooti, Palestinian-American mufti and member of the North American Fiqh Council:
“The people who attacked the WTC and Pentagon and hijacked the forth plane that crashed in Pennsylvania are criminal who deserve the severest punishment as the Quran elaborates. They are murderers and terrorists. If there were any person who felt happy for that incident we would not be able to equate them with those criminals, but we can say no one with faith and ethics would accept anything of that murder and targeting of innocent people.”
Sheikh Muhammad Ali Al-Hanooti, "Fatwa Session on Latest Tragic Events," IslamOnline, September 20, 2001, http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa...GuestID=pdwD2E
Syed Shahabuddin, Indian Muslim author:
“Islam prohibits terrorism as well as suicide. Jihad is neither and has no place for taking innocent lives or one’s own life. No cause, howsoever noble or just, can justify terrorism. So while one may sympathize with the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people and support their claim to a state of their own, while one may appreciate the democratic awakening among the people of many Muslim states and uphold their demand for withdrawal of foreign presence from their soil and support their struggle for revision of the terms of trade for their natural resources, no thinking Muslim can go along with the use of terrorism for securing political goals.”
Syed Shahabuddin, "Global war against terrorism – the Islamic dimension," Milli Gazette newspaper, New Delhi, India, November 1, 2001, http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01112001/34.htm
Dr. M. A. Zaki Badawi, principal of the Muslim College, London, England:
“Neither the law of Islam nor its ethical system justify such a crime.”
Dr. M. A. Zaki Badawi, "Terrorism has no place in Islam," Arab News, Jiddah-Riyadh-Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, September 28, 2001, http://www.arabnews.com/?page=5&sect...=28&m=9&y=2001
Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, head mufti at Jamiat-ul-Uloom-ul-Islamia seminary, Binori Town, Pakistan and a leader of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam (JUI) party, Pakistan:
“It's wrong to kill innocent people. ... It's also wrong to praise those who kill innocent people.”
The New York Times, September 28, 2001, p. B3
Shaykh Omar Bakri, leader of al-Muhajirun, a radical Islamist movement based in London, England:
“If Islamists did it -- and most likely it is Islamists, because of the nature of what happened -- then they have fully misunderstood the teachings of Islam. ... Even the most radical of us have condemned this. I am always considered to be a radical in the Islamic world and even I condemn it.”
The Gazette (Montreal, Quebec, Canada), September 13, 2001, p. B6
Zuhair Qudah, a preacher at al-Lawzieen mosque, Amman, Jordan:
"We stand by our Palestinian brothers in their struggle to end the occupation, but we don't condone violence, ugly crimes and the killing of innocent people."
Associated Press, September 14, 2001
Salih bin Muhammad Lahidan, chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia:
“Killing the weak, infants, women, and the elderly, and destroying property, are considered serious crimes in Islam. . . . Viewing on the TV networks what happened to the twin towers . . . was like watching doomsday. Those who commit such crimes are the worst of people. Anyone who thinks that any Islamic scholar will condone such acts is totally wrong. . . . This barbaric act is not justified by any sane mind-set. . . . This act is pernicious and shameless and evil in the extreme.”
The Washington Post, October 13, 2001, p. B9
Shaykh Rached Ghannouchi, chairman of Tunisia's an-Nahda Movement, in exile in London, England:
“Such destruction can only be condemned by any Muslim, however resentful one may be of America's biased policies supporting occupation in Palestine, as an unacceptable attack on thousands of innocent people having no relation to American policies. Anyone familiar with Islam has no doubt about its rejection of collective punishment, based on the well-known Quranic principle that 'no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another.'”
The Washington Post, October 13, 2001, p. B9
Shaykh Salih al-Suhaymi, religious scholar, Saudi Arabia:
“Based upon what has preceded, then we say that that which we believe and hold as our religion concerning what happened to the World Trade Centre in America – and in Allaah lies success – that the terrorist attacks that took place and what occurred of general (mass) killing, then it is not permissible and Islaam does not allow it in any form whatsoever.”
"Shaykh Saalih as-Suhaymee speaks about current affairs...," October 18, 2001, translated by Abu 'Iyaad, http://www.fatwaonline.com/news/0011018.htm
Dr. Sayed G. Safavi, Iranian religious scholar and director of the Institute of Islamic Studies, London, England:
“The targeting of innocent persons cannot be allowed. Islam is against any form of terrorism, whether it be carried out by an individual, a group or a state. ... For Muslims to kill civilians unconnected with any attack on them is a crime. The principal law of Islam is: don't attack civilians. This includes civilians of any faith, whether Jewish, Muslim or Christian. According to Islam, all people are the family of God. The target of religion is peace.”
Letter to the Editor, The Daily Telegraph, London, England, June 30, 2003, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../30/dt3001.xml
Iqbal Siddiqui, editor of Crescent International, London, England:
“History also teaches us that the only effective way of challenging oppression and the only effective way of fighting injustice is through force; that is simply the way of the world. Pacifism is all too often a weapon of the status quo.... When Islamic movements in the world do need to resort to the use of force, that force must be used morally. When extreme fringes of those movements are pushed to use force indiscriminately, immorally, wrongly against illegitimate targets, and using illegitimate weapons (such [as] hijacked jumbo jets), those are crimes for which the people who share their cause, who share their view of the world, their understanding of the need to use force, must also criticise them, turn against them, isolate them. Our standards must be higher than those of the people whom we are fighting, because if we descend to their standards then there is no difference between us.”
Iqbal Siddiqui, "Terrorism and political violence in contemporary history," Conference on Terrorism, Institute of Islamic Studies, London, England, November 13, 2001, published in Muslimedia International, February 16-28, 2002, http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/m...error-hist.htm. Earlier version on-line at http://www.islamic-studies.org/terrorconfer.pro.htm
Islamway website:
"In light of these and other Islamic texts, the act of inciting terror in the hearts of defenseless civilians, the wholesale destruction of buildings and properties, the bombing and maiming of innocent men, women, and children are all forbidden and detestable acts according to Islam and the Muslims."
"What Does Islam Say About Terrorism?" http://english.islamway.com/bindex.p...article&id=126
Islamic Commission of Spain:
"Muslims, therefore, are not only forbidden from committing crimes against innocent people, but are responsible before God to stop those people who have the intention to do so, since these people 'are planting the seeds of corruption on Earth'.... The perpetration of terrorist acts supposes a rupture of such magnitude with Islamic teaching that it allows to affirm that the individuals or groups who have perpetrated them have stopped being Muslim and have put themselves outside the sphere of Islam."
"Text of the Fatwa Declared Against Osama Bin Laden by the Islamic Commission of Spain," March 17, 2005, http://webislam.com/?idn=537; original Spanish version: "La Comisión Islámica de España emite una fatua condenando el terrorismo y al grupo Al Qaida," March 10, 2005, http://www.webislam.com/?idn=399.
Fatwa signed by more than 500 British Muslim scholars, clerics, and imams:
"Islam strictly, strongly and severely condemns the use of violence and the destruction of innocent lives. There is neither place nor justification in Islam for extremism, fanaticism or terrorism. Suicide bombings, which killed and injured innocent people in London, are HARAAM - vehemently prohibited in Islam, and those who committed these barbaric acts in London [on July 7, 2005] are criminals not martyrs. Such acts, as perpetrated in London, are crimes against all of humanity and contrary to the teachings of Islam. ... The Holy Quran declares: 'Whoever kills a human being… then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.' (Quran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32) Islam’s position is clear and unequivocal: Murder of one soul is the murder of the whole of humanity; he who shows no respect for human life is an enemy of humanity."
British Muslim Forum, press release of July 18, 2005, http://www.britishmuslimforum.org/vi...ease.php?id=26.
Fiqh Council of North America, an association of 18 Muslim legal scholars, fatwa endorsed by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), the Muslim American Society (MAS), the Association of Muslim Social Scientists (AMSS), the Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers (AMSE), the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), and more than 130 Muslim organizations, mosques and leaders in the United States:
"We have consistently condemned terrorism and extremism in all forms and under all circumstances, and we reiterate this unequivocal position. Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians' life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram - prohibited in Islam - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not 'martyrs.'"
"Fatwa by U.S. Muslims Against Religious Extremism," July 25, 2005, http://www.mpac.org/bucket_downloads...-terrorism.pdf.
Islamic Society of North America, Anti-Terrrorism Anti-Extremism Committee:
"Humanity lives today in an interdependent and interconnected world where peaceful and fair interaction, including interfaith and intra-faith dialogue, is imperative. A grave threat to all of us nowadays is the scourge of religious and political extremism that manifests itself in various forms of violence, including terrorism. In the absence of a universally agreed upon definition of terrorism, it may be defined as any act of indiscriminate violence that targets innocent people, whether committed by individuals, groups or states. As Muslims, we must face up to our responsibility to clarify and advocate a faith-based, righteous and moral position with regard to this problem, especially when terrorist acts are perpetrated in the name of Islam. The purpose of this brochure is to clarify a few key issues relating to this topic, not because of external pressures or for the sake of “political correctness”, but out of our sincere conviction of what Islam stands for."
Islamic Society of North America, "Against Terrorism and Religious Extremism: Muslim Position and Responsibilities," 2005, http://www.balancedislam.org/ATAECbrochure.pdf.
Shaykh Abdulaziz Al-Asheikh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
The London attacks, "targeting peaceful people, are not condoned by Islam, and are indeed prohibited by our religion. ... Attributing to Islam acts of individual or collective killings, bombings, destruction of properties and the terrorizing of peaceful people is unfair, because they are alien to the divine religion."
Fatwa-Online, July 9, 2005, http://www.fatwa-online.com/news/0050709.htm
Shaykh Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhaab al-'Aqeel, professor of creed ('aqeedah) at the College of Proselytising (da'wah), Islamic University of Madinah, Saudi Arabia:
"Terrorism is the terror that is caused by those groups or individuals who resort to killing and wreaking havoc and destruction. Terrorism is therefore, according to the contemporary compilers of modern Arabic dictionaries, killing akin to the riotous killing that is mentioned within the texts of Shar'eeah. As the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wassallam) mentioned with regards to the signs of the end of time, the spread of 'al-Harj' (riotous killing). The meaning of 'al-Harj' is killing and the increase of the spilling blood, which is all from the signs of the end of time. To the extent that the one killing will not know why he is killing and the one that was killed will not know why he/she was killed. Islam is free from this riotous killing, free from this terrorism and free from this kind of corruption. Terrorism is established upon destruction of properties such as factories, farms, places of worship, train stations, airports and the likes; Islam is clearly free from such actions that are based upon corruption and not upon rectification. Terrorists usually say that they are going against the state in which they are based within. This is like the mafia or other criminal organisations that are based on killing people, causing fear and taking their monies. Such criminal organisations have leaders, deputies and individuals that are responsible for establishing regulations for the organisation and individuals responsible for carrying out attacks, and all of them are terrorists causing corruption on the earth. However the ugliest face of terrorism is that which is established in the name of religion, all of the religions from the Prophets (peace be upon them) are free from such terrorism, even if some of the followers of the Prophets participated in such terrorist activities, but the Prophets are free from such corruptions."
Lecture on "The Evils of Terrorism," August 20, 2005, translated in Islam Against Terrorism - v1.20, September 17, 2005, http://www.fatwa-online.com/download...tterrorism.chm
Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti, Malaysian Muslim scholar and research fellow in Islamic philosophy and theology, Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, U.K.:
"If you still insist that your [religious or civil] authority should declare war with the non-Muslim state upon which you wish war to be declared, then the most you could do in this capacity is to lobby your authority for it. However, if your anger is so unrestrained that its fire brings out the worst in you to the point that your disagreement with your Muslim authority leads you to declare war on those you want your authority to declare war on, and you end up resorting to violence, then know with certainty that you have violated our own religious Laws. For then you will have taken the Shari'a into your own hands."
Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti, Defending the Transgressed by Censuring the Reckless against the Killing of Civilians, Germany: Warda Publications, and United Kingdom: Aqsa Press, 2005, p.49, http://www.warda.info/fatwa.pdf
Abd al-Hakim Murad, British Muslim scholar:
"This is a decadence that is profound. And that it happens in the holy land is particularly worrying. Near the muqadsāt, where we are particularly required to conform entirely to the adāb of the Shari’ah. This is a deep subversion. And as for those who think that for reasons of masfahah that the door can be opened there, but somehow that door will remain closed elsewhere in the world, that this door can be opened because the Palestinians are so oppressed and somehow it’s going to help them, but of course we keep it closed in Chechnya and Kahsmir and certainly in London, that logic doesn’t seem to have worked too well. That rage, that desire to self annihilation, to lash out and the men, women and children, whoever in the vicinity, is now becoming a global epidemic. And the ‘ulama who opened the little door now see these legions rushing through it in every place don’t know what to do about it. That door has to be closed. Islam is too good for such practices, for such baseness, for such wild expression of futility and despair and vindictiveness."
Interview, December 16-18, 2005, London-Leeds-Manchester, http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/in...d=33&Itemid=45

See also:
Bernard Haykel, assistant professor of Islamic law at New York University:
"According to Islamic law there are at least six reasons why Bin Laden's barbaric violence cannot fall under the rubric of jihad: 1) Individuals and organizations cannot declare a jihad, only states can; 2) One cannot kill innocent women and children when conducting a jihad; 3) One cannot kill Muslims in a jihad; 4) One cannot fight a jihad against a country in which Muslims can freely practise their religion and proselytize Islam; 5) Prominent Muslim jurists around the world have condemned these attacks and their condemnation forms a juristic consensus (ijma') against Bin Laden's actions (This consensus renders his actions un-Islamic); 6) The welfare and interest of the Muslim community (maslaha) is being harmed by Bin Laden's actions and this equally makes them un-Islamic."
The Dawn newspaper, Karachi, Pakistan, October 8, 2001, http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/08/op.htm#2
Reply

Zulkiflim
06-07-2007, 09:31 PM
Salaam,

Moderate muslim are the best of muslim,for theya re loved by the west

Moderate muslim support gay and leasbian and wishes for gay and lesbian to be imams.
Moderate muslim support the murder of muslim for oil/
Moderate muslima are those who say theya re muslim but campining for the destruction of the Quran.
Moderate muslim are those who speak of ill of fundamental muslim who follow the quran and sunnah.
Moderate muslim are those who attack tehir brothers and sister fro follwoing the quran and Sunnah.

They are the best "muslim" and lvoed by the west.
Reply

Keltoi
06-07-2007, 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Moderate muslim are the best of muslim,for theya re loved by the west

Moderate muslim support gay and leasbian and wishes for gay and lesbian to be imams.
Moderate muslim support the murder of muslim for oil/
Moderate muslima are those who say theya re muslim but campining for the destruction of the Quran.
Moderate muslim are those who speak of ill of fundamental muslim who follow the quran and sunnah.
Moderate muslim are those who attack tehir brothers and sister fro follwoing the quran and Sunnah.

They are the best "muslim" and lvoed by the west.
What a red herring. Moderate Islam is the same as moderate Christianity....we practice our faith and do not condone terrorism or violence in the name of our religion. Is that stance too black and white for you?
Reply

- Qatada -
06-07-2007, 10:08 PM
Yeah ^ however, any muslim leader who called against it clearly using the Qur'an and Authentic Sunnah would be sufficient. The problem is that they usually don't get the coverage.
Reply

Keltoi
06-07-2007, 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Yeah ^ however, any muslim leader who called against it clearly using the Qur'an and Authentic Sunnah would be sufficient. The problem is that they usually don't get the coverage.
Of course non-Muslims would have no idea who that particular individual is or his standing within Islam as a whole. Non-Muslims, who are usually Christian or atheist in the West, are used to thinking about religious edicts as coming from the head of the Church, the Pope. The local cleric down the street probably isn't going to be enough for alot of people, simply because they don't understand that Islam doesn't have a "pope" to make grand declarations.
Reply

lilah
06-07-2007, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Moderate muslim are the best of muslim,for theya re loved by the west

Moderate muslim support gay and leasbian and wishes for gay and lesbian to be imams.
Moderate muslim support the murder of muslim for oil/
Moderate muslima are those who say theya re muslim but campining for the destruction of the Quran.
Moderate muslim are those who speak of ill of fundamental muslim who follow the quran and sunnah.
Moderate muslim are those who attack tehir brothers and sister fro follwoin
g the quran and Sunnah.

They are the best "muslim" and lvoed by the west.

you just don't get it, :laugh:

this post is pure absurdity
Reply

- Qatada -
06-07-2007, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Of course non-Muslims would have no idea who that particular individual is or his standing within Islam as a whole. Non-Muslims, who are usually Christian or atheist in the West, are used to thinking about religious edicts as coming from the head of the Church, the Pope. The local cleric down the street probably isn't going to be enough for alot of people, simply because they don't understand that Islam doesn't have a "pope" to make grand declarations.

I understand, however the problem isn't that in of itself. Rather, its the fact that i myself have never seen a program which allows muslims to express their true views or correct teachings of Islaam to the mass public.

Then with the media naming everything evil 'Islamic' - that's when the problems come up, because the ignorant fall prey to the media without seeing the true Islamic side to it. And then looking down upon muslims because of the clever tactics the media used.
Reply

Keltoi
06-07-2007, 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I understand, however the problem isn't that in of itself. Rather, its the fact that i myself have never seen a program which allows muslims to express their true views or correct teachings of Islaam to the mass public.

Then with the media naming everything evil 'Islamic' - that's when the problems come up, because the ignorant fall prey to the media without seeing the true Islamic side to it. And then looking down upon muslims because of the clever tactics the media used.
Are you from the U.S. or the U.K.? I've seen quite a few interviews with Muslims on American television. I actually agree though, because most of these interviews, if not all, are happening in the context of terrorism. So regardless of what the Muslim says, the conversation is still in the context of terrorism. Which isn't helpful.

On a positive note, coming from the "evil" Fox News channel, one of their business shows had a Muslim businessman on who bought stock in companies that were acceptable, in the religious sense, for Muslims to get involved in. The word terrorism was never mentioned once. That is a good start in my opinion. Have Muslims on T.V. who aren't talking about terrorism.
Reply

- Qatada -
06-07-2007, 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Are you from the U.S. or the U.K.? I've seen quite a few interviews with Muslims on American television. I actually agree though, because most of these interviews, if not all, are happening in the context of terrorism. So regardless of what the Muslim says, the conversation is still in the context of terrorism. Which isn't helpful.

On a positive note, coming from the "evil" Fox News channel, one of their business shows had a Muslim businessman on who bought stock in companies that were acceptable, in the religious sense, for Muslims to get involved in. The word terrorism was never mentioned once. That is a good start in my opinion. Have Muslims on T.V. who aren't talking about terrorism.

U.K :) that's a clever idea, i'm also glad - and the praise is for Allaah - that muslims are opening up their own channels to convey to the people the true message of Islaam. Because obviously we can't keep whining if we don't do nothing ourselves.

However, i'd like it if muslims were given even a little bit of coverage to express the truth and just the basics to clear up many misunderstandings people may have, maybe at a time when many people would watch - maybe to balance out (in a minor way) the truth from the evil which is usually always spread about Islaam being evil etc.


There are documentaries i have seen on the Islamic channel which are quite fascinating, make the message quite clear and clear up misconceptions, so there isn't a problem with their being a lack of muslim directors, but i'm not really sure why they don't allow it. There have been some programmes about the wars which go on in Iraq etc. but again - like you stated, it's just expressing the evil which no side really enjoys except the party who wants to make Islaam look evil.


We'll just have to work hard to inform people of the true teachings of Islaam, and how it's a religion of justice, morality, kindness etc.



Anyway thanks for your time, i'm going for abit. :)



Peace.
Reply

north_malaysian
06-08-2007, 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Moderate muslim are the best of muslim,for theya re loved by the west

Moderate muslim support gay and leasbian and wishes for gay and lesbian to be imams.
Moderate muslim support the murder of muslim for oil/
Moderate muslima are those who say theya re muslim but campining for the destruction of the Quran.
Moderate muslim are those who speak of ill of fundamental muslim who follow the quran and sunnah.
Moderate muslim are those who attack tehir brothers and sister fro follwoing the quran and Sunnah.

They are the best "muslim" and lvoed by the west.

Those are not Moderate Muslims... those are Liberal Muslims...
Reply

barney
06-08-2007, 04:51 AM
The term fundamentalist is misguided.
Some Fundamentals of islam are There is no compulsion in religion.
Another is Fight / slay the unbeleivers whereever you find them.

Now the "Moderate" muslim will look to the "peaceful" surahs, and say they abrogate the Sword Surahs. The "Extremists" vice versa.

The majority of muslims, who would argue for respect tolerance and fine modern day virtues, interpret the Quran and Hadiths or use interpretations of the meanings of them, in this light.

Myself, i think thats a strech. The very rocks are going to ask muslims to kill jews. The "best" interpretations of this are "just the jews who are unjust" or those jews who are "treacherous" or some such other proviso.
I've seen all of those arguements, and I'm (sort-of) glad that the scripts are toned down a little. Mostly I'm glad that they are skipped over in favor of more freindly verses by the greater proportion of western muslims.

Problem is, theres plenty of "extremists" who just quote the Quran as it is literally read. With no gloss-over, no footnotes, no debating of the meanings. just the letters as they appear, to punish, fight, chastise, loot, enslave.

I dont really need to produce a thousand links to the fanatics using these verses. We have all seen them.
I think "Literalist" is a far better term for them.

Now in the west we can and do cry long and hard about "fringe elements", "corruption of the messages" and suchlike.

If it's down to listening to Tony Blair telling me Islam is peace or a "Literalist" waving a koran about and screaming verses straight from the pages, who do i beleive?

I can look at Arab and Muslim nations 100,000 thronging the streets foaming "Death to USA..Death to Israel"

If a single Brit went into the middle of Southampton and held up a little peice of paper saying "Death to Oman", they would face race-hate charges.
And rightly so.

It's time to stop blaming "the west" (oooh..we are so evil, deposing mass muslim-killers like Hussain and Milosovic) and start looking at where the hate really is.

The west can never rid Islam of the literalists, neither should we try. Thats YOUR job.
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barney
06-08-2007, 05:00 AM
Just to qualify the above.

If i come to load islam, i will get a in-depth and somewhat convoluted reply to how a "Sword" Surah is mean to be taken.

If I watch a Video from Jihadunspun, I'll get a Terrorist with a RPG in his fist and a Koran in the other, just quoting the verse directly.
Reply

beespreeteam
06-08-2007, 07:28 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Just to qualify the above.

If i come to load islam, i will get a in-depth and somewhat convoluted reply to how a "Sword" Surah is mean to be taken.

If I watch a Video from Jihadunspun, I'll get a Terrorist with a RPG in his fist and a Koran in the other, just quoting the verse directly.
The Quran tells people numerous times to ponder and reflect upon it's content. That's why there's thousands of people who have spent their entire lives studying and writing books on the Quran.

Sure, there's definitely literal parts, but things many, many things behind an ayah or revelation that you can't just ignore.

This applies to many things in life, actually - but I guess life's your cafeteria eh :)
Reply

beespreeteam
06-08-2007, 07:32 AM
Originally Posted by barney
It's time to stop blaming "the west" (oooh..we are so evil, deposing mass muslim-killers like Hussain and Milosovic) and start looking at where the hate really is.

The west can never rid Islam of the literalists, neither should we try. Thats YOUR job.
http://beespree.com/story.php?title=...s_hate_America

site's a bit funny, it's being updated but the link should still be there.

Have a read, lemme know your thoughts :)

Peace
Reply

guyabano
06-08-2007, 09:07 AM
Originally Posted by beespreeteam
[url]
Have a read, lemme know your thoughts :)

Peace
I like this pass:

And it has been reported that in the Middle East over the past few years, Osama has become the most common name for newborn boys.
Guess, what, during 2nd WW, the most common name for male babies was 'Adolf'

Get the similarity?
Reply

Muezzin
06-08-2007, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by barney
It's time to stop blaming "the west" (oooh..we are so evil, deposing mass muslim-killers like Hussain and Milosovic) and start looking at where the hate really is.

The west can never rid Islam of the literalists, neither should we try. Thats YOUR job.
Yes, I know. I agree. Calm down. Also, please stop treating all Muslims as if they are apologetics. We are trying our best to stop people abusing our religion.
Reply

thirdwatch512
06-08-2007, 09:53 AM
i am glad to see some people condemning terrorism here!!

over the past week as i have been browsing this forum, i have seen some radical, and pretty hateful threads.they really shocked me and scared me in a way. like there was a post about a mosque explosion in india, and someone said "we will take the hindu women in pakistan.. they will get payback" and i was like oh my gosh! how horrible!

and then in the arabic thread there was one REALLY terrible thread.. mocking dead US troops. saying that the troops deserve what they are getting.

i know that doesn't represent all of islam. but it certainly isscary that there are muslim members on here who support terrorism. and i'm glad to see threads like these being started!
Reply

islamirama
06-08-2007, 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
i am glad to see some people condemning terrorism here!!

over the past week as i have been browsing this forum, i have seen some radical, and pretty hateful threads.they really shocked me and scared me in a way. like there was a post about a mosque explosion in india, and someone said "we will take the hindu women in pakistan.. they will get payback" and i was like oh my gosh! how horrible!

and then in the arabic thread there was one REALLY terrible thread.. mocking dead US troops. saying that the troops deserve what they are getting.

i know that doesn't represent all of islam. but it certainly isscary that there are muslim members on here who support terrorism. and i'm glad to see threads like these being started!
Those how bombed the mosque in india need to be captured and brought to justice. Those who say we go take hindu wome in pakistan and harass them are wrong, you don't go aroung harassing innocents who didn't have anything to do with it. That's something the non-muslims have been doing, harassing every muslim and treating every muslim as a terrorists or suspect.

As for the troops in Iraq, not only that is free speech Snip Why? becuase they are the enemies, they are occupying a muslim land and they have been massacring innocents there. No one wants them there, they were sent there on faulty intelligence and this war is illegal by international law. And even my religion gives me the right to hate and pray against those that are the enemies and islam make it incumbant upon us to do jihad and fight against those who invadee our lands, violate our proptery, our honor and oppress us. That is not terrorism, any resistance against occupations seems to be called terrorism by the westerners these days. I"m sure you would pray the same thing if your country was under occupation.

Bush wants us to become "moderate muslims", anyone who is not is a "suspect", a possible "terrorists" and is "against us" as he puts it...



“What's a 'moderate Muslim'?
Someone that doesn't mind the invasion and occupation of Muslim countries and the slaughter of countless people there? We will see the end of 'extremist' Muslims when we see the end of 'extremist' leaders in the West. It's not rocket science although it is in a lot of people's interests to pretend that it is.”
-
Marie Xeno

No calls to violence please, as per the rules for posting in the World Affairs section - Muezzin
Reply

Idris
06-08-2007, 03:35 PM
As for the troops in Iraq, not only that is free speech but also correct to say. I say it and do pray they all come back in bodybags or don't come back at all. Why? becuase they are the enemies, they are occupying a muslim land and they have been massacring innocents there. No one wants them there, they were sent there on faulty intelligence and this war is illegal by international law. And even my religion gives me the right to hate and pray against those that are the enemies and islam make it incumbant upon us to do jihad and fight against those who invadee our lands, violate our proptery, our honor and oppress us. That is not terrorism, any resistance against occupations seems to be called terrorism by the westerners these days. I"m sure you would pray the same thing if your country was under occupation.
I pray for that too.

In the aftermath of September 11, much has been said about the need for "moderate Muslims." But to be a "moderate" Muslim also implies that Osama bin Laden and Co. must represent the pinnacle of orthodoxy; that a criterion of orthodox Islam somehow inherently entails violence; and, consequently, that if I espouse peace, I am not adhering to my full religious duties.

I refuse to live as a "moderate" Muslim if its side effect is an unintentional admission that suicide bombing is a religious obligation for the orthodox faithful. True orthodoxy is simply the attempt to adhere piously to a religion's tenets.
Reply

August
06-08-2007, 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by lilah
how many times do we have to tell the world how terrorism and extremism is wrong and anti islamic before the world hears us? when 9-11 happened, did the media first go to the masajids and talk to the imams? no, the first thing the media did was show people jumping up and down w/joy in Palestine. Since 9-11 the masajids have bent over backwards trying to clear the confusion over islam.

But i guess if people cover their ears, they can't hear much...:laugh: :laugh:
No, the point isn't that people aren't listening. I have been listening to non-terrorist Muslims make the case for Islam as a religion of peace, on points the terrorists are winning the argument. When the average everyday muslims in the street in Palestine are jumping for joy over 9-11, it only strengthens the terrorists argument. Now, I want to reinforce that I don't believe that Islam is a violent religion. I think however, that if things continue to go the way that they're going then the west, or at least the U.S. will become convinced that Islam is violent, and then we will see a much larger war.
Reply

August
06-08-2007, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
As for the troops in Iraq, Snip Why? becuase they are the enemies, they are occupying a muslim land and they have been massacring innocents there.
That's a frightening statement. You listed your location as U.S.A., are you a citizen? If so, then you are condoning the killing of your countrymen, which is treason as far as I'm concerned. Why wish for them to be in bodybags at all? Wouldn't it be more in line with Islam to wish they would change their ways? I am also disturbed by your idea that occupying a Muslim land makes them the enemies of all Muslims. Couldn't a Muslim country be ruled by a madman, such as Saddam, and need to be occupied for the good of everyone else?
Reply

islamirama
06-08-2007, 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by August
That's a frightening statement. You listed your location as U.S.A., are you a citizen? If so, then you are condoning the killing of your countrymen, which is treason as far as I'm concerned. Why wish for them to be in bodybags at all? Wouldn't it be more in line with Islam to wish they would change their ways? I am also disturbed by your idea that occupying a Muslim land makes them the enemies of all Muslims. Couldn't a Muslim country be ruled by a madman, such as Saddam, and need to be occupied for the good of everyone else?
I don't believe in nationalism, that is another religion others can worship all they want. My countrymen are Muslims, regardless of what nationality or race they are. Their blood and my blood is one, their suffering and mine is one, we are one ummah (nation) pass territorial boundaries. Call it treason or call it what you want, i'm entitled to my believes and praying against the destruction of your enemies is far from anything that qualifies by law as treason.

Muslim country cannot be ruled by any other than a Muslim. US invaded that land, has massacred thousands (haditha and fullajah two cities for examle), they kill innocents indiscrimanetly, raped and continue to rape iraqi women they have imprisoned, lets not forget abu gharib and so many like that that have not been caught yet. It is an occupation of Muslim land and an oppression of Muslims. By Islam and by Allah's command, jihaad is a must in such a case. Allah commands us to fight those who oppress you, violate your land, your honor, your lives, to expel them from your land. Regardless of what Bush says, this is a war on Islam and that is what 25 Muslims countries believe according to most recent polls.

As for Saddam, yes he was bad man and so are many other dictators in Muslim lands. But he is still Muslim ruling over Muslims. Islam says we should try to advise such a person and be patient and pray so long as he establish salaah, and if he doesn't then we can go against him and over throw him. Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one." He might've been a bad not not worst then other Muslim leaders we have. Do you remember Shah? the puppet US put in power in iran, he was very oppressive and put his people thru hell. The islamic revolution of 1979 was a reaction to his oppression. So So don't think people won't stand up when they can't take it anymore.

So whether you're disturbed or not, the fact remains. Those that invade and occupy Muslim lands and fight Muslims (war on islam) are clear enemies of Islam.

Allah declares in the Qur'an:
  • "To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to defend themselves), because they are wronged - and verily, Allah is Most Powerful to give them victory - (they are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right - (for no cause) except that they say, 'Our Lord is Allah'.... " 22:39-40
The Qur'an permits fighting to defend the religion of Islam and the Muslims. This permission includes fighting in self defense and for the protection of family and property. The early Muslims fought many battles against their enemies under the leadership of the Prophet Muhammad(S) or his representatives. For example, when the pagans of Quraysh brought armies against Prophet Muhammad(S), the Muslims fought to defend their faith and community. The Qur'an adds:
  • "Fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress limits. Lo! Allah loves not aggressors. ... And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against transgressors." 2:190,193

Besides, who is US to go across the world to overthrow someone like that? US has nukes and has used them as well, how the hell does it get the right to tell others they can't have nukes? And lets not forget this whole war was waged on faulty intelligent and lots of lies.
Reply

vpb
06-08-2007, 05:36 PM
Yvone riddley said once "Have you ever heard a woman being moderately pregenant? she either is pregnant or not. Same is with a muslim, you either are a muslims or you're not".

and I think her statement makes sense a lot.
Reply

August
06-08-2007, 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
Muslim country cannot be ruled by any other than a Muslim.
Many Muslim countries have shown an inability to rule themselves. The truth is, the U.S. must look after it's national interests. If a Muslim country such as Iraq or Afganistan is a threat to U.S. national security, then it is morally right to invade and occupy that country. If muslim nations are unable to live at peace with the rest of the world, then they cannot be allowed to rule themselves. I apply the same thing to any country, not just muslim ones.

As for what gives the U.S. the right. Two things. First, every country has a right to defend itself and it's legitimate national interests. Secondly, as the most powerful country in the world, the U.S. has a responsibility to try to create a better world.
Reply

August
06-08-2007, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
As for Saddam, yes he was bad man and so are many other dictators in Muslim lands. But he is still Muslim ruling over Muslims.
Are you saying, in the hypothetical, that you would rather be ruled over by a cruel muslim than a wise and moral christian? For myself, I would rather live in a democracy with a muslim leader than live in a police state run by a christian.
Reply

Cognescenti
06-08-2007, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
I don't believe in nationalism, that is another religion others can worship all they want. My countrymen are Muslims, regardless of what nationality or race they are. Their blood and my blood is one, their suffering and mine is one, we are one ummah (nation) pass territorial boundaries. Call it treason or call it what you want, i'm entitled to my believes and praying against the destruction of your enemies is far from anything that qualifies by law as treason.
No, it is not treason if you are not a US citizen. However, you might want to refrain from mentioning it near any US serviceman.....on second thought, it might be an interesting social experiment.

Regardless of what Bush says, this is a war on Islam and that is what 25 Muslims countries believe according to most recent polls.
Has anyone attacked you personally?



Besides, who is US to go across the world to overthrow someone like that? US has nukes and has used them as well, how the hell does it get the right to tell others they can't have nukes? And lets not forget this whole war was waged on faulty intelligent and lots of lies.

Well then, get at it man. Quit jawboning and go do something! Let the women and old men do the praying. I will spring for the duct tape so you can tape your hands to the steering wheel (in case your ardor fails you at a crucial time)

Quite possibly this post will fail a politeness test. I would only ask that the deliberately inflammatory comments of this nutbar in this thread be taken down as well.
Reply

barney
06-08-2007, 10:07 PM
It's a list of horribly teneous half-links, where america "supported" various governements and revolutions that they beleived would be mutually supportive of america.

So a country acted in its own self interest. Nothing new there and i cant see the link to my comments. I have to say the list is very short, most people bring up a list of a hundred or more US forign policy decisions from not buying oil at a favorable rate, to robbing kosovo of Zinc or other idoitic claims.

The only US attack on Muslim nations in the last 50 years have been:
Sudan..15 cruise missiles...at a terrorist camp in response to the attack on the USS Cole
Afganistan. (umm refusing to hand over bin-liner)
91 Iraq: To liberate a muslim nation (kuwait)
03 Iraq: Partially Faulty intelligence, but which in the event removed one of the worlds most brutal dictators, which was supported by over 80% of the Iraqi people, and therefore was actually a liberation).

Take away the Cole attack, take away 9/11. No attacks would have occoured.

The US sells arms to Israel, (actually israel makes its own..the US just gives it money to protect itself). Thats the single biggest reason muslims hate America.

Without Americas money, Muslim nations think they can destroy Israel, despite having had 4 full blown attempts and getting caned each time.

Muslim dictatorships keep their people in a state of fear, they keep their power by methods such as from nursery school their people are taught that all the evils in the world are caused by "America". It used to be the USSR, because at least America recognised a god. The USSR had no god.
The people have a lot of anger...it needs directing. well direct it outwards. Wrap up your tin-pot oppressive tyranny in a religious sheen, blame your failing society on the west.
Reply

Fishman
06-08-2007, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Moderate muslim are the best of muslim,for theya re loved by the west

Moderate muslim support gay and leasbian and wishes for gay and lesbian to be imams.
Moderate muslim support the murder of muslim for oil/
Moderate muslima are those who say theya re muslim but campining for the destruction of the Quran.
Moderate muslim are those who speak of ill of fundamental muslim who follow the quran and sunnah.
Moderate muslim are those who attack tehir brothers and sister fro follwoing the quran and Sunnah.

They are the best "muslim" and lvoed by the west.
:sl:
That's liberal Muslims, not moderates.
:w:
Reply

islamirama
06-08-2007, 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by August
Are you saying, in the hypothetical, that you would rather be ruled over by a cruel muslim than a wise and moral christian?
Muslims can't ever be ruled over by non-muslims no matter how moral or wise they are. Muslim country can only have a Muslim ruler and is the rule of Islam. As for a cruel ruler, well the prophet said this

"Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others."

Muslims want good leaders not oppressors. The oppessors are being protected by US because without them US oil interest will be in a limbo. US put shah in power, he was a geocidial lunatic, look at what ppl did to him. They revolted in a revolution and forced him out of power. Look at what mushraf is facing right now, they want him out. There's others like egypt's president and royal family of saudi that are safe by US otherwise do you think they would still be in power?

Also, you said

For myself, I would rather live in a democracy with a muslim leader than live in a police state run by a christian.
You should look at around on this thread, see how many christians here want a war rather then be ruled over by Muslims, even if those are american converts only. As for you, you are already living in a police state, it's 1/2 there and 1/2 is left before it becomes total police state. How many more of your liberty rights will you give up to bush?


Originally Posted by August
Many Muslim countries have shown an inability to rule themselves. The truth is, the U.S. must look after it's national interests. If a Muslim country such as Iraq or Afganistan is a threat to U.S. national security, then it is morally right to invade and occupy that country. If muslim nations are unable to live at peace with the rest of the world, then they cannot be allowed to rule themselves. I apply the same thing to any country, not just muslim ones.

As for what gives the U.S. the right. Two things. First, every country has a right to defend itself and it's legitimate national interests. Secondly, as the most powerful country in the world, the U.S. has a responsibility to try to create a better world.
Many Muslims countries continue live well and enjoy it (malaysia to name one) and these only countries that US has not meddled in. US does not have a puppet regime in place nor protects the evil dictators and their thrones.

US national interest is oil, it wants to keep US friendly regimes in power for that and if anyone doesn't become US friendly (saddam) then they are shown as hitler in the media and faulty intelligence is made to look real in their propaganda and then war is wage. And you US national security was not threatened by iraq or afghan, not from across the world. Do you honestly think they can attack US from all the way over there. As for 9-11, afghan had nothing to do with it except not turning over OBL without proof, which US failed to support. It is morally right for all those Muslims to fight US in any muslim country US presense and occupation is, it is their right by land, by life and by religion to defend themselves.

Every country has a right defend itself, but US has was not in any danger and 9-11, well the verdict is still out as to who the real cuplrit was on that. As for US creating a better world, only world it's creating is a dangerous world. Many countries, even US closest allies, have made statements that it's "war on terror" has made it a more dangerous world. US is far from creating it better world, it's rather the opposite. Do you think most Muslims feel safe in non-muslim countries now with anyone being able to be arrested on somenoe's mere "suspicion"? And how safe do you think americans feel in return when they go to muslim nations cuase of whattheir leaders are doing?
Reply

NoName55
06-09-2007, 05:48 AM
I have Pakistani Nationality, I have served as a legally employed soldier, have brownish black skin color, also am from race/tribe. Am I to be excluded from being a Muslim now?
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 06:49 AM
barney, were you on 'One Para' battalion ??
Reply

- Qatada -
06-09-2007, 07:56 PM
:salamext:


I think i'm just going to close the thread, most of the posts aren't on topic anyway.
Reply

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