Is The Prophet Abraham The Imam Of All Muslims ?

[Balthasar21]

Chapters and Verse please.

[Woodrow]

Chapters and Verse please.

Perhaps you do have a question in here someplace. I have approved this so that you may explain what it is you mean and are asking.

I have not seen, heard or read anything that would indicate that Abraham(PBUH) is the Imam for all Muslims. I do not consider him to be any more or any less than any of the Prophets(PBUT).

Perhaps, you need to clarify your post and let us know what it is you are looking for?

[Balthasar21]

Some Muslims will say '' Yes '' some will say '' No '' .

The Qur'an 2 ; 124 ( In Part Arabic ) Revealed in Medina 624 - 626 A.D. ) .
And remember that Abraham was tried by his lord with certian commands , Which he fulfilled ; He said ; I will man thee an Imam to the nations .. < The Holy Qur'an , 'Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali , McGregor & Werner , 1946 A.D. >

This is a part of The Qur'an '' Some '' [ Avoid ] talking about because they do not want to take on the responsibilities of living the ( Religion of Abraham ) . This is what the Qur'an says about those who reject the ( Religion of Abraham ) .

The Qur'an 2 ; 130 ( In Arabic ) Revealed in Medina 624 - 626 A.D. )
And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly ? Him will be in the hereafter in the ranks of the righteous . < The Holy Qur'an , 'Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali , McGregor & Werner , 1946 A.D. >

So according to the Quraan , Are Muslims going to hell if they reject the religion of Abraham .

[noodles]

First let me ask you what exactly is your definition of an Imam?

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[Woodrow]

Some Muslims will say '' Yes '' some will say '' No '' .

The Qur'an 2 ; 124 ( In Part Arabic ) Revealed in Medina 624 - 626 A.D. ) .
And remember that Abraham was tried by his lord with certian commands , Which he fulfilled ; He said ; I will man thee an Imam to the nations .. < The Holy Qur'an , 'Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali , McGregor & Werner , 1946 A.D. >

This is a part of The Qur'an '' Some '' [ Avoid ] talking about because they do not want to take on the responsibilities of living the ( Religion of Abraham ) . This is what the Qur'an says about those who reject the ( Religion of Abraham ) .

The Qur'an 2 ; 130 ( In Arabic ) Revealed in Medina 624 - 626 A.D. )
And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly ? Him will be in the hereafter in the ranks of the righteous . < The Holy Qur'an , 'Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali , McGregor & Werner , 1946 A.D. >

So according to the Quraan , Are Muslims going to hell if they reject the religion of Abraham .

I guess you don't understand that the religion of Abraham(PBUH) and all of the Prophets(PBUT) is Islam. Adam(PBUH) was the first Prophet(PBUT) and Muhammad(PBUH) was the final Prophet(PBUT) all of the Prophets(PBUT) gave the messagge of Islam.

Are Muslims going to hell if they reject the religion of Abraham(PBUH)?

They would be rejecting Islam so I would say they are heading for hell.

It sounds like you may not know what is meant by an Imam.

[- Qatada -]

Imaam just means leader, and yeah we follow the religion of Prophet Abraham/Ibrahim (peace be upon him.) The people after him distorted it, so Muhammad (peace be upon him) brought them back to it again when Allaah revealed the Qur'an and Wisdom to him.


Allaah says in the Qur'an:

Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.

Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.


[Qur'an 3: 67-8]

And Allaah knows best.

[MustafaMc]

I guess you don't understand that the religion of Abraham(PBUH) and all of the Prophets(PBUT) is Islam. Adam(PBUH) was the first Prophet(PBUT) and Muhammad(PBUH) was the final Prophet(PBUT) all of the Prophets(PBUT) gave the messagge of Islam.
They would be rejecting Islam so I would say they are heading for hell.

It sounds like you may not know what is meant by an Imam.

Yes, this is an example of picking a verse out of context to try to prove one's errant point. The verses before and after this clearly show that the religion of Ibrahim (pbuh) was Islam.

[Joe98]

The verses before and after this clearly show that the religion of Ibrahim was Islam.

Is it nescessary to be a muslim to practice Islam?

[Woodrow]

Is it nescessary to be a muslim to practice Islam?

By definition a Muslim is a person who Practices Islam.

Islam is a verb and roughly means "To submit to God(swt)" Muslim is the noun meaning "a person who performs Islam". ie a person who submits to God(swt)

[noodles]

Don't forget, the person must submit to god *and* believe that Muhammad was the last messenger :X

(Just thought that it should be noted)

[Woodrow]

Don't forget, the person must submit to god *and* believe that Muhammad was the last messenger :X

(Just thought that it should be noted)

Correct, to truly submit to Allah(swt) we do need to follow the five Pillars and that is one of them.

The very minimal we must do to submit to Allah(swt) is to follow the 5 Pillars.


Shahada

(affirmation)
The duty to recite the creed:
"There is nothing worthy of worship save Allah,
and Muhammad is the Messenger of God"



Salat

(prayer)
The duty to worship the One God
in prayer five times each day



Zakat

(almsgiving)
The duty to give away alms and to help the needy



Siyam

(fasting)
The duty to keep the Fast of Ramadan



Hajj

(pilgrimage)
The duty to make the pilgrimage to Mecca
at least once in a lifetime

[Joe98]

Don't forget, the person must submit to god *and* believe that Muhammad was the last messenger

(Just thought that it should be noted)

And therefore we can conclude Abraham was a Muslim!

Or am I missing something?

-

[Woodrow]

And therefore we can conclude Abraham was a Muslim!

Or am I missing something?

-

Possibly the simple thing is that was before Muhammad(PBUH) and if People world wide had followed the Message that was given to Ibrahim(PBUH) there would have been no need for further Prophets(PBUT) as Ibrahim would have been the final messenger.

There were Muslims ever since Adam(PBUH) the problem is people never followed and or corrupted the Message so other Messengers were sent.

Muhammad(PBUH) is the Prophet(PBUH) for all of the world of today and is the final Prophet(PBUH) During the time of Ibrahim(PBUH) Ibrahim(PBUH) was the last but not the final.

My wording is not exactly what I mean, but perhaps it is understandable Astagfirullah.

[Balthasar21]

Imaam just means leader, and yeah we follow the religion of Prophet Abraham/Ibrahim (peace be upon him.) The people after him distorted it, so Muhammad (peace be upon him) brought them back to it again when Allaah revealed the Qur'an and Wisdom to him.


Allaah says in the Qur'an:

Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.

Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.


[Qur'an 3: 67-8]

And Allaah knows best.

Very good answer , But the question had nothing to do with the prophet Muhamad . One could think Some Muslims worship Muhammad like the christians worship Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Christ .

[Woodrow]

Very good answer , But the question had nothing to do with the prophet Muhamad . One could think Some Muslims worship Muhammad like the christians worship Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Christ .

There are some Christians that do believe that. However, that only means they do not understand.

[Balthasar21]

Another question ;

Were the 12 men who followed the messiah Jesus his apostles instead of diciples ?

Chapter & Verses please .

[noodles]

Possibly the simple thing is that was before Muhammad(PBUH) and if People world wide had followed the Message that was given to Ibrahim(PBUH) there would have been no need for further Prophets(PBUT) as Ibrahim would have been the final messenger.

There were Muslims ever since Adam(PBUH) the problem is people never followed and or corrupted the Message so other Messengers were sent.

Muhammad(PBUH) is the Prophet(PBUH) for all of the world of today and is the final Prophet(PBUH) During the time of Ibrahim(PBUH) Ibrahim(PBUH) was the last but not the final.

My wording is not exactly what I mean, but perhaps it is understandable Astagfirullah.

To expand on that, I'll add that there were a total of about 124 000 Prophets, and each one was sent to a different nation to guide the people to the straight path. You should note that we believe that each was a Muslim.

However, there is a difference, these messengers were sent to nations to guide people to believe in one God, and 'at that time' anyone who adhered to the law of these messengers were on the straight path and were called Muslims.

As a result, the definition of a Muslim was belief in One God and whoever was the messenger was his prophet.

When Muhammad (saws) became a prophet, he was to be a messenger to Mankind and not for a single nation. Thus, the definition of a Muslim changed and now was: Belief in one God and Muhammad as the "last" prophet.

(Fellow brothers and sisters, do correct me if I'm wrong.)

[Balthasar21]

There are some Christians that do believe that. However, that only means they do not understand.

Question ; If I May .
Are we trying find away to closed the post , Because the Questions has nothing to do would Muhammad , But you should know by now I never make claim as you say , I can't back up .

[Woodrow]

Another question ;

Were the 12 men who followed the messiah Jesus his apostles instead of diciples ?

Chapter & Verses please .

Odd question? Why should there be anything about that in the Qur'an? I don't believe they are mentioned any place in the Qur'an.

I doubt you will find many Christians who believe the Qur'an.

[Sami Zaatari]

Abraham was made as an imam to nation before, however so that time has passed, there is a hadith that shows when the prophet went to jerusalem and prayed, he was the imam of the prayer between him and ALL the prophets.

[Woodrow]

Question ; If I May .
Are we trying find away to closed the post , Because the Questions has nothing to do would Muhammad , But you should know by now I never make claim as you say , I can't back up .

I was answering your question.

Very good answer , But the question had nothing to do with the prophet Muhamad . One could think Some Muslims worship Muhammad like the christians worship Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Christ .

There are some Christians that do believe that. However, that only means they do not understand.

To me it looked like you were saying some Christians believe we worship Muhammad(PBUH) like they worship Jesus(as). So I answered some do believe that, but they do not understand Islam.

If a person has any understanding of Islam they would see we do not worship Muhammad(PBUH).

[Sami Zaatari]

firstly here is the verse about abraham being made an imam:

002.124
YUSUFALI: And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

the context is obviously refering to abrahams time, that he would be a leader and so on in his generation, that is obvious because when Allah tells ibrahim that he will be made as an imam to the nations ibrahim then asks Allah WHAT ABOUT MY OFFSPRING? hence as you can see, he was made as an imam in his generation and he wanted to know whethor Allah would make more imams from his line, and we know Allah has done that through the prophet Muhammad who became the official imam of all muslims and prophets when he prayed at jerusalem with all the prophets behind him. :)

[Joe98]

To expand on that, I'll add that there were a total of about 124 000 Prophets,

Please provide the chapter and verse in the Koran stating this.

[- Qatada -]

Please provide the chapter and verse in the Koran stating this.

The hadith is authentic and in the Musnad of Imam Ahmad regarding there being 124,000 Prophets of Allaah, and 300 Rasools (Messengers.)


In regard to the verse from the Qur'an:

Those who prefer the life of this world instead of the Hereafter, and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah (i.e.Islam) and seek crookedness therein - They are far astray.

And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

[Qur'an Surah Ibrahim/Abraham 14: 3-4]


For an explanation of that verse, you can also refer to this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...ing-koran.html

specifically these posts:
http://www.islamicboard.com/736551-post12.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/736567-post14.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/736612-post16.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/737367-post20.html

And Allaah knows best.



Peace.

[NoName55]

Please provide the chapter and verse in the Koran stating this.

I do not understand your game, if you do not even believe that there is a God, why would you need to discuss number of His Messengers except for the purpose of trolling?

to discuss branches, one has to see the tree, if there is no tree it can't have any.

[Balthasar21]

Odd question? Why should there be anything about that in the Qur'an? I don't believe they are mentioned any place in the Qur'an.

I doubt you will find many Christians who believe the Qur'an.

That the problem with SOME Muslims and Some Christians Their teacher control what they should read and research . That why I said 90% of people of religion know nothing about their belief's and very little about other's belief's . They only payattention to the media / t.v / radio / newspapers which only have the hateing each other .

[Zulkiflim]

Question ; If I May .
Are we trying find away to closed the post , Because the Questions has nothing to do would Muhammad , But you should know by now I never make claim as you say , I can't back up .

Salaam,

but when asked for your facts you wont asnwers

So pls do make a new thread and tell us why do you say muslim worship Propeht Muhammad saw?

[Woodrow]

That the problem with SOME Muslims and Some Christians Their teacher control what they should read and research . That why I said 90% of people of religion know nothing about their belief's and very little about other's belief's . They only payattention to the media / t.v / radio / newspapers which only have the hateing each other .

In many places I believe that would be an accurate observation. I can't really say that would hold true for much of the US at least in regards to Islam. Many of us here are reverts and for many of us our first exposure would be comparative religion courses at either a University or a Seminary and usually taught by non-Muslims. Islamic teachers are very scarce here in the US. We pretty much have to search for knowledge. To further our education we often buy a dual language Qur'an or a pure English translation and a translation of the Ahadith. For many of us we have not had any contact with Muslims or even know where a Mosque is. It is often not until after we have said the Shahadah and then found a mosque that we begin looking for Islamic Scholars to help us learn more. To a very large extent we have to rely on our own resources and Guidance from Allah(swt) to learn.

I was first introduced to Islam when I began learning Arabic in my very Early 20s it was not until I was 65 years old that i had learned enough to know I had to revert as I felt I was always a Muslim and had just never learned to worship as a Muslim.

[Joe98]

The hadith is authentic and in the Musnad of Imam Ahmad regarding there being 124,000 Prophets of Allaah, and 300 Rasools (Messengers.)

And so the idea came from a man.

Like many ideas of men this idea was invented as a way to legitimise Islam.

And you all believe it!

-

[- Qatada -]

And so the idea came from a man.

Like many ideas of men this idea was invented as a way to legitimise Islam.

And you all believe it!

-

Yeah, who else do you think would convey the message to us? :) obviously God sent a Messenger to us from among mankind - because we are humans, and if God wanted to send a Messenger to angels, He would send an angel. It's that simple.



Regards.

[Woodrow]

And so the idea came from a man.

Like many ideas of men this idea was invented as a way to legitimise Islam.

And you all believe it!

-

I can not say we all do. I can not put words in other people's mouths. I can only say I believe it.

[Balthasar21]

In many places I believe that would be an accurate observation. I can't really say that would hold true for much of the US at least in regards to Islam. Many of us here are reverts and for many of us our first exposure would be comparative religion courses at either a University or a Seminary and usually taught by non-Muslims. Islamic teachers are very scarce here in the US. We pretty much have to search for knowledge. To further our education we often buy a dual language Qur'an or a pure English translation and a translation of the Ahadith. For many of us we have not had any contact with Muslims or even know where a Mosque is. It is often not until after we have said the Shahadah and then found a mosque that we begin looking for Islamic Scholars to help us learn more. To a very large extent we have to rely on our own resources and Guidance from Allah(swt) to learn.

I was first introduced to Islam when I began learning Arabic in my very Early 20s it was not until I was 65 years old that i had learned enough to know I had to revert as I felt I was always a Muslim and had just never learned to worship as a Muslim.

The above maybe true , But one should never accept any belief's be it Islam / Christianity Etc Unless He / She research the history / culture of said belief , And if they're not allow to question these teacher of said belief's they should step away from them , Also research the teaching given to them by their teacher , this way they'll know its not just something throw together .

[Balthasar21]

I was answering your question.



To me it looked like you were saying some Christians believe we worship Muhammad(PBUH) like they worship Jesus(as). So I answered some do believe that, but they do not understand Islam.

If a person has any understanding of Islam they would see we do not worship Muhammad(PBUH).

May I show you something , Then we can get back to the topic ok . Remember I'm asking you can I show you something before you P.M. telling me you have closed / remove my post ok ?

[Balthasar21]

firstly here is the verse about abraham being made an imam:

002.124
YUSUFALI: And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

the context is obviously refering to abrahams time, that he would be a leader and so on in his generation, that is obvious because when Allah tells ibrahim that he will be made as an imam to the nations ibrahim then asks Allah WHAT ABOUT MY OFFSPRING? hence as you can see, he was made as an imam in his generation and he wanted to know whethor Allah would make more imams from his line, and we know Allah has done that through the prophet Muhammad who became the official imam of all muslims and prophets when he prayed at jerusalem with all the prophets behind him. :)

very good move :thumbs_up

[Balthasar21]

Woodrow Question


May I show you something , Then we can get back to the topic ok . Remember I'm asking you can I show you something before you P.M. telling me you have closed / remove my post ok ? ( How Muslims are worshipping Muhammad )


Are you Sunni

[Balthasar21]

Were The 12 Men Who Followed The Messiah Jesus His Apostles Instead Of Disciples ?


Some Muslims will say no because in the following Hadith the word '' Hawari is given the meaning '' Disciple '' , Not apostle .

( 14 ) Chapter the merits of Az Zubair Bin Al - Awwam ; Ibn 'Abbas said , He ( I.E. Az -Zubair ) Was the '' Hawari '' ( I.E. Disciple ) Of The prophet , And the '' Hawarityun were called so because of the whiteness of their clothes . ( Sahih Al Bukhari Volume 5 , page 51 )

If Muslims believe that the word '' Hawaariyuwna '' means '' Disciple '' , Then can you explain why is it that according to the '' Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an it states ;

There can be no reasonable doubt , however , that the word is a borrowing from Abyssinia . The eth , is the usual Eth , translation of ( ef . MK .vi , 30 ) It is used for messenger as early as the Aksum inscription ( Noldeke , Neue Beeitrage , 48 ) .

This is saying that the word '' Hawaariyuwna '' is borrowed from the Ethiopian word . However , in the Ethiopian language it means '' Messenger '' which you render in Arabic as Rasuwl or '' Apostle '' , So , I ask again , were the disciples of the Messiah Jesus ' Apostles ? Yes , according to the Ethiopian origin of the word '' Hawaariyuwna which is found in the Qur'an a total of 5 times .
Hawaariyuwna - The Qur'an 3 ; 52 , 5 ; 114 , 115 ; 61 ; 14 ( twice )

[syilla]

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...n-abraham.html

:thumbs_up

[Woodrow]

Were The 12 Men Who Followed The Messiah Jesus His Apostles Instead Of Disciples ?

What is an apostle and what is a disciple?

According to the dictionary an apostle can be a disciple of Christ(as).

a&#183;pos&#183;tle (-psl)
n.
1.
a. Apostle One of a group made up especially of the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel.
b. A missionary of the early Christian Church.
c. A leader of the first Christian mission to a country or region.
2. One of the 12 members of the administrative council in the Mormon Church.
3.
a. One who pioneers an important reform movement, cause, or belief: an apostle of conservation.
b. A passionate adherent; a strong supporter.

and a disciple is:

dis&#183;ci&#183;ple (d-spl)
n.
1.
a. One who embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of another.
b. An active adherent, as of a movement or philosophy.
2. often Disciple One of the original followers of Jesus.
3. Disciple A member of the Disciples of Christ.



The two words are synonymous. To be an apostle one would be a disciple. That would be like asking if you are called a man or are you called a human.

Some Muslims will say no because in the following Hadith the word '' Hawari is given the meaning '' Disciple '' , Not apostle .

Hawari الحواري translates into English as both or either Apostle, Disciple. There is no distinction for them

( 14 ) Chapter the merits of Az Zubair Bin Al - Awwam ; Ibn 'Abbas said , He ( I.E. Az -Zubair ) Was the '' Hawari '' ( I.E. Disciple ) Of The prophet , And the '' Hawarityun were called so because of the whiteness of their clothes . ( Sahih Al Bukhari Volume 5 , page 51 )

Hawari is either apostle or disciple. There is no difference between them in Arabic.

If Muslims believe that the word '' Hawaariyuwna '' means '' Disciple '' , Then can you explain why is it that according to the '' Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an it states ;

There can be no reasonable doubt , however , that the word is a borrowing from Abyssinia . The eth , is the usual Eth , translation of ( ef . MK .vi , 30 ) It is used for messenger as early as the Aksum inscription ( Noldeke , Neue Beeitrage , 48 ) .

The significance of that is What?

You honestly believe that "Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an" from an anti-Islamic site is a reliable source of information about Islam?

This is saying that the word '' Hawaariyuwna '' is borrowed from the Ethiopian word . However , in the Ethiopian language it means '' Messenger '' which you render in Arabic as Rasuwl or '' Apostle '' , So , I ask again , were the disciples of the Messiah Jesus ' Apostles ? Yes , according to the Ethiopian origin of the word '' Hawaariyuwna which is found in the Qur'an a total of 5 times .
Hawaariyuwna - The Qur'an 3 ; 52 , 5 ; 114 , 115 ; 61 ; 14 ( twice )

الحواري means both apostle and disciple

رسول means Messenger

[Joe98]

Yeah, who else do you think would convey the message to us? :) obviously God sent a Messenger to us from among mankind...

... and this messenger said there were 124,000 other messengers???

-

[Woodrow]

... and this messenger said there were 124,000 other messengers???

-

So!!!!!!!!!

[Balthasar21]

What is an apostle and what is a disciple?

According to the dictionary an apostle can be a disciple of Christ(as).

a·pos·tle (-psl)
n.
1.
a. Apostle One of a group made up especially of the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel.
b. A missionary of the early Christian Church.
c. A leader of the first Christian mission to a country or region.
2. One of the 12 members of the administrative council in the Mormon Church.
3.
a. One who pioneers an important reform movement, cause, or belief: an apostle of conservation.
b. A passionate adherent; a strong supporter.

and a disciple is:

dis·ci·ple (d-spl)
n.
1.
a. One who embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of another.
b. An active adherent, as of a movement or philosophy.
2. often Disciple One of the original followers of Jesus.
3. Disciple A member of the Disciples of Christ.



The two words are synonymous. To be an apostle one would be a disciple. That would be like asking if you are called a man or are you called a human.






Hawari الحواري translates into English as both or either Apostle, Disciple. There is no distinction for them





Hawari is either apostle or disciple. There is no difference between them in Arabic.



The significance of that is What?

You honestly believe that "Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an" from an anti-Islamic site is a reliable source of information about Islam?





الحواري means both apostle and disciple

رسول means Messenger

You know something I though the So-called JewS were the only ones who USE the word ANTI - LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Hummmmmmmm

[Woodrow]

You know something I though the So-called JewS were the only ones who USE the word ANTI - LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Hummmmmmmm

Well since the site that ''' Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an" came from is -------------- and it calls itself antiIslamic it seems the use of anti is appropriate.

[Balthasar21]

Well since the site that ''' Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an" came from is -------------- and it calls itself antiIslamic it seems the use of anti is appropriate.

I have a strong feeling anything anyone say thats not in agreement with your school of though is antiIslamic But hey its cool . No Big Thing

[- Qatada -]

It looks like we've answered the questions then. :)



Thread Closed.