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rav
06-06-2007, 12:26 AM
How important does your religion view charity? Judaism has always viewed charity as one of the most important things. Each year, Jews must calculate 10% of their earning to give to charity. To help your brother out in his time in need is a great mitzvah (deed or commandment). In Judaism, Tzedakah is the Hebrew term most commonly translated as "charity", though it is based on a root meaning "justice" .(צדק). The best way to give charity is to make sure not one soul knows, nor feels ashamed about your giving and not to demand a huge billboard saying you gave money.

An interesting story I read goes as follows:

In the city of Krakow there lived a rich Jew by the name of Israel who was famous for his stinginess. The local beggars had long since given up trying to knock at his door. All attempts by the trustees of the community's various charity funds to elicit at least a token contribution from him were met with polite but adamant refusals.

Israel's utter heartlessness outraged and mystified the Jews of Krakow. From the days of Abraham, charity had been the hallmark of the Jew; in 17th-century Europe, where Jews were subject to frequent confiscations of their property and expulsions from their homes, it was essential to the community's very survival that those of means should aid their impoverish fellows. How could a Jew be so indifferent to the needs of his brothers and sisters? People started referring to the rich miser in their midst as "Israel Goy"1 and the epithet stuck.

Years passed and the rich man grew old and frail. One day, the Krakow Burial Society received a summons to Israel's home. "I feel that my days are numbered," he told them when they came, "and I would like to discuss with you my burial arrangements. I have already had shrouds sewn for me and I've hired a man to recite the kaddish for my soul. There is just one thing remaining: I need to purchase a plot for my grave."

The members of the Burial Society decided that this was their opportunity to collect the debt owed by Israel to the community. "As you know," they said to him, "there is no set price for a cemetery plot. Each Jew pays according to their ability, and the money is used for charitable purposes. Since you are a wealthy man, and since -- if you will excuse our bluntness -- you have not been very forthcoming over the years in sharing the burdens of the community, we think it appropriate to charge you 1000 guldens."

The rich man calmly replied: "For my deeds I shall be judged in the heavenly court. It is not for you to judge what I did or did not do in the course of my life. I had planned to pay 100 guldens for my plot -- quite a respectable sum -- and that is what I shall pay, not a penny more. I'm not asking for any special location or a fancy gravestone. Bury me where you see fit. I have just one request: on my gravestone, I want it to be inscribed 'Here lies Israel Goy.'"

The members of the society exchanged glances: was the old man out of his mind? They spent a few more minutes at his bedside hoping to secure at least a modest sum for the community poor, but finally left his house in exasperation.

The entire town was abuzz with this latest show of miserliness by "Israel Goy." How low can a man sink! Even at death's door, he's hording his wealth, refusing to share his blessings with the needy.

Israel's funeral was a sorry affair. It was difficult to even scrape together the needed quorum of ten to conduct a proper Jewish burial. He was buried off to a side, on the outskirts of the cemetery. No eulogies were held, for what could be said of such a man?

The following Thursday evening, the was a knock on the door of the chief rabbi of Krakow, the famed Rabbi Yomtov Lipman Heller (1579-1654; known as the author of Tosophot Yom Tov). In the doorway stood a man who explained that he had nothing with which to purchase wine, candles, challah and food for the Shabbat. The rabbi gave him a few coins from his private charity fund and wished him a "Good Shabbat".

A few minutes later there was another knock on the door, heralding a similar request. A third petitioner followed, and then a forth and a fifth. Within the hour, no less than twenty families came to ask for the rabbi's aid to meet their Shabbat expenses. The rabbi was mystified: nothing like this had happened before in all his years in Krakow. Why this sudden plague of poverty?

Rabbi Heller called an emergency meeting of the trustees of the community's charity founds, but they could not explain the phenomenon. They, too, had been deluged with hundreds of requests for aid in the last few hours. The communal coffers had been virtually emptied!

As if on cue, there was another knock on the door. "Tell me," asked the rabbi after handing a few coins to the latest petitioner, "how did you manage until now? What did you do last week?"

"We bought on credit at the grocer's," replied the pauper. "Whenever we needed food and did not have with what to pay, the merchant said it was not a problem -- he just wrote it down in his ledger. He didn't even bother us about payment. But now he says that that arrangement is over."

Investigation revealed that hundreds of families in Krakow had subsisted this way -- up to now. For some reason, none of the grocers, fishmongers and butchers were willing to extend credit any longer to the town's poor.

The rabbi called the town's food merchants to his study and demanded to know what was going on. At first they refused to tell him. But Rabbi Heller was adamant. "You're not leaving this room," he insisted, "until you tell me what this is all about."

Finally, the truth came out. For years, Israel had supported hundreds of the poorest families in Krakow. Every week the town's merchants would present the bill to him, and he paid in full. His only condition was that not a soul, not even their closest family members, should know. "If any one of you breathes a word of this to anyone," he threatened, "you won't see another copper from me ever again."

Rabbi Yomtov Lipman was shattered. Such a special person had lived in their midst, and they, in their haste to judge him, had insulted him and reviled him.

The rabbi announced that the shloshim (30th day anniversary of the passing) of Israel shall be a public fastday. All adults will neither eat nor drink from morning to evening, and all will gather at the cemetery to beg forgiveness from the deceased.

The rabbi himself eulogized Israel. "You," he cried, "fulfilled the mitzvah of tzedakah (charity) in its most perfect form -- without taking any credit for the deed, and ensuring that no recipient of your generosity should ever stand ashamed before his benefactor or fee l indebted to him. And we repaid you with derision and scorn..." The rabbi expressed the wish that when his own time came, he should be laid to rest next to Israel. "We buried you near the fence, like an outcast, but I shall consider it a great honor and privilege to be buried near you!"

The rabbi also instructed that the rich man's last wish be fulfilled. On the marker raised above the grave were etched the words "Here lies Israel Goy". However, one word was added to the inscription -- the word kadosh, "holy one". And so the inscription reads to this day on the gravestone adjoining that of the famed Rabbi Yomtov Lipman Heller in the old Jewish cemetery of Krakow: "Here lies Israel Goy Kadosh."2

FOOTNOTES
1. Goy literally means "nation"; in common Yiddish usage, the term is used to designate one "of the nations" -- i.e., a non-Jew.
2. Literally, "The holy nation Israel."
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rav
06-06-2007, 01:58 PM
I'd love to hear other stories if any of you have them.
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Keltoi
06-06-2007, 02:02 PM
Obviously charity is a big part of being Christian. The local churches in my area are constantly handing out free food, clothing, toys for kids, etc, etc. Not to mention housing the homeless.
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rav
06-06-2007, 02:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Obviously charity is a big part of being Christian. The local churches in my area are constantly handing out free food, clothing, toys for kids, etc, etc. Not to mention housing the homeless.
Shalom,

Is it a Churches "duty" to house anyone who seeks refuge within its walls (as long as they have commited no crime). Or is that a TV myth that I picked up on?
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Keltoi
06-06-2007, 02:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rav
Shalom,

Is it a Churches "duty" to house anyone who seeks refuge within its walls (as long as they have commited no crime). Or is that a TV myth that I picked up on?
I suppose it would be considered a duty, as many Catholic churches are housing illegal immigrants against state and federal law. It would be a rare case where someone in true need of help or housing was turned away by a church.
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- Qatada -
06-06-2007, 04:08 PM
Hey.


Each year, a muslim must pay Zakaah (in the arabic language, which comes from the root word Tazkiyah = to purify) which is 2.5% of our wealth. There are many, many verses within the Qur'an which encourage this. And this wealth is usually given to the orphan, the needy, the wayfarer etc.


Along with that we are encouraged to give additional/optional charity which is called Sadaqa. Here are just a few Prophetic sayings in regard to that;



The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man giving a dirham as sadaqah (charity) during his life is better than giving one hundred dirhams as sadaqah (charity) at the moment of his death. [Abu Dawud]


The Prophet said, "Enjoining all that is good is a Sadaqa."[Sahih Al-Bukhari 8.50]



The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "Shall I not guide you to the most excellent sadaqah? It is to provide for your daughter when she is sent back to you and has no one but you to provide for her." [Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah transmitted it.]


In the Qur'an, God/Allaah Almighty says:
Who is he that will lend to Allâh a goodly loan so that He may multiply it to him many times? And it is Allâh that decreases or increases (your provisions), and unto Him you shall return.

[Qur'an Al-Baqarah (the cow) 2:245]


If i can find any relevant stories, i will post them soon inshaa Allaah (God willing.)

However, there are many narrations in which the pious among the believers would fear giving their charity in public, they would run towards a poor man when he would be asleep, place their wealth next to him and quickly go back home out of fear that they may be showing off, they wanted their reward off the One who is All Aware instead of fame among the people.


This link may also be useful:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...gratitude.html



Regards.
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Karina
06-06-2007, 09:37 PM
I have taken it upon myself for a number of years now to contribute a percentage of my earnings to a selection of charities - not because of religion, but because I feel it is my moral duty as a human being to share at least part of my (v.small!) wealth (but wealth in the eyes of many) with others - or contibute towards saving this beautiful planet of ours.

If everyone in my country gave just £5 per month - the equivalent of less than 2 BigMac meals (eeuggghhh!) we would make the world so much more a better place to live............................... :exhausted


PS McDonalds also have a lot to answer for........gggrrrr!!!!
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جوري
06-06-2007, 11:02 PM
Shalom/salaam Rav:

59 verses on zakat (Alms giving) sadaqa in the quran


from which one of my favorite

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practise regular charity, to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing. (2:177)
Just follow the link, I can't cut and pate them all... but I believe heaven has many doors, one of them especially for those who give to charity not just as mandated by the pillars of Islam as part of income.

:w:
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جوري
06-06-2007, 11:18 PM
Salaam Rav.. some more stories for you, but these aren't from the Quran, they are ahadith, each one is very short, I found many, but just grabbed the first few I have read
enjoy :)

Volume 2, Book 24, Number 502:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) said, "A man said that he would give something in charity. He went out with his object of charity and unknowingly gave it to a thief. Next morning the people said that he had given his object of charity to a thief. (On hearing that) he said, "O Allah! All the praises are for you. I will give alms again." And so he again went out with his alms and (unknowingly) gave it to an adulteress. Next morning the people said that he had given his alms to an adulteress last night. The man said, "O Allah! All the praises are for you. (I gave my alms) to an adulteress. I will give alms again." So he went out with his alms again and (unknowingly) gave it to a rich person. (The people) next morning said that he had given his alms to a wealthy person. He said, "O Allah! All the praises are for you. (I had given alms) to a thief, to an adulteress and to a wealthy man." Then someone came and said to him, "The alms which you gave to the thief, might make him abstain from stealing, and that given to the adulteress might make her abstain from illegal sexual intercourse (adultery), and that given to the wealthy man might make him take a lesson from it and spend his wealth which Allah has given him, in Allah's cause."
Volume 2, Book 24, Number 488:
Narrated Zaid bin Wahab:

I passed by a place called Ar-Rabadha and by chance I met Abu Dhar and asked him, "What has brought you to this place?" He said, "I was in Sham and differed with Muawiya on the meaning of (the following verses of the Quran): 'They who hoard up gold and silver and spend them not in the way of Allah.' (9.34). Muawiya said, 'This verse is revealed regarding the people of the scriptures." I said, It was revealed regarding us and also the people of the scriptures." So we had a quarrel and Mu'awiya sent a complaint against me to 'Uthman. 'Uthman wrote to me to come to Medina, and I came to Medina. Many people came to me as if they had not seen me before. So I told this to 'Uthman who said to me, "You may depart and live nearby if you wish." That was the reason for my being here for even if an Ethiopian had been nominated as my ruler, I would have obeyed him .


Volume 2, Book 24, Number 490:

Narrated Ibn Masud:

I heard the Prophet saying, "There is no envy except in two: a person whom Allah has given wealth and he spends it in the right way, and a person whom Allah has given wisdom (i.e. religious knowledge) and he gives his decisions accordingly and teaches it to the others."


Volume 2, Book 24, Number 499:

Narrated Aisha:

A lady along with her two daughters came to me asking (for some alms), but she found nothing with me except one date which I gave to her and she divided it between her two daughters, and did not eat anything herself, and then she got up and went away. Then the Prophet came in and I informed him about this story. He said, "Whoever is put to trial by these daughters and he treats them generously (with benevolence) then these daughters will act as a shield for him from Hell-Fire." (See Hadith No. 24, Vol. 8).


Volume 2, Book 24, Number 501:

Narrated 'Aisha:

Some of the wives of the Prophet asked him, "Who amongst us will be the first to follow you (i.e. die after you)?" He said, "Whoever has the longest hand." So they started measuring their hands with a stick and Sauda's hand turned out to be the longest. (When Zainab bint Jahsh died first of all in the caliphate of 'Umar), we came to know that the long hand was a symbol of practicing charity, so she was the first to follow the Prophet and she used to love to practice charity. (Sauda died later in the caliphate of Muawiya).
Volume 2, Book 24, Number 504:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "Seven people will be shaded by Allah under His shade on the day when there will be no shade except His. They are:

(1) a just ruler;

(2) a young man who has been brought up in the worship of Allah, (i.e. worship Allah (Alone) sincerely from his childhood),

(3) a man whose heart is attached to the mosque (who offers the five compulsory congregational prayers in the mosque);

(4) two persons who love each other only for Allah's sake and they meet and part in Allah's cause only;

(5) a man who refuses the call of a charming woman of noble birth for an illegal sexual intercourse with her and says: I am afraid of Allah;

(6) a person who practices charity so secretly that his left hand does not know what his right hand has given (i.e. nobody knows how much he has given in charity).

(7) a person who remembers Allah in seclusion and his eyes get flooded with tears."
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rav
06-07-2007, 03:21 AM
Shalom,

Interesting stories Purest Ambrosia! I especially liked the very first one.
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syilla
06-07-2007, 03:45 AM
http://www.zakat.com.my/indexenglish.cfm



Zakat Institution has not played a significant role so far, the main reason is the small amount of zakat collected in the country. It is very small (about RM 408 Million in 2003) compared to the revenue of the government (which is about RM 89.2 billion from tax and other revenues) Therefore, development of the Muslim community in this country does not and cannot depend on zakat money. Zakat is such a small portion. The economic, educational and social needs of the community are financed almost wholly from government revenue. If a national zakat organisation is set up and the collection in Malaysia is about RM 700
million a year.

The projected collection include zakat on business if they are given rebate from corporate tax.Even though it is still a small amount compared to government revenue and the general economy, the zakat institution may then be able to play some significance role in meeting some of the needs of the community, provided effective distribution programs are carried out in all the states to complement government programs. The challenge is to be able to make an impact on the community using zakat money of about RM 430 million a year collected by the various Islamic councils in the country. Overall the malaysian economy is many times larger, namely about 230 billion ringgit for a population of about 25 million people of whom about 61 are Muslims.
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syilla
06-07-2007, 03:49 AM
To answer your queries, let me explain generally the distinction between the 2 main types of zakat :
zakat on self (zakat fitr or fitrah);
and zakat on wealth (zakat mal),
the latter actually comprising all the other types of zakat, such as on business, on savings, on income, on crops, on livestock, on gold, on minerals, on hidden treasures unearthed, etc.

Zakat on self is a per head payment eqv.to about USD1.30 per head (originally in terms of wheat or dates or rice of about 2.25 kilogram) paid during the month of Ramadhan by the head of a family for himself and his dependents to the zakat collector (amil) for purpose of onward distribution to the less fortunate so that they can also celebrate the completion of the Ramadhan month compulsory- fasting,the celebration being on the 1st of Syawal month (it ensues immediately after Ramadhan month) called 'Idil Fitri'.

The USD1.30 is a currency eqv of the Malaysian zakat fitrah rate of ringgit 3.30 per person. The proper US rate for zakat on self (zakat fitrah) in USA should be the current purchasing power to buy food for another needy person for one meal, i.e. the needy person can join in celebrating the completion of the Ramadhan-month fasting. Another way of looking at it: what is the cost of 2.25 kilo of wheat in US, the money value of that can be the zakat rate on self payable by an eligible zakat payer to another needy Muslim. In a community or country where there is no organised system for collection of zakat, then the payment can be made direct by the payer to the poor families. The cut off time for payment or giving of zakat is just before the start of the Idil Fitri prayers.

On the other hand,the zakat on wealth is payable by a payer at any time of the year after his 12 months ('haul') of his wealth reaching or exceeding the exemption limit ('nisab'). The rate is 2.5% of zakatable wealth. For crops, it need not be a year,but immediately after harvesting. The rate is 10%

The zakat should be given to the zakat authority, if it exists in a community or country, because the purpose is more widespread than zakat fitr. Zakat on wealth is for 8 categories of receipients or uses, namely the destitute, the poor, the collectors/zakat administration costs, the new converts, to free slaves, to pay for some types of debts, for activities or programs to defend / spread the religion, and lastly, for stranded wayfarers/travellers.

Now, to answer specifically:

Q1. Based on Malaysian experience/situation, practically all eligible Muslims pay zakat on self (zakat fitrah). The family head will go to the authorised 'amil' or zakat collector appointed by the respective Islamic Affairs Council (each state in Malaysia has a Council - there are 14 Councils) during Ramadhan fasting month, or not later than the morning of 1st Swawal month before Idil Fitri prayers, to pay zakat fitrah. In Malaysia, payment is received from about 11 million persons at about Malaysian Ringgit 3.30 per person out of a total Muslim population of about 12 million, (gross about 33 million ringgit for this type of zakat alone, out of a total of about 130 million ringgit all types).

As for zakat on wealth, the fulfilling of this duty is about 1 out of 5 eligible persons currently, since the awareness campaign is relatively new. Only when PPZ - 'Pusat Pungutan Zakat' (zakat collection centre) was set up in 1991 that the campaign to raise consciousness of paying zakat on wealth, instead of the usual zakat on self, seriously begun and the management /administration made more systematic, including computerisation.

The big picture for most countries, we understand, is the same, that is quite diligent payment of zakat fitr, and very low percentage paying zakat on wealth. Some of the reasons could be attributed to lack of an organised system and no clear authority, especially in distribution of the zakat already collected.

Q2. In Malaysia, the Islamic Affairs Councils of the various states and the Federal Territory of Kuala Lumpur organise the collection and distribution of zakat. Distribution is not just giving of monthly cash to the destitute and poor especially the old and invalid, but the running of various aid programs and setting up of homes and centres. The syariah (Muslim law) advises that it is the responsibility of the government to set up a proper administration for collecting and distributing zakat (assuming its a Muslim majority), but in most countries, it is left for the Muslim communities to organise it. The confidence factor then comes into play. If a community has agreed generally that a certain organisation should be responsible, then zakat should be channeled to it. The organisation must then organise the programs and channel of distribution, within the prescribed categories.Administration costs for example are allowed, but must never exceed 1/8th of total zakat available. Paying direct to the needy individually would not create long term and sustained benefits, and there won't be a zakat institution to be responsible overall.

Q3. Organisation: Malaysia may be unique in having a clear authority to collect and distribute zakat for each state recognised by both the government and the community, so choice does not arise. But for countries or communities not organised properly, then the organisation given the mandate by the majority of Muslims in the state or area should be the channel. The concept of community centring on the local mosque, can be the choice. The mosque council selected at annual meetings of the community can be the organisation to fulfill the role. Proper administration is the rule and the prequisite to gain confidence. So it is a question of trust, responsibility and obligation in adhering to a commandment of God.

Q4.There are definitely variations in interpretations. But many of the main aspects of zakat are uniform. In the end ,what matters is for individuals who have been blessed by Allah with a certain level or amount of wealth that exceed the 'nisab' and have completed the 12 months 'haul' to do their duty of obeying Allah's command.

In Malaysia, the approach of PPZ (zakat collection centre) Kuala Lumpur is to give guidelines and explanations, and the rest is up to each individual's conscience. The jump in collections 6 times of that 5 years ago is proof of the soundness of this approach. Of course there are those who argue that force must be used, even 'declaring war' on reluctant Muslims.

Q5.The best book in our view is the one written by Professor Dr Yusuf AL-Qardhawi "Fiqh Zakat" (Muassah Al Risalah, Beirut, Lebanon,1973) . Websites - well, you have the experience to browse and spot them. In terms of practical models and pragmatism, then we believe the PPZ way in Kuala Lumpur is the modern day model for zakat collection.

In conclusion, we believe that a proper organisation of zakat operations in various communities of Muslims, whether they live under Muslim or non Muslim governments is the key, not the examination of detail explanation of zakat laws or fiqh. People will pay to organisations entrusted with zakat only when they are confident of its administration, otherwise they will look for deserving families and programs on their own.

So much of the stuff on the internet about zakat are just pointless examination and arguments about what those individuals think should be the correct interpretation of zakat laws. No doubt,some reflect general consensus. Time could be more productively spent on how to make Muslims better off economically, smarter businessmen, create more prosperous societies - eventually, everbody becoming zakat payers! That is the real added value. Allah knows best.

Haji Mohamed Dahan,PPZ. Add/View Comments to this page.
source
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Pygoscelis
06-07-2007, 05:25 AM
Charity in its most perfect form is charity done with no attachment to religion or any other "message". I am weary of charities when they have any attachment to a religious organization. That doesn't itself disqualify me from supporting them but it is a surefire sign that something other than charity itself may be involved.
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جوري
06-07-2007, 05:28 AM
perhaps you missed the point of

(6) a person who practices charity so secretly that his left hand does not know what his right hand has given (i.e. nobody knows how much he has given in charity).
that is the point to charity... to help those less fortunate, not for the sake of flaunting or to seek people's approval!

peace!
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Pygoscelis
06-07-2007, 05:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
that is the point to charity... to help those less fortunate, not for the sake of flaunting or to seek people's approval!
Great! We finally agree on something. Keep charity for charity's sake and keep religion OUT OF IT.
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Malaikah
06-07-2007, 05:51 AM
sorry Pygoscelis, but it is something we will have to disagree on. In Islam, one's intention when giving charity should be to please God first, and to help the needy second.
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جوري
06-07-2007, 05:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
sorry Pygoscelis, but it is something we will have to disagree on. In Islam, one's intention when giving charity should be to please God first, and to help the needy second.
lol sis... I was about to say something vaguely similar to that, though not in your kind words... I believe you yourself have just passed a sadaqah :statisfie
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Pygoscelis
06-07-2007, 07:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
sorry Pygoscelis, but it is something we will have to disagree on. In Islam, one's intention when giving charity should be to please God first, and to help the needy second.
It clearly isn't pure charity if it is being done with an ulterior motive.
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Malaikah
06-07-2007, 07:29 AM
Maybe not by your standards but it certainly is by ours.
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duskiness
06-07-2007, 10:55 AM
compare:

Volume 2, Book 24, Number 504:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "Seven people will be shaded by Allah under His shade on the day when there will be no shade except His. They are:

(6) a person who practices charity so secretly that his left hand does not know what his right hand has given (i.e. nobody knows how much he has given in charity).
and

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
(Matthew 6)

we have more in common than we think :D
I can recall one more story from Gospels about charity:

41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,[j]worth only a fraction of a penny.[k]
43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."
(Mark 12)

Rav - it's such a nice topic. And your story is also great. The fact that it took place in Krakow makes it even better ;)
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Malaikah
06-07-2007, 10:58 AM
Beautiful story duskiness. :)
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syilla
06-08-2007, 05:08 AM
i was digging up the old thread...

then i realised this is the same topic as this one...

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...e-charity.html

created by : therebbe
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rav
06-08-2007, 01:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It clearly isn't pure charity if it is being done with an ulterior motive.
Shalom,

Is there really much of a point for you to come into this thread to tell us that religious charity is not "pure" charity? Please, pygoscelis, do not fool yourself. In its traditional legal meaning, the word "charity" encompasses religion, first of all. Second, who on earth are you to define what charity is “pure”. I will be the first to say that religious charities of all different types of faith are at the forefront in the battle against starvation in Africa and the fight against AIDS. Maybe these people have no inherent worth to you, since they do really nothing in the area of being “productive” world citizens, yet I view their worth as just as valuable as all of humanity. “Pure” charity, is charity that helps people. Yes, it is of course best to give without seeking any recognition as the main character “Israel goy” of the story did, but I sincerely doubt the small child in Darfur, tears streaming from his eyes, begging his mother for food as he watches a fly, really cares how, or why the charity was given. What you said took some real “chutzpah” which in Yiddish means some real “audacity”.

Rav - it's such a nice topic. And your story is also great. The fact that it took place in Krakow makes it even better ;)
Shalom duskiness,

Have you been to Krakow before? I have, although I must admit that the mood was not very positive when I was there.

then i realised this is the same topic as this one...

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...e-charity.html (Does Islam require you to give to charity?)
It is a bit different, in that this thread is about different types of giving charity. Like refusing recongnition, or wanting a huge spotlight.
Reply

duskiness
06-08-2007, 02:33 PM
that's offtopic...
format_quote Originally Posted by rav
Shalom duskiness,
Have you been to Krakow before?
Many, many times. There were years when I was there at least twice a month for few days. I really like the city. It has it's soul.

I have, although I must admit that the mood was not very positive when I was there.
Auschwitz/Oswiecim? :-[ Or was there something different that spoiled your mood? I bet you have seen Jewish district - Kazimierz? It a bit melancholic - seeing traces after people and culture now gone. But there are also thing there that, bring hope and life there (of course doesn't make what is empty today, full once again, but...), like Jewish Culture Festival Have you seen something more of Poland?

Friday so:
Shabbat Shalom, Rav
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-09-2007, 12:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rav
Shalom,

Is there really much of a point for you to come into this thread to tell us that religious charity is not "pure" charity?
Sure is. The title of the thread itself appears to be claiming that religious charity IS pure, but if its done primarily for the purpose of religious practice and NOT for the sake of helping others I say this claim is wrong.

Second, who on earth are you to define what charity is “pure”.
Who am I? I'm Pygoscelis. And I have as much right to note these things as anybody else. If you define charity as "helping others" then religious charity is not purely that. If you wish to define charity in another way, ie religiously, then this is simply a matter of semantics. Charity in the modern sense is usually meant to mean the definition I gave it though.

I will be the first to say that religious charities of all different types of faith are at the forefront in the battle against starvation in Africa and the fight against AIDS.
And I'm glad that they are. But their motives still matter. Are they doing this because they wish to help these people or are they doing this because they think it will get them into heaven? Moreover, do they also happen to preach to the Africans against condom use (from their religious dogma), endangering many African lives? Yes, they do.

Maybe these people have no inherent worth to you, since they do really nothing in the area of being “productive” world citizens, yet I view their worth as just as valuable as all of humanity.
Straw man (ie, I said or implied no such thing). And a pretty mean spirited one at that. You really think I see this people that way?
Reply

Philosopher
06-09-2007, 02:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Charity in its most perfect form is charity done with no attachment to religion or any other "message". I am weary of charities when they have any attachment to a religious organization. That doesn't itself disqualify me from supporting them but it is a surefire sign that something other than charity itself may be involved.
Amen to that!

I find it barbaric that people need to be under the command of a false deity to help the unfortunate.

[removed]
Reply

Malaikah
06-09-2007, 02:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Philosopher
I find it barbaric that people need to be under the command of a false deity to help the unfortunate.
What proof do you have that we would not give in charity if we were atheists? (God forbid).

None. So stop over-simplifying the matter.

That being said, I must note that Jews are cheap as hell :D
Take your idiocy elsewhere.
Reply

snakelegs
06-09-2007, 02:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Philosopher
Amen to that!

I find it barbaric that people need to be under the command of a false deity to help the unfortunate.

That being said, I must note that Jews are cheap as hell :D
[MOUSE]bigot alert![/MOUSE]
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-09-2007, 03:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
What proof do you have that we would not give in charity if we were atheists? (God forbid).
From what I've read of your posts I think you yourself would be quite charitable if an atheist.

I just would prefer any help you may give to be given by itself and without an attached religious "message". This may already be how you operate. It isn't how many relgious "charities" operate though. Which is why I'm careful to investigate any charity linked to a religion before supporting them. Some are very good at keeping religion out of the help, only using it to motivate themselves in their work (these I support). Others will actually require those receiving aid to go to prayer halls. And then there is everything in between.

People in need of charity help are vulnerable and should NOT be preyed upon by religious missionaries. Doing so is one step away from brainwashing. Lifting people up in conjunction with a message. The only thing that separates it from brainwashing is that the helpers didn't cause the downtrodden status of those helped. Then again in some particular cases (ie the old Jesuit missionaries in colonial America), that isn't so clear.
Reply

Malaikah
06-09-2007, 03:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I just would prefer any help you may give to be given by itself and without an attached religious "message".
Well of course, just because we give charity with the intention of pleasing God, doesn't mean we attach a Quran to that money or anything.

An example would be of the people who used to give charity so secretly that they used to just leave the money at the door steps of the poor people, and the poor people had no idea where the money was coming from.

And of course I would avoid giving in charity to organisations who are affiliated with a religion other than Islam since I don't trust their intentions either.

However I don't see why we it is wrong to give charity under the name of Islam without forcing the people you are giving money or help to to embrace Islam. If the aim is to show them that Islam is a religion that calls for helping others, then I have no problem with that.

Of course, I don't expect you to agree on that.
Reply

Joe98
06-09-2007, 05:50 AM
I see some religions have rules about charity. In other words it’s their duty.

The most perfect form of charity is to give without having to.

Only the non-religious give to charity without having to.

-
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Philosopher
06-09-2007, 06:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
I see some religions have rules about charity. In other words it’s their duty.

The most perfect form of charity is to give without having to.

Only the non-religious give to charity without having to.

-
Absolutely!

You dont need Krishna or Yahweh to feel bad about a starving child on the streets. If your gods cared so much about the poor, they could easily bring those unfortunate to affluence.
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-09-2007, 06:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
And of course I would avoid giving in charity to organisations who are affiliated with a religion other than Islam since I don't trust their intentions either.
Well then there's no reason for me to speak further on this point, as you know exactly how I feel. Just switch "other religion" to "all religion" and we're on the same wavelength.
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Pygoscelis
06-09-2007, 06:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
I see some religions have rules about charity. In other words it’s their duty.

The most perfect form of charity is to give without having to.

Only the non-religious give to charity without having to.

-
I do kind of feel obliged to help. If I didn't help I'd feel bad about myself.

I feel that it is our duty to help the less fortunate, not because we are religious people, but because we are fellow human beings. :D
Reply

glo
06-09-2007, 08:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I do kind of feel obliged to help. If I didn't help I'd feel bad about myself.

I feel that it is our duty to help the less fortunate, not because we are religious people, but because we are fellow human beings. :D
Arguably, then, even non-religious people help others for their own 'personal gain':
  • Perhaps to 'feel better about themselves' - doing good to others makes us feel good about ourselves
  • Perhaps to ease their guilt for leading a wealthy, secure life, when others are starving


To be honest, I don't think I have ever given to charity thinking 'I don't really want to do this, but I better - just to get in God's good books!'
I think ultimately humans are wired to see each others' need, and help when we can (at least, I like to think so!)

I tend to agree with what rav said in an earlier post:
There is so much need in the world! The developed nations hold the money, the wealth, the resources to ease the burden of the poor.
If everybody started to give to and help those in need today and every day, we can make this world a better place!
Whether we are doing it for God or for other reasons should be a secondary consideration.
That we are doing it should be much more important!

Peace
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-10-2007, 02:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
There is so much need in the world! The developed nations hold the money, the wealth, the resources to ease the burden of the poor.
If everybody started to give to and help those in need today and every day, we can make this world a better place!
Whether we are doing it for God or for other reasons should be a secondary consideration.
That we are doing it should be much more important!

Peace
I agree completely. I am just being careful to add that another important thing is that we do it without purposefully or inadvertantly brainwashing the less fortunate to our benefit. This applies equally in and out of religion. I also oppose aid to foreign countries with a "side with us on X international issue" message. That isn't charity, but coercion.
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KAding
06-14-2007, 09:13 AM
I'm somewhat confused why this charity is charity in its 'most perfect form'. Surely if you give charity to please God you still put the focus on the one that gives the charity, in which case it is not about those that receive and need it.

In a similar vain, shouldn't 'charity in its most perfect form' take into account its effectiveness? The point is to get maximum effect for your charity, not self-congratulations on your intent or the submission to a religious command about x% charity. The point of charity is to help as much people as you can, to relieve as much suffering as possible. The intentions of the giver are hardly relevant IMHO. So what if some people stroke their ego by proclaiming they gave money? I am convinced lots of people can also stroke their ego by keeping it quiet, especially if religion commands them to keep it quiet: "I gave money and didn't tell anyone, ain't I a good guy" :) . If stroking the ego of donors leads to more charity I'm all in favor of it!

Besides, to be quite honest I've become quite skeptical about the 'goodness' of zakat. Apparently it is not allowed to give Zakat to non-Muslims:

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=39655&ln=eng
Question:
Is it permissible to give zakaah to a kaafir?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

It is not permissible to give zakaah to a kaafir except if it is to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined towards Islam. <...> It is permissible to give zakaah to a kaafir, if we hope that by giving him something he will become Muslim.
That almost sounds like a bribe to me! Apparently it does not matter if non-Muslims would need it more, not even if more suffering would be relieved if it would be given to them. With such strings attached I would never call 'zakaat' charity in its most 'perfect form'. It is an example of putting ideology before helping people. But I understand Sadaqah can be given to non-Muslims, so thats certainly an improvement.
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Malaikah
06-14-2007, 10:54 AM
But it is compulsory for Muslims to pay zakat, non-Muslims do not pay zakat. Why should the non-Muslims receive the benefit of zakat when they don't even pay it themselves?

Zakat is a Muslim thing, it is only a subset of charity. Charity can be given to anyone.
Reply

rav
06-14-2007, 01:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I'm somewhat confused why this charity is charity in its 'most perfect form'. Surely if you give charity to please God you still put the focus on the one that gives the charity, in which case it is not about those that receive and need it.

In a similar vain, shouldn't 'charity in its most perfect form' take into account its effectiveness? The point is to get maximum effect for your charity, not self-congratulations on your intent or the submission to a religious command about x% charity. The point of charity is to help as much people as you can, to relieve as much suffering as possible. The intentions of the giver are hardly relevant IMHO. So what if some people stroke their ego by proclaiming they gave money? I am convinced lots of people can also stroke their ego by keeping it quiet, especially if religion commands them to keep it quiet: "I gave money and didn't tell anyone, ain't I a good guy" :) . If stroking the ego of donors leads to more charity I'm all in favor of it!
Shalom,

A few points Kading. We have had an Atheist in here arguing that religious charity is bad because it is done for religious purposes, yet now you are saying that the intent is not important, the what it does is. So I am a bit confused, maybe you just have different opinions either way I will tell you why it was the 'most perfect form of charity'. The man in the story accomplished these things:

1. Feeding a huge amount of Krakow's Jewish poor - (in your words "relieve as much suffering as possible")
2. Took no credit for it, because it was of the purest intentions.

As I have said, you may think that he may be "self congratulating" himself, but what is the point of such a comment. The man in the story (which is very true) never ever to credit nor did he even reveal his good deeds when he was humiliated with the name "Israel Goy". He did not care what others think, he did not ask the charity organizations to create plaques for him, or spend some money which could be used for charity, on fancy award dinners where he gets honored instead of using that money for charity. He went out on his own, found the problem and created a solution. He then did it in complete secrecy, for the sake of helping others and serving G-d. He made it so the people would not be ashamed and look at how many people he helped. Hundreds every week with food.

How could you ever say it is not the 'most perfect form' of charity. If it is not, then what is?
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Pygoscelis
06-14-2007, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Why should the non-Muslims receive the benefit of zakat when they don't even pay it themselves?
If one can ask this about it, it isn't charity.
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