Israel to ask Washington for limits on Saudi missile deal

[Hashim_507]

A high-level Israeli delegation will meet with officials in Washington this week and demand that restrictions be clamped on the proposed US sale of state-of-the-art weaponry to Saudi Arabia, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

The talks are expected to center on the US decision to sell Joint Direct Attack Munition satellite-guided "smart bombs" to Saudi Arabia. The sale has caused consternation in Jerusalem over concern it could tip the balance of power in the region.

If the sale does go through, Israel has expressed interest in acquiring the F-22 stealth bomber - a plane that can avoid radar detection and is the world's most advanced fighter jet - to maintain its qualitative edge. In April, the Post reported that the IAF had inquired about obtaining the aircraft and had requested that the Defense Ministry present the request on its behalf to the Pentagon.

Israel is to be represented at the talks by Defense Ministry Diplomatic-Military Bureau head Amos Gilad and IDF Planning Directorate head Maj.-Gen. Ido Nehushtan. The US team is to be headed by Beth McCormick, the acting deputy undersecretary of defense for technology security policy and national disclosure policy, and the director of the Defense Department Defense Technology Security Administration.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is scheduled to meet with US President George W. Bush in Washington on June 19. The Saudi arms sale is expected to be a topic of discussion.

The F-22 formally entered operational service in the US Air Force in December 2005. It has not been sold outside the US because of a federal law barring export sale of the aircraft. Congress would need to lift a nine-year ban on its sale to clear the path for an Israeli purchase of the jet.

Japan recently asked the Pentagon for technical data on the fighter jet and is said to be close to making a decision on whether to submit a formal request to purchase the aircraft.

Meanwhile, defense officials on Tuesday told the Post disagreements had emerged between Israel and the US over the installation of Israeli technology in the Joint Strike Fighter, also known as the F-35, which is being developed by Lockheed Martin. IAF commander Maj.-Gen. Elazar Shkedy has announced plans to purchase the aircraft and Lockheed officials have said that delivery could begin the earliest by 2014.

But according to defense officials, the Pentagon and the Defense Ministry were in disagreement over the integration of Israeli-manufactured technology into the aircraft, as has been done with past fighter jets the IAF bought from the US, including the F-15 and the F-16. Last June, Israel threatened to cancel plans to buy the aircraft after over a similar dispute.

"There is no such thing as a crisis," an official close to the talks said. "There are disagreements, and that is why there is a continuous dialogue between the Defense Ministry and the Pentagon so they can be resolved."

Adm. (ret.) Charles Moore Jr., Lockheed Martin's vice president of global sustainment, spoke Tuesday at a conference at the Fischer Bros. Institute for Air and Space Research on fifth-generation stealth aircraft.

In 2003, Israel paid $20 million to join the F-35 project with observer status that granted it access to information accumulated during the development of the jet, which will cost somewhere between $40m.-$50m.

In 2005, Israel's observer status in the F-35 project was revoked after the US accused Israel of upgrading Chinese drones. Then-defense minister Shaul Mofaz reached an agreement with the US later in the year that allowed Israel to return to the project, with restrictions on local defense industries regarding selling weaponry to China. Israel has since stationed two permanent Defense Ministry officials in Washington to head an office that is solely responsible for maintaining the F-35 dialogue with the Pentagon.

The deal was not about to be canceled, government officials said, and Israel planned to purchase the revolutionary aircraft. The officials said the disagreements were being handled on a Pentagon-Defense Ministry level and had not yet reached the diplomatic echelon.

"This issue is a government-to-government issue and Lockheed Martin cannot comment," Lockheed Martin said in a statement.

[Keltoi]

The U.S. was very unhappy with the way the conflict with Hezbollah was handled by the Israeli government. You don't hear much about it in the media, but the reports I've read on the subject leave little doubt that Olmert isn't on the U.S. "cool" list at the moment. I seriously doubt whether the U.S. will change their plans in regard to Saudi Arabia on account of Israeli objections.

[islamirama]

Look at the hypocracy of it. Israel gets the latest and most advanced weapons from US without limits and restrictions and yet this terrorrist state has the audacity to say that US should limit such sales to other nations.

[rav]

Look at the hypocracy of it. Israel gets the latest and most advanced weapons from US without limits and restrictions and yet this terrorrist state has the audacity to say that US should limit such sales to other nations.

To tell you the truth, the hypocrisy is in your own statement. Why not judge all based on the same standards? You label Israel as a "terrorist state", yet that is purely biased and untrue.

Here are a few facts about Israel in comparison to its Arab neighbors. If one is to label Israel as a "terrorist state" then the same label should be put on the likes of Iran, The Taliban, the P.A. etc:

While much attention has been focused on alleged Israeli human rights violations in the volatile West Bank and Gaza, the popular press has chosen to virtually ignore violations of fundamental human rights that take place daily in almost every Arab country. According to annual reports compiled by the State Department, most of the Arab states are ruled by oppressive, dictatorial regimes, which deny their citizens basic freedoms of political expression, speech, press and due process. The Arab Human Development Report published by a group of Arab researchers from the UN Development Program concluded that out of the seven regions of the world, Arab countries had the lowest freedom score. They also had the lowest ranking for "voice and accountability," a measure of various aspects of the political process, civil liberties, political rights and independence of the media.

Source: Arab Human Development Report 2002, NY: UN, 2002.

In 1996, the Palestinian Authority (PA) Mufti, Ikremah Sabri, issued a fatwa (religious decree), banning the sale of Arab and Muslim property to Jews. Anyone who violated the order was to be killed. At least seven land dealers were killed that year. Six years later, the head of the PA's General Intelligence Service in the West Bank, General Tawfik Tirawi, admitted his men were responsible for the murders.

On May 5, 1997, Palestinian Authority Justice Minister Freih Abu Middein announced that the death penalty would be imposed on anyone convicted of ceding "one inch" to Israel. Later that month, two Arab land dealers were killed. PA officials denied any involvement in the killings. A year later, another Palestinian suspected of selling land to Jews was murdered. The PA has also arrested suspected land dealers for violating the Jordanian law (in force in the West Bank), which prohibits the sale of land to foreigners.

Apartheid maybe? Jews cannot buy land? Why are you not crying for the rights of Jews within the territory? Are you a complete believer in the same type of “Islamic supremacy” that Hitler preached when labeling the “Aryan Race” the supreme ethnicity? FYI, Arab Israeli's can buy land in Israel, and serve in Israel's political movements. A Muslim is even minister!


_________


Now please put some thought into what you are typing before you post. Israel is playing a common political strategy. Muslim countries do it as well. Actually, about every country does it.

How about we strive for peace, instead of revealing ugly biases. All countries are at fault for the terrible situation in the Middle East today and to single out one country is unfair.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[islamirama]

To tell you the truth, the hypocrisy is in your own statement. Why not judge all based on the same standards? You label Israel as a "terrorist state", yet that is purely biased and untrue.

Here are a few facts about Israel in comparison to its Arab neighbors. If one is to label Israel as a "terrorist state" then the same label should be put on the likes of Iran, The Taliban, the P.A. etc:

How about we strive for peace, instead of revealing ugly biases.

Taleban was a legtimate gov't elected by it's own peopel to seek protection against the warlords who murderd and raped at free will. The US came along and spread lies agaisnt talebans and toppled them and gave power to the warlords to do as they please again. Please don't think you know more by sitting in the west and listening to your western media. Oh and check the cia website, talebans nor their gov't are recognized as terrorist.

Iran has done nothing that qualifies for it to be a terrorist state. It has not attacked any nation. US qualifies more than Iran since it is the rogue state that attacks and terrorizes other nations that don't bow down to it.

Israel is a terrorist state. It is a nation within a nation. It occupies a land owned by other people, and it oppresses them and massacres them at free will. It has terrorized the lives of palestinians for 50yrs. It is a terrorist state that uses state of the art weapons against teenagers and infants. it has over 10,000+ women and children in jails.

So before you start repying again, i suggest you go read some more. And if there is to be peace in the world. Israel needs to go back to europe where it came from and US needs to stop meddling in the Muslim world, which it won't stop from cuz of "national interests", so as you can see there wont' be peace until a WWIII takes place.

[rav]

Taleban was a legtimate gov't elected by it's own peopel to seek protection against the warlords who murderd and raped at free will. The US came along and spread lies agaisnt talebans and toppled them and gave power to the warlords to do as they please again. Please don't think you know more by sitting in the west and listening to your western media. Oh and check the cia website, talebans nor their gov't are recognized as terrorist.

I would suggest you reread my post again. Did I say the Taliban was a ‘terrorist state’ first of all? No. I said “If one is to label Israel as a "terrorist state" then the same label should be put on the likes of Iran, The Taliban, the P.A. etc:” Therefore, my point was that Israel is no different to the likes of those countries when compared.

Iran has done nothing that qualifies for it to be a terrorist state. It has not attacked any nation. US qualifies more than Iran since it is the rogue state that attacks and terrorizes other nations that don't bow down to it.

Since when was attacking another nation the qualification for a terrorist state? I would also recommend you research on Iran’s own history of jailing anyone who does not obey the exact demands the state places on you. Plus, the Islamic republic of Iran was created from violence as all other countries were. To label one state as a “terrorist” and not the other reveals your own hypocrisy.

Israel is a terrorist state. It is a nation within a nation. It occupies a land owned by other people, and it oppresses them and massacres them at free will. It has terrorized the lives of palestinians for 50yrs. It is a terrorist state that uses state of the art weapons against teenagers and infants. it has over 10,000+ women and children in jails.

Iran jails “bloggers” for saying something that is different from the opinion of the state of Iran. Plus, your statistics are way off, and are from a completely bias source, however, if you wish to believe them, please go ahead. I am never one to go out of my way in correcting the uninformed/brainwashed.

Iran’s arbitrary arrests of thousands of men and women in recent weeks under the banner of “countering immoral behavior” threaten basic rights to privacy, Human Rights Watch said today.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/05/17/iran15942.htm

So before you start repying again, i suggest you go read some more. And if there is to be peace in the world. Israel needs to go back to europe where it came from and US needs to stop meddling in the Muslim world, which it won't stop from cuz of "national interests", so as you can see there wont' be peace until a WWIII takes place.

I’ll give you one better! Why do all Palestinians go back to their native Saudi Arabia? Why don’t we all go back to where we came from! Guess what, that is not how the world works. Islam has done much of its share of conquering nations. Nations are conquered all the time; it is a way the world works. If you’re to suggest that we should isolate Israel, then you’re in serious need of help.

But I can see instead of striving for peace you are basically under the opinion that either your enemy concedes to every illogical demand you make, or World War III occurs. With citizens like yourself, we will be led to millions of death and no solution. Such is the way of the ignoramus.

I would highly recommend getting some fresh air, thanking G-d for creating such a wonderful earth and relieving yourself of the constant negative thoughts that enter your brain and will end up destroying you from the inside.

[islamirama]

I would suggest you reread my post again. Did I say the Taliban was a ‘terrorist state’ first of all? No. I said “If one is to label Israel as a "terrorist state" then the same label should be put on the likes of Iran, The Taliban, the P.A. etc:” Therefore, my point was that Israel is no different to the likes of those countries when compared.

Well you can't label taliban as terrorist state either, they don't qualify by any means. If you mean they terrorized their citizens then that too is a lie and false propaganda western media spread to wage their war.

Israel is a military state that has used terrorism from day one. It used bombings and caused chaos in UK since UK was in change of controling israel. Then UK let them go to do whatever they want in return for some peace, today you will hear muslims and non-Muslims alike refer to it as a terrorising state that grants freedom to jews only and terrorizes and massacres and oppress non-jews. Look at how it treats women and girls that are not jews, but are christans and musilms

Israeli Strip Searching Women and Children

Since when was attacking another nation the qualification for a terrorist state? I would also recommend you research on Iran’s own history of jailing anyone who does not obey the exact demands the state places on you. Plus, the Islamic republic of Iran was created from violence as all other countries were. To label one state as a “terrorist” and not the other reveals your own hypocrisy.

Attacking another country doesn't qualify as terrorism, but attacking another country time after time and with false intelligence or other agendas without provacations does qualify one to be a terrorists state. Most of the world will agree that US is a terrorists state that terrorizes Muslims states and african states that don't bend to its interest.

Iran jails “bloggers” for saying something that is different from the opinion of the state of Iran. Plus, your statistics are way off, and are from a completely bias source, however, if you wish to believe them, please go ahead. I am never one to go out of my way in correcting the uninformed/brainwashed.

China does the same thing. Every country has its rules to govern and punish those that act against them, be it right or wrong. US has its own rules and any other country you can find. What one does in its own country with its own citizens is different. Just like how you treat your siblings is differen than how others would treat them.

I’ll give you one better! Why do all Palestinians go back to their native Saudi Arabia? Why don’t we all go back to where we came from! Guess what, that is not how the world works. Islam has done much of its share of conquering nations. Nations are conquered all the time; it is a way the world works. If you’re to suggest that we should isolate Israel, then you’re in serious need of help.

.

Man i thought you were ignorant but i had no idea you were that ignorant. Go lookat the map, where is palestine and where is saudi located? They both are arabs alright but they are as different as canadians and polish. Are you going to tell polish to go back to canada? Palestinians are natives of that land. They lived there for centuries, and these palestinians are christians, muslims and jews. The zioinst israeli that terrorize palestinians are european jews. Even the Palestinian jews didn't want israel created and didn't want european jews being forced on them. If anyone that needs to go back then americans can go back and give the natives their lands, european jews can go back and give palestinians their land.

Anyways, nations rise and they fall. wars are waged and nations are conquered. Palestine didn't wage any war though, the UN with its western powers waged WWII and jews suffered at their hands and yet palestinians end up having to give up their land to accomdate these european jews? where is the justice in that?

[rav]

Well you can't label taliban as terrorist state either, they don't qualify by any means. If you mean they terrorized their citizens then that too is a lie and false propaganda western media spread to wage their war.

Israel is a military state that has used terrorism from day one. It used bombings and caused chaos in UK since UK was in change of controling israel. Then UK let them go to do whatever they want in return for some peace, today you will hear muslims and non-Muslims alike refer to it as a terrorising state that grants freedom to jews only and terrorizes and massacres and oppress non-jews. Look at how it treats women and girls that are not jews, but are christans and musilms

Oh I am sure you believe it is all "false propaganda", but that is simply not the case. I am afraid there is to much actual evidence and testimony for you to shove this out of the way.

Israel used violence from day one. And? The Arabs fought the UK just as much, and the Arabs used violence from day one in '48 as well.

How about Iran? Did they not use violence when creating their country?

Attacking another country doesn't qualify as terrorism, but attacking another country time after time and with false intelligence or other agendas without provacations does qualify one to be a terrorists state. Most of the world will agree that US is a terrorists state that terrorizes Muslims states and african states that don't bend to its interest.

I think you had no grasp on what I was saying. Please re-read my post.

China does the same thing. Every country has its rules to govern and punish those that act against them, be it right or wrong. US has its own rules and any other country you can find. What one does in its own country with its own citizens is different. Just like how you treat your siblings is differen than how others would treat them.

Who ever said China is not just as bad? But please stay on topic. Iran jails thousands of people based on not "thinking" the correct way. Yet you are only critical of Israel, which acting under UN law of self defense, will imprison people who wish to commit terror against her citizens. Do you honestly think Israel would waste money feeding and jailing the Palestinain prisoners if they were innocent? Why waste space on women if they are innocent? I assume that you also think that Osama Bin laden did was not behind 9/11, are you a conpiracy theorist?

Man i thought you were ignorant but i had no idea you were that ignorant. Go lookat the map, where is palestine and where is saudi located? They both are arabs alright but they are as different as canadians and polish.

Ha! You never fail to make me giggle. The actual point of me writing that must have blown right by you. You see, DNA testing has already proven that the Jews from Europe indeed share major DNA similarities to Palestinian Arabs, much more than European non-Jews. Plus, you also obviously did not know that half of Israel's Jewish population are Arab Jews. 800,000 were basically thrown out because of persecution from Arab countries, while the rest lived in Israel before the Holocaust and the state.

So I will try to outline my point better for you. Saying the Palestinians are from Saudi Arabia is as absurd and as ignorant as saying the Jews never had a connection to the land of Israel, nor were many there before 1948.

I will pretend your comment did not occur, because you really should have read a bit deeper into the post. If I say "saying that is like saying birds can fly" Hint Hint... I am not saying birds can fly.

Anyways, nations rise and they fall. wars are waged and nations are conquered. Palestine didn't wage any war though, the UN with its western powers waged WWII and jews suffered at their hands and yet palestinians end up having to give up their land to accomdate these european jews? where is the justice in that?

First off, I have already corrected the statement that all the Jews were European when the majority in Israel are Arab Jews, plus DNA shows the Europeans ones are actually closer to Palestinian Muslims than European Christians. But don't let science stop you "logic" if you call it that!

In the years following Israel's independence in May 1948, 600,000 to 800,000 Jews from Arab North Africa and the Middle East (approximately as many as the number of Palestinian refugees who left Israel in 1948) arrived in the new state, as a direct result of official and popular anti-Semitic actions against them. Israel received them as returning countrymen, granted them citizenship and helped them begin new and productive lives. There is currently no visible sign of their being "refugees," since they have long since been absorbed into Israeli society. Nevertheless, they still have substantial claims against those countries which forced them to flee, often penniless, and these must be addressed in any comprehensive resolution of the refugee problem.

Throughout Arab lands, 1948 Jewish populations have been decreased to next to nothing. To where did these Jewish refugees vanish? The majority went to Israel, often living in tent camps for up to 12 years, just as the Palestinian refugees. However, they got citizenship in Israel and did not remain permanent refugees.

Jewish refugees from Arab lands have received no compensation for expropriated property, while Arabs who lost property in Israel are eligible to file for compensation from Israel’s Custodian of Absentee Property.

Nearly 80 percent of what was the historic land of Palestine and the Jewish National Home, as defined by the League of Nations, was severed by the British in 1921 and allocated to what became Transjordan. Jewish settlement there was barred. The UN partitioned the remaining 20-odd percent of Palestine into two states. With Jordan’s annexation of the West Bank in 1950, and Egypt's control of Gaza, Arabs controlled more than 80 percent of the territory of the Mandate, while the Jewish State held a bare 17.5 percent.

Completely proportionate to the populations in the mandate

[Hashim_507]

Israel controls U.S, like father like son..

[Sinbad]

Israel and USA are close, but not that close. Israel was detected sending spies to America. And America will never send the F-22 bomber, it is the worlds most advanced bomber, but It will never come to Israel.

All nations keep their best stuff to themselves.

There is also an F-22 fighter jet called "the raptor"

[NobleMuslimUK]

Israel and USA are close, but not that close. Israel was detected sending spies to America. And America will never send the F-22 bomber, it is the worlds most advanced bomber, but It will never come to Israel.

All nations keep their best stuff to themselves.

There is also an F-22 fighter jet called "the raptor"

Does such a bomber really exist? I thought it was a make believe for movies...

[Joe98]

Can we get a link to the story at the top?

I would like to post it on another forum but that forum has rules about providing links to stories.

Not every forum has rules.

[MTAFFI]

Does such a bomber really exist? I thought it was a make believe for movies...

oh yes indeed it does exist.... completely invisible to radar and flies faster than any warcraft on earth, this little peice of weaponry could cause more damage than you could imagine

kinda scary to think about isnt it?:skeleton:

[MTAFFI]

About the original post

I have to say, Israel is getting to be quite a pain in the rear end for the US, I mean really what do they do for us? We give them an incredible amount of money, weapons and so on, but what do we recieve in return? It would be one thing if they could somehow negotiate a peace with their neighbors, but obviously that isnt happening. Why do we have to be responsible for them, cant their economy support itself? Also if we sell one of our stealth fighters to them, I swear I will lose it

[Keltoi]

oh yes indeed it does exist.... completely invisible to radar and flies faster than any warcraft on earth, this little peice of weaponry could cause more damage than you could imagine

kinda scary to think about isnt it?:skeleton:

They are extremely expensive, so they probably won't see action unless.....well, I'm sure those Iranian nuclear facilities are looking like a good target right now.

[MTAFFI]

They are extremely expensive, so they probably won't see action unless.....well, I'm sure those Iranian nuclear facilities are looking like a good target right now.

I think they are a little over 2 billion a piece and the US has put somethign like 50 billion in them already

Iran would very much be a good use for them, I am pretty sure I read that they were used over Iraq at the beginning of the war and afghan as well, but I think they were only brought out in those cases as a show of dominance. Could you imagine Ahmadinjehad's face if 20 of these flew right over his radar and utterly destroyed nantz and all his other nuclear sites? lol.... I found that this is what they carry STANDARD

Armament
40,000 lb (18,000 kg) of Bomb Rack Assembly mounted 500 lb class bombs (Mk82) (total carriage quantity: 80)
27,000 lb (12,000 kg) of BRA mounted 750 lb CBU class bombs (total carriage quantity: 36)
16 Rotary Launcher Assembly (RLA) mounted 2000 lb class weapons (Mk84, JDAM-84, JDAM-102)
16 RLA mounted B61 or B83 nuclear weapons

[rav]

About the original post

I have to say, Israel is getting to be quite a pain in the rear end for the US, I mean really what do they do for us? We give them an incredible amount of money, weapons and so on, but what do we recieve in return? It would be one thing if they could somehow negotiate a peace with their neighbors, but obviously that isnt happening. Why do we have to be responsible for them, cant their economy support itself? Also if we sell one of our stealth fighters to them, I swear I will lose it

Shalom,

What kind of pain is it? Do you understand how many nations the US supports with money? To isolate Israel is unfair and naive. The US also gives an incredible amount of money to the Palestinians as well. What it does is keep their political influence in the situation. When the US's political influence is gone from the region, than the nations will not act in regard to the US's best interest and in the long run it could be deadly for the US.

For years, Israel has been America's secret weapon in defending the interests and lives of Americans for the United States. The problem is that, while the U.S. wants and needs Israel's assistance in securing (Huminit) on-ground Intelligence about what Arab Terrorists and Arab Rogue Nations nations are planning against America, it does not want to admit that Israel is its irreplaceable source for deep Intel. Israel reluctantly accepts this policy because America is Israel's ally and friend but, resents this effort to appease Arab nations.

General George Keegan (now deceased), head of America's Air Force Intelligence unabashedly and repeatedly stated publically during his life that: "Israel is worth 5 CIAs" with respect to the Intelligence passed to their American counterparts. This wasn't intended as an insult to the CIA but, rather that Israel needed and was capable of deep penetration into Rogue Arab nations and Terror cells whom the CIA will never reach.

Some may recall the extraordinary assistance Israel rendered to America's military as they were mobilizing their forces to invade Saddam's Iraq in 1990. Israel briefed America's Military Intelligence on what they had learned through Israeli agents planted deep in Iraq's regime.

Additionally, Israel provided an air umbrella of their aircraft giving cover for the vulnerable incoming air cargo as part of the Desert Shield build-up to Desert Storm. Believe me, it wasn't the Saudi Air Force that was called upon to protect U.S. transport aircraft carrying American soldiers for the 6 months needed by our reluctant foot-dragging Colin Powell (then head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) to prepare for the war with Saddam.`

During the first Gulf War, Desert Storm which began January 16, 1991, Israel had rescue units planted in the Iraqi deserts to pick up downed American or Israeli pilots (who were prepared to fight) should they be hit by Saddam's SAM missiles. As it turned out, Israeli pilots were forcibly kept on the ground because Bush and Baker refused to give Israel the (IFF) code frequencies that identified Friend from Foe - lest it offend Syria and Egypt.

For all this invaluable assistance, Bush, Sr., and James Baker fired Gen. Dugan who was the top military authority overseeing the U.S. build-up because he publically acknowledged Israel's military assistance.

Bush, Baker and Colin Powell had formed a fake coalition of Arab nations who did virtually nothing to assist the American and British forces. All they did was to loan their names but, they refused any fighting role against a fellow Arab nation. For showing up, unarmed and staying far away from battle, Syria and Egypt were gifted with hundreds of millions of American tax-payers' dollars worth of tanks, planes, helicopters, munitions left over after the war.

I recall that a spokesman for the military at the University of Chicago explaining that they pushed supposedly worn out attack helicopters off the deck of homebound aircraft carriers because they were not worth even being used for spare parts. I expect those helicopters really ended up being gifted to Egypt and Syria, without advising Congress or the GAO. Tricking Congress and the American people seems to be the policy of that Bush/Baker Administration.

As 39 SCUDs hit Israel, she, for her very real contributrition, got a phoney promise that the U.S. Administration would task their pilots to hit the SCUD missile launchers. The American Administration lied and never assigned their pilots that mission - according to the GAO (Governement Accounting Office) report long after the war. That ruse was the product of Bush, Baker and Powell displaying their preferred alliance with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria and other rogue anti-American Arab nations.

The Chief of Israel's Air Force said over and over that there were no American sorties against the SCUD launchers but, no one believed him. Had the Israelis been allowed to send their own pilots against the launchers, perhaps the SCUD missile wouldn't have hit the American barracks in Saudia Arabia, killing 28 Marines who didn't have to die.

One could go back further in Israel's assistance to her ally, America, when she captured Soviet missile systems, radar systems and planes - all of which were sent back to America for inspection. Billions of dollars would have been spent on reverse engineering to learn how to defend against them had U.S. industry NOT had the captured Soviet equipment which Israel sent to America. Israel's assistance shortened the number of man-hours and money to develop counter-measures against Soviet technology, missiles, radar frequencies and more. Israel, despite her minuscule size, gave back to her ally, America, more than any other nation and, regrettably, receieved the back of a diplomatic hand in order to appease Saudi Arabia.

Israel developed aircraft disposable fuel containers, allowing fighter aircraft to extend their flying and fighting range. As I recall, the 'Thank You' they received from then Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger, was the transfer of this technology to Saudi Arabia and Egypt - despite America's promise to Israel not to. Weinberger, like Baker, was well known for his visceral hatred for the Jewish State - not to mention his (their) connections to Arab oil nations which is still on-going.

The homily: "No good deed goes unpunished" comes to mind when it comes to appreciating Israel's assistance to its ally, America. The American people have always supported Israel and Israel has always been truly grateful for their support. Regrettably, Israel usually believed that the various Administrations also supported Israel - when, in fact, the Arabist U.S. State Department and some high ranking politicians, who had unholy cash ties to Arab nations, often ran a different and pro-Arab foreign policy.

[Keltoi]

Shalom,

What kind of pain is it? Do you understand how many nations the US supports with money? To isolate Israel is unfair and naive. The US also gives an incredible amount of money to the Palestinians as well. What it does is keep their political influence in the situation. When the US's political influence is gone from the region, than the nations will not act in regard to the US's best interest and in the long run it could be deadly for the US.

For years, Israel has been America's secret weapon in defending the interests and lives of Americans for the United States. The problem is that, while the U.S. wants and needs Israel's assistance in securing (Huminit) on-ground Intelligence about what Arab Terrorists and Arab Rogue Nations nations are planning against America, it does not want to admit that Israel is its irreplaceable source for deep Intel. Israel reluctantly accepts this policy because America is Israel's ally and friend but, resents this effort to appease Arab nations.

General George Keegan (now deceased), head of America's Air Force Intelligence unabashedly and repeatedly stated publically during his life that: "Israel is worth 5 CIAs" with respect to the Intelligence passed to their American counterparts. This wasn't intended as an insult to the CIA but, rather that Israel needed and was capable of deep penetration into Rogue Arab nations and Terror cells whom the CIA will never reach.

Some may recall the extraordinary assistance Israel rendered to America's military as they were mobilizing their forces to invade Saddam's Iraq in 1990. Israel briefed America's Military Intelligence on what they had learned through Israeli agents planted deep in Iraq's regime.

Additionally, Israel provided an air umbrella of their aircraft giving cover for the vulnerable incoming air cargo as part of the Desert Shield build-up to Desert Storm. Believe me, it wasn't the Saudi Air Force that was called upon to protect U.S. transport aircraft carrying American soldiers for the 6 months needed by our reluctant foot-dragging Colin Powell (then head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) to prepare for the war with Saddam.`

During the first Gulf War, Desert Storm which began January 16, 1991, Israel had rescue units planted in the Iraqi deserts to pick up downed American or Israeli pilots (who were prepared to fight) should they be hit by Saddam's SAM missiles. As it turned out, Israeli pilots were forcibly kept on the ground because Bush and Baker refused to give Israel the (IFF) code frequencies that identified Friend from Foe - lest it offend Syria and Egypt.

For all this invaluable assistance, Bush, Sr., and James Baker fired Gen. Dugan who was the top military authority overseeing the U.S. build-up because he publically acknowledged Israel's military assistance.

Bush, Baker and Colin Powell had formed a fake coalition of Arab nations who did virtually nothing to assist the American and British forces. All they did was to loan their names but, they refused any fighting role against a fellow Arab nation. For showing up, unarmed and staying far away from battle, Syria and Egypt were gifted with hundreds of millions of American tax-payers' dollars worth of tanks, planes, helicopters, munitions left over after the war.

I recall that a spokesman for the military at the University of Chicago explaining that they pushed supposedly worn out attack helicopters off the deck of homebound aircraft carriers because they were not worth even being used for spare parts. I expect those helicopters really ended up being gifted to Egypt and Syria, without advising Congress or the GAO. Tricking Congress and the American people seems to be the policy of that Bush/Baker Administration.

As 39 SCUDs hit Israel, she, for her very real contributrition, got a phoney promise that the U.S. Administration would task their pilots to hit the SCUD missile launchers. The American Administration lied and never assigned their pilots that mission - according to the GAO (Governement Accounting Office) report long after the war. That ruse was the product of Bush, Baker and Powell displaying their preferred alliance with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria and other rogue anti-American Arab nations.

The Chief of Israel's Air Force said over and over that there were no American sorties against the SCUD launchers but, no one believed him. Had the Israelis been allowed to send their own pilots against the launchers, perhaps the SCUD missile wouldn't have hit the American barracks in Saudia Arabia, killing 28 Marines who didn't have to die.

One could go back further in Israel's assistance to her ally, America, when she captured Soviet missile systems, radar systems and planes - all of which were sent back to America for inspection. Billions of dollars would have been spent on reverse engineering to learn how to defend against them had U.S. industry NOT had the captured Soviet equipment which Israel sent to America. Israel's assistance shortened the number of man-hours and money to develop counter-measures against Soviet technology, missiles, radar frequencies and more. Israel, despite her minuscule size, gave back to her ally, America, more than any other nation and, regrettably, receieved the back of a diplomatic hand in order to appease Saudi Arabia.

Israel developed aircraft disposable fuel containers, allowing fighter aircraft to extend their flying and fighting range. As I recall, the 'Thank You' they received from then Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger, was the transfer of this technology to Saudi Arabia and Egypt - despite America's promise to Israel not to. Weinberger, like Baker, was well known for his visceral hatred for the Jewish State - not to mention his (their) connections to Arab oil nations which is still on-going.

The homily: "No good deed goes unpunished" comes to mind when it comes to appreciating Israel's assistance to its ally, America. The American people have always supported Israel and Israel has always been truly grateful for their support. Regrettably, Israel usually believed that the various Administrations also supported Israel - when, in fact, the Arabist U.S. State Department and some high ranking politicians, who had unholy cash ties to Arab nations, often ran a different and pro-Arab foreign policy.

Well, I don't know the feelings about Israel in terms of the current American administration, but I have no illusions as to how important Israel is to anti-terror intelligence. You are also correct that the U.S. has been attempting to win friends in the Arab world with assistance and military aid. A lost cause in my opinion. Israel and the U.S. are like two long-time friends who occasionally push the other's buttons for old times sake. However, Israel and the U.S. have too much at stake in the other's existence to go too far with these little spats.

[MTAFFI]

Shalom,

What kind of pain is it? Do you understand how many nations the US supports with money? To isolate Israel is unfair and naive. The US also gives an incredible amount of money to the Palestinians as well. What it does is keep their political influence in the situation. When the US's political influence is gone from the region, than the nations will not act in regard to the US's best interest and in the long run it could be deadly for the US.

...

Rav

You make a good point

Just so you know I would never advocate the isolation of Israel, I do realize how beneficial they are to us, but as far as the money goes, I dont know, I mean are we paying Israel to be our friend? As far as the comment about the stealth fighter, my main concern with that is the secrets that would be much closer to the enemy, if Israel needs these planes I am sure the US would be more than happy to lend a helping hand

Again dont get me wrong, I support Israel and appreciate the help they have provided in the past, 240 million a year and the average income is 26,000, it just seems a bit much

[islamirama]

118 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 934 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Source)


1,021 Israelis and at least 4,098 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Source)


7,633 Israelis and 31,403 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Source)


The U.S. gives more than $7,023,288 per day to the Israeli government and military and gives no money to the Palestinians. (View Source)


Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none. (View Source)


1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (View Source)


0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000. (View Source)


The Israeli unemployment rate is 9%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 40%. (View Source)


Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land. (View Source)

----------------------------------

United States Aid to Israel: Funding the Occupation

Israel is a funded state. Despite its own relatively healthy economy, it continues to receive aid from the US, in disproportion to both the country’s population and needs.

The financial aid alone that Israel receives from the US allows it to purchase tanks, helicopter gunships, F-16 war planes, machine guns and bullets – all of which it uses to commit human rights violations against the Palestinian people on a daily basis. When it is not possible for the Israeli government to use the funds directly on military expenditure, their use elsewhere frees up other Israeli government funds to pay for military salaries, services and facilities.

Military power is required for Israel to maintain its occupation of the Palestinian territories, implemented through a system of expanding settlements, checkpoints and closure. It is therefore no exaggeration to say that the US is funding and supplying the Israeli government’s occupation of the Palestinian territories, as without financial subsidies from the US, the Israeli government would have found it considerably more difficult to sustain its military occupation of the Palestinian territories for the past thirty-four years.

Snapshot of the state of Israel

• Israel’s population is 6 million people, including:
  
  › 182,000 illegal settlers in the West Bank
  › 20,000 illegal settlers in the occupied Golan Heights
  › 7,000 illegal settlers in the Gaza Strip
  › 176,000 illegal settlers in East Jerusalem1
  
  
• Israel ranks as the 16th wealthiest country in the world, and Israelis enjoy a per capita income higher than Ireland, Spain, or oil-rich Saudi Arabia.2
  
  
• Israel’s GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and the Occupied Palestinian Territories.3
  
  
• Since 28 September 2000, Israeli police, soldiers and settlers have killed more than 2,050 Palestinians -- the vast majority of them civilians -- in contravention of international law.

A BREAKDOWN OF UNITED STATES AID TO ISRAEL

Financial Aid

The Israeli government is the largest recipient of US financial aid in the world, receiving over one-third of total US aid to foreign countries4, even though Israel’s population comprises just .001% of the world’s population and has one the world’s higher per capita incomes.

• Since 1949 the US has given Israel a total of $84,854,827,200. The interest costs born by US taxpayers on behalf of Israel are $49,937,000,000 – making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $134,791,507,200 (more than $134 billion).5
• The total cost of this financial aid to US tax payers per Israeli is $23,240.
• Since 1992, the US has offered Israel an additional $2 billion in loan guarantees every year.6
• Nearly all past loans to Israel have been forgiven – leading Israel to claim that they have never defaulted on repayment of a US loan – with most loans made on the understanding that they would be forgiven before Israel was required to repay them.
• In 1997 alone, the total of US grants and loan guarantees to Israel was $5.5 billion, i.e., $15,068,493 per day.

Military Aid

The United States provides direct and indirect military aid to Israel – totalling more than it gives to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean put together, whose combined total population is 1,054,000,000.

According to a US Department of Defence Joint Report to Congress in March 2001, “It is in the United States’ national interest to promote the existence of a stable, democratic and militarily strong Israel, at peace with its neighbours […]”.7 According to a US State Department statement in November 2002, the US government is committed to “maintaining and enhancing Israel’s security and qualitative edge over any combination of adversaries” and “the important advantages the US-Israeli strategic relationship has and will continue to provide us.”8

• Foreign Military Financing (FMF) is grants to foreign governments financing the purchase of American-made weapons, services and training. Israel receives 50% of the FMF budget request. The large sums paid by the US to Egypt and Jordan are in recognition of the two countries signing peace accords with Israel in 1979 and 1994 respectively.

FMF Budget Request FY 2001: Total budget request: $3.54 billion Budget request for Israel: $1.98 billion Budget request for Egypt: $1.3 billion Budget request for Jordan $75 million

• The Economic Support Fund (ESF) promotes economic and political stability in areas strategically important to the US. It is not intended for military usage, but allows the recipient government to free up other money, therefore providing indirect military aid. Israel receives the largest single grant of the Near East budget, which alone is 79% of the total ESF request.

ESF Budget Request, FY 2001:
Total budget request:
$2.313 billion

Budget request for Near East:
$1.828 billion, including:

Israel
$840 million

Egypt
$150 million

WB/GS
$100 million
Furthermore:

• 18 of the 92 pending arms sales transfers in the year 2000 were to Israel;
• Israel has the world’s largest fleet of F-16s outside the US, currently possessing 200 jets -- with a further 102 on order with American manufacturer Lockheed Martin;
• In June 2001 Israel again requested $800 million in supplementary US aid. This was originally pledged to cover the cost of the Israeli withdrawal from south Lebanon – in other words, Israel was being paid for complying with international law. As Israel re-requests this package, administration officials have considered linking it to the implementation of the Mitchell Report, again effectively paying Israel to comply with international standards;9

Charitable Aid

Private donations to American charities initially constituted one quarter of Israel’s budget. Today, it is estimated that these tax-deductible donations exceed $1.5 billion per year. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax deductible contributions to a foreign government does not exist for any other country.

US aid to Israel: A violation of US law

US law prohibits the President from providing military aid to any country that “engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognised human rights”.10 Under the 1967 US Arms Export Control Act, it is illegal to use US weapons to carry out extra-judicial killings. This act stipulates that weapons be sold to “friendly countries solely for internal security and legitimate defence.”

• Since September 2000, the Israeli army has used attack helicopters, tanks and F-16 missiles to target Palestinian civilians, homes, forces, buildings and in demonstrations. In its Human Rights Report, the US State Department declared that Israeli army actions were an “excessive use of force”, noting that the Israeli forces used live ammunition, even when they were not in imminent danger, and that the Israeli military “shelled PA institutions and Palestinian civilian areas in response to individual Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians or settlers”.
• The Israeli government’s policies in the occupied Palestinian territories have been condemned by human rights organisations worldwide. The Israeli army’s “excessive use of force” towards Palestinian civilians and its policy of “state assassinations” violate international human rights law. In supplying military aid to such a state, the US is violating its own laws.

-------------

Although it is not often reported by the press, a large proportion of American diplomatic and military experts have long held that U.S. support of Israel is often contrary to and, in fact, extremely damaging to U.S. interests.


Support for Israel interferes with: American relations with the oil-producing nations, with whom we previously had friendly ties; with Muslim consumers, who represent 1.2 billion people world-wide; and removes much-needed money from domestic American requirements — tax revenues that could be addressed to domestic needs are instead sent abroad to prop up a system of discrimination that is antithetical to American principles of equality and democracy.


In addition, the ‘special relationship’ between the U.S. and Israel is increasingly imperiling American lives.


Why, then, is this done? Close examination of the history and current situation reveals that U.S. policies in the Middle East are rarely driven by U.S. interests. Rather, they are largely driven by two very different factors:

1. Special-interest lobbying of the sort that is common to Washington. The only difference from typical lobby groups is that this lobbying is on behalf of a foreign government. Fortune Magazine rates one of the many lobby organizations working on behalf of Israel, AIPAC, as the second most powerful lobby in Washington. In total, many experts rate the pro-Israel interest group as the most powerful lobby in Washington.
2. The efforts of a growing number of individuals with close ties to Israel (known as neoconservatives) who have attained key positions at high levels of the U.S. administration, State Department, and Pentagon.

Interestingly, the oil and weapons industries, although very influential over parts of American Middle East policy, are not responsible for our relationship with Israel. In fact, quite often both of these industries find our support for Israel undermines their corporate interests in the region.

[rav]

Shalom,

Taking statistics from an anti-Israel website about Israel? How about thinking for yourself, or is that way to hard? What your doing is like taking information about the Holocaust from a Neo-Nazi website. Or taking information on the Arab-Israeli conflict from racists who hate Muslims. What you are doing is presenting information which is faulty.

It is obvious that more Palestinians have been killed in the violence and I will outline why:

1. The number would be even if Israel was not able to stop or deter 90% of Palestinian terrorist attacks aimed at killing Jewish civilians.
2. Palestinian militants will commonly use human shield tactics when fighting, therefore, when killed a Palestinian child will generally die as well, which helps propaganda.

If Israel really had the intention of killing all these innocent civilians, I am under the opinion that they could kill many more, a lot faster if that was their goal.

It is important to remember that Israel offered to withdraw from 97 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of Gaza, and it is the rejection of that proposal, coupled with incessant Palestinian terrorism, that has forced Israeli troops to carry out operations in the territories. Though these actions have caused hardship for the Palestinian population, the IDF has continued to ensure that humanitarian assistance is provided to Palestinians in need. For example, during just one 48-hour period (January 5-6, 2003), the IDF:

1. Coordinated the movement of Palestinians seeking medical care, assisting 40 to go to hospitals, including four patients from Gaza who were transferred to Israel for medical treatment.
2. Coordinated the movement of 284 Palestinians in the West Bank who were transferred by ambulance.
3. Coordinated the passage of building materials for the construction of a hospital in Kalkilya.
4. Coordinated the passage of humanitarian goods to Bethlehem.
5. Coordinated entry of ration cards sent by an international aid organization to the residents of Azoun.
6. Enabled the distribution of ration cards by the Red Cross in Salfit.
7. Coordinated the passage of agricultural produce and food between Muassi and Khan Yunis.
8. Coordinated the passage of an UNRWA team in Gaza to aid in the disposal of rubbish.
9. Arranged entry into Kalkilya for an Israeli Arab family from East Jerusalem to attend their son’s wedding.
10. Even at the height of military action, such as the operation to clean out the terrorist nest in the Jenin refugee camp, Israeli forces have gone out of their way to assist Palestinian non-combatants. In the case of the Jenin operation, for example, the hospital there was kept running with a generator delivered under fire by an Israeli officer.

The best way to improve the situation for the Palestinians in the territories is for the Palestinian Authority to take the steps laid out by the Bush Administration — end the violence, reform its institutions, and elect new leaders — so that peace talks may resume and a settlement can be negotiated.

[islamirama]

Shalom,

Taking statistics from an anti-Israel website about Israel?

taking statistics from the factual sites. Everything stated there is a FACT that can be verified. those are hardcore numbers, not someone's opinion that you are comparing them to nazis. Are you going to deny facts now by your lame excuses?

all i hear from you are your defenses backed by your statements. I dont' see any hard facts that can be verified. I'm not interested in your opinions that you call facts to defend against the truth.

[rav]

taking statistics from the factual sites. Everything stated there is a FACT that can be verified. those are hardcore numbers, not someone's opinion that you are comparing them to nazis. Are you going to deny facts now by your lame excuses?

Shalom (Peace),

But what I am telling you is that they are not factual. The perfect example is that going though the sites page on the UN resolutions, I have found many errors, intentional or not, I do not know. Neo-Nazi websites which deny the Holocaust, and sites like "answering-islam" source all of their claims as well. Sourcing a claim does not mean it is factually correct. I can source a claim that gravity does not exist and it is a myth. I can also source a claim that the world is flat.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum//

That does not mean it is true by any means.

Of course the State of Israel commits violent acts. I have never said they do not. However, to lay the blame solely on them is irresponsible. Many factors are involved, and the Palestinians are guilty as well for not producing a solution.

If each sides makes outrageous claims and they will not conceed a bit, or meet the other side half way, than no peace will occur. That means more Palestinians and Israeli children will die. Is that what you want? I pray not.

[islamirama]

Israeli troops shoot Hebron family (how many more?)

Israeli soldiers have killed an unarmed 67-year-old Palestinian and wounded four members of his family in a raid in the West Bank town of Hebron.

Yehia al-Jabari was shot dead by soldiers who raided his home on Wednesday to detain one of his sons.

An Israeli army spokesman said the army was searching a house in Hebron for wanted suspects.

bodyVariable350="Htmlphcontrol1_lblError";


He said that its troops were attacked by residents who threw a gas canister at them and one Palestinian man tried to grab the weapon of a soldier "who was forced to open fire".

Residents of Hebron disputed the army's version of events.



One witness said: "They [Israeli soldiers] came like wild dogs and when they did, they opened the door and started shooting. The soldier killed an old man, the head of the household.

"His wife came out screaming so the soldier shot her and then he shot his brother and then the children. Go and look at the house. It's a pool of blood."

One relative of the victim said the shooting was indiscriminate.

"He [an Israeli soldier] shot the boy inside and then the two girls and my wife in the other room. In every room he opened fire," he said.

Covered in blood

Witnesses at the scene accused the Israeli soldiers of firing at young children. Al-Jabari's daughter was still covered in blood when she described what happened.



She said: "My mother told the soldier to stay away from him, from my father. And then he shot him and my mother yelled 'you *******' and then he shot my mother and then shot and wounded my brother Rajeh.

"They shot my brothers and the children."

Earlier on Wednesday, Israeli aircraft struck a group of armed fighters in the northern Gaza Strip, killing one man and wounding another, Palestinian officials said.

The army said it had identified a group of fighters planting explosives in northern Gaza and targeted them from the air.

The Hamas movement said in a radio broadcast that the dead man belonged to the group.

It was the first Israeli air raid since Friday.

Summit postponed

Against this backdrop of continued violence, a meeting between Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, and Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, planned for Thursday has been postponed indefinitely.

"The summit has been postponed because difficulties emerged in the preparations. More discussions are needed to prepare for the summit," Nabil Amr, an aide to Abbas, said on Wednesday.

The summit would have been the first between the two leaders since April 15 despite plans to hold regular meetings.

Abbas earlier this week accused Israel of trying to limit the agenda for the talks, saying he had intended to highlight Palestinian concerns over the separation barrier, settlement building, prisoners and withheld tax receipts.

But Ziad Abu Amr, the Palestinian foreign minister, said Abbas and Olmert would be invited to a meeting in Egypt of the four sponsors of the stalled peace process on June 25.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...D419BEF2BE.htm

[rav]

Alright, so we have a disputation on what occured. One side says, "He said that its troops were attacked by residents who threw a gas canister at them and one Palestinian man tried to grab the weapon of a soldier "who was forced to open fire"." While the other says, "My mother told the soldier to stay away from him, from my father. And then he shot him and my mother yelled 'you *******' and then he shot my mother and then shot and wounded my brother Rajeh.". If the soldier is right than he had a right to shoot, if the Palestinian is right, than the soldier is a criminal.

How am I to know which one to believe? Either, way did you not read the part of my post in which I wrote, "Of course the State of Israel commits violent acts. I have never said they do not.".

Now instead of continuing to post articles describing killings which I do not condone at all, (I condemn them), can you possibly engage in actual conversation on the topic, or are you only good for copying and pasting? I could do the same as well, by posting stories of for example and Israeli pre-school blowing up from a suicide bomber, but since my goal is for peace, why would I want to enrage either side.

Both sides obviously have extremists, I never disputed you on that, however, where I dispute you, is when you claim that only one side has extremists and the other does not. That is a pathetic claim, which reveals nothing but the naive nature of the person making such a claim.

[MTAFFI]

Alright, so we have a disputation on what occured. One side says, "He said that its troops were attacked by residents who threw a gas canister at them and one Palestinian man tried to grab the weapon of a soldier "who was forced to open fire"." While the other says, "My mother told the soldier to stay away from him, from my father. And then he shot him and my mother yelled 'you *******' and then he shot my mother and then shot and wounded my brother Rajeh.". If the soldier is right than he had a right to shoot, if the Palestinian is right, than the soldier is a criminal.

How am I to know which one to believe? Either, way did you not read the part of my post in which I wrote, "Of course the State of Israel commits violent acts. I have never said they do not.".

Now instead of continuing to post articles describing killings which I do not condone at all, (I condemn them), can you possibly engage in actual conversation on the topic, or are you only good for copying and pasting? I could do the same as well, by posting stories of for example and Israeli pre-school blowing up from a suicide bomber, but since my goal is for peace, why would I want to enrage either side.

Both sides obviously have extremists, I never disputed you on that, however, where I dispute you, is when you claim that only one side has extremists and the other does not. That is a pathetic claim, which reveals nothing but the naive nature of the person making such a claim.

It couldnt be more perfectly put :D

[islamirama]

Alright, so we have a disputation on what occured. One side says, "He said that its troops were attacked by residents who threw a gas canister at them and one Palestinian man tried to grab the weapon of a soldier "who was forced to open fire"." While the other says, "My mother told the soldier to stay away from him, from my father. And then he shot him and my mother yelled 'you *******' and then he shot my mother and then shot and wounded my brother Rajeh.". If the soldier is right than he had a right to shoot, if the Palestinian is right, than the soldier is a criminal.

How am I to know which one to believe? Either, way did you not read the part of my post in which I wrote, "Of course the State of Israel commits violent acts. I have never said they do not.".

Now instead of continuing to post articles describing killings which I do not condone at all, (I condemn them), can you possibly engage in actual conversation on the topic, or are you only good for copying and pasting? I could do the same as well, by posting stories of for example and Israeli pre-school blowing up from a suicide bomber, but since my goal is for peace, why would I want to enrage either side.

Both sides obviously have extremists, I never disputed you on that, however, where I dispute you, is when you claim that only one side has extremists and the other does not. That is a pathetic claim, which reveals nothing but the naive nature of the person making such a claim.

The army is always making up bogus stories to defend its atrocities. I don't see any extremists in this story at all. Its a plain old massacre like many before it. Who cares what the military side is saying, eyewitness and kids make the best people to ask. Yea i'm sure a 67yr old man is an extemist as is his helpless family that is murdered in cold blood. That's how all "extremists" are being killed by these war criminals.


One witness said: "They [Israeli soldiers] came like wild dogs and when they did, they opened the door and started shooting. The soldier killed an old man, the head of the household.

"His wife came out screaming so the soldier shot her and then he shot his brother and then the children. Go and look at the house. It's a pool of blood."

One relative of the victim said the shooting was indiscriminate.

"He [an Israeli soldier] shot the boy inside and then the two girls and my wife in the other room. In every room he opened fire," he said. (why feel the need to open fire in every room and shoot kids?)


Witnesses at the scene accused the Israeli soldiers of firing at young children. (any extremists here?)

Al-Jabari's daughter was still covered in blood when she described what happened.



She said: "My mother told the soldier to stay away from him, from my father. And then he shot him and my mother yelled 'you *******' and then he shot my mother and then shot and wounded my brother Rajeh. (no regard of human life at all here)

"They shot my brothers and the children." (a simple family massacre)

Both Sides may have extremits, but this was clearly no extremists case. This was one sided brutality, one that is all too often and freely done.

[rav]

The army is always making up bogus stories to defend its atrocities. I don't see any extremists in this story at all. Its a plain old massacre like many before it. Who cares what the military side is saying, eyewitness and kids make the best people to ask. Yea i'm sure a 67yr old man is an extemist as is his helpless family that is murdered in cold blood. That's how all "extremists" are being killed by these war criminals.

I don't think you understood my post. What I am saying, is that extremists are on both sides. The soldier (if guilty) who massacred, and the Palestinian suicide bomber who blew up a pre-school, while mothers were picking up their children. Both are extremists.

The disputation I had with your article was that I understand that one side has claimed one thing, but it is really not enough. For example; if a terrorists family knows that there family member is a terrorist, do you think they will admit that if he is killed? Of course not. Since the odds are they will not like Israel, they will probably try to frame such an incident to be a "massacre" but we just do not know.

I'm not saying it did not happen, or it did the way the Palestinians told it. What I am saying is that there is no way to prove who is telling the truth. The problem with such a conflict as the Palestinian-Israeli one is that the Palestinian soldiers have no uniforms when they fight, a majority of the time. Therefore, ever Palestinian "soldier" Israel kills can be counted towards a civilian death.

I'm glad you used the words "accused" in your post, because that is what it is, an accusation. One that may have occured, or not. We may never know. If the soldier is guilty, then he is a murderer who deserves his punishment, and will recieve it when G-d judges it.

In the hope of a peaceful solution.
Shalom Eliechem

[Sinbad]

I think they are a little over 2 billion a piece and the US has put somethign like 50 billion in them already

No those are old useless bombers, Israel have those they are nothing. only 2 bilion dollars.

It has wings and all, this new one dosent have wings, its more like an "ufo":D

Iran would very much be a good use for them, I am pretty sure I read that they were used over Iraq at the beginning of the war and afghan as well, but I think they were only brought out in those cases as a show of dominance.

The F-22 have never been used, I think its more for to fight the Chinese/Russians et c. The earlier models have been used, it was also the first one to bomb iraq in the war, it targeted hes home, they hoped killing him and end the war before it began.

Could you imagine Ahmadinjehad's face if 20 of these flew right over his radar and utterly destroyed nantz and all his other nuclear sites? lol.... I found that this is what they carry STANDARD

The American mind never cease to amaze me. I cant imagine bombing nuclear facilities (nuke) Iran would cause.