~ Israel Provoked Six-Day War ~

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

Israel Provoked Six-Day War, Says Former Dutch UN Observer

Posted : Tue, 05 Jun 2007
09:00:00GMT
Author : DPA
EarthTimes

Amsterdam - A former Dutch UN observer has said Israel was not under siege by Arab countries preceding the Six-Day War, the 40th anniversary of which falls Tuesday, and that the Jewish state provoked most border incidents as part of its strategy to annex more land.

Speaking on a Dutch current affairs programme late Monday, Jan Muhren, who was stationed interchangeably at the Golan Heights and the West Bank in 1966-67, says neither Jordan nor Syria had any intention to start a war with Israel...

Source:
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/69413.html

[Walter]

Hi Zman:

After 40 years, much of the formerly classified planning and execution documents of the 6-day war are now available. Therefore a more balanced analysis can be made.

I am concerned that one of the legacies of this war was the general belief in Nasser’s assertion that the US and British troops participated. I have not been able to source any evidence that Nasser’s assertion was true. However, it is apparently taught as fact in textbooks in Middle Eastern states. I believe that this has resulted in the general anti-western attitude of the Arabs.

Regards,
Grenville

[rav]

Shalom (Peace),

I believe it is pretty clear who provoked the Six Day War zman. Of course you can believe what you wish, but the facts will say otherwise. I think your wise enough not to argue strongly in favor of such a conspiracy theory which has little factual basis.

The Six-Day War — the third major Arab-Israeli conflict — was in a sense a continuation of the first two wars. Broadly speaking, the causes of the fighting in 1967 overlapped with the causes of fighting in 1948 (Arab rejection of Israel) and 1956 (continued rejectionism and an Egyptian blockade of shipping to Israel).

Specifically, the war stemmed from Egypt's decision to expel United Nations troops from the Sinai peninsula and blockade Israel's port of Eilat, under international law a casus belli, or act of war, in addition to belligerent Arab threats to destroy Israel. Much of the above could be traced to Soviet meddling and misinformation.

In the weeks leading up to the Six Day War, Arab leaders repeatedly threatened Israel with annihilation. Together with Egypt's ejection of United Nations forces, the closing of the Straits of Tiran, and the massing of troops on Israel's northern and southern borders, the fiery rhetoric created a state of existential fear in Israel.

Egypt

"Our aim is the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel." – President Nasser of Egypt, November 18, 1965

"Brothers, it is our duty to prepare for the final battle in Palestine." – Nasser, Palestine Day, 1967

"Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight . . . The mining of Sharm el Sheikh is a confrontation with Israel. Adopting this measure obligates us to be ready to embark on a general war with Israel." – President Nasser of Egypt, May 27, 1967

"We will not accept any ... coexistence with Israel. ... Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel .... The war with Israel is in effect since 1948." – Nasser, May 28, 1967

"The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel . . . . to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations." – Nasser, May, 30, 1967 after signing a defense pact with Jordan's King Hussein

"We are now ready to confront Israel .... The issue now at hand is not the Gulf of Aqaba, the Straits of Tiran, or the withdrawal of UNEF, but the ... aggression which took place in Palestine ... with the collaboration of Britain and the United States." – Nasser, June 2, 1967

"Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria is in a position to cut Israel in two at Kalkilya, where Israeli territory between the Jordan armistice line and the Mediterranean Sea is only twelve kilometers wide ... ." – El Akhbar newspaper, Cairo, May 31, 1967

Cairo Radio Statements:

May 19, 1967: "This is our chance Arabs, to deal Israel a mortal blow of annihilation, to blot out its entire presence in our holy land"

May 22, 1967: "The Arab people is firmly resolved to wipe Israel off the map"

May 25, 1967: "The Gulf of Aqaba, by the dictum of history and the protection of our soldiers, is Arab, Arab, Arab."

May 25, 1967: "Millions of Arabs are ... preparing to blow up all of America's interests, all of America's installations, and your entire existence, America."

May 27, 1967: "We challenge you, Eshkol, to try all your weapons. Put them to the test; they will spell Israel's death and annihilation."

May 30, 1967: "With the closing of the Gulf of Akaba, Israel is faced with two alternatives either of which will destroy it; it will either be strangled to death by the Arab military and economic boycott, or it will perish by the fire of the Arab forces encompassing it from the South from the North and from the East."

May 30, 1967: "The world will know that the Arabs are girded for battle as the fateful hour approaches."

Jordan

"All of the Arab armies now surround Israel. The UAR, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, Lebanon, Algeria, Sudan, and Kuwait. ... There is no difference between one Arab people and another, no difference between one Arab army and another." – King Hussein of Jordan, after signing the pact with Egypt May 30, 1967

Iraq

"The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear – to wipe Israel off the map. We shall, God willing, meet in Tel Aviv and Haifa." – President Abdel Rahman Aref of Iraq, May 31, 1967

Palestinians

"D-Day is approaching. The Arabs have waited 19 years for this and will not flinch from the war of liberation." – Ahmed Shukairy, Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization, May 27, 1967

"This is a fight for the homeland – it is either us or the Israelis. There is no middle road. The Jews of Palestine will have to leave. We will facilitate their departure to their former homes. Any of the old Palestine Jewish population who survive may stay, but it is my impression that none of them will survive." – Ahmed Shukairy, June 1, 1967

"We shall destroy Israel and its inhabitants and as for the survivors – if there are any – the boats are ready to deport them." – Ahmed Shukairy, June 1, 1967, speaking at a Friday sermon in Jerusalem

Syria

Syria's forces are "ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united.... I as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." – Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad, May 20, 1967

"Our two brotherly countries have turned into one mobilized force. The withdrawal of the UN forces ... means 'make way, our forces are on their way to battle.'" – Foreign Minister Makhous on his return from Cairo

General References

1) Myths and Facts: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Mitchell G. Bard, 2001
2) Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Martin Gilbert, 1993
3) Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East, Michael B. Oren, 2002

______

[Zman]

Hi Zman:

After 40 years, much of the formerly classified planning and execution documents of the 6-day war are now available. Therefore a more balanced analysis can be made.

I am concerned that one of the legacies of this war was the general belief in Nasser’s assertion that the US and British troops participated. I have not been able to source any evidence that Nasser’s assertion was true. However, it is apparently taught as fact in textbooks in Middle Eastern states. I believe that this has resulted in the general anti-western attitude of the Arabs.

Regards,
Grenville

Peace Grenville,

yeah, I did hear that also. Honestly, anything is possible.

I believe I had posted a link to a video, on one of these threads, where former prime minster Yitzhak Rabin's wife admitted that Israel didn't win it's independence on it own in the 1948 War.

She stated that they were able to win, because the British and French air forces provided air cover for them, and neutralized any Arab air force involvement, and helped check Arab ground forces...

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[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

How Did The 1967 War Begin?

...How did Israel justify its attack?

Israeli UN envoy Abba Eban initially claimed to the United Nations Security Council that Egyptian troops had attacked first and that Israel's air strikes were retaliatory. Within a month, however, Israel admitted that it had launched the first strike. It asserted that it had faced an impending attack by Egypt, evidenced by Egypt's bellicose rhetoric, removal of UN peacekeeping troops from the Sinai Peninsula, closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, and concentration of troops along Israel's borders. The Soviet Union introduced a resolution to the UN Security Council naming Israel the aggressor in the war. This resolution was blocked by the US and Great Britain. Thereafter, the UN failed to rule definitively on the legality of Israel's actions, although it called for Israel's withdrawal from territories it seized.

Is Israel's version of the facts universally accepted?

Israel's claim of an impending Egyptian attack has been widely accepted in the West. The Israeli public had been led to believe that it faced a threat of imminent attack, and perhaps even annihilation. However, the veracity of Israel's claim is increasingly questioned. A number of senior Israeli military and political figures have subsequently admitted that Israel was not faced with a genuine threat of attack, and instead, deliberately chose war.

Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli army chief of staff during the war, later stated: "I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it."

If Israel's claimed reasons for the attack were false, what were its true objectives?

One objective may have been territorial expansion. Some Israeli politicians and military leaders, such as former Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion and Minister of Defence Moshe Dayan lamented the failure to seize East Jerusalem and the West Bank in the 1948 war. Before the war, Jordan's King Hussain told the American ambassador: "They want the West Bank. They've been waiting for a chance to get it, and they're going to take advantage of us and they're going to attack."

Second, Israeli politicians were genuinely fearful of Jamal Abdul Nasser, the charismatic leader of Arab nationalism. They may have seen the war as an opportunity to embarrass him and deflate the movement he embodied.

Third, Israeli leaders may have seen military confrontation with the Arab states as inevitable, and chose to engage in battle at a time and under terms of their choosing. Menachem Begin, for example, characterised Israel's war aim as to "take the initiative and attack the enemy, drive him back, and thus assure the security of Israel and the future of the nation."

Source:
http://www.gulf-news.com/region/Midd.../10130302.html

[MTAFFI]

ZMAN
so I suppose the above quotes by Rav are not enough to out weigh your 4 bolded sentences huh? Everyone knows that the Arabs started the war with Israel, it is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. Those quotes provided above, alone are enough to prove that. I am sure you will have a copy and paste for this as well though

[rav]

Shalom (Peace) zman,

It was actually a very interesting article that you have just presented. But there are some parts that are incorrect. Maybe you could address them if you feel I misread some parts.

1. Your article claims that Egypt never wished to attack Israel, then why all the signs that this was not the case? What would compel Nassar to say all of these things that are all recorded into history?

"Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight . . . The mining of Sharm el Sheikh is a confrontation with Israel. Adopting this measure obligates us to be ready to embark on a general war with Israel." – President Nasser of Egypt, May 27, 1967

"We will not accept any ... coexistence with Israel. ... Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel .... The war with Israel is in effect since 1948." – Nasser, May 28, 1967

"The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel . . . . to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations." – Nasser, May, 30, 1967 after signing a defense pact with Jordan's King Hussein

"We are now ready to confront Israel .... The issue now at hand is not the Gulf of Aqaba, the Straits of Tiran, or the withdrawal of UNEF, but the ... aggression which took place in Palestine ... with the collaboration of Britain and the United States." – Nasser, June 2, 1967

2. It seems like your article also did not mention that Egypt's decision to expel United Nations troops from the Sinai peninsula and blockade Israel's port of Eilat, under international law is a casus belli. (i.e. act of war)

Why was it that on May 15, Israel's 19th Independence Day, Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai and massing near the Israeli border. By May 18, Syrian troops were prepared for battle along the Golan Heights.

On May 16, Nassar requested the withdrawal of the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956. Egyptian forces moved up to the UNEF lines and began to harrass the UN positions. Without bringing the matter to the attention of the General Assembly, as his predecessor had promised, Secretary-General U Thant complied with the demand. This was a direct violation of the conditions under which Israel had returned control of the Sinai to Egypt after the Sinai Campaign. The UN force was supposed to safeguard Israel from Egypt again closing the Straits of Tiran or launching terrorist attacks from that quarter.

Finally, King Hussein of Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt on May 30, 1967, under which Jordan joined the Egyptian-Syrian military alliance of 1966 and placed its army on both sides of the Jordan river under Egyptian command.

So, why exactly would Jordan put its military in the hands of Egypt's goverment if an attack was not coming?

It seems that the majority of the evidence points towards the fact that the Arab nations sorounding Israel most likely provoked the war.

Please post your own opinions, and not another copy & paste article.

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

Truths About The Six-Day War: U.S. CIA & Military Secretly Helped Israelis

Mid-East Realities, 11 June 1997

MER - Most of the lies and distortions about the Six Day War in 1967 when Israel occupied the Golan, West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, remain today 30 years later.

The reality is that Israel encouraged and then took advantage of that war for many political, economic, and territorial reasons. In the following column by Prof. Tanya Reinhart, she puts this into perspective in so far as Israel's attack on Syria and capture of the Golan in the last days of the war.

What history still does not properly record are:

• Israel never was in military danger, the Israeli Army was always aware they could overpowered all the Arab armies.
  
  
• The US CIA was greatly involved in providing Israel intelligence information that greatly helped them win the war in such a short time.
  
  
• US military personnel, disguised as civilians and on secret missions to which they were sworn to secrecy, helped the Israelis with specific technical and intelligence-gathering operations.

There is also a considerable likelihood that in the years following the war the American CIA, cooperating with the Israeli Mossad, targeted Gamal Abdel Nasser, President of Egypt, just as was the case with other anti-American leaders in other parts of the world. Nasser's death may have been one of the CIA's greatest and most secret successes.

Recent revelations in Washington of destroyed CIA files dealing with foreign assassinations in the 50s and 60s adds a further dimension to this serious possibility.]

Dayan Admits Israel Attacked Syria In Land Grab

By Prof. Tanya Reinhart, translated from Yediot Aharonot, 6 May 1997
In June, it would be 30 years to the war of 1967 - the war that brought about the occupation.

Governments have changed from Labor to Likud and back several times since then, and what has changed?

Yediot Aharonot of April 27 has published an 1976 interview with Moshe Dayan (which was not previously published).

Dayan, who was the defense minister in 1967, explains there what led, then, to the decision to attack Syria.

In the collective consciousness of the period, Syria was conceived as a serious threat to the security of Israel, and a constant initiator of aggression towards the residents of northern Israel.

But according to Dayan, this is 'bull-****' - Syria was not a threat to Israel before 67.

Just drop it - he says as an answer to a question about the northern residences - I know how at least 80% of all the incidents with Syria started.

We were sending a tractor to the demilitarized zone and we knew that the Syrians will shoot.

If they did not shoot, we would instruct the tractor to go deeper, till the Syrians finally got upset and start shooting.

Then we employed artillery, and later also the air-force... I did that... and Itzhak Rabin did that, when he was there (as commander of the Northern front, in the early sixties).

And what has led Israel to provoke Syria?

According to Dayan, this was the greediness for the land - the idea that it is possible to grab a piece of land and keep it, until the enemy will get tired and give it to us.

The Syrian land was, as he says, particularly tempting, since, unlike Gaza and the West bank it was not heavily populated.

The 67 war has brought the big chance to grab the land, and along with the land, the water of the of the Jordan Riverheads.

Dayan insists that the decision to attack Syria was not motivated by security reasons:

You do not attack the enemy because he is a *******, but because he threatens you, and the Syrians in the fourth day of the war were not threatening us.

He adds that the initiative of Colonel David Elazar to open the Syrian front was assisted by a delegation sent to prime-minister Eshkol by the Northern kibbutz's, who did not even try to hide their greediness to that land.

In 1973, the Israeli society has paid, for the first time, a heavy price for the occupation - in the 'Yom Kippur' war.

The interview with Dayan was held three years after the defeat, and in that atmosphere, he explains that the decision to attack Syria was a mistake that will disable, in the future, peace with Syria.

One could infer from Dayan's words that he would have, perhaps, supported, withdrawal from the Golan heights, but Rabin, his partner to the road of the Labor, has never changed his skin.

At the first period of his term as prime-minister, many believed that he is seeking an agreement with Syria.

But behind the halo of our saviour the peace-maker, there was the same land-greedy commander who sent the tractors to provoke the Syrians in the early sixties.

In the tradition of all his predecessors, Rabin used the tactics of dragging negotiations:

He agreed to discuss everything (the location of inspection points, the dates of opening embassies) except for the one issue that Syria was interested in - which lands Israel is willing to give up in the Golan.

While Rabin's one hand was spreading rumors about secret agreements, to pacify public opinion, his other hand was pouring unprecedented budgets for developing the Israeli settlements in the Golan Heights.

Apartments previously frozen were sold to anyone interested, and huge amounts of money were invested in developing foundation work and industry.

All Netanyahu had to do is pick the fruits.

Thirty years after, the land-greedy are still stealing and appropriating it wherever possible - in the Golan heights, as in the West Bank.

What we are left with are the words of Yifat Kastiel, whose twin sister was murdered recently in Wadi Kelet:

They fight here all the time over pieces of land. But what importance could the land have, when the people who live here are so miserable?

Professor Reinhart teaches Linguistics at Tel Aviv University and is a member of the Advisory Committee of the Committee On the Middle East (COME).

Source:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51a/022.html

[Zman]

Shalom (Peace) zman,

It was actually a very interesting article that you have just presented. But there are some parts that are incorrect. Maybe you could address them if you feel I misread some parts.

1. Your article claims that Egypt never wished to attack Israel, then why all the signs that this was not the case? What would compel Nassar to say all of these things that are all recorded into history?

"Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight . . . The mining of Sharm el Sheikh is a confrontation with Israel. Adopting this measure obligates us to be ready to embark on a general war with Israel." – President Nasser of Egypt, May 27, 1967

"We will not accept any ... coexistence with Israel. ... Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel .... The war with Israel is in effect since 1948." – Nasser, May 28, 1967

"The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel . . . . to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations." – Nasser, May, 30, 1967 after signing a defense pact with Jordan's King Hussein

"We are now ready to confront Israel .... The issue now at hand is not the Gulf of Aqaba, the Straits of Tiran, or the withdrawal of UNEF, but the ... aggression which took place in Palestine ... with the collaboration of Britain and the United States." – Nasser, June 2, 1967

2. It seems like your article also did not mention that Egypt's decision to expel United Nations troops from the Sinai peninsula and blockade Israel's port of Eilat, under international law is a casus belli. (i.e. act of war)

Why was it that on May 15, Israel's 19th Independence Day, Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai and massing near the Israeli border. By May 18, Syrian troops were prepared for battle along the Golan Heights.

On May 16, Nassar requested the withdrawal of the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956. Egyptian forces moved up to the UNEF lines and began to harrass the UN positions. Without bringing the matter to the attention of the General Assembly, as his predecessor had promised, Secretary-General U Thant complied with the demand. This was a direct violation of the conditions under which Israel had returned control of the Sinai to Egypt after the Sinai Campaign. The UN force was supposed to safeguard Israel from Egypt again closing the Straits of Tiran or launching terrorist attacks from that quarter.

Finally, King Hussein of Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt on May 30, 1967, under which Jordan joined the Egyptian-Syrian military alliance of 1966 and placed its army on both sides of the Jordan river under Egyptian command.

So, why exactly would Jordan put its military in the hands of Egypt's goverment if an attack was not coming?

It seems that the majority of the evidence points towards the fact that the Arab nations sorounding Israel most likely provoked the war.

Please post your own opinions, and not another copy & paste article.

Peace rav,

God Willing, I'll address your points, later tonight...

[thirdwatch512]

FACT: the arabs provocked the 6 day war.

i suppose though that if one can deny the Holocaust, then they can certainly deny the fact that the arabs provoced the six day war, and not the Israeli's.

it's a fact.. and it can't be denied. as much as some people want to be anti semetic and blame it on a group of people for no reason, it just can't be done.

i hate people who lyingly point fingers at people when they know they are wrong, and have been proved wrong.

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

You are all correct; but after 40 years there is sufficient evidence for a balanced presentation. The Arab nations certainly provoked the war, and Dayan has admitted that he attempted to provoke Syria with his ploughing near the Syrian border. However, since there is no evidence of US or British troop support after 40 years, the schools in the Middle East need to amend their curriculum.

Regards,
Grenville

[Zman]

However, since there is no evidence of US or British troop support after 40 years, the schools in the Middle East need to amend their curriculum.

Regards,
Grenville

Peace Grenville,

1. Didn't what Professor Reinhart (my post # 8) constitute US/Uk direct "troop support" for Israel?

At least non-combat support. That would make them active participants in the Israeli aggression.

2. Also, here's another bit of surprising info (I guess for the time being there is no verifibale proof, but give it time. Since there is no smoke without a fire):

In his book Six Days veteran BBC journalist Jeremy Bowen claims that on 4 June, 1967 the Israeli ship Miryam left Felixstowe with cases of machine guns, 105 mm tank shells, and armored vehicles in "the latest of many consignments of arms that had been sent secretly to Israel from British and American reserves since the crisis started" and that "Israeli transport planes had been running a 'shuttle service' in and out of RAF Waddington in Lincolnshire".

Bowen claims that Harold Wilson had written to Eshkol saying that he was glad to help as long as the utmost secrecy was maintained

Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

[Walter]

Hi Zman:

There is clear evidence that the US supplied Israel with weapons before the 6-day war and the USSR armed the Arab states. I am aware of the assertion that the US supplied arms during the conflict but whether they were purchased or given is unclear. I have not seen evidence of the intelligence support.

Never the less, providing arms is not what Nasser was asserting nor what is being taught to children in the Middle East. Nasser claimed that US and British airplanes attacked the Egyptian army, and 40 years later there is no evidence for this. Will someone please tell the children of the Middle East the truth, or are we going to continue this manufactured cycle of hate for another generation.

Regards,
Grenville

[Zman]

Hi Zman:

Never the less, providing arms is not what Nasser was asserting nor what is being taught to children in the Middle East. Nasser claimed that US and British airplanes attacked the Egyptian army, and 40 years later there is no evidence for this. Will someone please tell the children of the Middle East the truth, or are we going to continue this manufactured cycle of hate for another generation.

Regards,
Grenville

Peace Grenville,

Ok, I have a theory that I'm currently entertaining:

Since Israel simultaneousely attacked all (or the vast majority) of Egyptian military airports, how did they do that, since some of the air bases were deep inside Egypt?

I don't think Israel had Jets that could carry the amount of fuel and bombs to last them a round-trip mission, and I believe that Israel had no mid-air refueling cababilities at the time (was it even developed then?).

So, my observations/questions are:

1. Either other powers directly assisted in targeting the air bases,

2. Cabale long-range Jets (with external bladders) were loaned to Israel,

3. If mid-air refueling was available at the time, could have Israeli Jets used US tankers on their missions?

4. Lastly, could have the Israeli Jets used US aircraft carriers in the Med to refuel and reload on their deep-strike missions?

[Walter]

Hi Zman:

Let me research this theory. However, if the planes used were able to achieve a round trip without refuelling, then let us agree that the theory is likely to be false.

Regards,
Grenville

[Zman]

Hi Zman:

Let me research this theory. However, if the planes used were able to achieve a round trip without refuelling, then let us agree that the theory is likely to be false.

Regards,
Grenville

Peace Grenville,

Cool. You got yourself a deal...

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

Six-Day War Deceptions

2 YouTube videos from a Dutch show that interviewed the former Dutch UN observer:

Part-1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yorwo...eptions%2Ehtml

Part-2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgZQp...eptions%2Ehtml

[Walter]

Hi Zman:

It appears that the IDF primarily used the Mirage IIIC which has a fuel range of 1,350 km. The farthest Egyptian airbase is near Cario and using the documented flight path shown below provides a distance of approximately 1,200 km. Therefore the IDF did not need US and British refuelling assistance.

Regards,
Grenville

Flight path source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/h...l/nn1page1.stm

[Trumble]

Ok, I have a theory that I'm currently entertaining:

Since Israel simultaneousely attacked all (or the vast majority) of Egyptian military airports, how did they do that, since some of the air bases were deep inside Egypt?

Perfect planning and immaculate timing. The details of exactly which squadrons of Israeli planes did what are fully known - it was not a plan that could be repeated. All targets were within range (you don't think someone might have come up with this 'theory' before if that were not the case?!) The initial strikes were against ten airfields, by four planes in each case. That left the Israelis 12 aircraft (only) for home defence. A further nine bases were hit later in the morning.

I don't think Israel had Jets that could carry the amount of fuel and bombs to last them a round-trip mission, and I believe that Israel had no mid-air refueling cababilities at the time (was it even developed then?).

It had been developed; the US was using it in Vietnam. The Israelis did not have aircraft equipped to do it... or to land on carriers. Neither did they have carrier-trained pilots.

The simple truth is that the whole myth of US/British involvement emerged firstly as the Arabs couldn't figure out how else such a complete disaster could have happened, and later because being so comprehensively defeated by Israel alone was a major embarrassment. Honor was pretty much restored in 1973.

[Walter]

Hi Trumble:

While some honour may have been restored among the military and politicians, it evidently was not restored among the people or the religious leaders. How could God be on the Arab nation’s side and have allowed them suffer such a humiliating defeat within 6 days. Remember many men died in that short space of time.

The legacy has been an unjustified and sustained hatred of the US and the UK that remains to this day. The most irresponsible act that a teacher and parent can do is to teach their students and children respectively to hate another person. Who is willing to tell the new generation of persons in the Middle East the truth?

Regards
Grenville

[Sami Zaatari]

Hi Trumble:

While some honour may have been restored among the military and politicians, it evidently was not restored among the people or the religious leaders. How could God be on the Arab nation’s side and have allowed them suffer such a humiliating defeat within 6 days. Remember many men died in that short space of time.

The legacy has been an unjustified and sustained hatred of the US and the UK that remains to this day. The most irresponsible act that a teacher and parent can do is to teach their students and children respectively to hate another person. Who is willing to tell the new generation of persons in the Middle East the truth?

Regards
Grenville

where you get your info from? yes arab people did feel they restored their honor with the war of 73, they now felt they made up for the 6 day war defeat and that was that.

as for god being on their side in the 6 day war, so have christians and jews won EVERY war and battle they have been in? no they havent, so therefore if you lose one war ah yes this then means god is never on your side and is actually against you, wow i guess god pretty much hates the jews then according to your logic since he let hitler literally wipe the floor with them. not only that, i guess god must also really hate western nations since he let you kill hundred of thousands of each other combined during ww1 and ww2.

not only that i guess god has now changed sides because a 10000 israeli idf force couldnt beat a 2000 hezbollah force! the last war between the israelis and arabs was won by the arabs, all israel can boast about is destroying buildings and infastructure, but that means nothing as buildings and infastructure can be rebuilt, however so losing moral among your soldiers and getting generals resigning and even admiting the war wasnt won is a very hard thing to recover from. :) israel no longer feels that superiority they once had thanks to the lebanon war, this is why their looking for another war to heal their wounds and damaged morals, but too bad this aint the 40's and 50's and 60's no more because in todays present day israel has no chance of destroying and completly beating the arabs like before, unless they would use a nuke which would not only wipe us out, but themselves included hence lol we still win as we go to heaven and them to hell and israel is wiped of the map! :)

[MTAFFI]

where you get your info from? yes arab people did feel they restored their honor with the war of 73, they now felt they made up for the 6 day war defeat and that was that.

as for god being on their side in the 6 day war, so have christians and jews won EVERY war and battle they have been in? no they havent, so therefore if you lose one war ah yes this then means god is never on your side and is actually against you, wow i guess god pretty much hates the jews then according to your logic since he let hitler literally wipe the floor with them. not only that, i guess god must also really hate western nations since he let you kill hundred of thousands of each other combined during ww1 and ww2.

not only that i guess god has now changed sides because a 10000 israeli idf force couldnt beat a 2000 hezbollah force! the last war between the israelis and arabs was won by the arabs, all israel can boast about is destroying buildings and infastructure, but that means nothing as buildings and infastructure can be rebuilt, however so losing moral among your soldiers and getting generals resigning and even admiting the war wasnt won is a very hard thing to recover from. :) israel no longer feels that superiority they once had thanks to the lebanon war, this is why their looking for another war to heal their wounds and damaged morals, but too bad this aint the 40's and 50's and 60's no more because in todays present day israel has no chance of destroying and completly beating the arabs like before, unless they would use a nuke which would not only wipe us out, but themselves included hence lol we still win as we go to heaven and them to hell and israel is wiped of the map! :)

your logic and thought processes never cease to be a waste of post space, all you wish for is arguments and humility, which is ironic since you almost always lose the arguments (which you then claim to win, because people realize your stupidity and stop wasting their time to reply to your ignorant posts) and you never cease to humiliate yourself.
:D

[Walter]

Hi Sami Zaatari:

where you get your info from? yes arab people did feel they restored their honor with the war of 73, they now felt they made up for the 6 day war defeat and that was that.

1. Have you read the rhetoric from the various factions before the war. It seemed that defeat was impossible – so much so that even after the Egyptian military had been defeated, Nasser kept misleading the region claiming that the Egyptian forces were victorious. Why could he not tell them the truth. To this day, the erroneous assertion of US and UK participation is taught to Egyptian school children at school by their teachers and text books. To this day, they seem unable to face the facts of the 6-day war.

as for god being on their side in the 6 day war ...

2. I may have contributed to your apparent misinterpretation of my post. I did not mean to indicate the God was on anybody’s side of the conflict. I should have written: The religious leaders must have wondered “How could God be on the Arab nation’s side and have allowed them suffer such a humiliating defeat within 6 days.”

Regards,
Grenville

[rav]

where you get your info from? yes arab people did feel they restored their honor with the war of 73, they now felt they made up for the 6 day war defeat and that was that.

as for god being on their side in the 6 day war, so have christians and jews won EVERY war and battle they have been in? no they havent, so therefore if you lose one war ah yes this then means god is never on your side and is actually against you, wow i guess god pretty much hates the jews then according to your logic since he let hitler literally wipe the floor with them. not only that, i guess god must also really hate western nations since he let you kill hundred of thousands of each other combined during ww1 and ww2.

not only that i guess god has now changed sides because a 10000 israeli idf force couldnt beat a 2000 hezbollah force! the last war between the israelis and arabs was won by the arabs, all israel can boast about is destroying buildings and infastructure, but that means nothing as buildings and infastructure can be rebuilt, however so losing moral among your soldiers and getting generals resigning and even admiting the war wasnt won is a very hard thing to recover from. :) israel no longer feels that superiority they once had thanks to the lebanon war, this is why their looking for another war to heal their wounds and damaged morals, but too bad this aint the 40's and 50's and 60's no more because in todays present day israel has no chance of destroying and completly beating the arabs like before, unless they would use a nuke which would not only wipe us out, but themselves included hence lol we still win as we go to heaven and them to hell and israel is wiped of the map! :)

Shalom,

First may I ask you Sami, how exactly did the Arab nations restore their “honor” in 1973? I was under the impression that the Arabs attacked Israel on the highest of all Jewish holidays, (the ultimate low blow) and then proceeded to lose. Maybe I am not recalling history correctly. Either way, the topic that was brought up is very interesting. To interpret which “side” G-d is on, by the result of a war, seems a bit odd, however Judaism teaches us something very significant in this regard. In my belief, as a people with a mission the Jewish people will never die out, as we have survived the likes of Roman, Greece, Nazi Germany etc. Not to mention that according to many Jews, a state should never have been made because of religious reasons. Either way, it was created so now it is a fact of life and the ultimate decider on religious views is how many lives will be lost or saved.

When the Arabs attack Israel, I believe that nothing could prevent their total loss, because they would have slaughtered every Jew in the land. But in regards to mere battles that are not fought over survival, the level of religiosity in Israel, (which is at about 30% who follow Torah) we will not necessarily win wars.

This is of course in my view the birth pangs of the Messiah. The Vilna Gaon (1700’s) wrote in Sefer Kol Hator (translation) that “If the Jews follow the glorious Torah they will be led by the divine into the promise land and Moshiach will come, however, if they reject the Torah they will enter the promised land weeping, head held down as the nations allow them back just like Cyrus allowed the Jews back to build the Second Temple before the Messiah reveals himself.”

The interesting part of this is the accuracy the Vilna Gaon’s prediction had in that the Jews of the 1940’s were not very religious, more focused on nationalism, and therefore entered the Holy Land weeping (after the Holocaust) and the nations (UN) allowed them back, just like Cyrus and the nations of the world allowed the Jews safe return to build the Second Bais Hamikdash.

However I am ranting, so I will try to stay on topic. Winning a war or “wiping the floor with Jews” as you referred to the holocaust, is always viewed as the worst thing possible. It was a terrible thing indeed and Hitler was one of the worst of humanity as the terrorists are today who kill. However, does this mean that the Jewish people are no longer favored by G-d because of the Holocaust? I think not. On the contrary, the Holocaust was in reality one of the greatest miracles, as was and has been anti-Semitism throughout the ages.

The fact is that the German Jews assimilated, so this is why it had to occur. The Germans had free will so they are completley accountable for their crimes, because it was G-d literally letting the Germans/Non-Jews of Europe reveal their true colors. In 1930's Germany the largest rebellion against the Torah occured. Intermarriage was as high as 50% and the German Jews were forgetting Judaism. Therefore they were reminded about Judaism, in the most ruthless way.

Anti-Semitism is the greatest blessing Whenever the Goyam (Non-Jews) act like anti-semites, than we are reminded we are Jews and we are less willing to act like them and leave the Torah. Therefore, we praise G-d for allowing such an odd occurance of all these nations, be it parts of the Islamic world today, Germany, Czar's, Soviets... They kept us Jewish and maintained our peoplehood.

Some of us tried to act like Germans in dress and what occured? We were labeled with yellow stars that said "Juden". Some of us changed our names to German anmes so what did the Germans do? Made it mandatory to have the middle name "Israel" for every Jew. The Germans literally kept us Jewish, yet we continued to rebel against the Torah.

Yes, the majority who died wereare religious Jews because of their garb, but I will relate to you a story. In the Wilderness, all the Jews kept the Sabbath except for one man who accidently broke it. What did G-d say? "You all sinned". Of course I am not saying the Holocaust was good, I am recongnizing that throughout history, when the Jewish people rebel against G-d, we are under an eternal agreement with his Torah and Him, so we will be brought into line. Hitler and all who commit the crimes are accountables still mainly because it was their free will. I will explain in more in depth:

For men whose final goal is the afterlife, assimilation is worse than death. These phenomenons’s are but a few of the countless machinery that which the Master of history has ceaselessly carried out to preserve the Chosen community. When Hitler was burning European Jews, a prominent newspaper here expressed some pity for these “miserable wretches”. This mentality of these gentiles to admire the men of violence and those who “fight” and despise the weak, is a disgusting one.

Since the Jews fell into the trap of trying to emulate the Germans so much, G-d allowed the Germans to do their utmost to show who they truly are. Those Jews that began to ignore their soul, and in imitation, like all those around them began to only focus on the needs of the body, were made to see how their efforts were ended in the worst ruination of Jewish bodied in history (The Germans burned my people after gassing them). The Jews at this point were so infatuated by the schools of science and the German physicians and ignored their religion, and the covenant, therefore, look at the disgusting nature of the physicians which were revealed (They performed disgusting experiments on my people).

In an era, when such discriminatory laws and ghettos were unknown, this sudden phenomenon to medieval times was truly startling! Now this theory may seem disgusting to you, and it is to me as well, but ponder on this. Judaism teaches that you should die than rather renounce the Torah. Therefore, a Jew who died in the Holocaust is tremendously better off in the long run as a Jew who died because of his religion, then a Jew who would assimilate and renounce the Torah in Germany. Of course, Hitler and his demons had free will as we all do; their true nature was just revealed to us. Therefore, every action they committed results in punishment for them. I am no way saying the Holocaust is not anything less than the worst of all genocide, I am just saying that everything in the world has a purpose, which we may or may not ever understand.

The bottom line is that the more anti-Semitism, we as Jews receive the more our community is preserved and the more we as Jews are not so eager to intermarry and forsake the Torah to join secular culture. It is a known fact that the less anti-Semitism is exhibited in an area, the more assimilation occurs.

Written a while ago on this forum:

Although all the great and powerful ancient nations are gone, the Jews, have survived. This is because the Jews throughout the centuries knew the secret of survival. Jewish survival, at least.

That is, whereas the other Nations survive based on who is stronger, where the Jewish nation is concerned, it is just the opposite. For us to remain safe, we are instructed by Hashem in the Gemora in Kesuvos not to defy the nations of the world, even when we are right and they are wrong. We do not survive by waging wars or by any show of physical strength. On the contrary - the less we are in conflict with the nations of the world, the safer we are. The more we are in conflict with them, the more deadly it is for us. Regardless of how physically "strong" we are.

This is how we have so miraculously survived two thousand years of (exile) Golus. By following the instructions of Torah and our sages throughout the generations: Do NOT fight with the Goyim (Non-Jews).

If we do fight with them, we can only lose r"l. The Gemora says the result will be that Jewish blood will be spilled "like that of game hunted in the field."

Writes Rabbeinu Bachya (Vayishlach): "So too we must follow the ways of our ancestors, and to prepare ourselves to engage the [Goyim] with gifts and with soft speech, and by praying to Hashem. But [to engage them] with war is not possible, as it says (Shir HaShirim 2:7) 'I have made you swear....' Hashem made the Jews swear that they will not confront the nations of the world in war." However, self defense or protection of Jewish life is a justifiable means for war.

So the conclusion I have come to is that the winner of the war is in reality not in anyway on G-d’s side. Of course G-d will intervene to save The Jewish people as He has done so many time before because of our specific mission. But when fighting a worthless war, against a bunch of “thugs” like in Lebanon, why should Israel win? It is not life or death and 70% of the population continues to violate the Torah. So of course, Israel will survive against Arab threats, however, we are undeserving of winning battles for the sake of fighting. That is the way of the non-Jewish nations (the goyam). The Jewish people should not fight battles in (golus) exile. We are not meant to.

To end my very long post (thank you if you took the time to read so far is this): From the Jewish Oral Tradition codified thousands of years ago; Persia, (which is Iran) The Khazal inform us that before the Messiah comes Persia will fall at the hands of Rome (and vice-versa). [On an external level, all eyes are on Iran's nuclear development, but the chess-board of world politics is merely the playing out of the internal divine drama of the Jewish people.] (from, Talmud, Yoma 10a)

Paras according to the sages equals Persia:

Last Shabbos after Mincha, Jews all over the world recited the first chapter of Pirkei Avos. The third Mishna states:

Antigonus of Socho received the Torah from Shimon the Righteous. He used to say: Be not like servants who minister unto their master for the sake of receiving a reward [pras פרס], but be like servants who serve their master not upon the condition of receiving a reward [pras פרס]; and let the fear (awe) of Heaven be upon you.

As explained in Chassidus (see for example Ohr Hatorah Bamidbar III, 583a), Paras (פרס) is from the word פרוסה meaning a "slice", a fraction of something much greater (a slice of the whole pie). Specifically, this refers to the Divine hashpa'a in Gan Eden that results from learning Torah and performing mitzvos. In this Mishna, we are being told not to serve our Master (Hashem) for the "reward" that is generated by our divine service in refining sparks of kedusha. This includes the neshoma above which enjoys these revelations now--because these revelations are merely a "slice" (Paras) of the essence of the mitzva, which will only be experienced in the World to Come with the revival of the dead after Moshiach comes.

Based on this, we can understand why the fall of Paras precedes the redemption: because as long as our neshomas are enjoying the "slice" of the reward for refining the world through mitzvos, they are distracted, so to speak, from the ultimate goal: the coming of Moshiach and the revelation of the "whole pie".

Have a great weekend and peace to all of you.

This whole Iran thing should play out to be very interesting. Of course the sages having been telling us about this way before Iran’s nuclear program hit the news, and thousands of years before a state of Israel was created. :-) They relate, before the Moshaich the “threat of Persia” -- (From the Mordechai ibn Yosef) must fall before Moshiach (Messiah) arrives.

[Sami Zaatari]

your logic and thought processes never cease to be a waste of post space, all you wish for is arguments and humility, which is ironic since you almost always lose the arguments (which you then claim to win, because people realize your stupidity and stop wasting their time to reply to your ignorant posts) and you never cease to humiliate yourself.
:D

instead of barking like a dog which is what you always do, why dont you try refuting what i say? nah, your just a typical barking neocon who cant reply, hence you make stupid useless posts which show how bad i get to you because i thought you dont care about what i say, hence why do you always reply to it trying to attack me personally instead of refuting it? as i said, a barking dog thats all you are. when you can actually refute anything i say once, then maybe you can take the label of a barking dog off you, until then thats exactly what you are, woof!

[Sami Zaatari]

iran isnt persia anymore. :) lol so it seems your prophesy has failed. it wouldve been better had they said Islamic republic of iran, rather than persia, cause the 2 things are very different, the persian empire did fall, and not at the hands of jews, but muslims, :) and your messiah came even before the fall of persia, and he was Jesus, and you rejected him, and tried to kill him, hence that prophecy of bin yosef is pure garbage if you ask me. :)

[MTAFFI]

instead of barking like a dog which is what you always do, why dont you try refuting what i say? nah, your just a typical barking neocon who cant reply, hence you make stupid useless posts which show how bad i get to you because i thought you dont care about what i say, hence why do you always reply to it trying to attack me personally instead of refuting it? as i said, a barking dog thats all you are. when you can actually refute anything i say once, then maybe you can take the label of a barking dog off you, until then thats exactly what you are, woof!

What am I to refute? You presented nothing factual as usual, you simply typed our hatred for others and left yet another stain on this forum.

In this post you speak of how bad you get me because I respond, I dont have to care of what you say to respond with an opinion about how worthless your post is, which is also why I went after you personally rather than your post, because your post is worthless garbage unworthy of response, whereas something can be gained by responding to your person, which is exactly what I got, you puppet, proof that you are a vile disrespectful human being...lol.. sure Sami, you really nailed me...lol.. give me a break, I am sure your posts will be disposed of as usual shortly

[Sami Zaatari]

What am I to refute? You presented nothing factual as usual, you simply typed our hatred for others and left yet another stain on this forum.

In this post you speak of how bad you get me because I respond, I dont have to care of what you say to respond with an opinion about how worthless your post is, which is also why I went after you personally rather than your post, because your post is worthless garbage unworthy of response, whereas something can be gained by responding to your person, which is exactly what I got, you puppet, proof that you are a vile disrespectful human being...lol.. sure Sami, you really nailed me...lol.. give me a break, I am sure your posts will be disposed of as usual shortly

woof woof i hear a dog barking SHHHHHHHHHHHHH silence! *throws bone*

stop blabbering plz, go to some dating or general forum for that, if you have nothing to say connected to the topic, or points raised for the topic then simply keep your blabbering mouth shut, comprenday? if you dont like that too bad and too sad, thats the way it is. so plz AGAIN try refuting what i say, instead of barking plz.

and notice how stupid you are, by trying to make me look bad, you make urself look bad because you admit your trying to provoke me:

which is also why I went after you personally rather than your post, because your post is worthless garbage unworthy of response, whereas something can be gained by responding to your person, which is exactly what I got, you puppet, proof that you are a vile disrespectful human being

lol talk about stupid, so basically you admit you try to provoke me, and then call me disrespectful and vile when infact you are provoking a nasty reaction! wow! talk about idiocy at its highest! so as i say, keep it up, you make urself look really silly. and btw, you didnt provoke me at all, calling you a barking dog isnt an insult, its a fact, thats what you are, you keep writing nonsense which has nothing to do with the topic or points of the topic, hence all you do is bark bark.

but anyways thanks for showing how most of you neocons are, you try to provoke only, thanks for admitting it, i always knew you were looking for fights and trouble, how typical, oh well thats an infidel for you. No wonder Allah called you the lowest of the low. :)

[Walter]

Hi Rav:

I read it all and found it very interesting. It may be that God was disappointed with the idol worship in Africa and allowed the African Diaspora. He may also have been disappointed with the idol worship in the Caribbean which resulted in their displacement by colonisers who were then displaced by the descendants of their African slaves.

The scriptures seem to indicate that once a nation has exceeded a specified amount of wickedness, then judgement occurs, and that judgement is usually carried out by another nation. The rain of judgement falls on the just and the unjust – it seems that the unjust deserve it and the just should have restrained them during the time of grace.

E.g. But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.” Gen 15:16

It is therefore important for responsible citizens to try to restrain (obviously in a peaceful manner) those who are contributing to their nation’s iniquity. In democracies, the very least that responsible citizens can do is to not vote for those candidates whose policies would add to their national iniquity.

Let me add that this is all speculation which will be confirmed or dismissed at the end of the age.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Regards,
Grenville

[rav]

Iran isnt persia anymore. lol so it seems your prophesy has failed. it wouldve been better had they said Islamic republic of iran, rather than persia, cause the 2 things are very different, the persian empire did fall, and not at the hands of jews, but muslims, and your messiah came even before the fall of persia, and he was Jesus, and you rejected him, and tried to kill him, hence that prophecy of bin yosef is pure garbage if you ask me.

On the contrary Sami, the people who are the Persians are the ones that speak Persian and live in the region of Persia. Which country has an official language of Persian in the region of Persia?

A side note: I'm interested in the prophecy of the "Dajjal" being followed by 70,000 Jews of Isfahan, when the Jewish population continues to decrease in Isfahan. However, anyway the point of me posting once again before the Sabbath was merely to clarify that the prophecy is in no way broken as the Persian speakers are indeed still in control of Iran. If Iran begins to adapt Arabic culture and no begins to speak Arabic as the offical tounge than maybe we can discuss that Khazal was wrong in Yoma.

hence that prophecy of bin yosef is pure garbage if you ask me.

Fair enough. However, I beg to differ and although I really did not ask you, but instead posted an interesting prophecy, it must be connected to the overall geula which is from the Vilna Gaon, saying in the year 1700 "the nations would allow the Jewish people back weeping like Cyrus did in the Second Temple era" Of course I guess you could dispute that "the nations" means The UN, but that would be a very desperate claim to make.

________

But anyway, lets stay on topic Sami. Did you disagree with my overall position in the post on wars and G-d? I'll get back to you next week. The Sabbath is almost here.

[Sami Zaatari]

yes the population of jews in iran is going down now, but does that mean it cant go back up? 70,000 jews is not an extremly high number at all.

[Abdihakim]

:sl:

wow! i never knew that.

:w:

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

The Three-Year War (Six-Day War, 1967)
Courtesy Of: Al-Ahram
(Egypt)
5 - 11 June 1997
Issue No.328
Ahram

General Mohamed Fawzi, former minister of defence, was the chief of general staff of the Egyptian forces in June 1967, during what is known as the five-day war.

But Fawzi's first words are a correction of dates. The war, he considers, lasted not five days but three years.

---------------------

The war started on 5 June 1967, and ended in August 1970. Israel, however, had been preparing for war for ten long years before June 1967 and the US, Israel's active ally, supported these preparations.

Although the US had forced Israel to withdraw from Sinai in 1956, a secret document which was revealed 11 years later underlined the nature of the alliance between the two countries.

In a letter addressed to the Israeli government, President Eisenhower wrote: 'The United States pledges to keep the Gulf of Aqaba open for navigation as an international waterway.'

The document was concealed from all parties including Egypt, until May 1967, when it was made public by Washington. But why was it made public at that particular time?

The goal, which we learned later, was to provoke Egypt into reacting violently, thus turning international public opinion against it.

"After 1956, Israel formulated a plan for a comprehensive war against Egypt, the largest Arab state and the main threat to Israel's future. Ben Gurion believed that striking at the top would improve conditions for Israel, particularly since Egypt had made substantial progress in its first five-year plan (1962-1967).

"As part of the indemnities for Nazi war crimes, Israel concluded a number of arms deals providing it with Mirage-3 and Mirage-5 planes from France. Upgrading its airforce was part of a military plan known as Zion, which consisted of a vast air strike against Egypt, to be followed by a massive advance of its land troops. According to this plan, Israel trained its pilots in low-altitude flying, at 30 metres from sea level to gain skill for staging an air strike that would wipe out Egypt. The Zion plan included 10 years of training and preparation.

"A US intelligence warship sailed from the western coast of Africa and docked off Port Said. The ship sent information about the Egyptian military situation to Israeli planes coming from Tel Aviv to Sinai and Port Said. Starting on 4 June, the US warship had been providing Israel with intelligence on Egypt's main units in Sinai, particularly the fourth armoured division.

Interference by US intelligence operations was so damaging that, when the war broke out on 5 June, wireless communications between the Egyptian command and the forces were impossible. This crippled the management of the war.

The US sent a strategic airforce equipped with infrared devices to allow night flying, a practice not favoured by Israel.

US air squadron 66 stationed in Britain, also participated effectively in the war by carrying out reconnaissance work for the Israelis.

The Sixth Fleet, meanwhile, was guarding Israeli waters.

Nasser knew exactly what he was talking about when he accused the US of participating in the war.

"The June war was a premeditated military aggression planned since 1957.

The Israeli commander of the south zone, in a press conference after the war, said:

'My conscience can no longer bear this burden of silence nor the perpetration of deceit and dishonesty. I must admit that the June 1967 War was an offensive planned and premeditated by Israel, precisely since the end of 1956. Provoking the Arabs was part of the plan.'

"The political and military scandal caused by his confession ranked second only to the famous Lavon scandal.

The Knesset had called for a committee to investigate the case, and Golda Meir wept her refusal, saying: 'Do not tarnish our reputation and jeopardise our security.'

As a result, the whole matter was overlooked by the international media.

The Israeli general would not keep quiet, however. He resigned from the military and joined the Peace Now movement.

'We spent 10 long years with nothing on our minds but the Zion plan, for every eating, drinking, sleeping and waking hour. Finally, it was executed in 80 decisive minutes,' the Israeli commander stated.

"The Israeli plan was founded on three factors: surprise, deceit, and applying Israel's military principle of pushing any battle beyond the enemy's borders. In the first part, the airforce was to act; once its task was accomplished, the ground forces were to move in. In the event that the airforce failed to accomplish its task, the entire plan would be cancelled.

"The second part of the plan pertained to how Israel would deal with the Egyptian forces. El-Qaher, Egypt's defence plan, ratified in 1966, was conceived as the military dimension of the decision taken by the Arab Summit Meeting in 1964, to prevent Israel from expanding into Arab territory. The Egyptian plan focused on defence and deterrence techniques, while the Israeli forces were trained in attacks and raids."

...Egyptian support for Yemen meant sending forces as far as 2,600 nautical miles south, but in Fawzi's words, it was originally conceived as "a limited action comprising political, moral and material support -- by no means was it envisaged as an action that could drain our resources." Two battalions of special forces and an aircraft squadron were sent to Yemen to reinforce the nascent republican government and consolidate the revolution. Nasser himself referred to the support he sent to Yemen as "symbolic".

Egyptian military presence in Yemen, however, reached 70,000 servicemen in 1964.

According to Fawzi, although this contribution was made at a time when Israel seemed to be preparing for war, the political leadership in Egypt was not pessimistic enough to plan accordingly. Although the Egyptian military strategy was focused on the north-eastern axis, no significant effort was made to prepare for war in terms of equipment or training of military cadres.

Fawzi acknowledges the enormous error committed by expanding the operations in Yemen to cover the entire battle front, with its difficult mountains, vast deserts and tribal conflicts.

...The basic error, no doubt, was that our strategy lost its focus and looked south instead of north. This caused an imbalance in the focus of the military command responsible for national security.

...The Egyptian forces came back from Yemen and were sent to Sinai immediately, where they met a well-armed and highly-trained enemy.

"The Egyptian military command was handicapped by its lack of strategic reconnaissance facilities. Israel knew everything about us, while we knew nothing about its military might. Another problem was the complete separation between the political and the military leaderships in Egypt in the period preceding the war.

"In December 1966, Nasser received a coded message from Field Marshal Amer, who was on an official visit to Pakistan.

He wrote: 'It is our duty to consider ending the task of the United Nations emergency forces [stationed along the Egyptian-Israeli borders in Sinai]. Certain neighbouring Arab countries are accusing the Egyptian forces of hiding behind the emergency forces and refusing to lend other Arabs a hand.'

"This was the earliest sign of discord between the two top leaders of the country. Amer claimed to be representing the views of the high-ranking military, but this was not necessarily the case. He was speaking his own mind, and his decisions were arbitrary. The differences between the two men were to grow deeper over preparations for battle.

"The second important issue which highlighted Nasser and Amer's conflicting standpoints surfaced during a meeting attended by ministers and high-ranking officers.

Amer insisted on the closing of the Tiran Straits, a proposal opposed by all those attending.

He demanded: 'How can an Egyptian soldier bear to see the Israeli flag in the gulf?' The decision to close the Straits was taken at this meeting. Preparations and public mobilisation were stepped up, troops were moved, and the media captured the mood with excessive zeal.

"Nasser, however, did not wish to be distracted by side issues. He wanted to focus on the threat Israel posed to Syria.

He was aware that Egypt had hardly been able to provide the basics for the implementation of the El-Qaher plan.

"But Israel and the US would have gone ahead on 5 June whether the straits were closed or not, whether the emergency forces remained in place or were ordered to leave. While the threat to attack Syria seemed imminent, the plan for war against Egypt was ready.

"The decision to close the gulf had several negative consequences.

Executing the decision required enormous human and material resources, which compromised the effectiveness of El-Qaher, Egypt's defence plan. As a result, Amer had to withdraw part of the forces in Sinai to station them in Sharm El-Sheikh, but when he could no longer find forces, he began to draw on the strategic reserve forces, first a brigade of paratroopers and then the fourth armoured division, which is the strategic reserve of the state.

Therefore, the war started without a strategic reserve.

"At this point, I can assert, looking back 30 years after the battle took place, that we were doomed to lose before a single shot was fired. It was not the best time for Egypt to fight, and the situation was aggravated by the total discord between the political and military leaderships. The military leadership had separated itself from the constitutional organisation of the state, a situation which can lead to nothing but failure. The proof is that the battle was fought by one side only, Israel.

A staggering 75 per cent of Egypt's ground forces did not even see the enemy, let alone engage in combat. The death toll among the Egyptian forces was only 10,000 men: 1,000 died in confrontations in Rafah and Gaza, and 9,000 were victims of the 'wrong and arbitrary decision of one man'.

"On the evening of 6 June, hardly 24 hours after the beginning of the war, Amer ordered the forces to withdraw to the west bank of the Canal, and to leave their weapons behind. He repeated the same order on 7 June, and it wreaked havoc. A stampede took place in the narrow mountain passes. Thousands found their death there.
"Why did Amer not consult anyone before giving this order?

There is some background to the story. Before the war, Amer had issued Presidential Decree 118, merging the post of chief of staff of the armed forces into a new administration, to be named the Supreme Armed Forces Command. But this new body was established on paper only, without terms of reference, so that, as chief of staff of the armed forces, I was not assigned any field operation in the 1967 battle. My functions were transferred to the commander of the ground forces, and I, like all the rest of the able commanders, became nothing but onlookers. The reason, obviously, is that I had been selected originally by Nasser, not Amer.

"Despite the debacle of the sixth, it is impossible to say exactly when the war ended. On 10 June, the decision for a cease-fire on the Arab front was issued, yet the Ras El-Esh battle was fought on 1 July, by the very forces which had withdrawn, carrying the weapons which had not been used in June. This situation reminds me of the two decisions calling for a cease-fire issued in the 1948 war: one was to last a month and the second 20 days. Yet the fighting never stopped. The truth is that naval battles raged on after 5 June. On 5 June 1967, Israel was far from scoring a decisive victory.

"Egyptians did not consider themselves to have fought a war and lost it; the term defeat did not seem to apply. To be defeated implies the conquest of territory, the collapse of the regime, but this did not occur in June 1967. In fact, the people's overwhelming rejection of Nasser's resignation on 9 and 10 June is proof that the regime had not collapsed in the least. The June experience was therefore referred to as the 'setback'.

"After the war, the people started to play an active role in the affairs of their country and to speak their minds. A new strategy was adoped, not for the defence of the land, but for its liberation. Liberation was a national cause defined in the resolutions of the Khartoum Summit held on 27 September 1967.
"It was time to change the leadership and to break free from the shackles of a divided command. The armed forces were to experience reform, and new scientific techniques were introduced to upgrade performance.

"From there, we fought the War of Attrition, then the October War, and we were victorious."

© Copyright Al-Ahram Weekly. All rights reserved

Source:
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/archives/67-97/sup8.htm

---------------------

My Conclusions:

As we can deduce from the above narrative, Israel had pre-planned to attack Egypt (and other Arab nations) in 1967.

The Israeli assertion that the Arabs had planned all along to attack it, and that the war was forced upon it, is a complete fabrication.

The reasons that Egypt did not start the war, are:

1. After the Israeli aggression against Egypt in 1956, it immediately formulated Operation "Zion," in order to prepare for its next act of aggression.

2. The U.S. & Israel colluded into maneuvering & provoking Egypt into closing the waterway.

3. The U.S. aided Israel in neutralizing Egypt's military capabilities, through intelligence gathering, reconnaissance of Egyptian troop deployments, Jamming Egyptian communications, and the United States' Sixth Fleet was positioned to defend Israel.

That implies that the U.S. & Israel had instituted prior preparations of the battle plan, and that these acts didn't occur on the spur of the moment.

4. The Israeli commander of the Southern Zone, admitted that Israel prepared Operation "Zion" after the 1956 war of aggression against Egypt, and that they had trained for it for 10 years.

5. Egypt did not put any significant effort into preparing troops nor equipment for war.

6. 70,000 Egyptian troops were sent to Yemen. Why send troops 2,600 nautical miles to the South, when your enemy is a few hundred miles away, to your East, and has attacked you before?

7. Egypt at the time, focused on the Southern axis (Yemen), and not the North (Israel).

8. The Egyptian troops who were sent to Yemen had experience in Guerrilla/Mountain Warfare, and were rushed into the Sinai with little training nor experience in Desert Warfare.

They had experience in confronting rebels & guerrillas, and not adequately trained to confront a highly-trained military, employing Western military doctrine.

9. There was no communication between the upper echelon of military commanders, nor between the military and their political masters. There was complete disarray in the government.

It is extremely hard to envision how they could have guided and managed any successful military operations.

[rav]

Zman, have you gotten to responding to my post? I would love to hear youe explanations because I have written a few pages of more questions I would have for any of the conspiracy theorists who believe Israel started the six day war but I do not want to overwhelm you when my first post was never answered.

Peace.

[Zman]

Zman, have you gotten to responding to my post? I would love to hear youe explanations because I have written a few pages of more questions I would have for any of the conspiracy theorists who believe Israel started the six day war but I do not want to overwhelm you when my first post was never answered.

Peace.

Peace rav,

I haven't forgotten about you, bro. Sorry for this extreme delay...

[thirdwatch512]

yes the population of jews in iran is going down now, but does that mean it cant go back up? 70,000 jews is not an extremly high number at all.

ahh, there's a baby boom going on amongst Jews (or so it seems.) it's been said that the Jewish population in New York is skyrocketting, because the Chassidic Jews have like 8 kids! it says that some neihborhoods are beginning to look like 18th century ghettos! lol

i can imagine that 1.the Jews in iran will move to Israel (hopefully) or 2. they will hopefully have more kids, and the population will increase!

[Zman]

I have written a few pages of more questions I would have for any of the conspiracy theorists who believe Israel started the six day war

Peace.

Peace rav,

Quick question, how is what I provided considered a "conspiracy theory," since many of the statements (issued by Israeli's and some generals), prove that Israel planned for the 67 war, 10 years in advance and that Israel provoked the Arabs in order to Justify attacking them?

[HBot 5000]

Off course it did! do they deny it? lol

They won (i use the term loosely) and started the illegal occupation :)

[rav]

Peace rav,

Quick question, how is what I provided considered a "conspiracy theory," since many of the statements (issued by Israeli's and some generals), prove that Israel planned for the 67 war, 10 years in advance and that Israel provoked the Arabs in order to Justify attacking them?

You have many statements, that is not the problem. The problem is that some of the statements by the generals are taken out of context, especially when translated into english, and sources can be found for things like we have a "flat earth" or "America plotted 9/11". It still remains a conspiracy theory. In no way I could believe your claim because Israel was literally "freaking out" about the Arab nations attacking. I doubt they would have ever wanted to start a war, and the signs and evidence proves my side, except for select articles with "testimony". The result is that every time Arab nations attacked Israel, they lost more land.

You may truly believe that Israel began the six day war, but I must disagree. The facts in reality speak for itself. The testimony, the paperwork of the Arab nations.

In May of 1967, Nasser expelled UN peacekeepers from the Sinai peninsula and announced a blockade of the Straits of Tiran to Israel-bound shipping. The blockade sealed off the major Israeli port of Eilat and violated the armistice agreements that had followed the 1956 Sinai war. It was regarded by most observers as a casus belli, i.e. an act of war.

On May 13, 1967, the Soviet Union relayed false information to Syria and Egypt that Israeli forces were massing on Syria's border. This prompted Syria and Egypt to activate their military pact and figured in Nasser's subsequent steps towards war. Syrian planes bombed northern Israel on June 5, the first day of the war. The following day, Syrian forces attacked the Israeli communities of Tel Dan, Kibbutz Shaar Yashuv and Ashmura but were repelled by Israeli forces. The Syrian air force unsuccessfully attempted to bomb oil refineries in Haifa. Israeli forces counter-attacked on July 9 and 10, driving the Syrians from the Golan Heights and bringing the Six Day War to a close.

[MTAFFI]

OK Sami you wanted a response to this rant that is equivalent to a 2 year screaming in a supermarket for a new toy, then here you go. (although it is hard to respond to a pointless and opinionated post that has not one ounce of fact, but since my logic is superior to yours I will entertain the invitation)

yes arab people did feel they restored their honor with the war of 73, they now felt they made up for the 6 day war defeat and that was that.

Then these people you speak of are as dumb as you are since they gained nothing, attacked like cowards on a holiday, and suffered heavy losses and the Egytians severed ties with their former soviet pals as a result. WOW their honor was really restored!! (do you even have a clue of what you are talking about?)

as for god being on their side in the 6 day war, so have christians and jews won EVERY war and battle they have been in? no they havent, so therefore if you lose one war ah yes this then means god is never on your side and is actually against you, wow i guess god pretty much hates the jews then according to your logic since he let hitler literally wipe the floor with them. not only that, i guess god must also really hate western nations since he let you kill hundred of thousands of each other combined during ww1 and ww2.

Now here is your pathetic and repulsive set of comments, allow me to refute them. BY your logic, then God hates every religion on Earth, because every religion has been defeated when it has gone to war throughout history at some time or another. Lets look at nations though, rather than religions, since most of the time it is a nation or empire that goes to war rather than an actual religion anymore. Take the US for example, we havent lost a war yet, God must love us, oh yeah and Israel hasnt lost either, God must really love them because they are surrounded by hate yet he allows them to exist. Oh now look at the Arab countries, Iraq, leader overthrown objective complete, Iraq is defeated, Afghan, overthrown, objective complete, Afghan is defeated, Syria defeated, Egypt defeated, Soviets defeated, etc. So who does God really hate according to you Sami? That is right Sami God hates the middle east, maybe that is why they are cursed to survive in an utter wasteland and their leaders be so corrupted by money that they crap on gold toilets while the people live in poverty....

Disclaimer: I do not actually believe that God played a role in the defeat of the nations. I believe they lost because a superior power to them allowed it to be that way

not only that i guess god has now changed sides because a 10000 israeli idf force couldnt beat a 2000 hezbollah force! the last war between the israelis and arabs was won by the arabs, all israel can boast about is destroying buildings and infastructure, but that means nothing as buildings and infastructure can be rebuilt, however so losing moral among your soldiers and getting generals resigning and even admiting the war wasnt won is a very hard thing to recover from.

Funny thing too, because I havent heard Hezbullcrap firing rockets into Israel since, I guess since they got their rearends blown out of holes they decided it would be better to stay out of Israels way, it seems their integrity must have been damaged along with the innocent civilians they put in harms way. As for a loss, I suppose that getting those two soldiers back was a loss, but who felt the worst of it, I can say it wasnt the Israelis, they have two soldiers missing, how many family members and hezbollah soldiers are missing now... It is easy to declare victory when you are a organization that no one knows your numbers, headquarters, etc. it is a completely cowardly way to fight

israel no longer feels that superiority they once had thanks to the lebanon war, this is why their looking for another war to heal their wounds and damaged morals, but too bad this aint the 40's and 50's and 60's no more because in todays present day israel has no chance of destroying and completly beating the arabs like before, unless they would use a nuke which would not only wipe us out, but themselves included hence lol we still win as we go to heaven and them to hell and israel is wiped of the map! :)

Really they dont have superiority huh? This is yet another dumb comment of yours since they still have their land and continue to take more as they feel necessary to drive the palestinian militants back. Also you will notice that the once arrogant arab nations surrounding them making no aggressive moves, because they know better now that they have had their tails wiped around the room. Israel has no need to nuke them as they have already established their SUPERIORITY to them. So their you go Sami, their are your rebuttals to your totally repulsive disgusting hate mongering post.


disclaimer: I have no problems with Arab countries or their people or any group of people for that matter. The purpose of this post was to respond the the ignorant and arrogant Sami and prove that his post is flawed and utterly stupid. If I offended anyone I apologize

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

Outing Israeli Crimes: June 1967
By Clare Brandabur
June 2007
Cosmos.UCC.IE

Body of Secrets: How America's NSA and Britain's GCHQ Eavesdrop on the World

James Bamford
London: Arrow Books,2002
ISBN 970099427742 (from Jan 2007) ISBN 0 09 942774 5

As we observe the fortieth anniversary of the Six-Day War of June 1967, there are few things to celebrate. One notable exception is the full exposure of the actual events of the Israeli aggression which have been carefully guarded secrets. In particular the frenzied attempts by the Israelis to sink the USS Liberty and kill its entire crew, attempts covered up at the time by order of the Johnson White House and covered up ever since by censorship and elaborate lies by Israeli and US authority figures.

Now, thanks to the remarkable book Body of Secrets by James Bamford, it is possible to learn not only what happened to the Liberty, but what it was Israel was so desperate to conceal from the eyes of the world, especially from the Russians and the Americans. What they were covering up, and what President Lyndon Johnson would help them continue to cover up, was war crimes and crimes against humanity, a continuation and intensification of the deliberate and calculated policy of the colonial settler state with respect to the indigenous people: genocide.

A good deal was already known about the genocidal practice of the Israelis in 1967 thanks to Arthur C. Forrest's The Unholy Land (1971). Forrest was sent by a consortium of North American church magazines to research rumors that the Israelis were not in fact allowing the refugees back into Palestine, in spite of their carefully staged claims to the contrary. Forrest quickly learned that refugees were still fleeing across the Allenby Bridge; that many had been attacked by Israeli planes using napalm; that the camp at Jericho which had held some 65,000 refugees from 1948, had been attacked and thousands driven across the River into Jordan by planes using machine gins and napalm; that survivors from the Jordanian Army said whole field hospitals had been napalmed. Of course Forrest was bitterly attacked for daring to criticize Israel, especially for revealing the truth about Israeli use of napalm against civilians and hospitals.


One of the horror stories being told in Amman was of the experiences of fleeing refugees being sprayed with napalm. At first I didn't believe it and shuddered at the thought of using some of the pictures of victims available in Jordan. 'If it were pictures of Vietnam you'd publish them wouldn't you?' a Palestinian said. (Forrest 16)

Forrest was shocked and dubious concerning these reports, so he went to visit survivors of these attacks in Jordanian hospitals. He spoke to Mr. Sami Oweida, the father of a family who had recently crossed the Bridge and whose surviving members were still being treated in hospital in Amman

We crossed the King Hussein [Allenby] Bridge, walking. Planes were going overhead [...] We tried to avoid big crowds, thinking the planes would bomb the crowds.

Then at that moment [about 4 PM] I saw a plane come down like a hawk directly at us. We threw ourselves on the ground and found ourselves in the midst of fire. (Forrest 17)
Forrest also quotes the report of General Sir John Glubb whose interpretation of the Middle East Crisis was published in July 1967 as follows:

The greater part of the Jordan army were destroyed by napalm [.] Glubb quotes from a signed statement by a team of doctors from the American University of Beirut.[...] 'A doctor reported that the Mobile Field Hospital, containing 350 patients, was incinerated with all its patients and staff by napalm,' Glubb says. (Forrest 16)
Forrest took photographs of some of the burned victims, one of which he later published in the United Church Observer, his Church paper in Canada, of a little girl recovering from napalm burns. "That, I was told, proved I was anti-Semitic. To condemn napalm in Vietnam is alright. To report its use by the Israelis is considered anti-Semitic" (Forrest 17).

When Forrest asked for permission to visit the three destroyed villages Yalu, Beit Nuba, and Emmaus, he was refused on grounds that "There isn't any Beit Nuba!" (15). Nevertheless Forrest managed to travel to the devastated area. From survivors whom he asked about the destruction of these villages in retribution for their resistance in 1948 he learned that Israeli bulldozers demolished houses over the heads of the elderly who perished in the rubble (15).

Now, thanks to James Bamford's outing of the secrets of the "Black Chamber" which housed the American NSA, (National Security Agency) and that of the British GCHQ, (Government Communications Headquarters), it is possible to reconstruct a more complete picture of the Israeli cover-up including its attack on the USS Liberty. The well planned war of 1967 was designed to take as much land as possible and to make it appear that the Arab armies had attacked Israel. This is the startling conclusion of a chapter in Bamford's, Body of Secrets (2002) which offers a more detailed explanation for the Israeli attack on the Liberty. Bamford provides a mass of detail about the "criminal slaughter" in which the Israelis were engaged at nearby Al-Arish (201).

From the first minutes of its surprise attack, the Israeli airforce had owned the skies over the Middle East. Within the first few hours, Israeli jets pounded twenty-five Arab air bases ranging from Damascus in Syria to an Egyptian field, loaded with bombers far up the Nile at Luxor. Then, using machine guns, mortar fire, tanks, and air power, the Israeli war machine overtook the Jordanian section of Jerusalem as well as the west bank of the Jordan River, and torpedo boats captured the key Red Sea cape at Sharm al-Sheikh.

In the Sinai, Israeli tanks and armored personnel carriers pushed toward the Suez Canal along all three of the roads that crossed the desert, turning the burning sands into a massive killing field. One Israeli general estimated that Egyptian casualties there ranged from 7,000 to 10,000 killed, compared with 275 of its own troops. (201)

Bamford documents the attack by Israeli tanks on a UN convoy of Indian peacekeeper soldiers on their way to Gaza, and the subsequent attack on a UN headquarters in Gaza in which fourteen UN members were killed. "One Indian officer called it deliberate, cold-blooded killing of unarmed UN soldiers" (201). Bamford then details the slaughter of hundreds of Egyptian prisoners of war who were made to dig their own graves and then machine-gunned (202-205). Body of Secrets provides the most detailed account I have seen of the USS Liberty attack, gleaned in part from recently unearthed material from the records of the National Security Agency, in part from interviews with all available Liberty survivors.

It was not in Israel's interest nor in US interest to have its aggression against Egypt, Syria, and Jordan revealed to the world. Early in the afternoon of June 8, 1967, Israeli jets and missile boats opened fire on the USS Liberty, an American surveillance ship operating off the coast of Gaza. Struck by rockets, cannons and torpedoes, the vessel suffered extensive damage and over 200 casualties including 34 dead. Israeli forces were then engaged in the fourth day of what would soon be called the Six Day War, and, as Bamford shows, the Liberty was hit repeatedly by waves of Israeli airforce fighters loaded with 30 mm cannon ammunition, rockets, and even napalm, then assaulted from the sea by torpedoes (200-201). Though Israel claimed the attack was a "tragic mistake," the incident has never been officially revealed to the public.

In spite of earlier exposés like that of Arthur Forrest and interviews with survivors of the USS Liberty, few people in the West even today know what Israel was doing. In subsequent investigations, however, it has emerged that those directly connected to the attack on the Liberty rejected Israeli claims the ship was attacked by accident. In his biography of President Lyndon Johnson, for example, Robert Dallek says "The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error" Dallek. 430-31). If Israeli intention was to cover up their criminal napalm attacks on Palestinian civilians in order to drive them out of Palestine, it seems to have been a success. What Israel was covering up, by trying to sink the USS Liberty was the crime of genocide.

Arthur Forrest's book and Bamford's meticulous documentation are consistent with other witnesses to Israel's use of napalm against civilians in 1967. Norman F. Dacey, who had been chairman of Volunteers for Nixon, whose open letter to then President Richard M. Nixon was published in Lebanese newspaper Al-Anwar, January 17, 1972. In it Dacey told Nixon that he would henceforth campaign for Nixon's defeat, citing his disgust with US policies in the Middle East. "I have walked through Egyptian hospitals and seen row on row of beds of little children, their bodies burned black by American-made napalm, dropped from American-built planes in claimed 'defense' of Israel" (Dacey qtd in Ashiurakis 1974).

Other readers will find other parts of Bamford's huge book (715 pages) important for what it has to reveal about US and UK intelligence roles in relation to Cuba, to Viet Nam, Germany, Russia, and China. But I think it is fitting on this fortieth anniversary of the Israeli Occupation of Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights, to concentrate attention on what the book has to teach us about the Israeli assault of 1967 which, as the commentators are saying, changed the shape of the Middle East. The Palestinian refugees are more numerous and in some ways more desperate than before, as witness the conflagration that threatens to spread in Northern Lebanon, and the Israeli and American leadership remains just as intransigent as ever about the right of return of the refugees, though it was by their false promise to allow them to return that Israel gained acceptance in the United Nations.

But why, you might ask, would events of 1967 be relevant today? And why, therefore, are Bamford's revelations so critical? Because the same program of ethnic cleansing and progressive land confiscation is still proceeding apace, and this program is at the heart of all the other major conflicts in the region, most recently the tragic waste of the US/UK invasion of Iraq which was fueled by Israeli expansionism.

In addition to its ongoing murders of Palestinians (such as the massacre of Jenin refugee camp in 2002) and the present campaign of assassination and wholesale killing in Gaza, Israel also continues its genocidal plans for the destruction of Palestinian cultural institutions. In Imperial Israel and the Palestinians (2002), Nur Masalha documents recent Israeli plans for the destruction of Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock, the two great mosques on the Haram al-Sharif in Jerusalem (122-23), and for the "final solution" to the Palestinian problem which they hope to put into practice with the help of their American accomplices-a plan of "transfer" for which they foresaw the destruction of Iraq as a necessary step. Masalha quotes Meier Lipschitz, an Israeli developer of Jewish-only housing, as saying



A war against Iraq is a real (religious) duty. If it is possible to make provocation, we must carry this out immediately. Such a golden opportunity in a convenient international situation falls into our hand once every hundred years... No one will busy himself with the triviality of transfer which we will carry out in parallel at the same time... Who exactly will be interested in the fate of two million Palestinians, who supported the butcher of Baghdad and are settled on the lands of the little king (King Hussein)? (184)

Masalha says the gist of this argument is that war against Iraq should be provoked if only so it could be utilized for the forcible mass expulsion of the Palestinians"(185).

James Bamford's book has a great deal more to teach us about US and UK secrets, the Cold War, and the Great Game. But on this anniversary of the second Nakbah, I hope I may be forgiven for foregrounding what Body of Secrets has to teach us about the true character of Israel as a colonial settler state which is inherently genocidal.

Selected Bibliography

Ashiurakis, Ahmed M.. The Crime in Palestine. Tripoli, Libya: Dar Al-Farjani, 1974.

Bahour, Sam. "Israel Spinning Out of Control." (Chris McGreal? The Guardian (UK) 24 November 2004.

Bamford, James. Body of Secrets: How America's NSA and Britain's GCHO Eavesdrop on the World. London: Arrow Books/Random House, 2002.

Brandabur, A. Clare. "A Reply To Amos Kennan: 'The Legacy of Lydda': An Interview with George Habash." http://www.corkpsc.org/db.php?aid=59775

Carlson, Charles. "Christian Zionism and The Scofield Reference Bible." 2006. www.whtt.org .

Carlson, Charles."How Zionists Changed Biblical Interpretations Using Scofield & Oxford U. http://blogs.albawaba.com/Alexanderj...onists_changed

Churchill, Ward. A Little Matter of Genocide: Holocaust and Denial in the Americas - 1492 to the Present. San Francisco: City Lights Books, 1997.

Cook, Jonathan. Blood and Religion: The Unmasking of the Jewish and Democratic State. London & Ann Arbor: Pluto Press. 2006.

Dacey, Norman F. "Open Letter to President Nixon." in The Crime in Palestine. By Ahmed M. Ashiurakis. Tripoli, Libya: Dar Al-Farjani, 1974.

Finkelstein, Norman G. Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History. Berkeley: University of California Press, 2005.

Forrest, Arthur C. The Unholy Land. Toronto: McClelland & Stewart Limited, 1971-1972.

Khoury, Elias. Gate of the Sun. [Bab al-Shams]. Tr Humphrey Davies. Brooklyn, NY, Archipelago Books, 2005.

Lemkin, Raphael. "Totally Unofficial Man". Pioneers of Genocide Studies. Eds. Samuel Totten and Steven Leonard Jacobs. New Brunswick, USA & London: Transaction Publishers, 2002.

Lemkin, Raphael. Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Laws of Occupation, Analysis of Government Proposals for Redress. Washington DC: Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 1944.

Lindqvist, Sven. 'Exterminate All the Brutes.' Translated from the Swedish by Joan Tate. London: Books, 2002.

Masalha, Nur. Imperial Israel and the Palestinians: The Politics of Expansion. London: Pluto Press, 2000.

Merriman, Rima. "Denial of Entry: Rice's Probe and the Israeli Administration." Electronic Intifada, October 17, 2006.

Morris, Benny. The Origins of the Palestine Refugee Problem 1947-1949. Cambridge 1989.
Moyers, Bill. "There Is No Tomorrow"
http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/...04/1206-10.htm . Sept.02.2005.

Pappé, Ilan. "Genocide in Gaza." http://www.electronicintifada.net/v2/article5656.shtml

Patience, Martin. "Palestinians back prisoners release call." BBC News: Tuesday June 2006. UK. BBC Website Ramallah.

Prior, Rev. Michael. The Bible and Colonialism: A Moral Critique. Sheffield, UK: Sheffield Academic Press Ltd. 1997.

Prior, Rev. Michael, ed. Western Scholarship and The History of Palestine. London: Melisende, 1998.

Rodinson, Maxime. Israel: Colonial Settler State? New York: Pathfinder, 1993.

Roy, Sara. "The Gaza Economy." Published by The Palestine Information Center Brief #143, 2, Oct. 2006.

Roy, Sara. "Living With the Holocaust." The Journey of a Child of Holocaust Survivors Journal of Palestine Studies Vol XXXII, No. 1, Autumn 2002, Issue 125 ( http://www.ipsips.org/jps/125/roy.html )

Said, Edward W. The Politics of Dispossession: The Struggle for Palestinian Self-Determination 1969-1994. New York: Random House, 1995.

Said, Edward W. The Question of Palestine. New York: Vintage Random House, 1992.

Said, Edward W. "How to Answer Palestine's Challenge." Mother Jones (September 1988), 13(7):16-18.

Salbuchi, Adrian. "Historical Lies As An Instrument of Domination." Published on the Internet by the Israel Shamir List. Oct. 19, 2006. Translated from the Spanish "La Falsificacion de la Historia como Instrumento de Domino." http://www.eltraductorradial@fibertel.com.ar/

Salmon, Christian. "The Bulldozer War." tr. Luke Sanford. Le Monde Diplomatique, Reprinted in Counterpunch. http://www.counterpunch.org/salmon0520.html

Source:
http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/...le0064965.html

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

1967: A Personal Testimony
By Uri Avnery
(Wednesday, June 20, 2007)
USA.MediaMonitors

"...faced with Syria's request for help and the Soviet stories about the massing of Israeli troops, Nasser saw an opportunity to assert his leadership of the Arab world. He sent his troops into Sinai.

If he had really intended to start a war, he would have done this as secretly as possible. But his troops passed Cairo in broad daylight, proof that the aim was to show off."

On May 25, 1967, twelve days before the Six-day war, I published in Haolam Hazeh, the news magazine of which I was the editor, an article entitled "Nasser Has Fallen Into a Trap"...
A few months earlier, I was invited to give a lecture in a kibbutz in the North. After the lecture I was invited to coffee with a few members. There, my host told me in confidence that the Chief of the Northern Command, General David ("Dado") Elazar, had been there only a week before.

In the same room, Dado had confided in the same few trusted members: "Every night, before going to sleep, I pray that Nasser concentrates his troops in the Sinai desert. There we shall annihilate them." When Nasser concentrated his troops in Sinai In the middle of May 1967, it seemed like an answer to this prayer. So, while everybody around me was numb with fright, I was not worried.

... Gamal Abd-al-Nasser himself - who in reality was deadly afraid of an Israeli attack and did not dream of attacking - thought that by threatening to throw Israel into the sea he would frighten us into abandoning any idea of war. It had, of course, the opposite effect. The chain of events that made the war inevitable resembled in some respects the lead-up to World War I, "the war that nobody wanted".

Syria sponsored the Palestinian guerilla war started by Yasser Arafat on its border. Israel responded with dire threats. The chief of Staff, Yitzhak Rabin, publicly threatened to occupy Damascus and overthrow the regime. The Syrians got frightened and called on Egypt for assistance.

Just before the start of the crisis, the Soviet ambassador, Chubakhin, asked me to come and visit him at his embassy in Ramat Gan. He told me that Israel was planning to attack Syria and was already massing troops on the border.

He saw this as a part of a broader US scheme to install pro-American regimes all over the area, starting with the recent coup d'etat of the colonels in Greece (April 1967) and American machinations in Iran...

...The story about Israel "massing troops on the border" was, of course, ridiculous. A Soviet general may believe that before starting an offensive, troops must be massed on the frontier. But in the tiny territory of Israel, "massing" troops was both impossible and superfluous.

Anyhow, faced with Syria's request for help and the Soviet stories about the massing of Israeli troops, Nasser saw an opportunity to assert his leadership of the Arab world. He sent his troops into Sinai.

If he had really intended to start a war, he would have done this as secretly as possible. But his troops passed Cairo in broad daylight, proof that the aim was to show off.
...On May 23, Nasser announced (falsely) that he had mined the sea approaches to Eilat. That was for Israel a casus belli. Eilat was Israel's gateway to the eastern world, free passage there had an emotional importance far beyond its actual value.

I remember coming back from the Knesset that day, and telling my colleagues on the New Force Party's executive board: "War is now inevitable." I added: "This war will change everything."

To dramatize these steps, Nasser asked the UN Secretary General, U Thant, to withdraw UN forces - but only from a certain sector. (These forces had been stationed on the border since the 1956 Sinai war).

Misreading the situation completely, U Thant withdrew all his troops.
Faced now with the possibility of an Israeli preventive attack, and believing his own propaganda that Israel was but an American puppet, Nasser sent his deputy to the US to get the Americans to stop Israel.On the first day of the war, after an emergency parliamentary session, I was in the Knesset bomb shelter sitting out shelling by Jordanian artillery in East Jerusalem, when a friend whispered in my ear: "We have already won the war. The Air Force has destroyed the Egyptian airplanes on the ground".

This information was withheld from the public.

All reports of the incredible victories of our army were suppressed by the censor, because the government was afraid that if they became public, the UN would impose a cease-fire - which now just seemed obstructive.
On the fifth day of the war, just after our army had conquered the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, I wrote an open letter to Levy Eshkol, proposing that he seize the historic opportunity and offer the Palestinian people the chance to establish a state of their own. I had advocated this idea since 1949, but I was convinced that this moment, with the whole region in a state of shock, was the right time to make peace with the Palestinians by making them an historic offer.

Right after the war, Eshkol invited me to a private talk. He listened patiently while I explained this idea. "Uri, what kind of a trader are you?" he said with a benign smile,

"In negotiations, one starts by offering the minimum and demanding the maximum. Then, gradually, one raises the offer until a compromise is achieved somewhere in the middle. What you propose is to offer everything even before negotiations have started."

"That is true when one sells a horse," I answered, "not when one wants to achieve a historic peace."

...In the following months and years, I made dozens of speeches in the Knesset (in addition to my articles in "Haolam Hazeh") advocating the idea of a Palestinian state in the newly occupied territories. In one of my speeches I reported that I had spoken with all the prominent leaders in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, including those who were known as "supporters of Jordan", and that all of them had told me that they preferred a Palestinian state to the restoration of Jordanian rule.

Both Dayan and Eshkol denied that, but Eshkol sent his advisor for the occupied territories, Moshe Sassoon, to ask me in private about my information. On August 13, 1969, Sassoon wrote a report to the Prime Minister (with a copy to me), in which he confirmed that his own information was identical with mine.

...In public opinion polls, support for the idea of a Palestinian state next to Israel reached an astonishing 37%. That phase passed quickly.

The US, which, on the eve of the war, had secretly informed our government that it would not object to an Israeli attack, now did nothing to compel Israel to withdraw.

Gradually, the Israeli leadership became aware of a total absence of international pressure to return anything. ...Teams of people from the Kibbutz movement were already swarming over the West Bank looking for favorable locations. They found them in the Jordan valley - flat, suitable for tractors and watered by the river.

Immediately after the war, huge numbers of refugees from the 1948 war had been driven out of the Jericho refugee camps near the river. The settlement drive, which was to change the map completely, was on its way.
Almost automatically, actions of ethnic cleansing were carried out.

It was never ascertained who had given the orders. Clearly, they were transmitted orally. Over all of them hovered the spirit of Moshe Dayan. Immediately after the fighting, the writer Amos Kenan came to me. He was in a state of shock, and told me he had just witnessed the expulsion of thousands of inhabitants from three villages in the Latrun area.

I asked him to sit down and write a report of what he had seen. It was a revolting document.

I immediately drove to the village Imwass (perhaps the Biblical Emmaeus) and saw bulldozers leveling house after house. When I tried to take pictures, soldiers drove me away.
... he work was finished before anybody could intervene. Today, the "Canada Park" covers the site.

At that time, everybody still believed that Israel would be pressured to return the territories it had conquered. The Latrun villages were a kind of bulge in the Green Line, dominating the main road between Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem.

For that reason, somebody decided to create a fait accompli that would remove the pressure to return this area..

...Dayan declared that we had no intention of conquest... A day after the fighting was over, it had become a war of expansion and annexation.

...The Eshkol government, which had first officially decided to negotiate the return of the Territories, forgot about this when it realized that there was no need to.
In an article soon after, I told a story about how to capture monkeys. One attaches a bottle to the branch of a tree and puts a fruit into it. The monkey puts his hand into the bottle, takes hold of the fruit and tries to pull it out, but his fist enclosing the fruit is much too big. Thus he is captured. He could, of course, get free any moment by letting go of the fruit, but, craving for the fruit, is unable to do so. In the same way, holding on to the occupied territories, we were hostages of our own greed.

After the war, Professor Yeshayahu (Isaiah) Leibowitz, an orthodox Jew, foresaw that the occupation would corrupt us and turn us into a people of "secret service agents and managers of foreign labor".In retrospect, it looked as if the whole scenario was the work of a talented director - the anxiety, the crescendo of fear, the miraculous victory. This helps to explain what happened later on.

In the Faust legend, Mephistopheles pays for the soul of the learned doctor with every imaginable kind of pleasure. Something like that happened to us in June, 1967. The chain of events directed by a superior being, a temptation deliberately put in front of us in order to test us. What looked like a gift from God was actually a temptation from Satan, an attempt to buy our soul.

Did he succeed? Did Israel lose its soul?
-----------------------------------------

Parts of this article were published in the American-Jewish magazine Tikkun.

Source: By courtesy & © 2007 Uri Avnery

Source:
http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/44391

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

UN Golan Commander "Worried By Israel's Actions

Major-General Wolfgang Jilke, commander of force observing ceasefire between Israel and Syria, expresses concern over rising tensions, but points finger mainly at Israel for breaking routine in area and acting intensively
By Gil Yaron
Published: 07.11.07, 14:08 / Israel News
Ynet

Major-General Wolfgang Jilke... commands the United Nations Disengagement Observer Force, comprised of 1,300 troops who were charged with maintaining the ceasefire between Israel and Syria on the Golan Heights since 1974.

The UN troops observe the two countries' lineup of forces on a 50-kilometer (31.05-mile) wide strip – 25 kilometers (15.525 miles) east and west of the Yom Kippur War's ceasefire line.

Jilke was appointed to the role on February 2007.

...Contrary to the Israeli view, which regards Syria as a strategic threat, Jilke says that actually Israel bears the brunt of the responsibility for causing the current tensions.
"The tensions on the Golan Heights have not been so high in years. I am worried," he says.

According to him, the Syrians have not stationed any special forces in the area next to the border that would be capable of launching a surprise attacking against Israel.

"On the Syrian side I do not notice any unusual preparations," he says.

"On the Israeli side, however, we see intensive activity… Israel's right to defend itself is self-understood, but its current activities do not contribute to the efforts to diminish the tensions in the region… The actions on Israel's side are not very helpful when it comes to calming the Syrians down."

"We must remember that the antitank and antiaircraft missiles Syria is purchasing are not offensive weapons. Syria is renewing its weapon inventory like any other army in the world. I do not view this as something unusual," he says.

In light of the balance of power, Jilke estimates that "the chances the Syrians will surprise Israel are very low, and in any case, the Israelis have prepared and positioned themselves in a way that guarantees their advantage and deny the Syrians any gains."

UNDOF sources, who likened the Golan to a "crowded military camp", told Ynet of the poor state of Syrian forces. "Their trucks barely work, their tanks are rusty," sources said.

"In Syria, you see three soldiers with one shovel trying to prepare trenches in the hard rocks of the Heights. On the Israeli side, we see bulldozers massively altering the terrain," they explain.

...Jilke claims that since March, Israel has changed the rules.
The "Alpha Line" limits the deployment of IDF soldiers to the east. West of the line, the IDF has erected a security fence and a patrol road.

In some areas, the fence is several hundred meters away from the Alpha Line. Through the years, Syrian shepherds and farmers have begun to use the land, which technically is under control of the army, even though IDF soldiers did not use to venture east of the fence.

Since March, however, Israeli troops renewed their patrol between the fence and the "Alpha line", blocking access to Syrian farmers who had worked the land until then. On three occasions, IDF soldiers arrested and questioned Syrian citizens for several hours.

According to Jilke, the situation at the border could potentially erupt.

"I'm worried. In light of the tense atmosphere that has been created here, a little incident could ignite a bushfire in an instant," he says.

...Despite the image of Syria as a warmonger, Jilke said the local residents and the soldiers posted in the area wanted calm.

"When you ask a young Syrian soldier what he thinks of Israel, he won't tell you that he wants to fight in order to return the Golan to his homeland. Quite the opposite; he will say that he is very curious and would like to visit Jerusalem and Tel Aviv as a tourist, to see how people live here.

"This came as no surprise to the seasoned general: "The deeper you delve into the region's history, you learn that people of all origins usually got along much better with each other than their governments," he concludes.

Source:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7...424180,00.html

[wilberhum]

I just can't wait for the next copy/past justification for hate. :confused:

[Keltoi]

If only as much effort was spent reading worthwhile sources and historical descriptions as was spent clicking the "copy" button on the mouse, this world would be a much better place.

[queefer]

... one of the legacies of this war was the general belief in Nasser’s assertion that the US and British troops participated. I have not been able to source any evidence that Nasser’s assertion was true. However, it is apparently taught as fact in textbooks in Middle Eastern states. . .

Of course the 'Great Satan' had to be dragged into it. Do you know why you couldn't 'source' that ? BECAUSE IT'S NOT TRUE !!! And after reading Saudi and Syrian text books, I wouldn't be shocked to find they say the U.S. created Satan. Look on 'Memritv.org' and see some of the stuff that goes on over there.

[don532]

http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/crucial_quotes.pdf

Here's a web address with some quotes from that time period. The Arab nations around Israel at that time were spoiling for a fight and made no secret about it.

[KAding]

Well, I think Israeli policy is not to trust too much on cease-fires, it never seemed very good at respecting them. Israel often provoked border clashes with Egypt and Jordan for example. However, this stopped as soon as a comprehensive peace was signed.

These "cease fires until we are strong enough to destroy Israel" ideas that are popular now within Hamas and by some on this board is not something Israel will be stupid enough to fall for IMHO.

[root]

Oh no, we got out butt's kicked and key allies lied to us.

Oh well, let's just blame the jews. :D

[MTAFFI]

Arabs definitely have a real problem with losing

[wilberhum]

Arabs definitely have a real problem with losing

Give then enough time, they will get use to it. :D

[Zman]

:sl:

We couldn't have won our independence in 1948, if it weren't for the protection of the British & French Air Forces.

We couldn't have attacked (alone) Egypt in 1956, without British and French participation (thanks guys for helping us out, twice).

We got our asses kicked in 1973, and ran to America for help.

We got our collective asses kicked by Hizbullah and were evicted from Lebanon (part-1)

We got our collective asses kicked by Hizbullah again (part-2).

We invaded Gaza numerous times and failed to crush Hamas.

[Amadeus85]

I am not expert about thaat conflict, i have never been there. But i think that this conflict wont stop until both sides feel devastated enough. I dont think that it will happen in my life yet.

[MTAFFI]

:sl:
[i]
We couldn't have won our independence in 1948, if it weren't for the protection of the British & French Air Forces.

Can you prove their involvement, I believe Rav has proved you wrong with this before

We couldn't have attacked (alone) Egypt in 1956, without British and French participation (thanks guys for helping us out, twice).

Again I will say I think that Rav proved you wrong with this

We got our asses kicked in 1973, and ran to America for help.

Actually if you look back at the Yom Kippur war you will notice that the Arab states only advanced for 6 days, after which they lost everything they took, including men and Israel was only stopped by the UN resolution. The Arabs lost that war on every account

We got our collective asses kicked by Hizbullah and were evicted from Lebanon (part-1)

I would love to see the logic behind this
Lebanon lost land, nearly 20000 people, the PLO was successfully removed, Syria air force was severely damaged, Israel took Shebaa Farms, among other things.

We got our collective asses kicked by Hizbullah again (part-2).

I think that is a matter of opinion, on one hand hezbullah never gave over the Israeli troops, on the other hand many many many more lives and much infrastructure was destroyed for it, not to mention Israels border is more secure and free from attacks than it was before hand



Are you even suggesting that Israel could not pull an all out offensive and simply take Gaza? I think you would be wrong

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Well Israel have got America on there side so there is nothing we can do exept hope.

[wilberhum]

Well Israel have got America on there side so there is nothing we can do exept hope.

I assume hope for peace. Right?

[Bittersteel]

Arabs provoked the war.Israel just made the first strike.
troop build-up near the borders and constant artillery fire on the part of the Arabs led to the war.

[Zman]

Can you prove their involvement, I believe Rav has proved you wrong with this before

I already posted the video of Leah Rabin (on another thread, you can conduct a search for it) being interviewed and she stated that the British & French Air Forces aided Israel in 1948.

As for rav "proving" me wrong, all he did was post Arab quotes. I countered by posting quotes by Israeli professors & Generals stating that Israel was preparing for the 1967 War immediately after the Tripple Agression of 1956.

They also stated that Israel carried out many provocative acts in order to bait the Arabs into over-reacting, that way Israel can claim to be the "victim, again," and attack in order to "defend" itself.

(The Arabs should have seized those Israeli provocations and actually attack her, since her acts can be classified as acts of war. If Israel can use that excuse, the Arabs have every right to use it also).

[Cognescenti]

I already posted the video of Leah Rabin (on another thread, you can conduct a search for it) being interviewed and she stated that the British & French Air Forces aided Israel in 1948.

As for rav "proving" me wrong, all he did was post Arab quotes. I countered by posting quotes by Israeli professors & Generals stating that Israel was preparing for the 1967 War immediately after the Tripple Agression of 1956.

They also stated that Israel carried out many provocative acts in order to bait the Arabs into over-reacting, that way Israel can claim to be the "victim, again," and attack in order to "defend" itself.

(The Arabs should have seized those Israeli provocations and actually attack her, since her acts can be classified as acts of war. If Israel can use that excuse, the Arabs have every right to use it also).

Leah Rabin was 20 years old in 1948. She is a known peacenik. Are you trying to tell us a 20 year old woman was "Israeli Air Force" liason with the RAF? :D

You have asked in this thread if Israeli warplanes refueled on US carriers or via midflight in-air refueling in 1967? That is just preposterous. You do realize an airplane has to be especially equipped to land on a carrier or refuel in midair don't you? It is a ridiculous hoax made up by Nasser to cover up the embarassment of having most of his air force destroyed in 15 minutes. Cairo is only about 150 miles from the Negev That is easily within range of the Mirage jets Israel had in 1967. The defeat of the Arab states in 1967 has to be the most embarssing military defeat in modern history. I don't blame you for casting about for external explanations.

You might look into the rayguns from space hypothesis. I hear NASA has been covering that up too.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

I only hope for peace but it is going to be very hard while Israel exists.

[wilberhum]

I only hope for peace but it is going to be very hard while Israel exists.

It will also be a vary hard while Hamas exists.
But I too hope for peace.

[MTAFFI]

I already posted the video of Leah Rabin (on another thread, you can conduct a search for it) being interviewed and she stated that the British & French Air Forces aided Israel in 1948.

As for rav "proving" me wrong, all he did was post Arab quotes. I countered by posting quotes by Israeli professors & Generals stating that Israel was preparing for the 1967 War immediately after the Tripple Agression of 1956.

They also stated that Israel carried out many provocative acts in order to bait the Arabs into over-reacting, that way Israel can claim to be the "victim, again," and attack in order to "defend" itself.

(The Arabs should have seized those Israeli provocations and actually attack her, since her acts can be classified as acts of war. If Israel can use that excuse, the Arabs have every right to use it also).

I apologize it was grenville on page 2 of this thread that really put that theory to rest with the documented flight patterns and distances. The US and the british didnt have involvement, as Cognescenti stated, it was a miserable failure for the Arabs and they will lie and propagate until they are dead.

To your miserable accusation of Israel provoking the surround Arab states, that is nothing but bologna, why would they even need to "provoke" them? Their mere existance was provocation enough, as history proves it to be. Some of the neighboring countries are still looking for a way, and even countries that are not neighboring are, now they just do it indirectly that way their sorry asses dont have to take responsibility for it and get their butts whipped again.

Bottom line, Israel won that war and every war since that has involved its borders and right to exist. It has been over 40 years, time to let it go, they are the victors and they will exist as long as God wishes for it to exist, but if you can take anything from history you will see that Israel will not be taken back by Arabs.

[Zman]

...To your miserable accusation of Israel provoking the surround Arab states,...

Actually, it isn't my accusation. It's been proven with quotes obtained from Israeli Professors & Generals.

But, it's ok. I forgive you. I know that the truth for you is hard to swollow, and you're Just in denial...

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Shut up saying Hamas exists is bad if Hamas didnt exist Palestine woudnt have a chance of being a independent state but Hamas have placed a lot of pressure on Israel to give Palestine a independent state long live HAMAS.

[Keltoi]

Shut up saying Hamas exists is bad if Hamas didnt exist Palestine woudnt have a chance of being a independent state but Hamas have placed a lot of pressure on Israel to give Palestine a independent state long live HAMAS.

The reality is the opposite of what you put forth. Hamas has lessened the chances of a Palestinian state, not increased it. Fatah, while corrupt and problamatic, at least had enough credibility, i.e., Abbas, to negotiate with Israel about the future. Hamas, while technically having a political arm, is still primarily a terrorist/paramilitary organization. Perhaps if the political wing of Hamas can demonstrate its capability of providing stability, then Israel will have a viable negotiating partner.

[wilberhum]

Shut up saying Hamas exists is bad if Hamas didnt exist Palestine woudnt have a chance of being a independent state but Hamas have placed a lot of pressure on Israel to give Palestine a independent state long live HAMAS.

Do you have any connection with reality? :rolleyes:
An indepandant state would have little international recognation as long as a prime objective of that state would be the distruction of another state.:?

[InToTheRain]

Do you have any connection with reality? :rolleyes:
An indepandant state would have little international recognation as long as a prime objective of that state would be the distruction of another state.:?

Well it's certainly working for Israel! they are getting all the recognition they need and they have been collectively punishing and ethnically cleansing the Palestinians for some time now. For failing to realise this you are in no position to question someone's judgement of reality.



FYI Independent* Recognition*

[Musaafirah]

To this day, the erroneous assertion of US and UK participation is taught to Egyptian school children at school by their teachers and text books.

Just wondring, have you ever been to a school in Egypt to see what they are being taught?

[wilberhum]

For failing to realise this you are in no position to question someone's judgement of reality.

Where is the KKK conection?
It is not there. You know it is not there.
What do you call people who knowingly make false statements?
I was trying to be kind when I said "Do you have any connection with reality?"

Israel "ethnically cleansing the Palestinians"? Sure they are.
Every time rockets are lonched at Israel, Israel does some more "ethnically cleansing".

[InToTheRain]

Where is the KKK conection?
It is not there. You know it is not there.".

Read the relevant thread.

What do you call people who knowingly make false statements?
I was trying to be kind when I said "Do you have any connection with reality?"

O really billy boy? :D

You gonna be sleeping with the fishes tonight? :Evil:
Maybe too late already considering your avatar HAHAHA

[wilberhum]

Read the relevant thread.



O really billy boy? :D

You gonna be sleeping with the fishes tonight? :Evil:
Maybe too late already considering your avatar HAHAHA

Don't you ever "Billy Boy" me again. :Evil:
It's "Willy Boy".:D :D :D :smile:

[InToTheRain]

"Willy Boy".:D :D :D :smile:

Ok this is a good example of things that shouldn't be share in public...or private for that matter LOL :D

[MTAFFI]

Actually, it isn't my accusation. It's been proven with quotes obtained from Israeli Professors & Generals.

But, it's ok. I forgive you. I know that the truth for you is hard to swollow, and you're Just in denial...

It is no more than an accusation, you cite a handful of "professors and generals" who more than likely have a bias against Israel for whatever reason. This hardly makes these accusations proof or fact. The Arab states said everything short of declaring war, they gathered their troops, battle ready, at the border of Israel, what were they expecting? I dont know but I can tell you what they werent expecting, getting the sand blown out from underneath them. What a humiliating defeat that was and then to come back again, attack on a religious holiday, only to suffer yet another defeat.... Gosh I can see why they choose to rewrite history in text books for their children, I wouldnt want a whole nation of youngsters to think my country was a bunch of losers either.

As far as me being in denial, I think you have it backwards my friend. You are the one who is trying to go back 40+ years to try to make a case that Israel provoked the war with the Arabs, not me, by the way why would Israel need to provoke the Arabs? Is their existence not good enough? Anyways, just to let you know (no offense to any Jews or Israelis) I dont really care about Israel, I appreciate their intelligence and contributions to my country, but the countries name being on the map, I gotta say I dont care, I wouldnt care if they won or lost their war to me it is just people and land and has a zero effect on my life. With that said, there is no dispute that Israel has conquered its land and the land is and will be theirs for a long time to come, can you dispute that? If not then who is having a hard time swallowing here?

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Good point but if Israel gives Palestine a independent state do you actually think Hamas will want to destruct Israel Hamas is only saying this to give Palestine a independent state.

[MTAFFI]

Good point but if Israel gives Palestine a independent state do you actually think Hamas will want to destruct Israel Hamas is only saying this to give Palestine a independent state.

Hamas is too blunt about things, they actually stated that they would like a 10 year peace deal so they could build up their military and infrastructure only to come back and fight Israel again, it is a good plan but you dont tell your enemy, " Hey give me a break for a minute so I can regroup and then come back and take your land and kill your people", it just wasnt a very strategical statement and because of it, Israel will not recognize Hamas and they will fight Hamas until they are all dead or recognize Israel. Sad really