Indonesia: Another Christian Church Attacked In Bandung

[Amadeus85]

I bet those mosques and churches are in Muslim countries. I hear some neocons and christian fundamentalists often claim that christians are being tortured and forced to convert and what not. Christians have more religious freedom there than muslims have in non-muslim countries. Maybe becuase its the same race just different religions?

INDONESIA: ANOTHER CHRISTIAN CHURCH ATTACKED IN BANDUNG








Bandung, 4 June (AKI/Jakarta Post) - After yet another attack against a Christian church in Indonesia this week in Bandung, West Java, UK human rights movement Christian Solidarity Worldwide's (CSW) research showing West Java is the launching pad for Indonesia's anti-Christian movement has once again been confirmed. In light of the growing number of attacks on Christian churches in West Java, CSW recently warned Indonesia that international concern was on the rise.

In the most recent attack, dozens of unidentified people Sunday broke into Sidang Jemaat Allah church at Gading Tutuka complex in Soreang, Bandung forcing church-goers, including 15 children, to stop their religious activities, which they have conducted weekly since 2000.

The attackers allegedly forced their way into the church at 9.30am Sunday, hit the Reverend's wife over the head with a bible and forced the children's Sunday School activity to stop.

Church-goer Lidia said the attackers claimed they were from the Anti-apostate Movement Alliance (AGAP).

Sunday's incident shows the suppression of religious freedom in this predominantly Muslim nation continues in West Java, where dozens of churches and places of worship have been forcibly closed by Muslim extremists over the past few months.

The number of churches forcibly closed in West Java alone since September 2004 is reported to be more than 30.

Dozens of other churches have been also forced to close in other provinces.

Under the revised joint decree issued by Religious Affairs Minister Maftuh Basyuni, the establishment of a house of worship must gain the approval of at least 60 local residents and have a minimum of 90 followers.

Shouting Allahu Akbar (God is Great), the attackers forced their way into the church and destroyed at least four glass pictures of Jesus Christ.

"They knocked on the church door, damaged it and forced themselves into to our school room," Lidia said.

"They said (Sunday School) was an act of apostate."

After picking up a bible in the church, one of the attackers hit Reverend Robby Elisa's wife, Moni over the head, Lidia said.

Ani, another church-goer, said the Sunday attack was the second to have taken place at the church where the attackers demanded the church be closed.

Last time the attackers said the church was not equipped with the necessary licenses, Ani said.

Church-goers however received permission from local neighborhood communities more than seven years ago to hold their religious activities, she said.

At the time of the first attack, a new head of the local neighborhood community questioned the existence of the church and later demanded the church be closed.

But Ani said, "We are here to serve our church followers because it's impossible for us to go into town to attend church activities -- transportation costs are very high".

Rev. Robby Elisa was away at the time of the attack and AGAP representatives have denied any involvement.

Moni was until Sunday evening questioned about her attack by the Katapang police station.

Muhammad Mukmin, head of AGAP, denied his group was behind the attack.

"In the case of any attack, we usually inform in advance," Mukmim said. "I was at home the whole day because I had attended the funeral of my father and we were still discussing the distribution of the heritage (of the family)."

Hedi Muhammad from the Anti-Apostate Division of the Islamic Ulema Forum (FUUI), an organization in support of AGAP, also denied any involvement in the attack.

"Usually when there is a kind of mass movement, we have coordination," Hedi said.

"We don't know at all from which groups they (the attackers) come from."



http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_En...21255208&par=0

[- Qatada -]

[In the Context of War:]


The Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:


“Do not kill any old person, any child, or any woman.” [Abu Dawud]

“Do not kill the monks in monasteries,” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship.” [Musnad Ahmad]

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well. (Sunan Abu Dawud , Book 14, Number 2608)


It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children.

[Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4320]

[Umar001]

Force does not create faith, please correct me if I am wrong.
Force can keep faith once its there and can protect it sometimes.

So if there's no faith why use force? First create faith then you can work on keeping it and protecting it. The actions of going into churches pouding people on the head only stop faith from being created.

Sure the children are being intoxicated, and I know how it feels, my fitrah was abused too you know, but it doesnt mean we go all guns blazing, we should do what is best, and if someone pounded your mum with a quran do you think you'd follow their religion?

[Keltoi]

Nothing is as bad as this....

http://www.christiantoday.com/articl...eaded/4397.htm

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[Sami Zaatari]

im with talha on this, i dont even feel bad, england posted a link showing a mosque being attacked in england, therefore all is fair, tough luck if they dont like it, perhaps they should stop attacking mosques if they want sympathy when their church gets attacked. what a load of *censored* they attack mosques frequently in the west, now the same happens to a church and were supposed to act all angry? i aint trying to sound mean, but i believe more of this should happen, we need to stop being people who they think they can just push over, you burn a mosque in england, well then expect your church to go down in indonesia! and i am not advocating! im just saying it like it is, if they attack mosques, church becomes fair game dont you think?

plz dont remove this post. :)

now if christians werent attacking our mosques in the west, then i would be the first to speak out against such attacks on churches, but now christians arent angels now are they? nop!

keltoi, as for the 3 indonesian girls, how is that any worst than what happened to abeer and her familly? again, they expose their hypocrisy, they shot a girls familly to death, she was screaming, they then took turns raping her, then they killed her, and burned her body, wow and they have the audacity to always bring up the incident of the 3 indonesian girls like as if to show their saints and a purely lovable people. boy do they really make me sick! shukran admins plz dont remove this! shukran!

[Amadeus85]

now if christians werent attacking our mosques in the west, then i would be the first to speak out against such attacks on churches, but now christians arent angels now are they? nop!

Man! Do you come from Moon? How do you know that those who attacked this mosque were christians? In England only about 65 % of people are christians. BTW you really want to play the game eye for an eye? Church burned for mosque burned? I am sorry but it is completely not in my style to seek revenge on innocent people. But i guess that you like this style.

shukran admins plz dont remove this! shukran!

Yes , dont remove this post, it is very significant.

[Sami Zaatari]

yes, i am ALL for an eye for an eye, hey i know for a fact most mosque burnings aand attacks are by christians. for instance the site bombislam.com has a group of trashy american christians SHOOTING THE QURAN, then pouring beer over it and urinating on it! so yes christians are very capable of doing these heinous things such as attacking mosques and i know its them doing it!

and quite frankly, lets say they arent christians doing it, i still dont care, you guys claim the west is based onnnnnnnn judeo-christian values, hence control your ppl then right? it seems you dont control your ppl since such incidents against mosques happens on a frequent bases showing you actually dont care, infact christians INCITE IT, what do you expect? christian missionaries, evangelicals, and politicians always go around saying mosquessssss do this and that etc etc hence their making ppl hate mosques and wanting to attack them! go read robert spencer, daniel pipes, all christians always inciting negativity towards mosques, what u think the outcome will be? so therefore christians are STILL responsible hence when ur church goes down, then u know u cant opress us without getting away with it, i cant stress this enough, although there are many muslims in the west, whom you villify, attack, and incite against, never forget that your ppl are also in our lands, and im not advocating, im just saying, what u do to us there will have consequences on your own folks here, and hey thats a fact, it aint like im calling for it, im just stating a common fact which is human nature. im in a muslim country, and i havent attacked nor do i plan to go beat up any westerner, my neighbors are western, hence dont twist what im saying to claim heyyyyy hes advocating, nop, im stating fact and you know i am.

[Cognescenti]

Wow. There are some here who need some serious deprogramming.

[Sami Zaatari]

and also what in the hell do you think the outcome will be when your politicians go around using words such as ISLAMIC FACIST, you think average joe or shmoe is gonna make a dinstinction or will he just lump all ppl who are muslims into that bracket? i think you and i know this, oh you follow Islam?! hey Islamic facist! Islam=Islamic same same and our leader said ISLAMIC facist your the enemyyyyyy im gona beat you up and attack your centers! thats how average joe and shmoe will think after hearing such terms. its like when jack straw started attacking the veil, the next week women in veils start getting attacked! so your leaders whom profess their faith in christ such as blair and bush are ALWAYS inciting attacks on muslims and our places of worship, so quite frankly your thread topic is simple hypocrisy and double standards.

[Sinbad]

I was slowly beginning to think that islam was miss understood, this was a good reminder of how the religion of peace spread.

[Sami Zaatari]

I was slowly beginning to think that islam was miss understood, this was a good reminder of how the religion of peace spread.

go worship a lighter, opps i meant fire! :laugh:

[Sami Zaatari]

I was slowly beginning to think that islam was miss understood, this was a good reminder of how the religion of peace spread.

and Islam spread to indonesia, malaysia etc through no wars, so your assertion that Islam was solely spread by the sword is debunked here. go worship fire as your (and mine) backward persian ancestors did, soon you will see alottttttttt of fire. but too bad you wont enjoy it. :(

[Sinbad]

and Islam spread to indonesia, malaysia etc through no wars, so your assertion that Islam was solely spread by the sword is debunked here. go worship fire as your (and mine) backward persian ancestors did, soon you will see alottttttttt of fire. but too bad you wont enjoy it. :(

Thankyou:statisfie

I do not worshipp fire, but the one and only God. Ahura Mazda.

[Woodrow]

Just a reminder, direct arguments towards the topic and not any individual members.

This thread is getting heated and tempers are high. At the moment I do not plan to close the thread nor delete any posts that have been already posted.

However, any posts from this point forward that are a personal attack on any member, will be deleted.

Argue the topic, not the posters.

[Sami Zaatari]

Just a reminder, direct arguments towards the topic and not any individual members.

This thread is getting heated and tempers are high. At the moment I do not plan to close the thread nor delete any posts that have been already posted.

However, any posts from this point forward that are a personal attack on any member, will be deleted.

Argue the topic, not the posters.

sir yes sir!

[rav]

and quite frankly, lets say they arent christians doing it, i still dont care, you guys claim the west is based onnnnnnnn judeo-christian values, hence control your ppl then right?

Shalom,

Sami, do you really believe in that type of collective responsibility? Under that logic, it would be justified for me to go burn down a mosque because of an event that occurs in Pakistan. It doesn't seem right and I genuinly hope you do not actually believe in such a thing. The logic your using, defends the ignorant who label Muslims as "Islamic facists" because they can just say, "Oh, they are killing Christians so they must all be Islamic facist"... Don't continue a dangerous cycle which the actual "facists" perpetuate.

[north_malaysian]

Actually, the churches were attacked by Anti-Apostacy group. Those churches belong to ethnic Javanese, Sundanese and Batavians who became Christians.

Currently there are about:

* Javanese (Javanese Speaking) Christians - 7,766,840
* Javanese (Indonesian Speaking) Christians - 2,205,537
* Sundanese (Sundanese Speaking) Christians - 20,852
* Sundanese (Indonesian Speaking) Christians - 60,151
* Batavian Christians - 249,515

They even have their own churches:

* Christian Church of North Central Java - 22,600 members
* Christian Churches of Java - 299,000 members
* East Java Christian Church - 153,000 members
* Evangelical Christian Church in Java - 73,800 members
* Indonesian Christian Church in Central Java - 73,400 members
* Indonesian Christian Church in East Java - 23,700 members
* Indonesian Christian Church in West Java - 42,400 members
* Javanese Mennonite Church - 71,300 members

[Cognescenti]

Aj caramba! I leave one thread because of an anti-Hindu hit the pinata contest and I stumble into an anti-Christian and anti-Zororastrian pinata contest.

Woohoo! This is real progress. Nobody has blamed the Jews for anything in this thread.

Let's see, the Budhists took it on the chin in regard to separatists in Thailand about 2 days ago. Who is left? The Rastafarians? Surely they have accidentally burned something down by leaving some ganga smoldering.

[rav]

Nobody has blamed the Jews for anything in this thread.

Shalom,

Do not speak to soon, *Sarcasm* - I am sure we had a hand in this somehow. - *Sarcasm*

[Bittersteel]

I was slowly beginning to think that islam was miss understood, this was a good reminder of how the religion of peace spread.

actually the spread of Islam in Indonesia was peaceful,more peaceful than in other regions.I got this info from wiki and had it checked too.

What is that Islamic principle we keep hearing about...you know, the one where Muslims are commanded to live in harmony with those of other religions in an Islamic state?

I admit when it comes to evangelism by other religions ,or forcing of different ideologies by other people onto Muslims, things will be different.anything but peaceful.
and anti-christian ,anti-missionary activites are not uncommon.It happened in India(the Indian envoy was talking about secularism;someone mentioned about this missionary who was killed along with his two sons) but I think it might have stopped now.It happened in Bangladesh here too,a missionary killed(a native he himself being a convert).

err...as this thread was about "anti-apostacy group" ,I am assuming the the attacks were done on the Chruches mainly due to seccusful evangelism,right?
or did the Indonesians converted on their own.

[guyabano]

.... Mazda.

Hmmm, Madza ? Is that not a japanese Car Brand, or something ?


to the topic:

No matter what country and what religion, a house of God should never be attatcked. This is simply horrible and these people should be punished for that

[Muslim Knight]

Wow another slugfest in here too! I love slugfests. Slugfest is where we slug it out, people!

Just chillin' out our burnt up bros. LOLOLOL

[Sami Zaatari]

this may slightly be off topic, but i thought the name of the church was interesting:

Sidang Jemaat Allah church

i wonder how these christians would feel if they heard western christians say Allah is actually a pagan moon God!

[guyabano]

i wonder how these christians

well I guess, THESE Christians will think, that THOSE muslims have forgotten already, that ALLAH and GOD are the same ! No?

[Sami Zaatari]

well I guess, THESE Christians will think, that THOSE muslims have forgotten already, that ALLAH and GOD are the same ! No?

erm? :?

[Muslim Knight]

this may slightly be off topic, but i thought the name of the church was interesting:

Sidang Jemaat Allah church

If it were really Muslims who blew up the church, I think they did it wrong. Very wrong.

Perhaps they should have gathered in front of the signboard instead, point at it and laugh out loud. No, laugh heartily. Even harderr!!

That is sooooOOOooooOOOoo what I would've done.


Or... enter the church in large masses, and do salah jamaah together en masse. If asked why, just say we thought this was masjid. Bam! Straight up gold.

Who says Christians don't know how to make good jokes. Best of all.

[Malaikah]

well I guess, THESE Christians will think, that THOSE muslims have forgotten already, that ALLAH and GOD are the same ! No?

I think his point was directed to those Christians missionaries who spread lies about Islam and claim that Allah is some sort of moon God. Rubbish of course. But it sure doesn't help their cause when it turns out that the term Allah is also used by Christian Arabs.

Anyway... some of the attitudes expressed in this thread have been rather disturbing. :rollseyes

[duskiness]

Perhaps they should have gathered in front of the signboard instead, point at it and laugh out loud. No, laugh heartily. Even harderr!!
That is sooooOOOooooOOOoo what I would've done.
Or... enter the church in large masses, and do salah jamaah together en masse. If asked why, just say we thought this was masjid. Bam! Straight up gold.
Who says Christians don't know how to make good jokes. Best of all.

....so so funny to laugh at others people faith.
and this is even better:

go worship a lighter, opps i meant fire! :laugh:

hahahah...almost crying with laughter. Now let's attack another church will have so much more fun



:enough!:
going back to my place before someone will remind me where it is.

[Woodrow]

One of the difficulties here is we do have members from many nations posting. In order to understand any members intent of what they are saying we need to keep in mind the situations of where they live.

Some of us are fortunate to live in places where People do live in accordance with their faith and there is no ridicule or adverse actions against each other. Some are not so fortunate and there is difficulty in thinking peaceful thoughts of each other. Let us not judge what any say unless we have walked in the shoes they have to wear every day.

The true conflicts need to be directed against misguidance and ignorance. On a forum all we can do is address the issues and refrain from insulting the posters.

[Sami Zaatari]

theres a church which is 5 mins away from my house by car :)

[Talha777]

This is being blown way out of proportion. Nothing was blown up, no one was killed. Muslims simply decided to take the law of their country into their own hands and close down a church consisting of apostates. There is nothing wrong with that, in fact these are noble deeds and I encourage them. In Pakistan, the Lal Masjid authorities are doing the same by taking the laws of Pakistan into their own hands and closing down brothels and immoral music shops. If our governments wont implement the law of the land, than we the ordinary Muslim citizens must take it into our own hands.

[Joe98]

Muslims simply decided to take the law of their country into their own hands and close down a church consisting of apostates.

Thank you for teaching us about Islam.

Which verse of the Koran says a church cannot consist of apostates?

-

[Muslim Knight]

Anyway... some of the attitudes expressed in this thread have been rather disturbing. :rollseyes

When's the last time you heard some Muslim brother or sister in this forum telling us to rise up and blow up churches? Insofar that I have been on this forum I have heard none. It is against the spirit of religion to blow up other people's places of worship.

But we do hear someone blows up a church/mosque somewhere in some country and based on how long have the conflict between our two religions been, there is no telling who started first.

duskiness, sorry if you think my joke is offensive. I meant it to lighten the load of the heart by humor, and that humor is aimed at how silly really religious conflicts can be to become violence that spills blood and causes destruction of places of worship.

However, I do agree with Sami and Malaikah. If I may add, here at the eastern side Christian missionaries have come to spread the gospel but they did it by way of deception by substituting terms like "God" (or Tuhan in Malay/Indonesian languages) for Allah in order to confuse the predominantly Muslims here, quickly sell their religion and gain quick followers. Meanwhile, in the West, Christians were busy refuting us Muslims and Islam, saying that Allah is the name of moon god. So which is which?

Hence, the reason of my joke.

[Woodrow]

The difficulty is that people who hear of these events are not the people living there. We do not know who the members of that church were, we do not know how aggressively they may have been trying to spread Christianity, we do not know how they were related to their neighbors.

A Christian Westerner has no concept of what it is like to have your friends, and relatives become apostates and then try to spread their apostasy.

I do not condone the harming of innocent people nor even unnecessarily harming an enemy who is not posing a physical threat. However, I do see the need to silence those who spread false teachings, but I believe that should be done as peacefully as possible.

Would this have made World News if instead of a church it was a Satanic Temple and the people were spreading Satanism? Suppose it had been a Satanic temple, would the Christian world still be condemning the attack or would they be secretly praising the attackers?

As a Muslim I view the spreading of any false religion to be offensive. Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries need to be aware that their teachings are very offensive to Muslims. When you live in a country, a person needs to be aware of the need to avoid needlessly offending the majority. But, that does not mean people should be harmed or property needlessly damaged.

But, my thoughts are a moot point as I do not live there and I do not know what prior actions led up to the attack.

[Muezzin]

Clean-up on aisle 12...

Just deleted a couple of wholly inappropriate posts which seemed to justify the attacks, as well as its replies. Now, hopefully, we can get back to discussing the story. As always, if someone is playing up - report 'em.

[Amadeus85]

This is being blown way out of proportion. Nothing was blown up, no one was killed.

I made this thread because Islamirama said that christians in muslim countries have more laws and feel better than muslims in christian countries.
Well it seems that christians living in muslim countries dont always feel like in heaven

Muslims simply decided to take the law of their country into their own hands and close down a church consisting of apostates.

Talha i really would prefer not to read what i have just read.What do you mean by taking their law in their own hands? And what would you say if westerners start to burn all mosques in West which preach hatred? And i wonder in which mosque ahve you learned such peaceful and tolerant attitudes? So really Sharia Law tell muslims to burn churches made by apostates? And what if in those churches were people? I guess that it is not problem for you and people like you.
I really hope that european politics will keep away people like you from our continent.
Salam.

There is nothing wrong with that, in fact these are noble deeds and I encourage them. In Pakistan, the Lal Masjid authorities are doing the same by taking the laws of Pakistan into their own hands and closing down brothels and immoral music shops. If our governments wont implement the law of the land, than we the ordinary Muslim citizens must take it into our own hands.

So you compare christian churches with brothels and music shops? I won't lower to your level. But really this chatt opened my eyes for many things that i didnt notice before.
Peace.

[Keltoi]

As I attempted to point out earlier, hassling and church burning are really the least of the worries Christians have in Indonesia. When three Christian schoolgirls are beheaded by masked men for being Christian that points to a much darker problem.

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=Woodrow;759328]

A Christian Westerner has no concept of what it is like to have your friends, and relatives become apostates and then try to spread their apostasy.

If i had friends or relatives apostaes i would surely Not burn their church/mosque/temple/.

I do see the need to silence those who spread false teachings, but I believe that should be done as peacefully as possible.

Ermmm? What? You must be joking i guess. And what if those who spread false teaching ( christianity you mean , right?) wouldnt want to be silent? Whats then? What next steps would you take to silent them?

Would this have made World News if instead of a church it was a Satanic Temple and the people were spreading Satanism? Suppose it had been a Satanic temple, would the Christian world still be condemning the attack or would they be secretly praising the attackers?

You compare christian churches to satanic temple?

As a Muslim I view the spreading of any false religion to be offensive. Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries need to be aware that their teachings are very offensive to Muslims. When you live in a country, a person needs to be aware of the need to avoid needlessly offending the majority. But, that does not mean people should be harmed or property needlessly damaged.

And what about freedom of religion? And how would you feel if westerners banned teaching islam in West ?
You muslims want more and more muslim schools in West. You demand halal food in our schools. You want special prayer rooms in airports and jails.You want seperate swimmingpools for girls and boys, Here in West. And you still say that non muslim faiths are very offensive for muslims in muslim countries?It sounds like huge Hipocrysy. But it is ok, christian faith was persecuted in ancient Rome as well, and see how it all ended. You can burn churches, even with people "spreading false teachings" inside, but you wont stop the Truth. Not by using violence.

[Cognescenti]

.......I really hope that european politics will keep away people like you from our continent.
Salam...

.

Are you sure you guys couldn't take just this one off our hands :)

[Zman]

When three Christian schoolgirls are beheaded by masked men for being Christian that points to a much darker problem.

To be perfectly honest, Indonesian Christians have also beheaded Muslims.

Many Muslims have been murdered by Christians on predominantly Christian Indonesian islands.

So, the violence works both ways. The Christians are neither innocent nor weak. They have committed their fair-share of atrocities...

[Cognescenti]

What I am having a hard time understanding is this extreme reaction to "apostasy".

If a faith is so inherently beautiful and rewarding to those who see its light, then why is there a need to punish thsoe who lose faith? Wouldn't the loss of a true relationship with God be sufficient?

With all due respect, it seems kind of 15th century.

[- Qatada -]

What I am having a hard time understanding is this extreme reaction to "apostasy".

If a faith is so inherently beautiful and rewarding to those who see its light, then why is there a need to punish thsoe who lose faith? Wouldn't the loss of a true relationship with God be sufficient?

With all due respect, it seems kind of 15th century.

Since you asked the question, I hope you can give up some of your time to read this response by brother Ansar,

:sl:

In order to understand this issue, we need to examine the Islamic law on apostasy. Since religion is looked on as a personal affair in western society, the notion of state intervention in one's personal choice would naturally seem excessive. However, from the Islamic perspective, a number of points must be observed with regard to apostasy:

1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
10:99 So would you (O Muhammad) then compel people to become believers?

Likewise, Islam encourages its followers to reflect and contemplate upon the universe around us and to ponder over the beauty of the Qur'anic message:

47:24 Do they not ponder over the Qur'an or are their hearts locked up?

51:20-21. And on earth are signs for those endowed with inner-certainty; and [likewise there are signs] in yourselves, do you not observe?

29:20 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.

Thus, Islam requires that one's faith be constructed upon logical investigation and study of the universe in which we live. Through logical contemplation, one realizes the supreme authority of the Creator and the veracity of Muhammad's (saws) claim to prophethood. Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam. Yet on the other hand, the list of educated converts to Islam is immense, and it includes educated leaders such as priests, rabbis and atheists.

2. Those who have left Islam have historically fallen under three categories: those who left having never properly understood the religion often due to social circumstances, those who faked a conversion into Islam in order to undermine the Islamic community from within, and those who left to support opposing forces in battle against the Muslims. Because of the first category, Islam requires that the person who has chosen to forsake the religion be consulted with in order that his doubts may be clarified to him if there is any specific issue of confusion, or so that he may learn the proper Islamic teachings that he may otherwise have not been exposed to. As for the second and third category, this was the original reason behind the Prophet's statement on apostasy. The Qur'an records (3:72) that the Jews of Madinah decided to initiate the practice of pretending to accept Islam and then publicly declare their rejection of it, so as to destroy the confidence of the newly-converted Muslims. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh ruled that a punishment should be announced so that those who decide to accept Islam do so because of a firm conviction not in order to harm the Muslim community from within.

3. Coming to the actual law of apostasy, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did say, in the above historical context, "Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud) but how exactly do we understand this statement and does it conflict with the principles of freedom? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself clarified this statement in another hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim where he mentioned that the one who was to be fought against was the one who "abandons his religion and the Muslim community". It should be noted that every country has maintained punishments, including execution, for treason and rebellion against the state (See Mozley and Whitley's Law Dictionary, under "Treason and Treason Felony," pp. 368-369). Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified.

So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.


From another of my posts:

If a predominantly Christian country were going to execute a former Christian who converted to another religion (in this hypothetical case, Islam) would you be ok with that?

As a side note, this has already happened, examples include the spanish inquisition. But on to your question...

First of all, the law on apostasy has been explained here and here. It is commonly taken out of context, but the point to note is that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) clarified that the one to be punished was the one who rebelled against the community. This is quite similar to state laws on treason. A state is justified in taking action against those who pose a significant threat. But the idea of setting up an inquisition to examine the beliefs of the people is against Islamic teachings, so someone who personally changes their religious convictions will be insignificant in the eyes of the state. It is the one who publically announces his rebellion, stirring civil unrest, who must be opposed. While the Christian inquisitions were bent on examining (through the use of torture) the beliefs of those Muslims and Jews who outwardly professed conversion to Christianity, in an Islamic state, someone who even outwardly professes acceptane of Islam is left alone because they cause no harm to society, and the Islamic state is only interested in the security of its society.

If someone poses a threat to a state's security, then they are justified in taking action against them. But if someone changes their personal religious views, then it is quite extreme for the state to attempt to pry into the hearts of its citizens to determine their faith and punish them.

:w:

_______

Material from this post has been added to this article:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#28

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...-apostasy.html

[Woodrow]

A Christian Westerner has no concept of what it is like to have your friends, and relatives become apostates and then try to spread their apostasy.

If i had friends or relatives apostaes i would surely Not burn their church/mosque/temple/.

I do see the need to silence those who spread false teachings, but I believe that should be done as peacefully as possible.

Ermmm? What? You must be joking i guess. And what if those who spread false teaching ( christianity you mean , right?) wouldnt want to be silent? Whats then? What next steps would you take to silent them?

Would this have made World News if instead of a church it was a Satanic Temple and the people were spreading Satanism? Suppose it had been a Satanic temple, would the Christian world still be condemning the attack or would they be secretly praising the attackers?

You compare christian churches to satanic temple?

As a Muslim I view the spreading of any false religion to be offensive. Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries need to be aware that their teachings are very offensive to Muslims. When you live in a country, a person needs to be aware of the need to avoid needlessly offending the majority. But, that does not mean people should be harmed or property needlessly damaged.

And what about freedom of religion? And how would you feel if westerners banned teaching islam in West ?
You muslims want more and more muslim schools in West. You demand halal food in our schools. You want special prayer rooms in airports and jails.You want seperate swimmingpools for girls and boys, Here in West. And you still say that non muslim faiths are very offensive for muslims in muslim countries?It sounds like huge Hipocrysy. But it is ok, christian faith was persecuted in ancient Rome as well, and see how it all ended. You can burn churches, even with people "spreading false teachings" inside, but you wont stop the Truth. Not by using violence.

If i had friends or relatives apostaes i would surely Not burn their church/mosque/temple/.
Neither would I. But I would grieve for them and pray that they return to the truth.

Ermmm? What? You must be joking i guess. And what if those who spread false teaching ( christianity you mean , right?) wouldnt want to be silent? Whats then? What next steps would you take to silent them?
Not just Christianity. Any religion other than Islam. If they choose not to be silent I would support the outlawing of Evangelicalism, enforced by fines and if need be jail time. I do advovate the freedom of choice for people to worship as they desire, however I am against anyone preaching with the intent of converting people, to people that are not willing inquirers in their home or place of worship.

You compare christian churches to satanic temple?
Yes, but I do not see them as directly worshiping satan but unknowingly serve him by leading people away from the worship of God(swt)

And what about freedom of religion? And how would you feel if westerners banned teaching islam in West ?
I do not favor banning of releigions. I am against the open evangelizing of them to people that are not seeking information about them. I can agree with with Westerners if they choose to out-law the public evangelization of Islam as long as they do so equally and do not prevent anyone from worshiping as they choose.

You muslims want more and more muslim schools in West. You demand halal food in our schools. You want special prayer rooms in airports and jails.You want seperate swimmingpools for girls and boys, Here in West. And you still say that non muslim faiths are very offensive for muslims in muslim countries?It sounds like huge Hipocrysy.
Yes we do want the things all people want for themselves. But, I believe you will find that most Muslims are willing to pay their portion of the bill to have those things provided.

But it is ok, christian faith was persecuted in ancient Rome as well, and see how it all ended.
We do not want to persecute non-Muslims we just do not want them to be blatantly and unabashed leading our Brothers and Sisters into hellfire.

You can burn churches, even with people "spreading false teachings" inside, but you wont stop the Truth. Not by using violence.
I do not advocate the use of violence and I do not know a single Muslim who does.

[Keltoi]

The religious violence in Indonesia has seen a major surge in the past 20-30 years. Most experts point to the growth of Islamic extremism, the same kind practiced in the Middle East.

[- Qatada -]

The religious violence in Indonesia has seen a major surge in the past 20-30 years. Most experts point to the growth of Islamic extremism, the same kind practiced in the Middle East.

If there was Islamic Extremism, i.e. following Islaam whole-heartedly, then there wouldn't be the killing of innocents, or women, children, seniors in war etc. :)

So please don't use that term if them actions don't belong to Islaam.



Thankyou.

[Amadeus85]

To be perfectly honest, Indonesian Christians have also beheaded Muslims.

Many Muslims have been murdered by Christians on predominantly Christian Indonesian islands.

So, the violence works both ways. The Christians are neither innocent nor weak. They have committed their fair-share of atrocities...

Give some proofs first.

[Amadeus85]

Neither would I. But I would grieve for them and pray that they return to the truth.

So do i.

Not just Christianity. Any religion other than Islam. If they choose not to be silent I would support the outlawing of Evangelicalism, enforced by fines and if need be jail time. I do advovate the freedom of choice for people to worship as they desire, however I am against anyone preaching with the intent of converting people, to people that are not willing inquirers in their home or place of worship.

Trying to ban preaching christianity is the best way to spread it.Just look what is happening in China, Birma,Cambodia, Vietnam and Indonesia also. They also try so much to stop and ban preaching the Gospel, and the more they try the more christians are in those countries. I am sure that after those churcches in Indonesia were burned, those christians there didnt leave their faith, but some muslims rather felt shamed about actions of their brothers in fath.
Christianity grows best and fastest on martyrs' soil. So your bannings and jails would do the opposite action that you want. But it is just God's plan.It doesnt depend on you and me.

Yes, but I do not see them as directly worshiping satan but unknowingly serve him by leading people away from the worship of God(swt)

The same thing i think about islam.

I do not favor banning of releigions. I am against the open evangelizing of them to people that are not seeking information about them. I can agree with with Westerners if they choose to out-law the public evangelization of Islam as long as they do so equally and do not prevent anyone from worshiping as they choose.

Yes yes, but muslims actually do public evangelization in Europe and USA (for example american prisons).But i am really not worried about it. Lately some westerners converted to islam, but the main reason is that islam is seen as something new, something opposite to western civilization (thats why so many leftists and people with liberal attitudes convert to islam, as they hate West and western values).Converting to islam is seen cool now in West, just like being a communist 30 years ago, or alter globalist decade ago.Islam is seen by some westerners as another ideology which is in opposition to capitalistic and "imperialistic" west.But this fashion will go away as suddenly as it appeared.It will happen when people understand that islam is just like every other religion, with its good points and weaknesses also.

We do not want to persecute non-Muslims we just do not want them to be blatantly and unabashed leading our Brothers and Sisters into hellfire.

But when other ways fails, persecution and "silencing" are acceptable right?

I do not advocate the use of violence and I do not know a single Muslim who does.

But..? (there is always some "but" isn't?) but if apostates dont sit silent in their homes...but if apostates wont stop building their churches..

[Zman]

Give some proofs first.

Here's one for now. God Willing, I'll provide more, later...

Christian Terrorists:

Twelve Christians From Poso face The Death Penalty For Terrorism Offences.

The trials of twelve Christian men accused of murdering two Muslims near Poso, Central Sulawesi, have begun at the South Jakarta District Court. The men are charged under both the 2002 Anti-Terrorism law and articles in the criminal code, and face the death penalty if convicted.

The defendants are Harpri Tumonggi alias Api (28), Darman Aja alias Panye (23), Edwin Poima alias Epin (25), Agus Chandra alias Anda (23), Syaiful Ibrahim alias Ipul (22), Erosman Tioki alias Eman (28), Walsus Alpin alias Eje (24). Also being tried separately are Benhard Tompodusu alias Tende (28), Sastra Yudawastu Naser alias Ibo (23), Romi Yanto Parusu alias Romi (19), Fernikson Bontura alias Kenong (20), Jefri Bontura alias Ate (21).

In the aftermath of the executions of Fabianus Tibo, Marinus Riwu and Dominggus da Silva in September 2006 Christians in various parts of the country staged a number of sometimes violent protests, both locally in and around Poso and in towns in Flores such as Atambua. In one such protest on 23rd September 2006 a mob of Christians set up a roadblock on the Trans Sulawesi road and stopped motorists to inspect their identity papers, presumably to find out what religion they were (see KTP Religion). One of the vehicles stopped by the defendants was a cargo van driven by small trader Arham Badaruddin, 40, and his helper Wandi, 25, both of whom hailed from South Sulawesi - these two men were then forced out of the van and beaten to death, over an extended period.

Lead prosecutor Bayu Adhinugroho Arianto told presiding judge Achmad Sobari it was Syaiful Ibrahim alias Ipul’s idea to set up the roadblock to protest the executions of Fabianus Tibo, Marinus Riwu and Dominggus da Silva on September 22nd 2006.

Judge Achmad Sobari adjourned the hearing until April 12th, at which time the court will begin hearing from 10 witnesses called by the prosecution. [1]

Source:
http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1204...an-terrorists/

[Woodrow]

Neither would I. But I would grieve for them and pray that they return to the truth.

So do i.


Not just Christianity. Any religion other than Islam. If they choose not to be silent I would support the outlawing of Evangelicalism, enforced by fines and if need be jail time. I do advovate the freedom of choice for people to worship as they desire, however I am against anyone preaching with the intent of converting people, to people that are not willing inquirers in their home or place of worship.

Trying to ban preaching christianity is the best way to spread it.Just look what is happening in China, Birma,Cambodia, Vietnam and Indonesia also. They also try so much to stop and ban preaching the Gospel, and the more they try the more christians are in those countries. I am sure that after those churcches in Indonesia were burned, those christians there didnt leave their faith, but some muslims rather felt shamed about actions of their brothers in fath.
Christianity grows best and fastest on martyrs' soil. So your bannings and jails would do the opposite action that you want. But it is just God's plan.It doesnt depend on you and me.

Yes, but I do not see them as directly worshiping satan but unknowingly serve him by leading people away from the worship of God(swt)

The same thing i think about islam.

I do not favor banning of releigions. I am against the open evangelizing of them to people that are not seeking information about them. I can agree with with Westerners if they choose to out-law the public evangelization of Islam as long as they do so equally and do not prevent anyone from worshiping as they choose.

Yes yes, but muslims actually do public evangelization in Europe and USA (for example american prisons).But i am really not worried about it. Lately some westerners converted to islam, but the main reason is that islam is seen as something new, something opposite to western civilization (thats why so many leftists and people with liberal attitudes convert to islam, as they hate West and western values).Converting to islam is seen cool now in West, just like being a communist 30 years ago, or alter globalist decade ago.Islam is seen by some westerners as another ideology which is in opposition to capitalistic and "imperialistic" west.But this fashion will go away as suddenly as it appeared.It will happen when people understand that islam is just like every other religion, with its good points and weaknesses also.

We do not want to persecute non-Muslims we just do not want them to be blatantly and unabashed leading our Brothers and Sisters into hellfire.

But when other ways fails, persecution and "silencing" are acceptable right?



[/QUOTE]

I do not advocate the use of violence and I do not know a single Muslim who does

So do i.



Trying to ban preaching christianity is the best way to spread it.Just look what is happening in China, Birma,Cambodia, Vietnam and Indonesia also. They also try so much to stop and ban preaching the Gospel, and the more they try the more christians are in those countries. I am sure that after those churcches in Indonesia were burned, those christians there didnt leave their faith, but some muslims rather felt shamed about actions of their brothers in fath.
Christianity grows best and fastest on martyrs' soil. So your bannings and jails would do the opposite action that you want. But it is just God's plan.It doesnt depend on you and me.

That is all true. Like you said "But it is just God's plan.It doesnt depend on you and me." We can only pray that our Brothers and Sisters have the wisdom not to be led into apostacy. Another step is to expand the teachings of Islam to the young people so that God(swt) will grant them the knowledge not to become apostates.




The same thing i think about islam.

That is only fair and if most Christians were honest I believe they would say the same.




Yes yes, but muslims actually do public evangelization in Europe and USA (for example american prisons).But i am really not worried about it. Lately some westerners converted to islam, but the main reason is that islam is seen as something new, something opposite to western civilization (thats why so many leftists and people with liberal attitudes convert to islam, as they hate West and western values).Converting to islam is seen cool now in West, just like being a communist 30 years ago, or alter globalist decade ago.Islam is seen by some westerners as another ideology which is in opposition to capitalistic and "imperialistic" west.But this fashion will go away as suddenly as it appeared.It will happen when people understand that islam is just like every other religion, with its good points and weaknesses also.
I am not aware of any Muslims doing any Public Evangelizing here in the US. The NOI does, especially in prisons and many non-Muslims do mistake them for Muslims. I can not speak about Europe. It has been a long time since I been in any European countries.

Perhaps some people revert to Islam for the reasons you mentioned. However, those are all the wrong reasons and I would doubt if any would maintain the discipline to truly practice Islam, if that is why they revert.

I reverted simply because I felt the truth of the Qur'an one day when I was reading it in an attempt to improve my Arabic. The feeling I had that day, and still have was hundreds of times stronger, than the day I accepted Jesus(as) and was over come with the "Holy Spirit" as a born again Christian. After accepting Islam and learning to truly worship Allah(swt) did I understand just how wrong my Christian feelings had been. No, it was not an immediate change jumping from devout Christian to Muslim. There was 40 years in between during which I was sort of torn between being agnostic, Buddhist or whatever. I had never wanted to be a Muslim, I did not seek it and for a long time I would have been considered an enemy of Islam.

Allah(swt) literally smacked me off the side of my head and woke me up.






But when other ways fails, persecution and "silencing" are acceptable right?
Persecution is never acceptable and silencing has to be done without harm to the person. But, to be honest some people are difficult to get to be silent. i guess if we can't silence them we can try to ignore them and teach our children to avoid them





But..? (there is always some "but" isn't?) but if apostates dont sit silent in their homes...but if apostates wont stop building their churches..

Already as an apostate they know they have lost all of their birth rights as Muslims. I suspect that many apostates will give up their rebellion against their family and eventually return to Islam.

[beespreeteam]

What is wrong with some of the people here - especially those actually supporting it?

'An eye for an eye'??!

This is not the teaching of the Prophet - indeed, we are meant to reciprocate evil with good, and that's the way Islam REALLY spread - it's the example guys, not the force or trying to be all powerful or something.


Sigh.

[snakelegs]

using some one else's evil as a justification for yours is not only faulty logic, but it irritates me because i run in to this all the time when i criticize what my country is doing - people will justify it by pointing out some horrendous thing in a muslim country and saying that it worse.
for example by the logic of some here, the u.s. is justified torturing prisoners, kidnapping people etc etc.? i don't think so.
don't you see the problem with this thinking?
btw, when i have a country, i will allow freedom of religion, but not proselytizing. some of the christian groups in the u.s. are very well funded and convert people by giving them material goods - i've know some hindus who object very strongly to their practices in india, for example.

[Sami Zaatari]

Give some proofs first.

nooooo no christians never commit atrocities or crimes. no sir! no proof is needed, you are a splended ppl! you dont ever kill or commit genocide nopppppppp no sir!

no no you dont do that yes you are perfect, your preists just have sex with alter boys thats all, yes i think thats your only problem other than that your a splending folk to behold! as the popularity ratings sometimes say!

[Keltoi]

nooooo no christians never commit atrocities or crimes. no sir! no proof is needed, you are a splended ppl! you dont ever kill or commit genocide nopppppppp no sir!

no no you dont do that yes you are perfect, your preists just have sex with alter boys thats all, yes i think thats your only problem other than that your a splending folk to behold! as the popularity ratings sometimes say!

How profound....

[north_malaysian]

Give some proofs first.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_indon.htm

[Keltoi]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_indon.htm

I've been looking for info on this all day long...thanks for finding it.

[Bittersteel]

The religious violence in Indonesia has seen a major surge in the past 20-30 years. Most experts point to the growth of Islamic extremism, the same kind practiced in the Middle East.

like I said before times are now such that anything said against Muslims will be believed.and personally I don't have any sympathy for Indonesian Christians IF they are trying to evangelize( I don't care what happens in Europe;its your duty to ban Muslim evangelism,heck I never thought things like that could ever happen) and harm the Muslim population in Indonesia.
If apostates are trying to evangelize they should be deported but usually you get reactions like this.

[Muezzin]

Guys, can we all stop this mindless tit-for-tat logic? Aren't we Muslims supposed to rise above what is thrown at us rather than indulging in it vengefully? Some of the logic I'm seeing here is just silly. If Tommy kills Bob's child, does that give Bob the right to kill Tommy's child? According to some of the logic I'm seeing here it would.

[Woodrow]

This thread has gone from debate to emotionalism. Logic and reason have gone out the back door and so is the thread. You may read it for reference but it is now locked for posting. It will be reopened if somebody can give justification as to why it should be.

:threadclo