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Khattab
08-13-2005, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson



Surely he was influenced by Christian and Jewish prophets - who were rebranded as Muslims?



No need to apologise - we're both dealing with unfamiliar ideas here, so we're bound to confuse each other at some stage! :D

Peace
Peace Callum,

So is Prophet Muhammed (SWH) a christian or jewish prophet as he was (and still is) mentioned in the previous books of revelation, long before he was even born.

Also what do you think the aim of Muhammed (SWH) was (already asked this question to one of our famous members and he was unable to answer) ?

And in your opinion was he crazy or a liar if you reject the notion that he was indeed a prophet of the Almighty?

Let me thankyou for your presence here as it is like a breath of fresh air, you seem to be quite open minded :)

Peace
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czgibson
08-13-2005, 09:36 PM
Greetings, Khattab,
Thank you for your kind words. I seem to be saying that a lot lately - there is a very friendly and welcoming atmosphere here on the forum! :)
Originally Posted by Khattab
So is Prophet Muhammed (SWH) a christian or jewish prophet as he was (and still is) mentioned in the previous books of revelation, long before he was even born.
A very good question. I'm not familiar with the references in Christian and Jewish holy books to be honest, although I've heard this claim quite a lot, and have no reason to doubt it. Can anyone provide the references?

Also what do you think the aim of Muhammed (SWH) was (already asked this question to one of our famous members and he was unable to answer) ?
I think Muhammad's (pbuh) aim was to re-establish the pure monotheism that he felt had been distorted or corrupted by previous faiths. He wanted to abolish idolatry, and to deliver God's final revelation, which updated and superseded all previous revelations. In doing this he was much more successful than any previous prophet, because he attained spiritual and political authority within his lifetime.

And in your opinion was he crazy or a liar if you reject the notion that he was indeed a prophet of the Almighty?
This question gets right to the heart of the matter. I don't think he was crazy or a liar. He clearly believed what he was doing was right, and as I've said, any arguments to suggest he was acting from selfish motives are unconvincing to say the least. However, I do have difficulties in accepting that divine revelation can occur. This obviously rules out, for me, perhaps the fundamental tenet of Islam, namely that the Qur'an is a divine revelation. As is clear, I do not believe in god, so divine revelation is difficult for me to accept.

Let me thankyou for your presence here as it is like a breath of fresh air, you seem to be quite open minded :)
Thank you. Let me say in return that the welcome I have received on this forum has surpassed my expectations hugely. This is, I must admit, is due to a flawed understanding of Islam within me. It is too easy for us in the West to forget that Islam is a tradition of tolerance, debate and generosity (among many other things). In the news we are presented with images and associations that prevent that tradition from being fully recognised. I hope that more Westerners can get involved with the Muslim community, to try and understand the true history and culture of Islam. Of course, the cultural exchange needs to work both ways, but I can only speak for one side of the debate.

Peace
Reply

Khattab
08-13-2005, 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings, Khattab,
Thank you for your kind words. I seem to be saying that a lot lately - there is a very friendly and welcoming atmosphere here on the forum! :)


A very good question. I'm not familiar with the references in Christian and Jewish holy books to be honest, although I've heard this claim quite a lot, and have no reason to doubt it. Can anyone provide the references?



I think Muhammad's (pbuh) aim was to re-establish the pure monotheism that he felt had been distorted or corrupted by previous faiths. He wanted to abolish idolatry, and to deliver God's final revelation, which updated and superseded all previous revelations. In doing this he was much more successful than any previous prophet, because he attained spiritual and political authority within his lifetime.



This question gets right to the heart of the matter. I don't think he was crazy or a liar. He clearly believed what he was doing was right, and as I've said, any arguments to suggest he was acting from selfish motives are unconvincing to say the least. However, I do have difficulties in accepting that divine revelation can occur. This obviously rules out, for me, perhaps the fundamental tenet of Islam, namely that the Qur'an is a divine revelation. As is clear, I do not believe in god, so divine revelation is difficult for me to accept.



Thank you. Let me say in return that the welcome I have received on this forum has surpassed my expectations hugely. This is, I must admit, is due to a flawed understanding of Islam within me. It is too easy for us in the West to forget that Islam is a tradition of tolerance, debate and generosity (among many other things). In the news we are presented with images and associations that prevent that tradition from being fully recognised. I hope that more Westerners can get involved with the Muslim community, to try and understand the true history and culture of Islam. Of course, the cultural exchange needs to work both ways, but I can only speak for one side of the debate.

Peace
Hi Callum,

And thank you for your kind words for all on the forum :D

Regarding Muhammed (SWH) in the Bible, this was a good article posted a while back by the Admin Kadafi:

There are many prophecies of the coming of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in the Bible; both in the book of the Old Testament and the book of the New Testament. The Qur’an tells us about this fact in surat As-Saff. Almighty Allah says: [And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel ! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when be hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.] (As-Saff 61: 6)

“There are many citations in the Bible prophesying the coming of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). All of Isaiah chapter 42 stands out as an obvious reference to Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) as a Messenger of Allah. This chapter describes him as a "light to the Gentiles." While Jesus repeatedly says, "I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel " (See Matthew 15:24 , 5:17 -18, and 10:5-6) It is only Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon both of him) that was sent as a Messenger for all of mankind (Jews and Gentiles).

Isaiah 42 makes a reference to this "servant of the Lord" as coming from the land of Kedar . It is important to note that Kedar was the second son of Ishmael, a forefather of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). One of the most striking prophecies of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) stand clear in Isaiah 21: ‘“An oracle concerning Arabia: You caravans of Dedanites, who camp in the thickets of Arabia , bring water to the thirsty; you who live in Tema, bring food for the fugitives. They flee from the sword, from the drawn sword, from the bent bow and from the heat of battle. This is what the Lord says to me: "Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the pomp of Kedar will come to an end. The survivors of the bowmen, the warriors of Kedar will be few.’ The Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken.” (Isaiah 21:13-17)

This prophecy takes place in Arabia, the land of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). The "fugitives" in this case are the Prophet and his faithful Companions (may Allah be pleased with them). They fled from Makkah, leaving when Muhammad’s house was surrounded by the Quraish, drawn swords in hand. He fled to Madinah, peacefully acquired converts numbering upwards of ten thousand. Muhammad returned to fight the great Battle of Badr, in which the idolatrous Quraish, "the pomp of Kedar", suffered a crushing defeat. To this day, no Christian or Jewish Biblical scholar can generate an historic event that fits this prophecy.

Yet another prophecy of Muhammad, similar to this one, occurs in Deuteronomy 33:1-2: “And this is the blessing, where Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, the Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Se’ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran , and he came with ten thousand saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.”

The Lord coming from Sinai alludes to Moses and "[rising] up from Se’ir" refers to Jesus (peace be upon both of them), as the place of his birth was called Se’ir. The prophet who "shined forth from mount Paran " can be none other than Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). Paran is the ancient name of the region of Arabia where the children of Ishmael settled. In Arabic, Paran is "Farran", which actually refers to Makkah and literally means "two refugees." It appears as though this took its name from Hagar and Ishmael (peace be upon them both) who went to this region as refugees when Ishmael was still young. And of course, coming with ten thousand saints, or holy men, descending upon Makkah, bearing a fiery law (the Glorious Qur’an) is an unmistakable reference to Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him.

Another reference to the Prophet is given by Jesus, where Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is referred to as the "Counselor" and the "Spirit of Truth". Jesus says: “But I tell you the truth. It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.” (John 16:7)

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.” (John 16:12-14)

Since Jesus (peace be upon him) indicates that the Counselor will not come unless Jesus himself, leaves, it is virtually impossible for the Counselor to be the Holy Ghost, as some Christian scholars contend. The Holy Ghost occurs in Scripture before, during, and after Jesus’ life, so it cannot be that Jesus must leave for the Holy Ghost to arrive. It is already there. Similar to the "prophet like Moses" in Deuteronomy 18, this Counselor "will speak only what he hears." Through the Qur’an, the final revelation of Allah, and through the Sunnah, Muhammad is the one to guide us "into all truth." And both the Qur’an and Hadith tell us "what is yet to come." As for glorifying Jesus, Allah tells us in 3:56 that the Qur’an clears Jesus of the lies and speculation surrounding his life and his death.

There are a number of remaining references to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in the Bible, one where he is even mentioned by name in the original Hebrew (Song of Songs 5:9-16)! "Cheeko mame tah kim, vechulo Mohamadim." This means "His language is most sweet, and he is Muhammad." In the English translations of the Bible, Muhammad's name is translated as "altogether lovely".


It was discussed here http://www.islamicboard.com/showthre...ght=Muhammadim


But claiming prophethood to lead many people astray, causing father to fight son, friend to fight friend. If someone claims prophethood and is not genuine in there claim then surely this befits a liar, no?

Why would a man who was known among his people before his claim of prophethood as ‘al-Ameen’ (The Trustworthy), cause such hardships in his life just to bring back the belief in one God, to me that doesnt add up. The claim could come that it was for power but that is shot down, when as we know he was offered to give up his belief in the One God and become the king of Mekkah desiring whatever he wished, or being offered that the pagans of the time would worship there gods one year and then the following year everyone would worship one God, and so on.

As the Qu'ran says:

Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against Allah, or saith, "I have received inspiration," when he hath received none, or (again) who saith, "I can reveal the like of what Allah hath revealed"? If thou couldst but see how the wicked (do fare) in the flood of confusion at death! - the angels stretch forth their hands, (saying),"Yield up your souls: this day shall ye receive your reward,- a penalty of shame, for that ye used to tell lies against Allah, and scornfully to reject of His signs!" (6:93)

Who was giving him the Qu'ranic Texts, that even the most learned of poets had never seen before, one of the companions (may Allah be pleased with them), jewish/christian scholars?. Or was it he who could write? As one prophecy in the Bible says, that is exactly the way Prophet Muhammed (SWH) received his first revelation.

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." (Isaiah 29:12)


Peace

PS I read you are an english teacher, that was my favourite subject when I was at school :thumbs_up
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czgibson
08-14-2005, 10:21 AM
Greetings Khattab,
Thank you for the article. Some interesting references, particuarly the Jewish scripture, where Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name. You've asked a few questions:
Originally Posted by Khattab
But claiming prophethood to lead many people astray, causing father to fight son, friend to fight friend. If someone claims prophethood and is not genuine in there claim then surely this befits a liar, no?
Well, I believe Muhammad (pbuh) was sincere. He may have been right or wrong in what he said, but he believed what he was saying and doing was right, therefore he was not a liar.

Why would a man who was known among his people before his claim of prophethood as ‘al-Ameen’ (The Trustworthy), cause such hardships in his life just to bring back the belief in one God, to me that doesnt add up.
Well, he felt that monotheism had been corrupted and that idolatry was rife. He obviously believed his mission was so important that he was prepared to put up with any difficulties on the way.

The claim could come that it was for power but that is shot down, when as we know he was offered to give up his belief in the One God and become the king of Mekkah desiring whatever he wished, or being offered that the pagans of the time would worship there gods one year and then the following year everyone would worship one God, and so on.
I don't believe Muhammad (pbuh) began his mission with the desire for power, as I've explained above.

Who was giving him the Qu'ranic Texts, that even the most learned of poets had never seen before, one of the companions (may Allah be pleased with them), jewish/christian scholars?. Or was it he who could write? As one prophecy in the Bible says, that is exactly the way Prophet Muhammed (SWH) received his first revelation.
Since Muhammad (pbuh) couldn't read or write, I don't know where the Qur'anic revelations came from.

PS I read you are an english teacher, that was my favourite subject when I was at school
Mine too (obviously!). I love the English language - the most expressive language in the world, with more words than any other.

Peace
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Khattab
08-14-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings Khattab,
Thank you for the article. Some interesting references, particuarly the Jewish scripture, where Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name. You've asked a few questions:


Well, I believe Muhammad (pbuh) was sincere. He may have been right or wrong in what he said, but he believed what he was saying and doing was right, therefore he was not a liar.



Well, he felt that monotheism had been corrupted and that idolatry was rife. He obviously believed his mission was so important that he was prepared to put up with any difficulties on the way.



I don't believe Muhammad (pbuh) began his mission with the desire for power, as I've explained above.



Since Muhammad (pbuh) couldn't read or write, I don't know where the Qur'anic revelations came from.



Mine too (obviously!). I love the English language - the most expressive language in the world, with more words than any other.

Peace
Hi Callam,

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree, because if you tell someone something that is not true about you in this case the claiming of prophethood, and many other things such as the 'Isra and Miraj' (The Night Journey), then to me its lying if the claim is not genuine.

Surley then the following verses must apply to Muhammed (SWH) if he was not recieving inspiration:

"Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against Allah, or saith, "I have received inspiration," when he hath received none, or (again) who saith, "I can reveal the like of what Allah hath revealed"? If thou couldst but see how the wicked (do fare) in the flood of confusion at death! - the angels stretch forth their hands, (saying),"Yield up your souls: this day shall ye receive your reward,- a penalty of shame, for that ye used to tell lies against Allah, and scornfully to reject of His signs!" (6:93)

Peace
Reply

czgibson
08-14-2005, 05:16 PM
Hi Khattab,
Originally Posted by Khattab
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree, because if you tell someone something that is not true about you in this case the claiming of prophethood, and many other things such as the 'Isra and Miraj' (The Night Journey), then to me its lying if the claim is not genuine.
I think I see why we're disagreeing here. I see a difference between a conscious lie and an unconscious falsehood. I believe that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) believed he was a prophet, and that the visions of the night journey were real to him. However, since, in my view, there is no god, and also, in my view, visions of the kind in the night journey exist only in the mind of the visionary and do not actually constitute anything real, I therefore believe Muhammad (pbuh) was unconsciously perpetuating several falsehoods. This is different from deliberately lying.

Peace
Reply

Khattab
08-14-2005, 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Hi Khattab,


I think I see why we're disagreeing here. I see a difference between a conscious lie and an unconscious falsehood. I believe that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) believed he was a prophet, and that the visions of the night journey were real to him. However, since, in my view, there is no god, and also, in my view, visions of the kind in the night journey exist only in the mind of the visionary and do not actually constitute anything real, I therefore believe Muhammad (pbuh) was unconsciously perpetuating several falsehoods. This is different from deliberately lying.

Peace
Hi Callum,

So are you saying he was not a liar, but in a way slightly crazy? In my opinion if you dont believe he was a Prophet of the Almighty, then there are only two more options one that he was a liar or the other that he was mad.

The night journey was not a vision ie dream, but it was in fact a physical journey, this is the view held by the vast majority of muslims.

Peace
Reply

czgibson
08-14-2005, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by Khattab
So are you saying he was not a liar, but in a way slightly crazy? In my opinion if you dont believe he was a Prophet of the Almighty, then there are only two more options one that he was a liar or the other that he was mad.
Well, I wouldn't say he was mad per se; deluded, yes, but not mad.

The night journey was not a vision ie dream, but it was in fact a physical journey, this is the view held by the vast majority of muslims.
I thought it was a physical journey with visions along the way? Actually, I don't know the story in detail, so I don't really know what I'm talking about here! Where can it be found in the Qur'an?

Peace
Reply

Khattab
08-14-2005, 06:01 PM
Hi Callam,

The Night Journey can be found in the Holy Qur'an in Surah 17, the first verse.

"Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things)."

It is only briefly mentioned but to read about it I would recommend this link http://www.--------------/al-miraj/1.htm as it describes the journey from the Quran and Hadeeths.

Peace

Edit: for your info 'Bait al *Muqaddas' is Jerusalem
Reply

czgibson
08-14-2005, 06:30 PM
Thanks for the info, Khattab.

It's refreshed my memory on the details of the story. So, I now see that when you said the majority of Muslims believe this was a physical journey, you mean that they genuinely believe that Muhammad (pbuh) travelled to the heavens.

I do not believe this actually happened, for a number of reasons. The first is that the evidence for it actually occurring is very slight. It is mentioned (briefly) in the Qur'an, and also in the hadiths. In order to believe such an extraordinary story (in fact, for any "miraculous" story) I would need much more evidence than that.

Also, the story relies on belief in certain other concepts which I see no reason to believe in. Muhammad (pbuh) is said to have consulted with the spirits of previous prophets as well as angels. Now, since I see no reason to believe in an afterlife, or heaven and hell, I'm obviously not convinced by anecdotal evidence of this nature. Is there any independent evidence for the existence of angels, for example? Has even a single angel ever actually been observed by anybody?

In some traditions, scepticism of the kind I've just exhibited is seen as a failing, an indulgence, an error. However, in the fields of science and philosophy, such scepticism is a great advantage. We should not believe anything, unless we have good reasons for doing so. Similarly, if the reasons for believing or disbelieving something are weak on both sides, then the scientist's answer should be "I don't know."

So, was Muhammad (pbuh) crazy or a liar? My answer, at this stage, is "I don't know."

Peace
Reply

Khattab
08-14-2005, 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Thanks for the info, Khattab.

It's refreshed my memory on the details of the story. So, I now see that when you said the majority of Muslims believe this was a physical journey, you mean that they genuinely believe that Muhammad (pbuh) travelled to the heavens.

I do not believe this actually happened, for a number of reasons. The first is that the evidence for it actually occurring is very slight. It is mentioned (briefly) in the Qur'an, and also in the hadiths. In order to believe such an extraordinary story (in fact, for any "miraculous" story) I would need much more evidence than that.

Also, the story relies on belief in certain other concepts which I see no reason to believe in. Muhammad (pbuh) is said to have consulted with the spirits of previous prophets as well as angels. Now, since I see no reason to believe in an afterlife, or heaven and hell, I'm obviously not convinced by anecdotal evidence of this nature. Is there any independent evidence for the existence of angels, for example? Has even a single angel ever actually been observed by anybody?

In some traditions, scepticism of the kind I've just exhibited is seen as a failing, an indulgence, an error. However, in the fields of science and philosophy, such scepticism is a great advantage. We should not believe anything, unless we have good reasons for doing so. Similarly, if the reasons for believing or disbelieving something are weak on both sides, then the scientist's answer should be "I don't know."

So, was Muhammad (pbuh) crazy or a liar? My answer, at this stage, is "I don't know."

Peace
Peace,

Yes we believe he did physically travel through the heavens, all prophets in there time have been given miracles Jesus (PBUH) was able to give the dead life, cure those blind etc only through the permission of God alone, Moses (PBUH) was able to split the sea and his rod turned into a snake (I guess you know this story) , all by the permission of God.

The chances of someone travelling from Mekkah to Jerusalem in one night and returning was impossible in those days, the people of the time laughed when they heard what was said. and even some neo-muslims became apostates after hearing the news.

Because it is briefly mentioned in the Qur'an does that mean it is not true? 25 of the Sahabah (Companions) reported narratives regarding it in the hadeeths, including Umar Ibn Al Khattab (Second Khalifa) and Ali al-Murtada (Fourth Khalifa), may Allah be pleased with them.

Even the testimony of a non-muslim of the time Abu Sufyan, which can be found in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim, where the Prophet Muhammed (SWH) had a letter sent to the Roman Emperor of the time, once he recieved it he asked for all the arab traders who where there to be gathered, he then asked them regarding Muhammed (SWH). Abu Sufyan who was going to use this moment to speak ill of the Prophet (SWH) thought otherwise, as if it was found out he was lying about him he feared being looked down upon by the Emperor and his traders, and having the label of a liar. Instead he said as narrated " I shall describe before you what he claims to have happened to regarding which you yourself will realise that it was a lie. Heraclius asked "What event is that?" Abu Sufyan said: This claimant of prophethood say that, one night, he left Makkah, reached Masjid Al-Aqsa and retuned to us in Mekkah.

At that time the leading scholar of Elia (Jerusalem) was there and standing close to the emperor. He disclosed that he knew that night. The emperor turned to him and inquired as to how he came to know of it. He said that as a matter of habit he would not sleep until he had locked all the gates of Bayt Al Maqdus (Jerusalem). That night he habitually closed all gates except from one which would not shut, despite his efforts, he then called his staff they too could not close it. Rendered helpless the technicians and carpenters where called. They looked at the gate and decided that the weight of the building has come to rest on the panels of the gate. There was no way it could be closed before morning. They said when morning comes they would see how this could be fixed. As soon as it was morning he came back to the gate , where he noticed someone had made a hole in the rock close to the gate, of Al Aqsa which gave the impression some animal was tied down there. At that time he told his colleagues maybe Allah has caused this gate not to close because some prophet was to come here. And then he also stated that this blessed prophet has offered his prayers in Al Aqsa". After this further details are described.

A former Christian Scholar and priest, Rev. Abdul-Ahad Dawud who wrote the book "Muhammed In the Bible", in it he has described a prophecy in the Bible that talks about it. As I no longer have this book now I will try and get it back and hopefully post it up for you.

Below is Sahih Bukhari 3322 that is of some relevance to the previously narrated story I have just found:

Abu Sufyan, may Allah be pleased with him, said:
I went out (on a mercantile venture) during the period (of truce) between me and the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). While I was in Syria, the letter of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was handed over to Heraclius (Caesar), the Emperor of Rome (who was on a visit to Jerusalem at that time). The letter was brought by Dihyah Al-Kalbi who delivered it to the governor of Busra. The governor of Busra passed it on to Heraclius, (On receiving the letter), he (Heraclius) said: Is there anyone from the people of this man who claims that he is a prophet? People said: Yes. So, I was called along with a few others from the Quraish. We were admitted to Heraclius and he seated us before him. He asked: Which of you has closer kinship with the man who claims that he is a prophet? Abu Sufyan said: I said: I. So they seated me in front of him and seated my companions behind me. Then he called his interpreter and said to him: Tell them that I am going to ask this fellow (i.e. Abu Sufyan) about the man who claims that he is a prophet. If he tells me a lie, then refute him. Abu Sufyan told (the narrator): By Allah, if there was not the fear that falsehood would be imputed to me I would have lied. (Then) Heraclius said to his interpreter: Inquire from him about his ancestry. I said: He is of good ancestry among us. He asked: Has there been a king among his ancestors? I said: No. He asked: Did you accuse him of falsehood before he proclaimed his prophethood? I said: No. He asked: Who are his followers, people of high status or low status? I said: (They are) of low status. He asked: Are they increasing in number or decreasing? I said: No, they are rather increasing. He asked: Does anyone give up his religion, being dissatisfied with it, after having embraced it? I said: No. He asked: Have you been at war with him? I said: Yes. He asked: How did you fare in that war? I said: The war between us and him has been wavering like a bucket, up at one turn and down at the other (i.e. the victory has been shared between us and him by turns). Sometimes he suffered loss at our hands and sometimes we suffered loss at his (hand). He asked: Has he (ever) violated his covenant? I said: No, but we have recently concluded a peace treaty with him for a period and we do not know what he is going to do about it. (Abu Sufyan said on oath that he could not interpolate in this dialogue anything from himself more than these words). He asked: Did anyone make the proclamation (of prophethood) before him? I said: No. He (now) said to his interpreter: Tell him, I asked him about his ancestry and he had replied that he had the best ancestry. This is the case with Prophets; they are the descendants of the noblest among their people (Addressing Abu Sufyan), he continued: I asked you if there had been a king among his ancestors. You said that there had been none. If there had been a king among his ancestors, I would have said that he was a man demanding his ancestral kingdom. I asked you about his followers whether they were people of high or low status, and you said that they were of rather low status. Such are the followers of the Prophets. I asked you whether you used to accuse him of falsehood before he proclaimed his prophethood, and you said that you did not. So I have understood that when he did not allow himself to tell a lie about the people, he would never go to the length of forging a falsehood about Allah. I asked you whether anyone renounced his religion being dissatisfied with it after he had embraced it, and you replied in the negative. Faith is like this when it enters the depth of the heart (it perpetuates them). I asked you whether his followers were increasing or decreasing. You said they were increasing. Faith is like this until it reaches its consummation. I asked you whether you had been at war with him, and you replied that you had been and that the victory between you and him had been shared by turns, sometimes he suffered loss at your hand and sometimes you suffering loss at his. This is how the Prophets are tried before the final victory is theirs. I asked you whether he (ever) violated his covenant, and you said that he did not. This is how the Prophets behave. They never violate (their covenants). I asked you whether anyone before him had proclaimed the same thing, and you replied in the negative. I said: If anyone had made the same proclamation before, I would have thought that he was a man following what had been proclaimed before. (Then) he asked: What does he enjoin upon you? I said: He exhorts us to offer Salah, to pay Zakah, to show due regard to kinship and to practice chastity. He said: If what you have told about him is true, he is certainly a Prophet. I knew that he was to appear but I did not think that he would be from among you. If I knew that I would be able to reach him, I would love to meet him; and if I had been with him, I would have washed his feet (out of reverence). His dominion would certainly extend to this place which is under my feet. Then he called for the letter of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and read it. The letter ran as follows: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious and Most Merciful. From Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, to Heraclius, the Emperor of the Romans. Peace be upon him who follows the guidance. After this, I extend to you the invitation to accept Islam. Embrace Islam and you will be safe. Accept Islam, and Allah will give you double the reward. And if you turn away, upon you will be the sin of your subjects. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims" When he had finished reading the letter, noise and confused clamor was raised around him, and he ordered us to leave. Accordingly, we left. (Addressing my companions) while we were coming out (of the palace), I said: Ibn Abu Kabshah (referring sarcastically to the Holy Prophet) has come to wield a great power. Lo! (even) the king of Banu Al-Asfar (the Romans) is afraid of him. I continued to believe that the authority of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) would triumph until Allah imbued me with (the spirit of) Islam.

There is also he story of the 3 eye witness's who saw Muhammed (SWH), hopefully Ansar or one of the others could post this up as I cant find it.

Has anyone ever seen oxygen? Yet we believe it. The angel Gabrial appeared to the prophets as well as to the companions, but he came in human form, in a very famous hadeeth. This all part of the unseen, such as the world of the jinns.

"Such as fear not the meeting with Us (for Judgment) say: "Why are not the angels sent down to us, or (why) do we not see our Lord?" Indeed they have an arrogant conceit of themselves, and mighty is the insolence of their impiety!" (25:21)


Sorry for such a long post :-[

Peace :thumbs_up
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Ansar Al-'Adl
08-15-2005, 02:19 AM
:sl:
Thread split.
:w:
Reply

czgibson
08-15-2005, 10:55 PM
Greetings Khattab,
Thank you so much for your post. You've clearly gone to a lot of trouble to locate all the information you provided. I can't really comment on it at this stage as I'm still digesting it all! I would like to comment on one point you made, however:
Originally Posted by Khattab
Has anyone ever seen oxygen? Yet we believe it. The angel Gabrial appeared to the prophets as well as to the companions, but he came in human form, in a very famous hadeeth. This all part of the unseen, such as the world of the jinns.
I assume your question about oxygen refers to my question about angels. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) You'll notice I didn't say "Has anyone ever seen an angel?" but "Has anyone ever observed an angel?" Although the words "see" and "observe" are often used as synonyms in common parlance, there is a difference between them. Observation can include any information taken into the mind using any of the senses. Although oxygen is invisible, it has been observed in many different ways, and there are standard tests to determine whether it is present or not. In consequence, we don't just believe it's there, we know it is. The rest of the unseen world you speak of, including angels and djinns, is not observable or testable as oxygen is.

Sorry for such a long post
I'm frequently guilty of this myself... :-[

Peace
Reply

Khattab
08-28-2005, 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings Khattab,
Thank you so much for your post. You've clearly gone to a lot of trouble to locate all the information you provided. I can't really comment on it at this stage as I'm still digesting it all! I would like to comment on one point you made, however:

I assume your question about oxygen refers to my question about angels. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) You'll notice I didn't say "Has anyone ever seen an angel?" but "Has anyone ever observed an angel?" Although the words "see" and "observe" are often used as synonyms in common parlance, there is a difference between them. Observation can include any information taken into the mind using any of the senses. Although oxygen is invisible, it has been observed in many different ways, and there are standard tests to determine whether it is present or not. In consequence, we don't just believe it's there, we know it is. The rest of the unseen world you speak of, including angels and djinns, is not observable or testable as oxygen is.



Peace
Hi Callum,

Apologies for late response.

I understand what you have said, and it is true, however I would like to add there are people who have seen angels and djinns, though you are correct in saying the unseen world is not observable as oxygen is.

Peace
Reply

root
08-29-2005, 09:45 AM
I understand what you have said, and it is true, however I would like to add there are people who have seen angels and djinns
But we have probably witnessed everything from Aliens to UFO's to Ghosts and even Elvis. We should be cautious when we come to such issues.

As as an extra note, science recently discovered that the entire system of the brain that interprets the signals sent from the eye completely "shuts down" for a split second while we blink,

Take a piece of card and write on it "can you tell me me what this says". quickly show someone and ask them to read out loud what it says. Most people will miss the double "me", that is because they are not reading it and the visual cortex is not visually interpretating as we read. As a child, I would sometimes hear my mother calling me and after getting up and going downstairs I would realise she was at work yet I swear blind I heard her call me, had my mother been dead I would mistakenly beleive it was something more than what it actually was.....
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