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noodles
06-08-2007, 04:18 PM
I want your thoughts on this subject matter.
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KAding
06-08-2007, 04:42 PM
What do you mean with 'extremism'?
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Fishman
06-08-2007, 04:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
What do you mean with 'extremism'?
:sl:
Good question.
:w:
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noodles
06-08-2007, 04:49 PM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extremism

ex·trem·ism /ɪkˈstrimɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ik-stree-miz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
a tendency or disposition to go to extremes or an instance of going to extremes, esp. in political matters: leftist extremism; the extremism of the Nazis.

ex·trem·ist (ĭk-strē'mĭst) Pronunciation Key
n. One who advocates or resorts to measures beyond the norm, especially in politics.
and by nationalistic, I mean willing to die for one's country. (being patriotic)

[forgive me I'm not much fluent in English and therefore am trying to find the proper words to express my understanding]
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England
06-08-2007, 04:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noodles
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extremism



and by nationalistic, I mean willing to die for one's country. (being patriotic)

[forgive me I'm not much fluent in English and therefore am trying to find the proper words to express my understanding]
There's nothing wrong with wanted to die for your country. I would expect the majority of British people to die for their country in Britain's time of need. I wouldn't expect people to join the army to fight a stupid little war to give people "a better life" in a country I couldn't give a toss about.

But if their country was being invaded then by force I would expect many would die for their country just as they were preparing to do had the Germans landed on British soil. Britons are fighters, warriors. There's that Viking, Anglo-Saxon blood in us.
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Fishman
06-08-2007, 04:59 PM
:sl:
Nationalism has caused just about every major war in recorded history.
:w:
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England
06-08-2007, 05:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Nationalism has caused just about every major war in recorded history.
:w:
Religion causes wars. As I said I expect anyone in this country die for their country in its time of need. The United Kingdom is a fortress.
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islamirama
06-08-2007, 05:11 PM
Nationalism is a religion as well. You worship your land, you live or die for it just as the faith bound people do. You will do anything for your religion (coutry). Religion is safer as it only wants to increase number of members, where as nationalism wants to increase its amount of land.
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England
06-08-2007, 05:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Nationalism is a religion as well. You worship your land, you live or die for it just as the faith bound people do. You will do anything for your religion (coutry). Religion is safer as it only wants to increase number of members, where as nationalism wants to increase its amount of land.
Um... nope you're wrong. I'm a nationalist and I don't want anymore land. This land I'm living on is the only piece of land I am particularly interested in. If anyone tries to take over our land then we should protect it, this is OUR home, our people and our country.
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Abdul Fattah
06-08-2007, 05:19 PM
The answer to nationalism:

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). 49:13
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Woodrow
06-08-2007, 05:20 PM
To some extent each and every person will be nationalistic. no matter where you live if a common enemy where to invade and threaten to destroy your home, kill your family and impression every body. You would probably take up arms against them and be willing to die to keep the invaders out. That would be nationalistic, but I doubt if it would be extreme.

On the other hand a person can live in a country, hate the country for whatever reason he chooses and decide to wage his own personal war against his own country. That would not be nationalistic, but it would be extremism.

So depending on the situation and the conditions either answer would be correct.
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- Qatada -
06-08-2007, 05:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
The answer to nationalism:

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). 49:13

:salamext:


Also this :)


The Prophet said: 'There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for a fair-skinned person over a person with dark skin, nor for a dark-skinned person over a person with fair skin. Whoever is more pious and God-fearing is more deserving of honour.' (Musnad Ahmad)
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Cognescenti
06-08-2007, 05:43 PM
There are no extreme nationalists. Extremists have hijacked the true meaning of nationalism. I wish the media would stop portraying extremists as nationalists.


Nationalism is really an outgrowth of tribalism which is an outgrowth of filial attachments which are dictated by our biology. It is in our brains. It is intrinsic for us to divide ourselves as "us" vs "them". Lions and Chimps and Gorillas do it too, they are simply not as adept at forming larger organizations. It takes conscious effort on our part to resist this pull.

Of course, people divide themselves by other measures, as well (ethnicity, language, physical alikeness, religion, political belief). It is unusual for for national identity to trump ethnicity in a stable fashion , for eg., when an ethnic group is cohesive geographically.
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islamirama
06-08-2007, 05:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
Um... nope you're wrong. I'm a nationalist and I don't want anymore land. This land I'm living on is the only piece of land I am particularly interested in. If anyone tries to take over our land then we should protect it, this is OUR home, our people and our country.
you have the right to your land, and to protect your home, your people and yoru country, and so do iraqis, afghans, palestiniasn who are fighting the occupation of their land. You are happy with your land but your leaders aren't, they colonized the world once and now they are going back again and democracy means nothing if people can't even stop them.
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Abdul Fattah
06-08-2007, 05:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
To some extent each and every person will be nationalistic. no matter where you live if a common enemy where to invade and threaten to destroy your home, kill your family and impression every body. You would probably take up arms against them and be willing to die to keep the invaders out. That would be nationalistic, but I doubt if it would be extreme.

On the other hand a person can live in a country, hate the country for whatever reason he chooses and decide to wage his own personal war against his own country. That would not be nationalistic, but it would be extremism.

So depending on the situation and the conditions either answer would be correct.
What does that have to do with nationalism? the reason one would attack the invadors is to protect the weak and offended, not because teh invaders have a different nationality. Because if it were people of teh same nationality doing this I think the chance of me picking up arms against an offender is equally great. To me nationality would have nothing to do with it.
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KAding
06-08-2007, 05:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noodles
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extremism



and by nationalistic, I mean willing to die for one's country. (being patriotic)

[forgive me I'm not much fluent in English and therefore am trying to find the proper words to express my understanding]
The problem is. 'Nationalism' is an ideology, 'extremism' is merely a position within an ideology. That makes the question a bit nonsensical.

If you are a nationalist extremist, you are indeed being extremist because you take a black or white approach to the nation. Extreme nationalists are very exclusive, they are aggressive towards other nations and make it harder (if not impossible) for other people to join their nation. More moderate nationalists are more open to others outside of the nation.
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KAding
06-08-2007, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Nationalism has caused just about every major war in recorded history.
:w:
Nationalism is just one of the many ideologies that cultivate the 'us' vs 'them' mindset. Not unlike many religions, like Judaism and Islam.
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KAding
06-08-2007, 06:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
The answer to nationalism:

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). 49:13
I've said this about 10 times on this forum already, but I think it is worth repeating :statisfie. Islam is not against nationalism, it is only against nationalism based on anything but Islam. What else is this whole concept of the 'Ummah' ruled as an 'Islamic state' for the 'Muslim people'? Give me one characteristic of nationalism that is not also present in Islam.
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*charisma*
06-08-2007, 06:07 PM
Assalamu Alaikum

as far as I know, nationalism isn't even allowed...

Nationalism does nothing but cause more separation. Nationalism is pride of one's country and pride belongs only to Allah subhana wa ta'ala, so there's no need for us to have nationalism especially when our ummah is in its worst state because of disunity.

"Leave it. It is Rotten" [Bukhari & Muslim] refers to all forms of Asabiyah, nationalism, racism, and patriotism.

Grouping the Muslims on tribalistic lines is clearly forbidden. It is narrated by Abu Daud that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said, "He is not one us who calls for `Asabiyah, (nationalism/tribalism) or who fights for `Asabiyah or who dies for `Asabiyah."

" ...People should give up their pride in nations because this is a coal from the coals of hell-fire. If they do not give this up Allah (swt) will consider them lower than a lowly worm which pushes itself through khur (feces)." [Abu Dawd and Tirmidhi].

You can do a google search on it. Here's some more evidence though:
http://www.islamic-world.net/islamic-state/evidence.htm

fi aman Allah
wa'alaikum asalaam
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Cognescenti
06-08-2007, 06:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
..... Give me one characteristic of nationalism that is not also present in Islam.

...soccer hooligans

...partisanship among judges in Olympic gymnastics scoring

...haggling over fishing rights :X
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Abdul Fattah
06-08-2007, 06:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I've said this about 10 times on this forum already, but I think it is worth repeating :statisfie. Islam is not against nationalism, it is only against nationalism based on anything but Islam. What else is this whole concept of the 'Ummah' ruled as an 'Islamic state' for the 'Muslim people'? Give me one characteristic of nationalism that is not also present in Islam.
Nationalism is always based on nationality. Nationalism cannot be faith-based. Ummah has nothing to do with nationality as Islam is a religion for the whole of mankind. Like the verse made clear, in Islam we believe that someone can only be superior based on his actions (good person better then bad person) and not on the place they were born or the race they have. That's the difference between nationalism and Islamic ummah.
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Cognescenti
06-08-2007, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Nationalism is always based on nationality. Nationalism cannot be faith-based. Ummah has nothing to do with nationality as Islam is a religion for the whole of mankind. Like the verse made clear, in Islam we believe that someone can only be superior based on his actions (good person better then bad person) and not on the place they were born or the race they have. That's the difference between nationalism and Islamic ummah.

Abdul;

I think you missed what I take to be Kading's point. His point seems to be that the concept of Ummah has many features akin to nationalism...collective identity, collective sense of purpose, shared values, collective defence against outsiders, duty to others within the group...etc etc.
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Keltoi
06-08-2007, 08:16 PM
It depends on what form of nationalism we are talking about and how that nationalism manifests itself. Patriotism can manifest itself in extreme ways, or it can simply be a sense of pride in nationality and the desire to make a country better...or it can be a blind motivation to justify almost any act.
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duskiness
06-08-2007, 09:27 PM
this discussion is quite strange. May it is just a case o my mother tongue but there is a difference between nationalism (extreme-right ideology claiming that one nation is superior to others) and patriotism (which is rather a feeling, connection, love of one's country/nation/culture without any need to prove that other are inferior)
Degenerated patriotism may turn to nationalism, like believing person can turn into religious fanatic.
If someone is willing to die for his homeland it doesn't make him nationalist.
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Abdul Fattah
06-08-2007, 09:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Abdul;

I think you missed what I take to be Kading's point. His point seems to be that the concept of Ummah has many features akin to nationalism...collective identity, collective sense of purpose, shared values, collective defence against outsiders, duty to others within the group...etc etc.
Well if that was indeed his point then I did not miss it but responded to it adequately.

Just because something is similar doesn't mean it's the same. There is nothing wrong with collective identity, purpose, shared values, defense and duty. However there is something wrong with nationalism, because nationalism is a form of positive discrimination for people of the same race.
So if Kading's point would have been that Islam is equally worse as nationalism because of those shared values, then I responded to it adequately by pointing out that only the positive and/or neutral qualities are shared and not the negative ones.
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Zman
06-08-2007, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
There's nothing wrong with wanted to die for your country. I would expect the majority of British people to die for their country in Britain's time of need.
So, in your opinion, since it's ok to die for one's country, wouldn't it be ok to die for one's God?

I wouldn't expect people to join the army to fight a stupid little war to give people "a better life" in a country I couldn't give a toss about.
Are you referring to Iraq?

If so, do you still believe we went there to liberate them (the original name for our little intervention was Operation Iraqi Liberation), introduce them to deMOCKracy, and to give them a better life?

Britons are fighters, warriors. There's that Viking, Anglo-Saxon blood in us.

So much for warriors who want to become vegetarians :statisfie
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Fishman
06-08-2007, 10:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
There's nothing wrong with wanted to die for your country. I would expect the majority of British people to die for their country in Britain's time of need. I wouldn't expect people to join the army to fight a stupid little war to give people "a better life" in a country I couldn't give a toss about.
:sl:
Would you fight for Britain if it became fascist and America was trying to invade?
:w:
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Zman
06-08-2007, 10:13 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

I didn't vote, because I think you should of had a third option, may be called "it depends."

But my answer is Patriotism is good, as long as it isn't blind patriotism, where you'll do anything for your country (as in atrocities, illegal/immoral wars), etc.

Oddly, in America, we use patriotism, for it represents something positive and noble.

And we reserve nationalism for the Third World, since we make it to seem as something negative.

And the Third World sees nationalism as something positive/patriotic.

Moderation in everything is essential...
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Cognescenti
06-08-2007, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Well if that was indeed his point then I did not miss it but responded to it adequately.

Just because something is similar doesn't mean it's the same. There is nothing wrong with collective identity, purpose, shared values, defense and duty. However there is something wrong with nationalism, because nationalism is a form of positive discrimination for people of the same race.
So if Kading's point would have been that Islam is equally worse as nationalism because of those shared values, then I responded to it adequately by pointing out that only the positive and/or neutral qualities are shared and not the negative ones.

Except that in the case of the US, which is often accused of being overly nationalistic, we are not of the same race (at least not now).
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Cognescenti
06-08-2007, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
:sl:/Peace To All

I didn't vote, because I think you should of had a third option, may be called "it depends."

But my answer is Patriotism is good, as long as it isn't blind patriotism, where you'll do anything for your country (as in atrocities, illegal/immoral wars), etc.

Oddly, in America, we use patriotism, for it represents something positive and noble.

And we reserve nationalism for the Third World, since we make it to seem as something negative.

And the Third World sees nationalism as something positive/patriotic.

Moderation in everything is essential...
Good point. about different perspectives on nationalism vs patriotism
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Zman
06-09-2007, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
cultivate the 'us' vs 'them' mindset.

I think that tribal mentality is in about every human being and their actions.

Between a group within a family, families, sports, corporations, states, etc.

Even between individuals. Your interests or the groups interests outweigh the other sides.

People tend to close ranks to face a common foe...
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KAding
06-10-2007, 01:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Nationalism is always based on nationality. Nationalism cannot be faith-based. Ummah has nothing to do with nationality as Islam is a religion for the whole of mankind. Like the verse made clear, in Islam we believe that someone can only be superior based on his actions (good person better then bad person) and not on the place they were born or the race they have. That's the difference between nationalism and Islamic ummah.
I disagree. The definition of nationalism you appear to be using is not the standard definition. Nationalism does not need to be based on genetic attributes like race or ethnicity. If it would be, what 'race' is American nationalism based on for example? What 'ethnicity' are the British? Some nations do indeed base their identity on ethnicity, but many other don't. In the United States it is based on vague notions like the 'American dream'. Nor is 'the place they were born' the defining factor, since many first-generation immigrants often join the nation the immigrated too, either formally by applying for citizenship or informally by somehow bonding with their place of residence.

Some features of nationalism:
* A common identity and a sense of brotherhood
* Common myths about heritage and history
* A desire to self-rule, a desire to create a state that encompasses the nation
* Exclusionary (us in the nation vs them outside the nation)

All these features are present in Islam. You have a common identity and bond with your 'brothers' and 'sisters'. You clearly have common ideas about your heritage and history as it is explained in the Qu'ran and hadiths. Muslims have a desire to create an Islamic state encompassing all Muslims. This state is expected to ruled by Muslims to the benefit of all Muslims. Even the institutions within such a state have been made explicit (Islamic courts, caliphs, shura, etc). A clear seperation is also made between Muslims 'Dar al-Islam' and non-Muslims in 'Dar al-Harb'. Few other religions share these features with Islam. If this sense of brotherhood and desire to create a state for all Muslims is not nationalism, what is it then?
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KAding
06-10-2007, 02:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Well if that was indeed his point then I did not miss it but responded to it adequately.

Just because something is similar doesn't mean it's the same. There is nothing wrong with collective identity, purpose, shared values, defense and duty. However there is something wrong with nationalism, because nationalism is a form of positive discrimination for people of the same race.
So if Kading's point would have been that Islam is equally worse as nationalism because of those shared values, then I responded to it adequately by pointing out that only the positive and/or neutral qualities are shared and not the negative ones.
Race has nothing to do with nationalism as such. Race can and has been used by extreme nationalists (like Nazis) to define 'the nation', but it is not at all a requirement. More often ideologies or culture are the defining attribute. Islam is such an ideology and to large extends dictates culture. My assertion is not only that Islam shares 'some' features with nationalism, let alone just the positive ones, but that it rather shares all of them!
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barney
06-10-2007, 03:10 AM
Nationalism in it's true form is pride of country, its acheivements , its ethos and its people.

If Nationalism is taken to a EXTREME...you get Facism.
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Pygoscelis
06-10-2007, 03:14 AM
I voted that nationalism is extremism, but only because of the popular understanding of what "nationalism" means where I'm from.

Where I'm at:

Patriotism is being proud of ones country and willing to defend it from attack.

Nationalism is holding ones country above all others as superior and holding its citizens as inherently superior to all others.

Patriotism is a sense of community belonging.

Nationalism is a sense of cultural superiority.

Patriotism leads to team work.

Nationalism leads to wars of aggression.

The world wars happened because of German Nationalism. Many others have also come from nationalism.

It can sometimes be hard to tell patiotism an nationalism apart, but I think the above are the signs to look for.
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Hashim_507
06-10-2007, 04:59 AM
I am not a nationalist..:)
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Fishman
06-10-2007, 10:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The world wars happened because of German Nationalism.
:sl:
Only the second world war was caused by German nationalism. The first was caused by one of Germany's allies (Austria-Hungary) attacking one of Russia's allies (Serbia) after Serbian terrorists killed an Austro-Hungarian leader, and the complex web of alliances lead to a huge war. German nationalism made the Germans more willing to fight, as they saw the conflict as a chance to defeat national enemies, and calve out the empire that they always wanted. But Germany would probably still have fought the Entente anyway, even if they were not nationalists.

But this is a bit off topic, not to mention rather pointless...
:w:
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Thanaa
06-10-2007, 05:00 PM
Many of the Welsh in the county where I live are Nationalists.
Ive been refused permission to attend Interviews for Jobs-and told that I cant have jobs-because Im English and dont speak Welsh.
Ive also been verbally attacked at work-one woman managed to reduce me to tears-because Ive explained to people that I cant speak Welsh, and they dont like it. The most recent incident was the week before this last one.
These people behave that way because they are Nationalists.
:raging: I cant attend lessons, because the free ones are at times when Im working, and even if I could get time off to study, I cant afford to lose the money, and the ones I would need to pay for I cant afford. If I had been able to find a good job, then Id be able to afford lessons...its a vicious circle.
Also, all Welsh are bilingual...so Its not like I cant communicate with them.
Nationalism is not not necessarily extreme...It just allows extremism to breed.
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Cognescenti
06-10-2007, 06:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thanaa
Many of the Welsh in the county where I live are Nationalists.
Ive been refused permission to attend Interviews for Jobs-and told that I cant have jobs-because Im English and dont speak Welsh.
Ive also been verbally attacked at work-one woman managed to reduce me to tears-because Ive explained to people that I cant speak Welsh, and they dont like it. The most recent incident was the week before this last one.
These people behave that way because they are Nationalists.
:raging: I cant attend lessons, because the free ones are at times when Im working, and even if I could get time off to study, I cant afford to lose the money, and the ones I would need to pay for I cant afford. If I had been able to find a good job, then Id be able to afford lessons...its a vicious circle.
Also, all Welsh are bilingual...so Its not like I cant communicate with them.
Nationalism is not not necessarily extreme...It just allows extremism to breed.
Thanaa;

They are merely registering their displeasure with an "occupying force". And it has been going on a lot longer than the occupation of the West Bank. Better a bit of harsh treatment at the workplace rather than strapping bombs to their children's chests, eh? I don't imagine Welsh is easy to learn. Why don't you move, to England? :)
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Ubaidah
06-11-2007, 09:56 AM
I'll simply answer this question like this: I love my country and I love Islam. There is not a "one or the other" situation in my eyes. I love the U.S. because I believe it's the greatest country in the world, and I love Islam because it's brought be into the light of God.
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HBot 5000
06-11-2007, 12:00 PM
I would say no but their are some examples (Nazi Germany) that would seem to fall into the above mould.

England i love England :) (the country hehe) but i would not and shall not die for it. I would only die for one cause and that is Allah's :arabic4: cause.

I was taught a set of ideals by England that i grew up with and yes very often defended verbally. But as i have matured, i have seen those values i hold so dear being violated by none other than England, the country that i love so much. So why on earth would i defend it? I still love England it has taught me so much including the meaning of hypocrisy.

Allah :arabic4: has taught me the truth and never has let me down as England (the country) has +o(

P.s. Dam it England (the person) - change your name :)
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Thanaa
06-11-2007, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Thanaa;

They are merely registering their displeasure with an "occupying force". And it has been going on a lot longer than the occupation of the West Bank. Better a bit of harsh treatment at the workplace rather than strapping bombs to their children's chests, eh? I don't imagine Welsh is easy to learn. Why don't you move, to England? :)
"Occupying Force"?
What occupying force?
You lack brain cells my friend, if you think that discrimination is okay in any way, shape or form. I can tell you now, that if it happened to you, you wouldnt coming out with such Crap.
And I am going back to England. Fast.
No. Welsh Isnt easy to learn-for me anyway-I tried with a book and cassette, and it didnt work. Couldnt do it.
I am lucky though-all that Ive been through has taught me the real value of manners, and it has reminded me that I have no excuse to hurt peoples feelings just because I can open my mouth.
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Cognescenti
06-11-2007, 05:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thanaa
"Occupying Force"?
What occupying force?
You lack brain cells my friend, if you think that discrimination is okay in any way, shape or form. I can tell you now, that if it happened to you, you wouldnt coming out with such Crap.
And I am going back to England. Fast.
No. Welsh Isnt easy to learn-for me anyway-I tried with a book and cassette, and it didnt work. Couldnt do it.
I am lucky though-all that Ive been through has taught me the real value of manners, and it has reminded me that I have no excuse to hurt peoples feelings just because I can open my mouth.
Relax, Thanaa. No need to be slinging insults about how many brain cells I have. It was satirical. My reference was to the English "occupation" of Wales.

BTW, are you saying they discriminated against you soley because you didn't speak Welsh or for some other reason?

What you experienced was Lenguaphobia. It happens in Quebec to non French speakers in Catalonia to speakers of Castillian Spanish and even in Los Angeles if you are one of the few left who still speak English.
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August
06-11-2007, 05:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Nationalism is holding ones country above all others as superior and holding its citizens as inherently superior to all others.
I'd have to disagree on this point. I think a better way to look at it is putting your country's best and legitimate interests first. I don't want the United States to trample over the rights of the rest of the world, but I do expect the President to consider what is best for my country first. This I feel is nationalism. One can be deeply patriotic and still wish their country to be a doormat. Don't ask me how, but I do know people who feel that way.
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England
06-11-2007, 10:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HBot 5000
I would say no but their are some examples (Nazi Germany) that would seem to fall into the above mould.

England i love England :) (the country hehe) but i would not and shall not die for it. I would only die for one cause and that is Allah's :arabic4: cause.

I was taught a set of ideals by England that i grew up with and yes very often defended verbally. But as i have matured, i have seen those values i hold so dear being violated by none other than England, the country that i love so much. So why on earth would i defend it? I still love England it has taught me so much including the meaning of hypocrisy.

Allah :arabic4: has taught me the truth and never has let me down as England (the country) has +o(

P.s. Dam it England (the person) - change your name :)

So if your "home" which would be "England" was being invaded you wouldn't fight for your country? You wouldn't fight for your home, your family, your fellow British muslims? What would you do? Cowar in the cellar, attic and wait for it all to pass by?
Is that because England is a Western country?
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noodles
06-11-2007, 10:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
So if your "home" which would be "England" was being invaded you wouldn't fight for your country? You wouldn't fight for your home, your family, your fellow British muslims? What would you do? Cowar in the cellar, attic and wait for it all to pass by?
Is that because England is a Western country?
Referring to your idea of 'fight for your country', me personally I wouldn't. It is my opinion that I'd only fight for my beliefs and those are categorized as Islam.

The way I see it, Islam is a set of beliefs that adhere to your way of life, be it from politics, to personal to marital affairs, Islam covers most aspects and these set of beliefs appeals the most to me. Thus I'd be willing to die for it since it is practically my whole 'way of life' (as some others put it)

As for fighting for my country, I don't see the need to when the country I'm being governed by passes laws that I personally don't find alluring to me.

Sure, Islam had it's fair share of corrupt leaders and politicians, but being a muslim, I must adhere to "Islamic law" and so whatever guidelines there are I must follow. However, what I find disturbing about "fighting for England" is that yesterday, people were opposed against Homosexuality, and god knows today or in the future, they will be for it, and so I have a serious problem about being in the same category as the ones who fought for them.

(No, I don't mean to target Homosexuals, but it was an example that I used to prove my point)

Keep in mind, these are "my" views, feel free to disagree. :)
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north_malaysian
06-12-2007, 05:04 AM
I've voted "yes". Because being nationalistic means that you EXTREMELY love your nation. So Nationalists are Nation lover extremists. :okay:
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E'jaazi
06-12-2007, 05:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
Religion causes wars. As I said I expect anyone in this country die for their country in its time of need. The United Kingdom is a fortress.
People's misrepresentation of religion is what causes war, not the religion itself. With regards to nationalism, it is a problem, especially with the Muslims, because they begin to follow the ways of their culture and start to listen to the reasoning on men and stray away from the Sunnah. This is the root cause of all the problems that they bring on themselves.
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HBot 5000
06-14-2007, 12:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
So if your "home" which would be "England" was being invaded you wouldn't fight for your country? You wouldn't fight for your home, your family, your fellow British muslims? What would you do? Cowar in the cellar, attic and wait for it all to pass by?
Is that because England is a Western country?
:sl:

I would fight to defend my home. I am referring to the bricks and mortar that i have paid for & my family.

I love England but fighting for my country - Nope (not at this particular moment in time). I sadly don't believe in england anymore when it invaded Iraq on false pretences. Perhaps in time when another government preferably conservative comes into power i will change my mind.

I will always defend Muslims from people like you who strive to put a wedge between muslims by means of nationality. I pay my taxes (too much i might add) and do my bit but don't ask me to defend this hypocritical nation +o(


:w:
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Cognescenti
06-15-2007, 01:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HBot 5000
:sl:

I would fight to defend my home. I am referring to the bricks and mortar that i have paid for & my family.

I love England but fighting for my country - Nope (not at this particular moment in time). I sadly don't believe in england anymore when it invaded Iraq on false pretences. Perhaps in time when another government preferably conservative comes into power i will change my mind.

I will always defend Muslims from people like you who strive to put a wedge between muslims by means of nationality. I pay my taxes (too much i might add) and do my bit but don't ask me to defend this hypocritical nation +o(


:w:
What if you were a Spitfire pilot and the Nazis were coming? What if the Ottoman Empire were resurgent and the Turkish Navy (you will have to suspend disbelief for this exercise) were bearing down on Dover? What then?
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HBot 5000
06-15-2007, 01:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
What if you were a Spitfire pilot and the Nazis were coming? What if the Ottoman Empire were resurgent and the Turkish Navy (you will have to suspend disbelief for this exercise) were bearing down on Dover? What then?
:sl:

I reiterate my point again that at this particular moment in time i will not fight for my country.

If the Nazis were coming i would fight quite simply because the doctorine of these fascists is a threat to muslims everywhere. The Ottoman empire is a difficult example as the Ottomans saw themselves as the rulers of a "Universal Empire" and heirs to both Roman and Islamic traditions but i know one thing and that is i will NEVER EVER fight against muslims EVER.

:)

:w:
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barney
06-15-2007, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HBot 5000
:sl:

II love England but fighting for my country - Nope (not at this particular moment in time). I sadly don't believe in england anymore when it invaded Iraq on false pretences. :w:
England isn't a foreign policy decision HBot.
England is a way of being. If your not feeling "English", you dont have to stay.
Perhaps a more moral place to live would be Iran?
Mayby Saudi Arabias civil rights record is more appealing?
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-15-2007, 02:52 PM
we only differentiate via islamic knowledge and piety.

to differentiate via anything else and completely insist on that is extreme as is every other view which goes against islam
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HBot 5000
06-15-2007, 06:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
England isn't a foreign policy decision HBot.
England is a way of being. If your not feeling "English", you dont have to stay.Perhaps a more moral place to live would be Iran?
Mayby Saudi Arabias civil rights record is more appealing?
I am English never have i once said i did not want to be here in this beautiful country however i would not fight for this country at this present moment in time (allot of non muslims that i know think exactly the same way). I pay my taxes and do my bit. Don't like it tough! or are you now saying that my civil right to do what i want has been taken away? +o(

Have you been to KSA? I have. You are right its human rights are questionable its culture is deplorable however the countries religion Islam is beautiful and it was wonderful to be among like minded individuals. Iran! Iran?! please i'd rather be in Israel +o( (i have lived there too).

However if it comes to a choice between being English and being Muslim i choose the later, don't like that tough!

I shall pick and choose my battles. England isn't a foreign policy? are you sure about that? England is spreading it's perticular brand of democracy along with America throughout the world forcefully so don't say to me it isn't. +o(

:)
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barney
06-15-2007, 10:17 PM
Yeah, you dont have to fight for your country.
Plenty of people are willing to do that for you.
I was just saying if you dont feel english, it's a free country to leave from. Unlike a lot.

I've not been to Saudi, but i have been Kuwait and Iraq.
You can change foreign policy by voting. (A bit like the Iraqi's now can!)
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HBot 5000
06-16-2007, 09:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Yeah, you dont have to fight for your country.
Plenty of people are willing to do that for you.
I was just saying if you dont feel english, it's a free country to leave from. Unlike a lot.

I've not been to Saudi, but i have been Kuwait and Iraq.
You can change foreign policy by voting. (A bit like the Iraqi's now can!)
I am english, it's not a feeling! just something i am. You are quasi correct with regards to changing foreign policy however this great nation must stand up for the injustices happening in Israel and not support it blindly like the Americans.

Yes Barney a section on the Iraqi populous can vote and this indeed is a triumph however the fact of the matter is that we invaded Iraq because we thought they had weapons of mass destruction +o( If the idea was regime change then why not come clean?

Anyhow i think this thread is decending into off topic territory :offtopic:
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