If

[evangel]

If you died today would you go to heaven?

[Woodrow]

As a Muslim I refuse to answer that poll as I view it as extreme arrogance to assume I know the Will of Allah(swt)

['Abd al-Baari]

:sl:

I agree with bro Woodrow but Inshallah (God-Willimg) yes

[Abdul-Raouf]

hey evangel .. everyone will have their wish in their heart to reach heaven for sure(Yes i love to be in heaven).... but regardin ur question ..how can a human predict his future ????? ...

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[Trumble]

Nope. No such place to go, at least in the sense you mean.

[......]

Well, can't really say I haven't been dead before, Although I hope I would

[Karina]

How would I even know there is a "heaven" until I am dead???

I would like to hope there is no afterlife/heaven/paradise!

I would like to hope I am not living such a selfish life as to plan every one of my actions in the hope I will go to "heaven" & so that I do not go to "hell"!

I would like to hope that I am tyring to make my life, and the life of those around me better, without underlying self centred thoughts & ulterior motives of securing my own fate after death.

:statisfie

[barney]

A better poll would be:
Are you?

A) Muslim: Its for Allah to decide.
b) Christian: I accept Jesus, i'm packing my suntan lotion and some good books.
c) Agnostic: Meh...I dunno, you dunno, God knows if he's there.
d) Atheiist: "My Emo-body will rot in the ground"

[FBI]

Hope so inshallah

[S.A.]

How would I even know there is a "heaven" until I am dead???

I would like to hope there is no afterlife/heaven/paradise!

I would like to hope I am not living such a selfish life as to plan every one of my actions in the hope I will go to "heaven" & so that I do not go to "hell"!

I would like to hope that I am tyring to make my life, and the life of those around me better, without underlying self centred thoughts & ulterior motives of securing my own fate after death.

:statisfie

I dont agree with u Karina. The 'test' of which we all are a part doens t imply the above mentioned things..:)

Take care. Maassalamah.

[strider]

A better poll would be:
Are you?

A) Muslim: Its for Allah to decide.
b) Christian: I accept Jesus, i'm packing my suntan lotion and some good books.
c) Agnostic: Meh...I dunno, you dunno, God knows if he's there.
d) Atheiist: "My Emo-body will rot in the ground"

lol @ ''My Emo-body will rot in the ground.''

[Yanal]

As a Muslim I refuse to answer that poll as I view it as extreme arrogance to assume I know the Will of Allah(swt)

i belive that is right gramps i am with u

[BanGuLLy]

Im Optimistic:) but only Allah can judge where I should go..

[Pygoscelis]

lol @ ''My Emo-body will rot in the ground.''

Its not accurate. As we ALL believe this. Religious folks just ALSO believe in something they refer to as a soul, which will leave that said emo-body as it rots in the ground.

[barney]

Then why do suicide bombers wrap their "appendages" in extra pants to protect them?
Why did Pharoh get buried with all his stuff?
Why do Mormons beleive they will have earthly bodies?
(actually...lots of religions beleive we will have earthly bodies)

:)

[Panther]

Then why do suicide bombers wrap their "appendages" in extra pants to protect them?

Wait, wait, wait... What?
If "appendages" refers to what I think it does, that is pure comedy gold.

Anyway, no. I do not believe I'm going to "heaven", I do not believe in an afterlife. I do my best to make my paradise on earth. :)

[barney]

Wait, wait, wait... What?
If "appendages" refers to what I think it does, that is pure comedy gold.

Anyway, no. I do not believe I'm going to "heaven", I do not believe in an afterlife. I do my best to make my paradise on earth. :)

Its true. Common martyerdom practice.

[Pygoscelis]

I just laughed so hard I sprayed my drink all over my monitor!

[glo]

A better poll would be:
Are you?

A) Muslim: Its for Allah to decide.
b) Christian: I accept Jesus, i'm packing my suntan lotion and some good books.
c) Agnostic: Meh...I dunno, you dunno, God knows if he's there.
d) Atheiist: "My Emo-body will rot in the ground"

LOL
Now I wish I hadn't just repped you for another post ... :D

[ranma1/2]

A better poll would be:
Are you?

A) Muslim: Its for Allah to decide.
b) Christian: I accept Jesus, i'm packing my suntan lotion and some good books.
c) Agnostic: Meh...I dunno, you dunno, God knows if he's there.
d) Atheiist: "My Emo-body will rot in the ground"

lol i like the atheist one. But remember atheism only deals with "god" many atheist do believe in things including some sort of after life.

[Woodrow]

A better poll would be:
Are you?

A) Muslim: Its for Allah to decide.
b) Christian: I accept Jesus, i'm packing my suntan lotion and some good books.
c) Agnostic: Meh...I dunno, you dunno, God knows if he's there.
d) Atheiist: "My Emo-body will rot in the ground"

e) Hindu: "I like it here, I bought a round trip ticket"

[Camomilla]

As a Muslim I refuse to answer that poll as I view it as extreme arrogance to assume I know the Will of Allah(swt)

I totally agree :thumbs_up

[evangel]

As a Muslim I refuse to answer that poll as I view it as extreme arrogance to assume I know the Will of Allah(swt)

Um, Woodrow, basically you answered "I don't know" :)

[evangel]

In one of John's letters in the Bible it says, "I write these things so that you may know you have eternal life."
That's quite an assurance in a world that is "buyer beware" and "there are no guarantees".

[Woodrow]

Um, Woodrow, basically you answered "I don't know" :)

True. My statement in itself is a vote of "I don't Know". But, the fact remains that a poll such as this is quite invalid for a Muslim. It is very presumptuous and arrogant for us to to say we know the will of Allah(swt). I view it as very close to blasphemy for a person to say he is going to either Heaven or Hellfire.

I would rather answer:

I know that Allah(swt) has promised joy and rewards beyond comprehension to the believers. My goals and efforts are to be a true believer.

[Woodrow]

In one of John's letters in the Bible it says, "I write these things so that you may know you have eternal life."
That's quite an assurance in a world that is "buyer beware" and "there are no guarantees".

True, the bible says John said that. But, did you ever think that can also mean you will Know what a person needs to do to go to heaven? We can know we are trying. But, only Allah(swt) knows our true intentions and our true efforts. We can believe we are following the right path in the manner revealed to us. But, we are mere humans we are capable of error and can stray from that path and still believe we are on it. Our faith in salvation is dependent on our knowledge that the Will of Allah(swt) is both Just and Merciful.

I have seen many people became arrogant and boastful because they "think" they know they are "Saved". I can not fathom that Allah(swt) would teach people something that has the ability to lead them into arrogance.

Looking back in History that idea of "Knowing" you are saved has led to much sin and harm.

Using that logic would it not make the most since to immediately execute a person as soon as they become "saved" and save them from the pain and tribulations of this life. Shouldn't a merciful pastor give his parishoners the gift of immediate paradise by killing all of "Saved" parishioners? would not suicide be the greatest thing a person who "knows" he is saved could do?

I am certain you can see the stupidity of that statement. But if a person actually "Knew" he was going to heaven, all of that is perfectly logical.

Misguided Suicide Bombers" know" they are going to Heaven.

Early Missionaries to the Americas knew they were sending recently converted Indians to heaven by having them hung immediately after they were baptised and knew they were saved.

Members of the KKK know they are going to heaven. I have met several KKK members and the ones I have met all believe they are saved born again Christians and are assured of heaven.

To be honest I do not know if those people will or will not go to heaven. What right do I have to doubt that, for reasons I do not understand, they could be doing the will of Allah(swt).

[evangel]

Well, if you were to stand before God today and he asked, "Why should I let you into My heaven?", what reason(s) would you give?

[Woodrow]

Well, if you were to stand before God today and he asked, "Why should I let you into My heaven?", what reason(s) would you give?

"Al-Hamdu lillaahi Rabbil-'Aalamiin, wa Maaliki Yawmid-Diin. Inshallah."

(Praise to Allah(swt), cherisher, sustainer of the Universe and Master of Judgement Day, Your will be done.)



Who am I to give any reason? I accept the will of Allah(swt). Allah(swt) knows all I have done and thought and all I will do. After I die I can not undo what I have done in this life.

[evangel]

Who am I to give any reason? I accept the will of Allah(swt). Allah(swt) knows all I have done and thought and all I will do. After I die I can not undo what I have done in this life.

So the Koran was written to guide you in the ways of Allah(swt) but when it comes to the end your obedience doesn't mean a thing. Are you saying, and I may be misinterpreting you completely, that the Koran does not assist you on the path to eternal life, that there is no assurance in it?

[Woodrow]

So the Koran was written to guide you in the ways of Allah(swt) but when it comes to the end your obedience doesn't mean a thing. Are you saying, and I may be misinterpreting you completely, that the Koran does not assist you on the path to eternal life, that there is no assurance in it?

It is a very difficult thing for a Non-Muslim to understand. I believe the Jews have somewhat a similar concept and can understand.

A 'Readers Digest Condensed Version" of what I believe.

The Qur'an teaches us about Islam. The Ahadith teaches us how to follow Islam(be Muslim)

We Know:

We are to follow God(swt). the Qur'an tells us what God(swt) wants to do, Worship Him alone.

We know God(swt) is all just and knowing.

We know that God(swt) has promised great rewards for the Believers.

We know God(swt) has given us ample instructions on how to be a Believer.


I know that if I die as a true Believer Allah(swt) will keep his promises.

I believe I am doing my best as a True Believer. However, I can not predict the future and since I am Human it is still possible for me to deny Islam one second before I die. Only Allah(swt) knows what my thoughts and belief will be at the moment of my death. I can not know, I can pray for strngth and guidance.

It is only the will of God(swt0 that is permanent and that is what will determine my fate.

Actually the Christian concept of a person knowing he is saved is fairly new and from I see of American Protestant origin.

Let us take a look at the beliefs of some of the earlier Christian denominations and what they used to believe, I'm avoiding Islamic sites for this information.:

Fourthly, we cannot believe that Christ's death and sufferings so satisfies God or justifies men, as that they are thereby accepted of God : they are indeed thereby put into a state capable of being accepted of God, and, through the obedience of faith and sanctification of the Spirit, are in a state of acceptance: for we can never think a man justified before God, while self-condemned: or that any man can be in Christ who is not a new creature, or that God looks upon men otherwise than they are. We think it a state of presumption and not of salvation, to call Jesus Lord, and not by the work of the Holy Ghost: Master, and he not yet master of their affections : Saviour, and they not saved by him from their sins: Redeemer, and yet they not redeemed by him from their passion, pride, covetousness, wantonness, vanity, vain honours, friendships, and glory of this world: which were to deceive themselves ; for God will not be mocked. Such as men sow, such they must reap. And though Christ did die for us, yet we must, by the assistance of his grace, work out our salvation with fear and trembling : as he died for sin, so we must die to sin, or we cannot be said to be saved by the death and sufferings of Christ, or thoroughly justified and accepted with God. Thus far negatively. Now, positively, what we own as to justification.

Source: http://www.strecorsoc.org/penn/pcr_08.html

It has been proper to consider fear in connection with hope, because it is the other side of hope.
We have a sure and certain hope of eternal happiness, as far as God is concerned; we have a sober fear, as far as we ourselves are concerned, lest we offend God, and be separated from Him and so lose our eternal happi*ness. That this hope and fear is a virtue, and that it is our duty to cooperate with God when He inspires it in us, will become clear from another angle, if we consider briefly the two vices which are opposed to hope. The first of these is presumption.

We presume by relying too much either on our own powers or on the mercy of God. Thus, for instance, the Pelagians have the sin of presumption, because they think that man can attain salvation by the exercise of his own powers, and that the help of God is not necessary but only useful. And all persons who give up the practice of religion, not because they think the creeds false, nor because they think the Christian moral ideals wrong, but because they think they are competent to pursue those ideals by themselves, have this sin of presumption. Others sin by presumption when they rely too much on the loving kindness of God, as for instance that God will forgive us whether we repent or no: and that He will give us grace even if we do not bother to use the sacraments. Very often this kind of pre*sumption is made a handle for sin, as when we say that "we may as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb", meaning it is just as easy for God to forgive, or that He will anyway forgive, a grave sin as a small one, or twenty sins as one sin. And the whole attitude towards God expressed in the phrase "Ie bon Dieii'", and the tendency to postpone amendment of life to one's old age, borders on this sin of presumption.
And it is a sin, first, because it maintains a false and dishonourable view about God, —that He does not really mind about sin.
Secondly, because this attitude causes us to neglect the means of grace and forgive*ness, and is one form of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It makes the Holy Spirit powerless.

Source: http://www.katapi.org.uk/MoralTH/ChVIII.htm

Scripture passage he uses here is Luke 3:7-17–where John the Baptist addresses the multitude and warns them to “bear fruits worthy of repentance.” In particular I liked this portion about our tendency to presume we have been saved based on our parents’ religion or our own baptism with no accompanying fruit:

Second, notice how he points out a hindrance to a life of good works. He tells them not to say to themselves, “we have Abraham as our father.” To claim Abraham as an ancestor without having the faith of Abraham is worthless. This is called the sin of presumption. It was true in the days of John the Baptist and it is true today. I would imagine that many of the people who were coming out to John at the River were insincere. That is what he implies by calling them a generation of vipers. Even coming out to him and being baptized was worthless unless it bore fruit in their lives. Unless they left his baptism of repentance and lived a life of repentance, their baptism availed nothing. The same is true today. People rely on the Christian testimony of their parents or they rely on their own baptism without bearing the fruit which that baptism calls for. This is called presumption.

Some people rely on some decision they made at some point in their life without any thought of an ongoing life of faith and repentance. Maybe they walked the aisle at some evangelistic crusade and said a prayer. Or maybe they watched some television show where they were called to believe in Jesus by saying a prayer. But their lives are unchanged. Many who do such things never darken the door of a Church to worship God; many go on living as they had previously with some false hope of being right with God. Many treat their decision—in whatever form it was made—as some cheap fire insurance for the next life. All of this is the sin of presumption.

Source: http://prydain.wordpress.com/2006/12/

[evangel]

We know God(swt) has given us ample instructions on how to be a Believer.
I believe I am doing my best as a True Believer.

So if you don't follow the instructions correctly or if your incorrect behavior is more than your correct behavior then you can ruin your chances of heaven.

[Woodrow]

So if you don't follow the instructions correctly or if your incorrect behavior is more than your correct behavior then you can ruin your chances of heaven.

All I know is Allah(swt) will never ask me to do what he has not given me the ability to do.

I have full faith that He will judge my behavior on the basis of the abilities and understandings he has given me.

There is no such thing as chances for heaven or hell. That is similar to a lottery.


The decisions of Allah(swt) are fair and just and I see know reason why I should not put my trust in what He has said and whatever he does.

I do not need to know if I am going to heaven or hell, I do need to know how to do my best to try to understand what Allah(swt) expects of me and that is laid out in the Qur'an and the Ahadith.

I do not understand your apparant need to Know that you are going to heaven.

[Balthasar21]

If you died today would you go to heaven?

Before I Can Answer Your Question , I Would Like To Know Where Heaven Is , Then I Would Like To Know What Can I Get In Heaven That Not Here On Earth ?

[evangel]

I Would Like To Know Where Heaven Is

Sorry I don't know, were you planning a trip?

Then I Would Like To Know What Can I Get In Heaven That Not Here On Earth ?

Actually what you don't get (sickness, pain, sorrow, regret, shame, etc...) is what grabs me. Also if you read Revelation it sounds like an incredible neighborhood.

[evangel]

I do not understand your apparant need to Know that you are going to heaven.

I don't need to know, I already do. For me to share what I believe I need to know where their heart is.

Do you understand the biblical meaning of Grace?

[barney]

Before I Can Answer Your Question , I Would Like To Know Where Heaven Is , Then I Would Like To Know What Can I Get In Heaven That Not Here On Earth ?

It's on Kolob.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob

You get loads of stuff free and dont have to work for it and your assigned a planet of your own to rule. Which would be pretty cool.

Mines going to be made out of gataux and have a ice-Cream sea. the trees are going to grow beer bottles on them.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

As bro Woodrow said, it'd be arrogant to assume I know I'm going to heaven. As humans we are prone to mistakes and InshaAllah, if we try to live according to the Qur'an and Sunnah sincerely, our end will be good. But again, thats up to Allah(swt) to decide. As Muslims we should repent everyday to Allah(swt) and ask for His forgiveness and guidance, InshaAllah. As humans we can't even predict how our mind will change in the next few moments or who will die suddenly, how would you expect to predict your life after death?

Peace

[snakelegs]

didn't vote because i don't believe in an after life, (tho i can't deny that it is possible) but i am curious, how would anyone presume to know they are going to heaven?

[barney]

Because those who have accepted Jesus as their saviour know. Theyve been told. So it's knowlage.

[evangel]

Because those who have accepted Jesus as their saviour know. Theyve been told. So it's knowlage.

You're good at this, wanna join the club.

[snakelegs]

Because those who have accepted Jesus as their saviour know. Theyve been told. So it's knowlage.

oh :rollseyes

[barney]

You're good at this, wanna join the club.

Nahh, i'm cool thanks.:D

[Woodrow]

I don't need to know, I already do. For me to share what I believe I need to know where their heart is.

Do you understand the biblical meaning of Grace?

It wasn't that long back I was a very devout Christian, I still remember the meaning of grace. Actually using the Christian concept of Grace it has much the same connotation of my Islamic concept of Allah's (swt) Mercy.

We can't steal it, earn it or deserve it, but when we receive it, it opens the door for Allah(swt) to remove our sins and allow us to enter Heaven. we have faith that Allah(swt) will bestow his mercy upon us.
Some of the signs of being filled with knowledge of Allah's(swt) mercy is our want to do good deed for the joy of doing them and our desire to show Allah(swt) we are thankfull for his mercy.

4) The Use of the word Grace by Christ
How often would you see Christ saying "grace" in the King James Bible? - The answer is zero! Christ never says "grace" in the King James Bible!


5) Paul's Use of the word Grace
Paul uses the grace word 97 times, and in the Pre-Solomonic sense (favorable attitude of God).

Summary of Lesson:-

1. Grace is a "Favourable Attitude" bestowed by the greater (God) upon the lesser (ourselves).
2. This favourable attitude is a gift and cannot be earned by anything we do, except for one thing...
3. We do have to have faith!

Source: http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/religious/h_grace.htm



I see it as:

1. Allah's (SWT) Mercy is a "Favourable Attitude" bestowed by Allah(swt) upon the lesser (ourselves).
2. This favourable attitude is a gift and cannot be earned by anything we do, except for one thing...
3. We do have to have faith!

[north_malaysian]

As bro Woodrow said, it'd be arrogant to assume I know I'm going to heaven

I think it's a sin to assume that "I'm so TOTALLY go to heaven".

[Woodrow]

I think it's a sin to assume that "I'm so TOTALLY go to heaven".

Even a lot of the Early Christians believed it was the "Sin of Presumption" to assume to know you are going to Heaven. I know it was until the 1960s in the Catholic, Greek Othodox, Russian Orthodox, and Episcopalian Churches and may still be. ( I was attending those in the 1940s and 50s) I was Roman Catholic, One grand mother was Russian Orthodox, but she often went to a Greek orthodox Church, my best friend was Episcopalian, so I got dragged around a bit)

I believe it first began being said in the American Baptist Churches of the 1800s. I will try to find some verification of when it first became commonly used among Christians.

[Camomilla]

:sl:
Masha Allah!
May Allah(SWT) reward u brother!:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

All I know is Allah(swt) will never ask me to do what he has not given me the ability to do.

I have full faith that He will judge my behavior on the basis of the abilities and understandings he has given me.

There is no such thing as chances for heaven or hell. That is similar to a lottery.


The decisions of Allah(swt) are fair and just and I see know reason why I should not put my trust in what He has said and whatever he does.

I do not need to know if I am going to heaven or hell, I do need to know how to do my best to try to understand what Allah(swt) expects of me and that is laid out in the Qur'an and the Ahadith.

I do not understand your apparant need to Know that you are going to heaven.

[Woodrow]

When did Christians start saying they "Know they are going to Heaven?" over half of the people who call themselves Christian do not believe that.

The Sin of Presumption

Catholicism maintains that believing you are assured of going to heaven when you die is to commit the sin of presumption:
"There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit." Pg. 507, #2092

I know Catholics are not Christians and the fact the majority of those who call themselves Christian saying it is a sin does not mean it is a sin.

Now the Question comes as to when did Christians begin saying that. Since the Catholics didn't say that it must have begun after Martin Luther and the reformation.

What do Lutherans say?

I can't seem to find anything in Lutheran beliefs that say they know they are going to heaven.

Lutheran Beliefs
o God saves us through his GRACE, given as an unmerited favor.
o We are redeemed not by our own good works but through our FAITH in the saving works of Jesus Christ.
o The BIBLE is the inspired Word of God and is the source of authority for faith and life.
o By our BAPTISM we are initiated into the priesthood of all believers. We are called to confess Christ as Lord and Savior. We are called to be ministers to one another.
o God’s GRACE and MERCY come to us by way of the Holy Spirit.
o We are called to SERVE, and by serving we show our gratitude to God.

Source: http://www.stpauls-lutheran.com/beliefs.shtml


I know the Baptists believe that they know they are going to Heaven., but let us see what else they believe:

Voluntarism: Although the group is named for their position on baptism, in fact it is their position on voluntarism and the independence of local churches which may be the most important characteristic of Baptist churches. Baptist tradition holds that authority in matters of religion and faith rests first with the individual baptized believer and second with the local congregation of believers — not a religious hierarchy, religious tradition, or even religious texts.

Source: http://atheism.about.com/od/baptists...thistory_4.htm

interesting, what else?

VII. Baptism and the Lord's Supper

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.

Source: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp

Sounds like it would have been a chore for any body North of the Arctic Circle to become a Baptist. What else is interesting?

Pastor claims church voted to reject black membership, resigns

8/26/2006 8:34:40 AM
Daily Journal


BY CHARITY GORDON


Daily Journal


SALTILLO - A pastor who says his congregation voted not to accept black membership has resigned. The church says it never made such a decision.


The Rev. John Stevens says Fellowship Baptist Church in Saltillo voted not to approve blacks as members during a scheduled Sunday night business meeting Aug. 6. Because of the decision, Stevens stepped down from the Baptist Missionary Alliance congregation that has an average Sunday morning attendance of 30 people.

Source: http://www.djournal.com/pages/archive.asp?ID=226460

Racism beyond the grave - controversy over an 'all-white' cemetery
Christian Century, April 17, 1996

THE TOP social policy official of the Southern Baptist Convention has harshly criticized an all-white Southern Baptist church in Georgia whose leaders wanted to exhume the body of a baby from a church cemetery after learning that the child was biracial. Officials of Barnetts Creek Baptist Church in Thomasville, Georgia, reversed, their plan after pressure from congregants who were alerted to the situation by news media.

Source: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...13/ai_18226920

Implicit in all this showboaty amending and resolving was the message that brotherly love is morally relative, and a message like that advances a tacit tolerance for prejudice. Racism itself is as knotted up with the history of Southern Baptists as it is with the history of Dixie. Just prior to the Civil War, as Southern states were breaking from the Union to allow its citizens to continue to own slaves, Southern Baptists broke away from Baptists in the North to allow their missionaries to own slaves. After the war and on through the civil rights struggle, as Southerners fought for separation of the races, Southern Baptist ministers preached the glories of segregation from the pulpit. For good-hearted Southern Baptists, the struggle of the century has been this: how to reconcile the Bible's message of unconditional love with the native prejudices that, for the last 150 years, have become part and parcel of living in the South.

Source: http://www.salon.com/books/it/1999/0...st/index1.html


At least they KNOW they are going to heaven. Interesting attitudes people form when they KNOW the will of Allah(SWT and KNOW they are going to heaven.

Alhamdillah Allah(swt) has warned me not to believe I KNOW his will. Presumption can lead to some very grave sins. May Allah(swt) have mercy on those who KNOW they are going to heaven and grant them forgiveness for their arrogance.

[England]

The more appropiate question for me would;

"If you died today would you go to hell?"

No I doubt I will. I don't believe I've done anything bad enough to send me to hell..

[Maidah]

The more appropiate question for me would;

"If you died today would you go to hell?"

No I doubt I will. I don't believe I've done anything bad enough to send me to hell..

That would leave behind the option of you goin to paradise cuz you've done good,

Which i highly doubt:X

[England]

That would leave behind the option of you goin to paradise cuz you've done good,

Which i highly doubt:X

I don't believe in the "paradise" that you believe in :) I believe in "another world" similar to this that we live in yet a better world than that we live in, a peaceful, happy world where we live as spirits ie, heaven. In order to make that a better world the bad seeds need to come out :) I'm not one of them and nobody knows me as a person to judge me... :X To me religion is NOT a factor. Our hearts are.

[barney]

England. Is it just a gut feeling that causes your beleif in this...or something else?

[snakelegs]

woodrow wrote:

I know Catholics are not Christians

where did you get this idea? catholics are most certainly christians even if some protestants don't think so.

[Woodrow]

woodrow wrote:

where did you get this idea? catholics are most certainly christians even if some protestants don't think so.

I was being a little bit more than a touch obnoxious with that.

In my early years when I was Catholic very many of my non-Catholic acquaintances really did not consider Catholics, Christian. I know that most of our Christian members here are not Catholic. I really don't know how many of them do not consider Catholics as being non-Christian but I know a few think that.

[F@tim@]

bit of a funny poll!

[F@tim@]

A non Muslim can do all the good in the world and he/she will get their reward in this world but in the hereafter they will get no reward. Why? Because at the end of the day he/she did not believe in Allah and the Prophet(and the 7 major beliefs).
A Muslim can do all the bad in the world, he/she will get his/her punishment but at the end of the day will go to paradise because he/she believed in Allah and the Prophet(and the 7 major beliefs).

Allah Knows Best!

[*noor]

A Muslim can do all the bad in the world, he/she will get his/her punishment but at the end of the day will go to paradise because he/she believed in Allah and the Prophet(and the 7 major beliefs).

Allah Knows Best!

:sl:

actually, belief comes with action, they work together, you can't just have one of them to be a Muslim, and aren't there 6 major beliefs?

[Maidah]

A non Muslim can do all the good in the world and he/she will get their reward in this world but in the hereafter they will get no reward. Why? Because at the end of the day he/she did not believe in Allah and the Prophet(and the 7 major beliefs).
A Muslim can do all the bad in the world, he/she will get his/her punishment but at the end of the day will go to paradise because he/she believed in Allah and the Prophet(and the 7 major beliefs).

Allah Knows Best!

Sis i think you are simplifying this too much. A muslim cannot be doing bad and then serve his punishment and go to paradise, unless he repents for his/her mistakes with the intention of never repeating it again. And beside beleiving in Allah there is other obligations on us such as saalat, zakat etc that we must also fulfill. For a muslim knowing about islam and the truth, if he/she still does something wrong it is twice the punishment because they were aware of it.

So we must all be carefull in our actions and not keep doing bad on the basis that we will suffer our share of the punishment and then go to paradise.

[Balthasar21]

Sorry I don't know, were you planning a trip?


Actually what you don't get (sickness, pain, sorrow, regret, shame, etc...) is what grabs me. Also if you read Revelation it sounds like an incredible neighborhood.

Not changeing the subject here but how well do you know Revelation ?

[snakelegs]

I was being a little bit more than a touch obnoxious with that.

In my early years when I was Catholic very many of my non-Catholic acquaintances really did not consider Catholics, Christian. I know that most of our Christian members here are not Catholic. I really don't know how many of them do not consider Catholics as being non-Christian but I know a few think that.

some protestants are very anti-catholic. but to an outsider, there can be no question that catholics are christians. christians calling each other non-christians is "insider" business. for us outsiders, it is much simpler. :D

[Gangster No.1]

:sl:

Allah is the most generous, most kind, most forgiving, most mercifull, The giver, The taker.

I testify there is no god but ,allah & muhammad is the final beloved messeger, (p.b.u.h).

If i was 2 die 2 day, allah knows best inshlah i shalhh enter paradise with the will of allah, inshlah. And inshlah EVRY MUSLIM will also enter paradise with the will of THE MOST HIGH, THE OST GRACIOUS. ALLAH (s.w.t)

ameen.

[skhalid]

I dnt know...I cannot judge myself....only Allah can judge me so....

[rushsjilbab]

:sl:

how would some one know. only Allah knows where you will end up. there are so many ways to go to jannah and there are so many ways that will take you to jahanam.

to be honest this poll is kind of useless

:w:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

As a Muslim I refuse to answer that poll as I view it as extreme arrogance to assume I know the Will of Allah(swt)

whoooah.

mashaAllah.

i second this statement!!

[England]

England. Is it just a gut feeling that causes your beleif in this...or something else?

It's just what I believe in. I believe in spiritualism, and at the same time I don't believe religion is a factor in the afterlife. We're all equal, if you choose to worship God 5 times a day, devote your life to God then so be it, but what I believe is that everyone's going to the same place regardless of that. What I do believe is that it is the attitude of your heart that God cares about. If you've lived life free of evil then you'll be fine.

It's not just my belief alone. MANY people believe it as you can see by the rise of such programmes as "crossing over with John Edwards" and "Colin Fry" etc etc.

I'm not religious or some spiritual freak but what I do feel is the protection and guidance from spirits. We're being looked after. The thing that makes it even better is that the people that believe this don't force their beliefs down your throats or try to convert you to the belief. If you believe it then ok... whatever. It makes no difference to me or any other person that believes this.

[barney]

Thats a really interesting perspective.
I'd agree with it except for the spirits part, which I'm a bit wary about.

Peace.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I'm not religious or some spiritual freak but what I do feel is the protection and guidance from spirits. We're being looked after. The thing that makes it even better is that the people that believe this don't force their beliefs down your throats or try to convert you to the belief. If you believe it then ok... whatever. It makes no difference to me or any other person that believes this.

so then you believe God will create something as sophisticated as earth and place you on it without an instructor or a manual :?

[England]

so then you believe God will create something as sophisticated as earth and place you on it without an instructor or a manual :?

Yes. I've lived on this earth, I've not read any "rules or manuals from God" but I know what the difference between good and bad is. I believe we're put on here to live your life without committing any evil acts such as paedophilia, murder or any other harm to God's "children." God didn't put me on this earth to worship. God gave me life just as my parents gave me birth. I don't worship my parents nor do they expect me to, they didn't HAVE to have me. To me God is like a Father, he loves his "children" but if they commit any evil acts without regret then he will punish his children just as our parents would punish us. He won't punish us for not going down on our knees 5 times a day or by keeping away from pork or from listening to music etc.

They are what I and many people believe. You don't hear much of this because nobody is interested in spreading the message. It's not like religion where people look for numbers.

barney
Thats a really interesting perspective.
I'd agree with it except for the spirits part, which I'm a bit wary about.

Peace.

I used to think "hahaha spirits? Nutter" myself. My mum took to me and my sister to a spiritualist church a few times when I was about 16. We both giggled, I thought we were going to get thrown out. Eventually after a few more visits when we started to get readings I was amazed at the accuracy of the readings and started to wonder "maybe they aren't as nutty as I thought." Even scientists cannot explain the accuracy of these spiritualist readings.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

ye spiritualists might be getting help from jinns ;)

lol ok England i wish guidance for us both :)

i just find it impossible that a person will leave someone to find out right and wrong for themselves without direction, thats like sending a kid to primary school without a teacher... whats he going to do? lol

well we both have our views :)

[England]

ye spiritualists might be getting help from jinns ;)

lol ok England i wish guidance for us both :)

i just find it impossible that a person will leave someone to find out right and wrong for themselves without direction, thats like sending a kid to primary school without a teacher... whats he going to do? lol

well we both have our views :)

Jinns? What's that? Would these "Jinns" be claiming to be related to the people that are getting the readings? Would these "Jinns" that, on one occasion, be pretending to be "Catherine" my mum's aunt and tell the medium that her twin brother, my Grandad, had found a cribbage board earlier in the week that he had lost for 15-20 years? Nobody knew this until we got home, rang asked him. He claims to be a sceptic but he told us to "shut up" and that it was bothering him. He told us that things like that scare him. I think he believes in it now but still pretends not to.

You find it impossible that a "PERSON" would leave someone to find out from right or wrong for themselves? Since when was God a PERSON? He gave us a brain, he gave us enough intelligence to know from right and wrong. God is mysterious. He is not a person. Don't try to think of logical explanations of God's actions. You tend to look too deeply into things.

[Muezzin]

I'll only vote if 'Specsavers' is added to the poll. Maybe.

But seriously, I dunno if I'll go to heaven. I hope I will.

[Grace Seeker]

I would like to hope I am not living such a selfish life as to plan every one of my actions in the hope I will go to "heaven" & so that I do not go to "hell"!

I would like to hope that I am tyring to make my life, and the life of those around me better, without underlying self centred thoughts & ulterior motives of securing my own fate after death.

Karina, I don't see these concepts as mutually exclusive.

I believe that one can live one's life just as you describe and still have the assurance that there is a heaven and even that one is assured of it. One does not have to live all of life as if buying fire insurance. Indeed when the way to heaven is found in being conformed to the image of Christ place within us, then the life you speak of and the Christian life are one in the same, and one lives it not to seek heaven, but to live the life of Christ in this world.

[evangel]

It's on Kolob.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob

You get loads of stuff free and dont have to work for it and your assigned a planet of your own to rule. Which would be pretty cool.

Mines going to be made out of gataux and have a ice-Cream sea. the trees are going to grow beer bottles on them.

You should check out the Mormons, all 144,000 that make it to heaven get to be god of a planet of their own.:rollseyes

[evangel]

I've read many things in this post about baptism and works and that my belief when I say I know I'll go to heaven is based on something I've done and is arrogant (actually I agree that it would be arrogant to assume that I could do so well here that I would assure myself a place in heaven).
Why I believe this is not based on any of these things, after all the one thief on the cross who recognized Jesus as Lord didn't get baptised or do any good deeds. Basically the only thing he had time to do was die and Jesus told him He would see him in heaven. My believing starts with grace.
Grace makes heaven a free gift. Paul writes in Romans:
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life ...."
Also I neither earn or deserve it because grace is written of again in Ephesians:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

If someone were to buy me an expensive gift and I tried to give them a few bucks it would no longer be a gift. So I cannot add to it, I can't pay for a gift or earn a gift I can only accept a gift.

[barney]

You should check out the Mormons, all 144,000 that make it to heaven get to be god of a planet of their own.:rollseyes

yah! I noes:D
Pretty rocking huh?

[Grace Seeker]

You should check out the Mormons, all 144,000 that make it to heaven get to be god of a planet of their own.:rollseyes

yah! I noes:D
Pretty rocking huh?

I think you got a couple of groups combined in confusion.


Mormons don't have any limit on the number of God's spirit children who can eventually become gods of their own worlds.

Jehovah's Witnesses limit to 144,000 the number who will reign with God in heaven and the rest who are found worthy will live in a paradise of God's creation on this earth.


Can anyone else see why I don't consider either of these two groups Christian?
(In truth, it isn't their warped views of heaven but their warped views of Christ which cause me to make that statement.)

[evangel]

I think you got a couple of groups combined in confusion.


Mormons don't have any limit on the number of God's spirit children who can eventually become gods of their own worlds.

Jehovah's Witnesses limit to 144,000 the number who will reign with God in heaven and the rest who are found worthy will live in a paradise of God's creation on this earth.


Can anyone else see why I don't consider either of these two groups Christian?
(In truth, it isn't their warped views of heaven but their warped views of Christ which cause me to make that statement.)

Thanks, it's hard keeping the different cults staight. Just think, one of these future planet commanders is running for president.

[Grace Seeker]

But remember atheism only deals with "god" many atheist do believe in things including some sort of after life.

Can you explain this to me? I have a hard time seeing how the two can fit in one cosmology. I understand how Buddhism teaches this, but not non-religious atheism.

[evangel]

lol i like the atheist one. But remember atheism only deals with "god" many atheist do believe in things including some sort of after life.

Can you explain this to me? I have a hard time seeing how the two can fit in one cosmology. I understand how Buddhism teaches this, but not non-religious atheism.

That's called hedging your bet, but when you bet on both sides you still lose it may not seem that you lose as much but you gain nothing.

[barney]

Any need to hedge a bet?

I would assume that a Atheist would discard the need for a afterlife.
So who's going to pay the bet if you win?

Sounds more like polythisim to me :)

[ranma1/2]

Can you explain this to me? I have a hard time seeing how the two can fit in one cosmology. I understand how Buddhism teaches this, but not non-religious atheism.

all atheism deals with is the existence in a god or gods or not.
the supernatural, life after death, morality, what i had for lunch etc.. is a seperate matter.

Atheist do tend to be skeptics and as such likely do not believe in the afterlife but thats just for those particular atheist and not atheism as a whole.

[Grace Seeker]

all atheism deals with is the existence in a god or gods or not.
the supernatural, life after death, morality, what i had for lunch etc.. is a seperate matter.

Atheist do tend to be skeptics and as such likely do not believe in the afterlife but thats just for those particular atheist and not atheism as a whole.

So, then while many atheists would not, you see it as falling within the sphere of atheism for a person to accept beliefs in the supernatural as long as that which is outside of nature is not defined as a divine being?

Does this mean that an atheist could believe in spirits and spirit beings?

Could an atheist believe in "The Force" as portrayed in the Star Wars movies?

[ranma1/2]

So, then while many atheists would not, you see it as falling within the sphere of atheism for a person to accept beliefs in the supernatural as long as that which is outside of nature is not defined as a divine being?

Does this mean that an atheist could believe in spirits and spirit beings?

Could an atheist believe in "The Force" as portrayed in the Star Wars movies?

Yes and yes. Many buddhist are atheists. Many atheists believe in ghosts, reincarnation etc...

Also remember that you and everyone is an atheist to one degree or another.
"You of course dont likely believe in zeus, ball, neptune, gia etc..... and in that degree you are an atheist in terms of those gods"

[Grace Seeker]

Also remember that you and everyone is an atheist to one degree or another.
"You of course dont likely believe in zeus, ball, neptune, gia etc..... and in that degree you are an atheist in terms of those gods"

That is an interesting way of thinking of atheism. I understand that indeed when Abraham first expressed the idea that he would worship the one God, YHWH, that the people of Mesopotamia would have considered him an atheist for rejecting their gods. I take it that this is what you mean, that because I do not accept say the gods of the Hindu religion or the gods of Greek mythology that I am an atheist. But I hardly think that such a definition is what one means by a declaration of atheism today.

I understand atheism to mean a lack of belief in any God or gods. Thus, by my way of thinking a Hindu, or an animist believes in false gods, but does believe in some concept of a god and is therefore not an atheist. And I would suppose they would say the same about me.

But you come across as one who accepts a reality which includes spiritual beings and yet denies the existence of divine beings. I'm still trying to understand how you hold both views at the same time. Obviously, in your mind, spiritual beings are not divine beings. And I can see that; they could simply be a different order of created beings, or I suppose even evolved beings. But if created, then there is a creator. And if evolved, then we have something of a conundrum of physics on the order of magnitude which makes string theory look like Kindgergarten material.

[ranma1/2]

[QUOTE=Grace Seeker;769787]That is an interesting way of thinking of atheism. ......... But I hardly think that such a definition is what one means by a declaration of atheism today.

like i said, i think, it depends on what form of atheism you refer to. There are several types depending on the level to which you do not believe.

....

But you come across as one who accepts a reality which includes spiritual beings and yet denies the existence of divine beings.
I'm still trying to understand how you hold both views at the same time. Obviously, in your mind, spiritual beings are not divine beings. And I can see that; they could simply be a different order of created beings, or I suppose even evolved beings

Actually i do not believe in any spiritual beings. "of course the word spiritual it self is pretty vague". If ghosts or similar thigns exists i wbleive that they would have a 100% scientific answer.


But if created, then there is a creator.
Nothing to my knowledge has ever been created "exnilo" many things have been formed and do not need something with an intelegence to form them.


And if evolved, then we have something of a conundrum of physics on the order of magnitude which makes string theory look like Kindgergarten material.

Pardon? Could you name this conundurm?
Evolution is overall very simple. It just requires 2 things "for the most part" imperfect replictation and selection.

In this case, mutations and natural selection "although there are other likely selection factors such as sexual selection to name one"

[Woodrow]

I'm not trying to pick on you ranma1/2 but I found this sentence a touch ironic.

ike i said, i think, it depends on what form of atheism you refer to. There are several types depending on the level to which you do not believe.

I can not understand how an atheist can have different levels of disbelief?

[ranma1/2]

I'm not trying to pick on you ranma1/2 but I found this sentence a touch ironic.



I can not understand how an atheist can have different levels of disbelief?

Well how many gods do you disbelieve in?

The differnce between you me and is just one.

[Woodrow]

Well how many gods do you disbelieve in?

The differnce between you me and is just one.

I'm dense today. I probably have a warped brain this morning. I can not seem to
visualize the concept of quanitying a disbelieve. I can see quantifying belief as I can say I believe in One God(swt). I can not quantify how many gods I do not believe in except to say all except the One True God(swt). But, that will not enumerate what I do not believe.

OK I admit I am brain dead today.

[Grace Seeker]

I'm dense today. I probably have a warped brain this morning. I can not seem to
visualize the concept of quanitying a disbelieve. I can see quantifying belief as I can say I believe in One God(swt). I can not quantify how many gods I do not believe in except to say all except the One True God(swt). But, that will not enumerate what I do not believe.

OK I admit I am brain dead today.

No, I don't think you are. Let me state what I think ranma is saying, and then let's see if he corrects me.


As best I understand ranma's logic, since you don't believe in Jesus as being God incarnate and I do, that (in his mind, not mine) makes you an atheist to me. And since I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit -- i.e. the Three-in-One God and you do not, that (in the thinking of ranma) makes me an atheist to your beliefs in Allah as the one true God who has no partners.

(Though, as an aside, I still submit that my belief in the Three-in-One God also does not ascribe partners to God for I claim he is only one God of three persons, but one being with no additional partners.)

So, as best I understand ranma, even though we are both believers in God we are still also both atheists at the same time. In my opinion, (if this is a true representation of ranma's beliefs, and I may still be mistaken) such talking is nonsense for it actually makes all persons atheists, which in the end makes the term itself meaningless. And meaningless talk is just so much nonsense, might as well be Jabberwocky.

[smile]

only Allah knows

[Pygoscelis]

So, then while many atheists would not, you see it as falling within the sphere of atheism for a person to accept beliefs in the supernatural as long as that which is outside of nature is not defined as a divine being?

Does this mean that an atheist could believe in spirits and spirit beings?

Could an atheist believe in "The Force" as portrayed in the Star Wars movies?

I know some atheists who believe in ghosts. I know one atheist who believes in psychics too. I find those beliefs as irrational as god beliefs, but these folks are still atheists (they don't believe in gods).

Atheism is nothing more than a non-belief in god(s). It says nothing else about a person. Too often religious folks try to assign a worldview to atheism - but I'm sorry, atheists just don't fit in any one box. We have no doctrines or beliefs we all agree on, no authority figure we all look to, no holy book or prophet. This is why it is next to impossible for "atheist groups" to form and exist beyond a backlash to the religious. Indeed there are even atheists who are non-secularists and see religion as a good thing in society. I'm not one of them, but they're out there. When I hear you are a muslim or that you are a christian or that you are a jew there are certain assumptions I can make that go along with those statements, not so when you hear i am an atheist.

[Grace Seeker]

I know some atheists who believe in ghosts. I know one atheist who believes in psychics too. I find those beliefs as irrational as god beliefs, but these folks are still atheists (they don't believe in gods).

Atheism is nothing more than a non-belief in god(s). It says nothing else about a person. Too often religious folks try to assign a worldview to atheism - but I'm sorry, atheists just don't fit in any one box. We have no doctrines or beliefs we all agree on, no authority figure we all look to, no holy book or prophet. This is why it is next to impossible for "atheist groups" to form and exist beyond a backlash to the religious. Indeed there are even atheists who are non-secularists and see religion as a good thing in society. I'm not one of them, but they're out there. When I hear you are a muslim or that you are a christian or that you are a jew there are certain assumptions I can make that go along with those statements, not so when you hear i am an atheist.

Well, Pygoscelis, I'm glad to see that you are at least internally consistent with your own beliefs. Can you see why I might wonder about those atheists who do believe in various sorts of other supernatural beings, but don't believe in any sort of divine being because they claim those beliefs to be irrational mumbo gumbo?

[Ebtisweetsam]

Obviously I chose I dont know.... no human on the face of the Earth (today) would know that answer.... Allah (SWT) only knows a person's last words/ actions, whether they will be worthy enough to enter Paradise. You may have been good all day, but for the wrong intentions enter Hell, or vice versa.... very old Poll, by the way...:?

[truemuslim]

Allahu Alim

[Pygoscelis]

Well, Pygoscelis, I'm glad to see that you are at least internally consistent with your own beliefs. Can you see why I might wonder about those atheists who do believe in various sorts of other supernatural beings, but don't believe in any sort of divine being because they claim those beliefs to be irrational mumbo gumbo?

Flip it around. If you believe in Gods (and indeed in very specific Gods rather than just some vague concept of a higher power) is it inconsistent of you to not believe in ghosts, psychics, and other irrational mumbo jumbo?

[Woodrow]

Flip it around. If you believe in Gods (and indeed in very specific Gods rather than just some vague concept of a higher power) is it inconsistent of you to not believe in ghosts, psychics, and other irrational mumbo jumbo?

Not really, But it could mean that you believe in God(swt), but do not believe humans have eternal life.

I do believe in the existence of Jinn and Angels, but I am a doubter in believing humans can come back as ghosts, be visible to some people and haunt places.

[Muslim Woman]

salaam/peace;

i voted yaaaaaaaaa :D


God promised in Quran that believers will go to
heaven. So , even if on the last day , for some mistakes , we have to enter into hell eeeee may Allah forbid ....later surely ( God Willing ) , we will come out of fire & enter paradise :okay:


i recently came back from Hajj & I prayed Allah to accept my Hajj & InshaAllah my prayer will be answered :)

i hope , it's ok to say that I won't be thrown in to hell fire if i die today.

See u all in heaven InshaAllah

[Grace Seeker]

Flip it around. If you believe in Gods (and indeed in very specific Gods rather than just some vague concept of a higher power) is it inconsistent of you to not believe in ghosts, psychics, and other irrational mumbo jumbo?

What Woodrow said, and add to that that it would be inconsistent of me to believe that that might be other forms of supernatural beings beyond God.

But you didn't take your flip far enough. If there is a omniscient divine being that is able and ultimately chooses to reveal himself and other things to you and he tells you about what does and does not exist, and you choose to believe in things he says are not real and not believe in things he says are, then that would just be pure madness of the order of belief in talking trees, that humans can fly, or the government is reading our secret thoughts.

[Pygoscelis]

But you didn't take your flip far enough. If there is a omniscient divine being that is able and ultimately chooses to reveal himself and other things to you and he tells you about what does and does not exist, and you choose to believe in things he says are not real and not believe in things he says are, then that would just be pure madness of the order of belief in talking trees, that humans can fly, or the government is reading our secret thoughts.

You believe your God has told you that there is no such thing as ghosts or psychics?

Also, how would you interpret sensory information that clearly conflicts with what you believe your God has told you? Would this word of God tump your own sensory information. For example what if ghosts and psychics are real and you actually had a direct experience with one. Or what if God told you something that according to your senses clearly isn't so, like if he told you that you yourself do not exist?

The whole concept of "choosing to believe in things he says are not real and not beleive in things he says are" baffles me personally. I don't think I could choose to believe or disbelieve in something just because I'm told to, or even if I really really wanted to. I either believe something or I don't. I can't control that. You can?

[truemuslim]

wow this thread is getting soooo off topic now...soo...

:threadclo


nah jk i isnt a mod.lol

[Grace Seeker]

You believe your God has told you that there is no such thing as ghosts or psychics?

I never said what I believed. I thought we were talking hypotheticals here. So I was just posing a question.

The whole concept of "choosing to believe in things he says are not real and not beleive in things he says are" baffles me personally. I don't think I could choose to believe or disbelieve in something just because I'm told to, or even if I really really wanted to. I either believe something or I don't. I can't control that. You can?

But I do find it interesting that if a being that was omniscient told you something was or wasn't so, that you would not believe. I suppose that makes sense if you think that said being would be a liar. But my own predisposition is that eventually you have to trust that when your teachers tell you 2+2=4 that it really does, when your dad says the grass needs cutting that it really does, and that if an omniscient being tells you something that such information can be believed and trusted. On the other hand, if throughout your life your experience was that people can't be trusted, I could see how that might spill over into your beliefs with regard to any supernatural being as well. However, I really am sorry if you've had such a crappy life as to learn to mistrust others so much.

[Pygoscelis]

But I do find it interesting that if a being that was omniscient told you something was or wasn't so, that you would not believe.

Well first there'd be the question of omnicience. How can you know if somebody is truly omnicient unless you are omnicient yourself (and if you were then you wouldn't need them right?).

Then there's the question of if they were telling you the truth, yes.

However, I really am sorry if you've had such a crappy life as to learn to mistrust others so much.

It has nothing to do with having a crappy life and mistrusting others. To blindly accept any claim as iron clad fact without any thought or investigation of your own is in itself troubling. And to myself believe something fantastic simply by willpower or by accepting what another says is something I don't think I could do. I don't think I have control over what I believe and what I don't believe. Even if you offered me a million dollars to believe my house is made of green cheese, I don't think I could win the money.

[Ibn Al Aqwa]

9 people voted yes :?

Maybe it would be better if this thread was closed, or at least the poll removed...

WaSalaam...

[Grace Seeker]

Well first there'd be the question of omnicience. How can you know if somebody is truly omnicient unless you are omnicient yourself (and if you were then you wouldn't need them right?).

Actually, that's a pretty good point.

So, not being omniscient, how can we determine whether anyone is ever telling us the truth? Are there somethings that we accept based on what we pereceive as reason and other things that we accept simply by faith or apriori assumptions? What makes one thing fit one category and another be determined a different way?

And, bringing it back to the topic of the thread, how does any of that effect our views with regard to heaven/hell/life after death?

[Jayda]

If you died today would you go to heaven?

hola,

i would not deserve to, but i might. i accepted the New Covenant and so Jesus has died for my sins and as long as i confess and repent they will not be upon me. that is how i believe Salvation is attainable... but if that means i am going to go to heaven depends ultimately on how God judges me... i do not know.

que Dios te bendiga