A day in Gods world is a million here

[barney]

Hi.

My Mum and lots of other Christians answer the question.
"Umm the world developed over millions of years...so whats with the 7 days thingy", with the response, " Ahh, but a day here is like a million or something in heaven....and God knows best"

Anyone know when this phenomenon took off? i mean If God told Abraham or whatever prophet he was talking to at the time, the world was made in 7 days...why diddnt he just say, the world was made in 7000000000 of your earth years. Totally less confusing. i'm sure if the ancients hadnt a number for 70000000000 then God could have said " Each day that the world was made in was equal to a sand bucket and each grain was a year, after half a bucket I made Birds and after a cupful of sand I seperated light from dark, which is quite a trick , cos what were they before eh? lighty-dark? Anyway, then after the bucket was nearly full I created man...and It was good"

But he diddnt. He said 7 Days. Islam says he diddnt have to rest and it was 5 (?) days and the jews had misheard this or deliberatly changed it.

So when did the Church /Clergy /immams start saying "A day is a billion squillion years". Was it at the time when carbon dating proved that Birds came 200 million years after "Beasts of the land".

Cos if so then it just so smacks of the prophets getting racked off with thousands of people queing up and asking questions like .
"Is My blue your blue? "
"I just gotta know! how long did this place take to be built? Ask him!"
"If I eat my own leg, do i still weight the same?"
"Whats with Spanials! Why are their legs so short?"

[Woodrow]

One thing I have learned from when I lived in the mid east. The Arab concept of time for much of the Arab world does not equate with Western thought. Oddly when you read about it in Arabic it makes sense. The best way to say it is the concept of Youm(day) seems to make more sense if you think of it in terms of just meaning a period of time rather than as 24 hours. Although it can mean the period from one sunrise to the next sunrise.

The rest of your questions I do not have sufficient knowledge to even attempt to answer.

[barney]

Yeah, thats my point though. we take it now as a "period of time".
We could have taken it as a "period of time" when it was revealed to the prophets. But God said 7 days.

That was all well and good for thousands of years before we learned the actual ages of things. Now we know it wasnt 7 days or 5 days or whatever days.

as soon as we did, the beleivers of all those faiths simply say "ahh but a day is a period of time". Well why diddnt God say it was a period of time then?

And why did this idea of a "period of time" suddenly start with the discovery of earths make-up.

If you told a guy in 1520AD that the world was made in 7 days, he would be happy. Sure..OK ...he would say....Cant prove any different.But now we can.

Basically the "million years= a day and period of time" arguements have changed gods word as it was reveled in order to shore up the religions.

[Woodrow]

Yeah, thats my point though. we take it now as a "period of time".
We could have taken it as a "period of time" when it was revealed to the prophets. But God said 7 days.

That was all well and good for thousands of years before we learned the actual ages of things. Now we know it wasnt 7 days or 5 days or whatever days.

as soon as we did, the beleivers of all those faiths simply say "ahh but a day is a period of time". Well why diddnt God say it was a period of time then?

And why did this idea of a "period of time" suddenly start with the discovery of earths make-up.

If you told a guy in 1520AD that the world was made in 7 days, he would be happy. Sure..OK ...he would say....Cant prove any different.But now we can.

Basically the "million years= a day and period of time" arguements have changed gods word as it was reveled in order to shore up the religions.

I'm not certain as to what Hebrew word was used in the Torah. But if memory serves me right they also used the word youm. The mideastern concept of time has always been vague to me. I have come across many Mideasterners Muslim, Christian and Jewish tell me that we have been in the same youm since Adam(PBUH) but the youm has been divided by many nights.

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[barney]

Thanks for the reply, I'll look into that.
Well thats fair enough for Islam then, although the idea of a word that can mean a specific period of time or just period of time is weird to me. but if thats what it is...thats what it is and it lets Islam out the door on this point.

Christianity and Judism next! Whats the answer! Why are preists saying "a million years = a day when God said a day, and why did this answer only appear when carbon dating appeared?

[Fishman]

That was all well and good for thousands of years before we learned the actual ages of things. Now we know it wasnt 7 days or 5 days or whatever days.

as soon as we did, the beleivers of all those faiths simply say "ahh but a day is a period of time".

:sl:
Yusuf Ali's translation of the Qur'an is pretty old (from the 1930's) and he still says that the 'days' are actually periods of time.
:w:

[Trumble]

Anyone know when this phenomenon took off?

Presumably the original Jewish creation myth (or whatever that derived from) was taken seriously, or some people began to take it seriously. The other religions just adopted the same myth. As you have pretty much suggested the linguistic hoops are just are an attempt to avoid the fact that the myth is obvious twaddle and are possibly just plausible enough to allow same if you believe in the divine origin of the descriptions concerned. It may well point to something deeper or be allegorical in some way - such is the way with myths.

[Keltoi]

Strangely I've never actually heard of this concept of 1 day=a million.

[Strzelecki]

My thought has always been how can God be restricted by our concept of time?

[Woodrow]

Time is basicaly a human concept used a unit of measurement. I can not think of how "Time" can be applied to an eternal God(swt).

We can not even prove that two clocks standing side by side are measuring the same second equally.

It is fairly well accepted that a second measured on earth would not be the same as a second measured on a space ship traveling at the speed of light, although all instruments on the space ship would show it as the same and it would feel the same to any people on the space ship. But, many years on earth would pass as that one second on the space ship passed and in our measurements they would both be one second.

[islamirama]

My thought has always been how can God be restricted by our concept of time?

I agree. How often do we say a dog is this many years old (measuring by OUR time) rather then say the dog is this many years old (measuring by dog years)?

A day is the length of time that it takes a planet to rotate on its axis (360°). A day on Earth takes almost 24 hours.

The planet with the longest day is Venus; a day on Venus takes 243 Earth days. (A day on Venus is longer than its year; a year on Venus takes only 224.7 Earth days).

The planet with the shortest day is Jupiter; a day on Jupiter only takes 9.8 Earth hours! When you observe Jupiter from Earth, you can see some of its features change.

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/sub...onomy/planets/

So how does someone from jupitar or venus measure how long the earth was created for? how about someone from space? Why do they feel the need to say earth years, when they say day as we say day but they day is not the same as ours.

Hi.

My Mum and lots of other Christians answer the question.
"Umm the world developed over millions of years...so whats with the 7 days thingy", with the response, " Ahh, but a day here is like a million or something in heaven....and God knows best"

Anyone know when this phenomenon took off? i mean If God told Abraham or whatever prophet he was talking to at the time, the world was made in 7 days...why diddnt he just say, the world was made in 7000000000 of your earth years. Totally less confusing. i'm sure if the ancients hadnt a number for 70000000000 then God could have said " Each day that the world was made in was equal to a sand bucket and each grain was a year, after half a bucket I made Birds and after a cupful of sand I seperated light from dark, which is quite a trick , cos what were they before eh? lighty-dark? Anyway, then after the bucket was nearly full I created man...and It was good"

But he diddnt. He said 7 Days. Islam says he diddnt have to rest and it was 5 (?) days and the jews had misheard this or deliberatly changed it.

So when did the Church /Clergy /immams start saying "A day is a billion squillion years". Was it at the time when carbon dating proved that Birds came 200 million years after "Beasts of the land".

Cos if so then it just so smacks of the prophets getting racked off with thousands of people queing up and asking questions like .
"Is My blue your blue? "
"I just gotta know! how long did this place take to be built? Ask him!"
"If I eat my own leg, do i still weight the same?"
"Whats with Spanials! Why are their legs so short?"

I don't know where you got the idea of 7days for christians and jews and 5 days for Muslims. The earth was created in 6days according to all 3 faiths, with difference being that the people of the book says God rested on 7th day while Islam says God is Al-Mighty and doens't get tired nor needs rest.

And we don't need to say 1 day = xxx now and change our knowledge and belief becuase of what science has revealed. Islam is the truth where as science is nothing more than error and trials. Science is a guessing game where you make a guess (hypotesis) and then you prove your guess to be right or wrong and then that is a fact for you. But this fact is not absolute fact becuase science advances in time as does our knowledge and then we find out what we thought to be the fact and true is false now according to our new knowledge and discoveries.

A recent example is alcohol. At first doctors said wine is ok in small doses for pregnant women, just last week a new news article came out that said that the previous facts are false and that it's not ok and pregnant women shouldn't drink one bit.

Anyways, the point being that science is not absolute and what it true today may not be true tomorrow. What rock you examined today with our current methods may not be as old as it is by the advance science of tomorrow.

Anyways, here's some interesting readings for you.

Is a day with Allaah one thousand years or fifty thousand years?

haykh Muhammad al-Ameen al-Shanqeeti said in his book Daf’ Ayhaam al-Idtiraab ‘an Aayaat al-Kitaab (p. 158):

“The aayah (interpretation of the meaning) ‘…And, verily, a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you reckon’ [al-Hajj 22:47] indicates that the length of a day with Allaah is a thousand years. The same is indicated by the aayah (interpretation of the meaning) ‘He arranges (every) affair from the heavens to the earth, then it (the affair) will go up to Him, in one Day, the space whereof is a thousand years of your reckoning.’ [al-Sajdah 32:5]. Another aayah indicates something different (interpretation of the meaning): ‘The angels and the Rooh [Jibreel] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years’ [al-Ma’aarij 70:4].

There are two ways in which these aayaat may be reconciled:

The first was reported by Ibn Abi Haatim via Sammaak from ‘Ikrimah from Ibn ‘Abbaas: the day of a thousand years mentioned in Soorat al-Hajj is one of the six days in which Allaah created the heavens and the earth; the day of a thousand years mentioned in Soorat al-Sajdah is the length of time it takes for a matter to go up to Allaah; and the day of fifty thousand years is the Day of Resurrection.

The second (way of reconciling the aayaat) is that what is meant by all of them is the Day of Resurrection, and the difference in the time span depends on whether a person is a believer or a kaafir. This is indicated by the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): ‘Truly that Day will be a Hard Day, far from easy for the disbelievers.” [al-Muddaththir 74:9-10]. These two suggestions were mentioned by the author of al-Itqaan. And Allaah knows best.”

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

Like woodrow mentioned, the time concept in the west is different then the east. The west its 24hrs no matter what. But also its a fact that days are longer in the summer and shorter in the winter (measured by day light of course). Even in the old days in the west, time was measured as it is in the east today. Summers are longer than winters. When the sun goes doesn, its night time and people than go to sleep.

So a day with Allah based on above readings is a 1000yrs. And to contradict you, Allah does tell us in the Quran how long that day is in human years

*{...verily a day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.}* (Al-Hajj 22:47)

And the 50,000yrs yeas will be the day of Resurrection. It will be a day streched out to the max and would equal to 50,000 years for us. Think of it as one loooong hot summer day.

Anyways, Here's some Islamic view on the following...


Were the heavens and the earth created in six days or eight?

Creation of the earth and universe



(1) The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran

A) The Quran on Human Embryonic Development
B) The Quran on Mountains
C) The Quran on the Origin of the Universe
D) The Quran on the Cerebrum
E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers
F) The Quran on Deeps Seas and Internal Waves
G) The Quran on Clouds
H) Scientists’ Comments on the Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran (with RealPlayer Video)

[Walter]

Hi Barney:

The Bible defines the day during the creation; therefore the period of time defined as one day is contextual.

Genesis 1:31 - Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

This definition is similar for the previous days. Therefore we can reasonably assume that the scriptural account is dealing with hours rather than millions of years.

We now have at least two choices. We can assume that God did create the world as recorded and interpret the evidence accordingly, or we can disbelieve the scriptural account and interpret the evidence accordingly. The evidence can be interpreted or misinterpreted either way.

The responsible response in secular schools would then be to simply present the evidence. If the schools chose to interpret the evidence, then they should present both interpretations without bias. Regrettably the secular schools are behaving very irresponsibly in this regard.

Grenville

[barney]

Well thats one way of looking at it.
But if the Bible was to say something like "The moon is made of Spongecake", then schools should teach this:
"The Bible teaches that the moon is made of spongecake, some people have found crumbs on the floor, that have no other explaination, It is a probability that the moon is indeed a form of cake."

I would support this teaching...right up till 1969, when the Americans landed there and proved it had no culinary connections.

Then It's my beleif that then, schools should stop teaching the Cake theory.

[Joe98]

Therefore we can reasonably assume that the scriptural account is dealing with hours rather than millions of years.

No you can't.

If god is all powerful he could have done it in seconds!

A day is defined as 24 hours. This is how long it takes for the earth to rotate on it’s axis.

Before the earth was made there was no earth and no rotation.

If there was no rotation there was no way to measure a day. And therefore no way to measure a second.

Ultimately the whole story is fiction.

[Woodrow]

No you can't.

If god is all powerful he could have done it in seconds!

A day is defined as 24 hours. This is how long it takes for the earth to rotate on it’s axis.

Before the earth was made there was no earth and no rotation.

If there was no rotation there was no way to measure a day. And therefore no way to measure a second.

Ultimately the whole story is fiction.

If there was no rotation there was no way to measure a day. And therefore no way to measure a second.

No way for a Human to measure a second as time by us is measured by the movement of one object in relation to another. In reality time is a measurement and not an object nor a force. There is no way we can comprehend the duration any events prior to the concept of time was developed.

[Malaikah]

If god is all powerful he could have done it in seconds!

Perhaps your understanding of power is that of a young man who starts working out at the gym and can't wait to show off his new found strength?

Allah is not only all Powerful but He is also Wise, therefore you would expect that He did things the way He did not only because He has the Power to do so, but because He has the Wisdom.

[Joe98]

Therefore we can reasonably assume that the scriptural account is dealing with hours rather than millions of years.

You will note that Grenville is very adamant on this point.

There is no way we can comprehend the duration any events prior to the concept of time was developed.

Then why do the various holy books state how long it took to create the earth?

The answer is: When people don’t understand something they make up a reason. God is an invention of man.

[Muslim Knight]

No you can't.

If god is all powerful he could have done it in seconds!

Because God is All-Powerful, He wouldn't have to listen to your whims.

[barney]

Then why do the various holy books state how long it took to create the earth?

.

Joe. If you were a prophet , your getting asked 24/7 how big space is, what shape the world is, what is the crop harvest going to be like and why the sea is wobbely.
Eventually....even if your on a direct line to God him/het/itself,...you get a bit fed up and say ..7 DAYS OK? 7 FLAMING DAYS!..NOW GO!

Then they all scatter, until one guy comes back timidly and asks " So what did he make on tuesday?"

[lilah]

No you can't.

If god is all powerful he could have done it in seconds!

A day is defined as 24 hours. This is how long it takes for the earth to rotate on it’s axis.

Before the earth was made there was no earth and no rotation.

If there was no rotation there was no way to measure a day. And therefore no way to measure a second.

Ultimately the whole story is fiction.

Oh great, are you suggesting that time is a concept that only exists on earth? I guess the laws of physics only exist here on earth, since most equations i come across involve a letter 't' maybe the 't' is supposed to stand for 'tubular'. Hey, maybe before earth was made there was no physics too! :giggling:

Do you honestly believe that a day on earth was exactly 24 hours long 4 billion years ago? Scientists estimate that the earth's rotation was roughly 6.5 hours per night/day cycle.

Additionally, I thought I read somewhere about time being a relative thing...but since my knowledge of the subject matter is rusty, i will refrain on making a comment on this particular issue.

[barney]

Well the concept of time being different on venus is all well and good.

So Gods a space alien? He lives out on a far away planet?

More to the point, if time dosnt matter to him, why try and explain a time period? If you do explain a time period...why not do it in a language you audience might understand.
I can say that my tea was made in 14.3 wibbles. But nobody but me will understand that, so why say it? Nope, I'll use your earth time thanks.

[lilah]

Well the concept of time being different on venus is all well and good.

So Gods a space alien? He lives out on a far away planet?

More to the point, if time dosnt matter to him, why try and explain a time period? If you do explain a time period...why not do it in a language you audience might understand.
I can say that my tea was made in 14.3 wibbles. But nobody but me will understand that, so why say it? Nope, I'll use your earth time thanks.

rofl, you already complain that God's words are too confusing for you...now you want him to explain a concepts in a manner that cannot be understood by a creation bound by the dimension in which they live? I understand the word yaoum...and i take it most people understand the word 'period', day, and so on....do you?

joe98 was really confident in his definition of what a day is...so maybe the word 'day' can be confusing for most.

[barney]

rofl, you already complain that God's words are too confusing for you...now you want him to explain a concepts in a manner that cannot be understood by a creation bound by the dimension in which they live? I understand the word yaoum...and i take it most people understand the word 'period', day, and so on....do you?

joe98 was really confident in his definition of what a day is...so maybe the word 'day' can be confusing for most.

I think you misunderstood.

I'm saying he should have called a spade a spade.
I havn't researched "youm" but for the moment , i'll accept it means "period of time".
The Jewish arguement that the world popped into existance millions of years old makes no sense at all. Theres lots of apologists leaping through fiery hoops with equivating years to heavenly days and vise versa and tapping furiously away on calculators to "prove" that their religion "got it right".

Unfortunatly it's not working.

[lilah]

I think you misunderstood.

I'm saying he should have called a spade a spade.
I havn't researched "youm" but for the moment , i'll accept it means "period of time".
The Jewish arguement that the world popped into existance millions of years old makes no sense at all. Theres lots of apologists leaping through fiery hoops with equivating years to heavenly days and vise versa and tapping furiously away on calculators to "prove" that their religion "got it right".

Unfortunatly it's not working.

ah, i c...

still, it's hard to call a spade a spade if the word spade has multiple meanings...which it does :D

I've never really read the Bible in it's entirety, but i do have to say the meaning of words have a habit of changing. Unfortunately, i don't have a copy of the original Biblical scripts on hand to back it up, but maybe the original word got lost in the translation....or perhaps the word 'day' took on multiple meanings way back in history. I know the word 'Father' and the word 'Lord' in the Bible have additional meanings in English that differ from there current usage by modern Christians, maybe the word 'day' is similar in this situation, but i don't know...like i said, I've never really read the bible so i don't want to speak out of ignorance in regards to the topic.

:statisfie

[Walter]

Joe98:

Where do I begin? Let me address each of your statements.

You stated: "No you can't."

Why not? Did you not read my supportive arguments?

You stated: “If god is all powerful he could have done it in seconds!”

Of course he could have, but such a statement is irrelevant to your argument.

You stated: “A day is defined as 24 hours. This is how long it takes for the earth to rotate on it’s axis.”

We can agree on that.

You stated: “Before the earth was made there was no earth and no rotation.”

We can also agree on that.

You stated: “If there was no rotation there was no way to measure a day. And therefore no way to measure a second.”

We can also agree on that as well. But where is all of this going? Where is the relevance?

You concluded: “Ultimately the whole story is fiction.”

Joe. Where is your argument? You simply presented obvious statements and then concluded without providing one single supporting argument.

Do you not know that the definition of time was made after the creation of the earth in the scriptural account?

It seems that your basic error arises from your unfamiliarity with the scriptures. I would strongly recommend that you first read the Bible and the Koran before commenting or entering into debate on Biblical and Koran based issues.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi Barney:

You noted “If the Bible was to say …” but we both know that it does not; therefore why present such an irrelevant analogy.

Regards,
Grenville

[Philosopher]

There is no such thing as "time." "Time" is merely a human construct.

[carpetguy]

i agree with the last comment

[Muezzin]

There is no such thing as "time."

I disagree. It does exist, it just has no ontological reality. Like the notion of 'crime'.

"Time" is merely a human construct.

I agree. It's a very useful construct though. Again, like the notion of 'crime'.

[Philosopher]

I disagree. It does exist, it just has no ontological reality. Like the notion of 'crime'.

Wrong. "Time:" is as flawed a concept as "race."

I agree. It's a very useful construct though. Again, like the notion of 'crime'.

It may be useful, but it doesnt mean it exists. Do you think there is such a thing as "race?" Both are concepts developed by humans, not reality.

[lilah]

There is no such thing as "time." "Time" is merely a human construct.

ROFL!

I guess you've never taken a physics course?

[lilah]

V = Vo + at ..... what does the 't' stand for? if 't' is a human concept does that mean that concept of 'velocity' is a human one....

X= Xo + Vot + 1/2 at^2 .... maybe the way we define a position is a human concept... it really isn't real

P = dW/dT ..... uhh, sorry, no such thing as momentum,


those danged physics profs wasted my time my first year of college didn't they....i think every physics 101 book should come with a disclamer that 1/2 the stuff inside the text is a made up human concept :giggling:

[Trumble]

those danged physics profs wasted my time my first year of college didn't they....i think every physics 101 book should come with a disclamer that 1/2 the stuff inside the text is a made up human concept :giggling:

They would be wrong, 1/2 is 1/2 too short. I'm afraid Philosopher is quite right ; the whole lot is just human concepts, time, momentum, whatever. They have no independent existence - and even if they did it would be impossible to prove it. Without people neither the equations or what they represent have any meaning at all... they would never have existed.

[lilah]

They would be wrong, 1/2 is 1/2 too short. I'm afraid Philosopher is quite right ; the whole lot is just human concepts, time, momentum, whatever. They have no independent existence - and even if they did it would be impossible to prove it. Without people neither the equations or what they represent have any meaning at all... they would never have existed.

It depends on how you define existence. If you define existence based on your senses, then there really is no way you can prove whether light, time, magnetism, or you exist. For example, lets say you are blind, deaf, and you do not have the ability to feel through your senses. All of your senses you have that help you identify things are turned off. Would I exit? I may be standing right in front of you ...according to your philosophy, I wouldn't exist because you don't have your senses to detect me. Therefore if you define time not so much as a measurement, but a progression of events, you can 'have time pass you buy' and not even know it. So just because you can't perceive time, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You just have to discover it.
So turn your senses back on and get enlightened.

now, as for this debate about the definition of 'day'. The word day can still mean 'a period of time'. When we think about the word 'day' we automatically assume that we are talking about a solar day, ie; a period of one rotation of the earth around it's axis.

Galaxies rotate along their axis....couldn't 1 rotation of a galaxy be considered a 'day'? Does the universe rotate? I'm not trying to say the bible is implying anything like this, i just though I'd through out an interesting idea....

[barney]

Hi Barney:

You noted “If the Bible was to say …” but we both know that it does not; therefore why present such an irrelevant analogy.

Regards,
Grenville

Because the bible says the world was created in 7 days. Thats spongecake.
Science provided us with facts. (as in actual measurable facts rather than "the truth" of scripture).

So the Spongecake can be discarded.

Regards.

[Philosopher]

ROFL!

I guess you've never taken a physics course?

Have you ever taken a course in philosophy of science?? Guess not...

[Philosopher]

Because the bible says the world was created in 7 days. Thats spongecake.
Science provided us with facts. (as in actual measurable facts rather than "the truth" of scripture).

So the Spongecake can be discarded.

Regards.

I agree. I find it shameful that the world laughs at us because 60% of Americans (Jews and Christians) believe the world is 6000 years old.

[lilah]

Have you ever taken a course in philosophy of science?? Guess not...

yes i have, A+ in the course.... actually

[Walter]

Hi Philosopher & Barney:

Originally Posted by barney
Because the bible says the world was created in 7 days. Thats spongecake.
Science provided us with facts. (as in actual measurable facts rather than "the truth" of scripture).

I agree. I find it shameful that the world laughs at us because 60% of Americans (Jews and Christians) believe the world is 6000 years old.

It seems that due to your unfamiliarity with the scriptures, you are making unfounded assertions and then refuting them. I do not believe that you are doing this intentionally; you appear to be simply out of your depth. I strongly recommend that you at least read the Bible before making irresponsible assertions about what it contains - please.

For your information, the Bible does not claim that the world is 6,000 years old, or that the world was created in 7 days.

Regards,
Grenville

[barney]

I'm familiar with them thanks. :)

Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

I've read many bibles. they all have similar genisis 2's
More to the point, I was forced by my country into learning christianity, and If a version of the bible that you have read says "And god made the world in 7 periods of time each equaleth to 1 billion years, then he rested" then sure, I've got it all wrong.

From sunday school to pulpit. The teaching is 7 days.

6000 years. This is not written, its a case of working it out.

The Bible teaches Adam was the first man, and lists his decendents in a unbroken line to David. The period of time involved assuming normal generation life span for the time, (about 20 years) works out to a couple of thousand. (Actually more if you take the Zeberdee lived to 345 years old and had wings of steel)passages literally)

Add on 2 thousand till Jesus, and two thousand till today.
Maybey it all works out at 15000, mayby 4000. What it dodsnt work out as is the Billions that the world has been here.

The prophets got it wrong. Maybey they misheard?

[Panther]

Not all Spaniels have short legs!

[Walter]

Hi Barney:

I previously strongly recommended that you read the entire Bible and Koran prior to asserting what is not contained therein and arguing with yourself. While your arguing with yourself can be quite amusing to the learned and can provide mirth, it can mislead those less informed and it is for that reason that I am responding.

You have started at Genesis chapter 2 and then drew various conclusions. Why did you not read Genesis chapter 1 which describes the concept of creation that is presented in chapter 2?

Let me digress a bit. The Koran opens with the following words:

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace,
those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

If we could commence our investigations and discussions with such an attitude, then we would certainly accomplish so much more.

The Bible starts with the following statement which has never been refuted:

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Please note that time has not yet been defined. He did not create the heavens and the earth on the first day, but He did create them in the beginning of Biblical recorded history.

In verse three, God prepared the earth for life and the first day is defined. God continues working for six days, creating life on the earth, and then rests on the seventh.

So to respond to your assertions:

1. How old is the earth? We do not know. We can only speculate and try to interpret the evidence that we can measure on the earth and in the heavens, using various assumptions that we cannot always verify.

2. How long did God take to make the earth? Again, we do not know. What we do know is that God made it in the beginning. When was the beginning? We can only speculate in the manner described in the response to question 1.

As to the rest of your assertions, please be advised that I cannot comment on stories that you learned in Sunday school or from the pulpit. You must agree that Sunday school stories are normally purposefully grossly simplified in order to teach 3 to 5 year old children, and information from a pulpit can be a subjective opinion. I urge you to read the Bible for yourself and then come and let us discuss scriptural issues more efficiently.

Regards,
Grenville

[Muezzin]

Wrong. "Time:" is as flawed a concept as "race."

It still exists, because we make it so. Would you say 'crime' does not exist, in any way shape or form, solely because it is a human construct?

It may be useful, but it doesnt mean it exists. Do you think there is such a thing as "race?" Both are concepts developed by humans, not reality.

It exists. It just has no ontological reality (i.e. it does not exist independently). Again, like 'crime'.

Apparently we have different concepts of existence.

[barney]

Hi Barney:

I previously strongly recommended that you read the entire Bible and Koran prior to asserting what is not contained therein and arguing with yourself. While your arguing with yourself can be quite amusing to the learned and can provide mirth, it can mislead those less informed and it is for that reason that I am responding.

You have started at Genesis chapter 2 and then drew various conclusions. Why did you not read Genesis chapter 1 which describes the concept of creation that is presented in chapter 2?

Let me digress a bit. The Koran opens with the following words:

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace,
those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

If we could commence our investigations and discussions with such an attitude, then we would certainly accomplish so much more.

The Bible starts with the following statement which has never been refuted:

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Please note that time has not yet been defined. He did not create the heavens and the earth on the first day, but He did create them in the beginning of Biblical recorded history.

In verse three, God prepared the earth for life and the first day is defined. God continues working for six days, creating life on the earth, and then rests on the seventh.

So to respond to your assertions:

1. How old is the earth? We do not know. We can only speculate and try to interpret the evidence that we can measure on the earth and in the heavens, using various assumptions that we cannot always verify.

2. How long did God take to make the earth? Again, we do not know. What we do know is that God made it in the beginning. When was the beginning? We can only speculate in the manner described in the response to question 1.

As to the rest of your assertions, please be advised that I cannot comment on stories that you learned in Sunday school or from the pulpit. You must agree that Sunday school stories are normally purposefully grossly simplified in order to teach 3 to 5 year old children, and information from a pulpit can be a subjective opinion. I urge you to read the Bible for yourself and then come and let us discuss scriptural issues more efficiently.

Regards,
Grenville

Hi Grenville.

Firstly I cant approach any arguement seeking Gods aid & Grace. I'm a Agnostic! Thats the entire point! So I wont accomplish anything by doing this except swinging an arguement towards a pro-religeious viewpoint regardless of facts. :)

You responded with
Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Please note that time has not yet been defined. He did not create the heavens and the earth on the first day, but He did create them in the beginning of Biblical recorded history.

Read this:

9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

So we see that the Formless earth....with no land, (???) had the land created by scooping up the sea and dumping it in one or two spots. This happened on Day 3, the day after he made the stars and the sun (:laugh: Umm the earth came from the sun!:laugh: ) Then he seperated the dark from the light from its initial state of ...of..umm...lighty-dark!

I could go on and on, but your assertation that we dont know the age of the earth is sunk by the creation on the third day of land.


At no point in the Bible's first chapter is there any indication that the beginning was not the start of the first day.

Argueing that this is what it means is jumping through rather inconvienent linguistical hoops.

The church has raged against the existance of dinosaurs and Cavemen ever since they were discovered. Why rage against it? Well because it shoots "the creation" out of the water. Nowadays, squinting carefully at the grammar of the scriptures and saying "ahh, but theres a period of time before the first day! Its Day..ummm..day NOTHING!" is, im sure you can see, just clutching at straws.

I have to admit, It filled me with wonder as a child, and as a child we accept anything.
As adults as we learn that there is no evidence for these stories, and that they are totally contradictory to facts, we must make a choice.

Either the Bible is wrong or we just arnt reading it right. Lets have another look and seperate sentances to fit a "get-out-free" clause in there.

If you had this discussion and used that approach with someone in 1815AD, they would consider you nuts. "Of course its not Day Zero! It would have said! Its day 1...look there in black and white!"


Anyway, at the end of the day, each to their own. Carefully reading it again for the fiftieth time, simply asserts that the prophets and scribes diddnt know nothing about the worlds creation, and came up with something very poetic and plausable to the pre-modern age.

Regards

[Philosopher]

The Bible is clear that Adam, the first man, lived only 6000 years ago. Adam was created on the sixth day of God's Creation Week, so the earth must be only 6000 years old too.

How old is the earth?

If we go back 500 years, we come to the time of Martin Luther (born in 1483), and Columbus, who “sailed the ocean blue in 1492.”

If we go back 1000 years, we come to the time of Leif Ericson, Christian explorer, who preached Christ to pagans. (World Book, 1983, vol.6, page 270.)

If we go back 2000 years, we come to the birth of Jesus Christ. Our calendar is dated from His birth.

If we go back 3000 years, we come to the time of David and Solomon; they ruled Israel about 1000 BC.

If we go back 4000 years, we come to the time of Abraham (2000 BC), ancestor of Arabs and Jews.

If we go back 5000 years, we come to the time of Enoch, who “walked with God 300 years … and God took him [into Heaven].”

If we go back 6000 years, we come to the time of Creation, and Adam and Eve (4004 BC). Luke, evangelist and historian, records Adam as the first man (Luke 3:38).

The earth is about 6000 years old. Let God's people rejoice in Him who made them! (Psalm 149:2)

We would add that although many people don't accept this timeline of history, they have difficulty deciding exactly when they would start to disagree with it.

• Was Jesus Christ real? The Bible says he was, and no serious historian doubts it.
• Was King David real? The Bible says he was. Again, there is no reason to doubt it.
• Was Abraham real? The Bible says he was. There seems no reason to doubt this either.
• Was Enoch real? The Bible says he was. There is no reason to think the Bible has suddenly lapsed into fiction when the other people were genuine historical figures.
• Was Adam real? Well, Enoch was a son of Cain, who was a son of Adam. So if Enoch was real there is no reason to think that his father Cain wasn't, or that his grandfather Adam wasn't. They were only two generations away.

And Adam was the first man, created in the first week of the earth's existence.

He lived about 6000 years ago.



Note: This rubbish I just posted was written by a Christian fundamentalist based on his interpretation of the Bible.

For more reading (Warning: Be prepared to kill brain cells :D), please visit:

http://www.conservapedia.com/How_old...o_the_bible%3F
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...w-old-is-earth
http://home1.gte.net/bridavis/timeline.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/creation...ts/a/bible.htm
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

[islamirama]

Man some people just like to argue for no reason but the sake of arguments. We already have the answers to the quetsions posed.

Here's the Christian view on this:

Hi Barney:

I previously strongly recommended that you read the entire Bible and Koran prior to asserting what is not contained therein and arguing with yourself. While your arguing with yourself can be quite amusing to the learned and can provide mirth, it can mislead those less informed and it is for that reason that I am responding.

You have started at Genesis chapter 2 and then drew various conclusions. Why did you not read Genesis chapter 1 which describes the concept of creation that is presented in chapter 2?

Let me digress a bit. The Koran opens with the following words:

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace,
those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

If we could commence our investigations and discussions with such an attitude, then we would certainly accomplish so much more.

The Bible starts with the following statement which has never been refuted:

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Please note that time has not yet been defined. He did not create the heavens and the earth on the first day, but He did create them in the beginning of Biblical recorded history.

In verse three, God prepared the earth for life and the first day is defined. God continues working for six days, creating life on the earth, and then rests on the seventh.

So to respond to your assertions:

1. How old is the earth?
We do not know. We can only speculate and try to interpret the evidence that we can measure on the earth and in the heavens, using various assumptions that we cannot always verify.

2. How long did God take to make the earth?
Again, we do not know. What we do know is that God made it in the beginning.

When was the beginning? We can only speculate in the manner described in the response to question 1.

As to the rest of your assertions, please be advised that I cannot comment on stories that you learned in Sunday school or from the pulpit. You must agree that Sunday school stories are normally purposefully grossly simplified in order to teach 3 to 5 year old children, and information from a pulpit can be a subjective opinion. I urge you to read the Bible for yourself and then come and let us discuss scriptural issues more efficiently.

Regards,
Grenville

Here's the Mulims view on this:

My thought has always been how can God be restricted by our concept of time?

I agree. How often do we say a dog is this many years old (measuring by OUR time) rather then say the dog is this many years old (measuring by dog years)?

A day is the length of time that it takes a planet to rotate on its axis (360°). A day on Earth takes almost 24 hours.

The planet with the longest day is Venus; a day on Venus takes 243 Earth days. (A day on Venus is longer than its year; a year on Venus takes only 224.7 Earth days).

The planet with the shortest day is Jupiter; a day on Jupiter only takes 9.8 Earth hours! When you observe Jupiter from Earth, you can see some of its features change.

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/sub...onomy/planets/

So how does someone from jupitar or venus measure how long the earth was created for? how about someone from space? Why do they feel the need to say earth years, when they say day as we say day but they day is not the same as ours.

Hi.

My Mum and lots of other Christians answer the question.
"Umm the world developed over millions of years...so whats with the 7 days thingy", with the response, " Ahh, but a day here is like a million or something in heaven....and God knows best"

Anyone know when this phenomenon took off? i mean If God told Abraham or whatever prophet he was talking to at the time, the world was made in 7 days...why diddnt he just say, the world was made in 7000000000 of your earth years. Totally less confusing. i'm sure if the ancients hadnt a number for 70000000000 then God could have said " Each day that the world was made in was equal to a sand bucket and each grain was a year, after half a bucket I made Birds and after a cupful of sand I seperated light from dark, which is quite a trick , cos what were they before eh? lighty-dark? Anyway, then after the bucket was nearly full I created man...and It was good"

But he diddnt. He said 7 Days. Islam says he diddnt have to rest and it was 5 (?) days and the jews had misheard this or deliberatly changed it.

So when did the Church /Clergy /immams start saying "A day is a billion squillion years". Was it at the time when carbon dating proved that Birds came 200 million years after "Beasts of the land".

Cos if so then it just so smacks of the prophets getting racked off with thousands of people queing up and asking questions like .
"Is My blue your blue? "
"I just gotta know! how long did this place take to be built? Ask him!"
"If I eat my own leg, do i still weight the same?"
"Whats with Spanials! Why are their legs so short?"

I don't know where you got the idea of 7days for christians and jews and 5 days for Muslims. The earth was created in 6days according to all 3 faiths, with difference being that the people of the book says God rested on 7th day while Islam says God is Al-Mighty and doens't get tired nor needs rest.

And we don't need to say 1 day = xxx now and change our knowledge and belief becuase of what science has revealed. Islam is the truth where as science is nothing more than error and trials. Science is a guessing game where you make a guess (hypotesis) and then you prove your guess to be right or wrong and then that is a fact for you. But this fact is not absolute fact becuase science advances in time as does our knowledge and then we find out what we thought to be the fact and true is false now according to our new knowledge and discoveries.

A recent example is alcohol. At first doctors said wine is ok in small doses for pregnant women, just last week a new news article came out that said that the previous facts are false and that it's not ok and pregnant women shouldn't drink one bit.

Anyways, the point being that science is not absolute and what it true today may not be true tomorrow. What rock you examined today with our current methods may not be as old as it is by the advance science of tomorrow.

Anyways, here's some interesting readings for you.

Is a day with Allaah one thousand years or fifty thousand years?

haykh Muhammad al-Ameen al-Shanqeeti said in his book Daf’ Ayhaam al-Idtiraab ‘an Aayaat al-Kitaab (p. 158):

“The aayah (interpretation of the meaning) ‘…And, verily, a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you reckon’ [al-Hajj 22:47] indicates that the length of a day with Allaah is a thousand years. The same is indicated by the aayah (interpretation of the meaning) ‘He arranges (every) affair from the heavens to the earth, then it (the affair) will go up to Him, in one Day, the space whereof is a thousand years of your reckoning.’ [al-Sajdah 32:5]. Another aayah indicates something different (interpretation of the meaning): ‘The angels and the Rooh [Jibreel] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years’ [al-Ma’aarij 70:4].

There are two ways in which these aayaat may be reconciled:

The first was reported by Ibn Abi Haatim via Sammaak from ‘Ikrimah from Ibn ‘Abbaas: the day of a thousand years mentioned in Soorat al-Hajj is one of the six days in which Allaah created the heavens and the earth; the day of a thousand years mentioned in Soorat al-Sajdah is the length of time it takes for a matter to go up to Allaah; and the day of fifty thousand years is the Day of Resurrection.

The second (way of reconciling the aayaat) is that what is meant by all of them is the Day of Resurrection, and the difference in the time span depends on whether a person is a believer or a kaafir. This is indicated by the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): ‘Truly that Day will be a Hard Day, far from easy for the disbelievers.” [al-Muddaththir 74:9-10]. These two suggestions were mentioned by the author of al-Itqaan. And Allaah knows best.”

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

Like woodrow mentioned, the time concept in the west is different then the east. The west its 24hrs no matter what. But also its a fact that days are longer in the summer and shorter in the winter (measured by day light of course). Even in the old days in the west, time was measured as it is in the east today. Summers are longer than winters. When the sun goes doesn, its night time and people than go to sleep.

So a day with Allah based on above readings is a 1000yrs. And to contradict you, Allah does tell us in the Quran how long that day is in human years

*{...verily a day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.}* (Al-Hajj 22:47)

And the 50,000yrs years will be the day of Resurrection. It will be a day streched out to the max and would equal to 50,000 years for us. Think of it as one loooong hot summer day.

Anyways, Here's some Islamic view on the following...


Were the heavens and the earth created in six days or eight?

Creation of the earth and universe



(1) The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran

A) The Quran on Human Embryonic Development
B) The Quran on Mountains
C) The Quran on the Origin of the Universe
D) The Quran on the Cerebrum
E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers
F) The Quran on Deeps Seas and Internal Waves
G) The Quran on Clouds
H) Scientists’ Comments on the Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran (with RealPlayer Video)

As for the non-religion based people, they really don't know the facts. Their facts are based on scientific reasoning which itself is a tool used by man to find the facts by trial and error. How often have we seen something as facts but as science progress that those "facts" are then changed to new facts with new evidence. There is no absolute answer with science, its only what our limited capacity can come up with as an answer to anything till someone smarter comes along and re-answers the same question.

Earth may have been created loooooong before humans were created. We are not the center of the universe, God created other creatures as well and spread them thru out the universe. We are not the only intelligent beings either, it's foolish to think otherwise.

[barney]

[B]Note: This rubbish I just posted was written by a Christian fundamentalist based on his interpretation of the Bible.

For more reading (Warning: Be prepared to kill brain cells :D), please visit:

http://www.conservapedia.com/How_old...o_the_bible%3F
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...w-old-is-earth
http://home1.gte.net/bridavis/timeline.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/creation...ts/a/bible.htm
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

Owch! My head! Thanks for the link. :D

I love the bit where he says there are 63 sources in his study that state the world is <10000 years old, but only a few that state its older.
Mmmmmm...the 63 sources, those would be the christian ones eh? :laugh:

[Walter]

Hi Barney:

Have you read the verses that you quoted? Do they not show that your assertion that God made land on the third day is erroneous? Please read the verse again.

Genesis 1:9 - Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.

Please note that it does not say that God created the land at this time, it says “and let the dry land appear”. You must agree that this means that the land was created before, but it was under the water. What water? The water described in Geneses 1:1

Genesis 1:1 - And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

And when was the earth that was under the water created?

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

When was this beginning? There is insufficient evidence in the Biblical account to say conclusively.

You then asserted:

At no point in the Bible's first chapter is there any indication that the beginning was not the start of the first day.
Argueing that this is what it means is jumping through rather inconvienent linguistical hoops. .

You claim to be from England. Well if English is your first language, and if you cannot see what is clearly written in the Queen’s English, then I cannot help you. Let us therefore agree to disagree and move on. Have a great weekend.

Regards,
Grenville

[Philosopher]

Owch! My head! Thanks for the link. :D

I love the bit where he says there are 63 sources in his study that state the world is <10000 years old, but only a few that state its older.
Mmmmmm...the 63 sources, those would be the christian ones eh? :laugh:

LOL, it comes mostly from the Bible :rollseyes Somebody needs to educate God.

[barney]

Let us therefore agree to disagree and move on. Have a great weekend.

Regards,
Grenville

Agreed! And have a great one yourself. :)

[Trumble]

It depends on how you define existence. If you define existence based on your senses, then there really is no way you can prove whether light, time, magnetism, or you exist. For example, lets say you are blind, deaf, and you do not have the ability to feel through your senses. All of your senses you have that help you identify things are turned off. Would I exit? I may be standing right in front of you ...according to your philosophy, I wouldn't exist because you don't have your senses to detect me. Therefore if you define time not so much as a measurement, but a progression of events, you can 'have time pass you buy' and not even know it. So just because you can't perceive time, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You just have to discover it.
So turn your senses back on and get enlightened.

Senses have nothing to do with it. If you accept, for sake of argument, no more than the cogito as a starting position you could (eventually) postulate everything from God to general relativity; the fact you would certainly be hard pushed to test either experimentally doesn't matter in the slightest. It is not important whether I know where you are standing, or even whether you exist; the important thing is that I know there is an 'I', I am able to conceive there may be a 'you', that you may be standing in front of me, but that you may have the capacity to be doing something other than that. ALL of that, though, is a human construct; it can't possibly be anything else.

But what if you discard your assumption; that there are senses to be turned back on, that there is a "you" (or indeed an "I") to do the perceiving, or (at the very least) that at some time there has been, or will be. Where then is 'time' and 'momentum'?