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MTAFFI
06-12-2007, 01:07 AM
Father found guilty in honor killing By PAISLEY DODDS, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 9 minutes ago



LONDON - A father who ordered his daughter brutally slain for falling in love with the wrong man in a so-called "honor killing" was found guilty of murder on Monday.

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Banaz Mahmod, 20, was strangled with a boot lace, stuffed into a suitcase and buried in a back garden.

Her death is the latest in an increasing trend of such killings in Britain, home to some 1.8 million Muslims. More than 100 homicides are under investigation as potential "honor killings."

Mahmod Mahmod, 52, and his brother Ari Mahmod, 51, planned the killing during a family meeting, prosecutors told the court. Two others have pleaded guilty in the case. Two more suspects have fled the country. Sentencing is expected later this month.

The men accused the young woman of shaming her family by ending an abusive arranged marriage, becoming too Westernized and falling in love with a man who didn't come from their Iraqi village. The Kurdish family came to Britain in 1998 when Banaz Mahmod was 11.

"She was my present, my future, my hope," said Rahmat Suleimani, 29, Banaz Mahmod's boyfriend.

During the three-month trial, prosecutors said Mahmod's father beat his daughter for using hairspray and adopting other Western ways. Her uncle once told her she would have been "turned to ashes" if she were his daughter and had shamed the family by becoming involved with the Iranian Kurd, her sister 22-year-old Bekhal Mahmod testified.

Banaz Mahmod ran away from home when she was a teenager but returned when her father sent her an audio tape in which he warned he would kill her sisters, her mother and himself if she did not come home, her sister said.

She was later hospitalized after her brother attacked her, the sister told the court. The brother said he had been paid by their father to finish her off but in the end was unable to do it, said the sister, who testified in a full black burqa. She said she still feared for her own life.

The years of Banaz Mahmod's abuse were compounded by police officers who repeatedly dismissed her cries for help.

She first went to police in December 2005, saying she suspected her uncle was trying to kill her and her boyfriend. She sent police a letter naming the men who she thought would later kill her.

On New Year's Eve, she was lured by her father to her grandmother's home, where she suspected he planned to attack her after he forced her to gulp down brandy and approached her while wearing gloves. She escaped by breaking a window and was treated at a hospital.

Police dismissed her suspicions, and one officer, who is under investigation, considered charging her with damages for breaking her grandmother's window.

Laying in her hospital bed after the escape, Mahmod recorded a dramatic video message saying she was "really scared."

The videotape, taken by her boyfriend at the hospital, was shown to the jury during the trial.

After she was released from the hospital, she returned home and tried to convince her family she had stopped seeing her boyfriend.

But friends told the family they spotted the couple together on Jan. 22, 2006.

Soon after, a group of men allegedly approached her boyfriend and tried to lure him into a car but he refused. It was that event that prompted Banaz Mahmod to go to police again. This time officers tried to persuade her to stay in a safe house. She refused, believing that her mother would protect her.

But her mother and father left her alone in the house the next day. Her boyfriend alerted police after time passed in which she failed to send him text messages.

Her body wasn't discovered until three months later after police tracked phone records.

Britain has seen more than 25 women killed by their Muslim relatives in the past decade for offenses they believed brought shame on the family. More than 100 other homicides are under investigation as potential honor killings.

Some Muslim communities in Britain practice Sharia, or strict Islamic law.

"We're seeing an increase around the world, due in part to the rise in Islamic fundamentalism," said Diana Nammi with the London-based Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organization.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070611/..._honor_killing

I can understand this happening in a Sharia ruled country, because the people and the women should expect this type of reaction, but this happening in a secular society that does not condone or support this sort of behavior is exactly why Muslims in the UK are getting the reputation they have, if you wish to live in our societies you should forget about such acts of violence.
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Muezzin
06-12-2007, 09:50 AM
Honor killing isn't a part of Islamic law. Besides, any executions are performed by the state, not private individuals as that is tantamount to vigilantism.

This killing was murder, plain and simple.
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Malaikah
06-12-2007, 09:55 AM
:sl:

That is truly a sad story. May this evil practise be abolished!

Some Muslim communities in Britain practice Sharia, or strict Islamic law.

"We're seeing an increase around the world, due in part to the rise in Islamic fundamentalism," said Diana Nammi with the London-based Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organization.
What an idiot... just reading this blatant lie makes me wonder if the rest of the article is factual...

Any executions are performed by the state, not private individuals as that is tantamount to vigilantism.
And that is only if the person is actually guilty of the crime and has been exposed by the appropriate witnesses and all that stuff! I doubt any of the women killed in honour killings would ahve been executed under Islamic law (or even the men for that matter, assuming they are ever the targets of such killings).
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Pygoscelis
06-12-2007, 09:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Honor killing isn't a part of Islamic law. Any executions are performed by the state, not private individuals as that is tantamount to vigilantism.

This killing was murder, plain and simple.
This is horrid. This is the sort of thing that makes me anti-religious.

And as an aside, are you telling me you would support this had the state killed this woman for this reason instead of her father?
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Muezzin
06-12-2007, 09:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This is horrid. This is the sort of thing that makes me anti-religious.

And as an aside, are you telling me you would support this had the state killed this woman for this reason instead of her father?
I'm just telling you how it would work under a different system. Whether or not you agree with that system is your prerogative. I don't know the ins and outs of Sharia Law, but I know enough that so-called honour killings are prohibited.

Under this system, UK law, such actions are completely illegal. This guy should be punished. There's no honour in killing your own flesh and blood.
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Malaikah
06-12-2007, 10:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This is horrid. This is the sort of thing that makes me anti-religious.

And as an aside, are you telling me you would support this had the state killed this woman for this reason instead of her father?
Under Islamic law, adultery (i.e. a married person has a sexual relationship, all the way, with a person who is not his or her spouse) is punishable by death, on the condition that the act, and I mean the whole act of penetration, is witnessed by four righteous people.

Any less evidence than this and the person who makes the claim against the man/woman will be punished themselves for accusing someone of adultery without the witnesses (even if they are telling the truth).
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duskiness
06-12-2007, 10:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This is horrid. This is the sort of thing that makes me anti-religious.
are you sure it is religion? i would rather say that this is very old, world-wide concept that male "honor" depends on behaviour of his female relatives and wife.
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skhalid
06-12-2007, 11:00 AM
I can't believe people still do this its sick and against the law of Islam........
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Umar001
06-12-2007, 11:08 AM
I cant believe that they tied it in with Islam and I cant believe how they killed her and put her in a suit case, I mean, dang, how could anyone do that.

edit:

On New Year's Eve, she was lured by her father to her grandmother's home, where she suspected he planned to attack her after he forced her to gulp down brandy and approached her while wearing gloves.

Yes because Muslims always have abit of brandy in the house.
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Medina83
06-12-2007, 11:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Under Islamic law, adultery (i.e. a married person has a sexual relationship, all the way, with a person who is not his or her spouse) is punishable by death, on the condition that the act, and I mean the whole act of penetration, is witnessed by four righteous people.

Any less evidence than this and the person who makes the claim against the man/woman will be punished themselves for accusing someone of adultery without the witnesses (even if they are telling the truth).
This should be added to in that only the person who is married is punished with death. If either party is unmarried..or if a couple is unmarried, then its 100 lashes...again though the four righteous witnesses are required.
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Umar001
06-12-2007, 11:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Britain has seen more than 25 women killed by their Muslim relatives in the past decade for offenses they believed brought shame on the family. More than 100 other homicides are under investigation as potential honor killings.


I can understand this happening in a Sharia ruled country, because the people and the women should expect this type of reaction, but this happening in a secular society that does not condone or support this sort of behavior is exactly why Muslims in the UK are getting the reputation they have, if you wish to live in our societies you should forget about such acts of violence.
So out of the how many million Muslims there is some who culturally do this, look at the figures, more than 25, OVER THE PAST DECADE, and there are more being looked at. Now, although one is bad enough, and I do agree it is, someone then using these figures to say 'this sort of behavior is exactly why Muslims in the UK are getting the reputation they have' that's just stupid, am sorry but it is, did even half of the over One Million Muslims commit such acts? Even a quater? Wanna give people reputation according to acts which a minority in the group might do which is not even part of the group's system, ok, if someone said 'seriously, Christians need to stop being so homosexual, I mean priests and so forth, this is an abomination, this is why you christians will get the homosexual reputation!'

It wouldn't be fair.
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skhalid
06-12-2007, 11:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Medina83
This should be added to in that only the person who is married is punished with death. If either party is unmarried..or if a couple is unmarried, then its 100 lashes...again though the four righteous witnesses are required.
the thing is that some people follow this but they should consider about the place they live at and the rules as well........and as far as I know people who do not follow this actually get the ones who commited adultery married as soon as possible and ask for forgiveness from God (Allah)
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iwuvaziaf
06-12-2007, 12:04 PM
This is sick.. so sick! so sick! i still remember of the girl whos video got leaked and when it reached her brother.. he took her back to their country and shot her! she hadnt suspected a thing...!

Truth is, evil exists everywhere in the world.. u cant mould a teaching of religion and take it in ur own hands.. there is so much that depends on every verse from the Qur'an.. this can only be dun but this this this and this applies too.. like sis Medina83 said..

It is a petty crime .. people who commit these crimes are not psychologically aware of their actions and what will be the result.. for example: the girl had a forced marriage and then it didnt work out.. why force her to start with? they ruled out islamic recommendations from their life then... anything they done after is the consequences of it... one wrong step.. leads to many wrongs unless repented for.. It is easy to have children but raising them is a complete different issue. Its so funny, these people must have been so occupied with migrating to UK and setting claims right that the girl probably did not get the attention that was required. She was exposed to a whole different life without probably being prepared for it (we'll never know!) Its like if i take my child to a safari park and leave him/her open to the animals.. If i dont teach him/her of what to look out, my child would be playing with the tigers.. (or eaten!)

Its sad but this is a situation which they lost control of and this was the only way they saw through it... so wrong!

This is just another article for the readers but the story behind it holds the real reason to why ppl behave in such a way..

Ya Allah! Help us, Guide us and keep us on the righteous path!

Wsalamaleykum
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Muezzin
06-12-2007, 12:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by duskiness
are you sure it is religion? i would rather say that this is very old, world-wide concept that male "honor" depends on behaviour of his female relatives and wife.
Could be.

Either way, I'm just appalled this sort of thing still happens. How can fathers or brothers kill their daughters or sisters? For 'honour'? For 'shame'? That's bull!
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Ahmed_Asad
06-12-2007, 12:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This is horrid. This is the sort of thing that makes me anti-religious.

And as an aside, are you telling me you would support this had the state killed this woman for this reason instead of her father?

this is the sort of thing that makes you anti religious? what has this murder got to do with religion? the father kill his own daughter plain and simple , religion did not take part in this at all, just because he was a muslim it does not mean his faith played a role in the murder? you need to stop displaying this attitude that religion has to be accountable , and if your anti religious what on earth are you doing on this islamic board , everything here is just about religion it self..............
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Keltoi
06-12-2007, 12:54 PM
Connecting honor killings to Islam is like connecting the woman who drowned her babies in a bathtub because they were demonic as a Christian practice.
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England
06-12-2007, 01:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Under Islamic law, adultery (i.e. a married person has a sexual relationship, all the way, with a person who is not his or her spouse) is punishable by death, on the condition that the act, and I mean the whole act of penetration, is witnessed by four righteous people.

Any less evidence than this and the person who makes the claim against the man/woman will be punished themselves for accusing someone of adultery without the witnesses (even if they are telling the truth).
Does Islamic law apply to non-muslims too? I couldn't live under that. A risk of being put to death for sleeping with a girl that I'm not married to...:rollseyes
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Bittersteel
06-12-2007, 01:45 PM
Does Islamic law apply to non-muslims too?
No.well in theory no.But some laws may ,like security laws,etc.and in NM countries we are supposed to live by the NM's laws.
whether is it an Islamic practice or not I will give you a hint:Its practiced all over South Asia(in the villages and rural areas mostly) by Hindus,Sikhs and Muslims alike.
I can understand this happening in a Sharia ruled country, because the people and the women should expect this type of reaction,
its cultural,not religious.Instead of saying a Sharia ruled country you can say a culturally sensitive country.haven't you heard of stories about Non-Muslim men who killed their wives after they found out they were being cheated?Its similar if not same to honour killings.Its true this is disturbing for the British,and you have my sympathy.you people should have a control over immigration.
I am planning to show some honour killings done by Non-Muslims.I am tired of this type of Islam bashing.I know the British are frustrated over such uncivilized actions done in their own country,but they should think first before they say anything.I am not saying you shouldn't criticize these people.you should.just don't connect this to the religion because it isn't.
and you will also find some honour killings are done if the woman gets raped;nothing religious,totally cultural.
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islamirama
06-12-2007, 01:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Some Muslim communities in Britain practice Sharia, or strict Islamic law.

"We're seeing an increase around the world, due in part to the rise in Islamic fundamentalism," said Diana Nammi with the London-based Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organization.
Due to part in rise of islamic fundamentalism? what load of crap!

All this is nothing but cultural ignorance. This pratice is common in japan, china and even india where hindus have known to burn their daughters alive for falling in love with a muslim, christian, sikh or a hindu of lower cast. This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with culture.

Just last weak in Tecas a 23yr old mother hanged her self and her 4 kids aged 5yrs to 8months. Did we hear anyone say it's a christian woman who did it cuase of religion? These media people, human rights group or islamicphobic speakers need to get a fricken life.
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islamirama
06-12-2007, 01:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
Does Islamic law apply to non-muslims too? I couldn't live under that. A risk of being put to death for sleeping with a girl that I'm not married to...:rollseyes
Muslims live under non-muslim law and can't even have it's own law to govern personal matters. yet non-Muslims living in Muslim lands today (not even shariah based rule) and yet they have been given the freedom to have their own laws for personal lives like weddings, burials, and eveything else other than the common country laws. So much as that even saudi where religious police tells muslim women to cover up doesn't say much to non-muslims who walk in the street without covering up.
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Ahmed_Asad
06-12-2007, 01:52 PM
well said!
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- Qatada -
06-12-2007, 02:02 PM
Aa'ishah reported that a girl came to her and said, "My father married me to his brother's son in order to raise his social standing, and I did not want this marriage [I was forced into it]." ?Aa'ishah said, "Sit here until the Prophet
(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) comes.

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came and she told him about the girl. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sent for her father, then he gave the girl the choice of what to do. She said, "O Messenger of Allaah, I have accepted what my father did, but I wanted to prove something to other women." (Reported by al-Nisaa'i, 3217).


http://muslim-responses.com/Forced_...rced_Marriages_


The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "Shall I not guide you to the most excellent sadaqah (charity)? It is to provide for your daughter when she is sent back to you and has no one but you to provide for her."

[Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah transmitted it.]

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England
06-12-2007, 02:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Muslims live under non-muslim law and can't even have it's own law to govern personal matters. yet non-Muslims living in Muslim lands today (not even shariah based rule) and yet they have been given the freedom to have their own laws for personal lives like weddings, burials, and eveything else other than the common country laws. So much as that even saudi where religious police tells muslim women to cover up doesn't say much to non-muslims who walk in the street without covering up.
Oh poor you but we're speaking of executions, being put to death for virtually nothing at all. This country is the same when it comes to "special treatment." You've heard of political correctness in order not to offend muslims haven't you?
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MTAFFI
06-12-2007, 02:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
So out of the how many million Muslims there is some who culturally do this, look at the figures, more than 25, OVER THE PAST DECADE, and there are more being looked at. Now, although one is bad enough, and I do agree it is, someone then using these figures to say 'this sort of behavior is exactly why Muslims in the UK are getting the reputation they have' that's just stupid, am sorry but it is, did even half of the over One Million Muslims commit such acts? Even a quater? Wanna give people reputation according to acts which a minority in the group might do which is not even part of the group's system, ok, if someone said 'seriously, Christians need to stop being so homosexual, I mean priests and so forth, this is an abomination, this is why you christians will get the homosexual reputation!'

It wouldn't be fair.

I suppose I should clarify this a bit, I apologize for the miscommunication, I was pretty disgusted when I read it. When I say "This is why Muslims are getting the reputation in England", I was meaning that when a Muslim does this and it gets the media coverage that it is obviously going to have an effect on non-muslims who are not exactly used to the term "honor killing", whether it is Islamic or not it is an act that apparently gets carried out in the mid east. (Although I have to admit, out of pure ignorance and the way this article is reported, I thought this was something that could be sanctioned by Muslims. As stated above I guess it can be carried out but only through the proper channels and not actually by family members) So basically I am not saying that this is an islamic act or one that should be portrayed by the media as islamic, however it is put in the public eye in this manner, and whether or not it is the minority, people will see this and it will hurt the Muslim community as a whole, just like you mentioned about the preists.
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Bittersteel
06-12-2007, 02:12 PM
http://islamtoday.net/english/show_d...&main_cat_id=6
there are other laws for pre-marital sex,adultery(four witnesses required,etc).
Due to part in rise of islamic fundamentalism? what load of crap!
you can hardly blame them.if the father used religious rhetoric to justify his actions it will appear as "Islamic fundamentalism".and such killings have happened a lot.
Muslims should know and accept somethings before they enter a Non-Muslim nation.Like they could be cheated and dumped by their spouses or their children could become liberalized and stray away from the path of religion.and honour killings have occurred all over Europe.Mostly by Muslims,who I am sure have emigrated from poor rural areas in underdeveloped Muslim nations.

So basically I am not saying that this is an islamic act or one that should be portrayed by the media as islamic, however it is put in the public eye in this manner,
true.whether or not an Islamic act it still happens and Muslim men and women are both victims of it.Honour killings should be stopped and if religious leaders in Muslim countries start voicing a lot against this it will help a lot.
So much as that even saudi where religious police tells muslim women to cover up doesn't say much to non-muslims who walk in the street without covering up.
doesn't the sharia apply to Muslims only?But I wouldn't mind if the NMs are told to dress conservatively,though.I thought those police did ,as according to a female USAF officer who was based in KSA.
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- Qatada -
06-12-2007, 02:12 PM
MTAFFI, if we speak out against it - take now for example - is the media going to show it? No they're not. Infact, if it's something from the Middle East or India, that doesn't always mean it's something Islamic. The same way everything from the west isn't always Christian.


It's really ironic that the article starts off with the murder, then it says that its 'home to 1.8million muslims' - why do they need to say that at all in the article? Would it make a difference? Or maybe they're just doing it to really cause hatred against Islaam? It did a good job of making you and even other non muslims feel that way.


Don't you know that this is a practise of the pre-islamic period? I.e. How about the millions of female infants which are killed in India, how come that isn't shown on the news?


It's totally biased and pure propaganda, what the guy did is bad. Infact, he went totally against Islamic teachings by taking the law into his own hands, he even forced her to drink brandy right? Who said we're allowed to have alcohol in Islaam? It's totally prohibited. So is this guy even a practising Muslim if he's going against it's teachings?

If he did something like that, and he's not practising Islaam well - then how are we to say that this act which he's done is Islamic at all?
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islamirama
06-12-2007, 02:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
Oh poor you but we're speaking of executions, being put to death for virtually nothing at all. This country is the same when it comes to "special treatment." You've heard of political correctness in order not to offend muslims haven't you?
In case you missed it, i was talking about rights. And since you couldn't decipher from that passage let me spell it out in clear terms for you. Muslim shariah laws applie to Muslims only whether you are in Muslim land or your land adopts shariah law. This is about religious and personal matters, but if you steal or kill then the law of the land naturally applies to all who reside in it.
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Umar001
06-12-2007, 02:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I suppose I should clarify this a bit, I apologize for the miscommunication, I was pretty disgusted when I read it. When I say "This is why Muslims are getting the reputation in England", I was meaning that when a Muslim does this and it gets the media coverage that it is obviously going to have an effect on non-muslims who are not exactly used to the term "honor killing", whether it is Islamic or not it is an act that apparently gets carried out in the mid east. (Although I have to admit, out of pure ignorance and the way this article is reported, I thought this was something that could be sanctioned by Muslims. As stated above I guess it can be carried out but only through the proper channels and not actually by family members) So basically I am not saying that this is an islamic act or one that should be portrayed by the media as islamic, however it is put in the public eye in this manner, and whether or not it is the minority, people will see this and it will hurt the Muslim community as a whole, just like you mentioned about the preists.
Then I guess I do agree:statisfie . I guess the media should be more sensative in the way they potray things. A dream is but a dream.
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MTAFFI
06-12-2007, 02:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
MTAFFI, if we speak out against it - take now for example - is the media going to show it? No they're not. Infact, if it's something from the Middle East or India, that doesn't always mean it's something Islamic. The same way everything from the west isn't always Christian.


It's really ironic that the article starts off with the murder, then it says that its 'home to 1.8million muslims' - why do they need to say that at all in the article? Would it make a difference? Or maybe they're just doing it to really cause hatred against Islaam? It did a good job of making you and even other non muslims feel that way.


Don't you know that this is a practise of the pre-islamic period? I.e. How about the millions of female infants which are killed in India, how come that isn't shown on the news?


It's totally biased and pure propaganda, what the guy did is bad. Infact, he went totally against Islamic teachings by taking the law into his own hands, he even forced her to drink brandy right? Who said we're allowed to have alcohol in Islaam? It's totally prohibited. So is this guy even a practising Muslim if he's going against it's teachings?

If he did something like that, and he's not practising Islaam well - then how are we to say that this act which he's done is Islamic at all?
I just typed a post above to clarify what I was going for with the post. I agree with most of what you are saying here. And I think someone said it the best above, this is a cultural phenomena, that because of the location of the more frequent occurances and the obvious background and religion of the person who commited the atrocity, the media is able to relate this to muslims and put them in a bad light. In any case, to the guy who knows nothing about this sort of act of violence or the Quran or Islam, it would appear as though this is what Muslims do, whether that be wrong or not, it is still going to damage the image of Muslims in Britain. Sad:(
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Zman
06-12-2007, 02:21 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

I'm totally against honor killings. But, I've seen this issue being blown-up beyond all proportions, on many sites and in the news.

So, we need to put it into perspective.

Compare how many honor killings occur on an annual basis, with murders involving extra-marital affairs, love-spats, and the huge amount of domestic violence against women (there are some cases where it's the men who are being abused).

It's like circumcision. They raise hell when Muslims do it, but, now, the U.N. is calling on the entire male polpulation of this planet to be circumcised, because they recently found out, that circumcision helps in combatting AIDS.

So, it's Just another case of double standards. Highlighting what Muslims do, but, hiding our own dirty laundry.

And if what Muslims did is beneficial, then we adopt it and congratulate ourselves for the discovery...
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- Qatada -
06-12-2007, 02:22 PM
Thankyou for understanding. I agree, the medias' done a good job of portraying it all as a 'muslim thing.' But atleast we got people like you guys who are ready to hear us out :D lol



Peace.
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Bittersteel
06-12-2007, 02:25 PM
I.e. How about the millions of female infants which are killed in India, how come that isn't shown on the news?
it was shown.Not many people were interested.
Zman circumcision is done by the Jews too .but if they raised hell just 'coz Muslim males did it,I got nothing to say.
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Muezzin
06-12-2007, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I just typed a post above to clarify what I was going for with the post. I agree with most of what you are saying here. And I think someone said it the best above, this is a cultural phenomena, that because of the location of the more frequent occurances and the obvious background and religion of the person who commited the atrocity, the media is able to relate this to muslims and put them in a bad light. In any case, to the guy who knows nothing about this sort of act of violence or the Quran or Islam, it would appear as though this is what Muslims do, whether that be wrong or not, it is still going to damage the image of Muslims in Britain. Sad:(
It is true and it is sad.

If only we knew of these sorts of things before they happened. This lady went to the police for instance, but they failed to prevent it. Surely her friends could have done something? If someone I knew told me, deadly serious, that she was in actual danger of being murdered by her family, I'd sure as heck try to do something to protect her. I don't know, her friends probably did their best, but this still happened.

Because the wider community sadly doesn't hear about these things, the extremely unfortunate truth is that all we can do is condemn it if and when it does happen, rather than prevent it.
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MTAFFI
06-12-2007, 02:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
It is true and it is sad.

If only we knew of these sorts of things before they happened. This lady went to the police for instance, but they failed to prevent it. Surely her friends could have done something? If someone I knew told me, deadly serious, that she was in actual danger of being murdered by her family, I'd sure as heck try to do something to protect her. I don't know, her friends probably did their best, but this still happened.

Because the wider community sadly doesn't hear about these things, the extremely unfortunate truth is that all we can do is condemn it if and when it does happen, rather than prevent it.
hopefully this event will get police to look at little closer at the next girl who comes to them saying that she is in fear of her life from her family
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glo
06-12-2007, 02:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Thankyou for understanding. I agree, the medias' done a good job of portraying it all as a 'muslim thing.' But atleast we got people like you guys who are ready to hear us out :D lol



Peace.
I understand all the concerns about how the media presents certain situations to the public, Fi_Sabilillah.

But I wonder what reasons the father and uncle in this story would give for their actions ... do you not think they will say it was 'their right or even obligation under Islam to act they way they did'?

What I am trying to say is, no matter how much the media blow this kind of thing out of proportion (and I don't doubt for a moment that they do!), they wouldn't associate such crimes with Islam, if not somebody somewhere had given them the impression that it was so!

All the more reason for you good guys to put the true Islamic teachings across here in LI ... unfortunately you only reach a small number of non-Muslims that way ... :(

My heart goes out to this young woman, her family and the man who loved her!
(Interestingly I have not heard her mother being mentioned at all. Where does she stand in all this, I wonder?)

Peace
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glo
06-12-2007, 02:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
hopefully this event will get police to look at little closer at the next girl who comes to them saying that she is in fear of her life from her family
Sadly, I have heard opinions which stated that the police didn't take enough action, because they 'didn't want to appear too heavy-handed with regards to the ethnic minorities'.
Arguably that's the flip-side of trying to be politically correct, and not wanting to offend anybody ...

If somebody gets arrested and turns out innocent, people complain.
If the police play it softly and somebody gets killed, people certainly complain too ...

Sadly, with the benefit of hindsight we always know better ... :(

Peace
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Muezzin
06-12-2007, 02:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I understand all the concerns about how the media presents certain situations to the public, Fi_Sabilillah.

But I wonder what reasons the father and uncle in this story would give for their actions ... do you not think they will say it was 'their right or even obligation under Islam to act they way they did'?

What I am trying to say is, no matter how much the media blow this kind of thing out of proportion (and I don't doubt for a moment that they do!), they wouldn't associate such crimes with Islam, if not somebody somewhere had given them the impression that it was so!

All the more reason for you good guys to put the true Islamic teachings across here in LI ... unfortunately you only reach a small number of non-Muslims that way ... :(
This is true.

My heart goes out to this young woman, her family and the man who loved her!
Same here. But not to those particular members of her family who wanted her dead. I hope they feel guilt. Debilitating, rotting, soul-crushing guilt.
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Bittersteel
06-12-2007, 02:53 PM
the British PM should have confronted this instead of attacking Iraq.
Instead of having interfaith dialogues Muslims should have more talks on domestic issues and criminal activities concerning Muslims in Europa.
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/...trayed_as.html
I have been into a Sikh forum lately and they said there's a Sikh-Muslim war going on over women especially.Funny,I know heh.boyfriends have been victims of honour killlings too,right?
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islamirama
06-12-2007, 03:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Sadly, I have heard opinions which stated that the police didn't take enough action, because they 'didn't want to appear too heavy-handed with regards to the ethnic minorities'.
Arguably that's the flip-side of trying to be politically correct, and not wanting to offend anybody ...

If somebody gets arrested and turns out innocent, people complain.
If the police play it softly and somebody gets killed, people certainly complain too ...
Peace
I disagree, police does as it pleases when it wants to. There is no sensitivity to minorities and their needs. As the article stated, one police officer even wanted to charge the girl for breaking her grandmother's window while jumping out. Police apparently didn't care in this case about the girl or her plight. So I blame the police as well for neglecting to do their jobs when they should rather then terrorize other people who don't deserve it. Besides, common sense goes a long way and that common sense was lacking by the officers in this girl's case.
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Malaikah
06-13-2007, 02:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
Does Islamic law apply to non-muslims too? I couldn't live under that. A risk of being put to death for sleeping with a girl that I'm not married to...:rollseyes
It applies to married people. Please don't tell me you have no problem with cheating on your wife?

format_quote Originally Posted by England
Oh poor you but we're speaking of executions, being put to death for virtually nothing at all.
I see. You think adultery, cheating on ones husband/wife, ruining his/her life as well as the life of any children involved and destroying a family is nothing.
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Pygoscelis
06-13-2007, 02:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed_Asad
this is the sort of thing that makes you anti religious? what has this murder got to do with religion?
As glo said, if you asked these men why they did what they did, do you not expect they will say they did what Allah requires of them? Read the article itself, this is plain to see. Just because their view of your religion is different than your own does not make their actions any less motivated by religion.

you need to stop displaying this attitude that religion has to be accountable ,
It has likely motivated a murder here. It doesn't have to be considered and examined? Should we likewise ignore all other systems of division and intolerance, be they racism, nationalism, etc?

and if your anti religious what on earth are you doing on this islamic board , everything here is just about religion it self..............
Well since you asked, here's why. After 9/11 and all the anti-islamic hysteria that followed it, I became curious if islam is actually what it has been potrayed to be. I wanted to learn the mindset of the muslims here, and to see for myself if they are dangerous. That's better than just accepting the TV news reports on the face of them and declaring as many westerners do that all muslims are terrorists, no?

If you're curious, I've found most muslims here to be harmless. I've actually found them to be pretty much the same as western Christians. And I've found the ideology itself to be better than christianity in some ways and worse in others.

Now, before you complain about anything I wrote above, remember, you asked.
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north_malaysian
06-13-2007, 03:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
On New Year's Eve, she was lured by her father to her grandmother's home, where she suspected he planned to attack her after he forced her to gulp down brandy and approached her while wearing gloves.
How "Islamic" when a father forced his daughter to drink something Haraam.:enough!:
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Malaikah
06-13-2007, 07:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
As glo said, if you asked these men why they did what they did, do you not expect they will say they did what Allah requires of them? Read the article itself, this is plain to see. Just because their view of your religion is different than your own does not make their actions any less motivated by religion.
Such activities existed well before Islam did, it is not fair to say that Islam is what motivated their actions, in fact it is ridiculous to suggest this because what they did is murder, a very major sin!

It was culture, nothing else.
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glo
06-13-2007, 07:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Such activities existed well before Islam did, it is not fair to say that Islam is what motivated their actions, in fact it is ridiculous to suggest this because what they did is murder, a very major sin!

It was culture, nothing else.
But the point Pygoscelis and I are making, is that some Muslims will commit such acts in the name of Islam (just as followers of other religions commit similar crimes in the name of their religion) ... thereby causing much problems for other believers, who neither condone such acts, nor consider them to be part of their religious teaching.

For the atheists/agnostics among us, such incidents may be evidence that religion is a bad thing and we would be better of without it!

Those of us who do believe in God, better pay attention. The world is watching us, and judging God by our actions! :-[

Peace
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ummzayd
06-13-2007, 09:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
But the point Pygoscelis and I are making, is that some Muslims will commit such acts in the name of Islam (just as followers of other religions commit similar crimes in the name of their religion) ... thereby causing much problems for other believers, who neither condone such acts, nor consider them to be part of their religious teaching.

For the atheists/agnostics among us, such incidents may be evidence that religion is a bad thing and we would be better of without it!

Those of us who do believe in God, better pay attention. The world is watching us, and judging God by our actions! :-[

Peace
unfortunately that makes it sound like a question of interpretation, like the killers interpret Islamic law differently.
It is not interpretation. It is crystal clear, plain as the nose on your face, that these murders (ie honour killings) have NO BASIS IN ISLAM.
I was going to say, it is ignorance - they are ignorant of the limits God has placed over the taking of human life.
However, on reflection I believe that these people simply don't care about God's laws, the laws of their culture and their tribal traditions have more importance for them.

peace
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nocturne
06-13-2007, 10:28 AM
Yet another despicable article.

Whats with people trying to tie everything to do Islamic extremists/fudamentalism??

Bombs goes off anywhere => must be an muslim terrorist
Girl gets killed by her dad for falling love => those islam laws are so against women
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Pygoscelis
06-13-2007, 11:57 AM
So if these people who do such things were to straight out tell you that they do them because their God wants them to, you'd just refuse to believe them?

You can say they've got it wrong, and Islam teaches no such thing, but they'd obviously disagree, and from an outsider's point of view it doesn't matter which of you is "right". All that matters is that people are killing other people due to religion.
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islamirama
06-13-2007, 01:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
So if these people who do such things were to straight out tell you that they do them because their God wants them to, you'd just refuse to believe them?

You can say they've got it wrong, and Islam teaches no such thing, but they'd obviously disagree, and from an outsider's point of view it doesn't matter which of you is "right". All that matters is that people are killing other people due to religion.
So by token of your logic, christianity and jewdism are terrorists religions. Let's not forget oklahoma bombing and the unabomber and lets nto for get 500 bomb plots happen in europe out of which about 50 by muslims, oh and lets not forget hitler was half jew and half christian. What about the KKK? Yep, lot of terrorists right there following their religion to the max i say! :thumbs_up
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Pygoscelis
06-13-2007, 01:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
So by token of your logic, christianity and jewdism are terrorists religions. Let's not forget oklahoma bombing and the unabomber and lets nto for get 500 bomb plots happen in europe out of which about 50 by muslims, oh and lets not forget hitler was half jew and half christian. What about the KKK? Yep, lot of terrorists right there following their religion to the max i say! :thumbs_up
Spend just an hour or so flipping through the bible and you'll notice just how right you are. The bible justifies all sorts of nasty things explicitly, including murder. There are lots of Christians who fail to follow the bible at its word, and they suffer witches to live for example (bible says not to), but if one comes along who DOES follow the book literally, can we really say he's not movitated by the religion?
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islamirama
06-13-2007, 02:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Spend just an hour or so flipping through the bible and you'll notice just how right you are. The bible justifies all sorts of nasty things explicitly, including murder. There are lots of Christians who fail to follow the bible at its word, and they suffer witches to live for example (bible says not to), but if one comes along who DOES follow the book literally, can we really say he's not movitated by the religion?
so what do you think of the talmund?

Talmund is the zionist book where as the Torah is the Jewish book.
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Muezzin
06-13-2007, 02:51 PM
Doesn't that sort of thing belong in Comparative Religion?

Just nipping this in the bud, because I can sense this easily becoming a fight.
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Thanaa
06-13-2007, 02:59 PM
I feel so sorry for that poor girl!
There was another girl-a 16 y/o-who was killed a few years ago-had she lived, she'd be the same age as me...
:cry:
Her Dad killed her for the "crime" of dating a Christain Boy.
Its just so wrong that there are still people in the world who can do such things to their own flesh and blood!
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August
06-13-2007, 05:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thanaa
Her Dad killed her for the "crime" of dating a Christain Boy.
Its just so wrong that there are still people in the world who can do such things to their own flesh and blood!
Not that murder is justified by Islamic law in this case, but didn't she committ two serious violations of Islamic law? First by dating and second by dating a non-Muslim.
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islamirama
06-13-2007, 05:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
Not that murder is justified by Islamic law in this case, but didn't she committ two serious violations of Islamic law? First by dating and second by dating a non-Muslim.

Dating is forbidden whether its muslim or non-muslim as a safeguard to keep ourselves modest and pure for that special one, but it doesn't mean that the punishment is death for it. It is a sin and immoral and the family must do what they can to keep their kids on the right path but do it within the boundaries of Islam, not transgress them like in this case. Then again the father made her drink alcohol to get her drunk first, which only goes to show how much of islam practicing the family really is.
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