"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[Redeemed]

in Islam, everything is based on knowledge, the more knowledge you have , the more you trust in God, the more pious you are, and that's why the first word revealed is "Ekara" which means "READ", so knowledge is keept in high esteem.

so when you have something that is not well defined, a complex thing, then a number of definitions come from that, same as people can't really define the word "intelligence", cuz it's a complex thing.

A former Muslim told me the more knowledge you have the less your security you have. He said that even the prophet Muhammad wasn't sure of his salvation. If that is the case, where do you think you stand? Do you know that Allah will save you from you sin on the last day? No, I didn’t think so either. I know I am covered, and I don't have to worry about facing a Christless eternity. I do not commit shirk as you may suppose, because I believe in the true God and Creator of the worlds. The God I know first loved me, and it is His goodness that leads me to repentance. You must love your God in order to be loved back (maybe). We have a sure foundation and there is no devil in hell that can shake it. We have something to offer that no other religion has, and it makes Satan mad. We have the light. According to Islam Allah sent messengers to deliver the word. To the Christian, God sent His Son who is the light of the world and truth. I wouldn’t change shoes with anyone for the whole world. Glory to God in the highest.

[Malaikah]

He said that even the prophet Muhammad wasn't sure of his salvation.

No wonder this guy is a former Muslim... where did he get his knowledge from? Anti-Islamic websites? The Prophet knew fully well that he was granted Paradise.

Looks like you friend never had much knowledge to begin with.

Do you know that Allah will save you from you sin on the last day? No, I didn’t think so either. I know I am covered, and I don't have to worry about facing a Christless eternity.

We are saved because of our own actions and the Mercy of God. It is called justice. Don't expect an evil sinning Muslim to enter paradise without being punished. That is not just.

No wonder your religion has so little rules that you need to follow. No one would follow them even if they did exist because they already think they are saved.

I don't know that I am covered. That is why I continue to do good deeds and strive in the way of Allah, because I need it. If I knew I was already guaranteed paradise I would not do half the good deeds I do now.

By the way, it is very arrogant of you to think you are guaranteed Paradise- you are not deed yet. You could die an atheist for all you know.

We have a sure foundation and there is no devil in hell that can shake it.

Yeh, a solid foundation based on a book whose authenticity is disputed. :rollseyes

According to Islam Allah sent messengers to deliver the word.

Yeh, same goes to Christianity, we believe in the more or less the same prophets, duh.

To the Christian, God sent His Son who is the light of the world and truth.

To the Muslim, God is well above all that you attribute to Him and your sin of attributing a Son to Him is so great that it even the mountains would crumble upon being exposed it, had God not protected them that.

To the Muslim, we know that God is Just and so would not punish an innocent with the sins of others, let alone allow Himself to be punished at the hands of His creation!! What blasphemy! We are all held accountable for our own deeds.

We know that our fate is in our own hands, and by doing good deeds ourselves and hoping for the Mercy of Allah we will be saved.

Paradise is for those who do good, not for lip service.

[Redeemed]

No wonder this guy is a former Muslim... where did he get his knowledge from? Anti-Islamic websites? The Prophet knew fully well that he was granted Paradise.

Looks like you friend never had much knowledge to begin with.


We are saved because of our own actions and the Mercy of God. It is called justice. Don't expect an evil sinning Muslim to enter paradise without being punished. That is not just.

No wonder your religion has so little rules that you need to follow. No one would follow them even if they did exist because they already think they are saved.

I don't know that I am covered. That is why I continue to do good deeds and strive in the way of Allah, because I need it. If I knew I was already guaranteed paradise I would not do half the good deeds I do now.

By the way, it is very arrogant of you to think you are guaranteed Paradise- you are not deed yet. You could die an atheist for all you know.




Yeh, a solid foundation based on a book whose authenticity is disputed. :rollseyes



Yeh, same goes to Christianity, we believe in the more or less the same prophets, duh.



To the Muslim, God is well above all that you attribute to Him and your sin of attributing a Son to Him is so great that it even the mountains would crumble upon being exposed it, had God not protected them that.

To the Muslim, we know that God is Just and so would not punish an innocent with the sins of others, let alone allow Himself to be punished at the hands of His creation!! What blasphemy! We are all held accountable for our own deeds.

We know that our fate is in our own hands, and by doing good deeds ourselves and hoping for the Mercy of Allah we will be saved.

Paradise is for those who do good, not for lip service.

Is it not true that Muhammad said that even though he is an apostel of Allah he doesn't know what Allah will do to him? He even said that one can be tormented in the grave just for soiling his pants. If you are not sure it can be found in the hadith 5.266 and look at 2.460. Either you are not being honest with me or you don't know the QUR'AN as well as I thought!
Peace

[Woodrow]

Is it not true that Muhammad said that even though he is an apostel of Allah he doesn't know what Allah will do to him? He even said that one can be tormented in the grave just for soiling his pants. If you are not sure it can be found in the hadith 5.266 and look at 2.460. Either you are not being honest with me or you don't know the QUR'AN as well as I thought!
Peace

Just want to clarify a few things. The Ahadith are not part of the Qur'an, although we do give much credability to the Ahadith and are obligated to obey the authentic Ahadith. The Hadith are much more like the Gospels, rather than being the words of God(swt) they are the words of reliable witnesses. The reliability of ahadith is dependent upon it's authenticity, which is why when we quote any Hadith it is essential to name the narrator of the Hadith.

Trying to find authentic hadith that correspond with the numbers that you mention I find from Bukhari:

Volumn 001, Book 005, Hadith Number 266.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Maimuna bint Al-Harith : I placed water for the bath of Allah's Apostle and put a screen. He poured water over his hands, and washed them once or twice. (The subnarrator added that he did not remember if she had said thrice or not). Then he poured water with his right hand over his left one and washed his private parts. He rubbed his hand over the earth or the wall and washed it. He rinsed his mouth and washed his nose by putting water in it and blowing it out. He washed his face, forearms and head. He poured water over his body and then withdrew from that place and washed his feet. I presented him a piece of cloth (towel) and he pointed with his hand (that he does not want it) and did not take it.

There is no ayyat in the Qur'an numbered 5:266 so I am assuming you are talking about an Hadith.


I do not find any authentic hadith numbered 2:460,, Nor is there any ayyat in the Qur'an listed as 2:460

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[Philosopher]

LOL, alapiana1 got owned.

[Woodrow]

LOL, alapiana1 got owned.

I don't see it that way. He is not Muslim and I do not expect him to be familiar with the Qur'an or the Ahadith. I can understand how there would be some confusion for a Non-Muslim over the words we use.

I do disagree with his beliefs and believe he is in error. But, I also believe he is very sincere as to what he does believe.

Because I disagree with his beliefs does not mean I believe he would intentionaly say something invalid.

[NoName55]

.................But, I also believe he is very sincere as to what he does believe
.............I believe he would (not) intentionaly say something invalid.

Then why does he never give a direct answer when a straight forward question is asked?

[Woodrow]

[QUOTE=NoName55;749890]

.................But, I also believe he is very sincere as to what he does believe
.............I believe he would intentionaly say something invalid........
/quote]Then why does he never give a direct answer when a straight forward question is asked?

Only he can answer that.

I am assuming it is either an oversight or an honest lack of knowledge to answer the question. I believe that he was under the impression that his answers would be self evident and that he would never be questioned as to the validity of them.

I do not think he expected the reaction he gets from us and is only just now realizing that his beliefs and answers are self evident only to him. Since we as Muslims do question everything, we do not accept anything simply because it is told to us. This can be quite a difficult awakening to anybody who has accepted blind faith. I doubt that he expected the reactions he has been getting and that he expected us to believe everything because it is written in the Bible. We are probably the first people he has come across that do not accept the bible as being the word of God(swt)

[ummzayd]

By the way, the Qur'an misrepresents Biblical Christianity. It bases its assumptions on Catholicism, because no where in the Bible does it state that followers of Christ are to include Mary as deity or part of the trinity. Remember, we do not see God as one in three gods. We see Him as one substance yet three persons, and contrary to the Qur'an, Mary is not part of it.

last time I looked Catholics were in the majority (by a long way) in the Christian world. and Catholics worship Mary. And a god is 'one who is worthy of worship'. so they take Mary as a god.

the part of qur'an you quoted doesn't mention bible or trinity. as usual, no mistake there. it is entirely correct and even precise. all praise belongs to Allah ta'ala.

peace

[NoName55]

Only he can answer that.

I am assuming it is either an oversight or an honest lack of knowledge to answer the question. I believe that he was under the impression that his answers would be self evident and that he would never be questioned as to the validity of them.

I do not think he expected the reaction he gets from us and is only just now realizing that his beliefs and answers are self evident only to him. Since we as Muslims do question everything, we do not accept anything simply because it is told to us. This can be quite a difficult awakening to anybody who has accepted blind faith. I doubt that he expected the reactions he has been getting and that he expected us to believe everything because it is written in the Bible. We are probably the first people he has come across that do not accept the bible as being the word of God(swt)

JazakAllah khaira wa Salaam Alaikum :)

[Malaikah]

Is it not true that Muhammad said that even though he is an apostel of Allah he doesn't know what Allah will do to him? He even said that one can be tormented in the grave just for soiling his pants. If you are not sure it can be found in the hadith 5.266 and look at 2.460. Either you are not being honest with me or you don't know the QUR'AN as well as I thought!
Peace

I know what I am talking about. I also know which hadith you are referring too, and that there is a context and interpretation to it. I can't remember what it was though- I think it might have been that the Prophet pbuh said it BEFORE it was clarified to him that he would enter paradise without being punished.

Anyway, don't quote me on that, I'm not 100% certain. The one thing I am certain about is that your friend is wrong and the Prophet was guaranteed paradise.

[MustafaMc]

A former Muslim told me the more knowledge you have the less your security you have. He said that even the prophet Muhammad wasn't sure of his salvation. If that is the case, where do you think you stand? Do you know that Allah will save you from you sin on the last day? No, I didn’t think so either. I know I am covered, and I don't have to worry about facing a Christless eternity. I do not commit shirk as you may suppose, because I believe in the true God and Creator of the worlds. The God I know first loved me, and it is His goodness that leads me to repentance. You must love your God in order to be loved back (maybe). We have a sure foundation and there is no devil in hell that can shake it. We have something to offer that no other religion has, and it makes Satan mad. We have the light. According to Islam Allah sent messengers to deliver the word. To the Christian, God sent His Son who is the light of the world and truth. I wouldn’t change shoes with anyone for the whole world. Glory to God in the highest.

This deception of falsely being assured of salvation is what may mislead Muslims from the straight path they are on. Muslims be warned!

[Redeemed]

I know what I am talking about. I also know which hadith you are referring too, and that there is a context and interpretation to it. I can't remember what it was though- I think it might have been that the Prophet pbuh said it BEFORE it was clarified to him that he would enter paradise without being punished.

Anyway, don't quote me on that, I'm not 100% certain. The one thing I am certain about is that your friend is wrong and the Prophet was guaranteed paradise.

The only earnest we have of paradise is having the Holy Spirit and being sealded by the blood of the lamb hid in Christ.

[vpb]

I can see that you have not grasped the degree of security and assurance we do have as Muslims. We know that Allah(swt) is all just and merciful. We do know that he will punish us no more than what our sins warrant, but that out of his goodness and forgiveness he will reward us countless times more than what we could ever be worthy of. We trust in His word without any question and know fully that he will guide us as we walk on the path to Jannah.

True. Only with justice we go to Hell, but it's the forgivness of Allah swt that helps us to enter Jannah.
may Allah make us of those who enter Jannah.

[Redeemed]

This deception of falsely being assured of salvation is what may mislead Muslims from the straight path they are on. Muslims be warned!

It sounds more like not having assurance leads away from the straight path. It is like walking in darkness with the blind leading the blind as Jesus puts it and the dead burying their dead.:blind:

[Phil12123]

Hi, Woodrow. It's been months since I've been in any discussions on this board and I may not stick around to enter many now, but your words did seem to need some response.

I can see that you have not grasped the degree of security and assurance we do have as Muslims. We know that Allah(swt) is all just and merciful. We do know that he will punish us no more than what our sins warrant, but that out of his goodness and forgiveness he will reward us countless times more than what we could ever be worthy of. We trust in His word without any question and know fully that he will guide us as we walk on the path to Jannah.

Christians have "security and assurance" based on the promises of the Bible, the Word of God. That may appear as "arrogance," as you called it in another post, but we are simply trusting in God to keep His promises. The Apostle John wrote,

1 John 5:11. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

So, we can KNOW we HAVE eternal life---right now and forever. It's not something we can really boast or be arrogant about, because WE don't deserve it. We are all sinners. It is not the justice of God we seek. That would be US paying for all our own sins. It is His mercy and grace that gives us FREELY His forgiveness based on the shed blood of Christ for our sins. The problem we Christians see is that you Muslims are rejecting the payment that God Himself provided for your sins. That being the case, you have to pay for all of them yourself for all eternity. There are no scales. If you have one sin---just one single sin---that you are not relying on Christ to have paid for, you will pay for it yourself for all eternity. None of your so-called "good deeds" or "good works" will ever cancel out one single sin.

So, Christians see Muslims as mislead into thinking that they will ever get to heaven by their own efforts. Paul, writing to the Christians at Ephesus, put it this way:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace [=God's giving us freely that which we don't deserve] you have been saved [rescued, delivered from..hell] through faith [trusting in, relying upon Him], and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Writing to Titus, Paul said:

Titus 3:4. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared [=another way of saying "grace"],
5. not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6. whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7. that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

So, we see you as being on the wrong path, headed exactly where you do NOT want to go, because what you're doing and relying on to get to heaven will not take you there. Thankfully, many Muslims have come to a saving knowledge of Christ and have embraced Him as Savior and Lord, receiving His gift of LIFE, both now and hereafter. As quoted above, "he who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Peace

[Redeemed]

Hi, Woodrow. It's been months since I've been in any discussions on this board and I may not stick around to enter many now, but your words did seem to need some response.



Christians have "security and assurance" based on the promises of the Bible, the Word of God. That may appear as "arrogance," as you called it in another post, but we are simply trusting in God to keep His promises. The Apostle John wrote,

1 John 5:11. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

So, we can KNOW we HAVE eternal life---right now and forever. It's not something we can really boast or be arrogant about, because WE don't deserve it. We are all sinners. It is not the justice of God we seek. That would be US paying for all our own sins. It is His mercy and grace that gives us FREELY His forgiveness based on the shed blood of Christ for our sins. The problem we Christians see is that you Muslims are rejecting the payment that God Himself provided for your sins. That being the case, you have to pay for all of them yourself for all eternity. There are no scales. If you have one sin---just one single sin---that you are not relying on Christ to have paid for, you will pay for it yourself for all eternity. None of your so-called "good deeds" or "good works" will ever cancel out one single sin.

So, Christians see Muslims as mislead into thinking that they will ever get to heaven by their own efforts. Paul, writing to the Christians at Ephesus, put it this way:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace [=God's giving us freely that which we don't deserve] you have been saved [rescued, delivered from..hell] through faith [trusting in, relying upon Him], and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Writing to Titus, Paul said:

Titus 3:4. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared [=another way of saying "grace"],
5. not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6. whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7. that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

So, we see you as being on the wrong path, headed exactly where you do NOT want to go, because what you're doing and relying on to get to heaven will not take you there. Thankfully, many Muslims have come to a saving knowledge of Christ and have embraced Him as Savior and Lord, receiving His gift of LIFE, both now and hereafter. As quoted above, "he who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Peace

Amen to that:thumbs_up
The boasting is OK if it is in the Lord.

[Grace Seeker]

What you see in us as insecurity we see as acknowledgement of the power of Allah(swt) We accept the fact that Allah(swt) is greater than us and it is only his will that is of importance. we have no control over what Allah(swt) will do, it is His will and it is for us to accept it and be forever grateful for what ever He chooses to bestow upon us. We also have faith that He will be fair and mercifull in his choices.

In contrast we see what you call security as being arrogance and an insult to the Power of Allah(swt). Do you not know that if for any reason He chooses he has the power to cast you and who ever he desires into the hellfire and he owes us humans no explanation as to why? Do you deny the absolute authority of Allah(swt) and feel that he does not have the right or ability to do as he wishes? Is not everything ultimatly up to the will of Allah(swt) and He will do as He wills, Inshallah?

I also believe Allah(swt) keeps his word and that in the Qur'an He has said:

This last point, that God keeps his word, is where the confidence and assurance comes from for the Christian. There should be no arrogance, because you are right, the only place that we are worthy of is hell. If God was only just then that is exactly where all Christians would spend eternity. But we also have found God to be gracious. A gracious that is not the result of any of our actions. We can't earn or merit any of God's blessings. They are all acts of God's mercy directed toward us. But we do have God's word, that those who believe in Jesus Christ, who confess him as their Lord and Savior, will be saved.

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)

Maybe others will be saved as well. I'm not going to exclude the possibility, because that is for God, not me, to determine. But we do have this promise, and, as a Christain, I trust God to keep his promise made to us in Christ Jesus. How could one call believing God to be true to his word arrogance? It's just confidence is all.

[ummzayd]

There are no scales.

He will weigh me in accurate scales, and God will get to know my integrity. Job 31:6

[Philosopher]

The choice is yours. Choose LIFE and live forever, by receiving His GIFT today!

Peace

All hail the flying spaghetti monster.

In all seriousness, I'd rather avoid heaven living with perverts and mass murderers and rather say in hell with Gandhi.

[جوري]

We have read that one before.. another recycled piece.. I have always considered Atheists and Atheism in general to be blasé and linear, but must you confirm it repeatedly?

[جوري]

With Christ:
He pays for them

btw.. I don't believe in sin eaters... you did the crime you'll do the time, Jesus ain't gonna help you.. you are on your own!

peace!

[Muslim Knight]

A gift cannot be worked for or earned, but simply received. But it MUST be received, or you will never possess it.

The choice is yours. Choose LIFE and live forever, by receiving His GIFT today!

Peace

A gift cannot be earned, you say. It must be received you say.

Why is this God reluctant to give to Muslims unless they accept Jesus as savior. If they accept Jesus which means they have to do something first before receiving that salvation and that accounts to a work.

If truly this is a gift, then God must be able to dispense this freely without strings attached.

Let say you're bound for prison. But to receive my gift of freedom you must give me something in return.

That isn't giving gift. It's a bribe.

[Grace Seeker]

A gift cannot be earned, you say. It must be received you say.

Why is this God reluctant to give to Muslims unless they accept Jesus as savior. If they accept Jesus which means they have to do something first before receiving that salvation and that accounts to a work.

If truly this is a gift, then God must be able to dispense this freely without strings attached.

Let say you're bound for prison. But to receive my gift of freedom you must give me something in return.

That isn't giving gift. It's a bribe.

Let say that after Ramadan, I gave you a big jar of sweets to celebrate. I wrapped it all up nice and pretty even with a great big bow on it. I hand it to you and you place it on the coffeetable in your living room.

A year later I return to see them just as they were a year before, completely untouched. Now, did you receive my gift or not? Would opening the jar and eating them have constituted work on your part and made it something less than a gift on my part? Belief in Jesus means that we trust him enough to actually include him as a part of our life, not just an idea that we conceptualize. But it is no more our work than it is to take and eat a piece of the candy. Indeed it is even less work, for as soon as we give permission for Jesus to be in our lives he is there, no work (on our part) to it at all and it isn't a bribe either. But if all you do is put it on the coffeetable without partaking of it, you might as well have refused the gift in the first place, becuase either way you are missing out on the sweatness of life that I was offering to you.

[جوري]

hmmmmmmmmn Great Analogy Gene
How about I received your gift and was allergic to some ingredients, it wouldn't make sense that I eat the part that is actually bad for me would it?? but did end up eating the portion that did make sense as to accept your gift so you are not completely rejected, while not doing myself harm at the same time...
in a way we accept Jesus PBUH as a messenger but not as a G-D or a son of G-D.. as that part of the deal is extremely hazardous to health...
peace

[Muslim Knight]

Now we're talking about salvation here and where'd we all end up. Not about accepting candies. Leave it or take it. I can also take it and keeping it in my pocket without eating. There's no punishment in rejecting a candy.

Now Hell or prison is different case here. We were talking about accepting someone so that we would have to go to either. Salvation is a matter of life and death.

To choose a man, created by God, powerless on his own, as Savior. Or to choose The God Himself, who has power over all things, as Savior when indeed He is the Most Merciful who can save us from our sins and eternal torment of hellfire.

[Grace Seeker]

hmmmmmmmmn Great Analogy Gene
How about I received your gift and was allergic to some ingredients, it wouldn't make sense that I eat the part that is actually bad for me would it?? but did end up eating the portion that did make sense as to accept your gift so you are not completely rejected, while not doing myself harm at the same time...
in a way we accept Jesus PBUH as a messenger but not as a G-D or a son of G-D.. as that part of the deal is extremely hazardous to health...
peace

Accept I'm not the one giving you the gift, God is. You allergy is all in your head. And God gives his gift to make you well. The sickness has made you so that you prefer to substitute something that is not as good for you as the gift God has given.

[جوري]

Gene you are a clever one.. But I've used EpiPen twice in my life and know that allergies are never in the head-- better stay away from things that flare them!

peace!

[August]

To choose a man, created by God, powerless on his own, as Savior. Or to choose The God Himself, who has power over all things, as Savior when indeed He is the Most Merciful who can save us from our sins and eternal torment of hellfire.

To Christians, Jesus is God. God loves us so much that He came down to Earth and lived as a man, just so that He could die for our sins. Jesus is the Son of God, and was a man, but he is also God the Father. Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit together make up God. This is monotheism, it may be complicated, but it is the truth. Simplicity is not an indicator of truth.

[Philosopher]

www.debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com

[Grace Seeker]

Now we're talking about salvation here and where'd we all end up. Not about accepting candies. Leave it or take it. I can also take it and keeping it in my pocket without eating. There's no punishment in rejecting a candy.

Now Hell or prison is different case here. We were talking about accepting someone so that we would have to go to either. Salvation is a matter of life and death.

To choose a man, created by God, powerless on his own, as Savior. Or to choose The God Himself, who has power over all things, as Savior when indeed He is the Most Merciful who can save us from our sins and eternal torment of hellfire.

OK. You're bound for hell or prison. God comes along and says I can get you out of here, but you have to trust me. You have to give up your life to me, only then can I save it. You claim that it is conditioned on doing all the things that Muhammad (pbuh) has laid out as the proper steps. I claim that faith in Christ is the only precondition.

And why is one significantly different from the other, again it comes back to a proper verses improper understanding of the Trinity.

In doing the things asked by Muhammad one is in essence proving to God one's own goodness. Even though Islam teaches that a just God will reject our goodness as not being worthy of him and that in the end it depends on his mercy, still Islam has a scale that balances good works vs bad deeds and this is supposed to effect the amount of punishment one receives. So it is still a works based type of salvation.

In Chrisitiany, belief in Christ is believe (i.e. trust) in the work that Jesus did on the cross as God taking upon himself the sins of humanity and absolving us of the guilt associated with them and imputing his own righteousness to us. This is true because it is God himself reconciling the world to himself in Jesus Christ (see 2 Corinthians 5:19). We totally depend on him to keep his word in that regard because we do not believe that our works will get us anywhere but continue us on our way to hell.

[Grace Seeker]

Gene you are a clever one.. But I've used EpiPen twice in my life and know that allergies are never in the head-- better stay away from things that flare them!

peace!

Allergies are never in the head? Please, tell that to my sinus passages. :D

[MustafaMc]

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
This deception of falsely being assured of salvation is what may mislead Muslims from the straight path they are on. Muslims be warned!

It sounds more like not having assurance leads away from the straight path. It is like walking in darkness with the blind leading the blind as Jesus puts it and the dead burying their dead.:blind:

No, the point is that being assured of salvation is more alluring than to have any uncertainty in the matter. I am warning Muslims against abandoning the rope of Islamic faith for this false promise (in my opinion) of the Christian "plan of salvation."

[MustafaMc]

So, we can KNOW we HAVE eternal life---right now and forever. It's not something we can really boast or be arrogant about, because WE don't deserve it. We are all sinners.

You may BELIEVE that you have eternal life because you BELIEVE the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and it promises those who believe in the name of the Son of God, just like I BELIEVE that I have eternal life because I BELIEVE the Quran is the inerrant Word of God and it makes the promise for those who believe in the One God and pray, do good works, etc. Neither of us can KNOW this side of Judgement Day that we are going to Heaven.

It is not the justice of God we seek. That would be US paying for all our own sins. It is His mercy and grace that gives us FREELY His forgiveness based on the shed blood of Christ for our sins. The problem we Christians see is that you Muslims are rejecting the payment that God Himself provided for your sins. That being the case, you have to pay for all of them yourself for all eternity. There are no scales. If you have one sin---just one single sin---that you are not relying on Christ to have paid for, you will pay for it yourself for all eternity. None of your so-called "good deeds" or "good works" will ever cancel out one single sin.

So, Christians see Muslims as mislead into thinking that they will ever get to heaven by their own efforts. Paul, writing to the Christians at Ephesus, put it this way:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace [=God's giving us freely that which we don't deserve] you have been saved [rescued, delivered from..hell] through faith [trusting in, relying upon Him], and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Writing to Titus, Paul said:

Titus 3:4. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared [=another way of saying "grace"],
5. not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6. whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7. that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Sounds like Christians talk out of both sides of their mouth on this issue. James 2:14-17 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

So, we see you as being on the wrong path, headed exactly where you do NOT want to go, because what you're doing and relying on to get to heaven will not take you there.

Likewise, we see Christians as being misled and commiting the unforgivable sin of ascribing partners with Allah.

[Grace Seeker]

Origiinally posted by Phil12123

So, Christians see Muslims as mislead into thinking that they will ever get to heaven by their own efforts. Paul, writing to the Christians at Ephesus, put it this way:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace [=God's giving us freely that which we don't deserve] you have been saved [rescued, delivered from..hell] through faith [trusting in, relying upon Him], and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Writing to Titus, Paul said:

Titus 3:4. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared [=another way of saying "grace"],
5. not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6. whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7. that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You may BELIEVE that you have eternal life because you BELIEVE the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and it promises those who believe in the name of the Son of God, just like I BELIEVE that I have eternal life because I BELIEVE the Quran is the inerrant Word of God and it makes the promise for those who believe in the One God and pray, do good works, etc. Neither of us can KNOW this side of Judgement Day that we are going to Heaven.


Sounds like Christians talk out of both sides of their mouth on this issue. James 2:14-17 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

It is a good question. One many Christians themselves ask.

The works do not save in and of themselves. Salvation is always an act of God's grace. We approach that grace in faith. But faith without works is dead. The works are an expression of thanksgiving to the one in whom we put our faith for his work of salvation in our lives. Wtihout that expression of thanksgiving, one questions the validity of the faith.

[Woodrow]

It is a good question. One many Christians themselves ask.

The works do not save in and of themselves. Salvation is always an act of God's grace. We approach that grace in faith. But faith without works is dead. The works are an expression of thanksgiving to the one in whom we put our faith for his work of salvation in our lives. Wtihout that expression of thanksgiving, one questions the validity of the faith.

As Muslims our view of works and faith is very similar to that for we are aware that works without faith are worthless. We do not believe any person could ever perform enough good works to earn his way into heaven, but we do have faith Allah(swt) will reward us in accordance to his mercy and not in accordance of what we have earned.

[Phil12123]

All hail the flying spaghetti monster.

In all seriousness, I'd rather avoid heaven living with perverts and mass murderers and rather say in hell with Gandhi.

You mean, "stay" in hell with Gandhi, right? Well, you will get your wish. God doesn't force heaven on anyone, except maybe aborted babies, etc. who had no choice in the matter.

The only "perverts and mass murderers" who will be in heaven are those who have been forgiven and have become a new creature or a "new creation" ---therefore they are no longer perverts and mass murderers.

2 Corinthians 5:17-- Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

Actually, anyone who goes to heaven will be a sinner (to one degree or another) who has been forgiven. So the key is forgiveness of sins. You only get that as a free gift from God which has been paid for IN FULL by Christ and His atoning death on the cross.

So, if YOU get to heaven (if you wanted to go), it will only be because you have been forgiven. But that will never happen without Christ and your receiving His free gift of eternal life.

Peace

[Phil12123]

btw.. I don't believe in sin eaters... you did the crime you'll do the time, Jesus ain't gonna help you.. you are on your own!

If Jesus "ain't gonna help" me, then I am doomed to pay for my own sins for all eternity, and SO ARE YOU!!!!! If HE didn't pay for them, WE have to. It is as simple as that. There is no other remedy. You can't do enough good works to erase any of your sins. They still remain. So, what is your answer to the sin problem? Satan would love for you to think if you work REAL hard and be REAL "good" you will get to heaven. NOT!!! That isn't possible. NONE of us are, or ever will be, good enough to deserve heaven. We are all sinners!! In word, thought, or deed. And probably EVERY DAY, if not every hour. And the longer we live, the more they all mount up. So, how are you ever getting to heaven? By dying while you're killing a bunch of innocent people in some jihad? All the suicide bombers are depending on that; they are staking their eternity on it. What are you staking your eternity on? How "good" you can be? Good luck!!!

Peace

[Phil12123]

A gift cannot be earned, you say. It must be received you say.

Why is this God reluctant to give to Muslims unless they accept Jesus as savior. If they accept Jesus which means they have to do something first before receiving that salvation and that accounts to a work.

If truly this is a gift, then God must be able to dispense this freely without strings attached.

Let say you're bound for prison. But to receive my gift of freedom you must give me something in return.

That isn't giving gift. It's a bribe.

Let's use your prison analogy. What if I say (and it's true) that I am the governor and I can give you a full pardon and you can walk out of the prison a free man, with your prison record totally expunged, so you are not only free but also have a completely clean record? But what if I say, to receive your pardon, all you have to do, is admit you committed the crime, say you're sorry, and say to me, Yes, I accept your pardon! Wouldn't that still be a free gift? Admitting your crime and saying you're sorry would be like repentance. Saying you accept the pardon would be like faith---believing I am the governor and that I really have a valid pardon to give you. Because, after all, if I really don't have the authority or power to give you a pardon, you can say or do anything and it will not get you a pardon or the freedom it brings.

That pardon is available to all Muslims, actually to everyone on this earth. But if they don't accept the Giver of the pardon for Who HE really is, it is like saying, you aren't the governor and you can't give me a pardon. Instead I will work my way out of this prison...being a model prisoner and my good behavior will get me out. NOT!!! The "strings" are the same for everyone---repentance and faith. But beyond that, it is FREE and cannot be worked for or deserved.

Peace

[vpb]

If Jesus "ain't gonna help" me, then I am doomed to pay for my own sins for all eternity, and SO ARE YOU!!!!! If HE didn't pay for them, WE have to. It is as simple as that. There is no other remedy. You can't do enough good works to erase any of your sins. They still remain. So, what is your answer to the sin problem? Satan would love for you to think if you work REAL hard and be REAL "good" you will get to heaven. NOT!!! That isn't possible. NONE of us are, or ever will be, good enough to deserve heaven. We are all sinners!! In word, thought, or deed. And probably EVERY DAY, if not every hour. And the longer we live, the more they all mount up.

yes of course that only with justice we go to hell, bc we cannot reach the level of doing good deeds to enter Heaven, so Allah swt multiplies our good deeds, even if we just had an intention of it, and also through his mercy we get to heaven, unless you join Allah swt in partnership and died like that, then you are not forgiven. So basically we do the best we can, following his guidance sent through messengers, (at this time, the guidance through Muhammed saws), and then we hope we get reward and mercy from Allah and enter Jannah, and at the same time fear from hellfire and make sure we go away from things that lead to hellfire.

So, how are you ever getting to heaven? By dying while you're killing a bunch of innocent people in some jihad? All the suicide bombers are depending on that; they are staking their eternity on it. What are you staking your eternity on? How "good" you can be? Good luck!!!

lol, I can see how frostrated you are, you seems to be pretty nervous, the way you expressed yourself, but it is showing your ignorance , be a little bit smarter. and as for jihad, there are ways which you earn paradise, if you die in the battlefield, killed by the enemy you go shaheed(martyr), u got any problem with that? you got any problem fighting for your own country and get killed by your enemy (i'm not talking about suicide bombers)???? but the difference between you and us, is that we do Jihad fisabililah, you do jihad fisabili shaitan, bc we both do jihad.

[Woodrow]

Peace Phil,

I just have to respond to this. although I know you will disagree, but that is your right and I would not expect you not to disagree.

If Jesus "ain't gonna help" me, then I am doomed to pay for my own sins for all eternity, and SO ARE YOU!!!!!

Unless God(swt) truly is all just and merciful and will only judge us in accordance to our abilities, intentions and strengths. Which it seems a merciful God(swt) would do.

If HE didn't pay for them, WE have to. It is as simple as that. There is no other remedy.

That is only fair and to be expected. we can not sin and honestly justify getting off scott free. We even teach our children that they will pay for damages they do.

You can't do enough good works to erase any of your sins. They still remain.

None of us has the ability to do sufficient good to erase even our smallest sin.

So, what is your answer to the sin problem?

The unlimited mercy of Allah(swt)

Satan would love for you to think if you work REAL hard and be REAL "good" you will get to heaven. NOT!!! That isn't possible.

Of course not. None of us can offer a single thing that God(swt) needs.

NONE of us are, or ever will be, good enough to deserve heaven. We are all sinners!! In word, thought, or deed. And probably EVERY DAY, if not every hour.

Probably every second and with every thought

And the longer we live, the more they all mount up. So, how are you ever getting to heaven?

By having faith that Allah(swt) will give us guidance on the path and that He will judge us from his eyes of pure mercy and will reward us with the things He has promised us.

By dying while you're killing a bunch of innocent people in some jihad? All the suicide bombers are depending on that; they are staking their eternity on it.

I believe most in fact over 90% of the world's Muslims would say that will most often lead to a very fast trip to eternal hellfire

What are you staking your eternity on? How "good" you can be? Good luck!!!Peace

Not on anything I can do, but I do have faith that Allah(swt) has the power to forgive my sins and that He will Judge me with the purest of justice and perfect mercy.

[جوري]

Having good intent, and doing the best you can, that is how you earn your place in heaven-- if you think you can for instance [(bang your way through life)-al la mode of Anna Nicole Smith] and be saved "through Christ" simply because she said I love you Jesus, then I truly feel sorry for you. I had written quite an extensive piece but unfortunately lost it, as my computer froze, no matter.. Religion should be simple, it should satisfy both heart and mind. A G-D creating himself, having a son, a wife and a ghost, doesn't make good logical sense to me. Religion should please the rational mind. After extensive questioning, you'll arrive to either, there is a G-D logically, though you might not understand his nature, or there isn't and everything was directed by a billion positive chances, that favored us and favored this earth out of all the other gaseous planets. from there onward everything else save the nature of G-D which is beyond comprehension for our human mind, should make sense-- A G-D with a son and a wife, doesn't make sense, a G-D that eats people's sins doesn't make sense, a G-D that takes away your free will doesn't make sense, A G-D with human needs doesn't make sense, a G-D that prays to himself in the gardens of Gethsemane doesn't make sense, a G-D that curses (himself) I assume after not having found a tree with dates in the distance, in the earth that he supposedly created doesn't make sense, a G-D that asks you to keep commandments to another G-D, yet calls himself G-D doesn't make sense... I can go on further but would be a terrible transgression to both the nature of Jesus PBUH and an even worst transgression toward Allah, exalted is he above all that you ascribe to him --- since the series of divine revelations were given to man-kind. Each one spoke of the nature of G-D being one not just (wahid) but (ahad,) I ask even the Muslim members here what is the difference between the term

أَحَدٌ

and

واحِد

and that is how G-D descibes himself.... I really want an answer to that question the difference between wahid

واحِد

and Ahad

أَحَدٌ

Which is how G-D describes himself in the Quran, both terms denote one in Arabic, but one has a more descriptive meaning and describes the nature of Allah..
with that I leave with these Noble words from the Quran, about Justice, and deeds.....

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِذَا زُلْزِلَتِ الْأَرْضُ زِلْزَالَهَا {1}

[Pickthal 99:1] When Earth is shaken with her (final) earthquake

وَأَخْرَجَتِ الْأَرْضُ أَثْقَالَهَا {2}

[Pickthal 99:2] And Earth yieldeth up her burdens,

وَقَالَ الْإِنسَانُ مَا لَهَا {3}

[Pickthal 99:3] And man saith: What aileth her?

يَوْمَئِذٍ تُحَدِّثُ أَخْبَارَهَا {4}

[Pickthal 99:4] That day she will relate her chronicles,

بِأَنَّ رَبَّكَ أَوْحَى لَهَا {5}

[Pickthal 99:5] Because thy Lord inspireth her.

يَوْمَئِذٍ يَصْدُرُ النَّاسُ أَشْتَاتًا لِّيُرَوْا أَعْمَالَهُمْ {6}

[Pickthal 99:6] That day mankind will issue forth in scattered groups to be shown their deeds.

فَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًا يَرَهُ {7}

[Pickthal 99:7] And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,

وَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ شَرًّا يَرَهُ {8}

[Pickthal 99:8] And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.


*****
peace!

[August]

Having good intent, and doing the best you can, that is how you earn your place in heaven-- if you think you can for instance [(bang your way through life)-al la mode of Anna Nicole Smith] and be saved "through Christ" simply because she said I love you Jesus, then I truly feel sorry for you.

Not all Christians believe this. Certain branches of Protestantism do, as you say, believe that you can pretty much do whatever as long as you really believe in Jesus. As a Catholic, I believe that you must have faith in Christ, but what you do also matters. "Faith without works is dead."

[Grace Seeker]

yes of course that only with justice we go to hell, bc we cannot reach the level of doing good deeds to enter Heaven, so Allah swt multiplies our good deeds, even if we just had an intention of it, and also through his mercy we get to heaven,

Here is the problem I see with the first part of your logic.

1) You admit that with justice we go to hell
2) You admit that we cannot reach the lovel of doing good deeds to enter heaven
But then (3) you claim that Allah multiplies our good deeds


My problem is that if in point #2 no amount of good deeds is enough to get us to heaven, then the fact that Allah multiplies them doesn't change anything. It is still true that no amount of good deeds, even an infinite amount is an amount, is enough to get us to heaven. So there is no way to heaven through good deeds.

4) then you add, and also through his mercy we get to heaven.

My comment is that it would seem that one should not say also through his mercy, but only through his mercy, if in fact your previous points were all true.

[Phil12123]

You may BELIEVE that you have eternal life because you BELIEVE the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and it promises those who believe in the name of the Son of God, just like I BELIEVE that I have eternal life because I BELIEVE the Quran is the inerrant Word of God and it makes the promise for those who believe in the One God and pray, do good works, etc. Neither of us can KNOW this side of Judgement Day that we are going to Heaven.

Do you really believe you HAVE eternal life, right now, a present possession? Does the Quran really give you that promise? You say you can't KNOW this side of Judgment Day that you're going to Heaven. So you don't really KNOW that you HAVE eternal life NOW. You have to wait till Judgment Day to know it. Only then will you KNOW if you believed enough, prayed enough, did enough good works, etc. to go to Heaven. Right? So you can't have real assurance that you're going to Heaven. You might not have prayed enough, worked enough, etc.

You know you have to have your sins forgiven or you will never get into Heaven. What are you doing that you think will get them forgiven? What definite promise is there in the Quran that any of your sins will be forgiven, NOW or EVER? Can you really KNOW that any of them are forgiven NOW, or do you have to wait till Judgment Day to know if a particular sin has been forgiven?

Likewise, we see Christians as being misled and commiting the unforgivable sin of ascribing partners with Allah.

Genesis 1:26. Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.''
27. So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 3:22. Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever''
23. therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.

Would you please comment on the meaning of the "Us" and "Our". It would appear that God Himself has associated with Himself others. Also:

John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Peace

[Grace Seeker]

We should retitle this thread, "Views on Atonement for Sin."

Peace Phil,

Originally Posted by Phil12123
If Jesus "ain't gonna help" me, then I am doomed to pay for my own sins for all eternity, and SO ARE YOU!!!!!

Unless God(swt) truly is all just and merciful and will only judge us in accordance to our abilities, intentions and strengths. Which it seems a merciful God(swt) would do.

And to whom will Allah be merciful? Is there a way to know in advance? Or is it all a crap shoot? Will Allah be merciful to all persons? To all Muslims? To all "good" Muslims (whatever the means, and however that is deteremined)?

The Christian answer is that God has promised grace to all who are in relationship with him through Jesus Christ. To me, this seems reasonable too. God could be merciful to everyone, but that seems highly unlikely. For then why should God suggest to any of us that we should folllow his will, if he does not plan to hold us accountable to it? But in holding us accountable we all fail to pass the test and none of us can be saved based on our actions. So, it takes God's action to save us. The Muslim answers that it is simply a decision that God makes. The Christian answers that this decision is influenced by the nature of our relationship with God. Now, I actually see that this is true for the Muslim as well. The nature of the Muslim's relationship is one of submission. But that gets back to human obedience and the problems we have in none of us being good enough on our own. So, Woodrow adds that God looks at our intentions as well. Perhaps Muslims can have good intentions and just fail in the area of following through, but I honestly wonder whether that describes reality. My experience is that there are times that I know the difference between being in God's will and being out of God's will and I still choose that which I know is not in God's will. If this is the case for others as it is for me, then none of us are perfect in intentions either, and we are right back where we started.

So, then what does one do. Well, some have said that God weighs our deeds and intentions, but this is the same as saying that we can be good enough. That somehow the scales of our actions will tip in our favor. And yet that is contradictory to what has already been expressed regarding our inability to measure up. So, again, we are simply back to depending wholly on God's unmerited mercy toward us, and that is the Christian definition of grace.

So ultimately both Islam and Christianity are grace based salvation experiences. The difference between them is whether or not Christ can play a role in anyone's life other than his own. The Muslim says "No, we are each judged on our own actions." But that gets us back to works again. The Christian says, "Yes, we are judged on the basis of our relationship with God in Christ, because of the cross." But honestly, if the Christian will look at it more deeply, that also gets us back to works. However, this time it is not the person's work, but Christ's work. Christ being not God's partner, but humanities partner.

Is this fair, that Christ's work should count for us? Is this justice? No. But then again, we are not talking about fairness or justice any more, we are talking about mercy. Is this mercy? Indeed it is, toward us, while his justice is satisfied by Christ's offering of his own life in our place. Which again isn't fair, and that is why it is called a sacrifice. It wasn't something Christ had to do, it was something he willed to do in order that by his work (a work we ourselves could not do) he might reconcile humanity to God.

So Islam and Christianity ultimately look toward the same end, that God will be merciful In Islam it is in God's nature to not be just but to be mericul. In Christianity we see both -- God's justice is satisfied on the cross, God's mercy is grant to us. Muslims want the mercy without the justice, and God just doesn't work that way is the Christian response.

[vpb]

Here is the problem I see with the first part of your logic.

1) You admit that with justice we go to hell
2) You admit that we cannot reach the lovel of doing good deeds to enter heaven
But then (3) you claim that Allah multiplies our good deeds


My problem is that if in point #2 no amount of good deeds is enough to get us to heaven, then the fact that Allah multiplies them doesn't change anything. It is still true that no amount of good deeds, even an infinite amount is an amount, is enough to get us to heaven. So there is no way to heaven through good deeds.

4) then you add, and also through his mercy we get to heaven.

My comment is that it would seem that one should not say also through his mercy, but only through his mercy, if in fact your previous points were all true.

lollll, you missed a point in here. if you don't try to do good deeds, how are you going to get mercy of Allah? now for multiplying the deeds, the thing is that the more good deeds we do, the more we get closer to Allah swt, the more we fear and love him. So, we do deeds, which Allah swt multiplies them, out of his mercy, so on the day of judgement, we put them in our scale, and if they weight a lot, means that we enter jannah, but here is what I mean by "only with deeds you enter hell", bc if you do good deeds which weight enough to enter Jannah and then say "God owes me jannah, i have done good deeds and he is obligated to put me in Jannah" , than you will enter Hell, so you have to do good deeds a lot (which Allah swt help u by multiplying them), so on the day of judgement you scale weights to enter Jannah, but u also depend on Allah's mercy, bc you can't rebel against Allah with the claim that I have enough deeds to enter Jannah, bc if he doesn't want he won't put u . I don't want to enter in detail bc I am not qualified to give such explanations since this is part of Aqeedah, and is a dangerous topic to define things.
may Allah swt forgive me if I said something wrong.

I know you're behaving like those kids, who try to hit you back the same way :p

[vpb]

let's say someone says to you that if you help him on the coursework, and he is satisfied he will give you 1 milion dollars, but you don't know the amount. Now, the help for the course work is paid too much 1 milion dollars, so basically the reward for the coursework help is very very large. Now you try your best to help on the coursework. If you don't try to help him, you don't get the money, if you try to help him, then we go to the second stage where the person can say "you helped me, but i'm not satisfied" = (he's not being generous), but if he has mercy then he will say "you have tried your best, i've given you instructions how to help me, so I'm gonna be generous and give you 1million pounds". So he gives you instructions (helps you) to achieve the level of staysfying him in coursework help, but even if you satisfy him, it's still up to him to give you the 1 million dollars. and if you don't try to help him, you're not going to get the chance to win 1 million pounds, so you don't get them. So final point is that you try to help him, and at the end he can decide wether he want's to give u the million pounds or not. but you coursework is not that worthy to be paid 1 million pounds, so the guy is trying to be generous, and he doesn't owe you to pay that much for just a coursework.


you have to buy the ticket in order to get the chance to win on lottery. the more tickets you buy the more chance you have to win, but at the end you dont' know wether you're gonna win or not. if you don't buy a ticket u don't get the chance to win.
btw, judgement is not lottery. astagfirullah. i just took an example

[Woodrow]

Peace Gene,
I'm only going to address part of your post. Naturally I picked and selected what I like.

We should retitle this thread, "Views on Atonement for Sin."

Is this fair, that Christ's work should count for us? Is this justice? No. But then again, we are not talking about fairness or justice any more, we are talking about mercy. Is this mercy? Indeed it is, toward us, while his justice is satisfied by Christ's offering of his own life in our place. Which again isn't fair, and that is why it is called a sacrifice. It wasn't something Christ had to do, it was something he willed to do in order that by his work (a work we ourselves could not do) he might reconcile humanity to God.

So Islam and Christianity ultimately look toward the same end, that God will be merciful In Islam it is in God's nature to not be just but to be mericul. In Christianity we see both -- God's justice is satisfied on the cross, God's mercy is grant to us. Muslims want the mercy without the justice, and God just doesn't work that way is the Christian response.

I believe you have summed up our differences quite well except for the last sentence.

Muslims want the mercy without the justice, and God just doesn't work that way is the Christian response.

I don't see that we don't want his justice as we believe his justice is infinitely fair. I will say that none of us want what we have earned as we could never earn our way into heaven. But we do want God(swt) to judge all with perfect justice. Perfect justice is very intangible and does not necessarily equate with equality or our concept of fairness. But part of it has to do with what God(swt) has promised the Believers he will reward us with.

In many ways your and my concepts of God's(swt) Justice and Mercy are very similar.

we both believe God(swt) has provided a means for us to enter Heaven.

we both believe He has sent guidance.

we both believe our sins can be forgiven.

I say he has done and can do that simply by willing it to be.

You believe that he sent his son to die for us to do this.

I am not a scholar and can make errors, but those are my concepts astagfirullah



I also like your title suggestion. I agree that would be a better title for this thread.

[MustafaMc]

As Muslims our view of works and faith is very similar to that for we are aware that works without faith are worthless. We do not believe any person could ever perform enough good works to earn his way into heaven, but we do have faith Allah(swt) will reward us in accordance to his mercy and not in accordance of what we have earned.

Yes, Br. Woodrow and GraceSeeker I agree with what you are saying. This is different from the typical Christian perception that Muslims gain Paradise by trying to "earn" it. We rely upon the mercy of Allah at least as much as Christians do.

[MustafaMc]

If Jesus "ain't gonna help" me, then I am doomed to pay for my own sins for all eternity, and SO ARE YOU!!!!! If HE didn't pay for them, WE have to. It is as simple as that. There is no other remedy.

That is true ONLY if the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that it is an accurate reflection of God's Will for there to be a "blood payment" required to atone for sin. We Muslims believe that Allah can forgive or punish according to His Divine Will. There is nothing (sin) that I can do and not hope for the forgiveness of Allah as long as I repent and don't ascribe partners with Him - which is the unforgivable sin if one dies in that state.

You can't do enough good works to erase any of your sins. They still remain. So, what is your answer to the sin problem? Satan would love for you to think if you work REAL hard and be REAL "good" you will get to heaven. NOT!!! That isn't possible. NONE of us are, or ever will be, good enough to deserve heaven. We are all sinners!! In word, thought, or deed. And probably EVERY DAY, if not every hour. And the longer we live, the more they all mount up. So, how are you ever getting to heaven?

No Muslim will say that he is good enough to deserve Heaven. We ask for forgiveness from Allah and trust that He will in fact forgive us. We believe that Allah's Mercy will be sufficient on that Day.

An hadith in Sahih Muslim Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said: There are one hundred (parts of) mercy of Allah and He has sent down out of these one part of mercy upon the jinn and human beings and the insects and it is because of this (one part) that they love one another, show kindness to one another and even the beast treats its young one with affection, and Allah has reserved ninety-nine parts of mercy with which He would treat His servants on the Day of Resurrection.

By dying while you're killing a bunch of innocent people in some jihad? All the suicide bombers are depending on that; they are staking their eternity on it. What are you staking your eternity on? How "good" you can be? Good luck!!!

Peace

Do you honestly believe that this concept is accepted by any other than the extremists who do horrible things in the name of religion? If so, it shows how little you know about Islam.

I am staking eternity on believing that there is only One God without father, mother, son, daughter, or equal and on striving to follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for how to worship the Creator and how to live my life. I trust that if I approach Allah on Judgement Day without ascribing partners with Him, that He is fully willing and capable of forgiving me and granting me Paradise by His Divine Mercy.

[Phil12123]

So basically we do the best we can, following his guidance sent through messengers, (at this time, the guidance through Muhammed saws), and then we hope we get reward and mercy from Allah and enter Jannah, and at the same time fear from hellfire and make sure we go away from things that lead to hellfire.

So, though you are a sinner, perhaps every minute of every day, as Woodrow would surmise, you hope for Allah's mercy to overlook all those sins and not hold you accountable, i.e., not make you pay for them? Then what about justice? Does Allah's justice cease when his mercy applies?

and as for jihad, there are ways which you earn paradise, if you die in the battlefield, killed by the enemy you go shaheed(martyr), u got any problem with that? you got any problem fighting for your own country and get killed by your enemy (i'm not talking about suicide bombers)???? but the difference between you and us, is that we do Jihad fisabililah, you do jihad fisabili shaitan, bc we both do jihad.

Sorry, you'll have to explain "Jihad fisabililah" and "jihad fisabili" to me.

No, I don't have a problem fighting for my own country and getting killed by an enemy, but THAT will never "earn paradise"!! Again, nothing I do, no good works, ever cancels out my bad works, my sins. And that is absolutely necessary for anyone to enter paradise. Woodrow is correct in saying the suicide bombers are taking a fast trip to hell-fire. Certainly murdering innocent people (itself a grievous sin) does nothing to cancel out all the person's other sins, but simply adds to the sin list. So, NO, there aren't "ways which you earn paradise."

Peace

[vpb]

So, though you are a sinner, perhaps every minute of every day, as Woodrow would surmise, you hope for Allah's mercy to overlook all those sins and not hold you accountable, i.e., not make you pay for them? Then what about justice? Does Allah's justice cease when his mercy applies?

Allah applies the justice when the deeds are put on the scale, which means Allah is just, bc nothing from bad/good is substracted, everything that you have done in your life (even the smaller than the size of atom as it says in the Qur'an)will be shown to you with proof, so this means that Allah swt is just, and he doesn't hide or loose someone's good deeds or bad. It wouldn't be good for you if you and your friend working the same thing, and then people to recognize your friend's work, but to say to u "we don't know that u did anything", so they are being injust for hiding your work wether it is bad or good. So Allah is just on bringing those deeds, and punishing people acording to the level of evil that did, Allah does not punish them more than the they did bad things, but he rewards people who did good, with more than they did goods, see his mercy?. So when you deeds are put on scale, of course they are not worthy to return the goods that Allah has made to you, also to thank Allah, but it shows that you tried to thank Allah in the most possible way that a human can, even his capability is not in the level to return the thanks as much as Allah has bestowed goods on us, cuz you can't count them, so then Allah gives mercy to you.

If you child does something horrible you ground them.
If they do something good, your love increases more, and you give them 10$ as a gift. does that mean that you are being unjust, or you just is ceased bc you are giving your child a gift? of course not.

Sorry, you'll have to explain "Jihad fisabililah" and "jihad fisabili" to me.

No, I don't have a problem fighting for my own country and getting killed by an enemy, but THAT will never "earn paradise"!! Again, nothing I do, no good works, ever cancels out my bad works, my sins. And that is absolutely necessary for anyone to enter paradise. Woodrow is correct in saying the suicide bombers are taking a fast trip to hell-fire. Certainly murdering innocent people (itself a grievous sin) does nothing to cancel out all the person's other sins, but simply adds to the sin list. So, NO, there aren't "ways which you earn paradise."

Jihad fisabililah = Jihad in the way of Allah
Jihad fisabili shaitan = Jihad in the way of the Devil.

Don't mix sucicide bombers with jihad, I'm not talking about them. But as for soldiers who die on battlefield , getting killed from the opposite force , if that soldier had the intention to protect his country or his wealth , and was sincere that it was doing for Allah swt and not show up, then he is granted Jannah. and in every country those who get killed are honored , isn't it? so same thing, in Islam if you get killed, then you get honored by going to Jannah. Also the benifitons that you get. but don't mix this with suicide bombers, i'm not talking about them. I'm talking only what Qur'an and Sunnah speaks about.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

So, how are you ever getting to heaven? By dying while you're killing a bunch of innocent people in some jihad?

Don't be illogical ---pl. Becuase of Hitler or Crusaders , i have any right to put blame on Jesus (p) or Christianity ?

Holy Quran :

Whoever kills a soul, unless for a soul, or for corruption done in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.


And whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely

[Qur'an 5:32]


for salvation , Muslims depend of God's mercy ....what's ur problem with that ?

sure , tell this to Iraqi & Afghan people.

The so-called follwers of Jesus (p) have killed thousands & thousands ( if not million ) innocnet lives there. Only God knows how more to die there :(

[MustafaMc]

Do you really believe you HAVE eternal life, right now, a present possession?

I would not go so far as to say that "I am without a doubt saved," but I believe that my beliefs about God and the Unseen are True and that I am on the Staight Path toward Paradise. However, I don't know what my end will be. I don't know whether I will turn from Islam as I did Christianity over 25 years ago. I don't know if I will die as a Muslim - submitting my will to Allah, but that is my prayer.

Does the Quran really give you that promise?

Yes, many times - to quote a few:

Quran 35:7 Those who disbelieve shall have a terrible punishment, and those who believe and do good deeds shall have forgiveness and a magnificent
reward.

Quran 14:23 Those who believe and do good deeds will be admitted to Paradise, beneath which rivers flow, to live therein forever with the permission of their Rabb, and their greetings therein will be: "Peace!"

You say you can't KNOW this side of Judgment Day that you're going to Heaven. So you don't really KNOW that you HAVE eternal life NOW. You have to wait till Judgment Day to know it. Only then will you KNOW if you believed enough, prayed enough, did enough good works, etc. to go to Heaven. Right?
So you can't have real assurance that you're going to Heaven. You might not have prayed enough, worked enough, etc.

No, only then will I know if Allah will have Mercy on me or not. Believe me, I fear that Day because I know what I deserve. Of course, you don't know my shortcomings as I do.

You know you have to have your sins forgiven or you will never get into Heaven. What are you doing that you think will get them forgiven? What definite promise is there in the Quran that any of your sins will be forgiven, NOW or EVER? Can you really KNOW that any of them are forgiven NOW, or do you have to wait till Judgment Day to know if a particular sin has been forgiven?

I trust that Allah will fulfill His promises.

Quran 3:132-136 Obey Allah and His Rasool so that you may find mercy. Rush towards the forgiveness from your Rabb to a Paradise as vast as the Heavens and the earth which is prepared for the righteous people; they are those who spend generously in the way of Allah, whether they are in prosperity or in adversity, who control their anger and forgive other people for Allah loves such charitable people, who, if they commit an indecency or wrong their own souls, earnestly remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins; for no one can forgive sins except Allah, and those who do not knowingly persist in something wrong which they have done. Such people will be rewarded with forgiveness from their Rabb plus gardens beneath which the rivers flow, to live therein forever. How excellent is the reward for such laborers!

Would you please comment on the meaning of the "Us" and "Our". It would appear that God Himself has associated with Himself others.

I am sorry, but I have no comment. This is a mystery to me as similar terminology is also in the Quran.

Also:

John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Peace

I have no way of knowing that Allah said this as it does not agree with the Quran.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;


an interesting conversation ---pl. enjoy :)


Far Exalted is He Above Having a Son

One day, al-Baqilani - a Muslim Scholar and judge - entered the court of the Roman Emperor while he was among his monks and priests.



al-Baqilani mockingly said to one of the priests:



"How are you? How are your family and children?"



The Roman Emperor exclaimed: "We were told that you are the most articulate among the Muslim scholars and the most knowledgable; don't you know that our priests are deemed above having a wife and children?"



al-Baqilani answered: "How is it that you can't deem Allah above having a wife and children, but you can them? As if they were more sacred than Allah!"



The Roman Emperor was moved by what he heard and from then on felt a great deal of respect for al-Baqilani.




http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...?articleid=130

[Phil12123]

That is true ONLY if the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that it is an accurate reflection of God's Will for there to be a "blood payment" required to atone for sin.

Agreed. But what if it IS true? Do you agree that if that is the case, you are doomed and have no chance of entering Heaven, having rejected the blood payment that Jesus made on your behalf?

We Muslims believe that Allah can forgive or punish according to His Divine Will. There is nothing (sin) that I can do and not hope for the forgiveness of Allah as long as I repent and don't ascribe partners with Him - which is the unforgivable sin if one dies in that state.

No Muslim will say that he is good enough to deserve Heaven. We ask for forgiveness from Allah and trust that He will in fact forgive us. We believe that Allah's Mercy will be sufficient on that Day.

So, you are basically hoping that your repentance and Allah's mercy will cancel out his justice and not hold you accountable to pay for your sins?

Do you honestly believe that this concept is accepted by any other than the extremists who do horrible things in the name of religion? If so, it shows how little you know about Islam.

I was merely using that as an example of what some Muslims are depending on to get them to Heaven. BTW, where do these "extremists" get that idea? Is it not from the Quran? For some reason they are totally convinced of the truth of it, and willing to die for it.

I am staking eternity on believing that there is only One God without father, mother, son, daughter, or equal and on striving to follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for how to worship the Creator and how to live my life. I trust that if I approach Allah on Judgement Day without ascribing partners with Him, that He is fully willing and capable of forgiving me and granting me Paradise by His Divine Mercy.

So, you won't be seeking justice, but strictly mercy. BTW, according to the Bible, the Person you will be standing before at the Judgment will be none other than Jesus Christ:

John 5:22. "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23. "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
[side note: the Greek word for "just as" means "to the same extent as" and is used thusly in Luke 6:31--"And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise" (the so-called "Golden Rule"). So we are to honor the Son just as we honor the Father. Not only is that NOT some unforgiveable sin but it is a command, so NOT doing it is a sin.]

At that point, if you had not made Him your Savior and Lord before getting there, there will be at least two things that will occur:

1. You will bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father:

Philippians 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

2. He will say something to you...

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Peace

[Redeemed]

I would not go so far as to say that "I am without a doubt saved," but I believe that my beliefs about God and the Unseen are True and that I am on the Staight Path toward Paradise. However, I don't know what my end will be. I don't know whether I will turn from Islam as I did Christianity over 25 years ago. I don't know if I will die as a Muslim - submitting my will to Allah, but that is my prayer.

Yes, many times - to quote a few:

Quran 35:7 Those who disbelieve shall have a terrible punishment, and those who believe and do good deeds shall have forgiveness and a magnificent
reward.

Quran 14:23 Those who believe and do good deeds will be admitted to Paradise, beneath which rivers flow, to live therein forever with the permission of their Rabb, and their greetings therein will be: "Peace!"


No, only then will I know if Allah will have Mercy on me or not. Believe me, I fear that Day because I know what I deserve. Of course, you don't know my shortcomings as I do.


I trust that Allah will fulfill His promises.

Quran 3:132-136 Obey Allah and His Rasool so that you may find mercy. Rush towards the forgiveness from your Rabb to a Paradise as vast as the Heavens and the earth which is prepared for the righteous people; they are those who spend generously in the way of Allah, whether they are in prosperity or in adversity, who control their anger and forgive other people for Allah loves such charitable people, who, if they commit an indecency or wrong their own souls, earnestly remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins; for no one can forgive sins except Allah, and those who do not knowingly persist in something wrong which they have done. Such people will be rewarded with forgiveness from their Rabb plus gardens beneath which the rivers flow, to live therein forever. How excellent is the reward for such laborers!

I am sorry, but I have no comment. This is a mystery to me as similar terminology is also in the Quran.


I have no way of knowing that Allah said this as it does not agree with the Quran.

You have no way of knowing. I didn't know you used to be a Christian. I'll be honest with you; I don't understand how you could leave Christianity to be a Muslim. It fries my brain trying to understand this. How could you not have even more doubts as a Muslim than you had as a Christian? Especially when Muhammad had doubted his own revelations, which started the Islam religion. He even thought the source of it was demonic in nature and that he was demon possessed. If he doubted the source of his revelation how much more would or should I? Out of all the great prophets in the Bible never did one wonder about the origins of their revelations. They struggled processing them, but never did they doubt its origins like Muhammad did. What caused or strengthened him to accept that he was authentically hearing from God was his wives. One said he would be a prophet of this nation, and the other wives believed his visions were authentic because of his uncontrolled convulsions. The irony of it is, he received the witness of his spirituality from women (wives) whose spirituality he considered to be half the witness of a man. In fact, he believed it was due to the lack or deficiency of a woman's mind; yet, it was Khadija who confirms his revelations. Furthermore, Muhammad received his first revelation vision during the month of Ramadan; therefore, no one could attack his vision without attacking the holiest of months in the calendar year. One of his most devoted wives was Aishah who he married at six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old. Imagine if she was your daughter. I am getting my info from a book called "Unveiling Islam." It’s an insider’s view at Muslim life and beliefs written by Caner who was a born and raised a devout Muslim. He is now a strong Christian. Paul says, "You did run well. Who has bewitched you?" :-[

[MustafaMc]

GraceSeeker, this was a great post, but I will have to comment on your ending.

So Islam and Christianity ultimately look toward the same end, that God will be merciful In Islam it is in God's nature to not be just but to be mericul.

You lost me on this one. We see Allah as both Just and Merciful, but we also see it as a Judgment Day. Just as a person on trial does not know if he will be found guilty or innocent until the jury returns its verdict, so also the jury is still out as to whether I will be judged with the wheat or the tare.

In Christianity we see both -- God's justice is satisfied on the cross, God's mercy is grant to us. Muslims want the mercy without the justice, and God just doesn't work that way is the Christian response.

Rather we believe there will be plenty of justice dealt out that Day, we just pray to not bear the brunt of Allah's Wrath rather to receive His Mercy. We in fact believe Allah "does work that way" to be willing and able to forgive with a figurative sweep of the hand. If my bad deeds outweigh my good on the Scale of Justice, then I may be forgiven for my sins or I may be punished for them in Hell until that "sin-debt" has been paid. Who can deny the Judgement of Allah? We Muslims believe that if we believe in Allah and associate no partners with Him, that believers that are sent to Hell will eventually be brought out. However, who wants to spend a single millisecond in Hell?

May Allah forgive me if I have mis-spoken.

[Keltoi]

You have no way of knowing. I didn't know you used to be a Christian. I'll be honest with you; I don't understand how you could leave Christianity to be a Muslim. It fries my brain trying to understand this. How could you not have even more doubts as a Muslim than you had as a Christian? Especially when Muhammad had doubted his own revelations, which started the Islam religion. He even thought the source of it by thinking it was demonic in nature and that he was demon possessed. If he doubted the source of his revelation how much more would or should I? Out of all the great prophets in the Bible never did one wonder about the origins of their revelations. They struggled processing them, but never did they doubt its origins like Muhammad did. What caused or strengthened him to accept that he was authentically hearing from God was his wives. One said he would be a prophet of this nation, and the other wives believed his visions were authentic because of his uncontrolled convulsions. The irony of it is, he received the witness of his spirituality from women (wives) whose spirituality he considered to be half the witness of a man. In fact, he believed it was due to the lack or deficiency of a woman's mind; yet, it was Khadija who confirms his revelations. Furthermore, Muhammad received his first revelation vision during the month of Ramadan; therefore, no one could attack his vision without attacking the holiest of months in the calendar year. One of his most devoted wives was Aishah who he married at six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old. Imagine if she was your daughter. I am getting my info from a book called "Unveiling Islam." It’s an insider’s view at Muslim life and beliefs written by Caner who was a born and raised a devout Muslim. He is now a strong Christian. Paul says, "You did run well. Who has bewitched you?" :-[

I find this to be slightly offensive. I realize that some Muslims on this forum post insulting things like this against Christians all the time, but that doesn't mean you should stoop to their level. Taking statements or opinions from an anti-Islam book is no different than when the reverse occurs. As my brother in faith, I hope you keep the high road. Yes, we believe Islam to be a false religion, just as Muslims believe Christianity to be a false religion, but posts like this only add to the combative nature between us. Hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.

[Phil12123]

One day, al-Baqilani - a Muslim Scholar and judge - entered the court of the Roman Emperor while he was among his monks and priests.

al-Baqilani mockingly said to one of the priests:

"How are you? How are your family and children?"

The Roman Emperor exclaimed: "We were told that you are the most articulate among the Muslim scholars and the most knowledgable; don't you know that our priests are deemed above having a wife and children?"

al-Baqilani answered: "How is it that you can't deem Allah above having a wife and children, but you can them? As if they were more sacred than Allah!"

The Roman Emperor was moved by what he heard and from then on felt a great deal of respect for al-Baqilani.

Interesting story but the last Roman emperor was deposed in 476 A.D. long before there were any Muslim Scholars or judges.

Also, no Christian believes God has a wife. Mormons may, but Christians don't. As for children, Jesus is His only begotten Son and all true believers are, spiritually, children of God. If not children of God, people are children of the devil:

John 8:42 Jesus said to them [the religious rulers], "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
43. "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
44. "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
45. "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me."


Peace

[جوري]

Alapia.. I am not going to dignify your post as the only conclusion I can draw is that you are a deeply disturbed and under educated man... but will post this for you, perhaps if you can open your eyes to the laws of your own country, you'd be a little less hysterical about those of others centuries ago. This is U.S 1885

American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen,

Source

[Grace Seeker]

GraceSeeker, this was a great post, but I will have to comment on your ending.You lost me on this one. We see Allah as both Just and Merciful, but we also see it as a Judgment Day. Just as a person on trial does not know if he will be found guilty or innocent until the jury returns its verdict, so also the jury is still out as to whether I will be judged with the wheat or the tare.

Well, as I just mentioned in another post. We Christians have peeked ahead and read the end of the book. That is why we know the outcome even before we are asked to stand trial.

[MustafaMc]

You have no way of knowing. I didn't know you used to be a Christian. I'll be honest with you; I don't understand how you could leave Christianity to be a Muslim. It fries my brain trying to understand this. How could you not have even more doubts as a Muslim than you had as a Christian?

I did not have doubts about Christianity. I became a Muslim when I read the Quran with an open mind to see what it said. Reading the passages in the Quran about Jesus and Mary is what changed my basic belief system in a moment of "inspiration" like a light bulb that turned on within me so that I could discern Truth from error. Believe me, it is no small thing to change one's religion that I did not set out to do. I believe that it comes not but with God's Guidance.

Especially when Muhammad had doubted his own revelations, which started the Islam religion. He even thought the source of it by thinking it was demonic in nature and that he was demon possessed. If he doubted the source of his revelation how much more would or should I? Out of all the great prophets in the Bible never did one wonder about the origins of their revelations. They struggled processing them, but never did they doubt its origins like Muhammad did. What caused or strengthened him to accept that he was authentically hearing from God was his wives. One said he would be a prophet of this nation, and the other wives believed his visions were authentic because of his uncontrolled convulsions. The irony of it is, he received the witness of his spirituality from women (wives) whose spirituality he considered to be half the witness of a man. In fact, he believed it was due to the lack or deficiency of a woman's mind; yet, it was Khadija who confirms his revelations. Furthermore, Muhammad received his first revelation vision during the month of Ramadan; therefore, no one could attack his vision without attacking the holiest of months in the calendar year. One of his most devoted wives was Aishah who he married at six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old. Imagine if she was your daughter. I am getting my info from a book called "Unveiling Islam." It’s an insider’s view at Muslim life and beliefs written by Caner who was a born and raised a devout Muslim. He is now a strong Christian. Paul says, "You did run well. Who has bewitched you?" :-[

I choose not to respond to this attack. Your making fun of me does not offend me - perhaps enduring it will offset a sin or 2 that I have accumulated.

[Redeemed]

GraceSeeker, this was a great post, but I will have to comment on your ending.You lost me on this one. We see Allah as both Just and Merciful, but we also see it as a Judgment Day. Just as a person on trial does not know if he will be found guilty or innocent until the jury returns its verdict, so also the jury is still out as to whether I will be judged with the wheat or the tare.

Rather we believe there will be plenty of justice dealt out that Day, we just pray to not bear the brunt of Allah's Wrath rather to receive His Mercy. We in fact believe Allah "does work that way" to be willing and able to forgive with a figurative sweep of the hand. If my bad deeds outweigh my good on the Scale of Justice, then I may be forgiven for my sins or I may be punished for them in Hell until that "sin-debt" has been paid. Who can deny the Judgement of Allah? We Muslims believe that if we believe in Allah and associate no partners with Him, that believers that are sent to Hell will eventually be brought out. However, who wants to spend a single millisecond in Hell?

May Allah forgive me if I have mis-spoken.

There is no coming out of Hell. Once in there, it is forever. Hell is the absence of God for all eternity. God has provided a beautiful way out not by associating partners to God. He has no partners, but He gave us a way to reconcile us to God through Jesus Christ. If we neglect so great a salvation, how can we escape judgment or even dare to think that God will have mercy when we reject the most precious gift He has to offer us. We can't have God's mercy without Christ; there just simply isn't any. We become guilty of Jesus' blood when we reject Him, and all of God's wrath is on us not just a part all! It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. May God open all our eyes to see as He does in Jesus name I pray.
:cry:

[MustafaMc]

There is no coming out of Hell. Once in there, it is forever. Hell is the absence of God for all eternity. God has provided a beautiful way out not by associating partners to God. He has no partners, but He gave us a way to reconcile us to God through Jesus Christ. If we neglect so great a salvation, how can we escape judgment or even dare to think that God will have mercy when we reject the most precious gift He has to offer us. We can't have God's mercy without Christ; there just simply isn't any. We become guilty of Jesus' blood when we reject Him, and all of God's wrath is on us not just a part all! It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. May God open all our eyes to see as He does in Jesus name I pray.
:cry:

Your post most clearly illustrates how Islam and Christianity are diametrically opposed and how both can't be right. Just as you say there is no salvation outside of accepting Jesus as the Son of God and believing that he died on the cross for our sins, so also do Muslims say there is no salvation in ascribing partners, or sons, or mothers to Allah. I have made my choice and you have made yours. Allah will surely judge between us as to which is on the Staight Path.

Quran 22:17 Surely as for those who are true believers (the Muslims), the Jews, the Sabians, the Christians, the Magians and the ones who commit shirk (polytheists) - Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection; for Allah is a witness over everything.

[Woodrow]

There is no coming out of Hell. Once in there, it is forever. Hell is the absence of God for all eternity. God has provided a beautiful way out not by associating partners to God. He has no partners, but He gave us a way to reconcile us to God through Jesus Christ. If we neglect so great a salvation, how can we escape judgment or even dare to think that God will have mercy when we reject the most precious gift He has to offer us. We can't have God's mercy without Christ; there just simply isn't any. We become guilty of Jesus' blood when we reject Him, and all of God's wrath is on us not just a part all! It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. May God open all our eyes to see as He does in Jesus name I pray.
:cry:

Just a few quick questions:

What was the name of Jesus's(as) wife?

How many Children did Jesus(as) have?

Why did Jesus(as) need to have a mother?

Was Jesus(as) obediant to his Mother?


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What was the name of Jesus's(as) wife?

If you answer none, does that mean being without a wife is a superior form and more God-like?


How many Children did Jesus(as) have?

If you answer none, does that mean He is not the Father as the Father had a son according to Christianity? If he is not also the Father doesn't that divide the trinity into 3 distinct, seperate entities?

Why did Jesus(as) need to have a mother?
Does that mean he is a lesser creation than Adam as Adam had no mother nor father?

Was Jesus(as) obediant to his Mother?
Does that not place Mary into a posistion of superiority over God(swt) if even for the first few years of Jesus's(as) infancy?

[Phil12123]

Allah applies the justice when the deeds are put on the scale, which means Allah is just, bc nothing from bad/good is substracted, everything that you have done in your life (even the smaller than the size of atom as it says in the Qur'an)will be shown to you with proof, so this means that Allah swt is just, and he doesn't hide or loose someone's good deeds or bad. It wouldn't be good for you if you and your friend working the same thing, and then people to recognize your friend's work, but to say to u "we don't know that u did anything", so they are being injust for hiding your work wether it is bad or good. So Allah is just on bringing those deeds, and punishing people acording to the level of evil that did, Allah does not punish them more than the they did bad things, but he rewards people who did good, with more than they did goods, see his mercy?. So when you deeds are put on scale, of course they are not worthy to return the goods that Allah has made to you, also to thank Allah, but it shows that you tried to thank Allah in the most possible way that a human can, even his capability is not in the level to return the thanks as much as Allah has bestowed goods on us, cuz you can't count them, so then Allah gives mercy to you.

The scales of justice may be something we see in this life, in one form or another, but there is nothing of the sort at the Judgment after this life. It doesn't even make logical sense. If heaven is a perfect place (and it has to be if God dwells there), there can be allowed NO sin or sinners in it. Period. One sin---just one single sin---is enough to bar a person from entering. Weighing all my bad deeds against all my "good" deeds is not what is going to occur. The issue is not, do I have more good than bad? If I have ANY bad, I cannot enter. Sin must be forgiven---ALL of it---or it will bar our entrance. The issue is how do I get forgiveness for ALL my bad, NOT how do I accumulate more good than bad?

The Christian teaching is that Christ paid for my bad---ALL of it, past, present, and future---by taking upon Himself all that bad and suffering the judgment of God in my place. That satisfies God's justice. His grace and mercy are then extended to me upon my repentance and faith in that atoning work at the cross, plus with His resurrection. I receive, as a free gift, God's gift of eternal life (paid for in full by Christ). So, justice, mercy, and grace are all satisfied and fulfilled. Now, I might add, once that free gift is received, so that I have eternal life, now and forever, I will want to serve Him and obey Him out of graditude, as opposed to duty in keeping laws and do's and don'ts. So good works follow and flow out of salvation, and there will be a judgment of those works, for rewards, etc. But it is not a matter of scales and weighing those works against bad works. All the bad works are gone, removed, forgiven when I repented and believed. So, I can have assurance here and now, before the judgment, that I have my sins forgiven---all of them---now, and there is then no uncertainty about facing God at the judgment. He judged my sin at the cross when He judged the One bearing my sin. There is no double jeopardy, no double payment; all my sin has been fully paid for. The judgment for me is solely and strictly of my works after salvation, whether they were of eternal value (see 1 Corinth. 3:11-15).

Don't mix sucicide bombers with jihad, I'm not talking about them. But as for soldiers who die on battlefield , getting killed from the opposite force , if that soldier had the intention to protect his country or his wealth, and was sincere that it was doing for Allah swt and not show up, then he is granted Jannah. and in every country those who get killed are honored, isn't it? so same thing, in Islam if you get killed, then you get honored by going to Jannah. Also the benifitons that you get. but don't mix this with suicide bombers, i'm not talking about them. I'm talking only what Qur'an and Sunnah speaks about.

Yes, a person is honored who is killed in a war. That's what our Memorial Day is all about---remembering and honoring those who have fought and died in wars. But their eternal destiny is never determined by their dying in the war in and of itself. There are plenty of atheists (supposedly) that fight and die in wars. They don't go to heaven just because they died in a war. Nor does anyone else. Again, it is a matter of forgiveness, based on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice and resurrection, that determines one's eternal destiny.

Peace

[Redeemed]

Alapia.. I am not going to dignify your post as the only conclusion I can draw is that you are a deeply disturbed and under educated man... but will post this for you, perhaps if you can open your eyes to the laws of your own country, you'd be a little less hysterical about those of others centuries ago. This is U.S 1885


Source

That was only one of the factual observations I made that you addressed, and I'll give you that one; nevertheless, I wouldn't consent to my daughter's hand in marraige at six years old. WOULD YOU? Finally, why am I deeply distrubed? Is because of of my observations or the fact that I could share them. If you are not going to dignify my post, please don't. Muhammad taught that we should be forced to submit to Allah. All my statements can be backed up with the Quran and from other very reputable sources. Just remember one thing the devil pushes one in the direction he wants you to go but the Lord leads his sheep.:omg:

[Phil12123]

Just a few quick questions:

What was the name of Jesus's(as) wife? If you answer none, does that mean being without a wife is a superior form and more God-like?

None. No.

How many Children did Jesus(as) have?

If you answer none, does that mean He is not the Father as the Father had a son according to Christianity? If he is not also the Father doesn't that divide the trinity into 3 distinct, seperate entities?

None. Jesus was not an earthly father to any children since He was not married and He did not father any children out of wedlock.

The Trinity consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all of Whom are of one essence, substance, and nature, namely, Deity. They are the ONE true God. The three are indeed three distinct, separate entities, but together make up the ONE God. They are separate and distinct in the sense that the Son died on the cross, not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world; the Son did not send the Father or the Holy Spirit to be the Savior of the world. The Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and the Son to do His special work, not vice versa. etc., etc. So they are in that sense separate and distinct, but they are the ONE God.

Why did Jesus(as) need to have a mother?
Does that mean he is a lesser creation than Adam as Adam had no mother nor father?

Having a mother was how God made the Word flesh (John 1:14). Presumably He could have used a direct act of creation of Jesus' physical body, as in, "Let there be a physical body" and poof, there would be a man's body the Word could inhabit. But that is not how God did it. NO, to your second question.

Was Jesus(as) obediant to his Mother?
Does that not place Mary into a position of superiority over God(swt) if even for the first few years of Jesus's(as) infancy?

Yes. It placed Jesus' earthly mother in a position of authority over the child and young person and young man, Jesus, for the period He was subject and obedient to her, as any Jewish boy should be to his mother. See Luke 2:51.

Your point?

Peace

[vpb]

Alapiana's posts are the best. I have to admit ;D;D;D

The scales of justice may be something we see in this life, in one form or another, but there is nothing of the sort at the Judgment after this life. It doesn't even make logical sense. If heaven is a perfect place (and it has to be if God dwells there), there can be allowed NO sin or sinners in it. Period. One sin---just one single sin---is enough to bar a person from entering. Weighing all my bad deeds against all my "good" deeds is not what is going to occur. The issue is not, do I have more good than bad? If I have ANY bad, I cannot enter. Sin must be forgiven---ALL of it---or it will bar our entrance. The issue is how do I get forgiveness for ALL my bad, NOT how do I accumulate more good than bad?

helloooooo? :p , are you up to date with the thread, we have been already talking about mercy of Allah swt. The trial on the day of judgment happens before entering heaven., the trial is not held in heaven or hell, but after the trial people go to heaven or hell. and those who recieve Allah's mercy, their sins are forgiven and are cleaned and put in Jannah, since nothing bad can enter Jannah. ,
there can be someone who has more bad deeds that good deeds, but if Allah wants to give mercy to him, he will forgive his sins.
CAUTION: Allah forgives anything but joining partnership with him. if you die in that state you'll enter Hell through the 7 doors.

The Christian teaching is that Christ paid for my bad---ALL of it, past, present, and future---by taking upon Himself all that bad and suffering the judgment of God in my place. That satisfies God's justice. His grace and mercy are then extended to me upon my repentance and faith in that atoning work at the cross, plus with His resurrection. I receive, as a free gift, God's gift of eternal life (paid for in full by Christ). So, justice, mercy, and grace are all satisfied and fulfilled. Now, I might add, once that free gift is received, so that I have eternal life, now and forever, I will want to serve Him and obey Him out of graditude, as opposed to duty in keeping laws and do's and don'ts. So good works follow and flow out of salvation, and there will be a judgment of those works, for rewards, etc. But it is not a matter of scales and weighing those works against bad works. All the bad works are gone, removed, forgiven when I repented and believed. So, I can have assurance here and now, before the judgment, that I have my sins forgiven---all of them---now, and there is then no uncertainty about facing God at the judgment. He judged my sin at the cross when He judged the One bearing my sin. There is no double jeopardy, no double payment; all my sin has been fully paid for. The judgment for me is solely and strictly of my works after salvation, whether they were of eternal value (see 1 Corinth. 3:11-15).

Subhanallah !!!!!. When you say "I am granted paradise", you are telling God "hey, i believed in you, now you have to put me in paradise". This thing about "the gift" one of the biggest tricks of Shaitan, trying to mislead people. There is no such gift, you have to work all your life so you win the Jannah on the afterlife, this life is a test, nothing more. Have you ever seen someone get a BSc+MSc+PhD without ever going to univesity?just recieveing a gift, "heyyy I got a diploma on my post mail". no, you have to study and do exams to get the degrees and in every signel aspect of your life, it's common sense, you work, you get. if you don't work you don't get. there's no such thing as , ops it came.
Jesus Christ did not die for you sins, he didn't even die at all, he will come , and then die as all other prophets. Jesus Christ will be held accountable for himself, not for you. If you are on university, don't ever try to hold on someone else and say "my friend studied, I will get an A on the exam", no, on the day of judgement, everybody will be preoccupied with him/her self. Even Mary will forget Jesus, from being herself occupied. Nobody's gonna help you on day of judgement, this is a trick of Shaitan, and when you die, you'll see that no one is gonna be able to help you. NO JESUS. it's gonna be you, and your deeds, and your belief, and if you joined partnership with Allah, wallahi , you will enter among one of the 7 gates of the hell, cuz Allah doesn't forgive this sin of joining him partnership. and it's going to be too late. don't get tricked by Shaitan. We see in our daily life, everyone is responsible for their own duties, so we are ,for our deeds that we did.

[جوري]

That was only one of the factual observations I made that you addressed

perhaps since none of your other statements are actually factual! I welcome truth when I see and would gladly address it-- but not a drunkard's confabulation!

and I'll give you that one; nevertheless, I wouldn't consent to my daughter's hand in marraige at six years old. WOULD YOU?

What you do or don't do is inconsequential to me. as for my person my honest answer would be--It depends are we speaking 2007 AD or 575 AD? What is the life expectancy, what are the socio-economic conditions, what is the cultural norm? Saida Aisha RA was engaged to another man before her marriage to prophet Mohammed PBUH, her marriage was of her own consent! and was very much the norm for the time! & actually still the norm in certain parts of the world modern day!... the whole concept of " raising the age of consent" is a very modern one as you can see from the afore mentioned source -- but since you turn your face to your own country's laws, here is a little something from the bible you hold so dear

Although we do not follow this dictum, technically speaking, a girl can be betrothed the moment she is born, and married at the age of three (Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 37:1). A boy can betroth and marry at the age of thirteen (Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 43:1).

What is the minimum age of marriage according to Jewish law?
by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg

Our Sages state1 that "it is forbidden for one to marry off his daughter until she is an adult and says 'this is the one I want to marry.'"

It is forbidden for one to marry off his daughter until she is an adult and says 'this is the one I want to marry'! In ancient (and not so ancient) times however, marriage was often-times celebrated at a rather young age. Although we do not follow this dictum, technically speaking, a girl may be betrothed the moment she is born, and married at the age of three.2 A boy may betroth and marry at the age of thirteen.3

Source
Can you have a new T without an old T? Or I should better yet beg the question--are you a hypocrite or hoping the rest of us are all as ill read as you?

Finally, why am I deeply distrubed?

is that a rhetorical question?

Is because of of my observations or the fact that I could share them.

you are not observant , NOR FACTUAL, a little redundant ,with incessant and useless evacuations of compositional diarrhea!...

If you are not going to dignify my post, please don't.

I haven't.. I ignored most of it!

Muhammad taught that we should be forced to submit to Allah.

It is a pleasure to submit oneself to G-D, certainly no one is forced... you are free for instance to enjoy your grand delusions under an Islamic empire!

All my statements can be backed up with the Quran and from other very reputable sources.

really? go ahead and back it up from the Quran! I'd love to read it... in fact I welcome it, I enjoy nothing more than new discoveries from the Quran I read daily and in my mother tongue!

Just remember one thing the devil pushes one in the direction he wants you to go but the Lord leads his sheep.:omg:

Yes.. Indeed I can see how far the "devil" has pushed you-- although I don't think you need help.. you are pretty corrupt on your own volition!

peace!

[vpb]

lol, alpiana when I read your posts it makes me think of the book I read couple of weeks ago "Why trust the bible? " ;D;D;D . You seem to feel very insecure from Islam as the author of that book is. But I can assure you have totally no clue what you're talking about, are you? ;D. lolll

[ummzayd]

The Trinity consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all of Whom are of one essence, substance, and nature, namely, Deity. They are the ONE true God. The three are indeed three distinct, separate entities, but together make up the ONE God. They are separate and distinct in the sense that the Son died on the cross, not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world; the Son did not send the Father or the Holy Spirit to be the Savior of the world. The Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and the Son to do His special work, not vice versa. etc., etc. So they are in that sense separate and distinct, but they are the ONE God.

thanks for clearing that up.

when it gets down to the wire the Christian always falls back on 'it is impossible to understand and must be accepted on faith' and now I know why. I also understand why the Christian expects such a big reward simply for accepting this doctrine 'on faith'. It is quite a feat.

peace to you and God's guidance.

[Philosopher]

This thread has gone fruitless and should be closed.

[Trumble]

This thread has gone fruitless and should be closed.

Agreed. I personally find the stream of comments telling Christians what they believe or should believe when they both obviously don't believe it, and have clearly explained why they don't believe it, both tedious and pointless. It's just repetition of what they consider a 'killer' point by people totally unable to recognise that it is a 'killer' point only to them, and not the folks it is directed at.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

Interesting story but the last Roman emperor was deposed in 476 A.D. long before there were any Muslim Scholars or judges.

Forget about the date but what about moral of the story ?

If Christians believe Priests are above having children , then how come u can believe God has begotten son ?



Keltoi:Yes, we believe Islam to be a false religion, just as Muslims believe Christianity to be a false religion


A little clarification :)

we Muslims respect Christians as ‘’ people of the holy book.’’ We believe that original Bible/ Injeel came to Jesus (p) from God .



We do believe that both Jesus (p) & Mother Mary (p) will be in Paradise Forever….we just don’t worship them as only our Creator deserves to be worshipped without partners.

We believe that no Prophet (pbut ) ever taught about tri-dieties .....they always taught people to worship one God without other dieties/ partner.

[Trumble]

If Christians believe Priests are above having children , then how come u can believe God has begotten son ?

They don't believe that, and you are only really talking about Catholics anyway.

An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord. 1 Corinthians 7:32b–35 NIV

Nothing about being "above" having children, just that doing so necessarily means they have less time to devote to being priests.

[vpb]

thanks for clearing that up.

when it gets down to the wire the Christian always falls back on 'it is impossible to understand and must be accepted on faith' and now I know why. I also understand why the Christian expects such a big reward simply for accepting this doctrine 'on faith'. It is quite a feat.

peace to you and God's guidance.

yep, that's why I said, it's a concept that cannot be explained, so the only way is just accept it .

This thread has gone fruitless and should be closed.

Go have some ice-cream :p

Agreed. I personally find the stream of comments telling Christians what they believe or should believe when they both obviously don't believe it, and have clearly explained why they don't believe it, both tedious and pointless. It's just repetition of what they consider a 'killer' point by people totally unable to recognise that it is a 'killer' point only to them, and not the folks it is directed at.

also you go and have some ice-cream
we are not talking here about killers.

An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord. 1 Corinthians 7:32b–35 NIV

Muhammed saws has already proven that it is possible to be married and dedicate him/her self to the Lord. Even if we go and take a very pious muslim who reached the level of Ikhsaan, he is married and still the only thing he is preoccupied is his Lord, or or or :p let's take Abu Hanifa, he is one of the greatest scholars, who dedicated his life for Allah swt, those who know him know how much he contributed :D, and he was stilled married :)

Sorry :D

[MustafaMc]

The scales of justice may be something we see in this life, in one form or another, but there is nothing of the sort at the Judgment after this life. It doesn't even make logical sense. If heaven is a perfect place (and it has to be if God dwells there), there can be allowed NO sin or sinners in it. Period. One sin---just one single sin---is enough to bar a person from entering. Weighing all my bad deeds against all my "good" deeds is not what is going to occur. The issue is not, do I have more good than bad? If I have ANY bad, I cannot enter. Sin must be forgiven---ALL of it---or it will bar our entrance. The issue is how do I get forgiveness for ALL my bad, NOT how do I accumulate more good than bad?
.....
Again, it is a matter of forgiveness, based on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice and resurrection, that determines one's eternal destiny.

Peace

Christians seem to limit Allah's ability to forgive sin according to their formula that Jesus (pbuh) never taught. I accept Jesus (pbuh) as a prophet of Allah, but outright and completely reject Paul and the other NT authors as prophets of Allah. The very point that you are counting on getting you into Heaven may be the very one that keeps you out and that is the mortal sin of ascribing partners (the human Jesus) with the One God.

[Phil12123]

helloooooo? :p , are you up to date with the thread, we have been already talking about mercy of Allah swt. The trial on the day of judgment happens before entering heaven., the trial is not held in heaven or hell, but after the trial people go to heaven or hell. and those who recieve Allah's mercy, their sins are forgiven and are cleaned and put in Jannah, since nothing bad can enter Jannah. there can be someone who has more bad deeds that good deeds, but if Allah wants to give mercy to him, he will forgive his sins. CAUTION: Allah forgives anything but joining partnership with him. if you die in that state you'll enter Hell through the 7 doors.

Subhanallah !!!!!. When you say "I am granted paradise", you are telling God "hey, i believed in you, now you have to put me in paradise". This thing about "the gift" one of the biggest tricks of Shaitan, trying to mislead people. There is no such gift, you have to work all your life so you win the Jannah on the afterlife, this life is a test, nothing more. Have you ever seen someone get a BSc+MSc+PhD without ever going to univesity?just recieveing a gift, "heyyy I got a diploma on my post mail". no, you have to study and do exams to get the degrees and in every signel aspect of your life, it's common sense, you work, you get. if you don't work you don't get. there's no such thing as , ops it came.
Jesus Christ did not die for you sins, he didn't even die at all, he will come , and then die as all other prophets. Jesus Christ will be held accountable for himself, not for you. If you are on university, don't ever try to hold on someone else and say "my friend studied, I will get an A on the exam", no, on the day of judgement, everybody will be preoccupied with him/her self. Even Mary will forget Jesus, from being herself occupied. Nobody's gonna help you on day of judgement, this is a trick of Shaitan, and when you die, you'll see that no one is gonna be able to help you. NO JESUS. it's gonna be you, and your deeds, and your belief, and if you joined partnership with Allah, wallahi , you will enter among one of the 7 gates of the hell, cuz Allah doesn't forgive this sin of joining him partnership. and it's going to be too late. don't get tricked by Shaitan. We see in our daily life, everyone is responsible for their own duties, so we are ,for our deeds that we did.

You just don't get it, do you? But then you are expressing the Muslim view, so I shouldn't expect you to get the Christian view. From all the posts, both Muslim and Christian, we can conclude that there is agreement on some very clear points:

1. We are all sinners, whether daily or hourly, in word, thought, or deed.

2. Heaven is a perfect place where no sin will ever enter.

3. Without forgiveness of sins, no sinner will ever enter Heaven.

4. No sinner can work enough, or do anything, or be "good" enough, to deserve Heaven.

5. Muslims are hoping in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

6. Christians are relying on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning death for sins, and resurrection, as payment in full for all their sins, in order to receive forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift, here and now and forevermore.

7. The view you have expressed represents the Muslim view that Christ did not die on the cross, let alone for anyone's sins. This view is diametrically and irreconcilably opposed to the Christian Gospel that Christ died for our sins and rose again.

8. According to the Christian view, a person who denies the Deity of Christ will die in his sins (John 8:24,58), and be barred from Heaven.

9. According to the Muslim view, believing Christ is God is associating with Allah, the unforgiveable sin that will bar a person from Heaven.

I think that covers points of agreement. Have I left anything out?

Peace

[MustafaMc]

Agreed. I personally find the stream of comments telling Christians what they believe or should believe when they both obviously don't believe it, and have clearly explained why they don't believe it, both tedious and pointless. It's just repetition of what they consider a 'killer' point by people totally unable to recognise that it is a 'killer' point only to them, and not the folks it is directed at.

I disagree. We are both presenting our views of the Truth in the Comparative Religion section to which I see this thread still fits.

What flavor of ice cream do you like?????

[vpb]

You just don't get it, do you? But then you are expressing the Muslim view, so I shouldn't expect you to get the Christian view. From all the posts, both Muslim and Christian, we can conclude that there is agreement on some very clear points:

1. We are all sinners, whether daily or hourly, in word, thought, or deed.

2. Heaven is a perfect place where no sin will ever enter.

3. Without forgiveness of sins, no sinner will ever enter Heaven.

4. No sinner can work enough, or do anything, or be "good" enough, to deserve Heaven.

5. Muslims are hoping in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

6. Christians are relying on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning death for sins, and resurrection, as payment in full for all their sins, in order to receive forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift, here and now and forevermore.

7. The view you have expressed represents the Muslim view that Christ did not die on the cross, let alone for anyone's sins. This view is diametrically and irreconcilably opposed to the Christian Gospel that Christ died for our sins and rose again.

8. According to the Christian view, a person who denies the Deity of Christ will die in his sins (John 8:24,58), and be barred from Heaven.

9. According to the Muslim view, believing Christ is God is associating with Allah, the unforgiveable sin that will bar a person from Heaven.

I think that covers points of agreement. Have I left anything out?

Peace

i think it's fine except would be could to make this point a little bit more clear

5. Muslims are hoping in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

5.Muslims have to do good deeds as much as possible, but they also depend on Allah's mercy for the forgivness of sins and in getting mercy in general too, so they can enter Heaven , and they don't know wether they go to Heaven or not, till the trial on the day of judgmenet.

[vpb]

anyone correct me, cuz my english still is bad

[Trumble]

:sunny: I disagree. We are both presenting our views of the Truth in the Comparative Religion section to which I see this thread still fits.

What flavor of ice cream do you like?????

Chocolate. But if you said you preferred coffee ice-cream I wouldn't tell you that you must, in fact, actually prefer chocolate ice-cream because you had previously said you prefer prefer chocolate cake to coffee cake!

[Woodrow]

You just don't get it, do you? But then you are expressing the Muslim view, so I shouldn't expect you to get the Christian view. From all the posts, both Muslim and Christian, we can conclude that there is agreement on some very clear points:

1. We are all sinners, whether daily or hourly, in word, thought, or deed.

2. Heaven is a perfect place where no sin will ever enter.

3. Without forgiveness of sins, no sinner will ever enter Heaven.

4. No sinner can work enough, or do anything, or be "good" enough, to deserve Heaven.

5. Muslims are hoping in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

6. Christians are relying on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning death for sins, and resurrection, as payment in full for all their sins, in order to receive forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift, here and now and forevermore.

7. The view you have expressed represents the Muslim view that Christ did not die on the cross, let alone for anyone's sins. This view is diametrically and irreconcilably opposed to the Christian Gospel that Christ died for our sins and rose again.

8. According to the Christian view, a person who denies the Deity of Christ will die in his sins (John 8:24,58), and be barred from Heaven.

9. According to the Muslim view, believing Christ is God is associating with Allah, the unforgiveable sin that will bar a person from Heaven.

I think that covers points of agreement. Have I left anything out?

Peace

Excellent Phil, that is a great summary. I believe your points 8 & 9 give a full explanation as to why we can not agree. In accordance with the Bible point 8 is true. In accordance with the Qur'an point 9 is true.

I firmly believe the Qur'an is the truth and that for me to follow Christianity would be the path to Hellfire. I know I can no more convince you the Qur'an is the truth, than you can convince me that the Bible is true. All I can do is Thank Allah(swt) that I was lead away from the Bible and to the Qur'an. I know you are probably Thanking God(swt) that you have the Bible.

There can be no mutual acceptance over the Trinity. The best we can do as Muslims and Christians is disagree in peace.

[vpb]

Agreed. I personally find the stream of comments telling Christians what they believe or should believe when they both obviously don't believe it, and have clearly explained why they don't believe it, both tedious and pointless. It's just repetition of what they consider a 'killer' point by people totally unable to recognise that it is a 'killer' point only to them, and not the folks it is directed at.

Chocolate. But if you said you preferred coffee ice-cream I wouldn't tell you that you must, in fact, actually prefer chocolate ice-cream because you had previously said you prefer prefer chocolate cake to coffee cake!

Agreed. I personally find the stream of comments telling Others what flavor of ice-cream they like or they must like when they obviously don't like it, and have clearly explained why they don't like it, both tedious and pointless. It's just repetition of what they consider a 'killer' point by people totally unable to recognise that it is a 'killer' point only to them, and not the folks it is directed at.

So this thread is not about talking for the flavors of ice cream we like. So I think the thread should be closed

;D;D;D

[Grace Seeker]

When you say "I am granted paradise", you are telling God "hey, i believed in you, now you have to put me in paradise". This thing about "the gift" one of the biggest tricks of Shaitan, trying to mislead people. There is no such gift, you have to work all your life so you win the Jannah on the afterlife, this life is a test, nothing more. Have you ever seen someone get a BSc+MSc+PhD without ever going to univesity?just recieveing a gift, "heyyy I got a diploma on my post mail". no, you have to study and do exams to get the degrees and in every signel aspect of your life, it's common sense, you work, you get. if you don't work you don't get. there's no such thing as , ops it came.

One of the differences between the Christian and the Muslim understanding of salvation is found in the word redemption. I am not sure, it may be that Muslims also use this word, but for Christians it has to do with being restored back to something that we understand we have all lost. As Muslims do not believe in original sin or inherited depravity, there is no need for redemption in the Christian understanding of that term. However, for the Christian, it is this redemptive process, not the passing of a test, that "earns" us salvation. And redemption is not something that we can do for ourselves, that is why we need Christ's atonement to do for us what none of us can do for ourselves.

There is one other reason that the analogy of passing a test to earn a degree does not connect with Christians. We understand that in being redeemed that we are adopted into God's family.

In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will. (Ephesians 1:5)

Romans 8
13 If you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ....
23b ...we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved.

While it is true that to get a degree one needs to study and pass a test. And if being admitted to Jannah is like being admitted to the Bar to practice law, then this is a good analogy. But if being admitted to heaven is like being claimed as a member of God's family, then it has no relevance, for parents don't ask their children to do anything to become their children. They are automatically children by being born into it, or in other cases adopted into it. In the case of adoption, the judge makes that decision and it is done, no tests to pass, you just are. (And as regards the law of adoption, I speak from personal family knowledge.)



So, as on many other things, our views as to what we even mean by salvation, though we both use the same word, change the way we view what is and is not reasonable with regard to the process. For Muslims a test seems to be obligatory. For Christians a test would be anathema.

[Redeemed]

Peace Phil,

You just typed a very key sentence.



That is very true, If Isa(as) had died on the cross for our sins.


We do not believe Isa(as) has died an earthy death and was taken up to Allah(swt) and will return to live the remainder of his earthly life during which he will destroy the anti-Christ.

Why is it you don't believe He died and rose when His death was witnessed even by a centurion who said "Truly this was the Son of God?" Moreover, his resurrection was witnessed and the disciples saw Jesus caught up to heaven. This is very significant statement. All of Christendom is leaning on this being true.

[vpb]

I am not attacking any person's character on this forum like mine is being attacked (everyone knows who’s doing that).

are u talking about me? it's not a big deal if you mention the name, I don't mind.

since Christ did not die for any of His own; He had none.

when you say 'He had none' , it means that Jesus a.s was tempted by evil (commiting sins), but he didn't. So therefore he had none. now, how can God be tempted from evil/sins????? you cannot say about God that he has no sins, bc there are is no 'sin' terminology for God, that terminology works only for us, humans. but anyways :)

cheers guys. I need to relax now cuz i just finished my exams :D mmMM what a relief

[Grace Seeker]

when you say 'He had none' , it means that Jesus a.s was tempted by evil (commiting sins), but he didn't. So therefore he had none. now, how can God be tempted from evil/sins????? you cannot say about God that he has no sins, bc there are is no 'sin' terminology for God, that terminology works only for us, humans. but anyways :)

I disagree with your suggestion that one cannot "tempt" God. Deuteronomy 6:16 is rendered in various translations:

Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. -- KJV
Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah. -- NIV
Ye do not try Jehovah your God as ye tried in Massah -- Young's
You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested Him at Massah. -- NASB
Ye shall not tempt Jehovah your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. -- ASV



The key is to understand what it means "to tempt". An oft mistaken notion is that to be tempted is itself is tantamount to sin. In reality temptation says absolutely nothing about the moral character of the one being tempted, good or bad. It means simply that another is attempting to put one to a test.

Can we put God to a test? Well, we shouldn't. But we can try. Trying doesn't mean that God actually experiences the sensation of being tested. Was Jesus tested in the wilderness by the devil? Well, again, the devil tried, but we don't see any signs that Jesus actually felt any experience of being tested by the devil. I think Jesus felt tested more by the physical aspects of fasting than by the devil's attempts at testing him.

cheers guys. I need to relax now cuz i just finished my exams :D mmMM what a relief

Well, it sounds like you've been through your own time of testing. Congratulations on coming through it. May your results be the ones you are looking for.

[Redeemed]

Go ahead and bring us your evidence from the Quran then. I see no greater accommodation than this!

The first revelation shows he was not sure it was from God or some other spiritual source. He admits that he is just basically an open channel. I repeat he is not sure who is working through him. He says: "I am not an innovation among messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear" (surah 46:9) I don't think anything bad about the prophet for this. I think his concerns were wise ones. He was afraid of his revelation source. No offense intended, but I think he had very good cause to doubt the source. His heart beat severally he went to Khadija saying: "Cover me, cover me!" After being covered his fears subsided and he said "I fear something may happen to me." She replied, "Never! By Allah..." (hadith1.1.3) She basically was telling him what to believe and encouraging him to continue good works and he would be fine. It looks to me that she had some power of influence over the way he viewed his first revelation. This is the irony, Islamic theology appears to assert that woman are intellectually inferior to men (I do not believe this to be true) One hadith explains, "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes,' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'" As I had mentioned, it was Khadija that confirms his revelation. That makes me wonder, who was in control? Muhammad doubted his revelation, and since it is on the holiest month on the Islamic calendar, Waraqa told Muhammad they would call him a liar; they will persecute thee; they will banish thee, and they will fight against thee. It seems like that was enough to stop the prophet from doubting his revelation. It is written in many reliable documents that Muhammad doubted the source of his revelations as well, and it seems like the only ones that deny this are Muslims. No prophet in the Bible ever doubted the source of revelation; they may have wonder how God was going to bring a thing to pass. I don’t think it is fair of you to attack my person when the purpose of this post is comparative religion. Moreover, we have been discussing the reliability between The Bible and the Qur’an. I think this documentation is important in determining spiritual validity between the two Books and consistent with determining where the lie lies. We Christians and you Muslims both believe the other is wrong. Why do you insult me when I AM SINCERELY TRYING TO GET YOU TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS JUST AS YOU ARE DOING AMONG CHRISTIANS? We can attack the belief, but we shouldn’t attack the believer as you have done with me.
peace:)
You are loved

[Redeemed]

The date is important, as it clearly shows the story was an invention and not a true event.

In truth, only some Christians believe that priests should not have children, and no Christians believe that priests are above having children. The reason that those who do not have children have chosen not to is for other reasons than the story implies.

I don't believe priest are above having children because all of us Christians are kings and priests unto the Lord, and many of us have children. You might be thinking of Catholic priest.

[vpb]

Can we put God to a test? Well, we shouldn't. But we can try. Trying doesn't mean that God actually experiences the sensation of being tested. Was Jesus tested in the wilderness by the devil? Well, again, the devil tried, but we don't see any signs that Jesus actually felt any experience of being tested by the devil. I think Jesus felt tested more by the physical aspects of fasting than by the devil's attempts at testing him.

i;m sorry to say but with this you are put Jesus so low, even that you believe he is God. Devil does not even try to do anything to God, bc God has power over all things, also over the devil, cuz God created him. God is not tempted or tested in any form. you can't test God, but God can test you. but I dont see anything to discuss further bc we percieve God in different ways.

Well, it sounds like you've been through your own time of testing. Congratulations on coming through it. May your results be the ones you are looking for.

thanks :)

The first revelation shows he was not sure it was from God or some other spiritual source. He admits that he is just basically an open channel. I repeat he is not sure who is working through him. He says: "I am not an innovation among messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear" (surah 46:9) I don't think anything bad about the prophet for this. I think his concerns were wise ones. He was afraid of his revelation source. No offense intended, but I think he had very good cause to doubt the source. His heart beat severally he went to Khadija saying: "Cover me, cover me!" After being covered his fears subsided and he said "I fear something may happen to me." She replied, "Never! By Allah..." (hadith1.1.3) She basically was telling him what to believe and encouraging him to continue good works and he would be fine. It looks to me that she had some power of influence over the way he viewed his first revelation. This is the irony, Islamic theology appears to assert that woman are intellectually inferior to men (I do not believe this to be true) One hadith explains, "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes,' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'" As I had mentioned, it was Khadija that confirms his revelation. That makes me wonder, who was in control?

Of course he run away, and of course he was suprised, it was the first time we was seeing something he never saw before. and of course he run to Khadija, cuz she was his wife, where do u think he was supposed to go? and as for proving that he really recieved a revelation, not Khadija but many many other sahabas have witnessed it, but it seems you read a book and now you think you know everything and try to point things. One example is when the foot of the Prophet saws was laying on the body of a sahaba, and when the Prophet started reciving some verses, his foot became very heavy, so that it was going to break the sahaba's bone where the Prophet's foot was laying. and the revelation didn't happen just that night but it happened for 23 years. so lot of people witnessed it. and concerning women, it's not that women are inferior, it's just that their memory is not the same as the men's memory, and we know this everyday life, usually women are smarter on manipulating, while men are not as good as women, but women forget more than man do. what's wrong with this? both genders have their own problems. just please don't be like those people who read a book on shariah and then come up on tv and say "i'm an expert on shariah" . you're not saying you are an expert but the statements that you are making look like u discovered something, things like this people claimed long time before you, but no luck, cuz things are already proved. just please read more about Quran and it's revelation and they will clear your doubts :)

[Grace Seeker]

I don't believe priest are above having children because all of us Christians are kings and priests unto the Lord, and many of us have children. You might be thinking of Catholic priest.

Alapiana, what did I say?


"Only some Christians believe that priests ......"


Yes, those who think that way are indeed Catholics. I.e. "Only some Christians (i.e. and these would be those who are Catholics, but not even all Catholics) believe ....."

The suggestion provided by Muslim Woman was incorrect because it was made as a categorical universal statement. I corrected it by noting examples where there were those who held different than she had been told about. But I tried to respect that she might also be aware of some who had those views that I was not aware. I felt this fair, as I am not omniscient, and am aware that in a world as large as ours, that all manner of ideas are presented out there, and she living in a different part of the world than me, might well have run into some things that I was not aware of.

But I don't understand what you are trying to correct me on? Clearly I said, "only some". Do you mean to imply that my statement is wrong because I said some Christians and you don't consider Catholics to be Christian?

[vpb]

see the narrators,

Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2: Narrated 'Aisha:
(the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ' off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).

Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
Narrated 'Aisha:
(the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read.
The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."
Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran):
'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."







Volume 1, Book 1, Number 4:
Narrated Said bin Jubair:
Ibn 'Abbas in the explanation of the Statement of Allah. 'Move not your tongue concerning (the Quran) to make haste therewith." (75.16) Said "Allah's Apostle used to bear the revelation with great trouble and used to move his lips (quickly) with the Inspiration." Ibn 'Abbas moved his lips saying, "I am moving my lips in front of you as Allah's Apostle used to move his." Said moved his lips saying: "I am moving my lips, as I saw Ibn 'Abbas moving his." Ibn 'Abbas added, "So Allah revealed 'Move not your tongue concerning (the Qur'an) to make haste therewith. It is for us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad) the ability to recite it (the Qur'an) (75.16-17) which means that Allah will make him (the Prophet ) remember the portion of the Qur'an which was revealed at that time by heart and recite it. The Statement of Allah: And 'When we have recited it to you (O Muhammad through Gabriel) then you follow its (Qur'an) recital' (75.18) means 'listen to it and be silent.' Then it is for Us (Allah) to make It clear to you' (75.19) means 'Then it is (for Allah) to make you recite it (and its meaning will be clear by itself through your tongue). Afterwards, Allah's Apostle used to listen to Gabriel whenever he came and after his departure he used to recite it as Gabriel had recited it."




Volume 1, Book 1, Number 5:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
Allah's Apostle was the most generous of all the people, and he used to reach the peak in generosity in the month of Ramadan when Gabriel met him. Gabriel used to meet him every night of Ramadan to teach him the Qur'an. Allah's Apostle was the most generous person, even more generous than the strong uncontrollable wind (in readiness and haste to do charitable deeds).




Volume 1, Book 1, Number 6:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:
Abu Sufyan bin Harb informed me that Heraclius had sent a messenger to him while he had been accompanying a caravan from Quraish. They were merchants doing business in Sham (Syria, Palestine, Lebanon and Jordan), at the time when Allah's Apostle had truce with Abu Sufyan and Quraish infidels. So Abu Sufyan and his companions went to Heraclius at Ilya (Jerusalem). Heraclius called them in the court and he had all the senior Roman dignitaries around him. He called for his translator who, translating Heraclius's question said to them, "Who amongst you is closely related to that man who claims to be a Prophet?" Abu Sufyan replied, "I am the nearest relative to him (amongst the group)."
Heraclius said, "Bring him (Abu Sufyan) close to me and make his companions stand behind him." Abu Sufyan added, Heraclius told his translator to tell my companions that he wanted to put some questions to me regarding that man (The Prophet) and that if I told a lie they (my companions) should contradict me." Abu Sufyan added, "By Allah! Had I not been afraid of my companions labeling me a liar, I would not have spoken the truth about the Prophet. The first question he asked me about him was:
'What is his family status amongst you?'
I replied, 'He belongs to a good (noble) family amongst us.'
Heraclius further asked, 'Has anybody amongst you ever claimed the same (i.e. to be a Prophet) before him?'
I replied, 'No.'
He said, 'Was anybody amongst his ancestors a king?'
I replied, 'No.'
Heraclius asked, 'Do the nobles or the poor follow him?'
I replied, 'It is the poor who follow him.'
He said, 'Are his followers increasing decreasing (day by day)?'
I replied, 'They are increasing.'
He then asked, 'Does anybody amongst those who embrace his religion become displeased and renounce the religion afterwards?'
I replied, 'No.'
Heraclius said, 'Have you ever accused him of telling lies before his claim (to be a Prophet)?'
I replied, 'No. '
Heraclius said, 'Does he break his promises?'
I replied, 'No. We are at truce with him but we do not know what he will do in it.' I could not find opportunity to say anything against him except that.
Heraclius asked, 'Have you ever had a war with him?'
I replied, 'Yes.'
Then he said, 'What was the outcome of the battles?'
I replied, 'Sometimes he was victorious and sometimes we.'
Heraclius said, 'What does he order you to do?'
I said, 'He tells us to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship anything along with Him, and to renounce all that our ancestors had said. He orders us to pray, to speak the truth, to be chaste and to keep good relations with our Kith and kin.'
Heraclius asked the translator to convey to me the following, I asked you about his family and your reply was that he belonged to a very noble family. In fact all the Apostles come from noble families amongst their respective peoples. I questioned you whether anybody else amongst you claimed such a thing, your reply was in the negative. If the answer had been in the affirmative, I would have thought that this man was following the previous man's statement. Then I asked you whether anyone of his ancestors was a king. Your reply was in the negative, and if it had been in the affirmative, I would have thought that this man wanted to take back his ancestral kingdom.
I further asked whether he was ever accused of telling lies before he said what he said, and your reply was in the negative. So I wondered how a person who does not tell a lie about others could ever tell a lie about Allah. I, then asked you whether the rich people followed him or the poor. You replied that it was the poor who followed him. And in fact all the Apostle have been followed by this very class of people. Then I asked you whether his followers were increasing or decreasing. You replied that they were increasing, and in fact this is the way of true faith, till it is complete in all respects. I further asked you whether there was anybody, who, after embracing his religion, became displeased and discarded his religion. Your reply was in the negative, and in fact this is (the sign of) true faith, when its delight enters the hearts and mixes with them completely. I asked you whether he had ever betrayed. You replied in the negative and likewise the Apostles never betray. Then I asked you what he ordered you to do. You replied that he ordered you to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship any thing along with Him and forbade you to worship idols and ordered you to pray, to speak the truth and to be chaste. If what you have said is true, he will very soon occupy this place underneath my feet and I knew it (from the scriptures) that he was going to appear but I did not know that he would be from you, and if I could reach him definitely, I would go immediately to meet him and if I were with him, I would certainly wash his feet.' Heraclius then asked for the letter addressed by Allah's Apostle
which was delivered by Dihya to the Governor of Busra, who forwarded it to Heraclius to read. The contents of the letter were as follows: "In the name of Allah the Beneficent, the Merciful (This letter is) from Muhammad the slave of Allah and His Apostle to Heraclius the ruler of Byzantine. Peace be upon him, who follows the right path. Furthermore I invite you to Islam, and if you become a Muslim you will be safe, and Allah will double your reward, and if you reject this invitation of Islam you will be committing a sin by misguiding your Arisiyin (peasants). (And I recite to you Allah's Statement:)
'O people of the scripture! Come to a word common to you and us that we worship none but Allah and that we associate nothing in worship with Him, and that none of us shall take others as Lords beside Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: Bear witness that we are Muslims (those who have surrendered to Allah).' (3:64).
Abu Sufyan then added, "When Heraclius had finished his speech and had read the letter, there was a great hue and cry in the Royal Court. So we were turned out of the court. I told my companions that the question of Ibn-Abi-Kabsha) (the Prophet Muhammad) has become so prominent that even the King of Bani Al-Asfar (Byzantine) is afraid of him. Then I started to become sure that he (the Prophet) would be the conqueror in the near future till I embraced Islam (i.e. Allah guided me to it)."
The sub narrator adds, "Ibn An-Natur was the Governor of llya' (Jerusalem) and Heraclius was the head of the Christians of Sham. Ibn An-Natur narrates that once while Heraclius was visiting ilya' (Jerusalem), he got up in the morning with a sad mood. Some of his priests asked him why he was in that mood? Heraclius was a foreteller and an astrologer. He replied, 'At night when I looked at the stars, I saw that the leader of those who practice circumcision had appeared (become the conqueror). Who are they who practice circumcision?' The people replied, 'Except the Jews nobody practices circumcision, so you should not be afraid of them (Jews).
'Just Issue orders to kill every Jew present in the country.'
While they were discussing it, a messenger sent by the king of Ghassan to convey the news of Allah's Apostle to Heraclius was brought in. Having heard the news, he (Heraclius) ordered the people to go and see whether the messenger of Ghassan was circumcised. The people, after seeing him, told Heraclius that he was circumcised. Heraclius then asked him about the Arabs. The messenger replied, 'Arabs also practice circumcision.'
(After hearing that) Heraclius remarked that sovereignty of the 'Arabs had appeared. Heraclius then wrote a letter to his friend in Rome who was as good as Heraclius in knowledge. Heraclius then left for Homs. (a town in Syrian and stayed there till he received the reply of his letter from his friend who agreed with him in his opinion about the emergence of the Prophet and the fact that he was a Prophet. On that Heraclius invited all the heads of the Byzantines to assemble in his palace at Homs. When they assembled, he ordered that all the doors of his palace be closed. Then he came out and said, 'O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give a pledge of allegiance to this Prophet (i.e. embrace Islam).'
(On hearing the views of Heraclius) the people ran towards the gates of the palace like onagers but found the doors closed. Heraclius realized their hatred towards Islam and when he lost the hope of their embracing Islam, he ordered that they should be brought back in audience.
(When they returned) he said, 'What already said was just to test the strength of your conviction and I have seen it.' The people prostrated before him and became pleased with him, and this was the end of Heraclius's story (in connection with his faith).

[vpb]

Please be patient and read it all, so then we continue our discussion. :)

btw, since I took the hadiths from a summarized sahih bukhari, the hadiths are put only once, since it is the summarized version, but if we check the full version of sahih bukhari, probably 4-5 people would be narrating the same hadith. and most of narrators are men, apart from Aisha.

[جوري]

The first revelation shows he was not sure it was from God or some other spiritual source.

go ahead show me where it says that in the Quran, since that is where you first mentioned was your source and all the evidence that we refuse to admit to!

He admits that he is just basically an open channel. I repeat he is not sure who is working through him. He says: "I am not an innovation among messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear" (surah 46:9) I don't think anything bad about the prophet for this.

So exactly what is your point with this? was Mary not an open Channel? if we are to go by your logic, the only explanation would be there is no such thing as a virgin birth! That is what a miracle is by definition " an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment"-- each messenger had a gift, Joseph had the gift of dreams, Solomon had power unsurpassed, Jesus had the gift to heal, prophet Mohammed PBUH had the gift of words, what is your point?

I think his concerns were wise ones. He was afraid of his revelation source.

really do tell.. I think thee is wisdom in Jews by the same token not believing that there is such a thing as a "miracle birth"

No offense intended

None taken, I am not sure where what you wish to instigate an offense by or what emotion your hoping to evoke with this none sense?

but I think he had very good cause to doubt the source

.
oh why is that? the same as we should have doubted Mary's virgin birth?

His heart beat severally he went to Khadija saying: "Cover me, cover me!" After being covered his fears subsided and he said "I fear something may happen to me." She replied, "Never! By Allah..." (hadith1.1.3) She basically was telling him what to believe and encouraging him to continue good works and he would be fine.

So? that was an extraordinary event, undoubtedly the same as the annunciation of Christ by the Angel Gabriel to Mary!

It looks to me that she had some power of influence over the way he viewed his first revelation.

Ahahaha, under what psychological assessment do you make this point? were you there?

This is the irony, Islamic theology appears to assert that woman are intellectually inferior to men

There is nothing in Islam to state that we are intellectually inferior we are given highest status amongst all women. Let's contrast to the bible shall we? have a look at this though from your bible.. think women would get a kick out of it

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.

1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing

1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."

(I do not believe this to be true)

It is too bad because above in your bible it tells women off, and you appear oh so devoted, I thought you'd be the sort to really get a kick out of subjugating women!

One hadith explains, "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes,' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'" As I had mentioned, it was Khadija that confirms his revelation. That makes me wonder, who was in control?

Your mention isn't worth jack... Here is the portion that deals with why there needs to be two witnesses of women, said in the most beautiful of words in the noble Quran... certainly nothing along your biblical lines above... BTW for what it is worth, I think it is a far better system than your corrupt one of 12 juries. I can get into that a little later, I don't wish to digress from topic!

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا تَدَايَنتُم بِدَيْنٍ إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى فَاكْتُبُوهُ وَلْيَكْتُب بَّيْنَكُمْ كَاتِبٌ بِالْعَدْلِ وَلاَ يَأْبَ كَاتِبٌ أَنْ يَكْتُبَ كَمَا عَلَّمَهُ اللّهُ فَلْيَكْتُبْ وَلْيُمْلِلِ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ وَلْيَتَّقِ اللّهَ رَبَّهُ وَلاَ يَبْخَسْ مِنْهُ شَيْئًا فَإن كَانَ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ سَفِيهًا أَوْ ضَعِيفًا أَوْ لاَ يَسْتَطِيعُ أَن يُمِلَّ هُوَ فَلْيُمْلِلْ وَلِيُّهُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ شَهِيدَيْنِ من رِّجَالِكُمْ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّن تَرْضَوْنَ مِنَ الشُّهَدَاء أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الأُخْرَى وَلاَ يَأْبَ الشُّهَدَاء إِذَا مَا دُعُواْ وَلاَ تَسْأَمُوْاْ أَن تَكْتُبُوْهُ صَغِيرًا أَو كَبِيرًا إِلَى أَجَلِهِ ذَلِكُمْ أَقْسَطُ عِندَ اللّهِ وَأَقْومُ لِلشَّهَادَةِ وَأَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَرْتَابُواْ إِلاَّ أَن تَكُونَ تِجَارَةً حَاضِرَةً تُدِيرُونَهَا بَيْنَكُمْ فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ أَلاَّ تَكْتُبُوهَا وَأَشْهِدُوْاْ إِذَا تَبَايَعْتُمْ وَلاَ يُضَآرَّ كَاتِبٌ وَلاَ شَهِيدٌ وَإِن تَفْعَلُواْ فَإِنَّهُ فُسُوقٌ بِكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ {282}

[Pickthal 2:282] O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you in (terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember.

nothing about being a half wit, but does describe the emotional nature of women in very eloquent tongue!

Muhammad doubted his revelation, and since it is on the holiest month on the Islamic calendar

what does that mean? how do you even this to be true? if Ramadan didn't come about until Islam as a whole was established? do you make up stuff as you go along? do you honestly expect us to buy this?

Waraqa told Muhammad they would call him a liar; they will persecute thee; they will banish thee, and they will fight against thee.

Do you even know who waraqa was?
again what is your point? that was the case of the people, they slaughtered their messengers, Ad; Tahmud etc etc before prophet Mohammed PBUH, they were refractory and ungrateful as you are now

It seems like that was enough to stop the prophet from doubting his revelation.

lol, I know that is your wish, But Allah motim noorih wlaw karha alakeroon!

It is written in many reliable documents that Muhammad doubted the source of his revelations as well,

Mecamylamine is making a come back for this sort of tick...are you going to repeat yourself every two sentences? what sort of Aphasia is this?

and it seems like the only ones that deny this are Muslims.

deny what exactly?

No prophet in the Bible ever doubted the source of revelation;

you might as well be the author of the bible, it means nothing to me all the adding and subtracting, I believe Abraham the father of all monotheism had a lot of doubt, he even asked G-D to prove to him he can raise the dead, G-D asked him, do you not believe, he said-- yes, but so my heart would be at peace! so what do you know, I can name many examples. But don't want to take an effort to respond to you, since you never learn! or even want to learn! You are very insincere.

they may have wonder how God was going to bring a thing to pass.

again I am not sure what you mean by this?

I don’t think it is fair of you to attack my person when the purpose of this post is comparative religion.

I attack you because you seem to want to impress upon us how under educated you are, with the same rhetoric in every post. we are not buying!

Moreover, we have been discussing the reliability between The Bible and the Qur’an.

ok

I think this documentation is important in determining spiritual validity between the two Books and consistent with determining where the lie lies.

I think it is visible to the naked eye where the "lies lie"

We Christians and you Muslims both believe the other is wrong.

we believe you to be misguided (those who have gone astray!)

Why do you insult me when I AM SINCERELY TRYING TO GET YOU TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS JUST AS YOU ARE DOING AMONG CHRISTIANS?[/QUOTE]
lol..you are just comical now. You want to take me on, do some real research like Dr. Gary miller, and then come have a real dialogue!

We can attack the belief, but we shouldn't attack the believer as you have done with me.

Ok deal. I believe you to be a pagan no different than someone who would worship Zeus and believe Hercules was his son.. just substitute G-D the father, Jesus, and hear for Mary or whatever mortal woman he was with, and you are all set.

peace:)

And to you!

You are loved

I know I am loved!
in closure please state your purpose here, if you think you are going to bring anyone back to the "light", then let me be the first to let you know how delusional you are-- you'll have better luck converting us to Jews than to Christians! At least we won't have to devolve into mythology with Judaism.

[Woodrow]

Why do you insult me when I AM SINCERELY TRYING TO GET YOU TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS JUST AS YOU ARE DOING AMONG CHRISTIANS? We can attack the belief, but we shouldn’t attack the believer as you have done with me.
peace:)
You are loved

I'm going to attempt to reduce this into managable segments and respond to each as best as I can.

The first revelation shows he was not sure it was from God or some other spiritual source. He admits that he is just basically an open channel. I repeat he is not sure who is working through him. He says: "I am not an innovation among messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear" (surah 46:9)

I fail to see where that statement is any indication of doubt. Especially when taken in it's entirety.

46: 1. Ha Mim. P Y C
46: 2. The revelation of the Book is from Allah, the Mighty, the Wise. P Y C
46: 3. We did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them two save with truth and (for) an appointed term; and those who disbelieve turn aside from what they are warned of. P Y C

46: 4. Say: Have you considered what you call upon besides Allah? Show me what they have created of the earth, or have they a share in the heavens? Bring me a book before this or traces of knowledge, if you are truthful. P Y C
46: 5. And who is in greater error than he who calls besides Allah upon those that will not answer him till the day of resurrection and they are heedless of their call? P Y C

46: 6. And when men are gathered together they shall be their enemies, and shall be deniers of their worshipping (them). P Y
46: 7. And when Our clear communications are recited to them, those who disbelieve say with regard to the truth when it comes to them: This is clear magic. P Y C
46: 8. Nay! they say: He has forged it. Say: If I have forged it, you do not control anything for me from Allah; He knows best what you utter concerning it; He is enough as a witness between me and you, and He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. P Y C

46: 9. Say: I am not the first of the messengers, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner. P Y C
46:10. Say: Have you considered if it is from Allah, and you disbelieve in it, and a witness from among the children of Israel has borne witness of one like it, so he believed, while you are big with pride; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. P Y C

46:11. And those who disbelieve say concerning those who believe: If it had been a good, they would not have gone ahead of us therein. And as they do not seek to be rightly directed thereby, they say: It is an old lie. P
Y C
46:12. And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good. P Y C

46:13. Surely those who say, Our Lord is Allah, then they continue on the right way, they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. P Y C
46:14. These are the dwellers of the garden, abiding therein: a reward for what they did. P Y
46:15. And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents; with trouble did his mother bear him and with trouble did she bring him forth; and the bearing of him and the weaning of him was thirty months; until when he attains his maturity and reaches forty years, he says: My Lord! grant me that I may give thanks for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do good which pleases Thee and do good to me in respect of my offspring; surely I turn to Thee, and surely I am of those who submit. P Y C

46:16. These are they from whom We accept the best of what they have done and pass over their evil deeds, among the dwellers of the garden; the promise of truth which they were promised. P Y C
46:17. And he who says to his parents: Fie on you! do you threaten me that I shall be brought forth when generations have already passed away before me? And they both call for Allah's aid: Woe to you! believe, surely the promise of Allah is true. But he says: This is nothing but stories of the ancients. P Y C

46:18. These are they against whom the word has proved true among nations of the jinn and the men that have already passed away before them; surely they are losers. P Y C
46:19. And for all are degrees according to what they did, and that He may pay them back fully their deeds and they shall not be wronged. P Y C
46:20. And on the day when those who disbelieve shall be brought before the fire: You did away with your good things in your life of the world and you enjoyed them for a while, so today you shall be rewarded with the punishment of abasement because you were unjustly proud in the land and because you transgressed. P Y C

46:21. And mention the brother of Ad; when he warned his people in the sandy plains,-- and indeed warners came before him and after him-- saying Serve none but Allah; surely I fear for you the punishment of a grievous day. P Y C
46:22. They said: Have you come to us to turn us away from our gods; then bring us what you threaten us with, if you are of the truthful ones. P Y C

46:23. He said: The knowledge is only with Allah, and I deliver to you the message with which I am sent, but I see you are a people who are ignorant. P Y C
46:24. So when they saw it as a cloud appearing in the sky advancing towards their valleys, they said: This is a cloud which will give us rain. Nay! it is what you sought to hasten on, a blast of wind in which is a painful punishment, P Y C

46:25. Destroying everything by the command of its Lord, so they became such that naught could be seen except their dwellings. Thus do We reward the guilty people. P Y C
46:26. And certainly We had established them in what We have not established you in, and We had given-- them ears and eyes and hearts, but neither their ears, nor their eyes, nor their hearts availed them aught, since they denied the communications of Allah, and that which they mocked encompassed them. P Y C

46:27. And certainly We destroyed the towns which are around you, and We repeat the communications that they might turn. P Y C
46:28. Why did not then those help them whom they took for gods besides Allah to draw (them) nigh (to Him)? Nay! they were lost to them; and this was their lie and what they forged. P Y C
46:29. And when We turned towards you a party of the jinn who listened to the Quran; so when they came to it, they said: Be silent; then when it was finished, they turned back to their people warning (them). P Y C

46:30. They said: O our people! we have listened to a Book revealed after Musa verifying that which is before it, guiding to the truth and to a right path: P Y
46:31. O our people! accept the Divine caller and believe in Him, He will forgive you of your faults and protect you from a painful punishment. P Y C
46:32. And whoever does not accept the-Divine caller, he shall not escape in the earth and he shall not have guardians besides Him, these are in manifest error. P Y C

46:33. Have they not considered that Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth and was not tired by their creation, is able to give life to the dead? Aye! He has surely power over all things. P Y C
46:34. And on the day when those who disbelieve shall be brought before the fire: Is it not true? They shall say: Aye! by our Lord! He will say: Then taste the punishment, because you disbelieved. P Y C

46:35. Therefore bear up patiently as did the messengers endowed with constancy bear up with patience and do not seek to hasten for them (their doom). On the day that they shall see what they are promised they shall be as if they had not tarried save an hour of the day. A sufficient exposition! Shall then any be destroyed save the transgressing people? P Y C

Shakir's Quran Translation

That is what Allah(swt) has told Muhammad(PBUH) to reply when any one asks who he is. Astagfirulla

I don't think anything bad about the prophet for this. I think his concerns were wise ones. He was afraid of his revelation source. No offense intended, but I think he had very good cause to doubt the source. His heart beat severally he went to Khadija saying: "Cover me, cover me!" After being covered his fears subsided and he said "I fear something may happen to me." She replied, "Never! By Allah..." (hadith1.1.3)

Dosen't it makes sense that a person would initially feel fear if God(swt) began speaking to them through an Angel. Would they not have doubt and want to be certain that they are not hearing things? If you look through the Bible you will notice that the Prophet who were spoken too all initially had doubts and showed great fear. Even Mary did not initially seem to be very happy to hear the words of Gabriel. Now also remember the Ahadith are not the words of Allah(swt) these are eye witness accounts as to what Muhammad did and/or said. this simply verifies to us that Muhammad(PBUH) saw and/or heard something that was not a routine daily occurrence.

Volumn 001, Book 001, Hadith Number 003.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Aisha : (The mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read."

The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran):

'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."

I have difficulty in why you feel that makes for doubt in the Qur'an. I see it as verification the eyewitnesses saw something out of the abnormal happen and that this was the begining of the revelations to Muhammad(PBUH)

This is the irony, Islamic theology appears to assert that woman are intellectually inferior to men (I do not believe this to be true) One hadith explains, "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes,' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'" As I had mentioned, it was Khadija that confirms his revelation. That makes me wonder, who was in control? Muhammad doubted his revelation, and since it is on the holiest month on the Islamic calendar,

I honestly can not see any relevance about anything. At that given time Ramadam had yet to be considered a Holy month. It took on that status as it was the Month the Qur'an was first revealed to Muhammad(PBUH)

It seems like that was enough to stop the prophet from doubting his revelation. It is written in many reliable documents that Muhammad doubted the source of his revelations as well, and it seems like the only ones that deny this are Muslims.

Since we read it in the Ahadith, what makes you think we deny it?

No prophet in the Bible ever doubted the source of revelation; they may have wonder how God was going to bring a thing to pass.

I believe if you look closely at every Prophet, they initially showed much doubt and fear as to what was happening.

Why do you insult me when I AM SINCERELY TRYING TO GET YOU TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS JUST AS YOU ARE DOING AMONG CHRISTIANS? We can attack the belief, but we shouldn’t attack the believer as you have done with me.

I have a feeling that comment is not very conducive to get your point across.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

... now I feel I need your permission to prove to you the valid source

u don't need my permission to do anything......i m not the moderator here.


U may discuss about Islam here .


Things in Islam I am curious about...


http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-about-39.html

I am truly sorry to have offended you.:cry:

ok , thanks .......pl. correct me if hurt anyone's feelings unwillingly.


All i can request u to judge a matter regarding holy books.

Man made laws , belief , opinions change from time to time.... laws of God's final & last will remain unchanged till the Last Day.

What u dislike about Islam , pl justify that by quoting verses from Bible so that i can understand ...ya , he has his point to dislike it.

So , give me verse from Bible that says early marriage is a sin. A 9 yrs. old girl ( after her puberty ) can not get married even if her parent & the bride give consent.


verses of the Day :


Say, ‘Do you argue with us about God when He is our Lord and your Lord? We have our actions and you have your actions.


We act for Him alone.’


(Qur’an 2: 139)


Do not imagine that God will break His promise to His Messengers. God is Almighty, Exactor of Revenge.


(Qur’an 14:47)

[Phil12123]

and concerning women, it's not that women are inferior, it's just that their memory is not the same as the men's memory, and we know this everyday life, usually women are smarter on manipulating, while men are not as good as women, but women forget more than man do. what's wrong with this? both genders have their own problems.

You must not be married. When you are, you will find that women have an astounding capacity to remember things---things you'd rather they forgot.

Ah, the naivete of youth! You will learn. Good luck.

Peace

[جوري]

You must not be married. When you are, you will find that women have an astounding capacity to remember things---things you'd rather they forgot.

Ah, the naivete of youth! You will learn. Good luck.

Peace

For that same reason a two woman witness is called see above verse I have quoted... Just in case there is one who "remembers" things a little "differently" than have actually occurred you know out of spite!

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا تَدَايَنتُم بِدَيْنٍ إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى فَاكْتُبُوهُ وَلْيَكْتُب بَّيْنَكُمْ كَاتِبٌ بِالْعَدْلِ وَلاَ يَأْبَ كَاتِبٌ أَنْ يَكْتُبَ كَمَا عَلَّمَهُ اللّهُ فَلْيَكْتُبْ وَلْيُمْلِلِ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ وَلْيَتَّقِ اللّهَ رَبَّهُ وَلاَ يَبْخَسْ مِنْهُ شَيْئًا فَإن كَانَ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ سَفِيهًا أَوْ ضَعِيفًا أَوْ لاَ يَسْتَطِيعُ أَن يُمِلَّ هُوَ فَلْيُمْلِلْ وَلِيُّهُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ شَهِيدَيْنِ من رِّجَالِكُمْ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّن تَرْضَوْنَ مِنَ الشُّهَدَاء أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الأُخْرَى وَلاَ يَأْبَ الشُّهَدَاء إِذَا مَا دُعُواْ وَلاَ تَسْأَمُوْاْ أَن تَكْتُبُوْهُ صَغِيرًا أَو كَبِيرًا إِلَى أَجَلِهِ ذَلِكُمْ أَقْسَطُ عِندَ اللّهِ وَأَقْومُ لِلشَّهَادَةِ وَأَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَرْتَابُواْ إِلاَّ أَن تَكُونَ تِجَارَةً حَاضِرَةً تُدِيرُونَهَا بَيْنَكُمْ فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ أَلاَّ تَكْتُبُوهَا وَأَشْهِدُوْاْ إِذَا تَبَايَعْتُمْ وَلاَ يُضَآرَّ كَاتِبٌ وَلاَ شَهِيدٌ وَإِن تَفْعَلُواْ فَإِنَّهُ فُسُوقٌ بِكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ {282}

[Pickthal 2:282] O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you in (terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember. And the witnesses must not refuse when they are summoned. Be not averse to writing down (the contract) whether it be small or great, with (record of) the term thereof. That is more equitable in the sight of Allah and more sure for testimony, and the best way of avoiding doubt between you; save only in the case when it is actual merchandise which ye transfer among yourselves from hand to hand. In that case it is no sin for you if ye write it not. And have witnesses when ye sell one to another, and let no harm be done to scribe or witness. If ye do (harm to them) lo! it is a sin in you. Observe your duty to Allah. Allah is teaching you. And Allah is knower of all things.


again-- nothing in the way of inferiority... these are our divine laws, if you don't like them then stay as you are, no one has forced it on any of you!

peace!

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

The date is important, as it clearly shows the story was an invention and not a true event.

In truth, only some Christians believe that priests should not have children, and no Christians believe that priests are above having children. The reason that those who do not have children have chosen not to is for other reasons than the story implies.

well , don't know much about date :-[

are u 2 sure that there was no Muslim scholar in Roman period ?

why Priests believe they must not get married & have kids ?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

You must not be married. When you are, you will find that women have an astounding capacity to remember things---

haha funny :p

IN Islam , in some major cases woman's testimony is equal to man. I mentioed it in another thread. This will be off topic here.

So, a quick short (!) ans. If a husband accusses that his wife's character is not good & he does not have any witness , then he will swear upon God.

No punishment will be given to wife if she also swear upon God that She is good. See , man's testimony is not considered as highter than her here.


In financial cases , i guess as it's men's responsiblities to earn & spend for family members & as women are free from this burden & normally don't deal with other people specially with men ...... they may not have the same experties in this area. May be , that's why 2 women are needed in few cases on some practical reasons .

But , in the case of earning rewards for the life hereafter , both men & women are equal ......u may say that women are in advantage position :statisfie .....doing household things , taking care of kids......& they are getting rewards & its not a must for them to go to war field.




Anyway , pl. ask these off topic questions in the related thread . So that we can answer in details.

another verse of the day :)


God—there is no god but He, the Ever-living, the Self-Subsisting (by whom all subsist).

He has sent down upon you the Book with the Truth

Aal `Imran 3:2-3

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/ peace ;




well , don't know much about date :-[

are u 2 sure that there was no Muslim scholar in Roman period ?

why Priests believe they must not get married & have kids ?

Rome was fallen 300 years before Muhammad was born. How could their have been a Muslim scholar 300 years before Muhammad?

[Woodrow]

Rome was fallen 300 years before Muhammad was born. How could their have been a Muslim scholar 300 years before Muhammad?

Peace Gene,

I too was wondering about that and then I remembered that after the fall of the Roman Empire you have the rise of the "Holy Roman Empire" Which was the Emporers appointed by the Pope. I believe the story Muslim Woman related took place during that time.

Saxon dynasty
Otto I, 936–73
Otto II, 973–83
Otto III, 983–1002
Henry II, 1002–24

Salian or Franconian dynasty
Conrad II, 1024–39
Henry III, 1039–56
Henry IV, 1056–1105
Henry V, 1105–25
Lothair II, duke of Saxony, 1125–37

Hohenstaufen dynasty and rivals
Conrad III, 1138–52
Frederick I, 1152–90
Henry VI, 1190–97
Philip of Swabia, 1198–1208
antiking: Otto IV (Guelph), 1198–1208
Otto IV (king, 1208–12; emperor, 1209–15), 1208–15
Frederick II (king, 1212–20; emperor, 1220–50), 1212–50
Conrad IV, 1237–54
antiking: Henry Raspe, 1246–47
antiking: William, count of Holland, 1247–56

Interregnum,
1254–73 Richard, earl of Cornwall, and Alfonso X of Castile, rivals

Hapsburg, Luxemburg, and other dynasties
Rudolf I (Hapsburg), 1273–91
Adolf of Nassau, 1292–98
Albert I (Hapsburg), 1298–1308
Henry VII (Luxemburg), 1308–13
Louis IV (Wittelsbach), 1314–46
Charles IV (Luxemburg), 1346–78
Wenceslaus (Luxemburg), 1378–1400
Rupert (Wittelsbach), 1400–1410
Sigismund (Luxemburg), 1410–37

Hapsburg dynasty
Albert II, 1438–39
Frederick III, 1440–93
Maximilian I, 1493–1519
Charles V, 1519–58
Ferdinand I, 1558–64
Maximilian II, 1564–76
Rudolf II, 1576–1612
Matthias, 1612–19
Ferdinand II, 1619–37
Ferdinand III, 1637–57
Leopold I, 1658–1705
Joseph I, 1705–11
Charles VI, 1711–40

Interregnum (1740–42)
and other dynasties Charles VII (Wittelsbach-Hapsburg), 1742–45
Francis I (Lorraine), 1745–65

Hapsburg-Lorraine dynasty
Joseph II, 1765–90
Leopold II, 1790–92
Francis II, 1792–1806

Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/holy-roman-emperor-2



I

[Grace Seeker]

Peace Gene,

I too was wondering about that and then I remembered that after the fall of the Roman Empire you have the rise of the "Holy Roman Empire" Which was the Emporers appointed by the Pope. I believe the story Muslim Woman related took place during that time.

Well, that would resolve one conundrum. (Though Charlemagne might take exception to the idea that anyone appointed him at all.)


As for the moral of the story, I still see someone who just doesn't understand Christian theology.

[Woodrow]

Well, that would resolve one conundrum. (Though Charlemagne might take exception to the idea that anyone appointed him at all.)


As for the moral of the story, I still see someone who just doesn't understand Christian theology.

More of the mystery unfolds.

Al-Baqillani died in 1013. The "Holy Roman Emporers wer all Catholics and their courts and advisors consisted of Catholic Priests and Bishops. The Christians al-baqalini would have debated with would have been Catholic Theologian. this was the major world view of Christianity at that time.

A little more about al-Baqilani.

al-BAQILLANI (i.e. the greengrocer), the qadi Abu Bakr Muhammad b. al-tayyib b.
Muhammad b. Dha'far b. al-qasim, in most of the sources Ibn al-Baqillani, but in popular usage
(and Ibn khallikan) simply al-Baqillani, Ash'ari theologian and Maliki jurisprudent, said to have
been a major factor in the systematising and popularising of Ash'arism.

The date of his birth is unknown. He died on t3 Dhu'l-qa'da 403/5 June 1013. Born in Basra,
he seems to have spent most of his adult like in Baghdad. Visits to Shiraz and the Byzantine court
are mentioned, and for a time he exercised the office of qadi outside the capital. He studied usul
al-din under disciples of al-Ash'ari and is said to have attracted many to his own lectures. Various
anecdotes are related to illustrate his skill in disputation. qadi, writer, disputant, lecturer--these
headings sum up his life as we know it from our rather inadequate sources.

Source: http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ei2/baqillani.htm

And you are Right about Charlemagne, he did grab the crown and appointed himself.

[MustafaMc]

You just don't get it, do you? But then you are expressing the Muslim view, so I shouldn't expect you to get the Christian view. From all the posts, both Muslim and Christian, we can conclude that there is agreement on some very clear points:

1. We are all sinners, whether daily or hourly, in word, thought, or deed.

2. Heaven is a perfect place where no sin will ever enter.

3. Without forgiveness of sins, no sinner will ever enter Heaven.

4. No sinner can work enough, or do anything, or be "good" enough, to deserve Heaven.

5. Muslims are hoping in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

6. Christians are relying on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning death for sins, and resurrection, as payment in full for all their sins, in order to receive forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift, here and now and forevermore.

7. The view you have expressed represents the Muslim view that Christ did not die on the cross, let alone for anyone's sins. This view is diametrically and irreconcilably opposed to the Christian Gospel that Christ died for our sins and rose again.

8. According to the Christian view, a person who denies the Deity of Christ will die in his sins (John 8:24,58), and be barred from Heaven.

9. According to the Muslim view, believing Christ is God is associating with Allah, the unforgiveable sin that will bar a person from Heaven.

I think that covers points of agreement. Have I left anything out?

Peace

That pretty accurately summarizes my point of view. Point #5 should be expanded slightly.

5. Muslims are hoping in their belief in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

[Trumble]

Peace Gene,

I too was wondering about that and then I remembered that after the fall of the Roman Empire you have the rise of the "Holy Roman Empire" Which was the Emporers appointed by the Pope. I believe the story Muslim Woman related took place during that time.

I would have thought it far more likely the 'Roman emperor' concerned was Byzantine. The Empire in the east didn't fall for another millennium.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

Rome was fallen 300 years before
Muhammad was born. How could their have been a Muslim scholar 300 years before Muhammad?

yak .... i really have no idea about date....but after reading ur post , i remembered a verse where victory of Roman is mentioned .

It's Sura Rum ( Romans ) -- chapter 30

.....The Romans have been defeated.


3. In the nearer land (Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Palestine), and they, after their defeat, will be victorious.


4. Within three to nine years. The decision of the matter, before and after (these events) is only with God, (before the defeat of Romans by the Persians, and after, i.e. the defeat of the Persians by the Romans).

And on that Day, the believers (i.e. Muslims) will rejoice (at the victory given by God to the Romans against the Persians),


5. With the help of God, He helps whom He wills, and He is the All-Mighty, the Most Merciful.


6. (It is) a Promise of God (i.e. God will give victory to the Romans against the Persians), and God fails not in His Promise, but most of men know not


http://www.quranm.multicom.ba/transl...ali%20Khan.htm

a related story :......commentary made by Allamah Ahmad Uthmani



On the basis of this prediction, Hadhrat Abu Bakr made a bet with some of the idolaters (betting was not prohibited at that time) that if the Romans did not get victory within nine years, he would give them a hundred camels, otherwise they would give him a certain number of camels.



In the beginning Hadhrat Abu Bakr appointed ‘bidh’a sineen’ (a few more years) as three years from his own opinion. Bur afterwards, at the bidding of the Prophet , the covenant was made on the term of nine years, which is the real application of the word ‘bidha’.


On the other side, the Caesar of the Roman Empire was determined to regain the lost power and vowed that if he defeated the Persians, he would go to ‘Baitul Maqdis’ by foot. Behold the power of Allah!


According to the Quranic prediction, right within nine years, after the passing of one year of Hijrah, on the day of Badr, when the Muslims were rejoicing in the clear victory over the idolaters, by the grace of Allah, became happier with the news that Allah had made the Romans (the people of the book) to prevail over the Persians fire-worshippers.

In this way the idolaters got a double blow of disgrace


http://www.inter-islam.org/Pastevents/FallRome.html

[Redeemed]

Sorry, I didn't mean to ofend you. I will have to pray about how to respond to you.

[Muslim Knight]

Rome was fallen 300 years before Muhammad was born. How could their have been a Muslim scholar 300 years before Muhammad?

The verse mentioned about the Byzantines under Emperor Heraclius. Byzantines inherited so much from Roman Empire. Rum & rumawiyy (Rome & Romans) were how the Arabs back then describe the Byzantines.

[vpb]

The verse mentioned about the Byzantines under Emperor Heraclius. Byzantines inherited so much from Roman Empire. Rum & rumawiyy (Rome & Romans) were how the Arabs back then describe the Byzantines.

just to mention a hadith of the conversation between Heraclius and people of mecca during the beggining of Islam. In case you missed it last page.

Volume 1, Book 1, Number 6: Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:
Abu Sufyan bin Harb informed me that Heraclius had sent a messenger to him while he had been accompanying a caravan from Quraish. They were merchants doing business in Sham (Syria, Palestine, Lebanon and Jordan), at the time when Allah's Apostle had truce with Abu Sufyan and Quraish infidels. So Abu Sufyan and his companions went to Heraclius at Ilya (Jerusalem). Heraclius called them in the court and he had all the senior Roman dignitaries around him. He called for his translator who, translating Heraclius's question said to them, "Who amongst you is closely related to that man who claims to be a Prophet?" Abu Sufyan replied, "I am the nearest relative to him (amongst the group)."
Heraclius said, "Bring him (Abu Sufyan) close to me and make his companions stand behind him." Abu Sufyan added, Heraclius told his translator to tell my companions that he wanted to put some questions to me regarding that man (The Prophet) and that if I told a lie they (my companions) should contradict me." Abu Sufyan added, "By Allah! Had I not been afraid of my companions labeling me a liar, I would not have spoken the truth about the Prophet. The first question he asked me about him was:
'What is his family status amongst you?'
I replied, 'He belongs to a good (noble) family amongst us.'
Heraclius further asked, 'Has anybody amongst you ever claimed the same (i.e. to be a Prophet) before him?'
I replied, 'No.'
He said, 'Was anybody amongst his ancestors a king?'
I replied, 'No.'
Heraclius asked, 'Do the nobles or the poor follow him?'
I replied, 'It is the poor who follow him.'
He said, 'Are his followers increasing decreasing (day by day)?'
I replied, 'They are increasing.'
He then asked, 'Does anybody amongst those who embrace his religion become displeased and renounce the religion afterwards?'
I replied, 'No.'
Heraclius said, 'Have you ever accused him of telling lies before his claim (to be a Prophet)?'
I replied, 'No. '
Heraclius said, 'Does he break his promises?'
I replied, 'No. We are at truce with him but we do not know what he will do in it.' I could not find opportunity to say anything against him except that.
Heraclius asked, 'Have you ever had a war with him?'
I replied, 'Yes.'
Then he said, 'What was the outcome of the battles?'
I replied, 'Sometimes he was victorious and sometimes we.'
Heraclius said, 'What does he order you to do?'
I said, 'He tells us to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship anything along with Him, and to renounce all that our ancestors had said. He orders us to pray, to speak the truth, to be chaste and to keep good relations with our Kith and kin.'
Heraclius asked the translator to convey to me the following, I asked you about his family and your reply was that he belonged to a very noble family. In fact all the Apostles come from noble families amongst their respective peoples. I questioned you whether anybody else amongst you claimed such a thing, your reply was in the negative. If the answer had been in the affirmative, I would have thought that this man was following the previous man's statement. Then I asked you whether anyone of his ancestors was a king. Your reply was in the negative, and if it had been in the affirmative, I would have thought that this man wanted to take back his ancestral kingdom.
I further asked whether he was ever accused of telling lies before he said what he said, and your reply was in the negative. So I wondered how a person who does not tell a lie about others could ever tell a lie about Allah. I, then asked you whether the rich people followed him or the poor. You replied that it was the poor who followed him. And in fact all the Apostle have been followed by this very class of people. Then I asked you whether his followers were increasing or decreasing. You replied that they were increasing, and in fact this is the way of true faith, till it is complete in all respects. I further asked you whether there was anybody, who, after embracing his religion, became displeased and discarded his religion. Your reply was in the negative, and in fact this is (the sign of) true faith, when its delight enters the hearts and mixes with them completely. I asked you whether he had ever betrayed. You replied in the negative and likewise the Apostles never betray. Then I asked you what he ordered you to do. You replied that he ordered you to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship any thing along with Him and forbade you to worship idols and ordered you to pray, to speak the truth and to be chaste. If what you have said is true, he will very soon occupy this place underneath my feet and I knew it (from the scriptures) that he was going to appear but I did not know that he would be from you, and if I could reach him definitely, I would go immediately to meet him and if I were with him, I would certainly wash his feet.' Heraclius then asked for the letter addressed by Allah's Apostle
which was delivered by Dihya to the Governor of Busra, who forwarded it to Heraclius to read. The contents of the letter were as follows: "In the name of Allah the Beneficent, the Merciful (This letter is) from Muhammad the slave of Allah and His Apostle to Heraclius the ruler of Byzantine. Peace be upon him, who follows the right path. Furthermore I invite you to Islam, and if you become a Muslim you will be safe, and Allah will double your reward, and if you reject this invitation of Islam you will be committing a sin by misguiding your Arisiyin (peasants). (And I recite to you Allah's Statement:)
'O people of the scripture! Come to a word common to you and us that we worship none but Allah and that we associate nothing in worship with Him, and that none of us shall take others as Lords beside Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: Bear witness that we are Muslims (those who have surrendered to Allah).' (3:64).
Abu Sufyan then added, "When Heraclius had finished his speech and had read the letter, there was a great hue and cry in the Royal Court. So we were turned out of the court. I told my companions that the question of Ibn-Abi-Kabsha) (the Prophet Muhammad) has become so prominent that even the King of Bani Al-Asfar (Byzantine) is afraid of him. Then I started to become sure that he (the Prophet) would be the conqueror in the near future till I embraced Islam (i.e. Allah guided me to it)."
The sub narrator adds, "Ibn An-Natur was the Governor of llya' (Jerusalem) and Heraclius was the head of the Christians of Sham. Ibn An-Natur narrates that once while Heraclius was visiting ilya' (Jerusalem), he got up in the morning with a sad mood. Some of his priests asked him why he was in that mood? Heraclius was a foreteller and an astrologer. He replied, 'At night when I looked at the stars, I saw that the leader of those who practice circumcision had appeared (become the conqueror). Who are they who practice circumcision?' The people replied, 'Except the Jews nobody practices circumcision, so you should not be afraid of them (Jews).
'Just Issue orders to kill every Jew present in the country.'
While they were discussing it, a messenger sent by the king of Ghassan to convey the news of Allah's Apostle to Heraclius was brought in. Having heard the news, he (Heraclius) ordered the people to go and see whether the messenger of Ghassan was circumcised. The people, after seeing him, told Heraclius that he was circumcised. Heraclius then asked him about the Arabs. The messenger replied, 'Arabs also practice circumcision.'
(After hearing that) Heraclius remarked that sovereignty of the 'Arabs had appeared. Heraclius then wrote a letter to his friend in Rome who was as good as Heraclius in knowledge. Heraclius then left for Homs. (a town in Syrian and stayed there till he received the reply of his letter from his friend who agreed with him in his opinion about the emergence of the Prophet and the fact that he was a Prophet. On that Heraclius invited all the heads of the Byzantines to assemble in his palace at Homs. When they assembled, he ordered that all the doors of his palace be closed. Then he came out and said, 'O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give a pledge of allegiance to this Prophet (i.e. embrace Islam).'
(On hearing the views of Heraclius) the people ran towards the gates of the palace like onagers but found the doors closed. Heraclius realized their hatred towards Islam and when he lost the hope of their embracing Islam, he ordered that they should be brought back in audience.
(When they returned) he said, 'What already said was just to test the strength of your conviction and I have seen it.' The people prostrated before him and became pleased with him, and this was the end of Heraclius's story (in connection with his faith).

[Keltoi]

Byzantium was half of what was once the Roman Empire.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

.... I will have to pray about how to respond to you.

don't know u r talking to whom....it's quite an unusual ans......have to pray about how to respond to you :)

but ofcourse prayer is good for our this life & the life hereafter ...so go ahead :)

[vpb]

Why?

Are you joking?

There is no "need" to do anything of the sort. Suggesting there is is as absurd as saying "OK, so Mohammed got the Qur'an from God via the Angel Gabriel. Show me the eye witness reports of those who were there at the time(s) and SAW the Angel Gabriel".

there is no need? are you ingorant or you lost your bicycle? well I dont want to believe blindly without knowing at least who transmitted those words. and there is enough proof that Muhammed had contact with Gibreel a.s, check the previous posts, where I pasted some hadith and the example with the sahaba. And even before the revelation, Muhammed saws was known as "al-amin", the trustworthy, check the hadith on blue of the conversation between Abu Sufyan and Heraclius, what did Abu Sufyan said. I dont want to get now on this topic , cuz there should be already threads about this thing.

There is no need as it is sufficient to assume that Bible is "inspired" by God to assume in turn that it says what He wishes it to say. I'm sure you would agree that that is comfortably within His power? Your point only makes any sense at all if you assume otherwise, which obviously Christians do not. In both cases, the issue is one of faith , not "sources and chains of narration", or indeed eye witnesses. A faith I don't share in the case of either Bible or Qur'an, of course, but then faith is like that - you have it or you don't.

no , i'm sorry I can't accept just blindly somebody's work just like that, if the bible would be something direct from God, of course narration chain would not be needed, but since they depend on these people's work who lived after Death of Jesus and that pretend to have known what Jesus said, then I need to know how did that knowledge came to them, same is for hadiths at us, as I showed a sample above, if there is break on the chain, we don't accept the hadith, even if there is no break on the chain, but the person who transmitts did something like "eating while standing on foot, not sitting" , their hadith is questioned.
so you need a chain of what Paul or john or luke.... said was true and that that knowledge cam from the companions of Jesus. But i'm not suprised for you trying to defend them by saying narration is not needed, which is needed unless follow blindly, bc you are both type of people who commit kufr . so i'm not suprised at all.

and I still ask for a chain narration of any single statement made by Jesus, that any of the goespel writer wrote. Keltoi or alpiana1, or whoever wills may help each other and bring me a chain narration if they can. Otherwise I have no reason to believe statements made by paul, john , ...... to be accurate.

peace :)

[Phil12123]

There is no "need" to do anything of the sort. Suggesting there is is as absurd as saying "OK, so Mohammed got the Qur'an from God via the Angel Gabriel. Show me the eye witness reports of those who were there at the time(s) and SAW the Angel Gabriel".

There is no need as it is sufficient to assume that Bible is "inspired" by God to assume in turn that it says what He wishes it to say. I'm sure you would agree that that is comfortably within His power? Your point only makes any sense at all if you assume otherwise, which obviously Christians do not. In both cases, the issue is one of faith , not "sources and chains of narration", or indeed eye witnesses. A faith I don't share in the case of either Bible or Qur'an, of course, but then faith is like that - you have it or you don't.

I agree with the above re. any "need" to show some sort of chain of narration. Would you, vpb, believe it then? No. So, why should I bother meeting your request? If Jesus said to Matthew (aka Levi) at that tax collector's table, "Come follow me," and Matthew then writes that in his gospel account, what "chain" is necessary? None. So, do you believe He said that?

Actually, from the chain you offered (that huge chart), I would say whatever was said from the prophet would never be the same as what came out at the other end of the chart, having passed through that many people in the chain. I would trust the Bible before I would trust that.

Peace

[vpb]

I agree with the above re. any "need" to show some sort of chain of narration. Would you, vpb, believe it then? No. So, why should I bother meeting your request?

why do u bother giving me a chain? I want to see one, but I guess you say No bc you can't . but if you can than prove yourself and bring one here :).

If Jesus said to Matthew (aka Levi) at that tax collector's table, "Come follow me," and Matthew then writes that in his gospel account, what "chain" is necessary? None. So, do you believe He said that?

how much do we now about Matthew? you barely know he was a tax collector and his father was called james and the 'aka Levi' comes from gospel of Luke. If I were going to believe this person how much do we know about him???

also when I say chain of narration , the people who are in the chain , all of them need to have biographies, otherwise we don't know much about them, wether one of them was pious or corrupted and also corrupted the message or what??

but other writers did not live during the lifetime of jesus, so this is even worse.

we don't even know their last names and you want to come and tell me they are good people and trustworthy , and that they knowledge came from a valid chain and they didn't change any of the words.

So if Bible is not direct word of God, and someone writes it later, we have to know how the knowledge passed. but still you fail you bring me a chain and you excuse yourself by saying that Matthew was a tax collector and he was known as Levi. You don't even know when he died, and where exactly he died. So bring me a chain. Are you lazy of doing so? or you can't ?? bc you have not even the core information about the writers, we don't need even to go further than that.

Actually, from the chain you offered (that huge chart), I would say whatever was said from the prophet would never be the same as what came out at the other end of the chart, having passed through that many people in the chain. I would trust the Bible before I would trust that.

yes it would. cuz these people first are blessed generation, and their capacity of memorization is beoynd the point of our today's people's memory. and also as I stated on the previous post, how pious they had to be. Actually we don't even have to go that further, my best friend he is in Madrasa, when his teacher says a hadith, just once , he memorizes it, or usually when I read hadiths from the book of Shaykh Albanee, in first try he memorizes the hadith. Alhamdulilah. so the process that a hadith goes through to be classified as valid is very very strict.
from 300,000 hadiths that Bukhari collected, 200,000 he memorized , and from 300,000 hadiths he choose aproximately 7,275 hadiths with repetition and about 2,230 without repetition of which their is no doubt aobut their authenticity.

and secondly, Bible is your primary source, whereas hadith is our secondary source, and hadith is not the direct word of God, whereas Qur'an is. So do u claim that Bible is the word of God.

just for the sake of argument, at least bring me the chain of knowledge that passed through these inspired people, i'm not asking bout wether they were pious, or their biographies.

Bring the proof if you are truthful , and don't go around the corner on giving excuses.

[Trumble]

Are you joking?

No.

are you ingorant or you lost your bicycle?

I would hope I am no more of the first than most here, and my bicycle is where I left it.

well I dont want to believe blindly without knowing at least who transmitted those words. and there is enough proof that Muhammed had contact with Gibreel a.s

You believe blindly enough yourself; there is nothing remotely resembling "proof" that there even was/is a Gibreel let alone that Mohammed had contact with him. You merely have faith in both.

But i'm not suprised for you trying to defend them by saying narration is not needed, which is needed unless follow blindly, bc you are both type of people who commit kufr . so i'm not suprised at all.

Nobody needs "defending". I merely pointed out that if you accept the assumption that the Bible was 'inspired' by God, as Christians do, then such a defence is not necessary. If you do not accept that assumption, then the whole point is irrelevant as the words transmitted would have just as little to do with God whether 'chains' existed or not.

and I still ask for a chain narration of any single statement made by Jesus, that any of the goespel writer wrote. Keltoi or alpiana1, or whoever wills may help each other and bring me a chain narration if they can. Otherwise I have no reason to believe statements made by paul, john , ...... to be accurate.

I'm puzzled as to why you keep asking for something you know full well doesn't exist. And, if it did, would you believe any differently? Even if you could trace a direct line between, say, somebody standing next to Jesus when he gave the Sermon on the Mount and a gospel author what is to to say that the transmission was accurate? If, of course, God was guiding the whole process along, as Christians believe, that wouldn't have happened, so again from their perspective there is no problem.

[Grace Seeker]

we have repeatedly challenged any christian to come forward and tell us straightforwardly how was the bible canon compiled?

Yes. And I (and others) have come and straightforwardly given that answer on more than one occassion. So, what is your point? I don't see one.

All I am learning from this part of the discussion is that you can ask lots of questions, but are not able to recognize answers, for you continually repeat the same questions over and over again.

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

Yow! This is some hot stuff. Let me make a suggestion.

1. Mohammed came into contact with corrupt persons who called themselves Christians and Jews.

2. Such persons taught utter rubbish thus incurring Mohammed’s wrath for distorting the Scriptures (e.g. 3:78). This rubbish certainly included misconceptions about Jesus.

3. The relationship between Jesus and God has been the subject of intense study over the past 2,000 years. However, both Christians and Muslims believe that God is one and that that Jesus is the Messiah.

If such a belief is sufficient for us, then why not simply leave it there? Why exceed this minimum during our conversation knowing that Muslims will feel duty-bound to respond with the same indignation as Mohammed?

Regards,
Grenville

[Grace Seeker]

yes, of course, bc these gospels are human-made books, bc if it would have been the word of God, than there would be just one name and that name would be mentioned in the book, but since everybody put his head on the "inspiration from God", people who didn't even met Jesus, and they write many books, of course the word Bible does not appear on the Bible :)

NO. I disagree. We see that God directed more than one person to write, by his inspiritation, more than one book. Each book was written for its own particular reason. The Church would in time collect all of these writing together and keep them in one place. Though they had many different human scribes and spoke to many different sitatuations over a large number of years, they all had one thing in common, they were the word of God for the people of God. And that is why we collected them together into one place, and declared them to be the standard of faith and practice (i.e. the canon). So, the creation of the writing was a work of God through human agents. The collation of the Bible was a work of God's people though the Holy Spirit.

[vpb]

You believe blindly enough yourself; there is nothing remotely resembling "proof" that there even was/is a Gibreel let alone that Mohammed had contact with him. You merely have faith in both.

read the previous posts where I posted the example with the sahabi. i think it's on 6th page.

Nobody needs "defending". I merely pointed out that if you accept the assumption that the Bible was 'inspired' by God, as Christians do, then such a defence is not necessary. If you do not accept that assumption, then the whole point is irrelevant as the words transmitted would have just as little to do with God whether 'chains' existed or not.

yes but if there were inspiried that would not say "Jesus in such and such place did this", but they would say "Jesus is saying this..", and it depends what type of inspiration, if it a ordinary inspiration as we call in our daily life, then they had to have knowledge about Jesus to write something, but if they had true inspiration it means that they don't need any knowledge, but they just write whatever comes on their mind. So you either choose this one, or the other.

I'm puzzled as to why you keep asking for something you know full well doesn't exist. And, if it did, would you believe any differently? Even if you could trace a direct line between, say, somebody standing next to Jesus when he gave the Sermon on the Mount and Paul what is to to say that the transmission was accurate or that Paul didn't "make up stuff" in the way muslims frequently claim he did? If, of course, God was guiding the whole process along, as Christians believe, that wouldn't have happened, so again from their perspective there is no problem.

yes, bc they dont have one, they dont even have enough information on the writers, so I have no reason whatsoever to accept Bible as accurate concerning what jesus really said. So the possibility is very veyr high that it got corrupted. and I dont understand how Christians would dedicate themselves and give up paradise for a book like Bible? i don't want to offend anyone, but there is no proof whatsoever to show the authenticity of Bible, no information at all , except those lines that you have between two covers.

may Allah swt guide us. ameen

[vpb]

You blindly accept somebody's work every time you pick up your Qur'an. You blindly accept that Muhammad was telling you the truth. You blindly accept that:
1) he got the message from anothe source and not his own creation. You have convinced yourself that Muhammad was not intelligent enough man to have composed the recitations over time. I have a higher degree of respect for Muhammad's intelligence than that.
2) the source was indeed the angel Gabriel and not some other source. You believe this because that is who Muhammad told you told him, and you believe Muhammad to be telling the truth. In part because if he didn't get it from Gabriel, then he was either lying (you can't believe that of Muhammad's character), fooled (you won't believe that of Muhammad's person), or crazy (a crazy man doesn't do the things that Muhammad did).
3) Gabriel got his message from God. The alternative to this option is too scary to even conceive for the Muslim, yet this alternative option is exactly what you claim has happened with regard to the Bible. If it could happen to our holy book, why could it not have happened to yours?

1) he got the message from anothe source and not his own creation. You have convinced yourself that Muhammad was not intelligent enough man to have composed the recitations over time. I have a higher degree of respect for Muhammad's intelligence than that.

who said about Muhammed's intelligence??
being illiterate and not intelligent are different things. I assume you know the difference. And being illiterate is a high owner to the prophet Muhammed, and alhamdulilah that he was an illiterate, bc from the work of Qur'an, everybody would say he was literate so he gained knowledge by reading other books. So you can't claim that Muhammed wrote the Qur'an himself, where we know Qur'an contains information in every field.

2) the source was indeed the angel Gabriel and not some other source. You believe this because that is who Muhammad told you told him, and you believe Muhammad to be telling the truth. In part because if he didn't get it from Gabriel, then he was either lying (you can't believe that of Muhammad's character), fooled (you won't believe that of Muhammad's person), or crazy (a crazy man doesn't do the things that Muhammad did).

your statements are typical to the people at that time when there were accusing Muhammed saws as being mad. but people in reality new he was speaking the truth, cuz he was known as Al-amin, read the conversation on the hadith i posted above what Abu Sufyan said about Muhammed saws.
but Allah swt tells us in the Qur'an:

At-Takwir (The overthrowing) :

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
1. When the sun (with its spacious light) is folded up;
2. When the stars fall, losing their luster;
3. When the mountains vanish (like a mirage);
4. When the she-camels, ten months with young, are left untended;
5. When the wild beasts are herded together (in human habitations);
6. When the oceans boil over with a swell;
7. When the souls are sorted out, (being joined, like with like);
8. When the female (infant), buried alive, is questioned -
9. For what crime she was killed;
10. When the Scrolls are laid open;
11. When the sky is unveiled;
12. When the Blazing Fire is kindled to fierce heat;
13. And when the Garden is brought near;-
14. (Then) shall each soul know what it has put forward.
15. So verily I call to witness the Planets - that recede,
16. Go straight, or hide;
17. And the Night as it dissipates;
18. And the Dawn as it breathes away the darkness;-
19. Verily this is the word of a most honorable Messenger,
20. Endued with Power, held in honor by the Lord of the Throne,
21. With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust.
22. And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed;
23. And without doubt he saw him (Gabriel) in the clear horizon.
24. Neither doth he withhold grudgingly a knowledge of the Unseen.
25. Nor is it the word of a satan accursed.
26. When whither go ye?
27. Verily this is no less than a Message to (all) the Worlds:
28. (With profit) to whoever among you wills to go straight:
29. But ye shall not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds.



Volume 1, Book 2, Number 47:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.
1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.
2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.
The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith.


there are plenty hadiths, but i just quoted one.

3) Gabriel got his message from God. The alternative to this option is too scary to even conceive for the Muslim, yet this alternative option is exactly what you claim has happened with regard to the Bible. If it could happen to our holy book, why could it not have happened to yours?

Jesus a.s came with the book , Injeel, but that's not the one you have in your house. But the bible you have , is not something as Qur'an that has been written directly on the paper and memorized at the same time, but yours is rather some writings, which some we don't know if they belong to the author, no proof, or we don't know the late writers where did they got the knowledge, but none of theme recieved the verses of Bible from God, directly. Also this is one point that tells us that Bible is corrupted, bc we don't want to go on logic , or mathematical or prophecy analysis. For information how Qur'an was revealed, preserved and compiled read the book:
http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b7626.html
and also 1/3 of the books is about OT NT .

peace :)

[vpb]

Which makes sense if the Qur'an is truly a work of God and the Bible is false. But not if it is the other way around.

What you are therefore also doing is asking us to throw away our Bibles, because they do teach those "truths" that we believe which you declare to be false beliefs. We merely want to show you that what we believe is taught, not just by "other" sources, but within the very pages of the Bible itself.

no i'm not saying to throw your bibles, cuz i have a bible with me here, but I'm trying to tell you that the bible is out-of-date version, so you need to update yourself with the Qur'an.

Allah swt is high and is not in need of anything. So I'm trying to tell you not to join in partnership with Allah swt.


this is a part of article I am translating and soon I will publish the whole article on the forum. put here's a part of it:

Tawheed = Oneness of Allah , the core belief, which we don't joing partnership to Allah swt.

4. Tawheed is the main reason for the man to enter Jannah (Paradise)


It is transmitted from Ubaidah Ibn Samit (r.a) that the Messenger of Allah saws said: "Who testifies that there is no diety of worship except Allah, Who is without rival or partner, and that Muhammed is His Messenger, and that paradise and hellfire are true, Allah swt will put him in Jannah (Paradise)." [Bukhari]

Transmitted from Utban that the Messenger of Allah saws said: "Allah swt forbided the hellfire to have a person who said the word "La ilahe ilall-llah" with sincerity."
[Bukhari]

In this context, it is worthy to mention the word of Ibn Taymyah to comment and understand the above hadiths:

"These hadiths is for those people that said this word and died with this word, work with this word, say it with sincerty, convinced without having any doubts or dilemma and with loyalty"

Hasan al Basri has been asked that there are some people that say that whoever pronounces the word "La ilahe il-lall-llah" will enter Jannah? He answered: "He who pronounces the word "La ilahe il-lall-llah" , practices the conditions and become subject of the orders of this word will enter Jannah."

When Vahb Ibn Munabih answered the question: "Is the word "La ilahe il-lall-llah" the key of the Jannah"? He said every key has its pins,so if it comes with the key and its pins, the door will be opened, otherwise if it comes with key without its pins, it will not be opened".

[Grace Seeker]

who said about Muhammed's intelligence??
being illiterate and not intelligent are different things. I assume you know the difference. And being illiterate is a high owner to the prophet Muhammed, and alhamdulilah that he was an illiterate, bc from the work of Qur'an, everybody would say he was literate so he gained knowledge by reading other books. So you can't claim that Muhammed wrote the Qur'an himself, where we know Qur'an contains information in every field.

Illiterate people are able to function even in our society today. For Muhammad to be illiterate doesn't mean that he could not have been well-versed (even if not well-read) in much other literature. Indeed, it appears that he was knowledgable about much of the world. Being illiterate would not have prevented him from being a human source of the Qur'an if that had been his desire.

your statements are typical to the people at that time when there were accusing Muhammed saws as being mad. but people in reality new he was speaking the truth, cuz he was known as Al-amin, read the conversation on the hadith i posted above what Abu Sufyan said about Muhammed saws.

Check my post again. I specifically said that Muhammad was not crazy.

Jesus a.s came with the book , Injeel, but that's not the one you have in your house. But the bible you have , is not something as Qur'an that has been written directly on the paper and memorized at the same time, but yours is rather some writings, which some we don't know if they belong to the author, no proof, or we don't know the late writers where did they got the knowledge, but none of theme recieved the verses of Bible from God, directly. Also this is one point that tells us that Bible is corrupted, bc we don't want to go on logic , or mathematical or prophecy analysis. For information how Qur'an was revealed, preserved and compiled read the book:
http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b7626.html
and also 1/3 of the books is about OT NT .

peace :)

And so we not only see that there is blind belief in the Qur'an. But blind acceptance of disbelief in the integrity of the Bible.



vpb, I'm not trying to change your view on what you accept of don't accept. I'm just pointing out that it begins from a faith persepctive of what is and is not trustworthy.

You accpet the Qur'an as worthy of placing once faith and trust in it. You do not accept the Bible that way. But the reason you accept them is because you have believed the Qur'an's testimony regarding itself and the Bible. So, you believe because you believe. And then once you believe because you believe, then you can know your beliefs to be true because you have the testimony that they are true, based on the book that you believe in.

I'm not claiming that Christians don't ultimately do the same thing with the Bible.

And I'm also saying that when one starts with a belief that we become firmly convicted of being true, your arguments from logic based in a contradictory belief system aren't going any more effective in convincing or even showing a Christian anything than a Christian's arguments in showing a Muslim who is solid in his/her faith anything.


I have posted several times about Polycarp and a little less about Ignatius of Antioch (be sure to distinguish him from Ignatius of Loyola) on these forums if you want to do a search for them. Or you could read about them for yourself by looking them up in these sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarp
The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia
Development of the New Testament Canon
Theopedia: An Encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity


Many of their writings are available here:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ignatius.html and http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/polycarp.html#


That should at least get you a start. If you don't find what you are looking for in those articles, let me know. I have more reference books on my shelves than on-line articles that I can point you to, though that means a lot more typing on my part. Still, I'm willing to do that if there is something in particular you are looking for.

You might want to add Iraneus to the list of those you are reading up on, as he was a student of Polycarp and is another source for citing that John wrote the Gospel of John. And you might enjoy some of these articles on the overall reliabity of the New Testament: http://www.theopedia.com/Historicity..._New_Testament.

[Grace Seeker]

no i'm not saying to throw your bibles, cuz i have a bible with me here, but I'm trying to tell you that the bible is out-of-date version, so you need to update yourself with the Qur'an.

And what do we do when the Bible and the Qur'an disagree? Don't you want us to disregard the teachings found in the Bible and to accept that of the Qur'an? To me that has the same effect as throwing out the Bible. Indeed, while you have a Bible, my daughter (who is a Muslim from Turkey) was taught not to waste her time reading the Bible as it was corrupted and untrustworthy.

[vpb]

Illiterate people are able to function even in our society today. For Muhammad to be illiterate doesn't mean that he could not have been well-versed (even if not well-read) in much other literature. Indeed, it appears that he was knowledgable about much of the world. Being illiterate would not have prevented him from being a human source of the Qur'an if that had been his desire.

there are lot of things, which are in the Qur'an, which at that time people didn't know about. you know what i;m talking about.

And so we not only see that there is blind belief in the Qur'an. But blind acceptance of disbelief in the integrity of the Bible.

Blind belief? Islam is based on knowledge, and we don't believe things which we don't understand, things which can't be explained, everything's clear in Islam. I think you haven;t understood yet the meaning of the word "blind faith".

vpb, I'm not trying to change your view on what you accept of don't accept. .

you can defenitily try to teach trinity and change the people's view in Africa, but not in here. Truth is already clear from error/false. and I would never drop the truth. But if Allah swt wants to misguide me than nobody can stop Him. may Allah guide us on the right path. Ameen.

Surah Al-Baqara 2:256
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

I'm just pointing out that it begins from a faith persepctive of what is and is not trustworthy

yes , nobody's saying faith is not part of it, but we can go and find someone who loves Hitler, and he has faith on the book Mein Kampf, but it does not mean he is right.

You accpet the Qur'an as worthy of placing once faith and trust in it. You do not accept the Bible that way. But the reason you accept them is because you have believed the Qur'an's testimony regarding itself and the Bible. So, you believe because you believe. And then once you believe because you believe, then you can know your beliefs to be true because you have the testimony that they are true, based on the book that you believe in.

I'm not claiming that Christians don't ultimately do the same thing with the Bible.

I was raised in a "muslim family" , where I had no contact with Qur'an whatsoever. very secular family. I've had the chance to choose between christianity and islam so I didn't just say "I want to believe Islam is the best way". No, but I looked through, and I've lived with a baptist pastor for some time, and I've explored christianity, but when you open your heart and really compare both, there is no doubt. and Islam does not tell people just to believe and that's it, but Allah swt tells us, to study, and reflect. So it's not based just "oh my parents believe, i believe the same , or I think this is pleasing me more and that's it". Islam is like the food, you can't no how it tastes till you taste it.

And I'm also saying that when one starts with a belief that we become firmly convicted of being true, your arguments from logic based in a contradictory belief system aren't going any more effective in convincing or even showing a Christian anything than a Christian's arguments in showing a Muslim who is solid in his/her faith anything.

I'm not here to convince, bc when you say convince it means that you achieve to make the person for example accept Islam. but we can't convience people, we can't guide them, we can only deliver the message, and wether you accept it or not, I dont care, that's not mu duty. So at the end of the day, I conveyed the message, that's what I worry about, bc hiding what you know is a great sin in Islam, and I don't want to get that sin inshaAllah.

[vpb]

And what do we do when the Bible and the Qur'an disagree? Don't you want us to disregard the teachings found in the Bible and to accept that of the Qur'an? To me that has the same effect as throwing out the Bible. Indeed, while you have a Bible, my daughter (who is a Muslim from Turkey) was taught not to waste her time reading the Bible as it was corrupted and untrustworthy.

I just don't mind what she said, what she was taught, or whether u throw bible or not. My duty was to convey the message to you. and inshaAllah all those who came on this thread will be witnesses on day of judgement. I just want to get away from the sin of not conveying the message.

[Grace Seeker]

I was raised in a "muslim family" , where I had no contact with Qur'an whatsoever. very secular family. I've had the chance to choose between christianity and islam so I didn't just say "I want to believe Islam is the best way". No, but I looked through, and I've lived with a baptist pastor for some time, and I've explored christianity, but when you open your heart and really compare both, there is no doubt. and Islam does not tell people just to believe and that's it, but Allah swt tells us, to study, and reflect. So it's not based just "oh my parents believe, i believe the same , or I think this is pleasing me more and that's it". Islam is like the food, you can't no how it tastes till you taste it.

And I having basically the parallel experience in my own life, ended up feeling the same way with regard to my faith that you do with regard to yours. (Though I will give you credit for exploring Christianity earlier in your life than I did Islam, which I knew next to nothing about until I was an adult.)

I'm not here to convince, bc when you say convince it means that you achieve to make the person for example accept Islam. but we can't convience people, we can't guide them, we can only deliver the message, and wether you accept it or not, I dont care, that's not mu duty. So at the end of the day, I conveyed the message, that's what I worry about, bc hiding what you know is a great sin in Islam, and I don't want to get that sin inshaAllah.

Well, rest assured, at least with me, that is not a sin you should be found guilty of. May Allah continue to guide you into all truth because I do care what happens to you.

[vpb]

May Allah continue to guide you into all truth.

oohh what a sweet statement :ace:

[Phil12123]

That [my list of 9 points of agreement] pretty accurately summarizes my point of view. Point #5 should be expanded slightly.

5. Muslims are hoping in their belief in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

In addition to the above expansion of no. 5, another post, by vpb, suggested the same one be expanded thusly:

5. Muslims have to do good deeds as much as possible, but they also depend on Allah's mercy for the forgiveness of sins and in getting mercy in general too, so they can enter Heaven, and they don't know wether they go to Heaven or not, till the trial on the day of judgment.

So we can consider those two expansions of no. 5 in context, let me restate the entire 9 points of agreement here:

1. We are all sinners, whether daily or hourly, in word, thought, or deed.

2. Heaven is a perfect place where no sin will ever enter.

3. Without forgiveness of sins, no sinner will ever enter Heaven.

4. No sinner can work enough, or do anything, or be "good" enough, to deserve Heaven.

5. Muslims are hoping in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

6. Christians are relying on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning death for sins, and resurrection, as payment in full for all their sins, in order to receive forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift, here and now and forevermore.

7. According to the Muslim view, Christ did not die on the cross, let alone for anyone's sins. This view is diametrically and irreconcilably opposed to the Christian Gospel that Christ died for our sins and rose again.

8. According to the Christian view, a person who denies the Deity of Christ will die in his sins (John 8:24,58), and be barred from Heaven.

9. According to the Muslim view, believing Christ is God is associating with Allah, the unforgiveable sin that will bar a person from Heaven.

So, MustafaMc has added "belief in One God and striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions)," and vpb has added, doing "good deeds as much as possible."

So, are all the Muslims in agreement that we could rewrite no. 5 to read:

5. Muslims are hoping in their believing in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), doing good deeds as much as possible, and in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day. ?

Peace

[vpb]

yep i think that's a good conclusion. unless anyone has something to say.

[Woodrow]

I agree it is a very good conclusion and I do favor #5 to be rewritten like that. From a factual view it is fair and accurate. I know there will different connotations as to what is meant by it, but there will that, no matter what is written.

[vpb]

well we take in consideration everything.

and to be short, I will just post the Surah Al-Ikhlas which talks about Allah swt.

112:1-4

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.

[vpb]

ok i'm posting the commenting of that surah, just in case you want to know more on detail.






The Reason for the Revelation of this Surah and its Virtues
Imam Ahmad recorded from Ubayy bin Ka`b that the idolators said to the Prophet , "O Muhammad! Tell us the lineage of your Lord.'' So Allah revealed
[قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ - اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ - لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ - وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهُ كُفُواً أَحَدٌ ]
(Say: "He is Allah, One. Allah He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is non comparable to Him.'') Similar was recorded by At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Jarir and they added in their narration that he said,
[الصَّمَدُ]
"(As-Samad) is One Who does not give birth, nor was He born, because there is nothing that is born except that it will die, and there is nothing that dies except that it leaves behind inheritance, and indeed Allah does not die and He does not leave behind any inheritance.
[وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهُ كُفُواً أَحَدٌ ]
(And there is none comparable to Him.) This means that there is none similar to Him, none equal to Him and there is nothing at all like Him.'' Ibn Abi Hatim also recorded it and At-Tirmidhi mentioned it as a Mursal narration. Then At-Tirmidhi said, "And this is the most correct.''



A Hadith on its Virtues
Al-Bukhari reported from `Amrah bint `Abdur-Rahman, who used to stay in the apartment of `A'ishah, the wife of the Prophet , that `A'ishah said, "The Prophet sent a man as the commander of a war expedition and he used to lead his companions in prayer with recitation (of the Qur'an). And he would complete his recitation with the recitation of `Say: He is Allah, One.' So when they returned they mentioned that to the Prophet and he said,
«سَلُوهُ لِأَيِّ شَيْءٍ يَصْنَعُ ذَلِكَ؟»
(Ask him why does he do that.) So they asked him and he said, `Because it is the description of Ar-Rahman and I love to recite it. So the Prophet said,
«أَخْبِرُوهُ أَنَّ اللهَ تَعَالَى يُحِبُّه»
(Inform him that Allah the Most High loves him.)'' This is how Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith in his Book of Tawhid. Muslim and An-Nasa'i also recorded it. In his Book of Salah, Al-Bukhari recorded that Anas said, "A man from the Ansar used to lead the people in prayer in the Masjid of Quba'. Whenever he began a Surah in the recitation of the prayer that he was leading them, he would start by reciting `Say: He is Allah, One' until he completed the entire Surah. Then he would recite another Surah along with it (after it). And used to do this in every Rak`ah. So his companions spoke to him about this saying; `Verily, you begin the prayer with this Surah. Then you think that it is not sufficient for you unless you recite another Surah as well. So you should either recite it or leave it and recite another Surah instead.' The man replied, `I will not leave it off. If you want me to continue leading you (in prayer), I will do this; and if you all do not like it, I will leave you (i.e., I will stop leading you).' They used to consider him to be of the best of them to lead them in prayer and they did not want anyone else to lead them other than him. So, when the Prophet came they informed him of this information and he said,
«يَا فُلَانُ، مَا يَمْنَعُكَ أَنْ تَفْعَلَ مَا يَأْمُرُكَ بِهِ أَصْحَابُكَ، وَمَا حَمَلَكَ عَلَى لُزُوم هَذِهِ السُّورَةِ فِي كُلِّ رَكْعَةٍ؟»
(O so-and-so! What prevents you from doing what your companions are commanding you to do, and what makes you adhere to the recitation of this Surah in every Rak`ah) The man said, `Verily, I love it.' The Prophet replied,
«حُبُّكَ إِيَّاهَا أَدْخَلَكَ الْجَنَّة»
(Your love of it will cause you to enter Paradise.) This was recorded by Al-Bukhari, with a disconnected chain, but in a manner indicating his approval.



A Hadith that mentions this Surah is equivalent to a Third of the Qur'an
Al-Bukhari recorded from Abu Sa`id that a man heard another man reciting
[قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ ]
(Say: "He is Allah, One.'') and he was repeating over and over. So when morning came, the man went to the Prophet and mentioned that to him, and it was as though he was belittling it. The Prophet said,
«وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ إِنَّهَا لَتَعْدِلُ ثُلُثَ الْقُرْآن»
(By He in Whose Hand is my soul, verily it is equivalent to a third of the Qur'an.) Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i also recorded it. Another Hadith Al-Bukhari recorded from Abu Sa`id, may Allah be pleased with him, that the Messenger of Allah said to his Companions,
«أَيَعْجِزُ أَحَدُكُمْ أَنْ يَقْرَأَ ثُلُثَ الْقُرْآنِ فِي لَيْلَةٍ؟»
(Is one of you not able to recite a third of the Qur'an in a single night) This was something that was difficult for them and they said, "Which of us is able to do that, O Messenger of Allah'' So he replied,
«اللهُ الْوَاحِدُ الصَّمَدُ ثُلُثُ الْقُرْآن»
("Allah is the One, As-Samad'' is a third of the Qur'an.) Al-Bukhari was alone in recording this Hadith.



Another Hadith that its Recitation necessitates Admission into Paradise
Imam Malik bin Anas recorded from `Ubayd bin Hunayn that he heard Abu Hurayrah saying, "I went out with the Prophet and he heard a man reciting `Say: He is Allah, the One.' So the Messenger of Allah said,
«وَجَبَت»
(It is obligatory.) I asked, `What is obligatory' He replied,
«الْجَنَّة»
(Paradise.)'' At-Tirmidhi and An-Nasa'i also recorded it by way of Malik, and At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Sahih Gharib. We do not know of it except as a narration of Malik.'' The Hadith in which the Prophet said,
«حُبُّكَ إِيَّاهَا أَدْخَلَكَ الْجَنَّة»
(Your love of it will cause you to enter Paradise.) has already been mentioned.



A Hadith about repeating this Surah
`Abdullah bin Imam Ahmad recorded from Mu`adh bin `Abdullah bin Khubayb, who reported that his father said, "We became thirsty and it had become dark while we were waiting for the Messenger of Allah to lead us in prayer. Then, when he came out he took me by my hand and said,
«قُل»
(Say.) Then he was silent. Then he said again,
«قُل»
(Say.) So I said, `What should I say' He said,
[قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ ]
وَالْمُعَوِّذَتَيْنِ حِينَ تُمْسِي وَحِينَ تُصْبِحُ ثَلَاثًا، تَكْفِكَ كُلَّ يَوْمٍ مَرَّتَيْن»
(Say: "He is Allah, One,'' and the two Surahs of Refuge (Al-Falaq and An-Nas) when you enter upon the evening and the morning three times (each). They will be sufficient for you two times every day.)'' This Hadith was also recorded by Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi and An-Nasa'i. At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Sahih Gharib.'' An-Nasa'i also recorded through another chain of narrators with the wording,
«يَكْفِكَ كُلَّ شَيْء»
(They will suffice you against everything.)



Another Hadith about supplicating with it by Allah's Names
In his Book of Tafsir, An-Nasa'i recorded from `Abdullah bin Buraydah, who reported from his father that he entered the Masjid with the Messenger of Allah , and there was a man praying and supplicating saying, "O Allah! Verily, I ask you by my testifying that there is no God worthy of worship except You. You are the One, the Self-Sufficient Sustainer of all, Who does not give birth, nor were You born, and there is none comparable to Him.'' The Prophet said,
«وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لَقَدْ سَأَلَهُ بِاسْمِهِ الْأَعْظَم، الَّذِي إِذَ


A Hadith about seeking a Cure by these Surahs
Al-Bukhari recorded from `A'ishah that whenever the Prophet would go to bed every night, he would put his palms together and blow into them. Then he would recite into them (his palms), `Say: He is Allah, One', `Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of Al-Falaq', and `Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of mankind.' Then he would wipe whatever he was able to of his body with them (his palms). He would begin wiping his head and face with them and the front part of his body. He would do this (wiping his body) three times. The Sunan compilers also recorded this same Hadith.
[بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَـنِ الرَّحِيمِ ]
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
[قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ - اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ - لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ - وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهُ كُفُواً أَحَدٌ ]
(1. Say: "He is Allah, One.'') (2. "Allah As-Samad.'') (3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten.'') (4. "And there is none comparable to Him.'') The reason for the revelation of this Surah has already been mentioned. `Ikrimah said, "When the Jews said, `We worship `Uzayr, the son of Allah,' and the Christians said, `We worship the Messiah (`Isa), the son of Allah,' and the Zoroastrians said, `We worship the sun and the moon,' and the idolators said, `We worship idols,' Allah revealed to His Messenger ,
[قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ ]
(Say: "He is Allah, One.'') meaning, He is the One, the Singular, Who has no peer, no assistant, no rival, no equal and none comparable to Him. This word (Al-Ahad) cannot be used for anyone in affirmation except Allah the Mighty and Majestic, because He is perfect in all of His attributes and actions. Concerning His saying,
[اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ ]
(Allah As-Samad.) `Ikrimah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "This means the One Who all of the creation depends upon for their needs and their requests.'' `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported from Ibn `Abbas, "He is the Master Who is perfect in His sovereignty, the Most Noble Who is perfect in His nobility, the Most Magnificent Who is perfect in His magnificence, the Most Forbearing Who is perfect in His forbearance, the All-Knowing Who is perfect in His knowledge, and the Most Wise Who is perfect in His wisdom. He is the One Who is perfect in all aspects of nobility and authority. He is Allah, glory be unto Him. These attributes are not befitting anyone other than Him. He has no coequal and nothing is like Him. Glory be to Allah, the One, the Irresistible.'' Al-A`mash reported from Shaqiq, who said that Abu Wa'il said,
[الصَّمَدُ]
(As-Samad.) is the Master Whose control is complete.''



Allah is Above having Children and procreating
Then Allah says,
[لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ - وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهُ كُفُواً أَحَدٌ ]
(He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is none comparable to Him.) meaning, He does not have any child, parent or spouse. Mujahid said,
[وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهُ كُفُواً أَحَدٌ ]
(And there is none comparable to Him.) "This means He does not have a spouse.'' This is as Allah says,
[بَدِيعُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُنْ لَّهُ صَـحِبَةٌ وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ]
(He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife He created all things.) (6:101) meaning, He owns everything and He created everything. So how can He have a peer among His creatures who can be equal to Him, or a relative who can resemble Him Glorified, Exalted and far removed is Allah from such a thing. Allah says,
[وَقَالُواْ اتَّخَذَ الرَّحْمَـنُ وَلَداً - لَقَدْ جِئْتُمْ شَيْئاً إِدّاً - تَكَادُ السَّمَـوَتُ يَتَفَطَّرْنَ مِنْهُ وَتَنشَقُّ الاٌّرْضُ وَتَخِرُّ الْجِبَالُ هَدّاً - أَن دَعَوْا لِلرَّحْمَـنِ وَلَداً - وَمَا يَنبَغِى لِلرَّحْمَـنِ أَن يَتَّخِذَ وَلَداً - إِن كُلُّ مَن فِى السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ إِلاَّ آتِى الرَّحْمَـنِ عَبْداً - لَّقَدْ أَحْصَـهُمْ وَعَدَّهُمْ عَدّاً - وَكُلُّهُمْ ءَاتِيهِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ فَرْداً ]
(And they say: Ar-Rahman has begotten a son. Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing. Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, that they ascribe a son to Ar-Rahman. But it is not suitable for Ar-Rahman that He should beget a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto Ar-Rahman as a slave. Verily, He knows each one of them, and has counted them a full counting. And all of them will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection.) (19:88-95) And Allah says,
[وَقَالُواْ اتَّخَذَ الرَّحْمَـنُ وَلَداً سُبْحَانَهُ بَلْ عِبَادٌ مُّكْرَمُونَ - لاَ يَسْبِقُونَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ وَهُمْ بِأَمْرِهِ يَعْمَلُونَ ]
(And they say: "Ar-Rahman has begotten a son. Glory to Him! They are but honored servants. They speak not until He has spoken, and they act on His command.) (21:26-27) Allah also says,
[وَجَعَلُواْ بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَ الْجِنَّةِ نَسَباً وَلَقَدْ عَلِمَتِ الجِنَّةُ إِنَّهُمْ لَمُحْضَرُونَ ]
سُبْحَـنَ اللَّهِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ-]
(And they have invented a kinship between Him and the Jinn, but the Jinn know well that they have indeed to appear before Him. Glorified is Allah! (He is free) from what they attribute unto Him!) (37:158-159) In Sahih Al-Bukhari, it is recorded (that that the Prophet said),
«لَا أَحَدَ أَصْبَرُ عَلَى أَذًى سَمِعَهُ مِنَ اللهِ، يَجْعَلُونَ لَهُ وَلَدًا، وَهُوَ يَرْزُقُهُمْ وَيُعَافِيهِم»
(There is no one more patient with something harmful that he hears than Allah. They attribute a son to Him, while it is He Who gives them sustenance and cures them.) Al-Bukhari also recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,
«قَالَ اللهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ: كَذَّبَنِي ابْنُ آدَمَ وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ ذَلِكَ، وَشَتَمَنِي وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ ذَلِكَ، فَأَمَّا تَكْذِيبُهُ إِيَّايَ فَقَوْلُهُ: لَنْ يُعِيدَنِي كَمَا بَدَأَنِي، وَلَيْسَ أَوَّلُ الْخَلْقِ بِأَهْوَنَ عَلَيَّ مِنْ إِعَادَتِهِ، وَأَمَّا شَتْمُهُ إِيَّايَ فَقَوْلُهُ: اتَّخَذَ اللهُ وَلَدًا، وَأَنَا الْأَحَدُ الصَّمَدُ، لَمْ أَلِدْ وَلَمْ أُولَدْ، وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِي كُفُوًا أَحَد»
(Allah the Mighty and Majestic says, "The Son of Adam denies Me and he has no right to do so, and he abuses Me and he has no right to do so. In reference to his denial of Me, it is his saying: `He (Allah) will never re-create me like He created me before.' But the re-creation of him is easier than his original creation. As for his cursing Me, it is his saying: `Allah has taken a son.' But I am the One, the Self-Sufficient Master. I do not give birth, nor was I born, and there is none comparable to Me.'') This is the end of the Tafsir of Surat Al-Ikhlas, and all praise and blessings are due to Allah.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;


In another forum , a Christian told me , what Christians write about Muhammed (p) & what Muslims write about Jesus (p) is same type. I told him , no. It’s not the same .


Many Christians write to degrade Muhammed (p). When Muslims write about Jesus (p) , we do it with love & respect. We don’t write that he is God & it’s not to show disrespect but show the due respect to both God & Jesus (p).

We believe , after the second coming of Jesus (p) , he will deny to accept the worship of Christians & on the last day , worshippers of human being & angel will get punishment for blasphemy.

I hope , Christian participants here do understand that Muslims RESPECT Jesus (p) …..yes , I understand , u think it’s not enough to respect him only …he deserves more….worship…but we want to save it only for our Creator. We have No intention to insult God or Jesus (p ) or holy Spirit (p).


I was looking for Zakir Naik's lecture where he gave some ref on how some verses regarding Jesus (p) is removed from Bible. I did not get what I looked for but got this one.


It’s from a Christian site…at least it appears to do so.


Which Bible verses did the NIV delete?


What are you NIV readers missing? What does the real Bible say?


"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."


This is one of the GREATEST verses testifying of the trinity. That is why the Jehovah's Witnesses leave it out. They do not believe in the trinity and they do not believe that Jesus is God. Why does the NIV leave it out...?



Whole books have been written on the manuscript evidence that supports inclusion of this verse in the Bible. Reader, do you believe in the triunity of God? If so, then this deletion should offend you.


People are playing around with the Bible and it ain't funny.


________________________________________
NIV Reader: Do you have enough confidence in the NIV to...
tell God, OUT LOUD, that these verses do not belong in the Bible?
If not, you need to get a King James so you can have some confidence

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible...tes_verses.htm



ok , i just saw anther Christian site where they are telling readers to be cautious about bogus bible.....Strange....when Muslimls claim that Bible has been changed , normally Christians protoest but these info are from their sites.......they are accusing other Christians to play with Bible.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/B-BIBLES.HTM#bogusbibles

First off I would like to list the verses that I have so far found TOTALLY OMITTED or BRACKETED in the NIV and NASB.

(Bracketed is to say it should NOT be accepted as "of God") Then I would like to share quite a few verses that have been "re-written, altered, twisted, and cut up" in the NIV and NASB.

The reason I am sharing the truth about the NIV and NASB and not all the other corrupted Bibles as well, is because these two appear to be the most popular today.



There are others that are corrupted as well and I pray the Lord reveals this to those of you that trust these "Bogus Bibles."


**

Hope i did not hurt Christians feelings.....i want to know. My question is : if Bible is from God , why so many verses are removed from Bible by Christians ? I also read long ago that many verses are returning back in some versions…how is that ?



verses of the Day from Quran :



Surah 25

Al-Furqan

And on the Day when He will gather them together and that which they worship besides God [idols, angels, pious men, saints, 'Iesa (Jesus) -- son of Maryam (Mary), etc.].



He will say: "Was it you who misled these My slaves or did they (themselves) stray from the (Right) Path?"


They will say: "Glorified be You! It was not for us to take any Auliyâ' (Protectors, Helpers, etc.) besides You,


but You gave them and their fathers comfort till they forgot the warning, and became a lost people (doomed to total loss).



Thus they (false gods all deities other than God) will give you (polytheists) the lie regarding what you say (that they are gods besides God), then you can neither avert (the punishment), nor get help.


And whoever among you does wrong (i.e. sets up rivals to God), We shall make him taste a great torment.( 25: 17-19 )


Verse of the day from Bible :

"My Father is greater than I."

[ John 14:28]

[vpb]

Many Christians write to degrade Muhammed (p). When Muslims write about Jesus (p) , we do it with love & respect. We don’t write that he is God & it’s not to show disrespect but show the due respect to both God & Jesus (p).

yeah, exactly. bc when you say jesus is son of God, you are doing injustice to God, and also to Jesus, bc he never claimed this, so when you say that , you basically are altering Jesus's words. Love is not just saying "I love you", but love towards someone is when you are being just, respectful etc. to him/her.

[Redeemed]

we believe that he did the things you mentioned. We really do believe in his miracles. but it was his miracles, that God gave to him , so he could prove to people that he is a indeed a Messenger of Allah. All the prophets came with miracles, so these were miracles that were performed by Jesus.

La ilahe il-allah wahdahu la sharika la.

this is another if I can call, an extension of shahada that we usually say which means

There is no diety of worship but Allah, without rivals or partners.
:)

Well, what about Jesus doing and saying things that only God can do like forgive sins? Only God is cable of that. Jesus did that. He said different things to individuals like "Your sins are forgiven" and your sins are forgiven you go and sin no more" I do not condemn you. God said in the Old Testament "I am God, there is no other, and I will not share my glory with another" Jesus perform acts that only God can do, which bears witness that He is the son of God. God didn't consider Him to be another. Only God can forgive sin no prophet ever claimed such authority. Our shahada is: There is only one God and Jesus is the Son of God. It is written "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. Those who pierced Him will be ashamed. Jesus said, You will die in your sins, because you do not believe I am He." He that has the Son has life; he that has not the son has not life but the wrath of God abides on him! :phew :raging: :cry:

[vpb]

Well, what about Jesus doing and saying things that only God can do like forgive sins? Only God is cable of that. Jesus did that. He said different things to individuals like "Your sins are forgiven" and your sins are forgiven you go and sin no more" I do not condemn you. God said in the Old Testament "I am God there is no other and I will not share my glory with another" Jesus perform acts that only God can do bear witness that He is the son of God and God didn't consider Him to be another. Only God can forgive sin no prove ever claimed such authority. Our shahada is: There is only one God and Jesus is the Son of God. It is written "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. Those who pierced Him will be ashamed. He that has the Son has life; he that has not the son has not life but the wrath of God abides on him!

if you follow bible, he did. but in reality he didn't. because he was just a messenger of Allah, sent with Injeel and with miracles to correct people who altered the Torah.He did miracles with permission of Allah, as other Prophets did (ie. Moses splitted the sea) but if you want to believe that he forgived sins, and that he is son of God, you are free to do that. Allah swt gave choice to each one of us. :)

Surah Kafiroon 109:6
To you be your Way, and to me mine.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

..... Our shahada is: There is only one God and Jesus is the Son of God.

u forgot to mention holy Spirit in ur Shahada ......& remember , sin against holy Spirit won't be forgiven regarding ur holy book. So , do include him.

[Redeemed]

if you follow bible, he did. but in reality he didn't. because he was just a messenger of Allah, sent with Injeel and with miracles to correct people who altered the Torah.He did miracles with permission of Allah, as other Prophets did (ie. Moses splitted the sea) but if you want to believe that he forgived sins, and that he is son of God, you are free to do that. Allah swt gave choice to each one of us. :)

Surah Kafiroon 109:6
To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Jer33 Behold, In those days saith the Lord I will cause a Branch of righteous to sit on Davids throne (JESUS) and He shall execute justice and His name wherewith HE will be called is the Lord our righteosness. That is the name above all names. He is my righteousness. That is why I boast. I am rich because Jesus became poor for me. I will fear not what man can do or say to me. This is not my way - it is His!

[vpb]

Jer33 Behold, In those days saith the Lord I will cause a Branch of righteous to sit on Davids throne (JESUS) and He shall execute justice and His name wherewith HE will be called is the Lord our righteosness. That is the name above all names. He is my righteousness. That is why I boast. I am rich because Jesus became poor for me. I will fear not what man can do or say to me. This is not my way - it is His!

good, we understand each other.
now you go your way, I go my way :p ;D

[MustafaMc]

Since the Christian Bible is made up of numerous books, 66 if I'm not mistaken, there wasn't one name for all of them. They all have their own names. So the Greek word "Biblos" was used to name the entirety of these books when they came together in one. It wouldn't make any sense for the word "Bible" to appear in the Bible.

Actually, the Bible as decided upon (I tkink) around 390 A.D. at the Council of Hippo, and still exists in the Catholic Bible, has an additional 7 OT books as compared to the Protestant Bible.

The point, I think, is that Quran mentions itself by name in the Quran.

[Phil12123]

Actually, the Bible as decided upon (I tkink) around 390 A.D. at the Council of Hippo, and still exists in the Catholic Bible, has an additional 7 OT books as compared to the Protestant Bible.

The point, I think, is that Quran mentions itself by name in the Quran.

I think the Book of Mormon mentions itself in itself too. Therefore...what? That makes it authentic or more believable or...what?

Actually, that means NOTHING!!!!!!!

[syilla]

http://www.islamictube.net/view_vide...key=1889828421

some explaination

May Allah guide us.

[Grace Seeker]

well we take in consideration everything.

and to be short, I will just post the Surah Al-Ikhlas which talks about Allah swt.

112:1-4

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.

Wonderful. You have answered well the question, "Who is Allah to Muslims?" Unfortunately that is not the topic of this thread.

[vpb]

Wonderful. You have answered well the question, "Who is Allah to Muslims?" Unfortunately that is not the topic of this thread.

Since the Surah talks about Allah I wanted to post it just te clarify the point that you made on:

The point is that this is exactly what Christians believe too. The point of contention is not:

How gods there are? one and only one
Does God have any partners, rivals or associates? no

The point of contention is: Who is God?

And what Christians say --that Muslims will never accept and that Christians must confess-- is that Allah was himself incarnate in Jesus. Jesus and Allah are one and the very same, there is no distinction between them. Which is why for the Qur'an to say that Allah says that Jesus is just a prophet and nothing more proves to Christians that the Qur'an couldn't really be from Allah, but an imposter. For Christians, it is the Qur'an that speaks against itself by its very claims (or shall I say counter-claims) with regard to Jesus Christ, the one true God who came down from heaven and tabernacled among his creation in the flesh as they are in the flesh, and then offered his own life to pay the punishment for their sins so that he might reconcile them to himself. This is the word of God that has been hand down to us from those who met Jesus personally and any book that denies these truths from those who met Jesus face-to-face (including Paul) is to be doubted.

I have tried many times to say who the Trinity is to Christians -- it is a label used to describe our mutlifaceted experience of the manifestation of the one God. But I keep failing at doing it in a way that Muslims seem to be capable of understanding what we are saying.

And, even though the question only asks us to articulate who the Trinity is for us, and does not ask us to explain why we believe it to be true, it just asks us to state what it is we believe with regard to the Trinity, it seems some Muslims want to come back and argue that Christians believe in something other than what we say we believe in. So, let me try to say who the Trinity is the Muslims.

I believe that to the Muslim mind the Trinity is blasphemous.

and there is no need for such a thread, bc muslims already know who is Allah, and his attributes.

[tears4husain]

:sl: in reply to the statement by Alapiana1. I understand your sincerity and concern, but Islam is foreign to most christians so they really dont understand us muslims, and alot of muslims come from christianity so we understand both sides. Alot of people hold bias thoughts towards something that contradicts or goes against what they believe. Eventhough we both come from the teachings of Abrahim(a.s.) we still could never pray together unless some one compromises their belief. They pray in name of their lord Jesus Christ,we pray in the name of the one God.Plus stereostypes bring on more biasness and hatred. There are alot of elements that brings us together and also alot of elements that rips us apart from each other. Morally muslims are monotheist, christians are not. The bible lead a vass majority of muslims to Islam,So we believe in the bible, but they say we dont accept it. Thats part of usol-e-deen(pillars of faith). I'm not trying to point a finger at any one but alot of the confusion comes from those who dont understand the opposite. Some times the aggressors dont understand their selves nor where they come from. So maybe if we take out more time to learn who we are and where we come from as believers in GOD we won't have these problems, because we all will have the truth except those whose eyes God will not unveil.:w:

[NoName55]

In other words one is allowed to assume any position/anthing and everything as long as it helps put them nasty mozlems in their place. All is fair in love and war and all that jazz:thumbs_up

okey dokey carry on!

[Trumble]

In other words one is allowed to assume any position/anthing and everything as long as it helps put them nasty mozlems in their place. All is fair in love and war and all that jazz:thumbs_up

okey dokey carry on!

In other words you really need to go back and read the previous posts again. The only assumption that I made, for the sake of argument, is one that both muslims and Christians would agree with. I'm puzzled as to why you would object to that. Without making that assumption the whole question being discussed is completely meaningless.

If, for some reason, you believe that not being either a muslim or a Christian somehow disqualifies me from commenting on a 'muslim v Christian' issue, your are quite entitled to say so. I disagree and will, indeed, "carry on", with no intention of putting anybody "in their place". The purpose of 'comparative religion', IMHO, is rather more than paraphrasing "my religion is great but yours sucks" ad infinitum. Rather more than trying to show somebody else's religion is 'wrong' and yours is 'right', with no intention whatsoever of even trying to understand the other point of view. If that's your thing, though.. "carry on"! :)

[Woodrow]

A man cannot have more love than to lay down his life for a friend. That is what Jesus did for us. There is no comfort zone being a Christian. It is a call to die to your own fleshly desires and live holy and righteously before God. I cannot do this. With man it is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible.
peace

A comfort zone is not necessarily physically comfortable, it is what a person feels they understand.

[MustafaMc]

Not hell and not wrath. That is what Christians are saved from. But the "fear of the Lord" for the Christian is more of a reverence and holy respect, as a child has respect for his parents. Why? Because if he doesn't and if he disobeys, he can expect a corrective spanking. In scripture, the "spanking" is called "chastening" or "chastisement" as seen from the following passage:
...

That is a huge difference that I see between Christianity and Islam---the relationship between the believers and their God. For the Christian, the relationship is a spiritual adoption into the family of God, whereby the new believer becomes a newborn child of God, heir of all things, joint-heir with Jesus Christ. He has a new (spiritual) daddy---God Himself, as Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father, Who is in heaven...." Before that they are just children of Adam, or worse, children of the devil, as Jesus called the religious leaders who rejected Him (John 8:44). As children of God, believers can know and approach their heavenly Father for all their needs just as our own small children can know and approach us.

By contrast, Muslim believers are not permitted to consider Allah as their heavenly Father in any sense. He is more their Judge, someone to indeed fear because they have no assurance of his mercy or of their eternal destiny. They may pin their hopes on the Quranic verses that say over and over that Allah is merciful and forgiving, but they still don't know if that is how it will turn out in their own individual cases.

And then there is the element of LOVE. The Bible says, "God is love" (1 John 4:8). But one Quran that I have has an index that goes from page 425 to page 452---27 pages---without a single listing for "love." I had to go online to do a search for "love" in the Quran. And when I did, I did find over 80 verses that include the word "love." But what I also found is that no where does the Quran say that God loves sinners and is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (like 2 Pet. 3:9). In fact, the picture I got was that Allah loves doers of good deeds but doesn't love doers of bad deeds. Now, that seems normal and good, because God hates sin. But from a biblical viewpoint, He loves the sinner but hates the sin. And then He DID something to provide for the sinner's forgiveness of sin by sending Jesus to die for it. Not so with the Quran.

So those are two things that I find very unattractive in Islam. No sense of a heavenly Father and no sense that as such He loves me as His child. Maybe you can do without either, but not me. I'm thankful I don't have to.

Peace

This was a well put response.

Yes, a difference between Islam and Christianity is the certainty of salvation. A Muslim has a combination of hope in the promises of Allah for paradise, but he also has the fear of Allah's wrath because of the uncertainty of how our deeds and intentions will stand in the final analysis. Certainly, one of the biggest concerns we Muslims have is commiting the small shirk by doing good deeds for show or the praise and approval of others rather than Allah. I can't judge my own faith or deeds or intentions, because Allah knows them better than I know myself.

I would have to agree somewhat with the lack of a "Father" type relationship with Allah. Personally, I have tremendous love for Allah that he chose me out of so many millions of Americans to show me the Truth of Islam with the hope for forgiveness and the promise of Paradise. It truly humbles me and brings tears to my eyes that with all of my sins and shortcomings that Allah had tremendous mercy on me to lead me to His Light. To me Allah is beyond my understanding and I don't impose human emotions on Him. I strive to obey Him as shown by Prophet Muhammad as my role model.

[MustafaMc]

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Have you ever heard of the Mercy of Allah. Well, it's a wonderful thing......

Have you ever heard of the wrath and justice of God? It is a fearfull thing to fall into the hands of the living God with no covering for your sin. You are on your own bc U choose so. The soul that is not covered by the blood of the Lamb of God is out of reach from GOD'S mercy because it is God's standard.

Yes, I have hope in the Mercy of Allah and fear of the Wrath of Allah. Islamic faith is a balance between the two. Rather than the covering of my sin by the blood of the Lamb of God, I rely upon the Mercy of Allah and I believe that He is willing and able to forgive them as long as I associate no one or thing with Him in worship.

[vpb]

He is more their Judge, someone to indeed fear because they have no assurance of his mercy or of their eternal destiny. They may pin their hopes on the Quranic verses that say over and over that Allah is merciful and forgiving, but they still don't know if that is how it will turn out in their own individual cases.

you should be ashamed that you are using the oxygen to fill your lungs with air, and you still say that we don't know about his mercy?? there unaccountable things which Allah gave to you as mercy and u still doubt on his mercy????. if Allah wouldn't have mercy, you wouldn't exist even for a second, due to the kufr that you commit.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 475: Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari:
The Prophet said, "None is more patient than Allah against the harmful and annoying words He hears (from the people): They ascribe children to Him, yet He bestows upon them health and provision .

For the Christian, the relationship is a spiritual adoption into the family of God, whereby the new believer becomes a newborn child of God, heir of all things, joint-heir with Jesus Christ. He has a new (spiritual) daddy---God Himself, as Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father, Who is in heaven...." Before that they are just children of Adam, or worse, children of the devil, as Jesus called the religious leaders who rejected Him (John 8:44). As children of God, believers can know and approach their heavenly Father for all their needs just as our own small children can know and approach us.

philosofies, you need to live more in reality, cuz u'r living in dreams dude. wake up.

And then there is the element of LOVE. The Bible says, "God is love" (1 John 4:8). But one Quran that I have has an index that goes from page 425 to page 452---27 pages---without a single listing for "love." I had to go online to do a search for "love" in the Quran. And when I did, I did find over 80 verses that include the word "love." But what I also found is that no where does the Quran say that God loves sinners and is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (like 2 Pet. 3:9). In fact, the picture I got was that Allah loves doers of good deeds but doesn't love doers of bad deeds. Now, that seems normal and good, because God hates sin. But from a biblical viewpoint, He loves the sinner but hates the sin. And then He DID something to provide for the sinner's forgiveness of sin by sending Jesus to die for it. Not so with the Quran.

u expect Allah to love you? after the kufr that you commit every single second of your life??? you should appriciate that at least he is leaving you to live in peace. but wallahi we are muslims and witness on day of judgment, for the distortion that you are doing to God, and misjuding his mercy and his justice. and judging what he should do. maybe if you start worship Allah without partners, Allah will love you. I get frustrated when I see people joining partnership to Allah subhanau we teala, let alone Allah Himself who is the Lord of the World, and created u and me and everything, and u , a creature that if you go 20 kilometers outside earth, u can't be seen, starts being arrogant to God, and assign him partners (saying he has begotten a child) . but as hadith states:

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 501: Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "When Allah created the Creation, He wrote in His Book--and He wrote (that) about Himself, and it is placed with Him on the Throne--'Verily My Mercy overcomes My Anger.'"

[Woodrow]

With this I say good night. I have eastern time. My experience and knowldge of the Scriptures tells me. That if there is a lack of comfort due to a lack of peace in a decision you or anyone makes concerning something special, it is good to do nothing than to operate out of what you don't have the faith for. You see, it is the devil that pushes you into a direction or decisions, but the Lord leads his sheep gently. I am one of his sheep and I am very comfortable and safe, and that is a very good thing when you have eternity in mind.
peace

Very true.
Allah(swt) is a gentle but firm guide. He has given us the freedom to choose as we desire and He has shown us the path our actions will lead us too. He has given us very specific guidelines as to how to follow the path that will lead us to eternal happiness and He has told us of the consequences if we choose to stray from that path on a sight seeing excursion.

He has given us this life as a trial in order to prepare us for eternity. some of us will fail at the trial and face the reality of being a drop out.

It is my desire to serve Allah(swt) and to be one of his slaves. Not because I am worthy of or can earn Heaven but simply because I am commanded to worship and serve Him. I need no reason to serve Allah(swt) other than the knowledge that I know He wants me to worship Him and to serve Him. Serving Him joyfully is the only reward I need. Yet, in spite of that Allah(swt) has promised that He will be Just and Merciful on judgment day. I am joyful with leaving my future up to the will of Allah(swt) No matter what becomes of me I know it will be what Allah(swt) knows to be best. Inshallah (May God's(swt) will be done)

[Grace Seeker]

For the Christian, the relationship is a spiritual adoption into the family of God, whereby the new believer becomes a newborn child of God, heir of all things, joint-heir with Jesus Christ. He has a new (spiritual) daddy---God Himself, as Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father, Who is in heaven...." Before that they are just children of Adam, or worse, children of the devil, as Jesus called the religious leaders who rejected Him (John 8:44). As children of God, believers can know and approach their heavenly Father for all their needs just as our own small children can know and approach us.

philosofies, you need to live more in reality, cuz u'r living in dreams dude. wake up.

What phil is saying is what makes Christianity different from either Judaism or Islam. The Christian faith is not about duty but relationship. That's why the questions from our Muslim brothers about what langauge did Jesus speak, do we have his exact words, the corruption through mistakes in copying of the Bible, while understandably essential to you (and even somewhat important to us), are not key to our faith. For one can have all of this, believe it and practice it even and still not be a Christian if not living in a relationship with God in and through Jesus Christ. And without that life is (in our experience at least) meaningless in comparison to what it is to have the relationship we have with God because of our relationship with Christ.

In fact it is so important to us, that I often wonder if my Muslim friends who report that they were raised Christian, somehow missed this key element in their spiritual nurturance and were only exposed to the form of Christianity without its substance. For absent this experience of coming to know (as in the sense of having intimacy) God in and through Christ on the personal level, Christianity would be a rather hollow and empty religiion. But with it, it is so life changing and satisfying, I have a hard time imagining that anyone who has ever fully experienced it would walk away from it.

If Phil is like me, hearing your strongest warnings remind us of why I am Christain. I know that I cannot stand before God on my own. But I know also that I have put my trust in one in whom I can depend, Jesus Christ the Righteous One who has come to redeem and save me for this exact purpose. When I face the judgment you speak of, Christ will be there with me. I have put is trust in him not for this life only, but for the world to come as well. Praise be to God who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ, my Lord. AMEN.

[Woodrow]

What phil is saying is what makes Christianity different from either Judaism or Islam. The Christian faith is not about duty but relationship. That's why the questions from our Muslim brothers about what langauge did Jesus speak, do we have his exact words, the corruption through mistakes in copying of the Bible, while understandably essential to you (and even somewhat important to us), are not key to our faith. For one can have all of this, believe it and practice it even and still not be a Christian if not living in a relationship with God in and through Jesus Christ. And without that life is (in our experience at least) meaningless in comparison to what it is to have the relationship we have with God because of our relationship with Christ.

In fact it is so important to us, that I often wonder if my Muslim friends who report that they were raised Christian, somehow missed this key element in their spiritual nurturance and were only exposed to the form of Christianity without its substance. For absent this experience of coming to know (as in the sense of having intimacy) God in and through Christ on the personal level, Christianity would be a rather hollow and empty religiion. But with it, it is so life changing and satisfying, I have a hard time imagining that anyone who has ever fully experienced it would walk away from it.

If Phil is like me, hearing your strongest warnings remind us of why I am Christain. I know that I cannot stand before God on my own. But I know also that I have put my trust in one in whom I can depend, Jesus Christ the Righteous One who has come to redeem and save me for this exact purpose. When I face the judgment you speak of, Christ will be there with me. I have put is trust in him not for this life only, but for the world to come as well. Praise be to God who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ, my Lord. AMEN.

Peace Gene,

It is very difficult for a Christian to understand how and why a Christian would revert to Islam. What would it take for a Christian to give up the joy of a Personal Relationship with Jesus(as) and the guaranteed assurance of salvation? Why would a Christian willingly throw all of this away and jump into something with no assurance about anything, have to learn a new language and give up what they believe to be all chances of redemption?

It would take some very strong feelings and a very deep reassurance that nothing is lost and all is gained to make that leap. I doubt if many "weak" Christians would take that leap. A Christian that is weak in his faith as a Christian would probably be weak in faith even after reverting to Islam. A revert does not see his reversion as giving up Christianity a revert sees it as doing what Jesus(as) really told us to do and that is to worship the One True God(as) and to serve only Him. Although I only spent about 25 years as a member of a Christian denomination, I did believe Christianity held the truth and my life was a search to find the message Jesus(as) wanted people to learn. At no time did I ever loose love of Jesus(as) or the feeling of his word. Although I did learn to doubt the truth of the Churches that professed Christianity.

You will hear many reverts say that it is the love of Jesus(as) that first led them to Islam and it is only as a Muslim they became the Christian, Christ(as) wanted them to become. A Christian should love God(swt) above all things and even above the beautiful messenger that showed them the word of God(swt). Christ(as) was the key to heaven in that he brought the truth that unlocked the door. That truth was the Injil. Sadly people threw the truth away and began worshiping the key.

It is by loving Jesus and searching for what he truly said that a Christian will find Islam. As a Christian I learned to love Isa(as) as a Muslim I got to know him and learn what his message really was. Isa(as) gave me a beautiful message as to the mercy of Allah(swt) it was from the words of Isa(as) that I first heard of the justice and mercy of Allah(swt) and it is as a Muslim I learned to place all of my trust in Allah(swt). I have no fear of the future because I know fully that Allah(swt) will grant me all of the mercy imaginable, I do know that in the event I find myself in Hellfire it is the result of my own choices and yet I see even that as a joyous occasion as I know that it is the will of God(swt). My only desire is to do the will of Allah(swt) there is no need for anything else and even the greatest pleasure possible would be but a mere speck in comparision of knowing the will of Allah(swt) is being done.

I have faith and full knowledge that Allah(swt) is capable of all things and that his will, will be done. I do have fear of the wrath of Allah(swt) but I do know that his wrath is just and metered out for the best of all. Whatever happens to me is of no concern as I know it will be the Best Allah(swt) desires and I do trust in his wisdom and judgment.

To me it is no longer a question of why a Christian would revert to Islam it is a question of "How can a person truly love and follow Jesus(as) and not revert to Islam?"

[vpb]

What phil is saying is what makes Christianity different from either Judaism or Islam. The Christian faith is not about duty but relationship. That's why the questions from our Muslim brothers about what langauge did Jesus speak, do we have his exact words, the corruption through mistakes in copying of the Bible, while understandably essential to you (and even somewhat important to us), are not key to our faith. For one can have all of this, believe it and practice it even and still not be a Christian if not living in a relationship with God in and through Jesus Christ. And without that life is (in our experience at least) meaningless in comparison to what it is to have the relationship we have with God because of our relationship with Christ.

so wether bible is corrupted or u have no information about Jesus what he spoke or ...... is not a key point of your faith??? so are you telling me that you have blind faith??

I know that I cannot stand before God on my own.

of course you can't, cuz you live all your life how ever u want cuz u know that Jesus pays for it all. that's why you're not prepared and you have not prepared anything.

But I know also that I have put my trust in one in whom I can depend, Jesus Christ the Righteous One who has come to redeem and save me for this exact purpose.

save you?? He will be worried about himself, not you. but that's how Shaitan tries to misguide people through 'free stuff' . Bc even in our life, people tend to get things which are free. like they go gambling, why? bc they think they will earn something without giving anything. and they lose everything. You achieve something only with working. this is the main, basic principal of our life, animal's life etc.

When I face the judgment you speak of, Christ will be there with me.

yes, I will be there also, Jesus is gonna be there also, Wodroow is gonna be there also, but the thing is that I will not even know or care about you or wodrow, or anyone, cuz I'm gonna be worried about myself, you will be worried for yourslef, Jesus will be worried about himself, Wodroow will be worried about him self, and every single creature on this earth.

Praise be to God who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ, my Lord. AMEN.

plain shirk.

[vpb]

Praise be to God who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ, my Lord. AMEN.

why do u need to be on judgmeent when Jesus has already saved you?

[Phil12123]

It is interesting to see the difference between the responses to my last post. On the one hand, Grace Seeker, a Christian, understands completely and adds edifying words to it, further explaining the Christian position. Of the Muslim responders, Woodrow and MustafaMc also show a degree of understanding and grace. Then there is vpb. He seems full of venom, ready to accuse and condemn, with words I have no understanding of (perhaps Muslim words, like "kufr"). Let me say to vpb, take a lesson from your Muslim brothers. Read their responses and compare theirs with yours. See any difference? Or do you just think you're "telling it like it is"?

Colossians 4:6 says, "Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one."

Ephesians 4:29 says, "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers."

I hope I am obeying those, too. If not, you are invited to remind me of them. I am never above correction.

Peace

[Woodrow]

It is interesting to see the difference between the responses to my last post. On the one hand, Grace Seeker, a Christian, understands completely and adds edifying words to it, further explaining the Christian position. Of the Muslim responders, Woodrow and MustafaMc also show a degree of understanding and grace. Then there is vpb. He seems full of venom, ready to accuse and condemn, with words I have no understanding of (perhaps Muslim words, like "kufr"). Let me say to vpb, take a lesson from your Muslim brothers. Read their responses and compare theirs with yours. See any difference? Or do you just think you're "telling it like it is"?

Colossians 4:6 says, "Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one."

Ephesians 4:29 says, "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers."

I hope I am obeying those, too. If not, you are invited to remind me of them. I am never above correction.

Peace

Peace Phil,

Keep in mind we are all from different backgrounds. A persons responses will tend to be a reflection of what a person has seen. When a person responds to any of us in a manner we see as harsh, I like to assume it is because we do not understand each other.

The word Kufir would have to be heard in person and not read to understand what is meant by it. To an Arabic speaker it carries simply the connotation of being non-Muslim. Although some people in the Western world that speak limited Arabic have begun using it in a derogatory manner and as a label instead of a statement of fact. So you would have to hear the tone of a persons voice to determine if it is meant as a derogatory comment or as a simple fact.

[vpb]

It is interesting to see the difference between the responses to my last post. On the one hand, Grace Seeker, a Christian, understands completely and adds edifying words to it, further explaining the Christian position. Of the Muslim responders, Woodrow and MustafaMc also show a degree of understanding and grace. Then there is vpb. He seems full of venom, ready to accuse and condemn, with words I have no understanding of (perhaps Muslim words, like "kufr"). Let me say to vpb, take a lesson from your Muslim brothers. Read their responses and compare theirs with yours. See any difference? Or do you just think you're "telling it like it is"?

Colossians 4:6 says, "Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one."

Ephesians 4:29 says, "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers."

I hope I am obeying those, too. If not, you are invited to remind me of them. I am never above correction.

ye i know, you want to tell me that my posts are rude, but you have also to think before you accusse Allah swt that He has a lack of mercy. if you condem my Lord and your Lord then of course I accusse and condem you. How can there be grace with you , checkout again the post that you made what you wrote there? you have written the most horrible thing that exists in this universe. You should be rude to yourself, not me to you. Please don't make such posts, if you have a little bit respect for us.

and kufr = disbelief.


Peace.

[Keltoi]

It is interesting to see the difference between the responses to my last post. On the one hand, Grace Seeker, a Christian, understands completely and adds edifying words to it, further explaining the Christian position. Of the Muslim responders, Woodrow and MustafaMc also show a degree of understanding and grace. Then there is vpb. He seems full of venom, ready to accuse and condemn, with words I have no understanding of (perhaps Muslim words, like "kufr"). Let me say to vpb, take a lesson from your Muslim brothers. Read their responses and compare theirs with yours. See any difference? Or do you just think you're "telling it like it is"?

Colossians 4:6 says, "Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one."

Ephesians 4:29 says, "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers."

I hope I am obeying those, too. If not, you are invited to remind me of them. I am never above correction.

Peace

As a Christian I understand exactly what you and Grace Seeker were trying to explain. Until a person actually finds that relationship with God through Jesus Christ it would be hard to understand. I didn't understand it for a long time. Realistically, words can't really explain what we feel as Christians, or what Muslims feel as Muslims.

On the issue of the responses to your post, some people just enjoy discussing the various elements of one's particular faith, and some people seem to enjoy trying to "prove" their religion is correct by trying "prove" another's religion is wrong. It is best to avoid those discussions, as the answer you give isn't what concerns them.

[vpb]

On the issue of the responses to your post, some people just enjoy discussing the various elements of one's particular faith, and some people seem to enjoy trying to "prove" their religion is correct by trying "prove" another's religion is wrong. It is best to avoid those discussions, as the answer you give isn't what concerns them.

I guess you are identifying me as "the one who tried to prove you wrong, and prove myself right" ??? why do you pretend to be the one who belongs to the first group? so you haven't made any posts in this forum, which tries to prove Christianity is true and Islam is false?
live reality dude, we all join here, to learn from each other, and at the same time try to prove eachother wrong, what's wrong with this? , don't tell me you don't do that, or you're not here for that, at least on of your reasons .
you just pretend to be one of the 21st modern people, who say "don't tell me I'm wrong" . what is wrong is wrong , what is right is right, and we try to tell each other that "look , this is right this is wrong" . what's wrong with this?
be realistic. there are millions of christian missionaries who go all over the world, who make people think christianity is true? I don't blame them, it's natural.

[Phil12123]

A Christian can not deny he is aware of the infinite mercy of Allah(swt). I can not understand how they can not believe that he is capable of forgiving each of us with just a thought.

Woodrow, Christians believe God is fully capable of forgiving each of us with just a thought. But God has revealed, first in the Old Testament, that to be just God must punish every sin. So He instituted the animal sacrifice system and, for example, a lamb without spot or blemish was sacrificed for the sins of the people. There were probably millions of animals sacrificed over the hundreds of years they did that. Why? Because:

Lev. 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."

Now the blood of those animals merely covered sins, as in the Passover, when God saw the blood, He would pass over the sinner and judgment would not fall on him. The sin was paid for by the animal's life, its blood. God's MERCY on the sinner was based on the shedding of blood of the animal in payment for the sinner's sins.

All of that was a type or picture of the Ultimate Sacrifice to come when Jesus, "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) would lay down His life, shedding the "precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:19). But Christ's blood doesn't just cover sins, it washes they away (Rev. 1:5; 1 John 1:7).

That is now the basis of a person's redemption and of God's mercy and grace toward the sinner. That is God's way. For a sinner to say to God, "No, I reject what Christ did for me," is to reject GOD'S way of salvation, which then removes any chance for mercy and forgiveness. God "spared not His own Son but delivered Him up for us all" (Rom. 8:32). In effect, God sent His Son to save the world by His shed blood, showing HIM no mercy as He (Jesus) bore our sins (taking our punishment), so that God could be JUST in terms of punishing all sin, and show US mercy by giving us forgiveness as a free gift. And because it is free to us, we have no excuse. If we reject it, we simply sentence OURSELVES to an eternity paying for our own sins.

Peace

[Phil12123]

ye i know, you want to tell me that my posts are rude, but you have also to think before you accusse Allah swt that He has a lack of mercy. if you condem my Lord and your Lord then of course I accusse and condem you. How can there be grace with you , checkout again the post that you made what you wrote there? you have written the most horrible thing that exists in this universe. You should be rude to yourself, not me to you. Please don't make such posts, if you have a little bit respect for us.

If you would read my last post above, you can see that I do not accuse God of lacking mercy. I'm merely saying (as I have said over and over again), that God's mercy is based on what a person does with (accept or reject) Jesus and what Jesus did at Calvary. You can't receive God's mercy without receiving Christ as the One who paid for your sins. Period.

How can there be grace with you , checkout again the post that you made what you wrote there? you have written the most horrible thing that exists in this universe. You should be rude to yourself, not me to you. Please don't make such posts, if you have a little bit respect for us.

Sorry, but I cannot imagine what you are talking about. "..the most horrible thing that exists in this universe"?? What words are you talking about?

Peace

[vpb]

Sorry, but I cannot imagine what you are talking about. "..the most horrible thing that exists in this universe"?? What words are you talking about?

Muslim believers are not permitted to consider Allah as their heavenly Father in any sense. He is more their Judge, someone to indeed fear because they have no assurance of his mercy or of their eternal destiny. They may pin their hopes on the Quranic verses that say over and over that Allah is merciful and forgiving, but they still don't know if that is how it will turn out in their own individual cases.

...

[vpb]

The Meaning of Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim - the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim are two names derived from Ar-Rahmah (the mercy), but Rahman has more meanings that pertain to mercy than Ar-Rahim. There is a statement by Ibn Jarir that indicates that there is a consensus on this meaning. Further, Al-Qurtubi said, "The proof that these names are derived (from Ar-Rahmah), is what At-Tirmidhi recorded - and graded Sahih from `Abdur-Rahman bin `Awf that he heard the Messenger of Allah say,
«قَالَ اللهُ تَعَالى: أَنَا الرَّحْمنُ خَلَقْتُ الرَّحِمَ وَشَقَقْتُ لَهَا اسْمًا مِنِ اسْمِي، فَمَنْ وَصَلَهَا وَصَلْتُهُ وَمَنْ قَطَعَها قَطَعْتُهُ»
(Allah the Exalted said, 'I Am Ar-Rahman. I created the Raham (womb, i.e. family relations) and derived a name for it from My Name. Hence, whoever keeps it, I will keep ties to him, and whoever severs it, I will sever ties with him.') He then said, "This is a text that indicates the derivation.'' He then said, "The Arabs denied the name Ar-Rahman, because of their ignorance about Allah and His attributes.''
Al-Qurtubi said, "It was said that both Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim have the same meaning, such as the words Nadman and Nadim, as Abu `Ubayd has stated. Abu `Ali Al-Farisi said, `Ar-Rahman, which is exclusively for Allah, is a name that encompasses every type of mercy that Allah has. Ar-Rahim is what effects the believers, for Allah said,
[وَكَانَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَحِيماً]
(And He is ever Rahim (merciful) to the believers.)' (33:43) Also, Ibn `Abbas said - about Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim, `They are two soft names, one of them is softer than the other (meaning it carries more implications of mercy).'''
Ibn Jarir said; As-Surri bin Yahya At-Tamimi narrated to me that `Uthman bin Zufar related that Al-`Azrami said about Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim, "He is Ar-Rahman with all creation and Ar-Rahim with the believers.'' Hence. Allah's statements,
[ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْشِ الرَّحْمَـنُ]
(Then He rose over (Istawa) the Throne (in a manner that suits His majesty), Ar-Rahman) (25:59),) and,
[الرَّحْمَـنُ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ اسْتَوَى ]
(Ar-Rahman (Allah) rose over (Istawa) the (Mighty) Throne (in a manner that suits His majesty).) (20:5)
Allah thus mentioned the Istawa - rising over the Throne - along with His Name Ar-Rahman, to indicate that His mercy encompasses all of His creation. Allah also said,
[وَكَانَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَحِيماً]
(And He is ever Rahim (merciful) to the believers), thus encompassing the believers with His Name Ar-Rahim. They said, "This testifies to the fact that Ar-Rahman carries a broader scope of meanings pertaining to the mercy of Allah with His creation in both lives. Meanwhile, Ar-Rahim is exclusively for the believers.'' Yet, we should mention that there is a supplication that reads,
«رَحْمنَ الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَرَحِيمَهُمَا»
(The Rahman and the Rahim of this life and the Hereafter)
Allah's Name Ar-Rahman is exclusively His. For instance, Allah said,
[قُلِ ادْعُواْ اللَّهَ أَوِ ادْعُواْ الرَّحْمَـنَ أَيًّا مَّا تَدْعُواْ فَلَهُ الاٌّسْمَآءَ الْحُسْنَى]
(Say (O Muhammad ): "Invoke Allah or invoke Ar-Rahman (Allah), by whatever name you invoke Him (it is the same), for to Him belong the Best Names) (17:110),) and,
[وَاسْئلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ مِن رُّسُلِنَآ أَجَعَلْنَا مِن دُونِ الرَّحْمَـنِ ءَالِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ ]
(And ask (O Muhammad ) those of Our Messengers whom We sent before you: "Did We ever appoint alihah (gods) to be worshipped besides Ar-Rahman (Most Gracious, Allah)'') (43:45).
Further, when Musaylimah the Liar called himself the Rahman of Yamamah, Allah made him known by the name `Liar' and exposed him. Hence, whenever Musaylimah is mentioned, he is described as `the Liar'. He became an example for lying among the residents of the cities and villages and the residents of the deserts, the bedouins.
Therefore, Allah first mentioned His Name - Allah - that is exclusively His and described this Name by Ar-Rahman, which no one else is allowed to use, just as Allah said,
[قُلِ ادْعُواْ اللَّهَ أَوِ ادْعُواْ الرَّحْمَـنَ أَيًّا مَّا تَدْعُواْ فَلَهُ الاٌّسْمَآءَ الْحُسْنَى]
(Say (O Muhammad ): "Invoke Allah or invoke Ar-Rahman (Allah), by whatever name you invoke Him (it is the same), for to Him belong the Best Names.'') (17:110)
Only Musaylimah and those who followed his misguided ways described Musaylimah by Ar-Rahman.
As for Allah's Name Ar-Rahim, Allah has described others by it. For instance, Allah said,
[لَقَدْ جَآءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ عَزِيزٌ عَلَيْهِ مَا عَنِتُّمْ حَرِيصٌ عَلَيْكُمْ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَءُوفٌ رَّحِيمٌ ]
(Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger (Muhammad ) from amongst yourselves (i.e. whom you know well). It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. He (Muhammad ) is anxious over you (to be rightly guided) for the believers (he is) kind (full of pity), and Rahim (merciful)) (9:128).
Allah has also described some of His creation using some of His other Names. For instance, Allah said,
[إِنَّا خَلَقْنَا الإِنسَـنَ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ أَمْشَاجٍ نَّبْتَلِيهِ فَجَعَلْنَـهُ سَمِيعاً بَصِيراً ]
(Verily, We have created man from Nutfah (drops) of mixed semen (sexual discharge of man and woman), in order to try him, so We made him hearer (Sami`) and seer (Basir) (76:2).
In conclusion, there are several of Allah's Names that are used as names for others besides Allah. Further, some of Allah's Names are exclusive for Allah alone, such as Allah, Ar-Rahman, Al-Khaliq (the Creator), Ar-Raziq (the Sustainer), and so forth.
Hence, Allah started the Tasmiyah (meaning, `In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious Most Merciful') with His Name, Allah, and described Himself as Ar-Rahman, (Most Gracious) which is softer and more general than Ar-Rahim. The most honorable Names are mentioned first, just as Allah did here.
A Hadith narrated by Umm Salamah stated that the recitation of the Messenger of Allah was slow and clear, letter by letter,
[بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَـنِ الرَّحِيمِ - الْحَمْدُ للَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَـلَمِينَ - الرَّحْمَـنِ الرَّحِيمِ - مَـلِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ ]
(In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of all that exists. The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. The Owner of the Day of Recompense) (1:1-4).
And this is how a group of scholars recite it. Others connected the recitation of the Tasmiyah to Al-Hamd.
[الْحَمْدُ للَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَـلَمِينَ ]
(2. Al-Hamd be to Allah, the Lord of all that exists.)

[Keltoi]

I guess you are identifying me as "the one who tried to prove you wrong, and prove myself right" ??? why do you pretend to be the one who belongs to the first group? so you haven't made any posts in this forum, which tries to prove Christianity is true and Islam is false?
live reality dude, we all join here, to learn from each other, and at the same time try to prove eachother wrong, what's wrong with this? , don't tell me you don't do that, or you're not here for that, at least on of your reasons .
you just pretend to be one of the 21st modern people, who say "don't tell me I'm wrong" . what is wrong is wrong , what is right is right, and we try to tell each other that "look , this is right this is wrong" . what's wrong with this?
be realistic. there are millions of christian missionaries who go all over the world, who make people think christianity is true? I don't blame them, it's natural.

I've never submitted a post in the context of "proving" Islam to be wrong. Of course I believe that, but I don't have any interest in trying to "prove" it to you. Of course this is a Muslim forum, so I know that most of these threads will be directed towards casting doubt on the Christian faith, it isn't exactly shocking. However, I've never intentionally said anything to be insulting or call into doubt a Muslim's faith, or any other for that matter. I have more respect than that, plus I'm secure enough with my own faith that the thought of arguing with somebody about their beliefs seems a little pointless to me. I'm interesting in learning about Islam, not proving them wrong.

[Phil12123]

Sorry, but I cannot imagine what you are talking about. "..the most horrible thing that exists in this universe"?? What words are you talking about?

Muslim believers are not permitted to consider Allah as their heavenly Father in any sense. He is more their Judge, someone to indeed fear because they have no assurance of his mercy or of their eternal destiny. They may pin their hopes on the Quranic verses that say over and over that Allah is merciful and forgiving, but they still don't know if that is how it will turn out in their own individual cases.

...

What? THAT is "the most horrible thing that exists in this universe"??? But it is the TRUTH, isn't it?? YOU don't know if that (obtaining Allah's mercy and forgiveness) is how it will turn out in YOUR case, do you? You have to wait till after your "trial" to see if you get mercy and forgiveness (and therefore heaven) or not (and therefore hell). Right?

Peace

[vpb]

I've never submitted a post in the context of "proving" Islam to be wrong. Of course I believe that, but I don't have any interest in trying to "prove" it to you. Of course this is a Muslim forum, so I know that most of these threads will be directed towards casting doubt on the Christian faith, it isn't exactly shocking. However, I've never intentionally said anything to be insulting or call into doubt a Muslim's faith, or any other for that matter. I have more respect than that, plus I'm secure enough with my own faith that the thought of arguing with somebody about their beliefs seems a little pointless to me. I'm interesting in learning about Islam, not proving them wrong.

I understand what you are saying, but people need to be a more realistic, I mean I have no problem if you try to prove Islam wrong, unless you start using improper sources. so it's a fear game. I try to prove mine, you try yours. now bc you dont', that's a different thing.

:)

peace.

[vpb]

What? THAT is "the most horrible thing that exists in this universe"??? But it is the TRUTH, isn't it?? YOU don't know if that (obtaining Allah's mercy and forgiveness) is how it will turn out in YOUR case, do you? You have to wait till after your "trial" to see if you get mercy and forgiveness (and therefore heaven) or not (and therefore hell). Right?

you see the thing in Islam, is that Allah swt does not point at us you go to heaven, you go to hell, but the thing with the Qur'an and Sunnah is that it shows you the signs, the traps, the chararistics of one who will go to Hell, and one who will go to Heaven.
for example we don't and usually avoid calling a muslim a munafiq (hypocrit), who posseses hypocrit's characteristics, but we know that if you do certain things, you become a munafiq, but we don't point with fingers. so we know what makes you a hypocrit, but we don't put a stamp on the paper, to confirm for someone that he is a hypocrit. same is with wether we go to hell or heaven. We know what makes you win heaven, and what makes you go to Hell, but we don't confirm things, bc we are not the ones who do that. cuz Allah is the one who decides, who knows . We don't have enough knowledge to know people's hearts. So Allah on the Day of Judgment will judge people according to what they did, (even things smaller than the atom, as it says in the Qur'an) , according to what their hearts held, and if they deserve mercy, Allah will give them mercy, if not , He will not give them mercy. And Allah swt knows who he gives mercy.

the thing is that a person may be a very good muslim, do all good deeds, avoid haram stuff but we don't say "He will go to heaven", bc then I am like confirming God's decision. and I shouldn't. That's why we don't know. bc we can't confirm it, we are not the one who confirm things. But Allah swt tells us in Qur'an in many places, that who will deserve to go to heaven and who to hell.

please read all the verses, so you can understand what i'm trying to say.

2:38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

2:156. Who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return":-
2:157. They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.


2:159. Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah.s curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,-
2:160. Except those who repent and make amends and openly declare (the Truth): To them I turn; for I am Oft-returning, Most Merciful.


2:218. Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah,- they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


3:31. Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."


4:172. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).
4:173. But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards,- and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them.
4:174. O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest.
4:175. Then those who believe in Allah, and hold fast to Him,- soon will He admit them to mercy and grace from Himself, and guide them to Himself by a straight way


ok , now I just posted some of them, cuz there are plenty, but you do you what I am trying to say, Allah swt tells us the signs, that make you recieve his mercy, or the traps, the ditches, which make you go to Hell. But that's why we don't confirm, bc we can say "Ok, he is a good muslim, he prays 5 times a day, he pays zakat, he fasts, performs pilgrimage, does this and that...so he deserves Jannah", now the problem with this is that, we don't have authority to say about someone that he will enter paradise.

an example:

when you apply for job, they say, you need to:

Have skills on such things
Have knowledge on such things
Be good in communication,
Be nice with people ....etc etc. as you usually see on job market.

now, you know what are the things which you need to have, to get the job, but can you garantee and say I will get that job?? no you can't, so your dutie is to fulfill those requirements, and then if you do , if they want, they will accept you to take the job.

I tried my best to explain. may Allah forgive me if I made a mistake somewhere.

:)

[Redeemed]

why do u need to be on judgmeent when Jesus has already saved you?

The judgment day is for our rewards' not our sin! Those who don't have Christ are judged by there works. All who a judged by there works for their eternal destiny are in deep fiery mire, bc all have sinned and come short of God's glory. By the way, it doesn't make sense that you have to confess Muhammad along with God to be a Muslim or to have a chance at salvation, just because there are other apostles and prophets. Abraham did not make anyone confess him and God nor did Moses to this because there were other prophets nor did Elijah have his name mentioned or Daniel and so on. In other words, there was not a need for us Christians to confess an apostle or prophet because there were others. We believe that there were many true prophets. Why should one prophet be elevated above another just bc he was the last messenger that spoke until Jesus comes back unless, that prophet is what holds ones worldview together independently of all Biblical Scripture and not the Lord God. You do associate a prophet with Allah in order to be a believer. This we don't do. We believe in The King of kings and Lord of Lords who does not associate Himself with any prophet when it comes to a confession of faith. What do you mean everyone can see it except for me? Who besides Muslims can see it your way? I could say the same that all but you can believe that God is one substance, but three persons, yet there is only one God. This is a great Mystery to us, but the Shahada is not a mystery; it is elevating and trusting one prophet with your eternal destiny, because you must confess him to be saved. No matter how you twist and turn it, you all exalt this prophet above all others simply bc you believe that he brought the last message, and yet there was no prophecy or authoritative word leading up to his ministry like there was centuries before Jesus’ ministry started. We are talking prophecy that tells what His purpose was to be and all that would befall him and it was fulfilled including signs in the heavens and earth. With all due respect I am not trying to be rude just firm in love by calling it the way I see it.

[vpb]

The judgment day is for our rewards' not our sin! Those who don't have Christ are judged by there works. All who a judged by there works for their eternal destiny are in deep fiery mire, bc all have sinned and come short of God's glory. By the way, it doesn't make sense that you have to confess Muhammad along with God to be a Muslim or to have a chance at salvation, just because there are other apostles and prophets. Abraham did not make anyone confess him and God nor did Moses to this because there were other prophets nor did Elijah have his name mentioned or Daniel and so on. In other words, there was not a need for us Christians to confess an apostle or prophet because there were others. We believe that there were many true prophets. Why should one prophet be elevated above another just bc he was the last messenger that spoke until Jesus comes back unless, that prophet is what holds ones worldview together independently of all Biblical Scripture and not the Lord God. You do associate a prophet with Allah in order to be a believer. This we don't do. We believe in The King of kings and Lord of Lords who does not associate Himself with any prophet when it comes to a confession of faith. What do you mean everyone can see it except for me? Who besides Muslims can see it your way? I could say the same that all but you can believe that God is one substance, but three persons, yet there is only one God. This is a great Mystery to us, but the Shahada is not a mystery; it is elevating and trusting one prophet with your eternal destiny, because you must confess him to be saved. No matter how you twist and turn it, you all exalt this prophet above all others simply bc you believe that he brought the last message, and yet there was no prophecy or authoritative word leading up to his ministry like there was centuries before Jesus’ ministry started. We are talking prophecy that tells what His purpose was to be and all that would befall him and it was fulfilled including signs in the heavens and earth. With all due respect I am not trying to be rude just firm in love by calling it the way I see it.

ok to make it very simple, you have to declare on testimony that Muhammed is Allah's messenger, because he is the only one you should follow, the only model, no one else. so if you say just La ilahe ilallah (There is no diety of worship but Allah), then there is a possibility that you believe in Allah, but you follow someone else rather than Muhammed a.s, which goes against islam, because Allah says:

"And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad, saaws, gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it." (v. 59:7)

"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): ‘If you (really) love Allah, then follow me.’" (v. 3:31)

Here are just some of the verse which orders us to follow and obey Muhammed.
. So to prove that you Believe Allah is One, and that you are following Muhammed, you have to testify, also that Muhammed is Allah's Messenger.

I tried to be a simple as possible.
and if you still don't understand it, than i'm not gonna try anymore, because I haven't come across any non-muslim who raised this issue, so the problem must be at you, you are either not understanding it, or trying to reject it on purpose so you justify your ascribing partnership of God.



and
don't go to prophecies cuz we know straight away, who fails on prophecies.


peace :)

[Redeemed]

ok to make it very simple, you have to declare on testimony that Muhammed is Allah's messenger, because he is the only one you should follow, the only model, no one else. so if you say just La ilahe ilallah (There is no diety of worship but Allah), then there is a possibility that you believe in Allah, but you follow someone else rather than Muhammed a.s, which goes against islam, because Allah says:

"And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad, saaws, gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it." (v. 59:7)

"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): ‘If you (really) love Allah, then follow me.’" (v. 3:31)

Here are just some of the verse which orders us to follow and obey Muhammed.
. So to prove that you Believe Allah is One, and that you are following Muhammed, you have to testify, also that Muhammed is Allah's Messenger.

I tried to be a simple as possible.
and if you still don't understand it, than i'm not gonna try anymore, because I haven't come across any non-muslim who raised this issue, so the problem must be at you, you are either not understanding it, or trying to reject it on purpose so you justify your ascribing partnership of God.



and
don't go to prophecies cuz we know straight away, who fails on prophecies.


peace :)

OK, I understand what you are saying, but it is me you don't understand and I have no idea what you mean by don't go to prophecy cuz I know who will fail. Jesus never fails and it is written: "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true." What ever Muhammad says you must do. That certainly sounds like god like powers to me. If he said he was god you would believe it, but you don't realize you would. I consider that ascribing on to God not cuz I don't want to see what you call truth. But, I would be glad to get into it with you on prohecies cuz this ain't getting us anywhere. Other Christians see it this way too, except I am the only nut to come out with it like this.

[Woodrow]

OK, I understand what you are saying, but it is me you don't understand and I have no idea what you mean by don't go to prophecy cuz I know who will fail. Jesus never fails and it is written: "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true." What ever Muhammad says you must do. That certainly sounds like god like powers to me. If he said he was god you would believe it, but you don't realize you would. I consider that ascribing on to God not cuz I don't want to see what you call truth. But, I would be glad to get into it with you on prohecies cuz this ain't getting us anywhere. Other Christians see it this way too, except I am the only nut to come out with it like this.

I am trying to find what I can agree with you here. The most obvious is:"cuz this ain't getting us anywhere". I realize this is very frustrating to you. I can see and understand that many of our beliefs do go against your beliefs. In all fairness i assure you, your beliefs sound just as incomprehensible and unreasonable to us.

It all comes down to which is the truth. The Bible or the Qur'an. If you believe the Bible is true, it is impossible for you to believe the Qur'an. We believe the Qur'an is the truth and it is impossible for us to believe the Bible.

At the moment it seems that your arguments are beginning to be based on emotionalism.

To us that are watching, you seem to be trying to convince us. But, we are getting the impression that you are seeking to convince yourself that your beliefs are valid and that to prove your beliefs you now have a strong need to convince at least one Muslim that the Bible is true.

You see us as a challenge and you have a need to prove to yourself that the words of the Bible are sufficient to cause at least one of us to abandon Islam.

I doubt very much that you fully understand that we know in our hearts, through our faith and from the words of Allah(swt) that what you are mistakingly trying to lead us into is the road to eternal Hellfire. I know that you believe you are on the path to Paradise, but we know that is the path to eternal death and loss of heaven. We are all praying that Allah(swt) will be merciful and you will find the truth before it is too late.

[Redeemed]

I am trying to find what I can agree with you here. The most obvious is:"cuz this ain't getting us anywhere". I realize this is very frustrating to you. I can see and understand that many of our beliefs do go against your beliefs. In all fairness i assure you, your beliefs sound just as incomprehensible and unreasonable to us.

It all comes down to which is the truth. The Bible or the Qur'an. If you believe the Bible is true, it is impossible for you to believe the Qur'an. We believe the Qur'an is the truth and it is impossible for us to believe the Bible.

At the moment it seems that your arguments are beginning to be based on emotionalism.

To us that are watching, you seem to be trying to convince us. But, we are getting the impression that you are seeking to convince yourself that your beliefs are valid and that to prove your beliefs you now have a strong need to convince at least one Muslim that the Bible is true.

You see us as a challenge and you have a need to prove to yourself that the words of the Bible are sufficient to cause at least one of us to abandon Islam.

I doubt very much that you fully understand that we know in our hearts, through our faith and from the words of Allah(swt) that what you are mistakingly trying to lead us into is the road to eternal Hellfire. I know that you believe you are on the path to Paradise, but we know that is the path to eternal death and loss of heaven. We are all praying that Allah(swt) will be merciful and you will find the truth before it is too late.

What is it I am saying that is causing you to think that I am looking for justification for what i believe. You are makiing me sound like I am waving in what I believe as a Christian. :enough!: Nothing is further from the truth. I am thinking that you are saying that to encourage yourself. Let me ask you a question. Who was the trinity to you when you were a Christian, and who is the trinity now that you are a Muslim and who was the trinity to you when you were a Buddist? Who was the trinity to Muhammad specifically if you even can answer that question? Give me a verse from the Qur'an if you can.

[MustafaMc]

That is now the basis of a person's redemption and of God's mercy and grace toward the sinner. That is God's way. For a sinner to say to God, "No, I reject what Christ did for me," is to reject GOD'S way of salvation, which then removes any chance for mercy and forgiveness. God "spared not His own Son but delivered Him up for us all" (Rom. 8:32). In effect, God sent His Son to save the world by His shed blood, showing HIM no mercy as He (Jesus) bore our sins (taking our punishment), so that God could be JUST in terms of punishing all sin, and show US mercy by giving us forgiveness as a free gift. And because it is free to us, we have no excuse. If we reject it, we simply sentence OURSELVES to an eternity paying for our own sins.

Peace

You may find it hard to believe, but I believed that what you described was the truth until I was a senior in college. Others will question if I was sincere and had a "personal relationship" with Jesus. Well, I can't even answer that myself after 25 years, but it is difficult for me to imagine now that I once believed that way.

My concept of Allah is now such that it is unimaginable for Him to have a Son or to have became a human in order to suffer as Jesus is believed (by Christians) to have suffered on the cross in order to redeem man from his sins. It is unimaginable to me for God to be born of a woman and to die. To me the Glory of Allah is too much for humans to bear to look upon even if only one-millioneth (sp?) of Him was present in Jesus. Yet Christians believe that Jesus was 100% God and 100% human.

I do remember that as a Christian the emphasis in my worship was on Jesus and specifically him on the cross dying for my sins. As a Muslim I now disassociate from ever putting anyone or anything as equal with Allah. I see Jesus as a human, born of the Virgin Mary, a servant of Allah and His Messenger to the lost sheep of Israel. So, if it is as you say, "If we reject it, we simply sentence OURSELVES to an eternity paying for our own sins" then that is a choice that I have already made. Yes, it was a difficult thing for me to give up that security blanket of Jesus' blood, but an analogy for me now is realizing that Santa Claus doesn't really exist. Yes, it is an unimaginably scary/fearful thought to stand before Allah with nothing but my belief in One God and my puny attempts at worship such as prayer, fasting, and charity and my so-called good deeds. I am indeed at His Mercy.

[Phil12123]

you see the thing in Islam, is that Allah swt does not point at us you go to heaven, you go to hell, but the thing with the Qur'an and Sunnah is that it shows you the signs, the traps, the chararistics of one who will go to Hell, and one who will go to Heaven.
for example we don't and usually avoid calling a muslim a munafiq (hypocrit), who posseses hypocrit's characteristics, but we know that if you do certain things, you become a munafiq, but we don't point with fingers. so we know what makes you a hypocrit, but we don't put a stamp on the paper, to confirm for someone that he is a hypocrit. same is with wether we go to hell or heaven. We know what makes you win heaven, and what makes you go to Hell, but we don't confirm things, bc we are not the ones who do that. cuz Allah is the one who decides, who knows . We don't have enough knowledge to know people's hearts. So Allah on the Day of Judgment will judge people according to what they did, (even things smaller than the atom, as it says in the Qur'an) , according to what their hearts held, and if they deserve mercy, Allah will give them mercy, if not , He will not give them mercy. And Allah swt knows who he gives mercy.

the thing is that a person may be a very good muslim, do all good deeds, avoid haram stuff but we don't say "He will go to heaven", bc then I am like confirming God's decision. and I shouldn't. That's why we don't know. bc we can't confirm it, we are not the one who confirm things. But Allah swt tells us in Qur'an in many places, that who will deserve to go to heaven and who to hell.

please read all the verses, so you can understand what i'm trying to say.

[verses read, but omitted here to keep the size of this shorter]
ok , now I just posted some of them, cuz there are plenty, but you do you what I am trying to say, Allah swt tells us the signs, that make you recieve his mercy, or the traps, the ditches, which make you go to Hell. But that's why we don't confirm, bc we can say "Ok, he is a good muslim, he prays 5 times a day, he pays zakat, he fasts, performs pilgrimage, does this and that...so he deserves Jannah", now the problem with this is that, we don't have authority to say about someone that he will enter paradise.

an example:

when you apply for job, they say, you need to:

Have skills on such things
Have knowledge on such things
Be good in communication,
Be nice with people ....etc etc. as you usually see on job market.

now, you know what are the things which you need to have, to get the job, but can you garantee and say I will get that job?? no you can't, so your dutie is to fulfill those requirements, and then if you do , if they want, they will accept you to take the job.

I tried my best to explain. may Allah forgive me if I made a mistake somewhere.

:)

Thank you for your explanation. Based on what you say, though, it sounds, again, like no Muslim can have any real assurance that he will go to heaven before Allah pronounces that verdict after the judgment. There are indeed verses that seem to give some assurance of mercy and forgiveness, but, again, it seems to boil down to a person's life---how he lived it, or more correctly, how Allah sees the life and judges it ("Allah on the Day of Judgment will judge people according to what they did, [even things smaller than the atom, as it says in the Qur'an], according to what their hearts held" etc.). The problem, of course, is sin and how we get it forgiven and whether we can KNOW it's forgiven, now before we get to the judgment.

We all sin and have need of forgiveness, as we said, daily if not hourly. For the Christian who is saved (received God's gift of eternal life and assured of going to heaven), he still needs forgiveness for those sins committed before he dies, not because his sins will send him to hell (since they are already paid for at the cross), but because his fellowship with God is broken by such sin. The promise a Christian has for such forgiveness is found in 1 John 1:9, which says, in context:

1 John 1:
6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I'm wondering if the Quran has something comparable, whereby there is a definite promise like that... if you do a..b..c.. then you have forgiveness (not hope to have, but really have, forgiveness NOW).

Peace

[Redeemed]

Thank you for your explanation. Based on what you say, though, it sounds, again, like no Muslim can have any real assurance that he will go to heaven before Allah pronounces that verdict after the judgment. There are indeed verses that seem to give some assurance of mercy and forgiveness, but, again, it seems to boil down to a person's life---how he lived it, or more correctly, how Allah sees the life and judges it ("Allah on the Day of Judgment will judge people according to what they did, [even things smaller than the atom, as it says in the Qur'an], according to what their hearts held" etc.). The problem, of course, is sin and how we get it forgiven and whether we can KNOW it's forgiven, now before we get to the judgment.

We all sin and have need of forgiveness, as we said, daily if not hourly. For the Christian who is saved (received God's gift of eternal life and assured of going to heaven), he still needs forgiveness for those sins committed before he dies, not because his sins will send him to hell (since they are already paid for at the cross), but because his fellowship with God is broken by such sin. The promise a Christian has for such forgiveness is found in 1 John 1:9, which says, in context:

1 John 1:
6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I'm wondering if the Quran has something comparable, whereby there is a definite promise like that... if you do a..b..c.. then you have forgiveness (not hope to have, but really have, forgiveness NOW).

Peace

The God we serve lets us know now where we will be spending all eternity. I wouldn't serve a God that won't let me know where I am going for eternity bc that god would be unjust to me. It is written, "I write these things unto you that you may know that you have eternal life and that life is in His Son." If you have the son you have life if you don't you don't have it sorry. God said, "This is my Son in whom I am well please, hear ye Him."

[Redeemed]

Remember it is not us Christians who ascribe unto God. It is God himself that does it.

[Grace Seeker]

Peace Gene,
To me it is no longer a question of why a Christian would revert to Islam it is a question of "How can a person truly love and follow Jesus(as) and not revert to Islam?"

I actually do understand that this is exactly where you are in your life now. And unlike vpb might think, I have no intention of trying to prove anything here either. At least not in the sense of trying to convince you that you made a mistake in reverting from Christianity to Islam. I don't feel a need to prove my faith, I am satisfied with proclaiming it as my faith and if you or someone else is interested I will share more. If you are not, well, within the context of this forum I have agreed not to proselytze and I intend to honor the agreement.

It is very difficult for a Christian to understand how and why a Christian would revert to Islam. What would it take for a Christian to give up the joy of a Personal Relationship with Jesus(as) and the guaranteed assurance of salvation? Why would a Christian willingly throw all of this away and jump into something with no assurance about anything, have to learn a new language and give up what they believe to be all chances of redemption?

It would take some very strong feelings and a very deep reassurance that nothing is lost and all is gained to make that leap. I doubt if many "weak" Christians would take that leap. A Christian that is weak in his faith as a Christian would probably be weak in faith even after reverting to Islam. A revert does not see his reversion as giving up Christianity a revert sees it as doing what Jesus(as) really told us to do and that is to worship the One True God(as) and to serve only Him. Although I only spent about 25 years as a member of a Christian denomination, I did believe Christianity held the truth and my life was a search to find the message Jesus(as) wanted people to learn. At no time did I ever loose love of Jesus(as) or the feeling of his word. Although I did learn to doubt the truth of the Churches that professed Christianity.

Woodrow, you said something in this last paragraph that is exactly what I was talking about in my last post. You said:

my life was a search to find the message Jesus(as) wanted people to learn.

That is what I suspected. You were looking for a message, when Christianity is not about a message but a relationship.

This is one reason I think that Christains and Muslims simply completely miss each other's points on this forum. From the Christian perspective, you can have the Injil that Muslims believe that Jesus preached, you could have it recorded on CD with Jesus himself signing to authenticate its message, and you still would not have Christianity simply because you had Jesus' message.

But if you had the message all wrong, but did have a living personal relationship with God in and through Jesus Christ in whom you placed your faith, then you would have Christianity.

Is it blind faith? I don't think so, while we might say that the faith we place in the accuracy of the message comes close to blind faith, the faith we put in Jesus is based on our knowing him personally. That is not blind, that is definitely based on personal knowledge and acquaintance; it is relational faith.


As far as my views being Kufr, I find it interesting that no Muslim who knows me personally (from actually meeting me face-to-face) has ever said that. Surely I seem that way on here as we argue over detailed points of theology. But Muslims who have lived in my home (and I would guess know me best) have said that indeed they cannot call me as such. Perhaps they are simply hoping the best for me because of our personal relationship. Or perhaps they know something about me that those who find my views to be shirk have not yet looked deep enough to see.

I suppose only Allah knows.

[Woodrow]

What is it I am saying that is causing you to think that I am looking for justification for what i believe.

At the moment you are convinced that you believe that you are offering a great gift to those that do not have it. If we deny accepting what you see as a gift you will probably see yourself as weak and incapable of spreading what you believe to be the truth. It is by convincing others that you will be reinforced of the power of what you believe.

You are makiing me sound like I am waving in what I believe as a Christian. :enough!: Nothing is further from the truth.

Look at your posts. Do they not seem to be the words of a person who is waving his beliefs as a banner to those who believe different. In the past few days your posts have become much more emotional and seem to indicate frustration and possibly even some anger at your words not being headed.

I am thinking that you are saying that to encourage yourself.

Of course I am. This is an Islamic forum and my open goal is to promote Islam. I have 2 desires here one is to help remove the misconceptions people have about Islam and the other is to pray that readers will learn enough about Islam to make an educated choice as accepting or rejecting it.

Let me ask you a question. Who was the trinity to you when you were a Christian, and who is the trinity now that you are a Muslim and who was the trinity to you when you were a Buddist?

Who was the trinity to you when you were a Christian,

When I was a Christian I saw the trinity as a single God(swt) revealed in three persons, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

and who is the trinity now that you are a Muslim

Now I see the concept of the trinity as an erroneous attempt to attribute Human Characteristics to God(swt). I believe people have made the error of attributing Godlike characteristics to a wonderful Prophet(PBUH) and have by doing so attempted to create God(swt) in their own image. I do believe most if not all Christians do believe they are worshiping a single God(swt) but they fail to see that they have established a false image that they believe is God(swt)

who was the trinity to you when you were a Buddist?

That is a moot point, because as a Buddhist I saw God(swt) as being the fabric of the universe and not as an entity. Also I was not a very good Buddhist, I was more of an agnostic in search of the truth. I had tried various Christian beliefs and found them all to be preaching a false message and demeaning the true nature of Isa(as). Throughout my 40 years as a self proclaimed Buddhist I did attend and belonged to several different Christian denominations at various times. The one I felt the closest to and the most Christlike is the UMC and I do still have a warm feeling to them as I found them to be truly sincere in their beliefs and fully understanding of my not being receptive to their beliefs.

Christianity ceased to be Christian when people began worshiping Isa(as)

Who was the trinity to Muhammad specifically if you even can answer that question? Give me a verse from the Qur'an if you can.

The concept of the Trinity is not a teaching from God(swt) Why would it be in the Qur'an or even of any meaning to Muhammad(PBUH)?

5:111. "And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'". S P C
5:112. Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have faith." S P C

5:113. They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle." S P
5:114. Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)." S P C

5:115. Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples." S P C
5:116. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden." S P C

5:117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

[vpb]

OK, I understand what you are saying, but it is me you don't understand and I have no idea what you mean by don't go to prophecy cuz I know who will fail. Jesus never fails and it is written: "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true."

Astagfirullah. I never said what Jesus said was false, bc He was a pious person, He was the Apostle of Allah and an excellect example for the Bani Israel, for the nation he went for. And Jesus could not lie or speak not the truth. But what fails, is not Jesus, but what fails is Paul, John, Mark, Mathew,.......

What ever Muhammad says you must do.

Of course, cuz he is our only model we should follow.

59:7. "And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad, saaws, gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it."

3:31:. "Say (O Muhammad to mankind): ‘If you (really) love Allah, then follow me.’"

2:120. Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

Surah An-Najm:
1. By the Star when it goes down,-
2. Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
3. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.


ok, i just posted two verse , just for a quick demonstration :p,
to show that The Prophet Muhammed does not speak of his own desire, so every command he gives, is basically what Allah swt ordered , directly or indirectly.

That certainly sounds like god like powers to me.

if I am the project manager, and the president of company is telling me to go and give some orders to the workers, does it mean that I am the president?? NO. bc I don't make the orders, I don't issue that permission to give such orders, etc.

If he said he was god you would believe it, but you don't realize you would.

even hypothetically is impossible. bc otherwise Muhammed saws would contradict himself. the Qur'an was sent, in order to correct the beliefs of the people , ie. those who started worshiping idols, the christians who started worshipping Jesus....", so the Qur'an was sent to correct people's belief to worship one God, without partners and rivals. how is it possible that Muhammed could claim that?? it's impossible, logicaly impossible. I don't know how you come to these conlusions.

But, I would be glad to get into it with you on prohecies cuz this ain't getting us anywhere. Other Christians see it this way too, except I am the only nut to come out with it like this.

No , where are not getting into prophecies, bc it is already known that bible contains a full list of unfulfilled prophecies. and prophecy is not the MAIN tool to identify if the book is God's word or not. cuz then Nostradamus's book should be the word of God. Prophecies can just can be as a support that is included in the box of evidences for proving that a book is word of God, but it's not the main thing.

Who was the trinity to Muhammad specifically if you even can answer that question? Give me a verse from the Qur'an if you can.

do you really think Qur'an should now start explain on detail about every single religion??, Qur'an was not sent to talk about other religions, it was sent to warn people against joining partnership to Allah swt. That was the main objective of sending Muhammed saws as a Messenger and the book , The Qur'an.

8. Qur'an from its beggining to its end calls on tawheed

Ibn Qajim Al Xhauzije says : "Every ayat (verse) of the Qur'an contains tawheed on itself , or it give arguments for the tawheed, or calls to it. Qur'an either tells us about Allah, His names and attributes, which is tawheed Asmaa ua Sifaat, or it calls on unification (Oneness of Allah) of Allah on actions while not joining partnership, which is tawheed Uluhija and Rububija, or it contains orders or forbidding things, which are from the truth and fulfilling of tawheed."

for full article: http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-beliefs/43570-importance-tawheed.html

I'm wondering if the Quran has something comparable, whereby there is a definite promise like that... if you do a..b..c.. then you have forgiveness (not hope to have, but really have, forgiveness NOW).

I don't know what you really mean with 'definite', bc I showed on the verses on the previous post, but let's take an example:

4. Tawheed is the main reason for the man to enter Jannah (Paradise)


It is transmitted from Ubaidah Ibn Samit (r.a) that the Messenger of Allah saws said: "Who testifies that there is no diety of worship except Allah, Who is without rival or partner, and that Muhammed is His Messenger, and that paradise and hellfire are true, Allah swt will put him in Jannah (Paradise)." [Bukhari]

Transmitted from Utban that the Messenger of Allah saws said: "Allah swt forbided the hellfire to have a person who said the word "La ilahe ilall-llah" with sincerity."
[Bukhari]

In this context, it is worthy to mention the word of Ibn Taymyah to comment and understand the above hadiths:

"These hadiths is for those people that said this word and died with this word, work with this word, say it with sincerty, convinced without having any doubts or dilemma and with loyalty"

Hasan al Basri has been asked that there are some people that say that whoever pronounces the word "La ilahe il-lall-llah" will enter Jannah? He answered: "He who pronounces the word "La ilahe il-lall-llah" , practices the conditions and become subject of the orders of this word will enter Jannah."

When Vahb Ibn Munabih answered the question: "Is the word "La ilahe il-lall-llah" the key of the Jannah"? He said every key has its pins,so if it comes with the key and its pins, the door will be opened, otherwise if it comes with key without its pins, it will not be opened".

for full article: http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-beliefs/43570-importance-tawheed.html


so we are seeing an example, we know that if you do that you enter Paradise, but we can't confirm and point with fingers to individuals, as I said on the previous post.

The God we serve lets us know now where we will be spending all eternity. I wouldn't serve a God that won't let me know where I am going for eternity bc that god would be an unjust to me. It is written, "I write these things unto you that you may know that you have eternal life and that life is in His Son." If you have the son you have life if you don't you don't have it sorry. God said, "This is my Son in whom I am well please, hear ye Him."

Well, it seems injustice to you, but when you do the exam paper, you have to wait till you see the results, you can a little bit guess how good you did, but u can't confirm the grade that you will take.
but the difference between Muslims and non-muslims is, that muslims don't care about this world, cuz this world is just a bus station, we are on the road, so we are just here to get as much points as possible, and inshaallah te ala go to Jannah the other life.

[vpb]

Remember it is not us Christians who ascribe unto God. It is God himself that does it.

from a muslim point of view, your statement is false. Bc Allah swt never told Jesus a.s to tell people to worship him (Jesus a.s), and Jesus a.s never said "Worship me", and Jesus never lied and went against the message of Allah.
but it is people like Paul and others who came up with this idea.
Allah knows best.

Is it blind faith? I don't think so, while we might say that the faith we place in the accuracy of the message comes close to blind faith, the faith we put in Jesus is based on our knowing him personally. That is not blind, that is definitely based on personal knowledge and acquaintance; it is relational faith.

well if the book is corrupted or not, if you know some history about JEsus a.s or not, and if all this doesn't matter, than what could be other than blind faith?? following something without any proof. not even a single one.

As far as my views being Kufr, I find it interesting that no Muslim who knows me personally (from actually meeting me face-to-face) has ever said that. Surely I seem that way on here as we argue over detailed points of theology. But Muslims who have lived in my home (and I would guess know me best) have said that indeed they cannot call me as such. Perhaps they are simply hoping the best for me because of our personal relationship. Or perhaps they know something about me that those who find my views to be shirk have not yet looked deep enough to see.

of course, I mean I can't come up and just say "hey you are doing kufr", or find someone on the road and tell him, but if we engage on a conversation, then I have to tell you that you are doing kufr, and it's my responsebility to tell you . and you may percieve it as a bad thing, but it's a good thing, cuz it is trying to remind you and keep away from going Hell. maybe you think it's a bad thing now, but later you will realize that it was a good thing. but anyways what's the point of it being a good reminder when you don't believe on the message. so don't get offended when somebody calls you a kafir or that you are commiting kufr. it's just words, to explain that you have disbelief according to a muslim. now what tone he/she uses to tell you that word, that's a different thing.

[vpb]

btw, forgot to explain the term Tawheed.

Tawheed = Oneness of Allah swt. ;D

[Phil12123]

You may find it hard to believe, but I believed that what you described was the truth until I was a senior in college. Others will question if I was sincere and had a "personal relationship" with Jesus. Well, I can't even answer that myself after 25 years, but it is difficult for me to imagine now that I once believed that way.

My concept of Allah is now such that it is unimaginable for Him to have a Son or to have became a human in order to suffer as Jesus is believed (by Christians) to have suffered on the cross in order to redeem man from his sins. It is unimaginable to me for God to be born of a woman and to die. To me the Glory of Allah is too much for humans to bear to look upon even if only one-millioneth (sp?) of Him was present in Jesus. Yet Christians believe that Jesus was 100% God and 100% human.

I do remember that as a Christian the emphasis in my worship was on Jesus and specifically him on the cross dying for my sins. As a Muslim I now disassociate from ever putting anyone or anything as equal with Allah. I see Jesus as a human, born of the Virgin Mary, a servant of Allah and His Messenger to the lost sheep of Israel. So, if it is as you say, "If we reject it, we simply sentence OURSELVES to an eternity paying for our own sins" then that is a choice that I have already made. Yes, it was a difficult thing for me to give up that security blanket of Jesus' blood, but an analogy for me now is realizing that Santa Claus doesn't really exist. Yes, it is an unimaginably scary/fearful thought to stand before Allah with nothing but my belief in One God and my puny attempts at worship such as prayer, fasting, and charity and my so-called good deeds. I am indeed at His Mercy.

Wow, you hit the nail on the head when you say, it is an unimaginably scary/fearful thought to stand before Allah with nothing but your belief in One God and your attempts at worship, etc. I am afraid for you, and I really mean that. I wish there was something I could do to help you see the error of your way in giving up that "security blanket" as you call it. Only the blood of Jesus can wash away your sins and you have cast it off. Wow. Scary can hardly describe it.

And for what? To embrace "Tawheed"? But is believing there is one God (which Christians believe too, believe it or not) going to save you from hell? Are you any better off than monotheistic Jews?

This verse comes to mind: James 2:19 - - "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble!" The demons don't just believe there is one God---they KNOW it. But that doesn't save them.

Peace

[vpb]

And for what? To embrace "Tawheed"?

if you would now about the sweetness of tawheed, even if you wouldn't have arms/legs, you would drag yourself on the ground, to reach it :)
I can imagine how MustafaMc feels. once you embrace tha concept of tawheed, you wouldn't give it up , for nothing. It's a very worthy thing. I know that everyones tries to put the 'sweetness' of their faiths in front, but there is no such things as tawheed. it's unique. you can't find something similar to it nowhere.. It's a thing, which nothing can reach its degree.

if you want , read this article:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-beliefs/43570-importance-tawheed.html

[Malaikah]

Wow, you hit the nail on the head when you say, it is an unimaginably scary/fearful thought to stand before Allah with nothing but your belief in One God and your attempts at worship, etc.

It is not scary, because Allah has promised us forgiveness as long as we are sincere, and He made it so that our actions can save us, by His Mercy. Even thought our actions are never enough to save us from Hell and admit us into Paradise, He will let them be anyway.

Now what is scary is standing in front of Allah with unforgiven sins and few good deeds.

By the way, Allah has promised that 70,000 times 70,000 Muslims will be admitted into Paradise without being put to trial at all. May He make us of them, ameen.

I am afraid for you, and I really mean that. I wish there was something I could do to help you see the error of your way in giving up that "security blanket" as you call it. Only the blood of Jesus can wash away your sins and you have cast it off. Wow. Scary can hardly describe it.

We are afraid for you also, we might be facing Allah with nothing but your good deeds, but you will be facing Him having worshipped other than Him.......:(

[vpb]

We are afraid for you also, we might be facing Allah with nothing but your good deeds, but you will be facing Him having worshipped other than Him.......

4:47
O you who have been given the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have revealed (to Muhammad SAW) confirming what is (already) with you, before We efface faces (by making them like the back of necks; without nose, mouth, eyes, etc.) and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath­breakers. And the Commandment of Allah is always executed.

4:48
Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases, and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin.

[Woodrow]

Phil of course I will see things different than you do. But here is my perspective of Paul's letter to the Galatians.

Galatians 1 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

Galatians 1

1Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

2And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

3Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

19But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

20Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

21Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;

22And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:

23But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

24And they glorified God in me.

What I see is that this was occurring at the time of Paul. This is not a prophecy of things that were to occur but are events that took place in the churches of Galatian.

To me this verifies that the gospel was already being altered. the people of Galatia were not using the same words Paul was preaching.

Now I also see something else strange it does not appear that Paul was using the Gospels of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke in his preaching.

11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

To me this is evidence that Paul was preaching something different than what was preached by Jesus(as). I am certain he believes he was revealed this directly from Jesus(as) But......??????? What if it was not Jesus(as) Paul heard?

[Redeemed]

At the moment you are convinced that you believe that you are offering a great gift to those that do not have it. If we deny accepting what you see as a gift you will probably see yourself as weak and incapable of spreading what you believe to be the truth. It is by convincing others that you will be reinforced of the power of what you believe.




Look at your posts. Do they not seem to be the words of a person who is waving his beliefs as a banner to those who believe different. In the past few days your posts have become much more emotional and seem to indicate frustration and possibly even some anger at your words not being headed.



Of course I am. This is an Islamic forum and my open goal is to promote Islam. I have 2 desires here one is to help remove the misconceptions people have about Islam and the other is to pray that readers will learn enough about Islam to make an educated choice as accepting or rejecting it.




Who was the trinity to you when you were a Christian,

When I was a Christian I saw the trinity as a single God(swt) revealed in three persons, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

and who is the trinity now that you are a Muslim

Now I see the concept of the trinity as an erroneous attempt to attribute Human Characteristics to God(swt). I believe people have made the error of attributing Godlike characteristics to a wonderful Prophet(PBUH) and have by doing so attempted to create God(swt) in their own image. I do believe most if not all Christians do believe they are worshiping a single God(swt) but they fail to see that they have established a false image that they believe is God(swt)

who was the trinity to you when you were a Buddist?

That is a moot point, because as a Buddhist I saw God(swt) as being the fabric of the universe and not as an entity. Also I was not a very good Buddhist, I was more of an agnostic in search of the truth. I had tried various Christian beliefs and found them all to be preaching a false message and demeaning the true nature of Isa(as). Throughout my 40 years as a self proclaimed Buddhist I did attend and belonged to several different Christian denominations at various times. The one I felt the closest to and the most Christlike is the UMC and I do still have a warm feeling to them as I found them to be truly sincere in their beliefs and fully understanding of my not being receptive to their beliefs.

Christianity ceased to be Christian when people began worshiping Isa(as)



The concept of the Trinity is not a teaching from God(swt) Why would it be in the Qur'an or even of any meaning to Muhammad(PBUH)?

I don't want you to have that impressioon of me because its false.
Where is it in the Qur'an that can back up why Muslims believe that Mary was part of the trinity?

[vpb]

His view of Christianity may have been only of the Catholics who, to him, were no better than those who worshipped many gods.

you don't get the point. It's not his views. bc he didn't speak of his views or desires. He spoke what was revelaed to him . So he didn't speak about christianity or anything from his own conclusions.

I find it interesting that the myth did not totally discount crucifixion, or that Jesus was going to be crucified, or that someone was in fact crucified. Those historical facts remained intact. The historical fact that it was Jesus was simply denied, though there is NO historical evidence to support that.

do u have historical facts that Jesus was crucified that you are saying there is no historical fact that he was not crucified?

No historian of that era comes forth to say Judas or anyone else was crucified instead of Jesus. It is merely Muhammad's word that the angel Gabriel told him that, and nothing more.

in the problem with Jesus's crucifiction, history is too young to remember. and Qur'an does not deny crucifiction as an event, but it denies that Jesus a.s was on the cross. So it appeared to them that it was Jesus a.s , but in fact He wasnt. Do you have any evidence that Jesus a.s himself was on the cross??

[Phil12123]

Phil of course I will see things different than you do. But here is my perspective of Paul's letter to the Galatians.

What I see is that this was occurring at the time of Paul. This is not a prophecy of things that were to occur but are events that took place in the churches of Galatian.

To me this verifies that the gospel was already being altered. the people of Galatia were not using the same words Paul was preaching.

Now I also see something else strange it does not appear that Paul was using the Gospels of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke in his preaching.

To me this is evidence that Paul was preaching something different than what was preached by Jesus(as). I am certain he believes he was revealed this directly from Jesus(as) But......??????? What if it was not Jesus(as) Paul heard?

In his letter to the Galatians, Paul was addressing them in particular and the situtation that existed there. There were Judaizers who were possibly Jewish converts to Christianity but they were telling Gentile converts that they had to be circumcised and obey the law of Moses in addition to believing in Jesus and His death for their sins. Paul never preached circumcism or Law-keeping as part of the Gospel of the grace of God, and therefore condemned the false teachers who sought to bring new believers back into bondage.

The Gospel that Paul preached is defined and spelled out in his first letter to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 15:
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2. by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you unless you believed in vain.
3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4. and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5. and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
6. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
7. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
8. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
9. For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

The Gospel that Paul received from Jesus Christ is simply that "Christ died for our sins...and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day." His statement that he did not receive it from men is simply to let them know that this wasn't just his opinion or somone else's opinion but the Truth of God that he got from Jesus Himself. There is nothing inconsistent between this statement of the Gospel and that which the original 11 apostles (later 12) were told to go into all the world and preach (Matt. 28; Mark 16; etc.).

Luke 24:
44. Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.''
45. And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46. Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47. "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48. "And you are witnesses of these things.
49. "Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.''
50. And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them.
51. Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven.
52. And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
53. and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. Amen.

Here, after His crucifixion and resurrection, Jesus fully explains why it was necessary for Him to suffer and die and rise from the dead, all in fulfillment of what was written of Him in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms. His own disciples did not understand until then, though He had told them in advance that He would be crucified and rise from the dead:

Matthew 16:
21. From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!''
23. But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.''

Notice v. 21, how He told them what would happen to Him, but notice also vv.22-23 and what appears to be a harsh rebuke of Peter by Jesus. The spirit that moved Peter to say, No, this will never happen to you, is exactly the same spirit that told Muhammad that No, it never happened to Jesus. Notice the identity of the spirit in v. 23.

[NoName55]

what was I supposed to post from the hadith

and what would be the point if it is not ne4ccessarily true

Then, perhaps stop posting lies in the first place? or ought to be made to stop?

[Redeemed]

Then, perhaps stop posting lies in the first place? or ought to be made to stop?

First of all, that post wasn't directed at you and what lies? Very one on this forum knows I spoke the truth:D

[Woodrow]

Very, very interesting,:) You can see the difference from the moon. I can see the difference too the Son is bigger than the moon:laugh: By the way, what was I supposed to post from the hadith,:exhausted :? and what would be the point if it is not neccessarily true:? :rollseyes

The hadith requires who it was from (ie: Bukhari, Dawud etc) plus the the Book, Paragraph and line. Like this for example.

Shahi Bukhari.
Book 3. Knowledge.


Volumn 001, Book 003, Hadith Number 056.


None of us have ever heard of a Hadith that contains that and can not find it.


The point if it is not necessarily true, would mean there is no verification for the statement.

[vpb]

2:23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

3:7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

7:1. Praise be Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth, and made the darkness and the light. Yet those who reject Faith hold (others) as equal, with their Guardian-Lord.
7:2. He it is created you from clay, and then decreed a stated term (for you). And there is in His presence another determined term; yet ye doubt within yourselves!

[MustafaMc]

Have you heard of "Satanic verse" This is where Muhammad oscillates bwt revelations from Satan and Allah: "Did you consider al-hat and al-Uzza And al-Manat, the third, the other? Those are the swans exalted; Their intercession is expected; Their likes are not neglected." As I had mentioned, this shocked Muhammad's disciples because there is a concession to paganism here. Muhammad withdrew his revelation because Satan deceived him. Muhammad also improved on God’s word. In other words, he changed Allah’s wisdom for his own on many occasions. The Prophet’s nonchalant emendations can be found in the hadith. For instance, when the Prophet said, “And God is mighty and wise” (aziz, hakim), ‘Abdollah b. Abi Sarh suggested writing down “knowing and wise” (alim, hakim) the Prophet had no objection. Muhammad has done this on other ocassions as well. As a result ‘Abdollah renounced Islam and joined the Qoray****es. He felt that it is an errant spirit that could modify the word of Allah.

I believe that you are misled and misinformed. If you are sincere you will you will take the time to read this post and you will see that what you referred to as "Satanic Verses" was actually an slanderous insertion by the early enemies of Islam to discredit Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). He did not withdraw this so-called revelation or modify it - these are words of others that they claimed Muhammad (pbuh) said. I could find no reference to your other claims.

Historical background in Alim software for Surah 53.
The details of the period of revelation as given above point to the conditions in which this Surah was revealed. During the first five years of his appointment as a Prophet, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had been extending invitation to Allah's Religion by presenting the Divine Revelations before the people only in private and restricted meetings and assemblies. During this whole period he could never have a chance to recite the Quran before a common gathering openly, mainly because of the strong opposition and resistance from the disbelievers. They were well aware of how magnetic and captivating was the Holy Prophet's personality and his way of preaching and how impressive were the Revelations of the Quran. Therefore, they tried their best to avoid hearing it themselves and to stop others also from hearing it and to suppress his invitation by false propaganda by spreading every kind of suspicion against him. For this object, on the one hand, they were telling the people that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had gone astray and was now bent upon misleading others as well; on the other hand, they would raise an uproar whenever he tried to present the Quran before the people so that no one could know what it was for which he was being branded as a misled and misguided person.

Such were the conditions when the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) suddenly stood up one day to make a speech in the sacred precincts of the Ka'bah, where a large number of the Quraish had gathered together. Allah at that time made him deliver this discourse, which we have now in the form of the Surah An-Najm with us. Such was the intensity of the impression that when the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) started reciting it the opponents were so completely overwhelmed that they could not think of raising any disorder, and when at the conclusion he fell down in prostration, they too fell down in prostration along with him. Later they felt great remorse at the weakness they had involuntarily shown. The people also started taunting them to the effect that whereas they had been forbidding others to listen to the Quran, that day not only had they themselves listened to it, with complete absorption but had even fallen down in prostration along with Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). At last, they had to invent a story in order to get rid of the people's taunt and ridicule. They said, "After he had recited afara'ait-ul Lata wal Uzza wa Manat ath-thalitha-al ukhra, we heard from Muhammad the words: tilk al-gharaniqa- tal-'ula, wa anna shafa'at-u-hunna latarja: 'They are exalted goddesses: indeed, their intercession may be expected.' From this we understood that Muhammad had returned to our faith." As a matter of fact, only a mad person could think that in the context of this Surah the sentences they claimed to have heard could have any place and relevance.



Quran 53:19 Have you ever seen Lat and Uzza

20 and another, the last third Manat (names of Arabian idols, claimed by the pagans of Makkah to be the daughters of Allah)?

21 Are you to have sons, and He the daughters?

22 This indeed is an unfair division! These (Lat, Uzza and Manat) are nothing but names which you and your forefathers have invented, for Allah has vested no authority in them. The unbelievers follow nothing but mere conjecture and the whims of their own souls, even though right guidance has already come to them from their Rabb.

24 Or should man have whatever he wishes?

25 Nay! To Allah belongs the hereafter and this present life.

WHY MUST YOU STRUGGLE SO HARD TO DISCREDIT ISLAM???????

[vpb]

it is almost alway someone else who comes to your rescue,

wallahi they will not be able to rescue themselves from the punishment of Allah az.

Surah Al-Baqara
2:166. Then would those who are followed clear themselves of those who follow (them) : They would see the penalty, and all relations between them would be cut off.

[MustafaMc]

Abdullah Ibn Sad Ibn Abi Sarh: Where Is the Truth?

Muhammad Ghoniem & M S M Saifullah

© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance:
This article is meant to answer the claims put forward by the Christian missionaries.
The author of that article claims that cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh, one of the scribes of the Prophet Muhammad(P), has contributed to the Qur'ânic text. Let us examine the references used by the author to support his claims and sort out his arguments in the light of famous Islamic resources.......

Excellent response, my brother. I definitely learned something from your post.

It is good to know that some people reference their source of information. It would be good if everyone kept away from plagarism.

[Phil12123]

Perhaps that is the most telling point of all - that I would be willing to reject that guaranteed "get out of Hell, free" card (which is believing that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for my sins) and to rather accept the uncertainity of standing before Allah with nothing but my belief in One God and striving to follow the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad. Perhaps, I have come to believe to my core that the "card" is merely a piece of paper with a few words written on it and has no more value than Monopoly money. I choose to believe that Allah has no son or partner and have faith that His Mercy is sufficient for me. The doubts come in when I remember how poorly I compare to the model for how to live my life and how to worship Allah.

Wow, that is still soooooo scary. But you apparently are happy with the tremendous risk you are taking that the "card" you now consider of no more value than Monopoly money, is actually the only thing that will keep you out of hell. Reminds me of these verses:

Hebrews 10:
23. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
24. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
25. not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
26. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing [having no real value], and insulted the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:
20. For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit,'' and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.''

[vpb]

Phil12123, you don't realize do u? I said before, once someone embraces the concept of Tawheed, that's it, he/she won't give it up, it's the sweetest thing in the world. It's unique. So don't expect someone who has understood the concept of Tawheed, to drop it, cuz he/she wont. Unless Allah swt wants.

you'll just lose time.

[Malaikah]

You must be reading non-Christian sources, perhaps Jewish sources.

Jewish sources? I think not... In Islam we believe that every single human will sin. The Prophets of course sinned much less than normal humans such as my self (much much less). And they were always quick to repent for their sins. And the sins were never as major as the sins committed by Prophets in the OT (adultery/murder).

Jesus was as human as the rest of us and would have committed very minor sins as well.

That might not be Christian belief but it is Muslim belief.

[Redeemed]

I believe that you are misled and misinformed. If you are sincere you will you will take the time to read this post and you will see that what you referred to as "Satanic Verses" was actually an slanderous insertion by the early enemies of Islam to discredit Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). He did not withdraw this so-called revelation or modify it - these are words of others that they claimed Muhammad (pbuh) said. I could find no reference to your other claims.

Historical background in Alim software for Surah 53.
The details of the period of revelation as given above point to the conditions in which this Surah was revealed. During the first five years of his appointment as a Prophet, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had been extending invitation to Allah's Religion by presenting the Divine Revelations before the people only in private and restricted meetings and assemblies. During this whole period he could never have a chance to recite the Quran before a common gathering openly, mainly because of the strong opposition and resistance from the disbelievers. They were well aware of how magnetic and captivating was the Holy Prophet's personality and his way of preaching and how impressive were the Revelations of the Quran. Therefore, they tried their best to avoid hearing it themselves and to stop others also from hearing it and to suppress his invitation by false propaganda by spreading every kind of suspicion against him. For this object, on the one hand, they were telling the people that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had gone astray and was now bent upon misleading others as well; on the other hand, they would raise an uproar whenever he tried to present the Quran before the people so that no one could know what it was for which he was being branded as a misled and misguided person.

Such were the conditions when the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) suddenly stood up one day to make a speech in the sacred precincts of the Ka'bah, where a large number of the Quraish had gathered together. Allah at that time made him deliver this discourse, which we have now in the form of the Surah An-Najm with us. Such was the intensity of the impression that when the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) started reciting it the opponents were so completely overwhelmed that they could not think of raising any disorder, and when at the conclusion he fell down in prostration, they too fell down in prostration along with him. Later they felt great remorse at the weakness they had involuntarily shown. The people also started taunting them to the effect that whereas they had been forbidding others to listen to the Quran, that day not only had they themselves listened to it, with complete absorption but had even fallen down in prostration along with Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). At last, they had to invent a story in order to get rid of the people's taunt and ridicule. They said, "After he had recited afara'ait-ul Lata wal Uzza wa Manat ath-thalitha-al ukhra, we heard from Muhammad the words: tilk al-gharaniqa- tal-'ula, wa anna shafa'at-u-hunna latarja: 'They are exalted goddesses: indeed, their intercession may be expected.' From this we understood that Muhammad had returned to our faith." As a matter of fact, only a mad person could think that in the context of this Surah the sentences they claimed to have heard could have any place and relevance.



Quran 53:19 Have you ever seen Lat and Uzza

20 and another, the last third Manat (names of Arabian idols, claimed by the pagans of Makkah to be the daughters of Allah)?

21 Are you to have sons, and He the daughters?

22 This indeed is an unfair division! These (Lat, Uzza and Manat) are nothing but names which you and your forefathers have invented, for Allah has vested no authority in them. The unbelievers follow nothing but mere conjecture and the whims of their own souls, even though right guidance has already come to them from their Rabb.

24 Or should man have whatever he wishes?

25 Nay! To Allah belongs the hereafter and this present life.

WHY MUST YOU STRUGGLE SO HARD TO DISCREDIT ISLAM???????

I am not sure i can answer your question in such a way that would satisfy you. I think you have been very polite and sincere on this forum, and it should be a model. The fact is I just got a Qur’an, and I have been reading it. It is very ambiguous to me and full of contradictions as well. I am sincere as well as I believe you are. You shouldn’t have to put the "If you are sincere" clause in here. I love one God just as you do. I seek paradise just as you do. I want you in paradise as I believe you want for me. The Qur’an states that Christians will go to paradise, and in another place says they will go to hell Surah 2:62 and 5:69. Tell me what I should do. If I can go to heaven according to Islam for being a Christian, it behooves me to remain one, because the destiny is not hopeful for the Muslim according to Christianity. So of course, I want you to come out of what is not conducive to your salvation. You cannot accuse me of not being sincere about this as some have done to me on this forum. Some want me off of it in the worse way possible. I pray that God would remove me from this forum if I am not doing His biding, because the last thing I want to do is hurt, unless of course that hurt leads to true healing.
:)

[MustafaMc]

I am not sure i can answer your question in such a way that would satisfy you. I think you have been very polite and sincere on this forum, and it should be a model. The fact is I just got a Qur’an, and I have been reading it. It is very ambiguous to me and full of contradictions as well. I am sincere as well as I believe you are. You shouldn’t have to put the "If you are sincere" clause in here. I love one God just as you do. I seek paradise just as you do. I want you in paradise as I believe you want for me. The Qur’an states that Christians will go to paradise, and in another place says they will go to hell Surah 2:62 and 5:69. Tell me what I should do. If I can go to heaven according to Islam for being a Christian, it behooves me to remain one, because the destiny is not hopeful for the Muslim according to Christianity. So of course, I want you to come out of what is not conducive to your salvation. You cannot accuse me of not being sincere about this as some have done to me on this forum. Some want me off of it in the worse way possible. I pray that God would remove me from this forum if I am not doing His biding, because the last thing I want to do is hurt, unless of course that hurt leads to true healing.
:)

Perhaps, one more knowledgeable than me can address this issue. A few relevant ayat and a hadith.

Quran 2:62 Rest assured that Believers (Muslims), Jews, Christians and Sabians - whoever believes in Allah and the last day and perform good deeds - will be rewarded by their Rabb; they will have nothing to fear or to regret.

Quran 3:113-115 Yet they are not all alike: there are some among the People of the Book who are upright, who recite the revelations of Allah all night long and then prostrate before Him; they believe in Allah and the Last Day they enjoin good and forbid evil and rush in emulating each other in good deeds. These are the righteous people. Whatever good they do, its reward will not be denied to them; Allah knows the righteous.

4:47-48 O people of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have now revealed (The Qur'an), confirming your own scriptures, before We obliterate your faces and turn them backward, or lay Our curse on you as We laid Our curse on the Sabbath-breakers: and remember that Allah's command is always executed. Surely Allah does not forgive shirk (associating any partner with Him); and may forgive sins other than that if He so pleases. This is because one who commits shirk with Allah, does indeed invent a great sinful lie.

Sahih Muslim hadith 64 Narrated AbuHurayrah The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) observed: By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.

[MustafaMc]

Wow, that is still soooooo scary. But you apparently are happy with the tremendous risk you are taking that the "card" you now consider of no more value than Monopoly money, is actually the only thing that will keep you out of hell. Reminds me of these verses:

Whether you admit it or not, (if there is a Life After Death with Heaven and Hell as we both believe) then we will both have to "wait and see" where we will go. Your assurances of salvation are based on your BELIEF that the Bible is the inerrant, literal Word of Father, Son and Holy Spirit; whereas, my hope of salvation is based on my BELIEF that the Quran is the inerrant, literal Word of the One God. The differences between us is that you rely upon your belief that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for your sins and and I rely upon my faith in the One God and following the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad. Ultimately, Christians rely upon the blood of the Lamb to wash away their sins while Muslims rely upon the Mercy of Allah to directly forgive them without the need for an "atoning sacrifice."

As I have said before, I have made my decision and I can not return to believing that Jesus is the Son of God. Rather.....

I bear witness that there is no god, but One God and Muhammad is His Messenger!

[Redeemed]

Perhaps, one more knowledgeable than me can address this issue. A few relevant ayat and a hadith.

Quran 2:62 Rest assured that Believers (Muslims), Jews, Christians and Sabians - whoever believes in Allah and the last day and perform good deeds - will be rewarded by their Rabb; they will have nothing to fear or to regret.

Quran 3:113-115 Yet they are not all alike: there are some among the People of the Book who are upright, who recite the revelations of Allah all night long and then prostrate before Him; they believe in Allah and the Last Day they enjoin good and forbid evil and rush in emulating each other in good deeds. These are the righteous people. Whatever good they do, its reward will not be denied to them; Allah knows the righteous.

4:47-48 O people of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have now revealed (The Qur'an), confirming your own scriptures, before We obliterate your faces and turn them backward, or lay Our curse on you as We laid Our curse on the Sabbath-breakers: and remember that Allah's command is always executed. Surely Allah does not forgive shirk (associating any partner with Him); and may forgive sins other than that if He so pleases. This is because one who commits shirk with Allah, does indeed invent a great sinful lie.

Sahih Muslim hadith 64 Narrated AbuHurayrah The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) observed: By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.

I understand. That is fine. Please keep in mind; however, it is not my heart to associate anyone with with God. I believe in my heart of hearts that God is one and has NO partners. No one has the right to judge me without this judgment falling on them 100 fold. I promise that is truth. I Love God, and I have something that Muslims don't. That is a relationship with Him. I can talk to him and he responds and shows me things, and He even spanks me on ocassion, because He loves me. I enjoy my relationship with the Lord, and I can tell you that His Spirit bears witness witn mine that I am His. I want you to have what I do. I believe that God LOVES YOU MORE THAN YOU CAN UNDERSTAND AND LOVES YOU PERSONALLY AS IF YOU WERE THE ONLY ONE IN THE WORLD. YOU ARE THAT SPECIAL TO HIM. I WOULD DO ANYTHING TO HELP YOU SEE IT. SINCERELY:-[

[Phil12123]

Jewish sources? I think not... In Islam we believe that every single human will sin. The Prophets of course sinned much less than normal humans such as my self (much much less). And they were always quick to repent for their sins. And the sins were never as major as the sins committed by Prophets in the OT (adultery/murder).

Jesus was as human as the rest of us and would have committed very minor sins as well.

That might not be Christian belief but it is Muslim belief.

Do you have any specifics, according to Muslim belief, other than "very minor sins"? Anything in the Quran or elsewhere accusing Him of anything?

[Woodrow]

Do you have any specifics, according to Muslim belief, other than "very minor sins"? Anything in the Quran or elsewhere accusing Him of anything?

Not of Him nor of any Prophets. We do not believe in the pointing out of even minor sins of any Believer.

[evangel]

4:47-48 O people of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have now revealed (The Qur'an), confirming your own scriptures

The Mormons (specifically Joseph Smith), the Jehovah's Witnesses, Reverend Moon and Lord knows how many others have brought out the same argument. People have changed scripture and they have been personally chosen by God to set the record straight, blah, blah, blah... It is a tired argument and holds no water. Christianity didn't rewrite scripture, it reveals the new covenant God made with us because we finally realized what He knew from the start; we could not restore our relationship with Him, He had to restore it with us.

before We obliterate your faces and turn them backward

The biggest difference between Islam and the rest is that Mohammed has more followers and they're meaner.

[MustafaMc]

The Mormons (specifically Joseph Smith), the Jehovah's Witnesses, Reverend Moon and Lord knows how many others have brought out the same argument. People have changed scripture and they have been personally chosen by God to set the record straight, blah, blah, blah... It is a tired argument and holds no water. Christianity didn't rewrite scripture, it reveals the new covenant God made with us because we finally realized what He knew from the start; we could not restore our relationship with Him, He had to restore it with us.

Quran 4:47-48 O people of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have now revealed (The Qur'an), confirming your own scriptures, before We obliterate your faces and turn them backward, or lay Our curse on you as We laid Our curse on the Sabbath-breakers: and remember that Allah's command is always executed. Surely Allah does not forgive shirk (associating any partner with Him); and may forgive sins other than that if He so pleases. This is because one who commits shirk with Allah, does indeed invent a great sinful lie.

The biggest difference between Islam and the rest is that Mohammed has more followers and they're meaner.

The punishement that you picked out from the ayat I quoted is from Allah, not from the Muslims. And, yes, Christians claiming that Jesus is the Son of God is indeed a "great sinful lie".

[Phil12123]

Jesus a.s will not be able to help himself, let alone MustafaMC or me, or u.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. This so illustrates how irreconcilably different our respective faiths are. Jesus is God, so He doesn't need "to help himself"; He is in fact the One on the throne judging all of mankind:

John 5:
21. "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22. "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23. "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

And He has already helped you, and MustafaMc, and me, by dying for our sins. It will be too late, though, for any help when the Judgment occurs. By then, all of us will have died and any opportunity to receive Him as Savior and Lord will have been cut off. If that did not occur before death, it will never occur, although you will bow your knee and confess that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of the Father (Phil. 2:9-11). But that will not make Him your Savior, so you will be without salvation and the only issue then will be the punishment of your sins.

[vpb]

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. This so illustrates how irreconcilably different our respective faiths are. Jesus is God, so He doesn't need "to help himself"; He is in fact the One on the throne judging all of mankind:

John 5:
21. "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22. "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23. "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

I know that in your beliefs Jesus a.s is God, but I was making a general statement, that Jesus is not God, so he can't even help himself.

And He has already helped you, and MustafaMc, and me, by dying for our sins. It will be too late, though, for any help when the Judgment occurs. By then, all of us will have died and any opportunity to receive Him as Savior and Lord will have been cut off. If that did not occur before death, it will never occur, although you will bow your knee and confess that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of the Father (Phil. 2:9-11). But that will not make Him your Savior, so you will be without salvation and the only issue then will be the punishment of your sins.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! :p
Jesus did not die, he was raised up in the heaven :)

[Phil12123]

@Phil12123: when are you getting back to these?
http://www.islamicboard.com/762337-post612.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/762361-post613.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/762363-post614.html

Sorry about that. I didn't see your last post. However, I wouldn't know how to answer you without your referring to specifics. What specifically, in terms of different content, are you speaking of?

[Phil12123]

I know that in your beliefs Jesus a.s is God, but I was making a general statement, that Jesus is not God, so he can't even help himself.

Yes, a general statement, according to your beliefs. And I would agree that if He weren't God He couldn't help me or you. We would be on our own, having to pay for all our sins ourselves. A very depressing thought, indeed, because we are both sinners and if HE didn't pay for our sins, we are both in BIG trouble.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! :p
Jesus did not die, he was raised up in the heaven :)

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! If He didn't die, WHO did? And where is his dead body? How did it disappear when a bunch of soldiers guarded the tomb and there was huge rock in front of it, sealed closed? Your story, which you believe and stake your eternal destiny on, doesn't even make sense. Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.

Jesus told his disciples in advance that He would be crucified and rise from the dead:

Matthew 16:
21. From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!''
23. But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.''

Notice v. 21, how He told them what would happen to Him, but notice also vv.22-23 and what appears to be a harsh rebuke of Peter by Jesus. The spirit that moved Peter to say, No, this will never happen to you, is exactly the same spirit that told Muhammad that No, it never happened to Jesus. Notice the identity of the spirit in v. 23.

[noodles]

You know, I don't mean any offence towards any Christians, but I'm still trying to understand the concept of "killing god."

I understand that most(probably all) Christians believe that Jesus (a.s) died on the cross for the sins of Mankind. So what exactly is the purpose of "God" letting his creation kill Him?

[Woodrow]

Phil,

One big problem is we do not have any mutual grounds of acceptable proof.

You believe the Bible is true and that all is as it is written and that The words about Isa(as) are the true words. The teachings of the Qur'an you view as being full of errors and not to be trusted,

I believe that the Qur'an is the truth and the words in it about Isa(as) are the truth. I view the teachings of the Bible to be full of errors and are not to be trusted.


Both of us have what we each do believe are valid reasons to believe as we do.

Until we can come to an agreement as to which is truly the word of God(swt) we will have no mutual source to base our debates upon.

all we can do is stand here telling each other of the errors we believe we see.

as long as we can do this without malice, it can be constructive, at least in terms of learning that somewhere within each of us, we are all Human and share the same feelings if not the same beliefs.

[Phil12123]

You know, I don't mean any offence towards any Christians, but I'm still trying to understand the concept of "killing god."

I understand that most(probably all) Christians believe that Jesus (a.s) died on the cross for the sins of Mankind. So what exactly is the purpose of "God" letting his creation kill Him?

You answered your own question. Read your last two sentences.

Q. What is the purpose...?
A. Jesus died on the cross for the sins of Mankind.

Got another question?

[Phil12123]

Phil,

One big problem is we do not have any mutual grounds of acceptable proof.

You believe the Bible is true and that all is as it is written and that The words about Isa(as) are the true words. The teachings of the Qur'an you view as being full of errors and not to be trusted,

I believe that the Qur'an is the truth and the words in it about Isa(as) are the truth. I view the teachings of the Bible to be full of errors and are not to be trusted.

Both of us have what we each do believe are valid reasons to believe as we do.

Until we can come to an agreement as to which is truly the word of God(swt) we will have no mutual source to base our debates upon.

all we can do is stand here telling each other of the errors we believe we see.

as long as we can do this without malice, it can be constructive, at least in terms of learning that somewhere within each of us, we are all Human and share the same feelings if not the same beliefs.

I think what you have said is very true. We have concluded that we do share some beliefs in common. Recall the list of 9 things we could agree on; the first four were beliefs we have in common, primarily relating to the existence of sin, which will keep us all out of heaven if not dealt with. That's a good start, but the crucial items that followed were all based on what each of us has accepted or rejected as the source of Truth, that which we see as the word of God. So, you are very right. Until we can come to agreement as to which is truly the word of God, we will have no mutual source to base our debates on, at least not as to that ultimate source, the word of God. We can look as historical sources and probably agree that they may be neutral, simply stating historical facts. But even then one of us might dispute their accurancy if they contradict what we have accepted as the word of God. Historians can be wrong. God is never wrong. The issue then is, Did God really say such and such? Back to square one.

In presenting a case to a jury, each side presents evidence to support what it seeks to prove. In the U.S., if it is a criminal case, the proof of the prosecution must be beyond a reasonable doubt, not every possible doubt, but a reasonable doubt. In a civil case, it is a less stringent standard---proof by a preponderance of the evidence, or by a greater weight of the evidence.

In our discussions, we each present an argument to add to the "proof" of our respective positions, sometimes back and forth. But there really isn't a jury that weighs it all and decides a verdict pro or con either side. So, it might seem pointless to even advance one side or the other. We each will come away from it believing the same thing, though perhaps understanding the other side's "evidence" better than before we ever heard it. And perhaps that's the best we can expect---we each can better understand why each of us believes what we believe. On the issue of the Trinity, though, I think we both understand that, don't we? There may be others, new posters, who come onboard and not understand what we do, that need to hear what we have to say. If they could just go back and read all the posts they might learn all they need to know. But most of them will "come in at the tail end of the conversation," as my dad used to say, and just want a quick answer to the same question we've been discussing and posting about for 40+ pages.

[vpb]

If you want non-Biblical accounts of Christ's crucifiction, I believe Tacitus wrote something about the "Messiah" of the Jews being crucified and causing alot of problems. I will try to find the name of that writing and maybe find an on-line edition of it.

u didn't get my point, as for historical evidences, writings of people, u give me one, I give u hundred, but what I'm asking was scientific evidence for the crucificion of Jesus a.s. We have evidence about Pharaoh which is much older than Jesus a.s. But we don't have any about Jesus crucificion. So what I'm trying to say is that don't go and tell people who have opposite ideas of what u believe that

Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.

. when you can't bring evidence yourself. it's foolish.
so the only place we base our history is the Qur'an or the Bible.

[Grace Seeker]

cuz you guys not that u don't have the biographies of these disciples, but you even don't have a full biography about Jesus. so I don't want to hear about peters or pauls, cuz they have nothing to do with Jesus a.s . They didn't teach what Jesus taught.
Just bc you tell me that Peter was a fisherman, it doesn't prove to me who he was, or what he did or was he pious or what.
The bible is just one of the layers of the gospel of Q, so there is no point of me beliving on it.

There is no such thing as a complete biography of anyone's life. Always biographers include somethings and leave out others. Even if a biography recorded every minute of activity, the biographer would not have access to all of a person's thoughts and these to are part of giving someone's biography.

But the gospels were never intended as a biography. They were intended as proclamation. And they do that job exceedingly well.

Jesus a.s was not on the cross, so he didn't get killed. so the question of "where is his dead body", falls, bc he was not on the cross, and he was raised up in the heaven.

As you said yourself: "ok, bring on the proof....I dont want historical fact, I want scientific fact !!! So don't give me stories allright? bring me scientifical evidence."

[vpb]

There is no such thing as a complete biography of anyone's life. Always biographers include somethings and leave out others. Even if a biography recorded every minute of activity, the biographer would not have access to all of a person's thoughts and these to are part of giving someone's biography.

what are you talking about? the biography of Jesus is incomplete. totally incomplete. Even the biography of Napoleon Bonaparta is more complete than that of Jesus. and as for the biography of Prophet Muhammed saws, there is no need to discuss on that. We can start his biography even from his grand grandfathers. http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b7111.html you can get one of these, a 800+ pages of biography.

But the gospels were never intended as a biography. They were intended as proclamation. And they do that job exceedingly well.

and I wasn't saying if Gospel should be a history of Jesus a.s. I was talking about history itself.

As you said yourself: "ok, bring on the proof....I dont want historical fact, I want scientific fact !!! So don't give me stories allright? bring me scientifical evidence."

first, I didn't say to anyone

Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.

which would make someone ask me for scientific evidence.
second, :p
third, I said that the history is too young to remember about such events,so that's u base them on Bible, we do it on Qur'an.
foruth, I don't have to show you scientific evidence, because once you prove Qur'an is the word of God, and without errors on it, than you can prove the event by just saying "Qur'an says so", it's like people nowdays prove mathematical concepts by using Theorem of Pithagora. Theorem of pithagora has been proved by independent facts. so now no one now asks for independent evidence about particular concept, but they just use the pithagora's theorem, to prove the other theorems. so they use pithagora's theorem as dependent evidence.
fifth, again I don't have to show u scientifical evidence, bc we don't claim that Jesus was crucified, so we find nothing, we say nothing. :)

[vpb]

We Christians are not your enemies; we are the best of all friends you ever had, but you reject us, and Jesus said, "Those that reject you reject me."

2:120. Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

2:135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

and Jesus said, "Those that reject you reject me."

if those christians at the time of Muhammed a.s would see you know, that you say to you "you have deivated", and would recite the same biblical verse "Those that reject you reject me."

[Redeemed]

2:120. Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

2:135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."


if those christians at the time of Muhammed a.s would see you know, that you say to you "you have deivated", and would recite the same biblical verse "Those that reject you reject me."

I guess that would be true under those circumstances.

[Phil12123]

I was a Christian at one point, but my perception of Truth changed over 25 years ago. The focus in my worship is not Jesus, Muhammad, or any other than the One God. I admit that I don't understand Allah's Nature, but it is inconceivable for me to imagine His need to become a human and to die on the cross for my sins. You and other Christians emphasize that there MUST be a blood atonement for sins, yet negate the ability and willingness of Allah to forgive sins of His own accord.

Alapiana1 has answered you well, "It wasn't Allah's need to become human and die on the cross for our sins; it was and is our need. It is written, "Without the shedding of Blood there is no remission for sin." God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knoweldge of truth." I would add my "Amen!" to that and also the following elaboration.

I answered a similar thought voiced by Woodrow a while back. Let me copy and paste it here (I don't have the link to that post):

Christians believe God is fully capable of forgiving each of us with just a thought, or of His own accord. But God has revealed, first in the Old Testament, that to be just God must punish every sin. So He instituted the animal sacrifice system and, for example, a lamb without spot or blemish was sacrificed for the sins of the people. There were probably millions of animals sacrificed over the hundreds of years they did that. Why? Because:

Lev. 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."

Now the blood of those animals merely covered sins, as in the Passover, when God saw the blood, He would pass over the sinner and judgment would not fall on him. The sin was paid for by the animal's life, its blood. God's MERCY on the sinner was based on the shedding of blood of the animal in payment for the sinner's sins.

All of that was a type or picture of the Ultimate Sacrifice to come when Jesus, "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) would lay down His life, shedding the "precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:19). But Christ's blood doesn't just cover sins, it washes they away (Rev. 1:5; 1 John 1:7).

That is now the basis of a person's redemption and of God's mercy and grace toward the sinner. That is God's way. For a sinner to say to God, "No, I reject what Christ did for me," is to reject GOD'S way of salvation, which then removes any chance for mercy and forgiveness. God "spared not His own Son but delivered Him up for us all" (Rom. 8:32). In effect, God sent His Son to save the world by His shed blood, showing HIM no mercy as He (Jesus) bore our sins (taking our punishment), so that God could be JUST in terms of punishing all sin, and show US mercy by giving us forgiveness as a free gift. And because it is free to us, we have no excuse. If we reject it, we simply sentence OURSELVES to an eternity paying for our own sins.

[Phil12123]

One other thought. When I said (last paragraph above), "For a sinner to say to God, "No, I reject what Christ did for me," is to reject GOD'S way of salvation, which then removes any chance for mercy and forgiveness," I mean to also say that a sinner can also reject what Christ did for him/her by saying or believing, "No, He never died for my sins, but God took Him to heaven instead."

[Grace Seeker]

One other thought. When I said (last paragraph above), "For a sinner to say to God, "No, I reject what Christ did for me," is to reject GOD'S way of salvation, which then removes any chance for mercy and forgiveness," I mean to also say that a sinner can also reject what Christ did for him/her by saying or believing, "No, He never died for my sins, but God took Him to heaven instead."

I think more on point would be this verse, that has already been referenced once in this thread:

And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

While faith in Christ provides assurance of salvation, I think we should leave it to God to say who is excluded.

[MustafaMc]

Alapiana1 has answered you well, "It wasn't Allah's need to become human and die on the cross for our sins; it was and is our need. It is written, "Without the shedding of Blood there is no remission for sin." God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knoweldge of truth." I would add my "Amen!" to that and also the following elaboration.

I answered a similar thought voiced by Woodrow a while back. Let me copy and paste it here (I don't have the link to that post):

Christians believe God is fully capable of forgiving each of us with just a thought, or of His own accord. But God has revealed, first in the Old Testament, that to be just God must punish every sin. So He instituted the animal sacrifice system and, for example, a lamb without spot or blemish was sacrificed for the sins of the people. There were probably millions of animals sacrificed over the hundreds of years they did that. Why? Because:

Lev. 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."

Now the blood of those animals merely covered sins, as in the Passover, when God saw the blood, He would pass over the sinner and judgment would not fall on him. The sin was paid for by the animal's life, its blood. God's MERCY on the sinner was based on the shedding of blood of the animal in payment for the sinner's sins.

All of that was a type or picture of the Ultimate Sacrifice to come when Jesus, "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) would lay down His life, shedding the "precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:19). But Christ's blood doesn't just cover sins, it washes they away (Rev. 1:5; 1 John 1:7).

That is now the basis of a person's redemption and of God's mercy and grace toward the sinner. That is God's way. For a sinner to say to God, "No, I reject what Christ did for me," is to reject GOD'S way of salvation, which then removes any chance for mercy and forgiveness. God "spared not His own Son but delivered Him up for us all" (Rom. 8:32). In effect, God sent His Son to save the world by His shed blood, showing HIM no mercy as He (Jesus) bore our sins (taking our punishment), so that God could be JUST in terms of punishing all sin, and show US mercy by giving us forgiveness as a free gift. And because it is free to us, we have no excuse. If we reject it, we simply sentence OURSELVES to an eternity paying for our own sins.

You emphasize payment of blood of an innocent (lamb or Jesus) to atone for or expiate for sin rather than that of the actual perpetrator - is this justice?

Please, explain this verse:

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what [this] meaneth, I desire mercy, and not sacrifice, for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

Interesting, how Islam emphasizes the Mercy of Allah and His forgiveness with repentance.

Hadith Qudsi (Holy) #33
A servant [of Allah's] committed a sin and said: O Allah, forgive me my sin. And He (glorified and exalted be He) said: My servant has committed a sin and has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for them. Then he sinned again and said: O Lord, forgive me my sin. And He (glorified and exalted be He) said: My servant has committed a sin and has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for them. Then he sinned again and said: O Lord, forgive me my sin. And He (glorified and exalted be He) said: My servant has committed a sin and has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for sins. Do what you wish, for I have forgiven you.

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:




someone wanted to know about fate of Christians mentioned in Quran that he found contradictory . Don't know if anyone answered..... here is a short , quick reply .


The Jews & Christians who came before Prophet Muhammed (p) & worshipped One God only , God Willing they will go to heaven :D :) :statisfie


after coming of the last Prophet (p) , those who rejected him , some scholars gave fatwa that they will .....................God knows best .

here is a link.



Name Hossam -

Question



My question is about the People of the Book, like Christian and Jews. if they are committed to their religions and they refrain from most of the things which we see the majority of the non-Muslim do.



I mean if they are truly good people and they did they best as regard their religion but they don't convert to Islam, on the day of judgment, what will be their fate? Will they go to Heaven or Hellfire?


Also if they reached a conclusion according to their way of thinking that Christianity or Judaism is good for them and it is the religion that will satisfy their Lord and they truly believe in that, what will be their fate of the Day of Judgment.


Answer




In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.




We don't judge the people’s fate, but we judge the concept itself. To believe in trinity or divinity of Jesus is, in fact, blasphemy and an act of shirk (associating other partners with Allah).



We know from the Qur’an that Allah does not forgive shirk:



“Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.”


(An-Nisa’: 48)

Therefore, Islam is the only religion accepted by Allah and the only message that was protected from any act of distortion. Though some Christians and Jews might be excused for the lack of knowledge, Allah does not accept any other religion from anyone of them who knows of Islam.



You can also read:

Fate of Non-Muslims

Allah Almighty knows best.



http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa...GuestID=3p8wzC

[vpb]

I mean if they are truly good people and they did they best as regard their religion but they don't convert to Islam, on the day of judgment, what will be their fate? Will they go to Heaven or Hellfire?

well, if they recieved the message of Islam, and they had the opportunity to know about it, and didn't accept it, and continued joining partnership to Allah swt, then there is no doubt that they will go to Hell. But as for those who didn't get the message or those before Muhammed saws came, then I dont know about that.

Book 001, Number 0284:

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 657: Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): -- 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them." (4.159) (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol 7)

[Phil12123]

You emphasize payment of blood of an innocent (lamb or Jesus) to atone for or expiate for sin rather than that of the actual perpetrator - is this justice?

Obviously not for the innocent victim, but the sin did not go unpunished, and as long as God accepted payment for the sin by punishing the lamb or His Son, justice was done and mercy to the repentant sinner is justified. And who are WE to question God's arrangement whereby He extends His mercy to the sinner upon such payment for the sin? Apart from that arrangement the sinner has to pay for his own sins. That's not the kind of justice that any sinner wants.

Please, explain this verse:

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what [this] meaneth, I desire mercy, and not sacrifice, for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

Let's look at its context:

Matthew 9:
9. Then as Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, "Follow Me.'' And he arose and followed Him.
10. And so it was, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples.
11. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, "Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?''
12. But when Jesus heard that, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
13. "But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.''

This feast or meal at Matthew's house included "tax collectors and sinners" whom Matthew may have invited so Jesus might win them to Himself. To the Pharisees, who drew the most rigid distinctions and regarded themselves as righteous, Jesus responded that His ministry was needed by sinners, just as a physician's services are needed by the sick. Jesus used the Pharisee's estimate of themselves to answer their objection. Jesus then tells them to go and learn what is meant by the quoted verse from Hosea 6:6, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice." In that context the verse means that a merciful attitude toward the spiritually needy is far better than the mere formality of religious duties (sacrifice) without concern for others. The Pharisees may have kept those formalities with a strictly proper observance but showed little or no mercy toward the spiritually needy, such as tax collectors and sinners. Jesus really takes them to task in Matthew 23, closer to the end of His public ministry. He calls them hypocrites and compares them to white-washed sepulchres or tombs (nice and clean on the outside but full of dead men's bones, full of corruption and evil, on the inside).

What can we conclude from that quoted verse? God looks on the heart. If, for example, you observe all your religious duties like pray five times a day, give to the poor, fast when required, etc., etc., but your heart is not right with God, God looks at you and would tell you, you might as well stop all that ritual and religiosity and repent---get right with Him before you do another thing that is only outward observance. What you and I have a difference about is HOW a person gets right with God. I would say he needs to repent and believe the Gospel that Jesus died for his sins and rose again. To do so would wash all his sins away and make him a brand new person. Then his worship of God would be truly acceptable to Him. You would say, just repent.

By the way, there are other verses that are similar to the one quoted in Matt. 9:13, where God says, for example, obedience is better than sacrifice:

1 Sam. 15:22 Then Samuel said: "Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.
23. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He also has rejected you [Saul] from being king.''

Does this mean God was cancelling the animal sacrifices or saying they were no longer to be performed for the sins of the people? No, because think about it: If they would obey God, they wouldn't have a sin that would NEED a sacrifice to pay for it. But if they do the sacrifices and then just keep on sinning, continue disobeying, they are missing the whole point.

[BanGuLLy]

so wats goin on in this thread :)

[vpb]

so wats goin on in this thread

Chocolate cake. what else?

[Redeemed]

alpiana1, hey any recent problem?? it has been a long time since u haven't brough us some problem to discuss about :p

If you are so established in your faith, I wouldn't be causing you problems. I seems like Christianity is the big problem for Muslims. No other religion appears to be a threat. When I read the Qur'an I see Muhammad blasting away, mostly if not all, the concepts of Christianity. Why didn’t he attack the concepts behind Buddhism, Hinduism and all the other different eastern religions or other religions of the world? That is because the devil fights Christianity, because that is the strongest force against the kingdom of darkness. The devil is the enemy of our souls. When we purpose in our hearts to follow the narrow road, which there are few that find, as Jesus mentions, then, we pose a threat to Satan's realm. In fact, Jesus warns us to beware of false prophets who come to you dressed in sheep’s clothing. That means appear to you to be from God. Satan is a master at it. He knows Christianity and Islam better than us all. I know I am a sinner. I look in the mirror and see the truth about myself. The heart of man is desperately wicked who can know it? I thank God very time I write you that I won’t be judged based on my works whether I have tipped the scale to go to paradise. All those depending on that system will be in outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. :raging: :phew

[NoName55]

why didn’t he attack the concepts behind Buddhism, Hinduism and all the other different eastern religions or other religions of the world?

are you really that dim? Learn the difference between concepts of Tawheed and idolatery and that might stop you from posting stupid questions and statements

[Redeemed]

Actually, Allah has no son see Surah Ikhlas. By definition of Muslim and Christian we will never agree on this issue - at least this side of Judgement Day.

I was a Christian at one point, but my perception of Truth changed over 25 years ago. The focus in my worship is not Jesus, Muhammad, or any other than the One God. I admit that I don't understand Allah's Nature, but it is inconceivable for me to imagine His need to become a human and to die on the cross for my sins. You and other Christians emphasize that there MUST be a blood atonement for sins, yet negate the ability and willingness of Allah to forgive sins of His own accord.

Moreover, it wasn't our idea for the blood atonement. God had prepared that from before the foundations of the world. Of course, I can conceive of God's mercy and forgiveness but not outside of His terms. You remind me of the man who was stranded in the ocean. Someone came by in a boat, and said, “I’ll save you”, but your response is, “That’s OK, but Allah can do it. Then a helicopter comes by as someone shouts, “We can save you if you grasp this rope.” You would respond. “No thanks, I am trusting in Allah’s rescue.” You finally die and stand before Allah only to ask “What happened why you didn’t rescue me?” And Allah will say, I sent you a boat and a plane, but you refused my salvation. :phew

[MustafaMc]

What can we conclude from that quoted verse? God looks on the heart. If, for example, you observe all your religious duties like pray five times a day, give to the poor, fast when required, etc., etc., but your heart is not right with God, God looks at you and would tell you, you might as well stop all that ritual and religiosity and repent---get right with Him before you do another thing that is only outward observance.

I would agree with you that acts of worship with the wrong intention or attitude or from someone that sins and has no regret for his sins most likely will not be accepted. One should worship in truth (proper manner) and in spirit (proper intentions, etc).

What you and I have a difference about is HOW a person gets right with God. I would say he needs to repent and believe the Gospel that Jesus died for his sins and rose again. To do so would wash all his sins away and make him a brand new person. Then his worship of God would be truly acceptable to Him. You would say, just repent.

Yes, one should repent, ask for forgiveness from Allah, continually strive to avoid that sin in the future and also continue to strive to follow the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the worship of the One God.

By the way, there are other verses that are similar to the one quoted in Matt. 9:13, where God says, for example, obedience is better than sacrifice:

1 Sam. 15:22 Then Samuel said: "Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.
23. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He also has rejected you [Saul] from being king.''

Does this mean God was cancelling the animal sacrifices or saying they were no longer to be performed for the sins of the people? No, because think about it: If they would obey God, they wouldn't have a sin that would NEED a sacrifice to pay for it. But if they do the sacrifices and then just keep on sinning, continue disobeying, they are missing the whole point.

Yes, I agree that obedience to Allah in submission (Islam) is better than any sacrifice and it is our intention to submit our wills to that of the One God.

[MustafaMc]

The devil is the enemy of our souls. When we purpose in our hearts to follow the narrow road, which there are few that find, as Jesus mentions, then, we pose a threat to Satan's realm. In fact, Jesus warns us to beware of false prophets who come to you dressed in sheep’s clothing. That means appear to you to be from God. Satan is a master at it.

Yes, just as you hold Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a false prophet, so do we Muslims hold Paul and other NT authors who claim Jesus was God incarnate.

Quran 35:4-7 O Prophet! If they deny you, so were the Rasools denied before you. All affairs shall ultimately be presented before Allah. O mankind! Certainly the promise of Allah is true, therefore let not the life of this world deceive you nor let the chief deceiver (Satan) deceive you about Allah. Surely Shaitan (Satan) is your enemy: so take him as an enemy. He is inviting his adherents towards his way so that they may become companions of the blazing fire. Those who disbelieve shall have a terrible punishment, and those who believe and do good deeds shall have forgiveness and a magnificent reward.

Anyone who tries to mislead Muslims from the Staight Path towards Hell is a mortal enemy indeed.

[Phil12123]

Yes, just as you hold Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a false prophet, so do we Muslims hold Paul and other NT authors who claim Jesus was God incarnate.

Anyone who tries to mislead Muslims from the Straight Path towards Hell is a mortal enemy indeed.

Satan is a master deceiver. He's deceived you into thinking you are ON the Straight Path, when in reality you are on the Broad Way that leads to destruction. What Christians want is for everyone to be on the path to heaven. We know that won't happen because Jesus said:

Matthew 7:
13. "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14. "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."

For you to accept Christ as your Savior and Lord in many parts of the world would be very "difficult"---in a Muslim country it can mean almost certain death. Certainly your family would disown you, feeling you had dishonored and betrayed them. Compare that with the freedom we enjoy in America. Anyone can believe anything, or nothing, they want. But even here, your family might still disown you. Blood isn't always thicker than water. But there again, Jesus warned His would-be followers:

Luke 12:
51. "Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.
52. "For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three.
53. "Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.''

Matthew 10:
35. "For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.'
36. "And 'a man's foes will be those of his own household.'"

The Path to heaven is Jesus. "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

[vpb]

If you are so established in your faith, I wouldn't be causing you problems. I seems like Christianity is the big problem for Muslims. No other religion appears to be a threat. When I read the Qur'an I see Muhammad blasting away, mostly if not all, the concepts of Christianity. Why didn’t he attack the concepts behind Buddhism, Hinduism and all the other different eastern religions or other religions of the world? That is because the devil fights Christianity, because that is the strongest force against the kingdom of darkness. The devil is the enemy of our souls. When we purpose in our hearts to follow the narrow road, which there are few that find, as Jesus mentions, then, we pose a threat to Satan's realm. In fact, Jesus warns us to beware of false prophets who come to you dressed in sheep’s clothing. That means appear to you to be from God. Satan is a master at it. He knows Christianity and Islam better than us all. I know I am a sinner. I look in the mirror and see the truth about myself. The heart of man is desperately wicked who can know it? I thank God very time I write you that I won’t be judged based on my works whether I have tipped the scale to go to paradise. All those depending on that system will be in outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

We feel threat for nothing. Truth has be made clear from error.

[ummzayd]

If you are so established in your faith, I wouldn't be causing you problems. I seems like Christianity is the big problem for Muslims. No other religion appears to be a threat. When I read the Qur'an I see Muhammad blasting away, mostly if not all, the concepts of Christianity. Why didn’t he attack the concepts behind Buddhism, Hinduism and all the other different eastern religions or other religions of the world? That is because the devil fights Christianity, because that is the strongest force against the kingdom of darkness. The devil is the enemy of our souls. When we purpose in our hearts to follow the narrow road, which there are few that find, as Jesus mentions, then, we pose a threat to Satan's realm. In fact, Jesus warns us to beware of false prophets who come to you dressed in sheep’s clothing. That means appear to you to be from God. Satan is a master at it. He knows Christianity and Islam better than us all. I know I am a sinner. I look in the mirror and see the truth about myself. The heart of man is desperately wicked who can know it? I thank God very time I write you that I won’t be judged based on my works whether I have tipped the scale to go to paradise. All those depending on that system will be in outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. :raging: :phew

I see that your posts become extremely insulting towards Islam and the Prophet pbuh sometimes. Is it possible for you to contain your rage and have a better attitude when you come here, to an Islamic board, to debate and discuss?

[ummzayd]

So, then what does one do. Well, some have said that God weighs our deeds and intentions, but this is the same as saying that we can be good enough. That somehow the scales of our actions will tip in our favor. And yet that is contradictory to what has already been expressed regarding our inability to measure up. So, again, we are simply back to depending wholly on God's unmerited mercy toward us, and that is the Christian definition of grace.

So ultimately both Islam and Christianity are grace based salvation experiences. The difference between them is whether or not Christ can play a role in anyone's life other than his own. The Muslim says "No, we are each judged on our own actions." But that gets us back to works again. The Christian says, "Yes, we are judged on the basis of our relationship with God in Christ, because of the cross." But honestly, if the Christian will look at it more deeply, that also gets us back to works. However, this time it is not the person's work, but Christ's work. Christ being not God's partner, but humanities partner.

Is this fair, that Christ's work should count for us? Is this justice? No. But then again, we are not talking about fairness or justice any more, we are talking about mercy. Is this mercy? Indeed it is, toward us, while his justice is satisfied by Christ's offering of his own life in our place. Which again isn't fair, and that is why it is called a sacrifice. It wasn't something Christ had to do, it was something he willed to do in order that by his work (a work we ourselves could not do) he might reconcile humanity to God.

So Islam and Christianity ultimately look toward the same end, that God will be merciful In Islam it is in God's nature to not be just but to be mericul. In Christianity we see both -- God's justice is satisfied on the cross, God's mercy is grant to us. Muslims want the mercy without the justice, and God just doesn't work that way is the Christian response.

I am so glad that at least you can admit that the doctrine of atonement is unjust and unfair.

I think there is one fundemental reason why both camps are in a way talking at cross purposes - according to the Christian understanding (I believe - correct me if I am wrong) God created the first Man (& Woman) as perfect beings. that is why a sacrifice is demanded to atone for the sin they committed. In Islam however, sinning is expected - because God created humankind with free will, and furthermore tests us with both trials and blessings.

I see that it has been put forward here that according to God's justice, sin must be punished, that is one reason why it is impossible for us humans to get into heaven without the blood of Christ. When we talk of God's justice, it is true to say that His judgement is actually weighed heavily in favour of The Accused. You may call it against God's justice that all that is required to forgive our sins is that we ask Him for that with a sincere heart. and on the day of judgement He will cleanse us and make us pure and perfect, and enter us into paradise, just because we ask Him with sincerity for that. Just as Grace Seeker says above, it is certainly NOT JUST that an innocent is slaughtered in order to grant the guilty paradise.

Therefore you may conclude that 'injustice' applies in both cases.

Personally I prefer the alledged 'injustice' of forgiving the sins of those who worship God and ask His forgiveness for their sins, above the clear injustice of slaughter of an innocent and washing the sins of the guilty with his blood.

peace

(I hope I was able to convey my meaning, I am really tired and my two youngest are literally climbing all over me).

[snakelegs]

around and around we go insult after insult, yet no one (admin)seems to be noticing that or the fact that relentless preaching/promotion of something other than Islam is going on.

yes, i've wondered about that also.

[Redeemed]

No wonder this guy is a former Muslim... where did he get his knowledge from? Anti-Islamic websites? The Prophet knew fully well that he was granted Paradise.

Looks like you friend never had much knowledge to begin with.


We are saved because of our own actions and the Mercy of God. It is called justice. Don't expect an evil sinning Muslim to enter paradise without being punished. That is not just.

No wonder your religion has so little rules that you need to follow. No one would follow them even if they did exist because they already think they are saved.

I don't know that I am covered. That is why I continue to do good deeds and strive in the way of Allah, because I need it. If I knew I was already guaranteed paradise I would not do half the good deeds I do now.

By the way, it is very arrogant of you to think you are guaranteed Paradise- you are not deed yet. You could die an atheist for all you know.




Yeh, a solid foundation based on a book whose authenticity is disputed. :rollseyes



Yeh, same goes to Christianity, we believe in the more or less the same prophets, duh.



To the Muslim, God is well above all that you attribute to Him and your sin of attributing a Son to Him is so great that it even the mountains would crumble upon being exposed it, had God not protected them that.

To the Muslim, we know that God is Just and so would not punish an innocent with the sins of others, let alone allow Himself to be punished at the hands of His creation!! What blasphemy! We are all held accountable for our own deeds.

We know that our fate is in our own hands, and by doing good deeds ourselves and hoping for the Mercy of Allah we will be saved.

Paradise is for those who do good, not for lip service.

You have said some things I agree with, but for the most part, I think you have me wrong. It is really true that we have very few rules, basically just two: Love God with all your heart soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself. It is simple, but when you try to live those two rules or commands, you will see that it is not easy. It is down right impossible for me (I think for all people), but with God all things are possible. I have looked at myself in the mirror after asking God to show me what he sees. I saw the man in the mirror: I am a spiritual mess. I used to think I was OK, but after asking God to reveal my heart, I could see how it is very wicked. In spite of all the good works I do, but I am trusting God to complete the work He started in me. I think very one should ask God, “How am I measuring up at this point?” or “How am I doing?” He will answer that prayer. He did for me, and when i saw how far I was from measuring up to how good I needed to be to be heaven bound, I gave up and surrendered my life to Him. I let go and let God finish what He started. If He doesn’t do it, my good works are just a highway to hell with all the other roads paved with good intentions that lead to the same place. You think I am arrogant, but I am not; I am boastful. My boast is in the Lord that made heaven and earth not myself.
Peace
:)

[Redeemed]

All of my posts were moved. I guess I am the chief at being offensive to the Muslim community. All Christians want to see Muslims converted to Christianity. I guess I need to change something about my approach, because it doesn't seem to be very effective if very time I write something, it is moved so other Muslims won't see it. Lord, help me to have wisdom. All Muslims have said some things I agree with, but for the most part, I think you have me wrong. It is really true that we Christians have very few rules, basically just two: Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself. It is simple, but when you try to live those two rules or commands, you will see that it is not easy. It is down right impossible for me - I think for all people, but with God all things are possible. I have looked at myself in the mirror after asking God to show me what he sees. I saw the man in the mirror: I am a spiritual mess. I used to think I was OK, but after asking God to reveal my heart, I could see how it is very wicked in spite of all the good works I do, but I am trusting God to complete the work He started in me. I think everyone should ask God, “How am I measuring up at this point?” or “How am I doing?” He will answer that prayer. He did for me, and when I saw how far I was from measuring up to how good I needed to be to be heaven bound, I gave up and surrendered my life to Him. I let go and let God finish what He started in me. If He doesn’t do it, my good works are just a highway to hell with all the other roads paved with good intentions that lead to the same place. You may think I am arrogant, but I am not; I am boastful. My boast is in the Lord who made heaven and earth not in me. I am just an unprofitable servant trying to serve God by faith with my limited knowledge. I can identify with Woodrow about posting. I am tired of it. I think I have sown seed let someone else water it, and I'll praise God for the increase, cuz only He can win a heart to Himself. I’ll still peek on forum and comment once in a while, but if God wills, I will eventually stop posting as Woodrow had mentioned.
Peace

[Redeemed]

The reverse is also true, although I'm not here to promote any message.

Brother, as Christians, aren't we suppose to promote the gospel? "Woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel":-[

[Woodrow]

Brother, as Christians, aren't we suppose to promote the gospel? "Woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel":-[

I can not respond for Grace keeper, but as a Mod on an Islamic forum I will state that no matter were you are it is common decency to abide by the rules.

Remember that your words have been heard by those you who you are trying to reach and we sincerely believe those are words that will send us to hellfire if we follow them. The words you find so beautiful we see as being extremely sinful and evil. We do understand that you do not see them that way. But, I doubt if you can comprehend just how blasphemous we see them as being.

Do you think it is supporting Christianity, by saying the very things that have convinced us that Christianity is deep in error. Your words are serving to reinforce our belief that some Christians are driven to drag us into Evil.