Report: Fatah men executed in front of wives and children

[rav]

How could they execute them like that? Hamas are animals. I pray that Islam does not allow such violence. How could they call themselves a "religious" group dedicated to Islam and break Islamic rules of decency so badly? I cannot imagine Islam actually supports such killing.

____


Fifteen Palestinians were killed and 80 were wounded as Hamas fighters overran one of Fatah's most important security installations in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, and witnesses said the victors dragged vanquished gunmen from the building and shot them to death gangland-style in the street in front of their families.

The capture of the Preventive Security headquarters was a major step forward in Hamas's attempts to complete its takeover of all of Gaza. Hamas followed up that victory by demanding Fatah surrender another key security installation.

Hamas also overran the southern city of Rafah, the second of Gaza's four main towns to fall into the Islamic group's hands.

Later Thursday, an explosion rocked Gaza City, and smoke was seen rising from a security post. Fatah security officials said forces positioned at the post had redeployed elsewhere and blown it up as they left, rather than let Hamas take it over.

Earlier, Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, for the first time in five days of fierce fighting, ordered his elite presidential guard to strike back. But his forces were crumbling fast under the onslaught by the better-armed and better-disciplined Islamic fighters.

A Hamas military victory in Gaza would split Palestinian territory into two, with the Islamic extremists controlling the coastal strip and Fatah ruling the West Bank. Israel was watching the carnage closely, concerned the clashes might spawn attacks on the southern border.

Defense Minister Amir Peretz told a weekly meeting of security officials that Israel would not allow the violence to spread into attacks on southern Israel, meeting participants said.

The battle for the Preventive Security complex brought the day's death toll to 25 by mid-afternoon, hospital and security officials said. About 90 people, most of them gunmen but including children and other civilians, have been killed since a spike in violence Sunday sent Gaza into civil war.

Fatah said Hamas shot to death seven of its fighters outside the Preventive Security building. A doctor at Shifa Hospital, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal, said he examined two bodies that had been shot in the head at close range.

A witness, who identified himself only as Amjad, said men were killed before their wives and children.

"They are executing them one by one," Amjad said in a telephone interview, declining to give his full name for fear of reprisals. "They are carrying one of them on their shoulders, putting him on a sand dune, turning him around and shooting."

As Hamas took this major battle spoil, the Palestine Liberation Organization's top body recommended that Abbas declare a state of emergency and dismantle Fatah's governing coalition with Hamas. Abbas said he would review the recommendations and make decision within hours, said an aide, Nabil Amr.

After the rout at the Preventive Security complex, some of the Hamas fighters kneeled down outside, touching their foreheads to the ground in prayer. Others led Fatah gunmen out of the building, some shirtless or in their underwear, holding their arms in the air. Several of the Fatah men flinched as the crack of gunfire split the air.

www.jpost.com

[Amadeus85]

And now just think that lately Norway prime minister invited Hamas leader to his country.

[MTAFFI]

this could probably be merged with the Gaza war thread, especially since there are people in that thread that believe Hamas is a great Islamic government, surely they wouldnt back these unislamic acts, but it would be interesting to see

[islamirama]

Hamas was elected gov't by the people for the people. It is the west that has refused to recognized them. And it is US that is supporting and funding Fatah and his men against a legtimately elected gov't to over throw it. Islamic or not, this is politics and governship. I'm sure US would do the same if the black panthers or KKK or the national guard takes over half the country and doesn't listen to the government. It's so easy for you to label them terrorists and call them animals ignorantly and not see the whole picture and yet be perfectly ok with gov't doing such a thing in your countries for anyone who who tries to over throw the gov't. By taking over full security of the area and taking care of those loyalists to an old regime with treasonous attempts, hamas will inshallah make it safer for everyone there. There won't be any fightings between the two group as there will be only one group and one gov't, a legtimate gov't elected by the people despite what the westerners label them.

Hamas, an Islamic organisation, rose to prominence in Gaza during two Palestinian uprisings, and refuses to recognise or negotiate with Israel.

Fatah, a secular political grouping headed by Mr Abbas, ran the Palestinian Authority before 2006 and officially recognises the Jewish state.

A Hamas TV station showed pictures of militants tramping triumphantly through the ransacked HQ, reviled by Hamas as a symbol of Fatah's violent offensives against the Islamic group during the 1990s.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6751079.stm

Hamas helped with the uprisings after the zionists oppression was too unbearable for the palestinians. Hamas is working for the palestinians and refuses to recognize the occupiers who continously kill palestiniansa nd oppress them. Then you have fatah the secular extremists who supporsts israel shamelessly when they kill his people. He is a sell out who doesn't care about his people.

Hey rav you forgot to include this part in your news!

Meanwhile, there were also reports that at least four young Palestinians were killed by an explosion in Rafah.


However, Israel denied its forces had fired in the area.

and as always, the two face zionists deny everything they do and play dumb if caught red handed.

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[Keltoi]

I thought that after four years of these sick stories coming out of that region I would be apathetic by now, but it still disturbs me, the lengths some will go to instill fear. I'm sure neither side has the moral high ground here, and that is what makes it even more disturbing. Just mindless carnage, like in other places I could name.

[Joe98]

I thought that after four years of these sick stories coming out of that region I would be apathetic by now,

I'm apathetic :skeleton:

[Salaam]

The news artical can't be trusted, until there is proper evidence, you should not believe in it..........

[rav]

The news artical can't be trusted, until there is proper evidence, you should not believe in it..........

The witnesses like doctors, family members, neighbors, and others are indeed proper evidence. Does anyone not find it hypocritical that some people here have the guts to actually suggest that every claim made by one Palestinian and some times no Palestinian even claims it… are proper evidence to attack Israel, yet when Hamas is charged with a crime, you need a video tape and confession to have “proper evidence” and even then it may not be enough. What a sorry case!

[Sami Zaatari]

The witnesses like doctors, family members, neighbors, and others are indeed proper evidence. Does anyone not find it hypocritical that some people here have the guts to actually suggest that every claim made by one Palestinian and some times no Palestinian even claims it… are proper evidence to attack Israel, yet when Hamas is charged with a crime, you need a video tape and confession to have “proper evidence” and even then it may not be enough. What a sorry case!

the article you quote has this guy named amjad speaking of such acts, wheres the doctorS and familly members? or is amjad 20 ppl you refer to? hamas denied doing such things saying the dead were only killed by gunbattles, hence plz get a better source of info othr than 'amjad' by the phone!

[Sami Zaatari]

this could probably be merged with the Gaza war thread, especially since there are people in that thread that believe Hamas is a great Islamic government, surely they wouldnt back these unislamic acts, but it would be interesting to see

hamas is great, :) and they sure as heck still have the majority support in the muslim world, not fatah. :)

[rav]

I defend who in my belief will bring peace and the least bloodshed.

Here is some reading material Sami:

Hamas leaders said they were planning to hold Friday prayers inside the compound after "liberating" it from Abbas's loyalists. "With God's will, we will all pray in the Saraya," declared Nizar Rayan, a prominent Hamas official. "We call on Abbas's army of prostitutes to surrender or else they will be executed in public."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

They basically said in public they will execute people. What makes you believe they have not already. Half of Palestinian claims which your rely on are based on witness testimony, and this case is no different.

Fatah officials said seven of their fighters were shot dead in the street outside Preventive Security building. A witness, Jihad Abu Ayad, said the men were being killed before their wives and children.

"They are executing them one by one," Abu Ayad said. "They are carrying one of them on their shoulders, putting him on a sand dune, turning him around and shooting."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/870763.html

Believe what you wish Sami. I have just observed that your need for evidence depends on who is accused of the crime.

[Sami Zaatari]

well its good your not a zionist, i even edited it out before you said you arent.

[rav]

Zionism is actually not Judaism at all, in many cases it is the opposite. However, where most Orthodox Jews stand is that, the sin was commited as in the state was formed while we are still in the redemprion process. To give you an anology, if you asked a women if she were to let her baby out one day before it was suppose to, and it may have effects would she? No she would not... That is the case here. We are still in the pregnancy (exile) and we cannot be let out early although the exile might be painful i.e. Holocaust, peresecution from all religion... we have lessons to learn, and the job of elevating our souls. As I was saying, the sin was commited, so now the matter is how many lives can we save? Sami, do you honestly think in my point of view Hamas in power will lead to less bloodshed? Maybe you know things I do not know about them.

One of the oaths is "that Israel shall not go up [all together as if surrounded] by a wall" and if they do the redemption and Moshiach will come to save us, but it will take longer and be more painful.

The Gemara in Kesubos 111a says: if we violate this oath then The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Israel, 'If you will keep the adjuration, well and good; but if not, I will permit your flesh [to be a prey] like [that of] the gazelles and the hinds of the field'. Which people like the Satmar Rebbe say why the Holocaust happend... i.e. G-d did not use his power to stop Hitler from using his free will to hate and kill Jews as he protected us in the past.

So now we wait for Moshiach longer because Zionists... but of course, he will come and even if you do not believe it Sami, we will live in peace one day.

[ACC]

I think everyone must remember that a muslim cant commit a crime. In order for a muslim to be remotely guilty, you need millions of witnesses, video tape from hundreds of angles and a declaration from God (serious sarcasm).

[north_malaysian]

Question: Why until now, Palestinians failed to have an independent country?
Answer: They're fighting each others.


Conclusion: I think most Malaysians are so sick to see Palestinian fighting each others, making us going to give our donations elsewhere.. Why giving money to failures... so sad.

[snakelegs]

I think everyone must remember that a muslim cant commit a crime. In order for a muslim to be remotely guilty, you need millions of witnesses, video tape from hundreds of angles and a declaration from God (serious sarcasm).

i understand why you get that impression, but it is not that simple. muslims will most certainly criticize other muslims - and themselves. for example, it is very common to hear muslims blaming themselves for the sorry state muslims are in. few have any praise for their leaders.

[Cognescenti]

[img]story.hamasflag.afp.gi.jpg[/img]

Hamas gunmen deploy near Fatah's security services base in Gaza City.

That is, of course, what CNN would have you believe. If you look closely you can just see a partly covered Star of David shoulder patch on the guy on the extreme left with the gray shirt.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...za/index.html#

[Chiteng]

I thought Muslims cannot kill Muslims. And yet they do.

Isnt that sinning?

[guyabano]

Question: Why until now, Palestinians failed to have an independent country?
Answer: They're fighting each others.


Conclusion: I think most Malaysians are so sick to see Palestinian fighting each others, making us going to give our donations elsewhere.. Why giving money to failures... so sad.

It was my thought too ! When Palestinians don't fight against Israelis and they have nobody else to annoy, they fight themselves, then drawn themselves in self-pityness !

How shameful ! :cry:

[Hashim_507]

Well if this story is true; its haram to excute muslim captives or any captive.

[Muezzin]

My posts get deleted and this guy's stay? Why?

The report function is there for a reason, matey. Please use it.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

The news artical can't be trusted, until there is proper evidence, you should not believe in it..........

agreed

jpost.com? wats that :S

[ACC]

The report function is there for a reason, matey. Please use it.

Touche.

[barney]

Islam is very very clear on killing another muslim. It's a straight trip to the hellfire. There are some exceptions.

Hamas sees anyone who dosn't subscribe to their wahabbi ideals as Apostates.

It's like AlQuada in the land of the two rivers. The police, army and anyone who voted in the elections are apostates.

In the English Civil War, we were happy to kill each other because each side had Gods approval for it.

Fatah and Hamas belives exactly the same thing.

regards

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

I read somewhere (I forget where), that the men who were executed were collaborators.

Since Hamas captured Fatah Preventative Security HQ, and got their hands on classified and ****ing documents, they are now in the process of tracking down all collaborators in Gaza...

[Muezzin]

Touche.

Enguarde!

Not really.

Anyway, guys, I've taken the opportunity to clean up the thread a bit. Certain posts have been removed altogether because they are simply unneccessary Arab-bashing - that sort of thing is as unjustified, unfair and insulting as wanton Israeli-bashing, and will be treated as such. The replies to those deleted posts have also been removed.

Everyone, please, please, please report offensive posts.

[islamirama]

Islam is very very clear on killing another muslim. It's a straight trip to the hellfire. There are some exceptions.

Hamas sees anyone who dosn't subscribe to their wahabbi ideals as Apostates.

It's like AlQuada in the land of the two rivers. The police, army and anyone who voted in the elections are apostates.

In the English Civil War, we were happy to kill each other because each side had Gods approval for it.

Fatah and Hamas belives exactly the same thing.

regards

why do guys keep putting your foot in your mouth...

Hamas is in palestine, "******" is in saudi, two different countries greatly apart.

There is no qaeda there, just a resistance group that the people ELECTED to power but the west failed to recognized and labed them terrorists since they choose to fight rather then live in occupation and oppression.

Fatah is a secular group who kisses zionists behind. That's what he was doing last year when hamas leader was at the hajj. Only one who thinks they are fighting with "God's approval" on both sides is you.

Fatah, abbas and their loyalists are dogs of the west who are backed by and funded by the west cause they support zionists massacres of their people. Hamas is a religtimate gov't elected by the people and have every right to take over all of palestine to ensure peace and stop further blood shed as well as stop this traitors for their treasonous acts. But you wouldn't care about any of that would you know.

[rav]

Fatah, abbas and their loyalists are dogs of the west who are backed by and funded by the west cause they support zionists massacres of their people. Hamas is a religtimate gov't elected by the people and have every right to take over all of palestine to ensure peace and stop further blood shed as well as stop this traitors for their treasonous acts. But you wouldn't care about any of that would you know.

First, they have no right to take over Palestine by war and bloodshed to stop bloodshed. Second, Hamas has been on going from country to country asking for western aid to be reinstated. Hamas wants western aid just as much, however, they will not meet wester demands for that aid. If you have not noticed, Hamas was begging for the western aid to begin, which is why they formed the unit govt, because they could not pay their employees. All palestinians recieve western aid. You have no idea how much western aid goes into Palestine. In return you do little to appreciate it.

[islamirama]

First, they have no right to take over Palestine by war and bloodshed to stop bloodshed. Second, Hamas has been on going from country to country asking for western aid to be reinstated. Hamas wants western aid just as much, however, they will not meet wester demands for that aid. If you have not noticed, Hamas was begging for the western aid to begin, which is why they formed the unit govt, because they could not pay their employees. All palestinians recieve western aid. You have no idea how much western aid goes into Palestine. In return you do little to appreciate it.

who do you think put Palestine in it's current situation? How much aid did they needed before israel was imposed on them? They still wouldn't need aid if there was no wall, no check points and no hinderance to development of their economy by the zionists nor if the zionists let go of the palestinian money they are withholding.

As for the west, It supports zionist massacres and genocide of the Palestinians. Gives more aid to zionists than combined GDP of 3 arab states. What Palestinians do get is bread crumbs compared to zionists. Hamas is going out to meet europeans for aid for the sake of his people not cuase they like to go out and ask for aid. I"ll appreciate west when they recognzied elections of the palestinians and hamas rather then be hypocrites, when they force zionists back to the original land they were given and force them to comply to 76+ Un resolutions they fail to comply by and free 1000s of kids and women from zionist jails, when they stop supporting zionist aggression against the people whose land they occupy, when they give palestine as much aid as they give zionists, and when they grow a backbone and stand against zionists for their atrocities and war crimes.

[Bittersteel]

I am not going to take sides,just I don't want to in Israel-Arab wars.Let them do what they want do.this should have been solved before.

Hamas are animals. I pray that Islam does not allow such violence.

well execution is reserved for enemies who are really serious threats but this is wrong and insane,if they are just killing party activists(I haven't read the article,I don't want to).

[barney]

I'm assuming that the "******" was "Wahabbi".

And that you dont beleive that Wahabbi ideals have anything to do with Hamas?

:) Oookay.

They were labelled as terrorists long before they were elected. Basically because they were Blowing up Little Girls long before they were elected. :(

To the eternal shame of the palastinian people, they elected them.
And now what? Why wont Israel feed you? Perhaps if we bomb Israeli civvys a little bit more then they'll send aid?

Well instead of taking dirty kaffir money...get some money off the muslim nations. LOL. Right! The only payments they make are to the familys of Jew-murderers.

[islamirama]

I'm assuming that the "******" was "Wahabbi".

And that you dont beleive that Wahabbi ideals have anything to do with Hamas?

:) Oookay.

They were labelled as terrorists long before they were elected. Basically because they were Blowing up Little Girls long before they were elected. :(

To the eternal shame of the palastinian people, they elected them.
And now what? Why wont Israel feed you? Perhaps if we bomb Israeli civvys a little bit more then they'll send aid?

Well instead of taking dirty kaffir money...get some money off the muslim nations. LOL. Right! The only payments they make are to the familys of Jew-murderers.

yes that was wahhabbi, not sure why system did that.

they were labeled terroriss for rising up againt oppresion of the zionists. Read about the intifada, people arose up when oppression was too much for them. Only one killing little girls, and even infants is the zionists soldiers.

It is eternal shame that the west sits on it its a$$ letting the zionists massacred a nation of people whose land they occupy. They don't need israeli money, just they keep their hands of palestinian money and go back to the original land given to them at the very least. It seems anyone that resists any occupation and oppression of them and fight for their righ to freedom is labeled terrorist these days by the west. Palestinians are terrorist for fighting for their land, iraqis for fighting western occupation, kashmiris for fighting indian occupation, afghans for fighting western occupation. Well i guess when you have power to occupy other lands and control the media nd force your view on the world, you can label anyone anything you want.


Germany has been paying millions to the jews for their --- holocaust for 50years now. What the zionists and west has done to palestine and its people is no different. It's only right that the --- pay to the palestinians for their suffering and also grow the balls to stop the zionist terrorists from war crimes, massacres and genocide of the palestinians.

[Bittersteel]

And that you dont believe that Wahabbi ideals have anything to do with Hamas?

why don't you kindly enlighten us all?we would be very happy.
I guess you take ******sm as some sort of an antisemitic ideology,right?
Like a British scholar said,people talk about ******sm and yet they don't know ******sm really is.

[Cognescenti]

Enguarde!

Not really.

Anyway, guys, I've taken the opportunity to clean up the thread a bit. Certain posts have been removed altogether because they are simply unneccessary Arab-bashing - that sort of thing is as unjustified, unfair and insulting as wanton Israeli-bashing, and will be treated as such. The replies to those deleted posts have also been removed.

Everyone, please, please, please report offensive posts.

With all due respect, sir, merely asking why all untoward events in Region X seem only to have external causes does not seem to be "bashing" of residents of Region X. It may sting a bit, but only because it has an empirical underpinning.

Re. the report button. I realize that is what we are "supposed" to do (God knows it has been used on me more than a few times:) ) and I realize the "cleanups on aisle 12" must become tiresome after a bit.....but doing the reporting deed just seems so unmanly. :thumbs_up

[Muezzin]

With all due respect, sir, merely asking why all untoward events in Region X seem only to have external causes does not seem to be "bashing" of residents of Region X. It may sting a bit, but only because it has an empirical underpinning.

No different from the 'sting' attached to 'bashing' other nations in a sarcastic manner, regardless of empirical underpinnings, since such behaviour leads to hostile argumentation rather than legitimate discussion.

Re. the report button. I realize that is what we are "supposed" to do (God knows it has been used on me more than a few times:) ) and I realize the "cleanups on aisle 12" must become tiresome after a bit.....but doing the reporting deed just seems so unmanly. :thumbs_up

Whining that there's never a cop around when you need one without ever dialling 911 however dire the situation isn't the height of masculinity either.

Now, maybe we can get back to discussing the topic at hand, without calling for violence or mocking other nations.

[rav]

Germany has been paying millions to the jews for their alleged holocaust for 50years now.

How am I suppose to take anything you write with any seriousness, after you have stated that the Holocaust is "alleged"? Have you studied anything about the Holocaust, or is that more mouthfed (excuse my language) "BS" that you read and blindly believe?

I"ll appreciate west when they recognzied elections of the palestinians and hamas rather then be hypocrites

The west does recongnize Hamas. That is not the problem. What you are having trouble understanding is that after a democratic election, the people who elected the winners now must live with the implications a group like Hamas bring in regards to foreign policy.

Hamas is going out to meet europeans for aid for the sake of his people not cuase they like to go out and ask for aid.

It is irrelevant why they are asking for aid. The fact is that you accuse Fatah of being traitors because they get aid from the west, but in reality Hamas has and wishes to get that same aid.

[north_malaysian]

Muslims should forget about Palestine. Because now we have Republic of Gaza and Republic of West Bank. WHAT A SHAME!!!!:raging:

[Trumble]

Muslims should forget about Palestine. Because now we have Republic of Gaza and Republic of West Bank. WHAT A SHAME!!!!:raging:

Indeed. I don't blame Hamas any more than Fatah (Hamas just happened to 'win' in Gaza, although it apparently didn't occur to the gun-toting idiots concerned that that would result in them 'losing' in the West Bank), but from the point of view of Palestine and the Palestinian people the internal conflict has been a complete disaster.

Ridiculous fantasies about regaining 'land', and driving the 'evil Zionists' into the sea aside, a viable and indeed prosperous two-state (that's Palestine and Israel) solution was possible previously. A viable state on the West Bank might still be, if the Israelis have the political will and courage to dismantle the 'settlements' there, but Gaza is not viable on its own. Waving guns and flags doesn't feed and cloth anybody.

[Makky]

How could they execute them like that? Hamas are animals. I pray that Islam does not allow such violence. How could they call themselves a "religious" group dedicated to Islam and break Islamic rules of decency so badly? I cannot imagine Islam actually supports such killing.

Aminals are those --- who kill civilians by helicopters and missiles , those who kill every year hundreds of innocents in the west bank and Ghaza as well
and those few traitor agents from Fatah ( not all Fatah are like that) whom support and guide zionists

[Zman]

Muslims should forget about Palestine. Because now we have Republic of Gaza and Republic of West Bank. WHAT A SHAME!!!!:raging:

:sl:

May be with hindsight, people will consider this "Republic of Gaza," a the seed that was planted which shall yield a united Palestine, down the road.

People originally thought that when Arafat decided to bring back all his PLO, and establish them in Gaza & the West Bank, that they'd be surrounded and cut-off from the outside world. That The Palestinians wouldn't be able to accomplish anything.

Now, the concentration of a Palestinian government/administrration in one geographical area has produced this current situation. That there is a real resistance/liberation movement that is currently carrying & protecting the Palestinian cause.

To borrow Cheney's quote (with a slight alteration): "Fatah is in it's last throes!"

And, soon Insha Allah, the Hamas government will be much more established in the West Bank, also. Give this flower the time to bloom.

Now, Islam is ruling, not being subordinate & being ruled by someone else...

[Cognescenti]

:sl:

May be with hindsight, people will consider this "Republic of Gaza," a the seed that was planted which shall yield a united Palestine, down the road.

People originally thought that when Arafat decided to bring back all his PLO, and establish them in Gaza & the West Bank, that they'd be surrounded and cut-off from the outside world. That The Palestinians wouldn't be able to accomplish anything.

Now, the concentration of a Palestinian government/administrration in one geographical area has produced this current situation. That there is a real resistance/liberation movement that is currently carrying & protecting the Palestinian cause.

To borrow Cheney's quote (with a slight alteration): "Fatah is in it's last throes!"

And, soon Insha Allah, the Hamas government will be much more established in the West Bank, also. Give this flower the time to bloom.

Now, Islam is ruling, not being subordinate & being ruled by someone else...

The only way the PA had a chance was with outside support. Do you think they are going to get any from the US or EU now?

I hope the residents of Gaza enjoy their Islamic paradise. It will take no more than a month before the reality begins to set in. What is going to sustain them economically? Has anyone here ever bought a product exported from Gaza? What are they all going to do...sell life insurance to each other?

You see this as some kind of victory on the way to kicking the Jews out of Palestine. My guess is you are in the minority in that opinion. :)

It is a disaster for the Palestinians.

[Amadeus85]

Muslims should forget about Palestine. Because now we have Republic of Gaza and Republic of West Bank. WHAT A SHAME!!!!:raging:

There is rather Hamasstan and Fatahland :rollseyes

[Zman]

The only way the PA had a chance was with outside support. Do you think they are going to get any from the US or EU now?

The economic sanctions and government boycott was initiated after the Palestinian people elected Hamas in a legal and democratic elections, as was attested to by the West.

Do you think that mass starvation, the destruction of an economy, and collective punishment was appropriate?

Do you think that the continuation of the above policy is a Just act towards over a million Palestinian civilians in Gaza, as pay back for what Hamas has done?

I hope the residents of Gaza enjoy their Islamic paradise.

Thanks to the West's policy.

If we had embraced Hamas, like we did with the IRA, and chose dialogue and moderation rather than confrontation and a big stick, Hamas would never had resorted to such actions.

If we didn't arm Fatah with the intention of combatting Hamas and approving and aiding in his coup attempt against Hamas, this mess would never have occurred.

It will take no more than a month before the reality begins to set in.

The Palestinians have been living this reality for decades.

What is going to sustain them economically?

The $100 million in taxes that is rghtly theirs, and we froze.

The donations in the millions, their Arab & Muslims brothers sent and were confiscated at the border by Egypt, Jordan, and the refusal of the Banks to process any transactions, after the U.S. illegally threatened them.

Has anyone here ever bought a product exported from Gaza?

No. Thanks to Israeli checkpoints, they would let the trucks loaded with goods wait for hours, and only allowing them passage after their contents have rotted.

What are they all going to do...sell life insurance to each other?

Ask the Western & Arab governments. They drew first blood...

You see this as some kind of victory on the way to kicking the Jews out of Palestine.

I never said that. And, since I never said that, then it's not official. And it's on you for issuing lies and assassinating my character. But this isn't the first time you resorted to dirty tactics.

My guess is you are in the minority in that opinion. :)

I didn't know that we had a soothsayer, here...

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

In case you guys forget,Islam allow for beheading in the worst of people.

Why dont we find out what did the man do?

was he a traitor?
Did he sell off his own family and people for his own safety?
Did he send other to die while he kept safe?

There are many laws in Islam,and punishment is alwyas there.

Too many foolish people,talk about love wihout understanding that love too has limitation and cannot use the word love for atrocious actions.

Too many muslim forget the laws of Islam and what is lawful for secular laws.

Such moderate muslims are much loved by the west.
We love,you love,i love..
So lay down your arm,adn when you are killed and fight back,they condemn you.

Such is the eakness in the ummah,they ascribe to toehr religon desire for what Islam is.

[Zulkiflim]

Question: Why until now, Palestinians failed to have an independent country?
Answer: They're fighting each others.


Conclusion: I think most Malaysians are so sick to see Palestinian fighting each others, making us going to give our donations elsewhere.. Why giving money to failures... so sad.

Salaam,

they are fighting idealogy.

fatah is western supported,and are moderate muslim,much loved by the west.

Hamas is democratically elected and hated by the west.

thus your choice,is it a case of two Islam,or is it the case of one who have sold himself for prosperity and power and wealth while enslaving his entire nation.

Or another that fight for soveriengity for their own sake on their own terms.

And may i ask how much does Malaysia contribute to the Palestine people?
Curious leh

[Trumble]

The economic sanctions and government boycott was initiated after the Palestinian people elected Hamas in a legal and democratic elections, as was attested to by the West.

And would have ended instantly had Hamas acknowledged the State of Israel's right to exist as opposed to retaining a commitment to destroy it.

[Cognescenti]

[QUOTE=Zman;768474]
The economic sanctions and government boycott was initiated after the Palestinian people elected Hamas in a legal and democratic elections, as was attested to by the West.

Do you think that mass starvation, the destruction of an economy, and collective punishment was appropriate?

Do you think that the continuation of the above policy is a Just act towards over a million Palestinian civilians in Gaza, as pay back for what Hamas has done?

The Pals had a right to vote for Hamas. Nobody disputes that. It's just that, in retrospect, they have made an historic error. One of the interesting things about democracy is that elections have consequences. It is funny that way. They voted for a "political party" that calls for the destruction of Israel in their charter. Fine..let them destroy Israel with their own money. This little exercise in civil war merely compounds the mistake.

Thanks to the West's policy.

If we had embraced Hamas, like we did with the IRA, and chose dialogue and moderation rather than confrontation and a big stick, Hamas would never had resorted to such actions.

Yeah..that's it. The poor dears were forced into it by the wascally West. It is the Beslan school massacre argument all over again..."the Russians made us do it."

If we didn't arm Fatah with the intention of combatting Hamas and approving and aiding in his coup attempt against Hamas, this mess would never have occurred.

Wait a minute. Isn't Abbas still the PM under the Constitution? Did Hamas win an actual majority of seats, or just a plurality? In that case there is a coup but in the reverse sense.

The $100 million in taxes that is rghtly theirs, and we froze.

Wait..surely you mean Israel? So how did we freeze them? Do you live in Israel part time too? I am confused.

I never said that. And, since I never said that, then it's not official. And it's on you for issuing lies and assassinating my character. But this isn't the first time you resorted to dirty tactics.

What does this mean then? ...."May be with hindsight, people will consider this "Republic of Gaza," a the seed that was planted which shall yield a united Palestine, down the road."

Your tone and inference certainly implies it. If you truly desire a Palestinian state living side by side in peace with Israel then I will be happy to apologize because that is exactly what I favor.

[Zman]

You see this as some kind of victory on the way to kicking the Jews out of Palestine.

This is what you said, exactly, not what I said verbatim!

What does this mean then? ...."May be with hindsight, people will consider this "Republic of Gaza," a the seed that was planted which shall yield a united Palestine, down the road.

What does this mean then? You should have asked for clarification, first.

A "United Palestine," means a unified Gaza & West Bank, with corridors that link them together, and aren't controlled by Israel.

If they remain without proper and sovereign linkage, then there will never be a viable Palestinian State.

No where have I ever mentioned that the Jews should be "kicked out of Plaestine." Nor will I ever favor that.

A unified Palestinian State should be able to survive on its own, have a complete military, its economy should not be under Israeli control, it's territorial mass (air, land, sea) should not be under Israeli control, etc...

Your tone and inference certainly implies it.

Tone?

If I didn't say it exactly, then don't interpret it.

If you truly desire a Palestinian state living side by side in peace with Israel then I will be happy to apologize because that is exactly what I favor.

Ok. I'm waiting for my apology :)

[Cognescenti]

......A "United Palestine," means a unified Gaza & West Bank, with corridors that link them together, and aren't controlled by Israel.

If they remain without proper and sovereign linkage, then there will never be a viable Palestinian State.

No where have I ever mentioned that the Jews should be "kicked out of Plaestine." No will I ever favor that.

A unified Palestinian State should be able to survive on its own, have a complete military, its economy should not be under Israeli control, it's territorial mass (air, land, sea) should not be under Israeli control, etc...

Great! I concur 99%. The corridor thing is a good idea but a 100% inviolate sovereign Palestinian corridor joining the West Bank and Gaza would mean that Israel would be cut in two...wouldn't it? You would almost need some type of crazy internationally-controlled corridor. Then there is the not insignificant problem of talking the locals into moving out.

Ok. I'm waiting for my apology :)
[/i]

I apologize. I misunderstood your point of a "unified Palestine". You did not call for the elimination of Israel. :)

[islamirama]

There's only one way to bring peace to that land.

Israel return all land it occupies and return to the land it was originally given (which it will never do)
Israel free all palestinians in from it's jails and live and rule only on it's own side of the land
Israel comply to the 67+ UN resoultions set forth by the UN
Palestine and Israel exist as two separate nations with their own rulers, economy, military and everything.

As for israel being "wipe of the map", i'm not too concerned about that as that will happen when al-madhi comes and until then they should co-exit as 2 seperate states, that would be smart of palestinians to do.

[Cognescenti]

There's only one way to bring peace to that land.

Israel return all land it occupies and return to the land it was originally given (which it will never do)
Israel free all palestinians in from it's jails and live and rule only on it's own side of the land
Israel comply to the 67+ UN resoultions set forth by the UN
Palestine and Israel exist as two separate nations with their own rulers, economy, military and everything.

As for israel being "wipe of the map", i'm not too concerned about that as that will happen when al-madhi comes and until then they should co-exit as 2 seperate states, that would be smart of palestinians to do.

At least 2 of your demands are incompatible:

Israel return all land it occupies and return to the land it was originally given

and

Palestine and Israel exist as two separate nations with their own rulers, economy, military and everything.

[islamirama]

At least 2 of your demands are incompatible:

Israel return all land it occupies and return to the land it was originally given

and

Palestine and Israel exist as two separate nations with their own rulers, economy, military and everything.

They are compatible, israel return all the land it occupies illegaly and took during 6day war. It should return to the land originally given to it at it's creation and stop calling jews from around the world to come settle illegally on Palestinian side of land.

If they can do that, then the two can have their own land and seperate everything to exist independently. If israel can't do that then there will never be peace.

[barney]

Neither Fatah nor Hammas want pre-67 borders.

They want the sea.

You can give them the Strip, the Golan, The westbank.

Then the bombing starts again.
If you give a inch a mile will be taken. First the violence has to stop and the attitude has to change.

[Zman]

If you give a inch a mile will be taken.

That's exactly what Israel did, since 1948.

They were never satisfied with what was given to them by the UN.

First the violence has to stop and the attitude has to change.

Bingo!

That's what Israel must do...

[barney]

That's exactly what Israel did, since 1948.

They were never satisfied with what was given to them by the UN.

Bingo!

That's what Israel must do...

Who shot first?

[Cognescenti]

They are compatible, israel return all the land it occupies illegaly and took during 6day war. It should return to the land originally given to it at it's creation and stop calling jews from around the world to come settle illegally on Palestinian side of land.

If they can do that, then the two can have their own land and seperate everything to exist independently. If israel can't do that then there will never be peace.

If Israel did this..."It should return to the land originally given to it at it's creation"...where would Israel be..on barges in the Mediterranean?

[barney]

In answer to my own question. 1947, the Arab nations invaded at Israels creation.
Theyve had many attempts to smash Israel since, all total flops.
They havnt tried in conventianal warfare since 73. (About the time the Israeli's went nuclear).

[Zman]

Who shot first?

The jewish immigrants in 1948 (and probably before that) shot first in their attempt to steal Palestinian land.

Have you heard of the Jewish terrorist organizations: Irgun, Haganah, palmach, the Stern Gang?

[north_malaysian]

And may i ask how much does Malaysia contribute to the Palestine people?
Curious leh

* Malaysia pledges $16 million to Palestinian Authority.

http://peace4palestine-housewife4pal...illion-to.html

* Aman Palestin sacrificed 58 goats and 3 cows, together with RM40,000 and being sent to Palestinians on Eid Al Adha.

* Aman Palestin established eye treatment dept. in Khalid bin Al Walid HEalth Centre for Palestinian refugees in Ein El Hilweh Camp, Lebanon.



http://amanpalestin.com/v1/index.php

[barney]

The day of partition November 29, 1947. Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood .
The following day, It began. Starting off with riots and murders by 9/1/48 the palastinian arabs and the armies of 5 nations started the attempt to drive the jews to the sea.

[Zman]

The day of partition November 29, 1947. Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood .
The following day, It began. Starting off with riots and murders by 9/1/48 the palastinian arabs and the armies of 5 nations started the attempt to drive the jews to the sea.

Before the partition, Jewish terror groups were bombing and murdering the Palestinians.

Before all that, the Brits had an agreement with the Arabs, that if they aided the West in attacking the Turks in the Middle East, they'd be compensated with Palestine and independent statelets.

At the same time as they were making that deal, the Brits & French were in league to stab the Arabs in the back, and concluded a separate deal with the European Jews, and allowed them to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers.

That large influx gave them the numbers, plus the Jews who were trained by Britain to fight the Nazi's, helped with their prior military experience, and that's when they started attacking, murdering and ethnically cleansing that land in order to provide more space for a much larger influx of Jews.

There wouldn't be any Jews in Palestine nor an Israel, if it wasn't for the European Zionists in league with the Nazis.

By murdering European Jews, the Holocaust lit a fire under their feet and compelled them to immigrate to a foreign land.

Without the Holocaust, the Jews would have never given up their homes, local heritage, business ventures, everything and everyone they knew, European advancement & comfort, for a piece of desert.

The Europeans were happy to oblige the Zionist request, Just so they could get rid of a large portion of Jews from European soil.

The most effective way to cause a massive population shift, is thru warfare.

In that way, the European killed 2 birds with one stone:

a) Getting rid of the Jews.

b) Having a European colonial outpost in the heart of the Middle East, manned by Jews...

[Keltoi]

I think Israel would be very offended at the suggestion they are a European outpost.

Anyway, the state of Israel was established in violence, I don't think one can deny that fact. Yes, they also responded to violence. That is why I don't believe either side has the moral high ground.

[Cognescenti]

...
There wouldn't be any Jews in Palestine nor an Israel, if it wasn't for the European Zionists in league with the Nazis.

That is just plain kooky. If anyone was in league with the Nazis it was any number of Arab actors.

In that way, the European killed 2 birds with one stone:

a) Getting rid of the Jews.

b) Having a European colonial outpost in the heart of the Middle East, manned by Jews...

That is equally kooky. How could "Zionists" be described as anyone's colony? :?

[islamirama]

Hamas' Shock and Awe

by Sam Bahour
(Monday, June 18, 2007)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The international community has a clear decision to make, and the decision must be made now. Will the community of nations bring about an abrupt end to the four-decade-old Israeli occupation that has caused so much death and destruction to both Palestinians and Israelis? To end the occupation today would mean to do the near impossible task of salvaging a sovereign Palestinian state on all of the land that was acquired by force by Israel in 1967. Barring this, the international community will likely continue to appease the Israeli occupiers, thereby forcing the Palestinians to revert back to calling for possibly the only remaining viable solution, the formal creation of one state from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River for all its citizens."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The recent overrunning of Gaza by Hamas militants was the equivalent to the United States’ Shock and Awe campaign in Iraq. Both campaigns were conducted outside the realm of international law and were violent and brutal, albeit each relative to their respective resources and internal contexts; both claimed to be ‘preemptive’ in nature; and both events placed the Palestinian people and struggle for national liberation in even a more precarious position.

Shock and Awe is a US invention in the same way that the US flavor of “shrink wrapped” democracy is a US creation. As the Bush Administration failed to export its understanding of democracy to Iraq via the US military, the US’s second regional blunder was trying to impose US democracy in occupied Palestine by using a proxy governing body called the Palestinian Authority. The US’s weapon of choice for Palestine was to dangle millions of dollars as bait, there for the taking if the Palestinian leadership showed total obedience. While US and other donor countries channeled billions of dollars to ‘promote’ democracy and ‘build’ Palestinian security forces, Hamas was busy learning the intricacies of the US game of military shock and awe and imposed democracy. During the last 17 months, Hamas attempted both, successfully: they won democratically held elections, as confirmed by election observer President Jimmy Carter, and then went on to overrun Gaza by brute force.

One thing Hamas did not do during this short time was govern. Correctly blaming their inability to govern on the Israeli and US-led economic blockade and the blatantly illegal Israeli policy of arresting Hamas-affiliated ministers and lawmakers, Hamas was given a free ride -- permitted to sit in the seat of authority without having to assume the full responsibility of governance. Instead of respecting the outcome of elections that one if its own past presidents monitored, the US allowed the Palestinian people to remain unable to define Hamas either as a legitimate governing body or as a failed experience. US meddling in other peoples internal affairs is the norm in the Middle East, but in Palestine, that norm was violently challenged last week in Gaza.

While Palestinian President Yasir Arafat was still alive, the US initiated the process of restructuring the Palestinian political system. The US forced Arafat to accept the creation of the position of prime minister, then they proceeded to demand that the bulk of the Palestinian President’s authority be transferred from President Arafat to the newly appointed Prime Minister. Then the US created a series of political hoops that Arafat would have to jump through to remain in the political game, of which the most relevant given today’s crisis was the restructuring of the Palestinian security forces. Millions of dollars and tons of equipment were dumped on the multitude of Palestinian security agencies and a high-profile US security ‘expert,’ U.S. Lieutenant General Keith Dayton, set up shop in Israel to make sure the Palestinian security forces were developing strategically, those same security agencies that were overrun in Gaza in a matter of hours. Then, Palestinians, under extreme pressure from the US, held legislative and municipal elections and when the results were not to the US’s liking, the Bush Administration mobilized the world to boycott the Palestinians -- people and government alike.

While all of this was going on, Israel maintained its hypocritical posture of the past 10 years -- talking peace while at the same time destroying any chances for a peaceful settlement. In the hopeful days of the Oslo Peace Accords, Israel accelerated its illegal Jewish-only settlement-building in the West Bank like never before. When a Jewish extremist assassinated Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, the Oslo framework was, for all intents and purposes, buried with him. To make sure the central Oslo principle of ‘land for peace’ would never be resurrected, Israel violently increased its attempts to bring about the collapse of Palestinian society via ‘targeted’ assassinations, home demolitions, uprooting of olive groves, over 500 military checkpoints, withholding $800 million in Palestinian tax revenues, nightly arrests, building of an internationally-proclaimed illegal separation wall on Palestinian lands, and on and on. This is the true context leading to the violence in Gaza. All of this -- and the international community watched, while continuing to fund the status quo and, all the while, referencing Israeli obligations in the already buried Oslo Peace Accords.

Thus, today’s events did not drop out of the sky unexpectedly. A 4-part mixture of 40 years of Israeli occupation, a US-led coup to collapse a democratically elected Palestinian government, a shift in internal Palestinian power-sharing after over 40 years of a single-party monopoly on authority, and most importantly, the international community’s failure to uphold its obligations under International Humanitarian Law – the Fourth Geneva Convention to be specific: All contributed to bringing us to where we are today.

The international community has a clear decision to make, and the decision must be made now. Will the community of nations bring about an abrupt end to the four-decade-old Israeli occupation that has caused so much death and destruction to both Palestinians and Israelis? To end the occupation today would mean to do the near impossible task of salvaging a sovereign Palestinian state on all of the land that was acquired by force by Israel in 1967. Barring this, the international community will likely continue to appease the Israeli occupiers, thereby forcing the Palestinians to revert back to calling for possibly the only remaining viable solution, the formal creation of one state from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River for all its citizens.

Given the Israeli refusal, even today, to classify the Gaza Strip and West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as “occupied lands” and the refusal to mark the Green Line (1949 Armistice Line) in most of the textbooks in their schools, all indications are that the Israelis have already decided that there is no room, on the ground, for another state between Israel and Jordan, although in cheap verbal discourse one may be led to believe that such a state already exists and that its citizens are squabbling over ministerial positions.

The US and Israel, drunk on power and addicted to war, have enlisted many in the region to do their dirty work. As the US and Israel try to distance themselves from their many colossal failures -- from Iraq to Palestine -- by engineering the creation of banana republics to serve their narrow self-interests, millions of common folk fall deeper into poverty and extremism.

Palestinians may be at a low point in their history and corrective action is undoubtedly on the horizon. The Palestinian people have a collective memory like that of an elephant, and as such the rampage and killings in Gaza by fellow Palestinians will not be legitimized or swept under the rug. Most likely, Hamas’ brutal actions in Gaza will mark the beginning of the end of Hamas as we know it today. With Hamas in the picture, or otherwise, the Palestinians will maintain a pluralistic society and political system that will continue to resist, as has been the case since the outset of this struggle, all foreign intervention in its internal affairs, be it Western, Iranian or Arab.

The present is volatile and the future is bleak, but one thing remains constant: When all the dust settles, there will still be an occupied and dispersed people -- the Palestinians -- and a colonial, military occupier -- Israel. No Shock and Awe campaign, from Hamas or Israel, and no imposed democracy, from Fatah or the US, will change this equation. Until Palestinians are free -- all Palestinians -- the world would be well advised, for all our sakes, not to turn its back on our just struggle.

Sam Bahour is a Palestinian-American living in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian City of Al-Bireh in the West Bank. He is co-author of Homeland: Oral Histories of Palestine and Palestinians (1994). He contributed this article to Media Monitors Network (MMN).

[Erundur]

I thought Muslims cannot kill Muslims. And yet they do.

Isnt that sinning?

MASJID AL-EJABAH

This is situated near Ansar Hospital. As mentioned in Muslim, the Prophet (SAS) and his Companions offered two rakat salat in this Masjid.The Prophet (SAS) made a very long supplication or dua after salat. The Prophet (SAS) said to his Companions,
“I requested three things from Allah (SWT) during this dua. First two are granted and the third one is rejected.
First of all, I requested Allah (SWT) not to destroy my Ummah with famine or draught. Secondly, please do not destroy my Ummah by drowning.
Thirdly, my Ummah be saved from fighting among themselves."

Abu Bakrah Ath-Thaqafi (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
The Prophet (SAW) said: "When two Muslims are engaged
in a combat against each other with their sword's and one is killed,
both are doomed to Hell". I said, "O Messenger of
Allah! As to the one who kills, it is understandable, but why the
slain one?" He (SAW) replied: "He was eager to kill his
opponent".[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].