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doodlebug
06-15-2007, 03:25 AM
assalam alaykum

Im confused. Are there really such things as "saints" in Islam? I was reading about a place in Alexandria, Egypt where a saint is buried underneath a mosque there. (at least I think it's under a mosque). Anyways, I also watched a program about Iran last week and they showed a lot of people going to various sites there where saints are buried and kissing the tombs, etc.

What's up with that?:? One of the things that attracted me to Islam was the fact that they don't have statues and like a million saints, etc. to pray to like I did when I was Catholic. The simplicity of praying to one God, Allah was the main draw for me so when I see stuff like this it is depressing and confusing.

help.
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Malaikah
06-15-2007, 04:27 AM
:sl:

We don't have saints in Islam, thats a given.

Statues are forbidden and we are only allowed to worship ALLAH, no one else!

But what is a wali? :?
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vpb
06-15-2007, 04:31 AM
What is a Wali?
Protector, Guardian, Supporter, Helper, Friend etc. [plural 'Auliyâ] see 33:17

source:http://muttaqun.com/wali.html
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snakelegs
06-15-2007, 04:32 AM
But in islam 'wali' Allah do exist.
this is what confused me....
i know that muslims do not worship saints or have statues. but some do recognize saints and use them as wasila (?) though this is not approved of by orthodox muslims, and as some have mentioned, is considered shirk.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
06-15-2007, 04:39 AM
:sl:

One cannot know what Tawheed is, if he first does not know what shirk is. Here is a link to an excellent book:

Kitab at-Tawheed of Shayk Muhammad ibn AbdulWahhab
http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/creed/...ahab/index.htm

When you read this book you'll notice how little the author speaks from himself. You’ll notice that it is just verses of Qur’an and Ahadith with benefits that are derived from them.

Originally Posted by doodlebug
assalam alaykum

Im confused. Are there really such things as "saints" in Islam?
No.

But the believers who have Imaan (strong faith) and Taqwa (Fear of Allaah) are the Awliya of Allaah, or the Allies of Allaah.
62. No doubt! Verily, the Auliyâ' of Allâh [i.e. those who believe in the Oneness of Allâh and fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which he has forbidden), and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)], no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve,
63. Those who believed (in the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism), and used to fear Allâh much (by abstaining from evil deeds and sins and by doing righteous deeds).
64. For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present world (i.e. righteous dream seen by the person himself or shown to others), and in the Hereafter. No change can there be in the Words of Allâh, this is indeed the supreme success.
A muslim is an Awliya of Allaah if he satisfies the above conditions and if he is not an innovator and he is a follower of the Sunnah of the Messenger as the Messenger and his Sunnah is the criterion between the Allies of Allaah and the Allies of the Devil.

Shaykh Al Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah has written an entire book on this subject which you can read here (and it's really the best book on this subject, it'll clarify everything for you Insha'Allaah):

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ies-devil.html

The Awliya of Allaah are not a special class of people who have hidden knowledge as some believe. Every muslim is a Wali' of Allaah, and his level of closeness to Allaah depends on how much worship he does, how close he is to the sunnah etc. The book explains this entire concept very clearly.

I was reading about a place in Alexandria, Egypt where a saint is buried underneath a mosque there. (at least I think it's under a mosque). Anyways, I also watched a program about Iran last week and they showed a lot of people going to various sites there where saints are buried and kissing the tombs, etc.
This is clearly wrong and it's condemned in the religion, and sadly it occurs far and wide. The Messenger has forbidden us from raising graves and taking graves (even his own) as places of worship and he has commanded us to level the graves. Following are clear and explict narrations regarding the forbiddence of taking graves as places of worship:

It is narrated in Muslim that:

Abu'l-Hayyaj al-Asadi told that 'Ali (b. Abu Talib) said to him:
Should I not send you on the same mission as Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent me? Do not leave an image without obliterating it, or a high grave without levelling it. This hadith has been reported by Habib with the same chain of transmitters and he said: (Do not leave) a picture without obliterating it.
Al-Bukhari and Muslim report that `Aa`ishah said:
"When the Messenger of Allah was close to death, he covered his face with a cloth, and then when it became difficult for him to breathe, he uncovered his face and said:
"May Allah curse the Jews and Christians who took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship - do not imitate them."

And, (added `Aa`ishah,) "if it had not been for this, his grave might have been raised above ground, but it was feared that it would be taken as a place of worship."
Muslim narrates on the authority of Jundub Ibn `Abdillah (ra) that he said: "I heard the Prophet say five days before his death:
"Verily, I bear witness before Allah that I have taken none of you as my Khaleel,2 for truly, Allah has taken me as His Khaleel, just as He took Ibraheem (as ) as a Khaleel. If I were to take any man from my Ummah as a khaleel, it would be Abu Bakr. Your predecessors used to take their Prophets' graves as places of worship, so do not make graves into places of worship for I have forbidden you to do this."
It is narrated by Ahmad, with a good chain on the authority of Ibn Mas'ood (ra), in a narration traced back to the Prophet himself, the following:
"Verily, the most wicked of people are those who, when the Hour overtakes them, are still alive, and those who take graves as places of worship." (Also Narrated by Abu Hatim in his Saheeh)
The Messenger has even forbidden muslims from travelling for the sake worship, except to three places:
"Do not saddle up your riding beasts, except to three mosques: "The Sacred Mosque (in Makkah), this my mosque and Al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem)." (Bukahri, Muslim)
The Messenger has blocked all the means to shirk and he has put great efforts to safe guard tawheed. But some muslims have deviated and gone down the road that you see, imitating the Jews and the Christians as the Messenger foretold would happen, and you yourself are a witness to this.

The way shirk came into this world was by people exaggerating the status of righteous people at the time of Nuh a.s. The 5 names of idols mentioned in Surah Nuh in the Qur'an were righteous people. Once they died, people built statues and started using these statues to get close to Allaah, using them as intercessors. This is exactly what occurs. The people who go and call out to the dead in the graves claim they are using them as intercessors, but Allaah has made it clear that that is the very essence of polythiesm. Surah Yunus:
18: And they worship besides Allâh things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allâh." Say: "Do you inform Allâh of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?" Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him!
What's up with that?:? One of the things that attracted me to Islam was the fact that they don't have statues and like a million saints, etc. to pray to like I did when I was Catholic. The simplicity of praying to one God, Allah was the main draw for me so when I see stuff like this it is depressing and confusing.

help.
I agree with you sister. That's the beauty of Islaam, that we simply pray to one God. This is the pure message of Islam that the Prophet Muhammad, and every other Prophet invited to. It is however, very sad and unfortunate, that some people are misleading Muslims into going to graves and asking the person in the grave to fullfill needs. And at times the grave is empty and the people running the show are making money off of the ignorance of the muslims. Don't let this matter cause a rift in your heart, Islaam is pure, strict, and uncompromisable monothiesm. May Allaah guide the muslims who have fallen in this evil of taking graves as places of worship.

If you have any questions at all, please ask :)

:w:
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vpb
06-15-2007, 04:41 AM
One cannot know what Tawheed is, if he first does not know what shirk is.
It seems it's a vice versa thing :)

abdul wahab he taught for more than 10 years with that same book, that even his student got bored :) lol
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
06-15-2007, 04:53 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
now i'm confused. how is a wali different from a saint?
hazrat moinuddin chishti is recognized as a sufi saint - he is the founder of the chishti sufis.
what's the difference?
Without getting into sectarianism, its quite wierd what the sufis have in regards to their belief of saints. Their concept of saints is quite akin to the catholic/christian concept, where they believe it is not only permissible, but recommended to go to these dead 'saints' and ask them to fullfill needs. I have heard this from their own scholars.

Whilst the correct Islamic concept of a Wali is different and it is briefly explained in my previous post, and for an in depth look at it, you can refer to the book I linked to in the same post.

Originally Posted by snakelegs
this is what confused me....
i know that muslims do not worship saints or have statues. but some do recognize saints and use them as wasila (?) though this is not approved of by orthodox muslims, and as some have mentioned, is considered shirk.
You see, no muslim would ever say he is worshipping other than Allaah. But then you will see some of those who profess Islaam, believing it to be permissable to call out to other than Allaah and to seek help from other than Allaah which is in direct contradiction to the core message of Islaam. You will find them at these graves making supplication to other than Allaah whilst the Messenger has said 'Supplication is worship', and they will be directing their worship to other then Allaah when worship is to be directed to Him only. And I have seen this happen with my own eyes, people prostrating to graves and such.

It seems it's a vice versa thing :)
Yeah. You can't appreciate black, if you've never seen white. You can't appreciate Tawheed if you don't know the futility of shirk.
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snakelegs
06-15-2007, 04:55 AM
thanks syilla and MM. i don't know about doodlebug, but i think i've got it clear now about saints and walis. some sufis call their saints by the title of "auliya" i think that's what confused me.
btw, i never heard of any muslims anywhere using statues! that's a whole new one for me. i thought all muslims were agreed on statues being strictly forbidden.
doodlebug, please forgive me for going somewhat off topic with your thread.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
06-15-2007, 04:56 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
btw, i never heard of any muslims anywhere using statues! that's a whole new one for me. i thought all muslims were agreed on statues being strictly forbidden.
But if someone were to put a chair in front of them with the same purpose behind it, whats the difference? It's not what the tangible object is, it could be a tree, the sun, a grave, or the person in the grave, but if the purpose and reasoning behind it is the same, then it doesn't really matter if its a statue or something else since it is being worshipped besides Allaah.
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snakelegs
06-15-2007, 05:20 AM
forgive me a little more, doodlebug, but my post crossed with this one.
thanks for your reply MM.
Originally Posted by MM²™
Without getting into sectarianism, its quite wierd what the sufis have in regards to their belief of saints. Their concept of saints is quite akin to the catholic/christian concept, where they believe it is not only permissible, but recommended to go to these dead 'saints' and ask them to fullfill needs. I have heard this from their own scholars.

yes, this is true.

Whilst the correct Islamic concept of a Wali is different and it is briefly explained in my previous post, and for an in depth look at it, you can refer to the book I linked to in the same post.



You see, no muslim would ever say he is worshipping other than Allaah.


But then you will see some of those who profess Islaam, believing it to be permissable to call out to other than Allaah and to seek help from other than Allaah which is in direct contradiction to the core message of Islaam. You will find them at these graves making supplication to other than Allaah whilst the Messenger has said 'Supplication is worship', and they will be directing their worship to other then Allaah when worship is to be directed to Him only. And I have seen this happen with my own eyes, people prostrating to graves and such.

yes, i have a friend who has gone to an urs celebration. are they making supplication to these saints or using them as intercessors? i realize that to use anyone for an intecessor is also considered shirk, but i don't really understand that. what about the role of intent? if he believes in his heart, and his intention is to worship god only, does the intent count? it's like a non-muslim may thing a muslim is worshipping the ka'ba, but he most definitely is not.

Yeah. You can't appreciate black, if you've never seen white. You can't appreciate Tawheed if you don't know the futility of shirk.
i think shirk is a much broader concept in islam than simply making a partner for god - would you agree? like some muslims consider jews to be practicing shirk even tho they are also strict monotheists - because they follow the teachings of their scriptures.
just noticed your most recent post -yes, i agree - if they are worshipping it, it doesn't matter whether its an actual statue, chair, money, grave etc.
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Malaikah
06-15-2007, 01:46 PM
:sl:

I'm confused. Some one just neg repped my post saying we do have saints...

What saints?! :uuh: How come I've never heard about this?
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-15-2007, 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
:w:
wali can be translate as friend.

in this context all pious Muslims are friends of Allah ta'ala
its tru bro :) Allah takes all those who are pious as his friends may Allah make us of them!

Ameen :)
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- Qatada -
06-15-2007, 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

I'm confused. Some one just neg repped my post saying we do have saints...

What saints?! :uuh: How come I've never heard about this?

:wasalamex


People get mixed up with the issue of wali and saint. Someone who is a wali of Allaah is someone who is a friend of Allaah, i.e. Prophet Ibrahim was a wali of Allaah and he was His khaleel - close friend.


The area where people get confused is where they say that someone is a close friend of Allaah, therefore we can ask him to 'intercede on our behalf' - just like christians do to their 'saints' because these people were pious.


Infact, this is explained by the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) before he was about to pass away:

Muslim narrates on the authority of Jundub Ibn `Abdillah (radhiAllahu anhu) that he said: "I heard the Prophet (peace be upon him) say five days before his death: "Verily, I bear witness before Allah (swt ) that I have taken none of you as my Khaleel,2 for truly, Allah (swt ) has taken me as His Khaleel, just as He took Ibraheem (as ) as a Khaleel. If I were to take any man from my Ummah as a khaleel, it would be Abu Bakr. Your predecessors used to take their Prophets' graves as places of worship, so do not make graves into places of worship for I have forbidden you to do this."


It is authentically reported on the authority of `Aa`ishah that Um Salamah (May Allah be pleased with them both) told the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) about a church she had seen in Abyssinia in which there were pictures. The Prophet said: "Those people, when a righteous member of their group or a pious slave (of Allah swt ) dies, they build a mosque over his grave and make images therein; by so doing, they combine two evils: (i) The evil of the graves and (ii) the evil of images." 1


And the Messenger of Allaah spoke the truth when he said:

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You would tread the same path as was trodden by those before you inch by inch and step by step so much so that if they had entered into the hole of the lizard, you would follow them in this also. We said: Allah's Messenger, do you mean Jews and Christians (by your words) "those before you"? He said: Who else (than those two religious groups)? -Sahih Muslim, Hadith 6448

These links are also beneficial inshaa Allaah:

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...hen-allah.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/762140-post33.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...er-graves.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets...-nuh-noah.html



And Allaah knows best.
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------
06-15-2007, 01:56 PM
:salamext:

So saints = wali ullah?
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-15-2007, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Muj4h1d4
:salamext:

So saints = wali ullah?
yep :)
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NoName55
06-15-2007, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
another thing is people keep taking misconceptions and slinging them, the sufi's who worship other then Allah have gone astray and the ones who do waseelah thru nabi have not gone astray.

this is my view, respect it and i have seen much evidence for it.
explain marked bold please, for I do not understand it

:w:
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Malaikah
06-15-2007, 01:57 PM
:sl:

So basically some people translate the word wali as saint? (Which is outrageous considering the connotations the word has in the English language!)

By the way, if someone who is strong in bid'ah appears to be able to do a miracle, it is not a miracle given to walis, it is from the shaytan.

This was mentioned in Ibn Tayymiyahs book which was linked to earlier.
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- Qatada -
06-15-2007, 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

So basically some people translate the word wali as saint? (Which is outrageous considering the connotations the word has in the English language!)

:wasalamex


Na'am, i personally feel that this was either a bad translation, or just an excuse to allow people to do what they do. Allaah knows best.



:salamext:
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
06-15-2007, 03:51 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
assalamu alaikum

no one worships saints, they are just esteemed, a saint is below a sahabi or a tabi'ee etc. its just a recognition of their piety.
Akhi, there are those that make Dua' to these saints and make sajdah to their graves. I can post videos if you wish. Yet these are the very same people that claim they are on Tawheed.

saints are only called saints due to karamat bestowed upon them for example there is a well known event of hadrat moinuddin chishti in which he lead an army through the water when trying to turn the indian subcontinent into muslims.
A Karamat can happen to any muslim, and a Karama is not sought for. Some of the 'karama' of these 'saints' is flying through the air, which is plain black magic, you can even see it Criss Angel doing it. Is he a Wali? For example, one of the leading Shaykhs today of the Naqshaband apparently has 'eyes' that can cure the soul of a Muslim. Who do these people think they are fooling?? (I can post the site where you can give him an e-bayah :D)

True Karama do happen, but it is does not mean that the person who recieved it is correct in all matters of the religion etc.

my parents knew far more about the history of the great wali ullah, i shud try learn more inshaAllah.

it is not a sufi thing, it is an islamic thing, when a person is bestowed karamat he is certainly a pious friend of Allah.

Allah knows best
Recieving a karamat is not the criterion for a person to be considered pious.

As Ibn Taymiyyah wrote in his book "The Criterion between the Allies of Allaah and the Allies of the Devil":
The karaamaat of (miraculous occurrences granted to) the allies of Allah are greater than all of these things. These miraculous things, though they may originate from an ally of Allah, they may also originate from an enemy of Allah. Such miraculous are performed by many of the disbelievers, associationists, Christians, jews, and hypocrites. They may also be performed by the people of deviant innovation (ahl-ul-bid'a), and in all of these cases, they are from the devils (shayateen). Thus, it is not allowed to believe that everyone who brings about some of these miraculous events is an ally of Allah. They can only be considered allies of Allah according to the the characteristics, actions and conditions which have been attributed to the allies of Allah in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. They may be known by the light of faith and the Qur'an, the internal reality of faith, and the external laws of Islam.
And it is known about some of those that the Sufis believe are Awliya were in reality practicers of black magic. You can refer to Ibn Taymiyyah's book and others. Here is an example of what can be termed miracle:
There are many such examples throughout history, such as Al-Harith Ad-Dimashqiy who appeared in Syria-Jordan in the time of Abdulmalik ibn Marwan, and claimed to be a prophet. His shayateen used to take his feet out of the leg irons, and prevent weapons from penetrating his body. Marble slabs praised Allah when he rubbed his hand over them. He used to see people walking and riding up in the sky and would say that they were the angels. In reality, they were nothing but the Jinn. When the Muslims captured him and prepared to kill him, the executioner thrust his spear at him, but it would not penetrate his body. Abdulmalik said to him: You forgot to say Bismillahi. The executioner then said the bismillahi, and killed him.
Is he then a wali?

Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
but the thing is the books got tons of hadith and ayyat which might have so much around it which we dont know... it seems dangerous to attempt to read kitab at-tauhid without a learned qualified scholar due to the small amount of detail and explenation given.

like bro MM said, its MAINLY ayyat and hadith...


Allahu a'lam, hope u understand wat im trying to say tho

You're right bro. Even though the clear meaning of the verses can be understood by any layman, here are two long, detailed, really EXCELLENT sets of audio lecture explanations on the Kitab for those who want to really understand and know the book and the verses and Ahadith in it:

Shaykh Abdur Rauf Shakir: http://islamlecture.com/kitabtawheed.htm
Shaykh Yasir Qadhi: http://audioislam.com/?seriesdetail=Kitaab%20at-Tawheed
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
06-15-2007, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i think shirk is a much broader concept in islam than simply making a partner for god - would you agree?
Yes and this is because Islaam is strict monothiesm. To make an intercessor between yourself and Allaah is shirk, to supplicate to other than Allaah is shirk, even if you believe that Allaah is the one who will ultimatly answer the supplication as this was the very polythiesm of the Arabs before Islaam.

The beauty of Islaam is that the common person has a direct connection to Allaah, and can pray and supplicate directly to Him without any intermediaries in the middle, and this is what Sr. Doodlebug said led her to Islaam.

like some muslims consider jews to be practicing shirk even tho they are also strict monotheists - because they follow the teachings of their scriptures.
Not because they follow their scriptures, but because they took their scholars as gods obeying them in the permissible and impermissible matters of the religion.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
06-15-2007, 04:17 PM
:sl:

From Ibn Taymiyyah's 'The Criterion...':
Among these people also are those to whom the shaitaan brings foods, fruits and sweets which are not found in the area of the person. Others are flown by their jinn to Makka or to Jerusalem or other places. Some of them are carried to Arafat on the day of standing at Arafat in the Hajj, and are returned the same night. He has not made a legal Islamic Hajj. He goes in his ordinary clothes, does not enter Ihram when passing the point of doing so, does not pronounce the "Labbaik" of the Hajj, does not stand at Muzdalifa, does not perform Tawwaf (circumambulation) of the Ka'ba at Makka, does not run between Safa and Marwa, and does not throw the stones at the boulders symbolizing the devil. No, he just goes to Arafat in his ordinary clothes, and comes back the same night. This is not a valid Hajj in the consensus of all of the Muslims. It is like one who comes to the Friday prayer and prayers without ablutions to other than the direction of prayer. One of these people who were carried to Arafat on the day of standing saw angels in his sleep after his return recording the reward of the pilgrims. He asked them: Aren't you going to record me? To which they answered: You are not one of the pilgrims. i.e. You did not perform a legal Islamic Hajj.

There are many differences between the karamaat with which Allah honors His allies, and the satanic states which seemingly resemble them. For example, the karamaat of the allies of Allah are a result of faith and pious practice, while the satanic states are a result of that which Allah and His Prophet have interdicted. Allah said:
[Say: That which my Lord has forbidden is none other that despicable acts - both apparent nd hidden - sin, transgression with no justification, to associate as partners with Allah that for which He has sent no authority, and to say about Allah that which you do not know.] Qur'an 7/33
Thus speaking about Allah without knowledge, associationism, oppression, and all despicable acts have been forbidden by Allah ta'ala, and His Prophet (sas). They can never, therefore, be a cause or reason for the honor bestowed by Allah on His allies in the form of karamaat. If any seemingly miraculous feat does not come about via prayer, remembrance of Allah, and reading of the Qur'an, but is brought about by that which is loved by shaitaan, and by those things in which there is shirk (associationism) such as seeking the aid or succor of created beings, or is something sought for the purpose of oppressing others or committing sins, all of these are satanic states, and are not of the karamaat of Ar-Rahman!

Some of them, when they attend the sessions of whistling and beating sounds (music) are descended upon by their shaitaan, and carried through the air right out of the house. If one of the true allies of Allah comes on the scene, the shaitaan is repulsed, and the man falls to the ground as has happened on more than one occasion.

Others seek the succor of created beings - either living or dead - and irregardless of whether the one whose aid is sought is a Muslim, a Christian, or a Pagan. Shaitaan then comes to them in the form of the one whose aid was sought, and helps him out with some of his needs. The man then thinks that the one who he called indeed came to him, or that an angel came to him in the form of the one called. In reality, it is none other than shaitaan, who has succeeded in leading him astray by getting him to commit blatant shirk by calling to other than Allah for aid, just as shaitaan used to enter into the idols of Makka, and speak to the idol-worshippers. Sometimes, shaitaan appears to them in human form and says that he is Al-Khidhr. He then informs him of some of the unseen things, and helps him with some of his needs. Another satanic trick which has been witnessed by many Muslims, Jews, Christians, and others among the disbelievers in the lands of the East and the West is that when one of them dies, shaitaan comes to them after his death in his form and his face, and so they believe that it is that person (i.e. his "ghost"). This jinn then may pay off some of the dead man's debts, return his trusts, do various other things related to the dead man, and enter into his wife, and leave. They may have burned the body of the dead man, as the disbelievers of India do, and so imagine that he lives after his death. One of these who are fooled by shaitaan was an old man in Egypt. He left a will to his servant not to let anyone wash his body, telling him that he would come himself after his death to wash his own body. When he died, his servant saw someone come in the form of the man, and believed that it was him and that he washed his own body! When the one who had come had finished the body washing, he vanished without a trace. That was a shaitaan he had succeeded in leading the one who had died astray by telling him that he would come to wash himself and not to allow anyone to wash his body. When he died, this shaitaan came in his form in order to lead others astray as he had already led the dead man astray.

Some have seen a throne in the air above which there is a light and a voice which addresses them saying: I am your Lord. If they are people of knowledge, they recognize this as shaitaan, castigate him, seek refuge in Allah from him, and the whole vision and the voice disappear.

Others see humans while they are wide awake, and they claim to be prophets or righteous men or "shaikhs". This has happened to many people. Some have seen this when visiting the grave of that person - they see the grave split open, and this image comes out of it to them, and they believe it to be the dead man. It is nothing but a jinn which has assumed the form of the dead man. Others have seen a horseman coming out of the grave or entering it. That, too, is nothing but a shaitaan. Anyone who says that they have seen a prophet with his eyes saw nothing but his own imagination.

Some of them see in their sleep a great man such as Abu Bakr or others come to them and shave their head, or cut short their hair, or dress them in a hat or a robe. Then, when they wake up, they find their hair shaven or shortened, or that hat or coat which they dreamed on them. It was a jinn who came and did these things, and this is one of the satanic states which occur to those who have deviated from the Qur'an and the Sunnah. They are of different levels (of deviation), just as the jinn which become attached to them and are of their type and their school of belief are. Some of the jinn are disbelievers (kuffar), some corrupt sinners (faasiq), and others are simply mistaken in their actions (mukhti'). If the human is a disbeliever or a sinner, or ignorant, the jinn will join him in his disbelief or sin or going astray. They may help him when he agrees with them in the kufr which they have chosen such as swearing in the name of those jinn which they view as great (thereby associating them with Allah), or writing the names of Allah or His words with filthy materials, or inverting the opening chapter of the Qur'an or the sura of Ikhlaas, or Ayat-ul-Kursiy or other parts of the Qur'an, and then write them with filth. Then the jinn will carry him on water, or through the air because of that kufr which has pleased him. What's more, they may come to him with women or young boys which they desire, either through the air, or by driving them to him. There are many such examples which would take too long to enumerate. Belief in such things is belief in Al-jabt and At-Taaghoot which has been mentioned in the Qur'an (4:51). Al-Jabt is sorcery, and At-Taaghoot is devils and idols. If a man is in obedience to Allah and His Prophet, they (i.e. the evil jinn) will not be able to join him in that, nor to make peace with him.

This is why the prescribed worship of the Muslims is in the mosques, which are the houses of Allah. Those who frequent the mosques most are the farthest of the creation from the satanic states. On the other hand, the people of associationism and innovation (bid'a) sanctify graves and tombs of the dead. They pray to the dead (saints, etc.) or they pray (to Allah, but) in his name, or they hold the conviction that any du'a made in the presence of his grave is answered. Such are much closer to the satanic states, the Prophet said in a hadith reported by both Muslim and Bukhari:
"Allah cursed the Jews and the Christians, they took the graves of their prophets as places of prayer (masajid)."
And, in the collection of Muslim, it is recorded that the Prophet (sas) said just a few nights before his death:
"The most generous of people with me with his companionship and that which he possesses is Abu Bakr. If I were to take a beloved friend from the people of this world, I would take Abu Bakr as my beloved friend, but I am the beloved friend of Allah. Let there not remain any small opening into the masjid without being sealed up except for that of Abu Bakr. Verily those who came before you take their graves as places of worship. Take note! Do not take graves as places of worship, verily, I forbid you that."
In Muslim and Bukhari it is reported that the Prophet during his terminal illness was told by his companions of a church in Ethiopia, its beautiful architecture and its statuary. The Prophet said:
"Those people, whenever a righteous man among dies build a place of worship over his grave, and carved for it those statues. They are the most evil of Allah's creation before Allah on the day of Qiyama."
In the collection of Ahmad and Ibn Hibban, it is reported that the Prophet (sas) said:
"Verily among the most evil of Allah's creation are those to whom Qiyama comes while they are still alive, and those who take graves as places of worship."
And, in another sahih hadith, the Prophet (sas) said:
"Do not sit on graves, nor pray toward them."
In the collection of Malik, the Prophet is recorded as having said:
"O, Allah, do not let my grave become an idol after I am gone which is worshipped. The anger of Allah is intense at a people who take the graves of their prophets as places of worship."
In the books of As-Sunan, it is recorded that the Prophet said:
"Do not take my grave as a special place (to which you exert yourselves to come from near and far), and ask Allah's prayers upon me wherever you are for, verily, your prayers reach me."

"No one gives salaam to me but that Allah returns my soul to me until I can return his greeting."

"Verily, Allah has assigned angels to my grave who deliver to me the greetings of my nation."

"Be prolific in asking Allah's prayers upon me on Friday, and the night before Friday, for your prayers are shown to me. They said: O, Messenger of Allah, how are our prayers shown to you when you have decomposed in the earth? The Prophet said: Verily Allah has forbidden the earth to consume the meat of the prophets."
Allah said in His book about the associationist people of Nuh:
[They said: Do not forsake your gods, do not forsake Wadd, Suwaa', Yaghooth, Ya'ooq, and Nasr.] Qur'an 71/23
Ibn Abbas and others of the first generations reported about this verse:
"These "gods" (mentioned in the verse) were a righteous people among the people of Nuh. When they died, the people were devoted to their graves. Later, they made images of them and worshipped them. This was the beginning of idol worship."
Thus, the Prophet forbade the taking of graves as places of worship to block the way which leads to shirk, just as he forbad praying at the time of sunrise and sunset because the associationists at that time used to prostrate to the sun, and shaitaan positions himself in line with the sun at those times. Prayer at those times resembles the prayer of the associationists, so the Prophet closed this door. Shaitaan leads the sons of Adam astray to the extent of his ability. So whoever worships the sun and the moon and the planets and calls to them as the planet worshippers do, shaitaan will cone upon them and speak to him and inform of certain things. They then call this the "spirits of the planets", and it is shaitaan! Although shaitaan may aid a person with some of his needs and goals, he does harm to him many times greater than any benefit! The final disposition of one who obeys him is evil indeed - except for he toward whom Allah turns in acceptance.

Likewise, the devil may address those who worship idols, and likewise also those who call for aid from someone who is dead or absent, and likewise someone who prays to a dead man, or prays with his name, or believes that supplication near his grave is superior to supplication in his house or in the mosques. Many of them believe in an alleged hadith, which is a forgery in the unanimous opinion of the experts, and which says:
"When knowledge fails you, you must take yourselves to the people of the graves" (forged hadith)
This was forged by those wishing to open the door to shirk.

The people of innovations (bid'a) and the people of shirk who resemble them among the idol worshippers, the Christians, and the Muslims who have gone astray experience phenomena at the tombs which they visit which they imagine to be karamaat, but which are from the devils. For example, they may put a pair of pants on the grave, and come back to find it tied in a knot, or they may bring someone who is possessed to the grave, and see the jinn who has afflicted him leave him. The devil does this to lead them further astray. If Ayat-ul-Kursiy is read there with true belief and intention, none of these things will happen. Tauhid drives shaitaan away. This is why some of them have been carried in the air and when they said: "Laa ilaha illa Allah" (There is no deity but Allah), they fell to the earth. When some of them see the grave split open and someone coming out of it who they imagine to be the dead man, it is really a shaitaan. There are so many examples that this small book is not sufficient to enumerate them.

Since isolation in caves or deserts is an innovation which has not been prescribed or recommended by Allah and His Prophet (sas), the devils frequently make their abode in caves and on mountains. Examples are the cave of blood which is on Mount Qasiyoon, Mount Lebanon, Mount Fath in Aswan, Egypt, the Mountains of Rome in Afghanistan, various mountains in the Arabian Peninsula, Mount Lukam, Mound Al-Ahyash, Mount Sulan near Ardabeel, Mount Shahank in Tabriz, Mount Mashko in Aqshwaan, Mount Nahawund, and many other mountains and places where people believe there are righteous man of the human type. They call them "the men of the unseen", and they are nothing but men of the jinn. The jinn are "men", just as humans are men. Allah said:
[And verily some men from among the humans used to seek refuge in men from among the jinn, and so the latter merely increased the former in their burden (their burden of fear as the jinn gain more ability to strike fear into them due to their shirk, and their burden of sin, as they sink deeper and deeper into the shirk of seeking the protection of the jinn instead of Allah.)] Qur'an 72/7
Some of these jinn appear in the form of a man covered with hair, with skin like that of a goat, and people who do not know him think him to be a human, but he is a jinn. It is said: on every mountain of the ones mentioned earlier are the forty Abdaal (see page 10). Those who they believe to be the abdaal are the jinn who live on those mountains, as is well known in a number of ways.

Again, this area is too vast to go into it here, nor to mentions all of the things which I know about it. I have personally seen and heard more of these things than can fit in this book which was written for one who asked me to mention to him something about the allies of Allah, and how to recognize the important elements in this question.
Read the rest of the chapter here: http://www.islamicboard.com/597999-post15.html

Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
06-15-2007, 04:43 PM
:sl:

another thing is people keep taking misconceptions and slinging them, the sufi's who worship other then Allah have gone astray and the ones who do waseelah thru nabi have not gone astray.

this is my view, respect it and i have seen much evidence for it.
Imaam Abu Haneefah said,
"It is not befitting for anyone to call upon Him, except by Him, and with the supplication that He has permitted and ordered, that which is instructed in His statement:
"And Allaah has Beautiful Names, so call upon Him by them, and leave the company of those who deviate concerning His Names. They will be recompensed for what they used to do." [Sooratul-A'raaf 7:180]”
ad-Durrul-Mukhtaar ma'a Haashiyah Raddul-Muhtaar (6/396- 397).

Imaam Abu Haneefah also said,
It is detested for the supplicator to say, `I ask You by the right of so and so,' or,`By the right of Your Prophets and Messengers, and by the right of the Sacred House and the Sacred Sanctuary."
Sharhul-'Aqeedatut-Tahaawiyyah (p.234) and Ithaafus-Saadaatul Mustaqeem (2/285) and Sharhul Fiqhil-Akbar (p. 198) of al-Qaaree.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
06-15-2007, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by MM²™
:sl:

Imaam Abu Haneefah also said,
It is detested for the supplicator to say, `I ask You by the right of so and so,' or,`By the right of Your Prophets and Messengers, and by the right of the Sacred House and the Sacred Sanctuary."
Sharhul-'Aqeedatut-Tahaawiyyah (p.234) and Ithaafus-Saadaatul Mustaqeem (2/285) and Sharhul Fiqhil-Akbar (p. 198) of al-Qaaree.
WHOAH!!!

i see, so its makhruh but not haram?

detested - makhruh right? :S


jazakAllah khair for thaT!!!

Alhamdulillah ive never performed waseelah yet, but i never considered it haram either. i still aint sure, i'll research :D although i've already done loads of research.


i'll make istikhara :D
Reply

NoName55
06-15-2007, 05:11 PM
:sl:
detested - makhruh right
Means hated not just disliked (makruh)

wasalaam

detest is to feel intense hatred
Reply

doodlebug
06-15-2007, 07:06 PM
Wow thanks for all the input guys!!

So...bottom line..... do I not bother going to this place 'cause it's a bad mosque? http://www.sacred-destinations.com/e...rsi-mosque.htm
Reply

snakelegs
06-15-2007, 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by MM²™
Yes and this is because Islaam is strict monothiesm. To make an intercessor between yourself and Allaah is shirk, to supplicate to other than Allaah is shirk, even if you believe that Allaah is the one who will ultimatly answer the supplication as this was the very polythiesm of the Arabs before Islaam.

The beauty of Islaam is that the common person has a direct connection to Allaah, and can pray and supplicate directly to Him without any intermediaries in the middle, and this is what Sr. Doodlebug said led her to Islaam.

Not because they follow their scriptures, but because they took their scholars as gods obeying them in the permissible and impermissible matters of the religion.
i agree that it is a beautiful thing about islam that you do not need a "middleman" to connect with god.
but i still have a question about the role of intent here, because i know intent is important in islam. if someone chooses to invoke a saint's merits but his intent is completely to worship god alone and he is supplicating to god alone - is he doing wrong? (i am aware that there have been abuses and deviations in sufism over the centuries).
the other question i have is would you say hazrat moinuddin chishti (http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...-nawaz-ra.html) was practicing black magic?
sorry for all these questions, but this is something i've wondered about for a long time.
Reply

NoName55
06-15-2007, 07:38 PM
would invoking of waseelah/middleman, not be a bit like a pupil wanting to ask his examiner, please give me a passing grade because you like mr x who was very dear to you?
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
06-15-2007, 07:43 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
WHOAH!!!

i see, so its makhruh but not haram?

detested - makhruh right? :S


jazakAllah khair for thaT!!!

Alhamdulillah ive never performed waseelah yet, but i never considered it haram either. i still aint sure, i'll research :D although i've already done loads of research.


i'll make istikhara :D
Will you do something that a person from the Salaf considered as 'detested'? Especially an Imam like Abu Hanifa (you say you make taqlid of him)? I really don't see the need to even do Istikhara when the proof of its dislike amongst the Salaf is in front of you.

Originally Posted by doodlebug
Wow thanks for all the input guys!!

So...bottom line..... do I not bother going to this place 'cause it's a bad mosque? http://www.sacred-destinations.com/e...rsi-mosque.htm
I'd avoid it myself since the Mosque has a grave in it.

Originally Posted by snakelegs
i agree that it is a beautiful thing about islam that you do not need a "middleman" to connect with god.
but i still have a question about the role of intent here, because i know intent is important in islam. if someone chooses to invoke a saint's merits but his intent is completely to worship god alone and he is supplicating to god alone - is he doing wrong?
What do you mean by 'invoke a saint's merit'? I just want to get the intended meaning completely clear.


(i am aware that there have been abuses and deviations in sufism over the centuries).
the other question i have is would you say hazrat moinuddin chishti (http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...-nawaz-ra.html) was practicing black magic?
sorry for all these questions, but this is something i've wondered about for a long time.
I don't know much about him, but anything from the sufi Tariqa's detailing the 'miracles' of their 'shaykhs', I would take with a few grains of salt.
Reply

snakelegs
06-15-2007, 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
would invoking of waseelah/middleman, not be a bit like a pupil wanting to ask his examiner, please give me a passing grade because you like mr x who was very dear to you?
yes. but it is not a good analogy because it lacks the shirk concept. if you go by this example, it is merely silly, not harmful.
(mind you, i am not advocating anything here - just trying to understand).
Reply

snakelegs
06-15-2007, 10:02 PM
What do you mean by 'invoke a saint's merit'? I just want to get the intended meaning completely clear.
well, i'm not sure if i really understand this idea, but i think it means to remind god (which of course, he doesn't need) of a certain person's good deeds - like trying to put god in a good mood?). personally, i don't see the point either and it doesn't make much sense to me, but is it really shirk if the person's intent is to worship god alone?
Reply

NoName55
06-15-2007, 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoName55
would invoking of waseelah/middleman, not be a bit like a pupil wanting to ask his examiner, please give me a passing grade because you like mr x who was very dear to you?
yes. but it is not a good analogy because it lacks the shirk concept. if you go by this example, it is merely silly, not harmful.
(mind you, i am not advocating anything here - just trying to understand).
Not harmfull? is silly Billy going to pass his exams or fail? Is Mr. Examiner going to pass him? :)

Wasalaam alaikum to believers & seekers
Reply

- Qatada -
06-15-2007, 10:32 PM
Hi snakelegs.


If you've seen most of the acts of shirk which have taken place in history, most have only taken place as acts of 'disliked activities' - yet if one was to persist in this, then many generations later this is likely to turn into an innovation in the religion, and from innovations come other aspects which usually lead to shirk (associating partners with God in worship.)


So we have to turn away from the disliked to save the future generations from any deception the shaytaan (satan) may cause. Just try to remember this famous saying; give shaytaan an inch, and he'll be a ruler.


He just wants us to do one act of innovation per generation, and then the future generations are likely to increase in the innovations, and then usually fall into shirk. As you can see in the story of Prophet Noah, the story of the Christians, and even people from among the Muslims who have fallen into similar. And Allaah knows best.




Peace.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
06-15-2007, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
well, i'm not sure if i really understand this idea, but i think it means to remind god (which of course, he doesn't need) of a certain person's good deeds - like trying to put god in a good mood?).
This is where I think your getting. If a person were to say in supplication: "O Allah! I ask you alone by Your noble Prophet! (or the name of other righteous persons)".

Br Abuz Zubair of IA had written about this:
5) To call upon Allah alone, asking Him by His Prophet is a valid difference of opinion in Fiqh where none is censured. For example: O Allah! I ask you alone by Your noble Prophet!

This type of tawassul does not entail Shirk by agreement, but it is, nevertheless, a bida'i tawassul, over which the scholars have differed.

Bida’i tawassul is, as al-‘Allama Hasan al-Shatti al-Dimashqi al-Hanbali says while commenting on Matalib Ulin-Nuha, quoting Ibn ‘al-Imad al-Hanbali: ‘Tawassul through the righteous is for one to say: O Allah! I make tawassul to you through your Prophet Muhammad SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam, or someone else, that you fulfil my need’

Take note, that the tawassul referred to here involves directly calling upon Allah and addressing Him alone, by the right of His creation. It does not involve calling upon anyone other than Allah, for that will be dealt with later on.

This type of Tawassul is differed over amongst the scholars, including the Hanbalis.

Some scholars, including Ibn Qudama allow this type of Tawassul, while other scholars, such as Ibn Taymiyya do not allow it.

[...]
And as I quoted before, great Scholars like Imam Abu Hanifa detested this practice. He said:
It is detested for the supplicator to say, `I ask You by the right of so and so,' or,`By the right of Your Prophets and Messengers, and by the right of the Sacred House and the Sacred Sanctuary."
Sharhul-'Aqeedatut-Tahaawiyyah (p.234) and Ithaafus-Saadaatul Mustaqeem (2/285) and Sharhul Fiqhil-Akbar (p. 198) of al-Qaaree.
personally, i don't see the point either and it doesn't make much sense to me, but is it really shirk if the person's intent is to worship god alone?
In the above scenario, the supplication is being made to Allaah alone and not the Prophet or saints, therefore it is not shirk.

But when one starts to believe that he can ask/call out to other than Allaah whilst at the same time believing that Allaah is the one who will answer his supplication and the one he is calling out to is nothing more than an intermediary, it is still shirk. This is because the Arabs of the time of ignorance believed that Allaah was the Lord, but they commited association in worship, i.e. they took their idols as intercessors (and these idols were statues of former righteous people) thus they commited polythiesm.

This is confirmed in the Qur'an:
And they worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do you inform Allah of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?" Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him!
[10:18]
Similarly, Allah said of the pagans: ‘Most of them do not believe in Allah, except that they associate partners unto Him’

al-Tabari says in his tafseer: Their belief in Allah is their saying: Allah is our Creator, our Provider, who gives us death and gives us life; while their Shirk is to attribute partners unto Allah in His worship and invocation.

Lastly, Ibn al-Qayyim says in Madarij al-Salikin (1/332):
“From the forms (of Shirk): Requesting the dead for needs, seeking their aid and turning to them.

This is the basis for Shirk in the world. This is because the actions of the dead have ceased. He is not able to harm or benefit himself, let alone the one who seeks his aid, or asks him to fulfil his need, or asks him to intercede for him with Allah, for this is from his ignorance with respect to the intercessor and the one interceded for, as has preceded. This is because he (the intercessor) is not able to intercede for him with Allah, except with His permission. Allah did not make his ‘seeking aid’ and petitioning, a cause for Allah’s permission to be granted. The only cause that grants Allah’s permission (for intercession) is the perfection of Tawheed. Yet, this Mushrik comes along, with a cause that only prevents Allah’s permission (for intercession)!”
I think you'll get more clarification in these posts:
http://www.islamicboard.com/691705-post4.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/691707-post5.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/691708-post6.html

I know your origninal question was a bit different to this, but I figured that if you read all the possibilities, it might be more clearer to you. Besides, this isn't offtopic :p Ask if you have any more questions :)
Reply

chacha_jalebi
06-15-2007, 11:27 PM
salaam

i have always been like weary off this saint and sufism thin, because its just all dodgy.

and if your gona ask, ask directly from Allah (swt)

"you alone we worship, YOU ALONE WE ASK FOR HELP" - surah fatiha, we recite it everyday remem :p

and clearly Allah (swt) says in surah ghafir " call upon me and i will respond to you, and the arrogant ones who dont call upon me, will go to hell" simple!

there are loads of ayahs about it, Allah (swt) is the creator, we should ask directly to him, without a creation!

there are only like 3 accepted ways of doin tawassul, calling upon Allah (swt) by his 99 namess, i.e- in surah al araaf it says "Allah has the most beatufill names so call upon him by them"

and a hadiths in Abu Dawud, Nisaai....

Once, the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) saw a man saying in his Tashahhud: ‘I ask You by virtue of the fact that all praise belongs to You, none has the right to be worshiped but You Alone, having no partner. The Great Bestower of all blessings, O Originator of the Heavens and the Earth. O Possessor of Majesty and Honor, O Ever-Living, O Sustainer and Protector of all that exists. Indeed, I ask You for Paradise, and I seek Your Refuge from the Fire.” So the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) said to his companions:“Do you know what he has suplicatted with?” They said: “Allah and His Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) know best.” He said: “By Him in Whose Hand is my soul, he has supplicated to Allah by His Great Name, if He is called upon by them, He responds and if He is asked by it, He gives.”

Also tawassul can be done by your own goods as was evident from the people trapped in the cave and they mentioned their good deeds and asked Allah (swt) to open up the trapped cave and it did, and also in surah al imran

“Our Lord! We have believed in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger; so write us down among those who bear witness (to the truth i.e. none has the right to be worshiped except Allah).”

and again

“Those who say: ‘Our Lord! We have Indeed, believed, so forgive us our sins and save us from the punishment of the Fire’”

so by mentionin your good deeds you can do tawussal :D

anotther way which is by a good person who is ALIVE!!!

this is a bit like when you say to someone, oh pray for me, or remember me in your duas.

a hadiths is in Bukhari bout it aswell...

Anas Ibn Malik (radhi allahu anhu) narrates from Umar Ibn Khattab (radhi allahu anhu) that when the people suffered from drought he used to ask al-Abbas Ibn Mutallib (radhi allahu anhu) to pray for rain for them. He used to say: “O Allah we used to request our Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) to supplicate to You for rain, and You would bless us with rain. Now, we ask the uncle of our Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) to supplicate to You, so grant us rain.”


so the three ways of callin Allah (swt) by his beautifull names, mentionin your good deeds and by a good person whos alive, are the ways to do tawussul!

but most of scholars agree that the bestest way is by askin directly from Allah (swt)!!!

anyone askin the dead or somethin is wrong and should jump off a cliff:p

next :p

miracles of the saints? erm erm erm :D

Allah (swt) knows best, but personally i do highly doubt some of the miracles,im not mentionin names but i do doubt the miracles i.e - someone turnin into a bird and rescuin someone, and someone standin in water for 40 years and bein spoke to by Allah (swt) and then when asked what he wants replyin, he wants to be Ali (ra), then Allah (swt) sayin " Ali (ra) has already been created but il give you his scent" lol that just doesnt get into my heart because if Allah (swt) asked me and im sure all of us "what do you want" we would say "jannah" direct innit, and also when Hadhrat Musa (alayhi salam) wanted to see Allah (swt) he passed away because of the amount of noor, but these people manage to see Allah (swt) and speak with him directly and stuff, they can do somethin which a Prophet (alayhi salam) hasnt done, thats certainly dodgy and doubtin for manz :D

also there are many other stories, but Allah hu Alim, like many times it may just be a lie attributed to the person, or it may be true, anywhoo it shouldnt make a difference because islam is stil great and will remain great, it dont need miracles to show that, Allah (swt) has already shown that islam is great!

may Allah (swt) guide us and make us better muslims and forgive us
Reply

snakelegs
06-15-2007, 11:55 PM
thanks to all your replies, i think i understand this now.
personally, i agree - god needs no middlemen, why would he?
anyway, i'm glad i asked cuz i learned something about the reasoning behind this ruling about tawassul. (i always like to know the reasoning). :statisfie
Reply

doodlebug
06-16-2007, 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
Not harmfull? is silly Billy going to pass his exams or fail? Is Mr. Examiner going to pass him? :)

Wasalaam alaikum to believers & seekers

Talk like this scares me because it can lead one down a slippery slope. This is exactly how Catholics justify kneeling in front of statues of the saints....they say that they are merely going to God through the saint because the saint is already in heaven and can put a good word in for them, so to speak.

God doesn't need anything. God is Almighty and All Powerful. He needs no one to put in a good word to make your chances better because He Sees All Things and knows all about what you have done and what your intentions are, etc. He knows more about you than you do.

I think when we start putting things between us and Him it will lead to other things. I mean don't we have enough that comes between us and him?? Money, pride, lust, etc. It's all I can personally do to fight off these things I don't need to add more fuel to the fire.

It just makes me sad to see these women and men crying at the gates of these tombs and kissing the metal thinking it will get them to heaven.

You kind of see that in Hajj too though don't you? People craving to touch the Kaba.................what's that all about? It's a object...it's not Allah. Sure it is a holy place but why crowd around just to touch it unless it's just for the sake of history and makes you feel good that you've touched something that Abraham has touched. (though the amount of times it's been redone the chances of your touching a spot that he touched are pretty slim to none I would think, right?)

Maybe I'm too confused right now but all I know is I like my old Islam where I put my head to the ground and I am alone in front of my Creator just Him and me and I am humbled beyond humbled and NO ONE ELSE is there. just us. :D
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
06-18-2007, 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
How would you know that you're a saint?

If the saints themselves dont know that they are saints, how other people know that they are saints.

How people know that Walisongo (Indonesian 9 saints), Abdul Qadir Jilani (Iraqi), Dhul Nun (Egyptian), Ismail Nagore (Indian) etc.

What are the qualifications of an act to be qualified as "Karamah"? Any example of "Karamah"?
:sl:

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ies-devil.html

Simply the best book on the subject. I advice you to take the time out to read it.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
06-19-2007, 04:13 PM
:salamext:

Off-topic and unecessary posts deleted. Please stay on topic inshaAllah.

Read the following articles, inshaAllah:

Is it permissible to call upon a dead wali (“saint”) or Hazrat ‘Ali?

Praying at graves and the conditions of intercession

Ruling on seeking blessing from righteous people

Seeking help from anyone other than Allaah is shirk

Miracles of the pious (karâmât) are real but do not include knowing the Unseen

Karâmât are not a proof of exceptional piety

And also this short article:

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=10289&ln=eng
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
06-19-2007, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
i accept asking Allah directly by mentioning the name of one of his beloved which in this case is rasullulah salawatullahi wassalamu alaih.

so wats the disagreement? :confused:
:sl:

http://www.islamicboard.com/770258-post12.html
Reply

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