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View Full Version : THE GAZA "DISENGAGEMENT" - Your Opinions



Palestinian_Lib
08-18-2005, 06:28 AM
.: Free Palestine:.


Assalamu'aleykum,
This topic has been a long time deleyed so I think we had better get started. First a couple of questins. What do you think about the recent stories that are unfolding? How is the Media viewing all this? What do you think are the affects of this "diengagement" are to Gaza and the Palestinians? What about Israel and the settelers?
And if you have no idea what I'm saying check my siggy and here are some talking points that can help.


.: Al Hoorya LiFilisten:.
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mary
08-18-2005, 09:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Palestinian_Lib
.: Free Palestine:.


Assalamu'aleykum,
This topic has been a long time deleyed so I think we had better get started. First a couple of questins. What do you think about the recent stories that are unfolding? How is the Media viewing all this? What do you think are the affects of this "diengagement" are to Gaza and the Palestinians? What about Israel and the settelers?
And if you have no idea what I'm saying check my siggy and here are some talking points that can help.


.: Al Hoorya LiFilisten:.

:sl:
I think the media in the Uk is overly sympathetic. Throughout the day we see images of Israelis in Gaza in despair as they have to leave their homes. U know they've occupied the area for 38 years, but u dont hear that as often now! Its portrayed as a very brutal battle. Where Jew verses Jew.... I dont know why isnt the Palestinians shown and their views heard and why it is neccessary for this to happen.
I personally even complained via e mail to the BBC about one of their reports. As after watching the muslim unity convention and listening to Bukhari Asghar is it? I think thats his name i think yes he had a very diverse message from everyone else but it certainly made me think that we should all try to engage ourselves more so rather than simply complain.
Personally if theres anyone who i feel sorry for are those who dot believe in the Zionist regime but have been caught up in all of it. Its such a shame that people have to leave their homes given that some peoples livelyhoods belong there to but i think theirs no choice in the matter. Ariel Sharons msg didnt seem to be tooo optamistic anyway so i do begin to wonder what the future will hold in Palestine.
Inshallah there will be some improvement.
:w:
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Palestinian_Lib
08-18-2005, 08:20 PM
.: Free Palestine:.

format_quote Originally Posted by mary
:sl:
I think the media in the Uk is overly sympathetic. Throughout the day we see images of Israelis in Gaza in despair as they have to leave their homes. U know they've occupied the area for 38 years, but u dont hear that as often now!
And what really gets me mad is that nobody talks about how it was like for the Palestinians to leave in the first place :mad:, that would have been worse becase there were more than just 2 generations of people living there the Palestinians were there for thousands of years while the settlers were there for only 38 **points at TV** if thats how hard it is for the settlers to leave then I can't even imagine the state the Palestinians were in 38 years ago :omg: ....


.: Al Hoorya LiFilisten:.
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minaz
08-18-2005, 08:56 PM
they will pay for it
Actually quite reverse, the Jewish "Gazanians" get $140,000 as compensation - I read that in the newspaper to work
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Palestinian_Lib
08-18-2005, 10:45 PM
.: Free Palestine:.


format_quote Originally Posted by minaz
Actually quite reverse, the Jewish "Gazanians" get $140,000 as compensation - I read that in the newspaper to work
I think what he ment was that Israel will pay for occupying the Land of Palestinians as in "we'll get even", as for the conpensation it wasn't like they conpensated the Palestinians (not that any of us expected it)


.: Al Hoorya LiFilisten:.
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mary
08-18-2005, 11:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hashim
:sl:


This country is built upon zionoist media and zioniist government so there is no point discussing the west media p[ortray of events in GAZA, they are obvously over sympthetic.

Simple as, this is all lies, a bluff to the world they are trying to show they are good because they are moviong out of GAZA, my foot! In this case they should move out all jewish settlers from GAZA and WEST BANK!

The mujahd palestinians will continue to fight the zionoist state terrorists until every inch of palestinian land is liberated!

:w:
:sl:
Yeah i agree wiv ur point, its what we should expect from the media, sad but very true.
:w:
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Ahmed_Yaseen
08-19-2005, 09:55 AM
The settlers' retreat was the theatre of the cynical

There was no 'sensitivity training' when bulldozers went into Rafah

Jonathan Steele
Friday August 19, 2005
The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...552361,00.html


Contrast the world's overwhelming coverage, especially on television, of the departure of Israeli settlers from Gaza with the minimal reporting of larger and more brutal evictions in previous months.
There was no "sensitivity training" for Israeli troops, no buses to drive the expellees away, no generous deadlines to get ready, no compensation packages for their homes, and no promise of government-subsidised alternative housing when the bulldozers went into Rafah.

Within sight of the Gush Katif settlements that have been handled with such kid gloves this week, families in Rafah were usually given a maximum of five minutes' warning before their houses, and life savings, were crushed. Many people did not even have time to go upstairs to collect belongings when the barking of loudspeakers ordered them out, sometimes before dawn. Fleeing with their children in the night, they risked being shot if they turned round or delayed.

As many as 13,350 Palestinians were made homeless in the Gaza Strip in the first 10 months of last year by Israel's giant armour-plated Caterpillar bulldozers - a total that easily exceeds the 8,500 leaving Israeli settlements this week. In Rafah alone, according to figures from the UN relief agency Unrwa, the rate of house demolitions rose from 15 per month in 2002 to 77 per month between January and October 2004.

Parts of Rafah now resemble areas of Kabul or Grozny. Facing Israeli army watchtowers and the concrete wall that runs close to the Gaza Strip's boundary, rows of rubble and ruined homes stretch for hundreds of yards.

The house where I stayed three years ago, which was then one row back from the frontline, has gone. So have three more lines of houses behind it, thanks to Israel's remorseless policy of clearing the zone for "security" reasons even after Ariel Sharon announced his plan to leave Gaza.

Palestinians who visit the ruins or try to use one or two rooms that survived the onslaught risk their lives from Israeli bullets. A warning shot rang out as one homeowner took me on to his roof in broad daylight last month to survey the miserable scene. We quickly came down.

These cruel evictions have of course been reported, and some foreigners who tried to block or record them, such as Rachel Corrie, Tom Hurndall and James Miller, paid with their lives alongside scores of murdered local Palestinians. But coverage was never as comprehensive or intense as this week's removals of Israelis. Sharon wanted the world's media to see the protracted agony of the settlers, so as to make the (spurious) point that if it is hard to get 8,500 to leave Gaza, getting 400,000 to withdraw from the West Bank and east Jerusalem will be impossible. However sincere the settlers' grief is at leaving their homes, for the organisers of the retreat it was theatre of the cynical.

The exaggerated focus on the settlement evictions has some benefits. Those who claim, genuinely or dishonestly, that the world's media are biased in favour of Palestinians had their argument collapse this week. TV viewers around the world have also been exposed to the ugly sight of rampant religious fundamentalism.

As they were dragged off, some Israeli zealots had no shame in minimising the Holocaust, absurdly comparing unarmed Israeli police to the Gestapo. Others used racist insults. "Jews do not expel Jews," they shouted, presumably wanting to imply that only non-Jews do it. They apparently did not realise that most people will see the irony in terms of contemporary rather than historical events - "Jews do not expel Jews ... Jews expel Arabs."

Perhaps the ugliest part of the Israeli settlers' behaviour was their corruption of youth, with parents instigating their children to wrap themselves in prayer shawls and sob or shriek defiance.

No one who spends time in Gaza's Palestinian communities can avoid being saddened by the ubiquitous focus on the gun, which also diverts children from normal growing up. It appears on graffiti everywhere alongside the names and faces of those who died by violence, in suicide attacks or shot down by Israeli fire. Almost every teenage boy aspires to use a Kalashnikov or hand grenade. At a recent wedding, I saw a dancing mother twirl a rifle in both hands above her head like the baton of a majorette.

Trapped in their Israeli-enforced ghetto, Gazans can at least claim that this pervasive and corrupting militarism is the legacy of a decades-long national resistance movement to defend land that belongs to them. Islam is part of the mix, but religion follows the national flag. For many Israeli settlers in Gaza that dynamic was reversed. Religion was their driving force, and they had no individual or national right to the land on which they built their armed camps.

Israel's worst practices from Gaza are likely to be transferred to the West Bank now. Controls over freedoms in the West Bank have been tightened relentlessly in recent years. More roads were closed. More checkpoints sprang up. Walls and fences were extended, in defiance of the international court of justice's ruling that they are illegal. However, even with this creeping oppression, life in the West Bank is not yet as constricted as it was for those in Gaza.

That will probably change. Sharon - one of whose nicknames, appropriately, is Bulldozer - wants to expand the West Bank settlements and demolish more Palestinian homes around Jerusalem. Unless his strategy of unilateralism is blocked, evictions may reach Rafah-like proportions.

The break-up of the settlements will give those in Gaza freedom to move within their narrow enclave, but this benefit may be outweighed by the West Bank's losses. One of the worst places in Gaza used to be the Abu Houli crossing, a tunnel for Palestinian vehicles that went under the road to the Israeli settlements of Gush Katif. At any moment Israeli Land Rovers or tanks would emerge to block the tunnel, leaving Palestinians stranded on what was the only road linking the north and south of Gaza. Pregnant mothers could not get to hospital. Relatives missed weddings. Students failed to reach their colleges to take exams.

Israel intends to build at least 16 gated crossings in the West Bank. It is one thing to have segregated roads - a step that America's Deep South and apartheid South Africa never reached. But to insist on the right to block even those roads that are allocated to Palestinians is grotesque. The West Bank will be sliced into a series of ghettoes that Israeli forces can isolate at will. Whatever the security justification, the effect is to impose collective punishment on every Palestinian.

No one should be surprised if, in the face of such injustice, Palestinian anger and resistance grow.
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mary
08-19-2005, 10:07 AM
given a maximum of five minutes' warning before their houses, and life savings, were crushed.

:sl:
Yeah whateva!! How many months we in the Uk have been aware of this, man it still just comes as a suprise to some! :p
Good post


:w:
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imaad_udeen
08-19-2005, 03:29 PM
It was a token gesture.

What is important is the West Bank and Israel will never make a significant withdrawal from there or Jerusalem.
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minaz
08-19-2005, 06:31 PM
AL QUDS MASJID AL AQSA
which one fo those^^ is the "dome of the rock" one, you know the blue and gold dome one?!?!
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Palestinian_Lib
08-20-2005, 01:39 AM
.: Free Palestine:.


2 things I wanted to mention. firstly, did you know that (this should not come as a surprise) the Israeli govnt is crushing all the settlers homes instead of leaving everything the way it is for Palestinian use. What should come as a surprise (well not really) is that one everything is crushed the rubble is being left for the Palestinans to clean up the thing is that Israel is saying that Palestinians should use the rubble to build their homes and concrete etc.What a BIG help they've been don't you think?!? Now here's the big surprise Israel had the nerve to invite Egypt to the rubble as well.

Secondly I wanted to talk about the points that I mentinioned in the first post.
"Although Israel plans to dismantle its illegal settlements and military bases in the Gaza Strip, it will still maintain a full-scale sea, air, and land siege of the territory. Gaza will remain an open-air prison under Israeli control, preventing Palestinians from exercising their right to freedom of movement and from engaging in economic activity. Under these conditions, Israel will still in effect be occupying the Gaza Strip, according to international law.


Israel's plan to "disengage" from the Gaza Strip does not meet even the minimum expectations articulated by the United States. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice stated that "when the Israelis withdraw from Gaza it cannot be sealed or [an] isolated area, with the Palestinian people closed in after that withdrawal. We are committed to connectivity between Gaza and the West Bank, and we are committed to openness and freedom of movement for the Palestinian people"
So apparently the deal is that Israel hasn't even reached Americas "expections" (not that there will be any consequences), but seriously if they haven't reached Americas expectations then you know that they've sunk really low. Then again Israel has had a ton of practice sinking.

To sum it up basicly what Isreal is doing is 1- Caging the Palestinians then 2- Adding a torturer to the cage (settlers who are allowed to carry weapos and enter a Palestinian persons property and force them off for however long they want) then 3- moving out the torturer. NEWSFLASH! were back to square 1 caging in the Palestinians. :mad:


.: Al Hoorya LiFilisten:.
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libyanhero
08-20-2005, 04:14 AM
Yah sister Palestinian_Lib we understand, its tough situation for those who live there Allahu al Musta3an but you know Israel is always cheap there not gonna give something without first having an interest, Hezbillah in lebonan says that they want to occupy more of the land or even attack lebonan. Allah knows best but Israel wouldn't take Gaza and set up settlements and then give Gaza back and force the people out without having a plan to invade something else so I don't this is possible especially with the israelis there is something behind it all.
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imaad_udeen
08-20-2005, 07:38 PM
Of course the Israelis will destroy the homes. The homes were built by Jews with Jewish money, they are not going to just give all of that to the people they consider their worst enemies.

The Jews will invade the Gaza Strip again as soon as Hamas or some other terrorist group uses it to attack Israelis outside of Gaza.
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nikki
08-20-2005, 10:37 PM
salaam

i tell u this business in gaza disgusts me. i am so glad that the jews r goin frm part, but to tha point they shud nevr hav bin ther 2 begin wit!
i agree brothrs n sistrs that this is nevr gna end, the palestinians wnt ever b liberated til the israelies r taught a thing or two.
masha'Allah it shall happn 1 day, we all pray that our ummah can rise above this n in2 tha light n peace of Allah.... 1 day... 1day.
peace n blessing b upon them all.

(its also evidnt tha west r bein too sympathetic, they supportd the israelies in tha 1st place to my knowledge!)

wa salaams xxx
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Muezzin
08-20-2005, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nikki
(its also evidnt tha west r bein too sympathetic, they supportd the israelies in tha 1st place to my knowledge!)

wa salaams xxx
But if they supported the Israelis in the first place, how can they be too sympathetic? :p
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minaz
08-21-2005, 09:20 AM
Posted by Nikki:
the palestinians wnt ever b liberated til the israelies r taught a thing or two.
Care to elaborate further for us please?
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imaad_udeen
08-22-2005, 03:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hashim
:sl:

Akhee for once can you show some compsssion for your fellow muslim brothers and sisters. I dont know how you can term the mujahideen terrorists and you are obvously labelling Hamas (islamic resistance movement) a terrorist organization, which is totally incorrect. The Isreali's are not a legitamate people and we do not recongnize Isreal as a legitamate nation. There 'homes' are built upon muslim land, simple as.

:w:
:sl:

I do consider Hamas a terrorist organization. If the shoe fits, wear it.

Israel is a legitimate people and their nation has fought for its right to exist.

I support a mutual agreement between both sides that gives each people self-determination and peace.

Both sides have handled the situation badly and both sides have blood on their hands.
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- Qatada -
08-22-2005, 03:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imaad_udeen
:sl:

I do consider Hamas a terrorist organization. If the shoe fits, wear it.

Israel is a legitimate people and their nation has fought for its right to exist.

I support a mutual agreement between both sides that gives each people self-determination and peace.

Both sides have handled the situation badly and both sides have blood on their hands.
Asalam o alikum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh..

bro did u knw the state was a palestinian state.. time passed by and the british or americans took over. they gave the state to the jews because the jews didn't have a nation. this lead to the palestinians getting kicked out of their own homes and the jews took over their homeland.. if u think israel is legitimate now then put yourself in the position of the palestinians.


wasalam o alikum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.
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imaad_udeen
08-22-2005, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aqib
Asalam o alikum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh..

bro did u knw the state was a palestinian state.. time passed by and the british or americans took over. they gave the state to the jews because the jews didn't have a nation. this lead to the palestinians getting kicked out of their own homes and the jews took over their homeland.. if u think israel is legitimate now then put yourself in the position of the palestinians.


wasalam o alikum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.
Palestine was a British possession before the UN mandated it's handover for a Jewish homeland. Much land the Jews had in Palestine and Israel was purchased by the Jews legally, even before Israel was created.

I feel bad for the plight of the Palestinians and they do deserve justice as well.

But both sides have to respect each other, stop killing each other and lerarn to live side by side.
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minaz
08-22-2005, 06:10 PM
Just to add a spanner in the works ( :p ), what do you lot think about Hamas ("terror organisation") entering the elections coming up in January 2006? I think it's a good thing
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Muezzin
08-22-2005, 06:12 PM
I also think it's a good thing. Finally some viable political opposition. It could also mean an end, or at least a curtailment, to the violence.
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minaz
08-22-2005, 06:14 PM
inshaallah - let's hope so
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- Qatada -
08-22-2005, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imaad_udeen
Palestine was a British possession before the UN mandated it's handover for a Jewish homeland. Much land the Jews had in Palestine and Israel was purchased by the Jews legally, even before Israel was created.

I feel bad for the plight of the Palestinians and they do deserve justice as well.

But both sides have to respect each other, stop killing each other and lerarn to live side by side.
Asalam o alikum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh..

... and palestine was a independent state before the british rule. did they have the right to take over? did they have the right to force the people who belonged in that country to evacuate their homez so someone else could live there? someone they never even knew, and that someone was your enemy.. if u was a palestinian, wouldn't u want to re-unite with your family? go back to your home so u could live normally again, so u could play soccer with your younger bro.. but wait, NO. u couldn't play with your younger brother cz he got shot cz he was throwin rocks at one of the zionist tanks. your dad died as a martyr and your sister was caught a prisoner. your mom had died in a bomb explosion.. where do you turn to? didnt u just want a normal life...


wasalam o alikum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.
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imaad_udeen
08-22-2005, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hashim
:sl:

1) Hamas, islamic resistance movement, mujahideen, palestianin mujahid fighters, islamic freedom fighters, these are the brave warrioirs of islaam you are calling a terrorist organization. On what grounds are they terrorist, put forward your evidence. If defending your land and doing jihaad and fighting for justice, peace and islaam is a terrorist act, than yes they are terrorist. May Allaah accept them as defenders of the deen and make their intemtions pure, anf guide, unite, and strenghten them! Ameen.

2) The 'Isreali's are a illegal people, and a nation living on robbed islamic land. The muslim ummah do not recongize them as a legitamate state, and they will be fought until they are destroyed. The nation of 'Isreal' was built upon land which does not belong to them, but palestinain muslims. Justice will be restored, and the mujahideen will not rest until every inch of land is liberated, and Al Aqsa masjid is freeded from the shackles of zionist state terrorism.

:w:
Again, it was someone elses land before it was 'Muslim' so just how far back are we to go to decide what ethnic or religious group owns it?

The fact is that Israel is there, has been for generations now and has the right to live in peace with its neighbors. Until some get this idea through their thick skulls, nothing will get done.

And yes, I am calling them terrorists. If they will kill innocent people intentionally then they are terrorists.
Hamas is notorious for releasing their 'martyr' videos where some Palestinian kid explains exactly why he is about to to some Jewish restaurant and blow himself up.

If they want to be warriors then fight like warriors. Warriors fight like men and don't send some confused young man to massacre people while they are eating dinner or celebrating a birthday or riding a bus or flying in a plane.
]
Fight the Israeli Defense Forces if you want any respect from me and any mercy from God.
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imaad_udeen
08-24-2005, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hashim
:sl:

This notion that Isreal has right to live in peace is the riducolous, unislamic, bizaree statement i have heard from a muslim
So Hashim proves to us again that he is the judge of what IS and IS NOT "Islamic."

, second only to the belief that iraq was 'liberated' by America, again a statement made by you, sub'hann'allaah!
I know you don't like me for what I believe and I am sorry that my beliefs offend you. But I am confident that I am more learned in the situation than you are.

'Isreal' does not have the right to live in peace because even though they have robbed the palestiain land, this is not enough for them, they have brutally occupied bu force and commited inhumane acts of evil, daily atrocities and mass genocide on a huge scale almost on a daily basis. How can we sit back and let the 'Isreali's' live in peace when they are commiting state terrorism and this continued aggression against our brothers and sisters?!!!
Mass genocide on a huge scale?

If the Jews were so intent on wiping out the Palestinians then what has been stopping them all these years?

'Isreal' does have the right to exist when they refuse 6 million palestians the right to return to their homes and land!
PLease don't be naive. And don't make me explkain to you how the politics of the real world works. It might interfere with this little fantasy world you have built up for yourself.

'Isreal' does not have the right to exist when they have more than 8000 palestians in zionist prisons perishing in dispicabale conditions!!!
I'm sure you've seen these conditions yourself. Either that or you read about it on some website. Either way, you're the expert.

'Isreal' does not have right to live in peace when they shoot dead palestian men, rape and beat to death palestinian women and take the palestinian youth and kids to detention centres equal to the concentration camps.
So is it fair to say that Palestinians do not enjoy the right to exist for the atrocities they have committed with homicide bombs or by murdering Olympic athletes, etc

By the way, does playing 'devil's advocate' also revoke my beliefs in God, Hashim? Please advise me on how to think like a good Muslim, oh wise man.

'Isreal' does not have the right to live in peace....because they do not have the right to exist. Wallaahee, they will never be left in peace, the Qassim missiles will keep come raining down, the rockets and the mortars will vontinued to be launched on them, the martydom operations will continue to rock their illegal towns and cities, the gunmen will continue to attack them, the resistance will continue to pond them, and the mujahideen will keep on fighting until they are destroyed, and judtice and peace is restored for the muslims.
That's a great plan.

THEN, when Isreal is destroyed and Palestine has its land back,
You do know that there never was a nation of "Palestinians" don't you?

the jews will have the RIGHT to live in peace and co-existance on muslim land. They will not be persecuted, how they persecuted us, they will not be oppressed and terrorized how thry did to us, they will not be hated and feared like they hatede and feared us, because this is not the way of the mu'meneen of Allaah (most high). And Allaah subhanhu'wa'tallaah knows best.
It's easy to talk war in the comfort of the UK, isn't it?



:w:[/QUOTE]
:confused:
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ChasingRainbows
08-24-2005, 03:19 PM
Salam Alaikum,

Aren't the jews who are being evacuated from Gaza living in illegal settlements to begin with? From what I learnt about this whole issue was All the palestinians were to have was the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which is around 20% of their original land. 80% of the land under Jewish control is uncontested land. Zionist plot was to build illegal settlements and place checkpoints everywhere so as to force the rest of Palestinians out. The Jewish settlements that are being destroyed are not supposed to be there under international agreements perhaps. Anyway I believe the palestinians have a long way to go before they can get their land in its entirety.
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imaad_udeen
08-24-2005, 03:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChasingRainbows
Salam Alaikum,

Aren't the jews who are being evacuated from Gaza living in illegal settlements to begin with? From what I learnt about this whole issue was All the palestinians were to have was the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which is around 20% of their original land. 80% of the land under Jewish control is uncontested land. Zionist plot was to build illegal settlements and place checkpoints everywhere so as to force the rest of Palestinians out. The Jewish settlements that are being destroyed are not supposed to be there under international agreements perhaps. Anyway I believe the palestinians have a long way to go before they can get their land in its entirety.
Certainly the Palestinians have many grievences.

The thing is, though, that all this land was never really owned by any Palestinian authority. It was owned by the Turks, then the British, then when Israel was created they owned Israel proper and the West Bank was controlled by Jordan and Gaza was controlled by Egypt.

So, it is not entirely correct to say all this land 'belongs to the Palestinains' as there are other arguments which say otherwise.

Mind you, I am just attempting to show the other side of the coin. I am not a radical who thinks Israel should be destroyed. I think the two sides should be able to live side by side with each other.

The main case for Israel is that it is a democracy which affords rights to religious minorities, including many 'Israeli Arab' Muslims. This is something which none of it's neighbors share, no democracy.
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minaz
08-24-2005, 08:26 PM
Ok i've got mixed reactions to your post Hashim:
I agree here that Israel is acting totaly different to the methods of a democratic state
If Isreal is a democracy, democracy is a very evil thing
I gathered from this that you don't favour democracy
all other (haraam) systems like democracy have their many faults
mainly becuase they contradict tawheed, the basis for the purpose of life
Sorry could you explain further please, including examples if you can :)
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Labaik Ya Allah
08-24-2005, 08:57 PM
jus fill me in i cant read all the other posts

what is this topic about
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czgibson
08-24-2005, 09:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hashim
Verily if Isreal is a democracy than democracy is a cousin of dictatorship and a evil system which revolves around state terrorism. If this is democracy, may Allaah (swt) truly guide them. Ameen.
Do you think this is true of all democracies?

Peace
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Labaik Ya Allah
08-24-2005, 09:12 PM
dont no what democracy means dont pay attention to that kinda of stuff in skool
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czgibson
08-24-2005, 09:19 PM
You're obviously not the person to ask then.
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Labaik Ya Allah
08-24-2005, 09:21 PM
i no that
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Labaik Ya Allah
08-24-2005, 10:58 PM
man i jus dont no what to say there bro
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minaz
08-25-2005, 06:50 PM
Ok Hash I see your point (although I disagree), so does living in a democratic society mean that one is committing a haraam act?
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czgibson
08-25-2005, 08:43 PM
Greetings Hashim,
format_quote Originally Posted by Hashim
What i meant was that imaad said that Isreal is a democacy, so i am saying if this is true than democracy must be a evil thing.
I gathered you were talking about Israel, but don't you see what a dangerous argument can be made with logic like that above?

Do you really think all democracies are like Israel? Beware of making generalisations.

The main arguments you've used to denigrate democracy rely on the argument from authority - along the lines of "read this if you don't believe me; it's all explained there; someone very clever wrote this book, so it's bound to be true." It's one of the most common fallacies in argument. You must present your own reasons - why does democracy seem bad to you? Is it because of your own ideas or because of something you've been told?

Peace
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imaad_udeen
08-25-2005, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Labaik Ya Allah
dont no what democracy means dont pay attention to that kinda of stuff in skool
:zip:
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ChasingRainbows
08-26-2005, 01:30 AM
Salam Alaikum,

So, it is not entirely correct to say all this land 'belongs to the Palestinains' as there are other arguments which say otherwise.
Palestine belongs to the Turks, English and the Isrealis like Canada, America, and Australia belong to the white man and not the aboriginals. Palestine belongs to the palestinians because they are the people who lived there before it was even promised to Moses, go look it up in the old testament. Ask the arabs from the peninsula and they will tell the 'shamis' are not real arabs. How can the Israelis move there under the pretext that this the land promised to them in their bible when the world hasn't met this central authority figure from God to re-affirm the promise or to even lead them there? I read in the newspapers that some of the jews who were being forced out with the crocodile tears were actually born and raised in New York, Toronto etc. 'my land, my land' yeah and pigs fly. Why don't they speak the truth and say that they are sick and tired of being gypsies. I'm afraid in a democratic society Israel's living peacefully side by side with the people who own the land is something that would be decided by the Palestinians themselves but there is no democracy only hostile takeovers and oppression day in and day out.
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Ahmed_Yaseen
08-30-2005, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imaad_udeen
The fact is that Israel is there, has been for generations now and has the right to live in peace with its neighbors. Until some get this idea through their thick skulls, nothing will get done.
Imaad,

Can you let me know what your home address is? I could then invade your home and send you to live in the smallest room in the house. And if you want to use the toilet/bathroom or if you want to go out, you will have to seek my permission first. I will 'control the borders' and place sort of 'checkpoints' in the house. And because I will have settled there, I have the 'right to exist' (to borrow your words).

What do you think Imaad?

:w:
Reply

imaad_udeen
08-30-2005, 11:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed_Yaseen
Imaad,

Can you let me know what your home address is? I could then invade your home and send you to live in the smallest room in the house. And if you want to use the toilet/bathroom or if you want to go out, you will have to seek my permission first. I will 'control the borders' and place sort of 'checkpoints' in the house. And because I will have settled there, I have the 'right to exist' (to borrow your words).

What do you think Imaad?

:w:
I'd fight back, of course.

But I wouldn't go out of my way to murder your cousin while he's eating pizza. Meaning your assualt on me in no way justifies me assaulting other members of your family.

Nothing Israel does justifies the terrorism that murders its innocents.

Nothing Palestine does justifies Israeli terrorism murdering their innocents.

The point of my post was, Israel is not going to be destroyed, it won't happen in our lifetime. Our best chance is to make a peace which is agreeable to both sides and then begin to learn to live together.

This also probaby won't happen in our lifetime.

But generations of war has done nothing but make Israel stronger. Strong to the point that it's neighboring nations are scared of it (syria) or have made peace with it (Egypt-Jordan)

The Palestinians cannot destroy Israel by themselves and they cannot destroy Israel with the help of all the neighboring Arab countries.

Peace is the only option for the Palestinians at this point, it is their strongest and best weapon.

MHO
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- Qatada -
08-31-2005, 05:35 PM
:sl: warahmatulahi wabarakatuh..

all praise is due to Allah (swt) and his beloved prophet (salallahu alahi hi wasalam) and the prophet (salallahu alai hi wasalam)'s family and all who follow them.

format_quote Originally Posted by imaad_udeen
Israel is not going to be destroyed, it won't happen in our lifetime.
Allah (swt) knows best...

format_quote Originally Posted by imaad_udeen
Our best chance is to make a peace which is agreeable to both sides and then begin to learn to live together.
thats true. but think about it.. even if the governments said 'we will make peace'. they've said that throughout the decades but it never works, theres always someone who wants revenge for his dead brother or even his mother who might be captured as a prisoner.

sahih bukhari: volume 4, book 53, number 391:

narrated 'abdullah bin 'amr:

the prophet (salallahu alai hi wasalam) said, "whoever killed a person having a treaty with the muslims, shall not smell the smell of paradise though its smell is perceived from a distance of forty years."


but the israelis dont have a limit either, they want revenge too. so if anyone needs to make peace it should be both sides, the muslims should because its not allowed to kill anyone from the opposition within a treaty. but what limits do the israelis have?

regarding the palestinians blowing themselves up killing innocent people - thats not allowed in islam anyway. so yeah that is wrong.. (we've discussed this topic before in another thread.)

wasalam o alikum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh..
Reply

syedhs
09-02-2005, 06:17 AM
:sl:

As for Israel to be destroyed in our lifetime.. yes it is best left to Allah as He knows best..

As for peace agreement with Israel..no it wouldn't happen unless there is a justice in the agreement. Actually if you have been listening.. reading.. quite many articles produced by west boast the Israeli's supremacy over Arab/Palestine that in the end.. we will have to beg them for mercy before it is too late (ie we got destroyed).

And.. even the one sided agreement ever been inked by two parties.. it is assured that it will not stop there.. I have this feeling that they will not stop until we Muslim look to Islam as merely praying and fasting..

IMO.. Israel country should cease to exist. They are not merely preventing us from visiting Masjidul Aqsa or something like that- it is much bigger than that. It is a hard-to-swallow fact that they (Jew) is currently controlling the world and majority of them does support Zionism. Jews who oppose Zionism with the understanding of Israel shouldn't be founded without Messiah in the first place are considered as heretical in their society..

Dont take this as justifcation of hatred toward Jew.. but maybe the least we can do is to have this knowledge and with that, we can at least dont resort as a pathetic pawn in this world.
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