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Zman
06-17-2007, 04:03 PM
:sl:/Peace To All


Islam Got It First

The Tiling In Medieval Islamic Architecture Turns Out To Embody A Mathematical Insight That Westerners Thought They Had Discovered Only 30 Years Ago.


By Mary Carmichael
Newsweek International
March 19, 2007 Issue
MSNBC

... In stretches of intricate tiling on several 500-year-old Islamic buildings, Peter Lu and Paul Steinhardt wrote, they'd spotted a large fragment of a mathematical pattern that was unknown to Western science until the 1970s.

Islam gave the world algebra, from the Arabic al-jabr, a term referring to a basic equation. But this pattern is far from basic; it comes from much higher math.

"The ridiculous thing is, this pattern has been staring Westerners in the face all this time," says Keith Critchlow, author of the book "Islamic Patterns." "We simply haven't been able to read it."

Now that we can, though, it is serving as a startling indication of how accomplished medieval-era Muslims may have been.

No one knows what the architects of the complex pattern in the tiles named it a half millennium ago. Today, scientists call it a "quasiperiodic crystal with forbidden symmetry." It's forbidden not for any religious reason, of course, but because at first glance it appears impossible to construct.

Take a pattern of triangular tiles, rotate it one third the way around, and the resulting pattern is identical. The same goes for rectangular tiles (which look the same rotated one fourth the way around) or hexagonal tiles (one sixth the way around). But a grid made purely of pentagons simply can't exist. The five-sided shapes don't fit together without leaving gaps, and there's no way to put them in a pattern that looks the same when turned one fifth the way around.

The breakthrough that took the "forbidden" out of that "forbidden symmetry" was to use two shapes, not one, to build a fivefold-symmetrical grid. In 1973, having given up on pentagons, mathematician Sir Roger Penrose designed a fivefold pattern with shapes he called "kites" and "darts."

He was the first Westerner (and at the time, he thought, the first person) to do so, and his creation turned out to have fascinating mathematical properties. Any given fragment of it, containing a finite number of kites and darts, could be infinitely divided into a never-repeating pattern of smaller kites and darts.

As the number of small shapes in the pattern increased, the ratio of kites to darts approached the "golden ratio," a number practically sacred to mathematicians. Discovered by Pythagoras, the golden ratio is irrational, which means it extends to an infinite number of decimal places. (The actual number is 1.618033989 ... and so on.)

It is linked to the famous Fibonacci sequence and cited in the writings of astronomer Johannes Kepler and, yes, Leonardo da Vinci. It is also found at the atomic level. In the 1980s, Steinhardt, a physicist at Princeton, armed with Penrose's insight, found that some chemicals had their atoms arranged in a "quasicrystalline" shape like that of the fivefold grid.

Medieval Muslims apparently figured out at least some of this math. On the wall of one shrine in Iran, Lu found, two types of large tiles are divided into smaller tiles of the same shapes, in numbers that approximate the golden ratio..

"The human creation was imitating, in abstract fashion, the wondrous creation of God," says Gulru Necipoglu, a professor of Islamic art at Harvard. Some geometric patterns, for instance, evoked the planets and stars. And throughout the medieval era and onwards, says Steinhardt, Muslims "were fascinated by fivefold symmetry and were always trying to incorporate it into their designs. Where the patterns ended up with gaps, they would cleverly place a door or a windowsill there so you couldn't tell." In the buildings examined by Lu, they succeeded.

Although the Penrose-patterned tiles date to the 14th and 15th centuries, the same shapes of tiles "were used all over the medieval Islamic world to generate all sorts of patterns" for hundreds of years before and after that, says Lu. The Topkapi scroll, a Persian artifact from the late 15th or early 16th century, lists many such designs.

There may also be clues to ancient Muslims' mathematical prowess in other tiling on mosques in Iran and Turkey, madrassas in Baghdad and shrines in Afghanistan and India. They would fit nicely into the increasingly common image of the medieval Islamic world as an advanced society.

Scholars now know that Muslims of that era could solve equations with variables to the power of 3 and above, which are harder than the classic quadratic "x2" ones fundamental to algebra.

They also had mechanical "computers" and knew considerably more about medicine and astronomy than Europeans of the time.
What has not yet been found, unfortunately, is any record of how early Muslims designed the fivefold patterns and conceptualized the math lurking in them, since few Muslim scholars wrote down their discoveries for wide dissemination.

"You absolutely do not have to understand the higher math to be able to do it," says David Salesin, a computer scientist at the University of Washington. Lu agrees that there's no need to project a modern understanding of quasicrystals onto an ancient culture—but he also says the pattern design was no accident.

"No matter how it was constructed," he adds, "it's a stunning achievement." Particularly now that the world has eyes to see it.

© 2007 Newsweek, Inc.

Source:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17553752/site/newsweek/
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Sinbad
06-17-2007, 04:06 PM
Unce again why islamic? Those buildings have sassanid architecture. Bagdad was a persian city.

How do you know Algebra was a muslim? Al razi the creator of modern medecin openly critizesed Islam.
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- Qatada -
06-17-2007, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
Bagdad was a persian city.

Wasn't Baghdad a city created by the Muslim rule of the Bani Abbaas? :?
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Sinbad
06-17-2007, 04:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Wasn't Baghdad a city created by the Muslim rule of the Bani Abbaas? :?
Not realy, they just changed the name and added walls. It was still a city before.
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Zman
06-17-2007, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
Unce again why islamic?

We're allowed to be proud of our heritage?

Those buildings have sassanid architecture.

And, they embraced Islam.

Bagdad was a persian city.
Baghdad is a Muslim city. I believe ancient Iraq was inhabited by Arabs who were loyal to the Persian Empire.
How do you know Algebra was a muslim?
Because it was named after Jaber Ibn Hayan, who was a Muslim.
Al razi the creator of modern medecin.
He was also, Muslim...
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Sinbad
06-17-2007, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
We're allowed to be proud of our heritage?
sure you can, but is it yours?

format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
[i]And, they embraced Islam.
Still not islamic architecture

format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
[i]Baghdad is a Muslim city. I believe ancient Iraq was inhabited by Arabs who were loyal to the Persian Empire.
No that was in the arabian dessert, before muhammed there where arab tribes loyal yes, the coastlines where inhabited by persians. It isnt untill recent years arabs started to live by the coast, before that they where nomads living of sheep meat.

Its like saying the ancient egyptians where arabs.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
[i]Because it was named after Jaber Ibn Hayan, who was a Muslim.
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
[i]He was also, Muslim...
No he was not. He was an atheist. You can not take people from a certain time and place and excpekt them all to belive this and that. Darwin the evolutionist belived in God.
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- Qatada -
06-17-2007, 05:44 PM
If you're talking about Al Raazi' - then he made a public repentance near the end of his life. He's the one well known for his famous tafsir/explanation of Qur'an which is HUGE (i.e. 10,000 explanations of part of surah fatihah - chapter 1 of Qur'an alone.) And Allaah knows best.
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Sinbad
06-17-2007, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
If you're talking about Al Raazi' - then he made a public repentance near the end of his life. He's the one well known for his famous tafsir/explanation of Qur'an which is HUGE (i.e. 10,000 explanations of part of surah fatihah - chapter 1 of Qur'an alone.) And Allaah knows best.
I might do that as well, when life is over I dont want to risk going to hell.:D

Another thing about the iraqis being arabs, who is an arab? If you ask a pan arabist, its evereyone from Morrocco to Yemen. If you ask a Tunisian if he is an arab he will get angry, if you ask a syrian if he is an arab he will get angry.

Nobody is realy an arab escept for the nomads of the arabian island.

But then we got language, people speaking arabic being arabs, then persians are more arabs than Tunisians,
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- Qatada -
06-17-2007, 06:03 PM
Or maybe you'll die before you make the decision. ^ anyway, upto you. There's no compulsion in religion, and i won't be questioned about you, you won't be questioned about me - we'll only be accountable for our ownselves. And no-one will be dealt with unjustly, but the truthful will benefit from their truth and those who disbelieve will have nothing but regret, and there will be no turning back on that day.



Peace.
Reply

barney
06-17-2007, 06:04 PM
Congatulations on the discovery.

Nobody can argue that, once upon a time, the Ancient Greek, Persian and Arabian intellectuals were doing great things academically.

Al Jebr did some good work developing Eculid the Greeks concepts of 300BC. without them both, we wouldnt have what we have today.
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Amadeus85
06-18-2007, 01:37 AM
Its just sad thing that after some successes and achievments in science in early medieval times, muslim scientists have gone in deep coma for the next hundreds of years.
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جوري
06-18-2007, 02:35 AM
One of the great things that has always intrigued me was a water clock that marked the hours by dropping bronze balls into a bowl, as mechanical knights — one for each hour — emerged from little doors which shut behind them. This along with other presents were unprecedented in Western Europe and may have influenced Carolingian art. That clock was given by the Caliph Harun's Ar-Rashid as a gift to Charlemagne along with other goodies. Once Charlemagne's knights saw it, they stepped back affright thinking it sorcery --
I must have visited all the museums of the world looking for that clock, and couldn't find it anywhere.. just absolutely would love to have a look at it. A shame many Muslims don't even know their own history. But I feel a spirit of change in the Muslim world insha'Allah.. we will rise again!

:w:
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 02:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
One of the great things that has always intrigued me was a water clock that marked the hours by dropping bronze balls into a bowl, as mechanical knights — one for each hour — emerged from little doors which shut behind them. This along with other presents were unprecedented in Western Europe and may have influenced Carolingian art. That clock was given by the Caliph Harun's Ar-Rashid as a gift to Charlemagne along with other goodies. Once Charlemagne's knights saw it, they stepped back affright thinking it sorcery --
I must have visited all the museums of the world looking for that clock, and couldn't find it anywhere.. just absolutely would love to have a look at it. A shame many Muslims don't even know their own history. But I feel a spirit of change in the Muslim world insha'Allah.. we will rise again!

:w:
Once again not islamic.

Water clocks, along with the sundials, are possibly the oldest time-measuring instruments, with the only exceptions being the gnomon and day-counting tally stick.[1] Given their great antiquity, where and when they first existed are not known and perhaps unknowable. The simplest form of water clocks, the bowl-shaped outflow type, are known to have existed in Babylon and in Egypt around the 16th century B.C. Other regions of the world, including India and China, also have early evidence of water clocks but the earliest dates are less certain. Some authors, however, write about water clocks appearing as early as 4000 BC.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_clock


Look people, a lot of great things came from great people.

But you can not put them with religion. It has nothing to do with religion. You can not say christian inventions, ancient greek gods inventions, muslim inventions et c.
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جوري
06-18-2007, 03:02 AM
Sinbad.. you are certainly free to believe what you wish.. my father has his doctorate in History and political science, if there is one thing I know and grew up with (aside from medicine) it is my history.. when I was in undergrad the professor had me teach for 2 weeks and a half on islam, islamic art and architecture, he didn't complain, nor protest, neither did the students-- So you can sing the praises of whomever, clap to whomever, be overjoyed with whomever.. it is Islamic architecture that still draws people to Spain, and at the bottom of everything is a Muslim scientist, much to the dismay of the ignorant... I would suggest to you this book instead of wikpidia http://www.1001inventions.com/index....tSectionID=309
been out of stock for some time in amazon, but am sure, they will restock. If you have beef with the above, I suggest you address the historians, don't bother me with it!
peace!
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thirdwatch512
06-18-2007, 03:04 AM
like others have said.. how is this islamic culture?

just because the person who might have professed the islamic faith was the one who discovered it, that doesn't mean that islam is the reason for it..

if that's the case.. go Jews!! albert einstein was a Jew!! wOoOhOo!
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جوري
06-18-2007, 03:07 AM
BTW, I come from a country that boasts a great civilization, a region so rich, that the "great west" would dissolve, from its early achievements a place that houses your fallen shah even when your own country, and the U.S. wouldn't have him! but I am proud of nothing more than I am of My Islamic history. Which ever way I slice it, I am proud of my heritage and the people who gave up polytheism and embraced Islam only to contribute more great things!
peace!
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 03:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Sinbad.. you are certainly free to believe what you wish.. my father has his doctorate in History and political science, if there is one thing I know and grew up with (aside from medicine) it is my history.. when I was in undergrad the professor had me teach for 2 weeks and a half on islam, islamic art and architecture, he didn't complain, nor protest, neither did the students-- So you can sing the praises of whomever, clap to whomever, be overjoyed with whomever.. it is Islamic architecture that still draws people to Spain, and at the bottom of everything is a Muslim scientist, much to the dismay of the ignorant... I would suggest to you this book instead of wikpidia http://www.1001inventions.com/index....tSectionID=309
been out of stock for some time in amazon, but am sure, they will restock. If you have beef with the above, I suggest you address the historians, don't bother me with it!
peace!
Someone gave a good example, is the theory of relativity a judaistic sciense? Is gravity a christian sciense, christian heritage? Is gun Powder a taoistik? No its not.

Faith has nothing to do with inventions and sciense.

Did you study islamic art and history for some weeks? It dosent matter, i the 60s they teached that the moon came from the sea, they teached that diffrent races have diffrent values.

Did they lie? No they just spinned it, you can affect the teachings by taking stuff out.

I still say there is no such thing as islamic art, if it was then why did it exist before islam, and most importantly, why isnt that art specified in the quaran?
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جوري
06-18-2007, 03:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
like others have said.. how is this islamic culture?

just because the person who might have professed the islamic faith was the one who discovered it, that doesn't mean that islam is the reason for it..

if that's the case.. go Jews!! albert einstein was a Jew!! wOoOhOo!
Indeed many Jews have circulating their list of celebrated scientist in the form of Noble prize winners etc in effort to show how much more advanced they are than the rest of the world.. be that as it may I clearly remember not two weeks ago, an atheist used an Einstein quote to cement his point, that there is no G-D, in fact he (Einstein) was a self-professed atheist... an awful shame still that you'd be listing a Jewish achievement instead of one of your own? for instance you might have mentioned how St. Thomas Aquinas liked to surround himself by Muslim scholars, so he could learn from them... really go read before you write!

When you are Muslim and a scientist, that is your identity. Every Muslim I know who has a doctorate of some sort professes that he is a Muslim not really attributing his science to his home town or birth place rather his religion, the blessings of the religion that have propelled him/her forward... And Indeed in Islam we are urged to pursue knowledge from the cradle to the grave, as far as china if need be as is stated by our beloved prophet Mohammed PBUH!

peace!
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جوري
06-18-2007, 03:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
Someone gave a good example, is the theory of relativity a judaistic sciense? Is gravity a christian sciense, christian heritage? Is gun Powder a taoistik? No its not.

Faith has nothing to do with inventions and sciense.

Did you study islamic art and history for some weeks? It dosent matter, i the 60s they teached that the moon came from the sea, they teached that diffrent races have diffrent values.

Did they lie? No they just spinned it, you can affect the teachings by taking stuff out.

I still say there is no such thing as islamic art, if it was then why did it exist before islam, and most importantly, why isnt that art specified in the quaran?
I have already replied to him, I have nothing further on the subject to impart, though you and he are free to express as clangorously as you like, your opinion..
by the way-- I don't know what "teached" means, perhaps therein lies the problem? you are not very well schooled as you should be, and hence it reflects in your opinions!

peace!
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Keltoi
06-18-2007, 03:27 AM
All great civilizations have made technological and scientific advances. However, it had more to do with individuals, not a society or a religion. If you want to praise people for their discoveries, praise the individual, not the collective they happened to be a part of.
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جوري
06-18-2007, 03:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
All great civilizations have made technological and scientific advances. However, it had more to do with individuals, not a society or a religion. If you want to praise people for their discoveries, praise the individual, not the collective they happened to be a part of.
I praise the religion that instead of letting its folks dwell in medieval darkness (Europe) --mandates that they should seek knowledge. And like I stated before, every Muslim scientist I know prefers to be called a Muslim, rather than Tunisian, or Egyptian, or Turkish, or whatever... Again, Islam is our identity, and such were the contributions that happened under the Muslim empire so it is Islamic heritage and achievement!
You are certainly free to single them out by name!
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 03:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I have already replied to him, I have nothing further on the subject to impart, though you and he are free to express as clangorously as you like, your opinion..
by the way-- I don't know what "teached" means, perhaps therein lies the problem? you are not very well schooled as you should be, and hence it reflects in your opinions!

peace!
I might need an example. The ancient Greece.

The West glorifys it and makes it the father of all sciense. Pythagoras theorem is named after pythagoras, thats what school teaches right?

school is wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythago...heorem#History
the indians and chinese had it before,

Does school lie? No, Pythagoras used that method, but it was under spin.

So once again, your islamic "studies" contradict facts. If you learned it from a school dosent change it one bit.
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جوري
06-18-2007, 03:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
I might need an example. The ancient Greece.

The West glorifys it and makes it the father of all sciense. Pythagoras theorem is named after pythagoras, thats what school teaches right?

school is wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythago...heorem#History
the indians and chinese had it before,

Does school lie? No, Pythagoras used that method, but it was under spin.

So once again, your islamic "studies" contradict facts. If you learned it from a school dosent change it one bit.
????? I don't understand what you are trying to say or how it relates to the topic...

Peace!
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Keltoi
06-18-2007, 03:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
I might need an example. The ancient Greece.

The West glorifys it and makes it the father of all sciense. Pythagoras theorem is named after pythagoras, thats what school teaches right?

school is wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythago...heorem#History
the indians and chinese had it before,

Does school lie? No, Pythagoras used that method, but it was under spin.

So once again, your islamic "studies" contradict facts. If you learned it from a school dosent change it one bit.
You must also keep in mind that is possible for two people to discover the same thing independent of any interaction.
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 03:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
????? I don't understand what you are trying to say or how it relates to the topic...

Peace!
Im going to go straight forward, learning something from school dosent make it true. All school says isnt true.

So you have studied islamic arts and history, dosent mean you have gotten all the right facts.

Im not saying school is all bull, im saying that you cant trust it to 100%
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جوري
06-18-2007, 03:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
Im going to go straight forward, learning something from school dosent make it true. All school says isnt true.

So you have studied islamic arts and history, dosent mean you have gotten all the right facts.

Im not saying school is all bull, im saying that you cant trust it to 100%
Ok!
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 03:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
You must also keep in mind that is possible for two people to discover the same thing independent of any interaction.
Yes but the world was connected, extremly connected.

orn on the island of Samos (a Greek island in the Eastern Aegean), off the coast of Asia Minor. He was born to Pythais (his mother, a native of Samos) and Mnesarchus (his father, a Phoenician merchant from Tyre). As a young man, he left his native city for Croton, Calabria, in Southern Italy, to escape the tyrannical government of Polycrates. According to Iamblichus, Thales, impressed with his abilities, advised Pythagoras to head to Memphis in Egypt and study with the priests there who were renowned for their wisdom

physics, which resonate well with the ideas they attributed to Pythagoras. This attribution has stuck, down the centuries up to modern times. [4] The earliest known mention of Pythagoras's name in connection with the theorem occurred five centuries after his death, in the writings of Cicero and Plutarch. There are many ancient references to the facts stated in the Pythagorean theorem; Egyptian and Chinese tablets and writings show that they knew the theore

The Sassanid Persians asked china for help when they where overruned by Romans, arabs, Turks, and balûchs.

The arab had universities with chinese and europeans.

So the world was still a very connected place.

So once again, school shouldnt be teachin us biased spinned lies.
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Keltoi
06-18-2007, 04:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
Yes but the world was connected, extremly connected.

orn on the island of Samos (a Greek island in the Eastern Aegean), off the coast of Asia Minor. He was born to Pythais (his mother, a native of Samos) and Mnesarchus (his father, a Phoenician merchant from Tyre). As a young man, he left his native city for Croton, Calabria, in Southern Italy, to escape the tyrannical government of Polycrates. According to Iamblichus, Thales, impressed with his abilities, advised Pythagoras to head to Memphis in Egypt and study with the priests there who were renowned for their wisdom

physics, which resonate well with the ideas they attributed to Pythagoras. This attribution has stuck, down the centuries up to modern times. [4] The earliest known mention of Pythagoras's name in connection with the theorem occurred five centuries after his death, in the writings of Cicero and Plutarch. There are many ancient references to the facts stated in the Pythagorean theorem; Egyptian and Chinese tablets and writings show that they knew the theore

The Sassanid Persians asked china for help when they where overruned by Romans, arabs, Turks, and balûchs.

The arab had universities with chinese and europeans.

So the world was still a very connected place.

So once again, school shouldnt be teachin us biased spinned lies.
I probably should have specified that I wasn't referring to the "Pythagorean theorem", but more about discoveries in general. I agree that schools tend to teach what they were taught, and many times what they are taught isn't necessarily unvarnished truth. However, in many cases discoveries aren't the sole property of one particular individual. The chronology of the camera is a good example. Just for the sake of an analogy, say an old man in China notices that when he throws a rock it doesn't float out into space..."Wow", he thinks, "There must be some force that makes things fall back to earth". He's a farmer, so he goes on with his life and doesn't think about it anymore. Then a European upstart sees an apple fall to earth and thinks "Wow, what an epiphany, there must be an invisible force that holds objects down, I think I will write a scientific theory about it." This European upstart becames famous for "discovering" the theory of gravity. Many times it has more to do with the position and the standing of a particular individual as to whether they are recognized. Published works or any mention of their discovery in a published work often makes the difference between who gets mentioned and who doesn't.
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thirdwatch512
06-18-2007, 05:22 AM
you want to know who invented to college system? the Catholic Church

you want to know who created the idea of hospitals? The Catholic Church

you want to know who invented the vehicle? a Christian
the computer? a Jew

internet - a Christian
tv - Chrsitian
radio - Christian
the oven? - Christian
washing machine? - Christian

etc. etc.

so just ebcause someone affiliates theirselves with one religion, that does not mean that it was because of that religion that made them be so successful. and i think that's the point that we (non muslims) are trying to get across.
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جوري
06-18-2007, 05:29 AM
ummmm No!
in fact one of the oldest universities in the world lies in Egypt , Al-Azhar is the world's oldest university! , and from it were the adaptation of such places as Harvard or yale.. Mesopotamia and eastern regions in general, were the birth place of civilization, Any history book will attest to the same-- I am going to disengage myself from this topic, because it is useless, save for the first poster-- but falsehood and rewriting of history is just simply not acceptable!
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barney
06-18-2007, 05:31 AM
Just to say on the debate.
Sure Algebra, Arabic Numerals and all the rest are not Islamic inventions.
They are inventions that were discovered whilst Islam was at it's height.So you could say that the rule of Islam allowed creativity at that time to flourish.

The T.V , computor and stuff are not christian invention's, theyre western inventions.

These are Christian Inventions: The Godpod
http://ship-of-fools.com/Gadgets/Devotional/145.html
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جوري
06-18-2007, 05:37 AM
interesting case of cause and effect... did the old lady break her bones because she fell? or were they already brittle on the account she suffered osteoporosis and the fall had nothing to do with it at all? Hmmmmmn
We'll just call it Islamic civilization in the sciences, Arts and architecture, because Islam mandated and encouraged learning!
.. you can call it what you want on your own free time!

peace!
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NoName55
06-18-2007, 03:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Just to say on the debate.
Sure Algebra, Arabic Numerals and all the rest are not Islamic inventions.
They are inventions that were discovered whilst Islam was at it's height.So you could say that the rule of Islam allowed creativity at that time to flourish.

The T.V , computor and stuff are not christian invention's, theyre western inventions.

These are Christian Inventions: The Godpod
http://ship-of-fools.com/Gadgets/Devotional/145.html

This is a Islamic Invention: The Burkcical
http://sugiero.blogspot.com/2007/05/...c-bicycle.html
ah! yet more links to "pro Islam sites"

its getting "better and better"
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barney
06-18-2007, 03:43 PM
Not too much pro-islam about it. More a anti-everything rant site.

Anyway, the Burkcicle is a really ingenious invention. The designer said it would prevent the veiwing of provocative movement caused by the action of cycling.

So all-round a winner! Women can cycle away in complete modesty!
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Philosopher
06-18-2007, 03:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
Unce again why islamic? Those buildings have sassanid architecture. Bagdad was a persian city.

How do you know Algebra was a muslim? Al razi the creator of modern medecin openly critizesed Islam.
No, Al Razi studied under prominent Muslim scholars (ex. Tabari), and all biographies about him claim he was Muslim.

Here is more about him:
http://www.islamicmedicine.org/alrazi3.htm
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جوري
06-18-2007, 04:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
ah! yet more links to "pro Islam sites"

its getting "better and better"
it is really just a case of the simpleton kaffir, who fancies himself a cognoscente .. when it comes to a Muslim the only thing synonymous with you is a terrorist, even if you come from Zimbabwe, or Waikiki, but not a Muslim and a scientist in the same sentence.. Never... I just let them be now and disengage myself from getting into circuitous humbug.
:w:
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Philosopher
No, Al Razi studied under prominent Muslim scholars (ex. Tabari), and all biographies about him claim he was Muslim.

Here is more about him:
http://www.islamicmedicine.org/alrazi3.htm
I will not even go into that site, "islamicmedecine", what does medecine got to do with a religion? nothing.

And no he was not a muslim, and Galileo was not a christian. If you said otherwise to frankly you would get beheaded.
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NoName55
06-18-2007, 04:54 PM
Is that you playing with fire again repeating same old mantra over and over? Br. Fi already told you about Al Razi

Insulting Muslims is a hobby?

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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 05:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
Is that you playing with fire again repeating same old mantra over and over? Br. Fi already told you about Al Razi

Insulting Muslims is a hobby?

I do not insult muslims, How can you just mix religion with sciense? Was the gun powder a taoistic invension? was the television a christian invention? It has nothing to do with the one and other.

http://www.themodernword.com/contests/003_razi.html

The Lost Documents of Abu Bakr Al-Razi, “The Atheist”

I do not say that islam is the root of all evil, all I am saying is STOP CALLNG IT MUSLIM OR ISLAMIC! It has nothing to do with that!
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Amadeus85
06-18-2007, 05:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I praise the religion that instead of letting its folks dwell in medieval darkness (Europe) --mandates that they should seek knowledge.
But since early medieval some time passed dont you think? And those european barbarians improved themselves very much and they created the fundaments of the modern world.
For example, everything that you use now (computer, mp3 player, car, toothpaste, cd, tv, radio, camera,internet etc etc..) was invented by the western people. In the last 500 years muslim scients just didnt exist.
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3isha
06-18-2007, 05:19 PM
u just gotta except that islam got it first, espeacially in maths n science
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 3isha
u just gotta except that islam got it first, espeacially in maths n science
No India got it first, tere is an iron pillar in India that has pi and all those maths that came later on. India is the oldest.

And once again islam destroyed more sciense that was created during islamic times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

The library of Alexandria was a great center of sciense, many islamic invension like the water clock survived the islamic invasion and became islamic invensions.
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Amadeus85
06-18-2007, 05:25 PM
Yes it is just like the case with Aristotle philosophy, it wasnt invention by muslims, but muslims used it.
But still no one mentions about muslim science in the last 500 years. I wonder why ..?
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Yes it is just like the case with Aristotle philosophy, it wasnt invention by muslims, but muslims used it.
But still no one mentions about muslim science in the last 500 years. I wonder why ..?
The greek knowledge was burried so it survived the early years of islam. When they burned down and detroyed and killed a lot.
The egyptian knowledge was much more advenced, they could build things like pyramids that people today cant.

They didnt survive islam, but some smaller things did survive and became islamic.
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جوري
06-18-2007, 05:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
But since early medieval some time passed dont you think? And those european barbarians improved themselves very much and they created the fundaments of the modern world.
For example, everything that you use now (computer, mp3 player, car, toothpaste, cd, tv, radio, camera,internet etc etc..) was invented by the western people. In the last 500 years muslim scients just didnt exist.
I find you rather sophomoric and ill read, rather than get into another one of those with you, I'll let you blather to your heart's content... BTW, we have been brushing our teeth for centuries with what is called a (siwak) a natural toothbrush made from the twigs of the Salvadora persica tree, and that is from the time of the prophet if not even before hand-- while your priests were boasting going for years without a bath...
go stick your silly little examples in the children's section!
BTW just recently a Muslim scientist invented a new charcoal filter that was brilliant as well as ergonomical , and my own chemistry professor from undergraduate whose name was Dr. Izzedeen, an Algerian (Muslim) invented the "smokeless" cigarette.. countless whose names go unmentioned or unnoticed. Tell me though, what have you contributed to science lately, that you come here with that pectus carinatum?
peace!
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Amadeus85
06-18-2007, 05:38 PM
Tell me though, what have you contributed to science lately, that you come here with that pectus carinatum?
peace!
I personally didnt created anything, as i am not a scientist, but the western civilization ( based on christian religion, greek philosophy and roman law) that i belong to , dominates since early medieval times and everyone else is using our inventions.

Peace.
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جوري
06-18-2007, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
The greek knowledge was burried so it survived the early years of islam. When they burned down and detroyed and killed a lot.
The egyptian knowledge was much more advenced, they could build things like pyramids that people today cant.

They didnt survive islam, but some smaller things did survive and became islamic.
Yup Egyptian knowledge is very advanced even more so under Islam, Egypt accepted Islam with open arms... Queen Hatshepsut managed to erect in 6 months Oblisques that stand perfectly mathematically correct with no hinges, that took three years to drag across central park.. why are you leeching off other people's achievements? I mean I am always wondering about that.. the west basically monopolized half the world and stole the wealth of nations, other people's knowledge, other people's natural resources and treasures, they have stood on the shoulders of giants and now come bite the hand that fed them.. you are some kind of nuts? I hope for your sake you talk less and listen more when attending lectures.. you are very ignorant.. I have stifled enough yawns for today!
have a good one!
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- Qatada -
06-18-2007, 05:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
I personally didnt created anything, as i am not a scientist, but the western civilization ( based on christian religion, greek philosophy and roman law) that i belong to , dominates since early medieval times and everyone else is using our inventions.

Peace.

Can you clarify more on the christian logic?


The greek philosophy was translated by the muslims, that's the only way it got into Europe. Famous one includes Ibn Rushd.


The Romans, weren't they the people who said that if you follow the religion of another you'll be exectuted?
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 05:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Yup Egyptian knowledge is very advanced even more so under Islam, Egypt accepted Islam with open arms... Queen Hatshepsut managed to erect in 6 months Oblisques that stand perfectly mathematically correct with no hinges, that took three years to drag across central park.. why are you leeching off other people's achievements? I mean I am always wondering about that.. the west basically monopolized half the world and stole the wealth of nations, other people's knowledge, other people's natural resources and treasures, they have stood on the shoulders of giants and now come bite the hand that fed them.. you are some kind of nuts? I hope for your sake you talk less and listen more when attending lectures.. you are very ignorant.. I have stifled enough yawns for today!
have a good one!
Egyptian sciene didnt get more advanced, and you can not compare that to the pyramids.

No, noboy embrade islam with open arms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Arab_Egypt

Read about the counqest, they throw islam out several times. But after a while you become to assimiliated.

The egyptians never accepted islam, most of the real egyptians today are coptics, most muslims are arabs that had ancestors that migrated there.
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Can you clarify more on the christian logic?
The greek philosophy was translated by the muslims, that's the only way it got into Europe. Famous one includes Ibn Rushd.
The Romans, weren't they the people who said that if you follow the religion of another you'll be exectuted?
Yes but that was at the end of the empire. Islam has alway been like that.
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- Qatada -
06-18-2007, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
Yes but that was at the end of the empire. Islam has alway been like that.

Like what?
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Noor
06-18-2007, 05:57 PM
I think the non-Muslims are incapable of understanding that once you accept the religion of Islam and declare yourself to be a Muslim; everything you do is in harmony with the principles of Islam.

The way you walk, talk, eat, drink, think, reflect, do and accomplish is inspired by the religion. You become Islam and Islam becomes you. Consequently, when we say that they were from this region, or were from a certain culture, it doesn’t matter. These great thinkers of the past were a victory for Islam. As simple as that.
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جوري
06-18-2007, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
Egyptian sciene didnt get more advanced, and you can not compare that to the pyramids.

No, noboy embrade islam with open arms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Arab_Egypt

Read about the counqest, they throw islam out several times. But after a while you become to assimiliated.

The egyptians never accepted islam, most of the real egyptians today are coptics, most muslims are arabs that had ancestors that migrated there.
what is embrade?
you are a funny silly guy aren't you?
Stop posting me articles from wiki did you just concoct this now?.. pls visit a library once in a while or just watch the PBS.. if you are that lazy... what a silly cacophony you are making here with your pubescent little buddy -- what an absolute waste of time is the evolution of every post on this forum to something always tasteless.

http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/timeline.html
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- Qatada -
06-18-2007, 06:00 PM
:salamext:


2right ^ And sis PurestAmbrosia made a really good point, if the media portrays that muslims as terrorists as a whole, then we can use that tactic and say that it's due to Islaam that the muslims were successful as a whole.


Allaah knows best if that statement works well.. but i think everyone gets my drift inshaa Allaah.
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 06:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Noor
I think the non-Muslims are incapable of understanding that once you accept the religion of Islam and declare yourself to be a Muslim; everything you do is in harmony with the principles of Islam.

The way you walk, talk, eat, drink, think, reflect, do and accomplish is inspired by the religion. You become Islam and Islam becomes you. Consequently, when we say that they were from this region, or were from a certain culture, it doesn’t matter. These great thinkers of the past were a victory for Islam. As simple as that.
I dont like non-muslim, I prefer kufir.

So the moment you become a muslim all you do is islamic? Then what about Al Raazi being an islamic scientist when he was an atheist? And what about al the islamic invensions like the water clock that existed before islam?
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 06:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
what is embrade?
you are a funny silly guy aren't you?
Stop posting me articles from wiki did you just concoct this now?.. pls visit a library once in a while or just watch the PBS.. if you are that lazy... what a silly cacophony you are making here with your pubescent little buddy -- what an absolute waste of time is the evolution of every post on this forum to something always tasteless.

http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/timeline.html
Librarys are dangerous, they are from before the internet. They are full of lies, in an old library you can find books about aryans being superior, or why black people are dumb et c.

I like PBS, but you can not take a documentary as facts, its all biased.
Watch, "the root of all evil", its richard dawkins showing people the evil truth of religion.

And please, you can not take evereything you read or see as facts, you have to be critical.
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 06:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
:salamext:


2right ^ And sis PurestAmbrosia made a really good point, if the media portrays that muslims as terrorists as a whole, then we can use that tactic and say that it's due to Islaam that the muslims were successful as a whole.


Allaah knows best if that statement works well.. but i think everyone gets my drift inshaa Allaah.
That is thrue, the media is anti islamic, I have to agree on that. You cant belive evereything you are told.

I belive islam is evil, but not muslims. only the ones following islam 100%, and kill infidels et c.
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- Qatada -
06-18-2007, 06:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
That is thrue, the media is anti islamic, I have to agree on that. You cant belive evereything you are told.

I belive islam is evil, but not muslims. only the ones following islam 100%, and kill infidels et c.

Then you need to stop getting your info off the media, especially when you know it's biased. Nowhere does it say in Islaam to kill all the infidels.


You know what, i'll give you a link in advance so you don't even have to bother visiting anti islamic sites. Here:

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions



Peace.
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Philosopher
06-18-2007, 06:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
Watch, "the root of all evil", its richard dawkins showing people the evil truth of religion.
I am not Muslim and even I know "the root of all evil" is nothing but propaganda.
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NoName55
06-18-2007, 06:14 PM
someone should really do something about this distoting liar, sinbad, and teach him not to mix Muslim and Catholic terms.

Before, I, who has ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD (housebound), start to make a nuisance of my self by replying to every kafir post
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جوري
06-18-2007, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
Librarys are dangerous, they are from before the internet. They are full of lies, in an old library you can find books about aryans being superior, or why black people are dumb et c.

I like PBS, but you can not take a documentary as facts, its all biased.
Watch, "the root of all evil", its richard dawkins showing people the evil truth of religion.

And please, you can not take evereything you read or see as facts, you have to be critical.
lol.. indeed!
there is the recorded history which is preserved in books and libraries and there is re-recorded/re-written history with people' spins on it, be they psychological and political for whatever gains.. I think it is up to the individual to make that choice..
what that said, I really have nothing further on this subject matter to impart
have a nice day!
peace!
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
lol.. indeed!
there is the recorded history which is preserved in books and libraries and there is re-recorded/re-written history with people' spins on it, be they psychological and political for whatever gains.. I think it is up to the individual to make that choice..
what that said, I really have nothing further on this subject matter to impart
have a nice day!
peace!
you have said that since the first page and still you keep coming, back:D
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جوري
06-18-2007, 06:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
you have said that since the first page and still you keep coming, back:D
yes-- You keep cluttering my mailbox, every time I am about to sign off, ( I get mail).. I am going to unsubscribe now anyhow from this thread... I know how you enjoy having the last word.. Is that a persian thing?

peace!
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NoName55
06-18-2007, 06:30 PM
still you keep coming, back
probably in th vain hope to see you off, (as soon as some chief/boss realises the difference between people coming here to learn/exchange views and coming here to teach and"conquer" Muslims to finish off Islaam. (those Iranian moolas must have done some real bad to you to turn you into this lying machine)
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3isha
06-18-2007, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
No India got it first, tere is an iron pillar in India that has pi and all those maths that came later on. India is the oldest.

And once again islam destroyed more sciense that was created during islamic times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

The library of Alexandria was a great center of sciense, many islamic invension like the water clock survived the islamic invasion and became islamic invensions.
('m an indian)
and i was told that pi was a greek letter,
but ibn sina (avecina) and ibn rushd were great scientists (again islam)
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 06:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Is that a persian thing?peace!
RACIST! Gong to report that!
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Amadeus85
06-18-2007, 08:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
That is thrue, the media is anti islamic, I have to agree on that. You cant belive evereything you are told.

I belive islam is evil, but not muslims. only the ones following islam 100%, and kill infidels et c.
Dude you are so gonna be banned.

A faith cant be evil. I know personally many muslims who are great and loving people.
Faith cant be evil, only the followers do evil sometimes. The same christians and Jews and hindus etc.
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barney
06-18-2007, 09:42 PM
I suppose it's linked strongly with the topic and the debate.

The libary of Alexandria.

Which muslims beleive that the caliphs actions were justified or does anyone think he overeacted.

Personally, I think that destroying thousands of years of records was a crime against humanity.
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جوري
06-18-2007, 10:06 PM
umm which destruction was that?
Caesar's conquest 48 BC?
The attack of Aurelian in the 3rd century?
The decree of Theophilus in 391?
or the alleged destruction of the Muslim conquest in 642 or thereafter.?
Even questionable sources tell of a different tale from you.. I think people who mislead others are the true criminals against humanity...
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barney
06-18-2007, 10:37 PM
I was refering to the last destruction, the one that shut it down permenantly destroying the books and scrolls, not the pagen idols.

Regardless of that, was it a justified decision?

I would say that the previous damage done was also a crime. I have no problem with a religion smashing up pagan texts and statues as such, but why trash everything else.

I know that if It had been me "A really badly guided caliph", i'd have destroyed stuff that contradicted the quran and kept stuff that diddnt.
(It would have taken ages)
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 10:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
umm which destruction was that?
Caesar's conquest 48 BC?
The attack of Aurelian in the 3rd century?
The decree of Theophilus in 391?
or the alleged destruction of the Muslim conquest in 642 or thereafter.?
Even questionable sources tell of a different tale from you.. I think people who mislead others are the true criminals against humanity...
Others have done wrong, but that dosent justify what islam did to sciense.
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جوري
06-18-2007, 10:44 PM
Muslim conquest in 642
The tale of the Muslim destruction of the Library comes from several Alexandrian historians, writing several hundred years later. The legend has it that the caliph Umar posed to commander Amr bin al 'Ass the following dilemma: "Touching the books you mention, if what is written in them agrees with the Book of God, they are not required; if it disagrees, they are not desired. Destroy them therefore." [14] The tale goes on to say that the books fueled the city's bath-houses for the next six months. Since the 18th century, this story has been universally regarded as a fiction. Normally it has been put down to Christian crusader propaganda, but recently some historians, including Bernard Lewis, have argued that although the tale is certainly false, its true origin may be more complex.[15][16]
enough said.. unless we want to re-invent history?
Sinbad..pls enroll in some night classes, it might do you some good!
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 10:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
enough said.. unless we want to re-invent history?
Sinbad..pls enroll in some night classes, it might do you some good!
School is for poor people. I rather spend my time making money instead.

A thing that would be good for you is to read from diffrent perspectives, and dont just listen to one side. Be more critical to what you read.
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barney
06-18-2007, 10:55 PM
Wikipedia is truly marvelous!

But I wonder why we should stop there...
its true origin may be more complex.......
Although the actual circumstances and timing of the physical destruction of the Library remains uncertain, it is however clear that by the 8th century, the Library was no longer a significant institution and had ceased to function in any important capacity. Alexandria was not a major research center for the Islamic world.

Rather than wiki' your way to knowlage, I would suggest readers who can be fussed enough read this balanced article & debate.

http://elyclarifies.blogspot.com/200...a-library.html
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جوري
06-18-2007, 10:59 PM
marvelous when you use it ey? as I stated above--
Even questionable sources tell of a different tale from you.. I think people who mislead others are the true criminals
Do you have a point bubbah or you are into wasting my time with yous so-called "fair and balanced blogs". If you weren't there, and can't verify it from a respectful history book, What is there to talk about in a blog? do you want to re-invent other than the documented history? what a joker!
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NoName55
06-18-2007, 11:11 PM
:sl:
I just dont get it, I really dont get the Idea of these legions of MODs old and new but none is willing to MODerate these trolls. Are they waiting for a khalifah? like those moolas in Pakistan who refuse to serve in Armed Forces till a Caliph comes and tells them to.
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جوري
06-18-2007, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
:sl:
I just dont get it, I really dont get the Idea of these legions of MODs old and new but none is willing to MODerate these trolls. Are they waiting for a khalifah? like those moolas in Pakistan who refuse to serve in Armed Forces till a Caliph comes and tells them to.
The man has a "fair and balanced" blog you know the motto for Fox news lol, how can you not be amused that such mentalities live and thrive in our midst.. and pass this sort of "intellectualization" to their off spring-- and I do really mean it, in its meant light as a defense mechanism!
:w:
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barney
06-18-2007, 11:17 PM
I'm sorry Purest. Your right. I wasnt there.

I bow to someone like yourself with personal experience of the event.

The blog, if you read it, debates Lewis's work that forms the basis for the wiki entry. it's actually swaying to pro-islam.

I suppose you see a agnostic posting something and just kick out blindly assuming that it's dissing your religion.:rollseyes
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 11:23 PM
wiki is pro islam of course, 1/4 of all people are muslims, they dont want to lose visitors.
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جوري
06-18-2007, 11:24 PM
No just you!.. I know many delightful agnostics and theists even on the board (snakelegs) being one, and there are many others, who might not be remotely interested in Islam, yet are here for the obvious reason of learning and fostering some understanding, not quoting from various hate blogs, the above isn't the only one.. I have opened quite a few of your ready sources on various sections of this forum.
And no I wasn't there, but rather than loan credence to nonsense, you know the same way you are willing to dismiss half of what we write as conspiracy theories, even if it has strong scientific basis, I myself am not willing to give in to a side track from what is actually reported in history books... Perhaps sinbad is correct-- you can't trust academia? let's burn all books and read subjective opinions from the Internet, as facts!

peace!
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barney
06-18-2007, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
if that's the case.. go Jews!! albert einstein was a Jew!! wOoOhOo!
Ben Franklin was an Atheist!

:D

But so was Chairman Mao :skeleton:
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جوري
06-18-2007, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
:thumbs_up

<< Sinbad before he quit his day job to work full time as a hired goon on LI.

peace!
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Sinbad
06-18-2007, 11:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

<< Sinbad before he quit his day job to work full time as a hired goon on LI.

peace!
I love you to:)
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Keltoi
06-19-2007, 01:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Ben Franklin was an Atheist!

:D

But so was Chairman Mao :skeleton:
Actually Ben Franklin was a Deist, but he wasn't a Christian, that much is true.
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ranma1/2
06-19-2007, 04:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
All great civilizations have made technological and scientific advances. However, it had more to do with individuals, not a society or a religion. If you want to praise people for their discoveries, praise the individual, not the collective they happened to be a part of.
very well said,
this type of "we did it first" thinking seems to only drive a a wedge between what you label as "you, we, us" vs them.
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ranma1/2
06-19-2007, 04:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
....
.....
internet - a Christian
......


Al Gore?
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Zman
06-19-2007, 12:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
...not quoting from various hate blogs, the above isn't the only one...peace!
:sl:

It's amazing how Muslims are accused of spreading hate, yet some members reference extremely hateful & xenophobic material...
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جوري
06-19-2007, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
:sl:

It's amazing how Muslims are accused of spreading hate, yet some members reference extremely hateful & xenophobic material...
pls spreading hate is one thing, false information infuriates me.. if Muslims were keen on burning books, why would Maimonides' the Jewish "scholar"'s works be written in Arabic and later translated to Hebrew.. why wasn't he burnt at the stake when he wrote a book cursing the sons of Ishmael.. rather he was given in refuge in Arab land, wrote in Arabic, cursed us out and was allowed to do it.. further the only response he got was a book written as a rebuttal to his.. entitled the accolades of the sons of Ishmeal... history documents its truth, even if the unlearned wish to distort it or even if it is discarded on the shelf.. it will withstand the test of time and with any hope continue being taught on properly in academia! And I hope those of us who are Muslims, just dust the books from the shelves and read them, so we can know our own history better
:w:
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doorster
06-19-2007, 04:58 PM
Islam did get it first
hazraat Aadam, Nuh, Suleiman, Ibrahim, Isaac, Ismael, Dawood, Musa, Isa, Yayah, Isa Muhammad Peace be upon them all who ever believed their message was a Muslim.
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Amadeus85
06-19-2007, 05:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
Islam did get it first
hazraat Aadam, Nuh, Suleiman, Ibrahim, Isaac, Ismael, Dawood, Musa, Isa, Yayah, Isa Muhammad Peace be upon them all who ever believed their message was a Muslim.
In my university i have learned that Moses, David, Abraham and the rest were Jews. My encyklopedy says the same.So whom should i believe to? You or my professors and historical books?
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جوري
06-19-2007, 05:28 PM
What does "Jew" Yahoodi mean to you? because that term came about with Moses.. calling the people back to houda from yahoodi, was not known or used prior to that... so maybe you can enlighten us as to how Abraham, David or even Moses were Jews, if the term itself wasn't used until afterwards?
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جوري
06-19-2007, 05:30 PM
repeat post..
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Sinbad
06-19-2007, 05:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
In my university i have learned that Moses, David, Abraham and the rest were Jews. My encyklopedy says the same.So whom should i believe to? You or my professors and historical books?
Well historicly they where jews, but according to the quaran, and the quaran only they where muslims.
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Sinbad
06-19-2007, 05:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
What does "Jew" Yahoodi mean to you? because that term came about with Moses.. calling the people back to houda from yahoodi, was not known or used prior to that... so maybe you can enlighten us as to how Abraham, David or even Moses were Jews, if the term itself wasn't used until afterwards?
is hebrew better?
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- Qatada -
06-19-2007, 06:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
is hebrew better?

Someone who is hebrew speaks the language.


ALL the Prophets of God were muslims because they submitted to God/Allaah ALONE the way He wanted them to (so they submitted to Allaah = Islaam, and someone who submits is a Muslim, they worshipped God Alone without any intermediarries.


This was the same call of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (peace be upon all) 124,000 Prophets of God.




Regards.
Reply

Zman
06-19-2007, 06:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
In my university i have learned that Moses, David, Abraham and the rest were Jews. My encyklopedy says the same.So whom should i believe to? You or my professors and historical books?

One non-Muslim said on another thread that not everything taught in the school system is true.

So, for arguments sake, believe whatever pleases you...
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جوري
06-19-2007, 06:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman

One non-Muslim said on another thread that not everything taught in the school system is true.

So, for arguments sake, believe whatever pleases you...
By convention that isn't what is taught in school unless he is taking about bible class where there is a new improved bible per day to make up for all the pieces they have re-written and can't make sense out of.. if we are going to go just by the definition and according to them Judah of whom they (Jews) were named after happens to be the 4th son of Jacob and Leah... hmmn let's see now unless we are working in retrospect?
we have Abraham PBUH father of Monotheism, who begat both Isaac and Ishmael, both of them having had kids from the same father but let's step aside from Ishmael for a while and focus on Jacob, Jacob PBUH then went on to have Isaac, Isaac in turn had his 12 sons of whom one was Judah.. how does that make the previous parties "Jewish" are we working backwards or forwards... I can't believe some of the stuff I read here.. G-D what standards allows these deficient students pass their classes, unless they want them to be purposefully under educated?
:w:
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wilberhum
06-19-2007, 06:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman

One non-Muslim said on another thread that not everything taught in the school system is true.

So, for arguments sake, believe whatever pleases you...
I'm sure the entire university system is wrong. :skeleton:
Reply

جوري
06-19-2007, 07:28 PM
^^ you can direct that sentiment to Sinbad!
We already know what is taught in academia and it isn't the crap some enjoy hurling on the net!

peace!
Reply

Sinbad
06-19-2007, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
^^ you can direct that sentiment to Sinbad!
We already know what is taught in academia and it isn't the crap some enjoy hurling on the net!

peace!
I remember talking in school about an incident with a razor in an apple in America. Why would anyone enjoy that et c. It was a psychologi class.

I read on internet that it was just a rumor, that it didnt happen. Internet was right, it was false, fueled with americans fear.

You can also see it in Michael Moores "bowling for columbine".

Internet is full of crap, so is tv, so is school.

What you need to do is to drop the "the academic stuff is always right"
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Amadeus85
06-19-2007, 07:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
Well historicly they where jews, but according to the quaran, and the quaran only they where muslims.
Yes i agree with you, only according to the Quaran they were muslims. While children all over the world, also in East Asia and non muslim Africa i believe, know that Moses, Abraham and Isaac were Jews. They celebrated jewish holy days, and as far as i know before Muhammad's times there is No single historical verse about religion called islam, while there are hundreds of historical stuff about judaism and Jews.
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جوري
06-19-2007, 07:59 PM
I know how to filter through the crap.. question is can you?

You have a very dichotomous personality, and though I have most people here more or less figured out, you are somewhat of an enigma, I don't mean that in a flattering way.. like a heckle and Jeckle personality! I am not quite sure where you are coming from, where you've been or where you are going!-- but the way you are going I see a big "account disabled" in your future!

peace!
Reply

جوري
06-19-2007, 08:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Yes i agree with you, only according to the Quaran they were muslims. While children all over the world, also in East Asia and non muslim Africa i believe, know that Moses, Abraham and Isaac were Jews. They celebrated jewish holy days, and as far as i know before Muhammad's times there is No single historical verse about religion called islam, while there are hundreds of historical stuff about judaism and Jews.
You should become Jewish, since there is no historical account of Jesus and frankly the Jews believe him a phony, it will give your pathological need to constantly leech off their history a satisfactory rest, and be a bit less embarrassing for you!.. I won't even address the rest, I believe what I have written prior is sufficient for discerning minds!

peace!
Reply

Bittersteel
06-19-2007, 08:19 PM
the only thing we can learn that Islam allows to seek knowledge.Nothing else.These are all history and we should keep them in the books and progress towards the future,instead of thinking about them always.
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Sinbad
06-19-2007, 08:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I know how to filter through the crap.. question is can you?

You have a very dichotomous personality, and though I have most people here more or less figured out, you are somewhat of an enigma, I don't mean that in a flattering way.. like a heckle and Jeckle personality! I am not quite sure where you are coming from, where you've been or where you are going!-- but the way you are going I see a big "account disabled" in your future!

peace!
I love you to, its great that we have become so good friends!:) :thumbs_up
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جوري
06-19-2007, 08:22 PM
talking about it might give people the impetus to move forward again in the positive direction insha'Allah..
:w:
Reply

barney
06-20-2007, 12:52 AM
Since this thread was posted to be a "Nahh nahh nahh nahh nahh...We are better than you, look at all the stuff we discovered" Thread.
It might be good if we get a list of all the things, scientific, mathmatical, mechanical "Islamic" "Christian" "Jewish" nations have developed and discovered. Taking it from the early 7th C since Islam is the youngest to make it fair.

I'm not going to do it...Too much ruddy work, but since the point of the thread seems to be to try and rub peoples noses in others acheivements rather than thinking that its "Mankind" that discovered these things and that they are for all of us, It might get the thing back on track.

:)
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ranma1/2
06-20-2007, 05:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Since this thread was posted to be a "Nahh nahh nahh nahh nahh...We are better than you, look at all the stuff we discovered" Thread.
It might be good if we get a list of all the things, scientific, mathmatical, mechanical "Islamic" "Christian" "Jewish" nations have developed and discovered. Taking it from the early 7th C since Islam is the youngest to make it fair.

I'm not going to do it...Too much ruddy work, but since the point of the thread seems to be to try and rub peoples noses in others acheivements rather than thinking that its "Mankind" that discovered these things and that they are for all of us, It might get the thing back on track.

:)
as i said before this "we are better than you mentality" holds no purpose except to create walls and is a horrible way of thinking.
Reply

Malaikah
06-20-2007, 08:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
In my university i have learned that Moses, David, Abraham and the rest were Jews. My encyklopedy says the same.So whom should i believe to? You or my professors and historical books?
LOL! I would to see the evidence provided other than the bible!

There is no non-religious evidence that these men even existed!
Reply

Zman
06-20-2007, 02:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Since this thread was posted to be a "Nahh nahh nahh nahh nahh...We are better than you, look at all the stuff we discovered" Thread.

Honestly, that wasn't my intention at all.

It's a fact that all civilizations have contributed to the advancement of humanity, and no one has a monopoly.

But, you seem to have taken this the wrong way.

What's wrong with us being proud of our discoveries?

Instead of being happy, you got all defensive and attempted to put us and our achievements down...
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Zman
06-20-2007, 02:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I'm sure the entire university system is wrong. :skeleton:

I agree :p
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Keltoi
06-20-2007, 05:31 PM
I didn't take the thread as a "nah nah nah" type of thing, as I'm well aware that classical education in the "West" focuses on the Greek and Roman scholars and philosophers, while probably overlooking the contributions of other civilizations. However, I think some people are falling into the same trap by suggesting many of these discoveries were somehow Islamic-only. Those Muslim scientists and scholars owe a large portion of their knowledge to those who came before, just as the Greek and Romans did.
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Muezzin
06-20-2007, 06:18 PM
Humanity sucks sometimes. Even when people do good things, other people moan at them.

Every people on this planet contributed to it in some way. Is it rubbing people's noses in it for those people to be proud of the accomplishments persons from their number made, without trying to assert any sort of superiority?

Earlier in the thread, someone sarcastically said 'Einstein was a Jew. Go Jews!' I agree with that statement, sincerely. The Jewish community should be proud that such a great mind came from its number. The Christian communities should be proud of the great minds that came from their number. The Muslim community should be proud of the great minds that came from our number, though I think we should spend less time dwelling in the past, and more time trying to surpass the accomplishments of those great historical figures.

I'm not drawing a causal link between people's religions and their accomplishments, and I don't think others intend to. All they appear to intend to do is to say 'wow, they're the same as me in some way!' The same way you'd be proud if a sporting legend came from your hometown.
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