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Philosopher
06-17-2007, 08:33 PM
"God is not like men, who lie; He is not a human who changes his mind. Whatever he promises, he does; He speaks and it is done." - Numbers 23:19

"So the Lord changed his mind and did not bring on his people the disaster he threatened." - Exodus 32:14l
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Woodrow
06-18-2007, 06:14 PM
You will have to wait for a Christian or Jew to Answer. That is not from the Qur'an.
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Philosopher
06-18-2007, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
You will have to wait for a Christian or Jew to Answer. That is not from the Qur'an.
Well, there is abrogation in the Qu'ran as well, but I'll deal with that later.
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Woodrow
06-18-2007, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Well, there is abrogation in the Qu'ran as well, but I'll deal with that later.
Thank you for the courtesy in understanding that we do not vouch for the accuracy of any scriptures outside the Qur'an or Ahadith.
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vpb
06-18-2007, 08:16 PM
Well, there is abrogation in the Qu'ran as well, but I'll deal with that later.
here's a link about Abrogation concerning Qur'an.
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...orious%20Quran
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glo
06-18-2007, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
"God is not like men, who lie; He is not a human who changes his mind. Whatever he promises, he does; He speaks and it is done." - Numbers 23:19

"So the Lord changed his mind and did not bring on his people the disaster he threatened." - Exodus 32:14l
Interesting thread.

To my knowledge there are several incidents in the OT, during which God changes a course of action - usually in response to prayer. I suppose the question is, what was God's will in these situations in the first place? And how do we know?

On the occasion of sparing the Israelites who had gone astray and built a golden calf - had God planned to destroy them, and changed his mind because of Moses' plea (or rather a clever argument than a plea ...)? Or had God planned on sparing them in the first place, and was just waiting for Moses' request? Who knows?

For me, as a believer, it is encouraging to think that the prayer of one believer may reach God and prompt him to change his course of action ...
(Out of interest, what is the Islamic view on this? Can intercessory prayer cause God to 'change his mind'?)

What the first verse is about, I will not even attempt to answer ... I don't know. I would have to do some serious reading up on Balak and Balaam ...
Perhaps somebody else knows?

Peace
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Keltoi
06-18-2007, 10:59 PM
Christians, and Muslims I assume, believe that God is aware of past, present, and future. If God "changes" a course of action, it is because that was His course of action to begin with. Human beings have free will, and as Glo eluded, God is capable of reward and punishment. However, He does not simply "change His mind", but is aware of the cause and effect of events.
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vpb
06-18-2007, 11:02 PM
Different rules for different people. actually Allah swt made it easier for us, bc of his mercy.
just imagine at the time of Moses a.s, when somebody's cloth was done with dirt (when u go to the bathroom), they had to change the whole cloth or cut that piece were it became dirty, whereas in Islam Allah made it easier, so we just wash it. There are a lot of things, which Allah swt made it easier for us. tha laws in Islam are much easier. so it doesn't mean that Allah changed his mind, it's just that he made it easier for us.
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Abdul Fattah
06-18-2007, 11:08 PM
No, God doesn't change his mind. If he'd change his mind that would imply that new information swayed him to a different opinion. But God is omniscient, so there can't be something that he overlooked before changing his mind.
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- Qatada -
06-18-2007, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Well, there is abrogation in the Qu'ran as well, but I'll deal with that later.
It is analogous to a Professor who asks his students to perform 30 minutes of studying everyday for the first week. During the second week, he 'abrogates' his initial command and asks his students to perform 1 hour of studying every day. The Professor did not make a mistake initially, nor did he react to an unforeseen event. Rather, he had always planned to give a lighter load the first week to his students, and then increase the workload the next week because he knew they would be ready for it. In fact, he had his plan for the entire course written down and recorded. So when he initially gave the order to perform 30 minutes of homework, he knew that he would later abrogate this command.


More info:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...brogation.html
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Keltoi
06-18-2007, 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
It is analogous to a Professor who asks his students to perform 30 minutes of studying everyday for the first week. During the second week, he 'abrogates' his initial command and asks his students to perform 1 hour of studying every day. The Professor did not make a mistake initially, nor did he react to an unforeseen event. Rather, he had always planned to give a lighter load the first week to his students, and then increase the workload the next week because he knew they would be ready for it. In fact, he had his plan for the entire course written down and recorded. So when he initially gave the order to perform 30 minutes of homework, he knew that he would later abrogate this command.


More info:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...brogation.html
Good analogy
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barney
06-18-2007, 11:22 PM
During the nights journey, Allah was approached several times by mohammed and reduceed the prayer after negotiation from 50 to 30 to 20 to 5.

This was done "As a blessing" to the muslims, and "the 5 is equal to the 50".

But it's still changing his mind.
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- Qatada -
06-18-2007, 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by barney
During the nights journey, Allah was approached several times by mohammed and reduceed the prayer after negotiation from 50 to 30 to 20 to 5.

This was done "As a blessing" to the muslims, and "the 5 is equal to the 50".

But it's still changing his mind.

Is there any mention of Him changing His mind? No there's not - so you don't have the right to claim that. Since He is the All Knowing.


Since there is authentic text which states that He is the All Knowing, and there isn't any text which states 'He changed his mind' - then that means that the former takes preference over the latter.




Regards.
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vpb
06-18-2007, 11:27 PM
:sl:

5 prayers have the same rewards as 50 prayer... so?? what's the big deal here?

instead of paying 50 pounds for 5 bananas, now you get 5 banans only for 5 pounds. it's just a discount. any problem with discount? :p
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Abdul Fattah
06-18-2007, 11:27 PM
During the nights journey, Allah was approached several times by mohammed and reduceed the prayer after negotiation from 50 to 30 to 20 to 5.

This was done "As a blessing" to the muslims, and "the 5 is equal to the 50".

But it's still changing his mind.
I can see how you would come to the conclusion. But I think you should give God a bit more credit then that. He knew that Muhammed peace be upon him would ask that. So there was a different reason he said 50 at first, and allowed Muhammed to make it easier for us. there is certainly knowledge behind it, but I I am not certain so I will not indulge in speculating, and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.

(ps I accedentially edited your post at first by pressing teh wrong botton, my apologies, still new to this moderating thing :)
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barney
06-18-2007, 11:41 PM
Hi.

With the greatest respect, the fact that it dosnt say he changed his mind dosnt mean he diddnt change his mind.

If I say a bloke asked me if i wanted an orange and I said no, an apple, then a grapefruit and finally a turnip. I'd be changing my mind.

The Turnip I could say is the same as the Orange, and I could accept it as such,and it genuinely be the same to me, but I would have changed my mind from my original request.

I may have a good reason for changing my mind, but change it I did.

Not the best allagory, and not meant to be disrespectful, but as to the point, it's rock solid!
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barney
06-18-2007, 11:43 PM
Actually...does it matter if god changes his mind?

He's god so it's not like he's answerable to anyone!
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Abdul Fattah
06-18-2007, 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Hi.

With the greatest respect, the fact that it dosnt say he changed his mind dosnt mean he diddnt change his mind.

If I say a bloke asked me if i wanted an orange and I said no, an apple, then a grapefruit and finally a turnip. I'd be changing my mind.

The Turnip I could say is the same as the Orange, and I could accept it as such,and it genuinely be the same to me, but I would have changed my mind from my original request.

I may have a good reason for changing my mind, but change it I did.

Not the best allagory, and not meant to be disrespectful, but as to the point, it's rock solid!
Well it's not changing your mind if you do it because of a hidden agenda.
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barney
06-18-2007, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Well it's not changing your mind if you do it because of a hidden agenda.

Groan! :D

Theists! gotta love em!
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Abdul Fattah
06-19-2007, 12:59 AM
Theists! gotta love em!
Yeah I know, our gentle nature makes us very lovable :D

Seriously, look at the exampel of teh teacher that -qatada- wrote, it makes perfect sense.
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ranma1/2
06-19-2007, 01:07 AM
yes the god of the bible changes its mind.

I imagine many have problems with this.

How can a perfect being change its mind?
That would imply a mistake and thus imperfection.
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barney
06-19-2007, 01:21 AM
Ranma, It's been a while since I opened my Bible. Is there any cast iron examples of Changing the Mind in the Bible after negotiations with a human, prophet or otherwise?

I'm confident there is, but I wondered if there was anything as clear cut as the nights journey's example.

BTW, Changing the mind isnt always making a mistake. It's more like God saying "Awwh! Go on then! Lets make it what you say....I'm not that fussed" It would only be a mistake if he was to say something like a rock could talk or the sun landed in a muddy pool,or the world was made in 6 days. Something like that
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snakelegs
06-19-2007, 01:25 AM
i don't follow any holy books so i can't address this specifically.
but if there were records that god had changed his mind - what would it mean to atheists - "proof" that he doesn't exist? that he isn't perfect? i don't understand the logic here. does perfection mean you can never change your mind, as a result of changes going on elsewhere? you make up your mind and even tho circumstances may change completely, you stick to it. this sounds more like a description of a neurotic to me.
so what point is the OP trying to make here?
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barney
06-19-2007, 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i don't follow any holy books so i can't address this specifically.
but if there were records that god had changed his mind - what would it mean to atheists - "proof" that he doesn't exist? that he isn't perfect? i don't understand the logic here. does perfection mean you can never change your mind, as a result of changes going on elsewhere? you make up your mind and even tho circumstances may change completely, you stick to it. this sounds more like a description of a neurotic to me.
so what point is the OP trying to make here?
Yah, agree. God can change his mind. He can In My opinion make mistakes.
I mean ...why create Belgium?
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Keltoi
06-19-2007, 01:34 AM
You can also connect this to the concept of free will in human beings. God sometimes created circumstances in which a person had to come to their own conclusion through free will, and often this person had to be pushed a little, by way of a divine threat usually. That doesn't mean God made an empty threat, it simply means God knew the individual would make the right choice if faced with the possibility of God's anger. Sort of like a parent's interaction with a child.
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Abdul Fattah
06-19-2007, 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Yah, agree. God can change his mind. He can In My opinion make mistakes.
I mean ...why create Belgium?
Oh, are you a separatists who wants the Flemish people to be free of the financial burdon of supporting the wallons socially?

Belgium is a country with very low nationalistic sentiment. And personally I wan't nothing to do with sentiments as nationalism and patriotism, so you defenitly won't get to me that way :p
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August
06-19-2007, 01:41 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
How can a perfect being change its mind?
That would imply a mistake and thus imperfection.
Not necessarily. Have you hear the story of Jonah and the whale? Who hasn't, right. After he was spit up on the shore, he took God's message to Nineveh. He walked the streets telling them that God would destroy their city in forty days because it had become wicked. But, when the King and people of Nineveh heard Jonah they believed him, and repented for their sins. God then decided not to destroy the city. (summary of Jonah 3:1-10)

Does that mean that God made a mistake in wanting to destroy Ninevah? No, He's God, He knew exactly what would happen, but if he hadn't made the threat, Nineveh would never have repented. We can have a hard time understanding the will of God, because His perception is so different from ours.

As an aside. It is a Christian belief that God exists outside of time. Do Muslims share that view of God?
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barney
06-19-2007, 01:42 AM
OMG! Sorry! I just assummed there wasnt any Belgians around! :D

I actually picked Belgium at random, and really like the place!

Umm OK....Wasps. Wasps were a mistake!

I'll get a ruddy wasp answering now!
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Philosopher
06-19-2007, 01:49 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Christians, and Muslims I assume, believe that God is aware of past, present, and future. If God "changes" a course of action, it is because that was His course of action to begin with. Human beings have free will, and as Glo eluded, God is capable of reward and punishment. However, He does not simply "change His mind", but is aware of the cause and effect of events.
If God is omniscient, he knows what will happen in the future. Hence, ALL events are fixed. Since God changed his mind, he has false knowledge. Simple refutation.

Also, an omniscient God is incompatible with human free will. It's called the "omniscience paradox."

http://www.galilean-library.org/taylor.html

For a short summary, this is good:

Using the current popular definition of free will: an agent has free will with respect to action X if that agent had the ability to do otherwise than X.

1) Assume God exists.
2) If God exists, He is necessarily omniscient.
3) Assume God has free will.
4) For any possible act X, either it's true that God will do X or it's true that God will not do X.

5a) If it's true that God will do X, then God knows He will do X.
6a) If God knows He will do X, he cannot do otherwise than X. (Proof: If God knows He will do X, then to not do X would entail that God was wrong. But God is necessarily omniscient, so He can't be wrong.)

5b) If it's true that God will not do X, then God knows He will not do X.
6b) If God knows He will not do X, he cannot do X. (Proof: If God knows He will not do X, then to do X would entail that God was wrong. But God is necessarily omniscient, so He can't be wrong.)

7) Either way, God does not have free will with respect to X.
8) Hence, either God does not exist, or he does not have free will.

Also, I do not think eternal hellfire is characteristic of a benevolent deity :rollseyes
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Philosopher
06-19-2007, 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Actually...does it matter if god changes his mind?

He's god so it's not like he's answerable to anyone!
It doesnt matter if God is not omniscient. I have exposed a contradiction in the "buy bull" and I'm still waiting for a fundie to resolve this quagmire.
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August
06-19-2007, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Also, I do not think eternal hellfire is characteristic of a benevolent deity :rollseyes
I'd say giving people who ignore the laws of God the same reward as the faithful would be somewhat less benevolent.
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Philosopher
06-19-2007, 01:53 AM
Not necessarily. Have you hear the story of Jonah and the whale? Who hasn't, right. After he was spit up on the shore, he took God's message to Nineveh. He walked the streets telling them that God would destroy their city in forty days because it had become wicked. But, when the King and people of Nineveh heard Jonah they believed him, and repented for their sins. God then decided not to destroy the city. (summary of Jonah 3:1-10)

Does that mean that God made a mistake in wanting to destroy Ninevah? No, He's God, He knew exactly what would happen, but if he hadn't made the threat, Nineveh would never have repented. We can have a hard time understanding the will of God, because His perception is so different from ours.

As an aside. It is a Christian belief that God exists outside of time. Do Muslims share that view of God?
Jonah? You mean the Jonah that was swallowed by a big fished and meditated and prayed in the fish's stomach?? LMAO!

Come back to debate when you are willing to use common sense, not poorly written fairytales.
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August
06-19-2007, 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
If God is omniscient, he knows what will happen in the future. Hence, ALL events are fixed.
God is outside of time. Right now, I'm eating popcorn. God knew, from the day I was born that I would be eating popcorn at this exact moment, but I still made the choice. God didn't decide I would eat popcorn, He just knew what choice I was going to make.
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Philosopher
06-19-2007, 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by August
I'd say giving people who ignore the laws of God the same reward as the faithful would be somewhat less benevolent.
Tell me that if you end up in the Islamic hellfire :rollseyes

Ever heard of the Problem of Evil? Maybe you need to do more research and see why you God does not exist (at least in terms of common sense).
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barney
06-19-2007, 01:58 AM
It's metaphorical philly.

In the original text it was "Wales". He visited Cardiff.
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Philosopher
06-19-2007, 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by August
God is outside of time. Right now, I'm eating popcorn. God knew, from the day I was born that I would be eating popcorn at this exact moment, but I still made the choice. God didn't decide I would eat popcorn, He just knew what choice I was going to make.
Did you read my previous posts?? Human free and an omniscient God are INCOMPATIBLE. Let me summarize the problem:

1.) A being with free will, given two options, can freely choose between A and B.
2.) God is omniscient.
3.) God knows I will choose A.
4.) God cannot be wrong since an omniscient God cannot have false knowledge.
5.) From (3.) and (4.), I will choose A and cannot choose B.
6.) From (1.) and (5.), omniscience and human free will are mutually exclusive.

* Words italicized for emphasis.
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Philosopher
06-19-2007, 02:02 AM
Originally Posted by barney
It's metaphorical philly.

In the original text it was "Wales". He visited Cardiff.
http://www.endtimes.org/grammat.html

As a matter of fact, Jesus certainly believed in the story of Jonah was literal.
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Keltoi
06-19-2007, 02:04 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Did you read my previous posts?? Human free and an omniscient God are INCOMPATIBLE. Let me summarize the problem:

1.) A being with free will, given two options, can freely choose between A and B.
2.) God is omniscient.
3.) God knows I will choose A.
4.) God cannot be wrong since an omniscient God cannot have false knowledge.
5.) From (3.) and (4.), I will choose A and cannot choose B.
6.) From (1.) and (5.), omniscience and human free will are mutually exclusive.

* Words italicized for emphasis.
The fact that God is aware of what choice you will make doesn't mean free will wasn't at play on the human level. As God lives outside of time, He is already aware of what choice you made, but free will determined that choice.
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barney
06-19-2007, 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
If God is omniscient, he knows what will happen in the future. Hence, ALL events are fixed. Since God changed his mind, he has false knowledge. Simple refutation.

Also, an omniscient God is incompatible with human free will. It's called the "omniscience paradox."

http://www.galilean-library.org/taylor.html

For a short summary, this is good:

Using the current popular definition of free will: an agent has free will with respect to action X if that agent had the ability to do otherwise than X.

1) Assume God exists.
2) If God exists, He is necessarily omniscient.
3) Assume God has free will.
4) For any possible act X, either it's true that God will do X or it's true that God will not do X.

5a) If it's true that God will do X, then God knows He will do X.
6a) If God knows He will do X, he cannot do otherwise than X. (Proof: If God knows He will do X, then to not do X would entail that God was wrong. But God is necessarily omniscient, so He can't be wrong.)

5b) If it's true that God will not do X, then God knows He will not do X.
6b) If God knows He will not do X, he cannot do X. (Proof: If God knows He will not do X, then to do X would entail that God was wrong. But God is necessarily omniscient, so He can't be wrong.)

7) Either way, God does not have free will with respect to X.
8) Hence, either God does not exist, or he does not have free will.

Also, I do not think eternal hellfire is characteristic of a benevolent deity :rollseyes
Bah! I was going to use that one!

SULK!
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MuhammadRizan
06-19-2007, 02:15 AM
:sl:

In Islam we believe Allah dont change His mind, everything from beginning already predestined till the end.

If God change His mind it clearly contradict His own attribute--All knowing.

Atheist always ask that "Why Allah..." things, i honestly think this question is valid and i think we can get clearer view about "Why Allah..." question if we realize and view this world as testing ground..it's temporary..

Human are not created to live in this world...but human must prove his worth to live forever in heaven.

By Allah mercy he already told us how to win this game and lose it.

so about that Night Journey it's a bless also a test to Muhammad(pbuh)...


Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345:

Narrated Abu Dhar:

Allah's Apostle said, "While I was at Mecca the roof of my house was opened and Gabriel descended, opened my chest, and washed it with Zam-zam water. Then he brought a golden tray full of wisdom and faith and having poured its contents into my chest, he closed it. Then he took my hand and ascended with me to the nearest heaven, when I reached the nearest heaven, Gabriel said to the gatekeeper of the heaven, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered: 'Gabriel.' He asked, 'Is there anyone with you?' Gabriel replied, 'Yes, Muhammad I is with me.' He asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel said, 'Yes.' So the gate was opened and we went over the nearest heaven and there we saw a man sitting with some people on his right and some on his left. When he looked towards his right, he laughed and when he looked toward his left he wept. Then he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' He replied, 'He is Adam and the people on his right and left are the souls of his offspring. Those on his right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he laughs and when he looks towards his left he weeps.'

Then he ascended with me till he reached the second heaven and he (Gabriel) said to its gatekeeper, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper said to him the same as the gatekeeper of the first heaven had said and he opened the gate. Anas said: "Abu Dhar added that the Prophet met Adam, Idris, Moses, Jesus and Abraham, he (Abu Dhar) did not mention on which heaven they were but he mentioned that he (the Prophet ) met Adarn on the nearest heaven and Abraham on the sixth heaven. Anas said, "When Gabriel along with the Prophet passed by Idris, the latter said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' The Prophet asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Idris." The Prophet added, "I passed by Moses and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Moses.' Then I passed by Jesus and he said, 'Welcome! O pious brother and pious Prophet.' I asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Jesus.

Then I passed by Abraham and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Abraham. The Prophet added, 'Then Gabriel ascended with me to a place where I heard the creaking of the pens." Ibn Hazm and Anas bin Malik said: The Prophet said, "Then Allah enjoined fifty prayers on my followers when I returned with this order of Allah, I passed by Moses who asked me, 'What has Allah enjoined on your followers?' I replied, 'He has enjoined fifty prayers on them.' Moses said, 'Go back to your Lord (and appeal for reduction) for your followers will not be able to bear it.' (So I went back to Allah and requested for reduction) and He reduced it to half. When I passed by Moses again and informed him about it, he said, 'Go back to your Lord as your followers will not be able to bear it.' So I returned to Allah and requested for further reduction and half of it was reduced. I again passed by Moses and he said to me: 'Return to your Lord, for your followers will not be able to bear it. So I returned to Allah and He said, 'These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.' I returned to Moses and he told me to go back once again. I replied, 'Now I feel shy of asking my Lord again.' Then Gabriel took me till we '' reached Sidrat-il-Muntaha (Lote tree of; the utmost boundry) which was shrouded in colors, indescribable. Then I was admitted into Paradise where I found small (tents or) walls (made) of pearls and its earth was of musk."


Why Allah destined this to happen?
1-Reflection that even though Allah is very strict and in His command, but Allah also Just and have mercy to all His creation.

[002:286] On no soul doth God Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

Good things are test, are we grateful? are we use it to do good or mischief..
Bad thing are test, are we losing hope? or strive to solve it....
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ranma1/2
06-19-2007, 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The fact that God is aware of what choice you will make doesn't mean free will wasn't at play on the human level. As God lives outside of time, He is already aware of what choice you made, but free will determined that choice.
at that point all it is is the illusion of free will.
You could not choose differently.
You are locked into that path.
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barney
06-19-2007, 03:47 AM
Originally Posted by August
God is outside of time. Right now, I'm eating popcorn. God knew, from the day I was born that I would be eating popcorn at this exact moment, but I still made the choice. God didn't decide I would eat popcorn, He just knew what choice I was going to make.
ARRHAHH!
I just spun round in my chair! A fraction of a second before thinking "Im not going to spin my chair!"

Heh! He diddnt see THAT!


:statisfie
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August
06-19-2007, 04:35 AM
Originally Posted by barney
ARRHAHH!
I just spun round in my chair! A fraction of a second before thinking "Im not going to spin my chair!"

Heh! He diddnt see THAT!


:statisfie
Ha, too funny! But I don't think He's fooled that easily.
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glo
06-19-2007, 06:45 AM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
:sl:

In Islam we believe Allah dont change His mind, everything from beginning already predestined till the end.
Now, this may be a tricky question for us believers.
For the sake of a useful exploration of the subject, it may be nice if the more outspoken members of the non-religious camp (yes, it you I mean! :D ) could hold back for a while and just see how the discussion develops ... (just a thought ...) :X
Otherwise we just end up getting each others' backs up ...

Now then - back to us believers:

If God has predestined everything (as both Muslims and Christians seem to agree on), what is the purpose in intercessory prayer?

Say, I am praying for God to intervene in a particular situation ...
Either my prayer is heard and he intervenes accordingly - in which case the prayer has caused him to change his mind.
Or he was going to intervene anyway - in which case, did I need to pray at all?

Come on guys, I believe that we can make this a really interesting and peaceful debate.
What do I mean, I believe ... I know we can!!! :)

Peace
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vpb
06-19-2007, 08:08 AM
Either my prayer is heard and he intervenes accordingly - in which case the prayer has caused him to change his mind.
Or he was going to intervene anyway - in which case, did I need to pray at all?
in Islam, the prayer is never lost. There are three cases when you pray,
your prayer either gets accepted very quick, or it is accepted later, or if not in this world, it will be used as reward in the other world. And having a reward to support u in the afterlife, is better than having your prayer accepted in this world. So Allah swt never loses the prayer (dua) of the muslim. We also gain from praying :)

Prophet Muhammed (saws) states: Nothing prevents predestination except Dua and nothing stretches the age except righteousness. (Ibn al-Tirmidhi)

Most of the times we do not pray because we think that Allah (swt) has already written our destiny and there is no point asking from Him when He has already decreed our lives. However, this hadith shows that if anything can intercede with our predestination, it is our dua. One of our major dreams in life is to get a great husband or wife who is perfect in every respect. Though most people contend that we are paired in heavens and it might be true, but still we should always ask from Allah (swt) to give us the best spouse who has a great character, piety, shame, beauty or whatever one desires. I have seen it personally that those who have great husbands or wives have prayed hard in the court of Allah (swt).
Making dua is always a win-win situation. If it gets accepted, then Subhanallah, we get whatever we ask for. But even if it does not get accepted, we still get the bliss and the dua gets stored for us to be weighed in our balance in the Hereafter. It is one of those extra extra extra credit points which do not have a lifeline and which always add up to our final grade even if we are in need of them or not.


Source
Reply

Keltoi
06-19-2007, 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
at that point all it is is the illusion of free will.
You could not choose differently.
You are locked into that path.
I don't think you fully understand the point. God is outside time, human beings are not. The fact that God already knows what choice you made, doesn't mean free will didn't decide the choice that you made. This goes to the major difference between an Almighty God and a lowly human being.

I think you are considering the alternate universe sort of question...what would happen if the other choice had been made. This doesn't really fit into the equation, because since God is outside time, He is already aware of the choice you will make, even if you are not.
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-19-2007, 02:02 PM
:sl:
:phew i know this thing will get trickier.

in islam we dont do prayers to ask for something..at least not a main reason or sole purpose.
i thing its easier to put it this way.

why muslim do prayers?
1-because Allah command us.
2-to prove our obedient.
3-ask forgiveness.
4-ask blessing and security in this world and hereafter.

so "gimme this,gimme that" is not a main purpose.
only hypocrite praying that way

[030:033] When trouble touches men, they cry to their Lord, turning back to Him in repentance: but when He gives them a taste of Mercy as from Himself, behold, some of them pay part-worship to other god's besides their Lord,

i thing it's not really a smart thing to do if we questioning everything since we don't know what Allah planned for us in the first place..right?
the wisdom behind all this is Allah left us HOPE for the best, never lose it and never quit trying to pray and obey him, that's what Allah love to see and that is the purpose of our existent in the first place.

[051:056] I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.

it's more than just eat, sleep, drink, watch tv,go to school, have a good job,dating,married, have sex, getting old and die.

sooner or later we are going to die, leaving behind everything we love so much in this world.:phew
Reply

skhalid
06-19-2007, 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
"God is not like men, who lie; He is not a human who changes his mind. Whatever he promises, he does; He speaks and it is done." - Numbers 23:19

"So the Lord changed his mind and did not bring on his people the disaster he threatened." - Exodus 32:14l
It is believed that whatever decision He makes is not changed..no going back..and as our fate has already been written nothing is going to be erased......
Reply

glo
06-19-2007, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
:sl:
:phew i know this thing will get trickier.

in islam we dont do prayers to ask for something..at least not a main reason or sole purpose.
i thing its easier to put it this way.

why muslim do prayers?
1-because Allah command us.
2-to prove our obedient.
3-ask forgiveness.
4-ask blessing and security in this world and hereafter.

so "gimme this,gimme that" is not a main purpose.
only hypocrite praying that way
I understand that Muslims have a greater tendency to pray as a sign of obedience God than Christians do.
Something many Christians could learn from, I am sure.
Prayer is about more than just 'asking for stuff'. It is also about expressing one's gratitude, worship, and just being in God's presence - listening rather than asking ...

But Muslims do pray for certain situation too, don't they? At least that is the impression I get when I read posts here. Is that what you would call 'making du'a'?

So, my previous question remains:
If God has predestined everything (as both Muslims and Christians seem to agree on), what is the purpose of intercessory prayer?
There is no free will in islam because Allah hold the gun and we only have two choice obey or die.
this analogy doesn't suit well because they should say like this obey or be burn.
I never knew there was no concept of free will in Islam.
You learn something new every day! :)

Peace
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-19-2007, 03:37 PM
:sl:

:D i just told you..

When we know everything is predestined, we will feel helpless without Allah and hoping sooo much that Allah predestined something good for us. it will make our faith stronger and more motivation to do all His command.

Muslim making du'a after prayer,yes! we will ask anything we need in this world and hereafter it's because:D we dont know what Allah planned for us yet, we ask an ask without fail and hoping for the best.

that is what Allah prefer and love.

[002:153] O ye who believe! seek help with patient perseverance and prayer; for God is with those who patiently persevere.

the point is 'doing' 'sincere' 'hoping'

i think not really that hard to undestand right? since we both have religion, and our religion require faith.

and when faith is strong enough we will 'doing' without complain.that "why god.." things will never being ask again.

about freewill, well, Allah already send his apostle and messenger, his book and tradition,muslim has responsibility to spread the message.

so anybody that already heard about islam should learn about it from muslim,and yea! the choice is accept or reject...but dont worry:D muslim are not obligated to kill anyone who reject...we'll leave it to Allah..but we dont have all the time in the universe to think about it...Allah limit the chance only in this world to consider about islam.
Reply

Philosopher
06-19-2007, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The fact that God is aware of what choice you will make doesn't mean free will wasn't at play on the human level. As God lives outside of time, He is already aware of what choice you made, but free will determined that choice.
What do you mean by “human level?” If God knows your fate before you are even born, that means you WILL abide by that fate, no matter what. Anything otherwise proves God has false knowledge.

The “God lives outside of time” is another weak excuse crafted by Jewish theologians. Such an explanation is meaningless. In fact, time is an essential attribute of God.
No time; no God, but the reverse is not true. That is to say that there is always time whether there is God or not.

http://atheism.about.com/od/whatisgod/a/omniscience.htm

Originally Posted by barney
Bah! I was going to use that one!

SULK!
LOL yeah it works every time!

Originally Posted by August
Ha, too funny! But I don't think He's fooled that easily.
LOL, sure [/sarcasm]. God is too afraid to confront iron chariots:

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; [but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. (Judges 1:19)
Reply

- Qatada -
06-19-2007, 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I never knew there was no concept of free will in Islam.

No, we have a freedom of choice in our life.


Try checking this link:
http://www.crescentlife.com/articles/islam/choice.htm



Peace.
Reply

Philosopher
06-19-2007, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
No, we have a freedom of choice in our life.


Try checking this link:
http://www.crescentlife.com/articles/islam/choice.htm



Peace.
That's news to me! Tell that to the apostates who got murdered for leaving Islam :raging:
Reply

barney
06-19-2007, 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
That's news to me! Tell that to the apostates who got murdered for leaving Islam :raging:
Not true Philly.

Whlist I know that religious freedom to think for muslim is banned under pain of death.

A muslim may have freedom to Think in other areas, as long as theyre not transgressing limits.

So it's more of a restriction and in certain areas an outright ban.
Reply

Abdul Fattah
06-20-2007, 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
The “God lives outside of time” is another weak excuse crafted by Jewish theologians. Such an explanation is meaningless. In fact, time is an essential attribute of God.
No time; no God,
What are you basing that upon? how is time essential to God?
I think you have a biased view of time.
I suspect the following bias:
http://www.islamicboard.com/768192-post13.html

Another thing you got wrong is causality. You say that if something is destined to happen in your life that you no longer have any freedom in it. That is to say that the causal relation between those two is:
"it is destined that you will chose that path => you can only follow that path"
However reality is:
"You chose a certain path => that path is destined for you."
Now I'd bet your thinking: that doesn't add up, because according to religion destiny is set before I make that choice. So how can the latter in two consecutive events cause the former? Well such a causality is only impossible with a time-biased view. But like we said God is independent of time.
Reply

the_middle_road
06-20-2007, 12:19 AM
:sl:

I've been browsing this forum for a while now and decided I might as well jump in the deep end. So here goes: my first post.

Originally Posted by Philosopher

1.) A being with free will, given two options, can freely choose between A and B.
2.) God is omniscient.
3.) God knows I will choose A.
4.) God cannot be wrong since an omniscient God cannot have false knowledge.
5.) From (3.) and (4.), I will choose A and cannot choose B.
6.) From (1.) and (5.), omniscience and human free will are mutually exclusive.

* Words italicized for emphasis.
The way I see it, the problem lies with number 3. We are assuming that God knows I will choose A, but we cannot make that assumption because God alone knows what is in His knowledge; He has not disclosed that to us. God knows which choice I will make but what is in His knowledge is either A or B, we do not know which. We cannot go any further with the argument until we know which choice God knows I will choose but we can never know that. The argument would only be valid if we knew that God knew I would choose A, but as I said, that is an assumption, we don't know that it is so. This is the way I see it, but I'm sure there's a flaw in my reasoning somewhere. ;)

Btw, I usually only get access to the Net on weekends so it might be a while before I can reply to this post.

Peace.
Reply

barney
06-20-2007, 12:36 AM
Hi & welcome roadie.

God, according to the major religions does know we will choose "A".

Its the Omnipotent, all knowing bit.

I personally beleive a God cant jump around in time. It would make everything totally pointless. He would just go.."Ahh! The Romans..i'm going to make them then let them smash up my people then defeat them and that will have this implication and then this will happen then this and it will all end like this.

So it's like a moviemaker making a film with nobody to watch it.
Reply

- Qatada -
06-20-2007, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
That's news to me! Tell that to the apostates who got murdered for leaving Islam :raging:

:)

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...-apostasy.html
Reply

Philosopher
06-20-2007, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Hi & welcome roadie.

God, according to the major religions does know we will choose "A".

Its the Omnipotent, all knowing bit.

I personally beleive a God cant jump around in time. It would make everything totally pointless. He would just go.."Ahh! The Romans..i'm going to make them then let them smash up my people then defeat them and that will have this implication and then this will happen then this and it will all end like this.

So it's like a moviemaker making a film with nobody to watch it.
Yes, the Quran specifically states multiple times that Allah is all-knowing.

Also, if God knew the future, then why did he send multiple revelations?
Reply

- Qatada -
06-20-2007, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Yes, the Quran specifically states multiple times that Allah is all-knowing.

Also, if God knew the future, then why did he send multiple revelations?

It is analogous to a Professor who asks his students to perform 30 minutes of studying everyday for the first week. During the second week, he 'abrogates' his initial command and asks his students to perform 1 hour of studying every day. The Professor did not make a mistake initially, nor did he react to an unforeseen event. Rather, he had always planned to give a lighter load the first week to his students, and then increase the workload the next week because he knew they would be ready for it. In fact, he had his plan for the entire course written down and recorded. So when he initially gave the order to perform 30 minutes of homework, he knew that he would later abrogate this command.


More info:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...brogation.html

If you know the concept of historical social context, then that actually makes alot of sense. :)




Regards.
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