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MuhammadRizan
06-20-2007, 01:09 PM
:sl:
Some Muslim country enforced Syariah Law, international comunity condemned islam as barbaric, midieval, intolerant religion.
christian missionary also say the same thing.

It's obvious why muslim praticed this law because it's in Quran and Hadith, God's law above manmade law. Muslim cant just pick something their like and ignore anything else, only hypocrites does that.

so my question is..

why christians don't enforce this?


And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. (Genesis 17:14)

And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.(Exodus 21:15)

And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 21:17)

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him. (Leviticus 20:9)
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. (Exodus 21:14)

Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death (Exodus 25:2)
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: (Exodus 20:4)

And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. (Leviticus 20:9-11)

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.(Leviticus 24:16)

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

i personally believe Christian don't just pick whatever suit their need, or to please other people, because they believe Bible is word of god.
so is there another reason?
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MuhammadRizan
06-21-2007, 11:06 AM
salam.

am i invisible or what?
Reply

Eric H
06-21-2007, 12:45 PM
Greetings and peace be with you MuhammadRizan;

The laws of God are a profound subject and I do not think that we shall ever fully understand them. There were no laws when Adam and Eve were created, they were given the freedom to do anything they liked apart from eat from the tree of knowledge. When Adam’s son Cain killed his brother Abel there was not a law saying thou shall not kill; so technically Cain was not breaking any laws by killing his brother.

If there are no laws then no one is guilty of doing wrong; Laws condemn people and so a person becomes guilty when they break a law.

The Ten Commandments were given to Moses many generations later, because mankind was getting more out of hand. But why did God wait for many generations before giving man the Ten Commandments?

The Old Testament and Islam seem very similar in the way their laws are written, but I believe that Jesus came to give us something greater than the Ten Commandments.

In the spirit of searching for God’s perfect law

Eric
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-21-2007, 01:31 PM
Greetings and peace be with you MuhammadRizan;
wa'alaik.

The laws of God are a profound subject and I do not think that we shall ever fully understand them.
I agree, there are wisdoms behind all Allah command, some we can see it with naked eye, some are not.

There were no laws when Adam and Eve were created, they were given the freedom to do anything they liked apart from eat from the tree of knowledge.
yep..since they live in paradise.

When Adam’s son Cain killed his brother Abel there was not a law saying thou shall not kill; so technically Cain was not breaking any laws by killing his brother
yep..

The Ten Commandments were given to Moses many generations later, because mankind was getting more out of hand.
yep..

If there are no laws then no one is guilty of doing wrong
nop..we have common sense,feelings,intelligent...we know when something is wrong...that's what Cain feels.

Laws condemn people and so a person becomes guilty when they break a law.
Laws condemn wrongdoing...i think..^o)


But why did God wait for many generations before giving man the Ten Commandments?
Allah knows best..

The Old Testament and Islam seem very similar in the way their laws are written, but I believe that Jesus came to give us something greater than the Ten Commandments.
What is that, and why?

In the spirit of searching for God’s perfect law
maybe i'm wrong, but i think it's already there.^o)..dont u think so?
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skhalid
06-21-2007, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
wa'alaik.



I agree, there are wisdoms behind all Allah command, some we can see it with naked eye, some are not.



yep..since they live in paradise.



yep..



yep..



nop..we have common sense,feelings,intelligent...we know when something is wrong...that's what Cain feels.



Laws condemn wrongdoing...i think..^o)




Allah knows best..



What is that, and why?



maybe i'm wrong, but i think it's already there.^o)..dont u think so?
maybee :-\
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Keltoi
06-21-2007, 02:08 PM
Most of the Old Testament laws were meant for the Jewish people. The New Testament is the law Christians follow. Christians believe that Christ brought about a New Covenant. That doesn't mean Christians should not obey the Ten Commandments, but if one is living a life devoted to Christ, then they are not breaking these laws to begin with.
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MuhammadRizan
06-21-2007, 03:16 PM
peace.

Christians believe that Christ brought about a New Covenant.
The New Covenant do have Laws right?^o)

That doesn't mean Christians should not obey the Ten Commandments,
So New Testament do not cancel Old Commandment right?

but if one is living a life devoted to Christ, then they are not breaking these laws to begin with.
i agree, Syariah Laws too does not effect me or majority of Muslim, since we're no adulterer, thieves,etc etc we are devout muslim (insya' Allah)...those who are punish we're convicted by a very strict standard..

but i'm not trying to be funny here:zip: because it's quite impossible no one broke His Law in 2000 years, and i've read Christian in the past do stoning blasphemer to death..

so what about Christians today?
Bible we use today is just as same as the Bible in the past, true word of God.

is it because separation church and government?

I'm assuming no because God is above all thing, ignoring, changing, or even slightest adjustment into his commandment for worldly cause is unacceptable.

so what is the reason?
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wilberhum
06-21-2007, 06:43 PM
why christians don't enforce this
Because Christian countries are not Theocracies.
We are mostly secular countries.
Secular countries enforce secular laws.
Since there is no common understanding of “god’s laws” I think it is best to leave enforcement to god.
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Eric H
06-21-2007, 09:40 PM
Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum;

Since there is no common understanding of “god’s laws” I think it is best to leave enforcement to god.
Law is truly a profound subject and I agree with your statement Wilberhum, but it poses huge moral problems. Thou shall not kill is both God’s law and secular law, so how should we leave this to God?

One of the biggest problems with the law is catching the criminal and giving him a just sentence for his crime. Very few murders are committed in front of a dozen witnesses with cameras, most murders are done in a devious way to try and avoid detection and punishment.

If there is a law for executing a murderer, should that murderer fear execution by his fellow man; or should he fear God’s punishment more?

God will know for sure if the person is truly guilty, man can only guess as to the persons guilt and intentions.

How can we be certain that the person we have sentenced to death is equally guilty through the eyes of God?

In the spirit of searching for God's perfect law

Eric
Reply

vpb
06-21-2007, 09:41 PM
Some Muslim country enforced Syariah Law, international comunity condemned islam as barbaric, midieval, intolerant religion.
christian missionary also say the same thing.

It's obvious why muslim praticed this law because it's in Quran and Hadith, God's law above manmade law. Muslim cant just pick something their like and ignore anything else, only hypocrites does that.

so my question is..

why christians don't enforce this?
:sl:

bro, Islam is the only religion that provides a constitution. Other religions provide only the belief system.
Reply

Eric H
06-21-2007, 10:02 PM
Greetings and peace be with you MuhammadRizan;

i agree, Syariah Laws too does not effect me or majority of Muslim, since we're no adulterer, thieves,etc etc we are devout muslim (insya' Allah)...those who are punish we're convicted by a very strict standard..
I agree with you that we should all strive to obey the rules of God and also the secular rules of our country freely and willingly. If we could all do this then the law would not affect any of us. But if there were a Muslim state operating under Syariah Laws would these laws be aimed at the Muslims or more towards non- Muslims who may not fear God?

In the spirit of searching for God's perfect law

Eric
Reply

snakelegs
06-21-2007, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
:sl:

bro, Islam is the only religion that provides a constitution. Other religions provide only the belief system.
actually, judaism does also. but there is no jewish state and jews believe that there won't be until moshiakh comes. (israel is not a jewish state - it is a political entity and secular.)
Reply

wilberhum
06-21-2007, 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum;
Law is truly a profound subject and I agree with your statement Wilberhum, but it poses huge moral problems. Thou shall not kill is both God’s law and secular law, so how should we leave this to God?
Why would you assume that god's laws and man's laws were mutually exclusive?
We prosecute a murder for breaking man's law and leave god to do his justice.
One of the biggest problems with the law is catching the criminal and giving him a just sentence for his crime. Very few murders are committed in front of a dozen witnesses with cameras, most murders are done in a devious way to try and avoid detection and punishment.
So? What system is perfect?
If there is a law for executing a murderer, should that murderer fear execution by his fellow man; or should he fear God’s punishment more?
God will know for sure if the person is truly guilty, man can only guess as to the persons guilt and intentions.
Not my problem. Maybe god doesn't even exist.
How can we be certain that the person we have sentenced to death is equally guilty through the eyes of God?
That is why we should leave god's justice to god.

Still, who defines "god's laws". Is god going to show up in court?
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wilberhum
06-21-2007, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
:sl:

bro, Islam is the only religion that provides a constitution. Other religions provide only the belief system.
That is exactly why I want nothing to do with it.
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Philosopher
06-21-2007, 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Because Christian countries are not Theocracies.
We are mostly secular countries.
Secular countries enforce secular laws.
Since there is no common understanding of “god’s laws” I think it is best to leave enforcement to god.
LMAO! Too bad God made these laws for humans to enforce on their states.
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wilberhum
06-21-2007, 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
LMAO! Too bad God made these laws for humans to enforce on their states.
I'm still trying to figure out why god made different laws for different groups. :rolleyes:
This group can't eat beef, that group can't eat pork.
Some have to have common prayer on Sunday, others on Saturday.
Some groups have sub-groups that god gave different laws to.
Other groups can’t even decide what some of the laws should be. :-\

Some how I’m missing these “perfect laws from god”.
Yet there is some that claim human laws are corrupt.

By the way, what is god’s law say about going 45 MPH in a school zone?
I need a good defense. :D
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vpb
06-21-2007, 11:35 PM
By the way, what is god’s law say about going 45 MPH in a school zone?
the traffic experts decide what is the maximum speed to drive in school zones, so if a kid goes in front, how fast can u stop , what is the time space to stop etc. etc.
then by Islamic law you have to follow to rulez, so you don't put in danger someone's life.
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wilberhum
06-21-2007, 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
the traffic experts decide what is the maximum speed to drive in school zones, so if a kid goes in front, how fast can u stop , what is the time space to stop etc. etc.
then by Islamic law you have to follow to rulez, so you don't put in danger someone's life.
So I can go 60 if noone is around? :-\
I think I like "anything over 45 is against the law". Seams a bit more enforceable that god's. :rolleyes:
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vpb
06-21-2007, 11:56 PM
So I can go 60 if noone is around?
I think I like "anything over 45 is against the law". Seams a bit more enforceable that god's.
look, if the experts said, in that zone you can't drive more than 40 , because it's dangerous, in this case you have to obey them, since they are the traffic experts and they are telling u the rules so you don't go more than 40 to put in danger poeple's livez. in this case muslims should not drive more than 40, even if they are alone. cuz Allah swt is allways watching.it's not just about fearing that you might get punished by paying xxx pounds. but the problem is that you have made like a convent with the traffic experts, that in order not to put in danger people's livez, you will not go more than 40, and if u break that convent , Allah will not be happy with u.
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MuhammadRizan
06-22-2007, 02:32 AM
salam.
But if there were a Muslim state operating under Syariah Laws would these laws be aimed at the Muslims or more towards non- Muslims who may not fear God?
Syariah Laws is from god, state laws is man made, some muslim country have both, most have only state laws.

And Syariah law enforced to muslim only. But non muslim living in muslim country obligated to obey state law.

One of the biggest problems with the law is catching the criminal and giving him a just sentence for his crime. Very few murders are committed in front of a dozen witnesses with cameras, most murders are done in a devious way to try and avoid detection and punishment.
Of course God did not tell us how to run investigation or how to catch em all.
God Laws are only for wrongdoers that already convicted by a strict standard.

Muslim are not chasing people to kill all the sinners,stoning people or cutting hand it's not a fun thing to do.

I'm still trying to figure out why god made different laws for different groups.
This group can't eat beef, that group can't eat pork.
Some have to have common prayer on Sunday, others on Saturday.
Some groups have sub-groups that god gave different laws to.
Other groups can’t even decide what some of the laws should be
As Muslims always said, this world are temporary testing ground, hereafter is the real one. This Law is also a test weither we can enforce it or not. God can do anything He wants, Some muslim country fear God more than international community, some hypocrite are not.

Personally, i have no problem when atheists mocking or whining about this Law since they're not believing God in the first place, being objective i can understand them, the best i can do is to explain the wisdom behind this Laws.

But when Christian does the same thing, it makes me curious, since the same or even stricker Law could be found in their own scripture.:ooh:

Allah is Perfect, His Messages are Perfect.
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snakelegs
06-22-2007, 02:41 AM
christians think that most of the laws in "the old testament" were cancelled out by new testament.
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Keltoi
06-22-2007, 02:59 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
christians think that most of the laws in "the old testament" were cancelled out by new testament.
Not only that, although that is true, but Christ also taught by example. When the crowd prepared to stone Mary Magdalene, Christ stopped them from doing it by stating "let those without sin cast the first stone". The Message of Christ is one of forgiveness and mercy.
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MuhammadRizan
06-22-2007, 10:57 AM
SALAM.

christians think that most of the laws in "the old testament" were cancelled out by new testament.
They think?^o)

Not only that, although that is true, but Christ also taught by example. When the crowd prepared to stone Mary Magdalene, Christ stopped them from doing it by stating "let those without sin cast the first stone". The Message of Christ is one of forgiveness and mercy.


"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20)

can this verse interpreted otherwise?:rolleyes:

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:40-42)

Jesus (the God Himself) hates Lawlessness, can this direct quotes from God Himself interpreted otherwise?:rolleyes:

Seems the The Laws Are Already There.:ooh:
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Keltoi
06-22-2007, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
SALAM.



They think?^o)





"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20)

can this verse interpreted otherwise?:rolleyes:

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:40-42)

Jesus (the God Himself) hates Lawlessness, can this direct quotes from God Himself interpreted otherwise?:rolleyes:

Seems the The Laws Are Already There.:ooh:
Christ is referring to the Ten Commandments, which Christians still follow. However, many other laws in the OT were altered or abolished as Christ formed a New Covenant. Examples of these are...

The laws regulating both fasting and ceremonial cleanliness are not enforced in the Kingdom of God. The reason for this is the internalization of the Law, as is evident from the utterance of Matthew 15:10-20 (See also Mark 7:14-23):
And he called the people to him and said to them, Hear and understand: not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man. … But Peter said to him, "Explain the parable to us." And he said, are you still without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and so passes on? But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, this defiles a man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man

Similarly, that portion of the Mosaic Code that regulates ritual and sacrifice, the ceremonial law, is no longer enforced. When Jesus quoted the Father, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," he again internalized the law, since mercy comes from the heart. He also placed the temple rituals in storage by making the assertion that God does not desire sacrifice (Matthew 9:11, 12:7). Then he sealed this action by allowing the Romans to utterly destroy the temple in AD 70.

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets (Matthew 22:37-40).

In many cases Christ changed the law to internalization, the best example being the laws on divorce and adultery.

Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart (Matthew 5:27).

Before faith came, we were confined by the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed, so that the law was our custodian until Christ came (Galatians 3:23).
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MuhammadRizan
06-22-2007, 03:27 PM
salam.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.


However, many other laws in the OT were altered or abolished as Christ formed a New Covenant.


isn't this contradiction?:ooh:

since Jesus is God Himself, Don't you think there is no need for Him to say"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill" since He will abolished or altered it anyway..dont you think?^o)

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man
on this part i agree...

In many cases Christ changed the law to internalization, the best example being the laws on divorce and adultery.
what is the new laws then? briefly..

Before faith came, we were confined by the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed, so that the law was our custodian until Christ came (Galatians 3:23).
so after Jesus came until now the faith of christians are perfect? and no longer need a 'custodian'?:ooh:
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Keltoi
06-22-2007, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
salam.





isn't this contradiction?:ooh:

since Jesus is God Himself, Don't you think there is no need for Him to say"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill" since He will abolished or altered it anyway..dont you think?^o)



on this part i agree...



what is the new laws then? briefly..



so after Jesus came until now the faith of christians are perfect? and no longer need a 'custodian'?:ooh:
On the issue of Christ "fulfilling" the law but not abolishing them, that is because Christ's death on the cross fulfilled the Law of Moses. While the law of Moses is perpetual, as a legal code it was undone by the Savior's sacrifice. While the Ten Commandments aren't technically to be followed by Christians, the New Testament restates 9 of them, leaving the Sabbath observance off the list. The rest of the laws were either Jewish ceremonial laws or those laws dealing with food, clothing, etc, which do not apply to Christ's New Covenant.
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wilberhum
06-22-2007, 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
look, if the experts said, in that zone you can't drive more than 40 , because it's dangerous, in this case you have to obey them, since they are the traffic experts and they are telling u the rules so you don't go more than 40 to put in danger poeple's livez. in this case muslims should not drive more than 40, even if they are alone. cuz Allah swt is allways watching.it's not just about fearing that you might get punished by paying xxx pounds. but the problem is that you have made like a convent with the traffic experts, that in order not to put in danger people's livez, you will not go more than 40, and if u break that convent , Allah will not be happy with u.
But I looking for where your virision of "God's Laws" says I can't do more than 40 in a school zone. I don't want an evil "Man made law". :-\
So where do I find it? The answer is simple. None exists. :rolleyes:
What happenes is some one decides what they think god wants. Then they call it gods law. :statisfie
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Trumble
06-22-2007, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
What happenes is some one decides what they think god wants. Then they call it gods law. :statisfie
I don't think so. I think it's more a case of somebody coming up with the social system first, and then invoking God to give it authority and persuade people to go along with it.
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wilberhum
06-22-2007, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
I don't think so. I think it's more a case of somebody coming up with the social system first, and then invoking God to give it authority and persuade people to go along with it.
Or a combination of both. Either way, I see no input from god. :-\
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MuhammadRizan
06-23-2007, 12:44 AM
salam.

On the issue of Christ "fulfilling" the law but not abolishing them, that is because Christ's death on the cross fulfilled the Law of Moses.
My bad!..because actually i think this verse is sooo straight forward...

so it does interpreted otherwise...So Fulfill actually represent Christ death on the cross, what makes Christian into that conclution?
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MuhammadRizan
06-23-2007, 12:56 AM
salam.

But I looking for where your virision of "God's Laws" says I can't do more than 40 in a school zone. I don't want an evil "Man made law".
So where do I find it? The answer is simple. None exists.
What happenes is some one decides what they think god wants. Then they call it gods law.
your question a little bit funny, well yeah! we had to admit there is no Laws from God about speed limit in school area, it's a manmade Law(i never says human Laws are evil) for safety reason, if you're cought then you'll receive that 'love letter' from police officer.

But if you exeeding speed limit and hit somebody, there is God laws.
let say you hit a children and Broke his spine.

According Islam, the children's family can choose 1 from this demands.

1-merely forgive you.
2-asking Blood money.
3-Broke your spine.

But of course, only Government can enforced this law.

i hope u got a clearer view.

:thankyou:
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wilberhum
06-23-2007, 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
salam.



your question a little bit funny, well yeah! we had to admit there is no Laws from God about speed limit in school area, it's a manmade Law(i never says human Laws are evil) for safety reason, if you're cought then you'll receive that 'love letter' from police officer.

But if you exeeding speed limit and hit somebody, there is God laws.
let say you hit a children and Broke his spine.

According Islam, the children's family can choose 1 from this demands.

1-merely forgive you.
2-asking Blood money.
3-Broke your spine.

But of course, only Government can enforced this law.

i hope u got a clearer view.

:thankyou:
The view is quite clear. All laws are man made. :?
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Eric H
06-23-2007, 04:39 AM
Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum;
The view is quite clear. All laws are man made. :?
There have always been people who do not believe in God, so they have nothing to fear from God about breaking his laws; because to them God does not exist.

They may fear man’s laws and judgements more because they know about the justice and punishments that man passes on Criminals.

However a person who has a real faith in God might think they could outwit the police but they will know for sure that they will not fool God. As MuhammadRizan quoted

i agree, Syariah Laws too does not effect me or majority of Muslim, since we're no adulterer, thieves,etc etc we are devout muslim (insya' Allah)...those who are punish we're convicted by a very strict standard..
In theory if we love God and have a fear of God we will not sin, but we are all human and we each face human temptation to break the law.

People should want to be good citizens willingly and freely, God has given us the freedom to love our neighbours as we love ourselves; but we abuse this commandment.

In the spirit of searching for God’s perfect law.

Eric
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wilberhum
06-23-2007, 07:46 PM
Eric,
In the spirit of searching for God’s perfect law.
Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.
Should we burn people at the stake if they say Jesus is not god or behead them if they say Allah is not god? Of curse we should stone homosexuals, right?
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Keltoi
06-23-2007, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Eric,

Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.
Should we burn people at the stake if they say Jesus is not god or behead them if they say Allah is not god? Of curse we should stone homosexuals, right?
One has to make a distinction between social laws, like many of the Jewish laws in the OT, to the higher moral laws, meaning the Ten Commandments. Don't kill, don't steal, etc. If those laws are followed without deviation you have a "perfect" moral society, so to speak. The problem comes into play when those laws are broken. What is the punishment? Who decides what that punishment is? That creates the problem of theocracy. As a Christian, I go by Christ's example. Christ interrupted a stoning and saved the victim. That leads me to believe that the death penalty is not the first route to be desired. However, there are obvious verses in the Bible that do indeed call for the death penalty. I don't trust men to decide these things, which is why I think a "perfect" theocracy is an oxymoron.
Reply

glo
06-23-2007, 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Eric,

Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.
Should we burn people at the stake if they say Jesus is not god or behead them if they say Allah is not god? Of curse we should stone homosexuals, right?
Wilber,

Do you think that, if secular law was not overruling religious laws in most countries, such things would still take place - even in Western countries in the 21st century? :?

You see, for me that seems a very improbable scenario ... but then I was born in a secular time under secular laws, and they are very much part of my upbringing.

To me, Jesus' teachings on loving your neighbour, forgiving your adversaries, forgiving and helping 'sinners' and those cast out by society is so clear and powerful, that I cannot imagine anything else.

If nothing else, Jesus challenged the old laws, criticised those who followed them in every detail ... saying that following the laws without having love and compassion was meaningless ...

I am reminded of this story, as an example of Jesus putting human need before God's law:
One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?" He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
(Mark 2: 23-28)
Peace
Reply

wilberhum
06-23-2007, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I think a "perfect" theocracy is an oxymoron.
I like that. :D I'm sure I will have the opportunity to use it. :thumbs_up
Reply

wilberhum
06-23-2007, 08:21 PM
Glo,
Do you think that, if secular law was not overruling religious laws in most countries, such things would still take place - even in Western countries in the 21st century?
Absolutely, positively, and without any doubt. (How’s that for an Agnostic) :D
I guess you, and many others do not understand my position. Actually it is quite simple.
Breaking “Man’s Laws” should be punished by man.
Breaking “God’s Laws” should be punished by god.
God does not need us humans to help him enforce his laws.
I think god can take care of himself.
Besides I think it is obvious that there is no common definition of all of god’s laws.
That is a major problem. :?
Reply

Eric H
06-23-2007, 10:20 PM
Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum;

Besides I think it is obvious that there is no common definition of all of god’s laws.
The definition of all God’s laws is simple, they must hang on the two greatest commandments.

The greatest commandments could be compared to a hook to hang your coat on. If the hook comes of the wall the coat falls on the floor.

Any law written must demonstrate that it puts our love for God first and our love for our neighbour second. These commandments cannot be separated because we can only show our love for God in a practical way by loving our neighbour as we love ourselves.

If we love God we must obey his commandments, so for example obeying the drink- driving laws and driving within the speed limits are good laws. If we disobey them we show a lack of love for our neighbours because we increase the chances of recklessly killing someone.

In the spirit of searching for God's perfect law.

Eric
Reply

wilberhum
06-23-2007, 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum;



The definition of all God’s laws is simple, they must hang on the two greatest commandments.

The greatest commandments could be compared to a hook to hang your coat on. If the hook comes of the wall the coat falls on the floor.

Any law written must demonstrate that it puts our love for God first and our love for our neighbour second. These commandments cannot be separated because we can only show our love for God in a practical way by loving our neighbour as we love ourselves.

If we love God we must obey his commandments, so for example obeying the drink- driving laws and driving within the speed limits are good laws. If we disobey them we show a lack of love for our neighbours because we increase the chances of recklessly killing someone.

In the spirit of searching for God's perfect law.

Eric
That is "Your" definition of god's laws. It is not universal. Why do you think that is so?
There are those that say man's laws are bad. That is why I picked on "speed limits".
There is no place where god talks about seed limits. So it is a man made law.

Now you can try to interoperate some statement, supposedly by god, and come up with a law. But that is not god’s law; it is your interpretation of what you think is god’s law. And again there is nothing universal about it.

I’m still waiting for an answer to my earlier question.
Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.
Reply

Eric H
06-24-2007, 08:20 AM
Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum

That is "Your" definition of god's laws. It is not universal. Why do you think that is so?
When you try and interpret the priority of mans law you might start with murder as that is the most final crime someone can commit. Stealing sweets from the corner shop would be a low priority.

From a Christian perception Jesus tells us what is greatest we do not have to guess and he hangs all the law and the prophets on the two greatest commandments. So if a Christian law maker was to bring out a new law today he would start off by asking; how does this new law show that we love God by loving our neighbour as we love ourselves?

In the news recently it appears some hedge fund managers are only having to pay ten percent capital gains tax on profit ranging in the hundreds of millions of pounds. Other people have to pay forty percent tax on these large gains. You could ask how do the laws that allow this to happen hang on loving God and loving our neighbour? Clearly this abuse of personal gain goes against the spirit of the greatest commandments.

The laws of God are more to protect the poor, the marginalised and disadvantaged. Mans laws tend to favour the rich and the powerful.

Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.
I am stuck for time, but I believe the answer to this rests with the parable of the Good Samaritan.

In the spirit of searching for God’s perfect law

Eric
Reply

wilberhum
06-24-2007, 04:42 PM
Eric,
Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.
Can't answer it? So what is the value of your so called "god's laws"?
Men have it covered. We can set the speed limit to.
Reply

Keltoi
06-24-2007, 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Eric,

Can't answer it? So what is the value of your so called "god's laws"?
Men have it covered. We can set the speed limit to.
Then the question becomes how many secular laws have their roots in religious law?
Reply

wilberhum
06-24-2007, 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Then the question becomes how many secular laws have their roots in religious law?
Or how many religious laws have there root in secular needs? :?
Reply

Keltoi
06-24-2007, 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Or how many religious laws have there root in secular needs? :?
Secular needs? Perhaps human need. I think labeling them "secular" tends to suggest that these laws were somehow separate from religious influence, which was not the case. I agree on this though, laws are used to create a stable society, and in that vein these laws have more to do with human needs than God's needs. This fully secular outlook on law and punishment is a fairly new phenomena, as most societies based their laws on religious law. Not saying I want a theocracy or anything, just pointing out the obvious connection between most historical laws and religious influence.
Reply

wilberhum
06-24-2007, 08:34 PM
Keltoi,
We probably have an unsurpassable obstacle. I believe that all religions are man made.

Therefore religious laws were created for an endless number of reasons.

But I don’t believe that any of them are from god.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-24-2007, 11:18 PM
When was the idea of "secularism" introduced may I ask? I'm pretty sure it didnt exist a very long time ago or that word even.
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-25-2007, 02:16 AM
salam.

Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.
your question is flawed!..the Laws we're talking here are already in existent thousands years before any secularist could even form any kind of government and write their own constitution or Laws.

But i'm going to answer it anyway:D ...but i'm talking about Islamic Laws.

Islamic Laws are commanded by Allah through Noble Quran and His last prophet's Hadith., and the main principles are Solution and Prevention.

i want to give 1 example here.

As we know Islam completely Forbid intoxicant Drink.

[002:219] They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth God Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider.

Volume 7, Book 69, Number 492a:

Narrated 'Aisha:

Allah's Apostle was asked about Al-Bit a liquor prepared from honey which the Yemenites used to drink. Allah's Apostle said, "All drinks that intoxicate are unlawful (to drink)."

So the punishment is..

Volume 8, Book 81, Number 767:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet lashed a drunk with dateleaf stalks and shoes. And Abu Bakr gave a drunk forty lashes.

it's because, (btw..Christians pay attention)

Volume 8, Book 81, Number 793:

Narrated Ubada bin As-Samit:

I gave the pledge of allegiance to the Prophet with a group of people, and he said, "I take your pledge that you will not worship anything besides Allah, will not steal, will not commit infanticide, will not slander others by forging false statements and spreading it, and will not disobey me in anything good. And whoever among you fulfill all these (obligations of the pledge), his reward is with Allah. And whoever commits any of the above crimes and receives his legal punishment in this world, that will be his expiation and purification. But if Allah screens his sin, it will be up to Allah, Who will either punish or forgive him according to His wish." Abu Abdullah said: "If a thief repents after his hand has been cut off, the his witness well be accepted. Similarly, if any person upon whom any legal punishment has been inflicted, repents, his witness will be accepted."

as i said in earlier post Muslim do not stone people etc etc etc for nothing.
as we know all the prosecutions are done in public, so people will see the consecuences and think at least twice for doing any unlawful acts.

i hope some secularist will return me a favour:D .

is there any secular Laws offer any practical solution that can prevent.

1-Drunken driver existent.
2-alcoholicsm.
3-Drunk husband beating wife.
4-Liver failure.

and because Islamic Laws also covered so many field..i want to add
is there any secular Laws offer any practical solution that can prevent..

1-Abortion.
2-Single defenceless unmarried mother .
3-Mistress existent.
4-Divorce.

and back to the topic..

Christian still not giving the answer to my questions.:-[
Reply

wilberhum
06-25-2007, 03:59 PM
your question is flawed!..the Laws we're talking here are already in existent thousands years before any secularist could even form any kind of government and write their own constitution or Laws.
Yes, I forgot about all those laws that Apollo brought us. :skeleton: :? :D
Reply

Eric H
06-25-2007, 04:08 PM
Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum,

A law of God must be a law that would apply here on Earth and also through eternal life after death.

Thou shall not kill is a law that applies to us here on Earth because we are mortal.

But how would the law of not killing apply to us if we become immortal in a greater life after death?

What laws would make any sense to immortals?

In the spirit of searching for God’s perfect law.

Eric
Reply

wilberhum
06-25-2007, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum,

A law of God must be a law that would apply here on Earth and also through eternal life after death.

Thou shall not kill is a law that applies to us here on Earth because we are mortal.

But how would the law of not killing apply to us if we become immortal in a greater life after death?

What laws would make any sense to immortals?

In the spirit of searching for God’s perfect law.

Eric
God’s laws this, god’s laws that. :?
You intemperate what you think are gods laws.

If an Omni pant god gave us laws I think we would know what they are?
So why isn’t there consensus on what god’s laws are? :rollseyes

The advantage of “taking god’s side” is you can say any thing you want and every one understands that you can’t be proven wrong.
I can even say god enjoys our problems because he in mean spirited and you can’t prove me wrong.

You can say, “My Holy Book says this” but most people don’t think “Your Holy Book” is right. There is no commonly expectable way to determine what “god’s laws” is.

When you get into a legal system, you can not make general statements that can be interpreted a thousand different ways by a thousand different people. Some group must interpret the laws in an exact manner. The second that is done, they are no longer god’s law. :D

So I guess you need god to come down and run the courts, create a theocracy, of just depend on man’s laws. I like the latter. :thumbs_up
Reply

Skavau
06-25-2007, 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
When was the idea of "secularism" introduced may I ask? I'm pretty sure it didnt exist a very long time ago or that word even.
The Enlightenment I would imagine strongly assisted the rise of Secularism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enlightenment

The actual term was coined by an English writer in the 19th century.
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-26-2007, 03:13 AM
Salam.

Yes, I forgot about all those laws that Apollo brought us
Just great, i'm humiliating myself right? so actually Apollo is the first secularist that form and ruled a secular government separated from any kind of religion.+o(

You can say, “My Holy Book says this” but most people don’t think “Your Holy Book” is right. There is no commonly expectable way to determine what “god’s laws” is.
so this is the basic of your argument right? well, you should spend some of your time saving mankind from this false so called holy scripture.

Assumption is not enough, it's not even fair, you said we're not supposed to be right just because we believe in Holy Book, maybe you're right and we need someone to enlighten us.

But we could apply it to you, you're not supposed to be right just because you don't believe in Holy Scripture.

I dont know About Bible, But if you ask any Muslim about what is the proof Noble Quran is Word of God, we will say The Noble Quran itself is miracle.

if u wan't to debunk us once and for all, make sure u learn Arabic then Quran also give you the way to do it,
that 'make 1 sura like quran' challenge still on even after 1400 years.

or you can make special website to debunk(by Fact) one by one all Harun Yahya supposed Miracle of Noble Quran in his website.

or just do somethin',

:omg:
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-26-2007, 11:31 AM
Salam.

I'm suggesting, if anybody had problem believing God's Law to start a new thread and we can work from there.

i start this thread to ask some clarification why are muslim being critisized by christian just because we practised the Laws of god, at the same time the same or even stricker Laws could be found in their scripture too.

We've been off topic for days now just to prove our proof to people that actually have so much problem with religion.

i hope u guys dont mind.:omg:
Reply

wilberhum
06-26-2007, 05:24 PM
But if you ask any Muslim about what is the proof Noble Quran is Word of God, we will say The Noble Quran itself is miracle.
Some people believe that Moby-Dick is proof that whales are evil.
Some people believe that an alien space ship is going to come and take us away. (But I think they killed themselves)
Belief and proof are two different things.
If you don't understand the difference, that is not my problem.
What you believe is proof, about 80% of the world believes is false.
So until Islam rules the world, you loose.
Reply

Eric H
06-26-2007, 06:15 PM
Gretings and peace be with you wilberhum;
Belief and proof are two different things.
God can still exist fully and totally even if you do not have proof.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric
Reply

Eric H
06-26-2007, 06:22 PM
Gretings and peace be with you wilberhum;
Belief and proof are two different things.
God can still exist fully and totally even if you do not have proof.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-26-2007, 06:38 PM
salam,

Some people believe that Moby-Dick is proof that whales are evil.
i assure you it's not me.

Some people believe that an alien space ship is going to come and take us away. (But I think they killed themselves)
it's not me either.

Belief and proof are two different things.
Belief needs Proof..Noble Quran is all you need.

If you don't understand the difference, that is not my problem.
i completely aware the difference..thanks anyway.

What you believe is proof, about 80% of the world believes is false.
because 80% of the world still can't disprove my believe....duh!

So until Islam rules the world, you loose.
eat right, workout regularly and make completely sure you're not going to die so soon, i will PM you when we rule the world..deal?

:D
Reply

wilberhum
06-26-2007, 06:44 PM
Deal!
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-26-2007, 06:54 PM
salam.

Deal!
that's the spirit...i'm sorry if i offended you...i hate making enemy.
Reply

glo
06-26-2007, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Keltoi,
We probably have an unsurpassable obstacle. I believe that all religions are man made.

Therefore religious laws were created for an endless number of reasons.

But I don’t believe that any of them are from god.
Hi Wilber

How, if at all, do you think God manifests himself in your life? :?
(Be as specific as you can be ... :D )

Peace
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-26-2007, 07:09 PM
salam,

hi glo! long time no see lol....plz dont ask him that....i just make a deal with wilberhum minutes ago...i dont want this thread derailed again.
Reply

wilberhum
06-26-2007, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Hi Wilber

How, if at all, do you think God manifests himself in your life? :?
(Be as specific as you can be ... :D )

Peace
Since this has nothing to do with so called "god's laws", I will PM you.

That is assuming that MuhammadRizan isn't going to be ruling the world any time soon. :rollseyes
Reply

wilberhum
06-26-2007, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
salam.



that's the spirit...i'm sorry if i offended you...i hate making enemy.
No offence no enemy. I speak my mind, you speak yours. Isn't that what we do here? :thumbs_up
I was not trying to be short with the short answer. A short answer was all that was needed. We were obviously at an impass.
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-26-2007, 07:49 PM
salam.

so what about Christians today?
Bible we use today is just as same as the Bible in the past, true word of God.

is it because separation church and government?

I'm assuming no because God is above all thing, ignoring, changing, or even slightest adjustment into his commandment for worldly cause is unacceptable.

so what is the reason?
i'm asking biblical reason and latest Laws that Jesus teach(briefly!) especially for the major sin.
i believe Christian don't merely ask the sinner to repent and that's it, end of story! am i right?

Not only that, although that is true, but Christ also taught by example. When the crowd prepared to stone Mary Magdalene, Christ stopped them from doing it by stating "let those without sin cast the first stone". The Message of Christ is one of forgiveness and mercy.
i'm curious what actually Mary Magdalene did?did she really guilty or something?
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-28-2007, 11:47 AM
[s]???[/s]
Reply

wilberhum
06-28-2007, 04:39 PM
i'm curious what actually Mary Magdalene did?did she really guilty or something?
There is no evidence that Mary Magdalene was ever anything but a pious worman.
Reply

Umar001
06-28-2007, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
salam.

your question a little bit funny, well yeah! we had to admit there is no Laws from God about speed limit in school area, it's a manmade Law(i never says human Laws are evil) for safety reason, if you're cought then you'll receive that 'love letter' from police officer.

But if you exeeding speed limit and hit somebody, there is God laws.
let say you hit a children and Broke his spine.

According Islam, the children's family can choose 1 from this demands.

1-merely forgive you.
2-asking Blood money.
3-Broke your spine.

But of course, only Government can enforced this law.

i hope u got a clearer view.

:thankyou:
So Brother above, do you think there could be any principles, if fiqh for example, which then can be applied to make laws to cover new matters? If there is such a thing then would that no be obeying God's law?

As for the rest of the thread, I think it's amazing, I have never understood some views. God gave laws in the past in the OT, instead of using them, some rather make their own laws and use them instead? Is it because the laws given to those in the past are bad? What is it that makes people turn away from them?
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-28-2007, 06:54 PM
:sl:

So Brother above, do you think there could be any principles, if fiqh for example, which then can be applied to make laws to cover new matters? If there is such a thing then would that no be obeying God's law?
as you can see in Islam we cannot altered something that already Fixed in Quran or Hadith because it's Directly from God.

The Muftis will makes ruling with basic usul fiqh method

1. The Qur'an

2. The Sunnah

as to covers new matter.

Thus, we may state that the concept of Ijtihid or "opinion", at that stage went no further than one of the following:

1. Applying one or another of the possible meanings in cases where a sentence may lend itself to two or more interpretations, e.g. when the Prophet (PBUH) ordered the Muslims to pray among Banu Qurayzah.

2. Comparative Qiyas; which deals with a matter by comparing it with another, similar matter which is dealt with in the Qur'an or Sunnah. For example, the Qiyas of 'Ammar who compared the case of Tayammum when in a state of Janabah to Ghusl, and therefore rubbed his whole body with dust.16

3. Ijtihad by taking into account something which is potentially beneficial; or prohibiting something which could lead to wrongdoing; or deriving a particular ruling from general statements; or adopting a specific interpretation; and so on.

Can we call a new laws, Laws of God?

Yes, but it'll be indirectly.

let's say Drugs.

Drugs are not mention in 2 main source, therefore Muftis must use the 3rd option.

We can Qiyas it with Liquor=intoxicant, using Drugs also harms our health and Allah prohibited doing something that harm ourself and others and so on.

lets say speeding, it's also dangerous for ourself and others..

this is oversimplified of course, usul fiqh is very broad subject.
and i dont want to claim myself as completely able to discuss about that.

But the basic point is.

Basic Laws in Quran and Hadis stand still.
New Laws are only for new Matter.

hope that help,:)
Reply

Umar001
06-28-2007, 06:59 PM
Well if you have spoken truth then the new laws are derived from sources which the Allah has approved of, thus in reality it would fall under the law of God since God has provided mankind a way to derive rulings. Thanks for your time bro.
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-30-2007, 07:31 AM
Salam.

There is no evidence that Mary Magdalene was ever anything but a pious worman.
that's what i've read too, so no wonder Jesus saves her.
but what if it's not her, other woman that really guilty without any doubt?

i still don't have the answer.

i'm asking biblical reason and latest Laws that Jesus teach(briefly!) especially for the major sin.
i believe Christian don't merely ask the sinner to repent and that's it, end of story! am i right?
Reply

wilberhum
06-30-2007, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Well if you have spoken truth then the new laws are derived from sources which the Allah has approved of, thus in reality it would fall under the law of God since God has provided mankind a way to derive rulings. Thanks for your time bro.
Now we get "god's laws" by people speaking for god. Well god told Bush to invade Iraq so I guess it is a good thing. :skeleton:
Reply

Yanal
06-30-2007, 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
:sl:

bro, Islam is the only religion that provides a constitution. Other religions provide only the belief system.
Asalam alkum yes i beleieve that too
Reply

Umar001
06-30-2007, 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Now we get "god's laws" by people speaking for god. Well god told Bush to invade Iraq so I guess it is a good thing. :skeleton:
And what an 'interesting' God he has.
Reply

Yanal
06-30-2007, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
And what an 'interesting' God he has.
Asalam alkum yeh i never noticed now your god(which is obviously not the real god) gives laws how tell me
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-30-2007, 05:39 PM
salam.

well..we can derive ruling from God's source.
not by vision or hearin' voice in my head lol.

in Bush's case, hmmm...i dont know..i've never heard he said that on news..
he did?
Reply

Yanal
06-30-2007, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
salam.

well..we can derive ruling from God's source.
not by vision or hearin' voice in my head lol.

in Bush's case, hmmm...i dont know..i've never heard he said that on news..
he did?
Asalam alakum that is called a consious in your brain/mind
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-30-2007, 05:52 PM
yahh..great..

Bush attack Iraq coz his consious mind told him to do so...
Reply

wilberhum
06-30-2007, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
And what an 'interesting' God he has.
Na, his made up god is not more interesting than any other god that some man has made up.
Reply

Joe98
07-01-2007, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
Basic Laws in Quran and Hadis stand still.

The people of the west don’t question the laws of Islam. Its is the punishments that are considered barbaric.


The laws of the old testament stand today. It’s the punishments that are barbaric.

Originally Posted by
And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be punished

This law has not changed



Originally Posted by
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall be punished

This law has not changed


Originally Posted by
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: (Exodus 20:4)

This law has not changed



Originally Posted by
And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be punished

This law has not changed
Reply

MuhammadRizan
07-02-2007, 05:51 AM
Salam.

yes..its seems ur right..

but Law and Punishment are one.

in the OT and the Quran, Jews and Muslim are obligated to enforced that Law&punishment,
No method are given too dismis this Laws&punishment.

so to the people that believing their God wholeheartedly, it's obligation! period!
Reply

Joe98
07-02-2007, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
but Law and Punishment are one.

No they are not. We are supposed to be civilised.

Tell me, under Islamic law, what is the prescribed method of execution?

-
Reply

MuhammadRizan
07-03-2007, 01:37 AM
Salam.

No they are not. We are supposed to be civilised.
yes they are, that's why even a secular government makes Law and at the same time they build prison..prison is not a happy place.

Law without punishment is illogical.

Tell me, under Islamic law, what is the prescribed method of execution?
i will tell you the most barbaric one(according to you).

Stoning to married(with somebody else) adulterer couple after convicted with 4 reliable eyewitness.
Reply

bogomip
07-03-2007, 03:46 PM
Man does not know gods law, man is to easily deceived by satan,
Reply

Umar001
07-05-2007, 10:19 AM
Originally Posted by bogomip
Man does not know gods law, man is to easily deceived by satan,
That would then mean man is not punishable for not establishing them, so he is not punishable for commiting adultery or homosexuality?
Reply

bogomip
07-05-2007, 10:22 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
That would then mean man is not punishable for not establishing them, so he is not punishable for commiting adultery or homosexuality?
you read a lot into my statement, too much, and your logic is flawed,

do you know Gods law ?
Reply

Umar001
07-05-2007, 11:05 AM
Originally Posted by bogomip
you read a lot into my statement, too much, and your logic is flawed,
Can you tell me what logic of mine is flawed, I'd appriciate it.

Originally Posted by bogomip
do you know Gods law ?
I believe God's law is in the Qur'an and Sunnah of Muhammad. I don't know all of it and every detail though, still trying to.
Reply

bogomip
07-05-2007, 12:00 PM
That would then mean man is not punishable for not establishing them, so he is not punishable for commiting adultery or homosexuality?
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Can you tell me what logic of mine is flawed, I'd appriciate it.



I believe God's law is in the Qur'an and Sunnah of Muhammad. I don't know all of it and every detail though, still trying to.
IMO man does not and can not know Gods law, so man can not be punished for something he does not know, thats where I think your logic is flawed.

Some men think that they know what Gods law is but I doubt that they do, they interpret scripture and think it is Gods law, but how can man know Gods law, he cant IMO.
Reply

Umar001
07-05-2007, 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by bogomip
IMO man does not and can not know Gods law, so man can not be punished for something he does not know, thats where I think your logic is flawed.
So wait am confused, are you saying that man will be punished for something he did not know?
Reply

bogomip
07-05-2007, 12:32 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
So wait am confused, are you saying that man will be punished for something he did not know?
no, I never said that ?
Reply

Pygoscelis
07-05-2007, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
Stoning to married(with somebody else) adulterer couple after convicted with 4 reliable eyewitness.
I'm curious about the mechanics of that.

Are these eyewitnesses then prosecuted for being peeping toms?

Or does this only ever get convictions when people make out in the streets for all to see? Has this ever had a conviction in the past say 100 years or is it something people "believe in" but don't practice (like the Christians regarding all the bible's prescriptions for stonings?)

And you said stoning, do you mean stoning to death?
Reply

MuhammadRizan
07-21-2007, 05:24 AM
salam.

I'm curious about the mechanics of that.
married person that commited adultery will be stone to death if he/she convicted by 4 reliable eyewitness or maybe in the modern days-video.

Are these eyewitnesses then prosecuted for being peeping toms?
eyewitness also will be question their reliability in court...if they are doubtful person they will be dismiss...if they're cought lying they will be cane in public.

Or does this only ever get convictions when people make out in the streets for all to see?
this is new lesson for u bro...means it's not that easy to stone people to death..anti-islamist will give u the impressions that mouzlem will kill all sinner and all infidel without hesitation because koran said so..but as we know in reality it's not that easy.,.there is procedure, consideration, trial and other thing.

Has this ever had a conviction in the past say 100 years
i don't know, stoning event is so rare even at the times of Muhammad 1400 years ago..but there is couple case in this modern day..just google it.

or is it something people "believe in" but don't practice (like the Christians regarding all the bible's prescriptions for stonings?)
yea this type of sickness has already haunted some muslim leader today..i dont know about other country..but here in Malaysia our leader is basically a sissy...they fear international community more than Allah...

hope that help.

p/s ur avatar freaks me out.:hiding:
Reply

- Qatada -
07-21-2007, 03:53 PM
That issues been addressed in this thread :)


http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...effect-me.html




The punishment of stoning is the hadd punishment for the married adulterer, which essentially entails that it functions exclusively as a deterrent. Here's why. To apply this punishment you need four witnesses to the actual act of penetration who observed it from four different angles and if there is even the slightest contradiction in the most minute details of their testimony, they are punished with eighty lashes for false accusation of adultery. Thus, the implementation of the hadd punishment for zina is a practical impossibility. As the fatwâ committee under the supervision of Shaykh 'Abdul-Wahâb At-Turaryrî notes:
It is not enough for four people to show up at court and give testimony. The witnesses and their backgrounds have to be carefully scrutinized by the courts to determine their trustworthiness and honesty. They have to be able to demonstrate that they saw the crime. It is not easy to explain how one was able to witness such an act without being guilty of any wrongdoing oneself. The witnesses have to see actual sexual penetration. This is not an easy thing to explain.

If the condition of four witnesses of determined trustworthiness is not fulfilled, each of those who accused the person of adultery is given 80 lashes with a whip as the punishment for bearing false witness.

Allah says: “And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 4]

The punishments for fornication and adultery are designed more to protect society from the open practice of licentious sexual behavior than they are designed to punish people.
It is nearly impossible to get a conviction for adultery except in a case where it is carried out in public for all eyes to see. With this threat of severe punishment, people will keep their evil deeds concealed and society as a whole will be protected.
It is worth noting that in the 1400 years of Islamic history, these stringent conditions have never been met even once. And due to the deterrent effect, sexual immorality is suffocated and eradicated in an Islamic society.

In spite of all this, if the impossibility became reality and the punishment were to be carried out, then how would it be done? For the person who is convicted of such a heinous licentious act they would be placed in a pit and pelted to death while covered by a cloth so that their 'awrah is not exposed. If it is by confession and not conviction, they would have the opportunity to retract their confession at any point in time and so they would not be placed in a pit. No one is allowed to curse the person who undergoes this or express pleasure.

For the reasons outlined above, it is evident that whatever movie you have seen could by no stretch of the imagination be construed as Islamic, as this punishment is a practical impossibility and even then would never occur in the manner described.



http://www.islamicboard.com/591159-post9.html (Stoning)
Reply

tears4husain
07-21-2007, 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you MuhammadRizan;

The laws of God are a profound subject and I do not think that we shall ever fully understand them. There were no laws when Adam and Eve were created, they were given the freedom to do anything they liked apart from eat from the tree of knowledge. When Adam’s son Cain killed his brother Abel there was not a law saying thou shall not kill; so technically Cain was not breaking any laws by killing his brother.

If there are no laws then no one is guilty of doing wrong; Laws condemn people and so a person becomes guilty when they break a law.

The Ten Commandments were given to Moses many generations later, because mankind was getting more out of hand. But why did God wait for many generations before giving man the Ten Commandments?

The Old Testament and Islam seem very similar in the way their laws are written, but I believe that Jesus came to give us something greater than the Ten Commandments.

In the spirit of searching for God’s perfect law

Eric
:sl: that is not true cain will get part of the punishment for every unjust murder.Matthews5:17-18; jesus(isa) said he did not come to change the laws of the old, but to fulfill them.
Reply

MuhammadRizan
07-22-2007, 01:06 AM
salam,
that is not true cain will get part of the punishment for every unjust murder.Matthews5:17-18; jesus(isa) said he did not come to change the laws of the old, but to fulfill them.
they said 'fulfill' means 'Die in the cross'...so after that 'fulfillment' you dont need the law of Moses...then u can live happily ever after...

they interpreted somethin' that don't need interpretation.
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tears4husain
07-22-2007, 04:00 AM
:sl: even though it cant be done I say prove it to me!:Evil:
Reply

Pygoscelis
07-23-2007, 07:20 AM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
p/s ur avatar freaks me out.:hiding:
Dogs freak you out?

Thats my doggie after his bath.
Reply

MuhammadRizan
07-26-2007, 12:54 AM
salam.

i have bad history with dog u know...they almost eat me alive when i was little..lol
Reply

IcuFusion
07-26-2007, 02:02 AM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
salam.



married person that commited adultery will be stone to death if he/she convicted by 4 reliable eyewitness or maybe in the modern days-video.



eyewitness also will be question their reliability in court...if they are doubtful person they will be dismiss...if they're cought lying they will be cane in public.



this is new lesson for u bro...means it's not that easy to stone people to death..anti-islamist will give u the impressions that mouzlem will kill all sinner and all infidel without hesitation because koran said so..but as we know in reality it's not that easy.,.there is procedure, consideration, trial and other thing.



i don't know, stoning event is so rare even at the times of Muhammad 1400 years ago..but there is couple case in this modern day..just google it.



yea this type of sickness has already haunted some muslim leader today..i dont know about other country..but here in Malaysia our leader is basically a sissy...they fear international community more than Allah...

hope that help.

p/s ur avatar freaks me out.:hiding:
Can i make you one simple question ?!! Can you tell me where in Quran (Koran) is steted that adulters need to be stoned to death ?!!
Dont tell me that you are one of them , that belive that quranic verse that was dealing with Rajm ( stoning ) was eaten by a goat ?!!!

IceFusion , with respect
Reply

MuhammadRizan
07-26-2007, 02:39 AM
salam.

In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,


Fornication (zina) and that which leads to fornication is completely unlawful and considered a major sin. The Qur’an and Sunnah are quite clear about this.


Allah Most High says:


“Do not come (even) near to adultery, for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road to other evils.” (Surah al-Isra, 32)


Thus, fornication and whatever that leads to it, such as touching, kissing, embracing, informal interaction are all considered to be major sins, hence must be avoided at all times.


As far as the Islamic legal punishment for fornication is concerned, the Hanafi jurist (faqih), Imam al-Mawsili (Allah have mercy on him) states:


“It (legal punishment) is established by evidence and confession. Evidence is that four people give testimony against a man and woman that they committed fornication. When they testify (in the courts), the judge (qadhi) will inquire from the witnesses the particulars and details of what took place, the place of incident, the time of incident, and the identity of the woman involved. When they give details of all of this and they state that the woman was unlawful upon the man in every way, and that they testify the observing of sexual intercourse taking place like they see a Kohl needle entering the Kohl bottle, and the four witnesses are considered upright both privately and publicly, then the judge will give the order for the legal punishment to be enforced upon the perpetrators.” (See: al-Ikhtiyar li ta’lil al-Mukhtar, 2/312-313)


We can see from the above text (and other such texts in the books of Fiqh) that there are detailed and stringent conditions for the legal punishment of fornication and adultery to be enforced upon an individual. If these conditions are not met, the punishment will not be enforced.


One should always keep in mind the objective and spirit of Shariah concerning the various legal punishments. The idea is not to enforce the punishment and make people suffer; rather the objective is to prevent harm, corruption and immorality in the society. Thus, legal punishments act as deterrents more than actually get people punished.


Allah Most High says:


“In the law of retaliation there is (saving of) life to you, O you men of understanding.” (Surah al-Baqarah, V: 179)


An example of this which comes to mind is that we see speed cameras being placed on many roads and streets (especially here in the UK!) in order to deter people from speeding in their vehicles. The idea behind these speed cameras is not to catch people speeding, rather to prevent people from speeding and causing accidents. If the aim was to catch people speeding, there would be no warning signs indicating that a camera is present. However, we see that whenever a speed camera is placed, many warnings are given that “beware this road has a speed camera”. Many of the times, the camera is not even in operation, hence, the idea is to stop people speeding rather than catch and punish them.


The same is with the various legal punishments prescribed by Shariah, in that they are prescribed to prevent people from committing unlawful actions and corrupting the society, yet the rules and conditions for a legal punishment to be enforced are so stringent that very rarely would an individual be punished. The legal punishment is considered a deterrent, but if an individual did involve him/herself in some unlawful activity, the objective now is not to get the individual punished rather to save him/her from the punishment.


This will become more evident with the following incident that took place in the time of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace):


Sayyiduna Abu Hurayra (Allah be pleased with him) narrates: “A man from amongst the people came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) while he (the Messenger of Allah) was sitting in the Masjid, and addressed him, saying: “O Messenger of Allah! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse.” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) turned his face away from him. The man came to that side to which the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) had turned his face, and said: “O Messenger of Allah! I have committed illegal intercourse.” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) turned his face to the other side, and the man came to that side. When he confessed four times, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) called him and said: “Are you insane?” He said: “No, O Messenger of Allah!” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Are you married?” He said: “Yes, O Messenger of Allah!” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said (to the people): “Take him away and stone him to death.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 6439)


The above incident shows the importance of trying to avert a legal punishment as much as possible. The man came and confessed to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) that he had committed unlawful sexual intercourse, yet the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) ignored him, in order that he may change his mind.


Similarly, Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that When Ma’iz ibn Malik came to the Messenger of Allah (and confessed that he had committed adultery), the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to him: “Probably you have only kissed (the woman), or touched, or looked at her?” He said: “No, O Messenger of Allah!” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), using no euphemism, said: “Did you have sexual intercourse with her?” The narrator said: At that moment, (i.e. after he confessed that he had sexual intercourse), the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) ordered that he be stoned.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 6438)

This famous incident of Ma’iz ibn Malik also gives the same message, in that the Imam should try his best to avoid the legal punishment. This is the reason why it is recommended to say to the one who confesses committing fornication that “You may only have touched, you may only have kissed, are you sure you had sex, think again properly of what you are saying and think of the consequences of your confession, and other such things.


This (trying to avert a legal punishment) has been explicitly mentioned in one Hadith. Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Keep the Muslims away from punishments as much as possible. If there is any way out for an offender to escape punishment, acquit him. It is better for a judge to make an error in acquittal than in conviction.” (Sunan Tirmidhi, no: 1424)


Due to the forgoing, the Fuqaha have laid down (based on the guidelines of the Qur’an and Sunnah) certain strict rules and conditions in order for a punishment to be established or enforced. These strict conditions can be seen in all of the various penalties that have been imposed. The following are certain rules and conditions for the punishment of committing adultery to be enforced, as mentioned in the books of Hanafi jurisprudence:


1) It is actual vaginal sexual intercourse (and not anal or oral intercourse) that takes place between a man and a woman.


2) The man and woman involved in this unlawful sexual intercourse are not married; neither is the woman a slave-girl of the man.


3) It is proven by four people testifying that they clearly observed the couple engaged in unlawful sexual intercourse without any doubt or ambiguity. They are able to say that they saw their private parts meet like the Kohl needle entering the Kohl bottle. The judge would ask them all the various details concerning the time and location of the incident, and who were the people involved and other such matters, in order to remove any doubt.


4) If the four witnesses take back their testimony before the actual punishment is enforced, then the punishment will be abandoned, and they (witnesses) will be punished for the crime of false accusation.


5) The witnesses are not allowed to delay their testimony from the time of the incident to the time of testifying. If they delayed testifying in the courts, the punishment will not be enforced, unless they were very distant from the Imam hence the delay was due to them travelling to the Imam.


6) The punishment of adultery is also proven if the perpetrator him/herself confesses to be guilty of the crime. He/she must be sane, mature (baligh) and must confess four separate times in four separate sessions that the crime was committed. The Imam will try to wave away the punishment as much as possible by saying to the confessor that “you may have only touched or kissed” and other such statements. The Imam will also inquire about the various details of the incident, and when the confessor explains everything without leaving any doubt or ambiguity, the punishment will be enforced.


7) If the confessor takes back his words before the punishment is enforced or during the punishment, he/she will be released and set free. (See: al-Ikhtiyar li ta’lil al-Mukhtar, 2/311-316 & other major Hanafi Fiqh references)


The legal punishment:


If the crime of fornication is carried out by an individual who is sane, mature, Muslim and is married to a spouse who is also sane, mature, Muslim, and that their marriage is consummated, then the legal punishment is that he/she will be stoned to death (rajm). The Imam, witnesses and other Muslims would take part in the stoning. If the witnesses refuse to take part in stoning the perpetrator, the punishment will be dropped, as this would be considered a sign of them taking back their testimony.


If the crime of fornication is carried out by an individual who does not qualify to be in the above category, then the punishment is that he/she will be given 100 lashes. These whips and lashes will be spread out over the body, avoiding the head, face and the private parts. A pregnant woman will not be whipped until she gives birth to her child and after her post natal bleeding (nifas). However, if she is to be stoned, then this may be carried out straight after giving birth.


Finally, one should remember that it is not necessary in order for one’s sin to be forgiven that he/she receives the legal punishment (hadd) for the sin committed. The reason being is that one is not obliged to confess that he/she committed adultery; hence one may keep the sin hidden and not inform the Islamic judge about it. Also the various Islamic legal punishments (hudud) are only carried out in an Islamic state (dar al-Islam) by the Imam, thus repenting to Allah Almighty will be sufficient.


The above are just some of the necessary elements concerning the legal punishment of fornication and adultery. There are other details also, but time does not allow me to discuss them, hence the above should be sufficient for now, Insha Allah.


And Allah knows best


Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari
Darul Iftaa, Leicester, UK
The verse about stoning adulterer is not in the quran...it only stated in Muhammad sunnah...is it a problem? nope! coz i stated earlier that source of God's Law in from Quran and Sunnah...The word of God and His inspired Prophet.

Conclusion.

The goat is not guilty.:p
Reply

IcuFusion
07-26-2007, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
salam.



The verse about stoning adulterer is not in the quran...it only stated in Muhammad sunnah...is it a problem? nope! coz i stated earlier that source of God's Law in from Quran and Sunnah...The word of God and His inspired Prophet.

Conclusion.

The goat is not guilty.:p
I guess you dont understand me brother. First of all when it comes to the personality of profet Muhamad (saw) , with no doubts , he was uniq and and a person like him will never be born again.
But when we discus Rajm , stoning , we have to understand , from where it came and why ?!!
First off all you said your self , that stoning is not writen in Koran ( guaranteed by Allah , that is true word ) , and than you say that is stated in Muhammas's sunnah.
Now when we talk about the sunnah and the hadith , i dont know how much you are informed , but they where writen some 250 years after the death of the profet Muhammad.
And let just make small comparation beatween hadith and the Bible. Usualy we dont accept the Bible to be true because it was writen some 80-100 years after the death of Isa(saw) . And when we read the Bible we find many contradiciton in it only because it was writen after the death of the profet as i said 80-100 years later.
So, we hava all those mistakes in the Bible with was writen only 100 years after the death on the profet , now imagine how many mistakes there are in the hadith wich was writen 250 after the death of the profet !!!
I'm not saying that i dont belive the words of the profet Muhammad , all im saying is imposible to be verified that those hadiths are realy profet words.
How can i belive that those hadiths are profet words when in the Holy Koran is stated that woman is equal with man , and in a hadith transmited by Buhari prophet Muhammad (saw) says " That prayer is not good , if a dog , monkey and the woman walk infront of you " !!!
I can guarantee to you and to every muslim , this is not said by prophet Muhammad (saw) .
In Holy Koran woman = man and in the sunnah woman=dog and monkey !!!
Question is whom you belive , to the words of Allah ,or words of Buhari who is stating that someone hurd Muhammad (saw) that he said this ?!!!
And belive this is not only hadith that contradicts the holy Koran , there are to many . Rajm is one of those hadiths that contradics Koran !!!

Selamun Alejkum brother .
Reply

barney
07-26-2007, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Not only that, although that is true, but Christ also taught by example. When the crowd prepared to stone Mary Magdalene, Christ stopped them from doing it by stating "let those without sin cast the first stone". .
So, Why diddnt he start the stoning party? He was without sin! So he got dibs on the first rock! :)
Reply

IcuFusion
07-26-2007, 11:23 PM
One more thing MuhammadRizan you brought here some hadiths that are transmited by Buhari
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
Sayyiduna Abu Hurayra (Allah be pleased with him) narrates: “A man from amongst the people came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) while he (the Messenger of Allah) was sitting in the Masjid, and addressed him, saying: “O Messenger of Allah! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse.” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) turned his face away from him. The man came to that side to which the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) had turned his face, and said: “O Messenger of Allah! I have committed illegal intercourse.” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) turned his face to the other side, and the man came to that side. When he confessed four times, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) called him and said: “Are you insane?” He said: “No, O Messenger of Allah!” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Are you married?” He said: “Yes, O Messenger of Allah!” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said (to the people): “Take him away and stone him to death.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 6439)
.................................................. .................................................. ....

Similarly, Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that When Ma’iz ibn Malik came to the Messenger of Allah (and confessed that he had committed adultery), the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to him: “Probably you have only kissed (the woman), or touched, or looked at her?” He said: “No, O Messenger of Allah!” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), using no euphemism, said: “Did you have sexual intercourse with her?” The narrator said: At that moment, (i.e. after he confessed that he had sexual intercourse), the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) ordered that he be stoned.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 6438)
Lets analize this two hadiths and see how much sence thay have !!! So we have to ppl who come to prophet Muhammad (saw) and confes that they had sexual intercourse .
So , its not the case that there are 4 witnesses and acused person has no escape , we are talkin here for two ppl who volunterily admit that they had sexual intercourse .
You tell me is there any logic for someone to do this , knowing that if he admits this thing he is dead meat !!! Or what for example someone wants to make suicide ?!! All he have to do is to lie that he had sexual intercourse , and he will be stoned to death , even tho he did nothing.
And , for me those hadiths are not acceptable for the only reason that there is no logic at all for someone to confes something that is going to cost to him his life .
And exacly in this pont we muslims make mistakes , by taking this false hadiths and converting them to laws even thought they contradict the Holy Koran !!!
Remember Koranic verses my brother " God , will not change position of nation , until they chenge their self first " and " ...the nation that goes astray God's path , Allah will send them the bigest enemy ..."

See in what position are muslims states today !!!!

Selamu Alejkum brother
Reply

Muslim Woman
07-27-2007, 12:50 AM
salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by barney
So, Why diddnt he start the stoning party? He was without sin! So he got dibs on the first rock! :)

haha funny :p ...

surely it was difficult for Jesus *(p) to kill someone alone.....not a very easy task ...right ?

may be this story is a fake one....i read that some versions of Bible don't have this story . Unfortunately some Chrsitians use this story to justify their sins like adultery , homosexaulity etc. They claim that there is no punishment as Jesus * (p ) forgave the sinner .

Even if the story is a true one , surely the blessed of God did not encourage anyone to justify it committing sins.

Did not read the other posts.....hope i m not off topic here
Reply

MuhammadRizan
07-27-2007, 01:21 AM
:sl:

Say: "obey Allah and His messenger.: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.(Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #32).

First of all, i know Hadith are compiled long after Muhammad times,
so please guide me, how we can obey Muhammad and take example of true Muslim through him without Hadith?

i'm just curious since ur argument seems so logical..

how do you perform Solah without instruction of Muhammad in the hadith?

same also about fasting?

same also about Zakah?

same also about Hajj?

please dont tell me u pick and choose, it's too christian to do.


So , its not the case that there are 4 witnesses and acused person has no escape , we are talkin here for two ppl who volunterily admit that they had sexual intercourse .
You tell me is there any logic for someone to do this , knowing that if he admits this thing he is dead meat !!! Or what for example someone wants to make suicide ?!! All he have to do is to lie that he had sexual intercourse , and he will be stoned to death , even tho he did nothing.
And , for me those hadiths are not acceptable for the only reason that there is no logic at all for someone to confes something that is going to cost to him his life
tell me, is it impossible for Muslim to regret what the sin that they have done?or they fear punishment in hell more than in this world?

please tell me by logic, who will be extremely more faithful? person that see and know Muhammad in flesh(like in the Hadith) or person that never see him (like us!)...is it fair to compare the act(confessing their sin) of person live with Muhammad 1400 years ago to us 1400 years later that could'nt even remember Quran by heart?(at least like me:embarrass )


So, Why diddnt he start the stoning party? He was without sin! So he got dibs on the first rock!
welcome back barney:D...
Reply

Muslim Woman
07-27-2007, 01:43 AM
:sl:


Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
salam.



The verse about stoning adulterer is not in the quran...it only stated in Muhammad sunnah...is it a problem?

is it possible that the punishment took place before the revelation came ?

Is there any proof that after the Quranic verses on 80-100 lashes came for adultery , Prophet (p) ordered of stoning ???
Reply

dpartlow
07-27-2007, 10:53 AM
The death spoken of in these passages is a spiritual death.
Christ often spoke of the living 'dead'
But he also gave us three messages about executing judgement.

#1) the executioner must be sinless - and who is therefore it is left up to God (which is very consistent with many older passages such as 'vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord')

#2) That we be forgiving - if we expect God to be forgiving of us in return.

#3) That we will be forgiven - if we repent of the sin and trust in the redeeming grace BECAUSE He took the death penalties for us. He was the paschal lamb - and took the sentence and punishment prescribed in the law for everyone who repents and believes in Him. It was the complete fulfillment - the echo of when Father Ibrahim went to sacrifice his son as God had commanded - but then at the last moment supplied the ram to be sacrificed in his place. That sacrifice was for Ibrahim, Christ's sacrifice was for all people of all time who trust in Him.

However - he does not nullify the law or sin - because He calls on the repentent sinners to 'go and sin no more'


Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
:sl:
Some Muslim country enforced Syariah Law, international comunity condemned islam as barbaric, midieval, intolerant religion.
christian missionary also say the same thing.

It's obvious why muslim praticed this law because it's in Quran and Hadith, God's law above manmade law. Muslim cant just pick something their like and ignore anything else, only hypocrites does that.

so my question is..

why christians don't enforce this?


And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. (Genesis 17:14)

And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.(Exodus 21:15)

And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 21:17)

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him. (Leviticus 20:9)
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. (Exodus 21:14)

Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death (Exodus 25:2)
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: (Exodus 20:4)

And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. (Leviticus 20:9-11)

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.(Leviticus 24:16)

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

i personally believe Christian don't just pick whatever suit their need, or to please other people, because they believe Bible is word of god.
so is there another reason?
Reply

MuhammadRizan
07-28-2007, 01:12 AM
:sl:

The Adulteress is Confined in her House; A Command Later Abrogated


At the begining of Islam, the ruling was that if a woman commits adultery as stipulated by sufficient proof, she was confined to her home, without leave, until she died. Allah said,


[وَاللَـتِى يَأْتِينَ الْفَـحِشَةَ]


يعني الزنا


[مِن نِّسَآئِكُمْ فَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ أَرْبَعةً مِّنْكُمْ فَإِن شَهِدُواْ فَأَمْسِكُوهُنَّ فِى الْبُيُوتِ حَتَّى يَتَوَفَّاهُنَّ الْمَوْتُ أَوْ يَجْعَلَ اللَّهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلاً]


(And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from among you against them; and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to them or Allah ordains for them some (other) way.) `Some other way' mentioned here is the abrogation of this ruling that came later. Ibn `Abbas said, "The early ruling was confinement, until Allah sent down Surat An-Nur (chapter 24) which abrogated that ruling with the ruling of flogging (for fornication) or stoning to death (for adultery).'' Similar was reported from `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Al-Hasan, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, Abu Salih, Qatadah, Zayd bin Aslam and Ad-Dahhak, and this is a matter that is agreed upon. Imam Ahmad recorded that `Ubadah bin As-Samit said, "When the revelation descended upon the Messenger of Allah , it would affect him and his face would show signs of strain. One day, Allah sent down a revelation to him, and when the Messenger was relieved of its strain, he said,


«خُذُوا عَنِّي، قَدْ جَعَلَ اللهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلًا، الثَّيِّبُ بِالثَّيِّبِ، وَالْبِكْرُ بِالْبِكْرِ، الثَّــيِّبُ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ، وَرَجْمٌ بِالْحِجَارَةِ، وَالْبِكْرُ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ ثُمَّ نَفْيُ سَنَة»


(Take from me: Allah has made some other way for them. The married with the married, the unmarried with the unmarried. The married gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death, while the unmarried gets a hundred lashes then banishment for a year.)'' Muslim and the collectors of the Sunan recorded that `Ubadah bin As-Samit said that the Prophet said,


«خُذُوا عَنِّي خُذُوا عَنِّي، قَدْ جَعَلَ اللهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلًا، الْبِكْرُ بِالْبِكْرِ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ وَتَغْرِيبُ عَامٍ، وَالثَّيِّبُ بِالثَّيِّبِ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ وَالرَّجْم»


(Take from me, take from me. Allah has made some other way for them: the (unmarried) gets a hundred lashes and banishment for one year, while the (married) gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death.) At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Sahih''. Allah said,


[وَاللَّذَانَ يَأْتِيَـنِهَا مِنكُمْ فَـَاذُوهُمَا]


(And the two persons among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both.) Ibn `Abbas and Sa`id bin Jubayr said that this punishment includes cursing, shaming them and beating them with sandals. This was the ruling until Allah abrogated it with flogging or stoning, as we stated. Mujahid said, "It was revealed about the case of two men who do it.'' As if he was referring to the actions of the people of Lut, and Allah knows best. The collectors of Sunan recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that the Messenger of Allah said,


«مَنْ رَأَيْتُمُوهُ يَعْمَلُ عَمَلَ قَوْمِ لُوطٍ، فَاقْتُلُوا الْفَاعِلَ وَالْمَفْعُولَ بِه»


(Whoever you catch committing the act of the people of Lut (homosexuality), then kill both parties to the act.) Allah said,


[فَإِن تَابَا وَأَصْلَحَا]


(And if they repent and do righteous good deeds), by refraining from that evil act, and thereafter their actions become righteous,


[فَأَعْرِضُواْ عَنْهُمَآ]


(leave them alone), do not verbally abuse them after that, since he who truly repents is just like he who has no sin,


[إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ تَوَّاباً رَّحِيماً]


(Surely, Allah is Ever the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful.) The following is recorded in the Two Sahihs:


«إِذَا زَنَتْ أَمَةُ أَحَدِكُمْ، فَلْيَجْلِدْهَا الْحَدَّ، وَلَا يُثَرِّبْ عَلَيْهَا»


(When the slave-girl of one of you commits illegal sexual intercouse, let him flog her and not chastise her afterwards. ) because the lashes she receives erase the sin that she has committed.


[إِنَّمَا التَّوْبَةُ عَلَى اللَّهِ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ السُّوءَ بِجَهَـلَةٍ ثُمَّ يَتُوبُونَ مِن قَرِيبٍ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ يَتُوبُ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَلِيماً حَكِيماً - وَلَيْسَتِ التَّوْبَةُ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ السَّيِّئَـتِ حَتَّى إِذَا حَضَرَ أَحَدَهُمُ الْمَوْتُ قَالَ إِنِّى تُبْتُ الاٌّنَ وَلاَ الَّذِينَ يَمُوتُونَ وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ أُوْلَـئِكَ أَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَاباً أَلِيماً ]


(17. Allah accepts only the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and foolishness and repent soon [afterwards]; it is they to whom Allah will forgive and Allah is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise.) (18. And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil deeds until death faces one of them and he says: "Now I repent;'' nor of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them, We have prepared a painful torment.)
i take this from tafseer ibn kathir.

there are some point here.

1)Allah already mention there will be something new in the future.

2)Punishment is to erase their sin(adultery), so when the adulterer died during prosecution, they will not punish again in the hereafter, which is the reason why people confessed personally during Muhammad(pbuh) times.

3)this verse predated the event of stoning.

about the hadith authenticity and classification. i urge the reader please start ur research here.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...dith/atit.html
Reply

MuhammadRizan
07-28-2007, 01:34 AM
Salam.

The death spoken of in these passages is a spiritual death.
Christ often spoke of the living 'dead'
1)what is the criteria used to define some "death" word mention in bible,i means how to know Jesus or God mean spiritual or physical?

2)i take an example.

And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.(Exodus 21:15)
3)how to put people in the spiritual death?if in this passage it's interpreted spiritual death.
Reply

dpartlow
07-31-2007, 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
Salam.



1)what is the criteria used to define some "death" word mention in bible,i means how to know Jesus or God mean spiritual or physical?

2)i take an example.



3)how to put people in the spiritual death?if in this passage it's interpreted spiritual death.

Salam MuhammadRizan,

Well I believe that, as the word of God, the Bible never 'abrogates' itsself, only clarifies - what is true for one time and people is true for all.

So when Jesus Christ talked of the spiritually dead, He was talking of people living in a state of apostacy - separation from the Kingdom of Heaven. This seperation and 'death' was (and still is) due to some people's love of darkness. There are many symptoms of spiritual death including all sorts of sins - as described in the passages we are discussing (adultery, parental disrespect...)

But Jesus Christ also said that He came into the world not to condemn, but to save. He never retracted the statements about the death penalty for certain sins (because people living in sin are already spiritually dead), but He indicated that He came with an offer of salvation and eternal life - even for them if they would repent and believe in Him.

So there is no way of placing someone in spiritual death as a punishment - for people are judged by God alone and by their own word and deed. When God said: Vengeance is mine - it was a testimony to the fact that He would be the one to carry out punishments.

Cheers!
Dan
Reply

barney
08-05-2007, 09:45 PM
(Samuel L Jackson) in Pulp Fiction:

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Then he blew the guys head off with a Colt Python. God it seems always needs someone to carry out his punishments, because he has a bit of trouble doing it himself.
Reply

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