Is the ONE GOD of Islam the same as the GOD of the Bible?

[Phil12123]

Allah also explains to us clearly that because Jews and Christians both preach that we must have faith in One God, there is no need to convert them to Islam.

hah, have u asked chrisitans what is the "one god" they believe in??
Allah told us in the Qur'an that if Christians and Jews do good deeds, believe in one God (the proper way as muslims do), and believe in the day of judgment .... they go to heaven.
but the "One God" that chrisitians believe is not the same as the One God we believe in.

So this thread would deal with that very issue. Is the ONE GOD of Islam ("Allah") the same as the ONE GOD of Christianity and Judaism, the GOD of the Bible? Not just debates over the Trinity, but a comparison of other aspects and attributes of the ONE GOD.

[Malaikah]

Yes... they are referring to the same God. That doesn't mean that we agree on everything about that God... but nonetheless we are all worshipping the same God... (except for the trinity/Jesus/holy spirit part obviously...)

[Keltoi]

We worship the same God, but we differ on how we understand God.

[Gangster No.1]

How can the christians and jews be compared to muslims.

The christians and jews etc, believe totally diffrent concepts of god.

A muslim is one who testify's 'THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH, & MUHAMMAD IS THE FINAL MESSENGER''.

Christians for example pray diffrent, they belive jesus is son of god, astagfural, how can a person be entered in heaven, when they have commited TOTAL wrong, asscoiating partners with allah.

STOP, ryt there, as it says in hadith/quran. about your religion is yours and mine is mine, << not a quote!

but that is the priniciple of our LIFE, 2 believe in Allah & the rasool (p.b.u.h), so if i kufr is 2 disbelive this, then how can they come even kilometers away 2 the gates of paradise, utterly not, instead they will be sitting, sipping, eating hell!

Although muslims commit sin/deeds
we belive in Allah and the messenger (p.b.u.h).

however YOU dont, dont bother 2 compare yourself when you belive in your FALSE GOD.

THE SHAHADAH, IS THE ROOT 2 EVRYTHING, DENYING IT, YOU ARE A KUFR!


p.s

if i said any thing wrong may allah forgive me, if i said any thing good, may allah reawrd me and the Ummah, inshlah.

:sl:

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[Sinbad]

I need a christian to confirm this. Long time I read the bible and not remember the exact scriptures or place et c.

Well according to the bible satan is a master of deception, and can even take the form of an angel. right?

And Jesus warned us al over the New Testament, "I am the last one", "dont follow someone after me".

All I remember is Matthew 24:5

"Many will come using my name. They will say, 'I am the Messiah,' and they will deceive many people.(GOD'S WORD®) "

Just wanted to add my 2 cents,

[Phil12123]

How can the christians and jews be compared to muslims.

The christians and jews etc, believe totally diffrent concepts of god.

A muslim is one who testify's 'THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH, & MUHAMMAD IS THE FINAL MESSENGER''.

Christians for example pray diffrent, they belive jesus is son of god, astagfural, how can a person be entered in heaven, when they have commited TOTAL wrong, asscoiating partners with allah.

STOP, ryt there, as it says in hadith/quran. about your religion is yours and mine is mine, << not a quote!

but that is the priniciple of our LIFE, 2 believe in Allah & the rasool (p.b.u.h), so if i kufr is 2 disbelive this, then how can they come even kilometers away 2 the gates of paradise, utterly not, instead they will be sitting, sipping, eating hell!

Although muslims commit sin/deeds
we belive in Allah and the messenger (p.b.u.h).

however YOU dont, dont bother 2 compare yourself when you belive in your FALSE GOD.

You have touched on a point that is perhaps at the heart of this thread. While some have said, Christians and Muslims believe in the same God, but simply understand Him differently, you have come out and said matter-of-factly that non-Muslims actually worship a FALSE GOD. Now, that does not offend me, nor surprise me, because I'm wondering whether any Christians feel that the God of Islam, Allah, is a false god? Why? Or why not?

[Phil12123]

I need a christian to confirm this. Long time I read the bible and not remember the exact scriptures or place et c.

Well according to the bible satan is a master of deception, and can even take the form of an angel. right?

And Jesus warned us all over the New Testament, "I am the last one", "dont follow someone after me".

All I remember is Matthew 24:5

"Many will come using my name. They will say, 'I am the Messiah,' and they will deceive many people.(GOD'S WORD®) "

Just wanted to add my 2 cents,

Jesus did warn of false christs and false prophets that would come and deceive many (Matt. 7:15-20; 24:4-5, 11, 24). Likewise, several other writers of NT books also warned of the same, such as Peter (2 Peter 2:1-3) and John (1 John 4:1-3). In his farewell to the elders at Ephesus, Paul warned that "after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves" (Acts 20:29-30).

Jesus Himself did not specifically say He was "the last one" or "don't follow someone after me," but He did say, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6). And certainly the false prophets/teachers were not to be followed, for as Peter warned, they would bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Pet. 2:1). The key is that no later prophet or teacher was to be listened to if he denied the Gospel that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again (Gal. 1:6-9; 1 Cor. 15:1-3), because to do so would be to "deny the Lord that bought them" (with His blood).

Actually being a prophet or having the gift of prophecy was simply one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. There were many prophets who exercised that gift, but as far as we know, they were not told to reduce their prophecies to writing. They simply gave a word from the Lord to edify the believers as they gathered in His name. And by the way, what they said was judged (1 Cor. 14:29-31). None of them was put on any pedestal and revered as a special messenger from God. They were simply using their Spirit-given gift to build up the believers. But they were accountable to the believers and to the Lord, that nothing spoken in the name of the Lord would be in error or contrary to previous instruction given by the Lord. God does not say one thing, like, I'm going to Jerusalem and will be killed and on the third day rise from the dead, and then later contradict Himself and say it never happened.

[BanGuLLy]

The new testament has so many contradictions.. watch this video..

Media Tags are no longer supported

[BanGuLLy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdxd5_MwGeg&NR=1

[dougmusr]

Jesus Himself did not specifically say He was "the last one"

I think these parables makes it clear that God sent His Son as the final messenger. In addition, Mat 11:11 indicates that perhaps John the Baptist was the final earthly prophet alluded to in these parables prior to the coming of the Messiah.

Mat 21:33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.
34 "Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit.
35 "And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.
36 "Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.
37 "Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
38 "But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.'
39 "So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?"
41 They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons."

Mk 12:6 "Therefore still having one son, his beloved, he also sent him to them last, saying, 'They will respect my son.'

Mat 11:11 "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I think these parables makes it clear that God sent His Son

I cant seem to understand that. Why would God send himself :X
I know its not part of it. Dont bother explaining else itll go off topic. Sorry lol.

[Sinbad]

Yes so God did say that Jesus would be the last! And God also warns us that the devil can pretend to be an angel, like lets say Gabriel?

I cant seem to understand that. Why would God send himself :X
I know its not part of it. Dont bother explaining else itll go off topic. Sorry lol.

I have to agree that is confucing.

[Phil12123]

I think these parables makes it clear that God sent His Son as the final messenger. In addition, Mat 11:11 indicates that perhaps John the Baptist was the final earthly prophet alluded to in these parables prior to the coming of the Messiah.

Mat 21:33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.
34 "Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit.
35 "And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.
36 "Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.
37 "Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
38 "But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.'
39 "So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?"
41 They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons."

Mk 12:6 "Therefore still having one son, his beloved, he also sent him to them last, saying, 'They will respect my son.'

Mat 11:11 "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Good points! You're very right!

[Phil12123]

Yes so God did say that Jesus would be the last! And God also warns us that the devil can pretend to be an angel, like lets say Gabriel?

You also make very good points! Right on!!

[vpb]

We don't believe in the same "one God", bc u see the One God as FSH merged into one God, where we see God as one in every way.

as bro gangsa said we have different concepts of God.

[vpb]

We worship the same God, but we differ on how we understand God.

no , we don't, bc you assume Jesus is god, and to us jesus a.s is only a prophet. how then could we worship the same God?

[Sinbad]

no , we don't, bc you assume Jesus is god, and to us jesus a.s is only a prophet. how then could we worship the same God?

they are all diffrent, according to the jewish religion the messiah (jesus) will make world peace when he arrives et c.

That didnt hapen so Judaism and christianity are like up and down. Islam is also extremly diffent.

And besides the old testament dosent seem monotheistic.

When Moses challenges the egyptian Priests. They turn their staffs into serpents to show how powerfull their gods are. Then moses turns hes staff into a serpent and it eats the other 2 serpents. This is to show that the jewish God is stronger.

and then we have the old hebrew elohim, thats still elohim in the old KJV bible, and the oldest hebrew texts.

Elohim is plural for "the divine ones".

[BanGuLLy]

they are all diffrent, according to the jewish religion the messiah (jesus) will make world peace when he arrives et c.

It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual path.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.

3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.

4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

[Umar001]

This is going amazingly wierd.

Do all three worship the same God, I think they try to in a broad sense, they all claim to worship the one who created them. Do they add worship of others, thats another topic. Do they depict or have the right understanding of God thats again something else.

[vpb]

Do all three worship the same God, I think they try to in a broad sense, they all claim to worship the one who created them. Do they add worship of others, thats another topic. Do they depict or have the right understanding of God thats again something else.

yes, that's why have three religions.
and Allah swt in the Qur'an all the time refers to people that they are taking other things/people as God besides Allah. so we are not really worshipping the same God, otherwise we would all be muslims together.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

christians attribute qualities to their God (can become human etc) that we muslims can never accept, so we say their God is not our God and it is certainly not the same God...

[vpb]

christians attribute qualities to their God (can become human etc) that we muslims can never accept, so we say their God is not our God and it is certainly not the same God...

Agreed :)

[BanGuLLy]

Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus is the last prophet and that Satan will pose as other prophets after him... Is it in the Old or New testament..?

[Umar001]

yes, that's why have three religions.
and Allah swt in the Qur'an all the time refers to people that they are taking other things/people as God besides Allah. so we are not really worshipping the same God, otherwise we would all be muslims together.

They are worshipping Allah and others besides him, that's it, so they are worshipping Allah, but not in the right way. Simple.

I disagree that if they worshipped Allah alone we would all be muslims, since if someone worships only Allah, they have neglected the second principle of actions being accepted, i.e. that the action confirms to the way of Muhammad.

Then again it all depends on how we use the word worship.

[vpb]

They are worshipping Allah and others besides him, that's it, so they are worshipping Allah, but not in the right way. Simple.

no they don't worship Allah, they worship Jesus. is Jesus same as Allah?? I've never ever in my life heard a christian say "o father please....", but always heard saying "Jesus , ......". Jesus is their focus. They worship Jesus so much they even sometimes forget the Father and the Holy spirit. and their God as (FSHS), is not Allah. Allah doesn't have those characteristics or virtues.
so we definitely don't worship the same God.

I disagree that if they worshipped Allah alone we would all be muslims, since if someone worships only Allah, they have neglected the second principle of actions being accepted, i.e. that the action confirms to the way of Muhammad.

but Muhammed taught us to worship one God, Allah swt. So with it comes the second part of shahada. and as I mentioned the word 'muslim'. you need to pronounce shahada in order to be a muslim :). and shahada includes Muhammed as a messenger. :)

Then again it all depends on how we use the word worship.

as I said , from our view, they worship a prophet, we worship Allah az. does this look same to you?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

They are worshipping Allah and others besides him, that's it, so they are worshipping Allah, but not in the right way. Simple.

ask them about their God, and compare it to surah ikhlaas

[Umar001]

no they don't worship Allah, they worship Jesus. is Jesus same as Allah?? I've never ever in my life heard a christian say "o father please....", but always heard saying "Jesus , ......". Jesus is their focus. They worship Jesus so much they even sometimes forget the Father and the Holy spirit. and their God as (FSHS), is not Allah. Allah doesn't have those characteristics or virtues.
so we definitely don't worship the same God.

I was a Christian and can tell you that they worship the 'Father' too, whether they understand him in the right way, as I said, is not the question, but rather, they believe that God, created the universe, this God some of them believe is three in one, we are not debating whether their belief of him being three in one is right, but we are takling the concept that this God which they think is three in one, is the creator, the God of Abraham, which is the same God muslims believe in.

but Muhammed taught us to worship one God, Allah swt. So with it comes the second part of shahada. and as I mentioned the word 'muslim'. you need to pronounce shahada in order to be a muslim :). and shahada includes Muhammed as a messenger. :)

Exactly brother, worshipping Allah alone is not right if someone just worships him in his own way, saying 'I will worship Allah by eating ham' is in reality not worship. I agree, but what we are saying is not whether they worship him right or wrong, but do they worship him in anyway? Yes they do, they also worship others besides him, that's their problem.

as I said , from our view, they worship a prophet, we worship Allah az. does this look same to you?

My view as a Muslim is that they worship Allah AND, Keyword, AND a prophet. But even if they worshipped Allah alone, they would have to worship him according to the way of Muhammad, unless they did knew no better.

ask them about their God, and compare it to surah ikhlaas

Brother, I don't think you understand, if I asked a Christian to describe their God, they would say 'The Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, The Triune God...'

Some of their descriptions will be right and some wrong, I don't disagree, their understanding of God is wrong, but at the same time, within that understanding they do have a part which is right, they claim to worship The Creator, The First and the Last, The sustainer.

[vpb]

I was a Christian and can tell you that they worship the 'Father' too

when do they mention the Father?? only when they talk about trinity. Everything they talk about is Jesus. Everything.

I was a Christian and can tell you that they worship the 'Father' too, whether they understand him in the right way, as I said, is not the question, but rather, they believe that God, created the universe, this God some of them believe is three in one, we are not debating whether their belief of him being three in one is right, but we are takling the concept that this God which they think is three in one, is the creator, the God of Abraham, which is the same God muslims believe in.

and we are not talking here about what God does, we are talking here about do we worship the same God, and certainly we don't . Bc they worship Jesus, which was a prophet, a man, while we worship Allah swt. Their "God" is in three personas, does that look the same God as we believe in???? does their "God" have the virtues that Allah az. does????

but as bro ibnabdulhakim said, check the surah al ikhlas if it matches with their description of God. that will tell u, if we worship the same God.

[Amadeus85]

Sometimes i think that islam was created only to negate the divinity of Jesus Christ.

[vpb]

Christianity:

Most Christians believe in a Trinity, consisting of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit -- three persons simultaneously existing in a single deity.

They profess Jesus to be the only Son of God, the Lord,[57] and the eternal Word (which is a translation of the Greek Logos),[58] who became man in the incarnation,[59] so that those who believe in him might have eternal life.





Islam:


Surah 112. The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of Allah

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.





now , I don't know on what basis you say that we worship the same God.

[vpb]

Sometimes i think that islam was created only to negate the divinity of Jesus Christ.

;D;D good joke.

[Amadeus85]

no , we don't, bc you assume Jesus is god, and to us jesus a.s is only a prophet. how then could we worship the same God?

Its quite convenient for me because i seriously dont know what muslims worship. For me as a christian, muslims think that they worship the God from the Bible, but i am not sure about that.

[- Qatada -]

Sometimes i think that islam was created only to negate the divinity of Jesus Christ.

That's because Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) was the servant and Messenger of God :) the same way ALL the Prophets of God were.

Since he was in a womb, he was fed by his mother, Mary (peace be upon her), he grew up, and he will die. And so did all the Messengers of God.


Using that logic - he is human. And if one was to use the quote which you stated:

Sometimes i think that islam was created only to negate the divinity of Jesus Christ.

We can replace it and say:

Sometimes i think that christianity was created only to claim the divinity of Jesus Christ.

And yes, Jesus never called people to worship him. So ofcourse, Islaam confirmed that. And called to the worship of our Creator and Sustainer ALONE.

[vpb]

Its quite convenient for me because i seriously dont know what muslims worship.

Please read the chapter of Qur'an above. It is a very good surah which in 4 verses tells us about God (Allah swt.)

For me as a christian, muslims think that they worship the God from the Bible, but i am not sure about that.

well, I can't see any similarities between the two descreption of God in Bible and Qur'an.

but Allah knows best.

[- Qatada -]

Its quite convenient for me because i seriously dont know what muslims worship. For me as a christian, muslims think that they worship the God from the Bible, but i am not sure about that.

Aaron, who created you, who gave you life? Who gives you all the sustenance you have in life? Is it God? Then why does He need to be in 3 parts? Isn't One God sufficient?


Allaah is the Lord of the Israeelites, and He is the Lord of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus son of Mary, Muhammad (peace be upon all) 124,000 Prophets of God. It is He who is ALONE worthy of worship and obedience. And Allaah has decreed that those who worship others along with Him, there deeds are useless. And these other 'gods' which they worship besides him will reject them on the Day of Judgement. Because on that Day, everything will return to Allaah and depend on Him Alone, the Lord of the Worlds. And no-one will be dealt with unjustly.

[Amadeus85]

Aaron, who created you, who gave you life? Who gives you all the sustenance you have in life? Is it God? Then why does He need to be in 3 parts? Isn't One God sufficient?

God is almighty so He can do whatever He wants. He can be in three parts , being one part in the same time.
He is almighty and we are to small creatures to say God cant not do this or cant be this. Our minds are to small to understand Him well. Its like a worm trying to understand the nature of a man.

[Umar001]

when do they mention the Father?? only when they talk about trinity. Everything they talk about is Jesus. Everything.

Erm, when exactly do you speak to Christians? If you speak to them in the streets or on the board or when they teach you then of course the only think they will mainly speak to you about is the Trinity. It's a da'wah thing for them.

and we are not talking here about what God does, we are talking here about do we worship the same God, and certainly we don't . Bc they worship Jesus, which was a prophet, a man, while we worship Allah swt. Their "God" is in three personas, does that look the same God as we believe in???? does their "God" have the virtues that Allah az. does????

but as bro ibnabdulhakim said, check the surah al ikhlas if it matches with their description of God. that will tell u, if we worship the same God.

Do they worship The creator? If you want me to show you they do then I will, if they do then we estblish they worship Allah, but also they worship others besides Him.

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

There you go, they worship the Creator, they also worship the created things besides the creator and say that the created and the creator are one. I agree, but none the less they worship the Creator AND the created. Simple.

You keep talking about the trinity and this and that, but do you agree that part of the trinity includes The Creator? I.e. that they direct some of their worship to God, The Creator, if yes, then that is it, they worship Allah but they worship others WITH Allah.

[- Qatada -]

God is almighty so He can do whatever He wants. He can be in three parts , being one part in the same time.
He is almighty and we are to small creatures to say God cant not do this or cant be this. Our minds are to small to understand Him well. Its like a worm trying to understand the nature of a man.

Yes, i totally agree. But do you feel that God would give us logic which totally contradicts or goes against the religion which He sends to us?

He would send us a religion which makes sense to us. That's what makes us believe that it is the truth. :)



Peace.

[Amadeus85]

For me it is interesting. Jesus Christ seems to be the issue which is important for so many people, not only christians. Muslims say that Jesus was a muslim. Communists say that Jesus was a revolutionist. Even buddhists claim that for them Christ is something important. We all people of the world, Jews, muslims, christians, hindus, measure time according to Christ's born. For muslims Jesus will be the one who appears at the end of the world to judge people. Why Jesus, not the last muslim prophet Muhammad?

[Amadeus85]

Yes, i totally agree. But do you feel that God would give us logic which totally contradicts or goes against the religion which He sends to us?

He would send us a religion which makes sense to us. That's what makes us believe that it is the truth. :)



Peace.

Brother and according to Quaran who is responsible for creating christianity if not Allah? It was Allah who took away muslim Isa from a cross and made people believe that He died there. Christians believed that after His death, He ressurected, so Allah is responsible for creating the biggest religion in the world, and the biggest rival for islam. Where is logic in this ? Why would Allah made a faith that keeps stealing "true believers" from islam during the ages?

[- Qatada -]

For me it is interesting. Jesus Christ seems to be the issue which is important for so many people, not only christians. Muslims say that Jesus was a muslim. Communists say that Jesus was a revolutionist. Even buddhists claim that for them Christ is something important. We all people of the world, Jews, muslims, christians, hindus, measure time according to Christ's born. For muslims Jesus will be the one who appears at the end of the world to judge people. Why Jesus, not the last muslim prophet Muhammad?

Allaah says in the Qur'an:

And [mention] the one who guarded her chastity [the virgin Mary], so We blew into her [garment] through Our angel [Gabriel], and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

Indeed this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me.

[Qur'an Al Anbiyaa (the Prophets) 21: 91-2]

So without a doubt Allaah has made Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon him) a sign for mankind. And Allaah loves His Messengers', yet He is way above of having any children.



Your question about the Messiah/Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) returning to the earth near the final hour is the truth. He will come, and since he is the Messiah/the Christ, he will fight the anti christ and will destroy him.

Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) had the duty of conveying the message, and because he is not the Messiah/Christ, he will not have to come to fight the anti-christ.


Then Jesus son of Mary will remain on the world for however long Allaah wills (some scholars say around 7 years due to other evidences) - he will marry, have children, he will clarify to the people that he is the servant and Messenger of Allaah, and that Allaah Alone is worthy of worship. And he will be the leader of the believers.


I think the part where you're confused is that you think Jesus will come to judge mankind, yet that isn't true. He will come near, the Day of Judgement, since the Anti-christ is the first major sign of the end times.



Before the Day of Judgement, the whole earth will be destroyed and created new. Then Allaah will create it in a new way, and mankind will all be brought back to life. And every soul will be judged on it's own deeds. No soul will bear the good/bad of another. And no-one will be dealt with unjustly.

Those who worshipped Allaah, the Creator and Lord of the Worlds will get their reward from Him. Yet those who worshipped others along with Him will have to get their reward off the other things they worshipped, whether it was humans, stone idols etc. And no-one will have any control of that Day except the Lord of the Worlds. And He will judge us on what we differed.

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.


If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Allah will say, "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.

To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.


[Qur'an 5: 116-120]

Peace.

[Amadeus85]

Jesus Christ acts like He is God and talks like He is God. He ressurected people from dead, He healed the sick, He multiplied food, He repented sins, He was killed and ressurected.]

After 3 years with his disciples we read how one of them
asks Jesus and wants to be "shown the Father (God)".

Jesus answered, "Don't you know me, Philip, even after
I have been among you such a long time?
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. ...
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the
Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the
miracles themselves." (John 14:10-11

Jesus says, "I am the living bread that came down from Heaven"
John 6:51
Jesus says, "I am from above. ... I am not of this world" John 8:23
Jesus says, "I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am
leaving the world and going back to the Father" John 16:28

Jesus says, "I and the Father are one" John 10:30

Jesus says, "before Abraham was born, I am" John 8.58

Jesus says, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will
never pass away." Mark 13:31

Jesus says, "everyone who looks to the Son and believe in Him shall
have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day"
John 6:40-44

[- Qatada -]

Brother and according to Quaran who is responsible for creating christianity if not Allah? It was Allah who took away muslim Isa from a cross and made people believe that He died there. Christians believed that after His death, He ressurected, so Allah is responsible for creating the biggest religion in the world, and the biggest rival for islam. Where is logic in this ? Why would Allah made a faith that keeps stealing "true believers" from islam during the ages?

Allaah says in the Qur'an:

Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.

[Qur'an 3: 19]

The religion of Prophet Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) was Islaam. His disciples were Muslims because they believed in Allaah, and His Messenger, Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him), and they submitted to Allaah.

The honor of Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) is great in Islaam, because he never even died, never got killed, nor was he crucified, rather Allaah raised him upto Himself, and Allaah will send him back after a temporary time to support the believers and fight the Anti-Christ.



About christianity being the biggest religion, you have to question why? Is it because in christianity, all you have to do is 'believe' and then you're saved? Maybe that's why people think that it's the easy way out? So they choose to follow it?

If we are to compare the logic of Islaam, even using Biblical texts - we can say that the Bible supports Islaam in much more ways than the Christian arguments even do! That is because the religion in the sight of Allaah is Islaam, and it is the truth because it is from the Lord of the Worlds.


About people leaving Islaam, Allaah has said:

O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him.. [Qur'an 5: 54]

Allaah guides the sincere people into His religion, those who aren't sincere go astray to their own loss. Preferring this temporary life over the hereafter. And without a doubt, the hereafter is the best place and longer lasting, if you only knew.




Peace.

[Amadeus85]

Many Qur’anic stories can be traced to Jewish and Christian folktales and other apocryphal literature. For example a story of Abraham destroying idols (As-Saffat 37) is found in a Jewish folktale, the Midrash Rabbah. The Qur’anic story of Zachariah, father of John the Baptist, is based upon a second-century Christian fable. The story of Jesus being born under a palm tree is also based on a late fable, as is the story of Jesus making clay birds come alive. Everything the Qur’an says about the life of Jesus which is not found in the Bible can be traced to fables composed more than a hundred years after Jesus’ death.

Non-Christian sources for Jesus

• Tacitus (AD 55-120), a renowned historical of ancient Rome, wrote in the latter half of the first century that ‘Christus ... was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also.’ (Annals 15: 44).

• Suetonius writing around AD 120 tells of disturbances of the Jews at the ‘instigation of Chrestus’, during the time of the emperor Claudius. This could refer to Jesus, and appears to relate to the events of Acts 18:2, which took place in AD 49.

• Thallus, a secular historian writing perhaps around AD 52 refers to the death of Jesus in a discussion of the darkness over the land after his death. The original is lost, but Thallus’ arguments — explaining what happened as a solar eclipse — are referred to by Julius Africanus in the early 3rd century.

• Mara Bar-Serapion, a Syrian writing after the destruction of the Temple in AD 70, mentions the earlier execution of Jesus, whom he calls a ‘King’.

• The Babylonian Talmud refers to the crucifixion (calling it a hanging) of Jesus the Nazarene on the eve of the Passover. In the Talmud Jesus is also called the illegitimate son of Mary.

• The Jewish historian Josephus describes Jesus’ crucifixion under Pilate in his Antiquities, written about AD 93/94. Josephus also refers to James the brother of Jesus and his execution during the time of Ananus (or Annas) the high priest.

[- Qatada -]

Thankyou, so you agree that there have been many folktales throughout history after Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) right? :)


Because if that's the case, then you need to question which bible you're using. Why do i say this? Because the christians themselves differ on which Bible is the truth right? One Catholic version, and One Protestant version? And then many different versions or editions after that. True?

[Amadeus85]

Thankyou, so you agree that there have been many folktales throughout history after Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) right? :)


Because if that's the case, then you need to question which bible you're using. Why do i say this? Because the christians themselves differ on which Bible is the truth right? One Catholic version, and One Protestant version? And then many different versions or editions after that. True?

I mean that Muhammad found out about some fables and stories that came out after Jesus' death and Muhammad used it in writing Quaran. Thats why in Quaran there are so many places and people from the Bible, simply because muslim prophet Muhammad was in contact with christians for some time and he heard about it and then used it in Quaran. For exampe see-

Mariam the mother of ‘Isa is called a sister of Aaron, and also the daughter of Aaron’s father ‘Imran (Hebr. Amram). Clearly Muhammad has confused Mary (Hebr. Miriam) with Miriam of the Exodus. The two lived more than a thousand years apart!

In the Bible Haman is the minister of Ahasuerus in Media and Persia (The Book of Esther 3:1-2). Yet the Qur’an places him over a thousand years earlier, as a minister of Pharoah in Egypt.

The Qur’an has a Samaritan making the golden calf, which was worshipped by the Israelites in the wilderness (Ta Ha 20:85) during the Exodus. In fact it was Aaron (Exodus 34:1-6). The Samaritans did not exist until several centuries later. They were descendants of the northern Israelites centuries after the Exodus.

Jesus’ titles of Messiah and Word of God, which the Qur’an uses, find no explanation in the Qur’an. Yet in the Bible, from which they are taken, these titles are well integrated in a whole theological system.

The Biblical narratives are rich with historical details, many confirmed by archaeology. They cover more than a thousand years, and reveal a long process of technological and cultural development. In contrast the Qur’an’s sacred history is devoid of archaeological support. Its fragmentary and disjointed stories offer no authentic reflection of historical cultures. No place name from ancient Israel is mentioned, not even Jerusalem. Many of the supposed historical events reported in the Qur’an have no independent verification. For example we are told that Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba in Mecca (Al-Baqarah 2:127), but this is totally without support. The Biblical account, more than a thousand years older, does not place Abraham anywhere near Arabia.

[Amadeus85]

Thankyou, so you agree that there have been many folktales throughout history after Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) right? :)


Because if that's the case, then you need to question which bible you're using. Why do i say this? Because the christians themselves differ on which Bible is the truth right? One Catholic version, and One Protestant version? And then many different versions or editions after that. True?

Yes yes so many versions of Bible we have, hundreds or thousands maybe right? catholic Bible, orthodox Bible, Lutheran Bible, Calvin Bible, american Bible, polish Bible. etc tec, but isnt this strange that all catholics, orthodox, protestants in all over the world, Africa, USA Europe China and Sri Lanka, believe in the core and fundamental christian belief that Jesus Christ, Son of God, was sent on earth to die for our sins and then He ressurected.

[- Qatada -]

I mean that Muhammad found out about some fables and stories that came out after Jesus' death and Muhammad used it in writing Quaran. Thats why in Quaran there are so many places and people from the Bible, simply because muslim prophet Muhammad was in contact with christians for some time and he heard about it and then used it in Quaran.

First of all, he was an illiterate man. :) Allaah says in the Qur'an:

"Say: 'O mankind! ! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided." (Qur'an 7:158)

2nd, there were no copies of the Bible in the Arabian Peninsula at that time. :)


3rd, if you're going to use the argument of Waraqa ibn Nawfal, that argument is totally weak. Since if we look at his history, he was a truth seeker all his life. So if he was searching for the truth - why would he accept Islaam and believe if he himself was a 'teacher'? If he was sincerely seeking the truth all his life?



Regarding them claims;

Mariam the mother of ‘Isa is called a sister of Aaron, and also the daughter of Aaron’s father ‘Imran (Hebr. Amram). Clearly Muhammad has confused Mary (Hebr. Miriam) with Miriam of the Exodus. The two lived more than a thousand years apart!

It turns out that Christians in Najran during the time of the Prophet(P) raised a similar objection and it was answered by the Prophet(P). In Sahih Muslim, the hadith related by Mughirah ibn Shu`bah [5326] says:

When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "O sister of Harun" (i.e. Maryam) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger(P) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them.

This claim of contradiction is apparently mistaken because it disregards both the Arabic idiom and the context of the verse. In Arabic the word akhun or ukhtun (Underlined with Red colour in the images) carries two meanings.

1. Blood brother or sister and
2. Brotherhood/sisterhood in clan and faith.

The above verse has used the word ukhtun in the second sense. This is not unusual as the Qur'an uses the same idiomatic expression in several earlier verses. In chapter 11 verse 78, Prophet Lot refers to the women folk of his community as my daughters.

And his people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practising abominations. He said: "O my people! Here are my daughters: they are purer for you (if ye marry)! Now fear Allah, and cover me not with shame about my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?" [Qur'an 11:78]



http://www.theholybook.org/index.php.../view/9233/12/

In the Bible Haman is the minister of Ahasuerus in Media and Persia (The Book of Esther 3:1-2). Yet the Qur’an places him over a thousand years earlier, as a minister of Pharoah in Egypt.

Aaron, your names Aaron right? If i call you Aaron, does that mean i'm making a historical mistake since that was the name of Prophet Moses's brother?

The same way Haman can be the name of another man also.

The Qur’an has a Samaritan making the golden calf, which was worshipped by the Israelites in the wilderness (Ta Ha 20:85) during the Exodus. In fact it was Aaron (Exodus 34:1-6). The Samaritans did not exist until several centuries later. They were descendants of the northern Israelites centuries after the Exodus.

We as muslims don't disrespect our Prophets and claim that they commited blasphemy. Since that is blasphemy in of itself.

Jesus’ titles of Messiah and Word of God, which the Qur’an uses, find no explanation in the Qur’an. Yet in the Bible, from which they are taken, these titles are well integrated in a whole theological system.

The Messih in the arabic language i think comes from the meaning to 'wipe', and Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) would wipe the eyes of some people, and they would be able to see again, all by the will of Allaah through His Messenger, Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him.)

[وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَـهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ]

(And His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by] Him;) means, He said,
[كُنَّ]


(Be) and he was. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ahmad bin Sinan Al-Wasiti said that he heard Shadh bin Yahya saying about Allah's statement,


[وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَـهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ]

(and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by] Him;) "`Isa was not the word. Rather, `Isa came to existence because of the word.'' Al-Bukhari recorded that `Ubadah bin As-Samit said that the Prophet said,


&#171;مَنْ شَهِدَ أَنْ لَا إِلهَ إِلَّا اللهُ، وَحْدَهُ لَا شَرِيكَ لَهُ، وَأَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا عَبْدُهُ وَرَسُولُهُ، وَأَنَّ عِيسَى عَبْدُاللهِ وَرَسُولُهُ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِنْهُ، وَأَنَّ الْجَنَّةَ حَقٌّ، وَالنَّارَ حَقٌّ، أَدْخَلَهُ اللهُ الْجَنَّةَ عَلَى مَا كَانَ مِنَ الْعَمَل&#187;

(If anyone testifies that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger, and that `Isa is Allah's servant and Messenger and His Word which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true and Hell is true, then Allah will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he performed.) In another narration, the Prophet said,


&#171;مِنْ أَبْوَابِ الْجَنَّةِ الثَّمَانِيَّةِ يَدْخُلُ مِنْ أَيِّهَا شَاء&#187;

(...through any of the eight doors of Paradise he wishes.) Muslim also recorded it.

http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12973

The Biblical narratives are rich with historical details, many confirmed by archaeology. They cover more than a thousand years, and reveal a long process of technological and cultural development. In contrast the Qur’an’s sacred history is devoid of archaeological support. Its fragmentary and disjointed stories offer no authentic reflection of historical cultures. No place name from ancient Israel is mentioned, not even Jerusalem. Many of the supposed historical events reported in the Qur’an have no independent verification.

The Qur'an discusses locations and the required information when it is relevant. :)


I.e.

They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon: the blasphemers Were, not Solomon, but the evil ones, teaching men Magic, and such things as came down at Babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. [Qur'an 2: 102]

In that situation it's required to understand where that trial was happening, since it has an important historical context to it. When it's not relevant, it's not required, yet when it is - it's mentioned.


I've already mentioned to you about the Jerusalem issue,

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque (Masjid Al Aqsaa' in Jerusalem), whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

[Qur'an 17: 1]

For example we are told that Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba in Mecca (Al-Baqarah 2:127), but this is totally without support. The Biblical account, more than a thousand years older, does not place Abraham anywhere near Arabia.

That's the bibles fault, not ours. :)

[- Qatada -]

Yes yes so many versions of Bible we have, hundreds or thousands maybe right? catholic Bible, orthodox Bible, Lutheran Bible, Calvin Bible, american Bible, polish Bible. etc tec, but isnt this strange that all catholics, orthodox, protestants in all over the world, Africa, USA Europe China and Sri Lanka, believe in the core and fundamental christian belief that Jesus Christ, Son of God, was sent on earth to die for our sins and then He ressurected.

That's not true at all. Loads of christians differ on who Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) is. Some say he is god, some say he is the 'son' of god. Others say that he died, others say he never died.


All the christians have different beliefs, and the majority have their own personal beliefs which may even contradict the version or book they have.




Peace.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Was the Qur'an compiled from previously revealed scriptures?

1- Had the Qur’an been contrived from old scriptures, Muhammad's adversaries would not have ignored the matter and remained silent. They would undoubtedly have seized the opportunity to accuse him to that effect . All their allegations were unfounded and lacked proof. The Qur’an itself has already mentioned these allegations and their refutation.

2- The Qur’an includes many laws, instructions and commands which did not exist in the previous scriptures. Furthermore the Qur’an contains narratives with detailed accounts of previous generations in addition to prophecies which were fulfilled. An example of this was the final outcome of the conflict between the Romans and Persians, the events of which were unknown to Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, his people and the followers of Judaism and Christianity.

3- The Qur’an urged people to acquire knowledge and to respect the human mind and intellect. Accordingly, based on Islam's new teachings and rulings, the Muslims were able, in a very short time, to establish a civilization which replaced the preceding civilization and flourished for many centuries. Had the Qur’an been compiled from the previous divine religions why then did these religions not include the aforementioned precept and teachings and did not play the same role as Islam?

4- The Qur’an is a book the style of which is consistent and eloquent. Had it been compiled from other scriptures it would have been incoherent, contradictory and inconsistent due to the alleged various sources. Moreover, the Qur’an, always addresses one’s sense and reasoning and does not include fables and myths. It relies upon evidence and facts and demands the same of its adversaries: Allah’s says: “Say: Bring your proof, if ye are truthful!” (An-Naml:64) This approach is considered a completely new approach and does not exist in any previous scripture.


In addition to the previous authentic refutation, one may add:

1- The Qur’an related facts totally unknown to the People of the Books. For example it narrated the story of Zakariah and the birth of the Virgin Mary and his guardianship of her. The Qur’an also devoted whole chapter to the Virgin Mary, which is unparalleled in the New Testament. Where could the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, possibly have acquired these facts?

2- It is related in Exodus that it was Pharaoh’s daughter who adopted Moses as a baby, whereas the Qur’an states that Pharaoh’s wife found him and adopted him. We also read Exodus that “Aaron fashioned the gold and moulded the calf …” that was worshipped by the Jews, whereas the Qur’an states that Samiri was the culprit and that Aaron was innocent.

3- If the Qur’an had been derived from the Holy Scriptures of the Jews and Christians, why did Islam reject the principle of the Trinity which is a fundamental belief in Christianity? Why did Islam also reject the belief in the crucifixion of Christ, redemption, inherited sin and the divinity of Christ?

4- The Qur’an presents the Prophets of Allah as ideals of morality and virtue, whereas the Old Testament states that some of them committed sins, and this is incompatible with the veneration accorded to them by Islam.

5- Religious observances commanded in the Qur’an such as praying, fasting, obligatory charity and the pilgrimage to Makkah in addition to the instructions and teachings stated as to the manner of how each observance is to be performed are matters that are unparalleled and are not mentioned in any other religion. The five daily prayers are performed in a certain manner at appointed times with the recital of certain specific verses of the Qur’an. Fasting entails total abstinence from food drink and physical desire from dawn till sunset. Charity varies in quantity and the way that is given. The Pilgrimage entails circling around the Ka`ba, being assembled in great gathering at Mount Arafat, going to and forth seven times between As-Safaa and Al-Marwa, and stoning Satan. These are all religious observances, which are specifically related to Islam. Which religion could possibly have been the source of these religious observances?”


Based on the above, it has become crystal clear to all that Islam, in general, and the Qur'an, in particular, is something great and unique. Needless to say that Islam has made lawful to people things that were previously made totally prohibited. In Sura Al-An`aam, we read: “


Say: I find not in that which is revealed unto me aught prohibited to an eater that he eat thereof, except it be carrion, or blood poured forth, or swineflesh for that verily is foul or the abomination which was immolated to the name of other than Allah. But whoso is compelled (thereto), neither craving nor transgressing, (for him) lo ! your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful. Unto those who are Jews We forbade every animal with claws. And of the oxen and the sheep forbade We unto them the fat thereof save that upon the backs or the entrails, or that which is mixed with the bone. That We awarded them for their rebellion. And lot We verily are Truthful.”(Al-An`aam:145-146)


Almighty Allah makes it clear to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and all Muslims that the Glorious Qur'an is totally different from all previous laws; it is unique in its nature. Allah says:


“ And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced out way.” (Al-Ma’idah:48)


Here, we would like to highlight the point that, for example, the Jewish legislation ordered for the killing of a person as a way of accepting his repentance. Accordingly, when a person commited a sin and later wanted to repent, he would be subject to killing as a sign of showing genuine repentance and for his repentance to be accepted. This is mentioned in the Qur’an in the verse that reads: “And when Moses said unto his people:


"O my people! Ye have wronged yourselves by your choosing of the calf (for worship) so turn in penitence to your Creator, and kill (the guilty) yourselves. That will be best for you with your Creator and He will relent toward you. Lo! He is the Relenting, the Merciful.” (Al-Baqarah:54)


In the law imbedded in the Qur'an the case is totally different, for winning Allah's forgiveness needs nothing more than showing repentance and regret for the previous sin; i.e. in order to be forgiven for any sin, a person is asked to show repentance to Allah and make a covenant never to transgress the limits again or to commit any sin. How unique and great the Qur'an is! It can never be claimed that it is fabricated or derived from other laws. It is unique in nature, in rules and in the guidance which it showers on the whole human race."


Some stories (which are also found in the Bible) are related in the Glorious Qur’aan for the benefit of Muslims, to enable them to learn from experience of earlier generations. They also contains specific rulings that are designed to guide the Muslims and their society from falling into that traps that caught their predecessors.


http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Some of their descriptions will be right and some wrong, I don't disagree, their understanding of God is wrong, but at the same time, within that understanding they do have a part which is right, they claim to worship The Creator, The First and the Last, The sustainer.

bro if 0.000001% is different, their God and our God is different... it must fully 100% agree !

[Keltoi]

That's not true at all. Loads of christians differ on who Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) is. Some say he is god, some say he is the 'son' of god. Others say that he died, others say he never died.


All the christians have different beliefs, and the majority have their own personal beliefs which may even contradict the version or book they have.




Peace.

Would you mind giving an example of these Christians who do not believe Christ is divine?

[- Qatada -]

Would you mind giving an example of these Christians who do not believe Christ is divine?

Jehovas witnesses? :)

[Balthasar21]

That's not true at all. Loads of christians differ on who Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) is. Some say he is god, some say he is the 'son' of god. Others say that he died, others say he never died.




All the christians have different beliefs, and the majority have their own personal beliefs which may even contradict the version or book they have.




Peace.

All the christians have different beliefs, and the majority have their own personal beliefs which may even contradict the version or book they have.

The Above Can Go For Muslims Also




That's not true at all. Loads of christians differ on who Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) is. Some say he is god, some say he is the 'son' of god. Others say that he died, others say he never died.

The Above Is True

[- Qatada -]

All the christians have different beliefs, and the majority have their own personal beliefs which may even contradict the version or book they have.

The Above Can Go For Muslims Also

Nope it's not. Since we ALL believe and agree upon One Book atleast - the Qur'an. :) And we have our religion preserved for us, and the praise is for Allaah.

[vpb]

God is almighty so He can do whatever He wants. He can be in three parts , being one part in the same time.

so what you are saying is that God can also lie?? cuz if you say he can do whatever he wants then he can lie??? God can also cheat, and say to u on day of judgement , "you worshiped a lamb", bc God "can cheat", depending on your saying that God can do whatever he wants?? then how godly is for God, to lie to cheat to be in three forms???

Dr zakir naik explained it very well.
God will never intend to do things which are ungodly. God will never intend to lie, cheat, or become a human or become in three forms. bc the moment God does those things , they he doesn't seem to be God anymore. God only intends things which are godly (ie. be just, not lie.....etc etc).

Erm, when exactly do you speak to Christians? If you speak to them in the streets or on the board or when they teach you then of course the only think they will mainly speak to you about is the Trinity. It's a da'wah thing for them.

I've lived with a christian pastor, I've gone to church, I've stayed with christians, I've met them in the uni.

Do they worship The creator? If you want me to show you they do then I will, if they do then we estblish they worship Allah, but also they worship others besides Him.

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

There you go, they worship the Creator, they also worship the created things besides the creator and say that the created and the creator are one. I agree, but none the less they worship the Creator AND the created. Simple.

You keep talking about the trinity and this and that, but do you agree that part of the trinity includes The Creator? I.e. that they direct some of their worship to God, The Creator, if yes, then that is it, they worship Allah but they worship others WITH Allah.

bro, with all respect, you don't get the theme of the topic.
We are not talking about the powers, we are talking here about the God itself. as I have learned christians focus mainly on Jesus. Everything goes with Jesus. he created everything, he will judge them , he forgave their sins etc. and u don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize that they take mainly Jesus as God, while we believe Jesus was a prophet , may peace be upon him. Cuz we both believe God is the creator, but who is that creator? what are this God's virtues that we are discussing. and obviously the God christians believe don't have the same virtues as the God we believe.

For me it is interesting. Jesus Christ seems to be the issue which is important for so many people, not only christians. Muslims say that Jesus was a muslim. Communists say that Jesus was a revolutionist. Even buddhists claim that for them Christ is something important. We all people of the world, Jews, muslims, christians, hindus, measure time according to Christ's born. For muslims Jesus will be the one who appears at the end of the world to judge people. Why Jesus, not the last muslim prophet Muhammad?

just bc Microsoft Windows is used everywhere it doesn't mean it's the best operating system. It doesn't serve as independent proof. and we muslims don't measure time based on christian calendar, we measure time based on Hijri calendar. But bc we use christian calendar that's a different thing, cuz I'm forced to use it. But we have our own calendar. and yes jesus will come, to judge, and support muslims :D :) and to implement the law that Muhammed saws came, the person which you don't see as important :)

Brother and according to Quaran who is responsible for creating christianity if not Allah? It was Allah who took away muslim Isa from a cross and made people believe that He died there. Christians believed that after His death, He ressurected, so Allah is responsible for creating the biggest religion in the world, and the biggest rival for islam. Where is logic in this ? Why would Allah made a faith that keeps stealing "true believers" from islam during the ages?

People who lived with Jesus were true worshipper of Allah, they didn't have the belief you have know. so your assumptions are coming using your beliefs. It was later made that Jesus dies for sins and this and that. but this doesn't give u the reason to justify your answer, bc Allah sent you the guidance, so you know the truth, to tell you who really Jesus was, but bc you don't accept that is a different thing. There is a very good logic. is Allah stealing you from true believers? no, it is you , you have the truth in Qur'an, but you choose to steal yourself from true believers. Allah has made truth clear from error. So don't blame anyone. it is you to blame yourself, that you dont' want to accept the truth.

[Balthasar21]

Nope it's not. Since we ALL believe and agree upon One Book atleast - the Qur'an. :) And we have our religion preserved for us, and the praise is for Allaah.

Are You Saysing All Muslims Adhere To The Same School Of Though ?

[- Qatada -]

Are You Saysing All Muslims Adhere To The Same School Of Though ?

We talking about scripture Balthasar. :) the Qur'an is the Divine Book, and there is no alteration in it since it's been preserved by Allaah for us.

[Balthasar21]

We talking about scripture Balthasar. :) the Qur'an is the Divine Book, and there is no alteration in it since it's been preserved by Allaah for us.

So your saying you have the origianal copy of the Quraan Yes ?

By the way nice flip

[- Qatada -]

So your saying you have the origianal copy of the Quraan Yes ?

By the way nice flip

The one compiled by the companions of Allaah's Messenger (peace be upon him) yes. :)

-------------------------------------
Uthmani Qur'an* -
- compiled by the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.)

[- In the Topkapi Museum of Turkey, Istanbul today -]

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...s/topkapi.html

If you want to continue this conversation, open a new thread please.





Peace.

[vpb]

Jesus Christ acts like He is God and talks like He is God. He ressurected people from dead, He healed the sick, He multiplied food, He repented sins, He was killed and ressurected.]

Al Habeshi , don't you see? he is refering to Jesus as God, now don't we muslims believe Jesus a.s was a prophet? does this Jesus look the same God as Allah swt????

and now replying to you aron,

Jesus did those miracles, we don't reject them, but Allah swt gave the right to Jesus to perform these miracles in order to prove to people that he is the messenger of Allah. Just like other prophets who came with different miracles. now you might ask why jesus was given power to do these things but not other prophets, the answer is that during the times when prophets were sent, there was different mentality. at old times, magic was very famous, so that's why prophets of Allah performed miracles to show people, during the time of Muhammad saws, the language was the most famous, so He was given the Qur'an, the main miracle, or if we look today, language is not the most famous thing anymore, but it's science. so in order to challange a nation you have to be good in science, but at Muhammad's time was language, at Jesus's time was miracles. So just bc Jesus perfomed miracles it doesn't mean he is God, now you are pasting me verses from Bible to prove your point, but I don't want to offend u , but bible is not reliable, and we believe it has been corrupted. so it means that the beliefs of companions of Jesus didn't have the same beliefs as you do now.

Many Qur’anic stories can be traced to Jewish and Christian folktales and other apocryphal literature. For example a story of Abraham destroying idols (As-Saffat 37) is found in a Jewish folktale, the Midrash Rabbah. The Qur’anic story of Zachariah, father of John the Baptist, is based upon a second-century Christian fable. The story of Jesus being born under a palm tree is also based on a late fable, as is the story of Jesus making clay birds come alive. Everything the Qur’an says about the life of Jesus which is not found in the Bible can be traced to fables composed more than a hundred years after Jesus’ death.

so?? do you wanted Allah know to "lie" (astagfirullah) on these stories just in order to make it look different from bible or torah??? truth is truth, it doesn't matter wether it matches with bible or any other book. Allah swt sent the Qur'an to confirm the previous revelations (Bible(injeel) and the Tawrat(Torah) ) . It doesn't mean that bible was 100&#37; corrupt, but enough to change it's fundamental belief to some other beliefs which Allah didn't tell His messenger to teach.

I mean that Muhammad found out about some fables and stories that came out after Jesus' death and Muhammad used it in writing Quaran. Thats why in Quaran there are so many places and people from the Bible, simply because muslim prophet Muhammad was in contact with christians for some time and he heard about it and then used it in Quaran. For exampe see-

Please I advise you to read more about Qur'an and Prophet Muhammed saws. if you would now about him you wouldn't speak this, unless you would want to be arrogant.

The Above Can Go For Muslims Also

we have "muslims" who have different beliefs, but we know what is the correct source . we don't have doubts what is the correct source to learn from :)

[vpb]

Are You Saysing All Muslims Adhere To The Same School Of Though ?

there is a difference beliving in different pieces of holy books, and beliving in one holy book but commenting it different in minor issues.
also we are talking about different commenting of minor issues. bc there is no school of thought who for ex. says "no it's not 5 daily prayer but 4". Schools of thoughts are just mercy from Allah swt.

[Amadeus85]

That's not true at all. Loads of christians differ on who Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) is. Some say he is god, some say he is the 'son' of god. Others say that he died, others say he never died.


All the christians have different beliefs, and the majority have their own personal beliefs which may even contradict the version or book they have.




Peace.

Im sorry to say this but you are an ignorant.Otherwise you dont know what you talk about or you purposely say not truth. All christians believe that Jesus Christ is Son of God and God in the same time, as God The Son is equal to God The Father. You say that all christians have different beliefs, but could you show some examples, except just talking? Actually christians dont differ about Christ, catholics, protestans, and orthodox agree that He is God in human flesh, sent on earth to die for our sins, and ressurected after 3 days.

[Amadeus85]

Jehovas witnesses? :)

Again and again, would you never learn and understand at last that jehovas witnesses are NOT christians, they dont even call themselves like that ! Saying that jehova witnesses are christians is like saying that Bahai are muslims.

[Amadeus85]

Dr zakir naik explained it very well.

I am sorry but i prefer to believe in the Bible than dr Naik :D

[- Qatada -]

Im sorry to say this but you are an ignorant.Otherwise you dont know what you talk about or you purposely say not truth. All christians believe that Jesus Christ is Son of God and God in the same time, as God The Son is equal to God The Father. You say that all christians have different beliefs, but could you show some examples, except just talking? Actually christians dont differ about Christ, catholics, protestans, and orthodox agree that He is God in human flesh, sent on earth to die for our sins, and ressurected after 3 days.

I've spoken to many different types of christians on the forum Aaron, i've even spoken to one who said that Jesus was god walking on earth.


I'll tell you where all the confusion lies though, - not even one person can explain how 3 = 1. That's because Allaah has created us in a way that we know that 3 can't equal 1, because 1 is 1, and 3 is 3. It's either singular, or more than that.


You know your Creator and Sustainer is One, and He is ALONE worthy of worship. So you don't need any intermediarries, if He gives you all you have in this world, you be thankful to Him, you be obedient to Him for all the good which He has given you. I wouldn't be pleased if i gave soo much good to one person, and they thanked another person instead for the good which I gave. If God/Allaah has given you ALL you have - then you need to be obedient to Him.

And (remember) when your Lord proclaimed: "If you give thanks (by accepting Faith and worshipping none but All&#226;h), I will give you more (of My Blessings), but if you are thankless (i.e. disbelievers), verily! My Punishment is indeed severe."

[Qur'an 14: 7]

If someone is ungrateful to God, and associate others as partners with Him - then that is doing injustice, to yourself and to Allaah/God, your Provider and the One who created you when you were just a sperm drop.

Allaah says:

“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).

Peace. :)

[- Qatada -]

Again and again, would you never learn and understand at last that jehovas witnesses are NOT christians, they dont even call themselves like that ! Saying that jehova witnesses are christians is like saying that Bahai are muslims.

I've never heard of that before, but sure - if you say that then sure. But how do you differentiate between which is the true denomination?

We as Muslims have the Authentic Qur'an and the Authentic Sunnah (Prophetic way) to differentiate between truth and falsehood.


What is the christian way to find out which is the true path?

[Amadeus85]

How can i believe that Quaran is not corrupted while Allah didnt manage to keep unchange his words in Injil and Tora?
How can a human being change Allah's word?
Man is like a little warm in comparission to God, so how can this little, weak creature corrupt the word of god?

[Amadeus85]

I've never heard of that before, but sure - if you say that then sure. But how do you differentiate between which is the true denomination?

We as Muslims have the Authentic Qur'an and the Authentic Sunnah (Prophetic way) to differentiate between truth and falsehood.


What is the christian way to find out which is the true path?

In christianity the difference between denominations is not based on the Jesus Christ issue. Because we all, catholics, orthodox, protestans believe that Christ is Son of God, who died on a cross for our sins and after 3 days He ressurected.

[vpb]

How can i believe that Quaran is not corrupted while Allah didnt manage to keep unchange his words in Jibril and Tora?

Injil not jibril :) don't worry :)

First, if you check the history of Qur'an, you will see that there wasn't any possible solution for Qur'an to be corrupted. It's not that Allah didn't manage to keep torah and injeel without being corrupted, but He got the 'contract' if we could call, that they wouldn't change the book, but they did, some intentionally, some unintentionally . but Allah swt, has decided to protect himself the Qur'an , since it is the book till the day of judgment. so now whoever tries, whether intentionally or unintentionally, they will not be able to.

How can a human being change Allah's word?

as I said on the above point, Allah got the troth (if is the right word, cuz english is my second language) from people that they will save it, but they changed it, for economic political, reasons. Also some did unintentionally.

Man is like a little warm in comparission to God, so how can this little, weak creature corrupt the word of god?

it seems your three question are the same. God knew that they were corrupting it, so that's why after Torah, he sent injeel to put people in the straight path, but they did same with bible, so Allah swt sent the Qur'an, which confirms the previous books, and it will remain unchanged till day of Judgement. bc Allah this time will protect Himself.

If you want to know more about the preservation of Qur'an, just shout and we will provide u with resources :)

[- Qatada -]

How can i believe that Quaran is not corrupted while Allah didnt manage to keep unchange his words in Jibril and Tora?
How can a human being change Allah's word?
Man is like a little warm in comparission to God, so how can this little, weak creature corrupt the word of god?

When Allaah sent the revelation to the Children of Israeel, they had to pass it onto the next generation. Usually through the scholars and the knowledgable. Allaah never promised to preserve their texts for them, since that was their duty. Why? Because they never had to convey the message to the rest of mankind, because that law was specifically for their people within that certain time in history.


When Allaah sent the message to His final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) - He made this message for all of humanity. As Allaah says:

"Say: 'O mankind! ! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."

(Qur'an 7:158)

So because Allaah had made this message for ALL of mankind, our duty is to convey the message clearly to the rest of mankind. Whereas for the Children of Israeel, it was their duty to preserve it but they never had to pass it on - their test was to keep it intact.


For the Qur'an, Allaah says:

Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur'&#226;n) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)

[Qur'an 15: 9]

Check any copy of Qur'an in the world today, whether it's from India, UK, China, Arabia or anywhere in the world - and ALL of them are intact, the same. And it is memorised by millions upon millions throughout the Islamic history. :)




Peace.

[vpb]

In christianity the difference between denominations is not based on the Jesus Christ issue. Because we all, catholics, orthodox, protestans believe that Christ is Son of God, who died on a cross for our sins and after 3 days He ressurected.

don't orthodox or protestant worship Mary?

[- Qatada -]

In christianity the difference between denominations is not based on the Jesus Christ issue. Because we all, catholics, orthodox, protestans believe that Christ is Son of God, who died on a cross for our sins and after 3 days He ressurected.

Okay thankyou, so this leads to the question - if someone stole some thousands of pounds, and the police came to your house to arrest you - would you go to jail for that first person? Would that be justice?


Personally i don't think that's fair. Since God is All Just - He wouldn't punish someone else for someone elses sins. You carry your own good deeds and sins, and i carry my own, and Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) has his own good, and he will be rewarded for that by Allaah on the Day of Judgement.


Every soul carries its own good deeds, and bad deeds. No soul bears the burden of another.




Peace.

[vpb]

also if we look the other way, when a child is born, basically he will have the sins that Adam made, based on your belief. Now let's say the child is still 2 years old. Now we know that without accepting Jesus as the savior, you have the sins, which you can't enter heaven, so u believe that you should believe in Jesus's blood in order for your sins to be paid. Now how about if the kid 2 years old, who can't still think and make decisions, die and go to heaven??? in this case, the kid dies without choosing christ as the savior and died with the sins. so the kid should go to hell (how fair is for the kid who still can;t decide or think clearly go to hell? how just is this?) now if we say, no God will forgive the kid's sin since he is a child or the kid will enter paradise with sins, then is the rule of beliving in Jesus's blood broken and excluded for kids?

that's why Allah swt told us that every human is born clean without sins, and born with the natural belief of beliving in one God. so if the kid dies, he is still clean and will go to heaven with having God make exclusions.

[Amadeus85]

don't orthodox or protestant worship Mary?

No, catholics ask Mary to intercede for them before God. Mary is important only as a mother of Christ.

[vpb]

No, catholics ask Mary to intercede for them before God. Mary is important only as a mother of Christ.

I didn't say they ask Mary to intercede, I said they worship Mary. there is a difference between intercession and worshipping.

[Amadeus85]

Okay thankyou, so this leads to the question - if someone stole some thousands of pounds, and the police came to your house to arrest you - would you go to jail for that first person? Would that be justice?


Personally i don't think that's fair. Since God is All Just - He wouldn't punish someone else for someone elses sins. You carry your own good deeds and sins, and i carry my own, and Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) has his own good, and he will be rewarded for that by Allaah on the Day of Judgement.


Every soul carries its own good deeds, and bad deeds. No soul bears the burden of another.




Peace.

Heaven is a perfect place and only perfect, sinless and with pure soul persons can go there. And are we sinless and perfect? No. Thats why someone sinless and perfect had to pay His life for us. So we can go to heaven if we believe in Him.

[Amadeus85]

I didn't say they ask Mary to intercede, I said they worship Mary. there is a difference between intercession and worshipping.

Listen, i am a catholic myselfe and i dont worship to Mary as to another God, but for catholics she is saint and she can intercede for us before God.

[vpb]

Heaven is a perfect place and only perfect, sinless and with pure soul persons can go there. And are we sinless and perfect? No. Thats why someone sinless and perfect had to pay His life for us. So we can go to heaven if we believe in Him.

this is not the point bro Qatada was making. his point was about inheriting adam's sin. how just is for us to inherit adam's sin when we did nothing?

[vpb]

Listen, i am a catholic myselfe and i dont worship to Mary as to another God, but for catholics she is saint and she can intercede for us before God.

ye I know, but certainly orthodox or protestant they worship Mary. one of them.

[Trumble]

ye I know, but certainly orthodox or protestant they worship Mary. one of them.

Neither do. The Orthodox tradition certainly venerates Mary, but adherents do not 'worship' her.

[vpb]

Neither do. The Orthodox tradition certainly venerates Mary, but adherents do not 'worship' her.

oh yes they do. one of them certainly do.

[Amadeus85]

Here i want to show proofs that the Bible contain the historical truth based on archeological works. I know that it is bit out of topic but still interesting.

Evidence for the authenticity and accuracy of the Bible began to surface virtually the instant archaeologists started to scratch the surface of the biblical lands in the mid-1800s.

One of the earliest of these scientific explorers was the American Edward Robinson. He identified the location or ruins of literally hundreds of biblical towns and cities by a remarkably simple method: He simply talked to the Arab inhabitants, who had preserved the traditional names of the locations in their own tongue for centuries! Subsequent excavations at many of these sites have proven they were correct; the names were indeed passed on accurately over many generations.

Shortly after Robinson's first forays into the Holy Land, English, German and French excavators began to explore ruins in what is today Iraq. Their finds were staggering. They uncovered not only the great cities of the Assyrian and Babylonian empires mentioned in the Bible, but palaces and monuments of the very kings recorded in the Scriptures. Some even contained accounts of military campaigns that matched the Bible's, as well as carvings depicting the actual battles. (See "The Mighty Assyrian Empire Emerges From the Dust,")

Another major shock to those who maintained that the Bible was myth was the 1876 discovery of proof of an entire empire that had been lost to history. Though they are mentioned 47 times in the Bible, many scholars had come to regard the Hittites as simply a fable.

However, the discovery of inscribed clay tablets at a Turkish site led to an excavation that uncovered a fortified citadel, five temples, enormous stone sculptures and a room containing more than 10,000 tablets.

Says archaeologist and author Randall Price: "Once they were finally deciphered it was announced to the world that the Hittites had been found! [The site] had in fact been the ancient capital of the Hittite empire . . . The rediscovery of this lost people, one of the most outstanding achievements in Near Eastern archaeology, now serves as a caution to those who doubt the historicity of particular biblical accounts" (The Stones Cry Out, 1997, p. 83).

By no means are these the only people and empires mentioned in the Bible whose existence has since been proved by the archaeologist's spade. As more sites have been explored, many more peoples and even specific individuals recorded in the Scriptures have been verified as real.

As recently as a decade ago, some argued that Israel's most famous king, David, was but a myth. The record of the Bible wasn't good enough, they insisted; proof of his existence must be found elsewhere.

In 1993 that proof emerged when Israeli archaeologists discovered an inscription that referred to the royal dynasty David founded. Recorded on a monument some 150 years after David's death, the inscription commemorates the victory of the king of Damascus over the forces of Israel and their king, who was "of the house [dynasty] of David" (see "An Ancient Inscription Proves David Was Real," page 5).

Over the years dozens of artifacts and inscriptions bearing the names of individuals mentioned in the Bible have been uncovered. In 1982 a cache of 51 ancient baked-clay seals that were used to bind papyrus or parchment scrolls was uncovered in a Jerusalem excavation. One bore the impression of the seal of "Gemaryahu [Gemariah] the son of Shaphan." This same "Gemariah, the son of Shaphan," was a scribe in the court of Judah's king Jehoiakim as mentioned in Jeremiah 36:10-12,25-26.

In 1975 another hoard of seals emerged, apparently uncovered in unauthorized digging in Jerusalem. One bore the name of Ishmael, the man who assassinated Gedaliah, the governor appointed by the Babylonians after they destroyed Jerusalem (2 Kings 25:25).

Even more surprising, another seal bore the name "Berekhyahu [Baruch] son of Neriyahu [Neriah] the scribe." This man was none other than "Baruch the scribe," trusted friend, confidant and scribe of Jeremiah the prophet (Jeremiah 36:4-32; 43:1-6; 45:1-2).

As if that were not astounding enough, another seal in a private collection in England was found to bear not only Baruch's name but a fingerprint along one edge-apparently Baruch's own fingerprint from when he impressed his seal into the soft clay some 2,600 years ago!

These are only a few of the finds that prove specific people mentioned in the Bible-many only in an incidental way-were indeed real and lived at the exact time and in the exact location in which the Bible places them. A complete list of such finds would fill many pages of this magazine.

What about the critics' assertion that the Bible couldn't have been written when it claimed to be because the ancient Hebrews didn't know how to write at that time? This assumption was demolished in 1979 when, in the course of excavating a tomb in Jerusalem from the seventh century B.C., archaeologists discovered two tiny gray cylinders.

The objects turned out to be silver foil amulets covered with delicately etched Hebrew characters. When deciphered they were found to contain most of the words of the blessing recorded in Numbers 6:24-26. This remarkable find proved that not only did the ancient Hebrews know how to write centuries earlier than critics said they did, but one of the oldest portions of the Bible was obviously in use at a time well before the critics maintained it had been written!

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn039/bible.html

[vpb]

first,
recently in america they made the new "translation" of the bible, where many verses where changed slightly their meaning in the name of translation. in order to change all verses referring to jews as criminals and bad people to verses that speak softly about jews.

if you want more information on this, just shout I'll show u the whole story including the verses. I just wanted briefly to explain since I gotta go to get some sleep now.


second,



http://www.religioustolerance.org/john_8.htm
http://members.aol.com/JAlw/trinity_forgery.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/F...16/errors.html
http://www.awitness.org/column/forge...esy_bible.html

http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/l...y/ch1.2.5.html
http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/index.html
http://societies.csc.tcd.ie/~theo/inaug.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris-Dionysus
http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/dionysus.htm

(credits for these links go to 'Philosofer') :)




I hope these two points are enough evidence to show that even now, let alone before, bible gets changed. I don't want to offend anyone, but since you made the post about "archaeological facts" , than I have to respond :) I don't want to go really on detail about bringing proof about bible, cuz it's not the intention of this forum to do so .

[Amadeus85]

first,
recently in america they made the new "translation" of the bible, where many verses where changed slightly their meaning in the name of translation. in order to change all verses referring to jews as criminals and bad people to verses that speak softly about jews.

Recently , in the same USA a muslim woman made a new "translation" of the Quaran, in which she changed or remove all the verses about mistreating of women, killing unbelievers, non-equality between men and women, mistreating of Jews, violent Jihad etc .
So according to your point of view, we have 2 Quarans now. :D

[vpb]

Recently , in the same USA a muslim woman made a new "translation" of the Quaran, in which she changed or remove all the verses about mistreating of women, killing unbelievers, non-equality between men and women, mistreating of Jews, violent Jihad etc .
So according to your point of view, we have 2 Quarans now

hahahhhahhahahahahahahhaha :D, do you realize that the Quran translated is not Qur'an any more??

Quran = in Arabic
Translation of Qur'an = in English.

So according to your point of view, we have 2 Quarans now.

hahahah where??? :) there is one Qur'an in arabic that I know. I don't know any other Qur'an. :)

it's so sad when you try to apply such things to Qur'an :)

[vpb]

btw, I forgot to mention. those changes in Bible where made by American Bible Society sponsored by the American Interfaith Institute :)

[Amadeus85]

hahahhhahhahahahahahahhaha :D, do you realize that the Quran translated is not Qur'an any more??

Quran = in Arabic
Translation of Qur'an = in English.



hahahah where??? :) there is one Qur'an in arabic that I know. I don't know any other Qur'an. :)

it's so sad when you try to apply such things to Qur'an :)

But this american muslim woman still claims that she translated Quaran, she is even a muslim scholar and she would highly disagree with you. :D

Salaam

[vpb]

But this american muslim woman still claims that she translated Quaran, she is even a muslim scholar and she would highly disagree with you.

I told you Qur'an translated is not Qur'an anymore.
They can make 100 translations, even let them take verses off , let them make it 2 chapters. Still the Qur'an remains in arabic. Every single muslim in the world uses the same Qur'an which is in arabic. I haven't come across one single muslim who had a different Qur'an (in arabic).
lolll. She has to disagree with all the scholars that existed on the face of this earth, and with muslims, and even with non-muslims too.


btw, who is this famous woman scholar that I dont know of?


hahahhah omg :)

i think you better edit your posts, so nobody sees them :) cuz they;re hilarious.

[Amadeus85]

I told you Qur'an translated is not Qur'an anymore.
They can make 100 translations, even let them take verses off , let them make it 2 chapters. Still the Qur'an remains in arabic. Every single muslim in the world uses the same Qur'an which is in arabic. I haven't come across one single muslim who had a different Qur'an (in arabic).
lolll. She has to disagree with all the scholars that existed on the face of this earth, and with muslims, and even with non-muslims too.


btw, who is this famous woman scholar that I dont know of?


hahahhah omg :)

i think you better edit your posts, so nobody sees them :) cuz they;re hilarious.

I will finish with you tommorrow, because now im going to sleep :D
Sweet dreams dude :thankyou:

[vpb]

I will finish with you tommorrow, because now im going to sleep

Sweet dreams dude

hahaha what are you going to finish?? finish telling about "this scholar who changed the Qur'an" by making a different translation??? ;D;D;D

Recently , in the same USA a muslim woman made a new "translation" of the Quaran, in which she changed or remove all the verses about mistreating........

haha. u know I thought alapiana was keeping the record, but seems u broke it tonight. You're in the first place now :D

[MustafaMc]

Erm, when exactly do you speak to Christians? If you speak to them in the streets or on the board or when they teach you then of course the only think they will mainly speak to you about is the Trinity. It's a da'wah thing for them.




Do they worship The creator? If you want me to show you they do then I will, if they do then we estblish they worship Allah, but also they worship others besides Him.

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

There you go, they worship the Creator, they also worship the created things besides the creator and say that the created and the creator are one. I agree, but none the less they worship the Creator AND the created. Simple.

You keep talking about the trinity and this and that, but do you agree that part of the trinity includes The Creator? I.e. that they direct some of their worship to God, The Creator, if yes, then that is it, they worship Allah but they worship others WITH Allah.

As a former Christian, I would have to agree with Br. Al Habeshi and respectfully disagree with Br. vpb. There is no question whatsoever that Christians worship Allah albeit as the Father component of the Trinity. Jesus taught the disciples how to pray in the "Lord's Prayer" Matthew 6:9-13 After this manner therefore pray ye. "Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil [one.]"

They worship Allah as the Father because they do in fact address their prayers to the Father and end their prayer with "in the name of your son, Jesus". The central point is that Christians ascribe partners with Allah by claiming that Jesus is God at the same time the Father is God and they even add a nebulous Holy Spirit to the equation.

So, yes, there is only One God to worship, but we believe that they err in saying that Jesus is as much God as the Father is.

[MustafaMc]

For me it is interesting. Jesus Christ seems to be the issue which is important for so many people, not only christians. Muslims say that Jesus was a muslim. Communists say that Jesus was a revolutionist. Even buddhists claim that for them Christ is something important. We all people of the world, Jews, muslims, christians, hindus, measure time according to Christ's born. For muslims Jesus will be the one who appears at the end of the world to judge people. Why Jesus, not the last muslim prophet Muhammad?

I don't know the reason, but I know that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has already died. We Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified or that he died otherwise, but rather he ascended to Heaven without dying. We believe that he will return to earth toward the end of time and will die before Judgement Day.

[MustafaMc]

Brother and according to Quaran who is responsible for creating christianity if not Allah? It was Allah who took away muslim Isa from a cross and made people believe that He died there. Christians believed that after His death, He ressurected, so Allah is responsible for creating the biggest religion in the world, and the biggest rival for islam. Where is logic in this ? Why would Allah made a faith that keeps stealing "true believers" from islam during the ages?

How can you prove that it was Allah who created Christianity as we know it today? How can you prove that it was not Satan, through Saul of Tarsus, who created Christianity to mislead people from the Straight Way?

[MustafaMc]

No, catholics ask Mary to intercede for them before God. Mary is important only as a mother of Christ.

Wikipedia: Hail Mary

The original Greek text of the prayer is as follows:

Θεοτόκε Παρθένε, χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη Μαρία, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ. εὐλογημένη, σὺ ἐν γυναιξί, καὶ εὐλογημένος ὁ καρπὸς τῆς κοιλίας σου, ὅτι Σωτήρα ἔτεκες τῶν ψυχῶν ἡμῶν.

Mother of God and Virgin, hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast given birth to the Saviour of our souls.

Well if someone is the "Mother of God" shouldn't she be worshipped? It seems that Christians don't properly honor Mary. As Gomer Pyle would say, "Shame, shame, shame!"

[Balthasar21]

The one compiled by the companions of Allaah's Messenger (peace be upon him) yes. :)

-------------------------------------
Uthmani Qur'an* -
- compiled by the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.)

[- In the Topkapi Museum of Turkey, Istanbul today -]

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...s/topkapi.html

If you want to continue this conversation, open a new thread please.





Peace.

For the record A copy isn't the original Ok :) , And Starting New Post Your Only Going To Delete Anyway ,

[vpb]

As a former Christian, I would have to agree with Br. Al Habeshi and respectfully disagree with Br. vpb. There is no question whatsoever that Christians worship Allah albeit as the Father component of the Trinity. Jesus taught the disciples how to pray in the "Lord's Prayer" Matthew 6:9-13 After this manner therefore pray ye. "Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil [one.]"

They worship Allah as the Father because they do in fact address their prayers to the Father and end their prayer with "in the name of your son, Jesus". The central point is that Christians ascribe partners with Allah by claiming that Jesus is God at the same time the Father is God and they even add a nebulous Holy Spirit to the equation.

So, yes, there is only One God to worship, but we believe that they err in saying that Jesus is as much God as the Father is.

but they're not saying that God is seperate in three, so we could refer the Father to Allah, but they are saying that their God is 3 personas in one being, and their God's virtues and concept is totally different from the God (Allah az) that we worship.
Very clearly we can see that we worship different God, we believe they have the same powers, they created everything etc. but they are not the same God we worship.

[Sinbad]

but they're not saying that God is seperate in three, so we could refer the Father to Allah, but they are saying that their God is 3 personas in one being, and their God's virtues and concept is totally different from the God (Allah az) that we worship.
Very clearly we can see that we worship different God, we believe they have the same powers, they created everything etc. but they are not the same God we worship.

Okay I have kept my mouth shut long enough. I know a lot of unecessary facts, What I am about to add is something I usually dont do.

Defend Islam...

The church edited and corrupted the bible and christianity. A lot changed, and not all of Jesus deciples managed to come in to the bible.
One of them added out was Thomas, he was the best student of Jesus. The most devouted and the one that he was closest to.

The Gospel of Thomas is a New Testament-era apocryphon completely preserved in a papyrus Coptic manuscript discovered in 1945 at Nag Hammadi, Egypt. The book was bound in a method now called Coptic binding. Unlike the four canonical gospels, which combine narrative accounts of the life of Jesus with sayings, Thomas is a "sayings gospel". It takes the less structured form of a collection of sayings attributed to Jesus (including brief dialogues), the writing down of which is attributed to Didymus Judas Thomas. The words Didymus and Thomas are both translated "twin" giving emphasis to the name Judas, a derivative of Judah. The gospel does not have a narrative framework, nor is it worked into any overt philosophical or rhetorical context.
All the texts have been available to the general public since 1975. The Gospel of Thomas has been translated, published and annotated in several languages. The original version is the property of Egypt's Department of Antiquities. The first photographic edition was published in 1956, and its first critical analysis appeared in 1959.[1]
The Gospel begins with the words, "These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymus Judas Thomas wrote down. And he said, 'Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death.'"
The work comprises 114 sayings attributed to Jesus. Some of these sayings resemble those found in the four canonical Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John). Others were unknown until its discovery, and a few of these run counter to sayings found in the four canonical gospels.
When a Coptic version of the complete text of Thomas was found, scholars realized that three separate Greek portions of it had already been discovered in Oxyrhynchus, Egypt, in 1898. The manuscripts bearing the Greek fragments of the Gospel of Thomas have been dated to about AD 200, and the manuscript of the Coptic version to about 340. Although the Coptic version is not quite identical to any of the Greek fragments, it is believed that the Coptic version was translated from an earlier Greek version.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_...s#Translations

Okay here it comes, me defendeing islam+o(

Gospel of Thomas:15
Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father."

Jesus was only a prophet, but the corrupted church didnt want it to their corrupted bible...

May I be forgiven for aiding islam, but I could not be quiet.

[vpb]

prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father.

isn't that what we call sujood in Islam?

[Phil12123]

Gospel of Thomas:15
Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father."

That verse does not make any sense from Christian or Muslim perspectives. From the Muslim perspective, Allah is not considered anyone's father. And from the Christian perspective, God the Father "who was not born of woman" is invisible, so "when you see" Him is not happening. Jesus, Who was "born of woman" is "the image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15). That is why He said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). So, I would conclude the Gospel of Thomas, or at least this verse, is spurious.

[Trumble]

The church edited and corrupted the bible and christianity. A lot changed, and not all of Jesus deciples managed to come in to the bible.One of them added out was Thomas, he was the best student of Jesus. The most devouted and the one that he was closest to.

You are presenting hypothesis and speculation as fact. As another non-muslim (and non-Christian) I'd point out that you are making some very large assumptions. The biggest is that the Gospel of Thomas was actually written by Didymus Judas Thomas. We have no more evidence of authorship than the canonical gospels, indeed, due to the later date, rather less. It is, in fact, very unlikely, although that does not rule out the possibility that some or all of the sayings attributed to Jesus were true.

In fact we have absolutely no idea why it was "added out" (?). It is possible that your speculation as to some sort of conspiracy is correct. It is also possible that it was known, or least strongly suspected, not to be genuine at the time... people then were in a rather stronger position to research that conclusively than we are today. A third, and IMVHO even more liekly possibility is that circulation of the Gospel of Thomas was so restricted (which would rather go along with dubious authorship) that the Christian 'mainstream' had simply never come across it.

I think the Gospel of Thomas is a fascinating document, not least because of some very interesting parallels with my own belief, but as with all such 'lost' material it is intellectually dishonest to present it as having equal status with the canonical gospels just because the title includes the word 'gospel'.

[MustafaMc]

Okay here it comes, me defendeing islam+o(

Gospel of Thomas:15
Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father."

Jesus was only a prophet, but the corrupted church didnt want it to their corrupted bible...

May I be forgiven for aiding islam, but I could not be quiet.

Yes, prostrate is equivalent to the Islamic "sujood". What this verse tells me is that we should not worship a human, born of a woman. The title "father" is either what Jesus (pbuh) used to refer to Allah, or it is a mis-translation into Greek from what he said. I don't see that we should get hung up on this title, because Jesus was clearly referring to the One God when he taught the disciples how to pray with the Lord's Prayer.

The reasons why only some of the multitude of writings avaivable to the Council of Nicea and Hippo were approved by them will probably never be known. It is reasonable to think that these people decided on what Christianity was to become (trinitarian - Athanasius or monotheistic - Arius) and they approved of writings that were consistent with the decided-upon-beliefs delineated by the Nicene Creed.

Wikipedia Nicene Creed
First Council of Nicea (325)

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;by whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.And in the Holy Ghost.

[vpb]

Yes, prostrate is equivalent to the Islamic "sujood". What this verse tells me is that we should not worship a human, born of a woman. The title "father" is either what Jesus (pbuh) used to refer to Allah, or it is a mis-translation into Greek from what he said. I don't see that we should get hung up on this title, because Jesus was clearly referring to the One God when he taught the disciples how to pray with the Lord's Prayer.

The reasons why only some of the multitude of writings avaivable to the Council of Nicea and Hippo were approved by them will probably never be known. It is reasonable to think that these people decided on what Christianity was to become (trinitarian - Athanasius or monotheistic - Arius) and they approved of writings that were consistent with the decided-upon-beliefs delineated by the Nicene Creed.

jews used to refer to themselves as sons of God. but later they changed its meaning and took it for real as son of God.

[- Qatada -]

No, catholics ask Mary to intercede for them before God. Mary is important only as a mother of Christ.

“And they worship besides Allaah things that harm them not, nor profit them, and they say: ‘These are our intercessors with Allaah’”

[Yoonus 10:18]


“And those who take Awliyaa’ (protectors, helpers, lords, gods) besides Him (say): ‘We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allaah’”
[al-Zumar 39:3]



And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" they would surely say, " Allah [God] ." Say, "Then have you considered what you invoke besides Allah ? If Allah intended me harm, are they removers of His harm; or if He intended me mercy, are they withholders of His mercy?" Say, "Sufficient for me is Allah ; upon Him [alone] rely the [wise] reliers."

[Qur'an Zumar 39:38]



And your Lord said: "Call upon Me, I will answer you. Verily, those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!''. [Qur'an Ghaafir 40:60]


http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...hen-allah.html

[Phil12123]

Well if someone is the "Mother of God" shouldn't she be worshipped? It seems that Christians don't properly honor Mary.

As a Protestant, I reject that title, "Mother of God," for Mary the mother of Jesus' physical body. If "God" is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, no one is the Mother of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If anything, Mary was only the mother of the Son's physical body. His body was not God, so how can she be the "Mother of God"? Besides, that expression is nowhere found in the Bible, even the Catholic Bible.

[vpb]

As a Protestant, I reject that title, "Mother of God," for Mary the mother of Jesus' physical body. If "God" is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, no one is the Mother of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If anything, Mary was only the mother of the Son's physical body. His body was not God, so how can she be the "Mother of God"? Besides, that expression is nowhere found in the Bible, even the Catholic Bible.

I strongly suggest to watch the beginning of the video, the speech from the man in white clothes, basically the first part of the video. It talks about , what you quoted. the whole "Son of God" thing.

http://www.watchislam.com/videos/embed.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watchislam.com%2Fvi deos%2Ffull_length%2Fflash2%2Fcreator_and_creation _islam_and_terrorism.flv&type=media

[MustafaMc]

Wikipedia: Hail Mary

The original Greek text of the prayer is as follows:

Θεοτόκε Παρθένε, χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη Μαρία, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ. εὐλογημένη, σὺ ἐν γυναιξί, καὶ εὐλογημένος ὁ καρπὸς τῆς κοιλίας σου, ὅτι Σωτήρα ἔτεκες τῶν ψυχῶν ἡμῶν.

Mother of God and Virgin, hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast given birth to the Saviour of our souls.

Well if someone is the "Mother of God" shouldn't she be worshipped? It seems that Christians don't properly honor Mary. As Gomer Pyle would say, "Shame, shame, shame!"

As a Protestant, I reject that title, "Mother of God," for Mary the mother of Jesus' physical body. If "God" is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, no one is the Mother of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If anything, Mary was only the mother of the Son's physical body. His body was not God, so how can she be the "Mother of God"? Besides, that expression is nowhere found in the Bible, even the Catholic Bible.

To start with I hope that you realize that I was being sarcastic with the last paragraph of my post to make a point. I can understand why you as a Protestant reject the title "Mother of God", but logically.....

1) Jesus is claimed by Christians to be the Son of God and at the same time fully God.

2) There is no question, but that Mary was the biological mother of Jesus.

3) Mary was a virgin at least until after Jesus was born.

4) God the Father is claimed to be the father of Jesus because Jesus is the Son of God.

Therefore, if Jesus is God (#1) and Mary was Jesus' mother (#2), then Mary must be the Mother of God. If Mary was a virgin (#3) when she "conceived" Jesus then how can God the Father inseminate Mary to become Jesus' father (#4)? Was there artificial insemination back then?

Isn't it much more logical that God just said, "Be!" and Jesus was miraculously created in the womb of a virgin, Mary, without the intervention of any natural or super-natural father?

Quran 3:59-60 In fact the example of the birth of Isa ( Jesus) in the sight of Allah is like the example of Adam who had no father and mother, whom He created out of dust, then said to him: "Be" and he was. This is the Truth from your Rabb, therefore, do not be of those who doubt it.

[Phil12123]

To start with I hope that you realize that I was being sarcastic with the last paragraph of my post to make a point. I can understand why you as a Protestant reject the title "Mother of God", but logically.....

1) Jesus is claimed by Christians to be the Son of God and at the same time fully God.

2) There is no question, but that Mary was the biological mother of Jesus.

3) Mary was a virgin at least until after Jesus was born.

4) God the Father is claimed to be the father of Jesus because Jesus is the Son of God.

Therefore, if Jesus is God (#1) and Mary was Jesus' mother (#2), then Mary must be the Mother of God. If Mary was a virgin (#3) when she "conceived" Jesus then how can God the Father inseminate Mary to become Jesus' father (#4)? Was there artificial insemination back then?

Isn't it much more logical that God just said, "Be!" and Jesus was miraculously created in the womb of a virgin, Mary, without the intervention of any natural or super-natural father?

Quran 3:59-60 In fact the example of the birth of Isa ( Jesus) in the sight of Allah is like the example of Adam who had no father and mother, whom He created out of dust, then said to him: "Be" and he was. This is the Truth from your Rabb, therefore, do not be of those who doubt it.

This what the Word of God says concerning Jesus' conception in Mary:

Matthew 1:
18. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
19. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly.
20. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21. "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.''
22. Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23. "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,'' which is translated, "God with us.''
24. Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
25. and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

Luke 1:
26. Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27. to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary.
28. And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!''
29. But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
30. Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31. "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32. "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33. "And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.''
34. Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?''
35. And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

I think the above speaks for itself. No mention of Mary being the "Mother of God." It really doesn't even mention God the Father, though it does say the child will be called the Son of God. Matthew only mentions the angel of the Lord telling Joseph that the child is of the Holy Spirit. Luke mentions Gabriel telling Mary the Holy Spirit would come upon her and the power of the Highest would overshadow her. Sounds like good proof texts for the teaching that the Holy Spirit is God, not that Mary is the Mother of God.

So your idea just didn't happen, or at least it is not so stated in the Word of God.

[MustafaMc]

I think the above speaks for itself. No mention of Mary being the "Mother of God." It really doesn't even mention God the Father, though it does say the child will be called the Son of God. Matthew only mentions the angel of the Lord telling Joseph that the child is of the Holy Spirit. Luke mentions Gabriel telling Mary the Holy Spirit would come upon her and the power of the Highest would overshadow her. Sounds like good proof texts for the teaching that the Holy Spirit is God, not that Mary is the Mother of God.

So your idea just didn't happen, or at least it is not so stated in the Word of God.

Yes, I am familiar with the Biblical story of Jesus' "conception". I noticed that you did not refute my logic though, nor did you comment on the Quranic "creation" of Jesus in Mary's womb as opposed to his Biblical "conception" by the Holy Spirit. So Jesus was conceived of God the Holy Spirit, but he calls God the Father - "father". :? However, the Bible says that Jesus was the son of Joseph. Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself, when he began [to teach], was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the [son] of Heli, but then again it seems that Luke was just supposing this to be so.

As for me, I will go with the Quranic version and leave it at Jesus did not have a father - he only had a mother.

[doorster]

Is the ONE GOD of Islam the same as the GOD of the Bible?

Which Bible?
kjv and it's derivatives or Jewish Bible?


kjv and it's derivatives, Not a chance to a 1+1+1=1 [to me it sounds as plausible as Zeus and his family]

Jewish Bible, Yes

don't know any Coptics so cannot say if their god is an adaptation of greek mytholgy+roman sungod= a triune too or not

"We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you(Jews and Christian, I exclude Trinitarians as they remind me of similarity to pagans); Our Il&#226;h and Your Il&#226;h is One (All&#226;h), and to Him we have submitted".

[Phil12123]

Yes, I am familiar with the Biblical story of Jesus' "conception". I noticed that you did not refute my logic though,

I believe what I said before you offered your logic was enough to refute it. Let me repeat it: "Mary [was] the mother of Jesus' physical body. If "God" is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, no one is the Mother of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If anything, Mary was only the mother of the Son's physical body. His body was not God, so [she cannot] be the "Mother of God". The fallacy of your logic is found in your premise no. 2, in that Mary was only the biological mother of Jesus' body, certainly not His Deity.

nor did you comment on the Quranic "creation" of Jesus in Mary's womb as opposed to his Biblical "conception" by the Holy Spirit.

I do not want to speculate. The child was "of the Holy Spirit" and Mary was overshadowed by the power of the Highest when the Holy Spirit came upon her. I do not know anything more than that, or even what that exactly entails. From our human perspective, it would seem like there had to be fertilization of Mary's egg in some way or fashion, but the details of how that was accomplished, or if that's how things happened, are not disclosed. So why not leave it at that?

I'm also not sure I see the need for a "Be"-sort of creation in Mary's womb. If that were done, why not create the entire adult male like Adam was created, saying "Be" and He was just there? The reason that could not BE the case (pun intended), is that there were things to be fulfilled in His being born of a virgin and being of the House of David, etc., etc.

I think the Quranic version is merely an attempt to avoid any possible situation where Allah had a son. Mary can have a son; she's human. But Allah cannot have a son, so he can only have Jesus by creation, not conception. There again you are putting a limitation on God. You have decided, or Muhammad decided, that Allah could not do something. He was made in the image of Muhammad, made not all-powerful, to avoid the excesses that Muhammad probably saw in some of the Catholics of his day (worship of Mary and the Christ child, etc.). So Allah was not able to conceive or cause the conception of Jesus in Mary's womb; Allah had to instead create the sperm that fertilized Mary's egg.

The problem with the latter version is that, where does that allow for Christ's preexistence? If Allah created the sperm and Mary produced the egg, you would have Jesus coming into existence for the first time at that time. It is true that the "flesh" part of "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14) did come into existence for the first time at that point. But we know (or at least I know) from verses like John 1:1 and John 8:58, that Jesus existed before He became flesh and dwelt among us. So how does your version allow for that? I don't think it does.

So Jesus was conceived of God the Holy Spirit, but he calls God the Father - "father". :?

Yes. He also said, "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves" (John 14:11). Don't ask me to explain that either. If I could explain God, I'd be God.

However, the Bible says that Jesus was the son of Joseph. Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself, when he began [to teach], was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the [son] of Heli, but then again it seems that Luke was just supposing this to be so.

No, Luke was not supposing that Joseph was Jesus' father. He doesn't say that. He merely says, Jesus was "the son (as was supposed) of Joseph..." He does not say WHO supposed He was the son of Joseph, but certainly not LUKE since He knew all about Mary's visitation by Gabriel, etc., and therefore KNEW that Joseph was not Jesus' biological father.

[Phil12123]

Which Bible?
kjv and it's derivatives or Jewish Bible?

kjv and it's derivatives, Not a chance to a 1+1+1=1 [to me it sounds as plausible as Zeus and his family]

Jewish Bible, Yes

Either Bible, if you think there is a difference. Do you think there is a difference between the Jewish Bible's God and the God of the KJV's Old Testament? Can you show me that difference, citing verses from each that demonstrate it?

Don't they both say, "Let us make man in our image after our likeness"?

[MustafaMc]

I believe what I said before you offered your logic was enough to refute it. Let me repeat it: "Mary [was] the mother of Jesus' physical body. If "God" is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, no one is the Mother of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If anything, Mary was only the mother of the Son's physical body. His body was not God, so [she cannot] be the "Mother of God". The fallacy of your logic is found in your premise no. 2, in that Mary was only the biological mother of Jesus' body, certainly not His Deity.

Forgive me, Captain, for being so Spock-like, but this isn't logical.

I do not want to speculate. The child was "of the Holy Spirit" and Mary was overshadowed by the power of the Highest when the Holy Spirit came upon her. I do not know anything more than that, or even what that exactly entails. From our human perspective, it would seem like there had to be fertilization of Mary's egg in some way or fashion, but the details of how that was accomplished, or if that's how things happened, are not disclosed. So why not leave it at that?

Yes, since Jesus is a male, then that requires a Y-chromosome from somewhere if there was a conception. An act of miraculaous creation doesn't require it though.

I'm also not sure I see the need for a "Be"-sort of creation in Mary's womb. If that were done, why not create the entire adult male like Adam was created, saying "Be" and He was just there? The reason that could not BE the case (pun intended), is that there were things to be fulfilled in His being born of a virgin and being of the House of David, etc., etc.

Yes, God works in mysterious ways.

I think the Quranic version is merely an attempt to avoid any possible situation where Allah had a son. Mary can have a son; she's human. But Allah cannot have a son, so he can only have Jesus by creation, not conception. There again you are putting a limitation on God. You have decided, or Muhammad decided, that Allah could not do something. He was made in the image of Muhammad, made not all-powerful, to avoid the excesses that Muhammad probably saw in some of the Catholics of his day (worship of Mary and the Christ child, etc.). So Allah was not able to conceive or cause the conception of Jesus in Mary's womb; Allah had to instead create the sperm that fertilized Mary's egg.

I see this as a most serious error as Muhammad did not make Allah in his image. What comic book did you drag this one out of?

The problem with the latter version is that, where does that allow for Christ's preexistence? If Allah created the sperm and Mary produced the egg, you would have Jesus coming into existence for the first time at that time. It is true that the "flesh" part of "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14) did come into existence for the first time at that point. But we know (or at least I know) from verses like John 1:1 and John 8:58, that Jesus existed before He became flesh and dwelt among us. So how does your version allow for that? I don't think it does.

The Quran does not say anything about Jesus existing prior to his birth. So, there is no conflict with creation by "Be!" in Mary's womb.

Yes. He also said, "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves" (John 14:11). Don't ask me to explain that either. If I could explain God, I'd be God.

I agree that our understanding is limited

No, Luke was not supposing that Joseph was Jesus' father. He doesn't say that. He merely says, Jesus was "the son (as was supposed) of Joseph..." He does not say WHO supposed He was the son of Joseph, but certainly not LUKE since He knew all about Mary's visitation by Gabriel, etc., and therefore KNEW that Joseph was not Jesus' biological father.

Well, it seems to me that Luke was the author of the Gospel According to Luke and that he was narrating the genealogy of Jesus. The NIV says "He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph," you can twist the words how you want, but that is what the Bible says.

[Phil12123]

The Quran does not say anything about Jesus existing prior to his birth. So, there is no conflict with creation by "Be!" in Mary's womb.

Then you are confirming what I suspected, that the "creation" idea was to avoid Allah's having a son and to make Jesus' existence begin at that moment, denying both Biblical doctrines.

Well, it seems to me that Luke was the author of the Gospel According to Luke and that he was narrating the genealogy of Jesus. The NIV says "He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph," you can twist the words how you want, but that is what the Bible says.

Yes, but he does not write, "so we thought" but merely "so it was thought" without saying by whom. His account of Gabriel's visitation with Mary conclusively shows HE did not think that. He knew otherwise.

[barney]

The bible is two Gods.
1) Old Testament where you have a God tearing citys apart and hammering down plauges and destruction, stoning unbeleivers and ordering human sacrifices. Very much the Old school "God". Identical to Aztec Gods , Norse & "pagan" gods & spirits, all worshipped the world over. The only thing seperating this God from the others was he was their only one and he was the God of the Jews.

2) New testament: New God..made into man...love kindness, turning the other cheek, healing the sick, brotherhood of man and Loving the children. No massacers , no fire.

It's two totally Different Gods.

[Phil12123]

The bible is two Gods.
1) Old Testament where you have a God tearing citys apart and hammering down plauges and destruction, stoning unbeleivers and ordering human sacrifices. Very much the Old school "God". Identical to Aztec Gods , Norse & "pagan" gods & spirits, all worshipped the world over. The only thing seperating this God from the others was he was their only one and he was the God of the Jews.

2) New testament: New God..made into man...love kindness, turning the other cheek, healing the sick, brotherhood of man and Loving the children. No massacers , no fire.

It's two totally Different Gods.

So, is the ONE GOD of Islam the same as one of those two?

I don't think so, but then you have 3 different gods, don't you?

[barney]

Well, I think the God of Islam is something different from these two.

The ideology is more Old testament than New, but I'm doubtful that they are the same God. (In a construct where any of them are Gods)

[Phil12123]

Well, I think the God of Islam is something different from these two.

The ideology is more Old testament than New, but I'm doubtful that they are the same God. (In a construct where any of them are Gods)

So, which of the three would you lean toward, in a construct where any of them are Gods?

[barney]

So, which of the three would you lean toward, in a construct where any of them are Gods?

Hmm, difficult.

God 1 says that he is all merciful and loveth man, but he massacerd every living thing on the planet that wasnt inside a boat the size of a frigate. He was the creator of mankind, but sought the jews out as special. He was obsessed with animal sacrifice and had a great interest in DIY as in the building of the arc of the covenent. The day after he said "thou shalt not kill" he ordered the massacer of 3000 jews who built a toy cow. He's cranky, unstable and gets things totally wrong almost all the time.

So i'm not voting for him.

God 2 says he's all merciful. He has created humans with free will, but they exercise it badly, so he copys himself into flesh and gets himself topped to placate himself from his own wrath. He condones and encourages slavery, sacrifice and misogeny, whilst preaching love and tolerance whilst knocking down temples and ordering killings.

I'll pass on him as well.

The third pretty much copies the first but out of deference to the Islamic forums that we are hosted on, i'll skip on the details.

In an attempt to find out if there was a creator a few months back, I asked the creator to show me a sign. Something that was not too obvious, not too hard. "creator, if you can interact with me , can you let me see a plastic duck in the next few days"

It's been over 60 days and i've been in a lot of shops, bathrooms and watched a lot of TV. Not a single plastic duck.
God can apparently Move Mountains with a grain of faith. well I was actually looking for him, and he couldnt show us a single duck.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all;

Regardless of what any of us choose to believe, the same God hears all our prayers.

In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[MustafaMc]

Greetings and peace be with you all;

Regardless of what any of us choose to believe, the same God hears all our prayers.

In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith friendship

Eric

I agree that the same God hears our Jewish, Christian and Muslim prayers. For me there is no question, but there is One God. However, what differs is our concept, or understanding, of Him and our relationship to Him.

[vpb]

Then you are confirming what I suspected, that the "creation" idea was to avoid Allah's having a son and to make Jesus' existence begin at that moment, denying both Biblical doctrines.

what did Jesus do, that makes you believe He is son of God?

[DAWUD_adnan]

lol

Islam: One God , Prophets

Christianity: son, mother, father, ( lol)

Which God would you worship, OOOoops i only see ONE God, see how easy it is?

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam,

a)no! no! we're worhiping one God, Jesus,God the Father and Holy Spirit is actually God Himself but in 3 manifestation.

b)Why are they communicate each other if they actually one?

c)Actually we're never meet any christian can explain this, and we don't want to be arrogant pretending like we know everything about God like you do.

d)what? you don't know to at least describe the main Doctrine of your believe?i think you just associate God with unnecessary thing.

a)no! no! we're worhiping one God, Jesus,God the Father and Holy Spirit is actually God Himself but in 3 manifestation.

b)Why are they communicate each other if they actually one?

c)Actually we're never meet any christian can explain this, and we don't want to be arrogant pretending like we know everything about God like you do.

d)what? you don't know to at least describe the main Doctrine of your believe?i think you just associate God with unnecessary thing.

a)no! no! we're worhiping one God, Jesus,God the Father and Holy Spirit is actually God Himself but in 3 manifestation.

b)Why are they communicate each other if they actually one?

c)Actually we're never meet any christian can explain this, and we don't want to be arrogant pretending like we know everything about God like you do.

d)what? you don't know to at least describe the main Doctrine of your believe?i think you just associate God with unnecessary thing.

it seems like this conversation will continue till The Hour..

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all

Each one of us says I believe, which means I do not know for sure and that is truthful for each one of us to say I believe. God will know for sure what beliefs were given to each one of us, and I suspect God will judge us more by how we act on these beliefs.

How can we build communities if we are all neighbours with different beliefs?

Can we learn to live in peace with our differences?

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

[MuhammadRizan]

salam.

How can we build communities if we are all neighbours with different beliefs?

without provoking each other...

Can we learn to live in peace with our differences?

what?.........we're not live in peace right now?....are we still killing each other?

[Phil12123]

In an attempt to find out if there was a creator a few months back, I asked the creator to show me a sign. Something that was not too obvious, not too hard. "creator, if you can interact with me , can you let me see a plastic duck in the next few days"

It's been over 60 days and i've been in a lot of shops, bathrooms and watched a lot of TV. Not a single plastic duck.

God can apparently Move Mountains with a grain of faith. well I was actually looking for him, and he couldnt show us a single duck.

Interesting. So, I'm wondering... If you had seen a duck, what would you have done then? Looked for god no. 4 somewhere? I mean, how would you know which god showed it to you?

[barney]

Interesting. So, I'm wondering... If you had seen a duck, what would you have done then? Looked for god no. 4 somewhere? I mean, how would you know which god showed it to you?

Nope, I would have accepted it as some sort of a sign. The depth of beleif would have varied with the situation.

A Glowing 40ft plastic duck appearing in the sky 100%
A plastic duck dropping immediatly on my head 99%
A Plastic duck being on the work desktop when i returned to it a few mins later 90%
A Plastic Duck being in my bathroom and bought spontaneously by the missus for no reason 66%
A Picture of a plastic duck on my TV within a hour 50%
Ditto but within 2 days 30%
A plastic duck in a shop window or shelf 10%
No Plastic duck at all 0%

Which God would it have represented? Umm the creator of the world. Had I been able to communicate directly, i would ask, "hey so are you anything to do with Jesus-God, Allah or The Emperor Hirohito?"

I suspect it would reply , nope, thats just some wannabe figments created by lonely men.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

there is One God. However, what differs is our concept, or understanding, of Him

and our relationship to Him.

The problem being that our relationship with God puts barriers up between our relationship with each other when there are differences.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth.

Eric

[Phil12123]

what did Jesus do, that makes you believe He is son of God?

He said He was, for one thing.

John 9:
29. "We know that God spoke to Moses; as for this fellow, we do not know where He is from.''
30. The man answered and said to them, "Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He has opened my eyes!
31. "Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him.
32. "Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind.
33. "If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing.''
34. They answered and said to him, "You were completely born in sins, and are you teaching us?'' And they cast him out.
35. Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?''
36. He answered and said, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?''
37. And Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.''
38. Then he said, "Lord, I believe!'' And he worshiped Him.

John 10:
24. Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.''
25. Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
26. "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
30. "I and My Father are one.''
31. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?''
33. The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.''
34. Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, `I said, "You are gods'' '?
35. "If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36. "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
37. "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38. "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.''

John 11:
1. Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
2. It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.
3. Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, "Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.''
4. When Jesus heard that, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.''

There's more that He said but that should suffice. "In the mouth of two or three witnesses let everything be established." I'm sure you're aware of all the other witnesses, but in case not, I will call as my next witness....

...THE ANGEL GABRIEL:

"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, [Mary,] and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God."

...GOD THE FATHER:

"This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.'' (Matt. 3:17)

...THE DEVIL:

"If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.''
"If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down." etc.

The devil knows Who Jesus is but was mocking Him here, challenging Who He is after God the Father had said, "This is My beloved Son, etc." The devil, who is a liar, did not say Jesus wasn't the Son of God, so his merely questioning that, with an "If," is a tacit admission that He is the Son of God. And, of course, if the devil could get the Son of God to worship him, he would have scored a huge victory.

...THE DEMONS:

"You are the Son of God.'' (Mark 3:11).

"What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?'' (Matt. 8:29)

The demons that Jesus cast out of their victims knew Who Jesus was---the Son of God---and that He would be the Judge that would one day cast them into the Lake of Fire to be tormented forever and ever along with the Devil, and thus their statement, "Have You come here to torment us before the time?"---the time that they would be cast into eternal torment.

...JOHN THE BAPTIST:

"And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.'' (John 1:34)

...NATHANAEL:

"Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!'' (John 1:49)

...PETER:

"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'' (Matt. 16:16)

...THE CROWD AND THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS THAT MOCKED HIM AS HE HUNG ON THE CROSS:

"You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.''

"He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.' '' (Matt. 27: 40, 43)

...THE CENTURION:

"Truly this was the Son of God!'' (Matt. 27:54)

I rest my case.

[MustafaMc]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;



The problem being that our relationship with God puts barriers up between our relationship with each other when there are differences.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth.

Eric

Eric,

I wonder why that is. Perhaps our beliefs are part of our perception of reality and an integral part of who we are. When we encounter others with beliefs that are different from ours it makes us uncomfortable, particularly when both are confident of their beliefs. No Muslim is comfortable with a Christian saying that Jesus (pbuh) is the Son of God yet at the same time fully God and no Christain is comfortable with a Muslim saying that Jesus (pbuh) was no more than a Servant, Prophet and Messenger of God.

Christian and Muslim beliefs are so similar yet in the end they are diametrically opposed. Perhaps, the religious differences exist as a means of testing each of us as to how we interact with those different from us.

Peace.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

Perhaps, the religious differences exist as a means of testing each of us as to how we interact with those different from us.

I think you are right, it seems strange that the same God who created you and gave you the freedom to be a Muslim, also created me and gave me the freedom to be a Christian. In both our faiths it says that God chooses whom he wills, but it seems that the same God chooses in many different ways.

We should have a duty of care to look after God’s creation and that translates into caring for each other because we are all a part of the same God’s creation. It seems that we should strive to build communities were people of mixed faiths support and help each other.

We should not hate the things that God creates, and again that translates into we should not hate each other.

Somehow we should search for what is best in each other despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

To respond to the thread title – Yes. God is clearly defined in the Old Testament, New Testament and Qu’ran as being the God of Abraham.

All three religious traditions point their adherents towards an Abrahamic type of personal friendship with God which cannot be earned, but received through God’s love and grace.

Jesus revealed that God could be known in a more intimate way - that of a loving heavenly Father. He explained that knowing God as a Father, who knows everything about us and cares about our life and future, can be accomplished through a process of adoption.

The choice then is ours. Whether to know God as some unapproachable judge through our religious traditions (Christian, Jewish, or Muslim), or choose to be adopted into His family and know Him as a loving Father and friend. I have chosen the latter.

Regards,
Grenville

[Phil12123]

Regardless of what any of us choose to believe, the same God hears all our prayers.

I agree that the same God hears our Jewish, Christian and Muslim prayers. For me there is no question, but there is One God. However, what differs is our concept, or understanding, of Him and our relationship to Him.

I'm not so sure God hears, in terms of listens to and responds to, all our prayers. Consider these verses, one passage from the OT and the other from the NT:

Isaiah 59:
1. Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; nor His ear heavy, that it cannot hear.
2. But your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear.

John 9:
31. "Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him."

Sin separates us from God, Who is Holy. For the unsaved, non-Christian, there is no promise in the Bible that God hears and answers his prayers, unless it is the sinner's prayer of repentance, as in Luke 18:13. After being reconciled to God and having his sins forgiven through the blood of Christ, the new believer has many prayer promises in God's Word that say God hears and will answer his prayers.

I don't mean to get off topic, but while we were mentioning prayer the above thoughts seemed appropriate. If anyone has a different view, based on their understanding of Allah, feel free to express it.