Life on earth as a test

[KAding]

Hey everyone,

I'm slowly starting to understand many of the ideas and arguments behind Islam and other religions. Yet, there is something that still baffles me about the Abrahamic religions.

If God is omnipotent and is our Creator, why do we need to be tested? I mean, if I would build a car and I would be 100% sure my design would be perfect and the manufacturing process would be faultless, I wouldn't bother test driving it, right?

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm just wondering how the Abrahamic religions explain this. I'm guessing it has something to do with free will?

Thanks :).

KAding

[Keltoi]

Sin is a test I suppose. All three faiths believe mankind is meant to follow a certain path. Free-will decides whether you take the correct path or follow the wrong path into Hell. I suppose that would be the simplest way to put it.

[Abdul Fattah]

I think that are two questions in one and I 'm not certain about the answer of either one and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.

First question: why does Allah subhana wa ta'al test us if he is already omniscient?
But if Allah subhana wa ta'ala would create us, and then throw some of us in hell and some of us in heaven, without even giving us a chance, wouldn't that be unfair? Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows how we will do in this test, but that doesn't

Second question: Why couldn't Allah subhana wa ta'ala just create only good people?

Well let me quote the Qur'an:
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."
They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."
He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"
And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.
We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."
Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
"But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein." (Qur'an al-baqara 2:30-39)

The answer is in there, but I'll let you puzzle it together by yourself for now, don't be afraid to ask for further explanation though :)

[islamirama]

Allah called all the angels together and told them He is going to make Man and put on him on earth as His representative. The angels said this creature will create many mischiefs and Allah said you do not know what I know.

Allah made us with free will. There is predestination involved us well and some get confused, but you have free will in your choices and where you end up depends on what your hands earned.

Allah is very Merciful and Forgiving, He loves for you to repent and return to Him when you sin. He said if there was someone who did not create sin then He would unmake him and make him again so he would sin but then repent. By returning to Allah and repenting, we are showing our need for our Creator and how He is the Master of all.

You gave the analogy of a car and its designer. How about this one instead. Would have a monotonous robot without any faults a human as your child, life partner, traveling companion (co-pilot) or just your students (as a teacher)? . Allah already has creatures (angels) who do not disobey nor sin and do as they are told. He created us bit different just becuase He wanted to, and only He knows His reasons and plans for everything.

hope that helps...

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[wilberhum]

KAding,
Are you married? Have children?

Don’t you show them how much you love them by forcing great suffering on them?
Don’t you demand that they go through rituals to even speak to you?
When they disobey you don’t you torture them for eternity?
Don’t you expect them to kill people that insult you?

Isn’t that the way your parents treated you?

I simply cannot understand why you are baffled. :skeleton:

[- Qatada -]

Hey.


Yes, we have freedom of choice in what we wish to do. I.e. we can go down the good path, or down the evil path.


This is explained in the Qur'an when Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

By the night when it covers
And [by] the day when it appears
And [by] He who created the male and female,

Certainly, your efforts and deeds are diverse (different in aims and purposes);

As for him who gives (in charity) and keeps his duty to Allah and fears Him,
And believes in the best [reward],
We will make smooth for him the path of ease (goodness).

But he who is greedy miser and thinks himself self-sufficient.
And denies the best [reward],
We will make smooth for him the path for evil;


And what will his wealth benefit him when he goes down (in destruction).

Truly! Ours it is (to give) guidance,

And truly, unto Us (belong) the last (Hereafter) and the first (this world).

Therefore I have warned you of a Fire blazing fiercely (Hell);
None shall enter it save the most wretched,
Who denies and turns away.


But the righteous one will avoid it -
[He] who gives [from] his wealth to purify himself

And not [giving] for anyone who has [done him] a favor to be rewarded

But only seeking the countenance of his Lord, Most High.

He surely will be pleased (when he will enter Paradise).


[Qur'an Surah Layl (the Night) 92]

God is the All Knowing, but that doesn't mean that we know our future. Therefore we continue to strive to do good in order to gain God's Pleasure, and His reward. And we abstain from His prohibitions, since they are harmful for us anyway, and that will cause His displeasure.


Also, some may question why God tests us in this life if He knows the answers already. The simple answer is that if God rewarded us, or punished us without us having them deeds and actions infront of our own eyes to bear witness to or against - then we would be confused, maybe feel as if this is injustice. Therefore our own lives will be proof for us, or against us. We pray to Allaah that we are of the successful.



Some relevant verses:

Blessed be He in Whose hands is Dominion; and He over all things hath Power;-

He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-

[Qur'an 67: 1-2]



“Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial, and to Us is your return.” [Sûrah al-Anbiyâ’: 35]


Allah says: “But he who turns away from remembrance of Me, his will be a narrow life, and I shall bring him blind to the assembly on the Day of Resurrection.”

[Sûrah TâHâ: 124]

Allah says:

“Whosoever does right, whether male or female, and is a believer, we shall make them live a good life, and We shall pay them a recompense in proportion to the best of what they used to do.”

[Qur'an Sûrah al-Nahl: 97]

Peace.

[Abdul Fattah]

KAding,
Are you married? Have children?

Don’t you show them how much you love them by forcing great suffering on them?
Don’t you demand that they go through rituals to even speak to you?
When they disobey you don’t you torture them for eternity?
Don’t you expect them to kill people that insult you?

Isn’t that the way your parents treated you?

I simply cannot understand why you are baffled. :skeleton:

How do you expect things to make sense when you compare God with a parent? That analogy is definitely false.

[wilberhum]

How do you expect things to make sense when you compare God with a parent? That analogy is definitely false.

No one ever loved me as much as my mother. I guess you can't see that. I feel sad for you.

If god loved me as much as my mom I would get a swift spanking not eternal torture.

[Abdul Fattah]

No one ever loved me as much as my mother. I guess you can't see that. I feel sad for you.

If god loved me as much as my mom I would get a swift spanking not eternal torture.

You are mistaken.

"You desire the attractions of this world, but Allah desires the next world for you"
Qur’an 8: 67

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Nope, God doesnt love us, He just provides for us every minute of our life. He provides for our parents so they can provide for us.

Don't feel sad for us, we're quite content thank you very much. We don't ask of your pity.

[Pygoscelis]

The question underscores the fundamental conflict between free will and a creator god who is all knowing.

First there is the quandry of if he already knows what you are going to do, then some would argue your path is fixed, and you have only an illusion of free will.

Then there is this further dilema. If God created us and knew we would take the wrong path while creating us, many would argue he/she/it/they purposefully put us down that path. Why create us knowing we would be doomed to hellfire? He could simply look ahead and see who would follow the wrong path and never create them to begin with.

Difficult problems I don't think many believers notice. Some do. More do not.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Sis Jazzy was just joking ^ Allaah does love the believers, and the doers of good.

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...lah-loves.html

The question underscores the fundamental conflict between free will and a creator god who is all knowing.

First there is the quandry of if he already knows what you are going to do, then some would argue your path is fixed, and you have only an illusion of free will.

Allaah knows what we would do, even if we never did it. Yet we choose the path to good, or path of evil. Out of our freedom of choice.

Then there is this further dilema. If God created us and knew we would take the wrong path while creating us, many would argue he/she/it/they purposefully put us down that path. Why create us knowing we would be doomed to hellfire? He could simply look ahead and see who would follow the wrong path and never create them to begin with.

Then Allaah says:

“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).

So again, it's upto you - you take that step towards Allaah, and He will come to you at speed.

Allah the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am. I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

[Authentic - Al Bukhari]

If you don't take that step forward, then you do so for your own loss. Yet if you come closer to Allaah, He has a great reward in store for those who believe and do good works.


If one argues why God created people who will choose to do evil in their life, the basic answer is - if there wasn't evil in this life, then what would those who choose to do good strive for? This whole life is a test, and one of the greatest trials is to choose the good path over the evil, yet even if we do trip or fall into sin, then we repent, learn from our mistake, get back up, and continue striving to do good until we reach our final destination towards Allaah.

Why should Allâh punish you if you have thanked (Him) and have believed in Him. And Allâh is Ever All*Appreciative (of good), All*Knowing.

[Qur'an 4: 147]

Peace.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

Why create us knowing we would be doomed to hellfire?

In truth none of us can really say what God would do in such an instance. Every one who has an opinion about God could be called a theologian; but it has been said that theologians reveal very little about God; rather they reveal more of what is in their own heart.

I believe that God is just merciful and loving in a greater way than a parent who loves their child. But I struggle to understand how God after applying all these qualities would deal with Hitler after death. After all Hitler was a child of God too.

In the spirit of searching for a just and merciful God;

Eric

[- Qatada -]

Eric, we aren't God's children since He is way above that. Alot of philosophers have even argued, that if one was to be a child of God, then why would He punish those who disbelieve and rebellious forever?


Similarly, Allaah Himself says in the Qur'an:

(Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins?

Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"

[Qur'an 5: 18]

We obey God and His Messenger, we strive to do good. Allaah says:

Is then the man who believes no better than the man who is rebellious and wicked? Not equal are they.

[Qur'an 32: 18]

Peace.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Yes I was joking. I was being sarcastic...

[Umar001]

If God is omnipotent and is our Creator, why do we need to be tested? I mean, if I would build a car and I would be 100% sure my design would be perfect and the manufacturing process would be faultless, I wouldn't bother test driving it, right?

What you speak of is a Car which would run perfectly, without its own free choice(will), so that canot be equated with mankind which do have free choice. Furthermore I don't know if it was your intention to strike a simlitude between you testing the car and God testing mankind, but you testing the car would be for you to find out if the car had any problems, where as God testing mankind would not be for God to find out if mankind had problems, since this according to Islam was already known to God.

In my view this would do more justice, if you built a car with free choice, and then without your knowledge you knew that the Car would turn left instead of doing its command of turning right and you said 'Right car I will bulldoze you since you will disobey me' then the car said, 'what? I never disobeyed you'. Where as if you, having your knowledge, took the car for the test in order to show the car that it's own choices, then the car will not be able to claim innocency. So the test drive is not for the driver's knowing but the car's knowing.

Eesa

[KAding]

I think that are two questions in one and I 'm not certain about the answer of either one and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.

First question: why does Allah subhana wa ta'al test us if he is already omniscient?
But if Allah subhana wa ta'ala would create us, and then throw some of us in hell and some of us in heaven, without even giving us a chance, wouldn't that be unfair? Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows how we will do in this test, but that doesn't

Thanks for the answer. I won't go into your second answer, I understand how this might be related to the problem of evil, but this seems a problem in itself? Btw, is that last sentence unfinished? Why doesn't it matter that He knows how we'll do in the test?

If he knows how we'll do in the test and he created us, whats the point of testing? I still don't understand. Why create a person who He'll know will fail in the first place? Or is it possible to 'surprise' God, thanks to the free will he gave us? But in that case He would not know beforehand how we'd perform, right? It's all a bit confusing, but I suppose it's probably a mistake to try and apply logic on God.

Maybe I should take a step back. Why did God create humans in the first place? What is our purpose? Does the Qu'ran explain that? Maybe that sheds some light on this as well?

Thanks :).

[KAding]

What you speak of is a Car which would run perfectly, without its own free choice(will), so that canot be equated with mankind which do have free choice. Furthermore I don't know if it was your intention to strike a simlitude between you testing the car and God testing mankind, but you testing the car would be for you to find out if the car had any problems, where as God testing mankind would not be for God to find out if mankind had problems, since this according to Islam was already known to God.

In my view this would do more justice, if you built a car with free choice, and then without your knowledge you knew that the Car would turn left instead of doing its command of turning right and you said 'Right car I will bulldoze you since you will disobey me' then the car said, 'what? I never disobeyed you'. Where as if you, having your knowledge, took the car for the test in order to show the car that it's own choices, then the car will not be able to claim innocency. So the test drive is not for the driver's knowing but the car's knowing.

Eesa

Very good point. The analogy was indeed flawed I suppose. So the test is not for God but for ourselves.

[- Qatada -]

If he knows how we'll do in the test and he created us, whats the point of testing? I still don't understand. Why create a person who He'll know will fail in the first place? Or is it possible to 'surprise' God, thanks to the free will he gave us? But in that case He would not know beforehand how we'd perform, right? It's all a bit confusing, but I suppose it's probably a mistake to try and apply logic on God.

Like brother Habeshi explained, it's a test for us (and we don't know the results), the test is not for Allaah.

Maybe I should take a step back. Why did God create humans in the first place? What is our purpose? Does the Qu'ran explain that? Maybe that sheds some light on this as well?

Thanks :).

Allaah says in His final revelation (translation of the meaning of):

And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me. [Qur'an 51: 56]

We as Muslims believe that this life is temporary, we are created by Allaah, and yes - we are created to worship Him. But wait, worship doesn't just mean to continuously pray, fast, etc. Worship in the Islamic context is anything which is loved by Allaah. So for example, if a guy gives food to his wife, he is fulfilling a duty which is loved by Allaah. Since you intended to draw closer to Allaah by feeding your wife, then that is an act of worship in of itself. Therefore, you would gain Allaah's pleasure, therefore be rewarded by Him inshaa Allaah (God willing.)

Similarly, all aspects of our life can be a means of drawing closer to our Creator, and Sustainer.


Along with these acts of worship, we are also obligated to thank Allaah for the good which He has bestowed upon us. We are obligated to worship Allaah (which includes the 5 daily prayers) - so that we remain firm upon the correct path. During each prayer, we recite to Allaah - "Guide us to the Straight Path.." - if one stops praying to Allaah, they usually break their contact with Him due to the excessive distractions of this life. Therefore an obligation makes the believer firm upon keeping their duty to Allaah so they remain upon the correct straight path which leads to Him (The Siraat Al Mustaqeem.)

Therefore, if one asks why Allaah asks us to worship Him - the answer is so we remain aware of God, so we continue doing good to please Him and earn His pleasure, so we abstain from the evil which He has forbidden us from - which is harm in of itself, and that is why it is forbidden.


Those who abstain from evil and do good to please God draw closer to Him, and due to that - there reward is with Him. Whereas those who do evil harm their own selves, while they percieve it not, and distance themselves away from Allaah, their Creator and Provider, and His reward. Yet still, Allaah is willing to forgive them if they repent to Him sincerely, however once death overtakes a person - then that is the end, and it is too late to turn back after that. Since this life is the test, and the Day of Judgement is the Day of Recompense, and the Paradise is for the believers and doers of good, and the Hellfire is the abode for those who disbelieve and are ungrateful to Allaah.



And Allaah knows best.





Peace.

[Malaikah]

If god loved me as much as my mom I would get a swift spanking not eternal torture.

If a person were to spend eternity in the Hell fire, then God certainly does not love them.

Islam is not like Christianity, we do not believe that God loves all human beings, regardless of how evil they might be.

[barney]

God is all powerful and all knowing.

He knows everything we are going to do, and everything he is going to do.

So no matter what we do, he's already aware of it. If we are going to hell, he's already aware of it. Nothing is going to change that, because then God would be wrong. if he's wrong he's not all knowing. if he cant change what we do, he's not all powerful.

Therefore life isnt a test according to the organised religions, its more of a movie for the director to watch....but he made it so he knows whats going to happen....kinda boring, but beats watching Big Brother 2007.

[Trumble]

Simple anthropomorphism. Were there actually an omnipotent, omniscient God, He would have no need for 'worshippers', or to be 'pleased'. Those are requirements of imperfect beings (i.e humans) not perfect ones.

The 'test' idea is even more implausible. Given the omnipotence/free will situation explained above the idea of 'hellfire' blows apart any idea of a 'merciful' God. Why would a supposedly benevolent God create beings that He knows, even before actually creating them, will end up in hell and watch them struggle through life only to end up there? It would, indeed, be divine 'Big Brother' and hence such a God cannot possibly exist.

If triangles believed in God then God would have three sides.

[Malaikah]

God has no need for anyone or anything to worship Him. Just because He is worthy of it, doesn't mean He needs it.

[- Qatada -]

I don't think you guys read the thread properly.


We clarified in the thread that the test is for US, as humans. We aren't aware of the future, and we have a freedom of choice. Will we take the good path, or the path of evil? It is our own choice. Yet Allaah is All Aware of what we do.


The concept of anthropomorphism isn't exactly how people put it, because Allaah's attributes are different to human attributes. So if Allaah is the All Seeing, we don't need to question 'how' He sees. But He does so in a way which befits His Majesty. We don't need to question the how's since our minds are limited to this world only.


Also something which we stated in the previous posts was that Allaah knows what would happen, even if it never happened. An example given is of the disbelievers, and how much regret they would have on the Day of Judgement. Yet if they were sent back to this world, they would reject the message once again.


So it's upto you guys, if you ask Allaah for guidance - He will guide you. If you don't want it, then you wait, we too are waiting. And Allaah will judge us on what we differ. The truthfull will benefit from their truth, and those who disbelieve will have nothing but regret, and they will be no turning back on that Day.




Peace.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

will we worship God or not... <--- this is the test in essence

translation of the ayyat:
And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me. [Qur'an 51: 56]


why has Allah placed this test on us you ask? i will be completely honest, after reading many many answers to this question and coming to many reasonable conclusions i still will say

"LA ADRI (I DONT KNOW)" because i really dont and i wont attempt to understand the vast wisdom behind Gods will. But i will submit because i know that whats revealed is indeed true...

i hope that makes sense... my point is basically if you find something to be true is it always necessary to question why? :?

[Umar001]

Simple anthropomorphism. Were there actually an omnipotent, omniscient God, He would have no need for 'worshippers', or to be 'pleased'. Those are requirements of imperfect beings (i.e humans) not perfect ones.

The 'test' idea is even more implausible. Given the omnipotence/free will situation explained above the idea of 'hellfire' blows apart any idea of a 'merciful' God. Why would a supposedly benevolent God create beings that He knows, even before actually creating them, will end up in hell and watch them struggle through life only to end up there? It would, indeed, be divine 'Big Brother' and hence such a God cannot possibly exist.

If triangles believed in God then God would have three sides.

That's exactly it though, if one does struggle then would he go hell? I don't think so. If one truly struggles I don't think he will go hell.

[Pygoscelis]

It would, indeed, be divine 'Big Brother' and hence such a God cannot possibly exist.

Unless of course God is not so nice and doesn't care so much about humans and we are just created for his amusement. Just as plausible.

[barney]

The alternetive hypothosis is everybody has got it all horribly wrong, there is no test there is no messages and we are constructing massively complicated social cohesion and coercion measures which, since we are all taught them at birth, are easier to follow than thinking for ourselves.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Unless of course God is not so nice and doesn't care so much about humans and we are just created for his amusement. Just as plausible.

or maybe God has a divine plan and for all those who do good and are patient he will reward them, and for those who do evil they will be rewarded in a different manner.

[DAWUD_adnan]

This one is easy, it is not for Allah to find out but to show us why we will be in either heaven or hell Allah knows He wrote it for us but it is for us to see why!

[barney]

or maybe God has a divine plan and for all those who do good and are patient he will reward them, and for those who do evil they will be rewarded in a different manner.

#
And mayby as part of his plan he kills several hundred's of thousands of Muslims in Tidal waves and Earthquakes. Indeed his ways are mysterious!

[Trumble]

Unless of course God is not so nice and doesn't care so much about humans and we are just created for his amusement. Just as plausible.

I don't think so, not when you consider the attributes which God would need to have. To something that could create galaxies at will, what could humans possibly do that would amuse? No, I think it's far more likely there simply is no such God other than as a human creation. Only as a human creation would such a being have the slightest interest in homo sapiens at all. To God we would evolve, live, and become extinct in the blink of an eye (or the nearest equivalent).

[IbnAbdulHakim]

#
And mayby as part of his plan he kills several hundred's of thousands of Muslims in Tidal waves and Earthquakes. Indeed his ways are mysterious!

you value life so much, yet this life is a mere trial, its not for enjoyment of pleasure. in those tidal waves good could have given many of those people comfort you have never felt and as we speak they could be lying in such peace in their graves.


really its all about believing in God to begin with, finding a religion, reading about its teachings, dont expect to understand God before taking these steps...

[wilberhum]

yet this life is a mere trial, its not for enjoyment of pleasure

What a sad way to live a life. Life should be hell, right?

[Muezzin]

Hey everyone,

I'm slowly starting to understand many of the ideas and arguments behind Islam and other religions. Yet, there is something that still baffles me about the Abrahamic religions.

If God is omnipotent and is our Creator, why do we need to be tested? I mean, if I would build a car and I would be 100&#37; sure my design would be perfect and the manufacturing process would be faultless, I wouldn't bother test driving it, right?

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm just wondering how the Abrahamic religions explain this. I'm guessing it has something to do with free will?

Thanks :).

KAding

I write fiction in my spare time. Good fiction requires good, strong characters. And the best way to illustrate their strength is to throw obstacles in their way. It's those victories over the many conflicts in the characters' lives which proves the characters' strength to (in the case of fiction) the readers, but more importantly to the characters themselves. That's kind of how I understand the concept (and my understanding as I have presented it here is not necessarily indicative of how the concept should be understood Islamically, rather it's an elaboration of my own gut instincts). Feel free to disagree, for it is healthy and builds character and understanding both.

The alternetive hypothosis is everybody has got it all horribly wrong, there is no test there is no messages and we are constructing massively complicated social cohesion and coercion measures which, since we are all taught them at birth, are easier to follow than thinking for ourselves.

Whatever floats your boat.

Life's a steeplechase, and I think we should all spend more time trying to reach the finishing line rather than fruitlessly debating who set up the course.

[Yanal]

Hey everyone,

I'm slowly starting to understand many of the ideas and arguments behind Islam and other religions. Yet, there is something that still baffles me about the Abrahamic religions.

If God is omnipotent and is our Creator, why do we need to be tested? I mean, if I would build a car and I would be 100% sure my design would be perfect and the manufacturing process would be faultless, I wouldn't bother test driving it, right?

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm just wondering how the Abrahamic religions explain this. I'm guessing it has something to do with free will?

Thanks :).
KAding

Sorry but that makes no sense if you won't test it how will you know you are not god that you will know and allah made a test because he just can't out everyone in heaven he has to test us beacause without your exams/report cards you won't be going to different grades so it is exactly like that because if he puts everyone in heaven he won't know if their is a kindness feeling towards god and if i am not mistaken allah does not create people he created the prophets(pbut)pbut=peace be upon them of course the prophets are going to heaven but allah wants to c how we do on the test

[- Qatada -]

Unless of course God is not so nice and doesn't care so much about humans and we are just created for his amusement. Just as plausible.

We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them for a (mere) play.

Had We intended to take a diversion, We could have taken it from [what is] with Us - if [indeed] We were to do so.

Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe.

To Him belongs whoever is in the heavens and the earth. And those near Him are not prevented by arrogance from His worship, nor do they tire.


[Qur'an 21: 16-19]

[Muslim Knight]

#
And mayby as part of his plan he kills several hundred's of thousands of Muslims in Tidal waves and Earthquakes. Indeed his ways are mysterious!

You know what, maybe He planned to spare the cruel life on earth and send them up to Paradise instead in an instant? What do you know of the mind of a God?

But then again, maybe you don't believe in afterlife. However, we Muslims do believe in Paradise in the Hereafter.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

What a sad way to live a life. Life should be hell, right?

Life being a trial doesnt mean its supposed to be like hell. I dont know where u got that idea from, besides from yourself. It is hell when you(generally speaking) act in a rude, cruel and repugnant manner to others. Not only are you hurting others but your hurting yourself. I find it useless to think i will live life unguided and die and jus rot in the ground with the worms. And since you and others like you believe nothing of about religion or that we have a soul and we'll be left behind like dirt.

I cant imagine not being rewarded for all the good I have ever done for someone. To die with all my good deeds and then never have an everlasting reward for all the great I have tried to achieve wilst being alive. There are some things we as humans do that are good that go unseen. And if another human can't see it, at least God will reward me. Boasting and too much pride isnt exactly a plus point either. It's actually a bit egotistical. If you do good, it should be with humbleness. And the remembrance of Allah(swt) for us reminds to behave in such a manner because we are no greater or less than another human. I dont want a temporary reward for doing good from another human who will die like me and make mistakes like me. I definitely cant imagine coming into existance from a speck of particles! And obviously even that speck or process needs a beginning no? You cant have a process unless someone is the one starting it! And in my opinion, that is God(swt).

Just my two cents :D

[Pygoscelis]

You know what, maybe He planned to spare the cruel life on earth and send them up to Paradise instead in an instant? What do you know of the mind of a God?

But then again, maybe you don't believe in afterlife. However, we Muslims do believe in Paradise in the Hereafter.

So its a good thing for people to get killed, because it spares them time on this horrible earth and takes them to the next life? Scary line of thought that is.

[Trumble]

You know what, maybe He planned to spare the cruel life on earth and send them up to Paradise instead in an instant?

First question. If life on earth can be 'cruel' (which it undoubtably can) why would an omnipotent and benevolent God create it that way?

Second question: If He plans to spare such people from the cruel life on earth for which He alone is directly responsible, then why not by-pass earth all together and just have them pop up in Paradise?

Third question: As God is omniscient he must know who goes to hell and who goes to Paradise before they are even created. So why bother with the whole earth thing at all? Why not just send folks straight to where they are going to end up? Surely that would have a major plus in that, as those going hell will not actually commit the wrongs they must inevitably be judged on, which seems more than a tad unfair, a benevolent God could use the opportunity to show some benevolence and not create them in the first place, and hence not create hell in the first place, it being unnecessary.

Fourth question. Why, therefore, would a benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God not just create Paradise and populate it directly with nice people? Why bother with the rest at all? The only logically coherent possibility I can see is divine 'entertainment' which is not only ludicrous for the reasons I have described earlier but which Qatata has kindly shown is ruled out by the Qur'an.

[- Qatada -]

First question. If life on earth can be 'cruel' (which it undoubtably can) why would an omnipotent and benevolent God create it that way?

The life in this world is a trial, the hardships people face in this life can either 1) Draw them closer to Allaah so they realise their weakness and dependance upon Allaah. or 2) They will turn away and become more arrogant while remaining in a state of weakness.

The trials one faces in life can make them become more patient, more stronger, and a greater person in Allaah's sight. Or they can make the person even more ungrateful, rebellious against Allaah, and this person may despair of Allaah's Mercy, and none does this except the disbelievers.


Allaah says (translation of the meaning):

Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?

We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false.

Do those who practise evil think that they will get the better of Us? Evil is their judgment!

For those whose hopes are in the meeting with Allah (in the Hereafter, let them strive); for the term (appointed) by Allah is surely coming and He hears and knows (all things).

And if any strive (with might and main), they do so for their own souls: for Allah is free of all needs from all creation.

Those who believe and work righteous deeds,- from them shall We blot out all evil (that may be) in them, and We shall reward them according to the best of their deeds.


[Qur'an 29: 2-7]

[- Qatada -]

Second question: If He plans to spare such people from the cruel life on earth for which He alone is directly responsible, then why not by-pass earth all together and just have them pop up in Paradise?

As we've explained earlier in the thread (tut tut, you should have been paying attention) - if people were placed into the hellfire or paradise without experiencing this life and their own deeds, then man would feel as if this is injustice. Yet if man is witness to his/her own actions and choices, then they have no-one except themselves to blame.

Third question: As God is omniscient he must know who goes to hell and who goes to Paradise before they are even created. So why bother with the whole earth thing at all? Why not just send folks straight to where they are going to end up?

Explained above.

Surely that would have a major plus in that, as those going hell will not actually commit the wrongs they must inevitably be judged on, which seems more than a tad unfair, a benevolent God could use the opportunity to show some benevolence and not create them in the first place, and hence not create hell in the first place, it being unnecessary.

This again, comes back to the concept of this life and it being a test.


Since people have freedom of choice, then those who do choose the good path over the evil, then they will be rewarded for that, and those who do evil - what other reward should they be for them except a recompense for their own evils?


Allaah says in the Qur'an (translation of the meaning):

Is there any Reward for Good - other than Good?

[Qur'an 55: 60]

And He also says (translation of the meaning):

Shall We then treat the (submitting) Muslims like the Mujrimun (criminals, polytheists and disbelievers, etc.)?

What is [the matter] with you? How do you judge?


[Qur'an 68: 35-6]

Fourth question. Why, therefore, would a benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God not just create Paradise and populate it directly with nice people? Why bother with the rest at all? The only logically coherent possibility I can see is divine 'entertainment' which is not only ludicrous for the reasons I have described earlier but which Qatata has kindly shown is ruled out by the Qur'an.

As stated before, the test is for us - not Allaah. We do not know what Allaah knows, therefore we strive to be the people of Paradise. And we avoid evil so we do not become the people of the Fire. We have this freedom of choice to do good or evil, yet if we believe in Allaah and His promise, and do good - then why shouldn't we be rewarded for it by Him?

Why should All&#226;h punish you if you have thanked (Him) and have believed in Him. And All&#226;h is Ever All*Appreciative (of good), All*Knowing.

[Qur'an 4: 147]

[- Qatada -]

So its a good thing for people to get killed, because it spares them time on this horrible earth and takes them to the next life? Scary line of thought that is.

Allaah has appointed death for us all at a certain time period, we can't avoid that by an instant.

And it is not [possible] for one to die except by permission of Allah at a decree determined. And whoever desires the reward of this world - We will give him thereof; and whoever desires the reward of the Hereafter - We will give him thereof. And we will reward the grateful.

(Qur'an 3:145)

People die in different ways, some people may face a calamity before their death. This may be a form of forgiveness for them, since the trials we face in this life can be either for us or against us. This depends on the person, if they remain patient and place their trust in Allaah - they gain Allaah's pleasure, because the person is aware that Allaah is the Wise, All Knowing.

We as simple humans are limited to the present only, therefore we place our trust in Allaah, knowing the wisdom behind the situations we face in life, and the ease which Allaah brings through it.

So, verily, with every difficulty, there is relief:

Verily, with every difficulty there is relief.

[Qur'an 94: 5-6]

Therefore when someone dies in a disaster, then it may have been a punishment from Allaah. Or it may have been a wake up call for other people throughout the world to realise how weak and helpless they are. And that this disaster isn't just by nature, but rather by the wisdom of the All Knowing, All Wise.


So even if muslims are punished for their sins, it may be that this is an expiation for their sins in regard to the afterlife. Or it may also be a wake up call for others who have never really thought about death as often.


For instance, the trials we as muslims are facing in this world are huge. And the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) spoke the truth when he said (translation of the meaning):


“This community of mine is a community blessed with mercy. It is not punished in the Hereafter. Instead, it is punished in this world with strife, instability, and bloodshed.” [Musnad Ahmad, Sunan Abî Dâwûd, and Mustadrak al-Hâkim] It is an authentic hadîth. It indicates that Allah has shown mercy on the Islamic community and that its punishment will be in this world instead of the Hereafter.



It may be that those who disbelieve don't face as much trials in this life, yet their punishment may be in the hereafter for their wrongdoings and ungratefulness.


And for the believer, no matter how much hardships or moments of ease he /she faces in life, it is always a form of goodness for them;


The Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

How wonderful is the situation of the believer, for all his affairs are good. If something good happens to him, he gives thanks for it and that is good for him; if something bad happens to him, he bears it with patience, and that is good for him. This does not apply to anyone but the believer.” Narrated by Muslim (2999).

And he also (peace be upon him) said (translation of the meaning):

No fatigue, nor disease, nor anxiety, nor sadness, nor hurt, nor distress befalls a Muslim, even if it were the prick he receives from a thorn, but that Allah expiates some of his sins for that” (Al-Bukhari and Muslim).

And Allaah is the source of strength.




Peace.

[Trumble]

if people were placed into the hellfire or paradise without experiencing this life and their own deeds, then man would feel as if this is injustice. Yet if man is witness to his/her own actions and choices, then they have no-one except themselves to blame.

I think we can safely assume that anyone placed in Paradise is unlikely to be unduly worried about any injustice, so them we can safely ignore.

Let me try again. That just leaves us with those doomed to hellfire, yes? I take it that you would not dispute that an omniscient God must be aware of who those people will be before they are even born? To me the idea of free-will is completely incompatible with that set-up, but I'll accept that the case is open - far wiser people than us have been debating it for centuries and still reached no satisfactory conclusion. However, illusion of free-will or not, your argument leads to only one possible conclusion; that the sole purpose of man's life on earth is so that those who end up in hell will know why they are there. I don't know about you, but that's the sort of world-view that would drive me to the valium.

Allaah has appointed death for us all at a certain time period, we can't avoid that by an instant.

So much for free will.....

[- Qatada -]

I think we can safely assume that anyone placed in Paradise is unlikely to be unduly worried about any injustice, so them we can safely ignore.

Okay.

Let me try again. That just leaves us with those doomed to hellfire, yes? I take it that you would not dispute that an omniscient God must be aware of who those people will be before they are even born? To me the idea of free-will is completely incompatible with that set-up, but I'll accept that the case is open - far wiser people than us have been debating it for centuries and still reached no satisfactory conclusion. However, illusion of free-will or not, your argument leads to only one possible conclusion; that the sole purpose of man's life on earth is so that those who end up in hell will know why they are there. I don't know about you, but that's the sort of world-view that would drive me to the valium.

That's twisting up the facts, Allaah knows what we do, and He would know what we do even if we never did it.

Allaah has allowed us to have the freedom of choice, and He has promised to guide us if we are truth seekers and sincere.


Allaah says:

“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).

A Scandinavian man prayed to God; "God, guide me if you exist" - And Allaah kept His promise by guiding him to Islaam.

So even if this brother wasn't sure of whether God existed, he still went ahead with the prayer, so Allaah did guide him since he was sincere and willing to find the truth.

From time to time I would retreat to my room sitting there quietly in a cross-legged position, praying and seeking His guidance. I was afraid of asking anybody for guidance because I knew that the world is full of crooks and conmen who could easily take me for a ride, green as I knew that I was. Therefore I just kept asking God. I would talk to God and say, "If You are there, You can hear me. If You are there, You can see me. If You are there, You know my needs. I am blind, deaf, and dumb and I don't know what is good for me, and what is not. Give me a way. Open a door for me. Give me guidance!" To my friends I would often speak about God and the eternal principle of God.

More info:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...you-exist.html



If someone isn't sincere, and they purposely turn away from Allaah's signs. Then this person has chosen a path of disbelief purposelly over belief, since this person never knew whether he/she would be a person of Paradise or Hellfire. The opportunities were open for him/her - did they take advantage of them? Or did they just sulk like a child and say that it's over already? How do they know what's lying ahead for them? So why should they argue over something which - if they were to be sincere and truthful, would lead them towards Allaah's Mercy and Paradise?

So much for free will.....

Nowhere have i ever said we have free will, i stated we have freedom of choice. Yet death is a factor which none of us can avoid.




Peace.

[Trumble]

That's twisting up the facts, Allaah knows what we do, and He would know what we do even if we never did it.

It's not twisting up anything, I think it is the only logical consequence of what you have claimed. If you think differently, feel free to produce an alternative. No offence, but "He would know what we do even if we never did it" simply doesn't make sense.

Nowhere have i ever said we have free will, i stated we have freedom of choice.

Could you clearly set out what you believe to be the difference, please? How can we have freedom of choice without free will?

[- Qatada -]

It's not twisting up anything, I think it is the only logical consequence of what you have claimed. If you think differently, feel free to produce an alternative. No offence, but "He would know what we do even if we never did it" simply doesn't make sense.

I've explained the issue in the above post. If you want to be guided, ask God to guide you (if you're in doubt, then ask Him "Guide me to the truth if You exist"), and He will do so if you are sincere and truthful.

Could you clearly set out what you believe to be the difference, please? How can we have freedom of choice without free will?

Freedom of choice means that we have the choice of doing good, or doing evil. Yet it doesn't necessarily mean we have control over all the situations which occur in our life i.e. what family we are born into etc.




Regards.

[Trumble]

Yet it doesn't necessarily mean we have control over all the situations which occur in our life i.e. what family we are born into etc.

Neither does free will.

[- Qatada -]

Alright then, kool. :)

[MustafaMc]

We Muslims believe that Allah created mankind to worship Him of their own accord - to choose to worship Him in the manner that He wishes for them to. Allah's reasoning is beyond our understanding. We believe that Allah created us and He has promised to reward those who believe in Him and do good works and He has promised to punish those who disbelieve in Him, ascribe partners to Him and those believers whose bad deeds outweigh their good deeds.

All of life is a test for us - the good of it and the bad of it. It is easy to see how suffering from a calamity such as an earthquake, a tsunami, a hurricane/cyclone, flood, drought, etc is a test of our patience and perserverance to believe in Allah despite the bad that happens. What about the good that happens such as having a good job and earning money beyond what one needs, having food to eat and never having to worry about the next meal. Are we thankful or not? Do we help those less fortunate or not?

... and Allah knows best.