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00:00
06-26-2007, 01:59 AM
Vander Hoven, a psychologist from Netherlands, announced his new discovery about the effect of reading the Qur'an and repeating the word ALLAH both on patients and on normal persons. The Dutch professor confirms his discovery with studies and research applied on many patients over a period of three years. Some of his patients were non-Muslims, others do not speak Arabic and were trained to pronounce the word "ALLAH" clearly; the result was great, particularly on those would suffer from dejection and tension.'Al Watan,' a Saudi daily reported that the psychologist was quoted to say that Muslims who can read Arabic and who read the Qur'an regularly can protect themselves from psychological diseases. The psychologist explained how each letter in the word "ALLAH" affects healing of psychological diseases. He pointed out in his research that pronouncing the first letter in the word "ALLAH" which is the letter (A), released from the respiratory system, Controls breathing. He added that pronouncing the velar consonant (L) in the Arabic way, with the tongue touching slightly the upper part of the jaw producing a short pause and then repeating the same pause constantly, relaxes the aspiration. Also, pronouncing the last letter which is the letter (H) makes a contact between the lungs and the heart and in turn this contact controls the heart beat.

What is exciting in the study is that this psychologist is a non-Muslim, but interested in Islamic sciences and searching for the secrets of the Holy Qur'an. Allah Ta'alah says,

" We will show them Our signs in the universe and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth ." (Holy Qur'an 42:53)

[Translated from the Qatari "Arraya" Daily Sunday, 24 March, 2002]
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Abdul-Raouf
06-26-2007, 02:04 AM
I think this one is already posted...

Jazakallah khair...
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lyesh
06-26-2007, 02:15 AM
:sl:

SUBHANALLAH!!!! wow!!!

jazakAllah khair fo sharing! :D
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ranma1/2
06-26-2007, 06:50 AM
sounds like a combination of placebo and positive thinking at best.
The best can be said is that controlled breathing exercise canbe healthy. And you can make any word you want using those techniques.

I wonder what it would have been like for concervative christians or jews?
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Marina
06-30-2007, 12:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 00:00
pronouncing the last letter which is the letter (H) makes a contact between the lungs and the heart and in turn this contact controls the heart beat.
Subhan Allah..
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'Abd al-Baari
06-30-2007, 12:51 PM
:sl:

Subhanallah that is soo cool
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afriend
06-30-2007, 12:54 PM
:sl:

SubhanAllah...

a Saudi daily reported that the psychologist was quoted to say that Muslims who can read Arabic and who read the Qur'an regularly can protect themselves from psychological diseases.
It's true, I'm not just saying it because I'm a Muslim, seriously, listenning to the Quran has helped me through so many troubled times. Surah Ta-Ha in particular...Amazing.

:w:
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Karina
07-01-2007, 01:03 PM
* In which publication was this discovery "announced"?

* Where did the "research" take place?

* What is a "psychological disease"?

* Who is this Dutch professor? I can find no evidence of his existance.


I'm sorry - I usually like to be presented with a little more evidence before I am taken in by claims like this. C'mon why isn't everyone a little more cynical about things like this..........

Well, it's obvious a lot of people will believe anything won't they.

Very Scary. :skeleton:
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Yanal
07-01-2007, 01:05 PM
subhanallah and ps hey 46th post 4 more to go
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czgibson
07-01-2007, 02:49 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Karina
Well, it's obvious a lot of people will believe anything won't they.
Yep - especially if it confirms their prior beliefs.

It's a real shame that so many Muslims will only acknowledge the benefits of science when its findings appear to support Islam. That's a certain path to intellectual stagnation.

Peace
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Karina
07-01-2007, 02:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Yep - especially if it confirms their prior beliefs.

It's a real shame that so many Muslims will only acknowledge the benefits of science when its findings appear to support Islam. That's a certain path to intellectual stagnation.

Peace

I just can't understand why people will read stuff like this and accept it straight away.

It makes you wonder how many people will be well aware of this and take full advantage of this naive attitude.

It's really really frightening. :skeleton:

So let me ask you all..... why did you believe this dubious information without question? :?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-01-2007, 04:23 PM
^^Hmm I wonder where I have heard this before "repeatedly." Oh wait.. HERE. from guys like you. Speak for yourself thanks :) You guys cant act like you havent done stuff like this, so pleasee drop it. And yes it does help, how do i know...well cuz it personally helps me :)
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vpb
07-01-2007, 04:35 PM
* In which publication was this discovery "announced"?

* Where did the "research" take place?

* What is a "psychological disease"?

* Who is this Dutch professor? I can find no evidence of his existance.


I'm sorry - I usually like to be presented with a little more evidence before I am taken in by claims like this. C'mon why isn't everyone a little more cynical about things like this..........

Well, it's obvious a lot of people will believe anything won't they.

Very Scary.

I don't know about the scientists above, but I know for a scientist called "Ali Iljazi", he is a Prime (higher than Phd), and he also invented a machine for testing bronchioles, and he explained the effect of saying the word Allah , which has to do with diafragm.

and he explaned in this video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0
it is at minute of 3:23 , but unfortunately it is not in English.

but as for the scientist above , I don't know.
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vpb
07-01-2007, 04:36 PM
I will try to translate that part of video inshaallah.
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Karina
07-01-2007, 04:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
^^Hmm I wonder where I have heard this before "repeatedly." Oh wait.. HERE. from guys like you. Speak for yourself thanks :) You guys cant act like you havent done stuff like this, so pleasee drop it. And yes it does help, how do i know...well cuz it personally helps me :)
Jazzy I am not saying that certain words or actions cannot have a positive effect, I am just eternally sceptical about what appear to be false claims.

Now it may seem harmless. But my point is that people are quick to believe things like this without really thinking about it properly. And I personally feel that this naivity can be utilised dangerously by certain people.

Me? I think that certain words can provide immense comfort and can no doubt bring on wonderfully positive thoughts and emotions.

All I ask is that people proceed with care when absorbing the claims made in posts like the one made by 00:00. I seem to remember one a while back claiming the devestating effects of Dihydrogen monoxide which seemed to create a sense of shock & panic on this Forum until I uncovered the fact that it was indeed a prank and Dihydrogen monoxide was WATER.

http://www.islamicboard.com/educatio...chemistry.html
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vpb
07-01-2007, 04:44 PM
Now it may seem harmless. But my point is that people are quick to believe things like this without really thinking about it properly. And I personally feel that this naivity can be utilised dangerously by certain people.
Yes , I agree, bc we are not supposed to believe things which are not proven, even if they speak pro-Islam. But bc of the love for Islam, people tend to believe quickly without proving if it is true.

But as for the scientific effects of saying Allah, is true. I will translate the part of the video inshaAllah, of the explanation of what happens to the body when sayin the word Allah.
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جوري
07-01-2007, 05:39 PM
Here we have a "linguist"a teacher of some sort?-- and, I am not sure what the other lady does for a living?-- no matter, I am certainly baffled, at their input as to how spiritual growth halts scientific progress?.. further, I am amused by the so-called scientific insight of these non-scientists on research they have absolutely no knowledge of...
I'll dismiss the thread as a hoax of some sort meant to feed eager, naive minds, yet here I present an article from numerous articles of the benefits of prayer and spirituality, coming out of well respected institutions! What say you about this as well?..

Being a scientist doesn't preclude one from growing spiritually or believing in things outside the scope of science, in fact I find an adjuvant effect marrying the two, and in fact this has enabled many to grow in ways that are possibly beyond your linear conceptions of the world, that is in fact how some become pioneers in their fields while others take their research, strip it of any humanity and present it as proof somehow that to believe in G-D has no room in a progressing world!
How amusing on so many level... further, why would anyone who doesn't believe in G-D, spend so much time thinking about him? seems like a useless way to spend ones life, especially that, if that is all you have, it is much too short to spend it on a forum, Islamic or otherwise!
whatever rocks your boat; However your opinion isn't any more balanced or progressive, than those who subscribe to a belief!


here is one from Duke university

Prayer, Noetic Studies Feasible; Results Indicate Benefit to Heart Patients






keywords : Cardiology, spirituality
date : 10/31/2001
media contact : Tracey Koepke , (919) 684-4148 or (919) 660-1301
koepk002@mc.duke.edu




DURHAM, N.C. - Cardiac patients who received intercessory prayer in addition to coronary stenting appeared to have better clinical outcomes than those treated with standard stenting therapy alone, according to researchers at Duke University Medical Center.

Their results further suggest that using rigorous scientific methods to study the therapeutic value of prayer and other noetic interventions appears feasible and warrants larger-scale, more definitive investigations. Noetic interventions are defined as "a healing influence performed without the use of a drug, device or surgical procedure," said the researchers.

Results of the phase I feasibility-pilot, known as the MANTRA (Monitoring and Actualization of Noetic TRAinings) Project, appear in the Nov. 1 issue of the American Heart Journal.

"We now know that clinically meaningful, high-quality research can be done in this area," said Duke cardiologist Dr. Mitch Krucoff, who co-directs the study with Suzanne Crater, a Duke nurse practitioner. "The data are suggestive that there may be a measurable therapeutic benefit related to noetic therapies in patients undergoing angioplasty."

Patients who received noetic therapies showed a 25 to 30 percent reduction in adverse outcomes (such as death, heart failure, post-procedural ischemia, repeat angioplasty or heart attack) than those without such therapies, according to the researchers. While increasingly popular outside of mainstream medicine, noetic therapies have not been widely studied with rigorous, scientific research methods. This study represents one of the first such efforts.

"We know patients are very interested in these types of treatments, particularly in the role spirituality and prayer play in their health and health care," added Krucoff. "To best understand how to respond to such widespread interest, we examined whether good, mainstream, fundamental research science could be applied to these areas."

One hundred and fifty patients with acute coronary insufficiency at the Durham Veterans Affairs Medical Center were enrolled in the prospective, randomized study from April 1997 to April 1998. All were scheduled for invasive cardiac procedures based on their clinical needs. In a five-way randomization, all patients were assigned (in equal distribution) to coronary stenting with standard care or to coronary stenting plus one of the following therapies: guided imagery, stress relaxation, healing touch or intercessory prayer. Of the 120 patients assigned noetic interventions, 118 (98 percent) completed the therapeutic assignment.

Differences in clinical outcomes between treatment groups were not statistically significant. However, those receiving noetic treatments "had lower absolute complication rates and a lower absolute incidence of post-procedural ischemia during hospitalization," said Crater.

"These noetic interventions help a patient achieve a state of calm equilibrium, or homeostasis, which puts them in a better state to help in their own recovery process," said Jon Seskevich, a Duke nurse clinician, who along with Crater, designed the non-prayer interventional therapies. He further noted that those assigned to receive prayer appeared to fare even better than those receiving the other types of noetic treatments and the control group.

To be eligible for enrollment, patients had to be experiencing chest pain at rest (with or without acute electrocardiographic changes) and be scheduled for invasive diagnostic angiography. All patients were managed in the coronary care unit of the hospital before and after angioplasty.

Off-site, intercessory prayer was provided by seven prayer groups of varying denominations around the world. The groups included Buddhists, Catholics, Moravians, Jews, Fundamentalist Christians, Baptists and the Unity School of Christianity.

"The name, age and illness of each patient assigned to prayer therapy was sent to each prayer group," Crater said. "These patients had prayers from all over the world said on their behalf for healing and recovery."

Denomination did not play a factor in the design of the study. Prayer and standard therapy assignments remained double-blinded to patients, family and staff. A trained volunteer performed the other noetic therapies at bedside within one hour of the cardiac procedure.

Although small, the researchers believe the study is an important advance in this area of medical research.

"This is an important study because it provides preliminary information suggestive of a positive effect that needs further study in a larger study sample," said Dr. Harold G. Koenig, associate professor of psychiatry at Duke University Medical Center, and one of the study authors. "Some of the greatest scientific achievements have come from those who step outside of the box, and I believe that is what this study does. The results tend to lean toward prayer helping people, but more study is needed."

Research is continuing. Phase II of the MANTRA project has already enrolled nearly 500 patients out of an enrollment target of 1,500 patients. The larger study is underway at nine sites throughout the U.S., including Duke University Medical Center, Columbia-Presbyterian Hospital in New York City, Washington Heart Center in Washington, Abbott Northwestern Hospital in Minneapolis, Scripps Clinic/Scripps Mercy Hospitals in San Diego, Geisinger Clinic in Danville, Pa., Florida Cardiovascular Center in Atlantis, Fla., and the Durham VAMC.

Preliminary data from this pilot study were previously reported at the 71st meeting of the American Heart Association in 1998. The American Heart Journal article represents the complete, tabulated, peer-reviewed results of the phase I study. Funding was provided in part by grants from G.E.-Marquette Electronics, Milwaukee; the Institute of Noetic Sciences, Sausalito, Calif.; the Bakken Family Foundation (Hawaii); the Heart Center, Duke University Medical Center; and the Duke Clinical Research Institute.

Other authors of the study include: Cindy L. Green, Ph.D., Arthur C. Maas, MD, James D. Lane, Ph.D., Karen A. Loeffler, Kenneth Morris, MD, and Thomas M. Bashore, MD.
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Karina
07-01-2007, 06:06 PM
How amusing on so many level... further, why would anyone who doesn't believe in G-D, spend so much time thinking about him? seems like a useless way to spend ones life, especially that, if that is all you have, it is much too short to spend it on a forum, Islamic or otherwise!
whatever rocks your boat; However your opinion isn't any more balanced or progressive, than those who subscribe to a belief!
How amusing that you have taken the time and effort to become so defensive over what to most people is common sense.

All I am highlighting is the lack of hesitation when it comes to accepting something that we have heard or read.

I say this not just to one particular group or individual, but to everyone. You should know me by now. Take the media for example. We are all guilty of believing what we read or see on tv - all of us.

What is my crime in doing that????
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Karina
07-01-2007, 06:11 PM
And Purest Ambrosia, please could you provide me with a link of further info on this "Dutch Psychologist"??

:)
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جوري
07-01-2007, 06:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karina
How amusing that you have taken the time and effort to become so defensive over what to most people is common sense.
Defensive? Hardly-- I am cross examining, the same as you were doing questioning the quality of the original poster!

All I am highlighting is the lack of hesitation when it comes to accepting something that we have heard or read.
and by all means no one is asking you to accept this-- however extensive research is done by respected scientists, and posted in scientific journals. I am also quite certain that there are scientists who are skeptical of the study itself, even if the institution that provided this one is a heavy weight contender!...

people bring their own prejudices and biases into research it is called (observer bias) if you have taken a basic medical statistics course, you'd learn what things you need to look for when judging a study, i.e. (P) value, relative risk (RR) assessment, the type of study run (most would agree that double blind, random is the best as is the case with article (I provided) by no means should be an indication that you should go assume a religious affiliation with a particular denomination, But you shouldn't be in such a hurry to be a skeptic either, when frankly, you have no knowledge of the subject at hand!

I say this not just to one particular group or individual, but to everyone. You should know me by now. Take the media for example. We are all guilty of believing what we read or see on tv - all of us.
I don't know you at all, this is the second post I have read by your person!

What is my crime in doing that????
What is the crime of the original poster?

peace!
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جوري
07-01-2007, 06:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karina
And Purest Ambrosia, please could you provide me with a link of further info on this "Dutch Psychologist"??

:)
That is a request you should direct to the one who presented the original article, not my person, on my behalf, I have already included one study from Duke, the article can be found in full in the American Heart Journal. 142(5):760-769, November 2001. issue entitled
Integrative noetic therapies as adjuncts to percutaneous intervention during unstable coronary syndromes: Monitoring and Actualization of Noetic Training (MANTRA) feasibility pilot.

Clinical Investigations

American Heart Journal. 142(5):760-769, November 2001.
Krucoff, Mitchell W. MD; Crater, Suzanne W. RN, ANP-C; Green, Cindy L. PhD; Maas, Arthur C. MD; Seskevich, Jon E. RN; Lane, James D. PhD; Loeffler, Karen A.; Morris, Kenneth MD; Bashore, Thomas M. MD; Koenig, Harold G. MD
peace!
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Karina
07-01-2007, 06:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Defensive? Hardly-- I am cross examining, the same as you were doing questioning the quality of the original poster!



and by all means no one is asking you to accept this-- however extensive research is done by respected scientists, and posted in scientific journals. I am also quite certain that there are scientists who are skeptical of the study itself, even if the institution that provided this one is a heavy weight contender!...

people bring their own prejudices and biases into research it is called (observer bias) if you have taken a basic medical statistics course, you'd learn what things you need to look for when judging a study, i.e. (P) value, relative risk (RR) assessment, the type of study run (most would agree that double blind, random is the best as is the case with article (I provided) by no means should be an indication that you should go assume a religious affiliation with a particular denomination, But you shouldn't be in such a hurry to be a skeptic either, when frankly, you have no knowledge of the subject at hand!


I don't know you at all, this is the second post I have read by your person!



What is the crime of the original poster?

peace!
Peace to you too! Seriously!

PS I don't know you at all either (I didn't intend to direct that comment solely at you) but may I now jump to an unreasonable conclusion and suggest that your manner indicates you have rather a large chip on your shoulder about something!
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Karina
07-01-2007, 06:36 PM
And I have also already fully acknowledged the positive physical and psychological effects of repeating certain words and actions - I am a hearty believer in it myself but that is not my point as you well know.....

:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Karina
07-01-2007, 06:49 PM
FOR CLARIFICATION...

My whole point revolves around the fact that sometimes, people feel that they can post items within this forum, that make no reference to the source of the information, or to any supporting evidence.

Other individuals immediately take this information as fact - without question.

I have the personal view that this is how we are completely manipulated as a whole. By individuals, yes. By the Media - YES.

All I ask is that you take one moment to think about what you're reading. That's all.
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جوري
07-01-2007, 07:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karina
Peace to you too! Seriously!

PS I don't know you at all either (I didn't intend to direct that comment solely at you)
I know since I didn't partake in this thread earlier for your comments to be directed at me!...

but may I now jump to an unreasonable conclusion and suggest that your manner indicates you have rather a large chip on your shoulder about something!
Indeed, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today-- and was thoroughly aggravated by another member, which might have augmented my reaction to this, however, it doesn't change the fact, that I find most non-Muslims on board relishing the moment or any opportunity to tarnish anything to do with Islam, or question the spirituality religion or even psychology of why others believe what they do...

Everyone holds a belief system even atheists, albeit a substitution to what to them seems like an archaic approach to the universe around them-- It doesn't make it "correct" or scientific-- it is what it is a substitution-- however that is a topic for another day...
FOR CLARIFICATION...

My whole point revolves around the fact that sometimes, people feel that they can post items within this forum, that make no reference to the source of the information, or to any supporting evidence.

Other individuals immediately take this information as fact - without question.

I have the personal view that this is how we are completely manipulated as a whole. By individuals, yes. By the Media - YES.

All I ask is that you take one moment to think about what you're reading. That's all.
Indeed-- however I don't think you understand what a great insult there is in that?-- you can't assume to know what other people are thinking, believing or feeling-- whether or not they exercise critical thinking... you ( not you alone) make this sweeping generalization, and it is very presumptive on your behalf. .. it is equivalent to living in a bubble ( you can't be Muslim and a scientist) -- [(You can't be Muslim and understand clinical research) -- (you can't be Muslim and a critical thinker) ( you can't be Muslim and an abstract thinker)] that is basically what I understand from these comments some of you make... Muslims are people too, we didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, and we are certainly not the country oafs many take us to be or wish us to be!

on this note I end-- This has taken as usual an exceptionally large chunk of my afternoon, and I just simply don't have the time for this!...

peace!
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Karina
07-01-2007, 07:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I know since I didn't partake in this thread earlier for your comments to be directed at me!...



Indeed, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today-- and was thoroughly aggravated by another member, which might have augmented my reaction to this, however, it doesn't change the fact, that I find most non-Muslims on board relishing the moment or any opportunity to tarnish anything to do with Islam, or question the spirituality religion or even psychology of why others believe what they do...

Everyone holds a belief system even atheists, albeit a substitution to what to them seems like an archaic approach to the universe around them-- It doesn't make it "correct" or scientific-- it is what it is a substitution-- however that is a topic for another day...

peace!

Indeed-- however I don't think you understand what a great insult there is in that?-- you can't assume to know what other people are thinking, believing or feeling-- whether or not they exercise critical thinking... you ( not you alone) make this sweeping generalization, and it is very presumptive on your behalf. .. it is equivalent to living in a bubble ( you can't be Muslim and a scientist) -- [(You can't be Muslim and understand clinical research) -- (you can't be Muslim and a critical thinker) ( you can't be Muslim and an abstract thinker)] that is basically what I understand from much of these comments... Muslims are people to, we didn't fall off the turnips truck yesterday, and we are certainly not the country oafs many take us to be!

on this note I end-- This has taken as usual an exceptionally large chunk of my afternoon as usual, and I just simply don't have the time for this!...

peace!

Well why bother... if responding to my "insulting" posts wastes so much of your precious time? And how dare you assume what I am implying? Because that's what you are doing - making assumptions (and you have only read two of my posts!!)

And why do you take my comments as insults to Muslims? Is anyone else offended - please do speak up??

Personally I am somewhat offended, no - saddened, by your almost confrontational approach to my views.

PEACE.
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جوري
07-01-2007, 07:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karina
Well why bother
I usually write for the sake of the Muslims on board-- I don't have you "Karina" in mind!

... if responding to my "insulting" posts wastes so much of your precious time? And how dare you assume what I am implying? Because that's what you are doing - making assumptions (and you have only read two of my posts!!)
I think what you and your fellow here are implying is clearly visible to the naked eye, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to decode!


And why do you take my comments as insults to Muslims? Is anyone else offended - please do speak up??
I am a Muslim and I am offended by the undertones of your posts, not yours alone for that matter... Seems rather jejune to run to others for validation? --eh so be it!

Personally I am somewhat offended, no - saddened, by your almost confrontational approach to my views.

PEACE.
like wise!

peace!
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SUMMAYAH
07-01-2007, 07:28 PM
subhanallah
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Karina
07-01-2007, 07:28 PM
Undertones?

Hmm. If my personal profile had the "Sister" symbol right there, no reference to me being "Agnostic" and I was making the same valid point..... please do re-assure me that your (over)reaction would have been the same?

Honestly?
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saira-k
07-01-2007, 07:35 PM
wow subhanAllah
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جوري
07-01-2007, 07:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karina
Undertones?

Hmm. If my personal profile had the "Sister" symbol right there, no reference to me being "Agnostic" and I was making the same valid point..... please do re-assure me that your (over)reaction would have been the same?

Honestly?
I don't dabble in hypotheticals-- Many threads I don't agree with here, I maintain my silence, especially if I have no prior knowledge of the subject matter... if it intrigues me then I do a little research before jumping to conclusions! and that is my honest answer...
plus, prior I have stated, my replies aren't directed toward you alone but to the gent. that states such a topic or research is and I quote, an "intellectual stagnation"... I didn't see his subscription ID to the illuminati club ....
I can't dismiss nor validate the original post!.. however there is research done to denote that there is indeed a positive outcome as a result of prayer, which I did include with a source! if he or you find that sort of thing intellectually and scientifically stultifying, there is loads of other forums where you can discuss the pseudo-science of the Muslim community and have yourself a hearty ole laugh, it is inconsequential to me what either of your persons believe, but you don't have a say in what others wish to subscribe to as a belief!

peace!
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Karina
07-01-2007, 08:05 PM
I am astounded by your over-reaction!

I have never once doubted the positive effect of certain words or actions - yes - prayer. I have already said it at least twice, maybe three times - would you like me to say it again?

I find it intriguing that you persist to twist my comments (to make me look biggoted? Or am I making hasty assumptions?) - I'm not sure what your intention is, although you're making a really good job of making yourself look highly intollerant. Please do highlight where you suspected "undertones". I would be very interested to know what I have said.

I am now going to jump to an unreasonable conclusion - that you would spend an awful lot of your day arguing black was white - am I right? No probably not.

PEACE. :)
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KAding
07-01-2007, 09:47 PM
I don't think this article is accurate. First of all his name is misspelled, it should probably be "Van Der Hoven", not Vander Hoven. Secondly, this psychologist "Van Der Hoven" doesn't seem to exist on the internet except for a few hundred Islamic websites. In fact, these stories often differ slightly, sometimes he is a "Professor" in the Netherlands, sometimes he is just an "psychologist". Besides, no "Van Der Hoven" has ever published anything related to psychology in any recent academic paper. I've even searched for him in Dutch, without any results at all, let alone about this finding.

This looks like a hoax.
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KAding
07-01-2007, 09:56 PM
Maybe they need something like http://www.snopes.com to investigate possible Islamic hoaxes ;).
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czgibson
07-01-2007, 10:30 PM
Greetings, PA,
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
plus, prior I have stated, my replies aren't directed toward you alone but to the gent. that states such a topic or research is and I quote, an "intellectual stagnation"... I didn't see his subscription ID to the illuminati club ....
Thanks for making that (typically polite) reference to me.

No thanks for misrepresenting what I wrote.

Try reading it again.

Peace
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جوري
07-01-2007, 10:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings, PA,


Thanks for making that (typically polite) reference to me.

No thanks for misrepresenting what I wrote.

Try reading it again.

Peace
You are most welcome Mr. Pococurante! -- I am not into tightening the noose around anyone's neck, nor have I any more interest in rereading glib!... My first impression is usually the correct one!
peace!
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doorster
07-01-2007, 11:10 PM
Vander Hoven, a psychologist from Netherlands, announced his new discovery about the effect of reading the Qur'an and repeating the word ALLAH both on patients and on normal persons.
to the thread starter:

what sound do the following words/names have in common?

Allah
Yahweh
Jehova
Khuda
rama
krishna
budha
kali
jeezaz (tele-evangelist mode for Jesus)
aum (om)
auramazda

would chanting of any of the above have same magical/mystical effect or not?

why do you think that we are not allowed to chant word/name Allah repeatedly?
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ranma1/2
07-02-2007, 12:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
Yes , I agree, bc we are not supposed to believe things which are not proven, even if they speak pro-Islam. But bc of the love for Islam, people tend to believe quickly without proving if it is true.

But as for the scientific effects of saying Allah, is true. I will translate the part of the video inshaAllah, of the explanation of what happens to the body when sayin the word Allah.
I think the validity of the article is an important question. however i think the issue is that others are saying that the word "allah" has some magical property. This of course seems false. I do agree that for certain people it may have a psycological effect but the same can be said for anyone that gets a relief from something they like.
Controlled breathing also seemed important but still the imphasis seemed to be on the word "allah".

Who here thinks if a christian fundie would get the same effects by saying allah?

Who here thinks that they will get the same effect by controlled breathing and saying words or similar sounds that can use similar parts of the body?

Im betting you will get better results with the latter.
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ranma1/2
07-02-2007, 01:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karina
I am astounded by your over-reaction!

I have never once doubted the positive effect of certain words or actions - yes - prayer. I have already said it at least twice, maybe three times - would you like me to say it again?

I find it intriguing that you persist to twist my comments (to make me look biggoted? Or am I making hasty assumptions?) - I'm not sure what your intention is, although you're making a really good job of making yourself look highly intollerant. Please do highlight where you suspected "undertones". I would be very interested to know what I have said.

I am now going to jump to an unreasonable conclusion - that you would spend an awful lot of your day arguing black was white - am I right? No probably not.

PEACE. :)
just ignore PA. She? just loves to haze and troll others.
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جوري
07-02-2007, 01:32 AM
a deus ex machina has come to save the day, but as usual comes up empty--an ostentatious sable coat!

peace!
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doorster
07-02-2007, 01:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
a deus ex machina has come to save the day, but as usual comes up empty--an ostentatious sable coat!

peace!
:sl:

I would like to say something to this scientist but last time I did that a mod put a warning in my profile for "insulting another member" ( I made a post in response to him saying that I was you with a double ID)

:w:
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جوري
07-02-2007, 01:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
:sl:

I would like to say something to this scientist but last time I did that a mod put a warning in my profile for "insulting another member"

:w:
:sl:

ma hwa min "3alim" ya saydi... but is under false pretense!
I don't want to pull an atheist-- but seems the "ignore" or "troll" line is what others use when met with a confounder!
:w:
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Faith Freedom
07-05-2007, 12:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karina
Undertones?

Hmm. If my personal profile had the "Sister" symbol right there, no reference to me being "Agnostic" and I was making the same valid point..... please do re-assure me that your (over)reaction would have been the same?

Honestly?
There's no point arguing over this when there are much bigger things to be argued over in the Quran and Hadiths which this website will not allow. You have already shown your use of reason, logic and common sense which a lot of people tend to lack...Greatly.

On a final note, can I PM you regarding a few things?
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Karina
07-05-2007, 08:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faith Freedom
There's no point arguing over this when there are much bigger things to be argued over in the Quran and Hadiths which this website will not allow. You have already shown your use of reason, logic and common sense which a lot of people tend to lack...Greatly.

On a final note, can I PM you regarding a few things?
Yeah go for it
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-06-2007, 02:12 AM
Indirect attacks is a cheap method. Dont use it :D
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جوري
07-06-2007, 02:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
Indirect attacks is a cheap method. Dont use it :D
It is the usual pedantic public display that is customary to some folks.... Do you honestly want to see pettifoggeries on a public forum-- in heavy exchange of the vulgar tongue? let them take it in private instead of spamming yet another thread!
:w:
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snakelegs
07-06-2007, 04:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faith Freedom
There's no point arguing over this when there are much bigger things to be argued over in the Quran and Hadiths which this website will not allow. You have already shown your use of reason, logic and common sense which a lot of people tend to lack...Greatly.

On a final note, can I PM you regarding a few things?
hmmm.....interesting user name :hmm:
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vpb
07-06-2007, 04:34 AM
There's no point arguing over this when there are much bigger things to be argued over in the Quran and Hadiths which this website will not allow. You have already shown your use of reason, logic and common sense which a lot of people tend to lack...Greatly.
dudeeeeee, woww :)

you look like those guys in those movies, where when the action starts, there is a bit of music in the background, fire and mess everywhere, and this guy comes up in the scence with formal dress, two guns in his hand, walking slow motion towards us.. lolll

Is there anything new about problems in Qur'an, cuz we are tired of the old ones, so you don't have to talk anything, unless u discovered any "contradiciton" in the Qur'an. haha :)

may Allah guide you on the straight path.
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Karina
07-06-2007, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Faith Freedom
There's no point arguing over this when there are much bigger things to be argued over in the Quran and Hadiths which this website will not allow. You have already shown your use of reason, logic and common sense which a lot of people tend to lack...Greatly.

On a final note, can I PM you regarding a few things?
Hey! I aint having no biggotry badmouthing or shenannigans so think again if that's what you mean....................... :blind:
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-08-2007, 11:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
hmmm.....interesting user name :hmm:
Umm i definitely noticed that but hoping its not what i think it is :X lol.
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snakelegs
07-09-2007, 04:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
Umm i definitely noticed that but hoping its not what i think it is :X lol.
yep, sure enough. he's been banned. pretty unimaginative, don't you think?
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Goku
07-09-2007, 02:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
yep, sure enough. he's been banned. pretty unimaginative, don't you think?
Well if it is what i think it is, it seems some members of that hate site are trying a new tactic, be sociable and then bite them in the back, well its a change from all out hate...:rolleyes:
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-09-2007, 03:37 PM
^^Lol! yeaa truu.
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Goku
07-11-2007, 02:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
^^Lol! yeaa truu.
Yea

Its ironic that those same people simply confirm the truth of these Qur'anic verses without realising it:

002.006
As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe

002.007
Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
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root
07-11-2007, 06:15 PM
Purest Ambrosia - yet here I present an article from numerous articles of the benefits of prayer and spirituality, coming out of well respected institutions! What say you about this as well?..
This is very true, prayer and spirituality can scientifically seem to add benefits to the "believer". But then again, so can a lump of chalk when the patient believes it to be a new "wonder drug".

Surely, if prayer are to be validated then preying for someone who is not aware that they are being preyed for and show similar results would be great, perhaps you could point us to a relavent peer reviewed scientific paper where this is indeed the case, failing that I think the chalk truly is a wonder drug, or simply a placebo like what you yourself speak of.
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جوري
07-11-2007, 06:20 PM
I have already enclosed a peer reviewed paper from Duke university, on this very thread!
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root
07-11-2007, 06:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram
Hahaha Welcome back Root...Haven't seen you in ages.

Well regardless of wether one is aware of it or not, don't you think it's time to start coming to terms that there is some sort of supreme diety called the 'Creator'...I mean, this stuff seriously can't just be all chance now, can it?

As a footnote, I would hate to be preyed on :p
My answer to that is I don't care for 10000000 - 1 outsiders? The fact remains, plecebos work, praying works (only if the person prays for themselves or is aware someone else is) else, it's as much use as a piece of chalk. Face the evidence.........................

PS. It is good to be back, been busy
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جوري
07-11-2007, 06:30 PM
Just in case your navigating fingers find it difficult to go back a few pages
http://www.dukemednews.duke.edu/news...le.php?id=9136

if you have a subscription to the lancet which is a british journal, you may see it in the July 16th of 2005 issue... you may also find it in the (Monitoring and Actualization of Noetic TRAinings) Project, appear in the Nov. 1 issue of the American Heart Journal.

The report from Duke, which appears in the July 16, 2005, issue of The Lancet, is based upon data from the Monitoring and Actualization of Noetic TRAinings (MANTRA) II study – the first multicenter, prospective, randomized trial of distant intercessory prayer and bedside music, imagery and touch therapy (MIT). "Noetic" interventions like prayer and MIT therapies are defined as "an intangible healing influence brought about without the use of a drug, device or surgical procedure," .
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جوري
07-11-2007, 06:34 PM
Tiger man knows how to run a random double-blind research design and knows that prayer is equivalent to placebo because he said so!
At this point there is nothing more to say.. I have a little sour stomach today and don't want to entertain the psychobabble a pseudo intellect...
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root
07-11-2007, 06:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Just in case your navigating fingers find it difficult to go back a few pages
http://www.dukemednews.duke.edu/news...le.php?id=9136

if you have a subscription to the lancet which is a british journal, you may see it in the July 16th of 2005 issue... you may also find it in the (Monitoring and Actualization of Noetic TRAinings) Project, appear in the Nov. 1 issue of the American Heart Journal.
Thanks for the links, no offence but before I possibly waste my time here by reading this. Does it show positive healing/recovery effects for people who were NOT aware that they were recieving prayer?
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جوري
07-11-2007, 06:38 PM
yes a 10% improvement in the outcome of those receiving prayer and didn't know they were being prayed for-- if you want the actual article then you can log into lancet, there is a small fee, but I think you may be able to log in as a guest!
peace!
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جوري
07-11-2007, 06:47 PM
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root
07-11-2007, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
yes a 10% improvement in the outcome of those receiving prayer and didn't know they were being prayed for-- if you want the actual article then you can log into lancet, there is a small fee, but I think you may be able to log in as a guest!
peace!
Thanks, I wonder if you perform a clinical trial scientifically. Does that trial need to be repeated and if so should the result mirror the original trial. I think it's called a theory being "testable".

I also note with interest your article dated 2005. Here is such an experiment several years later and shows the opposite results.....

Praying for someone might give you hope, but it won't help them recover from heart surgery. It may even harm them. That's the surprising result from a multi-year clinical trial on the therapeutic effects of prayer.

Herbert Benson and Jeffery Dusek of the Mind/Body Medical Institute at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts, and their colleagues followed the fates of 1802 patients undergoing coronary bypass operations. Several Christian prayer groups prayed for one set of patients, while another did not receive any prayers. Although all these patients knew they were in the trial, neither they nor their doctors knew which of the groups they were in.

The prayers made no detectable difference. In the first month after surgery, 52 per cent of prayed-for patients and 51 per cent of non-prayed-for patients suffered one or more complications, the researchers found

A third group of patients received the same prayers as the first group, but were told they were being prayed for. Of these, 59 per cent suffered complications - significantly more than the patients left unsure of whether they were receiving prayers.

The researchers have no explanation for this result, but Mitchell Krukoff at Duke University School of Medicine in Durham, North Carolina, suggests that the burden of knowing they were being prayed for may have put added stress on these patients after their surgery.


Source: (American Heart Journal, vol 151, p 934).

BUMP
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جوري
07-11-2007, 06:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
Thanks, I wonder if you perform a clinical trial scientifically. Does that trial need to be repeated and if so should the result mirror the original trial. I think it's called a theory being "testable".

I also note with interest your article dated 2005. Here is such an experiment several years later and shows the opposite results.....



Source: (American Heart Journal, vol 151, p 934).

BUMP
it depends on the trial... in medicine the best clinical trials are random Double blind...you can take my word for it or you can purchase a text book that will tell you all about, case control studies, case reports, case series studies, randomization, cluster samples, coefficient of determination, community survey, confidence limits, confounding limits, correlation coefecient, cross over designs, cross sectional studies, independent variables, inferential statistics, cohort studies etc etc etc, certainly will go beyond the measure of this page, and I reckon what you are looking to infer from all of this...
you need not quote me random statements as per this study, I am very much familiar with all of it.. you wanted the gist and I gave it to you.. 10% improv in outcome. you may shell out $34 and purchase the actual article
peace!
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root
07-11-2007, 07:09 PM
Are you missing the point here Purest, other studies show the opposite. Why take 1 as proof when it supports your position and not bother with the one's that dont.

If something was truthful, then surely all studies would reflect the same results time and time and time again. The fact of the matter is simply that this is NOT the case. Even a piece of chalk is more consistent than preying, and that is a position that the data supports.......
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جوري
07-11-2007, 07:19 PM
No not missing the point, but well aware of what lengths you'd go to support yours. like going to a Richard Dawkings site to quote me your unsourced info..
http://richarddawkins.net/forum/view...913f69fce49404

I am not interested in charlatans, or quasi-scientists or people whose science depends on whether or not they are democrats or republicans or comes from shady third party sources on the Internet to foster a certain ideology... in fact there is better studies out there than the one you quoted from slightly better institutions, if you had searched a little more you'd have probably found it instead of running to your comfort blanket...the outcome of the first still stands unchallenged and the article can still be purchased from a respectable source!

And I am going to be on the level with you, it makes no difference to me whatsoever what you choose to subscribe to or not, I have nothing to prove-- so long as you are happy being an atheist and with any hope can peacefully co-exist with those who don't subscribe to your sterile approach to the world around you!
peace!
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root
07-13-2007, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
No not missing the point, but well aware of what lengths you'd go to support yours. like going to a Richard Dawkings site to quote me your unsourced info..
http://richarddawkins.net/forum/view...913f69fce49404
Wrong, I am fully subscribed to the new scientist which that thread sourced. Just shows how wrong you can be eh!

I am not interested in charlatans, or quasi-scientists or people whose science depends on whether or not they are democrats or republicans or comes from shady third party sources on the Internet to foster a certain ideology... in fact there is better studies out there than the one you quoted from slightly better institutions,
Peer reviewed journals are always far more credible. I agree that the internet contains a load of scientific dross also that has no scientific review process unlike for example http://www.scitube.tv/.

if you had searched a little more you'd have probably found it instead of running to your comfort blanket...the outcome of the first still stands unchallenged and the article can still be purchased from a respectable source!
Oh dear, your wrong again. Not only do I subscribe to the new scientist I actually buy the weekly magazine. It was several months ago that I read the full article. It remembered reading that article when you posted.

And I am going to be on the level with you, it makes no difference to me whatsoever what you choose to subscribe to or not, I have nothing to prove--
It does not matter what you have or have not to prove. Other users who read your one sided approach to prayer and healing need to know some facts that you fail to include such as the point I made. "preying is a great placebo, and only works if the person is aware that they are being prayed for" indeed as I have already pointed out, for some awareness someone is praying for them has a detrimental effect on post recovery.

so long as you are happy being an atheist and with any hope can peacefully co-exist with those who don't subscribe to your sterile approach to the world around you!
peace!
co-exist, hardly. I would NEVER live under Sharia law and thankfully I don't need to, tolerarate belief I do, however I would not sit back and allow for example several archbishops who claimed this week that the floods in the UK are due to God's punishment for moral decline anymore than I would tolerate accepting a homophobic throw them off the highest cliff attitude of Islam.

My world view is far from sterile, it's awesome to see.

The mind is like a parachute, it's useless unless it is open!
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جوري
07-13-2007, 04:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
Wrong, I am fully subscribed to the new scientist which that thread sourced. Just shows how wrong you can be eh!
new scientist isn't accepted by the medical community as a magazine worthy of mention... it is in fact digested by-product for lay folk such as yourself!
you want peer reviewed you subscribe to uptodate and you show them your Hospital ID or student ID. It is $400 and most current on latest research.. the other magazines the medical community accepts and has out are (NEJM, Lancet, JAMA) every subfield has its own journal as well but New Sci. isn't one of them!-- They all share some peer reviewed journals, offer latest research and studies, speak of new meds etc , if a resident showed up on grand rounds or liver rounds or even student rounds with a report from "new scientist" he'd be thoroughly laughed at, the same way we laugh at your Ostentatiously lofty posts!
Peer reviewed journals are always far more credible. I agree that the internet contains a load of scientific dross also that has no scientific review process unlike for example http://www.scitube.tv/.
I am glad you know that, then please stop quoting me dross.. it is a waste of precious time...



Oh dear, your wrong again. Not only do I subscribe to the new scientist I actually buy the weekly magazine. It was several months ago that I read the full article. It remembered reading that article when you posted.
good for you The actual article not clipped to be suitable for your shallow viewing it is in the Lancet for $35.. again a worthy article comes with a price! and a hefty one and not offered to folk on the streets or through a magazine stand or a subscription... otherwise every charlatan and quasi intellect is a would be connoisseur?.. if I wanted to do more research in say what I consider to be an alteration of neuronal function thus exacerbating your grand-mal type seizures, which leads you in turn to this erratic bahavior on various posts, I pay my fees like most respected individuals and look it up in a worthy source before I make false assumptions, like so...
Evaluation of the first seizure in adults
Steven C Schachter, MD


UpToDate performs a continuous review of over 375 journals and other resources. Updates are added as important new information is published. The literature review for version 15.1 is current through December 2006; this topic was last changed on January*10,*2007. The next version of UpToDate (15.2) will be released in June 2007.

INTRODUCTION — A seizure is a sudden change in behavior that is the consequence of brain dysfunction. Epileptic seizures result from electrical hypersynchronization of neuronal networks in the cerebral cortex. Epilepsy is characterized by recurrent epileptic seizures due to a genetically determined or acquired brain disorder [1]. Approximately 0.5 to 1 percent of the population has epilepsy. Nonepileptic seizures (NES), are sudden changes in behavior that resemble epileptic seizures but are not associated with the typical neurophysiological changes that characterize epileptic seizures [2-4].

NES are subdivided into two major types: physiological and psychogenic. Physiological NES are caused by a sudden alteration of neuronal function due to metabolic derangement or hypoxemia. Causes of physiological NES include cardiac arrhythmias, syncope, and severe hypoglycemia. Psychogenic NES are thought to result from stressful psychological conflicts or major emotional trauma and are more challenging to recognize and diagnose than physiological NES, but rarely occur de novo in patients without a significant psychiatric history.

The pharmacological treatment of epileptic seizures is directed at restoring neuronal function to normal, while the treatment of NES is specific to the disorder that triggered the seizure. Thus, the primary goal in evaluating a patient's first seizure is to resolve whether the seizure resulted from a treatable systemic process or intrinsic dysfunction of the central nervous system and, if the latter, the nature of the underlying brain pathology. This evaluation will determine the likelihood that a patient will have additional seizures and assist in the decision whether to begin anticonvulsant therapy [5,6].

The differential diagnosis and clinical features of seizures and the diagnostic evaluation of the first seizure in adults are reviewed here. While convulsive and nonconvulsive status epilepticus may be the initial presentation of epilepsy, they are not specifically discussed because clinical recognition is straightforward [7]. (See "Status epilepticus in adults"). The treatment of chronic epilepsy is reviewed separately. (See "Overview of the management of epilepsy in adults").

ETIOLOGY

Epileptic seizures — Less than one-half of epilepsy cases have an identifiable cause. It is presumed that epilepsy in most, if not all, of these other patients is genetically determined. In the remainder of patients in whom an etiology can be determined, the causes of epileptic seizures include congenital brain malformations, inborn errors of metabolism, high fevers, head trauma, brain tumors, stroke, intracranial infection, cerebral degeneration, withdrawal states, and iatrogenic drug reactions [8]. (See "Post-traumatic seizures and epilepsy"). In the elderly, vascular, degenerative, and neoplastic etiologies are more common than in younger adults and children [9]. A higher proportion of epilepsy in children is due to congenital brain malformations than in other age groups. (See "Epilepsy syndromes in children").

These general principles were illustrated in a population-based cohort study of 1195 patients with newly diagnosed or suspected epileptic seizures, 564 of whom had definite epileptic seizures [10]. The proportions of males and females were similar, 25 percent were under the age of 15, and 24 percent were 60 years or older. The majority (62 percent) of epileptic seizures were idiopathic. In the remainder, the cause was vascular disease in 15 percent and tumor in 6 percent. The proportion with an identifiable cause was much higher in older patients; 49 percent were due to vascular disease and 11 percent to tumor.

Onset of seizures in late life may be a risk factor for stroke, possibly because covert cerebrovascular disease can often be the mechanism of new onset epilepsy in older patients. This point is illustrated by a study of 4,709 people with idiopathic epilepsy beginning at or after the age of 60 years, but no history of stroke [11]. Subjects were matched to the same number of controls with no history of epilepsy or stroke. In longitudinal follow-up, the epilepsy group had a significantly higher risk of stroke at any time point compared with controls (hazard ratio 2.9, 95% CI 2.45-3.41). This finding suggests that new onset of seizures in older patients should prompt evaluation and treatment for stroke risk factors.

Head injury accounts for a relatively small proportion of epilepsy overall. The risk to an individual who suffers head trauma varies widely from minimal risk in people who have a concussive head injury in which the loss of consciousness or amnesia is less than 30 minutes, to at least a 12-fold increased risk over 10 years in people who suffer trauma-induced prolonged amnesia, subdural hematoma, or brain contusion [12]. Antiepileptic drugs prevent seizures in the first week after head injury, but do not prevent the development of epilepsy [13]. (See "Post-traumatic seizures and epilepsy").

Physiological nonepileptic seizures — A number of medical disorders are known to cause physiological NES (show table 1). Hyperthyroidism can cause seizures and can exacerbate seizures in patients with epilepsy. Hypoglycemic seizures are most common in diabetic patients who take excessive amounts of insulin or oral hypoglycemics; islet cell tumors are much less common, but seizures may be the initial presentation. Prodromal symptoms of hypoglycemic seizures include diaphoresis, tachycardia, anxiety, and confusion. Nonketotic hyperglycemia most commonly occurs in elderly diabetics and can cause focal motor seizures. Precipitous falls in serum sodium concentrations can trigger generalized tonic-clonic seizures (see "Generalized seizures" below), usually in association with a prodrome of confusion and depressed level of consciousness. These convulsions are associated with a high risk of mortality and must be treated urgently. (See "Manifestations of hyponatremia and hypernatremia"). Hypocalcemia is a rare cause of seizures and most often occurs in neonates. In adults, hypocalcemia may occur after thyroid or parathyroid surgery or in association with renal failure, hypoparathyroidism, or pancreatitis. Typical prodromic symptoms and signs are mental status changes and tetany. Magnesium levels below 0.8 mEq/L may result in irritability, agitation, confusion, myoclonus, tetany, and convulsions, and may be accompanied by hypocalcemia. (See "Clinical manifestations of hypocalcemia"). Renal failure and uremia are often associated with seizures, particularly myoclonic seizures (see "Generalized seizures" below). Generalized tonic-clonic seizures occur in approximately 10 percent of patients with chronic renal failure, usually late in the course. Seizures may also occur in patients undergoing dialysis as part of the dialysis disequilibrium syndrome; associated symptoms are headache, nausea, muscle cramps, irritability, confusion, and depressed level of consciousness. (See "Seizures in patients undergoing hemodialysis"). Disorders of porphyrin metabolism may cause seizures. Acute intermittent porphyria (AIP) is due to a partial deficiency of porphobilinogen deaminase, which results in excess delta-aminolevulinic acid and porphobilinogen in the urine. Seizures occur in approximately 15 percent of AIP attacks and are usually generalized tonic-clonic seizures, although partial seizures may occur (see "Auras (simple partial seizures)" below and see "Complex partial seizures" below). Other symptoms of AIP include abdominal pain and behavioral changes. (See "Acute intermittent porphyria"). Cerebral anoxia as a complication of cardiac or respiratory arrest, carbon monoxide poisoning, drowning, or anesthetic complication can cause myoclonic and generalized tonic-clonic seizures. Cerebral anoxia due to syncope can result in very brief tonic and/or clonic movements without a prolonged postictal state, which is why syncope frequently results in an evaluation for seizures. (See "Evaluation of the patient with syncope", section on Distinction of syncope from seizures).

DIFFERENTIAL DIAGNOSIS — Several conditions must be differentiated from epileptic seizures.

Sleep disorders — Some patients have seizures that predominantly or exclusively occur during sleep; these must be distinguished from parasomnias and sleep-related movement disorders [14].

REM behavior disorder is a parasomnia that consists of sudden arousals from REM sleep immediately followed by complicated, often aggressive, behaviors for which the patient is amnestic. Diagnosis is clarified by overnight sleep testing (polysomnography). (See "Clinical features and diagnosis of dementia with Lewy bodies", section on REM sleep disorder). Other parasomnias that can be confused with epilepsy are sleepwalking or sleep terrors. (See "Classification of sleep disorders", section on Parasomnias.)

Specific features of the events (eg, duration, clustering, age at onset, timing, stereotypy, recall, vocalizations) can help distinguish nocturnal seizures from sleep disorders (show table 2), but individually these are neither specific nor sensitive [15]. A questionnaire that includes these features and scores their presence or absence according to likelihood of epileptic seizures has been developed and validated in a sample of 62 patients with paroxysmal nocturnal events [15]. In this study, this Frontal Lobe Epilepsy and Parasomnias (FLEP) Scale (show table 2) had a sensitivity of 100 percent and a specificity of 90 percent when compared with video-electroencephalogram monitoring, but additional validation studies are required. Recording episodes on video-EEG monitoring remains necessary when the diagnosis is unclear [16].

Transient ischemic attack — Transient ischemic attack — Transient ischemic attacks (TIAs) may last seconds to minutes. They are generally characterized by "negative" symptoms and signs (such as weakness or visual loss) rather than the "positive" symptoms and signs (eg, jerking movements, stiffening, or visual illusions or hallucinations) that generally accompany seizures. However, positive symptoms can occur in a TIA. As an example, so-called "limb-shaking TIAs" are a well described phenomenon associated with preocclusive disease in the contralateral internal carotid or middle cerebral artery.

Also, the postictal state after seizure may include lateralizing "negative" symptoms such as weakness, a phenomenon referred to as Todd's paralysis. If ictal symptoms were unobserved, the chief complaint may be one of primarily negative symptoms. Rarely, the seizure ictus itself is manifest as weakness, even paralysis of a limb or by speech arrest [17]. (See "Differential diagnosis of brain ischemia").

Transient global amnesia — Transient global amnesia (TGA) is a syndrome characterized by the acute onset of severe anterograde amnesia accompanied by retrograde amnesia, without other cognitive or focal neurologic impairment. The amnesia resolves within 24 hours. Most patients are middle aged or older adults. Episodes are usually not recurrent, but some patients have infrequent attacks that recur over several years.

The etiology of TGA is uncertain [18]. Most TGA episodes are probably related to vasoconstriction or migraine, but some may be caused by transient ischemia or complex partial seizures. TGA can be associated with small focal abnormalities on diffusion-weighted MRI [19-23], but the significance of these remains unclear.

Migraine — Migraine auras such as visual illusions and basilar migraine symptoms, including altered consciousness, can mimic complex partial seizures. Furthermore, the headache that follows complex partial and generalized tonic-clonic seizures is migrainous in quality and duration. (See "Complex partial seizures" below and see "Pathophysiology, clinical manifestations, and diagnosis of migraine in adults").

CLINICAL FEATURES — The diagnostic evaluation of a first seizure begins with the history. An accurate description of the seizure may be difficult to obtain from the patient and witnesses; it is usually necessary to ask pointed questions about the circumstances leading up to the seizure, the ictal behaviors, and the postictal state. It is also worthwhile to inquire specifically whether the patient has had prior seizures, including febrile seizures in infancy, or other episodes that were not evaluated by a physician or that were labeled as something other than seizures.

Seizure precipitants or triggers — A key element in the history is whether a particular environmental or physiological precipitant or trigger immediately preceded the seizure. Some patients with epilepsy tend to have seizures under particular conditions, and their first seizure may provide a clue to their so-called seizure trigger. Triggers include (but are not limited to) strong emotions, intense exercise, loud music, and flashing lights. (See "Photic-induced seizures" below). These triggers are often experienced immediately before the seizure.

Other physiological conditions such as fever, the menstrual period, lack of sleep, and stress can also precipitate seizures, probably by lowering seizure threshold rather than directly causing a seizure. As a result, the temporal relationship to the presenting seizure is often less clear. Triggers may also precipitate physiological nonepileptic seizures (NES); a cough, for example, can bring on a syncopal seizure.

However, the majority of patients with epilepsy have no identifiable or consistent trigger to their seizures. In addition, triggers are the sole cause of epileptic seizures in only a very small percentage of patients.

**Photic-induced seizures — Photosensitivity has received considerable attention as a seizure trigger. The light stimulation may come from a natural or artificial source, in particular television shows and video games. The most famous incident occurred in relation to a Pokémon cartoon aired in 1997 in Japan in which 685 children (from an estimated 7 million viewers) sought medical attention for neurologic symptoms; most (about 80 percent) were felt to be seizures [24,25]. Three-fourths of the children had not experienced seizures previously.

A review of photic-induced seizures made the following epidemiologic observations [25]: Children are more susceptible to photic-induced seizures and photoparoxysmal electroencephalogram (EEG) changes than adults; and photosensitivity may decline in individuals with photic-induced seizures. A tendency for photic-induced seizures may be inherited. Photoconvulsive seizures are usually generalized, but they may be partial. Individuals may be sensitive to certain light triggers but not others. Women appear more susceptible, but males dominate in reports of video game-induced seizures, probably because they play them more.

The stimuli that are most likely to induce seizures appear to be identifiable. Guidelines for restricting use of specific signals on television broadcasts exist in Japan and Great Britain, and a working group has developed draft consensus guidelines in the United States [26].

While photosensitivity suggests seizures, it may not be specific to epilepsy. In one case report, a child with presumed photosensitive epilepsy was found to have visually-induced syncope with bradycardia followed by cardiac arrest, documented by EKG and normal EEG activity during the event [27].

Seizure symptoms and signs — The next step in the history is to identify the symptoms and signs (observed behaviors) that occurred throughout the seizure.

**Auras (simple partial seizures) — The symptoms that a patient experiences at the beginning of the seizure are referred to as the warning or aura. Auras are seizures that affect enough of the brain to cause symptoms, but not enough to interfere with consciousness. In the seizure classification system established by the International League Against Epilepsy, auras are called simple partial seizures (show table 3); "simple" means that consciousness is not impaired and "partial" means that only part of the cortex is disrupted by the seizure [28].

The symptoms of simple partial seizures vary from one patient to another and depend entirely on where the seizure originates in the brain, that is, the part of the cortex that is disrupted at the onset of the seizure. A seizure that begins in the occipital cortex may result in flashing lights, while a seizure that affects the motor cortex will result in rhythmic jerking movements of the face, arm, or leg on the side of the body opposite to the involved cortex (Jacksonian seizure).

Auras that commonly occur in patients with epilepsy are shown in the table (show table 4). These symptoms can also be experienced under other circumstances, but do not typically precede physiological NES. Thus, the occurrence of an aura supports the diagnosis of an epileptic seizure.

When a patient's first seizure was not preceded by a simple partial seizure, it is more difficult to distinguish whether it was an epileptic seizure or a NES. Many epileptic patients do not have a warning when their seizures start. Instead, they abruptly lose consciousness, which they may describe as blacking out, when the part of the cortex that controls memory is disrupted by the seizure. However, this process is not specific for epileptic seizures and therefore does not allow differentiation from NES.

**Complex partial seizures — The classification system for epileptic seizures includes several seizure types that are characterized by an abrupt loss of consciousness: complex partial seizures ("complex" means that consciousness and awareness of the surroundings are lost), absence seizures, and generalized tonic-clonic seizures (also known as convulsions; "tonic" refers to muscle stiffening and "clonic" refers to muscle jerking) (show table 3).

Complex partial seizures (previously called temporal lobe seizures or psychomotor seizures) are the most common type of seizure in epileptic adults. During the seizure patients appear to be awake but are not in contact with others in their environment and do not respond normally to instructions or questions. They often seem to stare into space and either remain motionless or engage in repetitive behaviors, called automatisms, such as facial grimacing, gesturing, chewing, lip smacking, snapping fingers, repeating words or phrases, walking, running, or undressing. Patients may become hostile or aggressive if physically restrained during complex partial seizures.

Complex partial seizures typically last less than three minutes and may be immediately preceded by a simple partial seizure. Afterward, the patient enters the postictal phase, often characterized by somnolence, confusion, and headache for up to several hours (show table 5). The patient has no memory of what took place during the seizure other than, perhaps, the aura.

The behaviors that typify complex partial seizures are not specific for epileptic seizures and may be observed in association with NES.

**Generalized seizures — In contrast to partial seizures, generalized seizures originate virtually in all the regions of the cortex. Absence seizures and generalized tonic-clonic seizures are types of generalized seizures. Other subtypes of generalized seizures are clonic, myoclonic, tonic, and atonic seizures. Absence seizures usually occur during childhood and typically last between 5 and 10 seconds. They frequently occur in clusters and may take place dozens or even hundreds of times a day. Absence seizures cause sudden staring with impaired consciousness. If an absence seizure lasts for 10 seconds or more, there may also be eye blinking and lip smacking. Absence seizures are discussed in greater detail separately. (See "Epilepsy syndromes in children", section on Absence seizures). A generalized tonic-clonic seizure (also called grand mal seizure, major motor seizure, or convulsion) is the most dramatic type of seizure (show table 6). It begins with an abrupt loss of consciousness, often in association with a scream or shriek. All of the muscles of the arms and legs as well as the chest and back then become stiff. The patient may begin to appear cyanotic during this tonic phase. After approximately one minute, the muscles begin to jerk and twitch for an additional one to two minutes. During this clonic phase the tongue can be bitten, and frothy and bloody sputum may be seen coming out of the mouth. The postictal phase begins once the twitching movements end. The patient is initially in a deep sleep, breathing deeply, and then gradually wakes up, often complaining of a headache. Clonic seizures cause rhythmical jerking muscle contractions that usually involve the arms, neck, and face. Myoclonic seizures consist of sudden, brief muscle contractions that may occur singly or in clusters and that can affect any group of muscles, although typically the arms are affected. Consciousness is usually not impaired. Tonic seizures cause sudden muscle stiffening, often associated with impaired consciousness and falling to the ground. Atonic seizures (also known as drop seizures or drop attacks) produce the opposite effect of tonic seizures — a sudden loss of control of the muscles, particularly of the legs, that results in collapsing to the ground and possible injuries.

The behaviors that typify absence seizures and generalized tonic-clonic seizures are not specific for epileptic seizures and may be observed in association with NES.

Other aspects of the patient history

**Medication history — There are a number of medications that have been associated with iatrogenic seizures [8,29]. Partial-onset seizures are less likely to be drug-induced than generalized tonic-clonic seizures.

**Past medical history — There are a number of risk factors for epileptic seizures that should be addressed, including head injury, stroke, Alzheimer's disease, history of intracranial infection, and alcohol or drug abuse.

**Family history — A positive family history of seizures is highly suggestive that the patient has epilepsy. In particular, absence seizures and myoclonic seizures may be inherited. Occasionally, a family member does not have seizures but has an abnormal electroencephalogram.

Physical and neurologic examination — The physical examination is generally unrevealing in patients with epileptic seizures, but is important when central nervous system infection or hemorrhage are diagnostic possibilities. The neurologic examination should evaluate for lateralizing abnormalities, such as weakness, hyperreflexia, or a positive Babinski sign, that may point to a contralateral structural brain lesion.

DIAGNOSTIC STUDIES

Laboratory screening — Laboratory evaluations that are appropriate for the evaluation of a first seizure include glucose, calcium, magnesium, hematology studies, renal function tests, and toxicology screens. Tests for porphyria may be considered under appropriate clinical circumstances. Some laboratory abnormalities such as metabolic acidosis and leukocytosis may occur as a result of the seizure; thus, abnormal test results detected immediately after the seizure has occurred should be repeated.

**Prolactin — Serum prolactin assessment has limited utility as a diagnostic test for epileptic seizures [30]. The serum prolactin concentration may rise shortly after generalized tonic-clonic seizures and some partial seizures. Typically, a level is drawn 10 to 20 minutes after the event and compared with a baseline level drawn six hours later. Criteria for abnormality are not well established; many investigators use twice the baseline level.

A systematic review made the following conclusions regarding prolactin as a diagnostic test for epileptic seizures [31]: Pooled sensitivity was higher for generalized tonic-clonic seizures than for partial complex seizures (60 versus 46 percent). An elevated serum prolactin level can be useful in differentiating generalized tonic-clonic and partial complex seizures from psychogenic seizures in adults and older children. The positive predictive value is greater than 93 percent, if the pretest probability is 50 percent or higher. Because of low sensitivity, a normal prolactin level is insufficient to exclude epileptic seizures or support a psychogenic diagnosis. Some studies suggest that prolactin rises after syncope. Prolactin levels cannot be used to differentiate seizure from syncope. Insufficient data preclude conclusions regarding the utility of prolactin levels after simple partial seizures, repetitive seizures, status epilepticus, and in neonates.

Lumbar puncture — A lumbar puncture is essential if the clinical presentation is suggestive of an acute infectious process that involves the central nervous system or the patient has a history of cancer that is known to metastasize to the meninges. In other circumstances the test is not likely to be helpful and may be misleading since a prolonged seizure itself can cause cerebrospinal fluid pleocytosis. Lumbar puncture should only be performed after a space occupying brain lesion has been excluded by appropriate neuroimaging studies.

Electroencephalography — The electroencephalogram (EEG) is an essential study in the diagnostic evaluation of epileptic seizures. If abnormal, the EEG may aid in confirming the diagnosis of epileptic seizures and also indicate whether a patient has generalized or partial seizures. Use of sleep deprivation and provocative measures during the test, such as hyperventilation and intermittent photic stimulation, increase the yield [32,33]. In one study of 85 individuals, sleep deprivation resulted in a higher rate of focal discharges than routine EEG (13 versus 7 percent) [33]. An abnormal EEG that confirms the clinical diagnosis of epilepsy substantially increases the likelihood that the patient will experience a second seizure over the next two years [34].

However, a normal EEG does not rule out epilepsy, and many EEG abnormalities are nonspecific. As an example, both generalized and focal slowing are common in patients with migraine headaches. Diffuse slowing may also occur with a wide variety of encephalopathies or in association with some medications, especially at high dosages. Epileptiform abnormalities are usually more informative than less specific changes.

Neuroimaging — A neuroimaging study should be done to exclude a structural brain abnormality if the patient's first seizure was clearly not a physiological NES. Brain magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) is preferred over computed tomography (CT) to identify specific lesions such as cortical dysplasias, infarcts, or tumors. Nevertheless, a brain CT scan is suitable to exclude a mass lesion, hemorrhage, or large stroke under emergency situations or if an MRI is unavailable or contraindicated (eg, in patients with pacemakers, non-compatible aneurysm clips, or severe claustrophobia).

The value of neuroimaging in the evaluation of adults with a first seizure was demonstrated in a retrospective review of CTs in 148 patients studied within 30 days of the seizure [35]. The cause of seizure was established in 71 patients (48 percent); a structural lesion was identified by CT in 55, 16 had metabolic seizures, and the remainder were idiopathic. CT findings agreed with the results of neurologic and EEG examination in 82 percent of cases. However, structural lesions (including three tumors) were found by CT in an additional 14 patients (15 percent) with nonfocal findings.

Structural abnormalities on brain MRI or CT usually suggest a symptomatic, focal-onset epilepsy syndrome, but these findings should not be interpreted in isolation. In two case series, 22 to 24 percent of patients with idiopathic generalized epilepsy had structural neuroimaging abnormalities [35,36]. Most of these findings, however, were nonspecific (eg, white matter and basal ganglia abnormalities, cortical atrophy).

In young to middle-aged adults, common MRI findings are mesial temporal sclerosis, sequelae of head injury, congenital anomalies, brain tumors, and vascular lesions. In the elderly, MRIs often reveal strokes, cerebral degeneration, or neoplasms. However, up to 50 percent of patients, regardless of age, have normal neuroimaging studies. The utility of brain MRI in children presenting with a seizure is discussed separately. (See "Clinical and laboratory diagnosis of seizures in infants and children", section on Neuroimaging).

WHEN TO START ANTIEPILEPTIC THERAPY — The decision to initiate therapy with antiepileptic drugs is often difficult. This topic is discussed separately. (See "Overview of the management of epilepsy in adults", section Antiepileptic drug therapy).

PSYCHOSOCIAL CONSIDERATIONS — Newly diagnosed patients with epilepsy may suffer a number of losses, including loss of independence, employment, insurance, ability to drive, and self-esteem. As the treatment plan is formulated, these psychosocial issues should be explored with patients so that appropriate referrals for additional help and counseling can be initiated.

Driving — States vary widely in driver licensing requirements for patients with epilepsy [37]. This topic is discussed in more detail elsewhere. (See "Driving restrictions for patients with seizures and epilepsy").

HOSPITALIZATION — Hospitalization may be required for patients who have a first seizure associated with a prolonged postictal state or incomplete recovery. Other indications for hospitalization include status epilepticus, the presence of a systemic illness that may require treatment, a history of head trauma, or questions regarding compliance.

REFERRAL — Many primary care physicians do not feel comfortable with the initial evaluation and management of patients with seizures and refer them to neurologists. All patients in whom the diagnosis is in question should be referred to a neurologist. Other indications for referral include focal findings on the neurologic examination or EEG, or a history suggestive of a focal seizure. Some experts believe that all patients with suspected seizures should be referred to a specialist [38].

CONCLUSIONS — The primary objectives of the medical evaluation of the first seizure are to establish whether it resulted from a correctable systemic process, and if not, whether the patient is at risk for developing further unprovoked seizures. A careful history, physical and neurologic examinations, and laboratory evaluation are usually helpful in achieving these objectives and determining the appropriate therapeutic approach. Referral to a specialist is indicated for most persons suspected of having a seizure, especially if focal features are present on examination or testing.


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10.*Sander, JW, Hart, YM, Johnson, AL, Shorvon, SD. National General Practice Study of Epilepsy: newly diagnosed epileptic seizures in a general population. Lancet 1990; 336:1267.
11.*Cleary, P, Shorvon, S, Tallis, R. Late-onset seizures as a predictor of subsequent stroke. Lancet 2004; 363:1184.
12.*Annegers, JF, Hauser, WA, Coan, SP, Rocca, WA. A population-based study of seizures after traumatic brain injuries. N Engl J Med 1998; 338:20.
13.*Temkin, NR. Antiepileptogenesis and seizure prevention trials with antiepileptic drugs: meta-analysis of controlled trials. Epilepsia 2001; 42:515.
14.*Bazil, CW. Nocturnal seizures. Semin Neurol 2004; 24:293.
15.*Derry, CP, Davey, M, Johns, M, et al. Distinguishing sleep disorders from seizures: diagnosing bumps in the night. Arch Neurol 2006; 63:705.
16.*Derry, CP, Duncan, JS, Berkovic, SF. Paroxysmal motor disorders of sleep: the clinical spectrum and differentiation from epilepsy. Epilepsia 2006; 47:1775.
17.*Villani, F, D'Amico, D, Pincherle, A, et al. Prolonged focal negative motor seizures: a video-EEG study. Epilepsia 2006; 47:1949.
18. *Caplan, LR. Transient global amnesia. In: Handbook of Clinical Neurology, vol 1 (46), Clinical Neuropsychology, Frederiks, JAM (Ed), Vinken, PJ, Bruyn, GW, Klawans (Eds), Elsevier, Amsterdam, 1985. p.205.
19.*Woolfenden, AR, O'Brien, MW, Schwartzberg, RE, et al. Diffusion-weighted MRI in transient global amnesia precipitated by cerebral angiography. Stroke 1997; 28:2311.
20.*Strupp, M, Bruning, R, Wu, RH, et al. Diffusion-weighted MRI in transient global amnesia: elevated signal intensity in the left mesial temporal lobe in 7 of 10 patients. Ann Neurol 1998; 43:164.
21.*Ay, H, Furie, KL, Yamada, K, Koroshetz, WJ. Diffusion-weighted MRI characterizes the ischemic lesion in transient global amnesia. Neurology 1998; 51:901.
22.*Sedlaczek, O, Hirsch, JG, Grips, E, et al. Detection of delayed focal MR changes in the lateral hippocampus in transient global amnesia. Neurology 2004; 62:2165.
23.*Huber, R, Aschoff, AJ, Ludolph, AC, Riepe, MW. Transient Global Amnesia. Evidence against vascular ischemic etiology from diffusion weighted imaging. J Neurol 2002; 249:1520.
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31.*Chen, DK, So, YT, Fisher, RS. Use of serum prolactin in diagnosing epileptic seizures: report of the Therapeutics and Technology Assessment Subcommittee of the American Academy of Neurology. Neurology 2005; 65:668.
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33.*Leach, JP, Stephen, LJ, Salveta, C, Brodie, MJ. Which electroencephalography (EEG) for epilepsy? The relative usefulness of different EEG protocols in patients with possible epilepsy. J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry 2006; 77:1040.
34.*van Donselaar, CA, Schimsheimer, RJ, Geerts, AT, Declerck, AC. Value of the electroencephalogram in adult patients with untreated idiopathic first seizures. Arch Neurol 1992; 49:231.
35.*Ramirez-Lassepas, M, Cipolle, RJ, Morillo, LR, Gumnit, RJ. Value of computed tomographic scan in the evaluation of adult patients after their first seizure. Ann Neurol 1984; 15:536.
36.*Betting, LE, Mory, SB, Lopes-Cendes, I, et al. MRI reveals structural abnormalities in patients with idiopathic generalized epilepsy. Neurology 2006; 67:848.
37.*Krauss, GL, Ampaw, L, Krumholz, A. Individual state driving restrictions for people with epilepsy in the US. Neurology 2001; 57:1780.
38. *National Institute for Clinical Excellence (UK). The epilepsies: the diagnosis and management of the epilepsies in adults and children in primary and secondary care. NICE Clinical Guideline 20, Oct. 2004. www.nice.org.uk/page.aspx?o=229249 (Accessed 3/7/05).
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And that is how many references would come with a well researched medical article, respected by professionals in the medical community.


It does not matter what you have or have not to prove. Other users who read your one sided approach to prayer and healing need to know some facts that you fail to include such as the point I made. "preying is a great placebo, and only works if the person is aware that they are being prayed for" indeed as I have already pointed out, for some awareness someone is praying for them has a detrimental effect on post recovery.
I think it is awfully presumptuous of you, not to mention almost bordering on a grand delusion to think people are so driven and empty as to misconstrue what you write or what any one writes and take it at face value-- oh leader of the pack and a holder of the flame the last of the "free thought crusader" who has come to knock us out of our juvenile medieval thought processes.
Again, facts are presented from well-respected institutions and the reader whomever he or she maybe hopefully isn't an empty vessel ready to imbue whatever garbage is spewed no matter how authoritatively written!

co-exist, hardly. I would NEVER live under Sharia law and thankfully I don't need to, tolerarate belief I do, however I would not sit back and allow for example several archbishops who claimed this week that the floods in the UK are due to God's punishment for moral decline anymore than I would tolerate accepting a homophobic throw them off the highest cliff attitude of Islam.
You are under some false assumption that what you want or can never tolerate is somehow of biblical importance? ( did I give you a false impression that what you can or cannot tolerate somehow matters of affects me or others on this forum?) eh it is ok--If you can't co-exist then gladtiding indeed-- pls ask a mod to disable your account and take a few of your buddies with you ( I think at this point we are all wasting each other's time). If I wanted a forum to support and foster my views I'd join one, in fact I have! you on the other hand seem to be better suited for the Dawkin's forum?! I am not sure why you waste your time here? Do you think they who navaigated with their fingers to this forum can't navigate to another of opposite views? I'd like to think everyone is here by choice... you in my humble opinion yet again seem like an abrasive character who is condescending and patronizing to almost if not totally to everyone who is Muslim(we don't share your mental veil or as you'd like to think "enlightenment") , so why not be more happy with like minds spending endless hours with you in agreement?..

Lastly, I don't care much for the church or its dark ages which continue on the same path, nothing you or any devout Christian member here will be of actual consequence when you tie the two together.. and it is in fact a non-sequitur to compare what an Archbishop said to Islamic Sharia law.. they are based on completely different fundamentals.. one has led its folks to the path of enlightenment, the other has led its folks to its darkest period of history.. there is simply no comparison!

My world view is far from sterile, it's awesome to see.
Again good for you! in my humble opinion you and everything in your world is so very uni-dimensional, and extremely sterile ( Kal' An3am, ball Adhal Sabeelan!) I'd if you had a humane quality about you, I'd almost feel sorry for you (but I don't) and you represent your ilk well!... To me life is a beautiful interweaved integration of the sciences the arts, politics, literature, history, theology, philosophy, nature, social structure ideas and beliefs, one field simply can't impose its presence without the full-fledged influence of the others, a Tree isn't made up of just one leaf; And if it were, it is probably in a very ailing state!
The mind is like a parachute, it's useless unless it is open!
Also very useless if your mind..er parachute is full of holes.. better not to take flight at all than to crash miserably .. there is nothing worst than ignorance short of little knowledge or feigning it in my humble opinion!
Reply

Karina
07-14-2007, 03:19 PM
If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts, but if he will content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties. . ~ Francis Bacon
Reply

جوري
07-14-2007, 05:27 PM
^^ I am not sure what this has to do with the topic but thank you!.. at a risk of extending this beyond where it needs to go, we'll let the wisdom and locutions of dead philosophers solve all our problems with boldness composure and equanimity!

peace!
Reply

root
07-15-2007, 10:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
new scientist isn't accepted by the medical community as a magazine worthy of mention... it is in fact digested by-product for lay folk such as yourself!
You misunderstand the purpose of the new scientist and obviously have never even read it. Your typical blinkered tunnel vision is preventing you from seeing the obvious. It's a wekly science magazine reporting current news across the sciences.

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
you want peer reviewed you subscribe to uptodate and you show them your Hospital ID or student ID. It is $400 and most current on latest research.. the other magazines the medical community accepts and has out are (NEJM, Lancet, JAMA)
Great, $400 to subscribe to obtain my source for the life sciences which is what medical science belongs to. Tell, me since you apparantly seem to know it all. Would that subscription for the "Medical Community" as part of the Life Science give me access to the other branches of that science Botany, Zoology Genetics. Would it also include access to the Earth Sciences (Geology, Oceanography, Paleontology, Meteorology) and The Physical sciences (Physics, Chemistry, Astronomy)?

A simple yes or no will suffice here. I look forward to the Yes or No answer!

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
every subfield has its own journal as well but New Sci. isn't one of them!-- They all share some peer reviewed journals, offer latest research and studies, speak of new meds etc , if a resident showed up on grand rounds or liver rounds or even student rounds with a report from "new scientist" he'd be thoroughly laughed at, the same way we laugh at your Ostentatiously lofty posts!!
Your blinkered tunnel vision again. The NS (New Scientist) reports news from across the whole of the sciences & is not for one specific science, so your time consuming response has been wasted.

I am glad you know that, then please stop quoting me dross.. it is a waste of precious time...
The NS reports medical science news and new peer reviewed publications within them. I hope this clarifies it for you.

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
good for you The actual article not clipped to be suitable for your shallow viewing it is in the Lancet for $35.. again a worthy article comes with a price! and a hefty one and not offered to folk on the streets or through a magazine stand or a subscription...
WRONG. (Again). Actually the article can be obtained from The Lancet free of charge, you can register (for free) to access the paper. When I did, I found it interesting that your source in which you posted here was dated 2001:

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...g-allah-2.html

This paper of yours from the initial MANTRA study concluded the following which I have taken from your post which is linked above:

This is an important study because it provides preliminary information suggestive of a positive effect that needs further study in a larger study sample," said Dr. Harold G. Koenig, associate professor of psychiatry at Duke University Medical Center, and one of the study authors. "Some of the greatest scientific achievements have come from those who step outside of the box, and I believe that is what this study does. The results tend to lean toward prayer helping people, but more study is needed."

Research is continuing. Phase II of the MANTRA project has already enrolled nearly 500 patients out of an enrollment target of 1,500 patients. The larger study is underway at nine sites throughout the U.S., including Duke University Medical Center, Columbia-Presbyterian Hospital in New York City, Washington Heart Center in Washington, Abbott Northwestern Hospital in Minneapolis, Scripps Clinic/Scripps Mercy Hospitals in San Diego, Geisinger Clinic in Danville, Pa., Florida Cardiovascular Center in Atlantis, Fla., and the Durham VAMC.

Preliminary data from this pilot study were previously reported at the 71st meeting of the American Heart Association in 1998. The American Heart Journal article represents the complete, tabulated, peer-reviewed results of the phase I study.
So you posted a preliminary study AKA MANTRA which called for more study AKA MANTRA II when MANTRA II study had already been completed and available for free via the Lancet, here is a little snippet for you:

We applaud Mitchell Krucoff and colleagues (July 16, p 211)1 and The Lancet editors2 for publishing an extensive, well controlled, multisite study on prayer and healing. The Article and accompanying Editorial note that prayer had no significant effect on outcome in 748 heart patients.1,2 Study of the intangible is challenging, and the researchers should be recognised for their insight and courage.
Source:http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...77185/fulltext

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
[otherwise every charlatan and quasi intellect is a would be connoisseur?.. if I wanted to do more research in say what I consider to be an alteration of neuronal function thus exacerbating your grand-mal type seizures,
It was very sneaky and devious of you to post MANTRA I which indicated support for your position and conveniantly forget that MANTRA II was a more recent study aimed at confirming the findings of MANTRA I, the problem was it did the opposite.

Here is the peer reviewed journal on the Lancet:

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...69103/fulltext

(please note FREE registration is required to view it)

.
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
which leads you in turn to this erratic bahavior on various posts, I pay my fees like most respected individuals and look it up in a worthy source before I make false assumptions, like so...
And that is how many references would come with a well researched medical article, respected by professionals in the medical community.,
Indeed. Further, we should make sure our peer reviewed sources are actually not out of date and that the futher and most recent studies are used else you may end up with egg on your face like you undoubtably have.

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I think it is awfully presumptuous of you, not to mention almost bordering on a grand delusion to think people are so driven and empty as to misconstrue what you write or what any one writes and take it at face value--

SNIP.,
So true Purest, afterall your outdated initial study may have been accepted as the authorative most recent study. Good job we never took it at face value eh


format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
You are under some false assumption that what you want or can never tolerate is somehow of biblical importance? ( did I give you a false impression that what you can or cannot tolerate somehow matters of affects me or others on this forum?) eh it is ok--If you can't co-exist then gladtiding indeed-- pls ask a mod to disable your account and take a few of your buddies with you ( I think at this point we are all wasting each other's time). If I wanted a forum to support and foster my views I'd join one, in fact I have! you on the other hand seem to be better suited for the Dawkin's forum?! I am not sure why you waste your time here? Do you think they who navaigated with their fingers to this forum can't navigate to another of opposite views? I'd like to think everyone is here by choice... you in my humble opinion yet again seem like an abrasive character who is condescending and patronizing to almost if not totally to everyone who is Muslim(we don't share your mental veil or as you'd like to think "enlightenment") , so why not be more happy with like minds spending endless hours with you in agreement?...,
Your ranting, calm down my dear you may suffer a grand mal seizure :D

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Also very useless if your mind..er parachute is full of holes.. better not to take flight at all than to crash miserably .. there is nothing worst than ignorance short of little knowledge or feigning it in my humble opinion!
Totally agree, and as I have exposed your trickery with outdated peer review journals and shown that indeed your parachute has more holes than swiss chesse.

Can we now finally put this to bed.

Conclusion

Prayer healing is no better than a piece of chalk.
Reply

AmarFaisal
07-15-2007, 12:58 PM
THis is a long long thread with a lot to read. I don't know if this has been mentioned before. But I just received in email today. I have no sorce for it either. Mayb our forums memebers can do a research on it. As it is related to this subject I am pasting it:

Scientist has proved that the sound which comes from heart beat is LUB DUB.
But now they analyze that it is RUB RUB... RUB is an Arabic
word which means who made each n everythin.... That is
ALLAH............So
it means every heart beat says ALLAH ALLAH............. If u believe
in this...........fwd dis to all ur FRNDS
Reply

Karina
07-15-2007, 01:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
^^ I am not sure what this has to do with the topic but thank you!.. at a risk of extending this beyond where it needs to go, we'll let the wisdom and locutions of dead philosophers solve all our problems with boldness composure and equanimity!

peace!
You're welcome! Sometimes it's nice to have a little randomness in life. :smile:
Reply

Karina
07-15-2007, 02:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AmarFaisal
THis is a long long thread with a lot to read. I don't know if this has been mentioned before. But I just received in email today. I have no sorce for it either. Mayb our forums memebers can do a research on it. As it is related to this subject I am pasting it:

Scientist has proved that the sound which comes from heart beat is LUB DUB.
But now they analyze that it is RUB RUB... RUB is an Arabic
word which means who made each n everythin.... That is
ALLAH............So
it means every heart beat says ALLAH ALLAH............. If u believe
in this...........fwd dis to all ur FRNDS
OK Need I even say anything? It's a lovely thought AmarFaisal, it really would be amazing wouldn't it. But its very easy for someone to fabricate a harmless chain e-mail like this, and it's easily done for those that don't have those good intentions, but quite the opposite.

I'm not going go on about this like a stuck record, but I will refer you back to my original point which was not on the subject matter but more involving the willingness of general folk to accept any old information thrown at them.

We're all guilty of it - for example just think about when you read the paper or watch the news..... but that's another thread!

:p
Reply

ranma1/2
07-15-2007, 03:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karina
OK Need I even say anything? It's a lovely thought AmarFaisal, it really would be amazing wouldn't it. But its very easy for someone to fabricate a harmless chain e-mail like this, and it's easily done for those that don't have those good intentions, but quite the opposite.

I'm not going go on about this like a stuck record, but I will refer you back to my original point which was not on the subject matter but more involving the willingness of general folk to accept any old information thrown at them.

We're all guilty of it - for example just think about when you read the paper or watch the news..... but that's another thread!

:p
see i always thought the heart went,
rub a dub dub..

of course no telling what that may say in another language..... ;)
Reply

جوري
07-15-2007, 04:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
You misunderstand the purpose of the new scientist and obviously have never even read it. Your typical blinkered tunnel vision is preventing you from seeing the obvious. It's a wekly science magazine reporting current news across the sciences.
This concerns me how?

Great, $400 to subscribe to obtain my source for the life sciences which is what medical science belongs to. Tell, me since you apparantly seem to know it all. Would that subscription for the "Medical Community" as part of the Life Science give me access to the other branches of that science Botany, Zoology Genetics. Would it also include access to the Earth Sciences (Geology, Oceanography, Paleontology, Meteorology) and The Physical sciences (Physics, Chemistry, Astronomy)?
Medicine is indeed all encompassing of all the other sciences .. it doesn't exist without the support and build on other sciences , you couldn't have medicine without Genetics, or physiology or biochemistry or pathology or pharmacology etc etc.. again what is your point? This particular article came out in two medical journals initially the study conducted by Duke university ( a univ. very dear to my heart) but I digress... The study wasn't offered us courtesy of botanists world or zoologists city or from oceanographer anonymous.. in the very least pls try to be consistent without side tracking us with tangential off topic posts!

A simple yes or no will suffice here. I look forward to the Yes or No answer!
See above


Your blinkered tunnel vision again. The NS (New Scientist) reports news from across the whole of the sciences & is not for one specific science, so your time consuming response has been wasted.
It hasn't saved you from being redundant though? with every 'new' paragraph I am flashing back to the one previous.. are you really in that much need of validation? :lol:

The NS reports medical science news and new peer reviewed publications within them. I hope this clarifies it for you.
WRONG. (Again). Actually the article can be obtained from The Lancet free of charge, you can register (for free) to access the paper. When I did, I found it interesting that your source in which you posted here was dated 2001:

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...g-allah-2.html

This paper of yours from the initial MANTRA study concluded the following which I have taken from your post which is linked above:
So you posted a preliminary study AKA MANTRA which called for more study AKA MANTRA II when MANTRA II study had already been completed and available for free via the Lancet, here is a little snippet for you:Source:http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...77185/fulltext

It was very sneaky and devious of you to post MANTRA I which indicated support for your position and conveniantly forget that MANTRA II was a more recent study aimed at confirming the findings of MANTRA I, the problem was it did the opposite.
Here is the peer reviewed journal on the Lancet:
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...69103/fulltext
(please note FREE registration is required to view it)
Indeed. Further, we should make sure our peer reviewed sources are actually not out of date and that the futher and most recent studies are used else you may end up with egg on your face like you undoubtably have.
so true Purest, afterall your outdated initial study may have been accepted as the authorative most recent study. Good job we never took it at face value eh
Your ranting, calm down my dear you may suffer a grand mal seizure :D
Totally agree, and as I have exposed your trickery with outdated peer review journals and shown that indeed your parachute has more holes than swiss chesse.
Can we now finally put this to bed.
Conclusion
Prayer healing is no better than a piece of chalk.

You are droll and hyperbolic! -- Rather than take the time answering your usual glib queries. I'll demonstrate your vacuity in a couple of paragraphs ...
I haven't the time to play your terpsichore on this forum or any other for that matter! I am not sure how to reduce terms to a more plebeian level to spark your linear understanding? Is it the monolithic insulation of fat that is concentric around your brain proper that disables you from understanding things from a very low common denominator? Again there is difference between what you buy on the stand, what is available to you as lay man even from a medical journal when you sign in as a GUEST --(which by the way I was the one who pointed your attention to)...and that whic is offered the medical community. I believe I have demonstrated that adequately with the uptodate article above .. further a couple of posts ago demonstrated how the [public/ 'patient'] booklet differs significantly, that can still be seen and compared in a post so entitled 'gilbertson's disease'!

Medicine is indeed the mother of all sciences, given your lilliputian cognition, I have no hope or expectations of you knowing what that entails-- nor am I surprised by your usual discharge of bull. I can pose for you a couple of questions that would have you in a stupor for days, neither your busy finger , or you transmissible spongiform encephalopathic mind, your google and especially not your new scientist would avail you..

How many respected institutions are running the same simultaneous studies and putting out different papers, with subtle nuances, different outcome, what makes one study superior to another? which ones would go in the discard pile and which would be given a second glance? Do two studies of the same nature with different outcomes nullify each other? Does one have superiority over another? What are the confounders? How does the outcome of one group compare to the outcome of another in something this visceral? was there observer bias or expectations? a hawthorne effect? Do you know?

Rather than go through the painstaking task of debunking another one of your pronunciamento, further humiliating and rousing you from your state of child like glee. I'll ask you instead if your NS has presented you with similar peer reviewed studies on the following cardiac issues since, to me frankly if you are not a scientist by profession with some understanding on how to navigate though research articles, it becomes highly suspicious to let you in on THE ONE study that fosters your impressions and beliefs and discards the rest:
For instance Did new scientist offer you the latest research articles on how to manage a heart failure patient, one with super imposed diabetes? Did it give you the latest research on how to manage someone with high risk coronary artery disease along with triglyceridemia? How about research on how to manage someone with hypertension with chronic renal failure? what is the latest research on someone with left ventricular hypertrophy who has had a previous stroke? How about HTN in someone with Wegener's granulomatosis? which study do you think is more impressive on how to manage someone with cor pulmonale? How about the research on how to manage someone with an arrhythmias as a result of Chagas Disease (trypanosomiasis), with concomitant dilation of the heart, esophagus and colon. which study is most beneficial when it comes to the RX. of Wolff-Parkinson-White Syndrome? do you think giving someone Digioxin in that condition would be most suitable?--How about someone with pre-renal azotemia, already in congestive heart failure and is volume over loaded and third spaced??

Did it give you a second comparative parallel study on when amiodarone would be of any benefit? How about its useage in someone with arrhythmia along with pulmonary fibrosis? Do you know when the situation would call for adenosine given that the pt. would go into arrest for the first 30 seconds or so? was there a paper telling you when to use class Ia antiarrhythmics? has new scientist offered you the latest research on Quinidine in Short QT Syndrome? did it offer you the latest study on when disopyramide would be of more benefit? how about the latest study on sotalol, or dofetilide, or ibutilide or when any of them would be of use? when is it best to go for a mechanical valve? and in that case how would one deal with all the mechanical hemolysis with schistocytes?

Did New scientist offer you from one of the thousands of research articles out there the one on the benefits monotherapy with a diuretic?.. did it tell you which two heart meds. have the highest risk when used together in what patient population? Do you know when to use a beta blocker, or an ACE inhibitor, or calcium-channel blocker-- the Non-dihydropyridines type.. do you know when it is time for a cardiac cardiac glycoside?.. was there a research article in there telling you how to distinguish between an Aortic dissection from an angina or a cardiac arrest, pericarditis from restrictive heart disease? Did it offer you research on what meds to adminster in someone with peaked T waves of the EKG? or what to do in the case of J waves? How about in the case of a Myxoma? It seems the heart indeed doesn't have a prayer-- let's branch out to other fields since NS is all about the sciences what is the latest research techniques on how to distinguish Mesenteric fibromatosis from gastrointestinal stromal tumors with a better outcome for the patients?

Did NS give you a nice intro on how to tell the superiority of one study over another in terms of (P) value? in terms of (relative Risk assessment) in terms of confounders? in terms of observer bias?? in terms of pt. population?--
If your fingers found there way to dorland or equivalent medical dictionary, to look up half of those terminologies along with appropriate studies and treatment!.. then please stop exerting your feelings of cultural, emotional and scientific superiority when it is clearely nonexistent!
If I had more time I'd make this much more painful for you Just for the mere pleasure of it.. but what I have written, and what I always write is for the Muslims on board. You have lost all value in my eyes as a credible human being!-- and frankly I don't even want to give you leverage in the form of reply no matter how remote! (I thought we were mutually on the other's ignore list?) I believe the ethical thing for you to do is honor your own words?-- there is something cowardly and ignoble in your attitude -- that makes me actually glad you are who and what you are-- a unidemensional finite Atheist with a dandy Subscription to NS (ib'aa khleeha tinfa3ak ya fali7!)...
la ba'as-- enjoy!
peace!
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