Where Is Allah?

[Hisbul_Aziz]

Where is Allah?
Mahmoud Murad

WHO IS ALLAAH?

Allah is the proper name applied to the true God who exists necessarily by Himself comprising all the excellent Divine names and attributes of perfection. Allaah is One and Unique. He has no son, no partner, nor equal. He is the sole Creator and Sustainer of the universe. Every creature bears witness to His Oneness, Divinity, and Ruboobiyyah [Ruboobiyyah, inf. of Rubb], and to the uniqueness of His attributes and names.

His essence does not resemble the essences. He does not inhere in anything, nor does anything inhere in Him. "There is none like unto Him." He is the One, the Sole, the Indivisible. He is the Rubb [Some translate the term 'Rubb' into 'Lord', the meaning of 'Rubb' is far more comprehensive than to be restricted to a single word such as 'Lord'. Rubb, means, among other things, the Creator, the Sustainer, the Provider, and the One in whose hands is the disposal of all affairs], who accomplishes all affairs, Allaah is the Omnipotent and the Omniscient.

His knowledge comprehends in perfect manner all things, hidden or manifest. He is greater than can be encompassed by the knowledge of His creatures. He knows everything, and He is aware of all that takes place in the earth and the heavens. Allaah, the Supreme, is the Rubb of everything and has a free hand in disposal of all affairs. His mercy encompasses everything. He is far removed from injustice or tyranny. He is wise in all His actions, just in all His decrees. His justice ensures order in the universe in which nothing is out of order.


There is no one to share His dominion, nor does He take an aide or supporter from His creatures. He is nearer to man than man's own jugular vein [TNQ 50:16].

Whenever a believer is in need or distress calls on Him, He responds. Allaah has revealed His final Scripture, the Qur'aan, to that last of His Messengers, Muhammed sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam who was responsible for conveying the Message of Islam to mankind. He is the Exalted Allaah. Glory is due to Him.

[Hisbul_Aziz]

WHERE IS ALLAAH?

Allaah, the Exalted, has described Himself in His Book, and by the tongue of His Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam as Sublime, Supreme, and Lofty. The Qur'aan is full of proofs relevant to the Loftiness of Allaah.

Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama'ah believe in and confirm all of the attributes of Allaah without distorting their meaning, and that Allaah is above His seven heavens, above His 'Arsh, and separated from His creatures, and His creatures are separated from Him.

This discourse will provide the Scriptural proofs of the Loftiness of Allaah is an indivisible part of the inherent faculty of knowing Allaah with which Allaah has created mankind. Although the aqeedah of Loftiness of Allaah is part of man's innate knowledge and cannot be subjected to hypothetical of philosophical argumentation, there are some deviated sects who follow their whims and deny this intuitive and self-evident fact. For this reason, they have twisted Scriptural proofs and distorted them, and manipulated the texts to conform with their deviant argument.

All of the divine attributes are intrinsically related to the attribute of divine Loftiness. Therefore, accepting or rejecting them must be based on accepting or rejecting the Loftiness of Allaah. Whoever believes that Allaah is above His 'Arsh [The Throne of Allaah] and separated from His creatures, also believes in the rest of the attributes of Allaah, and believes as well that the heaves and the earth submit to His will, and that He is the Great Rubb of the worlds. Allaah does whatever He wills and rules according to His Own wishes. Glory be to Him.

Denial of the divine Loftiness is [...] promoted by the Jahmites [Jahmites are the followers of Jahm bin Safan (d. 128-745), [...] Among other things, they deny that Allaah, the Exalted, is above His Arsh, and they allege that He is everywhere] and their off-shoots of today in order to confuse the Muslims' minds. Denying this divine attribute also leads by necessity to the denial of the attribute of the istiwaa of Allaah above His Arsh. There is no doubt that the denial of the attributes of Allaah clashes with the clear Qur'aanic verses in which the unique essential attributes and beautiful names of Allaah confirmed. These attributes must be affirmed as identical with Allaah.

The essential divine attributes of Allaah constitute an integral part of His essence and are not superadded to it. They are accepted literally by Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama'h without questioning the 'how' of these attributes. To deny them is clear unbelief and heresy. It is for this reason this discourse has been prepared to deal with the creed of Loftiness of Allaah, or the question, 'Where is Allaah?' with the Scriptural evidences from the Qur'aan and the authentic prophetic traditions, as well as the traditions of those early Muslims, the pious predecessors.

[Hisbul_Aziz]

THE QURANIC PROOFS

Allaah, the Exalted, commands the believers to refer their disputes and differences to His Book and the Sunnah of His Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam saying: "And when you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and the Last Day." [6]

Therefore, the words of Allaah, the Exalted, as well as the words of His Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam must be held as the ultimate and decisive judgment. No judgment or decision should take precedence over theirs whether in issues related to the divine attributes, or any other religious issue.

By their emphasis on reason in establishing religious truth, the rationalists, the modernists, and the Jahmites assert the preeminence of reason over the divine revelations. Whereas the Loftiness of Allaah which is clearly enunciated in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah, is beyond the reach of reason.

The true believers, contrary to the rationalists, believe that the 'Arsh of Allaah is above the seven heavens. They also believe that having created the seven heavens and the earth and what is in them, Allaah, the Exalted, has His great 'Arsh. Allaah says: "Declare your Rubb, the Supreme, to be far removed from every imperfection or impurity." [7]

The "Supreme", linguistically, is in the superlative signifying that Allaah is higher than everything and is above all things in essence, power, and invincibility. Commenting on this verse, Ibn al-Qayyim, may Allaah grant him His mercy, said: All Muslims in the past and in the present, when supplicating Allaah or imploring His help, they always raise their hands with palms towards the heaven. They do not lower their hands with palms towards the earth, nor do they turn them right or left, nor towards any other direction. They raise their hands up, knowing that Allaah is above them. The Muslims also say in prayer while prostrating, "I declare my Rubb, the Supreme, to be far removed from every imperfection or impurity." [8]

If Allaah is everywhere, as the [...] sects allege, why then the above verse does not read, 'Declare your Rubb, (around you), (below you), or (everywhere)?' Allaah says: "They fear their Rubb above them." [9]

This verse refers to the angels who are above us, and above them is our Rubb, the Blessed, the Exalted. Lest anyone be confused, Allaah confirms in this verse that He is above the angels who are the residents of the heavens: "The Compassionate has rose over the 'Arsh." [10]

And: "And verily, your Rubb is Allaah who created the heaven and earth in six days, and then rose over the 'Arsh." [11]

Allaah also says: "Are you sure that He Who is Above the heaven will not cleave the earth beneath you? Or are you sure that He Who is above the heaven will not send against you a stone-charged hurricane." [12]

The renowned exegetes and commentators are agreed that the One Who is above the heaven is none but Allaah Who has rose over His Arsh and is above it in the manner which suits His Majesty.

Those who believe that Allaah is everywhere base their argument on verses such as:"And He is Ilaah in the Heavens and He is Ilaah on the Earth!"

The term, 'Ilaah' is classical Arabic means, 'the worshipped'; thus the meaning of the above verse is, "It is He Who is worshipped in the heaven and worshipped on the earth". It would have been redundant were the verse to speak about the existence of Allaah in the heaven and on the earth, for the term Illah' is an adjective of Allaah, while the pronouns, 'He' in the verse is used in lieu of the name 'Allaah', therefore, when the name 'Allaah' replaces the pronoun 'He', we get the proper meaning of the verse: 'And it is Allaah Who is worshipped in the heaven and on the earth'. But according to the [...] sect who consider the term, 'Ilaah' as 'Allaah', we get the redundant meaning, 'And Allaah is Allaah in the heaven and Allaah is on the earth,' a sentence which is grammatically, linguistically and logically incorrect. Qatadah, a renowned exegete, interpreted this verse as: 'He is worshipped in the heaven and on the earth'.

Imaam al-Aajurri said: 'al-Ilaah, is the worshipped. He is worshipped in the heaven as He is worshipped on the earth.'

[E'jaazi]

THE QURANIC PROOFS

Allaah, the Exalted, commands the believers to refer their disputes and differences to His Book and the Sunnah of His Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam saying: "And when you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and the Last Day." [6]

Therefore, the words of Allaah, the Exalted, as well as the words of His Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam must be held as the ultimate and decisive judgment. No judgment or decision should take precedence over theirs whether in issues related to the divine attributes, or any other religious issue.

By their emphasis on reason in establishing religious truth, the rationalists, the modernists, and the Jahmites assert the preeminence of reason over the divine revelations. Whereas the Loftiness of Allaah which is clearly enunciated in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah, is beyond the reach of reason.

The true believers, contrary to the rationalists, believe that the 'Arsh of Allaah is above the seven heavens. They also believe that having created the seven heavens and the earth and what is in them, Allaah, the Exalted, has His great 'Arsh. Allaah says: "Declare your Rubb, the Supreme, to be far removed from every imperfection or impurity." [7]

The "Supreme", linguistically, is in the superlative signifying that Allaah is higher than everything and is above all things in essence, power, and invincibility. Commenting on this verse, Ibn al-Qayyim, may Allaah grant him His mercy, said: All Muslims in the past and in the present, when supplicating Allaah or imploring His help, they always raise their hands with palms towards the heaven. They do not lower their hands with palms towards the earth, nor do they turn them right or left, nor towards any other direction. They raise their hands up, knowing that Allaah is above them. The Muslims also say in prayer while prostrating, "I declare my Rubb, the Supreme, to be far removed from every imperfection or impurity." [8]

If Allaah is everywhere, as the [...] sects allege, why then the above verse does not read, 'Declare your Rubb, (around you), (below you), or (everywhere)?' Allaah says: "They fear their Rubb above them." [9]

This verse refers to the angels who are above us, and above them is our Rubb, the Blessed, the Exalted. Lest anyone be confused, Allaah confirms in this verse that He is above the angels who are the residents of the heavens: "The Compassionate has rose over the 'Arsh." [10]

And: "And verily, your Rubb is Allaah who created the heaven and earth in six days, and then rose over the 'Arsh." [11]

Allaah also says: "Are you sure that He Who is Above the heaven will not cleave the earth beneath you? Or are you sure that He Who is above the heaven will not send against you a stone-charged hurricane." [12]

The renowned exegetes and commentators are agreed that the One Who is above the heaven is none but Allaah Who has rose over His Arsh and is above it in the manner which suits His Majesty.

Those who believe that Allaah is everywhere base their argument on verses such as:"And He is Ilaah in the Heavens and He is Ilaah on the Earth!"

The term, 'Ilaah' is classical Arabic means, 'the worshipped'; thus the meaning of the above verse is, "It is He Who is worshipped in the heaven and worshipped on the earth". It would have been redundant were the verse to speak about the existence of Allaah in the heaven and on the earth, for the term Illah' is an adjective of Allaah, while the pronouns, 'He' in the verse is used in lieu of the name 'Allaah', therefore, when the name 'Allaah' replaces the pronoun 'He', we get the proper meaning of the verse: 'And it is Allaah Who is worshipped in the heaven and on the earth'. But according to the [...] sect who consider the term, 'Ilaah' as 'Allaah', we get the redundant meaning, 'And Allaah is Allaah in the heaven and Allaah is on the earth,' a sentence which is grammatically, linguistically and logically incorrect. Qatadah, a renowned exegete, interpreted this verse as: 'He is worshipped in the heaven and on the earth'.

Imaam al-Aajurri said: 'al-Ilaah, is the worshipped. He is worshipped in the heaven as He is worshipped on the earth.'

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[MinAhlilHadeeth]

:salamext:

Check out these links inshaAllah:

http://calltoislam.com/index.php?opt...=241&Itemid=27

http://www.islamicboard.com/aqeedah/...es-allaah.html

[nasima el ghazi]

mashallah .....someone should clue in athiest,,they are soo lost

[Ghira]

Welcome to the forum. This is to answer a question someone had if Allah can be in this world...Allah (swt) physically cannot be in this earth and present with us. He is only with us by is knowledge and listening to us. Allah is present above the 7 heavens and it will not befit his majesty to come in this earth. He uses messengers and his soldiers (people, wind, other creations, etc) for our benefit and to guide us. To come on this earth it goes beyond his boundaries and law. Just like the one law on earth for us humans is that "An object in motion tends to stay in motion unless an external force is applied to it." This law holds true always and forever. What we call "nature" will be very unbalanced and complete turmoil. God says in the Quran we have "And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice)."This law noted by Newton is one of the laws that help with the balance of 'nature', and should be called a creations of Allah (God). The other law is that He will not come physically to earth because it will completely destroy the earth. Let me share with you the story of Musa (Moses) who asked to just see physically see The Creator (Allah). Here is what happened.

"When Moses came at our appointed time, and his Lord spoke with him, he said, "My Lord, let me look and see You." He said, "You cannot see Me. Look at that mountain; if it stays in its place, then you can see Me." Then, his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain, and this caused it to crumble. Moses fell unconscious. When he came to, he said, "Be You glorified. I repent to You, and I am the most convinced believer." (Quran 7:143)

First, Allah spoke to Moses and said you cannot handle directly looking at me, just look at the mountain instead. He gave a condition if it does not crumble then you can see me. Now just compare a human being to a mountain. A moutain can handle carpet bombs and we by law cannot. That is the condition God gave and the mountain could not handle that and it crumbled and Moses fainted. God knows what would have happened to Moses if he looked directly at his Creator. Now what would happen if God (Allah) is present. That does not happen at all. Not only that the size of Allah is greater than all the heavens and earth put together. I have proof of that in a hadith if anyone want me to share.

Personally, I did feel Allah (swt) was listening to me completely and I was standing before my Creator. I will sort of share the experience with you. The best word to describe what I felt was ALIVE!! I was complete state of gratitude, humility, and felt very humble because I knew I was praying in front of the Creator of heavens and earth. My heart was pounding so fast and so hard I could physically see it pumping and expanding my chest. It was incredible. I was breathing differently and felt my sins being washed. When I went down in sujood (prostration) my whole heart pounded so hard it completely shook my whole body and breathing was even faster because my heart needed more oxygen. It was the best experience of my life and I pray I have it again. I felt ALIVE....Pray with sincerety, with humility, and focus and we may have the experience ...I think the other secret is making this dua often in sujood "Oh turner/changer of the hearts make my heart FIRM upon your way." ameen. God knows best.

[Yanal]

Who are you welcoming sister i am going to read the article later but you said welcome to the forum when you started a thread in GENEREAL

[Yanal]

adding to the reply above i think you were answering something here i am just suggesting or reminding you here's the link might wanan ask their because it is kinda related

here's the link here i am

[Ghira]

adding to the reply above i think you were answering something here i am just suggesting or reminding you here's the link might wanan ask their because it is kinda related

here's the link here i am

They closed it while I was typing that and so I made a new thread because it NEEDED to be cleared...Very important topic in my opinion.

[Yanal]

sorry

[Science101]

Welcome to the forum. This is to answer a question someone had if Allah can be in this world...Allah (swt) physically cannot be in this earth and present with us. He is only with us by is knowledge and listening to us. Allah is present above the 7 heavens and it will not befit his majesty to come in this earth. He uses messengers and his soldiers (people, wind, other creations, etc) for our benefit and to guide us. To come on this earth it goes beyond his boundaries and law. Just like the one law on earth for us humans is that "An object in motion tends to stay in motion unless an external force is applied to it." This law holds true always and forever. What we call "nature" will be very unbalanced and complete turmoil. God says in the Quran we have "And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice)."This law noted by Newton is one of the laws that help with the balance of 'nature', and should be called a creations of Allah (God). The other law is that He will not come physically to earth because it will completely destroy the earth. Let me share with you the story of Musa (Moses) who asked to just see physically see The Creator (Allah). Here is what happened.

"When Moses came at our appointed time, and his Lord spoke with him, he said, "My Lord, let me look and see You." He said, "You cannot see Me. Look at that mountain; if it stays in its place, then you can see Me." Then, his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain, and this caused it to crumble. Moses fell unconscious. When he came to, he said, "Be You glorified. I repent to You, and I am the most convinced believer." (Quran 7:143)

First, Allah spoke to Moses and said you cannot handle directly looking at me, just look at the mountain instead. He gave a condition if it does not crumble then you can see me. Now just compare a human being to a mountain. A moutain can handle carpet bombs and we by law cannot. That is the condition God gave and the mountain could not handle that and it crumbled and Moses fainted. God knows what would have happened to Moses if he looked directly at his Creator. Now what would happen if God (Allah) is present. That does not happen at all. Not only that the size of Allah is greater than all the heavens and earth put together. I have proof of that in a hadith if anyone want me to share.

Personally, I did feel Allah (swt) was listening to me completely and I was standing before my Creator. I will sort of share the experience with you. The best word to describe what I felt was ALIVE!! I was complete state of gratitude, humility, and felt very humble because I knew I was praying in front of the Creator of heavens and earth. My heart was pounding so fast and so hard I could physically see it pumping and expanding my chest. It was incredible. I was breathing differently and felt my sins being washed. When I went down in sujood (prostration) my whole heart pounded so hard it completely shook my whole body and breathing was even faster because my heart needed more oxygen. It was the best experience of my life and I pray I have it again. I felt ALIVE....Pray with sincerety, with humility, and focus and we may have the experience ...I think the other secret is making this dua often in sujood "Oh turner/changer of the hearts make my heart FIRM upon your way." ameen. God knows best.

Thanks Ghira!

I appreciate your going into that much detail. I didn't know about that. And I also appreciate your starting a new thread on the topic. I'm a long time regular on a religion forum here in Massachusetts. There are none who follow Islam who use it. Discussions sometimes lead to this phenomena being used as "proof" that the Christian Jesus, Lord or God is real and is communicating with them. So I started the thread as sort of an experiment to see if followers of Islam experienced the same thing. I already knew that was true but never knew how similar this was. I as carefully as possible worded the questions so that I was not coaxing an answer. Not being specific seems to have lead to a conflict that closed the thread. But like you, I think this needs to be cleared up. Starting a new thread so we can start over again is a great idea. Hopefully the moderator will see value in this discussion. I would also like to invite anyone from the forum that I'm a regular on to participate if they want to. I can bring there questions here for them if they have any. There are a couple of people there who are looking for what other people believe in that might find the discussion that has already taken place to be fascinating. Not many realize how similar Islam is to Christianity.

I also started a science paper to sum up what I'm discovering. It's not to be published anywhere, will only be read in this forum and the one that I'm from where I mentioned the possibility of writing a short science paper that uses scientific data to find what I call the "Adam and Eve moment" through science. There is an event recorded in our genome that might have led to a sudden appearance of humans 4-6 million years ago from the fusion of two ancestral chromosomes into one. Science is still investigating what that might have done to our morphology but I suspect that might be where humans first appeared.

For all of us to gain experience writing a science paper, I reported what I learned in this forum to them as a science paper. I'll post it, and the introduction, here too.

1399. Our Experiment, Paper
by Science101, 8/23/07 2:12 ET
Hope you don't mind me writing the results of the experiment mentioned towards the end of 1396.1.1. "Response Back 2 U" as a science paper. I thought it would be interesting to see it described in a standard scientific format. If we ever work on a science paper concerning the "Adam and Eve moment" or whatever then this will make a good way to visualize the challenge.
I did not extract all of the applicable quotes from the other forum I used as a comparison due to my wanting to ask permission for those quoted in entirety out of respect for them. There was one small portion of a response that more or less said it all, that I did use. In my opinion reading the thread in the other forum will now make for an excellent mirror for seeing ourselves in. And I must add that it starts off with a very nice message that I hope others get the same good vibes from.

Anyway, here's the paper:

EUPHORIC PHENOMENA USED BY CHRISTIANS AS EVIDENCE OF JESUS OR GOD

By Science101, 8/20/2007

ABSTRACT

In this experiment we examine a phenomena reported by Christians on the MassLive Religion Forum which leads those who experience this to the conclusion that they are in the presence of the Christian Lord, Jesus or God.

INTRODUCTION [/b]

The phenomena being investigated occurs during Christian religious ceremony, prayer, and during the course of their day. It is a euphoric sensation sometimes accompanied in ceremony by arm waving and weeping. In a few churches dancing with venomous snakes is used as evidence that they are being protected by this presence.

Along with scripture this phenomena is often used as evidence or "proof" that the Christian Lord, Jesus and/or God is real. Many use this experience as "proof" that their belief system is the only one that leads to "truth" or "salvation". In this paper we primarily examine this part of the phenomena by comparing what Christians report to followers of Islam report.

EXPERIMENT

A new topic was started in a popular Islamic internet forumwww.IslamicBoard.com which asked the participants the questions "I was wondering if Allah's presence can be felt during worship. If true then what does it feel like?"

After two very sincere responses answered the questions the following two other questions were asked "Only question I now have is how do you know it's from Allah? Some will say it is not. How would someone like me explain to them that it truly is from Allah?"

This is the specific thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ence-felt.html

RESULTS AND DISCUSSION

The IslamicBoard forum addressed the questions for almost a day then the thread was closed due to concern that the way the questions were worded they could cause some to get the impression that anyone who experiences this phenomena are in the presence of Allah (God). This is a brief excerpt of that discussion.

>>> There are many baseless beliefs, whereby some people even go into trance like states, where they claim they are "feeling Allaah's presence". <<<

This experiment showed that Islam does produce the same euphoric phenomena reported by Christians. The conflict that led to the closing of the thread further showed that some followers of Islam are like some followers of Christianity, convinced that not all who experience this phenomena are experiencing the one true Allah/God.

ACKNOWLEDGMENT

The forum members of MassLive Religion Forum http://www.masslive.com/forums/religion/ and Islamic Board General forum http://www.islamicboard.com/general/ provided valuable discussion that made this experiment possible.

It might be a silly thing to do it this way but I like showing others how to do good science, so I wrote a brief science paper on it. I hope it helps generate constructive discussion.

Thanks again Ghira for starting a new thread, and thank you to everyone who answered the one I started. :happy:

[Ghira]

Hello there...interesting experiment. I could not completely understand why you would perform it but it does still interest me.

I am not sure if you completely understand how the system of Islam works. Whenever we say something on a topic of Islam we have to have proof for it. We have both belief and proof. We don't go on blind following. For example, you can prove that Qur'an is not the word of man and it is from God. The way you do that is to find an error or contradiction in the Qur'an, but you cannot because it is perfect. These are the words of our Creator. Try to find an error. It gives a challenge to produce a book like it or even a chapter like it. No one has completed the challenge successfully for over 1400 years. If that is not convincing enough dump all the sacred books including Bible, Quran in the ocean. Then tell the scholars of Islam and Christianity to reproduce the same exact book in original form. How many versions would the Christians have?? The Muslims would have one version that is completely error proof because over 9 million people have memorized the book in its entirety. That is amazing for a book that is 1400 years old. Whenever I make a statement or answer a question it must be backed up with proof because Allah and His Messenger knows best. If even that does not amaze you look at the scientific miracles of the Quran that major non-Muslim scientists have agreed that it cannot be known 1400 years ago. Although some Muslims may say their own opinion and neglect that fact of proof that is what the religion teaches. This prevents innovation, confusion, and misunderstanding from generation to generation. I am not saying we only except what can only be proven but I am saying both strong belief and solid proof go hand and hand. As we know, this world is a test for us to separate those who believe in the unseen from those who reject it....Allah knows best.

[Science101]

Hello there...interesting experiment. I could not completely understand why you would perform it but it does still interest me.

Part of the reason is simply because I love science, doing experiments that show how things work.

I am not sure if you completely understand how the system of Islam works.

I am still learning about it. That is why I am here.

Whenever we say something on a topic of Islam we have to have proof for it. We have both belief and proof.

In science, the word "proof" does not apply because all conclusions are "tentative". (Not fully worked out, concluded, or agreed on. Uncertain) We would call that "evidence", but I know what you are trying to say.

We don't go on blind following. For example, you can prove that Qur'an is not the word of man and it is from God. The way you do that is to find an error or contradiction in the Qur'an, but you cannot because it is perfect.

I'm now wondering how an error can be detected. For example, there are supposed to be 7 layers of Heaven. In science, you would need repeatable empirical (derived from observation, experience, or experiment). In this case any scientist, anywhere in the world, would need to be able to somehow visit (could also use a telescope or other trusted instrument) and all of them would every time find 7 layers. Without empirical evidence that there are 7 layers, I can't see how you could know for sure.

Try to find an error.

I cannot, because I don't know how an error could be detected.

It gives a challenge to produce a book like it or even a chapter like it.

The Bible has Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, Moses, with minor differences but still the same stories. Why don't they count as "like it"?

How many versions would the Christians have??

There are already many translations. Some of that due to it being possible to translate scriptures many ways. I was told that some of the parts of the Quran are from the same sources that the Bible came from.

The Muslims would have one version that is completely error proof because over 9 million people have memorized the book in its entirety.

Isn't there two versions? Someone else told me that there are two translations, one is less violent than the other.

If even that does not amaze you look at the scientific miracles of the Quran that major non-Muslim scientists have agreed that it cannot be known 1400 years ago.

Now you have me curious for examples of this.

I am not saying we only except what can only be proven but I am saying both strong belief and solid proof go hand and hand.

I just thought of a test for this that interests me a great deal. As you might already know I am looking for empirical evidence showing how the creator (whatever form this creator takes and can include natural forces of nature) made us. I know that the Quran mentions breathing life into clay, the Bible says dust although both are made of small mineral particles. But that does not explain how grains of clay undergo the necessary chemical reactions for it to become alive. Is there empirical evidence in the Quran that would allow a scientist to test this to see if it is true. That would certainly impress me.

[NoName55]

Can Allah be present in Earth

can the maker of a tennis ball get in to it? Does he need to get in to it to see it's working? to see what it feels like to be struck?

[Woodrow]

:w:

The link to this thread was given earlier in this thread. I am repeating it here as it may have been over looked. I belive it is worth checking out if you have not done so.

http://www.islamicboard.com/tawheed-...es-allaah.html


Especially this post from that thread.

http://www.islamicboard.com/tawheed-...tml#post664745

[Ghira]

I just thought of a test for this that interests me a great deal. As you might already know I am looking for empirical evidence showing how the creator (whatever form this creator takes and can include natural forces of nature) made us. I know that the Quran mentions breathing life into clay, the Bible says dust although both are made of small mineral particles. But that does not explain how grains of clay undergo the necessary chemical reactions for it to become alive. Is there empirical evidence in the Quran that would allow a scientist to test this to see if it is true. That would certainly impress me.

I understand what you are saying you want empirical evidence...I am a Biology/Psychology major so I know what you are trying to study and I have to tell you that there is NO empirical evidence that a Creator exists. What we have in this earth are signs and evidence that there is a Creator but you cannot test to see if there is a Creator. That is what empirical evidence means right, you test it over and over again and you get the same result each time. I believe that in all science including modern psychology they focus more on empirical evidence and you want to put that into religion. You can test certain laws that God has created for human beings to be beneficial such as law of not drinking alcohol, or adultery (found both in Christianity and Islam) using statistics. With proving that there is a Creator of the heavens and earth you can only use simple logic and reasoning. Here is some of the examples that the Quran uses that are simple logic for us to understand that there is one Creator....There is countless verses and I hope the moderators or other people in the forum can help me out...Here goes.

Allah wants us to ponder over the creations including your ownselves many times in the Quran....For example this simple one.

Suratul Waqia (I suggest you read the whole sure)

"We created you. Will you then admit the truth?
Have ye seen that which you emit (semen)?
Do you create it or are We the Creator?"

It is a retorical question but makes a human think that I came from a drop of semen which carries all my genetic traits...now who created this us humans, evolutionary CHANCE, or my Creator...very retorical question indeed.

Now look at the other example of your origin in the Quran
In surah Yaseen

"Does not man see that We have created him from the small seed? Then lo! he is an open adversary."
"And he strikes out a likeness for Us and forgets his own creation. Says he: Who will give life to the bones when they are rotten? "
"Say: He will give life to them Who brought them into existence at first, and He is well versed in every kind of creation"

In this part of Quran it reminds me of a person who relies so much on science and evidence that could be tested that he forgets what he originally came from, a microscopic sperm drop, then he proudly says how could my bones be brought back to life. There is shorter verse that explains the exact concept maybe someone could help me find that verse. It says the second creation (resurrection) is easier than the first...to me that is an obvious statement.

I am sort of getting side tracked....I am just giving you examples that use simple logic to help us understand the signs that there is a creator. The next evidence that is God exists is when God says in Quran. You innately have an understanding of who God is. God is perfect, does not need anything from what he has created (self-sufficient), Creates and never is created. All these attributes are emphasized in Quran. One of the MAIN themes of the Quran is WHO is your Creator.

Another example if there were more than one God beside the Almighty what would happen:

Surah Anbiya God says:
"If there were therein gods beside Allah, then verily both (the heavens and the earth) had been disordered. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, from all that they ascribe (unto Him)."

There would be no set decision on anything, and the whole universe would be confused and disorderly because one God is supposed to be supreme and make decisions, set laws. One God decides to create something and another God does not like the idea and wants to create something else. No order at all. God is not disorderly. There is sooo many other examples I may post later but just want to hear your thoughts so far. Finally, I would like to say that God, the day of judgement, Angels are all part of the unseen world that can not tested if they in fact exists. You need to have true faith in that and you can accomplish that by pondering about your own creation, where you will return to after death, and thinking about the world around you. Obviously reading the translation of the Quran will help you and I achieve the conviction. Thank you for reading. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.