Why Closing Gitmo Is Not Necessarily a Solution

[snakelegs]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IF29Df01.html

the article is long, but here's the beginning:
Pakistan to help as the US's jailer
By Syed Saleem Shahzad

ISLAMABAD - With the George W Bush administration under pressure to close the US detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, Pakistan is readying to step in to help its ally in the "war on the terror".

Both US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates have suggested that President Bush transfer Guantanamo's detainees to the United States, saying the facility is undercutting US foreign-policy efforts. Should Bush not do so, it is likely that the joint military prison and interrogation
camp will be closed by the Democrat-controlled Congress. Vice President Dick Cheney's office and the Justice Department oppose having Guantanamo prisoners moved to the US.

[Keltoi]

No doubt those they have captured and those they will capture will be housed somewhere, and I doubt it will be the U.S. This is one of those "be careful what you wish for" situations, because regardless of the gossip and myth about Gitmo, the International Red Cross was given access to the prison in Cuba. I doubt they would have the same luxury in Pakistan. Plus, I doubt the U.S. would trust Pakistan to house "VIP" prisoners like Khalid Muhammed.

[snakelegs]

yeah - i thought all along the call for closing guantanamo was pretty simplistic. now people will simply vanish....maybe forever. the torture won't stop - it may get worse and no one will ever need to know. and there will probably be less world pressure on the u.s.
of course we've already been doing "extraordinary renditions" as an alternative.
there will be americans in charge at these prisons. i suppose they will put the "prize catches" somewhere they can be sure of having control over.
i imagine the pakistanis will be delighted that 2 of them are going to be on their soil. :skeleton:

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

Well, we have prsions-by-proxy in Eastern Europe (if they're still open, after being exposed), North Africa, East Africa, Afghanistan, now maybe Pakistan, US bases abroad, floating ships, etc.

The thing is, many of those people are actually innocent, and are still being held without charges. There is no "actionable intelligence" gained from them.

Many innocents who've been repatriated to their homelands have been subsequently released, without facing charges nor Jail time by the security services.

You can't Just keep arresting and imprisoning innocent people. People who voice differing opiniona (and claim that they're closet terrorists, sympatizers, or future terrorists).

Even if they were to close Gitmo, and ship the prisoners to foreign lands, the hatred of America will still intensify.

If people think that by not having prisons here and shifting the responsibility on other nations, that this will clear our name and absolve us of this barbaric crime, they are sadly mistaken.

Everyone will still know (other than most US citizens) that the US is still pulling the strings from behind the curtain. And that will not be forgotten nor forgiven.

How stupid does this government think foreigners or the Islamic World, are?

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[Keltoi]

:sl:/Peace To All

Well, we have prsions-by-proxy in Eastern Europe (if they're still open, after being exposed), North Africa, East Africa, Afghanistan, now maybe Pakistan, US bases abroad, floating ships, etc.

The thing is, many of those people are actually innocent, and are still being held without charges. There is no "actionable intelligence" gained from them.

Many innocents who've been repatriated to their homelands have been subsequently released, without facing charges nor Jail time by the security services.

You can't Just keep arresting and imprisoning innocent people. People who voice differing opiniona (and claim that they're closet terrorists, sympatizers, or future terrorists).

Even if they were to close Gitmo, and ship the prisoners to foreign lands, the hatred of America will still intensify.

If people think that by not having prisons here and shifting the responsibility on other nations, that this will clear our name and absolve us of this barbaric crime, they are sadly mistaken.

Everyone will still know (other than most US citizens) that the US is still pulling the strings from behind the curtain. And that will not be forgotten nor forgiven.

How stupid does this government think foreigners or the Islamic World, are?

Just adds to the reasoning behind keeping Gitmo open for business, it won't matter anyway.

[NobleMuslimUK]

Scum bags like Bush, Blair, Cheney, Rumsfeld need to be held there, and tortured for the middle east holocaust and war crimes.

[Joe98]

And that will not be forgotten nor forgiven.

We know this already. And George Bush does too.

Thats why Bush says its better that the suicide bombers attack US soldiers in Baghdad instead of in New York city.

If the US pulls out of Iraq the suicide bombers will move to NY city.

-

[NobleMuslimUK]

We know this already. And George Bush does too.

Thats why Bush says its better that the suicide bombers attack US soldiers in Baghdad instead of in New York city.

If the US pulls out of Iraq the suicide bombers will move to NY city.

-

OH really, Joe you have no clue of what your talking about.

[Zman]

We know this already. And George Bush does too.

Thats why Bush says its better that the suicide bombers attack US soldiers in Baghdad instead of in New York city.

If the US pulls out of Iraq the suicide bombers will move to NY city.

-

Iraq had no terrorism problems, no car bombings, no suicide attacks, before the US/Uk illegal invaded that hapless nation.

Our invasion created all these problems.

The so-called terroism threat and suicide attacks that were alleged to have have materialized from Iraq, would never have materialized from there, since there was no terrorism nor Al Qaeda, there before.

Now that we have created such conditions:terrorism, car bombings, suicide attacks, sectarianism, death squads, and allowed Al Qaeda to establish firm roots there, don't complain when average Iraqi's retaliate and we do get hit.

We planted their seeds of misery. We destroyed their nation. Death squads were established under our watch. Every Iraqi family has suffered a loss of a family member, Job, education, security, peace of mind, etc. Thanks to the US/UK governments.

So, expect blowback.

We reserved the right to retaliate against Afghanistan, after being attacked on 9/11.

The Iraqi's had nothing to do with 9/11 nor terrorism. We attacked them without any provocation.

They also have every right to retaliate.

I definitely don't want that to happen to us, but I do understand if they chose to do so...

[Bittersteel]

from what I have heard from some Pakistanis Gitmo is nothing compared to the facilities the CIA got in Poland and in other places in Europe.

[north_malaysian]

If the US pulls out of Iraq the suicide bombers will move to NY city.

-

Not all suicide bombers live in Iraq.

[snakelegs]

from what I have heard from some Pakistanis Gitmo is nothing compared to the facilities the CIA got in Poland and in other places in Europe.

yes - that's why i think this will even be worse. at least there is some world awareness on gitmo - and even at that, u.s. is using torture. if they close it no one will know where the people are - they could disappear forever.

[Dahir]

How was Gitmo a solution in the first place? Prisoners of war for 5 years? Where's the American Judicial system? And shouldn't the non-American prisoners be sent home for proper justice?

It seems that we spend too little proper time examining the efficiency of Gitmo.

[MTAFFI]

How long has Hezbollah been holding the Israeli soldier captive? Who ever heard of beheading contractors with dull knives? Who ever heard of executing groups of people without trial and either burying them in shallow graves or leaving them to rot on the side of the road? Who ever heard of really any of the things we are seeing today? It is all disgusting and pointless.... This war will stop nothing, these terrorist will not stop the american political or war machine, it is pointless... The sooner people start to realize this the better we could all be, closing Gitmo solves nothing and neither does complaining about it. We are at war, people will be held as POW and that is what is happening at Gitmo and abroad

:grumbling

[Keltoi]

I think the problem is that some of these people, I have no way of knowing the exact number, were picked up in terrorism raids, not necessarily on the battlefield. That has posed the largest problem for the U.S. government, as they have no proper procedure created to charge and sentence these people without giving them the rights of American citizens. I don't know what the answer is, but the Supreme Court will be the deciding factor in the end.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

whys pakistan joining in... :(

[Re.TiReD]

People are being tortured...innocent people...and Gitmo shouldnt be closed? :skeleton: that Busharraf is a fool :skeleton:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

People are being tortured...innocent people...and Gitmo shouldnt be closed? :skeleton: that Busharraf is a fool :skeleton:

yeah... seriously, deserves a thappor..

whys he leader of pak anyway..

[Re.TiReD]

Because every single leader will be able to show his 'follwers' or supporters at least SOME good that he is doing...weatha thats by opposing whats happening at the masjids in Pakistan or whatever..in any case these small things that Musharraf does do right manage to keep his supporters happy...hence keeping his foolishness outa the limelight...I think it kinda makes sense too...coz nobody's ever gonna be perfect. Tho they should at least give somebody else a try :skeleton:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ ye thats tru... in my mind i think up so many people who would make such good leaders but then i start thinking "what if they WERE in that position"

i mean remember umar ibn al-khattab when he heard that someone wanted to make his son the next caliph, he RADHIALLAHU ANHU stated,

"no by Allah i do not wish for another person from my family to undergo such a huge burden" or something like that, because he was worried for ibn umars imaan...

[Re.TiReD]

hmm...unfortunately not everybody has imaan to that perfection :( I dont think anybody would willfully do something that would injure or hurt the masses (well maybe they would :X ) but everybody has their reasons and everybody thinks THEY are right and there are no two ways about it...:skeleton: Allahu A'lam....maybe its up to us normal ppz to voice our say... *sigh*

[Bittersteel]

How long has Hezbollah been holding the Israeli soldier captive? Who ever heard of beheading contractors with dull knives? Who ever heard of executing groups of people without trial and either burying them in shallow graves or leaving them to rot on the side of the road? Who ever heard of really any of the things we are seeing today? It is all disgusting and pointless.... This war will stop nothing, these terrorist will not stop the american political or war machine, it is pointless... The sooner people start to realize this the better we could all be, closing Gitmo solves nothing and neither does complaining about it. We are at war, people will be held as POW and that is what is happening at Gitmo and abroad

then kindly tell your ambassadors and South Asian affairs secretary Mr.Boucher to stop lecturing us about human rights.Pleasssssssssssssssssse?
we are tired of your hypocrisy.don't say they are not provided this and that because they are not citizens,enemy combatants,etc.they are lame excuses.
and since you brought Hezbollah and Israel ,let me ask how long has Israel has kept Palestinian prisoners?even innocent ones?

we Muslims have got weak leaders too.Like Musharraf who will practically handover thousands of Pakistanis branded as terrorist suspects if he is promised a thousand main battle tanks,weapon systems,aircraft,etc.

[MTAFFI]

then kindly tell your ambassadors and South Asian affairs secretary Mr.Boucher to stop lecturing us about human rights.Pleasssssssssssssssssse?

I would if I thought it would make some kind of difference

we are tired of your hypocrisy.don't say they are not provided this and that because they are not citizens,enemy combatants,etc.they are lame excuses.
and since you brought Hezbollah and Israel ,let me ask how long has Israel has kept Palestinian prisoners?even innocent ones?

The hypocrisy runs both ways then. I am not disputing that Gitmo is probably a violation of human rights, I dont dispute that torture probably goes on, and I dont dispute Israel holding prisoners, however this is a thread about Gitmo, and people are always so ready to be fired up about it as if their own "people" or societies dont do they exact same thing. My point was to point out your blatant hypocrisy.

As far as your classification of enemy combatants and not citizens, I personally dont think they are lame, and I am sure a large number of people would agree with that. I never heard you complaining about Gitmo when Muslims werent prisoners there, then it was just a place for whoever, but now you are outraged. What would you have the US do about enemy combatants? Slice and dice them as the guerrilla fighters do, fine with me, turn about it fair play, but dont let me hear you for 1 second complaining about how that would be a violation of human rights.

we Muslims have got weak leaders too.Like Musharraf who will practically handover thousands of Pakistanis branded as terrorist suspects if he is promised a thousand main battle tanks,weapon systems,aircraft,etc.

yes, the mid east has weak corrupted leaders who sell their people out every day, they let their people live in poverty while they defecate on gold toilets. Why dont we start a thread about it and what is wrong with the people that they cant get it fixed.

[snakelegs]

How was Gitmo a solution in the first place? Prisoners of war for 5 years? Where's the American Judicial system? And shouldn't the non-American prisoners be sent home for proper justice?

It seems that we spend too little proper time examining the efficiency of Gitmo.

it wasn't.
but, many people have called for the closing of gitmo, and it's become almost a slogan - like that would solve the problem of the injustice.
but i think that closing it and shipping the prisoners to all kinds of other countries (like we already do with "extraordinary renditions") may be even worse.

[snakelegs]

whys pakistan joining in... :(

do you think they had a choice?