Proving The Existence Of Allah (swt)to An Atheist

[Pk_#2]

In the name of God the One, The Greatest!

Peace be upon those who follow guidance,

PROVING THE EXISTENCE OF ALLAH (SWT) TO AN ATHEIST
by Dr. Zakir Naik

CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.

LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.

Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.

QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.
Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?

THEORY OF PROBABILITY In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.

QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.

SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).
Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"
[Al-Quran 41:53]

[IbnAbdulHakim]

the quran is enough proof, if you need more then that then your just blind ;o

[Pk_#2]

Ano buh Atiests dun read the Quran,

Not all of them inay. Peace.

[ranma1/2]

ｗｅｌｌ　ｆｉｒｓｔ　ｉｖｅ　ｌｉｓｔｅｎｅｄ　ｔｏ　ｈｉｓ　ｌｅｃｔｕｒｅｓ　ｂｅｆｏ ｒｅ　ａｎｄ 　ｈｅ　ｓｔｉｌｌ　ｓｅｅｍｓ　ｔｏ　ｂｅ　ｕｓｉｎｇ　ｍａｎｙ　ｓｔａｎｄａｒｄ　ｌｏ ｇｉｃａｌ　 ｆａｌｌａｃｙｓ．

PROVING THE EXISTENCE OF ALLAH (SWT) TO AN ATHEIST
by Dr. Zakir Naik
CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST …….

Ｈｅ　ｓｅｅｍｓ　ｔｏ　ｃｏｍｐｌｅｔｌｙ　ｌｅａｖｅ　ｍｕｓｌｉｍｓ　ｏｕｔ　ｏｆ　ｔ ｈｉｓ，　ｎ ｏｔ　ｔｏ　ｍｅｎｔｉｏｎ　ｔｈｅ　ａｌｒｅａｄｙ　ｐａｔｒｉａｒｃａｌ　ｍｉｎｄｓｅｔ ．At least he admits that it is good to question “unless you’re a Muslim apparently.”

….The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ -…. now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.
I soooo want to thank him to for being an atheist. After all he disbelieves in all other gods.. One more to go and you will be a strong atheists. He also does not tell us what the right concept of god is. Perhaps he doesn’t know.

LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?"
Well I think he should give us his def since it is his god that he is trying to convert us to. there are many defs out their so you tell me what your version of god is and ill tell you wether I believe in it or not. So far with all the version ive been given I am still an atheists in all gods. The typical monotheistic god tends to be “perfect”, all knowing, all present all good etc… as well as invisible and the such.

….
If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam….

I strongly believe that a religion is reflected in the people. While I don’t see muslims as a whole as being oppressive of women and such or similar things as listed above, the fact is that certain muslims act in such horrible ways as listed above. I would think the right religion wouldn’t have such problems.

…..
QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE
A couple of problems with this part.
Atheist and scientists demand evidence not proof. And I would suggest he and others read Richard dawkins the blind watch maker. But to just cover it a little bit. Watches are not alive. They do not reproduce. They are removed from evolution. The entire process of our formation is explained and accepted in the scientific community by evolution.
Not to mention the general fallacy of everything that was causes we caused by an intelligent force.


SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: ..

And as I and others have stated before, there is nothing special about the so called scientific facts in the quran. Any actual knowledge was already known at the time. The majority of the “science” is not science but words or phrases taken out of context.
And this includes hadiths as well since those are often mentioned as “scientific miracles”.

and just to show how a "watch" could evolve naturally if it were organic..
http://www.videosift.com/video/Evolu...ind-Watchmaker
THEORY OF PROBABILITY

… I almost thought he was doing a pascas wager argument. But I read on anyway. He says that .

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth…... The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical
This knowledge was known at the time. And heck even if there was no knowledge of the earth being a sphere at the time, if you make enough guesses it is likely at somepoint you might get something right. And of course the Koran is wrong many times on aspects of science.


Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water.
Wow no reading into this. Eh? Even kids know you need water to live. How many people in ancient times thought, I don’t need water to live. No one could have known we were made from water.. I mean its not like we drink it daily. of course we are not made out of just water. It is odd though that it also says we were made out of clay/dirt/earth... Hmm. last time i checked i was made out of flesh...
….

CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN
I disagree. As stated there is nothing special about the quran. No special unknown science at the time. And just for the sake of DeAd lets say there are. There are other explanations as to why there could be unknown knowledge.
“aliens for instance, a different god… etc..”
QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE
He is right, it is not a book of science.
He says he provides scientific evidence that quran was divinely inspired but provides none.

SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD
Im not to sure what he was trying to say here. Perhaps argument from authority??

The typical god idea is not falsifiable and science can not touch it. Also it is very difficult to prove a negative.
Please prove that the GFSM, or the IPU does not exists.

We can look at things and say based on the evidence this and this does not likely exists.
And based on the evidence I do not believe in any of the gods presented to me.

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[ranma1/2]

A good example of blind faith.

the quran is enough proof, if you need more then that then your just blind ;o

[glo]

I had to laugh at this sweeping statement:

... because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers ...

I mean, what evidence does Dr. Zakir Naik base that kind of statement on? :?
And could the same be said about the Muslim population? :rollseyes

Starting with such unsustantiated generalisations, doesn't exactly give the rest of the article much credibility ...

Peace

[guyabano]

Nice reading, but I guess, you will never bring up proof enough to an Atheist that God ever exist.
Ok, Muslims will say, Quaran is proof enough! Hmmm, but where is then this proof of the Quaran?

All what I noticed is, that across all religions, people are asked 'just to believe'. That's it! But how can I beleive, if I cannot see anything neither touch anything? It's always fascinating me, how millions of persons 'blindly' believe in somehting, which doesn't exist.

[nevesirth]

an atheist is someone who knows tht GOD exists but tries everyday of his life to deny this fact. he brainwashes himself to think he believes tht there is no GOD. so proving the existence of ALLAH[swt] to such person might be a waste of precious time because the atheist is aware of this but chose to live in denial!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nevesirth]

Nice reading, but I guess, you will never bring up proof enough to an Atheist that God ever exist.
Ok, Muslims will say, Quaran is proof enough! Hmmm, but where is then this proof of the Quaran?

All what I noticed is, that across all religions, people are asked 'just to believe'. That's it! But how can I beleive, if I cannot see anything neither touch anything? It's always fascinating me, how millions of persons 'blindly' believe in somehting, which doesn't exist.

u might not believe in the creator as GOD or ALLAH[swt], but it will be foolish of someone not to believe there is a higher force tht caused existence to be. u might not believe in the concept in of which religions potray the supreme but u cant deny the fact tht there is an ultimate force in control of existence. u dint create urself neither did any man create the earth, so how do uy explain the coming to being of the world?

[nevesirth]

i think being atheist is just being childish.my advise to all atheists is tht they should grow up. u cant go on denying something u knw deep within urself exists, it doesnt make u seem tough or intelligent, it only makes u seen dull and ignorant and CHILDISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i did not make that statement arrogant to the fact that the aethiests will completely deny it if not ridicule it.

But when a book comes to the most perfect human in the most eloquent style answering each and every problem of life and is still rejected then i honestly find a problem with the person.

Also i've grown a strong dislike for mathematics and science to always be shown to prove the validity of the quran, if anything this weakens my imaan! im not even kidding, anything Allah has revealed is far superior to anything humans can ever discover.


it is a fact that no book has stood the test of time other then the Quran Majeed. Allahu Akbar

[nevesirth]

A good example of blind faith.

i guess u think u were created by ur father and mother? did ur dad also create the world? or was it ur great grandpa who created the universe? i see, it must be ur uncle providing the air u breathe everyday. its better to follow a faith blindly than to be an atheist.

[guyabano]

i think being atheist is just being childish.my advise to all atheists is tht they should grow up. u cant go on denying something u knw deep within urself exists, it doesnt make u seem tough or intelligent, it only makes u seen dull and ignorant and CHILDISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

well, I don't know who act childish here?! The way how you express yourself doesn't show up of much maturity.
And besides, I find your words rather insulting and narrow minded, that's why I will comment more as it would be a waste of time.

[guyabano]

it is a fact that no book has stood the test of time other then the Quran Majeed. Allahu Akbar

Can you proove that? I would like to know

[nevesirth]

well, I don't know who act childish here?! The way how you express yourself doesn't show up of much maturity.
And besides, I find your words rather insulting and narrow minded, that's why I will comment more as it would be a waste of time.

yeah? i dont need u to comment anymore cuz u knw wht im saying is true, theres no need prolonging the issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Can you proove that? I would like to know

why dont you research on it and let me know instead? :)

[MuhammadRizan]

salam.

i'm wondering, what actually an atheist arguments are?

1-Do not believe God existence at all?
2-Do not agree with religion?

[guyabano]

yeah? i dont need u to comment anymore cuz u knw wht im saying is true, theres no need prolonging the issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally a wise word from you. Don't know about topics, so don't speak

[Skywalker]

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

Well it might be true for some, but I think the majority don't even think about (in depth) whether there is a God or not because they don't have to. They live in secular societies where there is no connection between God and life, therefore why even wonder about something that you don't even need to think about? Just go with the flow of life, stick to what society tells you, enjoy worldly pleasures and you're ok. I guess the only thing that makes people think about God is death. Where do you go when you die, when you can't depend on society anymore? Does your consciousness go to a higher plane and await judgement for your actions in this world, or does it simply cease to exist?

For me, I don't know exactly what I would say to an atheist to try to get them to open their eyes. I mean you can talk about planetary alignments, animals and ecosystems, cell and DNA replication, facial uniqueness, brain anatomy, etc, etc, etc. all you want, and they might still tell you that it's all one big coincidence. I guess it's just a matter of whether Allah wants to open their eyes to the truth or not. Sub7an-Allah.

[guyabano]

salam.

i'm wondering, what actually an atheist arguments are?

1-Do not believe God existence at all?
2-Do not agree with religion?



Yahhh..just great! Dr Zakir Naik also have a funny eyebrows so hear me people of the world!! don't bother to read his work..+o(

at least Ranma and Gubayano read this article.

Just to clarify one thing out: I never said, I'm an Atheist, or at least tell me, where I mentionned that!

Religion is one thing, believing in something/someone ist another thing.

I just refuse to believe in something which simply doesn't exist. Curiously, we can proove the existance of bones of a fauna (like dinosaures) which lived millions of years ago. Even the Egyptians with Pyramids, the Chinese with the great wall were able to show 5000 years ago of their existance, but from this Jesus/Mohammed stuff, I can see nothing. It's all just hear and say.

So far...

If some like to believe that, well it's their own right. The thread asked an opinion, I gave one, so no need to insult me, if my opinion differ from yours, specially directed to nevesirth

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Religion is one thing, believing in something/someone ist another thing.

Definitions of religion on the Web:

a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Religion—sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system—is commonly defined as belief concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine, and the moral codes, practices and institutions associated with such belief. In its broadest sense some have defined it as the sum total of answers given to explain humankind's relationship with the universe. In the course of the development of religion, it has taken a huge number of forms in various cultures and individuals. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

A framework of beliefs relating to supernatural or superhuman beings or forces that transcend the everyday material world.
www.modernhumanorigins.com/r.html

a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power.
oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth370/gloss.html

generally a belief in a deity and practice of worship, action, and/or thought related to that deity. Loosely, any specific system of code of ethics, values, and belief.
www.carm.net/atheism/terms.htm

believing is something is what religion is all about...

[Malaikah]

A good example of blind faith.

So using ones intellect to come to a conclusion is blind faith?:rollseyes

Starting with such unsustantiated generalisations, doesn't exactly give the rest of the article much credibility ...

That isn't very nice. He said many not all.

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam.

Just to clarify one thing out: I never said, I'm an Atheist, or at least tell me, where I mentionned that!

actually i'm not referring you;-), the questions are general for any atheist here,

i ask because the topic is "Proving The Existence Of Allah (swt)to An Atheist"....

and i wanna add.

3-what kind of evidence or proof that atheist looking for or what kind of evidence or proof they can truly accept?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

3-what kind of evidence or proof that atheist looking for or what kind of evidence or proof they can truly accept?

they want to see/feel/touch/smell/hear Allah.

they basically await the dajjal... laa hawla walaa quwwata illah billah.l...

[Skywalker]

Even the Egyptians with Pyramids, the Chinese with the great wall were able to show 5000 years ago of their existance, but from this Jesus/Mohammed stuff, I can see nothing. It's all just hear and say.

Well that's the thing...it's called "faith". You might not have the kind of conventional proof that you're looking for, old bones and all, but I see proof of God's existance all around me all the time.

I think it's also worth mentioning that you don't have to dig into the earth to look for remnants of the past know that God exists, but to look inside yourself and find the part of you that logically, emotionally, and instinctively knows that God exists and acknowledges His guidance to mankind.

For example, let's say you live in a society where it's OK to kill (truth be told it's not a society that would exist for long) and then someone cames along and tells you that it's not. Wouldn't you be sort of 'called home' by that? Wouldn't you know that that was the truth as soon as you heard it? You might reject the notion and refuse to change, but the truth would at least be known to you, even though you might not be able to prove it.

Just to clarify one thing out: I never said, I'm an Atheist, or at least tell me, where I mentionned that!

Just out of curiosity, why don't you put anything down under "way of life"?

[saira-k]

believing is something is what religion is all about...

true!

[Gator]

Salam.



actually i'm not referring you;-), the questions are general for any atheist here,

i ask because the topic is "Proving The Existence Of Allah (swt)to An Atheist"....

and i wanna add.

3-what kind of evidence or proof that atheist looking for or what kind of evidence or proof they can truly accept?

Hello.

To your first question (from the previous post) I think the definition of atheist is not believing in god/gods, which is what I believe.

As for question 3, I don't think and proof would be forthcoming, but I'd like a god concept that seems to fit what I see in the world around me. That would be a good start. As to proof, something miraculous would make me tip towards believing that there is a god out there.

Thanks.

[glo]

Originally Posted by glo
Starting with such unsustantiated generalisations, doesn't exactly give the rest of the article much credibility ...

That isn't very nice. He said many not all.

Well, it's still an unsubstantiated statement ...

Actually, what he is doing is using a psychological ploy to get his target audience's (atheists) attention: by attaching to them the positive statement that they are to be congratulated for 'not blindly believing the religion of their fathers, as the majority of people do'. That makes the target audience more likely to listen and continue reading ...

I bet my bottom dollar that his address to Christians (or followers of other faiths) would go something like:
'Normally, when I meet a follower of religion X, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because unlike atheists you understand God's existance, and you desire to follow him. An atheist, on the other hand, is a long way away from such insights, as he uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.'

I am only guessing, of course, but this is clearly psychology in action! :D

Please don't be offended, Malaikah. I was not criticising Dr. Zakir Naik's article (I couldn't possibly, because I didn't read it all) - I merely commented on his clever (and, if you don't mind me saying, somewhat manipulative) introduction to the article.
I am sure he is not the only one to use such strategies to attract his target audience. It just tickled me, that's all! :)

Peace


Peace

[Muezzin]

This kind of thing belongs in Comparative Religion rather than General Chat.

Also, when trying to prove Allah's existence to an athiest, it must be done in the atheist's 'language' if you will of logic and scientific fact rather than the Islamic 'language' of the Quran and Sunnah(not Arabic, but the belief system itself) - otherwise there's a fundamental communication barrier and it just becomes a circular argument.

[Trumble]

Also, when trying to prove Allah's existence to an athiest, it must be done in the atheist's 'language' if you will of logic and scientific fact rather than the Islamic 'language' of the Quran and Sunnah(not Arabic, but the belief system itself) - otherwise there's a fundamental communication barrier and it just becomes a circular argument.

I disagree regarding scientific and logical 'language' (although granted 'Islamic' language is unlikely to achieve a lot), although certainly Buddhists are not run-of-the-mill atheists.

I think any attempt to discuss the existence, or otherwise, and properties of something that must be beyond science and logic (as least as far as we will ever have the capacity to understand those things) is a project that must be doomed to failure. It is the so called 'scientific proofs' presented in relation to God in general and the authenticity of the Qur'an as divine revelation that I find by far the weakest arguments for either. Personally I find most of them not so much unconvincing as laughable and it baffles me completely why so many otherwise intelligent people can take them seriously.. and would be quite happy to explain why had I not done so half-a-dozen times on this forum already. Neither God, nor the Qur'an, needs such nonsense and it does no favours to either. I suppose such things might convince the odd atheist, but only those who don't bother to do a little research - the only effect Zakir Naik on the 'theory of probability' is likely to have on the intelligent atheist is them collapsing in fits of laughter.

God cannot be 'proved' using 'science' or 'logic'. Neither can God be 'disproved' by science or logic. Attempting either is equally futile.

A little advice, if I may presume, for those who might seriously want to try and convince an atheist that God exists?

1. Forget anything written by Zakir Niak or Harun Yahya. Their stuff won't convince an atheist of anything other than the fact that being an atheist is the smart call.

2. Read Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion'. Know your enemy.

3. Read McGrath's 'The Dawkins Delusion'. The best response to Dawkins, get some real ammo in your arsenal not pseudo-scientific tosh.

4. Read Collins' 'The Language of God'. If McGrath is the small-arms ammo in the pro-God stakes, Collins is the howitzer.

[Gator]

Just a quick point. I was answering MuhammadRizan's questions about atheists rather than trying to discuss the proof/non-proof of God.

I just figure he is trying to get a handle on atheist thinking (this one anyway) and I 'm just following his line of questions to see where it goes.

[Balthasar21]

i did not make that statement arrogant to the fact that the aethiests will completely deny it if not ridicule it.

But when a book comes to the most perfect human in the most eloquent style answering each and every problem of life and is still rejected then i honestly find a problem with the person.

Also i've grown a strong dislike for mathematics and science to always be shown to prove the validity of the quran, if anything this weakens my imaan! im not even kidding, anything Allah has revealed is far superior to anything humans can ever discover.


it is a fact that no book has stood the test of time other then the Quran Majeed. Allahu Akbar

How have Qur'aan stood the test of when the Qur'aan / Islam is only 1400 year old Book / Islam ???

[snakelegs]

Proving The Existence Of Allah (swt)to An Atheist:
don't.
save your breath and use your energy for something more useful.
most atheists are just as firm and rooted in their non-belief as you are in yours and you will be wasting your time.
(p.s. i should add for those who don't know - i am not an atheist. i believe in god.)

[guyabano]

:sl:

Just a quick reminder to everyone (well almost everyone :X no offence to those of other faiths and bliefs): Try your hardest to convince a person of the truth, but if both their eyes are closed tightly shut, ears forcefully deafenned and minded narrowed, then they are not in a position to know. Allah has sealed the hearts of some, so don't beat yourself up if they do not come to terms. People are different, you can't expect to win them over that easily.

:w:

ummmm, you can also twist this story around ! Religious people are so blindfolded, narrowminded and deaf, that they don't like to see the truth.

It's always a point of view

[wilberhum]

QUOTE]Proving The Existence Of Allah (swt)to An Atheist [/QUOTE]
There needs to be a "Debunking Rule". Any thing debunked more than a hundred times is considered "Permanently Debunked".
This article has even been debunked before on this forum.

I find it so amazing that the greatest minds the world has ever known could not prove the existence or the non-existence of god.

Now we some ** who not only claims proof of god but proof of what he wrote.

How does such a great mind PROVE all this? It is simple, he doesn’t.

He uses unsubstantiated statements as facts, uses circler logic and redefines the definition of proof.

I find it so sad that some need to twist the truth and make up fabrications to justify what they believe. I don't think that's what faith is all about.

[nebula]

what do you athiests believe exactly?

that we have just coincidentally been made along with the universe around us?

The perfect flawless design of our bodies has just been made coincidentally?

The sun is a perfect distance away from the earth, not to close that it would be too hot for the earth to support life and not to far that it would be too cold to support life COINCIDENTALLY??

think?

are you really that arrogant that you cannot see these blessings?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

How have Qur'aan stood the test of when the Qur'aan / Islam is only 1400 year old Book / Islam ???

show me a book which has stood the test of time for four hundred years? let alone 1400...

[wilberhum]

what do you athiests believe exactly?

that we have just coincidentally been made along with the universe around us?

The perfect flawless design of our bodies has just been made coincidentally?

The sun is a perfect distance away from the earth, not to close that it would be too hot for the earth to support life and not to far that it would be too cold to support life COINCIDENTALLY??

think?

are you really that arrogant that you cannot see these blessings?

What a load of * and I believe in god.
perfect flawless design? Wow, you need to see my feet.
sun is a perfect distance away? With billions and billions of chances, one is bound to be right.
You work on the assumption that all is the result of the perfect execution of a multi billion year plan. I think it is all just chance.

[Gator]

what do you athiests believe exactly?

Atheists do not believe god/gods exist. Other than that, though we may overlap in some ideas, each atheists believes there own thing.

that we have just coincidentally been made along with the universe around us?

Yes, I believe pretty much that.

The perfect flawless design of our bodies has just been made coincidentally?

Yes, pretty much. I disagree with perfect & flawless.

The sun is a perfect distance away from the earth, not to close that it would be too hot for the earth to support life and not to far that it would be too cold to support life COINCIDENTALLY??

Yeah, well thats what I believe allowed life to develop.

think?

I try my best.

are you really that arrogant that you cannot see these blessings?

Please don't be angry.

[nebula]

Atheists do not believe god/gods exist. Other than that, though we may overlap in some ideas, each atheists believes there own thing.

Yes, I believe pretty much that.

Yes, pretty much. I disagree with perfect & flawless.

Yeah, well thats what I believe allowed life to develop.

I try my best.

Please don't be angry.

u didnt quite get my point lol but i just wanted to show the stupidity of athiests:thumbs_up

[Balthasar21]

show me a book which has stood the test of time for four hundred years? let alone 1400...

By - Bill = Bible . Which was here before the Quraan .Even you know this

[wilberhum]

u didnt quite get my point lol but i just wanted to show the stupidity of athiests:thumbs_up

I think you have misjudged who has showen there stupitity. :?

[Gator]

u didnt quite get my point lol but i just wanted to show the stupidity of athiests:thumbs_up

ok.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

By - Bill = Bible . Which was here before the Quraan .Even you know this

lol, the bible is not preserved in its untouched original form, even you know this.

now when i say the test of time, i mean that the quran has not been altered AT ALL, the way it was recited and understood 1400 years ago, remains the same today !

[nebula]

if ur a athiest then why are u on this forum? if u do not believe in god?

this means u are insecure with ur belief that god doesnt exist and you just wanna keep argueing to keep urself happy.

[wilberhum]

if ur a athiest then why are u on this forum? if u do not believe in god?

this means u are insecure with ur belief that god doesnt exist and you just wanna keep argueing to keep urself happy.

Does your belief in god give you such great ability to judge others? :rollseyes

Or is it just another commonality of theists? Part of that smug attitude of superiority? :skeleton: :?

[nevesirth]

Just to clarify one thing out: I never said, I'm an Atheist, or at least tell me, where I mentionned that!

Religion is one thing, believing in something/someone ist another thing.

I just refuse to believe in something which simply doesn't exist. Curiously, we can proove the existance of bones of a fauna (like dinosaures) which lived millions of years ago. Even the Egyptians with Pyramids, the Chinese with the great wall were able to show 5000 years ago of their existance, but from this Jesus/Mohammed stuff, I can see nothing. It's all just hear and say.

So far...

If some like to believe that, well it's their own right. The thread asked an opinion, I gave one, so no need to insult me, if my opinion differ from yours, specially directed to nevesirth

i never insulted u. all im saying is tht no man can sincerely believe tht a supreme force doesnt exist, u may not refer to the supreme as a biing or a spirit or whtever, but u cant deny the fact tht something beyond the human comprehension exists which propelled existence into being. ok, u chose not to believe in something which u cant see physicaly, wht about air? the fact tht u dont see air doesnt mean u dont believe in its existence,thts because u can feel air. so the fact tht u can feel anythig at all or u are alive should open ur eyes to the reality of the existence of the creator as something beyond ur comprehension which sustains human existence and life in general!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[snakelegs]

if ur a athiest then why are u on this forum? if u do not believe in god?

this means u are insecure with ur belief that god doesnt exist and you just wanna keep argueing to keep urself happy.

nah - it just means they wanna preach too.
(note - i am not an atheist)

[Trumble]

u didnt quite get my point lol but i just wanted to show the stupidity of athiests:thumbs_up

You failed miserably.

lol, the bible is not preserved in its untouched original form, even you know this.

now when i say the test of time, i mean that the quran has not been altered AT ALL, the way it was recited and understood 1400 years ago, remains the same today !

Athough nobody made a habit of 'reciting' them we have no less reason to believe Plato's 'Republic' or Caesar's 'The Conquest of Gaul' have been altered either and there's certainly no reason to 'understand' them differently. Ditto the Lotus Sutra come to that. Why do such claims about the Qur'an always seem to assume the Bible was the only other book ever written? Even then the Bible is many books written over the course of a millennium, so its hardly a fair comparison.

[wilberhum]

nevesirth

i never insulted u. all im saying is tht no man can sincerely believe tht a supreme force doesnt exist,

Is it beyond your ability to understand calling some one a liar is insulting? :skeleton:

[nevesirth]

nevesirth

Is it beyond your ability to understand calling some one a liar is insulting? :skeleton:

hey!! inever called anyone a liar, i said atheists are living in denial. do u get the picture. stop puttin words in my mouth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Athough nobody made a habit of 'reciting' them we have no less reason to believe Plato's 'Republic' or Caesar's 'The Conquest of Gaul' have been altered either and there's certainly no reason to 'understand' them differently. Ditto the Lotus Sutra come to that. Why do such claims about the Qur'an always seem to assume the Bible was the only other book ever written? Even then the Bible is many books written over the course of a millennium, so its hardly a fair comparison.

it doesnt matter if you think other documents are unaltered, although until you can prove it i will never take that in lol, infact i can propably prove otherwise via the help of the good internet that it was changed. but no one can prove that the quran was altered..

Trumble in all honesty and if you really think about it, do you think it possible for a piece of writing to stay unaltered in text/sound and meaning for over 500 years let alone 1400 years?

and what reason do you have to believe the quran was altered?

if the Quran was altered then why cant we find any changes at all? i mean there are certain parts of the bible which make you think "no way could this be the true thing" ie the incest mentioned by ahmed deedat. theres so many factors..

[wilberhum]

hey!! inever called anyone a liar, i said atheists are living in denial. do u get the picture. stop puttin words in my mouth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, what you said was:

no man can sincerely believe tht a supreme force doesnt exist,

He said he doen't believe. You called him a liar.
If you can't see that you need to reread. :skeleton:

Don't ever, I mean never, tell some one he dosn't believe what he says he believes. There is no two ways about it. You call them a liar. :raging: :raging:

[nevesirth]

No, what you said was:

He said he doen't believe. You called him a liar.
If you can't see that you need to reread. :skeleton:

Don't ever, I mean never, tell some one he dosn't believe what he says he believes. There is no two ways about it. You call them a liar. :raging: :raging:

if he rlly doesnt believe, thts up 2 him. but its jst like someone saying he doesnt believe tht air exists, ill find it hard to believe hes serious, it jst sounds like denial to me thts all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Balthasar21]

lol, the bible is not preserved in its untouched original form, even you know this.

now when i say the test of time, i mean that the quran has not been altered AT ALL, the way it was recited and understood 1400 years ago, remains the same today !

Then why are they diffrent translation of the Qur'aan if it hasn't been altered ?

[wilberhum]

if he rlly doesnt believe, thts up 2 him.

Well now you are getting your facts right.

but its jst like someone saying he doesnt believe tht air exists

No, it isn't anything like that. Air has physical properties. Its existence can be proven.

ill find it hard to believe hes serious

Because he doesn’t believe what you believe?
Believe me he is as serious about his atheism as I am about my agnosticism, which could be as serious as you are about your theism, maybe more.

it jst sounds like denial to me thts all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sounds like is not very factual.
Never forget, more people believe different than you than like you.
That statement holds true regardless of your religion.

[nevesirth]

[QUOTE=wilberhum;783216]Well now you are getting your facts right.

No, it isn't anything like that. Air has physical properties. Its existence can be proven.

yeah, for the mere fact tht air has physical properties, thts enough to say the supreme being exists and also has physical properties, if not, where does the air come from? the fact tht there is the ability to feel or percieve anything physical goes a long way to prove the existence of a supreme force, because physicality itself has an origing and a source.

[Trumble]

Trumble in all honesty and if you really think about it, do you think it possible for a piece of writing to stay unaltered in text/sound and meaning for over 500 years let alone 1400 years?

Yes, of course its possible. Why shouldn't it be? Nobody argues about the text, or the meaning, of 'The Conquest of Gaul' or a thousand other books from classical Greece and Rome, or indeed ancient Chinese books such as the Art of War or the Book of Chuang Tzu. It's just a conceit that the Qur'an is or could be the only one, hence the constant comparison with the Bible which, as you rightly say, we know has been altered in the specifics of it's text if not its meaning.

and what reason do you have to believe the quran was altered?

I didn't say it had been. My point is that other, even older, books are equally unaltered.

if the Quran was altered then why cant we find any changes at all? i mean there are certain parts of the bible which make you think "no way could this be the true thing" ie the incest mentioned by ahmed deedat. theres so many factors..

Again, the comparison with the Bible. You are answering somebody else's point, not mine.

it doesnt matter if you think other documents are unaltered, although until you can prove it i will never take that in lol, infact i can propably prove otherwise via the help of the good internet that it was changed

Of course it doesn't matter.. you are immune to rational argument on the subject as your position is purely faith based.

Incidently, you cannot claim that the 'meaning' of the Qur'an is unchanged, at least if you are an advocate of the 'scientific proofs'. To accomodate those, verses must be understood as having different meanings from those held for centuries. It is inadequate merely to claim that 'we can only understand in the light of modern science' or such as that still does not alter the fact that the meaning must have changed. If you travelled back in time and asked a fifteenth century scholar about the meaning of passages some now like to think refer to continental drift or the expanding universe and such he wouldn't say, "yes, well, I don't understand that bit". He would provide another interpretation, another meaning. One that would be far more likely to be correct IMHO, but I've covered that already.

[wilberhum]

nevesirth

yeah, for the mere fact tht air has physical properties, thts enough to say the supreme being exists

No, how does something having physical properties prove god?

and also has physical properties, if not, where does the air come from?

Combining gasses for one. I’m sure with a little research I could find out how air formed on earth. God is not a necessary ingredient.

the fact tht there is the ability to feel or percieve anything physical goes a long way to prove the existence of a supreme force,

Again NO. The fact that I have a brain as do all complex life forms have, does not prove god.

because physicality itself has an origing and a source.

Maybe, but there are many explanations for the source, god is only one of them.

The greatest minds have not been able to probe the existence or non existence of god.

We two, with our pea brains are no match to the task.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Then why are they diffrent translation of the Qur'aan if it hasn't been altered ?

this is a classic misconception lol, there are translations of the quran for those who dont understand arabic, but there are no different altered versions of the quran. for example you will not find chapters thrown out and verses fabricated in...

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Trumble, i see your saying there are texts which are equally unaltered.

and i indeed do claim the meaning is unaltered and anyone who tries to alter them will be rejected by the majority.

if i do travel back in time the "level of understanding" will of course be faaar different due to the huge difference in intellect between the people of today and back then but the essence or "gist" of the meaning will not change... i hope you know what im trying to say.

[Joe98]

3-what kind of evidence or proof that atheist looking for or what kind of evidence or proof they can truly accept?

An occasional visit. At this point Klingons will visit the earth before any god does!

According to religious people, the earth is about 10,000 years old.

And, according to religious people, 10,000 years is like the blink of an eye to god.

And therefore, it goes, that 1,400 years after the muslim prophet Mohammad, 1,400 years is nothing to god and that’s why we havn’t heard from him.

If 10,000 years is the blink of an eye to god, how long is 10 minutes?

God could visit one a year for 10 mins and give his annual speech on the state of the earth. 10 mins is nothing to god.

But he has not. That’s because he doesn’t exist.



-

[Joe98]

if ur a athiest then why are u on this forum? if u do not believe in god?

this means u are insecure with ur belief that god doesnt exist and you just wanna keep argueing to keep urself happy.

It was a muslim who started the thread and asked Athiests to respond.

There is no god. There has never been any gods. It is an invention of man who can't understand something.

-

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam.

Hello.

To your first question (from the previous post) I think the definition of atheist is not believing in god/gods, which is what I believe.

As for question 3, I don't think and proof would be forthcoming, but I'd like a god concept that seems to fit what I see in the world around me. That would be a good start. As to proof, something miraculous would make me tip towards believing that there is a god out there.

Thanks.

okay i think i got it..

for my first question.

Hmm...people will say i'm crazy if i just make a claim my watch is just exist..i dont buy it..no body make it..it's just exist..

how on earth people do not say i'm crazy if this universe if just exist..it don't start..it's just exist.?

for my second question.
i think this is valid one..because we're human..at least we're most superior creature on earth and it will be absurd for us if we worship something lower than ourself like stone,statue,picture,animal,tree or anything.

then question is who is the God?

and my third question.

Miracle...well Quran is miracle..there is verse confirming science today..since Quran revealed 1400 years ago..it's impossible that Quran is manmade..unless somebody can prove Prophet Muhammad did take a science class.

example from Harun Yahya site.

THE STAR SIRIUS

When certain concepts mentioned in the Qur'an are studied in the light of 21st century scientific discoveries we find ourselves imparted with yet more miracles of the Qur'an. One of these is the star Sirius, mentioned in Surat an-Najm 49:

... it is He Who is the Lord of Sirius. (Qur'an, 53: 49)

The fact that the Arabic word "shi'raa," the equivalent of the star Sirius, appears only in Surat an-Najm, meaning only "star," 49 is particularly striking. Because, considering the irregularity in the movement of Sirius, the brightest star in the night sky, as their starting point, scientists discovered that it was actually a double star. Sirius is actually a set of two stars, known as Sirius A and Sirius B. The larger of these is Sirius A, which is also the closer to the Earth and the brightest star that can be seen with the naked eye. Sirius B, however, cannot be seen without a telescope.

The Sirius double stars orbit in ellipses about one another. The orbital period of Sirius A & B about their common centre of gravity is 49.9 years. This scientific data is today accepted with one accord by the departments of astronomy at Harvard, Ottawa and Leicester Universities.2 This information is reported as follows in various sources:

Sirius, the brightest star, is actually a twin star... Its orbit lasts 49.9 years.3

As is known, the stars Sirius-A and Sirius-B orbit each other in a double bow every 49.9 years.4

The point requiring attention here is the double, bow-shaped orbit of the two stars around one another.

However, this scientific fact, the accuracy of which was only realised in the late 20th century, was miraculously indicated in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago. When verses 49 and 9 of Surat an-Najm are read together, this miracle becomes apparent:

It is He Who is the Lord of Sirius. (Qur'an, 53: 49)

He was two bow-lengths away or even closer. (Qur'an, 53:9)

The description in Surat an-Najm 9 may also describe how these two stars approach one another in their orbits. (Allah knows best.) This scientific fact, that nobody could have known at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an, once again proves that the Qur'an is the word of Almighty Allah.

how are we going to refute this?

and this?

Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran makes very important scientific claims:

"He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death", the Unbelievers would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!" (The Noble Quran, 11:7)"

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (The Noble Quran, 21:30)"

"It is He Who has created man from water: then has He established relationships of lineage and marriage: for thy Lord has power (over all things). (The Noble Quran, 25:54)"

"And God has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. God creates what He wills for verily God has power over all things. (The Noble Quran, 24:45)"

"Protoplasm is the basis of all living matter, and 'the vital power of protoplasm seems to depend on the constant presence of water' (Lowsons' Text-book of Botany, Indian Edition. London 1922, p. 23). Text books of Zoology are also clear on the point. For example, see T.J. Parker and W.A. Haswell, Textbook of Zoology, London, 1910, Vol I. p. 15: 'Living protoplasm always contains a large amount of water.' " [2]

"About 72 percent of the surface of our Globe is still covered with water, and it has been estimated that if the inequalities of the surface were all leveled, the whole surface would be under water, as the mean elevation of land sphere-level would be 7,000-10,000 feet below the surface of the ocean (cf. 11:7). This shows the predominance of water on our Globe. That all life began in the water is also a conclusion to which our latest knowledge in biological science points. Apart from the fact that protoplasm, the original basis of living matter, is liquid or semi-liquid and in a state of constant flux and instability, there is the fact that land animals, like the higher vertebrates, including man, show, in their embryological history, organs like those of fishes, indicating the watery origin of their original habitat. The constitution of protoplasm is about 80 to 85 percent water (see also 24:30-31 and 24:45)." [3]

[Pygoscelis]

I must point out that if atheists here were writing with the same venom as some of the muslims in this thread have, I bet we'd be banned from the forum. Am I allowed to declare that muslims are stupid, childish, and in denial? No, I didn't think so. Yet look at the last few pages from our new muslim posters.

We seem to be getting the same questions re atheism over and over, so I will give you the 1 minute primer:

1. Athiesm is nothing but a lack of belief in God(s). Thats it. There is no dogma or system of belief in atheism at all. You were born an atheist yourself, before your parents taught you about your current belief. You are still atheist in regard to all gods but one. How you view Zeus is how atheists view Jehovah and Allah.

2. Pascal's Wager: "It is Safer to believe in God than not, So you should believe in God." This always comes up in these threads. It is fundamentally flawed in a number of ways. First, it is a false dichotomy, you assume only one possible God when there are infiinte possible Gods. Two, you assume one can choose to believe. Can you choose to believe that you are a cow? No. Because you know you're not.Three, Many religous books speak more harshly about worship of false gods than worship of no god, so one could argue that picking no god is safer than chancing picking the wrong god.

3. The Watchmaker Argument: The watch is complex, it could not just come to be on its own. Surely it had a creator. Humans and the universe are even MORE complex, so they must even more so need a creator! But wait --- God is infinitely yet MORE complex... so who created God? What? God has always existed or came to be on his own? Why not the universe then?

4. Atheists are not "in denial" or "rebelling against God". We honestly don't belive the fellow exists.

5. You do not need a God to have a moral sense. That comes from empathy and self interest and social contract. In fact, what you claim is morality from religion is really not morality at all, but just bare obedience to he with the greatest power.

6. Atheists who come here and to other online religious forums are not all unsteady about their athiesm or searching for faith. Most often they are simply curious, especially on a forum of a religion not so well known to them but in the news (such as Islam to most westerners). Often on such forums atheism is attacked, and it should be no surpise that the atheists there speak up. That is human nature.

Hopefully that quick 1 minute primer will head a few questions in this thread about atheism off at the pass.

[جوري]

To the original poster... I find absolutely no benefits trying to prove G-D to an atheist. Atheists make up 10% of the United States population, and I don't imagine it any different from any other part of the world... sort of like having a personality disorder which affects 10-15% of the adult US population-- as well as any other part of the world.. 10-15% in Saskatchewan and 10-15% on the canary Island will suffer some form of personality disorder... with all the progress of modern medicine Medications are in no way curative FOR ANY personality disorder.... like wise no amount of literature will get these folk to think differently. We'll all be engaging in idle discourse back and forth... I say live and let live, we don't gain or lose anything by their belief or lack thereof.. it is all so very inconsequential ... that is my two cents on this subject!..
:w:

[Balthasar21]

this is a classic misconception lol, there are translations of the quran for those who dont understand arabic, but there are no different altered versions of the quran. for example you will not find chapters thrown out and verses fabricated in...

lolololol next your going to tell me Muslims have the original copy of the Qur'aan !

[ranma1/2]

an atheist is someone who knows tht GOD exists but tries everyday of his life to deny this fact. he brainwashes himself to think he believes tht there is no GOD. so proving the existence of ALLAH[swt] to such person might be a waste of precious time because the atheist is aware of this but chose to live in denial!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep your right, we know the GFSM exists. So do you. You just deny it. Shame one you.

[ranma1/2]

u might not believe in the creator as GOD or ALLAH[swt], but it will be foolish of someone not to believe there is a higher force tht caused existence to be. u might not believe in the concept in of which religions potray the supreme but u cant deny the fact tht there is an ultimate force in control of existence. u dint create urself neither did any man create the earth, so how do uy explain the coming to being of the world?

wait i thought you just said we know a god exists... Now i think its foolish to believe what you believe without actual evidence.
If you are curious how evo works i recommend reading about it. If you are curious about how the big bang begane i suggest you reading about it.

And God did it is meaningless.

[ranma1/2]

i did not make that statement arrogant to the fact that the aethiests will completely deny it if not ridicule it.

But when a book comes to the most perfect human in the most eloquent style answering each and every problem of life and is still rejected then i honestly find a problem with the person.

Also i've grown a strong dislike for mathematics and science to always be shown to prove the validity of the quran, if anything this weakens my imaan! im not even kidding, anything Allah has revealed is far superior to anything humans can ever discover.


it is a fact that no book has stood the test of time other then the Quran Majeed. Allahu Akbar

And abook have never come to a most perfect human.
If this perfect human you are speaking of was perfect then surly his morals would have been perfect. And thus marrying a 9 year old would have been immoral. but wait... thats another thread...

Oh yeah, if allas reveliations are so cool then i strongly suggest you get off that human revealed computer, and stop takeing those human made medicnes. and stop driving human made cars...etc...

[ranma1/2]

Salam.



actually i'm not referring you;-), the questions are general for any atheist here,

i ask because the topic is "Proving The Existence Of Allah (swt)to An Atheist"....

and i wanna add.

3-what kind of evidence or proof that atheist looking for or what kind of evidence or proof they can truly accept?

For me i in general would like good old basic scientific evidence.
A holy book with out any contradictions would be a start.
Perhaps one that doesnt have to rely on an authority to tell you what the book says. A holy book that is perfectly translated without error from one language to another. etc...
I do not accept apeals to emotion or personal testimony. "after all there are many contradicting personal testimonies"

[ranma1/2]

Proving The Existence Of Allah (swt)to An Atheist:
don't.
save your breath and use your energy for something more useful.
most atheists are just as firm and rooted in their non-belief as you are in yours and you will be wasting your time.
(p.s. i should add for those who don't know - i am not an atheist. i believe in god.)

oh i think they should try, but if all they have is personal testimony or apeal to emotion, or similar garabage then they should give up. The typical atheists likely wants actual evidence. And this of course is never given.

[snakelegs]

there can be no evidence for a belief because belief is not science, so it cannot be proven in the way scientic knowlege can.
belief is a whole different system and is beyond the realm of science.
just because something can not be proven does not mean that it does not exist. it just means that it is beyond the realm of science - it may or may not exist.
religious people say they have proof and then quote from their holy books in an excercise of circular logic for something that by its very nature cannot be proven.
atheists who demand proof are making the same mistake as the religious people who claim they have proof.
if you can only believe something that you have scientific evidence for, that's your choice. seems somewhat limiting to me, but that's ok.

[ranma1/2]

what do you athiests believe exactly?

It varies, i would recommend reading about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism


that we have just coincidentally been made along with the universe around us?
could you clarify? We are a product of evolution. We are not "special".
This is supported by scientific evidence. there is zero scientific evidence that supports creation.

The perfect flawless design of our bodies has just been made coincidentally?
This is 100% false, our bodies are horribly designed to what they could be if made by an intelligent designer. I myself have a defective heart "MVP" poor eyes, caviteis, fat among other things. However with evo we expect not perfect designs but good enough.


The sun is a perfect distance away from the earth, not to close that it would be too hot for the earth to support life and not to far that it would be too cold to support life COINCIDENTALLY??

And thus we find life where life can exists. Nothing special about it. Also there is a range we can exists in. The earth actually varies in distance fromt he sun through out the year. Also if you look at extreme climates you will see a lack of abundant life.

think?
All the time, i also question and I am a general skeptic. Can you say the same?

are you really that arrogant that you cannot see these blessings?
What blessings? Could you clarify by what you mean?
The blessing of being able to fly like a bird ? sorry cant do that.
The blessings of living for thousand of years? sorry not that either.
The blessings of war? I hope you dont think that is one.

[ranma1/2]

i never insulted u. all im saying is tht no man can sincerely believe tht a supreme force doesnt exist, u may not refer to the supreme as a biing or a spirit or whtever, but u cant deny the fact tht something beyond the human comprehension exists which propelled existence into being. ok, u chose not to believe in something which u cant see physicaly, wht about air? the fact tht u dont see air doesnt mean u dont believe in its existence,thts because u can feel air. so the fact tht u can feel anythig at all or u are alive should open ur eyes to the reality of the existence of the creator as something beyond ur comprehension which sustains human existence and life in general!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So can women?
Well how about I go. I sincerly believe that based on the evidence that there is no god or intellgent force or creator that made us.
Well I just showed you wrong... bu wha ha h aha ha ha ha... "hack...darn soda" ... ha ha ha ha hah haaaa....

[guyabano]

if he rlly doesnt believe, thts up 2 him. but its jst like someone saying he doesnt believe tht air exists, ill find it hard to believe hes serious, it jst sounds like denial to me thts all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You had no school yesterday? Why are you messing up here?

Read again the text of the topic. I just gave my opinion and putting religions in question doesn't mean, I believe in nothing or nobody.
As Wilberhum said already, you didn't maybe call me directly a liar, but your words clearly mean that. So, fact is, you insulted me.
And supposed, that Islam is religion of peace and muslims are normally peacefully and friendly, I can only have one conclusion:
You are not a real muslim and you only pretend to be one !

[IbnAbdulHakim]

lolololol next your going to tell me Muslims have the original copy of the Qur'aan !

hmm, you laughed but showed no proof that the Quran is unaltered... so you compeletely assumed it...

smart :)

[Malaikah]

If this perfect human you are speaking of was perfect then surly his morals would have been perfect. And thus marying a 9 year old would have been immoral. but wait... thats another thread...

Ah, yes, and I suppose using your own moral standards to judge others who live in a totally different culture, life style and time is completely moral too? :rollseyes

[ranma1/2]

Ah, yes, and I suppose using your own moral standards to judge others who live in a totally different culture, life style and time is completely moral too? :rollseyes

If he is being deemed perfect i find it reasonable to judge him.
However I dont judge our past ancestors on our morals from modern society because they were not "perfect". I expect a normal imperfect human to be a product of their times. But if you deem this person to be "perfect" then i expect them to be "perfect".

[جوري]

Edit: please refrain from personal attacks. They are not constructive, and not the purpose of this forum.

[ranma1/2]

..
if you can only believe something that you have scientific evidence for, that's your choice. seems somewhat limiting to me, but that's ok.

I think there is a difference when you are looking at baseing a entire way of life. I personaly choose to look at the evidence and accept what is the best answer. I happily look at new evidence and if it points to something else then ill have something else to accept.

[Gator]

Salam.


okay i think i got it..

for my first question.

Hmm...people will say i'm crazy if i just make a claim my watch is just exist..i dont buy it..no body make it..it's just exist..

how on earth people do not say i'm crazy if this universe if just exist..it don't start..it's just exist.?

for my second question.
i think this is valid one..because we're human..at least we're most superior creature on earth and it will be absurd for us if we worship something lower than ourself like stone,statue,picture,animal,tree or anything.

then question is who is the God?

and my third question.

Miracle...well Quran is miracle..there is verse confirming science today..since Quran revealed 1400 years ago..it's impossible that Quran is manmade..unless somebody can prove Prophet Muhammad did take a science class.]

We see the universe around us. Nobody knows how it got here. While you come to the conclusion that Allah made it, I wouldn't make that jump. I see a chaotic jumble guided by physical laws.

example from Harun Yahya site.

THE STAR SIRIUS

When certain concepts mentioned in the Qur'an are studied in the light of 21st century scientific discoveries we find ourselves imparted with yet more miracles of the Qur'an. One of these is the star Sirius, mentioned in Surat an-Najm 49:

... it is He Who is the Lord of Sirius. (Qur'an, 53: 49)

The fact that the Arabic word "shi'raa," the equivalent of the star Sirius, appears only in Surat an-Najm, meaning only "star," 49 is particularly striking. Because, considering the irregularity in the movement of Sirius, the brightest star in the night sky, as their starting point, scientists discovered that it was actually a double star. Sirius is actually a set of two stars, known as Sirius A and Sirius B. The larger of these is Sirius A, which is also the closer to the Earth and the brightest star that can be seen with the naked eye. Sirius B, however, cannot be seen without a telescope.

The Sirius double stars orbit in ellipses about one another. The orbital period of Sirius A & B about their common centre of gravity is 49.9 years. This scientific data is today accepted with one accord by the departments of astronomy at Harvard, Ottawa and Leicester Universities.2 This information is reported as follows in various sources:

Sirius, the brightest star, is actually a twin star... Its orbit lasts 49.9 years.3

As is known, the stars Sirius-A and Sirius-B orbit each other in a double bow every 49.9 years.4

The point requiring attention here is the double, bow-shaped orbit of the two stars around one another.

However, this scientific fact, the accuracy of which was only realised in the late 20th century, was miraculously indicated in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago. When verses 49 and 9 of Surat an-Najm are read together, this miracle becomes apparent:

It is He Who is the Lord of Sirius. (Qur'an, 53: 49)

He was two bow-lengths away or even closer. (Qur'an, 53:9)

The description in Surat an-Najm 9 may also describe how these two stars approach one another in their orbits. (Allah knows best.) This scientific fact, that nobody could have known at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an, once again proves that the Qur'an is the word of Almighty Allah.

how are we going to refute this?]

The orbit of Sirius AB is 50.09 years, not 49.9. Even with its wobble, 49.9 is too short.

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/c...;filetype=.pdf

and this?

Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran makes very important scientific claims:

"He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death", the Unbelievers would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!" (The Noble Quran, 11:7)"

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (The Noble Quran, 21:30)"

"It is He Who has created man from water: then has He established relationships of lineage and marriage: for thy Lord has power (over all things). (The Noble Quran, 25:54)"

"And God has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. God creates what He wills for verily God has power over all things. (The Noble Quran, 24:45)"

"Protoplasm is the basis of all living matter, and 'the vital power of protoplasm seems to depend on the constant presence of water' (Lowsons' Text-book of Botany, Indian Edition. London 1922, p. 23). Text books of Zoology are also clear on the point. For example, see T.J. Parker and W.A. Haswell, Textbook of Zoology, London, 1910, Vol I. p. 15: 'Living protoplasm always contains a large amount of water.' " [2]

"About 72 percent of the surface of our Globe is still covered with water, and it has been estimated that if the inequalities of the surface were all leveled, the whole surface would be under water, as the mean elevation of land sphere-level would be 7,000-10,000 feet below the surface of the ocean (cf. 11:7). This shows the predominance of water on our Globe. That all life began in the water is also a conclusion to which our latest knowledge in biological science points. Apart from the fact that protoplasm, the original basis of living matter, is liquid or semi-liquid and in a state of constant flux and instability, there is the fact that land animals, like the higher vertebrates, including man, show, in their embryological history, organs like those of fishes, indicating the watery origin of their original habitat. The constitution of protoplasm is about 80 to 85 percent water (see also 24:30-31 and 24:45)." [3]

We are made of water and other chemicals. If it had said both I'd be more willing to even consider this.

The science thing I kind of doubt because you really have to read into things and fit things to make it make sense. If it was more plain as day I'd be less of a skeptic.

EVERYONE: Again, we are not trying to convert each other or preach. We are just exchanging ideas. I am trying to answer his questions to give him a better view of who I am. I like discussing religion because I think it provides an insight into what makes us differnt in our approach to come to grips with how the world works.

Thanks.

[Pygoscelis]

think there is a difference when you are looking at baseing a entire way of life. I personaly choose to look at the evidence and accept what is the best answer. I happily look at new evidence and if it points to something else then ill have something else to accept.

The best answer in my view is honesty. Simply admit you don't know. It isn't as unconfortable not claiming to know as people seem to think.

[جوري]

typical Atheist writes then runs frightened re-edits the entire contents of his post.. Well I have wasted my time on a reply and so it shall remain!

I have already stated my opinion on this thread ... I neither gain nor lose anything from an Atheist belief or lack thereof and I don't believe the rest of the community/ world does either... No one is going to sit here and distil their life long search and experience for you so you can dispense with the usual contumelies!
what you do, ultimately you do or don't do unto yourself... how does it affect me whether or not you believe in God, and why should I have to defend my beliefs to anyone Atheist or otherwise? Some people have non sequitur logic, you tell them watermelons taste great and they say they have allergies.... what is the point in trying to get them to have a bite? live and let live.. I didn't start this thread, I usually think they become deranged with everyone trying oh so extra hard to prove something to the other.. Atheists typically fancy themselves scientifically able-- but aren't! -- rather than drag this on for days and waste everyone's time.. I think the thread should be closed.. it reached the end of its value 3 pages ago ..
have a great one!

[Woodrow]

Conclusion that somebody much smarter than me once said:

"To the true believer, no proof is necessary. To the non believer, no proof is sufficient." - Peter James

Nothing else can or need be added to this thread.

:threadclo