What is the Islamic concept of Knowledge?

[distinctmoiz]

:sl:

Could anyone of please tell that what is the concept of 'knowledge' in Islam?

Kindly recommend some books, articles, audios, videos, web links (anything) that can help me in this regard.

Thank You!

[- Qatada -]

:wasalamex


Here's some good links insha Allaah :)


http://kalamullah.com/

http://abdurrahman.org/



They might keep you busy for a little while :)



Peace.

[distinctmoiz]

Thanx for the links but, I wants to know more...

[snakelegs]

(from the kalamullah link) "\Sufyaan Ath-Thawree, raHimahullaah, said: "The excellence of knowledge is due only to the fact that it causes a person to fear and obey Allaah, otherwise it is just like anything else." [Related by ibn Rajab]

Al-Hasan al-Basree, raHimahullaah, said: "Whoever learns something in the name of Allaah, seeking that which is with Him, he will win. And whoever learns something for other than Allaah, he will not reach the goal, nor will his acquired knowledge bring him closer to Allaah." [Related by Ibn ul Jawzee]

Ibn Mas`ood, raDiallaahu `anhu, said: "True knowledge is not measured in relationship to how much you memorize and then narrate, but rather, true knowledge is an expression of piety [protecting oneself from what Allaah prohibited and acting upon what He mandated]."Also, "Study and act upon what you learn." [Related by Abu Na`eem]

this sounds like it could be used (or mis-used?) to teach muslims that they should ignore anything but religious instruction. (and i know that there are indeed some who do take this view). am i mis-understanding? is it only speaking of "intent"? what is the meaning of "just like everything else" in the above?
(i realize on one level, everything a muslim does is for god and he should remember god all the time).
please don't tell me to read the entire book!

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[rubiesand]

:wasalamex

Try this article insha Allah.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

if you want it simple... my little understanding of knowledge in islam is the awareness and fear of God... if you have these then you have the knowledge...

[Muslim Woman]

With the name of ALLAH (God Almigthy) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

%%%%%

this sounds like it could be used (or mis-used?) to teach muslims that they should ignore anything but religious instruction. !

there is a hadith that says Muslims to go to even China for learning purpose.

surely China was not famous for Islamic teaching .

So , it's clear that Muslims are allowed to learn other things , too. But we must keep in mind that what we do , what we learn or apply , We must do it for good purposes to please Allah.

At least , that what i understand about knowledge.

[syilla]

this sounds like it could be used (or mis-used?) to teach muslims that they should ignore anything but religious instruction. (and i know that there are indeed some who do take this view). am i mis-understanding? is it only speaking of "intent"? what is the meaning of "just like everything else" in the above?
(i realize on one level, everything a muslim does is for god and he should remember god all the time).
please don't tell me to read the entire book!

The concept of knowledge in islam is differ from others. The article below is trying to define the islamic theory of knowledge compared to the western definition.

In the Islamic theory of knowledge, the term used for knowledge in Arabic is 'ilm, which, as Rosenthal has justifiably pointed out, has a much wider connotation than its synonyms in English and other Western languages. 'Knowledge' falls short of expressing all the aspects of 'ilm. Knowledge in the Western world means information about something, divine or corporeal, while 'ilm is an all-embracing term covering theory, action and education. Rosenthal, highlighting the importance of this term in Muslim civilization and Islam, says that it gives them a distinctive shape.

In fact there is no concept that has been operative as a determinant of the Muslim civilization in all its aspects to the same extent as 'ilm. This holds good even for the most powerful among the terms of Muslim religious life such as, for instance, tawhid "recognition of the oneness of God," ad-din, "the true religion," and many others that are used constantly and emphatically. None of them equals ilm in depth of meaning and wide incidence of use. There is no branch of Muslim intellectual life, of Muslim religious and political life, and of the daily life of the average Muslim that remains untouched by the all pervasive attitude toward "knowledge" as something of supreme value for Muslim being. 'ilm is Islam, even if the theologians have been hesitant to accept the technical correctness of this equation. The very fact of their passionate discussion of the concept attests to its fundamental importance for Islam.

The Islamic Concept of Knowledge

And below article is about Who Speaks on Behalf of Islam? As you can see alot of people muslims or non-muslims wants to speaks on behalf of islam.

Logically, if one knows how to define knowledge the question does not arise because the answer is all too obvious. One who knows what wealth is should know who is wealthy and who is not!

Hence, the correct question should be: what is knowledge? If one knows what knowledge is one would know who is in possession of it, and the question of who speaks for Islam should not arise.
However this problem is not as simple as it seems. The problem of knowledge is the most fundamental problem in philosophy. What makes the problem even more complicated is the fact that every culture and civilization has its own conception of knowledge depending on what it defines as ‘real' and ‘true'. Hence, it is not appropriate to impose the general criteria accepted in a particular culture and civilization as the standard criteria for all. Islam, in this regard, has got its own criteria of what constitutes knowledge and authority, and this important fact must not be ignored.

However, to get people to scrutinize a concept is a big problem today because people are in the habit of thinking that concepts cannot be applied to action, and are thus useless (see Dr. Zaidi Ismail's article: Must All Concepts be Translatable into Action?, The Star 22 May). So one may ask: what is the relevance of talking about knowledge when the ‘real issue' confronting us today is, let us assume to be, terrorism? Here the problem of ‘the real issue' has been confused with ‘what is happening'. In reality the latter is an indicator of what is actually false--in other words it has been wrongly and falsely conceived and as such has led to conflict and more confusion.

Nevertheless, in order to appreciate this, nevertheless, it is necessary for one to realize the difference between knowledge and mere opinion. Opinion can be true or false, but knowledge cannot be. If one claims to have knowledge about something which turns out to be false, then it is not knowledge but opinion or theory.

Returning now to the original question, who speaks for Islam? Thus far we have assumed that the inquirer is simply ignorant but nevertheless sincere in his efforts to rid himself of his own ignorance. But what if the inquirer is one who denies the possibility and objectivity of knowledge altogether? In other words, what if the inquirer is a skeptic?

full article

[snakelegs]

rubiesand and syilla,
i haven't read your articles yet but will.

if you want it simple... my little understanding of knowledge in islam is the awareness and fear of God... if you have these then you have the knowledge...

you are aware and fear god - are you saying that that is all the knowledge that is required? no history, psychology, biology, chemistry etc etc?
obviously the muslims in spain didn't think that and i doubt that that is what you mean.

there is a hadith that says Muslims to go to even China for learning purpose.

surely China was not famous for Islamic teaching .

yeah, i always liked that hadith but ansar told me it was a weak hadith. :hmm:

[extinction]

The Islamic Concept of Knowledge? Wow thats a mouthful.... personally I've been told and have told people, pursue whatever field of knowledge floats your boat, but as long as you can utilize whichever field you are in for a better cause and to propagate Islam and the awareness of Allah, you're golden. e.g If someone decides to pursue a field in medicine, after completion they prescribe medication to a muslim patient instead of saying take one in the morning, afternoon, and evening; he can simply say, take on after Fajr, after Zuhr, and after Isha. Indirectly you've given dawat and used your profession as a credibility factor.

[syilla]

rubiesand and syilla,
i haven't read your articles yet but will.



you are aware and fear god - are you saying that that is all the knowledge that is required? no history, psychology, biology, chemistry etc etc?
obviously the muslims in spain didn't think that and i doubt that that is what you mean.

i think from 'my' little knowledge of understanding,

Those knowlege (history, psychology, biology, chemistry) is needed too to make us more aware and fear Allah subhanahuwata'ala.

This what we called it in terms fardh' kifayah.

[asadxyz]

Thanx for the links but, I wants to know more...

:sl:
I do not know what is your requirement but let put a few words.Everyone knows that human beings are composed of two components

1. Soul which is امر ربي or you can call it as divine Energy
2. Body made from the dust of Earth

Exactly in the same way their sources of knowledge are also two

1. Divine knowledge which is direct guidance of the human being to lead a righteous life =Conceptual knowledge
2. Acquired knoledge which is gained indirectly through sensory systems = perceptual knowledge

Both of these sources are essential for the human beings.The Holy Quran points towards both of these knowledges equally and calls them علم .

REVELATION IS CALLED as علم .
قُلْ إِنَّ هُدَى اللّهِ هُوَ الْهُدَى وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعْتَ أَهْوَاءهُم بَعْدَ الَّذِي جَاءكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ مَا لَكَ مِنَ اللّهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلاَ نَصِيرٍ﴿2:120﴾

Tell them plainly, "The right way is shown by Allah." And if, after all the' knowledge you have received, you were to yield to their desires, you shall find neither any friend nor helper to protect you from Allah's wrath.

But it is very interesting to know that the Holy Quran point again and again to ponder and think deeply on the "Law of nature", and explore it .

خَلَقَ اللَّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ بِالْحَقِّ إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَآيَةً لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ﴿29:44﴾


(29:44) Allah has created the heavens and the earth with the Truth. *75 Indeed there is a Sign in this for the believers

إِنَّ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلاَفِ اللَّيْلِ وَالنَّهَارِ لآيَاتٍ لِّأُوْلِي الألْبَابِ﴿3:190﴾

(3:190) Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth, *134 and in the alternation of night and day, there are signs for men of understanding.

الَّذِينَ يَذْكُرُونَ اللّهَ قِيَامًا وَقُعُودًا وَعَلَىَ جُنُوبِهِمْ وَيَتَفَكَّرُونَ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ رَبَّنَا مَا خَلَقْتَ هَذا بَاطِلاً سُبْحَانَكَ فَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ﴿3:191﴾

(3:191) those who remember Allah while standing, sitting or (reclining) on their backs, and reflect in the creation of the heavens and the earth, *135 (saying): 'Our Lord! You have not created this in vain. Glory to You! Save us, then, from the chastisement of the Fire

إِنَّ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلاَفِ اللَّيْلِ وَالنَّهَارِ وَالْفُلْكِ الَّتِي تَجْرِي فِي الْبَحْرِ بِمَا يَنفَعُ النَّاسَ وَمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ مِنَ السَّمَاء مِن مَّاء فَأَحْيَا بِهِ الأرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهَا وَبَثَّ فِيهَا مِن كُلِّ دَآبَّةٍ وَتَصْرِيفِ الرِّيَاحِ وَالسَّحَابِ الْمُسَخِّرِ بَيْنَ السَّمَاء وَالأَرْضِ لآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَعْقِلُونَ﴿2:164﴾

(2:164) (If they want a sign for the perception of this Reality) surety there are countless signs for those who use their common sense; *162 they can see alternation of the night and day, in the ships that sail the ocean laden with cargoes beneficial to mankind, and in the rain-water which Allah sends down from the sky and thereby gives life to the earth after its death and spreads over it all kinds of animate creatures, in the blowing of the winds and in the clouds which obediently wait for orders between the sky and the earth.

WHO ARE علماء ???
We usually confine term of علماء for those persons who have knowledge of Deen (no doubt those are also Ulamaa) whether they have some knowledge of science or not.But the Holy Quran is using this term in some other context :

أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ أَنزَلَ مِنَ السَّمَاء مَاء فَأَخْرَجْنَا بِهِ ثَمَرَاتٍ مُّخْتَلِفًا أَلْوَانُهَا وَمِنَ الْجِبَالِ جُدَدٌ بِيضٌ وَحُمْرٌ مُّخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهَا وَغَرَابِيبُ سُودٌ﴿36:27﴾

(35:27) Do you not see that Allah sends down rainwater from the sky and we bring forth thereby a variety of fruits of different colours ? In the mountains also there are streaks, white and red and jetblack, with different hues.

وَمِنَ النَّاسِ وَالدَّوَابِّ وَالْأَنْعَامِ مُخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهُ كَذَلِكَ إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاء إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ﴿36:28﴾
(35:28) And likewise, men, beasts and cattle also have different colours. *48 The fact is that only those of His servants, who possess knowledge, fear Allah. *49 Surely, Allah is All-Mighty, All-Forgiving

According to Quran those who ponder over different phenomenon of the universe are real علماء

Look at this Aya:

وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَاخْتِلَافُ أَلْسِنَتِكُمْ وَأَلْوَانِكُمْ إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّلْعَالِمِينَ﴿30:22﴾
(30:22) And of His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earths *31 and the difference of your tongues and colours. *32 Surely in this there are many Signs for the Iearned.

The Holy Quran continuously draws attention towards different branches of Science like
ANTHROPOLOGY AND ARECHEOLOGY :

قُلْ سِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَانظُرُوا كَيْفَ بَدَأَ الْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ اللَّهُ يُنشِئُ النَّشْأَةَ الْآخِرَةَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ﴿29:20﴾
(29:20) Say to them, "Go about in the earth and see how He has begun the creation; then Allah will recreate life: surely Allah has power over everything.

وَكَأَيِّن مِّن آيَةٍ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ يَمُرُّونَ عَلَيْهَا وَهُمْ عَنْهَا مُعْرِضُونَ﴿12:105﴾

(12:105) And *74 many are the Signs in the heavens and the earth; yet they pass by and pay no heed to them.

ANIMAL EMBRYOLOGY :

أَفَلَا يَنظُرُونَ إِلَى الْإِبِلِ كَيْفَ خُلِقَتْ﴿88:17﴾ (88:17) (They do not believe:) but, do they not look at the camels, how they were created?
ASTRONOMY

وَإِلَى السَّمَاء كَيْفَ رُفِعَتْ﴿88:18﴾ (88:18)

And at the heaven, how it was raised high?

GEOLOGY

وَإِلَى الْجِبَالِ كَيْفَ نُصِبَتْ﴿88:19﴾

(88:19) And at the mountains, how they were firmly set?

وَإِلَى الْأَرْضِ كَيْفَ سُطِحَتْ﴿88:20﴾

(88:20) And at the earth, how it was spread out?

THOSE WHO DO NOT USE THEIR SENSES TO PONDER :

وَلَقَدْ ذَرَأْنَا لِجَهَنَّمَ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ الْجِنِّ وَالإِنسِ لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ لاَّ يَفْقَهُونَ بِهَا وَلَهُمْ أَعْيُنٌ لاَّ يُبْصِرُونَ بِهَا وَلَهُمْ آذَانٌ لاَّ يَسْمَعُونَ بِهَا أُوْلَـئِكَ كَالأَنْعَامِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْغَافِلُونَ﴿7:179﴾

(7:179) And certainly We have created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind; *140 they have hearts with which they fail to understand; and they have eyes with which they fail to see; and they have cars with which they fail to hear. They are like cattle - indeed, even more astray. Such are utterly heedless.

WHO CAN UNDERSTAND THESE PARABLES ???

وَتِلْكَ الْأَمْثَالُ نَضْرِبُهَا لِلنَّاسِ وَمَا يَعْقِلُهَا إِلَّا الْعَالِمُونَ﴿29:43﴾

(29:43) These parables We cite for the instruction of the people, but only those people understand them, who have knowledge.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

you are aware and fear god - are you saying that that is all the knowledge that is required? no history, psychology, biology, chemistry etc etc?
obviously the muslims in spain didn't think that and i doubt that that is what you mean.:

A man once approached imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal and exclaimed that he has no knowledge at all, but in return imam Ahmad humbly replied "but i have its fruits, i have the taqwa of Allah".

if you can read one paragraph of islamic text and gain such deep rooted fear of Allah then you have the knowledge (in my understanding), why? because! your depth of understanding and wisdom is such that you managed to gain the essence of whats being said and didnt have to go around memorising thousands of other scriptures.

i hope that makes sense...

[Musalmaan]

if you want it simple... my little understanding of knowledge in islam is the awareness and fear of God... if you have these then you have the knowledge...

quiet true.

:salamext:

[jzcasejz]

:sl:

Could anyone of please tell that what is the concept of 'knowledge' in Islam?

Kindly recommend some books, articles, audios, videos, web links (anything) that can help me in this regard.

Thank You!

Wa'alaikum Salaam

The link Bro -Qatada- gave was good. Check this link out: http://abdurrahman.org/knowledge/index.html

^ The articles in that provided link are some excellent resources for Knowledge...

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

yeah, i always liked that hadith but ansar told me it was a weak hadith. :hmm:

Yes it is.

Related by Ibn Adee (2/207)m Abu Nu’aym in ‘Akhbaar Asbahaan’ and others via many routes of narration, and all of them adding the words "for indeed seeking knowledge is an obligatory duty upon all Muslims."

Ibn al-Jawzee mentions this and then quotes Ibn Hibbaan saying, "invalid/rejected, it has no basis" ‘al-Mawdoo’aat’ (1/215)]

Adh-Dhahabee also endorsed the above words of Ibn Hibbaan, [‘Tarteeb al-Mawdoo’aat’ of Adh-Dhahabee (pg. 52 no. 111)] and likewise as-Sakhaawee [‘Maqaasid al-Hasanah’ (pg. 86 no. 125)]

Al-Albaanee declares this hadeeth to be mawdoo (fabricated) [‘Da’eef al-Jaami as-Sagheer’ (no’s 1005-1006)]

In summary, the above hadeeth is related by a group of trustworthy narrators without the words "even if it be to China" and a few narrators who are deemed weak; liars; abandoned by the scholars narrate this additional wording. So the Ahaadeeth with the additional wording is fabricated, but without is hasan (good). [See ‘Silsilah ad-Da’eefah’ (1/600 no. 416) for detail.]

[distinctmoiz]

Thank you very much to all of you!

After a week long web search and book reading I've came to know following things (sharing with all of you).

I've found few good links...

http://www.isesco.org.ma/pub/Eng/enligth/Chap6.htm

http://roskiman.com/2040concept_of_knowledge.htm

Moreover, The Book of ILM in Imam al-Ghazali's masterpiece Ihya Uloom ad-Din (The Revival of Religious Knowledge/Sciences) explains the concept of ILM (knowledge) very beautifully and intelligently.

BUT, 'I think' that the first chapter of Syed Ali al-Hujweri's Kashful Mahjub is the best!

A MUST READ PDF FILE... http://moveforjustice.org/Portals/0/...0Knowledge.pdf

I'm pasting some great sayings below they'll definitely help all of you...

Saying if Imam Jafar as-Sadiq may ALLAH be well pleased with him)

1. Knowledge is a shield, truthfulness is might, ignorance is abasement, understanding is glory, generosity is success, good behavior causes friendship, he who has knowledge about his time, ambiguous things do not attack him.

2. Whoever attacks a matter without knowledge cuts off his own nose.

3. Verily, knowledge is a lock and its key is the question.

4. Allah does not accept any act without knowledge, there is no knowledge without act, so whoever knows, knowledge leads him to act, and whoever does not act gets no knowledge, but belief is a little of a little.

5. Enough for the fear of Allah is knowledge and enough for self-importance is ignorance.

6. Indeed, the most knowledge of all men in Allah is the most satisfied of them with death.


Sayings of Imam Ali al-Murtaza (may ALLAH be well pleased with him)

1. There is no good in knowledge which does not benefit.

2. you who carry knowledge around with you; are you only carrying it around with you? For surely knowledge belongs to whoever knows and then acts accordingly, so that his action corresponds to his knowledge. There will be a people who will carry knowledge around with them, but it will not pass beyond their shoulders. Their inner most thoughts will contradict what they display in public, and their actions will contradict what they know.

3. Do not turn your knowledge into ignorance and your surety into doubt. When you acquire knowledge then act in accordance with it and when you achieve surety then proceed with it.

4. Knowledge is accompanied by action. Thus he who knows acts in accordance with it. Knowledge is called through action. Thus if called it responds and if left uncalled it leaves.

5. The lowest form of knowledge is the one which (only) appears upon the tongue while the loftiest is the one made manifest by the organs and the limbs.

6. Verbal Knowledge is of the least value, while practical knowledge is of the highest.

7. The more knowledgeable the man, the more valuable the man.

8. The most complete gift of God is a life based on knowledge.

9. Knowledge gives life to the soul. Knowledge creates fear of God.

10. Practice makes knowledge perfect.

11. The one who engages in business without knowledge of its laws is inevitably dragged into usury.

12. Two types of people will never be satiated, the seeker of knowledge and the seeker of this world.

13. The best companion is satisfaction while knowledge is a noble heritage. Good morals are renewable garments and thought is a clear mirror.

14. There is no virtue in your possession of excessive
wealth and offspring rather virtue and merit are (awarded) by greater knowledge and insistence and by your devotion to your Lord.

15. When a dead person is placed in his grave, four kinds of fire will cover him, but then the prayer will come and put one of them out, and the fast will come and put another one of them out, and then charity will come and put another one out, and knowledge will come and put the forth one out, and it will say: If I had come sooner, I would a have put all of them out, and given you delight for I am with you now, and you'll not see anything else distressing.

16. When Allah wishes to humiliate a person He prevents him from gaining knowledge.

Traditions attributed to The Noble Prophet (peace be upon him)

1. It is an obligation for every Muslim to seek knowledge.
   
2. Seek knowledge from cradle to grove.
   
3. Scholars are the heirs of the prophets.
   
4. The ink of the learned will be weighed with the blood of
   
5. the martyrs on the Resurrection Day; and then, the ink of the learned would be preferred to the blood of the martyrs.
6. Anyone who pursues a course in search of knowledge, God will ease his way to paradise.
7. The most learned of men is the one who gathers knowledge from others on his own; the most worthy of men is the most knowing and the meanest is the most ignorant.
8. Acquire knowledge, it enables its possessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven.

Knowledge is better than Wealth because of the following seven reasons:

1. Knowledge is inheritance of Prophets while wealth is inheritance of Firauns (Pharaohs).
   
2. Knowledge does not diminish (rather increases) with spending, while wealth diminishes with spending.
   
3. Wealth requires to be protected, while knowledge protects its owner.
   
4. Knowledge will enter the Kafan (Shroud) while wealth will be prevented from doing so.
   
5. Wealth reaches both believers and unbelievers (Kafir), while knowledge is reserved only for those who are worthy of it.
   
6. Knowledge will facilitate passing over the Seraat (Bridge over Hell) while wealth will pore hurdles.
   
7. People are always in need of scholars while they might not be in need of those possessing wealth.

PS: "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is 'the illusion' of knowledge" -- Stephen Hawking

[snakelegs]

:wasalamex

Try this article insha Allah.

this was a long but very interesting article. i'm not sure how it directly answers the question, but i think it does indirectly. i want to see if i understood it right or am reading too much in to it.

i also think it's worth sharing some of it.

as i said in my original question, i realize that a muslim is always supposed to be aware of god and everything he does is service to god.

i do know that there are some muslims who think a muslim should only receive relgious instruction, rather than giving him also the tools to be successful in the modern world. this attitude puzzles me.

the article is saying that god is involved in everything that goes on in his creation - so i am assuming that everything is related to god and therefore knowledge is also knowlege of god and it is a way to come closer to god, by studying his creation. yes? so you increase your knowlege, you increase your awareness of god's unity. there is no "religious" vs "scientific" education...

before the renaisance it was believed that all things came from god and there was no distinction between the physical and the metaphysical as it was all from god.

during the renaisance, there was a splitting between the material and the spiritual and eventually it came to be thought that only the material was "truth". the myth of objectivity was born and anything that could not be objectively studied, was not real. so an artrifical dichotomy was created.

i am not very educated but i remember reading about heisenburg's "uncertainty principal" and how it proved that on a sub-quantum level, there is no such thing as an objective observer - the very observation of the thing you are trying to study, changes it (because of the energy from the light the observer must use to see.) so i thought from my little knowledge, that physics was pretty cool. maybe because i have very little education - i never really thought the material and non-material were opposites in the way we were taught. later i read the capra book that mentioned in the article, which confirmed that thought. so that was cool too.

the article quotes capra:
"When quantum mechanics - the theoretical foundation of atomic physics - was worked out in the 1920's, it became clear that even the sub-atomic particles were nothing like the solid objects of classical physics. . .At the sub-atomic level the solid material of classical physics dissolve into wave-like patterns of probablities . . .A careful analysis of the process of observation in atomic physics has shown that the sub-atomic particles have no meaning as isolated entities but can only be understood as correlations between the preparation of an experiment and the subsequent measurement. This implies, however, that the Cartesian division between the I and the world cannot be made while dealing with atomic matter. Quantum mechanics thus reveals a basic oneness of the Universe. As we penetrate into matter, nature does not show us any isolated basic building blocks, but rather appears as a complicated web of relations between the various parts of the whole and these relations always include the observer in an essential way."

the implications of all this have not, in my opinion, even begun to sink in. (i see that here in a lot of the stuff atheists write).

so in a way, scientific knowledge has come full circle. and things that were artifically separated became a union again. sometimes a particle is matter and sometimes it is wave.

then the article surprised me by saying that now a traditional muslim education is not available anywhere, because muslims too have adopted the premise that the metaphysical does not exist, or if it does, somehow it is less than the physical.

i think the article is saying that recent scientific discoveries have made it easy to re-unite the 2. one is not greater and one lesser - they are intertwined.

so knowlege of the material world is not separate from knowledge of the metaphysical. knowledge should increase a muslim's faith, not threaten it or make it look weak, but confirm it, by broadening his awe of the creator.

sorry this is so rambling - it probably could've been said in many less words.

in my next post, i'm going to paste the last part of the article because i am curious how people would react to it here.
syilla, i haven't read your article yet but i will and make comments or questions, if i have any.
nowi have to clean my filthy house, which for some reason gets no cleaner while i sit at the computer. :D

[snakelegs]

as promised (or threatened, depending on your point of view), here is the last part of the article:

"There are basically three kinds of Muslims in the world today and they can be loosely categorised as traditionalists, modernists and fundamentalists although the categories are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

The traditionalists are Muslims who are happy with what they have received from their forbears. Their Islam is inextricably bound up with the history, culture and geographical location of the place where they live or from which they came. There is nothing wrong with this but it is not applicable to our present situation.

The modernists are those Muslims who strive to make Islam compatible with the modern world. The trouble with this is that as we have seen the modernist world-view is fundamentally incompatible with Islam and the modern age has now come to an end in any case.

The fundamentalists want to return to fundamentals; they want to go back to the Book and the Sunna, hoping to find in the past the key to the present. The trouble with this position is that the past can never be recovered and imitation of it can never be more than just that.

Most Muslims view Islam as a more or less rigid structure with an independent existence that you somehow get hold of and apply to the situation you are in it. The difference between the various types of Muslims concerns the exact shape that the structure is reckoned to take.

However, to view it in this way is to fundamentally misunderstand the Islamic phenomenon. Islam is not a structure, it is a process. It is not a template that came down out of the sky to be picked up and used again and again like a suit of clothes to be handed on from generation to generation, it is an organic growth pattern for human society. We could take the metaphor of an oak which starts as a shoot, becomes a sapling and matures into a magnificent tree giving food and shelter to many creatures and producing seeds. Some of these seeds, depending on the conditions will also, going through the same process, in their turn develop into mature oak trees. According to the type of soil, the amount of light and water, etc. these trees will flourish to a greater or lesser extent. Each one will be different but each one will at the same time be unmistakably an oak tree, just as the first one was, and also each in its turn will sooner or later die. But the process will continue.

What is needed now is a new growth of Islam completely distinct from any discrete form that Islam has taken in the past. We have to bring out a new growth of Islam from the very texture of our own time, an expression of Islam that will embrace and encompass and absorb and transform the classical tradition of Greece and the European tradition I have been talking about which has now reached to the point where it is once more potentially open to Divine Guidance.

We cannot go back to the Book and the Sunna. This would suggest that Allah's Book is a historical document, something from the distant past and that the Sunna was like an ancient suit of armour. The Qur'an is the uncreated word of Allah, outside space and time. We must rediscover the ayats in the present, reflect on them anew, seek out their light and energy and make them our springboard for the re-establishment of Allah's guidance. The Sunna is the archetypal record of how human perfection, in the person of the Prophet, salla'llahu 'alayhi wa sallam, turned divine guidance into a living reality and how he and his Companions, radiya'llahu 'anhum ajma'in, transformed themselves and their situation. To follow the Sunna, we must discover something of the qualities of the Prophet in ourselves, transform ourselves in the way the Companions did, transform our situation as they did theirs. In other words, we must go forwards to the Book and Sunna, not back to them. The people of our time need Islam freshly cooked, not reheated. We must have the thing itself not an imitation. Nothing else will do.

This is certainly not a task for the faint-hearted. It will require great courage, total commitment and absolute trust in Allah. What is needed is a new generation of Muslims who have jettisoned their pre-conceptions of Islam, new men and women ready and able to face the challenge of this new age, capable of transforming themselves and the society they live in, capable of breaking out of the enslaving enchantment of the modernist perspective with its illusory shadow-show politics and real economic domination, able to grasp the opportunities opened up by the new world view, determined to establish Allah's deen anew in all its simplicity and splendour. It is quite clear that the way is open and that there is no alternative course of action possible and if we do not take it on ourselves there are certainly other people who will."

[syilla]

MashaAllah snakelegs, you can write a book on review of other books.

lol

Jazakallah khayr for sharing with us.

[snakelegs]

A man once approached imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal and exclaimed that he has no knowledge at all, but in return imam Ahmad humbly replied "but i have its fruits, i have the taqwa of Allah".

if you can read one paragraph of islamic text and gain such deep rooted fear of Allah then you have the knowledge (in my understanding), why? because! your depth of understanding and wisdom is such that you managed to gain the essence of whats being said and didnt have to go around memorising thousands of other scriptures.

i hope that makes sense...

yes, that makes a lot of sense.

[rubiesand]

the implications of all this have not, in my opinion, even begun to sink in. (i see that here in a lot of the stuff atheists write).

Yeah I thought the same. We can hope that it will eventually work its way through society just as the old views of the world did, and how that will change everything is difficult to imagine but I think Muslims can anticipate that time with excitement. However, there is no room for Muslims to be complacent.

[snakelegs]

Yes it is.

Related by Ibn Adee (2/207)m Abu Nu’aym in ‘Akhbaar Asbahaan’ and others via many routes of narration, and all of them adding the words "for indeed seeking knowledge is an obligatory duty upon all Muslims."

Ibn al-Jawzee mentions this and then quotes Ibn Hibbaan saying, "invalid/rejected, it has no basis" ‘al-Mawdoo’aat’ (1/215)]

Adh-Dhahabee also endorsed the above words of Ibn Hibbaan, [‘Tarteeb al-Mawdoo’aat’ of Adh-Dhahabee (pg. 52 no. 111)] and likewise as-Sakhaawee [‘Maqaasid al-Hasanah’ (pg. 86 no. 125)]

Al-Albaanee declares this hadeeth to be mawdoo (fabricated) [‘Da’eef al-Jaami as-Sagheer’ (no’s 1005-1006)]

In summary, the above hadeeth is related by a group of trustworthy narrators without the words "even if it be to China" and a few narrators who are deemed weak; liars; abandoned by the scholars narrate this additional wording. So the Ahaadeeth with the additional wording is fabricated, but without is hasan (good). [See ‘Silsilah ad-Da’eefah’ (1/600 no. 416) for detail.]

ok but it still shows that knowledge is much valued in islam, china or no china. (i kinda liked the china part...)
this is one of the things i like about islam - the high value given to knowledge.
in summary, i think it would be safe to say that knowledge in islam is a broader concept than in the secular world, because it includes knowledge of the unseen as well as the seen? so for example, when the muslim studies biology or chemistry, it too is a form of worship. some of the quotes in this thread also illustrate this.
as i said, i have very little formal education and whatever i have learned has been on my own. but i have found that the more i learned, the more in awe i became and this is one of the main things that has led me to believe in god, whereas most of my life, i didn't concern myself with whether or not god existed.
i'm sorry if i've gone blahblahblah too much in this thread. :-[
thanks, all. syilla - i hope to get to your articles tomorrow.
does anyone have comments on the last part of the article from the link given by rubiesand that i pasted?

[Musalmaan]

also some explain knowledge as "to know what to do at the present time."

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

ok but it still shows that knowledge is much valued in islam, china or no china. (i kinda liked the china part...)
this is one of the things i like about islam - the high value given to knowledge.
in summary, i think it would be safe to say that knowledge in islam is a broader concept than in the secular world, because it includes knowledge of the unseen as well as the seen? so for example, when the muslim studies biology or chemistry, it too is a form of worship. some of the quotes in this thread also illustrate this.
as i said, i have very little formal education and whatever i have learned has been on my own. but i have found that the more i learned, the more in awe i became and this is one of the main things that has led me to believe in god, whereas most of my life, i didn't concern myself with whether or not god existed.
i'm sorry if i've gone blahblahblah too much in this thread. :-[
thanks, all. syilla - i hope to get to your articles tomorrow.
does anyone have comments on the last part of the article from the link given by rubiesand that i pasted?

Hi,

It's obvious that article was written by a modernist, though he/she criticises modernists it is clear that they are trying to modernise Islam. What is the benefit of saying one thing and doing something else?

What is needed now is a new growth of Islam completely distinct from any discrete form that Islam has taken in the past. We have to bring out a new growth of Islam from the very texture of our own time, an expression of Islam that will embrace and encompass and absorb and transform the classical tradition of Greece and the European tradition I have been talking about which has now reached to the point where it is once more potentially open to Divine Guidance.

We cannot go back to the Book and the Sunna. (?!!!) This would suggest that Allah's Book is a historical document, something from the distant past and that the Sunna was like an ancient suit of armour. The Qur'an is the uncreated word of Allah, outside space and time. We must rediscover the ayats in the present, reflect on them anew, seek out their light and energy and make them our springboard for the re-establishment of Allah's guidance. The Sunna is the archetypal record of how human perfection, in the person of the Prophet, salla'llahu 'alayhi wa sallam, turned divine guidance into a living reality and how he and his Companions, radiya'llahu 'anhum ajma'in, transformed themselves and their situation. To follow the Sunna, we must discover something of the qualities of the Prophet in ourselves, transform ourselves in the way the Companions did, transform our situation as they did theirs. In other words, we must go forwards to the Book and Sunna, not back to them. The people of our time need Islam freshly cooked, not reheated. We must have the thing itself not an imitation. Nothing else will do.

I would say that was almost completely false in its entirety. The only thing I liked about that piece was when the author said the Qur'an isn't created. At least he/she has one of the fundamentals.

Where the author says 'We cannot go back to the Book and the Sunnah', I reiterate the words of 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ood;

"Follow and do not innovate, for you have been given that which is sufficient and every innovation is misguidance." Reported by Abu Khaithamah in Kitaab Ul-'Ilm (no. 540) and declared saheeh by Shaikh al-Albaanee.

Al-'Irbaad ibn Saariyah, , reports that the Prophet said, ".... I have left you upon clear guidance. Its night is like its day. No one deviates from it after me except that he is destroyed." Reported by Ahmad, Ibn Maajah (no. 43) and al-Haakim. It is declared saheeh by Shaikh al-Albaanee in as-Saheehah (no. 937).

Therefore whatever spiritual 'revolution' this character wants to create, it is Baatil. We follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah upon the understanding of the first three generations of Muslims (the salaf), since Allah's Messenger (SAW) stated that they are the best generation.

Shaykh al-Barbaharee (D. 329H Rahimahullah) Also states: May Allah have mercy upon you. Know that the Religion is what came from Allaah, the Blessed and the Most High. It is not something left to the intellect and opinions of men. Knowledge of it is what comes from Allaah and His Messenger, so do not follow anything based upon your desires and so deviate away from the Religion and leave Islam. There will be no excuse for you since Allaah's Messenger explained the Sunnah to his Ummah and made it clear to his Companions and they are the Jamaa'ah and they are the Main Body, and the Main Body is the truth and its followers.

[rubiesand]

It's obvious that article was written by a modernist, though he/she criticises modernists it is clear that they are trying to modernise Islam.

Assalamu alaikum sister,

I would disagree with you here. It is not a call to modernism. He is saying that Modernism has run its course and is now all but dead, and even if it wasn't it is still incompatible with Islam. He is calling for a transformation of Muslims in the light of the Quran and Sunnah, as the early Muslims were transformed, but in doing that we cannot pretend that we can be exactly the same as the early generation. It's not about imitating our noble ancestors but letting Islam work on us directly. As he says, Islam is not a structure that we fit ourselves into, but 'an organic growth pattern for human society'.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Assalamu alaikum sister,

I would disagree with you here. It is not a call to modernism. He is saying that Modernism has run its course and is now all but dead, and even if it wasn't it is still incompatible with Islam.

:wasalamex ukhtee

This contradicts his saying, 'We cannot go back to the Book and the Sunnah'. If we cannot go back to this, then what can we go back to?

He is calling for a transformation of Muslims in the light of the Quran and Sunnah, as the early Muslims were transformed, but in doing that we cannot pretend that we can be exactly the same as the early generation. It's not about imitating our noble ancestors but letting Islam work on us directly. As he says, Islam is not a structure that we fit ourselves into, but 'an organic growth pattern for human society'.

So why did he say we cannot go back to the Qur'an and Sunnah? He's using a lot of euphemisms. It's obvious what the underlying intention is.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

also some explain knowledge as "to know what to do at the present time."

this perfectly defines imam abu hanifa, rahmatullah alaih, always prepared for everything subhanaAllah :)

[rubiesand]

So why did he say we cannot go back to the Qur'an and Sunnah?

I hear you sister, but what i get from his article is that if we say that we should go back to the Quran and Sunnah we are really saying that they are set in the past, but actually they are not. They are for all times until Yawm ad Din.

[snakelegs]

thanks for sharing your thoughts on the article.
i sort of took it that modern science - physics specifically - has validated the islamic belief that there is no division between the material and non-material. (even though most have yet to catch on). muslims who sought education in the west had come to accept this false dichotomy (in which the spiritual was regarded as inferior to the material) and now it is proven false by science itself.
the rest i understood the way rubiesand did.

[Musalmaan]

knowledge is to know what our Rabb wants from us.

[snakelegs]

this makes sense, of course.
my question was about those muslims who say a person doesn't need what they refer to as "secular" education - to be given skills to make a living. i wanted clarification to an earlier post.

[syilla]

this makes sense, of course.
my question was about those muslims who say a person doesn't need what they refer to as "secular" education - to be given skills to make a living. i wanted clarification to an earlier post.

This is where the muslims have to define which ilm (knowledge) that is useful and which is useless.

As narrated from the Holy Prophet (SAWS) that:

Ask God for useful knowledge, and seek refuge in God from useless knowledge. [4]

4. Ibn Majah, op.cit., Sec. 34, No. 3843.

Among the great supplications reported from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is his saying “and I seek refuge with You from useless knowledge” (At-Tabarani)

In another hadith he stated “Some forms of knowledge are ignorance.” [3]

[3] Narrated by Abu Dawud 5012

Because as you know some ilm is unneccessary and only for the benefit of mankind (wealth and enjoyment) and some can cause destruction to the humankind.

Thats why some scholars said knowledge of music are useless.

And i also need a clarification whether it is true that useless knowledge is one the punishment of the grave.

[snakelegs]

This is where the muslims have to define which ilm (knowledge) that is useful and which is useless.

As narrated from the Holy Prophet (SAWS) that:

Ask God for useful knowledge, and seek refuge in God from useless knowledge. [4]

4. Ibn Majah, op.cit., Sec. 34, No. 3843.

Because as you know some ilm is unneccessary and only for the benefit of mankind (wealth and enjoyment) and some can cause destruction to the humankind.

Thats why some scholars said knowledge of music are useless.

And i also need a clarification whether it is true that useless knowledge is one the punishment of the grave.

in the end, it is common sense. actually this is what i thought, but that one post made me wonder.
i confess i have not yet read the 1st link you provided but i haven't forgotten either - just haven't has enough time and peace and quiet to concentrate.
i am not very knowledgeable but a great deal of the knowledge i have gained has served to cause me to believe in god. (i used to be neutral on whether or not god existed).

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I hear you sister, but what i get from his article is that if we say that we should go back to the Quran and Sunnah we are really saying that they are set in the past, but actually they are not. They are for all times until Yawm ad Din.

:salamext:

Again, if you look at that extract in it's entirety, a different picture is painted.

What is needed now is a new growth of Islam completely distinct from any discrete form that Islam has taken in the past

.

A new growth of Islam, that is completely distinct from any form of Islam in the past?! No, we follow Islam the same way the Prophet (SAW), the companions and the pious successors followed Islam. To suggest that we need a 'new growth of Islam' is to imply that the Islam that the Prophet (SAW) came with is not perfect and universal. And that is obviously baatil.

The saying, 'We cannot go back to the Book and the Sunna' Is explained by the following words from the article:

We must rediscover the ayats in the present, reflect on them anew, seek out their light and energy and make them our springboard for the re-establishment of Allah's guidance.

This is a mistake. We understand the ayaat the way they were always understood. The Qur'an is explained by the Sunnah, and the Sunnah is explained by the consensus of the pious successors. And whoever has left the sunnah, it is as if he has left Islam. Because Islam and the Sunnah are synonomous.

To follow the Sunna, we must discover something of the qualities of the Prophet in ourselves, transform ourselves in the way the Companions did, transform our situation as they did theirs.

The companions never 'transformed' anything. Rather they immitated the sunnah of the Prophet (SAW) as perectly as they could, and verily they are the best of generations - as stated by the Prophet (SAW).

Umm ad-Darda' said: "One day Abud-Darda' came in angry, I asked him, "What was the problem?' he said 'I recognised nothing of people's practices which belong to Muhammad salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam except that they pray togther' " Bukhari.

Abdullah ibn Mas'ood said "Verily, we emulate and do not initiate, and we folllow and do not innovate." Reported by al-Laalikaa'ee in Usoolul-I'tiqaad, 1/189.

Abu Bakr as-Sideeq said, "Indeed, I am a follower and not an innovator." Reported in Kitaabus-Sifaat of Ibn Qudaamah al-Maqdisee in the chapter 'Fee Fadaa'ilil-Ittibaa' and it is taken from the long khutbah of Abu Bakr after the pledge of alleigance, refer to At-Tareekh.

'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood said, after encountering a people who committing a bid'ah, "Count your sins and I guarantee that none of your good deeds will be lost. Woe to you, O Ummah of Muhammad! How fast is your distruction. The companions of the Prophet are still around, and his clothes are not warn out yet (meaning the Prophet's) and his utensils are not broken yet. By the One in Whose hand is my life, you are either following a religion better than the deen of Muhammad, or charging into a gate of deviation.' They said, 'By Allah, O Abu Abdurrahman, we only intended to do good.' He said 'How many who intend to do good, but never accomplish it. The Messenger of Allah (SAW) told us that there are some people who read the Qur'an but it never passes beyond their throats. By Allah, the majority of you people belong to those people.' Then he left them. Amt ibn Salamah commented, "We saw the majority of those people fighting against us with the Khawarij in the battle of Nahrawan." Ad-Daarimee.

In other words, we must go forwards to the Book and Sunna, not back to them. The people of our time need Islam freshly cooked, not reheated. We must have the thing itself not an imitation.

I wish he/she would stop speaking about Islam like it's some kind of art piece that can be played around with. Islam is a perfect system that was revealed by Allah, the All Mighty and the All Wise. Qiyaas (analogy) is only used after these three bases of the religion:

• The Qur'an
• The Sunnah
• The consensus of the salaf

And even then, the analogy is thrown against the wall if it contradicts something in the sharee'ah.

This lecture addresses this issue:

Explanation of the Creed by Imam Barbaharee (Arabic with english translation)

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Imaam Abu Haneefah (rahimahullaah) said:

"Adhere to the Athaar (narrations) and the Tareeqah (way) of the Salaf and beware of newly invented matters, for all of it is innovation."
Reported by As-Suyootee in Sawn al-Mantaq Wal -Kalaam, p. 32.