format_quote Originally Posted by
islamirama
yes, result of state terrorism which must be stopped at all cost!
especially...
US in Iraq, afghan
UK in Iraq , afghan
Israel in palestine
India in kashmir
Ethopian (backed by US) in somalia
Putting Terrorism in Perspective
Greetings, islamirama
I understand the point you are making. Atrocities and war crimes are being committed in these places.
Whether or not they can be compared to terrorism acts such as suicide bombings, is debatable.
Whether the above wars/occupations drive people to become desperate enough to resort to suicide bombings, would also be worth a debate.
But the point Muhammed Abdul Bari is making (in my mind), is a very different one:
He makes the statement that
"It is our Islamic duty not only to utterly and totally condemn such evil actions, but to provide all the necessary support to prevent such atrocities from taking place."
This is specifically with regards to the actions by Muslim terrorists, which have happened in the UK.
Muhammed Abdul Bari statement does not relate to atrocities committed by other people in other places - he is concerned about the Islamic conduct of Muslims.
Please note that he is
not condoning war crimes/terrorism acts/atrocities committed by non-Muslims. He is just not mentioning them.
His concern is for the 'Islamic duty' of every Muslim.
Do you agree with his statement about the duty of every Muslims?
Do you want to share if and how you voted in the poll?
Peace
ReplyMustafaMc
07-06-2007, 11:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by
glo
Greetings, Mustafa
I am not sure how the hadith relates to Muhammed Abdul Bari'a statement.
Can you elaborate you point of view?
Do you see the 'oppressing brother' in the hadith as the Muslim who resorts to terrorism acts? If so, how do prevent him from committing such acts?
(I am assuming the term 'brother' in the hadith relates to a fellow Muslim, therefore I don't think you are speaking about oppressing non-Muslims)
Or have I misunderstood you? :-[
Peace
glo,
To quote you from below where it seems that you captured the central point:
format_quote Originally Posted by
glo
But the point Muhammed Abdul Bari is making (in my mind), is a very different one:
He makes the statement that "It is our Islamic duty not only to utterly and totally condemn such evil actions, but to provide all the necessary support to prevent such atrocities from taking place."
Thank you for insisting on waiting for my personal reply to my post to avoid the possibility of putting words into my mouth that I hadn't intended.:)
format_quote Originally Posted by
MustafaMc
The hadith below captures my point of view.
Bukhari hadith 3:624 Allah's Apostle said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one." People asked, "O Allah's Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others."
The point is that we should help our Muslim brother or sister if he/she is being oppressed by stopping the one who is oppressing (killing, raping, torturing, stealing from, etc.) the Muslim. Likewise, if our Muslim brother or sister is oppressing (killing, raping, torturing, stealing from, etc.) someone else (
whether or not that other person is a Muslim), then we are obligated to stop him/her from his oppression.
Intentional killing of innocent people by flying a plane into a building or setting off a bomb in a public bus or in a subway/train or in a resturaunt is oppression. Setting off a roadside IED when a Humvee carrying soldiers passes by that accidentally kills civilians in an occupied country is unfortunate, but it is not oppression.
How would I stop a Muslim from terrorist acts? First, I would (and already have) talk to Muslims who support such terroristic acts such as suicide or car bombing of civilians and try to convince them that this act is un-Islamic. If they insist upon carrying out the act and if I was knowledgeable of their plan, then I would report it to the authorities. I would be guilty of the same act if I did not do my best to stop it.
As I stated in my initial post the hadith captures MY personal point of view on Muhammed Abdul Bari's statement.
ReplySkywalker
07-07-2007, 11:32 AM
I voted 'other'.
The explanation to that is a long one, but to sum it up, I do think that we should do our best to condemn and speak out against the evil actions done in the name of Islam, BUT siding with the likes of Bush and Blair in their campaigns agaist terror, I don't agree to. For one, if you suspect someone of being a terrorist yet you have no solid proof, and you report them, what guarantee do you have that they won't be whisked away to Guantanamo...or worse...and suffer torture, humiliation, and not see their family for years because you 'suspected' them? By utilizing illegal means of interrogation and detention, the US and their allies, our "saviors from terror" (yeah right), have made it harder for people to trust them and in a way increased the chance that a terrorist will go on unreported. Other than that, you don't know the true agendas of the US and the UK governments. They've lied over and over again about a multitude of issues, so they are not as clean as they would have us think, maybe they're even worse than the actual terrorists that they want to destroy.
What we can do is speak out against terrorism like the UK Muslims are doing, may Allah reward them, as well as educate our youth so that they don't fall victim to the radical elements infecting our ummah. That's what I think anyway, Allah knows best.
Replymariam.
07-12-2007, 12:21 PM
of course I agree .. that's not our free choice, it's what GOD order us to do.
Allah says in his Noble Qur'an:
" Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidence, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land! " (5:38)
In another ayah Allah mentions some qualities of His righteous slaves as He says what can be translated as :
" And those who invoke not any other god along with Allah, nor kill such person as Allah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse - and whoever does this shall receive the punishment. " (25:68)
Moreover, there are many Prophetical Ahadith where the Prophet Peace be upon him calls believers to respect and to protect the humanitarian life. So he said that killing a person is one of the greatest sins ,which the polytheism and killing the life and He also said, "A faithful believer remains within the sphere of his religion unless he kills somebody unlawfully".
Fighting in Islam was legitimated basically to prevent transgression, Allah says what can be translated as, " And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah(polytheism) is worse than killing. " (1:190,191).
The Noble Qur'an has given Muslims the legislative right of defense, Allah says what can be translated as, " And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah(polytheism) is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-Al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.". (1: 190-194).
Islam gave the permission of war to ward off aggression against Muslims, So Allah says what can be translated as : " Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged; and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory. Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said: "Our Lord is Allah." For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of Allah is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down. Verily, Allah will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, Allah is All-Strong, All-Mighty." (22:39,40)
Also Allah says what can be translated as: " And if you punish (your enemy, O you believers in the Oneness of Allah), then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, verily, it is better for (the patient). " (16: 126).
Islam has given Muslims the permission to fight against treacherous and those who broke the treaties of Conventions that were made between Islamic countries and other countries. Regarding this, Allah says what can be translated as, " Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allah are those who disbelieve. So they shall not believe. They are those with whom you made a covenant, but they break their covenant every time and they do not fear Allah. So if you gain the mastery over them in war, punish them severely in order to disperse those who are behind them, so that they may learn a lesson " (8 :55,58).
Allah says what can be translated as, " With regard to a believer, they respect not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who are the transgressors. But if they repent, perform As-Salât (prayer) , and give Zakât (charity), then they are your brethren in religion. (In this way) We explain the (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for a people who know. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism, then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions). Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah), and intended to expel the Messenger while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."
(9:10,14).
Islam also has permitted war for the sake of saving and upholding the oppressed people. Allah says what can be translated as, " And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, ill-treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help. " (4:75)
and He says what can be translated as, " Verily, those who believed, and emigrated and strove hard and fought with their property and their lives in the Cause of Allah as well as those who gave (them) asylum and help, - these are (all) allies to one another. And as to those who believed but did not emigrate (to you O Muhammad), you owe no duty of protection to them until they emigrate; but if they seek your help in religion, it is your duty to help them except against a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance; and Allah is the All-Seer of what you do. And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively) do not do so [i.e. become allies, as one united block under one Khalifa (a chief Muslim ruler for the whole Muslim world) to make victorious Allah's religion of Islamic Monotheism], there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism) and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism)." (8:72,73).
Furthermore, In two prophetical Hadiths , Prophet peace be upon him gave advice to both Ali Ibn-Abu-Taleb and Mu'adh Ibn-Jabal in two different battles saying, "Don't fight them until you invite them to Islam. if they refuse, don't begin fighting until they kill one from you. Then, show them this killed Muslim and say, don't you accept what is much better than fighting ?!! it is to testify that there is no god but Allah (faith confession in Islam ) because, if Allah guides one man on your hands, this will be better than having all what on the whole earth".
In all his battles, the Prophet peace be upon him advised the army leaders and said, "Go ahead in the name of Allah, and by the blessing of his Messenger. Don't kill an old man, or a child, or a young person or a woman. Don't betray. Act in the Right way, and do good, truly Allah loves the good-doers". And He forbade also mutilating dead bodies as he said: " I warn you of mutilating the killed, even if it was a slaughter dog". He (SAWS) said also: " Don't kill women, or children, or those who are in the monasteries."
Also Abu-Bakr Al Siddiq (the verifier ), the 1st caliph to Muslims advised the first military expedition's leader in his era, Osama Bin Zaid saying: "Don't betray. Don't take illegally a part of booty. Don't mutilate the dead bodies. Don't kill a child, or an old man, or a woman. Do not cut down or burn palm trees and don't cut down a fruity tree. Don't slaughter a sheep, or a cow or a camel except for food. You will find on your way people who claim to have totally given themselves to Allah. Leave them to what they claim to have given themselves".
In his advice to his army leader headed for al-sham (The Levant), Abu-Bakr said to Abu-Bakr Yazed Ibn-Abu-Sufyan adding to what was said before " And never fight a wounded man, because a part of him is not his(likening the wounded part to the dead which is not to be put to torture at your hands ) . Speak a little as it suffices you what people have understood from you Accept people 's public deeds and entrust their secrets to Allah. Don't confine your soldiers, lest you should disgrace them ; don't neglect them, because you may spoil them. I place you in the trust of Allah, whose trust is never misplaced."
In addition, The Caliph Omar Ibnul-Khattab has advised his leader of the army saying: " Go In the name of Allah, and with His help. Go with Allah's support. You'll have victory by staying in the battle and being patient. Fight and transgress not the limits, truly Allah likes not the transgressors. Don't be coward when meeting the enemy. Never mutilate when you've the ability to do so. Don't exceed the limits in the matter of taking life when you're the winners. Don't kill an old man, or a woman, or a child and avoid killing them as much as possible and when the heat of the battle grows and becomes fiercer , make your fight only for the sake of God not for vainglory of this life ,then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme "
These Commandments in Jihad (war) ethics are more exalted, more perfect, more righteous, and more gracious than all what human's legislation contains. Hence, it's more higher than what the rules of modern international law in general reached and international humanitarian law in particular
There's a great difference between Islam's ethics in war and what is happening in Palestine for more than half a century, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Chechnya. In the name of what they destruct houses over the heads of their residents ,be it old men, children, or women?. It's in the name of democracy and reform?
Let Arab marines and hypocrites read those commandments to realize that, they sold the Hereafter for a cheap false world. The world that is not equal a mosquito's wing. Let Muslims' jurists in the international law raise their heads very high and say to the West and its jurists: "this is our religion which speaks the truth since more than fourteen centuries. The religion that legislate, formulate, and implement what you didn't reach in the century of Human rights and civilization.
Moreover, Islam has put a clear way in dealing with prisoners of war. This way has the essence of honor, preserve the dignity of the prisoner, and the maintenance of his life. In Qur'an there's many ayas that exhort us to honor war prisoners.
Allah almighty says what can be translated as, "After this, it is you who kill one another and drive out a party of you from their homes, assist (their enemies) against them, in sin and transgression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their expulsion was forbidden to you. Then do you believe in a part of the Scripture and reject the rest? Then what is the recompense of those who do so among you, except disgrace in the life of this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall be consigned to the most grievous torment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do." (2:85).
Also Allah almighty says what can be translated as:" O Prophet (Muhammad) Say to the captives that are in your hands! "If Allah knows any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. "(8:70,71).
In Allah says what can be translated as, "And they give food, inspite of their love for it (or for the love of Him), to the poor, the orphan, and the captive"
(76:8).
On the other hand, if we look to the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him either what the Prophet said or did or agreed to during his life, we'll find it very much and need volumes but we'll refer only to the most important of it. As he said : " Fear God regarding prisoners of war" / "Take care of prisoners of war"
The messenger of Allah peace be upon him has forbidden harming or doing any injustice to prisoners of war as the Hadith says , "on the authority of Shihab as he said," Accompanied by a prisoners of wars , Abo-Baker once passed by Sohib while he was sitting in the mosque , on seeing him , Sohib said " who is this with you ? " "He is a prisoner of war ; I am going to ask the prophet's protection for him " replied Abo-Baker . " there seem to be what could be the effect of a sword in his neck !!" Said Sohib ; Abo-Bakr got angry as a result and headed to the prophet ; on seeing him as so , prophet Mohummed said " why are you angry ?" " I passed with my prisoner by Sohib ,who said he saw the sign of a sword in my prisoner's neck " prophet Mohummed said " Mind you didn't cause him any harm !!" Abo Bakr said " I swear by God , I didn't ."If you had harmed him . you would have disobeyed and displeased God and His messenger ." prophet Mohummed said .
Look to the difference between that and what's happening in the prison of Gwantanamo and Abu-Ghraib, in Palestine, in Iraq, and in Chechnya! Also look to what's happening in some other countries prisons. Tell me, where are Human Rights in that!!?.
In Islam even the killed persons have rights. In battles, the unbelievers corpse must be buried and never be let in streets until animals eat them, as we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan now .
This is just a few of the many and a drop of water in the Islam's wide ocean of generosity . I mention this to distinguish between the right path and the wrong one, the Truth and the falsehood, and the difference between our civilization and their civilization.Also to make those who have brain and heart to understand.
peace
Reply
format_quote Originally Posted by
MustafaMc
I agree with your point, but just because someone disagrees with the statement it doesn't mean that he agrees with the terrorists. Perhaps, it means that those who disagree do not trust the authorities enough to "turn in" and report suspicious activities of their Muslim brothers.
Mr Bari's statement was "It is our Islamic duty
not only to utterly and totally condemn such evil actions, but
to provide all the necessary support to prevent such atrocities from taking place."
Would it be fair to say that in your example given above people may agree with the first part of the statement, but not necessarily the second?
We are all too aware of Gitmo Bay and Abu Ghraib prisons where many innocent Muslims have been and are presently imprisoned and tortured.
Yes, we are aware of that ... :(
Tough as it may be, I believe Mr Bari is calling Muslims to hold true to his above statement, despite the unfairness which is committed against Muslims in some places.
But notice that he is
not calling Muslims to condone any bad treatment Muslims are receiving! Indeed he doesn't comment on that at all.
Perhaps he doesn't mention it deliberately.
Justifying
one wrong as a reaction to
another wrong, may be understandable ... but it still isn't the
right thing to do ...
Each wrong should be dealt with and condemned in its own right!
Peace
ReplySkywalker
07-19-2007, 07:51 AM
What just struck me as I was reading this is...who are the real victinms of 9/11? I mean obviously the people in the planes and in the towers are victims, and if it was Muslims who did that to them, then they did them a favour in the next life by sending them to heaven, while they themselves reside in Hell. However, what about what happened after 9/11 as a result of it? There are hundreds if not thousands of people, some later confirmed to be innocent, taken from their families for years, tortured, humiliated, traumatized, some even dead from suicide...while at the same time you have hundreds of thousands dead in both Afghanistan and Iraq, again, the majority of them innocent civilians. Let's not forget people like Khaled El-Masry, who got kidnapped by the CIA, flown around the world for interrogation and torture, then dumped naked in the street somewhere in Macedonia if I remember correctly. These stories are an indication of what can happen if you report a Muslim brother whom you suspect to be a terrorist.
If there are further attacks on the US or the UK I wouldn't be surprised. In a way, they've dug their own graves with their inhumanity. If they were fair...and heck if they made it look a little less like a war on Islam, people might actually be willing to help them out.
ReplyUbaidah
07-21-2007, 01:54 PM
:sl:
Of course I voted with a BIG yes. I feel that any loss of innocent life in unacceptable. I feel that way if the U.S. takes an innocent life, Hamas, or by a drug dealer down the street. I despise war. But I understand that the way of the world is for military action in order to keep oneself save, by a threat or "perceived threat". But when military conflict takes the lives of the general population, it breaks my heart. Israeli, Palestinian, Iraqi, ect., it's just terrible period.
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