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Muezzin
07-05-2007, 02:10 PM
The captured leader of Pakistan's Red Mosque has called on his nearly 1,000 followers still inside the complex to surrender or flee, as the country's military appears to be preparing to end the standoff.

Dozens of students earlier surrendered at the mosque and religious school in central Islamabad on Thursday.

Witnesses reported hearing explosions, which the military called "warning blasts", and sporadic gunfire.

Rageh Omaar, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Islamabad, said: "There's been intermittent gunfire and I can smell some teargas and two large explosions as well, but it's controlled firing."

He said a huge number of Pakistani troops were massing together.

Burqa escape bid

Pakistani officials refused to give details on an assault and barred journalists from entering the area.

Abdul Aziz Ghazi, the leader of the mosque, also known as Lal Masjid, was arrested by security forces on Wednesday night after trying to escape the compound in a full-length burqa.

In an interview broadcast on state television on Thursday, he said about 850 students remained inside, including 600 women and girls, and 14 men who were armed with Kalashnikovs.

Abdul Aziz, who began the interview wearing a burqa, said the people still inside would not be able to hold out for long.

Smiling through much of the interview, he said he left the mosque to stop the bloodshed, and had urged others to do the same, but some women teachers had persuaded girls to stay behind.

The depuy leader of the mosque, Abdul Aziz's brother Abdul Rashid Ghazi, remains inside.

Ready for talks

Speaking to Al Jazeera's correspondent, Abdul Rashid said that about 2,000 students remained inside and said the conflict did not need to end in bloodshed.

Abdul Rashid had said on Wednesday that he was prepared to talk with the government, but added: "We will continue to defend ourselves".

He said the mosque had enough supplies to carry on "until God wants".

The siege began when the Pakistani army surrounded the mosque on Wednesday, a day after at least 16 people were killed in clashes between security forces and armed activists from the mosque.

Liberal politicians had been pressing Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's president, for months to crack down on the brothers running the Red Mosque.

Musharraf himself has accused the mosque of sheltering al-Qaeda members.

The students carried out a series of provocative acts over the past six months, demanding the enforcement of Islamic law, and running a vigilante anti-vice campaign.

Abdul Aziz had also threatened suicide attacks if force was used against his movement.

Amnesty offered

About 1,200 students walked out of the mosque compound on Wednesday in exchange for a pardon and a payment of $83 (5,000 rupees).

Tariq Azim, the deputy information minister, had said that all women and children would be granted amnesty, but men involved in killings and other crimes as well as mosque leaders would face legal action.

By the time a new deadline for surrender passed shortly after noon on Thursday, only around 66 students had walked out.

One who decided to give up, 15-year-old Maryam Qayyeum, said those who stayed in the religious school "only want martyrdom".

"They are happy," she said. "They don't want to go home."

Source
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Re.TiReD
07-05-2007, 02:12 PM
captured leader of Pakistan's Red Mosque has called on his nearly 1,000 followers still inside the complex to surrender or flee, as the country's military appears to be preparing to end the standoff.

:sl: and so they should! declaring a state of Jihad...ok may sound like a novel idea to some....but what those women did...I think its wrong....laa ikraaha fid'deen..there shall bo no compulsion in religion...and our job is to convey....NOT to convert! they cudda gone about their business in a better way... :w:
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-05-2007, 02:16 PM
yeah its amazing how shaytaan can turn good intentions into bad actions... obviously at some point the intention must have become bad...
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Chechnya
07-05-2007, 03:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ...FLaWeD...
:sl: and so they should! declaring a state of Jihad...ok may sound like a novel idea to some....but what those women did...I think its wrong....laa ikraaha fid'deen..there shall bo no compulsion in religion...and our job is to convey....NOT to convert! they cudda gone about their business in a better way... :w:
Salam

what women are you refering to and what did they do?
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KAding
07-06-2007, 10:19 PM
Fresh fighting at Pakistan mosque
Fresh fighting has erupted at the Red Mosque in Pakistan's capital, Islamabad, where a government siege of radical Islamists is in its fourth day.

Troops launched an assault as a group of students tried to leave the complex. Two students were killed, bringing the death toll to 21.

But President Pervez Musharraf has held back from a full assault, fearing casualties among women and children.

Earlier the mosque's deputy leader said he would rather die than surrender.

The BBC's Shoaib Hasan in Islamabad says a group of students tried to break out of the complex, sparking a co-ordinated assault on three sides by armoured personnel carriers and rangers.

Two students were killed in an exchange of fire and at least 10 wounded, four of them seriously.

But our correspondent says the clashes have died down and this has not been a full-scale attack.

Mosque deputy leader Abdul Rashid Ghazi said he would leave on certain conditions, including being allowed to look after his ailing mother.

Pakistani government ministers dismissed the deal and Mr Ghazi said he would not surrender unconditionally.

"We have decided that we can be martyred but we will not surrender. We are ready for our heads to be cut off but we will not bow to them," he said.

Mr Ghazi's brother Maulana Abdul Aziz - leader of the mosque - was earlier captured while trying to escape wearing a woman's burqa.

'Plane targeted'

Separately, Pakistan's media reported that Gen Musharraf's plane came under fire as it took off from a military base close to the capital.


Officials denied the reports, but police said they had found two anti-aircraft guns on a rooftop near the air base, in Rawalpindi. It was not clear if the guns had been fired.

Gen Musharraf, who has survived previous assassination attempts, was said to be unharmed.

It is believed several hundred religious students are still inside the complex, after more than 1,000 left under mounting pressure from security forces.

Officials said about 60 of those remaining are hard-liners, who have been at the vanguard of campaigning for the imposition of strict Islamic law (Sharia) in Islamabad.

The BBC's Barbara Plett in Islamabad says the government is piling psychological pressure on those still inside with a mass demonstration of force demanding unconditional surrender.

The view here is that the clerics want an honourable exit, but the president is determined to inflict absolute defeat on the Red Mosque, our correspondent says.

'Human shields'

Speaking in a telephone interview broadcast on Pakistani television, Mr Ghazi said he had told government mediator Chaudry Shujaat Hussain that his followers were ready to surrender.

But Mr Ghazi said he had insisted the authorities promise not to detain anyone who they could not prove belonged to any banned militant groups, or were not wanted for any crime.

The cleric also demanded a guarantee of safety for himself and his family, saying he wanted to remain on the premises with his sick mother until they were able to move elsewhere.

Deputy Information Minister Tariq Azim Khan said Mr Ghazi and the remaining students would have to lay down their arms unconditionally like all those who left the mosque since the violence began on Tuesday.

Earlier, Mr Khan accused the Red Mosque Islamists of using women and children as human shields, saying a number of them were being held hostage in the building's basement.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6278074.stm

I'm surprised noone here is talking about this? This is serious stuff, no? I gotta say I'm very confused about the whole affair, I still don't quite understand what this is about. Is the problem that the followers of this mosque are trying to apply Sharia law and that the government won't allow it?-
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learningislam
07-07-2007, 07:03 PM
:salamext:

This is what the news says........right.....the same we hear on tv. They are showing whats happening, but i dont know, i am curious to know the real truth. Whats going on behind the scenes?

Abdul Aziz, who began the interview wearing a burqa, said the people still inside would not be able to hold out for long.
My personal thought- to be honest, that interview seemed to be like a drama...........(i know the issue is serious- so many people have died) but why is this scene being dragged in the most dramatic way possible.

And especially, all this lal masjid issue starts floating as the Chief justice case is being taken up in the Supreme Court..........


Any views?

:wasalamex
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snakelegs
07-07-2007, 08:11 PM
well i don't know why it took the pakistani gov't so long to deal with this issue. i think even the people who want a shariah state, do not endorse this group. some parents came to get their kids and the students fired on them too.
anyway, here is the latest. i still hope this can be resolved without more bloodshed, but right now, it doesn't look like it.
this is just the beginning of the article. for the whole article go here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6280172.stm

Pakistan issues mosque ultimatum

Pakistan's president has issued an ultimatum to radical Islamists barricaded inside an Islamabad mosque.
President Pervez Musharraf told mosque leaders to free women and children and surrender "or they will be killed".

He spoke after troops outside the mosque stopped a delegation of Islamist politicians from entering to negotiate with those inside.

Hundreds of people are still inside the complex, which is surrounded by troops and armoured vehicles.

The delegates wanted to convince the mosque's leader, Abdul Rashid Ghazi, to allow women and children to leave.

Heavy bursts of gunfire and explosions rocked the Red Mosque overnight after armoured vehicles moved in and heavy exchanges of fire erupted at the complex early on Saturday.

Big chunks of debris, believed to be part of the mosque's perimeter wall, were blown high above the surrounding treetops.

Water and power to the mosque have been cut off and food is said to be getting scarce.
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^..sTr!vEr..^
07-07-2007, 08:43 PM
Pakistani Government....they r just planning to kill all the mujahideens so that they can carry on doing all this wickedness!! May Allah guide them or destroy them badly..Ameen!

Wamakaroo makran wamakarna makran wahum la yashAAuroona
27:50 They plotted and planned, but We too planned, even while they perceived it not.
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snakelegs
07-07-2007, 09:02 PM
they have given them the chance to come out and the gov't has more or less used restraint.
what is islamic about shooting at the parents who come to pick up their children??? is this the act of a mujahid?
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^..sTr!vEr..^
07-07-2007, 09:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
they have given them the chance to come out and the gov't has more or less used restraint.
Oh woooww!! Keep it up...m amazed at the way people have believed one-sided story so blindly!!??!!.. Ask us..we know how much are our government people concerned about the situation of public! Where are these self-controls and defences when their own people kill innocent muslims without any reasons.. And all on the liberty provided to them by this PAKISTANI GOVERNMENT' :rolleyes:


format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
what is islamic about shooting at the parents who come to pick up their children??? is this the act of a mujahid?

Astaghfirullah!! wht abt the bombardment...was it from those mujahids too....????
^o)
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fatima_01
07-07-2007, 10:23 PM
salaams ppl alot of u must hav read abt the fight in pakistan between the madressahs and the army or wateva so im kinda lost can any1 tell me wat are they actually fighting abt??? its kinda sad how divedid us muslims actually are
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snakelegs
07-07-2007, 10:25 PM
are you saying that the shooting at the parents didn't happen?
they have been trying to take the law in their own hands since january. the bombardment of the mosque was not done in the name of religion.
but enough of my opinions.
do you think pakistan should allow this group to establish shariah by force?
what do you think should happen next?
what do you think will happen next?
thanks.
just wanted to add here that i do not use mainstream media for my information sources.
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Amadeus85
07-07-2007, 10:30 PM
I have a question, why pakistani army attacked that mosque. What was the reason?
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doorster
07-07-2007, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
I have a question, why pakistani army attacked that mosque. What was the reason?
is it to hard to read the thread and follow the BBC news links given?
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Amadeus85
07-07-2007, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
is it to hard to read the thread and follow the BBC news links given?
Actually i need some short and easy explanation, if anyone cares anyway :D
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00:00
07-07-2007, 10:49 PM
Ameen
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siFilam
07-07-2007, 10:55 PM
In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

:salamext:

is it true that the red masjid imam Abdul Aziz tried to escape wearing a women's burka? I read it on BBC.

wasalam
-SI-
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fatima_01
07-07-2007, 10:56 PM
ye i read tht 2 but ye my dad also read it on a urdu newspaper
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Cognescenti
07-07-2007, 11:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Actually i need some short and easy explanation, if anyone cares anyway :D
Here is my take for wht it is worth. Hard liner uses mosque as personal fiefdom, recruits many hard liners to follow him and begins to take extra-legal actions to establish Islamic law. Musharraf is initially hesitant to act lest it provoke wide unrest. Instead, he assumes the ostrich starategy. It doesn't work. The radicals are emboldened. The military finally surrounds the mosque...<waves hands> a dozen or so people are killed....the cleric who had called for his followers to follow him whatever the cost instead tries to sneak out in a burka :D This undercuts his support among the public. 100-700 remain in the mosque and some may be hostages. This could end badly.
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snakelegs
07-07-2007, 11:18 PM
latest news is president pervez musharraf is telling them "surrender or die"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070707/...stan_mosque_dc
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snakelegs
07-07-2007, 11:22 PM
for those who support the people in lal masjid
do you think that it is acceptable in islam to bring about shariah by violence?
most muslims i've talked to who want shariah, think the methods they are using are haram.
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Woodrow
07-07-2007, 11:43 PM
I just merged the thread that was in General Chat with this one, before it gets too confusing to merge. There is information in both pertinent to the events. Let us try to keep this all in one thread
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snakelegs
07-08-2007, 12:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
wa'salaams
the Muslims are not divided in this issue.
so, all muslims think like you do and you are their spokesman? i never suspected that you all think alike - thanks for the info.
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KAding
07-09-2007, 02:02 PM
It seems like a private militia trying to undermine the authority of the state and break down the states monopoly on violence and law enforcement. It is not a good thing for Pakistan's stability.
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Keltoi
07-09-2007, 02:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
It seems like a private militia trying to undermine the authority of the state and break down the states monopoly on violence and law enforcement. It is not a good thing for Pakistan's stability.
I wouldn't be surprised if issues between India and Pakistan also heat up sometime in the near future.
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Bittersteel
07-09-2007, 02:19 PM
do you think that it is acceptable in islam to bring about shariah by violence?
for the weak,powerless,desperate and sometimes poverty stricken people who have no influence in state matters it is(mainly referring to the Red Mosque militants).
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Woodrow
07-09-2007, 02:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I wouldn't be surprised if issues between India and Pakistan also heat up sometime in the near future.
I can see India drooling now. I think at the moment they could gain some pro India supporters in Pakistan by coming forward with some strong anti-Musharaf statements. a division of Pakistan into Pro Mushy and anti Mushy factions would be an open door for India to walk in. Almost a plan for a three way division of Pakistan. Pro Mushy, Anti Mushy, Pro India.


EDIT: added the following
How can Pakistan ever have any pro-India supporters? Simple by using this opportunity to be anti-Mushy. Enough anger against somebody will give some people reason to follow Shaytan, if they believe he is against what they hate. I will be very surprised if India does not now become very verbal in attacking Musharaff
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Zman
07-09-2007, 04:42 PM
:sl:/ Peace To All


1. Pakistani Government Behind Lal Mosque Crisis

Pakistanis See A Conspiracy In Siege


Courtesy Of: NewsDay
By JAMES RUPERT
james.rupert@newsday.com
July 8, 2007

Many Pakistanis go farther, saying the drama is largely staged by "the agencies," [Pakistan's ISI and other security agencies], as they are called here.

Suggesting just that, Najam Sethi, one of the country's most distinguished journalists, wrote in the weekly Friday Times that:


"it is curious that the Lal Masjid affair has hogged the media precisely when [a] more substantive national issue" - Musharraf's attempt to oust the country's chief justice and manipulate the Supreme Court - has been hurting him politically.



2. Pakistani Government Undermining Peaceful Resolution To Crisis

Courtesy Of: IslamOnLine
08/07/2007
10:00:50 AM GMT

ISLAMABAD - Pakistani MPs and scholars mediating an end to the spiraling crisis of the controversial Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) accused Saturday, July 7, the Pakistani government of undermining their efforts to reach a peaceful solution to the standoff.
"Mualana (Abdul Rasheed) Ghazi had agreed to meet and talk to us," woman parliamentarian Samia Raheel Qazi told IslamOnline Saturday, July 7.

"But as soon as we reached near Red Mosque, security forces resorted to heavy firing and shelling making it impossible for us to proceed."

The 11-member delegation led by Sen. Kausar Firdaus met Ghazi, the mosque deputy leader, inside the besieged mosque on Friday night, July 6, to mull a peaceful solution to the crisis. They agreed to hold a new round of talks on Saturday morning.

But the delegation was initially blocked from reaching the battered mosque for three hours by the security forces.

Then security forces began pounding the mosque shortly after they entered the place of worship.

"We wanted to take possession of bodies for burial, injured for medical treatment and get the vulnerable children and women students out of the mosque and the (neighboring) madrassah," said Qazi.

"We tried to contact the higher authorities to work to stop firing so that we could proceed to the Mosque, however we failed. They didn't listen to us."

...The head of Ulema delegation, Shah Abdul Aziz, accused the security forces of mistreating the delegation.

"They misbehaved with us when we asked them to stop firing so that we could proceed to the Mosque," he told IOL.

Security forces arrested three mediators of the opposition six-party religious alliance Muttehida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA), including local leader Syed Bilal.

"He (Bilal) wanted to take a cache of medicines and food with him for the militants hiding in the Mosque," a security official told IOL, requesting anonymity.

...Qazi blasted what he called the government's double-talk.

"On the one hand, the government is appealing to the political and religious figures to help resolve the crisis, while on the other hand, it is creating hurdles in to fail our efforts," said Qazi.


"The only motive we have is to end this crisis peacefully and save hundreds of innocent lives."

She said that Pakistani religious scholars were against the practices of Ghazi and his brother.

"But we are also against the use of military force to suppress them," she noted.

"Both sides should exercise maximum restraint and show flexibility in their stance to save the lives of those who have nothing to do with the ongoing war of nerves."

...Pakistani security forces seemed in no hurry to end the crisis.


"We are not in a hurry," a senior security official told IOL, requesting anonymity.

"Our maximum effort will be to save each and every life. We never want to hurt the innocent female and children who are being used as human shield," he said.

...Ghazi on Thursday offered to surrender along with the armed students if he was given a safe passage to leave.

But the Pakistani government swiftly rebuffed the offer.

"The government has enough power and no one can stand before its might," said Musharraf, a key US ally.

...Pakistani officials estimated that there are between 50 to 60 students inside the mosque after 1,300 surrendered to the authorities.

But Ghazi has said there are 1,900 students in the compound, while his brother, who was captured...trying to escape...on Wednesday, put the number at 850, including 600 females.

Ghazi said that 70 people, including 30 women, have been killed in the fighting since Tuesday. But the government says only 19 people have been killed.

Via:
http://freethoughtmanifesto.blogspot...al-mosque.html
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doorster
07-09-2007, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I can see India drooling now. I think at the moment they could gain some pro India supporters in Pakistan by coming forward with some strong anti-Musharaf statements. a division of Pakistan into Pro Mushy and anti Mushy factions would be an open door for India to walk in. Almost a plan for a three way division of Pakistan. Pro Mushy, Anti Mushy, Pro India.


EDIT: added the following
How can Pakistan ever have any pro-India supporters? Simple by using this opportunity to be anti-Mushy. Enough anger against somebody will give some people reason to follow Shaytan, if they believe he is against what they hate. I will be very surprised if India does not now become very verbal in attacking Musharaff
:w:
of course as usual you are 100&#37; correct. It has happened before when India took East Pakistan under similar circumstances.


also need to bear in mind that many many deobandis have never been in favor of Pakistan as they want to rule the entire continent leading to ruling the Globe. (out of destruction of Pakistan will rise their "khilafah")
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
It seems like a private militia trying to undermine the authority of the state and break down the states monopoly on violence and law enforcement. It is not a good thing for Pakistan's stability.
You know state of Pakistan is like that of ye olde England, when there was lack of state orphanages and lack of education for common man, In situations like that there will be fagins who will Twist the minds of Olivers

Long term solution is simple
  1. State facilities for the destitute and orphans
  2. Free education
  3. Elimination of the Fagin like characters
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Woodrow
07-10-2007, 12:36 AM
I am not very happy when a thread deteriorates into personal arguments.

EDIT: Deleted personal posts. Thread Reopened
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Keltoi
07-10-2007, 03:06 PM
I was reading some news stories a minute ago and saw that the chief cleric of this mosque was killed in a raid.
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AmarFaisal
07-10-2007, 03:12 PM
I am tired of following up at the TV, it makes me sick now, I have been following this news since a few days.
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doorster
07-10-2007, 03:25 PM

Pakistan's Red Mosque leader killed



The Pakistani government says Ghazi was killed in the final stage of Tuesday's assault [AFP]

Pakistani security forces have killed Abdul Rashid Ghazi, the besieged leader of Lal Masjid, or Red Mosque, in Islamabad in a day-long assault on the complex, the interior ministry said.

Other reports said Ghazi was killed by (his) followers when he tried to surrender.

There was no way of independently verifying the claims. The Pakistani army also said up to 95 per cent of the compound had been cleared after more than 16 hours of fighting.

More than 50 armed fighters and eight soldiers have been killed so far in the raid, the military has said. Kamal Hyder, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Islamabad, said: "The fighting is really intense [and] is concentrating on the lower part of the building, some of the basement and a cave complex, we're told."

An Al Jazeera source said Uzbek fighters, armed with grenades and RPGs, were putting up the fiercest resistance and were also suspected of holding women and children hostage.

Hyder said it was unprecedented that Pakistan's elite force would struggle from before dawn into the evening to defeat the fighters.

"But the army is saying they are in control of the situatuion, they have already taken 95 per cent control, and the fighting is now slow, because they say they want to save maxiumum lives," Hyder said.

'Sanctity violated'


Major General Waheed Arshad, the chief military spokesman, told reporters on Tuesday that the armed students were firing on security forces from the minarets.


"About three or four terrorists have occupied the minarets. They are violating the sanctity of the mosque," Arshad said.

He added that the northern part of the mosque was cleared, enabling several women in burqas and around 30 children to escape, but the fighting was still going on in the southern part.

Hundreds remained inside as soldiers went through the compound's 75 rooms one at a time, facing bitter resistance.

"It is a final push to clear the mosque of armed militants," Arshad said.

"We are taking a step-by-step approach, a very deliberate approach, to make sure there is no collateral damage unnecessarily," he told reporters.


Al Jazeera's Rageh Omaar said the mosque compound is a large and complex building which will take the military a long time to cover.

The army will have to go room by room in a thorough search for those still inside, he said.

He added that there was no sign of the armed students giving themselves up.

Pakistani forces began storming the mosque compound after negotiations to an end a bloody weeklong standoff broke down.



Arshad said security forces launched an operation at 4am (23:00 GMT on Monday) "to clear the madrasa of militants".


Failed talks

Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, a former prime minister and ruling party leader who led negotiations with those inside, said the final effort to secure a peaceful solution had failed.


"I am returning very disappointed," he said.

The deal was believed to have been arranged after Hussain met Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's president.

Security forces had previously held back from mounting a full-scale assault because of fears for the safety of women and children that they said were being held hostage by Ghazi.

Ghazi said he had nearly 2,000 followers with him and that no one was being held hostage.

Source: Al Jazeera and agencies

Pakistani rebel cleric 'killed'
A Pakistani cleric and 50 militants are killed after troops storm a rebellious mosque in Islamabad, officials say.
In pictures: Red Mosque assault
Obituary: Abdul Rashid Ghazi
Eyewitness: Red Mosque siege

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Jamia Hafsa extremists’ actions brought bad name to country, religion: PM



ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz on Tuesday said the government’s well-thought out strategy to save the lives of maximum people including children and women, who were held hostages in the Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa, has been successful.

“Saving the lives of maximum people was the center-point of government’s strategy and with the safe retrieval of 1300 children, women and men from Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa, we have been successful in our objective”, the Prime Minister said while chairing a special cabinet meeting here.

The Prime Minister said the government made every effort to resolve the issue through dialogue, but the Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa administration did not respond positively.

He said,attempts were being made to resolve the issue amicably even until Tuesday morning, but the course of dialogue stopped, particularly, “when we were told that there are foreign militants in the Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa and safe passage was being sought for them.”

He said, the government was deeply grieved over the loss of lives in Jamia Hafsa operation, which was caused by the unyielding attitude of the Jamia Hafsa administration.

The Prime Minister said extremists in Jamia Hafsa damaged the country’s image and brought a bad name to our religion.

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Abdul Rasheed Ghazi killed in operation silence



ISLAMABAD: With the death of the deputy chief of Lal mosque Abdul Rasheed Ghazi, the operation silence has entered into a decisive phase as the troops fought daylong gunbattles with the militants holed up in Lal mosque leaving scores dead on the eighth day of the operation on Tuesday.

Massive blasts and gunfire rocked the Red Mosque for 16 hours, sending plumes of smoke billowing above the Islamabad city and raising fears about the fate of scores of women and children inside the complex.

The government said the death of Abdul Rashid Ghazi was a major setback to the rebels, some allegedly linked to Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, who fought with rocket-propelled grenades and sniped at soldiers from the minarets.

The cleric died "in a hail of bullets" after troops spotted him in the basement where he spent most of the day barricaded with some children and women, interior ministry spokesman Brigadier Javed Cheema said.
"
Ghazi came out with four or five militants who kept on firing at security forces. The troops responded and in the crossfire he was killed," Cheema said.

"It is a big blow to the extremist element in the country and a lesson for others."

Director General ISPR Major General Waheed Arshad said troops had secured 80 percent of the complex and were moving slowly as "the resistance is intense in the remaining area."

He said over 50 militants and eight soldiers were confirmed dead and at least 29 soldiers were wounded.

Around 60 women and children have so far emerged from the complex since the dawn assault was launched, but many more are still believed to be inside.

"The militants are using women and children as human shields," he added.

The militants had booby-trapped much of the compound and "have turned the mosque into a trench for them, they have violated the sanctity of the mosque," Arshad said.

It was not clear how many militants or civilians were still inside. The government has spoken of 100 militants, and 300 to 400 women and children hostages. Mosque leaders have denied holding civilians as human shields and insisted all those in the compound were there voluntarily.

Fifty militants surrendered after they were given a final chance during a break in the fighting.

The military also said that the wife and daughter of Abdul Aziz, Ghazi's brother and the official head of the mosque, who was captured trying to flee in a woman's burqa on Wednesday, were among a group of civilians freed.

A man who picked up one of the mobile phones belonging to Ghazi before his death said there were "dead bodies everywhere."

In one of his final calls, made to a private television channel shortly after the raid, Ghazi accused the government of being insincere in its efforts to resolve the crisis.
"
These people want nothing but genocide," Ghazi said.

More than 1,200 male and female students fled the mosque earlier in the standoff.

Minutes before the raid, top government negotiator Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, a former Pakistani premier, announced that 11 hours of negotiations with Ghazi had failed.

Street battles broke out on July 3 between police and the mosque's radical students, and it has been under a 24-hour shoot-on-sight curfew ever since.

Officials have said militant commanders are inside, including some from the extremist group Harkatul-Jihad-e-Islami, which has been accused of involvement in the murder of US journalist Daniel Pearl and an attempt to kill Musharraf.

It is pertinent to mention here that Geo News gave breaking news about the death of Abdul Rasheed Ghazi first of all at 6:52PM.
Reply

^..sTr!vEr..^
07-10-2007, 07:51 PM
well, so they have finally martyred him!! :cry: :cry:
May Allah give pakistani leaders hidayat or destroy them badly ameen!
Reply

snakelegs
07-10-2007, 07:52 PM
thanks for the update. i'm glad this thread has been re-opened.
even when this has ended, i am afraid it will not be the end.
there seems to be no end of problems for pakistan. imsad
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wilberhum
07-10-2007, 07:53 PM
martyred? :rolleyes:
Reply

KAding
07-10-2007, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
martyred? :rolleyes:
Of course. He's and many of his supporters are in heaven and the Pakistani government has one less thing to worry about.

Win win situation? :mmokay:
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snakelegs
07-10-2007, 08:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I can see India drooling now. I think at the moment they could gain some pro India supporters in Pakistan by coming forward with some strong anti-Musharaf statements. a division of Pakistan into Pro Mushy and anti Mushy factions would be an open door for India to walk in. Almost a plan for a three way division of Pakistan. Pro Mushy, Anti Mushy, Pro India.


EDIT: added the following
How can Pakistan ever have any pro-India supporters? Simple by using this opportunity to be anti-Mushy. Enough anger against somebody will give some people reason to follow Shaytan, if they believe he is against what they hate. I will be very surprised if India does not now become very verbal in attacking Musharaff
i think this is a real danger. there is danger both from within and without.
i also think criticisms of president musharraf should be put on hold for the moment. but politicians are the same all over the world. :(
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snakelegs
07-10-2007, 08:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
martyred? :rolleyes:
this is what he wanted.
Reply

snakelegs
07-10-2007, 08:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Of course. He's and many of his supporters are in heaven and the Pakistani government has one less thing to worry about.

Win win situation? :mmokay:
i'm afraid this is far from over.
Reply

Skywalker
07-10-2007, 08:51 PM
Idunno about all you guys, but I'd like to properly understand this situation. From what I've picked up, the guys in the mosque are trying to forcefully implement parts of Sharia law within Pakistan even if it means breaking some of the government's laws? Is that why the government is angry at them?

Secondly, I noticed several members here writing things like "May Allah destroy them," etc...as far as I know, you should never do that. The most you should do is say "May Allah guide them". Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
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wilberhum
07-10-2007, 08:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
this is what he wanted.
Right!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19684909/
Abdul Rashid Ghazi, the public face of the pro-Taliban mosque that challenged the government’s writ in Islamabad, had vowed to die rather than give himself up.
Reply

wilberhum
07-10-2007, 09:02 PM
From what I've picked up, the guys in the mosque are trying to forcefully implement parts of Sharia law within Pakistan even if it means breaking some of the government's laws?
You picked up quite well. That's a short, but accurate assement.
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doorster
07-10-2007, 09:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skywalker
Idunno about all you guys, but I'd like to properly understand this situation. From what I've picked up, the guys in the mosque are trying to forcefully implement parts of Sharia law within Pakistan even if it means breaking some of the government's laws? Is that why the government is angry at them?

Secondly, I noticed several members here writing things like "May Allah destroy them," etc...as far as I know, you should never do that. The most you should do is say "May Allah guide them". Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
I'll reply in detail later but would just like to add for now that it is not possible to implement punitive side of Shariah in Pakistan as a great majority of people are illiterate and poverty stricken.

we can't go around punishing them willy nilly Taliban style.
before these laws there first needs to be a Social Security and Education System in place. People need to learn what is right and wrong before being condemned
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islamirama
07-10-2007, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skywalker
Idunno about all you guys, but I'd like to properly understand this situation. From what I've picked up, the guys in the mosque are trying to forcefully implement parts of Sharia law within Pakistan even if it means breaking some of the government's laws? Is that why the government is angry at them?

Secondly, I noticed several members here writing things like "May Allah destroy them," etc...as far as I know, you should never do that. The most you should do is say "May Allah guide them". Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
The giv't is after this masjid becuase Bush is putting pressure on musharaaf to do something about it. The masjid has 2 madrassas, one for boys and one for girls. each one has like 7,000 members or something. They are a bit aggressive then other islamic parties in calling for change but they have not tried to over throw anyone. They have been calling for shariah based courts to be set up and have been calling for society improvements and shut down of bad things like porno shops and brothels.

Lot of politicans love to go these brothels and even have their fav girls there. Some of these girls are kidnapped from various cities and forced to work here as politicans want certain age (young) and virgins. Even the brothel owners say they keep the politicans happy who threat to shut their business down otherwise.

Busharaf is very unpopular and the whole public is yelling him to get out of office. He had recently sacked a supreme court judge under the charges of bribery and favoritism when everyone knows that the judge would hear cases aganst the gov't and president. Judge is fighting for his case and his job. His case turned into a national protest against busharaf and for him to get out of office. The lawyers & judges have rep for being corrupt and what not (most of them) just like anywhere else (like US), but even then you see all the lawyers and judges behind this supreme judge to support him against busharafs injustice.

So the attack on the masjid is 1. to please his master in white house, 2. to turn attention from the mass protest and negative publicity he's getting from the judge case. Did you notice how at the start of the confrontation, it was students and clerics, and now they have turned into terrorists and qaeda members and what not. It's all propaganda by him and his stooges. He's just an old dog who is trying to hold onto power when no one wants him.
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wilberhum
07-10-2007, 09:11 PM
The giv't is after this masjid becuase Bush is putting pressure on musharaaf to do something about it.
No matter how much sugar you put on that BS it still won't be candy.
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islamirama
07-10-2007, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
No matter how much sugar you put on that BS it still won't be candy.
like the kuffar knows what he's talking about sitting in his state 1/2 across the world, watching his gov't controlled media :rolleyes:
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wilberhum
07-10-2007, 09:20 PM
watching his gov't controlled media
You can't be that ignorant, Can you? :hiding:
I guess that explains why Bush gets all that positive press. :confused:
Reply

snakelegs
07-10-2007, 09:20 PM
i think the main issue is that these people have taken the law in to their own hands and this would be crushed in any country.
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wilberhum
07-10-2007, 09:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i think the main issue is that these people have taken the law in to their own hands and this would be crushed in any country.
I think that would be totally accurate. :thumbs_up

I just don't understand the logic behind people supporting armed groups doing what ever they want. :confused:
Reply

doorster
07-10-2007, 09:27 PM
Social Security and Education first shariah courts later
he is back with his libelous, rude and sometimes obscene statements, Please stop him or I shall reply to him, again, line by line!
The giv't is after this masjid becuase Bush is putting pressure on musharaaf to do something about it. The masjid has 2 madrassas, one for boys and one for girls. each one has like 7,000 members or something. They are a bit aggressive then other islamic parties in calling for change but they have not tried to over throw anyone. They have been calling for shariah based courts to be set up and have been calling for society improvements and shut down of bad things like porno shops and brothels.

Lot of politicans love to go these brothels and even have their fav girls there. Some of these girls are kidnapped from various cities and forced to work here as politicans want certain age (young) and virgins. Even the brothel owners say they keep the politicans happy who threat to shut their business down otherwise.

Busharaf is very unpopular and the whole public is yelling him to get out of office. He had recently sacked a supreme court judge under the charges of bribery and favoritism when everyone knows that the judge would hear cases aganst the gov't and president. Judge is fighting for his case and his job. His case turned into a national protest against busharaf and for him to get out of office. The lawyers & judges have rep for being corrupt and what not (most of them) just like anywhere else (like US), but even then you see all the lawyers and judges behind this supreme judge to support him against busharafs injustice.

So the attack on the masjid is 1. to please his master in white house, 2. to turn attention from the mass protest and negative publicity he's getting from the judge case. Did you notice how at the start of the confrontation, it was students and clerics, and now they have turned into terrorists and qaeda members and what not. It's all propaganda by him and his stooges. He's just an old dog who is trying to hold onto power when no one wants him.
it is unIslamic to punish starving and illiterate

Social Security and Education first shariah courts later
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aamirsaab
07-10-2007, 09:30 PM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
..
I just don't understand the logic behind people supporting armed groups doing what ever they want. :confused:
Ditto.
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^..sTr!vEr..^
07-10-2007, 10:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skywalker
Secondly, I noticed several members here writing things like "May Allah destroy them," etc...as far as I know, you should never do that. The most you should do is say "May Allah guide them". Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

:sl:
Yeah im one of the above mentioned members because when someone goes beyond limits n plannes to kil all the mujahideens n good muslim so that he can continue his wickedness so there is nothing more to pray than his destruction. And we do say this that if hidaayt is fated for him then, its the best otherwise destruction is the only solution ...
And please dear muslims and muslimahs donot believe in media blindly. Media is all time-supporter of pakistani government :cry:
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^..sTr!vEr..^
07-10-2007, 10:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
martyred? :rolleyes:
:sl:
SubhanAllah!! ^o) m amazed. So all this mocking for him. Do you know the secrets[ghaib] ...??... The way he has been killed clearly shows that he has been martyred. For Allah's sake please stop giving your own opinions because none knows Allah's decision. inshAllah he was sincere..may Allah give him a high position in Jannah. And hidaayah to all the mockers. Ameen.
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NoName55
07-10-2007, 10:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ^..sTr!vEr..^
:sl:
Yeah im one of the above mentioned members because when someone goes beyond limits n plannes to kil all the mujahideens n good muslim so that he can continue his wickedness so there is nothing more to pray than his destruction. And we do say this that if hidaayt is fated for him then, its the best otherwise destruction is the only solution ...
And please dear muslims and muslimahs donot believe in media blindly. Media is all time-supporter of pakistani government :cry:
format_quote Originally Posted by ^..sTr!vEr..^
:sl:
SubhanAllah!! ^o) m amazed. So all this mocking for him. Do you know the secrets[ghaib] ...??... The way he has been killed clearly shows that he has been martyred. For Allah's sake please stop giving your own opinions because none knows Allah's decision. inshAllah he was sincere..may Allah give him a high position in Jannah. And hidaayah to all the mockers. Ameen.
Can you prove that from The Holy Qura'an? Or any genuine hadith?

Audhobillah min al-shaitan al-rajim
Reply

snakelegs
07-10-2007, 10:26 PM
you don't have to support the government in order to realise that no government can (or would) allow people to take the law in their own hands.
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^..sTr!vEr..^
07-10-2007, 10:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
Can you prove that from The Holy Qura'an? Or any genuine hadith?

Audhobillah min al-shaitan al-rajim

inshAllah...what do you want me to prove..? I will try.. :)
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doorster
07-10-2007, 10:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ^..sTr!vEr..^
inshAllah...what do you want me to prove..? I will try.. :)
:sl:

He wants you to prove that a terror master can be a martyr

:w:

(before you ask how I know, we are both in the same house ATM)
http://www.islamicboard.com/788549-post44.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/788581-post51.html
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islamirama
07-10-2007, 10:52 PM
Comments:

Assalaamu 3alaikum wa rahmatullaah wa Barakaatuh,
Perished are the hands that killed the sheikh and perished are the hands that killed Muslims for no crime except calling to the Path of Allaah and rejecting allegiance to the kuffaar.. Inshaa Alaah the sheikh and those with him died shuhadaa since they died fighting immorality and died at the hands of forces allied with the enemies of Islaam. Also, since his death pleases the kuffaar it most certainly displeases Allaah.
They even use the same language the American and British military uses: "combatants", " foreign militants", " 50 militants have been killed ". Why don't they speak the truth and say that 50 pious Muslims were murdered to please the hypocrite traitor Musharraf and his masters in Washington.

This is premeditated murder and I believe sheikh Rehmatullah Khalil, in the mediation team, who accused Musharraf of sabotaging a draft agreement with the mosque's chief cleric. They were prepared to kill as many as 400 Muslims inside the Masjid (since the army has ordered 400 white shrouds).


Bahjat
Reply

Woodrow
07-10-2007, 10:53 PM
there is always a reason for groups of people to want to overthrow their government. Often it is good to take a look at some of the reasons people take action. We may not agree with the actions they take, but perhaps the rasons for the actions need to be corrected.

Ms. Gohar and other experts say systemic corruption in government construction projects is directly responsible for the devastating losses among northern Pakistan's next generation.

"This is criminal negligence by the state," says Gohar, whose organization is considering a public interest lawsuit against the education department of the government, and the department of communications and works.

The call for an investigation, fast becoming a political battleground, is but one of many immense challenges now facing a nation struggling to rehabilitate its future generations.

The landscape in the north is littered with flattened schools, eerily transformed into some of the largest graveyards of this devastated area. Some 500 students died in the Government Boys High School in Balakot, where 200 bodies still lie beneath the rubble, locals say. Some 8,000 schools collapsed in the Northwest Frontier Province (NWFP), and 2,000 in Pakistan's less-populous Kashmir region. All the schools collapsed in Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan-controlled Kashmir, reports the Associated Press.
Source: http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1108/p01s03-wosc.html


Rs 100b a year corruption in Pakistan: minister

By Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: It has been estimated that corruption costs Pakistan Rs 100 billion a year or five percent of its Gross National Products (GNP), according to Dr Nasim Ashraf, state minister and National Commission for Human Development (NCHD) chairman.

Addressing a meeting at the Woodrow Wilson Centre on Monday, Dr Ashraf said the macro-economic indicators for Pakistan were never as good as they were today.

However, the window of opportunity was a narrow one and would disappear in the next six to eight years, the period Pakistan had to turn things around, he added.
Source: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...12-2003_pg7_14


General Pervez Musharraf tells the world that he must perpetuate military rule in order to save Pakistan from two scourges: corrupt, money-grubbing politicians and Islamic extremists.
.
But one of the key reasons why he is so determined to hold on to power is that the generals like the smell of money just as much as the politicians. As chief of staff of the armed forces, Musharraf presides over a vast industrial, commercial and real estate empire under direct military control with assets and investments of at least $5 billion
Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/2002/05/10/edsig_ed3_.php


Pakistan has weak trade freedom, financial freedom, property rights, and freedom from corruption. Imports are subject to a high average tariff rate and burdensome non-tariff barriers. The judicial system does not protect property rights effectively because of a serious case backlog, understaffed facilities, and poor overall security. Serious corruption taints the judiciary and civil service, making Pakistan one of the 20 most corrupt nations rated by the Index. Pakistan's financial market, though advanced for the region, is similarly constrained by regulation and bureaucracy.
Source: http://www.heritage.org/research/fea...fm?id=pakistan


Perhaps the best Help the US can give Pakistan would be to stop supporting Musharaff?
Reply

^..sTr!vEr..^
07-10-2007, 10:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Comments:

Assalaamu 3alaikum wa rahmatullaah wa Barakaatuh,
Perished are the hands that killed the sheikh and perished are the hands that killed Muslims for no crime except calling to the Path of Allaah and rejecting allegiance to the kuffaar.. Inshaa Alaah the sheikh and those with him died shuhadaa since they died fighting immorality and died at the hands of forces allied with the enemies of Islaam. Also, since his death pleases the kuffaar it most certainly displeases Allaah.
They even use the same language the American and British military uses: "combatants", " foreign militants", " 50 militants have been killed ". Why don't they speak the truth and say that 50 pious Muslims were murdered to please the hypocrite traitor Musharraf and his masters in Washington.

This is premeditated murder and I believe sheikh Rehmatullah Khalil, in the mediation team, who accused Musharraf of sabotaging a draft agreement with the mosque's chief cleric. They were prepared to kill as many as 400 Muslims inside the Masjid (since the army has ordered 400 white shrouds).


Bahjat


:sl:
SubhanAllah!! mashAllah...loads of rep for you..mashAllah soooo well said. Im with you. JazakAllah. May Allah reward you loads. I agree with you. :)
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islamirama
07-10-2007, 11:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ^..sTr!vEr..^
:sl:
SubhanAllah!! mashAllah...loads of rep for you..mashAllah soooo well said. Im with you. JazakAllah. May Allah reward you loads. I agree with you. :)
:w:

A bro name "bahjat" said it, i get his emails with his inputs on news articles that he forwards. I share his sentiments therefore i share them here :)

May Allah give justice to these Muslims oppressed and murdered by the munafiq and his army.
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snakelegs
07-10-2007, 11:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Comments:

Assalaamu 3alaikum wa rahmatullaah wa Barakaatuh,
Perished are the hands that killed the sheikh and perished are the hands that killed Muslims for no crime except calling to the Path of Allaah and rejecting allegiance to the kuffaar.. Inshaa Alaah the sheikh and those with him died shuhadaa since they died fighting immorality and died at the hands of forces allied with the enemies of Islaam. Also, since his death pleases the kuffaar it most certainly displeases Allaah.
They even use the same language the American and British military uses: "combatants", " foreign militants", " 50 militants have been killed ". Why don't they speak the truth and say that 50 pious Muslims were murdered to please the hypocrite traitor Musharraf and his masters in Washington.

This is premeditated murder and I believe sheikh Rehmatullah Khalil, in the mediation team, who accused Musharraf of sabotaging a draft agreement with the mosque's chief cleric. They were prepared to kill as many as 400 Muslims inside the Masjid (since the army has ordered 400 white shrouds).


Bahjat
well, to this kaffir nobody's death makes me happy. i am sad for pakistan - it has a seemingly endless list of problems. don't make assumptions about the kuffar.
you might love the shariah and hate vice - does this give you the right to take things in your own hands and run around trying to violently try to impose it?
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nevesirth
07-10-2007, 11:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ^..sTr!vEr..^
:sl:
Yeah im one of the above mentioned members because when someone goes beyond limits n plannes to kil all the mujahideens n good muslim so that he can continue his wickedness so there is nothing more to pray than his destruction. And we do say this that if hidaayt is fated for him then, its the best otherwise destruction is the only solution ...
And please dear muslims and muslimahs donot believe in media blindly. Media is all time-supporter of pakistani government :cry:
its funny how all these pple seem to know alot about wht is happening in pakistan when they live on another side of the globe, only getting regulated and propaganda information from their pro government media.

i personaly cant say for certain wht is going on in pakistan, lakin i believe ^..sTr!vEr..^ is in a better position to aquaint us with the true situation of things over there cuz she lives there. he who wears the shoes knows where it hurts.

salams!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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snakelegs
07-10-2007, 11:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Perhaps the best Help the US can give Pakistan would be to stop supporting Musharaff?
strangely, it is not only religious people who say this. many secular democrats say the same thing.
personally, i don't know.
pakistan has real problems, as you have mentioned. it does not need any more.
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snakelegs
07-10-2007, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nevesirth
its funny how all these pple seem to know alot about wht is happening in pakistan when they live on another side of the globe, only getting regulated and propaganda information from their pro government media.

i personaly cant say for certain wht is going on in pakistan, lakin i believe ^..sTr!vEr..^ is in a better position to aquaint us with the true situation of things over there cuz she lives there. he who wears the shoes knows where it hurts.

salams!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
trouble is not all pakistanis (or anybody for that matter) think alike. so it depends entirely on the individual you are talking to, what their perspective is.
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nevesirth
07-10-2007, 11:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
trouble is not all pakistanis (or anybody for that matter) think alike. so it depends entirely on the individual you are talking to, what their perspective is.
as a result of ur geographical location, all u hear is someones version of wht is going on which could be a spinned or embelished version of the reality of the present situation in pakistan, on the other hand, someone who lives in the country will be in a better position to experience whts goin on in the vicinity and thereby make up his or her mind and posses genuine views or perspectives of the situation at hand in contrast with tht being impossed or forced on someone overseas who is not given the previledge of absorbing wht is happening and making up a genuine picture of the events objectively!!!!!!!!!!!
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nevesirth
07-10-2007, 11:25 PM
the truth is tht the world is at war, and the media is one of the most powerful weapons used. the media if utilised effectively can gain alot of supporters for the policies of the govrnment. so as a result there is hardly anything like transparent reporting these days. the media is just a patriotic tool used to serve the governments interests!!!!!!!!!!!!
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snakelegs
07-10-2007, 11:26 PM
i agree with your basic premise, but it does depend on who you talk to even then. for example, i know pakistanis who would disagree sharply with what ^..sTr!vEr..^ has posted.
there is no such thing as objectivity. i think best is to listen to people who live there and read a wide range of news sources besides. in the end, it depends on who is looking, what is seen and what is not.
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nevesirth
07-10-2007, 11:37 PM
nevertheless, i believe the government used excessive and undeserved force in this unfortunate ambush. no matter wht the stance of the cleric was, i feel with a little patience the stand off could have been resolved diplomaticaly through dialogue.

from the outcome of things im forced to believe the government was trying so much to please someone else in order to create the illusion tht they are really a trusted ally in the so called war on terror. its so pathetic how someone or some people can sacrifice the lives of their people just for a mere tap in the back from america. america would never resort to such a despicable act of slaughtering its citizens if it were in this same situation. its high time people got their priorities right!!!!!!!!!!!!
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wilberhum
07-10-2007, 11:41 PM
i believe the government used excessive and undeserved force in this unfortunate ambush. no matter wht the stance of the cleric was, i feel with a little patience the stand off could have been resolved diplomaticaly through dialogue.
Ambush? :confused: A little Patience? :confused:
How long should the goverment stand by and allow hostages to be kept. :hiding:
The head guy said he would die before he gave up.
:thumbs_do
Well he got his wish.:yawn:
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Amadeus85
07-10-2007, 11:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

Perhaps the best Help the US can give Pakistan would be to stop supporting Musharaff?
The question is, if no Musharraf so who? Most probably we would have islamists' reigns in Pakistan and come back of talibans.
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islamirama
07-10-2007, 11:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Ambush? :confused: A little Patience? :confused:
How long should the goverment stand by and allow hostages to be kept. :hiding:
The head guy said he would die before he gave up.
:thumbs_do
Well he got his wish.:yawn:
see that is just the problem, you are repeating the words they are saying. who? the media and the busharaf regime. I think you would do better to ask someone local of that region of the facts then to rely on your current resources. Lucky for you we have someone in this thread from there...
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snakelegs
07-10-2007, 11:46 PM
it is true that the u.s. has impinged on pakistan's national sovereignty. of course, it could well be that the reality of disobeying bush's demands would be much worse. who can know what the u.s. is threatening president musharraf and what his options were?
in any case, a country cannot allow people to take the law in their own hands. they would be crushed anywhere, and usually a lot sooner than the people in lal masjid.
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islamirama
07-10-2007, 11:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
The question is, if no Musharraf so who? Most probably we would have islamists' reigns in Pakistan and come back of talibans.
It's a Muslim country, let them have whoever they want. Why is it bothering you? and what you mean come back of talibans, they were never in pakistan to begin with.
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snakelegs
07-10-2007, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
The question is, if no Musharraf so who? Most probably we would have islamists' reigns in Pakistan and come back of talibans.
as far as i know, they are far from being the majority in pakistan.
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snakelegs
07-10-2007, 11:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
It's a Muslim country, let them have whoever they want. Why is it bothering you? and what you mean come back of talibans, they were never in pakistan to begin with.
the taliban were never in pakistan???????????? where have you been?????
but aside from that - the pakistani people should decide their future.
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Amadeus85
07-10-2007, 11:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
as far as i know, they are far from being the majority in pakistan.
You mean islamists or talibans? Only in oposission against Musharraf they have few islamic parties.
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Amadeus85
07-10-2007, 11:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
It's a Muslim country, let them have whoever they want. Why is it bothering you? and what you mean come back of talibans, they were never in pakistan to begin with.
Well, talibans- afghan students of quaranic schools were indoctrinated in Pakistan. To say honestly i dont care at all who reigns Pakistan , untill the rulers dont support terror nor are terrorists themselves.
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nevesirth
07-10-2007, 11:54 PM
lets not forget the fact tht violence only leads to more violence. exterminating 50 something humans doesnt spell the end of the conflict, it only calls for more violence and bloodshed. when will we learn tht war is not always the answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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islamirama
07-10-2007, 11:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Well, talibans- afghan students of quaranic schools were indoctrinated in Pakistan. To say honestly i dont care at all who reigns Pakistan , untill the rulers dont support terror nor are terrorists themselves.
US Does Not Consider Taliban Terrorists

http://csmonitor.com/2006/0502/dailyUpdate.html
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Woodrow
07-11-2007, 12:01 AM
I doubt if any war can be won unless the "winner" can earn the support of the "Defeated".

To win a war and have to then maintain control of a defeated people that hate you is very expensive and non-productive. It eventually leads to the downfall of the conquerer.

The only winners of war are the munitions manufacturers. Who usually are living in comfort many miles from danger.
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nevesirth
07-11-2007, 12:02 AM
i wonder how it would have been like in the 70s when the ku klux klan was killing pple anyhow it pleased, if a coalition force from africa was sent to capture or kill the 'kkk terrorist' . would the us have backed this coalition force in hunting down and killing these radicals then? just some food for thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 12:13 AM
if anyone, including a bunch of baptists in iowa, took the law in their own hands and tried to use force to make people live the way they thought they should, they would be crushed. and it wouldn't take 6 months either.
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 12:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
You mean islamists or talibans? Only in oposission against Musharraf they have few islamic parties.
i was talking about the taliban specifically that islamirama said were never in pakistan to begin with. they originated in pakistan. they are pashtuns (though certainly not all pashtuns are taliban). they were educated in schools sponsored by saudi arabia and guess who else?
they were cannon fodder to fight the commie menace. as soon as the commies left afghanistan, the u.s. washed its hands and walked away.
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 12:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
US Does Not Consider Taliban Terrorists

http://csmonitor.com/2006/0502/dailyUpdate.html
yes, it's interesting how quickly the u.s. lost interest in the taliban and in OBL. to me it suggests that they were not really interested in them in the first place.
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Cognescenti
07-11-2007, 12:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nevesirth
lets not forget the fact tht violence only leads to more violence. exterminating 50 something humans doesnt spell the end of the conflict, it only calls for more violence and bloodshed. when will we learn tht war is not always the answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
True...the problem of radicalsim in Pakistan has not been solved. On the other hand, there are likely several dozens of hostages that are glad it is over.

War is not always the answer..indeed. Hard to see what could have been done here when the Pakis were confronted with a mini-coup.
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nevesirth
07-11-2007, 12:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
if anyone, including a bunch of baptists in iowa, took the law in their own hands and tried to use force to make people live the way they thought they should, they would be crushed. and it wouldn't take 6 months either.
see , thts also a problem, u guys think violence and use of force is the only solution to every problem. killing a fly with a sledge hammer. same way david koresh of the branch dividians was crushed senseleslly by the food and drug agency in the early eighties i think his children and wives were also crushed with him!!!!!!!!!!11
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Woodrow
07-11-2007, 12:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nevesirth
i wonder how it would have been like in the 70s when the ku klux klan was killing pple anyhow it pleased, if a coalition force from africa was sent to capture or kill the 'kkk terrorist' . would the us have backed this coalition force in hunting down and killing these radicals then? just some food for thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Interesting thought.
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nevesirth
07-11-2007, 12:29 AM
we can go on debating on this but the deed has already been done, pple lost their lives.
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doorster
07-11-2007, 12:31 AM
edit
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 12:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nevesirth
see , thts also a problem, u guys think violence and use of force is the only solution to every problem. killing a fly with a sledge hammer. same way david koresh of the branch dividians was crushed senseleslly by the food and drug agency in the early eighties i think his children and wives were also crushed with him!!!!!!!!!!11
i most certainly do not think violence is a solution, which is why i don't think that violent groups can be allowed to take the law in their own hands.
i too am sorry people had to die and i am afraid that it is far from over.
as for koresh, was he kidnapping people, trying to close stores by force etc?
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nevesirth
07-11-2007, 12:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i most certainly do not think violence is a solution, which is why i don't think that violent groups can be allowed to take the law in their own hands.
i too am sorry people had to die and i am afraid that it is far from over.
as for koresh, was he kidnapping people, trying to close stores by force etc?
even if he was closing stores and all, was tht enough reason 4 his family to be exterminated? human life must be very cheap!!!!!!!!!!!!
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 12:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
You mean islamists or talibans? Only in oposission against Musharraf they have few islamic parties.
i'm sorry, i just realized that i didn't really answer your question. i don't like the word "islamists". pakistan is a traditional, religious and conservative country. but that does not by any means mean that the majority of people want to live under shariah - let alone have some vigilantes trying to impose it by force.
the opposition to president musharraf comes from many sides, religious and secular as well.
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 12:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nevesirth
even if he was closing stores and all, was tht enough reason 4 his family to be exterminated? human life must be very cheap!!!!!!!!!!!!
i am sorry that anyone was killed. this man wanted to be a shaheed and he got his wish.
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nevesirth
07-11-2007, 12:50 AM
wht is the aim of killing the so called 'extremists'? do u think they can all be completely wiped out? this sensless 'war on terror' will never end. i believe something very terrible will happen soon and pple will come to their senses and see tht war is not the solution. the world is going to be very unsafe in years to come. all this war is doing is breeding more hate. u kill pples loved ones in iraq, afganistan, pakistan, palestine etc. wht do u expect? some pple in the family will be willing to go to extremes to avenge the death of their loved ones. the killing of one person can create 10 more pple willing to die for the cause of the slain person. so killing 50 will breed 500, kill the 500 and youll get 5000, crush 5000 and toull make 50000, and so on. the main reason for existence in coming generations will be to fight battles!!!!!!!!!!!
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Amadeus85
07-11-2007, 12:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i'm sorry, i just realized that i didn't really answer your question. i don't like the word "islamists". pakistan is a traditional, religious and conservative country. but that does not by any means mean that the majority of people want to live under shariah - let alone have some vigilantes trying to impose it by force.
the opposition to president musharraf comes from many sides, religious and secular as well.
I am not expert about Pakistan, but i wouldnt be so sure that majority doesnt want to live under sharia. First, we must see what kind of country it is. Almost half of people are illiterate. They live in great poor. Often islamic schools are the only place where the young can educate themselves. And i repeat again , just in parliament there are several islamic parties. But as i said before, i am not expert about this country.
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Woodrow
07-11-2007, 12:56 AM
There is some difference between Koresh and others. I was living in Waco a couple of years before the "Battle". I did meet Koresh and a few of his followers. Actually I met Koresh a few times at gun shows, the guy was quite well known at Gun Shows he was always a big time buyer. He seldom had anything to sell, the only thing I ever saw him sell were plans on how to make silencers for hand guns using home materials.

He had very strong control over the members of his "Family". some of the ones that had managed to leave the compound came out with horror stories about how all the men were forced to take a vow of celibacy, But David did not and was married to all of the women. About 50 if I remember. The end came when it was discovered there were many children in the compound and allegations of Child Abuse where made. The social workers that were sent to investigate the allegations were forced off the property and that was when law enfocement became involved. There was a long stand off and Janet Reno gave the order to use force. The rest is history. We will never know the full story as those who know died. Perhaps it was David's own stockpile of munitions that blew up, Perhaps it was from the assault. But, for some reason when the fire started nobody left the compound. From what I read all of the bodies recovered had been shot in the head.
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 12:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nevesirth
wht is the aim of killing the so called 'extremists'? do u think they can all be completely wiped out? this sensless 'war on terror' will never end. i believe something very terrible will happen soon and pple will come to their senses and see tht war is not the solution. the world is going to be very unsafe in years to come. all this war is doing is breeding more hate. u kill pples loved ones in iraq, afganistan, pakistan, palestine etc. wht do u expect? some pple in the family will be willing to go to extremes to avenge the death of their loved ones. the killing of one person can create 10 more pple willing to die for the cause of the slain person. so killing 50 will breed 500, kill the 500 and youll get 5000, crush 5000 and toull make 50000, and so on. the main reason for existence in coming generations will be to fight battles!!!!!!!!!!!
the point is not to kill extremists - the point is not to allow any group to take the law in to their own hands.
as for the "war on terror" - yes, you're right 9/11 is used for an excuse for the creation of a permanent state of war and just about anything else you can think of. i aslo agree - this war is producing more enemies every day. bush is the best friend his "enemies" have for recruitment. but the people who matter are getting richer day by day.
i hope you are wrong in your predictions, but i am very much afraid that you are not.
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nevesirth
07-11-2007, 01:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
the point is not to kill extremists - the point is not to allow any group to take the law in to their own hands.
as for the "war on terror" - yes, you're right 9/11 is used for an excuse for the creation of a permanent state of war and just about anything else you can think of. i aslo agree - this war is producing more enemies every day. bush is the best friend his "enemies" have for recruitment. but the people who matter are getting richer day by day.
i hope you are wrong in your predictions, but i am very much afraid that you are not.
these recent events will definitely lead to more attacks even overseas. all wht has been achieved so far is fueling the ongoing crisis in the world not redusing or minimising it.
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 01:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
I am not expert about Pakistan, but i wouldnt be so sure that majority doesnt want to live under sharia. First, we must see what kind of country it is. Almost half of people are illiterate. They live in great poor. Often islamic schools are the only place where the young can educate themselves. And i repeat again , just in parliament there are several islamic parties. But as i said before, i am not expert about this country.
i am far from expert either, though i have been interested in pakistan since
'99. pakistan's major problems are poverty, corruption and illiteracy. if the people were given half a chance, pakistan could be a great country without having to sacrifice their religion. this is what i would love to see.
these are the problems that so badly need to be addressed and dealt with - and they are not.
we are both only guessing, but i am pretty sure that most pakistanis do not wish to live under shariah. but who are we to say what most pakistanis want?
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 01:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nevesirth
these recent events will definitely lead to more attacks even overseas. all wht has been achieved so far is fueling the ongoing crisis in the world not redusing or minimising it.
agreed. plus, i am afraid that there will be more bloodshed in pakistan itself.
but - and this is the last time i am going to repeat this (at least i have good intentions) - no group, no matter how righteous their motivations may be, can be allowed to take the law in their own hands as these people have been doing for the past 6 months. no government can allow this.
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nevesirth
07-11-2007, 01:19 AM
one thing i would love to see is george bush going to iraq with his wife and kids to liberate the iraqi pple. y doesnt he lead the army or send his children to war instead of sacrifising other peoples kids for his own reasons. i wonder how the parents of the slain soldiers feel, seeing tht their children were sacrificed for nothing while the presidents precious kids are safe and enjoying life 2 the fullest!!!!!!!!!!!
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 01:24 AM
the people who make wars never get any dirt on them, let alone shed any of their own blood. instead, they get richer and richer.
but i am afraid we are going too far away from the topic of lal masjid.
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nevesirth
07-11-2007, 01:27 AM
u right, guess we said it all. theres nothing more to say on the lal masjid topic. so i officially declare this thread ...............
CLOSED LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 01:31 AM
that's not what i said, joker! :p
this is not over yet.
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doorster
07-11-2007, 01:45 AM
killing 50 will breed 500, kill the 500 and youll get 5000, crush 5000 and toull make 50000, and so on
what the illiterate terrorists and their supporters don't realize is that if US can eliminate an entire nation (aborigines of America) while being armed with just muskets and also imagine what they did to Nagasaki/Hiroshima

The way they are armed today, can you not imagine that they can destroy a thousand Pakistans in a blink of an eye?

how ignorant you people have to be before some mod smacks you in the head and says stop talking nonsense?

Just because you have got computers and can lookup crap from self appointed mufti sites, don't think that you are bloody geniuses of some kind and deserve to be called scholars, and made Generals and khalifahs of Muslims of Pakistan or anywhere else.
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 02:37 AM
i understand why many pakistanis are angry at the u.s. for violating pakistan's sovereignty and i understand why many are angry at president musharraf for obeying bush. but i can't help but wonder what his opitions were/are? it is easy to condemn him for this, but who knows how many lives have been saved by his actions? none of us.
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islamirama
07-11-2007, 01:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
what the illiterate terrorists and their supporters don't realize is that if US can eliminate an entire nation (aborigines of America) while being armed with just muskets and also imagine what they did to Nagasaki/Hiroshima

The way they are armed today, can you not imagine that they can destroy a thousand Pakistans in a blink of an eye?

how ignorant you people have to be before some mod smacks you in the head and says stop talking nonsense?

Just because you have got computers and can lookup crap from self appointed mufti sites, don't think that you are bloody geniuses of some kind and deserve to be called scholars, and made Generals and khalifahs of Muslims of Pakistan or anywhere else.
are you calling the students and teachers the masjid terrorists now? *********

And if you kill 50 innocent men and women then 500 will stand up for them and so forth, it's called standing up for justice against dictators and munafiqs like that dog you so arrograntly look upto.

And US can have all the nukes it want as well. We are not afraid nor can you scare us with your weak emaan. Allah has destroyed stronger nations than this evil empire and it's time too has come to crumble, it's a dieing empire that is waging wars crazy like a mad dog to since the world isn't scared of it anymore. And those who die by it's bombing a muslim nation like it did with afghan and iraq, inshallah all of them will be shaheed. So they don't loose either way. And you can bet pak has enough power to take out US bases in muslim world before going down.
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aamirsaab
07-11-2007, 01:28 PM
:sl:
May I please remind all members not to insult one another during the middle of a discussion. Please drop your handbags, dawn has passed.
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doorster
07-11-2007, 01:37 PM
are you calling the students and teachers the masjid terrorists now? *
yes*1000
And if you kill 50 innocent men and women then 500 will stand up for them and so forth, it's called standing up for justice against dictators and munafiqs like that dog you so arrograntly look upto.

And US can have all the nukes it want as well. We are not afraid nor can you scare us with your weak emaan. Allah has destroyed stronger nations than this evil empire and it's time too has come to crumble, it's a dieing empire that is waging wars crazy like a mad dog to since the world isn't scared of it anymore. And those who die by it's bombing a muslim nation like it did with afghan and iraq, inshallah all of them will be shaheed. So they don't loose either way. And you can bet pak has enough power to take out US bases in muslim world before going down.
since you advocate suicide for rest of us, why are you sitting in US? why don't you do the world a favor and put on one of those suicide belts that you seem to be offering us?
And you can bet pak has enough power to take out US bases in muslim world before going down.
so to spite the US, we should nuke the Muslim world? wow! what a super idea

Hypocrites are screaming about death of 50 terrorists saying how bothered they are with those deaths yet have no qualms about instigating death of all Muslim world!
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islamirama
07-11-2007, 01:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
yes*1000
may Allah guide you from your ignorance

since you advocate suicide for rest of us, why are you sitting in US? why don't you do the world a favor and put on one of them suicide belt that you seem to be offering us?

may Allah guide you from your ignorance and stupidty
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KAding
07-11-2007, 02:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i understand why many pakistanis are angry at the u.s. for violating pakistan's sovereignty and i understand why many are angry at president musharraf for obeying bush. but i can't help but wonder what his opitions were/are? it is easy to condemn him for this, but who knows how many lives have been saved by his actions? none of us.
You think Musharraf did this on orders of Bush? :confused:
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InSearchOfTruth
07-11-2007, 04:00 PM
I heard that one of the journalists asked the Director General ISPR Major General Waheed Arshad during the TV conference to confirm the government ordered for 800 coffins for adults and 300 for children killed inside the Lal Masjid operation. And he replied that he was not aware of this. However, if this is true, then this will be the most unimaginable massacre of innocents (men, women and children) in the history of Pakistan.

If any of you know more information about this matter, please share it with us in this thread.
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doorster
07-11-2007, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by InSearchOfTruth
I heard that one of the journalists asked the Director General ISPR Major General Waheed Arshad during the TV conference to confirm the government ordered for 800 coffins for adults and 300 for children killed inside the Lal Masjid operation. And he replied that he was not aware of this. However, if this is true, then this will be the most unimaginable massacre of innocents (men, women and children) in the history of Pakistan.

If any of you know more information about this matter, please share it with us in this thread.
this is called rumor spreading.

strange how it is your first post and you zoom right into this thread.

God dang Shayateen! Audhobillah! May Allah save us from falsehood and those who spread it!

-------------------------------------------------------------
I reported this post in the hope that it will be deleted as a wild flight of fancy as it says "I heard"
from who?
what journalist?
what news agency?
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Cognescenti
07-11-2007, 06:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nevesirth
i wonder how it would have been like in the 70s when the ku klux klan was killing pple anyhow it pleased, if a coalition force from africa was sent to capture or kill the 'kkk terrorist' . would the us have backed this coalition force in hunting down and killing these radicals then? just some food for thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A "foreign" occupying force was sent to the South to enforce integration against the will of the locals. Either Kennedy or Johnson sent the 101st Airborne to Little Rock, Arkansas to enforce a Federal Court order. It was not a popular decision among the locals :D

BTW....the KKK never was "killing people how it pleased" in the late 20th century. There were problems with local and state law enforcement, of course, but the Feds intervened.

Beyond that, your analogy doesn't hold water.
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InSearchOfTruth
07-11-2007, 07:45 PM
this is called rumor spreading.

strange how it is you first post and you zoom right into this thread.

God dang Shayateen! Audhobillah! May Allah save us from falsehood and those who spread it!
Currently there are hundreds of families weeping and begging the army for any information about their loved ones to know whether they are killed, injured or kept in the custody. But they are not getting any satisfactory answers from the government. And they have kept the media away from Lal Masjid intentionally to cover up their massacre. What is this?

If thousands of people are not killed during this army operation in the masjid, they should be brought in the open to show the public that the government is telling the truth, that they have rescued them.
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Woodrow
07-11-2007, 08:57 PM
Let us first decide that there is something we can agree upon. I believe we can all agree this was a tragedy and it makes no difference if one innocent life was lost or 10,000 innocent lives were lost. The family of the the wrongly killed love hurts the same, if it is a lone death or one of many.


Like all tragedies this leaves questions for which no person can offer adequate explanations.


Was it the deep hidden plan of evil people? If so who gained and what was gained?

Was it all the result of misunderstandings? What was misunderstood?

How could it have been avoided?

Now what really needs to be found is a way to keep this from being repeated. Can a repeat be avoided?

Who besides the dead are the real losers?
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
You think Musharraf did this on orders of Bush? :confused:
no, i didn't mean that, altho most certainly there was pressure from bush. bush has been pressuring president musharraf ever since 9/11.
many are critical of president musharraf for giving in to bush's orders - but what were his options?
i guess, according to people like islamirama, he should have told bush "no" and then the americans would've bombed pakistan the way they did afghanistan, but worse (since pakistan was not an already-destroyed nation) - and all the pakistanis would have been blessed with instant martyrdom and lived happily ever after.
you can see why this would have been preferable....:rollseyes
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Cognescenti
07-11-2007, 09:35 PM
Unfortunately, the past behavior of the current Pakistani government has undermined their credibility.

A good example was some leader (can't remember his name) in Waziristan with ties to the Taleban just happens to meet his maker in a big explosion with no airplane sounds about. The locals find apparent missile parts strewn about with English-language printing on them. Instead of just admiting the CIA is opearting in Pakistani territory, the Pakistani military claims they used a new "secret weapon" :D

To this add the rumor-conspiracy predelictions of millions of poorly educated Pakistanis and you have quite a PR problem for the government. If they can believe the Israelis blew up the WTC, they can certainly believe the Pakistani Govnmt. is understating the death toll.
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doorster
07-11-2007, 09:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
no, i didn't mean that, altho most certainly there was pressure from bush. bush has been pressuring president musharraf ever since 9/11.
many are critical of president musharraf for giving in to bush's orders - but what were his options?
i guess, according to people like islamirama, he should have told bush "no" and then the americans would've bombed pakistan the way they did afghanistan, but worse (since pakistan was not an already-destroyed nation) - and all the pakistanis would have been blessed with instant martyrdom and lived happily ever after.
you can see why this would have been preferable....:rollseyes
not just the Pakistanis, islamirama also wants us to destroy Muslim countries to spite America just before America destroys us
http://www.islamicboard.com/789061-post109.html
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doorster
07-11-2007, 09:58 PM
edit
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 10:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
not just the Pakistanis, islamirama also wants us to destroy Muslim countries to spite America just before America destroys us
http://www.islamicboard.com/789061-post109.html
what's wrong? - he knows what's good for pakistan and the ummah. isn't that reassuring to you, as a pakistani? he is wise beyond his years. he should realize that bush is really helping people on their journey. :rolleyes:
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snakelegs
07-11-2007, 10:07 PM
Cognescenti,
"paki" is a derogatory word - has similar connotations as the "n word".
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doorster
07-11-2007, 10:10 PM
My mission is to keep people alive, best way to attain success here and hereafter is to make our country strong and educate our people to become Muslims (not just by name)

edit:

Anyone who invites us to suicide is actually inviting us to hellfire.
Allah is with the patient ones!
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Cognescenti
07-11-2007, 10:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
Cognescenti,
"paki" is a derogatory word - has similar connotations as the "n word".

Ah. Terribly sorry. I did not know that. It has no such connotation in the US. I was just trying to abbreviate and left the period off. I will edit that. Thanks
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Cognescenti
07-11-2007, 11:07 PM
Nearly started WWIII by missing a single key on the keyboard. Aj caramba! Problem now solved. Group hug!
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doorster
07-11-2007, 11:09 PM
Group hug!
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snakelegs
07-12-2007, 12:51 AM
what do you think the reaction will be to the lal masjid thing - esp. in NWFP?
i hope nothing else awful happens.
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islamirama
07-12-2007, 01:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
not just the Pakistanis, islamirama also wants us to destroy Muslim countries to spite America just before America destroys us
Hey doorknob, how the hell are you going to talk for me when you can't even talk straight for your ownself. So why don't you keep your mouth shut and stop putting words in my mouth before i break your handle.


Originally Posted by snakelegs


no, i didn't mean that, altho most certainly there was pressure from bush. bush has been pressuring president musharraf ever since 9/11.
many are critical of president musharraf for giving in to bush's orders - but what were his options?
i guess, according to people like islamirama, he should have told bush "no" and then the americans would've bombed pakistan the way they did afghanistan, but worse (since pakistan was not an already-destroyed nation) - and all the pakistanis would have been blessed with instant martyrdom and lived happily ever after.
you can see why this would have been preferable....:rolleyes:


Let me clarify this for your snakelegs since you are not a Muslim and don't quite understand where i'm coming from.


By saying yes, musharaaf killed more people than he could otherwise. By saying yes, he allowed bush to use pakistan as base to attack afghanistan. All those deaths of innocent afghans is not only on bush regime's head but also on musharaaf for aiding an enemy of islam in killing of Muslims. Had he stood is ground and said no to afghan, the invasion of afghan would have not been possible and the invasion of iraq would not have been possible, much less an attack on pakistan.

Muasharaaf himself said that US would be no where without it's help on this "war on terror" and he is right. He says he helped to protest its people but i highly doubt that. He sends a bill of service to US in billions for fighting "terrorists" every year. Where do you think all those billions go? surely, it doesn't cost billions for pakistan's army to go bomb and shoot tribal people and kidnap innocents and make them disappear.

Afghanistan is a poor and tribal country and yet it was able to fight soviet for 10yrs and drive them out. They would have managed to do the same to US if pakistan had helped like it did with the soviets. There would have been far less causalities as well. Pakistan has nuclear power, has strong military and what not, it's not a tribal nation that it can't fight back. Plus China would have came to help pakistan out out of it's own interest then to let US dominate that region.

Islamic prospective wise, everything musaraaf did is wrong and unacceptable not to mention treason against it's people, the ummah and islam. He is a munafiq (traitor) and would be hanged for his deception and aiding the enemies of Islam. He helped enemies of Islam bomb a Muslim nation, he helped by bombing and killing he's own country's Muslims. Everything he did was against Islam. Except for a few secular modernist fanatics like dookstopper here, all Muslims will tell you the same thing. So you can see why i've stated what i've stated thus far.

It's not a matter of matyrdom but of what is right islamic wise and what he should have done compared to what he did do. If pakistan was attacked and that is a big IF, then it would have fought back asking help from it's allies. There would have been causalities but no nation wiped out nor other nations invaded. Even though bush's people threatened him, i highly doubt they would have attacked and even then they would have gotten no where. And all the bloodshed and these invasion of afghan, iraq and this "war on terror" would have not been possible. So you see busharaaf did more wrong then right and even though he may have had some concern for his country but he had ulterior motives more than concerns for the public. Those ulterior motives add up to billions of dollar in foreign accounts.

Just think about it, I don't think any nation that has military and power to fight would listen to another sovereign nation's threat and not start an uproar in the media. Look at how well chavez has been able to keep US off of it's soil. Busharaaf would've been able to protect his country without even any armed forces just by using his mouth a bit more like chavez does.
Reply

islamirama
07-12-2007, 01:34 AM
A Red Mosque that breathes fire

http://www.iviews.com/Articles/artic...ef=GN0707-3311

---------------

Bloodbath at the Red Mosque

http://www.iviews.com/Articles/artic...ef=IV0707-3313
Reply

doorster
07-12-2007, 01:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Hey doorknob, how the hell are you going to talk for me when you can't even talk straight for your ownself. So why don't you keep your mouth shut and stop putting words in my mouth before i break your handle.
@ Staff

Do you seriously want this thing as a rep for Islam?

if yes could you show me from which Islamic book he is getting his way of speech speech?

which book justifies " Pakistan can destroy U.S bases in Muslim countries before going down itself"
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-12-2007, 02:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
Cognescenti,
"paki" is a derogatory word - has similar connotations as the "n word".
i dunno what the fuss is bout that word. Pak itself means clean, pure. So its a compliment really. I call myself paki, big woop.

I want away wit Musharraf. You know he's destroyed 7 mosques in the past? Any1 wana support him still?
Reply

doorster
07-12-2007, 02:08 AM
Any1 wana support him still?
yes, me
Reply

NoName55
07-12-2007, 02:10 AM
and me
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-12-2007, 02:11 AM
^^Ok, i jus hope u dont cheer if he destroys another masjid.

:sl:
Reply

Woodrow
07-12-2007, 02:15 AM
It spite of what we may think. This is not a war between members. This is not a war zone.

I'm closing the thread at least until I have time to clean out some of the shrapnel that seems to be flying around. I'm not going to start cleaning until at least tomorrow as I would like to just get rid of the unnecessary stuff and not just delete all of the posts from point A to point Z.

:threadclo
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