What is the importance of the quran not being corrupted and..

[ranma1/2]

What does the corruption or lack of corruption of the quran prove and why should we believe it has not been changed?

[ranma1/2]

so any takers?

[Keltoi]

I'm not a Muslim, but I would think the answer is obvious from the perspective of a Muslim. Uncorrupted meaning unaltered. As for "proof" that the Qu'ran is uncorrupted....well, that is much easier to prove to a Muslim than it is to a non-Muslim, as with most theological issues.

[Umar001]

Why should we believe it has not changed.

I think for a fuller discussion maybe head to the Refutation area.

In a nutshell, I am not knowledgeable, so don't think 'is that it', but in my view, I think the circumstances of the believers at the time made its retention very likely. I also add to that that most of the obligation raised forth, in my view, are very weak.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[^..sTr!vEr..^]

I think because its so amazing! And it challenges human beings to bring just one, only one surah similar to that of Quran. If someone gives it a try maybe then we can think over it...
wasalam.

[ranma1/2]

Why should we believe it has not changed.

I think for a fuller discussion maybe head to the Refutation area.

In a nutshell, I am not knowledgeable, so don't think 'is that it', but in my view, I think the circumstances of the believers at the time made its retention very likely. I also add to that that most of the obligation raised forth, in my view, are very weak.

im not asking if it has been changed but why is it so important that it hasnt?
It seems that it acts as evidence of some sort?
But all it seems to me is evidence that it hasnt changed at best.

[aamirsaab]

im not asking if it has been changed but why is it so important that it hasnt?

'Cus it is the last book of religious guidance - as it has not been altered we can accept it as THE TRUTH from God.

Simple innit. :D

[ranma1/2]

'Cus it is the last book of religious guidance - as it has not been altered we can accept it as THE TRUTH from God.

Simple innit. :D

at best is evidence that it has not been altered.

Are you saying god had influenced the quran?
How?
It seems to me that the only thing done is strict conditions for its reproduction.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

for the Quran is preserved by Allah.
If the quran is chaged then it proves that a command by Allah failed.


Also the challenge to rpoduce a surah like the quran still applies till today..and no one has met it
If it can be met or has been met then it show Allah was bested in his own challenge..

[ranma1/2]

Salaam,

for the Quran is preserved by Allah.
If the quran is chaged then it proves that a command by Allah failed.


Also the challenge to rpoduce a surah like the quran still applies till today..and no one has met it
If it can be met or has been met then it show Allah was bested in his own challenge..

so allah has somehow prevented it from being corrupted?
Or is it due to man and some sort of strict procedures?
Is it possible for me to change the quran? Say i write my own version, get it printed ect.. or will some force stop me?

as for allahs decrees, is it only particular ones? like not eating certain kinds of meat? or decrees only made to muslims? etc...

[seeker_of_ilm]

Peace

The importance of the Qur'aan not being corrupted, is that it shows we have the unaltered Qur'aan as revealed by Allaah to Muhammad [Peace be upon him]. Now with you being an atheist/agnostic, you will not believe the Qur'aan to be the word of God, however that is irrelelavent to the point being made. The point being made is not necessarily that an unaltered book equals divine revelation from God, but that it is free from any corruptions, and has stood the test of time.

The Qur'aan being the divine revelation from Allaah is another topic.

[Zulkiflim]

so allah has somehow prevented it from being corrupted?
Or is it due to man and some sort of strict procedures?
Is it possible for me to change the quran? Say i write my own version, get it printed ect.. or will some force stop me?

as for allahs decrees, is it only particular ones? like not eating certain kinds of meat? or decrees only made to muslims? etc...

Salaam,

It is not somehow,,but the quran cannot be corrupted..

Man is the tool ,,,,but as you ahve noted even the old books ,,other holy books are corrupted due to men greeds and vices...

You can write your own version but then any muslim who rad it will jknow it is not the quran.

Dont worry,many have tried it already and all failed,for 1400 years the pureness of the Qurna is enver questioned.

I dont quite understand baout your question on decrees,it is appplicable wo who worship Allah and revere the Propehts..

[MuslimSis&proud]

Peace

Also remember that the Quran was sent down to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him) by an angel, And is the words of God/Allah, this is clear proof in the Quran as its spoken many times about future events, so therefore how can a human 1400 years ago predict future events that have either already taken place or are taking place now, and also things that have yet to come. Therefore this is one of many proofs that it is the word of God/Allah (and has not been corrupted by man or men), as no man is capable of predicting the future and major future events. And if you study the quran you will see clearly its the best way of life, If you have doubts and are sincere then use you own brain to research islam, as God knows everything and whats best for us. Hope this helps answer you query, if not inshAllah (God Willing) someone else with better knowledge may be able to help you. :sunny:

I will try to post as much as i can of these, or hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me could possible post them instead. :sunny:

ps. sorry if any of that didnt make sence i have a major headache and have had very little sleep the day before, so please forgive if its incoherent.

[Strzelecki]

Also remember that the Quran was sent down to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him) by an angel, And is the words of God/Allah, this is clear proof in the Quran as its spoken many times about future events, so therefore how can a human 1400 years ago predict future events that have either already taken place or are taking place now, and also things that have yet to come.

Not to mention scientific truths that were 'Risky ideas' among other groups at the time. :)

[ranma1/2]

Peace

Also remember that the Quran was sent down to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him) by an angel, And is the words of God/Allah, this is clear proof in the Quran as its spoken many times about future events, so therefore how can a human 1400 years ago predict future events that have either already taken place or are taking place now, and also things that have yet to come. Therefore this is one of many proofs that it is the word of God/Allah (and has not been corrupted by man or men), as no man is capable of predicting the future and major future events. And if you study the quran you will see clearly its the best way of life, If you have doubts and are sincere then use you own brain to research islam, as God knows everything and whats best for us. Hope this helps answer you query, if not inshAllah (God Willing) someone else with better knowledge may be able to help you. :sunny:

I will try to post as much as i can of these, or hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me could possible post them instead. :sunny:

ps. sorry if any of that didnt make sence i have a major headache and have had very little sleep the day before, so please forgive if its incoherent.

the question isnt about whats in the quran but why it is so important for it to not be changed.

[Malaikah]

so allah has somehow prevented it from being corrupted?
Or is it due to man and some sort of strict procedures?
Is it possible for me to change the quran? Say i write my own version, get it printed ect.. or will some force stop me?

as for allahs decrees, is it only particular ones? like not eating certain kinds of meat? or decrees only made to muslims? etc...

There is nothing stopping you, though i obviously would not recommend it. However there are billions of copies of the real Quran world wide so you would be exposed sooner or later.

Also, the main importance of the Quran being preserved is that it is written in the Quran that Allah will prevent it from being corrupted. If it were shown that the Quran we have is not the same as the original then it means God did not fulfil the promise, it would prove that the Quran is wrong.

But, obviously, it is not true because the Quran has been preserved, as is evidenced by the strict compilation made by the Prophets companions.

[vpb]

the question isnt about whats in the quran but why it is so important for it to not be changed.

1. because the Qur'an is a book sent for people till the Day of Judgement
2. if it would have been altered, the Qur'an would contradict itself.
3. if it would have been altered then Qur'an would be in the same level as Bible and Torah, while we believe Qur'an was sent to confirm the other books and put people of those books in the right path. (muslims' view)
4. if it would have been altered then another messenger would be needed to be sent for people of our time, in order to provide us with the right guidance, but we know that Muhammed saws is the last Prophet, so Qur'an can't be altered (Allah promised that will protect it).
5. if it would have been altered, it would not be the word of God, but merely a human production.

etc....

[ranma1/2]

There is nothing stopping you, though i obviously would not recommend it. However there are billions of copies of the real Quran world wide so you would be exposed sooner or later.

Also, the main importance of the Quran being preserved is that it is written in the Quran that Allah will prevent it from being corrupted. If it were shown that the Quran we have is not the same as the original then it means God did not fulfil the promise, it would prove that the Quran is wrong.

But, obviously, it is not true because the Quran has been preserved, as is evidenced by the strict compilation made by the Prophets companions.

oh no doubt, but still if god cant prevent me from changing it then he fails right?
So where in the quran does god say he will prevent us from changing it or does he ask us not to change ? Im not clear on that.
And why did god take so long to decide to do this. He could have saved millionsof lives by starting off with not allowing it to be corrupted.

[ranma1/2]

1. because the Qur'an is a book sent for people till the Day of Judgement
2. if it would have been altered, the Qur'an would contradict itself.
3. if it would have been altered then Qur'an would be in the same level as Bible and Torah, while we believe Qur'an was sent to confirm the other books and put people of those books in the right path. (muslims' view)
4. if it would have been altered then another messenger would be needed to be sent for people of our time, in order to provide us with the right guidance, but we know that Muhammed saws is the last Prophet, so Qur'an can't be altered (Allah promised that will protect it).
5. if it would have been altered, it would not be the word of God, but merely a human production.

etc....

1. evidence?
2. there are some that believe it does contradict itself.
3. there are those that believe it is.
4. there are those that believe it is not true to start with...
heck other similar based religions have shown up.
and that whys john smith showed up... ect...
5. evidence? even if it hasnt been altered it can still be the word of humans.

5.

[seeker_of_ilm]

oh no doubt, but still if god cant prevent me from changing it then he fails right?
So where in the quran does god say he will prevent us from changing it or does he ask us not to change ? Im not clear on that.
And why did god take so long to decide to do this. He could have saved millionsof lives by starting off with not allowing it to be corrupted.

No, God does not fail if he does not stop you from creating your own blemished version of the Qur'aan. You have free-will, do as you will. However, God would be failing to keep his promise, if the Qur'aan as revealed by Allaah to Muhammad [Peace be upon him], ceased to exist, and only corrupted versions existed. However, such a thing will never happen, we have millions of copies of the true Qur'aan, and it is carved in the hearts of millions of believers, young and old alike.

There can, and have been corrupted versions of the Qur'aan, however, they were NEVER and will NEVER be accepted as the true Qur'aan by this Ummah.

It says in the Qur'an:-

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. [15:9]

The issue of previous nations books not being preserved, Ansar Al-'Adl already answered:-

Previous revelations were specific to the nation for which they were sent, hence the test for the people was to preserve the text. For the Qur'an, its message is universal, os insteading of being tested with preserving the text, Muslims have the test of propagating the message to the world, while God preserves the text. So everyone was tested, just in different ways.

For previous revelations, God entrusted the duty of their preservation to their nation. But for the Qur'an, Muslims do not have the duty of its preservation but its propagation as the Qur'an is a revelation for all humanity (previous prophets were sent specifically to their nations).

The nations who recieved the Tawrat and the Injeel were entrusted by God with the task of its preservation. But the final message from God, the Qur'an, was entrusted to Muslims with the task of its PROPAGATION to all the people of the world, and this time the task of its preservation was taken by God.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said: 'Every Prophet used to be sent to his people alone but I have been sent to all mankind'. (Sahîh Bukhârî)

In other words, the previous nations did not have the same test of having to propagate the message to all humanity, it was only their nation that had to implement it. For example, the people of Africa are not responsible for the message of Prophet Jesus pbuh.

The Qur'an however has been sent for all mankind, as God's final revelation. It is also interesting to note that this is an era where a universal message is more practical as it is the age of global communcation and exchange of ideas. So Muslims have the duty to propagate this message everywhere, and with that extra duty they are relieved of the task of preserving it.

[^..sTr!vEr..^]

Quran is the central book surrounding my faith. Thats it.

[ranma1/2]

so why did god not "promise" before the quran?
and what action did god perform to keep this promise?
It seems to me that the only actions have been done by mankind.

[Zulkiflim]

so why did god not "promise" before the quran?
and what action did god perform to keep this promise?
It seems to me that the only actions have been done by mankind.

Salaam,

Obviously only Allah knows best. why other books were corrupted.

But as we can see the Quran say,they changed the words for a paltry price.
And this world is but a test,to see if people who say they belong to a particular faith WILL follow the Divine laws...

And Allah has sent Propeht after Prophet to teach the People of the true way,some of the Propeht were killed and other were subjugated and oppresed.

But in the end the message is told and then corrupted again.

Until the final Book which is the Quran.

[vpb]

1. evidence?
2. there are some that believe it does contradict itself.
3. there are those that believe it is.
4. there are those that believe it is not true to start with...
heck other similar based religions have shown up.
and that whys john smith showed up... ect...

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/

you have plenty of information in the above two links to read about the Qur'an. :)

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/

5. evidence? even if it hasnt been altered it can still be the word of humans.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...acle/ijaz.html

also this is a very good article ^^

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/

so why did god not "promise" before the quran?

were the messengers before Muhammed saws sent as Last Messengers??? NO. (from muslims' point of view). Muhammed saws is the Seal of the Prophets. So if Muhammed saws is the last messenger, then the book should be protected since it is the last book, and no other book is going to be sent till day of judgement. If Qur'an would be altered, then ppl would have no guidance and another messenger would be needed, so would it be right to leave ppl without any guidance?? (Allah says in the Qur'an, that HE doesn't punish people without sending them a messenger), second , would Allah swt sent another messenger? (No, bc Allah swt doesn't lie or break his promise, cuz Allah swt said in the Qur'an that Muhammed is the last Messenger, with the last book). Also considering that Qur'an/Muhammed saws was sent for the whole world, not just for a particular nation.

But as for the previous books? did Allah swt say to the people that Jesus a.s or Moses a.s ... were the last prophets ??? No. The Torah got altered, then Jesus was sent, then the bible got altered , the Qur'an was sent. Allah left the responsibility to people to preserve books like Torah, Bible (Injeel) .etc. but people still failed to, some altered it intentionally some not, but at the end, the altered it, and changed Allah's words, and made haram>halal, and halal>haram. So Allah swt told us that as for the Qur'an , HE will protect it. and indeed it is protected. (try the links I provided u with above).

and what action did god perform to keep this promise?

is it necessary for muslims to ask this question? I don't think so. Allah swt told us that HE will protect it, how, myself it wouldn't matter. We just know it is. But if you want to know then,

here are just two short articles.
http://www.islam101.com/quran/source_quran.html
http://www.islam101.com/quran/preservedQ.htm

It seems to me that the only actions have been done by mankind.

as I said above, we don't mind how it is done, the main point is that , Allah swt promised us that HE will protect it.

an example:
When someone says to you that I will take care of this thing, don't worry. Should you really ask him how are you going to do it? Absolutely not. You trust that person, and u just know that he will take care of the thing that he promised u.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

1. evidence?
2. there are some that believe it does contradict itself.
3. there are those that believe it is.
4. there are those that believe it is not true to start with...
heck other similar based religions have shown up.
and that whys john smith showed up... ect...
5. evidence? even if it hasnt been altered it can still be the word of humans.

5.

hi.
1. maybe this is something that the human being is falling short of , in that maybe its the human being that needs to change whats within themselves, than to keep on digging and digging, until they end up exhausting themselves and giving up hope that there is something at the bottom of the hole. In other words, maybe the human being needs to reflect on whats within themselves.
2. the quran doesn't contradict itself. i would say to these people that they should study the the interpretation's of it. it would help alot.
3. I would say to those, what is their evidence/s for such a conclusion?
4. same as 3
5. no, it cannot. Because the person who it was revealed to (prophet Muhammad -peace be upon him) was an illiterate. how would that be possible then?? there are also amazing verses (such as the ones about the development of the human fetus) which conform to science. there is no way that a human being could have even known that 1400 years ago which out the aid modern technology.

peace

[guyabano]

me, it just puzzles, if, 'someone' claim to be a god, why it took then 23 years to finish the quaran???
Supposed to be, 'he' would have finished that within a second, IF he's a god?

I don't get that !

[Ummu Sufyaan]

me, it just puzzles, if, 'someone' claim to be a god, why it took then 23 years to finish the quaran???
Supposed to be, 'he' would have finished that within a second, IF he's a god?

I don't get that !

i think you are looking at it through a completely different window. it seems to me that you are looking at it through the window of capability. its not that Allah was unable to reveal it in a min. He was. whats the point of revealing it all in one go?? its like here have a book and model your lives based in it, but dont worry about not understanding it in its proper context. believe me, by Allah revealing the quran in that 23 years, is a blessing in disguise, because one has to look at in in its proper context to understand it, and thats where revelation in stages comes in. what would you do if your teacher was to hand you out your years work worth of homework and assignments, with out you beng taught before hand of the background of them? get my drift??

[Zulkiflim]

me, it just puzzles, if, 'someone' claim to be a god, why it took then 23 years to finish the quaran???
Supposed to be, 'he' would have finished that within a second, IF he's a god?

I don't get that !

Salaam,

The Quran is a book of gudance and it also tell of laws that were passed unto the Propeht during the Propeht lifetme.

In short you can say hat it is a historical account of the Propeht life but in terms of response from Allah.

So it last as long as the Propeht is alive.

Simple right..

[ranma1/2]

hi.

1. evidence?
1. maybe this is something that the human being is falling short of , in that maybe its the human being that needs to change whats within themselves, than to keep on digging and digging, until they end up exhausting themselves and giving up hope that there is something at the bottom of the hole. In other words, maybe the human being needs to reflect on whats within themselves.

so there is none?

hi
2. there are some that believe it does contradict itself.
2. the quran doesn't contradict itself. i would say to these people that they should study the the interpretation's of it. it would help alot.

they would disagree. And they have there own scholars that would disagree.

hi
3. there are those that believe it is.
3. I would say to those, what is their evidence/s for such a conclusion?

The quran i imagine.

hi
4. there are those that believe it is not true to start with...
4. same as 3

see above.
Of course I believe its not true. Its origin from god is also bourght into doubt since you need people to tell you what it means. It is hardly made for the common man.

hi
5. evidence? even if it hasnt been altered it can still be the word of humans
5. no, it cannot. Because the person who it was revealed to (prophet Muhammad -peace be upon him) was an illiterate. how would that be possible then?? there are also amazing verses (such as the ones about the development of the human fetus) which conform to science. there is no way that a human being could have even known that 1400 years ago which out the aid modern technology.

peace

Yes it can. The illiteracy of the prophet is also brought into doubt. Even if he could not write "as much of the population" he did supposedly have "secretaries". Heck it took him so long to get it written they could have changed it then and there and he would not have likely rememebered it being different. There are plenty of plaucible explanations of how it could have been written. Not to mention the serious doubt into the validity of the "science". I still state that the "science" was known at the time and most of the "science" is nothing more but loose reading of something "with liberal translation" to fit vaguley another idea way after the fact.
Im curious why has the quran not inspired any science?

[guyabano]

i think you are looking at it through a completely different window. it seems to me that you are looking at it through the window of capability. its not that Allah was unable to reveal it in a min. He was. whats the point of revealing it all in one go?? its like here have a book and model your lives based in it, but dont worry about not understanding it in its proper context. believe me, by Allah revealing the quran in that 23 years, is a blessing in disguise, because one has to look at in in its proper context to understand it, and thats where revelation in stages comes in. what would you do if your teacher was to hand you out your years work worth of homework and assignments, with out you beng taught before hand of the background of them? get my drift??

heh ?

I just call that circling around, but finllay I see no answer in that?

[- Qatada -]

heh ? http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/konfus/a015.gif

I just call that circling around, but finllay I see no answer in that?

Allaah says (translation of the meaning):

“Had We sent down this Quran on a mountain, you would surely have seen it humbling itself and rendering asunder by the fear of Allah.”

(Quran 59:21)

However, Allaah had a greater plan than to simply place it on a mountain for the Messenger to recieve.


The Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23years so we could see the context of the verses. If you've actually read the Qur'an you'll see that certain verses were revealed during the time the Muslims were weak and oppressed, then other verses were revealed when the Muslims had their own state and faced the battlefield, other verses were revealed when the Muslims were secure, others were revealed when the Muslims were an established authority etc.


When we read the Qur'an, we see how it is in relation to the Prophet and his companions (which is also preserved for us authentically.) Therefore, any situation the Muslims face, they see the Prophetic example, they see the verses in regard to that situation so they can respond in a similar manner. This is then the perfect example for us as believers, and if we see any situation during the lifetime of the Prophet and his companions, we can follow their example and be successful.

With the Qur'an being revealed gradually has a greater wisdom behind it than just being revealed within one go.





Regards.

[جوري]

heh ? http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/konfus/a015.gif

I just call that circling around, but finllay I see no answer in that?

let me give you an analogy that perhaps would be more satisfactory and relevant, since I don't believe you can see eye to eye with someone who is standing at a different intersection ... firstly I don't think anyone should/could discuss a book any book really having skimmed through cliff notes. It doesn't work in any subject... least or most of which an entire doctrine that is centuries old of whom people spend a life time learning and still have a lack of perceptiveness to some basic fundamentals. I for instance speak perfect Arabic as it is my mother tongue and am constantly posing questions to scholars.. I can give you a quick example of that before I get back on track with my original example.. but someone was speaking about say the gardens of heaven (Janna) being heaven and I was arguing the that word Janna in and of itself literally in Arabic could be taken to denote that which is hidden/shielded from sight a derivative of the word jinoon and jinn-- you can see here multiple meaning in the dictionary

Dictionaries - القواميس

Arabic - English
جَنَّة اســــــــــــم الجَنَّة , جَنَّاتُ النَّعِيم : الفِرْدَوْس
Heaven , elysium , paradise , eden
حَدِيقَة
garden , grassy , grove , greensward , prairie , green , lawn , green field , greens , turf , grassy plot , sod , grassland , fruit garden
فِرْدَوْس
eden , heaven , elysium , garden , Heaven , paradise

جُنَّة اســــــــــــم تُرْس
shield , pliers , cuirass , scutum
سِتْر
covering , cover , guarding , shield , cover

جنَّة مـــصــــــدر جُنُون
insanity , mental disorder , slight lunacy , foolishness , folly , craziness , craze , contact , imbecility , madness , lunacy , mental derangement , dementia

.. my logic being that in the Quran it states that there is that which no eye has seen nor ears have heard, thus one can't concluded or even perceive what Janna truly denotes, unless made into assimilation of things we readily understand and know, thus I didn't think that Janna meant gardens but had a more in depth meaning.. so I asked and I got an answer from someone who is better read than me.. obviously this is a very trivial topic and doesn't deal with other major issues of which in fact in spite of my Arabic would need a scholarly opinion (state affairs/ inheritance/ usury/ marriage/business) etc..

Islam is a way of life and isn't something that can be understood in a casual read.. now to get back to my original point of why G-D didn't reveal the Quran all at once when he is perfectly capable of doing it, after all he is Allah!..

I'll use the case of an elderly gentleman who walks into your office with severe hyponatrmia that is (abnormally low level of sodium in the blood) off the bat you might not think it is a big deal, get some anchovies and you'd be all set? fact is it is a very serious and severe problem and far more encompassing than a few words echoed in this post-- but just know that there is a set of problems that you'd need to dig deeper, to see for instance if this is a case of hyponatrmia with high serum osmolarity which could be a result of uncorrected hyperglycemia ( in a diabetic patient).. hyponatremia with normal serum osmolarity in which case you'd have to gear your thought more toward a defect in lipids or proteins... in other words the patient could potentially have an underlying liver problem due to alcoholism or cirrhosis or high cholesterol, you can have hyponatremia with low osmolarity in which case you have to determine what the extra fluid status is of this patient is, and with that comes a host of other problems, is the defect renal? is it congestive heart failure? is it syndrome of inappropriate anti-diuretic hormone secretion (SIADH) is it medication, is it nephrotic syndrome? is it hypothyroidism is it glucocorticoid deficiency ( the problem list is endless) ...

you think to yourself my G-D one tiny little electrolyte deficiency and the sky is falling.. if that wasn't enough of a problem to worry about.. correcting the problem in an of itself is a whole other dilemma.. are you feeling the weight of the responsibility? if you don't correct this, the person could potentially go into coma and die.. no joke here.. if you correct it too fast, let's say it is the sort of situation that calls for fluid correction and you simply decide to replace fluids with a saline solution, obviously containing the missing electrolyte sodium.. do you know what will happen? you end up with osmotic demyelination syndrome Aka central pontine myelinolysis - which manifests with mutism, dysphasia, spastic quadriparesis and pseudobulbar palsy a few days later and again your patient will die.. you've killed someone when you tried to give them simple salt a little too fast for their poor and tired body... If you were the person responsible on either front acting too fast or not acting at all will lead to death, so you use your logic, you are a conscionable human being and you think this person could be your father or your uncle, and you really want them to make it.. so you decide which is the best strategy to see them through...

I know you were probably looking for a simpler answer.. but there is no simple answer to a complex situation. Some things might seem elementarily simple and to the naked eye they really are, but that is just the tip of the ice berg and I hope I have demonstrated that to you on some remote level why there is wisdom in allowing something to cascade slowly than give it all in one shot...
peace!

[Ummu Sufyaan]

heh ? http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/konfus/a015.gif

I just call that circling around, but finllay I see no answer in that?

how is that circling around? i simply tried to give you a comparison, in hope that you could see it from a different perspective.
peace

[MustafaMc]

What does the corruption or lack of corruption of the quran prove and why should we believe it has not been changed?

There is no evidence to indicate that the Quran has been corrupted, tampered with, or otherwise altered since the time it was collated immediately after the death of Prophet Muhammad (saaws). There is only one Arabic version of the Quran that is still written and understood in the language of revelation. There were many companions of the Prophet (saaws) who memorized the Quran as it was being revealed and the Angel Jibrael would review the revealed portions of the Quran with Prophet Muhammad (saaws) each year during Ramadan. We Muslims believe that the Quran we have is the same as what was revealed to Muhammad (saaws) 1,400 years ago.

In my opinion, this lack of corruption does not prove more to the non-believer than Muslims were very diligent to preserve the Quran. I believe, however, that it is evidence that the Quran is the revealed Word of Allah and that He protected it from corruption as was prophesied in the Quran.

The importance of the lack of corruption is that, if the Quran is a revelation from Allah, then we have confidence that what we read is from Allah and not something made up by man.

[ranma1/2]

There is no evidence to indicate that the Quran has been corrupted, tampered with, or otherwise altered since the time it was collated immediately after the death of Prophet Muhammad (saaws). There is only one Arabic version of the Quran that is still written and understood in the language of revelation. There were many companions of the Prophet (saaws) who memorized the Quran as it was being revealed and the Angel Jibrael would review the revealed portions of the Quran with Prophet Muhammad (saaws) each year during Ramadan. We Muslims believe that the Quran we have is the same as what was revealed to Muhammad (saaws) 1,400 years ago.

In my opinion, this lack of corruption does not prove more to the non-believer than Muslims were very diligent to preserve the Quran. I believe, however, that it is evidence that the Quran is the revealed Word of Allah and that He protected it from corruption as was prophesied in the Quran.

The importance of the lack of corruption is that, if the Quran is a revelation from Allah, then we have confidence that what we read is from Allah and not something made up by man.

I think one point many doubters bring up is that you only take your quran from one point in its existence. Assuming it can be proven that all current versions are from that, what about proir works or for that matter how did it change even before it was written down.

And why did god not prevent his other works from corruption?
And how did he prevent this work from corruption? "it seems to me that all prevention was done my man"

[E'jaazi]

What does the corruption or lack of corruption of the quran prove and why should we believe it has not been changed?

Because the original Qu'ran (manuscript) still exist.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

so there is none?




they would disagree. And they have there own scholars that would disagree.




The quran i imagine.



see above.
Of course I believe its not true. Its origin from god is also bourght into doubt since you need people to tell you what it means. It is hardly made for the common man.




Yes it can. The illiteracy of the prophet is also brought into doubt. Even if he could not write "as much of the population" he did supposedly have "secretaries". Heck it took him so long to get it written they could have changed it then and there and he would not have likely rememebered it being different. There are plenty of plaucible explanations of how it could have been written. Not to mention the serious doubt into the validity of the "science". I still state that the "science" was known at the time and most of the "science" is nothing more but loose reading of something "with liberal translation" to fit vaguley another idea way after the fact.
Im curious why has the quran not inspired any science?

1. im not going to speak without knowlege. I never said that there wasn't any evidence. Even if I had evidence for you, you will still come up with some other argument to argue.

2. what's that got to do with me?? that's their own problem. i've given you what iam ale to give you, its up to you now to accept or reject it.

3. And what exactly is in the quran that would make them come up with that conclusion?

4. Well, if it was from a man, what use would that be? it would just cause confusion among people, as people have a tendency to disagree alot. i mean no offence to Christians, but take the Bible for example. And since we are talking about man written scriptures, I will put the argument to you as Allah has in a number of verses in the quran, the following being one of them: "And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful. (Translation 2:23)

5. Firstly, I do not appreciate you insulting the prophets (peace be upon him's) companions like this. Secondly its not my problem that people are in doubt. Why do people keep on bringing up ridicules arguments.
Did you ever even read abit about them? Maybe their honesty for example, or even their struggle for the religion is islam. Maybe you should, then that way oyu can see their hnsty and their no need to even think about, let alone put into practise trying to 'corrupt' (not that you could, even if you tried) the quran. Why would God fearing people (which they were great examples of) do that? They respected Gods Will much more than to try to corrupt it. Read the translation of these verses: "(This is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds. And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name, We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart: Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath)." (69: 43-47). So this is Allah referring to His messenger. So what about anyone below that status???
And no they wouldn't have forgotten. If you love something, you would o you best to preserve it, you would make it your life. And that's what they did, they preserved the practice of the quran, as well as well as its words.
And as for the science being known at the time, really, this argument is just gong too far. Have you even read the verses in which I was referring too? Wouldn't have someone recorded sometime of such technologies at that time, so that others would build on their knowledge? Why would someone hide something like that??

It just seems to me in your posts that no matter what people put forth to you, you insist on rejecting it, and coming up with arguments after arguments. The more people justify, the more you argue.

[Zulkiflim]

I think one point many doubters bring up is that you only take your quran from one point in its existence. Assuming it can be proven that all current versions are from that, what about proir works or for that matter how did it change even before it was written down.

And why did god not prevent his other works from corruption?
And how did he prevent this work from corruption? "it seems to me that all prevention was done my man"

Salaam,

I did not think you read the mustafamc reply to you ..

LEt me put i in point form..

1)Evry time a revelation came about,the Prophet recite it and those who heard it memorized it as well as scribes written it down.
2)For prayers muslim recite the Quran every day 5 times a day
3)Every Ramdhan the Propeht Muhammad saw would reicte the Quran till death.

And so you have scribes writing it down,thousand of people memorizing it,and USING it daily 5 times a day.

Also the Quran was colelcted into book form and arranged by the Prophet Muhamamd saw hand's that is how we got the chapters as they are.

Thus is the Quran remain uncorrupted.

But for you you doub the Quran authencity based on another reason.
You want to know why the other book are not preserved as well.

Thus becasue the other books are not preserved you say that disproves the Quran.

Allah knows best,but as is my reply before,Prophet after Propeht ws sent unto man with the same message.
And yet those messages were corrupted.
And Allah sent another Propeht and another.
And fnally Allah sent the Propeht Muhamamd saw and revealed the Quran,with a promise to keep it inviolate.

Thus you now have one book that is inviolate,unchaged but wonder why other book are not..
Thus you have book of divine guidance but shoose to follow other corrupted books.

That is a mystery as any..LOL..Allah knows best

Hmm...

[ranma1/2]

Salaam,

I did not think you read the mustafamc reply to you ..

LEt me put i in point form..

1)Evry time a revelation came about,the Prophet recite it and those who heard it memorized it as well as scribes written it down.
2)For prayers muslim recite the Quran every day 5 times a day
3)Every Ramdhan the Propeht Muhammad saw would reicte the Quran till death.

And so you have scribes writing it down,thousand of people memorizing it,and USING it daily 5 times a day.

...

So i know you have an original quran, but what about these scribings?
Who was there to verify they were written correctly?
2. this has to do with once it was in book form correct?
3. same here correct?

[ranma1/2]

4. Well, if it was from a man, what use would that be? it would just cause confusion among people, as people have a tendency to disagree alot.....
Heck this happens in islam. How many fanatics do you have? how many sects? Or are they not just true islams? Why do others not agree with the quran? It seems to do just the above.


I will put the argument to you as Allah has in a number of verses in the quran, the following being one of them: "And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful. (Translation 2:23)
?huh? what does this qoute mean? see if you can make a better one? Well for that i woudl recommend looking at the Book of the GFSM and check out his 10 i rather you didnts...

5. Firstly, I do not appreciate you insulting the prophets (peace be upon him's) companions like this.
how did i insult them? by doubting them or the story?

Secondly its not my problem that people are in doubt. Why do people keep on bringing up ridicules arguments.
such as?


Did you ever even read abit about them? Maybe their honesty for example, or even their struggle for the religion is islam. ...
Why would God fearing people do that?
Do what? corrupt the quran? I doubt few would intentionaly do that. But look at the bible. those same god fearing people have apparently done the same. You also seem to be forgetting that what you have is the current version of the quran. What was it like before it was in book form?

....And as for the science being known at the time, really, this argument is just gong too far. Have you even read the verses in which I was referring too?
Which verse? Sorry to many threads.
...
It just seems to me in your posts that no matter what people put forth to you, you insist on rejecting it, and coming up with arguments after arguments.

My problem is that your evidenec is the quran. Nothing else.

[vpb]

me, it just puzzles, if, 'someone' claim to be a god, why it took then 23 years to finish the quaran???
Supposed to be, 'he' would have finished that within a second, IF he's a god?

I don't get that !

well, if it would have been revealed during the night the whole Qur'an, I wonder how hard would it be for people to memorize it.

Would you be able to understand the whole book if your teacher teaches you the whole book in one day??
Of course not.

So ppl had a lot of time to memorize Qur'an by heart. That's why millions of people memorized the whole Qur'an. Also there is a reason for every verse that is revealed in the Qur'an, which helps scholars comment the Qur'an based on that. for ex. Ibn Abbas or Ibn Mas'ood (not sure which one), knew every single reason for every single ayat why it was sent, where and when. and we know today every single detail about the verses. there are millions of good things that we get as a result of Qur'an sent not in one night.

[vpb]

I will put the argument to you as Allah has in a number of verses in the quran, the following being one of them: "And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful. (Translation 2:23)
?huh? what does this qoute mean? see if you can make a better one?

You are just ignoring the posts that we are making, and keep insisting with these things.

I gave u above couple of links and seems u didn't even bother to check them. Is that how are you trying to understand the answer of the question of this thread???

but I'll post the link again.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...acle/ijaz.html

Do what? corrupt the quran? I doubt few would intentionaly do that. But look at the bible. those same god fearing people have apparently done the same. You also seem to be forgetting that what you have is the current version of the quran. What was it like before it was in book form?

http://www.islam101.com/quran/source_quran.html
http://www.islam101.com/quran/preservedQ.htm

again u didn't bother to read these links I provided u in my last post.

[Zulkiflim]

So i know you have an original quran, but what about these scribings?
Who was there to verify they were written correctly?
2. this has to do with once it was in book form correct?
3. same here correct?

Salaam,

What do you mean scribing?

Do you mean who checked the scribes?
Simple,the thousand and thousand of people who memeorized and would correct the scribes if they are wrong.

Also the writing are checked every ramadhan as the Prophet Muhamamd saw recited the entire quran from memory.
Alhamdulilah,many people of the muslim Ummah have memorized the quran for 1400 years and it is the same then and now.

I do not get what you are trying to say in point 2 and 3..

pls elaborate

[ranma1/2]

Salaam,

What do you mean scribing?

Do you mean who checked the scribes?
Simple,the thousand and thousand of people who memeorized and would correct the scribes if they are wrong.

Also the writing are checked every ramadhan as the Prophet Muhamamd saw recited the entire quran from memory.
Alhamdulilah,many people of the muslim Ummah have memorized the quran for 1400 years and it is the same then and now.

I do not get what you are trying to say in point 2 and 3..

pls elaborate

Scribes, or those that wrote down what mohamad said. So unless these 1000s were psychic they wouldnt know what was written untill after the fact.

[Zulkiflim]

Scribes, or those that wrote down what mohamad said. So unless these 1000s were psychic they wouldnt know what was written untill after the fact.

Salaam,

I have no idea what you are talking about..pls elaborate..

Psyhics?

Again i tell you that when ever the verses came down..

Prophet Muhammad saw would recite it.
It will be memorized by all who heard it.
And scribes would write it.
And people who memorize it will know it well due to high usage of verses during the 5 compulsory prayers.
Propeht Muhammad saw would recite the entire Quran as is,on ramadhan.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Heck this happens in islam. How many fanatics do you have? how many sects? Or are they not just true islams? Why do others not agree with the quran? It seems to do just the above.
i do not deny that there is sectarianism, or that Muslims have split into groups, etc. what my point is that that the quran has remained unchanged for centuries. it is the people that have differed from it, and decided not to follow it, as opposed to it changing, which is something completely different. just because people have differed, doesn't mean the quran has. The two scenarios are poles apart. it could be a misunderstanding of the quran by the people, etc. thats beyond the point however. The point is that the quran has remained unchanged for centuries, which proves that it is revealed by God, because if it hadn't been, than you would find it having different versions, which is what Allah has stated in the following verse: "“Do they not reflect upon the Quran? Were it from anyone other than Allah they would have found many inconsistencies therein.” (translation, 4:82) which of course there aren't any. I will go back to my argument of the bible.

?huh? what does this qoute mean? see if you can make a better one? Well for that i woudl recommend looking at the Book of the GFSM and check out his 10 i rather you didnts...
the book of what??

how did i insult them? by doubting them or the story?
Yes, thats exactly how you insulted them. Because they weren’t even like that. i sure you would despise being accused of something abhorrent that you know you didn't commit. I'm sure you would find it offense and insulting, would you not??

such as?
such the pathetic and baseless ones you keep on digging up.

Do what? corrupt the quran? I doubt few would intentionaly do that. But look at the bible. those same god fearing people have apparently done the same. You also seem to be forgetting that what you have is the current version of the quran. What was it like before it was in book form?

no no, the bible is a quite different story. you have people intentionally changing it, without forgetfulness, etc. just look at the hundreds of versions of it. there is no way that was done unintentionally, if it was really the truth, it wouldn't have even been changed.
And no, your're the one that seems to state things, and out ofignorance, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. the quran which you see among the Muslims is a copy, as opposed to a version (they are two completely different things) of what they had back in those days.

Which verse? Sorry to many threads.
...
these one for example: "Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!"
(tansltion 23:12-15)

My problem is that your evidenec is the quran. Nothing else.[/QUOTE]

Exactly my point. You cant accept the quran as being the truth, so you come up with arguments, making it look like there is something wrong with the quran, rather than yourself.

[ranma1/2]

....what my point is that that the quran has remained unchanged for centuries.
and yet it being "uncorrupted" has not prevented confusion.

.... The point is that the quran has remained unchanged for centuries, which proves that it is revealed by God, because if it hadn't been, than you would find it having different versions,
No all that may prove is that it hasnt changed. It has been up to muslims only to keep it as. Very strict procedures. All done my humans. Now if you did not memorize it do you think it would still have stayed the same? Doubtfully. All this shows is humans have tried as hard as possible to keep it the same once it was in written form.


which is what Allah has stated in the following verse: "“Do they not reflect upon the Quran?
What do you mean by this? Do you not have to have scholars tell you what the quran means?


Were it from anyone other than Allah they would have found many inconsistencies therein.” (translation, 4:82) which of course there aren't any.

As it is you have many inconsistencies on what particular words mean. Sure the word may be written down but there is much disagreement on what they mean. "one reason why you have the predictions is you have a variety of words to use."




the book of what??
The great flying spageti monster.
http://www.venganza.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gos...ghetti_Monster

how did i insult them? by doubting them or the story?
Yes, thats exactly how you insulted them. Because they weren’t even like that. i sure you would despise being accused of something abhorrent that you know you didn't commit. I'm sure you would find it offense and insulting, would you not??f

So its an insult to doubt. Well that settles that. ^_^!
So what was abhorrent? forgive me the posts was a while ago. It would be nice to have them here to give actual witness but alas all we have is the quran and stories.


Do what? corrupt the quran? I doubt few would intentionaly do that. But look at the bible. those same god fearing people have apparently done the same. You also seem to be forgetting that what you have is the current version of the quran. What was it like before it was in book form?

no no, the bible is a quite different story. you have people intentionally changing it, without forgetfulness, etc. just look at the hundreds of versions of it. there is no way that was done unintentionally, if it was really the truth, it wouldn't have even been changed.
It could easily have been changed. The main difference is that the regulations were not in place. There was a greater amount of illiteracy and very few people at the time new what the bible said. Muslims however made it apoint ot have everyone know and memorize.

...

...

these one for example: "Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!"
(translation 23:12-15)

we are not made from clay. and i think trumble already addressed the rest of this. This idea was known at the time and is incorrect. We are also made from a sperm "not a drop" and an egg. I dont think ill go on but this has been disproven as anything special.


My problem is that your evidenec is the quran. Nothing else.
Exactly my point. You cant accept the quran as being the truth, so you come up with arguments, making it look like there is something wrong with the quran, rather than yourself.

See that shows the difference. I need evidence you dont. You are essentially saying is dont think. I need more evidence than a book that says it is evidence for god cause it says so. Not to mention i have never seen anything special inthe book that you claim is there.

Back to the original point of the thread.
You think the lack of corruption is evidence for gods hand right.
What did god do to prevent its corruption? everything i have seen is just man preventing it. Nothing more. And even if the words have not changed the meaning "the important part" is different for everyone. You have sects that see if differently than you do etc....Surely god could at the very least make sure the meaning does not change and is understood by all.

[- Qatada -]

....what my point is that that the quran has remained unchanged for centuries.
and yet it being "uncorrupted" has not prevented confusion.

The Messenger of Allaah/God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

"I counsel you to have Taqwaa (God consciessness) of Allaah and to hear and obey, even if an Abyssinian [Ethiopian] slave were to command you. For, verily, whoever amongst you lives (to grown old), he will see many differences.

So stick to my Sunnah [path/guidance] and the Sunnah of the rightly guided khaleefahs. Cling tightly onto it and hold onto it with your molar teeth. And beware of newly invented matters. For, indeed, every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is a thing that leads astray, and everything that leads astray is in the Hellfire."

[Authentically Recorded in Abu Dawud]

Therefore the praise is for Allaah/God that He actually preserved the religion for us, and even if someone was to take things out of context - we could always refer to the authentic teachings of the Messenger of Allaah, and the direct recipients of the message - his companions.


Those who take it out of context can easily be refuted, because all we need to do is link them to the authentic teachings of the Prophet and his companions. This is where the confusion ends.

.... The point is that the quran has remained unchanged for centuries, which proves that it is revealed by God, because if it hadn't been, than you would find it having different versions,
No all that may prove is that it hasnt changed. It has been up to muslims only to keep it as. Very strict procedures. All done my humans. Now if you did not memorize it do you think it would still have stayed the same? Doubtfully. All this shows is humans have tried as hard as possible to keep it the same once it was in written form.

Did you know that the Christians tried to 'preserve' their texts but weren't able to authentically? The Catholics and the Protestants have different bibles, we as Muslims - no matter what group have one qur'an! Without any alterations, word by word, vowel by vowel! Allaah preserved the Qur'an for us, and yes - He preserved it through humans, how else would we know it's preserved?

which is what Allah has stated in the following verse: "“Do they not reflect upon the Quran?
What do you mean by this? Do you not have to have scholars tell you what the quran means?

Do you know the difference between the definition of reflect and meaning?


Reflect means to ponder over it's teachings, reflect on the narratives. The meaning of the laws are for the knowledgable, so you may reflect over a piece of work - yet you leave it upto the knowledgable of that field to teach it in the correct manner.

Were it from anyone other than Allah they would have found many inconsistencies therein.” (translation, 4:82) which of course there aren't any.

As it is you have many inconsistencies on what particular words mean. Sure the word may be written down but there is much disagreement on what they mean. "one reason why you have the predictions is you have a variety of words to use."

No there isn't, and here - this is an authentic link which has the interpretation of the verses according to the understanding of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah;


http://tafsir.com

It could easily have been changed. The main difference is that the regulations were not in place. There was a greater amount of illiteracy and very few people at the time new what the bible said. Muslims however made it apoint ot have everyone know and memorize.

Good, agreed.

these one for example: "Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!"
(translation 23:12-15)

we are not made from clay. and i think trumble already addressed the rest of this. This idea was known at the time and is incorrect. We are also made from a sperm "not a drop" and an egg. I dont think ill go on but this has been disproven as anything special.

The original creation of Adam pbuh was from the dust of the earth.

30:20 Among His Signs is this, that He created you from dust; and then,- behold, ye are men scattered (far and wide)!

This dust was then mixed with water to produce what is mentioned in the following verse:
15:26 And indeed, We created man from dried (sounding) clay of altered mud [min hama’in masnoon]

An interesting commentary on these verses has been provided here:
http://harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_08.php#1

Sheikh Muhammad Mutwalli Ash-Sha`rawi also comments:

If we take dust and add water to it, it will be mud. If it is left for some time, it will turn into clay. These are simply the stages of the creation of man. Man thus comes from dust, turned into clay after the addition of water. If we scrutinize this issue, we will find out that man, in his daily life, needs earth and depends on it in so many aspects. It is this earthy soil where we grow the plants upon which we live. Thus, preserving the materials of man depends on the source from which these materials are created.


Scientists have analyzed the human body and found that it is composed of 16 substances including oxygen and manganese. These elements are no more than the elements of the earth?s crust. This experiment was not meant for proving the credibility of the Qur'an; rather, it was solely for scientific research purposes.


In addition, death itself serves as a proof of creation. When we try to demolish a building, we follow the reverse order of building it; we start with the last floor. By the same token, since we have not eye-witnessed the creation of man, then we shall see how death occurs. Actually, we witness several deaths everyday. When man dies, his soul leaves his body, then the decline starts; his body becomes dry (which is similar to the stage of clay) and then decays and turns finally into dust which was his original substance. Life is given to man through the soul that is blown into his body. When the soul departs, man dies and starts his way back to his original form going through the stages of his first creation. Thus, death stands as a living proof for creation (SOURCE)

21:30...We made of water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
This verse explains that all living things are composed of water.

Dr. Zakir Naik has commented on the above verse by saying:

Only after advances have been made in science, do we now know that cytoplasm, the basic substance of the cell is made up of 80% water. Modern research has also revealed that most organisms consist of 50% to 90% water and that every living entity requires water for its existence. Was it possible 14 centuries ago for any human-being to guess that every living being was made of water? Moreover would such a guess be conceivable by a human being in the deserts of Arabia where there has always been scarcity of water? (SOURCE)

The following link also comments on this:
http://www.-----------------------/scientific_58.html

About the 'drop' - did you know that the sperm is within semen? Did you know that sperm when emitted comes out in a liquid form? This is then a drop, which has sperm within it.

"was he not a drop or part of germinal fluid (Mani) emitted or programmed" (Surah Al- Qiyama, Ayah 37)

Here "Mani" means male or female germinal fluid (Ref: 1D, 5/276: 5D, 10/348:2D, 6/2497).

The Prophet's Hadith confirms the fact that the offspring is created from part of the germinal fluids.

"Not from all the fluid is the offspring created"

(Sahih. Muslim: Kitab Al-Nekah, Bab Al-Azl)

It is also known that not all parts of the ejaculate are equally potent in the fertilisation process. "In the first portion of the ejaculate are the spermatozoa, epididymal fluids, and the secretions from the Cowper and prostate gland fluids. In the last portions of the ejaculate are the secretions of the seminal vesicles. Most spermatozoa appear in the first part of the ejaculate, which is made primarily of prostatic secretions. Thus spermatozoa in the initial portion of the ejaculate have better motility and survival than those in the later portions, which are chiefly vesicular in origin". (SOURCE)


http://www.islamicboard.com/19777-post15.html

See that shows the difference. I need evidence you dont. You are essentially saying is dont think. I need more evidence than a book that says it is evidence for god cause it says so. Not to mention i have never seen anything special inthe book that you claim is there.

And you've ever read it? Don't make claims when you havn't even read the book.

Back to the original point of the thread.
You think the lack of corruption is evidence for gods hand right.
What did god do to prevent its corruption? everything i have seen is just man preventing it.

And we've had countless of examples in history which havn't been preserved, letter for letter, vowel for vowel. Yet the Qur'an has. How can a book be preserved except through men? Did you think something would be preserved by other than that? If so - how would it be preserved if none knew it in it's original form?

Nothing more. And even if the words have not changed the meaning "the important part" is different for everyone.

You have sects that see if differently than you do etc....Surely god could at the very least make sure the meaning does not change and is understood by all.

That's why i've given you this link;

http://tafsir.com


Allaah has preserved the religion and it's authentic teachings for us, then it is upto us on whether we want to follow the true authentic preserved teachings, or if we want to take things out of context and purposelly go astray from the correct path.







Regards.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

....what my point is that that the quran has remained unchanged for centuries.
and yet it being "uncorrupted" has not prevented confusion.

.... The point is that the quran has remained unchanged for centuries, which proves that it is revealed by God, because if it hadn't been, than you would find it having different versions,
No all that may prove is that it hasnt changed. It has been up to muslims only to keep it as. Very strict procedures. All done my humans. Now if you did not memorize it do you think it would still have stayed the same? Doubtfully. All this shows is humans have tried as hard as possible to keep it the same once it was in written form.


which is what Allah has stated in the following verse: "“Do they not reflect upon the Quran?
What do you mean by this? Do you not have to have scholars tell you what the quran means?


Were it from anyone other than Allah they would have found many inconsistencies therein.” (translation, 4:82) which of course there aren't any.

As it is you have many inconsistencies on what particular words mean. Sure the word may be written down but there is much disagreement on what they mean. "one reason why you have the predictions is you have a variety of words to use."




the book of what??
The great flying spageti monster.
http://www.venganza.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gos...ghetti_Monster

how did i insult them? by doubting them or the story?
Yes, thats exactly how you insulted them. Because they weren’t even like that. i sure you would despise being accused of something abhorrent that you know you didn't commit. I'm sure you would find it offense and insulting, would you not??f

So its an insult to doubt. Well that settles that. ^_^!
So what was abhorrent? forgive me the posts was a while ago. It would be nice to have them here to give actual witness but alas all we have is the quran and stories.


Do what? corrupt the quran? I doubt few would intentionaly do that. But look at the bible. those same god fearing people have apparently done the same. You also seem to be forgetting that what you have is the current version of the quran. What was it like before it was in book form?

no no, the bible is a quite different story. you have people intentionally changing it, without forgetfulness, etc. just look at the hundreds of versions of it. there is no way that was done unintentionally, if it was really the truth, it wouldn't have even been changed.
It could easily have been changed. The main difference is that the regulations were not in place. There was a greater amount of illiteracy and very few people at the time new what the bible said. Muslims however made it apoint ot have everyone know and memorize.

...

...

these one for example: "Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!"
(translation 23:12-15)

we are not made from clay. and i think trumble already addressed the rest of this. This idea was known at the time and is incorrect. We are also made from a sperm "not a drop" and an egg. I dont think ill go on but this has been disproven as anything special.


My problem is that your evidenec is the quran. Nothing else.
Exactly my point. You cant accept the quran as being the truth, so you come up with arguments, making it look like there is something wrong with the quran, rather than yourself.

See that shows the difference. I need evidence you dont. You are essentially saying is dont think. I need more evidence than a book that says it is evidence for god cause it says so. Not to mention i have never seen anything special inthe book that you claim is there.

Back to the original point of the thread.
You think the lack of corruption is evidence for gods hand right.
What did god do to prevent its corruption? everything i have seen is just man preventing it. Nothing more. And even if the words have not changed the meaning "the important part" is different for everyone. You have sects that see if differently than you do etc....Surely god could at the very least make sure the meaning does not change and is understood by all.

and yet it being "uncorrupted" has not prevented confusion.
What?? What's that got to do with corruption?? Do you really expect for people to understand everything. Religion wise or not? No offence, but really take a reality check already!! And even when/if they do understand the Quran, it doesn’t guarantee that they are gonna adhere to it. It goes to show that the people are backwards, not the quran!! Two different things. It has nothing to do with the quran being so called corrupted, if people choose not to adhere to it.
And as for it causing confusion, this could just mean that the scholars who interpret the quran have more knowledge than others. For example some may be more advanced in Arabic than others (to have a strong background in Arabic is sometimes necessary when interrupting the quran) Therefore, they will come to different conclusions/opinions about certain things because some have had certain information reach them, whereas others haven't, therefore further causing a difference in opinion. Nothing to do with the corruption or so called corruption of the Quran.

No all that may prove is that it hasnt changed. It has been up to muslims only to keep it as. Very strict procedures. All done my humans. Now if you did not memorize it do you think it would still have stayed the same? Doubtfully. All this shows is humans have tried as hard as possible to keep it the same once it was in written form.
Well no, because that would be contradicting this verse: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)." (translation 15:9). Where do you get the idea that only Muslims/man has preserved it??
And yes I do think it would have stayed the same. I doubt that humans could have for 1400 years preseverd something by memory, religious script or not.
I also add in here brother Qatada's quote. "Allaah preserved the Qur'an for us, and yes - He preserved it through humans, how else would we know it's preserved?"

What do you mean by this? Do you not have to have scholars tell you what the quran means?
I also refer here to brother Qatada's point in regards to this question.

As it is you have many inconsistencies on what particular words mean. Sure the word may be written down but there is much disagreement on what they mean. "one reason why you have the predictions is you have a variety of words to use."
Says who, and where. Give an example please??

The great flying spageti monster.
http://www.venganza.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gos...ghetti_Monster
Well I researched this, and all I found was that some people believe that the creator is really some spaghetti monster. Just tell me; what/where would this "God" be if spaghetti wasn't invented?? If I wanted to, I could eat him. If he really was "God" he would have protected himself form that.


So its an insult to doubt. Well that settles that. ^_^!
So what was abhorrent? forgive me the posts was a while ago. It would be nice to have them here to give actual witness but alas all we have is the quran and stories.
In this case, yes because you are accusing someone of doing something which they wouldn't do. That’s pretty offensive. It's like accusing someone of murder, or stealing. In this case, it's worse.
No offense, but Even if they were here, you would still come up with unheard of arguments. You have the quran among you, and you still dispute with it.

It could easily have been changed. The main difference is that the regulations were not in place. There was a greater amount of illiteracy and very few people at the time new what the bible said. Muslims however made it apoint ot have everyone know and memorize.
For arguments sake, if your claim is true, in that the reason why the quran has remained uncorrupted because muslims have memeorized, etc, forgetfulness is something easily achieved, especially 1400 years down the track, and therefore easily corrupted. If by muslims memorizing it, and therefore that’s how it hasn't been changed, than someone or a lot of someone's aught to have forgotten it, or forgotten parts of it. But they didn't, because of what allah has revealed: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)." (transltion 15:9)

we are not made from clay. and i think trumble already addressed the rest of this. This idea was known at the time and is incorrect. We are also made from a sperm "not a drop" and an egg. I dont think ill go on but this has been disproven as anything special.
Yes we are made from clay. How do you think we disintegrate when buried? If you are to ever learn chemistry, one of the first things that they teach you is that like dissolves like. The reason why sugar dissolves in water is because it has the same properties as water. Whereas the reason why oil is unable to dissolve in water, is because it has differing properties. Now the reason why humans are able to be disintegrated by soil is because they have the same properties.
I also refer to Qatada rely here again, especially this one: "About the 'drop' - did you know that the sperm is within semen? Did you know that sperm when emitted comes out in a liquid form? This is then a drop, which has sperm within it."

See that shows the difference. I need evidence you dont. You are essentially saying is dont think. I need more evidence than a book that says it is evidence for god cause it says so. Not to mention i have never seen anything special inthe book that you claim is there.
No, im not at all saying don't think. By all means, do, ask around. What im saying is that there is such thing as thinking and asking too much. There are limits to everything. And that’s what im against. Over doing things. Trust me; speaking generally, you are never going to get what you want. You are going to keep on coming up with things/opinions, until you are exhausted out of answers, and you will still not be satisfied, and therefore give up all together.
You said it yourself: "i have never seen anything special in the book that you claim is there." Yes, that’s you. It doesn’t mean that it doesn't exist though. Many other people see it.

Back to the original point of the thread.
You think the lack of corruption is evidence for gods hand right.
What did god do to prevent its corruption? everything i have seen is just man preventing it. Nothing more. And even if the words have not changed the meaning "the important part" is different for everyone. You have sects that see if differently than you do etc....Surely god could at the very least make sure the meaning does not change and is understood by all.

That’s the thing, it about what you see. How could man live without the aid of God? Human beings get things wrong. It's normal.
The meaning doesn't change, people misinterpret things. Maybe the reason why people don’t understand it is because they don’t have the right mentality for it, yet. And that is something God alone knows, that they aren't yet ready to receive it. In not saying that that is definitely the case, im just trying give you an open mind. You can't teach a baby to start reading at 1 month. Its brain hasn't developed properly yet, to receive that type of thing. Whats the point, it won't even understand. Understanding the quran needs time. You can't do it in all one go.
I again refer to Qatadas quote here.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Question for you ranma,,do you now accept that the Quran s Unchaged?

[ranma1/2]

Salaam,

Question for you ranma,,do you now accept that the Quran s Unchaged?

I believe it is difficult to determine wether it is unchanged or not from its original form. I do believe that there is one version that is identical to a form of the quran up to a certain point in the past once it was written.

As for the meaning being changed....
I think that has been pretty much impossible to prevent.

The fact that even native speakers of arabic have to have it "translated " into modern arabic speaks against the meaning remaining the same.
As mentioned earlier "perhaps in this thread" many are taught to memorize the quran even as children even if they may not know what it means.

[- Qatada -]

So the above is all assumption without any proofs? It's ironic since you yourself continuously ask for 'proof' or links, yet you expect us to fall upon and agree with that, yet you've got no proof for that whatsoever.

If you're really in doubt, then you need to refer to the link i gave you earlier;


http://tafsir.com




Regards.

[ranma1/2]

So the above is all assumption without any proofs? It's ironic since you yourself continuously ask for 'proof' or links, yet you expect us to fall upon and agree with that, yet you've got no proof for that whatsoever.

Regards.

so? you asked my opinon i gave it to you. Also i see no "proof" on your part either. You have given no evidence that any god has acted in keeping the quran uncorrupted. I admit that humans have tried their best to keep it in its original form. I have also pointed out that the meaning has not been left uncorrupted.

[جوري]

proof has been provided under this thread
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...-kafiroon.html
An opinion is only worth so much, when it is composed in its totality of hot air bubbles..
peace!

[Ummu Sufyaan]

so? you asked my opinon i gave it to you. Also i see no "proof" on your part either. You have given no evidence that any god has acted in keeping the quran uncorrupted. I admit that humans have tried their best to keep it in its original form. I have also pointed out that the meaning has not been left uncorrupted.

yes he/we have, you choose not to accept it. big difference.

[MustafaMc]

so? you asked my opinon i gave it to you. Also i see no "proof" on your part either. You have given no evidence that any god has acted in keeping the quran uncorrupted. I admit that humans have tried their best to keep it in its original form. I have also pointed out that the meaning has not been left uncorrupted.

There has been no evidence demonstrated that even one letter of the Quran is not the same as the original Quran that was collated immediately after the death of Muhammad (saaws). We Muslims accepts on faith that this is the enduring miracle of the Quran for which we don't need proof. Neither have you have demonstrated that the meaning of the Quran has been corrupted. Over 1400 years time some words will not be in common usage anymore, and will need to be explained even to Arabic speakers. A tafsir or commentary is most beneficial to explain the meaning within the context of revelation.

[Zulkiflim]

I believe it is difficult to determine wether it is unchanged or not from its original form. I do believe that there is one version that is identical to a form of the quran up to a certain point in the past once it was written.

As for the meaning being changed....
I think that has been pretty much impossible to prevent.

The fact that even native speakers of arabic have to have it "translated " into modern arabic speaks against the meaning remaining the same.
As mentioned earlier "perhaps in this thread" many are taught to memorize the quran even as children even if they may not know what it means.

Salaam,

Interesting choice of words..

so in short you still have doubts but have no proof.


And for meaning to be chaged,
Perhaps you can tell me or us which meaning in the quran is changed?

When the Quran say GOD is ONE,,it remain as ONE.as an exaple..

As for language,hmm to say that i am a malay but even in the Malay race there are hundred of different laguages.
Same for chinese and so on.

So does it mena if i as a Malay am not able to speak another dialect that proves that MY dialect has warped?

As for memorizing the quran,it is best to also know what you are saying..
that is why arabic is taught in all masjids,,Alhamdulilah..

So dont jsut memorize but udnerstadning is equally important.
the best part is that we make use of it 5 times a day....thus the words and understadin g come easier and easier..

[ranma1/2]

yes he/we have, you choose not to accept it. big difference.

what? god did it?

[Ummu Sufyaan]

im sorry, i don't understand what you mean. can you please clarify??

[khairullah]

Allah (swt) promised to protect the holy Quran from Corruption.

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)." [Al-Qur’an 15:9]

Even hostile critics of Islam have grudgingly vouched for the purity of the Holy Qur’ân: "THERE IS PROBABLY IN THE WORLD NO OTHER BOOK WHICH HAS REMAINED TWELVE CENTURIES (now fourteen) WITH SO PURE A TEXT." — (Sir William Muir)

[believer]

What does the corruption or lack of corruption of the quran prove and why should we believe it has not been changed?

Hi ranma 1/2!

Your question reminds me of my days in college when my professor in argumentation and debate tasked everyone to make an argument or statement. I made an argument about "Priests should be allowed to get married." (your question gave an air of nostalgia)

Anyway... getting back to your question.

Your question has an implied statement leading to your point which is 'Why we Muslims don't doubt the authenticity of God's word in the Qur'an no matter what publication date or translation it is.

WHY SHOULD WE?....:?

Why should you doubt something that has offered more answers to your questions after the Truth has been revealed to you?

When Thomas doubted that Jesus was alive... he had to see him firsthand. what does that make Thomas? - what does this make you?:?

Jesus has been preaching about Islam in the Bible... this is what prompted me to search for a Qur'an. If you have been really searching for the Truth - you won't have to stir up this forum and make a circus out of the good spirits here.

It seems you are enjoying this too much. There is a word of caution... Allah hates the arrogant and those men of pride.

However, I do believe everyone has been given free-will. Use it for your own benefit... Read the Qur'an and not the side comments of un-islamic articles and discover the answers yourself.

But don't take my word for it. That's up for you to discover on your own.

May Allah lift up the veil clouding your eyes in percieving the truth once it has come upon you....

Peace!