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ApostateAtheist
07-11-2007, 08:25 AM
Hello all,I am Amir this is my first post on these forums and I would like to know...What makes allah so good....Because I am a former musiilim and I never thought allah was very nice......So i have come to the conclusion that even IF he was existant I would reject him and utter the greatest of disrepects from my lips.....So please tell me....what makes him so good? (No i am not trying to start a debate...this is a real question)
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khushnood
07-11-2007, 08:35 AM
Allah Our Creator ,sustainer, He Cares 4 His Creation , Even Those Who Reject Him,isnt That Enough For U To Conclude That He Is Good.by The Way,why Did U Bwcome An Atheist
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ApostateAtheist
07-11-2007, 08:37 AM
because of the complete lack of proof that a god exist....and no.....looking at the world is not enough because there are easily natural ways to explain everything...also because of the fact that allah would send someone to hell for simply saying he doesent exist....its really dumb imho.
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-11-2007, 08:43 AM
hi.
maybe it isn't the lack of proof, for it is quite abudant. why do people always blame the so-called lack of proof, instead of turning around and looking in the mirror and try contemplating that maybe there is somehting wrong with them.
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north_malaysian
07-11-2007, 08:44 AM
YOu're welcome here as an apostate or atheist.... but please BE AWARE of your wordings....
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Makky
07-11-2007, 10:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ApostateAtheist
because of the complete lack of proof that a god exist....and no.....looking at the world is not enough because there are easily natural ways to explain everything...also because of the fact that allah would send someone to hell for simply saying he doesent exist....its really dumb imho.
If you are educated come and show us your proof in the ( Allah and camouflage) thread?

I wish that our brothers and sisters ignore this kind of posts untill someone of those Atheists Answer the Questions in The thread ( Allah and camouflage)
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rozeena
07-11-2007, 10:18 AM
wat makes him sooo good??? all u have 2do is look at urself, his given u good health, a good family, food 2 eat, a house 2 live in. if dats nt good??? i dnt see wt is
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-11-2007, 10:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ApostateAtheist
because of the complete lack of proof that a god exist....and no.....looking at the world is not enough because there are easily natural ways to explain everything...also because of the fact that allah would send someone to hell for simply saying he doesent exist....its really dumb imho.
if you think that there is a lack of proof that god exists, then that question can rebound back onto you: why don't you give us some proof that god doesn't exist??
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ranma1/2
07-11-2007, 12:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by khushnood
Allah Our Creator ,sustainer, He Cares 4 His Creation , Even Those Who Reject Him,isnt That Enough For U To Conclude That He Is Good.by The Way,why Did U Bwcome An Atheist
what evidence do you have of this? seems to me he only cares about those that worship him. Not to mention he seems to be homophobic and not care about equality.
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ranma1/2
07-11-2007, 12:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rozeena
wat makes him sooo good??? all u have 2do is look at urself, his given u good health, a good family, food 2 eat, a house 2 live in. if dats nt good??? i dnt see wt is
he has? well tell that to the starving, the mistreadted, the sick, etc....

Did you know that I actually provide you with your good health and food and house etc.. want proof? why i said so thats proof enough. What you want more? well you just dont believe enough.
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ranma1/2
07-11-2007, 12:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by maryam11
if you think that there is a lack of proof that god exists, then that question can rebound back onto you: why don't you give us some proof that god doesn't exist??
in general its the lack of evidence that god exists.
You are the one making a positive claim and it therefore your responciblity to prove it. Like wise if i were to say the toothfairy exists its not your responciblity to prove it doesnt but mine to prove it does.

Perhaps you can prove im not god?
Or is it my responciblity to prove i am god?
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ranma1/2
07-11-2007, 12:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Makky
If you are educated come and show us your proof in the ( Allah and camouflage) thread?

I wish that our brothers and sisters ignore this kind of posts untill someone of those Atheists Answer the Questions in The thread ( Allah and camouflage)
we have answered your questions, just not to your liking. Heck some times the answers have been we dont know. We defintily arent going to stop thinking and say god did it.
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- Qatada -
07-11-2007, 12:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
what evidence do you have of this? seems to me he only cares about those that worship him. Not to mention he seems to be homophobic and not care about equality.

As you've stated in many threads yourself, you're in doubt about the beginning i.e. how the first cell 'came to life' etc. so in reality - that argument isn't that powerful at all anyways.


2 - If Allaah creates mankind, He sends them laws to differentiate between what is right/wrong.

Therefore, Allaah says (translation of the meaning):

O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allah is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [i.e. one of the Muttaqun (pious.] Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

[Qur'an 49: 13]


Taqwa: piety, "God-consciousness." Taqwa involves constant awareness and remembrance of Allah, and conscious efforts to adhere to His commandments and abstain from whatever He has forbidden.
www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/idealmuslimah/Glossary.html
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- Qatada -
07-11-2007, 12:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
he has? well tell that to the starving, the mistreadted, the sick, etc....

Allaah Almighty tests different people in different ways. You may be disabled physically, but Allaah may give you alot of wisdom. Or you may have lots of wealth, yet not have the looks. Or you may have the looks, but not have the knowledge.

These tests are in different ways, and Allaah Almighty puts us in different situations, but it still is a test. If a person has wealth, Allaah will ask them on how they spent that wealth, whereas someone who never had wealth may be asked how he used his strength, health etc. Whenever Allaah Almighty tests someone, He doesn't burden them with more than they can bear, which is part of the Mercy of Allaah Almighty.


We will be judged by Allaah on everything that we do, the less sins we fall into will be better for our account. Some people may have commited many sins which may have lead them to the hellfire in the hereafter, so Allaah chose to make them disabled. Some may have abused their wealth if they had too much, so Allaah Almighty made them poor. Allaah Almighty is the Most Wise, the All-Knowing.




Did you know that I actually provide you with your good health and food and house etc.. want proof?

Really? Do you send down rain from the skies? Do you turn the day into night?

Do you sleep? If you sleep - you're weak, do you go to the toilet? Is that soemthing 'Godly' - no it's not. Were you born? Yes. Then you're not God.
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ranma1/2
07-11-2007, 02:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
As you've stated in many threads yourself, you're in doubt about the beginning i.e. how the first cell 'came to life' etc. so in reality - that argument isn't that powerful at all anyways.


2 - If Allaah creates mankind, He sends them laws to differentiate between what is right/wrong.

so what? we dont know. thats pretty much essential for science and such.
Science constanlty improves itself. Where as many religions just say God did it.
so what is lightning?
Scientists many many years ago.
dont know.
religion.
god showing his anger.

later.
scientists.
its electricty caused by .....
religion.
um... what he said...

so why do we have a variety of species.
science many many years ago.
dont know.
religion.
god did it...

later.
scientists.
evo...
religion.
god did it...
etc...

im not going to even bother with the flaws in your god gives us morality statement.
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ranma1/2
07-11-2007, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Allaah Almighty tests different people in different ways.

Really? Do you send down rain from the skies? Do you turn the day into night?

Do you sleep? If you sleep - you're weak, do you go to the toilet? Is that soemthing 'Godly' - no it's not. Were you born? Yes. Then you're not God.
ignoring the first statement due to its complete lack of evidence.

Does god send rain down? Nope. We have that explained through the water cycle.

Does god turn day into night?
Nope, the rotation of the earth does that.
"hmmm you would think something as scientificly accurate as the quran wouldhave gotten that right."


do i sleep ? yep, do i go to the banjo, yep. And yes i was born? whats your point? youve assigned some arbitrary quality to your god with out any evidence. Heck to me god is a 6 foot redhead with a nice head on her shoulders and a sense of humor. And i know those exists. But wait you know what your god is becuase your book tells you and the book was written by god so thats what god is. And god wouldnt lie, unless of course he does.

And as you and others often say, everything has to have maker right? so what made god? oh everything except him.. gotcha... he always existed.....
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zaria
07-11-2007, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Perhaps you can prove im not god?
Or is it my responciblity to prove i am god?
One proof is you being able to write this email. Allah Ta'ala speech his nothing like is creations. Allah Ta'ala existence is NOTHING like is creations No you don't have to prove that because we as believers already know that Allah Ta'ala has no beginning or and end when his creations (you and I) mankind has been giving birth (beginning) and death (end) from Allah Ta'ala.
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Makky
07-11-2007, 03:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
what evidence do you have of this? seems to me he only cares about those that worship him. Not to mention he seems to be homophobic and not care about equality.
is this the way and the level of knowledge you want to talk with?
Ranma1/2 wake up..You will live life once..don't waste it..Think about you future life!
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جوري
07-11-2007, 09:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Makky
Think about you future life!
Some people are best left in a dreamless slumber akhi!
:w:
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ranma1/2
07-11-2007, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zaria
One proof is you being able to write this email. Allah Ta'ala speech his nothing like is creations. Allah Ta'ala existence is NOTHING like is creations No you don't have to prove that because we as believers already know that Allah Ta'ala has no beginning or and end when his creations (you and I) mankind has been giving birth (beginning) and death (end) from Allah Ta'ala.
My being able to write this email is evidence that the GFSM made my laptop.
Now do you have any evidence?
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Makky
07-11-2007, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
My being able to write this email is evidence that the GFSM made my laptop.
Now do you have any evidence?

your disability to prove scientifically the 1st step of the theory of evolution is an evidence of the creation..and the creation is the evidence for a creator
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-12-2007, 05:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
in general its the lack of evidence that god exists.
You are the one making a positive claim and it therefore your responciblity to prove it. Like wise if i were to say the toothfairy exists its not your responciblity to prove it doesnt but mine to prove it does.

Perhaps you can prove im not god?
Or is it my responciblity to prove i am god?
whats that got to do with anything? you've just tried to turn it around to make me(as a believer in God) look like the villian. i get the point where you state that im making a positive claim, so it up to me to prove it, but your the one who claims that god doesn't exsist and are therefore equally responsible to prove your claim that He dosn't.
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Malaikah
07-12-2007, 11:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Does god send rain down? Nope. We have that explained through the water cycle.
You know this sheer ignorance of religion, don't you? What, do you think we believe that God has a bucket from which He pours down rain? (God forbid that such a thought would ever cross our mind).

It is by His Will that it rains, He is the one who invented rain in the first place, and if He decides to hold back your rain, I would love to see try to bring the rain back against His Will.
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zaria
07-12-2007, 12:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
My being able to write this email is evidence that the GFSM made my laptop.
Now do you have any evidence?
Sura Az Zumar 39:1-7
Az-Zumar
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

The revelation of the Scripture is from Allah, the Mighty, the Wise. (1) Lo! We have revealed the Scripture unto thee (Muhammad) with truth; so worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only). (2) Surely pure religion is for Allah only. And those who choose protecting friends beside Him (say): We worship them only that they may bring us near unto Allah. Lo! Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Lo! Allah guideth not him who is a liar, an ingrate. (3) If Allah had willed to choose a son, He could have chosen what He would of that which He hath created. Be He glorified! He is Allah, the One, the Absolute. (4) He hath created the heavens and the earth with truth. He maketh night to succeed day, and He maketh day to succeed night, and He constraineth the sun and the moon to give service, each running on for an appointed term. Is not He the Mighty, the Forgiver? (5) He created you from one being, then from that (being) He made its mate; and He hath provided for you of cattle eight kinds. He created you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, in a threefold gloom. Such is Allah, your Lord. His is the Sovereignty. There is no God save Him. How then are ye turned away? (6) If ye are thankless, yet Allah is Independent of you, though He is not pleased with thanklessness for His bondmen; and if ye are thankful He is pleased therewith for you. No laden soul will bear another's load. Then unto your Lord is your return; and He will tell you what ye used to do. Lo! He knoweth what is in the breasts (of men). (7)

I pray that you understand these ayats from the absolute Allah Ta'ala. While you are on your laptop look up Al Qadar to get a an understanding of Nothing is done unless Allah wills it.
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ranma1/2
07-12-2007, 01:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Makky
is this the way and the level of knowledge you want to talk with?
Ranma1/2 wake up..You will live life once..don't waste it..Think about you future life!
oooh nooesss.... not the your going to hell threat... oh noes.... now you got me converted. but wait. convert to GFSM or you will boil in hot water forever.
You only live once... Dont ruin it by following other gods other than the GFSM.
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ranma1/2
07-12-2007, 01:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Makky
your disability to prove scientifically the 1st step of the theory of evolution is an evidence of the creation..and the creation is the evidence for a creator
nope its proof that the GFSM sneezed the world into existence.

"hint , im not taking you pratts seriously."
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ranma1/2
07-12-2007, 01:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
You know this sheer ignorance of religion, don't you? What, do you think we believe that God has a bucket from which He pours down rain? (God forbid that such a thought would ever cross our mind).

It is by His Will that it rains, He is the one who invented rain in the first place, and if He decides to hold back your rain, I would love to see try to bring the rain back against His Will.
come on we all know "as well as you do in your heart" that the GFSM controlls all water and rain. after all if there was no water you could not make pasta in tribute to the GFSM.

Ramen.
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-12-2007, 02:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ApostateAtheist
So i have come to the conclusion that even IF he was existant I would reject him and utter the greatest of disrepects from my lips
then stop breathing his air,
get out of his kingdome,
stop eating his food,
stop enjoying his creation,



may Allah guide you....
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-12-2007, 02:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
ignoring the first statement due to its complete lack of evidence.

Does god send rain down? Nope. We have that explained through the water cycle.

Does god turn day into night?
Nope, the rotation of the earth does that.
"hmmm you would think something as scientificly accurate as the quran wouldhave gotten that right."
everthing requires maintanance. When you build a machine do you think you can just leave it? at best it will rust, at worst it will explode.

theres maintanance and balance for everything, and its in perfect harmony, to suggest its aall been maintained for millions of years by utter chance is ridiculous. just utterly ridiculous
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Pk_#2
07-12-2007, 02:19 PM
Ello,

Welcome to the forum,

Surah Fussilat: "Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?" [Al-Quran 41:53]

It is He Who has created for you (the faculties of) hearing, sight, feeling and understanding: little thanks it is ye give!..

It is He Who gives Life and Death; and when He decides upon an affair, He says to it, "Be", and it is.

It is He Who has sent His Apostle with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

It is He Who has created you; and of you are some that are Unbelievers, and some that are Believers: and God sees well all that ye do.

It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

There is no god but He.
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ranma1/2
07-12-2007, 10:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
everthing requires maintanance. When you build a machine do you think you can just leave it? at best it will rust, at worst it will explode.

theres maintanance and balance for everything, and its in perfect harmony, to suggest its aall been maintained for millions of years by utter chance is ridiculous. just utterly ridiculous
nope, pretty much only man made things require maintance.
Now if you can "prove" or provide evidence that the earth was made rather than going with the "god did it" approach non muslims might take you seriously.
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Muezzin
07-12-2007, 11:01 PM
What's the scientific definition for consciousness? I refuse to believe in such a silly concept until a scientific definition is presented. If it can't be proved scientifically, it does not exist.

Like, I don't love my family, because love cannot be measured. You cannot prove my love, therefore I do not love. You cannot prove that I urinated when I went to the toilet, therefore I do not urinate. If there was any evidence, it's in the sewer system by now. It's really quite logical. I cannot prove you exist. Therefore you are just a figment of my imagination, and when I close my eyes, you will disappear. It's so obvious when you think about it.
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-12-2007, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
What's the scientific definition for consciousness? I refuse to believe in such a silly concept until a scientific definition is presented. If it can't be proved scientifically, it does not exist.

Like, I don't love my family, because love cannot be measured. You cannot prove my love, therefore I do not love. You cannot prove that I urinated when I went to the toilet, therefore I do not urinate. If there was any evidence, it's in the sewer system by now. It's really quite logical. I cannot prove you exist. Therefore you are just a figment of my imagination, and when I close my eyes, you will disappear. It's so obvious when you think about it.
bro thats the harun yahya approach, it dont work lol,

theres so many flaws in that logic, just to point out one :


I cannot prove you exist. Therefore you are just a figment of my imagination, and when I close my eyes, you will disappear.
you can still touch em :p (not that u wud want to :X)


but im saying that the best explenation for disbelievers is the maintanance and even the Quran uses these explenations when asking to see how the birds remain in the sky etc.



Ranma1/2, i do not know how it is you reject that everything is controlled. Ranma why dont you try go against nature, why is it no one can go against nature? You know when the titanic was built they challenged God saying "God cant sink it", he sunk it first voyage, you know when the first rocket was built they said nothing can destroy it, "God destroyed it on its first missioN" you kno the name of that rocket? "the challenger" challenge wat?

seriously ranma think about it, why is it NOTHING AND NO ONE can disturb or go against nature?

can you turn back a tsunami or prevent the rain from falling? can you snatch away the essence which once a bird is launched keeps it lifted in the sky.



you probably think im just talking non-sense, how could you understand when you turn your glass upside down not allowing anything beneficial to be poured in....
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ranma1/2
07-13-2007, 01:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Makky
your disability to prove scientifically the 1st step of the theory of evolution is an evidence of the creation..and the creation is the evidence for a creator
so it sounds as if you think you know what the 1st step is?
So what is it?
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ranma1/2
07-13-2007, 01:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
...I cannot prove you exist. Therefore you are just a figment of my imagination, and when I close my eyes, you will disappear. It's so obvious when you think about it.
thats pretty much why you cant "prove" anything.

You could easily be the dream of the third snail from the right.

But alas science does not deal with proof.
Instead it deals with evidence.
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ranma1/2
07-13-2007, 01:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
That's absurd. :giggling:

IF you accept Allah to be a real being, you'd also believe in heaven and hell as being a reward/punishment to the believers/unbelievers respectively.

The question I'd like to ask you is, having acknowledged that there is a superior being, one that will punish you with hell-fire for going against his commandments, don't you think it'd be rather dumb to then go against this being? :rollseyes

Do you think its stupid to resist a burgler/theif/murder/mugger/rapists?
Does might make right? I myself could not ever worship or trusts such a bully and immoral being as the typical mono-theistic god.

mugger: "Officer I told them to give me their money or their life , well they chose their lfie.
I gave them a choice, honestly i did."

Office: "yep your right. free to go."
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ranma1/2
07-13-2007, 01:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
That's absurd. :giggling:

IF you accept Allah to be a real being, you'd also believe in heaven and hell as being a reward/punishment to the believers/unbelievers respectively.

The question I'd like to ask you is, having acknowledged that there is a superior being, one that will punish you with hell-fire for going against his commandments, don't you think it'd be rather dumb to then go against this being? :rollseyes
why would he have to accept that? perhaps allah lied? perhaps its been misqouted, its clear that the god does not want to take part in this life.
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Muezzin
07-13-2007, 08:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
thats pretty much why you cant "prove" anything.

You could easily be the dream of the third snail from the right.

But alas science does not deal with proof.
Instead it deals with evidence.
Science deals with evidence, and deals in logic. Faith by its very nature must trancend logic.
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-13-2007, 09:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
What I'm confused about is, if he acknowledges that a being called Allah exists, as described in the Islamic teachings, then why would he be silly enough to utter disrespectful things against him?.
ask iblis, his the only other one i know stupid enough to do it !
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Latifa1985
07-13-2007, 09:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
ignoring the first statement due to its complete lack of evidence.

Does god send rain down? Nope. We have that explained through the water cycle.

Does god turn day into night?
Nope, the rotation of the earth does that.
"hmmm you would think something as scientificly accurate as the quran wouldhave gotten that right."


do i sleep ? yep, do i go to the banjo, yep. And yes i was born? whats your point? youve assigned some arbitrary quality to your god with out any evidence. Heck to me god is a 6 foot redhead with a nice head on her shoulders and a sense of humor. And i know those exists. But wait you know what your god is becuase your book tells you and the book was written by god so thats what god is. And god wouldnt lie, unless of course he does.

And as you and others often say, everything has to have maker right? so what made god? oh everything except him.. gotcha... he always existed.....
Hi,

After reading your interesting questions on my mind came a proverb that "atheist wishes they are wrong after they die".. I wonder what agnostic will feel..:rolleyes:
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ranma1/2
07-13-2007, 12:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Latifa1985
Hi,

After reading your interesting questions on my mind came a proverb that "atheist wishes they are wrong after they die".. I wonder what agnostic will feel..:rolleyes:
nah, atheists are unlucky in that we cant say we told you so when you die.
he he he..

Of course lets say there is a god.
I personally believe that if their is a god and it is a good selfless being , it will respect someone more for not believing in him and leading a good life rather than someone that does a leads a good life so they arent punished.

Of course in the end all muslims wished they believed in zeus when they die.
;)
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Makky
07-14-2007, 03:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
nah, atheists are unlucky in that we cant say we told you so when you die.
he he he..

Of course lets say there is a god.
I personally believe that if their is a god and it is a good selfless being , it will respect someone more for not believing in him and leading a good life rather than someone that does a leads a good life so they arent punished.
Of course in the end all muslims wished they believed in zeus when they die.
;)
You ran away from the camouflage thread to play here ? huh?

We are not created to avoid punishment.. but to worship Allah to love him and this is the Salvation from any punishment.

Poor ranma1/2..when you die?! you will seeeee!! imagine it?!! assume it?! ask yourself! what if? what will happen?!

see you there
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ranma1/2
07-14-2007, 05:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Makky
You ran away from the camouflage thread to play here ? huh?

We are not created to avoid punishment.. but to worship Allah to love him and this is the Salvation from any punishment.

Poor ranma1/2..when you die?! you will seeeee!! imagine it?!! assume it?! ask yourself! what if? what will happen?!

see you there
nope, im ignoring your worthless thread and thats all ill say about it here.

We are not created period. And if we were created to worship something all that shows in that being is a very petty selfish creature. And I see such a being as unworthy of worship. Any being that demands worship is unworthy of it.
OH no more threats. Well dont worry I know that you know deep in your heart that you will see Zeus when you die. Dont worry you will be treated as you deserve.
Now ask yourself, what is your wrong, What if mohammad was actually given visions by Satan and the christian god is the real one. Looks like hellfire for you. Tobad.
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Trumble
07-14-2007, 06:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
And if we were created to worship something all that shows in that being is a very petty selfish creature. And I see such a being as unworthy of worship. Any being that demands worship is unworthy of it.
I totally agree, and have yet to see any plausible explanation for why such a perfect being would display such an imperfect trait. Except the obvious one, of course, that it is a human trait not a divine one. Man created God, not the other way around.
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Pynthanomai
07-14-2007, 09:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2

[...]
We are not created period. And if we were created to worship something all that shows in that being is a very petty selfish creature. And I see such a being as unworthy of worship. Any being that demands worship is unworthy of it.
[...]

Another understanding of why a deity requires worship arises from the consideration of the nature of a deity. If, for the sake of argument, we have assumed the existence of a deity, we contradict ourselves if we propose that such an entity is "selfish" to require worship - because it is the nature of a deity, viz-a-viz its relationship with human beings, to be the object of worship. To assume otherwise is to speak of something other than a deity or god.
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Trumble
07-14-2007, 09:45 AM
"we contradict ourselves if we propose that such an entity is "selfish" to require worship"
Only if you accept your huge assumption that a deity or god must be the object of worship viz-a-viz its relationship with human beings and I can see no reason whatsoever to do so. You could define the words in those terms, but such can only be a purely human construction anyway.. you don't determine the properties of God by how you define Him - unless, of course, that deity or god was a human creation.
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Pynthanomai
07-14-2007, 09:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Only if you accept your huge assumption that a deity or god must be the object of worship viz-a-viz its relationship with human beings and I can see no reason whatsoever to do so. You could define the words in those terms, but such can only be a purely human construction anyway.. you don't determine the properties of God by how you define Him - unless, of course, that deity or god was a human creation.

What I referred to was the definition by which a deity or god is understood per se. The definition of a deity is a being or entity who or which (among other things) is due worship in some form or way from human beings. To define it otherwise is to define something else entirely. It would be like referring to water and claiming that it was dry. It may be possible, and in a hypothetical situation we might, for the sake of argument, take it as true and valid; but the word "water" does not refer to an object that has the property of dryness.
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Trumble
07-14-2007, 11:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pynthanomai
What I referred to was the definition by which a deity or god is understood per se. The definition of a deity is a being or entity who or which (among other things) is due worship in some form or way from human beings. To define it otherwise is to define something else entirely. It would be like referring to water and claiming that it was dry. It may be possible, and in a hypothetical situation we might, for the sake of argument, take it as true and valid; but the word "water" does not refer to an object that has the property of dryness.
I see nothing in any definition I could drag up as "due worship", only that they are (usually) worshipped, which is a simple statement of fact.

I still see absolutely no reason why that particular property should be assigned to God except by those who already believe worship is required by God. The 'nature' of something that (if it exists) must in many ways be beyond human conception cannot not equate to its 'definition' unless, as I said, that nature is somehow determined by that definition. Is simple to postulate a God that has no requirement to be worshipped (whether people actually do or not); indeed the whole thrust of the argument you are contesting is that given the other properties attributed to God (benevolence, omnipotence, omniscience, etc) the idea of a God that requires worship - let alone that creates something just to do it - is nonsensical except in purely anthropomorphic terms.
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- Qatada -
07-14-2007, 03:03 PM
I think we've clarified in previous discussions that worship consists of anything which is loved by Allaah.


We as Muslims believe that this life is temporary, we are created by Allaah, and yes - we are created to worship Him. But wait, worship doesn't just mean to continuously pray, fast, etc. Worship in the Islamic context is anything which is loved by Allaah. So for example, if a guy gives food to his wife, he is fulfilling a duty which is loved by Allaah. Since you intended to draw closer to Allaah by feeding your wife, then that is an act of worship in of itself. Therefore, you would gain Allaah's pleasure, therefore be rewarded by Him inshaa Allaah (God willing.)

Similarly, all aspects of our life can be a means of drawing closer to our Creator, and Sustainer.


Along with these acts of worship, we are also obligated to thank Allaah for the good which He has bestowed upon us. We are obligated to worship Allaah (which includes the 5 daily prayers) - so that we remain firm upon the correct path. During each prayer, we recite to Allaah - "Guide us to the Straight Path.." - if one stops praying to Allaah, they usually break their contact with Him due to the excessive distractions of this life. Therefore an obligation makes the believer firm upon keeping their duty to Allaah so they remain upon the correct straight path which leads to Him (The Siraat Al Mustaqeem.)

Therefore, if one asks why Allaah asks us to worship Him - the answer is so we remain aware of God, so we continue doing good to please Him and earn His pleasure, so we abstain from the evil which He has forbidden us from - which is harm in of itself, and that is why it is forbidden. Those who believe in Allaah, His promise, and His reward - then they will be rewarded for their good.



Therefore the above clarifies that Allaah is not in need of our worship, rather we are in need of worshipping Allaah to be good people and at ease in this life and the life to come.



And Allaah knows best.





Regards.
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Pynthanomai
07-14-2007, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I see nothing in any definition I could drag up as "due worship", only that they are (usually) worshipped, which is a simple statement of fact.

I still see absolutely no reason why that particular property should be assigned to God except by those who already believe worship is required by God. The 'nature' of something that (if it exists) must in many ways be beyond human conception cannot not equate to its 'definition' unless, as I said, that nature is somehow determined by that definition. Is simple to postulate a God that has no requirement to be worshipped (whether people actually do or not); indeed the whole thrust of the argument you are contesting is that given the other properties attributed to God (benevolence, omnipotence, omniscience, etc) the idea of a God that requires worship - let alone that creates something just to do it - is nonsensical except in purely anthropomorphic terms.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree about the definition of a deity or god, and how worship is related to it. I'm afraid I don't follow your sentence, "The 'nature' of something that (if it exists) must in many ways be beyond human conception cannot not equate to its 'definition' unless, as I said, that nature is somehow determined by that definition." I also think we're on different wavelengths when it comes to the concept of God, as you've defined it: "benevolence, omnipotence, omniscience, etc": all these, so far from making it "nonsensical except in purely anthropomorphic terms" plainly render it (sc. worship due to God) as the only logical and necessary outcome, once the nature of those attributes (which you've assigned to God) are understood. Specifically, to assign such traits to a being or entity and assume that that being may thenceforth have no need to relate to human beings on a level other than that of a god to its worshippers is indeed to posit an entirely new conception of "God". You are welcome to do so, of course; but what you say is not implicit in the normal, everyday use of the word "God".
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boriqee
07-15-2007, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ApostateAtheist
Hello all,I am Amir this is my first post on these forums and I would like to know...What makes allah so good....Because I am a former musiilim and I never thought allah was very nice......So i have come to the conclusion that even IF he was existant I would reject him and utter the greatest of disrepects from my lips.....So please tell me....what makes him so good? (No i am not trying to start a debate...this is a real question)
the question would really be what information have you received that allowed you to make that conclusion about your maker
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-16-2007, 03:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
nope, im ignoring your worthless thread and thats all ill say about it here.

We are not created period. And if we were created to worship something all that shows in that being is a very petty selfish creature. And I see such a being as unworthy of worship. Any being that demands worship is unworthy of it.
OH no more threats. Well dont worry I know that you know deep in your heart that you will see Zeus when you die. Dont worry you will be treated as you deserve.
Now ask yourself, what is your wrong, What if mohammad was actually given visions by Satan and the christian god is the real one. Looks like hellfire for you. Tobad.
how is that selfish?? if someone were to do you a favor, its only natural to return it.
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ranma1/2
07-16-2007, 04:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by maryam11
how is that selfish?? if someone were to do you a favor, its only natural to return it.
favor?

if someone holds a gun to my head and demands i give them my money or they will shoot me. Are they doing me a favor by not shooting me?
Not to mention this person doesnt even have the decency to actually show up.
Perhaps you have heard of frank?

He will give you a million dollars. Just follow his rules.
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Muezzin
07-19-2007, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
favor?

if someone holds a gun to my head and demands i give them my money or they will shoot me. Are they doing me a favor by not shooting me?
Not to mention this person doesnt even have the decency to actually show up.
Perhaps you have heard of frank?

He will give you a million dollars. Just follow his rules.
In that case, don't follow the law of the land. You really want to kill that guy's dog for biting your backside, but the law of the land states if you do you will be executed?

Obviously, according to that logic, the law of the land must be oppressive. :playing:

How about just living with the consequences of your actions? Common sense and everything? I swear, the way some people tell it, you'd be forgiven for thinking that religion blinds people from their own common sense. A lot of the punishments in religion relate to being a butthead to your fellow men. A lot of the rewards relate to being nice to your fellow men. It's two sides of a scale, and nothing more.
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ranma1/2
07-19-2007, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
In that case, don't follow the law of the land. You really want to kill that guy's dog for biting your backside, but the law of the land states if you do you will be executed?

Obviously, according to that logic, the law of the land must be oppressive. :playing:

How about just living with the consequences of your actions? Common sense and everything? I swear, the way some people tell it, you'd be forgiven for thinking that religion blinds people from their own common sense. A lot of the punishments in religion relate to being a butthead to your fellow men. A lot of the rewards relate to being nice to your fellow men. It's two sides of a scale, and nothing more.
What does that have to do with god?
And what law says i will be executed for killing a dog that attacks me? "self protection right?"
For the most part i do good not because of the laws of the land but due to empathy and the golden rule. I do not have an inherent desire to kill or steal.
If the laws of the land said worship the president or go to jail then the law is unjust. "specially if you have never seen this president and are unsure of its existence."
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Muezzin
07-20-2007, 09:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
What does that have to do with god?
And what law says i will be executed for killing a dog that attacks me? "self protection right?"
It was just an example (and a pretty bad one at that). What I was trying to say is the mere fact that a system of law, religion or any other artificial system governing human behaviour prohibits something is not enough to make the prohibition oppressive.

For the most part i do good not because of the laws of the land but due to empathy and the golden rule. I do not have an inherent desire to kill or steal.
And for the most part, religious people do good not to avoid sinning or punishment, but simply to do good, without putting too much thought into what they have to gain. I think everyone acts like this, religious or non-religious. Religion is another system enforcing certain moral codes.

If the laws of the land said worship the president or go to jail then the law is unjust. "specially if you have never seen this president and are unsure of its existence."
Now I see where you're coming from.
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- Qatada -
07-20-2007, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma
If the laws of the land said worship the president or go to jail then the law is unjust. "specially if you have never seen this president and are unsure of its existence."

This is the problem, you worship the president by obeying his orders - even if you don't agree with them. If your president says to you that you have to pay a certain amount in tax, and you don't want to - you have to. Otherwise, you're going to jail. There are much more examples which i can give, but that's sufficient to make my point.



So you see, even if you reject the concept of hellfire or paradise, you still believe in the concept of being locked up, and being 'free' in this life. Even if you don't count the votes, you know that you have to agree with the laws. These laws are controlled by the people higher in the social hierarchy. You're just a slave to them, yet you don't see them - you only see their signs, i.e. what they portray on the media etc. What is 'kool' on the media, you follow it, or atleast society does. They too are slaves of it. So if you're not slaves to God, you still are slaves to the higher social hierarchy, and you are slaves to those who follow it's ways.





Regards.
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ranma1/2
07-22-2007, 12:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
This is the problem, you worship the president by obeying his orders - even if you don't agree with them. If your president says to you that you have to pay a certain amount in tax, and you don't want to - you have to. Otherwise, you're going to jail. There are much more examples which i can give, but that's sufficient to make my point.
You need to understand what worship means. No sane person i know worships the president. Also i dont obey any of his orders since he does not order me. He doesnt even make the laws for the most part. Also if he were to make laaws that i find unjust or wrong we can get rid of them. In general you are looking at the people creating the laws not one person such as the president. Not to mention the president is not considered to be a god who is supposedly perfect...

format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
So you see, even if you reject the concept of hellfire or paradise, you still believe in the concept of being locked up, and being 'free' in this life.
I do reject those ideas. And I believe in fair and just laws and the right to rebel against unjust laws and goverment.


format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Even if you don't count the votes, you know that you have to agree with the laws.
No we dont and we can go against those laws any many ways. We can get them changed legaly or protests peacefully "or non peacefully" as the case may be. Its also important to note that we actually have physical goverment representative that we can actually interact with.

format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
These laws are controlled by the people higher in the social hierarchy. You're just a slave to them, yet you don't see them - you only see their signs, i.e. what they portray on the media etc. What is 'kool' on the media, you follow it, or atleast society does. They too are slaves of it. So if you're not slaves to God, you still are slaves to the higher social hierarchy, and you are slaves to those who follow it's ways.
Slaves? Trying to be immotional arent you? As stated before we can be that heirachy. We can fire that heirachy. Heck we can even kill that heirarchy.
"Unfortunatly many are uncaring about reality and just go with the flow."
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Trumble
07-22-2007, 02:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
You're just a slave to them, yet you don't see them - you only see their signs, i.e. what they portray on the media etc. What is 'kool' on the media, you follow it, or atleast society does. They too are slaves of it. So if you're not slaves to God, you still are slaves to the higher social hierarchy, and you are slaves to those who follow it's ways.
Hehe.. I'm tempted to say "until the inevitable revolution of the proletariat"; that's pure Marx!

His interpretation is different only that to him both God and 'society' in the form of the state are created by human actions. Part of ourselves gets seperated and vested in our own external constructions, which in turn come to both oppress us and alienate us from our true selves and human potential.
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Abdul Fattah
07-22-2007, 02:15 PM
From the theistic paradigm, even disbelievers of Allah subhana wa ta'ala are slaves of him, they are just rebellious slaves. Here it is in terms of ownerships, Allah subhana wa ta'ala created us, and to him will we return no matter what we do. There is no escaping it.

As for being slaves of all other things in this world, that is not absolute slavery. Because we are only slave to anything else as far as we allow it to control our life. That is why that if you submit to Allah subhana wa ta'ala (the inescapable slavery) you have the highest degree of freedom, because you escape all other forms of escapable slaveries. If Allah wills it, we even break free of the slavery of our desires and urges (which I think is one of the goals in Buddhism to, right?).
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Abu Ibraheem
08-27-2007, 11:44 AM
I believe in God, rationality, logic and science. This may seem contrdictive to many as religion is normally potrayed or understood to go against logic and understanding, and that the adherents of such faith believe in a blind leap of faith, blindly following the dictates of dogmatism. However, i am confident i can discuss my faith using rationality, logic and science and use these very tools to show evidence and reasons why i beleive in God and in Islam.

You stated you are an atheist/apostate. I find atheists to differ in their views, most believe in Darwinism and some are not quite sure in what they beleive, as long as it is not in God.

The reason why we beleive something to be true is all important to the discussion at hand. Therefore we must always be clear in our reasoning as to why we beleieve or do not beleive something. Since atheism is a modern ideology, it therefore bears the burden of proof.

One has to explain why they do not believe in God. What has made them come to that conclusion. Because if we put atheism under the spotlight of logic, we will find that atheism too must have a string of premises to make the conclusion that God does not exist.

Now, i am not trying to be a funny geezer or a thorn in the bum. I am simply stating atheism also falls under the scrutiny of science, logic and rationality.

Since i do not know whether you agree with Darwins conclusions set forth in his "Origin of Species" i will try my hardest not to make false assumptions as to what you believe.

However, it is obvious if one does not beleive in God, then one does not believe in the first man and first woman in modern form. I.e. "We are as we were", and if one does not believe in the creation of man and woman, then there is no other option but to believe that we descendend from animals.

My question here is do you believe in human rights?

Secondly, is your belief atheism a valid or invalid belief?
If i was to say to you the pyramids were actually metorites that landed upon each other to form a Pyramid, would this be rational in believing? If it is invalid according to the laws of logic, then it is irrational and unacceptable to the educated mind.

I really have a difficult time understanding atheism when i apply the laws of logic to it, for the following reason

It is impossible to prove a universal negative. When somebody asserts that there is no god, they are making a universal negative in which they cannot prove, and since one cannot prove that there is no God, it is irrational to make such a conclusion.

In order for one to prove that God does not exist, they will have to become God. what do i mean by that?
They would have to be omnipresent, being able to travel through the past and the future at the same time, knowing all things, hence being omniscient. Just because space explorers could not find a man seated on a throne in space does not logically conclude that God does not exsit.

So how do we know God exsits?

We have to question and examine the things around us, as a car will demonstrate to us that it has a maker. Even if you have nevere seen the person or machine that helped to build it you will know it has been created.

To think that a car suddenly came into being from a tornado ripping through a scrapyard throwing the peices together systematically to fashion an engine with a complex design would be therefore irrational.

Can you defend your belief using rationality, science and logic? Are you readay to debate the premises for your conclusion that God does not exist?
If you can disprove God then there is no reason to talk about who Allah is etc, as i would have been defeated. However, if you cannot prove that god doesnt exist, then in my second discourse i will attempt to demonstrate that Allah is the true universal God.
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barney
08-28-2007, 12:34 AM
A Car has a maker. If we so choose we can go to the factory and watch them being assembled. The maker is Fiat or Toyota. we can talk to the designers.


Therefore a maker is provable.
A few words in a book about something being made out of Clay or a clot of blood or gushing fluid or a single rib, dosnt prove anything. If i write on this forum that God told me Man was created from a block of cheesecake and someone reads it in 4000 years time, does that make it true?
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ranma1/2
08-28-2007, 02:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Ibraheem
...

One has to explain why they do not believe in God. What has made them come to that conclusion. Because if we put atheism under the spotlight of logic, we will find that atheism too must have a string of premises to make the conclusion that God does not exist.
WHy? You are the one making the positive claim "god exists". Its like asking why you dont believe the IPU, thor, odin, zeus, GFSM, santa, fairies, unicorns, etc... doesnt exists.

Now many atheists see no evidence for any god "depending on the def but lets go with the general biblica god" Most religous books tend to be self contraditory and oppose scientific knowledge.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Ibraheem
...

However, it is obvious if one does not beleive in God, then one does not believe in the first man and first woman in modern form. I.e. "We are as we were", and if one does not believe in the creation of man and woman, then there is no other option but to believe that we descendend from animals.
there are other alt such as aliens or some other sort of beggining but ill just say that most likely yes.


format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Ibraheem
My question here is do you believe in human rights?
Yes, of course it depend on what you mean. I think as a society we have decided what is good and bad and what rights we have.
In general think of the golden rule.


format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Ibraheem
Secondly, is your belief atheism a valid or invalid belief?
Valid. "of course thats subjective inmany ways but science seems to support it compared to most religous texts"

deleted this next bit since it was essentially......
"747 argument " and he goes over it again this time as a car in a moment..

and of course the simplest responce is
richard dawkins responce of "747 vs ultramega 747 agrument" who created god...

Not to mention as other posters have shown that the entire 747 argument is flawed. Evo is not one step but many.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Ibraheem
It is impossible to prove a universal negative. When somebody asserts that there is no god, they are making a universal negative in which they cannot prove, and since one cannot prove that there is no God, it is irrational to make such a conclusion.
Correct, its pretty much impossible to prove anything 100% "math is the closest thing we have that can do it"
so you believe in the IPU, odin, etc..... You admit it is irrational to come to another conclusion.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Ibraheem
....

So how do we know God exsits?

We have to question and examine the things around us, as a car will demonstrate to us that it has a maker. "once again the 747 argument"...

Can you defend your belief using rationality, science and logic? Are you ready to debate the premises for your conclusion that God does not exist?
If you can disprove God then there is no reason to talk about who Allah is etc, as i would have been defeated. However, if you cannot prove that god doesnt exist, then in my second discourse i will attempt to demonstrate that Allah is the true universal God.

yes we can. "glamour shots" as well as we can show anything doesnt exists.
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czgibson
09-20-2007, 02:09 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Ibraheem
I really have a difficult time understanding atheism when i apply the laws of logic to it, for the following reason

It is impossible to prove a universal negative. When somebody asserts that there is no god, they are making a universal negative in which they cannot prove, and since one cannot prove that there is no God, it is irrational to make such a conclusion.
You're right that it's impossible to prove atheism - it's a belief. That doesn't decrease its validity in any way.

Peace
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------
09-24-2007, 10:31 AM
Hello all,I am Amir this is my first post on these forums and I would like to know...What makes allah so good....Because I am a former musiilim and I never thought allah was very nice......So i have come to the conclusion that even IF he was existant I would reject him and utter the greatest of disrepects from my lips.....So please tell me....what makes him so good? (No i am not trying to start a debate...this is a real question)
:salamext:

Everyone on this thread has pretty much answered the question.

At the end of the day, It's a question of faith and common sense, to be honest.
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AvarAllahNoor
09-24-2007, 12:13 PM
If you begin to realise his virtues, you'll know yourself what makes him good. :D
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believer
09-24-2007, 01:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ApostateAtheist
because of the complete lack of proof that a god exist....and no.....looking at the world is not enough because there are easily natural ways to explain everything...also because of the fact that allah would send someone to hell for simply saying he doesent exist....its really dumb imho.
Nobody is forcing anyone to believe in God... I wouldn't really care much if you did or not or wouldnt. It's your own choice... and we respect your views and belief.

But, let me tell you one thing. If God doesn't exist and you believe not... what do you gain from being a non-believer? and... what if God really do exist... and you believe not.... well... hmmmmmm.

You know who the first rebel is?.... Satan... and he is not sleeping until he can get more people to complain to God like he did. Moreover, there is no more salvation for Satan... that's why he losses nothing by recruiting more people with him. All his efforts is aimed to mislead people and make them not to acknowledge God...

God is Good because He gave us Free Will... this is our chance to save ourselves... by simply making the right decision. Man is naturally weak and it is so easy for man to be lured to the worldy and materialistic or existentialistic views of Satan. anyway, one thing is guranteed... if you don't believe soon... there's a definite destination. If you believe soon... then you have the chance to take the test... because, beleiving alone is not a guarantee unless it is tested by God Himself.... and thats' definite as well.
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believer
09-24-2007, 01:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
From the theistic paradigm, even disbelievers of Allah subhana wa ta'ala are slaves of him, they are just rebellious slaves. Here it is in terms of ownerships, Allah subhana wa ta'ala created us, and to him will we return no matter what we do. There is no escaping it.

As for being slaves of all other things in this world, that is not absolute slavery. Because we are only slave to anything else as far as we allow it to control our life. That is why that if you submit to Allah subhana wa ta'ala (the inescapable slavery) you have the highest degree of freedom, because you escape all other forms of escapable slaveries. If Allah wills it, we even break free of the slavery of our desires and urges (which I think is one of the goals in Buddhism to, right?).
I wish to add:

In a philosophical and logical approach to what you just said: If humanity are all slaves by nature... and if we cannot be masters... with this being given... then, it would be best to be a slave of God... than being slaves of Gods' creation... (this includes: ourselves, our ego, our id, or pride, our intellectual or spiritual prides, materialism, idols, superstars, cars, money, food, nature, health, trivialities, etc.)

Technically, the slave of God is better off than the slave of anything or anyone else. ... Well, I am glad we Muslims made the right choice for ourselves.
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czgibson
09-24-2007, 02:33 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by believer
But, let me tell you one thing. If God doesn't exist and you believe not... what do you gain from being a non-believer? and... what if God really do exist... and you believe not.... well... hmmmmmm.
Pascal's Wager . A very old and oft-criticised argument. For a start, it tells us nothing about what sort of god we should believe in. Also, believing in god on the basis of a similar thought-process to laying a bet on a horse doesn't seem very respectful - would god approve of that kind of belief?

Man is naturally weak and it is so easy for man to be lured to the worldy and materialistic or existentialistic views of Satan.
Just for information: the existentialist view of Satan is that he is a myth invented by humans to scare other humans. It's not clear if that's what you had in mind.
In a philosophical and logical approach to what you just said: If humanity are all slaves by nature... and if we cannot be masters... with this being given... then, it would be best to be a slave of God... than being slaves of Gods' creation... (this includes: ourselves, our ego, our id, or pride, our intellectual or spiritual prides, materialism, idols, superstars, cars, money, food, nature, health, trivialities, etc.)
I fail to see what is 'philosophical' or 'logical' about starting from an unexamined assumption and then making up your argument on that basis. No philosopher or logician would accept this.

Once again, may I ask people to be more careful when using words like 'philosophical' or 'logical'? It's possible that they don't mean what you think they mean.

Peace
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Woodrow
09-24-2007, 02:44 PM
I refuse to moderate any debates or arguments during Ramadan. this thread has become a debate between Deists and Atheists. we can continue if after Ramadan in the appropriate section.
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Abu Ibraheem
07-29-2008, 01:31 AM
It has been the natural believe of the human to believe God exists, since atheism is a new ideology, thus, according to the rules of academia which atheism claims to be founded upon, bears the burden of proof. Since you have stepped into a Muslim arena with you conclusions, then you must state your premises and evidences that led you to make such a conclusion. It is you that is here presenting your beliefs. If i had come to your doorstep and burdened you with the task of disproving my conclusions without giving you any valid evidence as to what leads me to such conclusions then you would be left in the dark and would be unable to disprove my conclusions since you would not have any foundations to build you’re counter argument upon. That is why your evidence of your beliefs is vital to the discussion here.

There is something that tells me that you are not completely an atheist as you state that “Most religious books tend to be self contradictory and oppose scientific knowledge”. I noticed how you did not say “All religious books”. Keep studying, it may serve you well. You just may arrive at the correct conclusion.

I am glad you have admitted that you believe in human rights. Since monkeys cannot sue other monkeys for assault, rape, or theft, then we have to ask where exactly did the system of laws come from? Where did this “golden rule” come from? Because it certainly did not come from Darwin’s “Origins of Species” which the theme of the message echoes that life is a fight for survival and only the fittest will win. With that view in mind, many people are raped of their resources, lead to gas chambers etc, because they are viewed to be the weaker species. So again, where does such human rights come from, because if we look closely throughout history, we find they did not evolve!

Can I also ask how you are going to refashion Dawkins poor attempt of a rebuttal to the “typical 747 argument”?

You have stated that evolution is many steps, fair enough, let us accept that premise and put it under the spotlight of investigation.
We have monkeys, apes and men, but yet where are the “transitional forms”? where are the half man, half monkey? Where are the fossil remains of such a creature? Darwin knew the absence of such evidence would be problematic to his thesis as this is stated in his Origin of Species. In fact, he dedicates a whole chapter of what would disprove his claims, and the fossil records has successfully disproved the claim to evolution. All you have is the so called first step and steps missing in between, then the last step. As a result, your argument falls to the ground.

Again, you bear the burden of proof.
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Trumble
07-29-2008, 07:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Ibraheem
It has been the natural believe of the human to believe God exists
An interesting, if implausible, claim. Do you actually have anything (not 'proof', just evidence of some sort) that supports that hypothesis? It would be more reasonable if you expanded that belief to that in the supernatural in general, to include animism, pantheism etc, although rather than a 'belief' I think what is actually 'natural' to human nature is curiosity and need to explain the otherwise inexplicable.

since atheism is a new ideology
It is not an 'ideology' at all. Regardless, it predates monotheism, or at least the Christian/Islamic flavour of it.
thus, according to the rules of academia which atheism claims to be founded upon
'It' does no such thing. Strawman number two.
I am glad you have admitted that you believe in human rights. Since monkeys cannot sue other monkeys for assault, rape, or theft, then we have to ask where exactly did the system of laws come from? Where did this “golden rule” come from? Because it certainly did not come from Darwin’s “Origins of Species” which the theme of the message echoes that life is a fight for survival and only the fittest will win. With that view in mind, many people are raped of their resources, lead to gas chambers etc, because they are viewed to be the weaker species. So again, where does such human rights come from, because if we look closely throughout history, we find they did not evolve!
Of course they 'evolved', just as any other system of 'rights' and laws evolved. But Darwinian evolution by natural selection had nothing to do with process any more than it did deciding what the penalty for jaywalking should be. They came about, after a long struggle, because enough people realised the existence of such a system was to our mutual advantage. Humanity, overall, is better off with a system of 'human rights' than without them. Unfortunately man's inherently unpleasant nature does tend to re-emerge in some according to particular circumstances, hence exploitation and sometimes genocide of others. It really is that simple... no God or gods required.
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