Sri Lankan girl on death row in saudi for the death of baby in her care

[muzna]

Nafeek Files Appeal a Day Prior to Deadline
Sarah Abdullah & Mohammed Rasooldeen, Arab News

JEDDAH, 17 July 2007 — Rizana Nafeek, the Sri Lankan maid found guilty a month ago of murdering an infant that was in her care, filed an appeal to the ruling a day before the deadline after the Sri Lankan Embassy stepped into retain legal representation on behalf of the young woman, who faces the prospect of being beheaded publicly for the alleged murder.

She was found guilty by a panel of three Shariah judges on June 16 without legal representation, which is not required under Shariah law.

“We respect the laws of the host country and accordingly we have been following the legal procedures to save this girl from the gallows,” said Lankan Deputy Foreign Minister Hussein Bhaila by telephone from Colombo.

According to Sri Lankan Ambassador to Saudi Arabia A.M.J. Sadiq, an attorney from the law firm of Kateb Fahad Al-Shammari has been retained by the embassy to represent the case. The lawyers are filing the appeal and claiming that the case is accidental death, which would take execution off the table and leave the penalty a matter of paying blood money.

The lawyer was permitted by prison authorities on Saturday to visit the Dawadami jailhouse and meet with Nafeek for the purpose of escorting her to a notary public in order to acquire a power of attorney. The appeal was won on Sunday, a day before the deadline to appeal. Had the deadline been broken, Nafeek would have faced the imminent prospect of public beheading.

The case against Nafeek has been complicated by the allegation that she was provided forged documents in Sri Lanka that puts her current age at 25. The date of birth on Rafeek’s Lankan birth certificate allegedly has her born in 1988, which would have made her 17 at the time she clams the infant child she was assigned to care for accidentally choked while she was feeding it in May 2005.

At the time the incident took place, Nafeek had been at her new job for two weeks. The parents of the dead child claim that Nafeek strangled the child to death.

“We will also try other avenues to save Rizana’s life by appealing for pardon on humanitarian grounds,” said Bhaila, referring to an appeal for clemency by the child’s family. (Under Shariah law the family can forfeit their private right to see justice by the sword, usually in exchange for blood money.)

After the judges found the housemaid guilty, Naif Jiziyan Khalafal Otaibi, the father of the child and Nafeek’s Saudi sponsor, refused to give up his private right to see Nafeek executed.

Sadiq says that the Lankan Embassy has been monitoring the development of the case since the alleged murder occurred in May 2005. “It’s due to our provision of the necessary consular assistance to Rizana from the outset and our vigilant monitoring of the case that has made the timely filing of the judicial appeal against the death sentence possible,” he said.

Nafeek, who is from a war-torn, impoverished Sri Lankan village and has a ninth-grade education, reportedly arrived in the Kingdom on an altered passport obtained by the employee recruitment office in Sri Lanka. Despite having no previous training in childcare, Rizana (with the Saudi family under the impression she was 23, not 17) was assigned the duty of bottle-feeding the infant.

According to Nafeek she was left alone to feed the child when the boy began to choke. Panicked she says that she began to shout for help. By the time the mother arrived, the infant had expired. The Otaibis accused Nafeek of strangling the child to death and she was turned over to the police of Dawdami, about 380 km outside of Riyadh. According to Saudi authorities, Nafeek withdraw her confession saying she had no translators at the police station, no legal assistance, was under duress and may not have completely understood what she was signing.

Meanwhile, a group of Sri Lankan expatriate wives in Riyadh is planning to meet the mother of the infant to plead for clemency on behalf of Rizana.

“We would like to make a humble appeal on behalf of Rizana who had struck this tragedy hardly after a month’s stay in the Kingdom,” a member of the group said.
The Asian Human Rights Commission said in a statement yesterday that Nafeek’s legal representatives would also prepare appeals to clemency to the infant’s family and to Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. The embassy has assigned Mohammed Niyas, an embassy staff member, to look after Rizana’s interests as a representative of the Sri Lankan government.

AHRC Executive Director Basil Fernando had earlier publicly condemned the Sri Lankan government for not undertaking the legal costs of the appeal. Fernando said the AHRC footed the first payment of SR50,000 to the law firm Kateb Fahad Al-Shammari. The firm is currently waiting for documents related to the case to be released by the Interior Ministry, after which the lawyers are asking for a second SR50,000 payment. The total lawyer’s fee for the appeal will be SR150,000. The AHRC said two Sri Lankan workers donated $2,500 (SR9,375) and the Netherlands-based Nona Foundation had given $5,400 (SR20,250).

Source : http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&sect...tegory=Kingdom

[muzna]

Background

Rizana was born on 4 February 1988 in Muttur, a war-torn and impoverished Muslim majority village in eastern Sri Lanka which was also affected by the recent Tsunami. She was still a schoolgirl when she was compelled by poverty to go to Saudi Arabia as a maid in May 2005. Though she was only 17 years old at that time, her passport, obtained by an irresponsible employment agent under false pretenses, gave her date of birth as 2 February 1982.

A few days after her arrival in Riyadh, Rizana was transferred by her sponsor to work in his family household in Dawadami, about 390 km west of Riyadh. She was sent to the house of Mr. Naif Jiziyan Khklafal Otaibi, whose wife had a baby boy who was then four months old. Soon after she started working for this family she was assigned to bottle feed the baby - she was left alone when doing this task. Rizana Nafeek had no experience of any sort in caring for such a young infant, as she was only a child herself.


The Incident

On 22 May 2005, while Rizana was feeding the child, he started choking. Panicking, she tried to soothe the child by rubbing his chest, neck and face, while shouting for help.Hearing her shouts the mother came running, but by that time the baby was either unconscious or dead. The family handed Rizana over to the police, accusing her of strangling the baby. At the police station there was no translator so she did not understand the charges brought against her. Rizana was made to sign a confession and later charges were filed in court of murder by strangulation.

The Case

On her first appearance in court she was told by the police to repeat her confession, which she did. Later, when she was finally able to talk to an interpreter, sent by the Sri Lankan embassy, she explained in her own language what actually happened. This version was also stated in court thereafter. According to reports, the judges who heard the case requested the father of the child to use his prerogative to pardon the young girl. But, the father refused to grant such pardon. On that basis the court sentenced her to death by beheading. This sentence was made on June 16, 2007.

The last date of appeal was July 16. The total cost of the appeal is 40,000 US dollars or 150,000 Saudi Riyals. 13,333 US dollars has been given to the lawyers by the Asian Human Rights Commission as the Sri Lanka government has not given money for the appeal. A Sri Lankan government delegation led by Deputy Foreign Minister Hussein Bhaila is hoping to travel to Saudi Arabia to press for Rizana's release.

The question is what can be done for someone who has not received proper legal representation, and from all accounts, appears to have been wrongly convicted. There are a number of human rights organisations working on the issue, including Amnesty and the Asian Human Rights Centre. Please do visit the AHRC site as it includes a call for ordinary people to take action on this issue. The site also goes in to more detail about the background of Rizana's situation.

Rizana's house in Muttur

[north_malaysian]

there's a petition to save her..

http://www.petitiononline.com/rizana1/petition.html

[muzna]

assalam..
rizana's parents left to saudi today to plead with the baby's parents to pardon her.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Cognescenti]

assalam..
rizana's parents left to saudi today to plead with the baby's parents to pardon her.

I understand under Sharia the relatives of the victim have that power but what about the evidence of her guilt? How about the entity that proposes to take her life actually supply some real evidence of her guilt? Domestic help in Saudi are one step from being 21st century slaves. Great system they got there.

How would it be if the internees at Git'mo were executed on the basis of confessions in a foreign language? Hmmm?

[Bittersteel]

so what she did was accidental,it looks.any idea what the sharia says about such accidental deaths?It was not intentional,so she is innocent right?no blood money or anything?
Yes I agree with you Cognes,the Saudi system sucks a lot when it comes to foreigners most of the time.

[AmarFaisal]

I find it a bit confusing, the case of the maid. I mean, if the parents where nearby why'd she call for help and not run with the child to the parents. Why would she choke the baby if she was just recently handed over the baby's responsibility. It would have taken her some time to even get annoyed with the baby and think abt strangling him. BUt still her background is very war torn and full of violence.

It's a dodgy case. WalAllahu 'Alim.

[Bittersteel]

yes its dodgy and I don't trust Saudis to make the correct judgments.Maybe I am a bit prejudiced.

[Tania]

But a doctor didn't see the baby's body :? He could gave to the parents the correct interpretation of what happened with the child.

[Cognescenti]

But a doctor didn't see the baby's body :? He could gave to the parents the correct interpretation of what happened with the child.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think autopsies are permitted under Islam.

[جوري]

You can have autopsies under very special conditions.. I have not read this whole thread but there are other ways indeed to devise if she is guilty of abuse say by way of 'shaken baby syndrome' just from imaging studies, which are very much available every where in the world and there would be no need for an autopsy...

[جوري]

now just skimming through the original article.. that whole 'reviving the baby' bit, I get this sort of mental picture

I can see it all now is so very suspect-- I don't wish to cast doubt on this young lady... and do hope indeed she is granted clemency but I am not sure of her innocence without some medical examiner's report... I think actually it is the only way to determine innocence or guilt regardless of her or the parent's testimony!
:w:

[Cognescenti]

I'm not sure of her innocence either, but I would like to see some evidence of guilt other than a confession in a foreign language.

Would a post mortem CT be permitted?

I have personally never heard of a woman being guilty shaken-baby syndrome. I suspect it does happen, just not nearly as often it does with men who don't seem to be as good at nurturing.

Also, shaken-baby syndrome is not usually promptly fatal, but induces a coma and deterioration.

There may be good evidence, but how would an outisder know with the Saudi system?

[جوري]

What do you mean of an outsider knowing of their system? Medicine is international.. they have doctors there you know?... my uncle lived in Riyadh and was a practicing physician for 12 years before moving back to my home country... one could tell what ailed this baby, just from moderate ocular trauma-- CT scans w/out contrast and MRI are excellent, and are found even in mediocre hospitals... Saudi Arabia is a rich country and their hospitals are excellent... I just feel like the report is deficient-- but I rarely read a news brief of any sort that is beefy and answers my questions.. they are rather orchestrated and rehearsed, I am not sure where truth is from error save for eye witness events... I Think journalism is a lost cause and has gone to the dogs.. I do hope that whomever seeks justice or clemency in this case finds it.. because I imagine it tragic for all parties...

p.s I like that bit about women being nurturing -- I agree =)

[Tania]

I didn't know either the child must be shake in this way. But she was accused of strangling the child. It was not neccesary to make the autopsy but the fingers print in his neck, i think were visible. I would have go for an autopsy to establish her guilty for sure. Its a big responsability whats happening here and for me its obvious she had good intention to help her parents when she accepted the job. Her dream was to make money, not murder childrens.

[جوري]

You are right.. I don't know.. this was one thing I could think off right off the bat where the child wouldn't necessarily have any physical symptoms of trauma or abuse ...there are lots of nanny's who have committed similar crimes.. there was a famous one a few yrs back of some of British au pair Louise Woodward

http://www.cnn.com/US/9710/31/aupair...rap/index.html
look at that cute baby in the pic... so happy and full of life.. it is really very tragic.. Almost inconceivable. so I'd rather not think about it...
As for autopsies--- they are not very pleasant, but are sometimes a necessary evil -- I think if there are other methods to employ to make a sound judgement, and the whole process less painful for everyone then that route should have been pursued... At this point I don't wish to cast judgement on either parties... This isn't politics of the horrible Saudis or Muslims or Bengali's or whomever is on the hate list du jour .. it is about two families very torn apart by a tragic event... with potential to become even more tragic.... it is time to look at the individual tree than the entire forest when studying this... and hope for the best for all those involved insha'Allah
peace!

[Tania]

They want to take the life of a young woman:( They should establish for sure what happened, but i think after 2 years its very hard or even imposible to do that.
She is coming from a humble family without violence background, without nightlife like the woman in your link.

[muzna]

she didnt shake the child..she was bottle feeding the child when the child started to choke..she panicked and called for help..she was 17
she had no legal representation throughout the legal proceedings..which was in a language totally foreign to her..and she signed documents she didnt understand..and that was how she was 'proven' guilty.

[Tania]

she didnt shake the child..she was bottle feeding the child when the child started to choke..she panicked and called for help..she was 17
she had no legal representation throughout the legal proceedings..which was in a language totally foreign to her..and she signed documents she didnt understand..and that was how she was 'proven' guilty.

I am thinking why no one didn't turn against the agency which changed her age and sent an unqualified young woman like professsional baby sitter :? They lied in the first place and didn't ensure any training for her. :hmm:

[north_malaysian]

Why Saudi Gov't allowed an underage girl to be a nanny. And I'm blaming the baby's parents too.... they trusted a 17 year old girl to take care of their baby 24/7?

Crazy!!!:offended:

[Tania]

Why Saudi Gov't allowed an underage girl to be a nanny. And I'm blaming the baby's parents too.... they trusted a 17 year old girl to take care of their baby 24/7?

Crazy!!!:offended:

Agreed 100%. The first question when you are going to take a job is: do you have experience :? What school have you finished or course :? even if she was sent by the agency. I don't belive when someone enter in your house, you are not curious to find more about her or him, especially when you trust the child care in her hands.

[snakelegs]

in the u.s. you are allowed to take care of children ("baby sitting") when you are a teenager. (unless the laws have changed in the 105 years since i was a teenager). there is really not that much to it.
i think the girl got frightened. she had no motive to kill the baby. why would she want to?
south asians are treated pretty poorly in SA, from everything i have heard.
there are now 21743 signatures on the petition.

http://www.petitiononline.com/rizana1/petition.html

[north_malaysian]

[quote=snakelegs;796725]
south asians are treated pretty poorly in SA, from everything i have heard.


http://www.petitiononline.com/rizana...tml[/quote]

and Indonesians are treated poorly in Malaysia...

I am so sad as both the oppressors and the oppressed belongs to the same religious group.

[Tania]

I didn't know you can be baby sitter without qualification :-[. Anyhow like a "caring, loving" mother she should have sit there at her first bottle meal and watch her how she manage the case.
Her case can be send back to the court :?

[Cognescenti]

Why Saudi Gov't allowed an underage girl to be a nanny. And I'm blaming the baby's parents too.... they trusted a 17 year old girl to take care of their baby 24/7?

Crazy!!!:offended:

I would suggest it is because the Saudis have become so effete and spoiled by their oil wealth that they feel compelled to bring in virtual slaves from some of the most impoverished places on Earth to take care of their precious Saudi larvae. Then, if the slave does not meet their expectations, they chop her head off. It saves on return slave-ship fare.

Here is my question...what does the Saudi mom have to do besides take care of the baby? She can't vote (usually). She can't drive. Is she going to play golf in a burka? I suppose she could get the virtual-slave Philippino gardener and maint. guy to drive her down to the air-conditioned mall and shop for jewelry and French perfume.

I suppose I sound a bit anti-Saudi, don't I?

Khaled Sheik Mohammed had better due process rights than this poor girl. What about expert witnesses? Do the three Sharia judges know anything about medicine? A "confession" in a foreign language? That is preposterous on its face. Bah! It is all very hypocritical. A Palestinian in an Israeli court would have a better chance than this girl.

[AmarFaisal]

Well...accidents do happen. It's only that if they happen by an outsider ,he/she is blamed for it. But if it happens by parents, then ...not much happens (atleast not in the middle east or third world countries)

My mother threw a high heel at me when I was 4:scared:
It fractured my skull and I had 5 stitches.:exhausted

My aunt, threw her 5 years old son on the bed with anger:phew
and his arm came off the joint:skeleton:

My brother fell out of the car :enough!: through the door (which was not properly closed). My mother was driving and was taking a U-turn. He was only 3 yrs. If the card behind us hadn't put emergency brakes......:enough!: :enough!: :enough!:

So accidents happen a lot..!!

[جوري]

Pls don't lump the Saudis in one sum .. I have lived there for four years.. and though I have met with some nasty questionable individuals.. I have also met with some of the most chivalrous, and noble ones.

I don't know from where you get your knowledge, have you ever been there??.. the women of Saudi Arabia go into every field no different than any other country.. My teachers were women, the doctors there caring in the women's clinics though predominantly Lebanese and Egyptian, a great deal were also Saudis , some of them are journalists etc...
They are indeed allowed to drive now.. and I assure you,They have women centers, gyms and resorts where women partake in all sorts of activities. There is nothing to vote for as the country is run by a monarchy which in an of itself isn't Islamic, but that is no different than any other so called Islamic country in the world!
Try to formulate an opinion in some other plateau separate from what Daniel Pipe's dishes you on his website ---so that what you write appears more believable...
I am not condoning the mal-treatment of Philippino or any other worker from unfortunate background or circumstance in Arabia or any spot of the world!
More often than not, or even than we care to mention, people are bound by the laws of humanity, and decency, than the laws of decadence and degeneracy. The Saudi Royal family, and the people of Saudi Arabia are not mirror images of one another..
In closure.. I hope Justice and CLEMENCY will be served to the satisfaction of all parties... but don't expect to formulate such a loathsome opinion of an entire peoples and expect to be congratulated or thought of as some deliverer of the misfortunate!
peace!

[Cognescenti]

I will freely admit I have a hard time marshalling a feeling of benevolence for the Saudis. There is the madrasa funding in Pakistan, there is the historic winking at jihadiism, there are the 19 from 9-11 and over 2/3 of the homicide bombers in Iraq now are Saudi nationals.

And I have no interest in being seen as some populist savior of the oppressed. It just bugs me.

Good to hear Saudi women can drive now (from a human rights perspective not from a road safety perspective:sunny: ). Is that everywhere?

Here is an update:

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=38624

DEATH PENALTY-SAUDI ARABIA: Legal Aid for Maid - After Close Shave With Sword
By Feizal Samath

COLOMBO, Jul 22 (IPS) - The dramatic reprieve for a condemned Sri Lankan housemaid won by lawyers, beating a Jul. 16 deadline for filing an appeal in the Saudi Arabian courts, has focused the international spotlight on a closed justice system which condemns people to death without legal representation at their trials.

Rizana Nafeek, a 19-year-old migrant worker, was sentenced to death on Jun. 16 for allegedly intentionally killing a four-month-old infant who choked to death while she was giving it a midday bottle feed in May 2005. Nafeek had only one month to file an appeal or she would have been executed by sword and her body put on public display to deter future offenders.

Her beheading would have been one of more than 100 carried out so far this year in a country currently seeing a surge in state killings, according to Amnesty International (AI). Many of those executed are foreigners. Saudi Arabia has a population of 27 million, including 5.5 million foreign nationals. Last year it executed 39 people, 26 of them foreigners, according to AI.

Nafeek's last-minute reprieve was secured by the Hong Kong-based Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) which launched an international appeal campaign "under extraordinary circumstances". The Commission, with the approval of the Sri Lankan embassy in Riyadh, stepped in to pay the legal costs to a Saudi law firm to challenge the death sentence in court.

"We have filed the appeal by the due date," Sri Lankan deputy minister of foreign affairs Hussain Bhaila told IPS in Colombo, before flying out to Riyadh at the end of last week on a mercy mission. With him on the flight were Nafeek's parents and a local Muslim leader.

This assembled mission was a separate approach to save the maid who now had a stay on execution. They hoped to meet with the dead infant's parents and through various intermediaries secure a pardon. They also hoped to visit the maid in jail.

"It is not going to be easy meeting them (the parents)," Bhaila said, adding that they had already refused to see the Sri Lankan ambassador. Under Saudi law only the parents can grant a pardon, something they had declined to do when the death sentence was passed.

The drama over the international efforts to save Nafeek’s life illustrates the near-impossibility of other condemned migrant workers to engage Saudi lawyers -- even if they are aware they have this right. Nafeek comes from a poor Sri Lankan family and had been working in Saudi Arabia at her employer’s home just two weeks when the tragic incident occurred.

The legal costs of filing her appeal were first put at Saudi Riyal 250,000 (about 66,000 US dollars). The Sri Lankan embassy eventually negotiated a 28,000 dollar reduction.

Although the appeal can now go ahead, lawyers are still waiting for Saudi officials to send them essential documents, including a copy of the final judgement. Even a week before the appeal deadline, the Sri Lankan embassy issued an "urgent request" for this and other key documents needed by lawyers.

With the appeal being filed, Nafeek for the first time since her arrest has legal representation. At her trial she had no independent legal advice, according to the AHRC. This was also the case in the trials of four Sri Lankan migrants who were executed for armed robbery in February this year, according to AI.

The cases are similar in many respects and may be representative of others involving capital trials of foreign workers in Saudi Arabia.

Nafeek was put under duress to sign an incriminating statement that was used to condemn her for strangling the child to death. "At the police station she was very harshly handled and did not have the help of a translator or anyone else to whom she could explain what had happened. She was made to sign a confession and later charges of murder by strangulation were filed in court," according to the AHRC.

In the case of the four Sri Lankan men who were beheaded, they told judges at the trial that they had been beaten by the police during interrogation. One of the four, Ranjith de Silva, in a telephone interview with Human Rights Watch a week before his execution, said he understood that but for his incriminating confession he might not face the death penalty.

De Silva had also said that the judge at his trial did not inform him that he could appeal or provide any of the four a copy of the judgement, according to Human Rights Watch. One of the four is believed to have thought he had been sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment, according to AI.

The conduct of the Saudi judges is under scrutiny in the Nafeek case. According to the AHRC she is said to have informed the judge that she was 17 at the time she arrived in Saudi Arabia in 2005 -- not 23. Her date of birth on her passport had been falsified by the employment agency. This would have meant that she was just 17 at the time of the infant's death and an underage girl.

But the judge failed to call for a medical examination to verify this, according to rights organisations. The Sri Lankan embassy in a statement on Jul. 8 has confirmed that there is a certified copy of Nafeek's birth certificate confirming that she was born on Feb. 4, 1988.

Saudi Arabia sets the minimum age for employment at 22 years, according to Suraj Dandeniya, President of the Association of Licensed Foreign Employment Agencies in Colombo.

The practice of falsifying documents is widespread. According to some estimates, between 10 and 25 percent of Sri Lankan Muslim women who go abroad to work are underage and succeed with bogus documents and passports. There are currently some 300,000 Sri Lankan migrant workers in Saudi Arabia, a third of whom are Muslim women.

"All officials involved in this illegal process are culpable … not only the recruiting agent," said Dandeniya.

David Soysa, director of the Migrant Workers' Centre, a long-standing Colombo-based institution which supports migrant workers, believes Nafeek’s case illustrates just how unprepared and untrained many migrant workers are for their duties in Middle East households. The Sri Lanka Foreign Employment Bureau, the main foreign employment promoting arm of the government, provides only 12 days of training.

"There is a serious problem about lack of proper training of migrant workers. The maid didn't know how to burp a child when choking occurs during feeding, which is common. A trained maid would have handled this easily," he said.

He also believed that this was a case of child trafficking. "The offenders should be punished," he said.

Saudi Arabia is a signatory of the Convention on the Rights of the Child. This bans any member nation from executing anyone for a crime committed while under the age of 18 years.

It is not known when Nafeek's case will come before the appeal courts.

[Cognescenti]

Interesting perspective from the BBC


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4137898.stm



Saudi Arabia's job market rethink
By Bethany Bell
BBC News, Riyadh

The new King of Saudi Arabia, Abdullah, has said one of his priorities is to deal with the problem of unemployment in the kingdom.

Saudi women walk out of a shopping mall in Riyadh
Shopping at the capital's malls is an expensive pastime
For many years, oil-rich Saudi Arabia did not have to worry about joblessness.

But now the population is growing rapidly and the wealth is being spread thinner.

Several million foreigners work in Saudi Arabia but the government is trying to replace them with Saudi workers.

But Saudis do not always want to accept the jobs on offer.

Yassin, 27, a hotel receptionist, is a pioneer - one of just a handful of Saudis working in the hotel industry.

Twenty years ago, in the boom period of oil wealth when millions of foreigners were hired to do the jobs the locals did not want to do, it would have been unthinkable to see a Saudi working in such a menial position.

Saudi-isation

And even now it is unusual. Yassin, the son of a farmer, says his friends made fun of him when he said he wanted to work in a hotel.

"They laughed at me the first time. But when they see me make money they change their minds," he said.

"I hope to be a big manager in this hotel. I am working on it. I am focusing on my job.

I try to make my managers very happy with me and try to do my best. I like to work in this industry - I like it."

The Saudi authorities would be encouraged by Yassin's attitude.


All of our young people would like to be managers, which is absolutely nonsense
Khaled Al-Maeena, Arab News editor-in-chief
They know the oil riches will not last forever and that the economy has to diversify. Meanwhile the number of school leavers - and unemployment - is rising.

At his palace in Riyadh, the governor of the city, Prince Salman bin Abdel Aziz, said the plans are in place to employ more Saudis in the job market.

It is a scheme known here as Saudi-isation.

"We have millions of foreign workers. We need to do two things to provide work opportunities," he said.

"One is to find appropriate jobs - and these are available - and the second is to qualify Saudi youth to work in all sectors of the kingdom."

Aiming too high?

That may be difficult. Many young Saudis have grown up in luxury, seeing their parents getting well paid, high status positions.

Other jobs - from builders to shopkeepers - were done by foreigners, mainly from Asia.

But these days, partly because of the very high birth-rate in Saudi Arabia, there are not enough good jobs to go round.

It is a fact young Saudis, such as 23-year-old Fariz, are reluctant to accept.

Saudi shopping mall
Young Saudis are now considering taking up menial jobs
Fariz, who graduated with an arts degree several months ago, likes to spend his evenings in a decadent coffee bar and nightclub in central Riyadh.

He has already turned down a number of job offers.

"I am waiting for a job - as a teacher. But I refused all offers so I need to wait my next job," he said.

Fariz can afford to wait - funded by the government's generous hand-out system for new graduates.

They receive up to $13,000 (£7,250) when they finish studying - the money generated from Saudi Arabia's vast oil wealth. But in the long run, with the booming population, these pay-outs will be untenable.

Shopping sprees

Khaled Al-Maeena, editor-in-chief of the Arab News newspaper, says the unrealistic expectations of many young Saudis have to be controlled.

"All of our young people would like to be managers, which is absolutely nonsense," he said.

"People have to start somewhere. Everybody would like to go ahead, but if you instil the work ethics I think it would go a long way to alleviate our suffering - because we are suffering.

"What our people should do is to learn from others - we should take as a role model Singapore, Hong Kong, India, Korea - I think these are examples we can take."

It is not just men who are having to join the labour market.

A number of Saudi women have responded eagerly to the job opportunities that have opened up over the past few years. Some of them need the money.

But for some women from conservative families, there is no question of getting a job.

Manal, a wife and mother, says she enjoys spending time and money at one of Riyadh's most expensive shopping malls, the Mamlaka.

Many young Saudis have grown up expecting luxury as a matter of course. The question is whether they can get the jobs to pay for it in future.

[جوري]

I don't know if they are allowed to drive every where, but I do know that as of late they can...
I expect that self indulgent folk only get what they deserve at some point because even if justice is slow, it always prevails.. and will agree there is a miserable mal-treatment of foreigners, as I myself was a foreigner in their country and very young at the time not to appreciate the full bodied prejudices... I also know that I have seen the other side of the coin.. I know that we had a poor neighbor upstairs who used to go around asking if anyone needed clothes as she was working as a seamstress along with her husband to support her family, and I know that though my family might not have had more than a two word exchange with that lady, that every occasion or celebration they'd knock on our door check on us and leave us gift baskets, in spite of their meager means.
I know when my dad left on a diplomatic mission, he left us entrusted for six month to the sponsorship of a Saudi man who oversaw and took care of all our needs, I know that the principal of my grade school, used to escort me home to my mother every day, even though she was showing blatant favoritism.. there were/are people there that have my respect, my love and gratitude, some whom I keep in touch with to this day, and some regrettably will only exist in my memory at that particular period of my life... above all... I love the two holy cities of Mecca and Medina...
& No report coming out of CNN or BBC, speaking of taliban or 911 or whatever, will deprive or erase from me the human experience or make me hateful via means of mass hysteria.. I have seen and read of the insolence the west displays toward everything middle eastern or Islamic-- I know what a gross misrepresentation smells like.

peace!

[Cognescenti]

Oh...alright...I admit it...there probably are some nice Saudis <kicks sand with shoe>.

I restrict my comments to the self-indulgent Saudis, and the jihadists, and the Al Quaeda boosters, and the Al Queada hardcores and the royal family.

<generalization filter off>I still think they treat foreign workers like cattle.

[Joe98]

So, today it comes to light the woman is a Muslim.

She ought to be pleased she was tried under Sharia law instead of a Western style court.

-

[جوري]

good ole Joe.. with another episode of noetic mal-absorption .. lay of the John Barleycorn before you write pls. So we can make sense of what you are trying to Allege!

[Tania]

If i would have power i would sent out the foreigners and i would leave the saudis to do the entire jobs alone. Lets see how they will speak then.

[north_malaysian]

If i would have power i would sent out the foreigners and i would leave the saudis to do the entire jobs alone. Lets see how they will speak then.

How many Saudis want to work as maids, sweepers or construction workers?

[Cognescenti]

good ole Joe.. with another episode of noetic mal-absorption .. lay of the John Barleycorn before you write pls. So we can make sense of what you are trying to Allege!

It is beginning to look like all non-Muslims on the forum either have their brains ecysted with pork tapeworm larvae or addled by alcohol.

That seems rather an offensive generalization to me. :okay:


I think Joe raises a good point. Here is a Muslim girl sentenced to have her head separated from her young neck by three Saudi (probably old) men (whose language she does not speak) without the aid of an advocate.

Seems a rotten deal to me.

There is a reason a group of English noblemen gather under an oak about 800 yrs ago.

[muzna]

the agency is coming under a lot of fire and the sri lankan government is being criticised for its initially inactivity regarding her case

[muzna]

and in reply to the other comments..the people in the gulf are known for physically abusing their maids..

[Tania]

How many Saudis want to work as maids, sweepers or construction workers?

Exactly thats the point. They will work, when the garbage will fill up their yards and the kids will smell bad, they will do it.

[جوري]

It is beginning to look like all non-Muslims on the forum either have their brains ecysted with pork tapeworm larvae or addled by alcohol.

That seems rather an offensive generalization to me. :okay:


I think Joe raises a good point. Here is a Muslim girl sentenced to have her head separated from her young neck by three Saudi (probably old) men (whose language she does not speak) without the aid of an advocate.

Seems a rotten deal to me.

There is a reason a group of English noblemen gather under an oak about 800 yrs ago.

Two hardly constitutes 'a lot'... further, I have never understood nor shall understand the purpose of Joe on this forum.. I think he is well suited for his 'mad-house stake' forum which he so proudly testified to the rest of us... I get a mental image of a bumpkinly country boy with rotted teeth when ever I have the displeasure of reading on of his awkward and out of place one liners.. no matter!...
people can scream abuse all they want, and I realize the Muslim opinion on board as per regard to this case... I'll still maintain a couple here have lost their young one-- I hope none of you lose your children to an au-pair or an under trained impoverished girl from Sri Lanka, then I think the situation will be very different. If none of you have ever had the need for a baby sitter for one reason or another, then I commend you. But the reality of it, they entrusted their child to the care of a young lady and lost their child! Choking in children for some sort congenital anatomical defect would have been discovered in the very first feeding. I don't even need to be that involved in the case or read more about it, to figure that on some remote level, she was unequipped to handle this!
It is still my hope that the couple will fulfil their Islamic duty and grant respite and clemency to this girl... As for your brown paper with ink... I am sure you know what to do with it.. I am not going to suddenly see how wonderful a group partisans are just because you upload an image... History echoes rather loudly in the minds and ears of all who have been occupied at some point or another by colonial settlers who stole the wealth of nations and later came to speak of how genteel and civilized they are...and yet have the audacity to speak of justice of a bunch of lowly supremacists when modern day you hold hostages in Guantanamo, with no judge or trial... not even 60 years ago, you were asking a black woman to get up for a white man and move to the back of the bus.. are you kidding me? or you are hoping to re-write history as suits you, and turn a blind eye to what still occurs? Get off your high horse, we are not all a bunch of dolts who accept whatever bull you dish out just because you feign authority when alleging your assertions!

This thread like all others in world affairs is proving rather a waste.. and sullied by the regulars .. thus I am un subscribing.

peace!

[Tania]

I'll still maintain a couple here have lost their young one-- I hope none of you lose your children to an au-pair or an under trained impoverished girl from Sri Lanka, then I think the situation will be very different

It was an accident which happened because the nanny was unqualified. Her first experience.

In my country the justice keep in mind for accidents don't punish the people.
Case 1
The father made an lengthener for the electrical cord to plug the tv. Somehow the 1 + year old son took the cable in his hands and died because of electrocution. How much cost a lengthener for cable. Why the father didn't think his son could play with everything when he is down and near to his bed :? He was not punished because was an accident.

Case 2
Yesterday a 3 old child played with a box of matches. The carpet took fire and the 6 month old suffocated because of the smoke. Who is coulpable for this :? After the justice the mother who left the 2 kids after their heads. Will she go in jail for that :? Nope, because it was an accident.

And i can carry on.
Will the other spouse forgive the one which was coupable for the death of the child :? I don't know but the justice forgave them.

[muzna]

the punishment for murder is execution..
the girl did not murder the baby..
therefore..this whole case is mental..she shouldnt be on deathrow

[Tania]

the punishment for murder is execution..
the girl did not murder the baby..
therefore..this whole case is mental..she shouldnt be on deathrow

Sis i hope the saudi justice correct their error without to be ashamed.

Also, the government should sustain the parents like my country does: here after birth you have 2 years paid vacation only to look after child. Can remain at home the spouse which want to do that (mother or father, doesn't matter). For this they receive monthly a big amounth of money which is above of the medium wage.

[جوري]

It was an accident which happened because the nanny was unqualified. Her first experience.

In my country the justice keep in mind for accidents don't punish the people.
Case 1
The father made an lengthener for the electrical cord to plug the tv. Somehow the 1 + year old son took the cable in his hands and died because of electrocution. How much cost a lengthener for cable. Why the father didn't think his son could play with everything when he is down and near to his bed :? He was not punished because was an accident.

Case 2
Yesterday a 3 old child played with a box of matches. The carpet took fire and the 6 month old suffocated because of the smoke. Who is coulpable for this :? After the justice the mother who left the 2 kids after their heads. Will she go in jail for that :? Nope, because it was an accident.

And i can carry on.
Will the other spouse forgive the one which was coupable for the death of the child :? I don't know but the justice forgave them.

Quick note, if it is accidental, indeed the father in the case you mentioned wouldn't not have to be punished... I think losing a child and knowing you are somehow responsible is punishment enough!
I can go a little bit into Islamic Jurisprudence with you, but I don't think there is a point for it on this thread.. let's just say it is very much in the parents' hands to grant full reprieve for this young lady w/out even financial compensation as is usually the norm offered for involuntarily man-slaughter... and a trait called (al-7olom) which is more admirable than seeking justice!
I think what needs to be established is a fair trial for this young lady w/out the need to resort to vilify a couple who have just lost their child. Or cutting and pasting articles and this isn't directed at you, about how just the U.S is so just ( same U.S that is declared war on people to steal their oil, and put prisoners in a remote spot without trial, and strips people nude for voyeuristic purposes and posts their pictures flauntingly on the web without an ounce of remorse) and yet have the audacity to contrast this to how backwards Islamic law!..

Frankly a 'monarchy'- isn't Islamic law, so rather than waste my time trying to explain a case of which most of us have marginal knowledge -- I'll say fully from my heart, I hope she is granted clemency, and I hope the couple can pick up the pieces and move on with their lives putting this entirely behind them
:w:

[Tania]

I can go a little bit into Islamic Jurisprudence with you, but I don't think there is a point for it on this thread.. let's just say it is very much in the parents' hands to grant full reprieve for this young lady w/out even financial compensation as is usually the norm offered for involuntarily man-slaughter... and a trait called (al-7olom) which is more admirable than seeking justice!
I think what needs to be established is a fair trial for this young lady w/out the need to resort to vilify a couple who have just lost their child and yet have the audacity to contrast this to how backwards Islamic law!..
..... and I hope the couple can pick up the pieces and move on with their lives putting this entirely behind them
:w:

I can't understand the islamic trial which went during this case, base on which she was sentenced to death. Because it was a trial in the court with 3 men, if i understood well.

The parents, even the mother which could not leave her job to look after the child, and hired the nanny is quilty. Even if she had no money to pay a professional nanny, because we know this young womans work is CHEAP, her first concern would have been the child.
-Do you know to feed the child :?
-Do you know to change diapers :?
-Do you know how to bath the child :?
-Have you done this until now :?
Very good. You don't know, and i will show you.
Thats the attitude. In adition, my mom which have certain experience with children :-[ said the kids are very different. and the best to know the moods of the child its exactly the mother.

[Cognescenti]

....I think what needs to be established is a fair trial for this young lady w/out the need to resort to vilify a couple who have just lost their child. Or cutting and pasting articles and this isn't directed at you, about how just the U.S is so just ( same U.S that is declared war on people to steal their oil, and put prisoners in a remote spot without trial, and strips people nude for voyeuristic purposes and posts their pictures flauntingly on the web without an ounce of remorse) and yet have the audacity to contrast this to how backwards Islamic law!..

Frankly a 'monarchy'- isn't Islamic law, so rather than waste my time trying to explain a case of which most of us have marginal knowledge -- I'll say fully from my heart, I hope she is granted clemency, and I hope the couple can pick up the pieces and move on with their lives putting this entirely behind them
:w:

I thought you signed off this thread seeing as how it had been sullied with all the unwashed "regulars". Inevitably when a "Westerner" raises concerns about Sharia this is exactly what we are told. Pat response number 1..."the country has not correctly implemented Islamic law" or 2...."the non-Muslims are too ignorant or (in this case) too stupid to understand".

The US has flaws in its justice system. So stipulated. Generally they are flaws of imperfect implementation by human beings rather than systematic errors. Sometimes they are systematic and need to be changed. That is really the point, isn't it? Nobody is wedded to precedent and they don't get their fur up when criticized.

I too hope the family finds peace after their terrible loss. Clemency would be a very humane gesture. Even better would be giving the poor girl a fair trial in the first place.


BTW...do tell us, whose oil has been stolen and where was it taken

[Tania]

I thought you signed off this thread seeing as how it had been sullied with all the unwashed "regulars". Inevitably when a "Westerner" raises concerns about Sharia this is exactly what we are told. Pat response number 1..."the country has not correctly implemented Islamic law" or 2...."the non-Muslims are too ignorant or (in this case) too stupid to understand".

The US has flaws in its justice system.

Its better she didn't sing off :) because she knows the country justice.
I am out from this us versus saudi fight - who is the best - because i don't sustain us either.

My heart is only impressed by the faith of this young woman which proud wanted to help her parents to improve their life. What a great feeling when you can proove to parents you are able to sustain and help them. :D

[جوري]

the non-Muslims are too ignorant or (in this case) too stupid to understand".

Indeed that is quite adequate "cognoscente" a revealing and honest insight to self for a change! Should have thought of that before cutting and pasting your famous articles of off topic posts-- I don't need to read about a young Saudi Man working in hotel and resorts to establish an impression.. or what a Saudi woman is doing hiring a governess when all she has to do is wear a burka and not drive--It is all very tangential and in bad taste not to mention disrespectful to both afflicated parties!

The US has flaws in its justice system. So stipulated. Generally they are flaws of imperfect implementation by human beings rather than systematic errors. Sometimes they are systematic and need to be changed. That is really the point, isn't it? Nobody is wedded to precedent and they don't get their fur up when criticized.

I don't see why one is 'systematic errors of human beings' and the other one is flaws in the jurisprudence? we call this hypocrisy by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have-- yet, so eager to point out flaws in others-- Do make sure you are more Jesus like before you dish out more of your insufferable insolence! further, if it weren't your 'fur' that is ruffled then I hazard ask why do YOU roll back to this thread like a bad penny peddling more of your famous bull? Are you projecting?

I too hope the family finds peace after their terrible loss. Clemency would be a very humane gesture. Even better would be giving the poor girl a fair trial in the first place.

Agreed for a change ( and that is the Islamic thing to do!).. let's leave it at that -- although I do know how you enjoy your frequent verbal diarrhea...

BTW...do tell us, whose oil has been stolen and where was it taken

who are you in the scheme of things that I should feel the slightest need to explain? .. you are best suited for the couch and fox news.. just open wide and let the propaganda permeate you-- Dish it out later to like minds..I am genuinely unimpressed!

[جوري]

Its better she didn't sing off :) because she knows the country justice.

That is a bit incoherent Tania, what are you trying to say? I honestly expected a little more from you-- Don't you find it Socially incorrect to speak of another person in absentia? We call that back biting!

I am out from this us versus saudi fight - who is the best - because i don't sustain us either.

I am not sure I understand what that means either... This isn't about Saudi, or Sri, east or west this isn't about Islamic jurisprudence or the magna carta of medieval society!.. This has to do with a couple who have lost their young one, and a woman who committed involuntary man-slaughter-- really there is no need to turn it into more than what it is..

My heart is only impressed by the faith of this young woman which proud wanted to help her parents to improve their life. What a great feeling when you can proove to parents you are able to sustain and help them. :D

The young woman is herself Muslim!.. Indeed May she be granted Clemency, and be able to move on with her life and put this behind her

Peace!

[Cognescenti]

Indeed that is quite adequate "cognoscente" a revealing and honest insight to self for a change!

No, no. I do intend the plural form. It's the "Royal We", you understand.

I don't see why one is 'systematic errors of human beings' and the other one is flaws in the jurisprudence? we call this hypocrisy by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have-- yet, so eager to point out flaws in others-- Do make sure you are more Jesus like before you dish out more of your insufferable insolence! further, if it weren't your 'fur' that is ruffled then I hazard ask why do YOU roll back to this thread like a bad penny peddling more of your famous bull? Are you projecting?

I dind't folow that first bit. That isn't what I said.

I probably could stand to be more like Jesus. It isn't easy. One has to be good at forgiving and turning the other cheek after repeated insults. :rollseyes As for returning to the thread? I thought it was an interesting discussion and I wasn't the one who foreswore participation :) I was sort of hoping for someone to explain what went wrong here. I think the concept of due process is an important one. Apparently, that is not universally shared. It is an interesting cultural distinction.

who are you in the scheme of things that I should feel the slightest need to explain? .. you are best suited for the couch and fox news.. just open wide and let the propaganda permeate you-- Dish it out later to like minds..I am genuinely unimpressed!

Ah...the last line of defence of the losing party---a string of childish insults. QED.

[جوري]

No, no. I do intend the plural form. It's the "Royal We", you understand.

I wasn't sure which one of your many personalities I was addressing.. the plural is always best, lest one of them takes offense

I dind't folow that first bit. That isn't what I said.

Work on your 'spelling' and vocab, if you wish others to work on their comprehension!

I probably could stand to be more like Jesus. It isn't easy. One has to be good at forgiving and turning the other cheek after repeated insults. :rollseyes As for returning to the thread? I thought it was an interesting discussion and I wasn't the one who foreswore participation :) I was sort of hoping for someone to explain what went wrong here. I think the concept of due process is an important one. Apparently, that is not universally shared. It is an interesting cultural distinction.

I believe it has to do more with your need to draw satisfaction out of simplistic conclusions than reaching the correct one. spending years on end benumbed by constant clystering from Fox will do that to you!

Ah...the last line of defence of the losing party---a string of childish insults. QED.

losing party? what is this the arcade? :lol: we won't count you out yet, you really are good for a chuckle! ;D

[Tania]

That is a bit incoherent Tania, what are you trying to say? I honestly expected a little more from you-- Don't you find it Socially incorrect to speak of another person in absentia? We call that back biting!
This has to do with a couple who have lost their young one, and a woman who committed involuntary man-slaughter-- really there is no need to turn it into more than what it is..

I am not back biting. I said it in public, not behind your back:confused:
Regarding your sentence i liked how you pointed out "involuntary" You are agree it was an accident so why the judges didn't take that in account under islamic laws :? In each country she would have been free, in this country she lost 2 years from her life + she is under investigation right now too. That i can't understand.

[جوري]

I am not back biting. I said it in public, not behind your back:confused:
Regarding your sentence i liked how you pointed out "involuntary" You are agree it was an accident so why the judges didn't take that in account under islamic laws :? In each country she would have been free, in this country she lost 2 years from her life + she is under investigation right now too. That i can't understand.

I believe a pic is worth a thousand word Tania.. here is your answer as to why.. and it has nothing to do with Islamic jurisprudence

peace!

[Tania]

I believe a pic is worth a thousand word Tania.. here is your answer as to why.. and it has nothing to do with Islamic jurisprudence
peace!

You have right sis. This case is clear : between 2 tea cups, even not understanding what she is saying, impressed by their own citizens grief, they convicted without remorses her.That was not islamic law, i am sure about that.

[muzna]

I too hope the family finds peace after their terrible loss. Clemency would be a very humane gesture. Even better would be giving the poor girl a fair trial in the first place.

i agree... the girl was not given a fair trial..she had no legal representation, was made to sign documents she didnt understand, did not speak the language the trial was conducted in. the fact of the matter is, either way, she's about to be punished for murder, when it is known that she did not murder the child.

[Cognescenti]

I believe a pic is worth a thousand word Tania.. here is your answer as to why.. and it has nothing to do with Islamic jurisprudence

peace!

So, if Colin Powell visits a Muslim country they are prevented, in perpetuity, from adhering to Islamic jurisprudence? That is complete obfuscation.

Please tell us, where exactly, is the closest form of Shariah practiced and in what way, exactly, was the trial of this girl deficient in following the rules. Or, you could perhaps post a 25 year old picture of Saddam shaking hands with Rumsfeld. That one is always good for laughs.

[جوري]

This thread has been around for days, and for some reason we can't get past your dense vegetations!. ..
I am too revolted by your person and even that is an understatement! I honestly feel defiled just replying back to you!
The a perpetual struggle of the soul to maintain simple moral standards, that which is obvious even to the most concrete thinkers eludes you! You are actually the sort of fellow who finds joy in the death of an infant- because some 'Indulgent Saudi burka wearing woman deserves it.

It doesn't matter how many times we assert that involuntary man-slaughter, can and should be forgiven in Islamic jurisprudence, for again you won't get it. Anymore as to why the kaffir state of Saudi Arabia is just as demonic as yours. I don't find you witty, satirical or even level-headed to want to engage you beyond this point!... Is there a point to this or are you having a slow day--and this is where you come to get your entertainment to the point you actually have to snatch a post directed to someone else just to bait me into replying back?.. If you don't like it here, then don't be a member here! And please use you time off wisely, read a few books, so you don't end up a poster boy for im**cility.. like so!

Enough said!

[Cognescenti]

This thread has been around for days, and for some reason we can't get past your dense vegetations!. ..
I am too revolted by your person and even that is an understatement! I honestly feel defiled just replying back to you!

Aw shucks! I bet you say that to all the kafir. Evidently, my question has troubled you in some fashion.

The a perpetual struggle of the soul to maintain simple moral standards, that which is obvious even to the most concrete thinkers eludes you! You are actually the sort of fellow who finds joy in the death of an infant- because some 'Indulgent Saudi burka wearing woman deserves it.

I said no such thing. One poor child is dead. Another poor child (she is after all, only 17 and probably equally innocent!) may be executed under the direction of a three judge panel. Perhaps that can be avoided.

It doesn't matter how many times we assert that involuntary man-slaughter, can and should be forgiven in Islamic jurisprudence, for again you won't get it.

That is the first time I have seen anyone assert that. 5 will get you 10 there is no equivalent term for "involuntary manslaughter", but I would be genuinely interested to know. Is it really the case the "trial" should not have been brought or is the convicted expected to rely on the forgiveness of the victim's family? That seems rather iffy to me. Perhaps some other informed person could answer as we wouldn't want you to feel defiled, wouldn't we?

Anymore as to why the kaffir state of Saudi Arabia is just as demonic as yours. I don't find you witty, satirical or even level-headed to want to engage you beyond this point!...!

Your veneer of civility is starting to wear off.

Is there a point to this or are you having a slow day--and this is where you come to get your entertainment to the point you actually have to snatch a post directed to someone else just to bait me into replying back?.. If you don't like it here, then don't be a member here! And please use you time off wisely, read a few books, so you don't end up a poster boy for im**cility.. like so!
Enough said!

I guess the string of insults means you are unable or unwilling to answer my simple question. Most sorry for having troubled you.

Thanks for the reading tip. I'll try that.

[جوري]

I said no such thing. One poor child is dead. Another poor child (she is after all, only 17 and probably equally innocent!) may be executed under the direction of a three judge panel. Perhaps that can be avoided.

Sure that is exactly what you have said go back and re-read your posts


I see no other purpose for your long winded cuts and pastes of which, I'd get no joy going back a few pages and linking it to yet another, it is a waste of time, but here is one for the sake of gaiety and merriment --

I would suggest it is because the Saudis have become so effete and spoiled by their oil wealth that they feel compelled to bring in virtual slaves from some of the most impoverished places on Earth to take care of their precious Saudi larvae. Then, if the slave does not meet their expectations, they chop her head off. It saves on return slave-ship fare.


Here is my question...what does the Saudi mom have to do besides take care of the baby? She can't vote (usually). She can't drive. Is she going to play golf in a burka? I suppose she could get the virtual-slave Philippino gardener and maint. guy to drive her down to the air-conditioned mall and shop for jewelry and French perfume.

I suppose I sound a bit anti-Saudi, don't I?

what am I to infer from this really?
A little saudi Larva as you so describe is indeed dead-- please bring out your alcoholic beverage of choice drink yourself into dementia and just take a hike as the rest of what you write is as disgustingly filthy!

You want to learn about Islamic jurisprudence then Join Al-Azhar.. the oldest and first university in the world.. people dedicate a life time to studying Islamic law, I will not sum it up for you in one line to be all agreeable and entertaining!

• 3:133-134. And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord and a garden as wide as the heavens and earth, prepared for the righteous, who spend [in the cause of God ] during ease and hardship and who restrain anger and who pardon all people - and God loves the doers of good.

It is becoming difficult for me to apply the above myself.. I might just get some joy out of knowing something untoward befell you or one of your larvae...

[Cognescenti]

what am I to infer from this really?

You are to infer that I don't have much patience for the Saudi pampered class. Evidently, you don't either as you called them "demonic".

• 3:133-134. And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord and a garden as wide as the heavens and earth, prepared for the righteous, who spend [in the cause of God ] during ease and hardship and who restrain anger and who pardon all people - and God loves the doers of good.

It is becoming difficult for me to apply the above myself.. I might just get some joy out of knowing something untoward befell you or one of your larvae...

Ah, well, then please enjoy your moment of joy as the precondition has been met. I will try to apply the above, very sensible passage to the Saudis.

[جوري]

Ah, well, then please enjoy your moment of joy as the precondition has been met.

As much as I find your replies repugnant-- and I am to safely assume is a window to your soul.. I don't wish injury on you or your young ones! That goes against all the characteristics that define humanity! It doesn't pleasure me to learn that something inauspicious has befallen another human being!

peace!