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- Qatada -
07-17-2007, 03:27 PM
The Big bang.


What happened 'before' it? (if you believe in it.) A simple answer will do please, no debates.


This thread isn't to do with whether it really happened or not, just want your opinion or view.



Thanks in advance.



Reply

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tears4husain
07-17-2007, 03:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
The Big bang.


What happened 'before' it? (if you believe in it.) A simple answer will do please, no debates.


This thread isn't to do with whether it really happened or not, just want your opinion or view.



Thanks in advance.


:sl: 10times out of 10 I agree with you qatada, but I do want to see some of the replies on this thread.
Reply

Gator
07-17-2007, 04:14 PM
My guess would be nothing, just a basic fabric of the universe.
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AmarFaisal
07-17-2007, 04:17 PM
:sl:

I beleive in whatever is written in the Quran abt the creation of universe. I think Big bang is a part of it:? (I think I read that somewhere).

Anyway, if there was a big bang then b4 that came Allah's creation of pencil/pen , creation of angels, jin, shaitaan (or mayb they came after the big bang) .

Allah knows better.
May He forgive me for errors in my statement.

:w:
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wilberhum
07-17-2007, 04:29 PM
My understanding is that for the first split second after the Big Bang, the laws of physics do not apply, so it is not possible to understand what happened.. And most probably we will never understand what happened in that split second or anything before.
Of course you can always use the 3 letter answer for anything.
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-17-2007, 04:35 PM
Assalamu Alaikum

interesting bro :)

before the big bang there was possibly whatever Allah willed there to be.

Bro the heavens were created before earth right :?
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allah-akbar
07-17-2007, 04:38 PM
well... our fairest answer would be "allah knows best" and he sure does,

but i want to include that the earth was made before Adam (halisalam) 's arrival on earth.
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-17-2007, 04:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by allah-akbar
well... our fairest answer would be "allah knows best" and he sure does,

but i want to include that the earth was made before Adam (halisalam) 's arrival on earth.
yeah bro but the heavens were created before the earth right?

We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,-037.006
i always wondered if the lowest heaven contains the stars we see in the sky....
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Keltoi
07-17-2007, 05:17 PM
I've read a few articles on this subject, and there are several theories out there about what existed prior to the Big Bang. The latest theory is called the "string theory" or the "M-Theory". Basically that our universe could exist alongside other universes different in space and time. It is fairly complicated, and I don't have the lingo to explain it. Basically the theory is that the universe was a mixture of extreme heat and gas before this supposed "Big Bang", and that alternate universes were also created alongside our own, sort of like a bubble bath, with each bubble representing a universe. I suppose that would tie in to the ever expanding universe principle.
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faisalsaeed
07-17-2007, 07:46 PM
Aslaamualaikum,

First of all I would like to share something in urdu, "Yeh Duniya hey Faani, tau iska matlab hey k Kainaat bhi hey faani".

Allah has created everything with a balance and perfection. The big bang is a sceintific theory, of course only Allah knows better. We can only guess, how it happened. Space images of dying stars (Nebula) might be an example of how the big bang was.

Indeed, Allah knows that we do not know. (Full stop)
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Joe98
07-17-2007, 11:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim;
I always wondered if the lowest heaven contains the stars we see in the sky....

Religious people believe that heaven is a place the mind cannot comprehend.

Your statement is evidence of your doubt there is any heaven.

Look through a telescope and learn that the stars are nothing more than suns. Just like our sun but a very long way away.
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snakelegs
07-17-2007, 11:04 PM
my answer is simple:
i do not know.
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ranma1/2
07-17-2007, 11:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
my answer is simple:
i do not know.

good honest answer.

me too.

However there are some theories.

Some suggests that this universe is just one of many cycles.
big bang universe big crunch and repeat....

i think hawkings said theorizing whats before the universe or time is like theorizing whats up from up.
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snakelegs
07-17-2007, 11:46 PM
i confess! i like questions a lot better than answers! :giggling:
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Joe98
07-18-2007, 01:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada

The Big bang.What happened 'before' it? (if you believe in it.) ........no debates.

We don't know what happened. And because we don't know we can therefore come to an educated conclusion.

Thor, the god of war, Venus the god of love and the great spaghettie monster all got together for a great tea party in the sky!

NO DEBATE !
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August
07-18-2007, 07:06 AM
Does anyone else feel overwhelmed thinking about things like this? Just the thought of how incomprehensibly vast the universe is...

What happened before the big bang? As a theist I'd have to say nothing. When I was an atheist, I always liked the idea about cycles (bang, expand, contract, crunch, bang), made me wonder what the other universes were like.
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guyabano
07-18-2007, 07:09 AM
I guess, this is one of these questions, nobody will be ever able to answer !
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Malaikah
07-18-2007, 10:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Religious people believe that heaven is a place the mind cannot comprehend.

Your statement is evidence of your doubt there is any heaven.

Look through a telescope and learn that the stars are nothing more than suns. Just like our sun but a very long way away.
Islamically, heaven does not refer to paradise. There are seven heavens, and the lowest heaven is adorned with stars.
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Trumble
07-18-2007, 10:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Islamically, heaven does not refer to paradise. There are seven heavens, and the lowest heaven is adorned with stars.
So if the lowest is the one with the stars (i.e, presumably, the cosmos as it can be viewed with a telescope) how are the others interpreted? As some sort of other spiritual realms, or planes of conciousness?
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-18-2007, 11:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Religious people believe that heaven is a place the mind cannot comprehend.

Your statement is evidence of your doubt there is any heaven.

Look through a telescope and learn that the stars are nothing more than suns. Just like our sun but a very long way away.
no actually it proves i really think there is a heaven and wondered if i stare at it at night :p
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ranma1/2
07-18-2007, 01:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Islamically, heaven does not refer to paradise. There are seven heavens, and the lowest heaven is adorned with stars.
doesnt that go against the "Science" of the quran?
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Malaikah
07-18-2007, 02:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
So if the lowest is the one with the stars (i.e, presumably, the cosmos as it can be viewed with a telescope) how are the others interpreted? As some sort of other spiritual realms, or planes of conciousness?
Umm... as far as I know this universe is the lowest heaven and there are six others, each one is what bigger than the last (the lowest is like a ring in a desert compared to the 2nd, and the 2nd is like a ring in a desert compared to the 3rd, ect).

format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
doesnt that go against the "Science" of the quran?
Why? :? Do you deny that we have stars?:confused:
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root
07-18-2007, 02:42 PM
Maybe we are in nothing more than a computer simulation, perhaps our universe is the insides of a super massive dark star.

Equally, perhaps the universe does not even exist when no one is looking!
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-18-2007, 02:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
Maybe we are in nothing more than a computer simulation, perhaps our universe is the insides of a super massive dark star.

Equally, perhaps the universe does not even exist when no one is looking!
and was there a perfect human being with knowledge which couldnt possibly have been his documented in history who said this?


oh please....
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- Qatada -
07-18-2007, 03:51 PM
nah i'm just askin cuz i want to see what the views are (especially of atheists.)


So from what i see here, they're just opinions of the crunch, bang, expand etc? Yet they don't have no evidences for them? Is it just like a theory?



Thanks for responding.
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guyabano
07-18-2007, 04:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
nah i'm just askin cuz i want to see what the views are (especially of atheists.)


So from what i see here, they're just opinions of the crunch, bang, expand etc? Yet they don't have no evidences for them? Is it just like a theory?



Thanks for responding.
ok, we don't need again another Joker which just has the wish to expose Atheists or whoever else ! We had already now a few muslims which couldn't also proove anything even except reciting some verses and all their questions had been answered.
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- Qatada -
07-18-2007, 04:04 PM
Since when did i say i wanted to 'prove' anyone wrong? :? I'm asking a question and i got a right to do that.


If you really want to know why i'm askin, then ask me. If you just want to accuse me of something which i never intended - then anyone can play that game.




Peace.
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guyabano
07-18-2007, 04:14 PM
To be honest, there were now 2 threads, about Camouflage and Proof about whatever were the Threadstarters had just the intentions to make all different-believers drop the pants. But they failed blatantly.

Knowing well, the BigBang Story can never been answered, you should then got interest in readings of Stephen Hawkins, he can give you the answeres you are looking for.
But one thing I know for sure: The story about Allah the Creator is as silly as the BigBang Story in that case !

So far, we just bash on each other to finally say nothing.

Was that your intention?
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Gator
07-18-2007, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
nah i'm just askin cuz i want to see what the views are (especially of atheists.)

So from what i see here, they're just opinions of the crunch, bang, expand etc? Yet they don't have no evidences for them? Is it just like a theory?

Thanks for responding.
Most of the replies have been I don't know. As for my reply you asked for my opinion and I gave it. So yes, since you asked for opinions you got opinions.

Thanks.
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- Qatada -
07-18-2007, 04:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
So far, we just bash on each other to finally say nothing.

Was that your intention?


I've stated right at the beginning of the thread that i never wanted no debates on whether the big bang theory is true. Try checking again if you're in doubt.


I wanted some clarification on the topic since i wanted to know whether there was any scientific research on this topic (of the crunch, expand, bang etc.) rather than it just being an idea.



Gator, thanks for your opinion. :)




Peace.
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InToTheRain
07-18-2007, 04:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by August
Does anyone else feel overwhelmed thinking about things like this? Just the thought of how incomprehensibly vast the universe is....
Indeed, The thought of what was before is overwhelming, I used to get this strange sensation with the thought that there was a time when I didn't used to exist! what could have that been like :confused:

In 51:47, Allah says,


“It is We who have raised the Heaven high with force, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it”.


Einstein admitted his mistake in 1929 when Edwin Hubble an astronomer at Caltech, made a critical discovery that the universe is expanding and showed that distant galaxies were, indeed, receding from the earth, and the further away they were, the faster they were moving. That discovery changed cosmology.

format_quote Originally Posted by August
What happened before the big bang? As a theist I'd have to say nothing. When I was an atheist, I always liked the idea about cycles (bang, expand, contract, crunch, bang), made me wonder what the other universes were like.
I too used to wonder what the other universes, other planets etc were like, but even during days when I wasn't as religious or weak in my religion I was convinced that whatever is out there will always consists of elements already shon on the periodic table.



format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
I guess, this is one of these questions, nobody will be ever able to answer !
There are answers but whether your content what you find is your choice.
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guyabano
07-18-2007, 04:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
I've stated right at the beginning of the thread that i never wanted no debates on whether the big bang theory is true. Try checking again if you're in doubt.


I wanted some clarification on the topic since i wanted to know whether there was any scientific research on this topic (of the crunch, expand, bang etc.) rather than it just being an idea.



Gator, thanks for your opinion. :)




Peace.
I apologize, if your intentions are different. I read a lot in some scientific magazines, but to be honest, this blows up my horizon of understanding.
But one thing is for sure, Universe someday will also collapse again.

I invite you to read this ! It explains the BigBang therorie rather good !

Peace
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- Qatada -
07-18-2007, 04:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
I apologize, if your intentions are different. I read a lot in some scientific magazines, but to be honest, this blows up my horizon of understanding.
But one thing is for sure, Universe someday will also collapse again.

I invite you to read this ! It explains the BigBang therorie rather good !

Peace

Thankyou.


About the Universe collapsing, i wouldn't find that surprising since this earth, and the universe will perish, and that is a sign for the establishment of the Day of Judgement. I.e. that day will occur after this. And Allaah knows best.


Thanks for the link btw.




Peace.
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ranma1/2
07-18-2007, 11:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
.... Yet they don't have no evidences for them? Is it just like a theory?

Thanks for responding.

ah ha double negatives attack.... ah ha you admit we have evidence..... ... ;)
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KAding
07-19-2007, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
The Big bang.

What happened 'before' it? (if you believe in it.) A simple answer will do please, no debates.


This thread isn't to do with whether it really happened or not, just want your opinion or view.

Thanks in advance.
I don't know.
Reply

islamirama
07-19-2007, 02:07 PM
The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition).1 This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientists now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that ‘smoke’ (see figures 10 and 11).

The illuminating stars we see at night were, just as was the whole universe, in that ‘smoke’ material. God has said in the Quran:

Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke...

(Quran, 41:11)

Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same ‘smoke,’ we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous ‘smoke,’ they formed and separated from each other. God has said in the Quran:

Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?...

(Quran, 21:30)

Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.”2 (video ). Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.”3 (video).

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-c.htm
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islamirama
07-19-2007, 02:37 PM
Expanding Universe



Once scientists understood that the universe was expanding, they immediately realized that it would have been smaller in the past. At some point in the past, the entire universe would have been a single point. This point, later called the big bang, was the beginning of the universe as we understand it today.


The expanding universe is finite in both time and space. The reason that the universe did not collapse, as Newton's and Einstein's equations said it might, is that it had been expanding from the moment of its creation. The universe is in a constant state of change. The expanding universe, a new idea based on modern physics, laid to rest the paradoxes that troubled astronomers from ancient times until the early 20th Century.


http://skyserver.sdss.org/dr1/en/ast...e/universe.asp


In the Qur'an, which was revealed 14 centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described like this:


"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven", as stated in this verse, is used in various places in the Qur'an with the meaning of space and universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning. In other words, in the Qur'an it is revealed that the universe "expands". And this is the very conclusion that science has reached today.
Universe will collapse

If the mass density of the universe were greater than the critical density, then the universe would reach a maximum size and then begin to collapse. It would become denser and hotter again, ending with a state that was similar to that in which it started—a Big Crunch.[32]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang

The Universe will shrink:

"The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfil it. (The Noble Quran, 21:104)"
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? - [Quran 55:13]
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root
07-19-2007, 05:14 PM
When it comes to the big bang I like this quote:

Am I missing something here? Isn't asking what happened before the big bang rather like asking what conditions are like 25,000 kilometres below the Earth's surface?
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- Qatada -
07-19-2007, 05:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
ah ha double negatives attack.... ah ha you admit we have evidence..... ... ;)

If you do - then bring it forward. That's exactly what i'm looking for in this thread.
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Trumble
07-19-2007, 07:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition)
I take it you say 'smoke' rather than smoke because smoke does not have "an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition"? Smoke is a cloud of fine particles suspended in a gas. Use of the 'smoke' analogy seems restricted to those who peddle Qur'anic 'science'... I wonder why? :rollseyes
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AB517
07-20-2007, 01:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
my answer is simple:
i do not know.

I am with this guy.
Thank God ... well ... that God inspired the great scientists.
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AmarFaisal
07-21-2007, 06:00 AM
And to all the above there is more to add on this link

http://islam.about.com/od/creation/a/creation.htm

abt Big Bang and Quran
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ranma1/2
07-21-2007, 10:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AB517
I am with this guy.
Thank God ... well ... that God inspired the great scientists.
huh?
I cant think of one science inspired by any of the mono theistic deities..
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zoro
07-21-2007, 08:07 PM
The Big bang.

What happened 'before' it? (if you believe in it.) A simple answer will do please, no debates.

This thread isn't to do with whether it really happened or not, just want your opinion or view.
Qatada:

Of course no one knows “What happened ‘before’ [the Big Bang]”, but what is fairly well known is that the total of all electrical charge, all momentum, and all energy in our universe (counting both the “positive energy” of mass via E = mc^2 and the “negative energy” of space or “the vacuum”) sums to exactly zero, i.e., “totally nothing”. [I show evidence for that statement at http://zenofzero.net/docs/Awareness.pdf ]

That is, although most of us are fairly well convinced that there is something here, in this universe, that conclusion seems to result from our being aware of only “the positive side of existence”, oblivious to the “negative side of existence”, better known as “space”. In reality, however, and in total, there’s nothing here – which, incidentally, suggests that the answer to the question “Why is there something, here, rather than nothing?” is that the premiss is wrong: in fact, there’s nothing here.

To me (and other physicists) that result suggests that, before the Big Bang, there was “totally nothing” (which is “something” with which not only have we no experience but also have difficulty comprehending). Nonetheless, I and others (identified in the above reference) speculate that whatever “total nothingness” is, it behaves similar to other quantum mechanical systems (in particular, that it fluctuates) and what caused the Big Bang was that some symmetry in some fluctuation in that “total nothingness” was broken (for example, a “string of energy” or a “positive-energy particle” could have precipitated, breaking the symmetry), leading to the Big Bang. To test such ideas is of course extremely difficult, but there are hopes that one aspect of string theory will be tested in the new Hadron facility at CERN, and I have speculated about the possibility of exploring “total nothingness” by looking more closely “through” the “holes in space” that are commonly called antiparticles.
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Trumble
07-22-2007, 08:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
The thing that I find disgraceful though, is that I don't think you understand the basic principles he speaks of to carry out a colloquially with any sort of dexterity. In fact I know incisively of the psychology that drives you to sit all day to find the one crevice in the net that would allow you a paragraph to contravene an opinion that doesn't suit you. I don't know why I expect, anticipate, and require so much from members when it is obvious what this all boils to, I only set myself up for disappointment... You were never about reading or maturing your thoughts to a level less linear....
"Disgraceful"? I don't think so. No, I don't have a PhD, or even a more humble degree, in molecular biology. However, I don't think it unreasonable to follow up an article that I actually found quite interesting (my actual reason for not pursuing the first was that I got bored a third of the way in) by finding out what others had to say about it. Thanks to the wonders of Google the time input isn't large. As to "you see if you have a clear mental picture of how it all works, you won't be resorting to various articles to give you leverage..."; if you had the sense of humour that I'm afraid the 'Egyptian churches' thread shows is completely absent from your personality you would realise why I find that so hysterically funny coming from you! :D Maybe a little unfair considering your last post there, though; there might be just a little hope for you after all. It's the ability to laugh at yourself when that's obviously required that's missing, I think. See, I can throw cheap armchair-psychology shots, too.

Is Richard Harter related to you, that I should accept his paragraph comment with appropriate solemnity?
Perhaps if you spent a little less time trying to show off and a little more paying attention you would have noticed that we know of at least one person who (presumably) greatly respects Harter's opinion and considers him an authority on aspects of the paper on which Melikikh is not. Respects it sufficiently, indeed, to submit the paper to him to receive that opinion - Dr Melikikh! Good enough for me... if you consider that a 'disgraceful' approach there's not a lot I can do about it. If you are able to establish where Melikikh went wrong, or indeed where Halter did in criticizing him I strongly suggest you contact the gentlemen concerned rather than waste time demonstrating your extreme cleverness to an ignoramus such as myself. I'm sure they would be delighted to hear from you. :sunny:

BTW.. back on psychology just for a moment. What do you think the choice of using "Lepidoptera" instead of "butterfly" and "Hymenoptera" instead of "bee" says about yours? Scientific terminology can be useful sometimes in making the vague precise but here you achieve the reverse. Unless you are suggesting that the great Mohammed Ali might equally have said "float like a moth, sting like an ant"! Not quite the same ring to it. Doesn't rhyme with 'Ali' for a start.

Peace to you, too.
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zoro
07-22-2007, 10:55 AM
here is a couple of PDF files to blow your 'a priori' 'pamphlet' away, and hope it keeps you busy from this board a while.. there is nothing I can stand less than preachers of any sort.. seems a little absurd to have zealot Atheist-- but I suppose wonders never cease... I rather enjoyed this account of statistical physics than yours... seemed a lot more patent and less preposterous.. peace!
Ambro:

Your post surely must confuse many readers, for example, your expression “a prior pamphlet”. It’s a meaningless string of words, chosen (I assume) in an attempt to deride but mostly for their alliteration – similar to your “patent and less preposterous”. Pleasant prattle for pedants, no doubt, but “where’s the beef?”

As for the two PDF files you reference, they have nothing to do with this thread’s topic. Why not provide us with some links to some good poetry, for example, in which the alliteration would probably be both meaningful and enjoyable?

Next is your “seems a little absurd to have [a] zealot Atheist…” On the one hand, given how much horrible damage various god ideas have done to humanity, there is nothing “absurd” about there being “zealot atheists”, e.g., the poet Shelley. And on the other hand, I’m not an atheist. If you feel the need to label people, then as I’ve told you before, in my case “scientific humanist” would be more accurate.

Then there’s your: “hope it keeps you busy from this board a while…” You hope that someone with different opinions will not express them on this board? Even when the opinions are in direct response to the question posed for this thread. That’s both confusing and interesting: on this board, are only your opinions to prevail? Even when Qatada asked for the opinions of others? Maybe you should take the matter up with Qatada – or the Board. But should you do the latter, you may first want to prepare to defend yourself against the motion that you be banned from the Board, since you so frequently violate the admonition to be “civil”.

You add, “there is nothing I can stand less than preachers of any sort.” In modern usage, the word ‘preacher’ means one who advocates certain ideas, e.g., Islam. It must be most confusing to others to have you state “there is nothing I can stand less than [Islamic] preachers…

Yet some clarity seems possible. You state – that is, in other words, you preach – that “there is nothing I can stand less than preachers of any sort”, from which it follows that there is nothing you can stand less than yourself. But actually, as understandable as that might be, I doubt if it’s good for you to hate yourself.

Further, though, and more significantly, your statement “there is nothing I can stand less than preachers of any sort” is either made poorly or is deplorable. Giving you the benefit of the doubt (that is, I assume that you recognize the people are more than some idea that they promote), then I assume that you meant to say something similar to: “I hate it when people promote ideas different from mine” or “I hate ideas that are different from mine”. But that, of course, is deplorable – even despicable.

Then, in direct conflict with the above, there’s your word “peace”. Most confusing: if you truly seek peace, then I’d recommend that you don’t hate people for their ideas, that you welcome the opinions of others, and that when you criticize their opinions, you support your arguments with more than pedantic alliterations and platitudes.

But I do thank you for the references. The first one, by Mullen, is rather thoroughly “raked over the coals” at the “Intelligent Design” promotion site (as given in your reference) ISCID, e.g., see the thread
http://www.iscid.org/boards/ubb-get_...-t-000233.html . As I mentioned above, the topic has nothing to do with this current thread, and as I’ve mentioned before to you, I have no expertise in biology, but I gather that the main criticisms of Mullen’s paper are that he assumed randomness and then, upon finding the probability for formation to be small, rather than question his assumptions, he concluded “God must of done it.” Thereby, it seems to be another “God of the gaps” argument. Instead, it would seem to be more defensible if Mullen had investigated probabilities in the case of 1) nonrandom formation of life using some crystalline structure as a template or 2) formation of life in extreme conditions (such as apparently has occurred at thermal vents in the deep ocean).

As for your second reference (which, again, has nothing to do with this thread’s topic), I see (courtesy “Trumble”) that it, also, has been severely criticized. Trumble’s point is, I think, a good one: it was the author who submitted his paper to someone whom the author considered to be an expert. All of which brings me to your ad hominem response to Trumble, to another acknowledgement of gratitude to you, and back to your use of the word ‘peace’.

You see, I was having difficulty understanding how medical doctors could have initiated the recent terrorist attacks in the U.K. But your communications have provided me with, if not a window, then at least a peephole to view your profession. Thus, and in contrast to medical researchers, it seems as if medical doctors don’t need to think for themselves: similar to computers, their memory only need be loaded (be it with anatomy or some “holy book”) and then downloaded on demand. I grant you that your profession requires being able to memorize (and recite), but it appears that critical-thinking skills aren’t essential.

Further, I then gain some insight into why more and more non-Muslims are refusing to be treated by Muslim doctors. Although your arrogant comment “no wonder only 1% of the population has their doctorate” may be correct, I find it reassuring that such a large percentage of the population has sufficient critical-thinking skills to conclude that they don’t want to be treated by Muslim doctors, even those who preach their idea of “peace”.

But while you are offering “peace”, perhaps you would care to demonstrate your sincerity. In particular, I would be grateful if you (or anyone) would assist me in the translation of two stanzas of the poem by the amazing Muslim scientist Omar Khayyam (1048 – 1123). As you no doubt know, those who have translated the Rubaiyat into English have taken “poetic license” to try to convey the poetry, but what I would be grateful to see is an exact translation into English of the following two stanzas, without taking any poetic license; that is, I want to try to get a clearer understanding of what Khayyam was trying to say.

The two stanzas of interest are the following. The first is from Edward Fitzgerald’s “translation”:

What! out of senseless Nothing to provoke
A conscious Something to resent the yoke
Of unpermitted Pleasure, under pain
Of Everlasting Penalties, if broke!
The second is from Righard Le Gallienne’s “translation”:

And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well – what matters it? Believe that too!
Thank you in advance for any help you might be able to provide.
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Abdul Fattah
07-22-2007, 12:59 PM
In mainstream science there are two views that are regarded as plausible. The first one is that nothing existed before it, not even time or empty space.
The alternative view is that the universe exists eternally, and that big bang was not the beginning of the universe, but a process that drastically changed the universe and it's composition.
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zoro
07-22-2007, 01:40 PM
In mainstream science there are two views that are regarded as plausible. The first one is that nothing existed before it, not even time or empty space.

The alternative view is that the universe exists eternally, and that [the] big bang was not the beginning of the universe, but a process that drastically changed the universe and its composition.
Abdul Fattah (aka Steve): I agree with you, of course, and yet in a way, the two views can be combined. That is, whatever “total nothingness” might be, it seems reasonable to assume that it has “always existed” (recognizing that time has no meaning without energy, and therefore, that the word “always” is indefinite, and that to say that “nothingness always existed” also strains our meaning for the word “existence”). Meanwhile, it seems clear that the Big Bang “drastically changed the universe and its composition”, even if one assumes that our universe started from “total nothingness”.
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Abdul Fattah
07-22-2007, 02:02 PM
The two views are really not compatible.
One view is: nothing existed, not even time and empty space. To say that this nothing existed forever is a contradiction in terms. Because even for nothing to exist forever, there needs to be at least time, but if even time didn't exist then there isn't a "before". That means big bang is the beginning of the line. The very notion of something (even if that something is "nothing") existing before it is then contradicting.
The second view is that there existed something -a universe- perhaps even wider as the current universe. But this universe had a different composition (mostly antimatter and a bit of matter, as compared to now where we have mostly matter and a little bit of antimatter). And that then the big bang altered the very composition of the universe and turned matter into antimatter and vice versa. In that view big bang is not the beginning at all, but just an event that cleared all records of the previous universe. You could say it was "Format C:/ "
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جوري
07-22-2007, 02:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Disgraceful"? I don't think so. No, I don't have a PhD, or even a more humble degree, in molecular biology. However, I don't think it unreasonable to follow up an article that I actually found quite interesting (my actual reason for not pursuing the first was that I got bored a third of the way in) by finding out what others had to say about it.

I will not waste my time as I did yesterday re-refuting the paragraph you posted bit by bit, because I see that my posts get deleted, but will tell you this much, you have no idea what you are looking for in a scientific article to critique it, thus I stand by my words from the post deleted--
I don't think you understand the basic principles he speaks of to carry out a colloquially with any sort of dexterity.
Thanks to the wonders of Google the time input isn't large. As to "you see if you have a clear mental picture of how it all works, you won't be resorting to various articles to give you leverage...";
Indeed I'll agree with you there... but google isn't a substitute for sound knowledge.. like going to the library and thinking you are well read because you are in the midst books.. you don't actually have an idea how they work on how to integrate them... that is all I am going to say about this - unlucky for you.. I am utterly unimpressed with what you make up along the way from Pseudo science to amiss quotes... and in fact in my deleted post pointed out clearly what is right with the paper and what is wrong with the criticism, seems your quotes of my deleted post skimmed over the parts you weren't fitted to handle...
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zoro
07-22-2007, 02:37 PM
Abdul Fattah (Steve): I see your point and agree with the distinction you make; I stand corrected. Meanwhile, of course I’m aware of the difficulty with using such words, which was the point that I was trying to make in my previous post, with all those quotation marks around “always”, “nothingness” and “existence”.

With such points accepted, I’d then ask if you would be so kind as to supply me with some references (on the web, if possible) that support the second concept. As support for the first concept (that our universe popped into existence, in the Big Bang, from total nothingness), I would offer the following (to which I’ve added some notes in square brackets)

1. Einstein: “Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, [then] wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.” [Besides his statement being a stimulating comment about the irrelevance of one’s appearance, I interpret his phrase “expanding into nothing that is something” as suggesting that he was seeing that “nothing” must be “something”.]

2. Edward P. Tryon, Nature, 1973 (vol. 248, pp. 396 – 397): “If it is true that our Universe has a zero net value for all conserved quantities, then it [our Universe] may simply be a fluctuation of the vacuum [by which I take it he means the original “zero” or “total nothingness”], the vacuum of some larger space [which stretches the meanings of the words “vacuum” and “space”] in which our Universe is imbedded. In answer to the question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our Universe is simply one of those things [that] happen from time to time.

3. Alan Guth as quoted on p. 129 of Hawking’s 1988 book on time: “As Guth has remarked, ‘It is said that there’s no such thing as a free lunch. But the universe is the ultimate free lunch’.” [I interpret Guth’s comment to mean that, originally, there was “totally nothing” – from which we gained so much – for (or more accurately, from) nothing.]
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Abdul Fattah
07-22-2007, 03:32 PM
Hi
I'm unaware of any on-line sources that explain this concept of an infinite universe and big bang being not the beginning but instead a dramatic change in structure. I rely mostly on dutch books for that. But it's mentioned briefly in this documentary: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html
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