I return

[ApostateAtheist]

I am back from a hiatus guys...Been thinking alot about islam and the fact that alot of my family hates me for finally coming to the conclusion. . .
I will and cannot turn to this faith, the only proof of this religion offered are the islamic writings, and that equates with me saying "Winnie the pooh does infact exist, I can quote A.A. Milne!!! Muhammad made the positive claim that allah was infact existant, so aside from him offering tangable proof he should also be some what discredited. . . Now if a credible scientist proved that allah did exist then i would be inclined to believe that allah does infact exist . . . But without this i will and cannot turn unto this faith that promotes intollerance and men being superior over women, including many other things. . . I ask for my brothers in the human race who are musilims. . . Research this thurougly, find out if there is any other evidence for the factuality of the quran through external sources and you may (if your lucky) come to the conclusion that this, allah character is non existant. . . Not meaning to start a riot just stating truth...

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i have researched

i have easily refuted the ignorance of people such as Ali Sina (who is extremely easy to refute btw but his big head doesnt let him see that).

The immorality prevalent without islam is disgusting, and if your reason for leaving islam is because its immoral then your morality itself is doubtful beyond comprehension.


Allah does indeed exist, he has watched you deny his existence, he has taken it into account, Now as you sin and indulge in dunya (this world) further and further and move away from Allah you will completely lose the path (if you havent lost it already). Turn back before its too late, may Allah forgive you and guide you.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ;

Now if a credible scientist proved that allah did exist then i would be inclined to believe that allah does infact exist . . . But without this i will and cannot turn unto this faith

lol scientific theories change from time to time but u have no problem with that

that promotes intollerance and men being superior over women,

it's mens must duty to take care of women .....what's the problem with that ?


My husband earns & i spend :okay: ....Allah is so merciful .....praise be to Allah only.

including many other things. . .

what are these ???

[جوري]

I was hoping no one would reply to this thread.. Every recreant wants some standing ovation and a Pulitzer ... many people drift.. some become, religious or irreligious without the thunderous import.. what is he hoping for applause?
Congratulations on your choice dear sir.. if I were you I'd not waste time on a forum.. life is too short and you'd need to eat it up... you could possibly choke on your dinner today or have an Idiopathic hypertrophic subaortic stenosis (IHSS) and drop dead in 30 seconds.. would be a shame if all you did was rant on a forum one minute and became plant fertilizer the next...
from my heart I want you to enjoy life.. don't waste your time here!

peace!

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[ApostateAtheist]

1i have researched

Ok, so whats the proof then...Easier said than really done.

2i have easily refuted the ignorance of people such as Ali Sina (who is extremely easy to refute btw but his big head doesnt let him see that).

Thats reasonable if i knew who that was. . .

3The immorality prevalent without islam is disgusting, and if your reason for leaving islam is because its immoral then your morality itself is doubtful beyond comprehension.

Food for thought

MODERATOR'S COMMENT - Please do not mock the Qur'an or use distorted translations.

Allah does indeed exist,

Proof please?

[جوري]

How do you prove that someone has a headache when they go to the Emergency room with what they perceive as a very painful headache? how do you even measure its intensity by scientific means?

[Muezzin]

Seriously, if you dislike Islam, why are you here?

If you dislike organised religions and preaching, then why are you here 'preaching' your version of the truth?

I am not saying you have no right to be here or some such nonsense, I'm just genuinely curious.

Oh, and faith by its very nature must transcend logic.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

ApostateAtheist now it sounds like you are demanding God.

Who are you to try and demand what you want YOUR God to be like. God is who he is, and he is most compassionate most merciful, when a mind is filled with sin it will find it hard to comprehend.


The proof is in everything, if you cant see it then research, may Allah guide you

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Seriously, if you dislike Islam, why are you here?

If you dislike organised religions and preaching, then why are you here 'preaching' your version of the truth?

I am not saying you have no right to be here or some such nonsense, I'm just genuinely curious.

Oh, and faith by its very nature must transcend logic.

nice, lets close this thread eh super doc :)

[...]

Proof please?

Just like the proof that a camel has existed is its droppings, and when there are footprints we know a man has passed... The same way the proof of Allah's existence is his creation

[ApostateAtheist]

because I hate to see my fellow humans fall into the complete blindness of worshiping this, malevolent,homophobic, exclusive, evil, mean, bully that along with yahweh does not exist. . . You may ask why is this a problem....

Well because, when people think that there is a life after this one, they tend to not make the most of this life and address problems facing society, and even more when they base their morality on such a horrible character they tend to be very irrational, because it makes to sense to blindly follow the rules of a god, with no question of its validity..than kyou

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Just like the proof that a camel has existed is its droppings, and when there are footprints we know a man has passed... The same way the proof of Allah's existence is his creation

that only works on people who reflect sis

this guys made up his mind to worship what ever fits his desire.




his proof would be to bring a man who can chop of his head and then bring him back to life, get it?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Well because, when people think that there is a life after this one, they tend to not make the most of this life and address problems facing society, and even more when they base their morality on such a horrible character they tend to be very irrational, because it makes to sense to blindly follow the rules of a god, with no question of its validity..than kyou

its validity is beyond proof, if you can look at the sky and cant describe how its held there and if you can look at the stars and cant explain what was before the first star then you should look to a creator.


Everything is finite except for the one who began, that should be enough proof. Your time, ur existence, your creation, everything is finite! EXCEPT for the one who initiated everything.



get it now ?

[Muezzin]

because I hate to see my fellow humans fall into the complete blindness of worshiping this, malevolent,homophobic, exclusive, evil, mean, bully that along with yahweh does not exist. . . You may ask why is this a problem....

Well because, when people think that there is a life after this one, they tend to not make the most of this life and address problems facing society, and even more when they base their morality on such a horrible character they tend to be very irrational, because it makes to sense to blindly follow the rules of a god, with no question of its validity..than kyou

Apart from the fact that Allah, G-d, Yahweh, Rama or whatever you want to call a higher power tends to tell humanity to treat their fellow men and women with kindness and respect. Even the 'homophobic' stuff fails somewhat, since for the punishments you are implying to take effect, the people have to be 'caught in the act' as it were, and we're not supposed to watch stuff like that in the first place.

I don't get it. You could get an athiest and a Christian dude, and both are really nice, respectful and kind to everyone they meet. But today, it's hip to say only the athiest dude deserves any respect in return, simply because the other guy believes in G-d. I mean, sure, people might say, 'Yeah, I like that Christian dude', but they'd back it up with some sort of negative swipe like 'but his way of life sucks monkey balls!', whereas they wouldn't do the same for the athiest dude.

I prefer to judge people by their actions than their beliefs. They could believe that the world was made with a blob of snot for all I care, but as long as they're nice and respectful to me and others, I see no reason to knock their belief, regardless of how blind it appears to me.

[Keltoi]

Science and God are not incompatible. Many scientists do believe in God. I think sometimes we work with the assumption that all scientists are athiests, which is not true at all.

As W. Mark Richardson of the Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences says, "Science may not serve as an eyewitness of God the creator, but it can serve as a character witness."

Although the very rationality of science often feels like an enemy of the spiritual, here, too, a new reading can sustain rather than snuff out belief. Ever since Isaac Newton, science has blared a clear message: the world follows rules, rules that are fundamentally mathematical, rules that humans can figure out. Humans invent abstract mathematics, basically making it up out of their imaginations, yet math magically turns out to describe the world. Greek mathematicians divided the circumference of a circle by its diameter, for example, and got the number pi, 3.14159... . Pi turns up in equations that describe subatomic particles, light and other quantities that have no obvious connections to circles.


This points, says Polkinghorne, "to a very deep fact about the nature of the universe," namely, that our minds, which invent mathematics, conform to the reality of the cosmos. We are somehow tuned in to its truths. Since pure thought can penetrate the universe's mysteries, "this seems to be telling us that something about human consciousness is harmonious with the mind of God," says Carl Feit, a cancer biologist at Yeshiva University in New York and Talmudic scholar.

I found those paragraphs in this fairly interesting article.

http://home.houston.rr.com/apologia/scfndgod.htm

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Hi,

But without this i will and cannot turn unto this faith that promotes intollerance and men being superior over women.

If you're interested, here is a refutation of the part in bold:

Perfect Justice In Islam: Debunking the male bias myth in islam

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[...]

because I hate to see my fellow humans fall into the complete blindness of worshiping this, malevolent,homophobic, exclusive, evil, mean, bully that along with yahweh does not exist. . . You may ask why is this a problem....

Well because, when people think that there is a life after this one, they tend to not make the most of this life and address problems facing society, and even more when they base their morality on such a horrible character they tend to be very irrational, because it makes to sense to blindly follow the rules of a god, with no question of its validity..than kyou

Oh so that's your opinion of peace? Islam teaches you manners and how to be good to people and respect... It teaches us to how to forgive people and how to improve our characters. So this is now called bullying is it?

If your trying to call us away from what we know is a perfect way of life then this isn't the place for you coz it's not gonna work :)

[doorster]

Seriously, if you dislike Islam, why are you here?

From my experience at other Islamic forums, It is not unusual for copts and other miscreants to join up and claim that they are former Muslims who have seen the "light"

It is one of the best methods to discredit something, when you can convince the "not too bright" that once you were like them.

that is why it is wise to delete them after their first few posts. Br. Woodrow was correct in wanting to do just that with this liar but has vanished himself for some reason.

another (new) mod told me off for saying things like this about these people saying:

"insinuating someone is not muslim is not proper adaab".

[ApostateAtheist]

Oh so that's your opinion of peace? Islam teaches you manners and how to be good to people and respect... It teaches us to how to forgive people and how to improve our characters. So this is now called bullying is it?

If your trying to call us away from what we know is a perfect way of life then this isn't the place for you coz it's not gonna work :)

The sad thing about beleivers of religion is normally this....and this will reveal it to me...this question. . .

If you found out that this religion was untrue would you still follow it. . .

a likely answer will be

"Yes, it gives me joy and i know that the things in here are true because it is true and god does exist" (Dodging of the question)

Another would be

No, I would stop believing in it and go about my business"
(a rational view)

And then we have the two classics....

1."There is no possibility that this is wrong because it states it in the quran.. . .(circular argument...you fail)

2. I pray that you will find allah before the day of judgement, think about your future life, you could spend eternity in hell. . .
(why would i want to "find" a god who threatens me with eternal tourture if i dont be his best friend. . . umm no fail...

[...]

1."There is no possibility that this is wrong because it states it in the quran.. . .(circular argument...you fail)

Nah acutally there is no possibilty that this is wrong because we have the proof. We are a living proof of the existence of God, and we have all the miracles of the Quran

why would i want to "find" a god who threatens me with eternal tourture if i dont be his best friend

you sound like a kid, Allah doesn't need us, and neither does Islam but we need Him
And i think your missing a vital point- Allah is the Most Merciful, but also the Most Just... So if some person has been evil all his life and has hurt others then doesn't he deserved to be punished? And to scale it down, does that mean i can wack you on the head and get away with it?

[ApostateAtheist]

And to scale it down, does that mean i can wack you on the head and get away with it?

Heh,

No, if you whack me on the head you should be punished, but the punishment must match the crime, if you hit me on the head, you should be properly fined and if a repeated offense you should be jailed, but not for the rest of your life


If you like to go out and rape children, tourture them with acid and then bury them alive. . . And you do this numerous times throughout your life and you die. . Lets say you lived for eighty five years, and now contemplate an eternity, eternally cooking for crimes that are VERY BAD AND HORRIBLE. . . .
But do they warrant an ETERNAL punishment with NO END EVER? ? ?

No, not at all, unless you equate the breaking of a gods law with an eternal sin, but then you would have to justifiy that through reason,


Whats even worse is, An atheist living his whole life rejecting and refuting allahs existance, . . . and then he dies and allah sends him to hell. . .


Two problems with that....

First Allah would have to properly let him know that rejecting his existance would result in this crime, and it wouldent be fair if the only evidence he had was a book that i have no reason to think its not just another comic book of myths....So a sentence to eternal fire would be unjust and unfair because the nature of the crime doesent warrant it. . .


Second is, EVEN IF HE DID PROVIDE THE ATHEIST WITH COMPLETE PROOF THAT HE WAS GOD!!!!!.....It would not be right to send him to hell forever just for thinking otherwise, because that would show the supreme insecurity on the part of allah and would ultimatly prove him incompetent. . .


So as a conclusion . .. Yes you should be punished for hitting me, but death is not the proper punishment

So from your view, A life of sin = ETERNAL :skeleton:

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Hi,

If you like to go out and rape children, tourture them with acid and then bury them alive. . . And you do this numerous times throughout your life and you die. . Lets say you lived for eighty five years, and now contemplate an eternity, eternally cooking for crimes that are VERY BAD AND HORRIBLE. . . .
But do they warrant an ETERNAL punishment with NO END EVER? ? ?

Well, this demonstrates your lack of knowledge about Islam. The people of tawheed do not remain in Hellfire eternally. Their sins are either forgiven, or they are cleansed of their sins in the fire for a limited time.

Allah says in the Qur'an;

“Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgives anything less, to whom He pleases; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.”

[An-Nisa 4:48]

The sin of kufr and major nifaaq are both equal to shirk as they remove a person from the realm of Islam.

Whats even worse is, An atheist living his whole life rejecting and refuting allahs existance, . . . and then he dies and allah sends him to hell. . .


Two problems with that....

First Allah would have to properly let him know that rejecting his existance would result in this crime, and it wouldent be fair if the only evidence he had was a book that i have no reason to think its not just another comic book of myths....So a sentence to eternal fire would be unjust and unfair because the nature of the crime doesent warrant it. . .


Second is, EVEN IF HE DID PROVIDE THE ATHEIST WITH COMPLETE PROOF THAT HE WAS GOD!!!!!.....It would not be right to send him to hell forever just for thinking otherwise, because that would show the supreme insecurity on the part of allah and would ultimatly prove him incompetent. . .

According to your inferior and limited logic, this is worse. But a sin against God is worse than a sin against Mankind. But how is anyone supposed to make you understand the rulings of a God in whom you do not believe?

[جوري]

I pray that you will find allah before the day of judgement, think about your future life, you could spend eternity in hell. . .
(why would i want to "find" a god who threatens me with eternal tourture if i dont be his best friend. . . umm no fail...

I am actually rather happy you have made your choice..
the fact that you come here to purge yourself is a slight clue that you are not particularly happy with your choice as much as you'd like us to believe, thus you would rather take some people along for the ride not to feel so marginalized ( this is the wrong place to seek approval) in fact there is a RichardDawkings forum out there where you'd probably feel right at home... rather than challenge us with very immature queries and responses based on a priori judgment!
I have already used the analogy that most of us know what a headache is, because we have experienced it at some point or another in our life, yet no scientific measure can be used to identify what a headache is. We use man made basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated to distinguish between a cluster headache, from a migraine from a tension headache etc ( the patient replies of the intensity by using a subjective scale of (1 to 10) to describe the level of pain one being least severe, 10 being most severe.. there is NO headache-O-Meter.. yet no one can deny that a headache exists and that people experience it.
2- You assume that your brilliant mind has done the thinking for the whole and thus none of us need to tread further on the grounds, that you've gone where no wo/man has gone before and done all the reasoning for the rest of us.. You've concluded there is no G-D, and by default we should all accept your shallow reasoning of why he doesn't exist...
It doesn't work out that way, and rather than waste a large chunk of my day proving or disproving your theories, I say.. sincerely (don't waste your short life on a forum) -- just eat life up... there is much to do when the world is your oyster...

peace!

[...]

No, not at all, unless you equate the breaking of a gods law with an eternal sin, but then you would have to justifiy that through reason

I repeat: We are a living proof of the existence of God

Did you get it this time? :)

First Allah would have to properly let him know that rejecting his existance would result in this crime, and it wouldent be fair if the only evidence he had was a book that i have no reason to think its not just another comic book of myths....So a sentence to eternal fire would be unjust and unfair because the nature of the crime doesent warrant it. . .

Can i ask you a question? Have you ever even read the Quran...? Didn't think so.. And i don't believe you're really an appostate :rollseyes

Ever heard of the miracles of the Quran? Well there's a first time for everything: http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_01.php

Second is, EVEN IF HE DID PROVIDE THE ATHEIST WITH COMPLETE PROOF THAT HE WAS GOD!!!!!.....It would not be right to send him to hell forever just for thinking otherwise, because that would show the supreme insecurity on the part of allah and would ultimatly prove him incompetent. . .

Really? If Allah created you then surely He should have a right to do what He likes with you...? So are you now more superior than your creator to decide what's right and what's wrong?

If you're mind is shut off then i don't think there is any point in having this debate... It's like trying to pour water into an upside-down glass.. :rollseyes

[eyeofthestorm]

lol reminds me of that story, you know (slap) you felt the pain you did not see it metaphor for Allah is der you cant see Him.

[tomtomsmom]

Heh,



If you like to go out and rape children, tourture them with acid and then bury them alive. . . And you do this numerous times throughout your life and you die. . Lets say you lived for eighty five years, and now contemplate an eternity, eternally cooking for crimes that are VERY BAD AND HORRIBLE. . . .
But do they warrant an ETERNAL punishment with NO END EVER? ? ?

How about someone do that to your child and see if you think it is warranted???
As a mother I can say HECK YEAH!!!!!!! And if we are all supposed to be creations of God just as we create our children then doesn't that warrant punishment from him??