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Uthman
07-21-2007, 03:08 PM
Free speech is now the rallying cry of escalating tensions, but we can also use it to expose double standards on both sides

Karen Armstrong

Saturday July 21, 2007
Guardian

In the 17th century, when some Iranian mullahs were trying to limit freedom of expression, Mulla Sadra, the great mystical philosopher of Isfahan, insisted that all Muslims were perfectly capable of thinking for themselves and that any religiosity based on intellectual repression and inquisitorial coercion was "polluted". Mulla Sadra exerted a profound influence on generations of Iranians, but it is ironic that his most famous disciple was probably Ayatollah Khomeini, author of the fatwa against Salman Rushdie.This type of contradiction is becoming increasingly frequent in our polarised world, as I discovered last month, when I arrived in Kuala Lumpur to find that the Malaysian government had banned three of my books as "incompatible with peace and social harmony". This was surprising because the government had invited me to Malaysia, and sponsored two of my public lectures. Their position was absurd, because it is impossible to exert this type of censorship in the electronic age. In fact, my books seemed so popular in Malaysia that I found myself wondering if the veto was part of a Machiavellian plot to entice the public to read them.

Old habits die hard. In a pre-modern economy, insufficient resources meant freedom of speech was a luxury few governments could afford, since any project that required too much capital outlay was usually shelved. To encourage a critical habit of mind that habitually called existing institutions into question in the hope of reform could lead to a frustration that jeopardised social order. It is only 50 years since Malaysia achieved independence and, although the public and press campaign vigorously against censorship, in other circles the old caution is alive and well.

In the west, however, liberty of expression proved essential to the economy; it has become a sacred value in our secular world, regarded as so precious and crucial to our identity that it is non-negotiable. Modern society could not function without independent and innovative thought, which has come to symbolise the inviolable sanctity of the individual. But culture is always contested, and precisely because it is so central to modernity, free speech is embroiled in the bumpy process whereby groups at different stages of modernisation learn to accommodate one another.

It has also, as we have been reminded recently, become a rallying cry in the escalating tension between the Islamic world and the west. Muslim protests against Rushdie's knighthood have recalled the painful controversy of The Satanic Verses, and last week four British Muslims were sentenced to a total of 22 years in prison for inciting hatred while demonstrating against the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.

It would, however, be a mistake to imagine that Muslims are irretrievably opposed to free speech. Gallup conducted a poll in 10 Muslim countries (including Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia) and found that the vast majority of respondents admired western "liberty and freedom and being open-minded with each other". They were particularly enthusiastic about our unrestricted press, liberty of worship and freedom of assembly. The only western achievement that they respected more than our political liberty was our modern technology.

Then why the book burnings and fatwas? In the past Islamic governments were as prone to intellectual coercion as any pre-modern rulers, but when Muslims were powerful and felt confident they were able to take criticism in their stride. But media and literary assaults have become more problematic at a time of extreme political vulnerability in the Islamic world, and to an alienated minority they seem inseparable from Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo Bay and the unfolding tragedy of Iraq.

On both sides, however, there are double standards and the kind of contradiction evident in Khomeini's violation of the essential principles of his mentor, Mulla Sadra. For Muslims to protest against the Danish cartoonists' depiction of the prophet as a terrorist, while carrying placards that threatened another 7/7 atrocity on London, represented a nihilistic failure of integrity.

But equally the cartoonists and their publishers, who seemed impervious to Muslim sensibilities, failed to live up to their own liberal values, since the principle of free speech implies respect for the opinions of others. Islamophobia should be as unacceptable as any other form of prejudice. When 255,000 members of the so-called "Christian community" signed a petition to prevent the building of a large mosque in Abbey Mills, east London, they sent a grim message to the Muslim world: western freedom of worship did not, apparently, apply to Islam. There were similar protests by some in the Jewish community, who, as Seth Freedman pointed out in his Commentisfree piece, should be the first to protest against discrimination.

Gallup found there was as yet no blind hatred of the west in Muslim countries; only 8% of respondents condoned the 9/11 atrocities. But this could change if the extremists persuade the young that the west is bent on the destruction of their religion. When Gallup asked what the west could do to improve relations, most Muslims replied unhesitatingly that western countries must show greater respect for Islam, placing this ahead of economic aid and non-interference in their domestic affairs. Our inability to tolerate Islam not only contradicts our western values; it could also become a major security risk.

Karen Armstrong is the author of The Battle For God: A History of Fundamentalism

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...131444,00.html
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Uthman
07-24-2007, 07:42 PM

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wilberhum
07-24-2007, 07:59 PM
only 8% of respondents condoned the 9/11 atrocities
Only? 8% support for terrorism and killing the inocent.

IMHO That is horrable.
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sojourner
07-24-2007, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Only? 8% support for terrorism and killing the inocent.

IMHO That is horrable.
I concur...:cry:
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Uthman
07-24-2007, 08:23 PM
:sl:

And me.

1% is 1% too many.

It truly is a sad world we live in. :(

:w:
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beespreeteam
07-25-2007, 02:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Only? 8% support for terrorism and killing the inocent.

IMHO That is horrable.
It's ridiculous, yes, but you need to realise that these people have probably got family back in countries that are being screwed over by America, and therefore see it as revenge or an eye-for-an-eye kind of thing.

I know a few people like that. Like my friend who's best friend was shot 'mistakenly'. He's changed a lot...
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wilberhum
07-25-2007, 03:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by beespreeteam
It's ridiculous, yes, but you need to realise that these people have probably got family back in countries that are being screwed over by America, and therefore see it as revenge or an eye-for-an-eye kind of thing.

I know a few people like that. Like my friend who's best friend was shot 'mistakenly'. He's changed a lot...
Ridiculous? Thinking it is OK to kill people because of where they live is not ridiculous.
It is blind hate. :mad:
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Muezzin
07-25-2007, 03:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Ridiculous? Thinking it is OK to kill people because of where they live is not ridiculous.
It is blind hate. :mad:
Didn't you support the Hiroshima bombing? A lot of innocent people died there, but I guess 'that's different because there was no other way'. Feh. This 8% tends to feel the same way. Is it right? No. Is it a human reaction? Yes.

To clarify where I stand: People should not wish death upon others who have done nothing to them. People should not wish death on civilians.
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- Qatada -
07-25-2007, 03:56 PM
:salamext:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6275772.stm
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wilberhum
07-25-2007, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Didn't you support the Hiroshima bombing? A lot of innocent people died there, but I guess 'that's different because there was no other way'. Feh. This 8% tends to feel the same way. Is it right? No. Is it a human reaction? Yes.

To clarify where I stand: People should not wish death upon others who have done nothing to them. People should not wish death on civilians.
There is as much simularity as a fish and a bicycle.
I could call rape "A human reaction" so no one should get upset about that eather. Right?
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Muezzin
07-25-2007, 04:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
There is as much simularity as a fish and a bicycle.
Sure.

I could call rape "A human reaction" so no one should get upset about that eather. Right?
That's not what I was saying. You don't usually deal in distortions. I quite clearly said where I stand, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. It's an unpleasant truth about that 8% (to which I do not belong, by the way, calling for or condoning the death of innocent people is monstrous)
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Keltoi
07-25-2007, 05:06 PM
The West has been "tolerating" Islam for a long time. That is why so many Muslims live here. What the West cannot and should not tolerate is a population of dangerous extremists, regardless of the percentage and regardless of what faith they belong to. Sure, this is a tough time for Muslims in the West, but realistically there is no way to avoid that. There is a cloud of suspicion over the Muslim community. I wish there wasn't, but it is now a reality. The extremists have done a good job at casting suspicion over the whole Muslim population by recruiting teachers and doctors to carry out attacks. The old profile of the young ostracized Muslim male no longer works, it could be anybody. It's a sad state of affairs.
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Cognescenti
07-25-2007, 05:46 PM
The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings are absolutely not analogous to the deliberate targeting of civilians in acts of terror. Both cities had legitimate military targets. You can argue, perhaps, that the harm to civilian population was too high, but it did end a declared war of terrible brutality and suffering for hundreds of millions of people.
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Muezzin
07-25-2007, 06:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
The West has been "tolerating" Islam for a long time. That is why so many Muslims live here. What the West cannot and should not tolerate is a population of dangerous extremists, regardless of the percentage and regardless of what faith they belong to. Sure, this is a tough time for Muslims in the West, but realistically there is no way to avoid that. There is a cloud of suspicion over the Muslim community. I wish there wasn't, but it is now a reality. The extremists have done a good job at casting suspicion over the whole Muslim population by recruiting teachers and doctors to carry out attacks. The old profile of the young ostracized Muslim male no longer works, it could be anybody. It's a sad state of affairs.
I agree.

Nontheless, that 8%, even though 8% way too many, do feel, rightly or wrongly, that they are ostracised, and that their pleas fall on deaf ears.

format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings are absolutely not analogous to the deliberate targeting of civilians in acts of terror. Both cities had legitimate military targets.
Okay. I just detest the concept of 'collateral damage'.

You can argue, perhaps, that the harm to civilian population was too high, but it did end a declared war of terrible brutality and suffering for hundreds of millions of people.
Hindsight's great like that.

But I'm going off-topic here. I shouldn't even have brought Hiroshima up. My bad.
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wilberhum
07-25-2007, 06:53 PM
When 255,000 members of the so-called "Christian community" signed a petition to prevent the building of a large mosque in Abbey Mills, east London, they sent a grim message to the Muslim world: western freedom of worship did not, apparently, apply to Islam.
I just love junk like this. :confused:
Surly those “co-called Christians” were only Christians and made there decision based on faith and a thousand fold increases in traffic would have nothing to do with it. :hiding: I’m also sure the hundreds of other factors played no part either. :thumbs_do
And of course since Muslims don’t have the right to build any size mosque any were they want, they don’t have freedom of worship.
That is soooooooooooooo narrow minded that I can’t even think that thin. :offended:
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Amadeus85
07-25-2007, 06:53 PM
Bernard Lewis said that integration of muslims into western , democratic society isn't possible.
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Amadeus85
07-25-2007, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Islamophobia should be as unacceptable as any other form of prejudice. When 255,000 members of the so-called "Christian community" signed a petition to prevent the building of a large mosque in Abbey Mills, east London, they sent a grim message to the Muslim world: western freedom of worship did not, apparently, apply to Islam.
Armstrong is a muslims. She would have right to say like that only when christians had free rights to build churches everywhere in muslim world.But they dont. So mrs Armstrong doesnt have right to say like that.

BTW islamophobia is a stupid term. What it means actually? Is criticizing islam on theological way also an islamophobia? I dont like any penalizing of free speech. Its like penalizing saying negative opinions about homosexualism.
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Uthman
07-25-2007, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Armstrong is a muslims. She would have right to say like that only when christians had free rights to build churches everywhere in muslim world.But they dont. So mrs Armstrong doesnt have right to say like that.
She has the right to say that if the country in question promotes freedom of worship.
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wilberhum
07-25-2007, 07:08 PM
She would have right to say like that only when christians had free rights to build churches everywhere in muslim world
Wrong! She has a right to say what she thinks. Her rights are not dependant on what other governments do.
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Amadeus85
07-25-2007, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Wrong! She has a right to say what she thinks. Her rights are not dependant on what other governments do.
Yeah sure but isnt this a big hypocrisy from her? I know that it may be getting boring for some of you, but she cried out because muslims couldnt build a huge mosque for thousands of people in England for some reasons,but (and this is this issue mentioned over and over again,boring huh?) building a new church in Egypt for example (or repairing the old one) is extremely hard because of the state's difficulties.
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wilberhum
07-25-2007, 07:17 PM
Yeah sure but isnt this a big hypocrisy from her?
Not as long as she is not running those governments.
I don't want us to follow there lead in personal freedoms.
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beespreeteam
07-25-2007, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Ridiculous? Thinking it is OK to kill people because of where they live is not ridiculous.
It is blind hate. :mad:
lol... that's exactly what it is.

and it comes from being screwed over. like your whole country being under a state of war for 5+ and then not even finding any 'wmd's', but the oil flows freely...
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Keltoi
07-25-2007, 11:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by beespreeteam
lol... that's exactly what it is.

and it comes from being screwed over. like your whole country being under a state of war for 5+ and then not even finding any 'wmd's', but the oil flows freely...
If you actually researched the subject of oil you will find the U.S. isn't getting a drop of it. The Iraqi government is in control of oil revenues, which is why you don't hear much about U.S. economic aid packages for the Iraqi government, they don't have alot of need for it. In fact, one of the political benchmarks for the Iraqi government is sharing the oil wealth with the people of Iraq.
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wilberhum
07-25-2007, 11:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by beespreeteam
lol... that's exactly what it is.

and it comes from being screwed over. like your whole country being under a state of war for 5+ and then not even finding any 'wmd's', but the oil flows freely...
When was Great Britten screwed over and under war for 5+. :(
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Keltoi
07-25-2007, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
When was Great Britten screwed over and under war for 5+. :(
I think that was 1945...the Blitzkrieg.
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wilberhum
07-25-2007, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I think that was 1945...the Blitzkrieg.
Right. You win the prize. (a sick of gum)
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Uthman
07-26-2007, 08:03 AM
I think he meant a stick. A stick of gum that is.

I hope so anyway. :X
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beespreeteam
07-26-2007, 09:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
If you actually researched the subject of oil you will find the U.S. isn't getting a drop of it. The Iraqi government is in control of oil revenues, which is why you don't hear much about U.S. economic aid packages for the Iraqi government, they don't have alot of need for it. In fact, one of the political benchmarks for the Iraqi government is sharing the oil wealth with the people of Iraq.
Possible. I guess a lot of people are misguided about the war then. Must be to really liberate the people. Once they get some power and water, that is.

Oh, and I know Bush's uncle has, so far, got 6 million (or is it billion) dollars from military sales ;D Genius!
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beespreeteam
07-26-2007, 09:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
When was Great Britten screwed over and under war for 5+. :(
That was a world war... They didn't feel like the entire rest of the world, or the 'east' or the 'west' was ganging up on them.

And ahh yeah, if you look at Kamakaze Pilots etc...
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KAding
07-26-2007, 01:32 PM
For once I largely agree with Karen Armstrong! Of course it is a national security risk to upset Muslims. However, censorship is not a realistic option in this matter, so we'll have to think of something else.

This problem is obviously related to the rise of modern communication. All of a sudden the masses are made aware of the fact that people outside of their societies have completely different beliefs. Of course we knew this already before the advent of TV and the Internet, but only at an intellectual level. We were not confronted with it. So this guy in Pakistan, who was raised in a society where blasphemy is one of the greatest sins, comes into contact with cartoons in a Danish newspaper. This going upset him. Just like the position of women in some traditional societies in the Muslim world will upset some Westerners.

Expecting that others, who have different beliefs, will keep their mouth shut or change their customs to please your beliefs is bound to lead to disappointment. It just isn't realistic, and quite frankly, it is largely unworkable. Firstly, it would require some kind of censorship, which is a dangerous practice. Secondly, it will mean people will have to stop saying what they think, which will only add to the confusion. Thirdly, someone is likely to be upset about a certain opinion anyhow. How far should this go? Should Muslims quit saying there is only one God because this offends polytheists? Is saying Jesus is God blasphemous? Where to draw the line? And more importantly, who will draw that line? The hard-liners? Those who are easily upset? Are we going to reward people who get all upset about what others say or do? Thats like giving in to terrorism people! Should a Jew stop saying Jesus was a fraud because some Christian finds the thought offensive? Most certainly not!

Such an approach won't work. Armstrong talks about tolerance, but IMHO she seems to misinterpret the concept. Tolerance isn't about changing your own behavior to not upset others, its about allowing others to behave as they do without getting upset and demanding they stop. Tolerance requires passivity, it means not acting and leaving others do as they do even if you disagree with it. So rather than changing our behavior to stop upsetting others, other should stop being upset. We in the West should stop being upset that some women in the East are wearing burqas and set up Islamic states that run contrary to our own democratic values. Tolerance means leaving it up to Muslims to decide what laws they want to live by. Similarly, those in the Muslim world should stop being upset about Western writers or cartoonist that are being blasphemous. These are not Muslims and they aren't living in Muslim societies. Tolerance means that Muslims should stop demanding we silence them.

The problem remains though. How do we get people to be tolerant in such a way? Well, I'm optimistic that this will happen automatically. Maybe these tensions are just growing pains of modernity. Societies have been inward looking for so long, since the technological means simply didn't exist to truly be in contact with other societies. However, that has changed. Now we are continuously exposed to the opinions of 'the others', thanks to the through traditional media but especially the internet. This is bound to have consequences. IMHO it has the same effect as 'exposure therapy', in that human emotions of fear, shock and outrage are numbed if they exposed to a certain phenomenon often enough. Imagine you are afraid of spiders. When you are put in a room with dozens of big hairy spiders you will be scared to death. You'll start in a state of panic trying to squash a couple of them. Maybe you manage to kill a few of them but eventually you'll get exhausted and go sit in a corner crying. You will be anxious and upset for a little while longer, but eventually you'll start to ignore them and try to function normally. IMHO this works for pretty much any shocking and scaring opinion as well. Say something extremely blasphemous to a traditional Muslim in the tribal areas of say, Pakistan, and he might want to hang you from the nearest lamppost the first time. After having heard the kafir blaspheme for the hundred time he might just shrug and continue whatever he was doing. We'll have effectively reached a point where one guy is tolerating the other. Eventually, the reflex of 'shrugging' when 'the others' say something shocking will be internalized and become part of a societies culture. Of course he won't have respect for the blasphemer, but that won't matter. Respect isn't a requirement for peaceful coexistence anyway. Maybe after a few centuries of upsetting each other we'll be less likely to be at each others throats. To use the spider comparison again, we've only just been put in the room with the spiders, aka starting living in an interconnected world. Sure it is upsetting, but we'll get over it!

Right, so thats my theory. What you should have learned from it is that insulting others is a good thing :exhausted :D.
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wilberhum
07-26-2007, 04:14 PM
Well done. Few could have done better. :thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up
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alcurad
07-26-2007, 05:09 PM
seconds that^
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Uthman
08-15-2007, 02:32 PM
Great post by KAding. I agree totally! :)
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KAding
08-15-2007, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Great post by KAding. I agree totally! :)
Better late than never! :enough!: :D
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