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JAG
07-23-2007, 04:38 AM
Hey guys, first off I will go ahead and tell you I am a Christian. Then i will go ahead and tell you that I know next to nothing about Islam, so please excuse my ignorance.

I am very interested in two things really.

1) What are the major differences between Christianity and Islam

2) Does the Quran (Koran) mention Jesus in it, and if so can you give me some passages where He is?

I appreciate this a lot, i've been meaning to get some knowledge about Islam for a while now and I'm glad i found this site.

-James
Reply

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- Qatada -
07-23-2007, 02:09 PM
Hey JAG.


Thanks for your interest in Islaam, and your sincerety in wanting to learn.


I think i'll link you to some sites which may answer your questions in detail;


http://beconvinced.com

The Story of Jesus, Son of Mary
http://www.islamonline.net/english/i...rticle03.shtml



Hope you benefit from them insha Allaah (God willing), they will describe the Islamic perspective on the honorable servant and Messenger of God, Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him), and they will also discuss the similarities between Islaam and Christianity, and maybe even why they are so similar.



Once you've checked them out, please don't hesitate to ask if you ever have any questions! :)





Peace.
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
07-23-2007, 04:06 PM
Hi

2) Does the Quran (Koran) mention Jesus in it, and if so can you give me some passages where He is?
There is a whole chapter in the Qur’an dedicated to Mary (Maryam) and Jesus (‘Isa). That chapter is called Maryam.

http://www.tafsir.com/Default.asp
Reply

Muslim Woman
07-23-2007, 04:28 PM
Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of God Almighty be upon you)

%%%%%


format_quote Originally Posted by JAG

1) What are the major differences between Christianity and Islam
Christians believe Jesus (p) is God and Holy Spirit is also God . Muslim believe Jesus (p) is a blessed Prophet of God Almighty & Holy Spirit (p ) is an angel.

We respect them but don't worship them. We don't associate partner with God. In Islam ,it's the most major sin.....result is eternal
hell fire:omg:



2)
Does the Quran (Koran) mention Jesus in it,

yap .....many times. Do u know Quran has a chpater titled Mary (p) ? We respect her a
lot :sunny:


and if so can you give me some passages where He is?

ok , wait pl. ...need to do a google search
Reply

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Muslim Woman
07-23-2007, 04:36 PM
salaam/peace;


The Koran
27 matches.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Cow



[2.87] And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent apostles after him one after another;


and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What!


whenever then an apostle came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.





[2.136] Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.



[2.253] We have made some of these apostles to excel the others among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank; and We gave clear miracles to Isa son of Marium, and strengthened him with the holy spirit. And if Allah had pleased, those after them would not have fought one with another after clear arguments had come to them, but they disagreed; so there were some of them who believed and others who denied; and if Allah had pleased they would not have fought one with another, but Allah brings about what He intends.
The Family of Imran



[3.45] When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).



[3.52] But when Isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said Who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the way) of Allah: We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones.
[3.55] And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.




[3.59] Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.
[3.84] Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
The Women
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.




[4.159] And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.
[4.163] Surely We have revealed to you as We revealed to Nuh, and the prophets after him, and We revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and Isa and Ayub and Yunus and Haroun and Sulaiman and We gave to Dawood
[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
The Dinner Table



[5.46] And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).
[5.78] Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and Isa, son of Marium; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.



[5.110] When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.




[5.112] When the disciples said: O Isa son of Marium! will your Lord consent to send down to us food from heaven? He said: Be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers.
[5.114] Isa the son of Marium said: O Allah, our Lord! send i down to us food from heaven which should be to us an ever-recurring happiness, to the first of us and to the last of us, and a sign from Thee, and grant us means of subsistence, and Thou art the best of the Providers.
[5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.




The Cattle
[6.85] And Zakariya and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas; every one was of the good;



Marium
[19.34] Such is Isa, son of Marium; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute.




The Clans




[33.7] And when We made a covenant with the prophets and with you, and with Nuh and Ibrahim and Musa and Isa, son of Marium, and We made with them a strong covenant



The Counsel


[42.13] He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently.



Ornaments of Gold


[43.63] And when Isa came with clear arguments he said: I have come to you indeed with wisdom, and that I may make clear to you part of what you differ in; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me:



The Iron


[57.27] Then We made Our apostles to follow in their footsteps, and We sent Isa son of Marium afterwards, and We gave him the Injeel, and We put in the hearts of those who followed him kindness and mercy; and (as for) monkery, they innovated it-- We did not prescribe it to them-- only to seek Allah's pleasure, but they did not observe it with its due observance; so We gave to those of them who believed their reward, and most of them are transgressors.





The Ranks


[61.6] And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.



[61.14] O you who believe! be helpers (in the cause) of Allah, as~ Isa son of Marium said to (his) disciples: Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the cause) of Allah. So a party of the children of Israel believed and another party disbelieved; then We aided those who believed against their enemy, and they became uppermost.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kora...size=First+100
Reply

JAG
07-23-2007, 04:39 PM
Hey thanks, that helped alot, i also found a thread stickeyed on this board that helped too.

So in Islam, no one believes Jesus was crucified?

I suppose my next question would have to be about the Islamic afterlife, or dealings with sin.

Is there such thing as sin in Islam, and if so, how do you deal with it?
Reply

- Qatada -
07-23-2007, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
Hey thanks, that helped alot, i also found a thread stickeyed on this board that helped too.

That's kool. :)


So in Islam, no one believes Jesus was crucified?

I suppose my next question would have to be about the Islamic afterlife, or dealings with sin.

Is there such thing as sin in Islam, and if so, how do you deal with it?


The main concept in Islaam (which means submission to God) is that ALL the Prophets of God have called to the worship and obedience of our Creator and Sustainer Alone.


This has been explained in another post so i'll just mention it here;


Let's start off with the fact that the majority of the world believes in a God, or 'Higher being.' The difference between islaam and all other faiths is that instead of just recognizing that there is a God, we believe that the Creator created us with the purpose of submitting to Him, worshipping Him alone sincerely without any associates.


These associates can be stone idols, it can be humans (or human legislations) it can be a person's desires etc.



Islaam call's to the worship of God, known as Allaah in arabic. If you're confused about why God is Allaah in arabic, realise that people from spain call God - Dios, the french call God - Dieu etc. Similarly the way of saying God in arabic is Allaah.


Allaah has sent messengers to convey the same message of calling to the worship of God since the beginning of time, since Adam (peace be upon him) the first person to ever live. All the messengers came to call to Allaah's worship, and this is the purpose of our creation - to worship Allaah, without no associates, so no idols, no humans, no law which opposes the law which Allaah has revealed to His messengers.


We as muslims believe that Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (peace be upon them all) were prophets. There have been a total of 124,000 prophets that have come to mankind to call to the worship of Allaah Alone. However, the majority of mankind has fallen astray, because they do believe in a Creator, but they reject the fact that He should be worshipped alone, and that His law should be established for mankind.


You as a christian may feel that Jesus is God, but we don't believe that God would humiliate himself on the earth by His own creation. That is blasphemy according to all faiths. Because God is All Powerful, and the creation can not harm Him whatsoever.



Any deeds we do, we do them sincerely to gain Allaah's Mercy, and if we gain it - we will enter the eternal paradise which all the prophets have called to also. However, if someone rejects the worship of the One God - without any associates, they will be punished in the hellfire. This is the only sin which God does not forgive [if one dies in that state], why should He, if the person is saying that a stone is God? Or a human is God etc.



We all will die and be raised back on the day of recompense, when Allaah/God will judge between us on all that we did. No-one will be judged unfairly because Allaah is the Most Just. Allaah can bring the dead back to life, the same way He brings the dead earth (plants, flowers etc.) back to life by sending down rain.



If you feel that God is being unfair to His servants by punishing those that associate partners with Him, then the justice for this will also be balanced out. Allaah will ask those who associated partners with Him to ask the one's they worshipped for reward. So if someone worshipped a stone idol, they will ask that for recompense on the day of judgement (obviously the stone won't be able to do anything.) If someone worships a human, even if the human is pious, the person will have to get their reward from this human [but obviously everything is dependant on the Creator.] The one's who worshipped God Alone, sincerely without no associates - they will be rewarded by Allaah, the Exalted with an eternal paradise where they can have all that they desire, and more.



If anyone feels that it is unjust, then they have to stop being unjust to their own Creator. If Allaah created man so he should worship Him, then why worship the stone idol, or why worship a human when you can turn towards your Creator who gives you all you have, and will reward you more if you turn to Him sincerely in worship?


And (remember) when your Lord proclaimed: "If you give thanks (by accepting Faith and worshipping none but Allâh), I will give you more (of My Blessings), but if you are thankless (i.e. disbelievers), verily! My Punishment is indeed severe."

[Qur'an Chapter Abraham 14: 7]



The basic concept in Islaam in regard to sin is that every son/daughter of Adam is prone to commit sin, but the best of sinners are those who learn from their error and repent to Allaah sincerely to forgive them.


We do not believe in the concept of the 'original sin' - since Adam and Eve repented to Allaah (after they ate from the tree) so He forgave them.

Similarly, all the children of Adam are born pure and sinless. Yet if they do sin, no-one else bears their sins except their own souls. However, Allaah is so Merciful that He is willing to forgive the one who does wrong, so long as this person intends not to do that evil again. Yet still, if this person falls into error again - they should continue to repent and intend not to do the sin again. Since only those who disbelieve despair of the Mercy of Allaah.



This whole life is a test, a trial between good and evil. Will we remain sincere to Allaah by continuously trying to do good? Or will we become arrogant and reject Allaah and His blessings? Without a doubt, those who are thankful to Him and accept His Messengers', and do good to please Him - their reward is with Him, the Rich, All Praised. Those who reject His blessings and turn them into disbelief - then they will be punished for their own evils in the hellfire, which is a place for those who were too arrogant, and denied the favours of Allaah.



Just imagine, if Allaah has given you so much good throughout your life (like your eye sight, your hearing, the food you eat, the clothes you wear, anything you can ever imagine you have in this life) - then if you are thankful to Allaah, you are a believer, and you submit yourself to Allaah, then know that Allaah has an even greater reward in store for you in Paradise (since Paradise is the original home of the family of Adam - peace be upon him.)

If He has given you so much good in this life without you striving for it, imagine the great good He will have for you if you did strive for His reward of Paradise! :)




If you ever have anymore questions, or unsure of anything i said - please don't hesitate to ask.






Peace.
Reply

Muslim Woman
07-24-2007, 01:58 AM
salaam/peace;

some more links
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503546388




Murad - United Kingdom

Title


Status of Jesus in Islam

Question



Dear scholars, as-salamu `alaykum. What is the status of Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) in Islam?

Date
21/Jun/2007

Name of Counsellor
Muzammil Siddiqi

Topic
Muslim Belief

Answer

Wa `alaykum as-salamu wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

First of all, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you have in us. We hope our efforts meet your expectations.

As regards your question, it is an established fact that all the Prophets and Messengers of God were sent as light bearers to humanity; they all came with the purpose of upholding the truth, maintaining justice and bringing man closer to his Lord. In accomplishing this task, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), as well as other Prophets of God, had to undergo a series of difficulties, hardships and torment to make people grasp and believe in the message brought to them. As members of the human family, we should show all forms of respect to Allah's Prophets and Messengers. We should in anyway project any of Allah's Prophets or Messengers in a bad way. Rather, we should follow their guidance and stick to their footsteps in order to achieve steadfastness and uprightness in our lives.
Delving deeper in this issue,Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council of North America, stated in his Khutbah at the Islamic Society of Orange County (California, USA) on Shawwal 15, 1423/December 20, 2002:
Almighty Allah says: (Say ye: we believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam).) (Al-Baqarah 2: 136)

(Behold! the angels said: ‘O Mary! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.) (Aal `Imran 3: 45)

We believe in all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah. We respect and honor all of them without any discrimination. We believe that all Prophets preached the message of tawhid (monotheism) and all of them invited human beings to worship Allah alone and live a righteous life. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was not the only Prophet of God, but he was the last and final Prophet of God. Prophet Muhammad is not the founder of Islam; all Prophets were Muslims and they followed the way of Islam.
It may be a surprise to many people in America that we Muslims also believe in Jesus. Although we do not celebrate Christmas, but we do respect and honor the person in whose name this festival is observed. We believe that Jesus was one of the great Prophets of God. In the Qur’an he is called ‘Isa. He is also known as al-Masih (the Christ) and Ibn Maryam (Son of Mary). He has many other beautiful names and titles in the Qur’an. He is a highly respected religious figure. Every Muslim honors him, respects him and loves him. His mother is also highly respected, loved and honored. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslim men all over the world who feel proud and blessed to have the name `Isa; as there are thousands of Muslim women who feel honored and blessed to be called Maryam.

Unlike the Gospels or the New Testament in general, the subject matter of the Qur’an is not Jesus. The Qur’an speaks in detail about God, God’s will for human beings and about many of God’s Prophets and Messengers. Yet, all the basic facts about Jesus’ life are mentioned in the Qur’an. The Qur’an says in several places that Mary was a pious virgin who devoted her life in prayer and divine service. The angel of God one day visited her and gave her the good news of the birth of a blessed child. This was a miraculous birth as Mary was not a married woman. The virgin birth is clearly mentioned in the Qur’an and no recognized Muslim authority has ever disputed this claim. However, Muslim and Christian interpretations differ on the meaning of virgin birth. For Christians it was the sign of incarnation, the coming to earth of the Son of God. For Muslims it was a special miracle. For every Prophet a particular miracle was given according to the needs and challenges of his time. Since Jesus’ contemporaries used to deny the existence of spirit, they were shown the presence and the power of divine spirit by this unique birth. Jesus also performed many other miracles, such as raising of the dead to life, healing the blind and lepers, speaking about the hidden things. All these miracles show that material is not the only thing; there is something beyond the material that must be recognized. Jesus reminds us about the power of Divine Spirit. The Qur’an emphasizes that Jesus performed all his miracles only by the permission of God.

The message of Jesus was basically the same as the message of other prophets of God. He was sent to invite people to the worship of One God, to do the righteous deed and be kind and loving to others. He reminded his people to pay attention not only to the letter of the laws but also to the spirit of the laws.

The Qur’an says that Jesus was mistreated, denied and rejected by his people just as other prophets were also mistreated. Some of his contemporaries opposed him and tried to crucify him. It is also reported in the Christian Bible that Jesus prayed to God to save him from his enemies and remove the “cup of death” from him. (“If thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.” Mark 14:36 and Luke 22:42) God accepted Jesus’ prayer and saved him from crucifixion or death on the cross. He was lifted up to heaven (An-Nisaa’: 157-158). Jesus is yet to fulfill his Messianic role. Muslims believe that Jesus will come back to earth before the end of time and will restore peace and order, struggle against the Anti-Christ (Dajjal) or demonic forces, and bring victory for truth and righteousness. The true followers of Jesus will prevail over those who deny him, misrepresent him and reject him.

Muslims and Christians differ in their Theology (views about God) and their Christology (views about Christ), but they both believe in the same God and in the same Jesus. There should be better understanding and better relations among them.
Taken, with slight modifications, from www.pakistanlink.com

Related Questions


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Status of Jesus in Islam


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Reply

ummzayd
07-24-2007, 08:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JAG

I am very interested in two things really.

1) What are the major differences between Christianity and Islam

2) Does the Quran (Koran) mention Jesus in it, and if so can you give me some passages where He is?

-James
Hi James, it's good to have you here, I think you will find many Muslims here who are delighted to be asked about Islam and happy for the opportunity to explain the faith. I have found the moderators to be extremely knowledgeable masha'Allah (masha'Allah is something we say when admiring something about a person).

I was a Christian, but became Muslim about 9 yrs ago. I have found the biggest differences between Islam and Christianity to be 1) the different beliefs about who Jesus was (peace be upon him) and 2) the Christian concept of original sin and the need for atonement through sacrifice, which is unheard of in Islam. In Islam, we believe every person is responsible only for their own sins, and it is only necessary to sincerely ask for forgiveness, and God will forgive. No sacrifice required.

peace to you
Reply

JAG
07-24-2007, 02:23 PM
Wow, thanks guys, all of that helped a lot. I am very intriged about your faith.

I still have a few more questions though.

1) I understand Islam doesn't say Jesus is God, but does it say Jesus is the Son of God?

2) How much of the New Testiment do Muslims believe in? All of it? None of it? Or just the parts that are also in the Quran?

3) Where is Islam in relation to Judaism. I have always learned that it stemed from Isaac and Ishmael - Isaac carried on Judaism, Ishmael's decendents were Muslim.

4) I really know next to nothing about Muhammad. Can you explain his story to me?
Reply

- Qatada -
07-24-2007, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
Wow, thanks guys, all of that helped a lot. I am very intriged about your faith.

Wow that's really good :D


I still have a few more questions though.

Sure, lets see:


1) I understand Islam doesn't say Jesus is God, but does it say Jesus is the Son of God?

We don't believe that Allaah/God has children. Since there is none like Him, and He has no Partners. Since God doesn't have partners, He doesn't have children. I know you might say that it isn't 'literal' - but why say that God has children then? :)


Allaah says in His final revelation (translation of the meaning);
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

And there is none comparable unto Him.


[Qur'an Surah Ikhlaas (chapter of Sincerety - 112)


So Allaah is One, and the Only true God. He is Eternal and never dies, and we all depend upon Him. He doesn't beget (have children), and He wasn't born either. And there is none like Him.




So what is the Islamic stance on Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him)?


Allaah says in the Qur'an (translation of the meaning):

The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

The Truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.


[Qur'an 3: 60-1]


Jesus was born of a virgin birth, his mother gave birth to him even though she was a virgin. Now you may ask how this was, but this shows that Allaah is able to do all things.

You might ask though, how come he was born without a father, that must be really special. Without a doubt it is special, yet it still doesn't take Jesus (peace be upon him) to the level of Allaah, since Adam was also created without a mother or a father.


Jesus is the true Messiah/Christ, and he will return near the end times.


I've explained that in depth abit here;

http://www.islamicboard.com/794662-post4.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/794680-post8.html




2) How much of the New Testiment do Muslims believe in? All of it? None of it? Or just the parts that are also in the Quran?


We believe that the Gospel (Injeel) was revealed to Jesus (peace be upon him) from Allaah/God. Today this isn't existant, and we hear the Gospel of Mark, John, Matthew etc. but we never hear any mention of the Gospel of Jesus! Which then makes you question their claim.


However, there may be some parts of the teachings of Jesus still within some of the Christian texts. Yet we don't have any clear proof, the Christians can't even agree on a common copy among their different denominations. Allaah sent the final revelation to His final servant and Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him.) The Qur'an is the Criterion to distinguish between the truth and the falsehood, and it has been authentically preserved for us throughout the centuries.



3) Where is Islam in relation to Judaism. I have always learned that it stemed from Isaac and Ishmael - Isaac carried on Judaism, Ishmael's decendents were Muslim.

Islaam means submission to God, anyone who submits to God is therefore a Muslim (one who submits to God.)


We as Muslims know that Abraham didn't call himself a Jew, nor did any of the other Prophets boast of being Jews. Rather, they were happy in serving God, they submitted to God in the way He wanted them to worship Him, therefore they were Muslims (ones who submit to God.)



Islaam was and has been the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Moses, Jesus son of Mary, Muhammad (peace be upon all the prophets of God.) Like stated before, all 124,000 Prophets of God. All calling to the worship of God Alone, in the way that He wanted to be worshipped.

Their social laws may have been slightly different, however, they all submitted to God in the way He wanted to be worshipped. The final Messenger of God/Allaah is Muhammad (peace be upon him) who is also a direct descendant of Prophet Abraham. And he came for all of humanity, and after him there will be no more Messengers. Rather, Allaah will preserve the message which was sent to Him till the end times.



4) I really know next to nothing about Muhammad. Can you explain his story to me?

You can read his biography from here God willing:

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-...mmad-saws.html




If you ever have anymore questions, or need anything clarified - please don't hesitate to ask! :)





Peace.
Reply

Muslim Woman
07-24-2007, 04:02 PM
Salaam/peace;

format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
Wow, thanks guys, all of that helped a lot. I am very intriged about your faith.

it takes to time to appear post here .....so boring :(

I gave link here :)

Things in Islam I am curious about

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post797034
Reply

JAG
07-24-2007, 08:23 PM
So wait...is the Quran dated back further than the Torah?

A lot of that makes sense, up until the point you dismiss Abraham as being a Jew.
Reply

- Qatada -
07-24-2007, 08:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
So wait...is the Quran dated back further than the Torah?

No, no. The Torah was revealed to Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) who came before Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him.) Therefore the Torah was revealed before the Qur'an.



A lot of that makes sense, up until the point you dismiss Abraham as being a Jew.

To be Jewish by blood isn't something wrong or disliked, however - being Muslim (submitting to God) is more important don't you agree?


In regard to Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him), Allaah says (translation of the meaning):


Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.

Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.


[Qur'an 3: 67-8]

Is there any authentic mention of Prophet Abraham being a jew? I'm not sure if it's mentioned by anyone, so i can't say who says it. But if one was to say that he is Jewish because he was the father of Isaac, then wouldn't he also be 'Arab because he is the father of Ishmael?


From the knowledge that i do have, Prophet Abraham came from the area which is known as Iraq today. And Allaah knows best.




Regards.
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ummzayd
07-24-2007, 08:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
So wait...is the Quran dated back further than the Torah?

A lot of that makes sense, up until the point you dismiss Abraham as being a Jew.
Abraham (peace be upon him) was from Ur of Chaldees (in Mesopotamia, now known as Iraq). So he was an Iraqi!

He lived before Judah, from whom the name of 'Jews' comes. He came from a tribe of idol worshippers, but sought after the One God. He was the great-grandfather of Judah, so how can he be said to be 'of the tribe of Judah'? ie Jewish.

Abraham (peace be upon him) is called a 'Hebrew' in the bible, which is not synonymous with 'Jew'. maybe you can research the meaning of 'Hebrew' for yourself if you are interested?

I hope that makes sense to you.

peace
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JAG
07-24-2007, 09:17 PM
If you look up the definition of Judaism, it says it is traced back to Abraham. I understand that you could techincally say he submitted to the One True God. And I understand how he could be called the first Muslim since his son was Ishmael, but wasnt that the son born of a concubine Hagar?
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- Qatada -
07-24-2007, 09:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
If you look up the definition of Judaism, it says it is traced back to Abraham.

Yes, they may. But if you've read the verses which i mentioned in my former post, it is a direct response to those who claimed he was a Jew. Did he call himself a Jew? Do they have proof for that, or do they just place that idea in their books? I can assure you that you'll find no authentic evidence which states him saying that he was one. Although they may say it. It's almost like a time paradox.

As sister umzayd stated in the previous post also;


format_quote Originally Posted by ummzayd
He lived before Judah, from whom the name of 'Jews' comes. He came from a tribe of idol worshippers, but sought after the One God. He was the great-grandfather of Judah, so how can he be said to be 'of the tribe of Judah'? ie Jewish.


I understand that you could techincally say he submitted to the One True God. And I understand how he could be called the first Muslim since his son was Ishmael,

That's kool that you understand. :)



but wasnt that the son born of a concubine Hagar?

The scholars have stated that he was married to her. But just for arguments sake - if she was to be a concubine and give birth to a son. Is that something to be looked down upon?

God doesn't look at your status in the sight of people, or how much wealth you have etc. Rather - He looks at your hearts, and your piety. So if one was to argue that he 'is the son of a concubine' therefore, he 'can't be praised or loved in the sight of God', then that claim is unjust and also insulting. And i'm sure you agree that if any of us were living some centuries previously, and one was to use that as an insult to make us seem inferior in the sight of God - we wouldn't like it either.


What is the right upon a slave?


The Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said;


"Those slaves are your brothers, only God gave you an upper hand over them. So let that who has his brother (i.e. slave) under him give him the same food he himself eats, and the same clothing as he himself wears. The master may not give his brother a task that is beyond his ability. If he does give him such task, let him lend him a hand."


He (peace be upon him) also said:
' If a man hits or beats his slave, his atonement is the freeing of that slave.

Reported by Muslim and Abu Dawood.


There are more narrations of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him):

'Umar bin Al-Khattab once walked in Makkah and saw some slaves standing aside waiting, while their master ate. He was angry at this and inquired of the master :
"Why do some masters regard themselves as superior to their slaves ? "
Then he ordered the slaves to advance and eat.



A man once entered the house of Salman, may God be pleased with him, and saw him kneading his dough. "What are you doing, Abu 'Abdullah? " " I have sent my servant on an errand, " he answered. " So I didn't like to give him some more work." This is some of what Islam did for slaves !

The Islamic position on Slavery: A refutation of doubts
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions



That is just the opinions if for arguments sake, one was to say that she was a concubine. Yet as i've stated earlier, she was the wife of Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him.)




And Allaah knows best.





Regards.
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Woodrow
07-24-2007, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
If you look up the definition of Judaism, it says it is traced back to Abraham. I understand that you could techincally say he submitted to the One True God. And I understand how he could be called the first Muslim since his son was Ishmael, but wasnt that the son born of a concubine Hagar?
Muslim is not a race. It is a person who submits to Allah(swt). Ishmael can be called the first Arab but he was not the first Muslim. The First Human Muslim we know of is Adam(PBUH).

There seems to be much confusion among people that Muslim=Arab and Arab=Muslim. But, that is far from the case. Only about 15% of the world's Muslims are Arab and not all Arabs are Muslim. There are also Arabs that are Jewish, Christian, Sabeean, Hindu, etc.
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Grace Seeker
07-24-2007, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ummzayd
Abraham (peace be upon him) was from Ur of Chaldees (in Mesopotamia, now known as Iraq). So he was an Iraqi!

He lived before Judah, from whom the name of 'Jews' comes. He came from a tribe of idol worshippers, but sought after the One God. He was the great-grandfather of Judah, so how can he be said to be 'of the tribe of Judah'? ie Jewish.

Abraham (peace be upon him) is called a 'Hebrew' in the bible, which is not synonymous with 'Jew'. maybe you can research the meaning of 'Hebrew' for yourself if you are interested?

I hope that makes sense to you.

peace


I think the confusion over Abraham doesn't have to do with how he saw himself. He clearly would not have seen himself as either Jewish or Arab as the concepts did not even exist at his time. But today he is claimed by both Jews and Arabs who, of course, want to consider him one of their own.

As having to be of the tribe of Judah to be Jewish, I don't think that it is necessary. Yes, I understand that this is where we generally think of the term as coming from (though if one reads the posts in the "ask a Jew" thread, I believe I read a different answer there about that a few months back). But that does not take into account that today we have people who are of the tribe of Benjamin (and this would included King David) and of the tribe of Levi (for example all those with the last name of Cohen) who are also considered Jews. So, the term "Jew", as used today, includes more than just the descendants of Judah.
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rubiesand
07-24-2007, 10:20 PM
Hi Jag, welcome to the forum. You asked a few posts back about the story of Muhammad (peace be upon him). Here is a quote from a short but sweet outline of the story written by Hamza Yusuf, who is a convert to Islam:


The Prophet of Islam was born in the city of Mecca, Arabia, into a poor but noble branch of an aristocratic clan known as Quraysh, a people who despised treachery, lies and stupidity, while honouring bravery in battle, generosity in partying, and cleverness in poetry.

Some families, were so ashamed of their baby girls, that they would bury them alive instead of suffering the possible indignity of future dishonour. The religion of the Arabs at the time was a hodge-podge of superstition, divination and idolatry. To them, man's life ended with his death and his afterlife was based on his military exploits might be immortalized by a poets tongue.

The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was born into this world on April 9th, 570, Christian era in the lunar month of Rabi'a al-Awwal. His father, Abdallah died during his mother’s pregnancy. And for the first four years he was raised in the relative purity of the desert by a Bedouin woman named Halimah. After which he returned to his mother, Aminah. But in his seventh year, his mother died leaving him in the care of his grandfather.

At the age of twenty-five, he was employed as a commercial agent by Lady Khadijah, a successful widow from his own clan. She soon recognized his honesty and good nature and proposed marriage. Although fifteen years younger than she was, he accepted her proposal, and fathered six of his seven children with her.

At the age of forty, it had become his custom to escape the idolatry of Meccan society by seeking solitude in a cave on the mountain known as "the Mountain of Light." In the solitary confines of his small cave a voice pierced his consciousness declaring: "Recite!"

Alarmed and shivering he fled to his wife, begging her to wrap him in a cloak. He feared for his sanity, concerned that a desert spirit or poetic muse might be pursuing him. More revelations soon followed and Muhammad came to the understanding that he was not only a prophet in a long line of prophets, but that he was the last of them who was sent with a universal message.

As the days passed his revelations increased and they were powerfully rhythmic punctuated with intoxicating messages that challenged listeners to reflect on everyday miracles such as the alternation of the night and day

These revelations revealed to Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, came to be known as the Qur'an, the Muslim holy book. For thirteen years he invited his clan to worship one God, sit with slaves in spiritual solidarity, respect women as soul-full equals and the source of human mercy, care for the widow, the orphan, the weak and the oppressed.

At first people ridiculed his message and accused him of attempting "to make the gods one." His message threatened his people’s financial control of the markets of Mecca where pilgrims from all over Arabia came to spend their wealth.

When his clan failed to stop his preaching they plotted to kill him in his sleep. But he was warned by the Angel Gabriel and told to flee in the cover of darkness to Madina with his beloved friend and lifelong companion Abu Bakr.

Setting out, the two sought refuge in a cave to escape the skilled trackers of Mecca hot on their trail. The bounty hunters quickly came upon the cave, but a spider’s web had already covered the entrance and a dove with her young rested in a nest above it.

When the posse left and the two felt safe again, they continued their journey to the city of Yathrib. And as they entered it the young girls and children of Bani Najjar came out chanting lines of poetry which is still sung all over the world in remembrance of this auspicious occasion.

The name Yathrib was changed to Medina, city of hope. It became a city founded on the brotherhood of virtue. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, enacted a treaty uniting the once warring groups. He secured the rights of the Jewish minority by granting them full citizenship and freedom to practice their religion without constraint.

Days after his arrival in Medina he began the construction of a mosque, a sanctuary of prayer and meditation, in the centre of the city. And he had his companions; the Muslims create their own marketplace in order to ensure economic strength.

The Meccans, sensing that a rising power was now emerging in the peninsula, plotted ways of subverting the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and his growing community of believers.

And the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, who had practiced a strict pacifism in Mecca for thirteen years and disliked the use of coercive force, was now given permission by God to defend against any attacks by his enemies. The Qur'an declared, "Fighting has been prescribed for you and you detest it, but perhaps you detest something and in it is much good. And perhaps you love something and in it is much harm, and God knows and you do not know." [Qur'an 2:216].

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "Never desire to meet your enemies, rather ask God for peace and well-being; but should you be forced to meet them, then act courageously." [Sahih al-Bukhari]

Muslims are not ashamed of their Prophet’s teaching about war. On the contrary, for us it is a great source of pride. He was courageous as a great lion against the strong and oppressive yet gentle as a shepherd with the weak and the oppressed.

The true object of war fought for God should always be peace. What the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, taught is that Muslims fight for a just cause only. In this world, there are only two choices: two sides, truth and justice or falsehood and oppression. You don’t have to be a Muslim to understand that.

After years of conflict between members of his clan and his followers, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, had a revelation that he should visit the sacred mosque. In the eighth year after his migration to Medina the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, set out for Mecca but his adversaries refused to allow him in. They sent out an arbitrator to strike an agreement that would bring the stand-off to an end. And on every point of this treaty the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, compromised his own position in pursuit of peace.

On the journey back to Medina some of the companions were deeply troubled by what had just taken place and disappointed that they were thwarted from visiting the sanctuary. When asked to explain, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, replied, "Did I say it was going to be this year?"

And so the following year, in accordance with the treaty, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and his followers performed a pilgrimage completely unmolested. But soon his clan the Quraysh broke their end of the deal, massacring another clan with alliance to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, attacking them even in the sacred precinct. Abu Sufyan, the head of the Prophet’s enemies, attempted to restore the truce but it was too late. News of the massacre enraged the believers and the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, summoned all of the Muslims capable of bearing arms to march on Mecca. When the nearly ten thousand Muslims arrived on the outskirts of the city, the Quraysh realized they did not stand a chance and people either fled or stayed in their homes.

And so it was, after years of persecution, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, marched triumphant into the city of his birth at the head of the largest army ever assembled in Arabian history. With his head bowed in humility he declared a general amnesty and granted war criminals refuge.

His overwhelming magnanimity of character led to a mass conversion among the citizens of Mecca. Even Abu Sufyan, his archenemy, embraced the religion of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. In the months that followed, almost all of Arabia dispatched representatives to swear allegiance to this Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and to enter in the faith of Islam. In a period of twenty-three years Muhammad, peace be upon him, had succeeded in uniting a feuding people trapped in cycles of violence into one people with a sense of destiny and a mission that would transform the world.

He elevated the low, and he lowered the elevated that they might meet in that middle place known as brotherhood. He infused in them a love of learning unleashing a creative power that would lead to some of the most extraordinary scientific breakthroughs in human history.

He died on the same day he was born, in the same house he had lived in for ten years in Medina, on a small bed made of leather stuffed with palm fibres, in the arms of his beloved wife Aishah. His dying words were, "Treat your women well, and do not oppress your servants, the prayer, the prayer, don’t be neglectful of the prayer. O God, my highest companion, O highest companion."




source
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JAG
07-24-2007, 10:42 PM
Makes sense. Except i'm still having a problem with this Isaac Ishamel thing.

According to the Torah, Isaac was the one whom Abraham's offspring would be reconed.

I'm not saying Ishmael wasnt blessed, for God did bless him and he had 12 tribes under him.

But according to the Torah and the Bible it was through Isaac that the covenant was made, that Abraham's offspring would be known, and the lineage of Jesus was made.

He was also the son promised to Sarah and Abraham - Ishmael was not the one.

So, i understand what you are saying, but i have to ask. Since the Torah predates the Quran, wouldent it be more accurate? Or in this case, does the Quran correct the Torah through a revelation?
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جوري
07-25-2007, 05:19 AM
actually according to Jewish Laws the rights of inheritance whether of a covenant or otherwise, goes to the first born.. And the first son of Abraham PBUH and the one who was taken for the sacrifice is Ishmael.. Issac wasn't even born at the time.. why do you think Sara (P) wanted Hagar taken else where? she was barren!.. it was later that she came to conceive Abraham received gladtiding of Issac when Sara was of very old age... that is if we are to go purely by history not theology...
I hope that helps... I am sure someone here can offer you some sources, it is 1.18Am where I am not and can't dedicate to this with any justice...but hope it was of help?
peace and welcome to LI
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ummzayd
07-25-2007, 09:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
As having to be of the tribe of Judah to be Jewish, I don't think that it is necessary. Yes, I understand that this is where we generally think of the term as coming from (though if one reads the posts in the "ask a Jew" thread, I believe I read a different answer there about that a few months back). But that does not take into account that today we have people who are of the tribe of Benjamin (and this would included King David) and of the tribe of Levi (for example all those with the last name of Cohen) who are also considered Jews. So, the term "Jew", as used today, includes more than just the descendants of Judah.
well we can legitimately claim prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) as a Muslim, because 'Muslim' means 'one who has submitted to the will of the One True God'. And certainly the Jews may claim him as a ancestor, but we would dispute about whether the prophet was as partial as their scriptures make him out to be, and abandoned his teenage son from a 'slave-girl' because a superior son had been born to him from his wife.

peace to you
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ummzayd
07-25-2007, 11:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
Makes sense. Except i'm still having a problem with this Isaac Ishamel thing.

According to the Torah, Isaac was the one whom Abraham's offspring would be reconed.

I'm not saying Ishmael wasnt blessed, for God did bless him and he had 12 tribes under him.

But according to the Torah and the Bible it was through Isaac that the covenant was made, that Abraham's offspring would be known, and the lineage of Jesus was made.

He was also the son promised to Sarah and Abraham - Ishmael was not the one.

So, i understand what you are saying, but i have to ask. Since the Torah predates the Quran, wouldent it be more accurate? Or in this case, does the Quran correct the Torah through a revelation?
as you correctly guessed, we do believe that the torah was corrupted and so the qur'anic version of events is the correct one, and that God will protect the qur'an from corruption because it is the final scripture to stand for all time and for all humanity.

unfortunately the bible stories of Ishmael/Isaac portray a very partial God which goes against the Islamic understanding of God. We do believe that human hands altered these scriptures and deliberately tried to exclude Ishmael from any 'spiritual' inheritence so to speak. still, you can see that the covenant was made before the birth of Isaac and the circumcision, which was a sign of that covenant, was performed by Abraham upon Ishmael. his descendants kept faith with that and always circumcised their offspring.

If you read the OT scriptures relating to Ishmael you will find some odd things. for example, Ishmael would have been at least 16 when he and his mother were supposedly cast out (according to the bible Abraham pbuh was 86 when Ishmael was born and 100 when Isaac was born, and Ishmael was cast out when Isaac was weaned). and yet in Genesis 21:14 when they were cast out Hagar is supposed to have carried her son. and a few verses later when she is in despair of thirst she 'threw him under a bush'! that's not a strapping lad, it's a baby. and indeed we Muslims do believe that when Ishmael was still a babe Abraham pbuh took them away, to Mecca, and they established a settlement there. Also, it clearly states in the bible that when Prophet Abraham died he was buried by both of his sons, Ishmael and Isaac.

So Sarah's rather mean and snobbish demand to 'cast out this bondwoman and her son' was not so effective, as there must have been communication between Ishmael and Abraham (peace be upon them both) for Ishmael to know that his father was dying and return to bury him.#

consider this: christians always condemn the fact that Islam allows polygamy, and find it distasteful that God would permit more than one wife in decent, dignified marriage in which each wife MUST be treated equally. and then, they tell us that the great patriarch and 'friend of God' Abraham pbuh was allowed by God to sleep with his slave-girl in order to get a son, and then commanded by God to throw them both out because a new, superior son had been born to his 'superior' wife and the inferior son doesn't count any more (won't that resound with all those poor kids whose fathers go on to have 'new' families after divorcing their first wives - somehow I would expect God to be better than them). and that is the moral high ground which the Christians stand upon?

In the bible, when Isaac is going to be sacrificed there is a repetition of 'take your son, your ONLY son, whom you so love, Isaac' (such detailed instructions for an only son!). why is it emphasised 'your ONLY son?' not 'your son Isaac whom you so love'? I believe it's possible that God left it there to show us the error of the copyists in ascribing the sacrifice to Isaac. at no time was Isaac the 'only son'. Ishmael was born first and for 14 years he was the 'only son' of Abraham pbuh. At no time was Isaac the ONLY son of his father. And why should Ishmael be so thoroughly disowned that God himself denies him his father, by calling Isaac 'Abraham's only son'? was it because he was the son of a slave woman? does God despise a person for their lineage?

anyway, must get back to my kids now. peace to you!
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- Qatada -
07-25-2007, 04:41 PM
Here's something amazing, which will insha Allaah (God willing) clarify alot of things while placing them into context. :)
“How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us?’ But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie” (Jeremiah 8:8).

We are told in Genesis 22:2: “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” At no time during the lifetime of Isaac (upon whom be peace) was he ever the “only son” of Abraham. Did “God” forget about Ishmael, Isaac’s brother who was fourteen years his senior?


Christians will retort that God only intended the son Abraham “loved,” the implication being that Abraham hated Ishmael. Although we can never believe such nonsense, what does the Law say about this?

In Deuteronomy 21:15-17 we read: “If a man has two wives, one loved and the other unloved, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the unloved, and if the firstborn son is of her who is unloved, then it shall be, on the day of bequeaths his possessions to his sons, that he must not bestow firstborn status on the son of the loved wife in preference to the son of the unloved, the true firstborn. But he shall acknowledge the son of the unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.”


Therefore, it matters not whether Abraham loved Ishmael, he IS the first-born. It was none other than the evil pen of a scribe who changed the name “Ishmael” to “Isaac” in Genesis 22:2. Truly Allah has told us: “Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places…” (Qur’an 4:46).

“But Ishmael was the illegitimate son of a bondswoman!” the Christian will shout. Tell him to consider the following passage: “Then Sarah, Abram’s wife, took Hagar her maid, the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his WIFE, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan. So Hagar bore Abram a SON; and Abram named his SON, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram” (Genesis 16:3, 15-16).



Genesis 15 reveals to us two vital stipulations in the covenant between God and the chosen child of Abraham. It reads: “Then He (God) brought him (Abraham) outside and said, ‘Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.’ And he said to him, (1) ‘So shall your descendants be.’ On the same day, the Lord made a covenant with Abram saying, (2) ‘To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates’” (Genesis 15:5, 18.).

The vast majority of land between the two great rivers constitutes the Arabian desert and peninsula. This region was never conquered by the Children of Israel, but immediately upon the emergence of Muhammad and the Muslims. It was only with the appearance of the Messenger of the Covenant Muhammad (Malachi 3) that all idolatry was rooted out of these lands promised to the covenant progeny of Abraham. Jewish history demonstrates the obvious ineptness of the Children of Jacob to abolish the heathen worship of statues in Palestine and even in their very Temple!

Karen Armstrong, author of the popular book A History of God remarks: “We have seen that it took the ancient Israelites some 700 years to break with their old religious allegiances and accept monotheism, but Muhammad managed to help the Arabs achieve this difficult transition in a mere 23 years” (page 146).



The Sign of God’s covenant was circumcision. In Genesis 17:9, 11 God tells Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations…and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.”

In verse 26 we are told: “That very same day Abraham was circumcised, and his son Ishmael.” So far we have been told that:


1) Ishmael is Abraham’s first-born son.
2) Hagar is Abraham’s lawfully wedded wife.
3) The covenant seed will be as numerous as the stars.
4) The covenant seed will be given the land between the Nile and Euphrates Rivers.
5) Ishmael was Abraham’s only son and seed for fourteen years.
6) Circumcision is the symbol of God’s covenant.
7) Ishmael was circumcised with his father on the same day to fulfill the covenant with the flesh of their foreskins.
NONE of the above have anything to do with Isaac!

The most obvious piece of Jewish scribal deception, however, occurs in Genesis 21:

“Now Abraham was one hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him…So the child grew up and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the same day Isaac was weaned. And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing (playing with Isaac, REB version).

Therefore she said to Abraham, ‘Cast out this bondswoman with her son; for the son of this bondswoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac’…So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away (he set the child on her shoulder, REB version).

Then she departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. And the water in the skin was used up, and she placed the boy under one of the shrubs. Then she went and sat down across from him at a distance of about a bowshot; for she said to herself, ‘Let me not see the death of the boy.’ So she sat opposite him, and lifted her voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad (God heard the child crying, REB version).


Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, ‘What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand (in your hand), for I will make him a great nation.’ Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water, and gave the lad a drink.” – Genesis 21:5-19.

It is very clear from the text that we are given the profile of an infant here and not that of a seventeen-year old man. In Jewish custom, a child (Isaac) is weaned after three years. This would have made Ishmael seventeen (Remember that Abraham was 86 when Ishmael was born and 100 when Isaac was born, Gen. 16:16, 21:5). Can you imagine a grown man sitting on Hagar’s shoulder, CRYING beneath a shrub for water, and then being LIFTED UP and FED by his mother? It is very interesting to note that although Ishmael is referenced in no less than eleven places in this passage, he is never addressed by name.

It seems as if the chronologies of these events have been deliberately manipulated in order to give the reader the impression that Ishmael was banished due to a conflict between him and Isaac. In actuality, the nameless infant would not know his younger sibling until many years later. According to Islam, Ishmael and his mother were never banished at all. Abraham was told by God to leave them in the wilderness as a sign of his faith that God would fulfill His covenant under any circumstances. This was where Ishmael grew up and continued his father's work.



According to Genesis 16:10-11, God called him “Ishmael” because He heard Hagar crying after she ran away from Sarah. This concocted story serves as a clever way for the rabbinical scribes to explain the meaning of Ishmael’s name, meaning “God heard,” while also making the point that Hagar and her son are inferior to Sarah. It is possible, however, that the child was not named until after Genesis 21:5-19 was written and “God heard” (verse 17) the infant child Ishmael crying while he and his mother settled in Baca, “the weeping valley” (Psalm 84:6; Qur’an 3:96), and not Beersheba as the Bible states. Another possibility is that God named him Ishmael because He had heard the prayer of Abraham for a son to continue his legacy. Why exactly Ishmael’s name is not mentioned in Genesis 21:5-19 remains a mystery.

We are also told in Genesis 25:9 that in the spirit of brotherhood, both sons of Abraham buried their father. From this we can also conclude that the story given in Genesis 16:10 in which God tells Hagar that she must “submit herself under Sarah’s hand,” and Ishmael is called a “wild ass of a man,” are undoubtedly forgeries penned by the Jewish rabbis and scribes in order to discredit the God-given rights of Ishmael, the ancestor of Muhammad -- The Messenger of God (salallau ‘alayhi wa sallam).

Source:
http://www.voiceforislam.com/2005/03...-or-isaac.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/12447-post24.html
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JAG
07-25-2007, 07:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
actually according to Jewish Laws the rights of inheritance whether of a covenant or otherwise, goes to the first born.. And the first son of Abraham PBUH and the one who was taken for the sacrifice is Ishmael.. Issac wasn't even born at the time.. why do you think Sara (P) wanted Hagar taken else where? she was barren!.. it was later that she came to conceive Abraham received gladtiding of Issac when Sara was of very old age... that is if we are to go purely by history not theology...
I hope that helps... I am sure someone here can offer you some sources, it is 1.18Am where I am not and can't dedicate to this with any justice...but hope it was of help?
peace and welcome to LI
But Ishmael wasnt the one promised to Abraham, it was Isaac - since Sarah was his mom.
Reply

JAG
07-25-2007, 07:32 PM
okay, so you answered my questions. You believe the Torah was corrupted, thats all i really need to know, thanks.
Reply

جوري
07-25-2007, 08:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
But Ishmael wasnt the one promised to Abraham, it was Isaac - since Sarah was his mom.
what are you basing your opinion on? history or biblical errors? Book of Jeremiah, Chapter 8, Verse 8 it says this
8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,"
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

You have to admit there is a biblical error on either front..

Saying your only son, is wrong which ever way you slice it, you'll get only Ishmael out of the formula-- 1- Abraham has two sons so how can it be take your only son?.. 2- if indeed we are to go by take your only son, then the son would have been Ishmael on the account Issac wasn't even born... here is something written here sometime ago by a member--

Who had the covenant? Ishmael or Isaac?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The story of Abraham, Ishmael and Hagar (May the mercy and blessings of Allah be on them all) is found in the Bible, much skewed and corrupted from the pure Islamic version. The reason this is so is because the book of Genesis, undoubtedly written by some Jewish Rabbi of the past would certainly be biased in his understanding of history between the two forefathers. There would be in him, whoever he was, the desire to paint his own ancestry, that is the seed of Isaac, in the brightest of colors, whereby either purposely or inadvertently condemning the rival (I.e. Ishmael) as the negative end of the spectrum. In other words, a Jew most certainly wrote Genesis, so Isaac, the father of the Jews and Abraham’s son, is presented in this blessed light, and Ishmael, the father of the Arabs is whereby presented in somewhat dark euphemisms, and foisted on him is the subtle racism and condescending attitude of the author.
This being said, it is evident that my own assumptions are true, because of the many gaps and inconsistencies which are clues left to us by the True and Almighty God in the Biblical account, which point us in the direction of the truth (I.E. of the Islamic version.)

1. Abraham (saas) was told by God that a Great Nation would come from him. (Genesis 12:2-3)

2. Sarah, Abraham’s wife doesn’t bear children at first. (Genesis 16:1)

3. Sarah whereby allowed Abraham to MARRY Hagar (Genesis 16:3) -This defeats the evangelical claim that Ishmael was illegitamite. Hagar conceives Ishmael. (genesis 16:4)

4. Later Sarah has Isaac. (Genesis 21:2)

So far so good. The story here is quite clear. A Prophecy for a great nation was said to come from Abraham. After Sarah seemingly cannot conceive, Hagar becomes Abraham’s second wife and conceives Ishmael. Later Sarah actually does conceive and has Isaac.

Biblical points which hold true to the Islamic perception of Ishmael and the pure lineage of Muhammad (saas):

1. Ishmael was Abraham’s first son. (Genesis 16:4)

2. God said that Hagar’s seed would be multiplied exceedingly. (Genesis 16:10)

3. God said Ishmael was blessed! (Genesis 17:20)

4. Ishmael is clearly called ‘Abraham’s seed’ by God. (Genesis 21:13)

4. God repeats His promise to make Ishmael a great nation FIVE TIMES! (Genesis 15:4) (Genesis 16:10) (Genesis 17:20) (Genesis 21:13) (Genesis 21:18)


From here the Islamic version and the Biblical account part ways. The Muslim holds that it was in fact Ishmael who had the covenant and not Isaac, whereas the bible states the opposite. The Muslim holds that it was Ishmael who was to be sacrificed and not Isaac, and again, the Bible states the opposite. The Muslim version states that both Isaac and Ishmael were pure blameless children of Abraham, both revered, whereas in the Biblical account, Isaac is revered and Ishmael is seen as a mean-spirited outcast. Let us review the shameful and undoubtedly corrupted view of Ishmael in the Bible:

1. Ishmael is called a ‘wild donkey of a man’: (Genesis 16:12)
2. Ishmael and his descendants are going to be known as troublemakers (Genesis 16:12)
3. Ishmael is considered illegitamite (This is a Christian claim which no Bible verse supports.)
4. Ishmael makes fun of Isaac and teases him: (Genesis 21:9)
5. Ishmael and his mother are cast out from Abrahams’ family (Genesis 21:10)

Now let us lay these preposterous and slanderous claims to rest.

Ishmael a wild donkey of a man?

This is where it becomes evident that the prejudice of the author seeps through. The Christian must remember that the Islamic view of the Bible is that it is corrupted, and history attests this, especially that of the Old Testament. God himself attests this in the Old Testament, saying, "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.” (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8) -So it is admitted within the Bible itself, that the Old Testament is corrupted. No independent scholar accepts the preposterous view that the first 5 books of the Bible were written by Moses as evangelicals claim. This indeed would be quite impossible because otherwise Moses refers to himself in the third person and even writes about his own death and the month that follows it.
Therefore, if the Islamic view of the Bible is that it is corrupted (Not wrong, but not always right either) then it is very well possible, from this viewpoint that the entire story of Ishmael and Isaac is skewed, handled malisciously from the pen of some overzealous rabbi who could not ignore fully his own prejudice and wishes, but yet also could not ignore fully the facts of history, being that both Ishmael and Isaac were blessed, revered and of highly esteemed moral character. Starting from this point we can see through the authors slanders and see to the truth, and that is that this particular verse, that is the verse of Ishmael being a ‘wild donkey’ of a man is an overly obvious forgery, and opinion of whoever the mildly racist author of this book is. –And his intent is quite clear. He wants to prove that the lineage of the Jews is pure, and that no non-jew could ever partake in the pure lineage of Abraham. This is undoubtedly the authors intention, because he goes to great lengths to ‘prove’ it. Consider the ‘all-to-convenient’ verbiage of Sarah as interjected by the author: “Wherefore she said to Abraham, ‘Cast out this bondwoman and her son: For the son of a bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.’” (21:10).
As to the authors intention to show that the blood and lineage of the Jewish people is untainted, consider the fact that according to the Bible, Abraham and Sarah were brother and Sister! (Genesis 20:12.) This same author is the one who insulted the Prophet Lot by saying he had an incestuous drunken relationship with his two daughters, (Genesis 19:36) And Jacob was married to two sisters at the same time: (Genesis 29:28). The intention is clear, that the author of Genesis is either a pervert obsessed with incest, or he slanders honorable prophets with false stories of Incest in order to show that the blood of Isaac and his descendants (The Jews) is pure. It is for this reason the author feels the need to slander Ishmael and foist on him the false story of being ‘cast out’ of the family of Abraham. –It is also clearly, based on the evidence, a big lie. Ishmael was not a wild donkey of a man, but the author of Genesis sure was!

Ishmael and his descendants will ‘be against all men?’


The Bible says of Ishmael: “…his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” (Genesis 16:12)

In recent times this is probably the most oft-repeated verse against Ishmael and the Muslims used by Christians to prove a plethora of points. All one needs to do is point to the news to see that seemingly Ishmael’s seed truly is ‘against all men’ and ‘all men are against him.’ It is, to them, proof positive that the Bible is the word of God.
But there is a problem with this theory, and that is quite simply that only recently could this be applied. It wasn’t until the decline of the Ottomon Empire in the 1700’s that the Islamic world experienced a regression leading to a downward spiral of corruption, hopelessness, and violence.
One need not point out the fact that the oldest and indeed one of the first colleges on earth was founded by Muslims and is still on the earth today (Al-Azhar.) It is evident that whilst Europe was sunk in the dark ages, the civilized Muslims revived the learning of Aristotle and Plato, who otherwise would have been forgotten. There was a time when Baghdad, for example, was called, ‘The greatest city on earth.’ -And this title was given it by European scholars. Was it because the Arabs of Baghdad were mindless killers against all men? Of course not! It was because they were civilized learners who enjoyed a thriving economy! In fact, it was the Muslims who saved the Christians in their lands from the conquests of invaders, and it was the Turkish Muslims who later protected the Jews who fled persecution from Spain. Was it not the Muslim Salahaddin who granted all Christians in Jerusalem amnesty despite that fact that when Muslims were run out of Jerusalem years earlier the Christians boiled Muslim children alive in pots?
So there is well over a thousand years of the Muslim empire (now known as the Golden age of Islam) in which this whimsical sentence in the Bible was utterly false, and any attempt to apply it to Muslims would be deemed laughable by even the Christians! So what is more logical? To say this verse is true, when it has only been true for the past 100 years at best, which represents not even a glimmer in the existence of Islam, or to say that this is the interjection of some ancient Jew who had, as seen above, his own wicked intentions?

Ishmael is considered illegitimite?

This one I really don’t get. The Bible clearly states that Hagar and Abraham were married. (Genesis 16:3) Abraham is also spoken of in highly respected terms in the Bible? How is it that this highly respected Prophet had a child with a woman whom he was married to, and by the logic of some evangelicals this = illigetamite?
Of course not! So how can this be deemed an instance with which to judge Ishmael and say he was therefore excluded from the covenant? Based on what we have seen so far, we need not even address the last two biblical accounts of Ishmael teasing Isaac and whereby being cast out, as this is another obvious forgery by the baised author, whoever he was.

The Bible Had Ishmael and Isaac Confused!

The most common question to be asked by the Christian then is, how can the Muslims believe that Ishmael was to be sacrificed and not Isaac, and that Ishmael got the covenant, when the Bible clearly states otherwise? Well, not to beat a dead horse, but the Muslim view of the Bible is that it is corrupted. So automatically, any story which contradicts Islamic teachings we view with skepticism. As seen already, the author of Genesis, where we find the account of Ishmael and Isaac, is also extremely baised. These facts alone are a red flag to the logical thinkers that just to accept this story as 100% authentic as it is presented in the Bible would be a great error.
With that being said, let us examine the story in the Bible again, and show that the author made some grave errors in his writing which proves that Ishmael and Isaac were confused:

The Bible states that Abraham was 99 years old when Ishmael was circumcised. Ishmael was 13 at the time. (Genesis 17:24-27)

Exactly one year later Isaac is born. (Genesis 21:4-5) So if Abraham was 99 when Ishmael was circumcised a year earlier, that would mean when Isaac is born, he is 100 years old, and Ishmael is 14.

Then comes the story of the sacrifice in the Bible: In Genesis 22, God tells Abraham to take ‘Thine ONLY son Isaac…’ -WHAT? Ishmael is 14 at the time? Why does the Bible refer to Isaac as Abrahams ONLY son? Many Christians will say that this is because God here is making it clear that Isaac is the only heir to the covenant, and that is why God refers to Isaac as ‘The ONLY son..’ but God clearly calls Ishmael the seed of Abraham according to Genesis 21:13, so such conclusions are impossible. The only conclusion is that the author of Genesis had Ishmael and Isaac confused.

Consider when Ishmael is cast out with Hagar into the desert in Genesis 21. What are the descriptions of Ishmael? Pay close attention to the following descriptions:

A. Ishmael is tucked under shrubs (Genesis 21:15)
B. He is called a ‘lad’ (Genesis 21:18, 20)
C. Hagar holds Ishmael in ONE HAND (Genesis 21:18)

Clearly the author is referring to an infant. But Ishmael is 14 at the time, how would he be tucked under shrubs and held in one hand of a weak woman who was dying of thirst? Why is he called a lad? Would this not more aptly apply to the infant Isaac who was only a year old and not to Ishmael who is a teenager?
peace!
Reply

hijab_queen
07-25-2007, 09:56 PM
mmm...... u seem really interesting, after reading the discussion, it seems as though u know alot. are u a christian, a jew or???..... and know that you have the answer to ur questions, whats ur veiw on islaam?
Reply

JAG
07-26-2007, 05:30 AM
I am a Christian. My view on Islam is that it is by far the least laughable of all the religions i have studied other than Christianity. All of you guys seem genuienly nice.

What you guys say makes sense only if you dont believe in the Torah. If you do believe in the Torah then you know the penalty of sin is eternal death, and the only substitute for it is by sacrificing life. And this, in my opinion, makes sense.

However, in Islam, all you have to do is be repentent and ask for forgivness correct? And that just doesnt settle with me too well.

As a Christian i believe God sent His one and only Son as a living sacrifice to destroy the power sin holds over anyone who believes in Him.

You guys dont believe He was crucified. But you do believe there was talk of crucifying Him. And then we have four gospels that say He was crucified. So this just doesnt make sense to me. It would seem obvious that Jesus was crucified and did indeed fulfill the prophecy given in Isaiah 53.

You make it sound like He wussed out and went back to heaven...only to return AGAIN as the Messiah.

In the end, i believe you serve the same God I serve, i just feel there is some terrible miscomunication about Jesus the Christ.
Reply

Grace Seeker
07-26-2007, 02:55 PM
Can anyone sumarize for me the Islamic story of Ishmael? Other than the suggestion that it was Ishmael rather than Issac that Abraham took to offer as a sacrifice, but God spared the child, what else is told of either of them in the Qur'an or the Hadith?

Several times, from several different posters, I have heard Muslims express concern that Ishmael was the first-born son and therefore......What?
....I haven't been really able to tell what it is that people are trying to say rightfully falls to Ishmael other than the privileges of being the recognized first-born son. I know of no Jew or Christian that disputes that Ishmael was Abraham's oldest son.

The covenant that Jews and Christians speak of God making with Abraham has nothing to do with being the first-born, but of being the child that God promised to Abraham that he would have through Sarah. So what is the point of Ishmael being the first-born? What is changed by recognizing that?
Reply

Muslim Woman
07-26-2007, 03:46 PM
Salaam/peace;

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

I have heard Muslims express concern that Ishmael was the first-born son and therefore......What?
.

therefore the blessed Prophet (p) had right over the holy land :sunny: :D



A Holy Land for Whom?

http://theislampath.com/smf/index.ph...sg1349#msg1349

Useful Links:


The Promised Land



Palestine in Focus



Was the Prophet Unjust to the Jews?



Muslim View of Jews and Christians



Jews, Zionists, and Israelis



http://discover.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1172500526343&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE


Reply

ummzayd
07-28-2007, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Can anyone sumarize for me the Islamic story of Ishmael? Other than the suggestion that it was Ishmael rather than Issac that Abraham took to offer as a sacrifice, but God spared the child, what else is told of either of them in the Qur'an or the Hadith?

Several times, from several different posters, I have heard Muslims express concern that Ishmael was the first-born son and therefore......What?
....I haven't been really able to tell what it is that people are trying to say rightfully falls to Ishmael other than the privileges of being the recognized first-born son. I know of no Jew or Christian that disputes that Ishmael was Abraham's oldest son.

The covenant that Jews and Christians speak of God making with Abraham has nothing to do with being the first-born, but of being the child that God promised to Abraham that he would have through Sarah. So what is the point of Ishmael being the first-born? What is changed by recognizing that?

I think it is legitimate to point out that according to the bible Ishmael is cast out and disinherited, and the scribes drive home the point that he and his descendents have no part in the spiritual inheritance of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) either. so he is quite a despised person, notwithstanding God's promise to grant him a great number of descendants.

Why would anyone have a problem with that? well, for a start it falls short of a human standard of basic decency, never mind divine grace. nowhere in the bible is it suggested that Ishmael was cast out and disinherited because he was evil or was deserving in any way of such harsh treatment - it was instigated by Sarah's petty jealousy on behalf of her son and portrayed as a kind of snobbishness that Ishmael, although a son of Abraham pbuh, was also a son of a slave and therefore inferior. the idea that God would condone this kind of thinking (which is implicit in the scriptures) is amazing.

Furthermore, according to Deuteronomy, the firstborn is owed a double portion of inheritance, no matter whether his mother is despised or not. 'For (the firstborn) is the beginning of his strength.' Elsewhere in the Torah Israel (the Israelites) are called by God 'my son, my firstborn son'. And when God punished the Egyptians he struck down their firstborn sons. To be the firstborn son is an honourable distinction elsewhere in the bible, so perhaps that is why Muslims feel it is worth mentioning.

as for the story of Ishmael, I'm afraid I don't have much time but I can tell you that he was brought as a baby to the valley of Mecca by Hagar and Abraham pbuh, who left them there to establish a settlement but returned regularly and when Ishmael was old enough they rebuilt the Ka'aba together (it had originally been built by Adam pbuh but evidently had disappeared). as stated in the bible, Ishmael was sufficiently close to his father's heart that he was informed of Abraham's pbuh final illness and together with his brother Isaac he buried him. Which fact jars a bit when you read it first because up till then the bible tell us a story of a son cast out and disinherited - I remember the first time I read it as a Christian I was startled and actually thought 'how did he get back into the story? I thought he was long gone!'. Did Abraham have a change of heart? How did he know where to find Ishmael? We are not told.

I hope this answers your question about the firstborn issue, sorry if it's all a bit garbled I'm in a rush!

peace
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-07-2007, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;

therefore the blessed Prophet (p) had right over the holy land :sunny: :D

After reading your links, I fail to see the connection between Ishmael and the Prophet having right over the Holy land -- the article stated very specifically that it had nothing to do with ethnicity, but piety.

I also fail to see how that would be relevant today then. Some Muslims are pious, but not all. The same could be said of some Jews and some Christians. So, if that is the standard, the Holy land should have no political leadership, but a place settled by God's people of all lands and beliefs who truly seek to live righteous lives.
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-07-2007, 03:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ummzayd
I think it is legitimate to point out that according to the bible Ishmael is cast out and disinherited, and the scribes drive home the point that he and his descendents have no part in the spiritual inheritance of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) either. so he is quite a despised person, notwithstanding God's promise to grant him a great number of descendants.

Why would anyone have a problem with that? well, for a start it falls short of a human standard of basic decency, never mind divine grace. nowhere in the bible is it suggested that Ishmael was cast out and disinherited because he was evil or was deserving in any way of such harsh treatment - it was instigated by Sarah's petty jealousy on behalf of her son and portrayed as a kind of snobbishness that Ishmael, although a son of Abraham pbuh, was also a son of a slave and therefore inferior. the idea that God would condone this kind of thinking (which is implicit in the scriptures) is amazing.

Furthermore, according to Deuteronomy, the firstborn is owed a double portion of inheritance, no matter whether his mother is despised or not. 'For (the firstborn) is the beginning of his strength.' Elsewhere in the Torah Israel (the Israelites) are called by God 'my son, my firstborn son'. And when God punished the Egyptians he struck down their firstborn sons. To be the firstborn son is an honourable distinction elsewhere in the bible, so perhaps that is why Muslims feel it is worth mentioning.

as for the story of Ishmael, I'm afraid I don't have much time but I can tell you that he was brought as a baby to the valley of Mecca by Hagar and Abraham pbuh, who left them there to establish a settlement but returned regularly and when Ishmael was old enough they rebuilt the Ka'aba together (it had originally been built by Adam pbuh but evidently had disappeared). as stated in the bible, Ishmael was sufficiently close to his father's heart that he was informed of Abraham's pbuh final illness and together with his brother Isaac he buried him. Which fact jars a bit when you read it first because up till then the bible tell us a story of a son cast out and disinherited - I remember the first time I read it as a Christian I was startled and actually thought 'how did he get back into the story? I thought he was long gone!'. Did Abraham have a change of heart? How did he know where to find Ishmael? We are not told.

I hope this answers your question about the firstborn issue, sorry if it's all a bit garbled I'm in a rush!

peace
Thank-you for filling in some of the blanks. So, you view that Ishmael should get a double portion. And if one looks at the landmass that Ishmael's descendants are spread over, verses those of Isaac, does it not appear that they have that and more?

Do Muslims, (whether they be descendants of Ishmael or not) view as true or false that God made a special covenant with the son of Abraham through Sarah? Is this significant?
Reply

Muslim Woman
08-09-2007, 04:25 PM
Salaam/peace;


Grace Seeker :After reading your links, I fail to see the connection between Ishmael and the Prophet having right over the Holy land --

In short : Jewish & Christians holy books tell them that First born son has right over dad’s property ( will get double portion than his younger bro ).



It does not matter if the husband loves this son’s mom or not. So , will u pl. tell me why many ( if not most ) Jewish & Christians think Prophet Ismail (p) had no right over there ?



Some Muslims are pious, but not all
Yes . …may be , that’s the reason Muslims are oppressed in the holy land :(



We won’t get back our right there till we become good Muslims.

if one looks at the landmass that Ishmael's descendants are spread over, verses those of Isaac, does it not appear that they have that and more?


Are u saying that Muslims own more land there than the Jewish people ? If yes , then it’s the first time I heard about it.



I always read/ learnt even from the non-Muslim sources that Zionists are grabbing land there from Muslims.





Do Muslims, (whether they be descendants of Ishmael or not) view as true or false that God made a special covenant with the son of Abraham through Sarah?





I don’t think there is any such verse in holy Quran. Normally Muslims respect all Prophets ( pbut ) including Prophet Isaac / Izak (pbuh).
Reply

Muslim Woman
08-09-2007, 04:35 PM
Salaam/peace;


Israel And Arabs : Conflict or Conciliation?

--late Ahmed Deedat


I have read the book ...did not see the video ..supposed to be interesting.

The Jews have been colonising arab land and brain washing the Christian world by telling them that God promised this land for us.


This lecture is made to clarify most points of views on this topic.

http://www.archive.org/details/IPCII...orConciliation

another link:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmpLj...ew%3Btopicseen



comments of viewers:


SLAUGHTERING PALESTINIANS AT A RATIO OF "8 to 1" AND THEN CLAIMING YOU ARE THE VICTIM` OF TERRORISM AND ANTI~SEMITISM IS SIMPLY LAUGHABLE BY ANY RATIONAL, LOGIC, RELIGION, OR CREED!


NO EXCUSES` ARE CREDIBLE` FOR THESE LEVELS OF TERRORISM.

NOT EVEN THE JEWISH HOLY TORAH ALLOWS KILL~ING BEYOND AN EYE FOR AN EYE!
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-09-2007, 08:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;


Grace Seeker :After reading your links, I fail to see the connection between Ishmael and the Prophet having right over the Holy land
In short : Jewish & Christians holy books tell them that First born son has right over dad’s property ( will get double portion than his younger bro ).



It does not matter if the husband loves this son’s mom or not. So , will u pl. tell me why many ( if not most ) Jewish & Christians think Prophet Ismail (p) had no right over there ?
The Christian understanding (ask Rav if this is also the Jewish understanding) is that in this case God promised to Abraham that he would blessing him, not just with a son (Ishmael, his son through Hagar is no less Abraham's son than Isaac), but that he would bless him with a son through Sarah. Ishmael is not Sarah's son and so cannot inherit what was promised to Abraham's son that God was going to give him through Sarah.

Ishmael may be entitled to the right of the first born, but this cannot negate what God promised to Sarah's son.





Are u saying that Muslims own more land there than the Jewish people ? I always read/ learnt even from the non-Muslim sources that Zionists are grabbing land there from Muslims.
I read the Zionists are doing this too. What I was saying is not that Zionists are treating Palestinians equitably. (Aren't Palestinians descendants of the Phoenicians, not Arabs anyway?) But I was saying that the descendants of Ishmael (aren't these the Arab people) possess land in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan, the Emirates, Kuwait, Lybia, and elsewhere. This is a much greater total landmass than the descendants of Isaac possess in Israel. (And as we value it in today's economy, the wealth of Arab lands is far greater than the wealth of Jewish lands as well.)
Reply

Muslim Woman
08-10-2007, 01:50 AM
Salaam/peace;

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
..... Ishmael is not Sarah's son and so cannot inherit what was promised to Abraham's son that God was going to give him through Sarah.
So God contradicts Himself in OT Deut
21 : 16 ?




Ishmael may be entitled to the right of the first born, but this cannot negate what God promised to Sarah's son.
The Biggest joke in Israel


If u ask any Jew in Israel , Who gave u
Palestine ? ...............without the slightest hesitation every Jew will reply God .

........ But over 75% of the Israeli Jews if questioned , Do u believe in God ? " they immediately respond with NO .

Yet these atheist & agnostic Jews falsely use God's name for their usurpation of the land of the Palestinians.

( few lines from the book : Arab & Israel.....by late Deedat )


I was saying that the descendants of Ishmael (aren't these the Arab people) possess land in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan, the Emirates, Kuwait, Lybia, and elsewhere. This is a much greater total landmass than the descendants of Isaac possess in Israel.
So ???????? Does it mean Muslims can't have their due share in Jerusalem ???

Jews now live in USA , Europe .....if u count those lands ...then not sure who posses bigger land but ........i don't think holy land consists of Kuwait , Lybia , Yemen , USA etc.

should a believer denies the right of Prophet Ismail (p) in the holy land just because his mom was once a slave ?
Reply

Talha777
08-10-2007, 03:05 AM
The Christian understanding (ask Rav if this is also the Jewish understanding) is that in this case God promised to Abraham that he would blessing him, not just with a son (Ishmael, his son through Hagar is no less Abraham's son than Isaac), but that he would bless him with a son through Sarah. Ishmael is not Sarah's son and so cannot inherit what was promised to Abraham's son that God was going to give him through Sarah.
This is correct, Allah made a special covenant with Ibrahim (Alaihi salaam) and his descendants:

And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." (2:124)

However, as you may well know, the covenants and laws which Allah made with the past nations have all been abrogated with the revelation of the Holy Quran and the coming of the final prophet Muhammad (Alaihi salaatu wa salaam). Now the final covenant is to believe in Allah and His Messenger. Regarding the holy land of Jerusalem, it has been promised to the Muslims, and we alone have the divine right to own it:

And He made you inherit their land and their houses and their wealth, and also a land on which you have not yet set foot. And Allah has power over all things. (33:27)
Reply

believer
08-10-2007, 03:49 AM
Salaamualaikum Brother... Peace be with you and your family.


format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
I am a Christian. My view on Islam is that it is by far the least laughable of all the religions i have studied other than Christianity. All of you guys seem genuienly nice. (Thank you)


What you guys say makes sense only if you dont believe in the Torah. If you do believe in the Torah then you know the penalty of sin is eternal death, and the only substitute for it is by sacrificing life. And this, in my opinion, makes sense.

(We believe in all the books (Torah, OT, NT, Injil, Qur'an) God has sent down, We believe in all the Prophets without any distinctions, We believe there are Angels guarding us, We believe in Paradise and Hell, We believe in the Resurrection and the Last Day of Recompense)

(We also believe that Man is created Weak... no amount of ransom is he able to buy or pay the price of his sins unless he is bestowed grace... Grace cannot be achieved by sacrifice. Self Sacrifice is easy... but it is not acceptable to God... God is the only one who can give life and death and punishment and reward... We believe that Even if your sins are as many as the foams of the Oceans... it will be forgiven is you sincerely REPENT and ask for forgiveness to the ONE GOD without any partners or associations, Except the sin of practicing SHIRK. All the books that were sent by God before the Quran talks about geneology, history and good moral values... but the GIST of their story plots are ONE and the same... ALL ADHERES to the Worship, Love, and Praise of only GOD, and he is not 2 nor 3.

The Qur'an can be likened to the latest MEMO from the BIG BOSS... It has the nature and power of SUPERCEDING all the other MEMO's in the past making them all VOID.

However, for scholastic purposes, it is permissible to read them as referrence only, to treat them as equal to the noble Qur'an is going astray from the straight path..)


However, in Islam, all you have to do is be repentent and ask for forgivness correct? (you make it sound too easy... but you can say that.) (And that just doesnt settle with me too well. (definitely... because Repentance Alone is no big deal, not without Genuine Sincerity, Complete Surrender, and TOTAL SUBMISSION to the Authority of a Single GOD is not a small thing)

As a Christian i believe God sent His one and only Son as a living sacrifice to destroy the power sin holds over anyone who believes in Him.

(The Jews won't agree with you since EZRA for them is the only begotten son of GOD)

If there is a son of God... it can only be ADAM... since He has no Mother... ever noticed why Jesus is also often referred to as SON OF MAN?)

You guys dont believe He was crucified. But you do believe there was talk of crucifying Him. (We believe that the story of the crufixion of Christ serves its purpose... but since the real story was revealed by none other than God himself in the Qur'an... we cannot accept the Crucifixion story as the real one... this is a bigger story than it is... we need another thread for it.) And then we have four gospels that say He was crucified. So this just doesnt make sense to me. It would seem obvious that Jesus was crucified and did indeed fulfill the prophecy given in Isaiah 53.

(Real Story of the Crucifixion of the "volunteer Christ" is in the Qur'an...)

You make it sound like He wussed out and went back to heaven...only to return AGAIN as the Messiah. (incorrect... He came in his time as the Messiah... He will come back to settle the score between Him and the Anti-Christ, and also to call the world to embrace Islam... he also has some other missions when He comes back... but, it is not adviseable to be thinking about this. You don't want to hurry up the end of days do you?...)

In the end, i believe you serve the same God I serve, i just feel there is some terrible miscomunication about Jesus the Christ.
(Seek and you shall find, Ask and it shall be given, Knock and the doors shall be openned)

Clearly, the Muslims were given the revelation and the knowledge of the Truth, and the best Proof or Evidence is the Qur'an....

May Allah guide you in your journey to find the Truth...

by the way, congratulations... you already made the first step.
Reply

ZOREENA
08-10-2007, 05:14 PM
Salaam/Hello

Well I was a Catholic until recently...daddy was a muslim and at around 20 or so and im now 24 I became a muslim...well all our fam did...anyway...i was a real catholic as in...nothing u cood tell me wood i believe alwayz had an answer bla bla.. however I decided for once to listen...and be very open minded...as I alreadi knew thingz in the catholic religion didnt quite add up...the trininty...the hail mary where mary is the mother of God...priests and holy powerz and the order which the world was made...and then the scientific stuff thatz in the Quran...and even in the bible it said that a book wood be sent in a foreign tongue...in one nite..i was converted...i coodnt be miss high horse no more....the Quran made too much sense...evn tho i had onli read a few quotez and some paragrapghs in books here and there...

The main difference is that there is no trinity...therez no mother of God..which is the most important...Jesus or no other prophet do we pray to...itz just God...which is sumthing in catholism I didnt quite dig....praying to Jesus for that...St Thingy for that and Saint thingy for this.... Im not disrespectin it...but it was too all over the place...and being told that we just have to believe..blind faith....

TAKEZ A BREATH

but even the likez of the scientific thingz...which have beent he turnin point for a lot of scientistz and doctorz...coz they can simply tell that them sorta thingz...just wernt heard of..not tryna convert ya...just telln ya me stuff!!

salaam..i thing iv gone on a bit here..il regret me post when i re read..lol..but i never turn bak!

bye
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-11-2007, 01:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
should a believer denies the right of Prophet Ismail (p) in the holy land just because his mom was once a slave ?

If you are talking about a believer in the Hebrew scriptures, then the answer is YES. Because your Prophet Ismail was not promised any of the holy land in the Hebrew bible. But it wasn't because his mom was once a slave. That I don't think is relevant. It is because his mom was not Sarah. If Hagar had been a queen it would not change what God said to Abaraham in the Hebrew scriptures:
Genesis 17
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

15 God also said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her."

17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?" 18 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"

19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.
Now, I know you are familiar with this passage. In fact I think you have referred to it before to highlight the important place that Ishmael has. And you are right to highlight that God does not turn his back on Ishmael, even if Sarah does. But the key verse in terms of God's promise to Abraham is found here:
18 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"

19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."
For those who believe that the biblical record is sufficient justification for determining who should be the inheritor of Israel, this verse is all that they need. Birthright means nothing when stacked up against just this one single verse. I'm not saying that I accept it as valid justification, but if I was a Muslim, I certainly wouldn't try to make an argument with a Jew based on the fact that Ishmael should have the birthright as firstborn. That card is going to get trumped by this verse every time.
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-11-2007, 02:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
This is correct, Allah made a special covenant with Ibrahim (Alaihi salaam) and his descendants:

And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." (2:124)

However, as you may well know, the covenants and laws which Allah made with the past nations have all been abrogated with the revelation of the Holy Quran and the coming of the final prophet Muhammad (Alaihi salaatu wa salaam). Now the final covenant is to believe in Allah and His Messenger. Regarding the holy land of Jerusalem, it has been promised to the Muslims, and we alone have the divine right to own it:

And He made you inherit their land and their houses and their wealth, and also a land on which you have not yet set foot. And Allah has power over all things. (33:27)
And if one accepts the Qur'an as true and a valid source to determine property rights, then Muslims should most certainly possess it. In fact, based on that single verse, perhaps Muslims should posses the entire world, for it doesn't specify just Israel, but that Muslims inherite "their" land. Whoever "their" is? And not just "their" land, but even "land on which you have not yet set foot". So, if this is all the backing you need is your own Holy scriptures then I suppose you have all the justification you need (at least for yourself, even if no one else) to claim pretty much whatever land you want. It is either land on which you once already lived and are to inheirt or land on which you have not yet stepped foot. Pretty much conveniently covers all land that I can think of.

Of course, the verse doesn't say which Muslims. It just might refer to Malaysian Muslims, not Palestinians. Indeed, just as few of those in Israel who call themselves Jews live as Jews should in worshipping G-d. So, too, the practices of many of those Palestinians who are clamoring for the land indicates that they are striving to live according to Islam, but more according to politics.

But, be that as it may, it makes little difference. If the Muslims produce their book, and by it refuse to recognize the Hebrew scriptures with regard to Isaac. And Jews produce their book and refuse to recognize the Qur'an's authority. And if the nation states of the world refuse to base their judgment on any religious book. Then we have what we have right now. The strongest takes what he wants and the result is war. Everyone claims to seek peace, yet they all prepare for war. To paraphrase Shakespear: "a pox on all their houses."
Reply

believer
08-11-2007, 10:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZOREENA
Salaam/Hello

Well I was a Catholic until recently...daddy was a muslim and at around 20 or so and im now 24 I became a muslim...well all our fam did...anyway...i was a real catholic as in...nothing u cood tell me wood i believe alwayz had an answer bla bla.. however I decided for once to listen...and be very open minded...as I alreadi knew thingz in the catholic religion didnt quite add up...the trininty...the hail mary where mary is the mother of God...priests and holy powerz and the order which the world was made...and then the scientific stuff thatz in the Quran...and even in the bible it said that a book wood be sent in a foreign tongue...in one nite..i was converted...i coodnt be miss high horse no more....the Quran made too much sense...evn tho i had onli read a few quotez and some paragrapghs in books here and there...

The main difference is that there is no trinity...therez no mother of God..which is the most important...Jesus or no other prophet do we pray to...itz just God...which is sumthing in catholism I didnt quite dig....praying to Jesus for that...St Thingy for that and Saint thingy for this.... Im not disrespectin it...but it was too all over the place...and being told that we just have to believe..blind faith....

TAKEZ A BREATH

but even the likez of the scientific thingz...which have beent he turnin point for a lot of scientistz and doctorz...coz they can simply tell that them sorta thingz...just wernt heard of..not tryna convert ya...just telln ya me stuff!!

salaam..i thing iv gone on a bit here..il regret me post when i re read..lol..but i never turn bak!

bye

Alhamdulillah! Subhana-allah! Sister!

That is a very inspiring testament... you have beriefly summed up the main points why all other religion doesn't make sense. Truly, you have been guided and you have acknowledged Truth once it has been given to you. Real success is with those who believe when truth came to them.

May Allah bless you and your family always and guide you always to the striaght path!.. . Ameen!
Reply

Muslim Woman
08-12-2007, 01:45 AM
Salaam/peace;

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
...Because your Prophet Ismail was not promised any of the holy land in the Hebrew bible.

regarding Bible , Ismail (p) is not a Prophet but only an unwanted child of Prophet Abraham (p) ..who was wrongly born before Isaac (p) ? ??

I guess , many Jews & Christian believe he was not even a legal child ????

Birthright means nothing when stacked up against just this one single verse.

why birthright means nothing ????? It was God who gave all Firstborn sons the right ......so why Ismail (p) will be an exception ???


I'm not saying that I accept it as valid justification,
why ??

...I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
where it says that firstborn son will be deprived from inheritance ??

may be , second son of Abraham ( p ) will be the Prophet of the chosen people but only Jews will live there ???? Does this verse says so ???

So many Christians live in the holy land ....do u think they have any right to live there ? If yes , how ?


so many disagreements between Jews , Christian , Muslims :cry: ....do we have to wait till last day for all these matters settled down ? :omg:
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-13-2007, 03:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;

regarding Bible , Ismail (p) is not a Prophet but only an unwanted child of Prophet Abraham (p) ..who was wrongly born before Isaac (p) ? ??
Regarding Ishmael, in the Bible he is not a prophet. But neither are Abaraham, Isaac, or Jacob.

I guess , many Jews & Christian believe he was not even a legal child ????
Actually I never think of that one way or the other. If you were to ask me if he was illegitimate, I would only be able to think in terms of the culture I live in today, and that is irrelevant with respect to Ishamael. As I understand Abraham's culture, he would have been a true son of Abraham. Even Sarah recognized this, which is why Sarah suggested that Abraham try to have a son via her handmaiden, Hagar.



why birthright means nothing ????? It was God who gave all Firstborn sons the right ......so why Ismail (p) will be an exception ???
I didn't say that birthright means nothings. (If I did I was too extreme in my word choice.) My point was, that in this case, the promise of the covenant that God made with Abraham to have a son with his wife Sarah trumps the culture of the firstborn.

There are other instance of the blessing going not to the first born but to a later born child in the history of Israel, the most notable being the sons and grandsons of Isaac himself.

Isaac had twin sons Esau and Jacob. As they were born Esau's foot was delivered first and the midwife tied a string around the ankle to identify him. But then the foot was withdrawn and Jacob was born. Nonetheless, Esau is recognized as the firstborn, but Jacob gains Isaac's blessing.

Jacob had 12 sons and several wives. His favorite wife's oldest son, Joseph, is the one that received Jacob's favor. But Joseph was not the oldest son, and the older sons were all jealous of the attention that Jacob gave Joseph.

So, it seems that there are lots of exceptions not just Ishmael. And as the nation of Israel takes it's name from that fact that Jacob had his name changed to Israel by God and they are descendants of these sons of Israel, it seems highly unlikely that you are going to find a Jew who looks on birth order as more important that what God personally promises.





where it says that firstborn son will be deprived from inheritance ??
I don't think you are listening. I'm not talking about depriving anyone of anything. Where does it say that Ishmael should inherit this piece of land rather than that piece of land?

may be , second son of Abraham ( p ) will be the Prophet of the chosen people but only Jews will live there ???? Does this verse says so ???
There is nothing I know of in the Bible with regard to the holyland being a gift to anyone based on birthorder. And in terms of it being the land only for the Jews, that does not come out of either the Ishmael or Isaac stories but out of the story of the Exodus, that God would have Moses lead the people to a "Promised" land.

So many Christians live in the holy land ....do u think they have any right to live there ? If yes , how ?
I personally think that religion has nothing to do with one's rights to live any place.


so many disagreements between Jews , Christian , Muslims :cry: ....do we have to wait till last day for all these matters settled down ? :omg:
Not necessarily. If everyone would realize that I was always right and then just do what I said and we would have peace. But it seems that not everyone is willing to give me that much authority. :(
Reply

Muslim Woman
08-16-2007, 03:44 PM
Salaam/peace;

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Regarding Ishmael, in the Bible he is not a prophet. But neither are Abaraham, Isaac, or Jacob.

in my Bible's translation , the word Hazrat is used before Abraham & Isaac (pbut).

Normally we Muslims used this word for Prophet . But also it can be used to address respected religious Muslim leader. I wonder if they are not Prophets in Bible , then why our local Christian society used this word ?

I read in an article that in Muslim majority countries , Christians publish Bible using Islamic words to attract Muslim readers . Is that the reason both Abraham & Isaac ( pbut ) are Hazrats in my Bible ?



which is why Sarah suggested that Abraham try to have a son via her handmaiden, Hagar.
but later Ahraham (p) married her ?? If yes , then is not it better to address her as the respected wife of a blessed person ?


I don't think you are listening.
:-[ :ooh:


I personally think that religion has nothing to do with one's rights to live any place.
:-\


it seems that not everyone is willing to give me that much authority. :(
neither do they give the authority to me ...too bad :'(

verses we all need for this life & the hereafter






God invites [man] unto the abode of peace, and guides him that wills onto a straight way.

-Quran (10:25)
Reply

kwolney01
09-08-2007, 05:57 PM
I think its so nice when non muslims ask questions and really get to know Islam for what it really is. I converted from christianity and I have found a lot of similarites..Jesus (peace be upon him) is mentioned in the Qu'ran more than Muhammad (peace be upon him) is. I hope you learn a lot about Islam. Best Wishes to you
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-17-2007, 08:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;
And to you as well.



in my Bible's translation , the word Hazrat is used before Abraham & Isaac (pbut).

Normally we Muslims used this word for Prophet . But also it can be used to address respected religious Muslim leader. I wonder if they are not Prophets in Bible , then why our local Christian society used this word ?
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are indeed respected religious leaders. In my English Bible the word that is most commonly used to describe them is "patriarch". In many ways they are thought of as the "founding fathers" or "forefathers" of Judaism and the nation of Israel in both a religious and a political sense.

I read in an article that in Muslim majority countries , Christians publish Bible using Islamic words to attract Muslim readers . Is that the reason both Abraham & Isaac ( pbut ) are Hazrats in my Bible ?
You're asking me to draw a conclusion regarding someone I have never meant or spoken to. That probably is not very fair to them or to you. For, I really have no information with regard to anyone's motive. But if pressed, I would say, probably that is NOT the reason. I suspect that it is because in trying to stress the important place of Abraham and Isaac in the life and history of the community that they adopted a word from the language of the culture that they were translating into that they understood to most closely fit their understanding of the role of Abraham and Isaac to the subsequent nations of Judah and Israel and to the Jews of Jesus' day who became the Church.

Sometimes they have to pick words that are not always the right translation of the term in order to get at the idea behind the word, and that may have been what happened here. Let me give you another (true) illustration from the country of Guatemala.

There is a group of Indians in Guatemala for whom some translators were trying to translate the Bible. And they came to a verse in Luke (2:19) where Mary is remembering all of the miraculous events surrounding Jesus' birth, and the verse says: "But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart." And they wanted to translate it into the language spoken by these Guatemalan Indians, but they were having trouble with the last word of the verse. It is καρδια (kardia) from which we get English words like cardia or cardiac. And so in English it is translated "heart". And likewise in Spanish the word is "corazon", meaning heart, because in both English and Spanish speaking cultures the heart is often understood to be the place where one's greatest emotions are stored. If you've ever been "in love" you may have even felt that tightness that can grip you in the chest or stomach and if you lost someone dear to you felt like your "heart was breaking".

Well, in Guatemala, these Indians had the same emotional and physiologocial reactions to love as well. It is a universal human condition. But as they grasped their chest or abdomen, they did not sense that the pain or joy they were feeling was located in the organ we call the heart, they who would often hunt birds for food found a organ in the bird that was very close to where they felt this in their own bodies. And this organ was filled with small pea-sized gravel. It was the bird's gizzard. And whenever they felt those pains in their own chest, it made them think of the rocks in the bird's chest cavities. So, they attributed the pain not to the heart, which was just another organ like the stomach or instestines, in their common language when they loved a person they loved them with all of their gizzard. If they missed someone, they were not heart-broken, but gizzard-broken. And they stored their most precious memories of people not in their hearts but in their gizzards.

I know that might sound strange to people who have grown up speaking of feeling things with one's heart, but these Guatemalan Indians didn't feel things with their hearts, they felt love and other personal emotions with their gizzards. So, when the Bible translators translated that verse into the dialect of this small group of Guatemalan Indians they had to decide do they say that Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her "heart" -- as this was the best translation of the word that Luke had written? Or do they say that Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her "gizzard" - which was not the word Luke had used, but communicated the idea to these Guatemalan Indians in the way they were most familiar with thinking? Eventually, the translators chose "gizzard" as they decided that Luke chose the word "heart" as a figure of speach for where we feel things most deeply, not because it was the organ that pumps blood through our bodies. And for these Guatemalan Indians, the figure of speech that they used to express the idea that Luke was trying to express was not "heart" but "gizzard", so gizzard was actually the better translation of what Luke was trying to say, even if it wasn't the word he had actually used.

I don't know, but I suspect that some similar process was used in selecting "hazrat" in the Bible passages you are referring to. It wasn't done to attract Muslims as much as the translators were trying to communicate the idea of a person who was a leader of great respect among the people of the religion who were telling his story.
Reply

Sheba
09-18-2007, 09:03 PM
Qatada,

Love your posts. So clear, precise and from Quran...perfect combination.
Reply

MustafaMc
09-19-2007, 11:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Eventually, the translators chose "gizzard" as they decided that Luke chose the word "heart" as a figure of speach for where we feel things most deeply, not because it was the organ that pumps blood through our bodies. And for these Guatemalan Indians, the figure of speech that they used to express the idea that Luke was trying to express was not "heart" but "gizzard", so gizzard was actually the better translation of what Luke was trying to say, even if it wasn't the word he had actually used.
Could the same "mistranslation" have happened in the translation of the word that became "Son" when applied to Jesus because we know that Allah can not "father" or "sire" a son with a woman as we understand the process.
Reply

Muslim Woman
09-20-2007, 08:50 AM
Salaam/peace;

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
...


Sometimes they have to pick words that are not always the right translation of the term in order to get at the idea behind the word....... And for these Guatemalan Indians.... gizzard was actually the better translation of what Luke was trying to say, .

they could put the word heart & within bracket / in explanation/ footnotes --they could used gizzard to give them a clear picture.


After many years , if anybody translates the line in to English or other language , s/he will surely make a mistake & may be there won't be any learned person to explain them the background .


Verses we need for this life & hereafter


Ayah Of The Day
All that is in the heavens and all that is on earth extols God's limitless glory:

His is all dominion, and to Him all praise is due;

and He has the power to will anything.

-Quran (64:1)
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-24-2007, 02:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;

they could put the word heart & within bracket / in explanation/ footnotes --they could used gizzard to give them a clear picture.


After many years , if anybody translates the line in to English or other language , s/he will surely make a mistake & may be there won't be any learned person to explain them the background .

After many years, if anybody translates the line into English or other language, hopefully they will be translating from the original Greek and not from the Guatemalan Indian language translation.

Translating from a version that is already itself a translation usually results in a mistranslation, as we can see with some of the older English translations that depended on Latin translations rather than the original Greek and Hebrew.
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-24-2007, 03:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Could the same "mistranslation" have happened in the translation of the word that became "Son" when applied to Jesus because we know that Allah can not "father" or "sire" a son with a woman as we understand the process.

I don't think that "Son" is a mistranslation because the Greek phrase υιος του θεου (huios tou theou) is very simple to translate. υιος = son and [/i]θεου[/i] = God and του is the definite article "the". The only thing that is tricky is to pay attention to the declension and case. In this instance του θεου is in the genitive case which expresses possession. In certain grammatical constructions the genitive has other means, such as agency, but this is such a simple construction that it is quite easy to recognize that "son of God" (or literally "son of (the) God") is the proper English translation of the Greek phrase.

What you might wish to consider but didn't touch on is the possibility not of mistranslation, but misinterpretation of a correct translation. Remember, interpretation involves more than just getting the right word, but understanding what is meant by those words. Mustafa, you've been in my house and you have seen pictures on my walls of persons that I did not sire that I still call my children. Luke records a geneology of Jesus that goes from Joseph back to Adam:
Luke 3
23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath,
the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,
the son of Josech, the son of Joda,
27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,
the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,
the son of Neri, 28the son of Melki,
the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,
the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,
the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon,
the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,
the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
31the son of Melea, the son of Menna,
the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,
the son of David, 32the son of Jesse,
the son of Obed, the son of Boaz,
the son of Salmon,[d] the son of Nahshon,
33the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,[e]
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
35the son of Serug, the son of Reu,
the son of Peleg, the son of Eber,
the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan,
the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem,
the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, 38the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.
(Let's leave aside some of the obvious anomalies in the list for another thread so that we can focus on the interpretation issue at the moment.)

Even if you don't speak Greek, you can probably see one of the interesting things in this passage:

23και αυτος ην ιησους αρχομενος ωσει ετων τριακοντα ων υιος ως ενομιζετο ιωσηφ του ηλι

24του μαθθατ του λευι του μελχι του ιανναι του ιωσηφ

25του ματταθιου του αμως του ναουμ του εσλι του ναγγαι

26του μααθ του ματταθιου του σεμειν του ιωσηχ του ιωδα

27του ιωαναν του ρησα του ζοροβαβελ του σαλαθιηλ του νηρι

28του μελχι του αδδι του κωσαμ του ελμαδαμ του ηρ

29του ιησου του ελιεζερ του ιωριμ του μαθθατ του λευι

30του συμεων του ιουδα του ιωσηφ του ιωναμ του ελιακιμ

31του μελεα του μεννα του ματταθα του ναθαμ του δαυιδ

32του ιεσσαι του ιωβηδ του βοος του σαλα του ναασσων

33του αδμιν του αρνι του εσρωμ του φαρες του ιουδα

34του ιακωβ του ισαακ του αβρααμ του θαρα του ναχωρ

35του σερουχ του ραγαυ του φαλεκ του εβερ του σαλα

36του καιναμ του αρφαξαδ του σημ του νωε του λαμεχ

37του μαθουσαλα του ενωχ του ιαρετ του μαλελεηλ του καιναμ

38του ενως του σηθ του αδαμ του θεου
The term υιος is used just once and applied to the whole list of names. Each of the other persons is baiscally "of ___________". Thus, Adam is "of God" (or the "son of God") in the same way that Isaac is "of Abraham" (or "the son of Abraham"). Now Muslims, Jews, and Christians don't agree on a whole lot, but we do agree on two things. (1) God created, he did not sire, Adam. (2) Abraham did in fact sire Isaac. Yet in one passage, one sentence, we see this term used to refer to both events.

Why is that important? It means that to say that Jesus is "the son of God" does NOT mean that one is saying that God sired Jesus anymore than it is to say that God sired Adam. But it is to say that Jesus is "of" God in the same way that Isaac is "of Abraham" and Adam is "of God". Well, how is that? They both come from, have their genesis, their beginnings, in the one they are said to be "of".

So, the phrase "Son of God" could mean several different things. It could mean that God sired Jesus -- but it doesn't. It could mean that God created Jesus -- but it doesn't mean that either. It simply means that Jesus is "of" God. That he comes from God, that he has his beginning with God in some way. To place futher interpretation into that term, one has to go beyond the mere words of the text and see how it is used in the context of the larger passages of which it is apart. It is in that reading, not the three-word phrase, that we see the divinity of Jesus being delineated and the term "Son of God" come into use as a title to mark his divinity for it is used and applied to Jesus in a completely different way than it is to Adam and others who are termed "sons of God" or "children of God".
Reply

Muslim Woman
09-25-2007, 04:22 PM
Salaam/peace;

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
... hopefully they will be translating from the original Greek and not from the Guatemalan Indian language translation.

.

but what if they do ? :p


Apparetly there was a spelling mistake in Quran when in chapter Araf , verse 69 ( 7: 69) the word Bastatan was written with Swad not seen. This spelling was not used by Arabs in the form we see in Quran .



Even the same word was written with seen not with swad in chpater 2 , verse 247.



when the companions were surprised & asked Prophet (p) about it , ans was ' revelation came to me like that ...so write it as Angel Gabriel (p) taught.

In last more than 1000 yrs , no one dared to ''correct ' the spelling mistake (!).

Only God knows why this spelling is different here , there is a human explanation ...if u want to hear , let me know :)

My point is original word should not be changed as words of holy books came from God Almighty .....explanation can be given in bracket.


Verses we need for this world & hereafter

74. Surah Al-Muddathir



30. Over it are nineteen (angels as guardians and keepers of Hell).



31. And We have set none but angels as guardians of the Fire, and We have fixed their number (19) only as a trial for the disbelievers,


in order that the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) may arrive at a certainty [that this Qur'ân is the truth as it agrees with their Books i.e. their number (19) is written in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and the believers may increase in Faith (as this Qur'ân is the truth)


and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Scripture and the believers,


and that those in whose hearts is a disease (of hypocrisy) and the disbelievers may say: "What Allâh intends by this (curious) example ?"


Thus Allâh leads astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none can know the hosts of your Lord but He. And this (Hell) is nothing else than a (warning) reminder to mankind.
Reply

alcurad
11-05-2007, 11:49 PM
something interesting in Grace Seeker's last post, the son of 'the' god is none other than Adam notJesus since that sentence follows Adam's name not Jesus's.
-may god's blessings be upon all the prophhets-
Reply

islamic
11-06-2007, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
I know next to nothing about Islam, so please excuse my ignorance.
hello GUY! As I can read your comments from the first one to the last one on this thread, I draw conclusion that you are not saying the truth on this quotation.

AND, your purpose is NOT to learn more about Islam BUT it's something else.
Reply

Grace Seeker
11-06-2007, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
something interesting in Grace Seeker's last post, the son of 'the' god is none other than Adam notJesus since that sentence follows Adam's name not Jesus's.
-may god's blessings be upon all the prophhets-
You are right that Adam is referred to as being "of God" in this passage. This is exactly what I said above. However, that does not mean that one should infer that Jesus is therefore not "of God". Indeed when we consider a phrase like "son of ________", it really can mean many different things depending on its context. For instance, the Jews today (and in Jesus' day) consider themselves sons (and daughters) of Abraham. Yet we know that none of them can claim that Abraham was their biological Father. So then why did they make that claim?
"Abraham is our father," they answered. (John 8:39)
One could mean that Abraham was their ancestor and thus father in that he was their great-great-great-great-...-great-grandfather. But I don't think that is the meaning. It appears that it doesn't have anything to do with biology, genetics, or bloodlines. Look what Jesus says about it:
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. (Matthew 3:9)
Surely there would be no bloodlines in children who were raised up from rocks. But Jesus says they would still be "children of Abraham". So, in what sense would that be? Paul gives us a big clue in writing:
He [Christ] redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. (Galatians 3:14)
Sometimes when the Bible speaks of a person as another's son, it means so in a spiritual sense. Examples of that include both Peter and Paul refering to Mark and Timothy, respectively, as "my son" (see 1 Peter 5:13 and 1 Corinthians 4:17). When meant this way, the claiming of one person as a son would not preclude the same term from being applied to another. Indeed the Bible refers not only to Jesus as God's son (in several places - Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Hebrews 5:5, 2 Peter 1:17 being just a few) but also to humans as God's sons, God's children (see 1 John 3:1-2, Philippians 2:15).

So, there remains two questions:
1) In what manner, if any, is Jesus being spoken of as the "son of God" in the passage from Luke 3 (cited above)?
2) Is the sonship of Jesus referred to in the Bible in any way unique and differentiated from other references to sonship?

In the first, if one understands what I was saying with regard to the Greek grammar, the passage is indeed saying that Jesus is the son of God. It uses a particular aspect of Greek grammar to communicate that. It begins with supposed biological relationship between Jesus and Joseph. It then traces how each of the men mentioned is the son of the next by the simple Greek word "tou", which in this case just means "of" (literally, "of the") to indicate that each man is of the next in the genealogical listing, implying that they are the offspring of them. Of course when we get to Adam, though Adam is not the offspring of God, he is still "of" God, having been created by God. All that Luke is saying by the list at all is to place Jesus in the context of the rest of humanity, saying that Jesus is one of us -- a child of Adam and a child God just as you and I are. There are several strong theological reasons that I believe Luke wanted to make that point, but the only thing that is important for this discussion is to ascertain whether in doing so that Luke was also claiming that Jesus was only like the rest of us. I think the answer to that is categorically NO. Luke not only refers to Jesus with the title of "Son of Man" (Luke 22:48), but also with other titles such as "the Christ" (Luke 24:26), "son of David" (Luke 20:41), "Savior" (Luke 2:11), and "Son of God" (Luke 22:70). When taken together, these are titles that definitely make Jesus unique.

Second, the sonship of Jesus is a unique sonship. As many different people are properly termed the "son of Abraham", a case can also be made to call many different people "sons or daughters of God". I would even submit to you that all who belong to God can, and perhaps should, be properly so called.

But Jesus' sonship is unique. When Jesus is referred to as THE "son of God", except on rare occassion, it is not with the same meaning as would be meant by calling you or me A "son of God". The whole context of the statement is generally different. (Though as I have now noted twice, once in this post and once in the above post, Luke's reference in 3:38 is not one of those.)

When Jesus is called the "son of God", it is not generally a description of his origins at all. Rather, it is a title. As a description, it is a description of his character, his nature, the essence of his being. Satan understands this and challenges Jesus to reveal it when he tries to tempt him in the wilderness:
If you are the Son of God.... (Luke 4:3 and 4:9)
The statements are phrased in such a way that, though couched in if/then terminology, there really isn't any question as to Satan's understanding of who Jesus is. The devil is actually acknowledging who and what Jesus is; he is the Son of God. So it is that when Jesus casts out demons, they recognize him and begin to announce it before Jesus silences them:
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)
Early in Jesus' ministry, Jesus did not go around announcing who he was. His parents knew (see Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:20-23), but, for the most part, Jesus basically let people figure it out for themselves:
Matthew 16
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.
But Jesus leaves hints all over the place for, as he would put it, those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.


Consider that there are certain things that only God can do. Yet we see Jesus doing them and speaking of them in reference to himself-- Jesus forgave sins; he spoke of God has his Father in a unique way that others understood to be claiming equality with God; he pictured himself as the ultimate judge in heaven between the righteous and the unrighteous; Jesus declared himself "Lord of the Sabbath" (a breaking of both the first and 4th commandments unless he is God); Jesus even presented himself as pre-existent:

Matthew 9
2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"

4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7And the man got up and went home.
John 5
16So, because Jesus was doing these things [healing miracles] on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Matthew 25
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Luke 6
1One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to pick some heads of grain, rub them in their hands and eat the kernels. 2Some of the Pharisees asked, "Why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"
3Jesus answered them, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions." 5Then Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

John 8
54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

And though we can see that Jesus did confess that he was the son of God to people:
He trusts in God. Let God rescue him [Jesus] now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.' (Matthew 27:43)

They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He [Jesus] replied, "You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:70)

Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel."
Jesus said, "You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that." (John 1:49-50) (Note that Jesus accepts and does not correct this statement of Nathanael's.)

The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he [Jesus] claimed to be the Son of God." (John 19:7)

The gospel writers never put those words on Jesus' own lips, rather they let others make that declaration, which they themselves also affirm: "these (pericopes from Jesus' life) are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (John 20:31).


And John goes on to affirm that not only is Jesus the Son of God, but he is THE UNIQUE son of God. He is not a son in the same way that other humans might be spoken of as being children of God. No, Jesus' sonship is unlike ours in that he is (to use theological language) actually very God from very God. Thus it is that John, in introducing Jesus to us in his gospel, speaks of him in this very theological way, writing: "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known." (John 1:18) The word behind "One and Only" is the Greek term "μονογενης" (or monogenes). Now "monogenes" can have the simple meaning of "only" as in the way Luke uses it a few times. But it is also used to speak of Isaac as Abraham's "only" son (see Hebrews 11:17). Obviously we know, and the biblical writer knew, that Abraham had more than one son. What he meant by referring to Isaac as the "monogenes" son of Abraham is not "only", but "unique". Isaac was unique in that he was born as the result of God's promise to Abraham that Sarah, though past child-bearing age, would give to him a son. Isaac was unique in that regard. So it is that when John speaks of Jesus as the "monogenes" son of God, that he isn't trying to say "only begotten" in the way that we understand the KJV translation of that passage, he is trying to say he is in a unique way the "one and only", as the NIV translation puts it. And this is why we see the same term used in John's introduction to his gospel: "The Word [already identified in John 1:1 as being God] became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

Thus, I believe that we can see that the use of the title "son of God" in reference to Jesus, is a unique reference to the nature of Jesus as being "of God". Not biologically, not in a larger familial sense (that we might all also share), but in a unique way that fits Jesus alone. As the one who is actually God himself: "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only [that is Jesus], who is at the Father's side, has made him known." (John 1:18)
Reply

firmhandhold
11-06-2007, 11:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
Wow, thanks guys, all of that helped a lot. I am very intriged about your faith.

I still have a few more questions though.
You are welcome!

format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
1) I understand Islam doesn't say Jesus is God, but does it say Jesus is the Son of God?
Islamic view point about Jesus Christ (pbuh) is very simple and straight.

1) We Muslims believe that Jesus (pbuh) was the Messiah.
2) Jesus Christ (pbuh) was one of the mightiest Messengers of God.
3) Jesus Christ (pbuh) was born of a virgin Mary without any male's intervention.
4) Jesus Christ (pbuh) healed those born blind and leppers by the permission of Allah.
5) Jesus Christ (pbuh) was neither killed nor was he crucified, but God raised him unto himself.
6) Jesus Christ (pbuh) will come again before the last day.

format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
2) How much of the New Testament do Muslims believe in? All of it? None of it? Or just the parts that are also in the Qur’an?
We Muslims believe that whatever was revealed to Jesus Christ (pbuh) was truth, and was from God. The New Testament Christians are having, was written centuries after Jesus' ascendance to heaven. Even Christians scholars agree that New Testament is not what Jesus Christ (pbuh) had been teaching to his followers.

format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
3) Where is Islam in relation to Judaism. I have always learned that it stemed from Isaac and Ishmael - Isaac carried on Judaism, Ishmael's decendents were Muslim.
Judaism is derived from "Judah", a tribe of Children of Israel. The religion practiced by Prophet Israel (pbuh) and his children was Islam.

Even Abraham (pbuh) was a Muslim (as Muslim means one who submits will to God). Abraham (pbuh) and all prophets after him were Muslims, even their followers were submitters to God (which means that they were Muslims).

The God who revealed “Torah” to Prophet Moses (pbuh), “Injeel (Gospel)” to Prophet Jesus (pbuh), He revealed the Qur’an to Prophet (pbuh).

Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was the last prophet of the God of Israel.


format_quote Originally Posted by JAG
4) I really know next to nothing about Muhammad. Can you explain his story to me?
Prophet Mohammad's (pbuh) story is not such a short one that can be explained here.

Click here to know about Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)http://www.islamway.com/mohammad/?lang=eng
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