Taliban getting whipped

[MTAFFI]

75 Taliban killed in Afghan clashes By NOOR KHAN, Associated Press Writer
Tue Jul 24, 6:36 AM ET

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - Troops killed at least 75 militants in three separate battles in southern Afghanistan, while the Taliban extended the deadline for the lives of 23 South Korean hostages until Tuesday evening.

South Korea's president appealed for calm as the deadline neared. Afghan elders and clerics were trying to negotiate with militants holding the hostages in central Afghanistan.

In southern Helmand province, Afghan troops ambushed by militants called in airstrikes and fought back with small-arms and mortar fire, the U.S.-led coalition said. The coalition said at least 36 insurgents were killed in the fighting Monday, but no Afghan or coalition troops were hurt.

In Uruzgan province, police clashed for three days with militants blocking the road leading to Kandahar province, leaving 26 militants and two policemen dead, said Wali Jan, the Uruzgan deputy highway police chief. NATO-led and Afghan army troops joined the battle Tuesday, reopening the road for civilians traffic, he said.

Another 13 suspected militants were killed in Kandahar province, the Defense Ministry said.

The battles took place in remote and dangerous parts of Afghanistan, and the death tolls could not be independently confirmed.

Qari Yousef Ahmadi, who claims to speak for the Taliban, said the militants had extended the deadline on the fate of the kidnapped South Koreans another day after the Afghan government refused to release any of the 23 Taliban prisoners the insurgents want freed.

The militants have pushed back their ultimatum at least three times.

"If the government won't accept these conditions, then it's difficult for the Taliban to provide security for these hostages, to provide health facilities and food," Ahmadi told The Associated Press by satellite phone. "The Taliban won't have any option but to kill the hostages."

Though some of Ahmadi's statements turn out to be true, he has also made repeated false claims, calling into question the reliability of his information.

A five-member delegation from Ghazni province traveled to a remote area of Qarabagh district to try to secure the Koreans' freedom, said Khwaja Mohammad Sidiqi, the local police chief.

"Our negotiations are continuing," said Khial Mohammad Husseini, a lawmaker for Ghazni. "I hope that today we will get a good result."

The deputy interior minister, Abdul Khaliq said Afghanistan was not prepared to make a deal "against our national interest and our constitution," though he did not explicitly rule out freeing any prisoners.

South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun appealed for calm, saying at a Cabinet meeting "it's not a time to be hastily optimistic nor to be prematurely pessimistic about the outcome."

"It's important to resolve this in a calm and cool-headed attitude," he said. "The most important goal at this time is to get them back safely."

The South Korean Defense Ministry said it asked the Afghan military to refrain from conducting operations around the area where the hostages were believed held to avoid provoking the kidnappers.

The South Korean hostages, including 18 women, were kidnapped on Thursday while riding on a bus through Ghazni on the Kabul-Kandahar highway, Afghanistan's main thoroughfare.

More than 100 villagers in Ghazni demonstrated for their release Tuesday.

Violence has spiked sharply in Afghanistan the last two months. More than 3,500 people, mostly militants, have been killed in insurgency-related violence this year, according to an Associated Press tally of casualty figures provided by Western and Afghan officials.

In other violence, a roadside blast killed four U.S. soldiers in eastern Paktika province on Monday, said Gov. Mohammad Ekram Akhpelwak.

Norway said one if its soldiers was killed in Logar province, and NATO said a sixth soldier was killed in the south, though the soldier's nationality was not released.

The deaths bring to 114 the number of Western soldiers killed in Afghanistan this year, including 54 Americans, according to the AP count.

Also Tuesday, Afghanistan's last king was to be buried in a hilltop shrine in Kabul next to his late wife and other members of the royal family in a ceremony attended by foreign and Afghan dignitaries.

Mohammad Zahir Shah, who oversaw four decades of relative peace before a 1973 palace coup ousted him and war shattered his country, died Monday at 92.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070724/...as/afghanistan

even their leaders are killing themselves in fear

Pakistan militant leader kills himself By ABDUL SATTAR, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 35 minutes ago



QUETTA, Pakistan - A former Guantanamo Bay inmate who led pro-Taliban militants in Pakistan after his release died Tuesday when he blew himself up with a grenade to avoid arrest, police said.

The death of Abdullah Mehsud is a boost for President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, who faces growing U.S. pressure to crack down on Islamic militants battling security forces on both sides of the Afghan border.

Intelligence agents cornered Mehsud overnight at the home of an Islamist politician in Zhob, police said. The town is 160 miles from the southwestern city of Quetta.

"My information is that Abdullah Mehsud killed himself," Zhob Police Chief Atta Mohammed told The Associated Press. "Thanks be to God that only he was blown up and our men were safe."

Federal Interior Ministry spokesman Javed Iqbal Cheema confirmed Mehsud's death, but provided no details.

U.S.-allied Afghan forces captured Mehsud, who earlier lost a leg fighting for the Taliban, in northern Afghanistan in December 2001. He was held at the prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and it remains unclear why he was released in March 2004.

He quickly took up arms again, leading militants in South Waziristan, a mountainous stronghold for both the Taliban and al-Qaida in Pakistan's lawless tribal belt. Mehsud was also wanted in the 2004 kidnapping of two Chinese engineers, one of whom died in a rescue raid by Pakistani commandos, and escaped a manhunt by the Pakistan army.

Zahid Hussain, an author and expert on Pakistan's militant groups, said the defiance of Mehsud, a rotund man in his early 30s, made him a hero among his fellow militants.

"Even if he wasn't seen, he was an inspiration," Hussain said. "In that way, (his death is) a big gain for the Pakistani forces."

There were new militant attacks Tuesday on Pakistani army posts in North Waziristan. Troops returned fire, an intelligence official said, but no casualties were reported. On Monday, at least 20 militants and two soldiers were killed in fighting.

Militants also detonated dynamite at a municipal office late Monday in Miran Shah, the regional capital, causing damage but no injuries, said the official, who is not allowed to speak on the record to reporters.

Farther north, the beheaded bodies of two soldiers abducted Monday night were found in the Bajur tribal area, said Sardar Yousaf, a local government official.

Violence has flared across Pakistan since a deadly military raid on a radical mosque in the capital of Islamabad earlier this month. More than 300 people have died, most of them security forces.

Much of the trouble has been in North Waziristan, a tribal region where a 10-month-old peace deal with between the government and militants has broken down and the army has redeployed troops backed by helicopters and artillery.

The government still hopes to resurrect the deal, although Washington has described it as a failure that gave breathing to al-Qaida to regroup — and perhaps plot another big attack on the United States.

Arab, Afghan and Central Asian militants suspected of links with al-Qaida as well as Taliban and local militants operate in North and South Waziristan.

A Pakistani intelligence official said Mehsud was intercepted on his way back from Afghanistan's Helmand province, where the official said he led supporters fighting alongside the Taliban against Afghan and U.S. forces.

The intelligence official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to talk to reporters, said Mehsud had been in Afghanistan for more than a year and there was no evidence that he organized the recent violence in Pakistan.

___

Associated Press writers Bashirullah Khan in Miran Shah, Habibullah Khan in Khar and Sadaqat Jan in Islamabad contributed to this report.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070724/...ilitant_leader


Who says we are losing this war in Afghanistan, everyday the Talibans number decreases and the people living there are safer. :thankyou: :p

[Haidar_Abbas]

just wait...dont count the muslims down and out just yet...:peace:

[MTAFFI]

just wait...dont count the muslims down and out just yet...:peace:

I absolutely wouldnt count the Muslims down and out.... just the taliban and al-qaeda is probably on it way out too

[Keltoi]

Unfortunately, this will not free the South Korean hostages. One was killed today. Hopefully they gave him a quick and clean death, instead of those sickening snuff debacles released by Al-Qaeda types.

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[islamirama]

the Koreans disobeyed the law of the nation and thus must pay the price. They were preaching Christianity and thus were arrested. they should be persecuted and made an example of. We do not appreciate illegal wars and invasions of our lands and then sending your missionary's to exploit the poor and whose lives you have ravaged with your barbarism.

[MTAFFI]

the Koreans disobeyed the law of the nation and thus must pay the price. They were preaching Christianity and thus were arrested. they should be persecuted and made an example of. We do not appreciate illegal wars and invasions of our lands and then sending your missionary's to exploit the poor and whose lives you have ravaged with your barbarism.

I am not sure I follow you here....The thread is about the defeat that the Taliban is suffering, it isnt an occupation in Afghanistan and it isnt an illegal war in Afghan either. The Taliban was given an ultimatum, they obviously made the wrong choice otherwise their number wouldnt be diminished and they wouldnt have to hide like goats in the mountains. As for missionaries being in Afghanistan, I cannot speak for them and I do not think our troops being their "asked" them to come to that country, however if you have evidence that proves otherwise, then I would be happy to read over it. My guess, however, is that these missionaries are there because it is the first time that they could go there without having to fear for their lives. (or at least not as much)

[alcurad]

first, it's not a question of how many farmers are killed and then dubbed "Talban" that would decide the victor.
the one's called Taliban today mostly aren't the ones demonized and then fought after 9/11.most of those are training and recruiting in the tribal belt.

secondly, the occupation won't last indefinitely.western people have generally become less accepting of even a slight percentage of their soldiers being killed/injured.besides, the financial cost of the war is taking a toll too.

thirdly, the west might be gaining more than a foothold in Afganistan but that could hardly be said of Iraq, and already tactics and strategies are being imported from there to the Afghan theatre.

there is no comparison between Iraq-where military service was compulsary from a certain age for al males under Saddam, and there is a great pool of individuals with certain skills-and Afghanistan, but the Afghans have been fighting for their country for a very long time against western invasions , the result being they are ready to accept great losses and keep on.
lastly , to us muslims , the outcome has already been decided , we believe in the last prophet and he promised victory at the end .some of his prophecies that have yet to happen imply that Aghans will be among the first peole to support the Mahdi .

[islamirama]

I am not sure I follow you here....The thread is about the defeat that the Taliban is suffering, it isnt an occupation in Afghanistan and it isnt an illegal war in Afghan either. The Taliban was given an ultimatum, they obviously made the wrong choice otherwise their number wouldnt be diminished and they wouldnt have to hide like goats in the mountains. As for missionaries being in Afghanistan, I cannot speak for them and I do not think our troops being their "asked" them to come to that country, however if you have evidence that proves otherwise, then I would be happy to read over it. My guess, however, is that these missionaries are there because it is the first time that they could go there without having to fear for their lives. (or at least not as much)

tell your friend wilburn who referred to the koreans rather then your topic. And as for your reasoning, I can't blame you entirely for your ignorance of the facts of the whole situation. The war on afghan was for the same reason as for Iraq, OIL. US oil tycoons wanted to run pipes thru afghan to north into russia where they found enough oil to not even need saudi anymore. Afghans clearly disapproved and was given the utlimatem to accept or they will have it their way anyway. Then 9-11 happened, then bombing and invasion of afghan happened, and the very first thing that was done after the invasion was the establishment of oil pipes running up north thru afghan right on schedule as promised.

So you see whether you like it or not, it is a war on Muslims out of greed of the US and nothing more. Missionaries are showing up cuz they feel protected with their big bad boys blowing up innocent civilians left and right can calling them "talibans", we already know truthful the US army has been in their atrocities and labeling of people been. So few taliban are getting killed but they are not getting whipped and its is win-win sitaution for them as well. They get killed then they are shaheed and off to a better place, if they live then continue jihaad against the kufars occupying their land.

[Cognescenti]

Well then...there you have it. According to alcurad we (the non-believers)should cower in our basements waiting for the end.

[snakelegs]

taliban is alive and well. they are far from "whipped".

[wilberhum]

taliban is alive and well. they are far from "whipped".

Alive? Yes.
Well? No, not in my opeion, they are sick.
But yes, far from "whipped".

[MTAFFI]

first, it's not a question of how many farmers are killed and then dubbed "Talban" that would decide the victor.
the one's called Taliban today mostly aren't the ones demonized and then fought after 9/11.most of those are training and recruiting in the tribal belt

I dont think most farmers carry their AK-47 and RPG's while they are planting seeds or harvesting their crops. Of course, then again I suppose they might depending on what these "farmers" are farming :aboo: opium

secondly, the occupation won't last indefinitely.western people have generally become less accepting of even a slight percentage of their soldiers being killed/injured.besides, the financial cost of the war is taking a toll too.

I dont think Afghan is really considered as much of an occupation anyways since there is an Afghan police force, etc. and as far as the body counts go, not that many troops are lost in Afghan, and even if they were many more americans, IMO, support the Afghan war more than the Iraqi war. You always here pull out of Iraq, how often do you hear "pull out of Afghanistan"? As far as finances go, well I think everyone knows the US has no problem with military expenditures.

thirdly, the west might be gaining more than a foothold in Afganistan but that could hardly be said of Iraq, and already tactics and strategies are being imported from there to the Afghan theatre.

first off, Iraq isnt a part of this thread
second, if by "tactics and strategies" you mean blowing up mosques, markets and other areas where innocent civilians reside then I must say, I feel for the Afghan people. However the Taliban are not really known for blowing up infrastructure and innocent people, but I would say that it would be fair to say that Al-qaeda or perhaps an affiliate could be responsible for what "tactics and strategies" that we have seen in the "Afghan theatre", if that is what you wish to call it.

there is no comparison between Iraq-where military service was compulsary from a certain age for al males under Saddam, and there is a great pool of individuals with certain skills-and Afghanistan, but the Afghans have been fighting for their country for a very long time against western invasions , the result being they are ready to accept great losses and keep on.

I agree, there is no comparison so why does it keep getting brought up? With that said I dont really see a lot of the Afghani people complaining or fighting the US presence. The only ones fighting are the ones who are dying, and they can fight till they die and then the world will be rid of them, and Allah can judge them in the hereafter.

lastly , to us muslims , the outcome has already been decided , we believe in the last prophet and he promised victory at the end .some of his prophecies that have yet to happen imply that Aghans will be among the first peole to support the Mahdi .

I havent read much about the Mahdi, where did you read that the Afghans would be the first to support him? Also do you not think that they could support him without the Taliban? I dont need the Taliban and I would support him and I have only started learning about Islam, so why wouldnt the Afghanis if the Taliban ceased to exist or ceased to fight? Who knows it might bring a lot of peace to that country :smile:

[islamirama]

mtaffi,

Once the US got what it wanted (oil pipes), it turned the occupation over to the UN. Now the NATO (Nuclear Armed Terrorist Organization) is reeking havoc in there and killing civilians left and right like their best friends (US) did before them. So much so that even the illegtimate gov't of kazai is speaking out against such atrocities of these nato thugs.

Lastly, you should know that the gov't of Iraq and Afghan is illegtimate and can't be recognized. No gov't formed while a nation is under occupation can be recognized by international law. As for the afghan "police" and "army", these are the same warlords the afghan's asked the talibans to fight in the first place. So as you can see, there is no real gov't or police force in iraq and afghan. And the occupiers do as they please with no one to question them. Regardless of what the kufars here say or think, Muslims will never forget this nor will they let it go. Things are only starting up, it's going to change and get a lot worst, for the kuffar terrorists.

[Trumble]

Lastly, you should know that the gov't of Iraq and Afghan is illegtimate and can't be recognized. No gov't formed while a nation is under occupation can be recognized by international law.

Both have a popular mandate that their predecessors did not. Both HAVE been recognised at least by everybody of any importance. There is no such thing as "international law" in that context, but what there is is essentially centred around the United Nations, which has recognised both administrations.

I'm curious. Obviously in Afghanistan there is a visible (if catastrophic) 'alternative' government in the Taliban, but who do you think would actually represent a more 'legitimate' government in Iraq than the one currently in place? Assuming you accept the idea of people getting a choice (rather than just selecting whichever group happens to call themselves 'Islamic' this week) why would they vote any differently - i.e pretty much on ethnic and sectarian grounds - than they did last time?

[islamirama]

Both have a popular mandate that their predecessors did not. Both HAVE been recognised at least by everybody of any importance. There is no such thing as "international law" in that context, but what there is is essentially centred around the United Nations, which has recognized both administrations.

I'm curious. Obviously in Afghanistan there is a visible (if catastrophic) 'alternative' government in the Taliban, but who do you think would actually represent a more 'legitimate' government in Iraq than the one currently in place?

Go to the UN and see what International law saws on forming gov'ts while under occupation. It goes something like that the gov't is not true representative of the people but rather influence of the occupiers. So both gov'ts are illegtimate and will never be recognized. Of course when your in bed with the boss (US and NATO ) then you can do whatever you want.

Once you leave iraq and afghan, those who are fighting the occupation for their freedom will arise and form a gov't representing the people. You'll never know until the invaders move out.

[wilberhum]

Once you leave iraq and afghan, those who are fighting the occupation for their freedom will arise and

continue killing each other. Just like they are now. Most of the killings have nothing to do with occupation.

[islamirama]

continue killing each other. Just like they are now. Most of the killings have nothing to do with occupation.

when you have no law and security like the one US "promised" and that exists there right now, it's only natural that some gangs will form to grab the power. So you have some gangs and filthy kuffars killing left and right. The Freedom Fighters are doing the best they can and once the crusaders go back home (in body bags inshallah) then they'll be better focused to handle other trouble makers as well.

[The_Prince]

something people havent noticed is that mtaffi has resorted to the same tactic previous american administrations have such as in vietnam, which is that when they were actually losing the war strategically and making no gains they would resort to pointing out the enemy casualties! so infact when one shows off the casualties of the opposing side comming out saying oh we have killed this many and that many it is actually a sign of losing the war! well thats what the experts say.

the fact is is that the taliban are making alot of gains on the ground, several districts are under their control, and they rule the night, another thing to point out is that the americans will go one day, they cant fight forever, and the afghan goverment and army their leaving behind wont be able to sustain the taliban for the long term especially when the taliban have a good safe base just across the border in pakistan and in several areas in afghanistan!

mr mtaffi you should not brag about taliban casualties, if we wanted that we would have to brag everyday because the taliban are getting killed like flies if we are to believe the media, so that doesnt really matter, they have enough numbers to sustain alot of deaths and for every death they simply have another recruit! you should boast about improving afghan lives, healthcare, infustructure, and afghan trust in the coalition and the goverment, and afghan hope for the future, sadly you lack in each of these departments and that is the major blow, because this will simply cause people to turn to the taliban. :)

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Can we please keep this civilised and intelligent as opposed to chavlike?

[wilberhum]

The Freedom Fighters are doing the best they can

There is nothing like drilling holes in kneecaps before shooting your neighbor in the back of the head to gain freedom.

Oh well that Iraq so that is off topic.
Meanwhile back at the market where freedom fighters have blowen up a bunch of shoppers.

[nevesirth]

i really feel for the south koreans being held hostage by the taliban. no matter the situation, they are still civilians and dont deserve such treatment. heard one of them has already being killed. what a pity!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[islamirama]

There is nothing like drilling holes in kneecaps before shooting your neighbor in the back of the head to gain freedom.

either bring proof to back your trash or shut your trap kuffar

[wilberhum]

either bring proof to back your trash or shut your trap kuffar

shut your trap kuffar, oh my, I may never recover. :skeleton:

Should I go hide in a basement. :D

Well now that you have proved that you don't read the news. :? :thumbs_up

What more can I say.

[snakelegs]

something people havent noticed is that mtaffi has resorted to the same tactic previous american administrations have such as in vietnam, which is that when they were actually losing the war strategically and making no gains they would resort to pointing out the enemy casualties! so infact when one shows off the casualties of the opposing side comming out saying oh we have killed this many and that many it is actually a sign of losing the war! well thats what the experts say.

the fact is is that the taliban are making alot of gains on the ground, several districts are under their control, and they rule the night, another thing to point out is that the americans will go one day, they cant fight forever, and the afghan goverment and army their leaving behind wont be able to sustain the taliban for the long term especially when the taliban have a good safe base just across the border in pakistan and in several areas in afghanistan!

mr mtaffi you should not brag about taliban casualties, if we wanted that we would have to brag everyday because the taliban are getting killed like flies if we are to believe the media, so that doesnt really matter, they have enough numbers to sustain alot of deaths and for every death they simply have another recruit! you should boast about improving afghan lives, healthcare, infustructure, and afghan trust in the coalition and the goverment, and afghan hope for the future, sadly you lack in each of these departments and that is the major blow, because this will simply cause people to turn to the taliban. :)

sanity! counting bodies is nothing macho bravado mentality. it is also quite misleading if you count the bodies and think that this is equal to "taliban getting whipped".

[Keltoi]

When the Taliban stands and fights the U.S. military they get "whipped". Now as far as their organization(or whatever you want to call it), I'm sure it is alive and well in Pakistan and isolated parts of Afghanistan. However, the Taliban is not a military threat, the threat is in their ability to create instability.

[SATalha]

When the Taliban stands and fights the U.S. military they get "whipped". Now as far as their organization(or whatever you want to call it), I'm sure it is alive and well in Pakistan and isolated parts of Afghanistan. However, the Taliban is not a military threat, the threat is in their ability to create instability.

But in terms of progress, how is the NATO forces doing in Afghanistan? Are they irradicating the Taliban? (by the way its not a rhetorical question)

[Keltoi]

But in terms of progress, how is the NATO forces doing in Afghanistan? Are they irradicating the Taliban? (by the way its not a rhetorical question)

Eradicating? I think the strategy is stomp when the Taliban raises its head. The U.S. cannot pursue the Taliban across the border, as it would hurt the relationship with Musharaff. So NATO and the U.S. simply wait for the Taliban to make a move, and then stomp accordingly. I don't think "eradication" is on the agenda at the moment.

[Joe98]

Once you leave iraq and afghan, those who are fighting the occupation for their freedom will arise and form a gov't representing the people.

They never did before, why would they do so now?

The Taliban gained power by using tanks and guns to kill other Afghanis. There was no popular uprising.

[wilberhum]

either bring proof to back your trash or shut your trap kuffar

Dozens of bodies found in Baghdad
http://english.aljazeera.net/English...rchiveID=42580

Baghdad police have recovered the bodies of 46 people around the city, one of the highest tolls of suspected sectarian death squad victims in recent weeks.
An interior ministry source said the bodies had been found in the 24 hours leading up to Monday evening and most had been tortured.

Of course you can't trust a Pro-West News source like Al Jazeera. :hiding:

[Keltoi]

Dozens of bodies found in Baghdad
http://english.aljazeera.net/English...rchiveID=42580

Of course you can't trust a Pro-West News source like Al Jazeera. :hiding:

Torture is probably a kind word for what those people suffered.

[alcurad]

to MTAFFI , almost every household in Afghanistan has atleast an AK-something ,.
and true Afghans do grow poppy alot more than any other nation but in the Talibans defense they did try and quite successfully to uproot that practice.that is of course , until the "coalition of the willing " started pouring millions into the northern warlords who shortly after the Talibs rout/retreat started regrowing the stuff under their western masters not-disapproving noses.

I don't support the ones who have deviated and gave themselves the right-if there is such a thing-to attack innocents. but I do think that the Taliban were so misrepresented and still are just so that attacking them would be OK to the greater masses.

about the Mahdi , as a matter of fact I don't think they would be the ones , I didnt even say that , I simply said the Afghans would be among the first to support him. although I do think they are playing a part .
I read some Ahadeeth about that but it's mainly my understanding and interpretation Im following. on a second note I think I sould not have brought it up .since politics and religion are not so seperate for me as they are to you and since I dont want to confuse you early on in your study of Islam pehaps it shouldnt be brought up again.

on the other hand , it would not bring peace to the country if the Taliban ceased to exist altogether . even if such a thing were to happen the contry would not have peace. the western backed druglords and common criminals will not stop their rampage against each other and every one else in that sad country.

lastly; the people fighting against the Americans and Europeans are generally the clans that have been marginalized by Kabul or set upon by a warlord who is supported by the coalition .

[Trumble]

Go to the UN and see what International law saws on forming gov'ts while under occupation. It goes something like that the gov't is not true representative of the people but rather influence of the occupiers.

It "goes something like that", does it? Provide a source, not waffle. In any event, both governments were formed following democratic elections.. the results of which haven't actually been seriously disputed. They are therefore far more legitimate than their predecessors.

Once you leave iraq and afghan, those who are fighting the occupation for their freedom will arise and form a gov't representing the people. You'll never know until the invaders move out.

You are living in a total "hate the evil Kuffar" fantasy world. Nobody is "fighting for their freedom"... assorted factions of muslims are fighting each other for the sole purpose of establishing their own power-base. They have no interest in "representing the people", only in concentrating power in their own particular portion of them.

BTW are these are the same heroic freedom fighters who blew up and killed 50 football fans today.. people from all the communities in Iraq who for once had something to celebrate together? Get a clue!

[Cognescenti]

....And as for your reasoning, I can't blame you entirely for your ignorance of the facts of the whole situation. The war on afghan was for the same reason as for Iraq, OIL. US oil tycoons wanted to run pipes thru afghan to north into russia where they found enough oil to not even need saudi anymore. Afghans clearly disapproved and was given the utlimatem to accept or they will have it their way anyway. Then 9-11 happened, then bombing and invasion of afghan happened, and the very first thing that was done after the invasion was the establishment of oil pipes running up north thru afghan right on schedule as promised. .....

OK...I am a little fuzzy on this concept..the pipelines are running North into Russia from Afghanistan? There is no oil to speak of n Afghnaistan. What are they carrying, goat milk? An oil pipeline is a directional thing

To begin with, I think the new oil field you are talking about is actually in a former USSR republic (Kazakhstan or Tadjikistan or perphaps Azerbaijan?), not Russia. So, presumably, to get the oil to someone who could actually buy it, it would have to reach a port on the Indian Ocean if it were to take the route you identified. Afghanistan is not on the coast! Please explain to the assembled masses where it is going to go from Afhghanistan. Iran perhaps? :smile: Pakistan..I guess..which is now the "home base" of Al Queda and the Taliban :p Sounds like a great plan! Absolute genius! Pump the stuff through a couple thousand miles of remote terrain which is unpatrolable and populated by people who will behead the guy who comes to check on the pipes.

I think the real prefered route is Georgia/Armenia/Turkey to Black Sea or Med. I guess you could say we tried to invade Turkey at the start of the Iraq War but they wouldnt let us land so we went away.

BTW...a Kazakhstan to China pipeline just opened. I suppose Bush and Cheney were behind that too?

[MTAFFI]

something people havent noticed is that mtaffi has resorted to the same tactic previous american administrations have such as in vietnam, which is that when they were actually losing the war strategically and making no gains they would resort to pointing out the enemy casualties! so infact when one shows off the casualties of the opposing side comming out saying oh we have killed this many and that many it is actually a sign of losing the war! well thats what the experts say.

This is an interesting paragraph, basically you are saying that because when the US was in vietnam and claimed enemy casualties, I am now inadvertently claiming tht we are losing the war in Afghan? LOL OK here, not only are we killing these guys left and right or as Keltoi put it "shooting them when they pop up" (whack a mole), but we successfully dismantled their government and their influence over 90% (estimate) of the country, 75 taliban killed in one day and the taliban have managed to kill just over 100 troops (only 50 something US troops), so what does that tell you? They have lost everything, they hide in remote places where their influence is limited, they lose usually at least 25 or so everyday and can now be compared to a game of whack a mole.

the fact is is that the taliban are making alot of gains on the ground, several districts are under their control, and they rule the night, another thing to point out is that the americans will go one day, they cant fight forever, and the afghan goverment and army their leaving behind wont be able to sustain the taliban for the long term especially when the taliban have a good safe base just across the border in pakistan and in several areas in afghanistan!

Gains on the ground? Rule the night? LOL LOL LOL Are you in some fantasy world or smoking some of that opium or something? They may rule the goat kingdom at night! LOL

True though the US will eventually leave but from everything that the Taliban has had hit them they will not return to power ever or at least for a long time. As far as Pakistan goes, I think I read an article about that the other day, and I think that they will start to take a little more aggressive action on their end.

mr mtaffi you should not brag about taliban casualties, if we wanted that we would have to brag everyday because the taliban are getting killed like flies if we are to believe the media, so that doesnt really matter, they have enough numbers to sustain alot of deaths and for every death they simply have another recruit! you should boast about improving afghan lives, healthcare, infustructure, and afghan trust in the coalition and the goverment, and afghan hope for the future, sadly you lack in each of these departments and that is the major blow, because this will simply cause people to turn to the taliban. :)

What are their numbers? How many do they recruit daily? No one knows, do they.... What would you estimate, I am just curious....

The Afghans lives will improve when all thsi is over and hopefully I can then boast of how an oppressive regime was removed by my country and at least some muslims could benefit from what is going on today with healthcare, infrastructure, etc. Believe me my friend, there is nothing I wish for more than peace and welfare for the US, afghans, iraqis, everyone

Why do you not make these posts to those who brag about downing a US chopper or killing troops in Iraq?

[The_Prince]

i havent seen posts of people bragging about downing helicopters, :).

as for the taliban gaining ground and ruling the night, this info came from a documentary with the taliban done by channel 4 which you can find on youtube, hence no need to insult by calling me "high" i dont smoke that stuff at all.

as for the taliban numbers, they have said they have 12000 fighters in the areas their fighting, who knows how many they have in pakistan, the latest millitant fighting in pakistan is basically the pakistan taliban and there are thousands of them, they basically have their own country in north wazirstan. roughly up to 25,000 fighters :)

[MTAFFI]

i havent seen posts of people bragging about downing helicopters, :).

Sorry about that I just realized you are a newer member

as for the taliban gaining ground and ruling the night, this info came from a documentary with the taliban done by channel 4 which you can find on youtube, hence no need to insult by calling me "high" i dont smoke that stuff at all.

I apologize if you felt insulted, it just seems so preposterous that the Taliban would be "gaining" anything, of course then again you can find a news story or a documentary to back up just about anything you want :D

as for the taliban numbers, they have said they have 12000 fighters in the areas their fighting, who knows how many they have in pakistan, the latest millitant fighting in pakistan is basically the pakistan taliban and there are thousands of them, they basically have their own country in north wazirstan. roughly up to 25,000 fighters :)

that is interesting, if there is 12000 in Afghanistan then at the rate we are going right now they will all be dead in just over a year, and if the ones in Pakistan were to come on over and this continued at the same rate they woudl all be dead within four years.:smile: :thankyou:

[muzna]

I am not sure I follow you here....The thread is about the defeat that the Taliban is suffering, it isnt an occupation in Afghanistan and it isnt an illegal war in Afghan either. The Taliban was given an ultimatum, they obviously made the wrong choice otherwise their number wouldnt be diminished and they wouldnt have to hide like goats in the mountains. As for missionaries being in Afghanistan, I cannot speak for them and I do not think our troops being their "asked" them to come to that country, however if you have evidence that proves otherwise, then I would be happy to read over it. My guess, however, is that these missionaries are there because it is the first time that they could go there without having to fear for their lives. (or at least not as much)

i wonder who died and gave ANYONE the right to issue ultimatums to the rulers of their own countries

[islamirama]

OK...I am a little fuzzy on this concept..the pipelines are running North into Russia from Afghanistan? There is no oil to speak of n Afghnaistan. What are they carrying, goat milk? An oil pipeline is a directional thing

To begin with, I think the new oil field you are talking about is actually in a former USSR republic (Kazakhstan or Tadjikistan or perphaps Azerbaijan?), not Russia. So, presumably, to get the oil to someone who could actually buy it, it would have to reach a port on the Indian Ocean if it were to take the route you identified. Afghanistan is not on the coast! Please explain to the assembled masses where it is going to go from Afhghanistan. Iran perhaps? :smile: Pakistan..I guess..which is now the "home base" of Al Queda and the Taliban :p Sounds like a great plan! Absolute genius! Pump the stuff through a couple thousand miles of remote terrain which is unpatrolable and populated by people who will behead the guy who comes to check on the pipes.

I think the real prefered route is Georgia/Armenia/Turkey to Black Sea or Med. I guess you could say we tried to invade Turkey at the start of the Iraq War but they wouldnt let us land so we went away.

BTW...a Kazakhstan to China pipeline just opened. I suppose Bush and Cheney were behind that too?

the level of deliberate ignorance or just blind denial of the kuffars in here is very sickening +o(

You can read the Department of Energy’s own report on Afghanistan from September 2001:

"Afghanistan's significance from an energy standpoint stems from its geographical position as a potential transit route for oil and natural gas exports from Central Asia to the Arabian Sea. This potential includes the possible construction of oil and natural gas export pipelines through Afghanistan, which was under serious consideration in the mid-1990s. The idea has since been undermined by Afghanistan's instability. Since 1996, most of Afghanistan has been controlled by the Taliban movement, which the United States does not recognize as the government of Afghanistan"

(By the way, this kind of research is no longer difficult. Finding those two links took about 2 seconds with Google.com and the right search terms.)

War For Oil?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/warforoil.html

America's Pipe Dream

http://www.counterpunch.org/monbiot2.html


1998 Unocal Statement:
Suspension of activities related to proposed natural gas pipeline across Afghanistan
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/oil.html

Afghanistan: War for oil? Local voices weigh in
http://www.keweenawnow.com/news/afghanistan_02_03/afghanistan_02_03_p_1.htm

[Haidar_Abbas]

:sl: its simple...stop acting and lieing as if western ppl come to islamic countries and "help". by "help" they mean missionize and convert all us they can...if u dont wana send food or money DONT SEND stacks of bibles :hmm: :sl:

[Cognescenti]

:sl: its simple...stop acting and lieing as if western ppl come to islamic countries and "help". by "help" they mean missionize and convert all us they can...if u dont wana send food or money DONT SEND stacks of bibles :hmm: :sl:

Couldn't you just read the part up to Abraham and ignore the rest?

What is the big deal with a couple of annoying missionaries? Just say no. Scroll through this section and take a peek at the thread on 2 US soldiers converting to Islam. You would think Islam just won the World Cup from the celebration involved. :shade: Now stand back and try to have a little objectivity. Relax. be happy.

[MTAFFI]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070726/...an_violence_dc

More than 50 Taliban killed in Afghan south: U.S. 2 hours, 9 minutes ago


KABUL (Reuters) - U.S.-led troops, backed by air power, killed more than 50 insurgents in a battle in Afghanistan's southern province of Helmand, the U.S. military said on Thursday.

There were no casualties among coalition troops in the 12-hour battle with Taliban militants, which finished early on Thursday, it said in a statement. No civilian injuries were reported, it added.

More than 160 insurgents have been killed in Helmand's Musa Qala district since Sunday, the military said.

The Taliban, who are leading an insurgency against the government and foreign troops, could not be reached for comment and because of the remoteness of the region there was no independent verification of the report.

Two residents phoned a Reuters reporter in the south to say that 17 people, 16 of them civilians, were killed in the bombing.

They said up to 30 people were wounded, most of them non-combatants.

Separately, one NATO soldier was killed on Thursday in a clash in southern Afghanistan, the alliance said.

Four policemen, including a commander, were wounded in a Taliban ambush in the north of the country near the town of Baghlan on Thursday, the commander said from his hospital bed.

A roadside bomb exploded near a Canadian convoy just south of the city of Kandahar in southern Afghanistan, but there were no injuries to either soldiers or civilians, Canadian forces said.

Violence has surged in Afghanistan in the past 18 months, the bloodiest period since U.S.-led troops overthrew the Taliban's government in 2001.

Civilian deaths are a sensitive issue for President Hamid Karzai's government and the foreign troops led by NATO and the U.S. military.

More than 330 civilians have been killed in foreign troops operations this year alone in Afghanistan, according to Afghan officials and Western aid workers.

Faced with criticism over perceived lack of economic and reconstruction development, rising crime, rampant corruption and booming illegal drugs, Karzai has warned that civilian deaths would have bad consequences for his government and the troops.

(With additional reporting Mirwais Afghan in KANDAHAR)

[Woodrow]

Just a reminder to all. Replies are to be directed to the topic and not to any poster. This is a hot, controversial topic and we all do have personal opinions. These opinions are upon our own perspectives. We probably will not agree with each other's views, but let us all respect the right of each person to have his own personal views based upon what he/she has seen or been told.

Keep our conflicting opinions based upon what we believe to be presentable facts and use them to validate our points, rather than resorting to arguments and attempts to cause another member to post out of anger.

Personal anger does not validate any statement, but it does manage to get a lot of posts deleted. If you want your words to be read, address them to an alleged fact and use verifiable evidence to show the statement is either false or true. None of us here have sufficient pull in the world for anybody to believe us simply because we say so.

[Cognescenti]

... None of us here have sufficient pull in the world for anybody to believe us simply because we say so.

Welll...I used to...then my kids had their 4th or 5th birthdays.

[islamirama]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070726/...an_violence_dc

More than 50 Taliban killed in Afghan south: U.S. 2 hours, 9 minutes ago

I wouldn't believe too much in that crap. They often like to exaggerate or even lie about their own and "enemy" causalities. just 60 months ago they said they killed 100 talibans at so and so place along with their commander. Few days later the commander came on news saying they are liars who can't hit a fly and just like to show that they are "killing" as many as they say are.

[wilberhum]

I wouldn't believe too much in that crap. They often like to exaggerate or even lie about their own and "enemy" causalities. just 60 months ago they said they killed 100 talibans at so and so place along with their commander. Few days later the commander came on news saying they are liars who can't hit a fly and just like to show that they are "killing" as many as they say are.

Truth is the first causality of war.

[nevesirth]

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (AP) - A purported Taliban spokesman claimed the hardline militia killed a second South Korean hostage Monday because the Afghan government failed to release imprisoned insurgents. Afghan officials said they hadn't recovered a body and couldn't confirm the claim.

The Al-Jazeera television network, meanwhile, showed footage that it said was seven female hostages in Afghanistan.

Militant spokesman Qari Yousef Ahmadi said senior Taliban leaders decided to kill the male captive because the government had not met Taliban demands to trade prisoners for the Christian volunteers.

"The Kabul and Korean governments are lying and cheating. They did not meet their promise of releasing Taliban prisoners," Ahmadi, who claims to speak for the Taliban, said by phone from an undisclosed location. "The Taliban warns the government if the Afghan government won't release Taliban prisoners then at any time the Taliban could kill another Korean hostage."


(AP) An Afghan policeman is seen through a hole at a police checkpoint on the outskirts of Kabul,...
Full Image


Ghazni Gov. Marajudin Pathan said officials were aware of the Taliban's claim but hadn't recovered a body. He said police were looking but he couldn't say when they might find anything.

"Ghazni is a very vast area, so we really don't know where the body is," Pathan said.

Al-Jazeera showed shaky footage of what it said were several South Korean hostages. It did not say how it obtained the video, whose authenticity could not immediately be verified.

Some seven female hostages, heads veiled in accordance with the Islamic law enforced by the Taliban, were seen crouching in the dark, eyes closed or staring at the ground, expressionless.

The hostages did not speak as they were filmed by the hand-held camera.

The Taliban kidnapped 23 South Koreans riding on a bus through Ghazni province on the Kabul-Kandahar highway on July 19, the largest group of foreign hostages taken in Afghanistan since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion.

The Taliban has set several deadlines for the Koreans' lives. Last Wednesday the insurgents killed their first hostage, a male leader of the group.

It's not clear if the Afghan government would consider releasing any militant prisoners.

In March, President Hamid Karzai approved a deal that saw five captive Taliban fighters freed for the release of Italian reporter Daniele Mastrogiacomo. Karzai, who was criticized by the United States and European capitals over the exchange, called the trade a one-time deal.

On Sunday, Karzai and other Afghan officials tried to shame the Taliban into releasing the female captives by appealing to a tradition of cultural hospitality and chivalry. They called the kidnapping of women "unIslamic."

On Monday, South Korean officials changed their estimate of the number of women captives to 16, down from earlier reports of 18.

---

Associated Press writer Amir Shah contributed to this report from Kabul.




http://story.news.ask.com//article/2...D8QN3NNO0.html

[wilberhum]

What a great group. Give me what I want or I will kill inocent people. :scared:

And some people want to live under there rule. :hmm: :confused:

[nevesirth]

im afraid this hostage situation isnt gonna end well. the poor south koreans, wht were they doing there in the first place?

[wilberhum]

im afraid this hostage situation isnt gonna end well. the poor south koreans, wht were they doing there in the first place?

I think they hoped to help people "Find Jesus".

How Evil can you get? :hiding:

[Cognescenti]

Can someone explain to me why it is important to have female hostages wear headscarves (out of modesty?) and yet the hostage-takers (aka terrorists, murderers, 14th century thugs.....etc) propose to murder them if their demands aren't met and drag off their male compatriots to be murdered?

Doesn't that seem the least bit hypocritical? Where are all the Taliban cheerleaders in the forum? They seem to be AWOL on this.

[KAding]

Indeed. Surely kidnapping civilians and murdering them if your political and military demands are not met is not Islamic? Surely that is a criminal act, not one of legitimate resistance?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

bull ish mr hangman, the muslims will neva go dowN!

[Keltoi]

bull ish mr hangman, the muslims will neva go dowN!

What?

[wilberhum]

bull ish mr hangman, the muslims will neva go dowN!

I don't think anyone here wants the Muslims to go down, :uuh:
were talking about the Taliban. :mad:

[Keltoi]

I think many Muslims need to understand that when non-Muslims discuss the Taliban and a Muslim member says something like "The Muslims will never lose", it sounds very much like a Christian stating.."The KKK will win, the Christians will never go down." I would hope the Taliban is not Islam, any more than the KKK were Christianity.

[MTAFFI]

I think many Muslims need to understand that when non-Muslims discuss the Taliban and a Muslim member says something like "The Muslims will never lose", it sounds very much like a Christian stating.."The KKK will win, the Christians will never go down." I would hope the Taliban is not Islam, any more than the KKK were Christianity.

some people on this forum should read this post very closely

Just because people claim to be Muslim, does not make them Muslim, what makes you Muslim is the way you live your life, these people definitely should not recieve any support from the Muslim community and they and everyone like them should be shunned. These are just more actions that prove they are only muslim by name and not by action

[KAding]

some people on this forum should read this post very closely

Just because people claim to be Muslim, does not make them Muslim, what makes you Muslim is the way you live your life, these people definitely should not recieve any support from the Muslim community and they and everyone like them should be shunned. These are just more actions that prove they are only muslim by name and not by action

Well, we all assume what they do is un-Islamic. We don't really know of course, since we are not scholars of Islam. Besides, whatever the talk of 'Muslim unity', it is clear there are widely differing interpretations on these matters. The Taliban are probably not making this up as they go, they no doubt have religious scholars who provide them with legal advice. We all know the complexity of the whole 'proselytizing' debate in Islam. Add to that the fact that this is a time of war. Are they prisoners of war? Or civilians? Do they qualify as war booty? Difficult questions no doubt for the scholars.

And then there are rulings like these:
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=10382&ln=eng

This says it "is permissible for you [Muhajedeen] take concubines [sex slaves] from among those whom you seized as war booty".

Surely un-Islamic, no? That would no doubt be the first reaction of many. I don't know. It seems to be allowed according to this respected website.

And then this ruling, which is very relevant to this case I suppose:
http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=13...#37;20of%20war

Detaining prisoners
Prisoners should be detained until it is decided what is the best move. The ruler of the Muslims should detain prisoners until he decides what is in the Muslims’ best interests. He may ransom them for money, or exchange them for Muslim prisoners, or release them for nothing in return, or distribute them among the Muslims as slaves, or kill the men, but not the women and children, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade killing the latter.

This is about prisoners of war btw. I must I say though, the whole ruling is very confusing. It keeps stressing that the prisoners should be dealt with humanely, yet also says they can be killed or used as slaves if you don't get what you want from the enemy. It betrays the confusion about this matter within Islamic circles I suppose. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they would eventually release the Korean women after having killed the men.

[Bittersteel]

yes it's allowed to kill enemy males if they are too much of a threat to the Islamic state.BTW,were you referring to the South Koreans captured by the Taliban?they were doing evangelistic work in a Muslim country where there is a war going on;you can't expect the taliban to be nice with the evangelists when even normal people in different countries don't like them.

[KAding]

yes it's allowed to kill enemy males if they are too much of a threat to the Islamic state.BTW,were you referring to the South Koreans captured by the Taliban?they were doing evangelistic work in a Muslim country where there is a war going on;you can't expect the taliban to be nice with the evangelists when even normal people in different countries don't like them.

I had hoped I could expect it from them not to kill these Korean civilians. That I my hope is in vain, unfortunately proves to me they are morally corrupt. If indeed Islam allows them to slaughter these civilians, I have no other choice but to make the same judgment about Islam.

[Bittersteel]

f indeed Islam allows them to slaughter these civilians

they might have been civilians but they were evangelists,their mission to cause disbelief in Muslims.I know of no such ruling concerning such a tight situation hope someone provides a link to it.

here is the slavery link:
http://www.renaissance.com.pk/aprq12y2.html
this gives the reasoning why slaves were freed and married later.

Off-topic:

Question:
> If the Prophet(PBUH) did not commit rape then why did he allowed
sex
>with slaves?
>
>The Answer:
>
>By: Sheikh Hani al-Jubayr
>
>The Judge at the Grand Court, Jeddah
>
>Note: With respect to the rules of slavery, such rules will not be
>applicable unless slavery exists in fact. If it does not exist, then
the
>rules can not be applied.
>

>A slave girl belongs to her master. He has the right to enjoy with her
in a
>legal way, and he can use her as a maid to help him. If she becomes
>pregnant and gives birth to his child, then she is promoted to the
status
>of a child's mother. She cannot thereafter be sold and will be totally
free
>when her master dies.
>
>
>
>Her master has to pay for her reasonable expenses. If she has sexual
>desire, her master is obligated to satisfy her or let her marry
someone
>else.
>
>The master has no right to let her marry someone or sell her unless he

>confirms that her womb is free. When he lets her marry someone else,
he may
>not touch her thereafter.
>
>
>
>Our religion encourages people to free slaves and made it a compulsory
act
>in some cases while it is promised a reward in other cases. Moreover,
it
>made the release of slaves a method of legally paying the Zakâh tax.
>
>
>
>I would like to point out that what existed in recent decades of
stealing
>free people and selling them is something not accepted in Islam.
>
>
>
>May Allah guide us all and may peace and blessing be upon Prophet
Muhammad.
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------
>
>
>
>From the fatwâ department:
>
>
>
>A soldier cannot have sex with the war captives. That would be rape.
The
>Muslim government must decide what to do with the war captives. The
first
>priority of the Muslim state would usually be to trade those captives
for
>Muslim prisoners of war held by the enemy. The state also has the
option to
>free the captives. If the state deems that it is not in its interests
to do
>so, it may thereafter distribute those captives as part of the spoils
of
>war.
>
>
>
>A person can only have relations with a slave girl after she has
legally
>become his property. Losing one's chastity is not a danger here. A
person
>becomes unchaste only when that person engages in unlawful sexual
>intercourse. When a husband and wife have sexual relations, neither
becomes
>unchaste, because they are both engaging in lawful sexual intercourse
and
>not fornication. The same can be said for when a man has sexual
relations
>with his slave girl. They both remain chaste because they are engaging
in
>lawful sexual relations and not fornication. The man cannot give other
men
>access to the slave girl. He cannot share her. If she has sex with
someone
>else, then she is committing fornication. If the master forces her to
have
>sex with someone else, then he is the one who is sinful. He is also an

>oppressor who is violating Islamic Law by abusing his slave.
>
>
>
>If he allows the slave girl to marry someone else, then he
relinquishes his
>right to have sexual relations with her. She may then only have sexual

>relations with her husband. It does not matter whether her husband is
a
>free man or also a slave.
>
>
>
>Fatwâ Department Research Committee of IslamToday.net chaired by
Sheikh
>`Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî

[wilberhum]

Aziz

yes it's allowed to kill enemy males if they are too much of a threat to the Islamic state.

I'm always told there are no "Islamic States".
It seams the definations always change to suite the point to be made.

My question is can any Muslim, in an "Islamic State", kill any non-Muslim whom he thinks is an evangelists?

[Bittersteel]

I'm always told there are no "Islamic States".

I was talking about the theoretical part.I thought the question was kind of not related to the incident.better check Kading's post to understand what I posted.

My question is can any Muslim, in an "Islamic State", kill any non-Muslim whom he thinks is an evangelists?

nope.the state will gather evidence,check the Non-Muslim guy's actions.the state or the head of state will have to decide.Not any Muslims.In fact it goes for all criminal accusations.But you will still find Muslim citizens(rural and illiterate ones) taking the law into their hands.I am not still sure about the killing part though but it's most likely.

[Cognescenti]

Detaining prisoners
Prisoners should be detained until it is decided what is the best move. The ruler of the Muslims should detain prisoners until he decides what is in the Muslims’ best interests. He may ransom them for money, or exchange them for Muslim prisoners, or release them for nothing in return, or distribute them among the Muslims as slaves, or kill the men, but not the women and children, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade killing the latter.

If these standards were applied to the friendly brothers of Git'mo.......:okay:

[wilberhum]

nope.the state will gather evidence,check the Non-Muslim guy's actions.the state or the head of state will have to decide.Not any Muslims.In fact it goes for all criminal accusations.But you will still find Muslim citizens(rural and illiterate ones) taking the law into their hands.I am not still sure about the killing part though but it's most likely.

The state is not involved. We are dealing with a bunch of thugs kidnapping people for ransom.

[Cognescenti]

Aziz

I'm always told there are no "Islamic States".
It seams the definations always change to suite the point to be made.

.....

Amen, brother. You have correctly identified the impenetrable force field cleverly constructed to thwart anyone who would dare criticize an action taken by an "Islamic state" in the name of Islam (or perhaps, more properly, claimed to be taken in the name of Islam). This strategy applies to criticisms of Sharia as well.

Catch-a-22

[Bittersteel]

If these standards were applied to the friendly brothers of Git'mo

were they all caught fighting?

The state is not involved. We are dealing with a bunch of thugs kidnapping people for ransom.

My question is can any Muslim, in an "Islamic State", kill any non-Muslim whom he thinks is an evangelists?

maybe I misunderstood your question.were you referring to the taliban?

[wilberhum]

were they all caught fighting??

Of course they were.

maybe I misunderstood your question.were you referring to the taliban?

I'm talking about any group other that the government. :hiding:

[MTAFFI]

were they all caught fighting?

were these koreans caught fighting?
:hiding:

[Bittersteel]

good point but they were doing evangelism work.nowadays that's practically an act of war in some hard line Muslim places in these times.

Of course they were.

nope they weren't not all of 'em.there are innocents mixed with the guilty ones.some sources say the innocent outnumber the guilty in that place.

[Chechnya]

nope they weren't not all of 'em.there are innocents mixed with the guilty ones.some sources say the innocent outnumber the guilty in that place.

dont mind wilberhum, thinkng isnt one of his strong points

i reccommend moazzam beggs book to anyone who wants to know what is going on in guantamano to innocent muslims, its quite shocking

[Keltoi]

good point but they were doing evangelism work.nowadays that's practically an act of war in some hard line Muslim places in these times.

nope they weren't not all of 'em.there are innocents mixed with the guilty ones.some sources say the innocent outnumber the guilty in that place.

That's interesting, since some of the people they let out of Gitmo due to lack of evidence have ended up on the battlefield once again. One guy in particular blew himself up on the border of Pakistan.

[Cognescenti]

dont mind wilberhum, thinkng isnt one of his strong points

i reccommend moazzam beggs book to anyone who wants to know what is going on in guantamano to innocent muslims, its quite shocking

Yeah...I heard most of the detainees at Git'mo were in Afghanistan to build a summer camp for conflicted gay teens. There was also the group of cooks and gardeners from the Khandahar Battered Women's Center.

Poor souls.

[MTAFFI]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070807/...as/afghanistan

Taliban launch frontal attack on base By RAHIM FAIEZ, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 54 minutes ago



GHAZNI, Afghanistan - A group of 75 Taliban militants tried to overrun a U.S.-led coalition base in southern Afghanistan on Tuesday, a rare frontal attack that left more than 20 militants dead, the coalition said in a statement.

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The insurgents attacked Firebase Anaconda from three sides, using gunfire, grenades and 107 mm rockets, the coalition said. A joint Afghan-U.S. force repelled the attack with mortars, machine guns and air support.

"Almost two dozen insurgents were confirmed killed in the attack," the statement said. Two girls and two Afghan soldiers were wounded during the fight in Uruzgan province, it said.

A firebase like Anaconda is usually a remote outpost staffed by as few as several dozen soldiers.

"The inability of the insurgent forces to inflict any severe damage on Firebase Anaconda, while being simultaneously decimated in the process, should be a clear indication of the ineffectiveness of their fighters," said Army Capt. Vanessa R. Bowman, a coalition spokeswoman.

A direct attack on a U.S. or NATO base by insurgents on foot is relatively rare. More often insurgents fire rockets at bases and flee. Military officials say that Taliban fighters know they can't match Western militaries in a heads-up battle, which leads the insurgents to more often rely on roadside and suicide bombs.

......

Another loss for the Taliban, they are so sad that they cant even take a small outpost..... hahahahahahaha lol ;D

[wilberhum]

Pakistan in anti-Taliban operation
Pakistani security forces, backed by helicopter gunships, have launched an attack on hideouts being used by pro-Taliban fighters in North Waziristan.

An army spokesman said on Tuesday that forces hit targets in Daygan, a village 15km west of the town Miranshah, after receiving "credible intelligence that fighters were present there".




Cobra helicopter gunships and artillery launched the attack at about 5am (0000 GMT) and it lasted about four hours, Major-General Waheed Arshad said.

No ground forces were used in the assault, and there was no immediate word on casualties.






"The militants used to regroup and prepare attacks on security forces and take refuge at these compounds, so security forces targeted them," Arshad said, calling the compounds a "staging post."
(More)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...1951A7238E.htm

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes but the Taliban still control large parts of Afghanistan despite Natos 6 year illegal occupation the Taliban are still fighting strong.

[wilberhum]

Yes but the Taliban still control large parts of Afghanistan despite Natos 6 year illegal occupation the Taliban are still fighting strong.

What large part? Those caves up in the hills?


illegal occupation?
I think we will leave just as soon as the Afghanistan government tells to.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Well you have just said that if Bush left Afghanistan the Taliban would defeat Kaizais puppet goverment and return to power and the good old days will come back.

[wilberhum]

Well you have just said that if Bush left Afghanistan the Taliban would defeat Kaizais puppet goverment and return to power and the good old days will come back.

Good old days? :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:

Why not bring back the government the Taliban forced out? :hiding:

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

No i mean when the Taliban ruled Afhanistan everything was good.

[wilberhum]

No i mean when the Taliban ruled Afhanistan everything was good.

Well if you ignore 75% of reality. :skeleton:

There was never peace from the first day that a Taliban killed someone till today. :?

There will never be peace till the last one is gone. :thumbs_up

[Bittersteel]

Yes but the Taliban still control large parts of Afghanistan despite Natos 6 year illegal occupation the Taliban are still fighting strong.

it's not illegal occupation.Taliban provided safe refuge for a criminal responsible for terrorist attacks on another sovereign nation.

[MTAFFI]

Yes but the Taliban still control large parts of Afghanistan despite Natos 6 year illegal occupation the Taliban are still fighting strong.

LOL

Yeah that is why they attack a base armed by a couple dozen troops and come in with 75+ and still get sent back crying into their goat caves ;D

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

You want to watch Al Jazeera the Taliban have Hospitals and schools in Helmand provence so wake up u have obvously been watching Sky news witch only has one point of view.

[Cognescenti]

You want to watch Al Jazeera the Taliban have Hospitals and schools in Helmand provence so wake up u have obvously been watching Sky news witch only has one point of view.

Helmand U:

Teacher: What do you do when you find a man who is clean shaven?

Class: "KILL HIM!

Teacher: Excellent! I can see you have all been studying. Now. Here is a tough one. What do you do when you catch a thief?

Top Student: Cut off his right hand then take him to Helmond General to stop the bleeding!

[wilberhum]

You want to watch Al Jazeera the Taliban have Hospitals and schools in Helmand provence so wake up u have obvously been watching Sky news witch only has one point of view.

Of course the Taliban is not all bad. :skeleton:

Only about 90% bad. :D

[MTAFFI]

You want to watch Al Jazeera the Taliban have Hospitals and schools in Helmand provence so wake up u have obvously been watching Sky news witch only has one point of view.

It is funny you should mention that, it is true that the Taliban are known to have a large amount of influence and countrol in this small portion of the country, some reports indicate that they actually rule this region. What is even funnier is how many times I have seen people on this forum argue that the Taliban was attempting to abolish opium cultivation and distribution, yet this region of Afghan produces 20% or more of the WORLDS supply of opium. What is even funnier than all of that, is that this is one of the last major strongholds the Taliban has in Afghanistan, and more and more NATO, US and Afghani security forces are mounting up the pressure on these morons and I am sure that day by day you will see that they will begin to be killed at higher and higher rates. It is easy for the cowards to run up and down the mountains in this region, which is what has allowed them to make the claims that they have, but you can bet your bottom dollar that they will meet their end, they have been on the decline since they fled to the mountains. They are weak, and they do not control any significant portion of Afghanistan, the region that they control are in poverty, and again I will say their numbers are dwindling , and now with Pakistan helping even their "safe havens" are getting smaller in size.

I will have a very large party when victory is declared and troops are removed from Afghanistan, and you can even come if you would like!

:rock: <--- that is one freaky lookin smiley

[wilberhum]

Fighters killed in Pakistan clashesAt least 12 fighters including foreigners have been killed in a raid by Pakistani gunship helicopters in a remote tribal area near the Afghan border, according to the Pakistan military.

Mortars were fired during Tuesday's attack at a hideout some 20km west of Miranshah, the main town in the North Waziristan tribal district.




"There are unconfirmed reports that six to eight Arabs, Tajiks and Chechens were among the militants killed in the operation," Major-General Waheed Arshad, a senior military spokesman, said on Wednesday.

He said around 10 fighters were also wounded.
(more)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...AF4BA64BA1.htm

[Darkseid]

Well you have just said that if Bush left Afghanistan the Taliban would defeat Kaizais puppet goverment and return to power and the good old days will come back.

You mean the good old days of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xrTnBhPTj0

GO ALLAH GO!

LOL!

No wait I have a better one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxwr661pz3A

This is what Allah will do if al Queda does take over the Earth.

Hasta la Vista Bin Laden. LMFAO!

And this what will happen if you take over the world.

http://www.youtube.com/v/-Xra9KznK8I

Although this is a good alternative

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aneFO...elated&search=

However, I think this unexplained phenomenum of how the Earth explodes for no particular reason might best sum up the likelihood of Allah's response to an Islamic world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDMcx...elated&search=

Are you getting the picture yet?

BTW, Bin Laden works for George Bush. Actually it is Dick Cheney, but you get the picture now don't you?

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

yOU HAVE GOT TO RESPECT THE TALIBAN FOR THE FACT THAT AFTER NEARLY 6 YEARS OF FIGHTING THEY STILL CONTROL PARTS OF AFGHANISTAN.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ and they stop grave worship :D may Allah reward them, Ameen !

[MTAFFI]

yOU HAVE GOT TO RESPECT THE TALIBAN FOR THE FACT THAT AFTER NEARLY 6 YEARS OF FIGHTING THEY STILL CONTROL PARTS OF AFGHANISTAN.

I respect the fact that they fight respectfully the majority of the time, but I do not respect them or what they fight for. They are getting pushed out day by day and their little helmand region will also soon come under fire. I have no doubt that they are not afraid of death and they will fight to hold their position, but I also have no doubt that they will die doing so.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I respect the fact that they fight respectfully the majority of the time, but I do not respect them or what they fight for. They are getting pushed out day by day and their little helmand region will also soon come under fire. I have no doubt that they are not afraid of death and they will fight to hold their position, but I also have no doubt that they will die doing so.

they can abandon the region and regroup somewhere else, i see nothing stopping them from doing that.


If they take the migration process slowly then im sure they can get the whole lot to safety,

for some reason i do not think the taliban will die out anytime soon, nor do i think they will die out easily...

[MTAFFI]

they can abandon the region and regroup somewhere else, i see nothing stopping them from doing that.

They can certainly try that and it may or may not work depending on what security forces are in and between the areas that they are trying to reach. In theory, it should be more difficult for them to transport themselves and rpg's and ak-47 if there are checkpoints in between point a and point b

If they take the migration process slowly then im sure they can get the whole lot to safety,

I think it will be hard to take slowly since the security forces are advancing rather quickly on this region and are very well aware of its status

for some reason i do not think the taliban will die out anytime soon, nor do i think they will die out easily...

I dont think that they will die out soon either, I am saying that I think that they will be defeated soon (within the next couple years), sure there might always be a Taliban group, but they are becoming less and less influential and less and less of a threat to the government and the country.

[Darkseid]

they can abandon the region and regroup somewhere else, i see nothing stopping them from doing that.


If they take the migration process slowly then im sure they can get the whole lot to safety,

for some reason i do not think the taliban will die out anytime soon, nor do i think they will die out easily...

Of course not, they will die out during WWIII by an Indian nuke.

[wilberhum]

Pakistan army says fighters killed
Pakistani army helicopters attacked four vehicles carrying people fleeing the bombing of a military convoy in northwestern Pakistan, killing at least 10 fighters, according to an army spokesman.

Major-General Waheed Arshad said on Thursday the operation took place in North Waziristan after the explosion near the convoy wounded five soldiers.

He said army helicopters chased the fighters - who were carrying rocket launchers and small arms - to a petrol station, where they parked after fleeing the scene of the bombing.

Between 10 and 12 fighters were killed in the retaliatory attack, he said.

Violence has escalated in the tribal region and fighters have launched attacks almost every day since renouncing a peace accord with the government in July.
(More)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...AD986CE8B8.htm

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Interesting..

We always hear sucess stories murder of Taliban and no allied soldiers are killed and so on..


But the facts remain..

Soldeirs are still need and the only safe place is in Kabul..

Check out all the stories on the web..
http://news.google.com.sg/news?hl=en...&q=afghanistan

For the Taliban they are fighting in their homeland,for the allied forces how many soldeirs can they send to die?

Knowing they cant win the war the US have no choice but to use more and more devatating weaponry,but with every bombing ,a show of force,,all they do incite hate and anger....and thus the Taliban swell.

Inshallah,the fight agaisnt the Taliban is against Peace,agasint Afghans good.

An expale,un der the Afghans the drug was eradicated,under the allied forces,they allowed it...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

an interesting article..

cant beleive that Iran gave power to the Afghans....

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0810/p01s08-wosc.html

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes but when you say the Taliban fight respectfully they dont most of the time by being suicide bombers and killing school children on there way to school that is not how TRUE Taliban fight.

[wilberhum]

Salaam,

Interesting..

We always hear sucess stories murder of Taliban and no allied soldiers are killed and so on..


But the facts remain..

Soldeirs are still need and the only safe place is in Kabul..

Check out all the stories on the web..
http://news.google.com.sg/news?hl=en...&q=afghanistan

For the Taliban they are fighting in their homeland,for the allied forces how many soldeirs can they send to die?

Knowing they cant win the war the US have no choice but to use more and more devatating weaponry,but with every bombing ,a show of force,,all they do incite hate and anger....and thus the Taliban swell.

Inshallah,the fight agaisnt the Taliban is against Peace,agasint Afghans good.

An expale,un der the Afghans the drug was eradicated,under the allied forces,they allowed it...

That must explain why the major opium growing areas are under the Teliban. :skeleton:

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Many farmers in Afghanistan back the Taliban though dont they?

[Zulkiflim]

That must explain why the major opium growing areas are under the Teliban. :skeleton:

Salaam,

So the opium trade is now under the taliban,,would it not suggest that the taliban are then now "whooped"?

LOL..

Contradiction..

Seems that you just dont wish to see that your allied troops are not there for the Afhgan people are but for your own sake,,economics..

If the areas are udner taliban rule then it would mena that the Taliban rules..
the taliban would have the logistics to cater to every farmer,provide money for aid and logistics to trasport the drup and a refinery to process for trasportation and selling to toehr world markets.

Wow never Imagine the taliban is such a "mover"

LOL..

Or perhaps the CIA are using the drug to generate more "income" for other activities?
Would it be beyong them?

Nope..

http://www.serendipity.li/cia/cia_ly...#cia_and_drugs

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes what iam saying is the farmers are backing Taliban.

[wilberhum]

Yes but when you say the Taliban fight respectfully they dont most of the time by being suicide bombers and killing school children on there way to school that is not how TRUE Taliban fight.

Right, they only kill Korean hostages. :raging:

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

No that is GENOCIDE not fighting that is TOTALLY different that is wrong.

[wilberhum]

Salaam,

So the opium trade is now under the taliban,,would it not suggest that the taliban are then now "whooped"?

LOL..

Contradiction..

Seems that you just dont wish to see that your allied troops are not there for the Afhgan people are but for your own sake,,economics..

If the areas are udner taliban rule then it would mena that the Taliban rules..
the taliban would have the logistics to cater to every farmer,provide money for aid and logistics to trasport the drup and a refinery to process for trasportation and selling to toehr world markets.

Wow never Imagine the taliban is such a "mover"

LOL..

Or perhaps the CIA are using the drug to generate more "income" for other activities?
Would it be beyong them?

Nope..

http://www.serendipity.li/cia/cia_ly...#cia_and_drugs

You seam to have memory problems. Remember 9/11/2001?
Da :?

[MTAFFI]

Salaam,

So the opium trade is now under the taliban,,would it not suggest that the taliban are then now "whooped"?

LOL..

Contradiction..

Seems that you just dont wish to see that your allied troops are not there for the Afhgan people are but for your own sake,,economics..

If the areas are udner taliban rule then it would mena that the Taliban rules..
the taliban would have the logistics to cater to every farmer,provide money for aid and logistics to trasport the drup and a refinery to process for trasportation and selling to toehr world markets.

Wow never Imagine the taliban is such a "mover"

LOL..

Or perhaps the CIA are using the drug to generate more "income" for other activities?
Would it be beyong them?

Nope..

http://www.serendipity.li/cia/cia_ly...#cia_and_drugs

Taliban control the Helmand region, this region alone aco****s for 20% of the worlds opium, you can find the sources and other info on one of my previous responses on this thread.

LOL...

Ignorance....

As for the rest of your opinion, it is your right to have an opinion, if you think the Taliban is gaining ground, then say it and provide proof. IF you think that they can take care of their people, where is the proof? The Taliban are in a downward spiral, they lose everyday and they will continue to lose until they cease to exist or ask for a ceasefire.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

If The Taliban Are Getting Beat Then How Did They Capture Them South Koreans On A Main Highway In Afghanistan?

[Keltoi]

If The Taliban Are Getting Beat Then How Did They Capture Them South Koreans On A Main Highway In Afghanistan?

Taking people hostage isn't a sign of strength, it is a sign of desperation.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes I No It Is But That Area Is Not Controlled By The Government Of Afghanistan And Nato If The Taliban Can Wait On That Highway To Kidnap Them Poor People And It Happens With The Afghan Army And Police The Taliban Ambush There Convoys All The Time.

[bint_khalid]

Taliban wiped out opium when they controlled afghanistan, they managed to carry on with life and raise money through other means.

the media and most in the west like to tell lies and say taliban are behin opium production to fiannce themselves. thats rubbish. It would be haraam for them and furthermore if they are doing that now why did they get rid of it when they were in power.

[wilberhum]

Taliban wiped out opium when they controlled afghanistan, they managed to carry on with life and raise money through other means.

the media and most in the west like to tell lies and say taliban are behin opium production to fiannce themselves. thats rubbish. It would be haraam for them and furthermore if they are doing that now why did they get rid of it when they were in power.

Then can you explain why most all the opium comes from Taliban controled areas? :hmm:

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes he is right sorry brother.

[bint_khalid]

Then can you explain why most all the opium comes from Taliban controled areas? :hmm:

Because the land is more fertile in souther afghanistan, ideal for growing opium.
Also where did you get the fact most opium is from taliban controlled south ?

Lastly you ignored my comments, why did taliban wipe out opium growing when they were in power. Infact they were harsh against those who grew it.
if they wanted they could have flooded the west with heroin and made a lot of money when they were in power. no body was there to stop them.

[wilberhum]

Because the land is more fertile in souther afghanistan, ideal for growing opium.
Also where did you get the fact most opium is from taliban controlled south ?

Lastly you ignored my comments, why did taliban wipe out opium growing when they were in power. Infact they were harsh against those who grew it.
if they wanted they could have flooded the west with heroin and made a lot of money when they were in power. no body was there to stop them.

The best explanation I ever heard was to increase the price.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

The Taliban Only Really Control Helmand Provenice.

[bint_khalid]

The best explanation I ever heard was to increase the price.

lolzz you must kiddin' ....that doesnt make sense.
The taliban could have made a fortune out of opium production, they had the whole of afghanistan to grow opium and flood the west.
Now your saying they decided After they have been booted from power that they decide to grow opium. it doesnt make sense.
Why do you insist on denying the truth.

[wilberhum]

lolzz you must kiddin' ....that doesnt make sense.
The taliban could have made a fortune out of opium production, they had the whole of afghanistan to grow opium and flood the west.
Now your saying they decided After they have been booted from power that they decide to grow opium. it doesnt make sense.
Why do you insist on denying the truth.

The truth is that they are criminals. Local terrorists that protected international terrorists.

Nothing but a gang of thughs.

[bint_khalid]

The truth is that they are criminals. Local terrorists that protected international terrorists.

Nothing but a gang of thughs.

so you had nothing to say about the opium production. thank you, just like i thought you know im right.

[wilberhum]

What ever the case is with opium production, it doesn't change the fact that they are criminales.

[MTAFFI]

so you had nothing to say about the opium production. thank you, just like i thought you know im right.

How is this for an answer, opium production in afghanistan has never ceased to exist, even under the Talibans rule, they may have claimed to prohibit it but Afghan has never not been the number 1 producer in the last 15 to 20 years. Sure they put some farmers out of business but do you know why? It wasnt because it was against Islam it was because they were not getting a cut of their cash or as they called it a "Tax". Again perhaps you should take a look at the area the Taliban does control right now, Helmand, this province alone provides 20% of the entire worlds opium, what is your excuse for that? You act like the Taliban eradicated opium but the largest decrease in production was after the US led invasion in 2001, before that the levels actually increased more than decreased under taliban rule. So you are wrong my friend but it was a valiant effort on your part, unfortunately there are groups of people out there that actually keep track of these sorts of things:rollseyes

http://www.unodc.org/pdf/afghanistan...2005-09-09.pdf

[wilberhum]

Musharraf addresses Afghan jirga
The presidents of Pakistan and Afghanistan pledged on Sunday to work together to combat the common security threat of Taliban and al-Qaeda fighters.

Pervez Musharraf flew into Kabul on Sunday at the close of a four-day tribal council.

Relations between him and Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president, have been frosty in recent months.




Both countries pledged not to allow any sanctuaries or training centres for fighters on their soil.

The peace jirga in the Afghan capital brought together about 700 tribal elders, politicians and other figures from both sides of the border.
(More)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...299C6380B5.htm

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

But Pakistan Backed The Taliban Before 9/11 Didnt They?

[wilberhum]

But Pakistan Backed The Taliban Before 9/11 Didnt They?

I think they were the only country that recognized the Taliban government.
But they were Teliban supporters.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes Pakistan Saudi Arabia And The Uae Were The Only Three Countries In The World Who Recongnised The Taliban.

[Fishman]

:sl:
I wish people here would stop ranting on as if the Taliban administation is the Caliphate or something. The Taliban are nothing but terrorists who don't know anything about how Muslims should act. Sure they pray five times a day, but it obviously doesn't get through to them properly... :cry:

BTW, this doesn't make me some sort of pro-US Israel supporting crusader, in my opinion if the US was more sensible with its foregin policy and Israel stopped its mindless agressive brutality the world would be a much safer place. Its just that we don't live in a world where every single Muslim is completely innocent.
:w:

[wilberhum]

:sl:
I wish people here would stop ranting on as if the Taliban administation is the Caliphate or something. The Taliban are nothing but terrorists who don't know anything about how Muslims should act. Sure they pray five times a day, but it obviously doesn't get through to them properly... :cry:

BTW, this doesn't make me some sort of pro-US Israel supporting crusader, in my opinion if the US was more sensible with its foregin policy and Israel stopped its mindless agressive brutality the world would be a much safer place. Its just that we don't live in a world where every single Muslim is completely innocent.
:w:

Well said. I agree.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes But They Arnt Likr Bin Laden And Al Queda They Havant Done Anythinh Bad Until They Killed Them Poor Hostages.

[wilberhum]

Yes But They Arnt Likr Bin Laden And Al Queda They Havant Done Anythinh Bad Until They Killed Them Poor Hostages.

That depends on what you call bad. I concider getting people to blow them selves up in market places bad. But maybe that's just me.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

There Is No Proof That This Is The Taliban Again It Could Be Al Queda.

[wilberhum]

There Is No Proof That This Is The Taliban Again It Could Be Al Queda.

IMHO Different sides of the same coin.

[snakelegs]

:sl:
I wish people here would stop ranting on as if the Taliban administation is the Caliphate or something. The Taliban are nothing but terrorists who don't know anything about how Muslims should act. Sure they pray five times a day, but it obviously doesn't get through to them properly... :cry:

BTW, this doesn't make me some sort of pro-US Israel supporting crusader, in my opinion if the US was more sensible with its foregin policy and Israel stopped its mindless agressive brutality the world would be a much safer place. Its just that we don't live in a world where every single Muslim is completely innocent.
:w:

i agree, and the more i learn about them, the more i am convinced that they don't even know their islam. they are probably sincere, but they are ignorant.
many muslims accept them blindly as the champions of islam, because that is how they present themselves. if some one or group says they are for shariah, there are those who will automatically, blindly applaud them.
and even worse - many non-muslims also accept them blindly as the champions of islam, as representing islam.
good to see you back, btw.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

No Al Queda Are Terrirists The Taliban Is Apolitical Movement.

[KAding]

Yes But They Arnt Likr Bin Laden And Al Queda They Havant Done Anythinh Bad Until They Killed Them Poor Hostages.

It's not the first time they took hostages though, or even that they killed them.

Any foreigners, civilian or not runs the risk of being kidnapped in Taliban-controlled areas. In general this means that especially journalists and aid workers run great risks. I suppose that through Taliban eyes, all non-Muslims or Afghan civilians who work for the government are legitimate targets.

Some kidnappings:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...497269,00.html
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/6231324.html
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/ISL193246.htm
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...ing-Threat.php
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...377566,00.html
etc...

[KAding]

No Al Queda Are Terrirists The Taliban Is Apolitical Movement.

How can they be apolitical if they were the government only 5 years ago? They were making laws and implementing them. Isn't a government by definition political?

[Keltoi]

How can they be apolitical if they were the government only 5 years ago? They were making laws and implementing them. Isn't a government by definition political?

:D ...I think he meant " a political movement".

[KAding]

:D ...I think he meant " a political movement".

Ah. LOL :embarrass. I could have known that I suppose, reading the sentence again.

Oh well... :D

[bint_khalid]

market bombings that you see in iraq, and the other bombings against civilians are done by the west to create tension amongst the population and to start a civil war.
The truth is america is loosing the war, they want the insurgents to stop attacking american soldiers and they just want sunni and shiites to kill each other.

[Chechnya]

funny how the taliban have been getting "whipped" for the last 6 years but still are fighting - and according to many analysts - getting stronger...:uhwhat

[jzcasejz]

The Taliban are nothing but terrorists who don't know anything about how Muslims should act. Sure they pray five times a day, but it obviously doesn't get through to them properly... :cry:

Bro, you are entitled to your own opinions, and I respect that, but you ain't doing your fellow Muslim Brothers any justice by making statements like that in public. You can make Du'a for them so Allaah (SWT) can guide them...but to speak like that about your fellow Muslims is not fair considering their country, Afghaanistan, has been in a total mess for the last decade and their conditions are really rough. And no, that does not mean I'm justifying them killing hostages beacuse that on the other hand is just wrong.

Wa'alaykum Salaam

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

yes keep your opinions to yourself brother please.

[MTAFFI]

funny how the taliban have been getting "whipped" for the last 6 years but still are fighting - and according to many analysts - getting stronger...:uhwhat

Stronger?!:giggling: :uhwhat According to what analysts? LOL

[MTAFFI]

Bro, you are entitled to your own opinions, and I respect that, but you ain't doing your fellow Muslim Brothers any justice by making statements like that in public. You can make Du'a for them so Allaah (SWT) can guide them...but to speak like that about your fellow Muslims is not fair considering their country, Afghaanistan, has been in a total mess for the last decade and their conditions are really rough. And no, that does not mean I'm justifying them killing hostages beacuse that on the other hand is just wrong.

Wa'alaykum Salaam

what makes a Muslim a Muslim to you? If someone is to call themself a muslim but not act like a Muslim are they still a muslim to you? If so, then if everyone reverted to Islam but no one wanted to walk in the footsteps of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) would you still defend them? Make Du'a for them, yes, stay silent about injustice and misrepresentation, no. It is acting like a Muslim that makes you a Muslim, not just saying that you are. The Taliban are wrong and have been wrong from day one, they are transgressors.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

There Is No Doubt That The Taliban Is Getting Stronger.

[MTAFFI]

There Is No Doubt That The Taliban Is Getting Stronger.

care to provide proof? I could supply some to PROVE otherwise

Of course if this is just an opinion then please just let us know and it will be treated as such :okay:

[Woodrow]

We all have opinions and my conclusion in reading through here is most of us want to be arm chair experts on Islam, Afghanistan, and Taliban. I would say that unless we have lived in Afghanistan, as a Muslim under Taliban rule our opinions are of as much value as a fireworks display. Pretty and noisy, but leaves no lasting useful product.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

356 American Troops Have Died In Afghanistan And 70 British Troops Have Died.

[bint_khalid]

Stronger?!:giggling: :uhwhat According to what analysts? LOL

care to provide proof? I could supply some to PROVE otherwise

Of course if this is just an opinion then please just let us know and it will be treated as such :okay:

if you look at official casualty rates amongst coalition troops the numbers have been rising since 2001

2007 206
+ 2006 401
+ 2005 267
+ 2004 214
+ 2003 97
+ 2002 72
+ 2001 35

http://www.icasualties.org/oef/

[bint_khalid]

casualties have been rising since 2001

http://www.icasualties.org/oef/
2007 70 66 136
+ 2006 98 93 191
+ 2005 99 31 130
+ 2004 52 6 58
+ 2003 48 9 57
+ 2002 48 20 68
+ 2001 12 0 12
Total 427 225 652

[MTAFFI]

356 American Troops Have Died In Afghanistan And 70 British Troops Have Died.

so what? You call that a victory?!?! LOL what a measley number, if they only kill 1000 troops but are forced from power and do not regain it and are left in the state they are in now, then it would still be worth it. Lives are expected to be lost when you are at war. Care to talk about how many taliban have been killed?

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Good Point.......allright Then 3684 American Troops Have Died In Iraq.

[MTAFFI]

Good Point.......allright Then 3684 American Troops Have Died In Iraq.

I dont agree with the Iraq war, in my opinion, we should have left when we hung Saddam

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

We Shoundnt Of Invaded In The First Place I Think.

[al-muslimah]

" And do not think that the ones killed in the path of Allah are did no, they are alive finding their sustenence in the presence of their lord ".(Al-Imran,v.169). :)

[jzcasejz]

what makes a Muslim a Muslim to you? If someone is to call themself a muslim but not act like a Muslim are they still a muslim to you? If so, then if everyone reverted to Islam but no one wanted to walk in the footsteps of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) would you still defend them? Make Du'a for them, yes, stay silent about injustice and misrepresentation, no. It is acting like a Muslim that makes you a Muslim, not just saying that you are. The Taliban are wrong and have been wrong from day one, they are transgressors.

First of all, I don't wanna take part in a debate since I wasn't taking any sides. The main message of my post was that a Muslim should not speak like that about another Brother and that is the reason why I quoted that specific part of the post. The post mentioned stuff about their prayers...and their prayers are with God...so how can we Muslims judge their prayers? That's all I was saying. I even specifically said I respect his opinion of the Taliban...just that we shouldn't speak ill about their acts of worship i.e. their prayer. I sure as hell would be displeased if someone said my prayers were not doing me any good. I pray but sometimes may commit a sin...does that mean my prayers are not doing me any good? Only Allaah (SWT) knows and we should always remain hopeful of our prayers.

And yes! One has every right to speak out against injustice. I myself even personally said killing hostages wrong. Was I not speaking out against injustice? The main message of my post to the Bro was not to speak like that about fellow Muslims. And now to another subject...judging by your post, you're implying that the Taliban are not Muslims based on their actions?

Well, unless you can get clear evidence they they're not Muslims...then you're right. But to claim someone is a non-muslim over a few sins is wrong. Yes - sinners who still bear witness the Shahaadah are still Muslims...as long as it's not from the major nullifiers of al-Islaam. Indeed, it was the ways of the Khawaarij in which they declared anyone who commits grave sins as non-muslims. Even if a Muslim is a sinner, we should not disown him and speak ill of them - but rather we should remain hopeful for them. And this issue of declaring others non-muslim is dangerous...so I personally would not declare, nor think, of anyone as non-muslim. This stuff is best left to the Scholars.

BTW, when saying a sinner is still a Muslim, that does not mean any kaafir can take the Shahaadah and do sins and get rewarded Paradise. Everyone will be punished and rewarded accordingly. Only Allaah (SWT) knows who's sincere and who's not.

[bint_khalid]

" And do not think that the ones killed in the path of Allah are did no, they are alive finding their sustenence in the presence of their lord ".(Al-Imran,v.169). :)

:thumbs_up
jazakallah sister:)

[MTAFFI]

We Shoundnt Of Invaded In The First Place I Think.

In hindsight, no I dont think we should have, but at the time I must admit I agreed with it. I thought of it as knocking out two birds with one stone, 1) get rid of a dictator and free an oppressed people 2) take out a potential terrorist haven.

It seems now that all we have done is make an even bigger mess, so to your point, no I dont think we should have picked this time to invade but I will say that at some point someone had to put Saddam down, he was a ruthless and evil man. I think the timing was bad though.

[MTAFFI]

" And do not think that the ones killed in the path of Allah are did no, they are alive finding their sustenence in the presence of their lord ".(Al-Imran,v.169). :)

good quote:)

[MTAFFI]

First of all, I don't wanna take part in a debate since I wasn't taking any sides. The main message of my post was that a Muslim should not speak like that about another Brother and that is the reason why I quoted that specific part of the post. The post mentioned stuff about their prayers...and their prayers are with God...so how can we Muslims judge their prayers? That's all I was saying. I even specifically said I respect his opinion of the Taliban...just that we shouldn't speak ill about their acts of worship i.e. their prayer. I sure as hell would be displeased if someone said my prayers were not doing me any good. I pray but sometimes may commit a sin...does that mean my prayers are not doing me any good? Only Allaah (SWT) knows and we should always remain hopeful of our prayers.

...

I am sincerely sorry, I think that I must have misinterpreted your post. I agree with you that no ones prayers should be judged or that they may not be doing any good. I didnt take it as skywalker or fishman were judging their prayers so I guess that is why I got a little confused, I took it as they were saying that they pray but they dont take action to not commit the sins that they are committing. I think your final statement says it all

when saying a sinner is still a Muslim, that does not mean any kaafir can take the Shahaadah and do sins and get rewarded Paradise. Everyone will be punished and rewarded accordingly. Only Allaah (SWT) knows who's sincere and who's not.

I apologize for the misunderstanding, but thank you for clearing yourself up :)

[snakelegs]

funny how the taliban have been getting "whipped" for the last 6 years but still are fighting - and according to many analysts - getting stronger...:uhwhat

yup - this is what i read also. they are in complete control now of some areas in afghanistan and some villages in pakistan. in pakistan, their influence is growing and spreading.
to say that they're "getting whipped" may be wishful thinking, but that is not what is going on, from everything i can tell.

[snakelegs]

We all have opinions and my conclusion in reading through here is most of us want to be arm chair experts on Islam, Afghanistan, and Taliban. I would say that unless we have lived in Afghanistan, as a Muslim under Taliban rule our opinions are of as much value as a fireworks display. Pretty and noisy, but leaves no lasting useful product.

i agree with you in principle. but in reality - think about it - if we all only spoke about that which we know for sure, you would be able to cut the silence with a knife!
i live in california - do i know everything that is happening in my state? i live in a small town - do i know everything that is going on here?
does anyone really?
if there were no "arm chair experts" there would be no forums at all!
so we will all continue to make noise and go blah blah blah and most of us will be under the temporary delusion that we actually know what we are talking about.
and hopefully, we will learn to listen to and respect each other more.

[Woodrow]

i agree with you in principle. but in reality - think about it - if we all only spoke about that which we know for sure, you would be able to cut the silence with a knife!
i live in california - do i know everything that is happening in my state? i live in a small town - do i know everything that is going on here?
does anyone really?
if there were no "arm chair experts" there would be no forums at all!
so we will all continue to make noise and go blah blah blah and most of us will be under the temporary delusion that we actually know what we are talking about.
and hopefully, we will learn to listen to and respect each other more.

That is quite true. But, we all must be mindful that each post, including this one, is essentially an opinion and should not be taken as the only possibility.

The posts that may carry more credibility would be those of people actually experiencing the conditions.

[metalted]

for those who think the taliban was simpley misunderstood.. maybe you should check out poll findings in afganistan. over all they are extremely positive and optmistic. There is more support for the ousting of the taliban then there is support for president bush in america.. lol..


An ABC News poll in Afghanistan -- the first national survey there sponsored by a news organization -- underscores those challenges in a unique portrait of the lives of ordinary Afghans. Poverty is deep, medical care and other basic services lacking, and infrastructure minimal. Nearly six in 10 have no electricity in their homes, and just 3 percent have it around the clock. Seven in 10 Afghan adults have no more than an elementary education; half have no schooling whatsoever. Half have household incomes under $500 a year

Public Attitudes in Afghanistan
Right Direction Wrong Direction
Current Direction 77% 6%


U.S.-Led Overthrow of Taliban
Good Thing Bad Thing
Taliban Ouster 87% 9%

Yet despite these and other deprivations, 77 percent of Afghans say their country is headed in the right direction -- compared with 30 percent in the vastly better-off United States. Ninety-one percent prefer the current Afghan government to the Taliban regime, and 87 percent call the U.S.-led overthrow of the Taliban good for their country. Osama bin Laden, for his part, is as unpopular as the Taliban; nine in 10 view him unfavorably.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ory?id=1363276

[bint_khalid]

ABC NEWS POLL!!;D ;D ;D , you actually expect me to take their poll seriously? ;Dlolzz

[thirdwatch512]

the Koreans disobeyed the law of the nation and thus must pay the price. They were preaching Christianity and thus were arrested. they should be persecuted and made an example of. We do not appreciate illegal wars and invasions of our lands and then sending your missionary's to exploit the poor and whose lives you have ravaged with your barbarism.

What kind of person are you?

These Christians were doing nothing. They were helping the poor. They were not evengelizing anyone.

How dare you say such barbaric things.

[metalted]

or you could believe.. whom?

[bint_khalid]

or you could believe.. whom?

salaams
to be honest with you i dont really trust the media in anything they say, especially all these polls and surveys they do.
ABC,fox news, sky news, CNN etc are all biased and ofcoursre anti taliban. so you dont expect any truth from them regarding the taliban.

[metalted]

salaams
to be honest with you i dont really trust the media in anything they say, especially all these polls and surveys they do.
ABC,fox news, sky news, CNN etc are all biased and ofcoursre anti taliban. so you dont expect any truth from them regarding the taliban.

so you prefer to believe whatever you wish to believe without sources or knowledge of any kind. Am I correct?

[KAding]

salaams
to be honest with you i dont really trust the media in anything they say, especially all these polls and surveys they do.
ABC,fox news, sky news, CNN etc are all biased and ofcoursre anti taliban. so you dont expect any truth from them regarding the taliban.

But again, from whom can you get information about the Taliban then? If you don't trust polling in Afghanistan, what do you trust? Surely, mere anecdotal cannot be trusted, since you can easily find both those who support the Taliban and those who hate them.

Maybe the national election in which over half of the people went to vote for the new president can be seen as a legitimization of the new institutions? Why would people go out and vote if they hate and don't accept the new system?

Are there any indications at all that Afghans, or even among the Pashtuns, would rather live under the rule of the Taliban than that of the current government?

[bint_khalid]

But again, from whom can you get information about the Taliban then? If you don't trust polling in Afghanistan, what do you trust? Surely, mere anecdotal cannot be trusted, since you can easily find both those who support the Taliban and those who hate them.

Maybe the national election in which over half of the people went to vote for the new president can be seen as a legitimization of the new institutions? Why would people go out and vote if they hate and don't accept the new system?

Are there any indications at all that Afghans, or even among the Pashtuns, would rather live under the rule of the Taliban than that of the current government?

salaams
the afghan elections just like the iraq elections were blatantly rigged, do you really think the coalition forces would allow a proper fair election? course they wouldnt because they know the general public is for the taliban and for saddam.
even many shiites who lived under saddam have openly said it was better under saddam. And these were the people who were supposedly oppressed by saddam.
Ofcourse people want the taliban back, who doesnt want to live in a virtual crime free zone, an environment where women can walk at night alone without fear, someone can leave 1000 dollars lying in the street and nobody dare touch that money.
sure they're must have been some bad apples amongst the taliban who still have backward culture in them, but the talibans intention was good and they tried to do what islam told them to do.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

I Know It Is Kind Of Funny In A Way It Is Also Kind Of Sick And Wrong To Invade Two Contries.

[Idris]

Unbelievable: Taliban Getting Stronger

by paradox
As part of our record $495 billion defense budget the Army is taking the unusual step of going around the Secretary’s office—Rumsfeld—to submit final budgeting proposals to the OMB. Rumsfeld cannot do it himself because the Army proposal contradicts two of his most cherished goals: decreasing personnel and buying new generations of super-techno equipment.

Unsaid in the source above is that the Army is desperate to get more men and equipment replaced because every day the Army spends losing in Iraq and Afghanistan is a day it gets progressively weaker.

Should one of our NATO allies face invasion this year we, the strongest nation on earth, would not be able to help. $450 billion annually has, this very day, delivered a busted Army desperate to get its equipment back, unable to undertake any mission other than limping home and trying to get whole again.

With this comforting news arrives word that the Taliban is getting stronger in Afghanistan. Does anyone else remember winter and spring of 2002? Bush had 90&#37; approval ratings, the media was a laser on Afghanistan, and soon there was a incessant amount of crowing in the great victory over the Taliban. Just four years ago, yet the Taliban are back. Unbelievable.

Bush and the he-man kick-ass killer Republicans, so sneeringly contemptuous of weak, know-nothing-defense Democrats, have utterly failed in every military goal given to them in six years. They’ve alienated the world against us, become war criminals, killed tens of thousands, spent an incomprehensible fortune, broken the Army and lied spectacularly about it all the whole time.

It goes without saying we are much, much less safer losing in Iraq and Afghanistan. We’re still broke and borrowing like mad. There is no one, not a Democrat or Republican, on the horizon who has any answer on how to get us out of these incredible extremely dangerous messes. Naturally, the United States chose to get itself into this path of self-destruction. Perhaps the next time some insane mental patients say we should go to war for something a country might do to us we should lock them up instead of listening seriously to them.

There is no way the US or the UK is winning or will win this so caled "war"
Congress has allocated $495 billion for Afghanistan, Iraq and terrorism-related efforts.
Afghanistan is an impoverished country, one of the world's poorest and least developed. Two-thirds of the population lives on fewer than 2 US dollars a day, but however the Taliban has been a horn in the butt of the US and the UK.

[Woodrow]

There is no way the US or the UK is winning or will win this so caled "war"

That is very true. No matter what the outcome is it is a loss. At the moment I see it as being a lose-lose situation with no winners.

Iraq has faced a tremendous loss in terms of lives and material. The USA and UK have also needlessly lost the same. The hardships and ill resulting will take a long time to reconcile.

Anybody who thinks they are a winner, is not capable of understanding loss in my opinion.

[MTAFFI]

There is no way the US or the UK is winning or will win this so caled "war"
Congress has allocated $495 billion for Afghanistan, Iraq and terrorism-related efforts.
Afghanistan is an impoverished country, one of the world's poorest and least developed. Two-thirds of the population lives on fewer than 2 US dollars a day, but however the Taliban has been a horn in the butt of the US and the UK.

first off rumsfield was still in office when this was written
second how much of that 495 goes to afghan now with NATO troops there
third they are a horn because they are funded by Iran and others, their people are poor but the Taliban are supplied
fourth by "winning" I mean they are not support by the vast majority of the people, they die in high numbers everyday, and they are heard and seen less and less. By "winning" I mean the original and current objectives have been and are being acheived everyday

As far as Iraq goes, well that is another story and another type of people

[Chechnya]

It took the Afghans ten years, to defeat the Soviet invaders - i predict a neat 15 years for them to kick out the current invaders.

[Keltoi]

It took the Afghans ten years, to defeat the Soviet invaders - i predict a neat 15 years for them to kick out the current invaders.

That might make sense if the majority of the Afghan people supported such an endeavor, but they don't.

[islamirama]

It took the Afghans ten years, to defeat the Soviet invaders - i predict a neat 15 years for them to kick out the current invaders.

The british empire couldn't take them, the Russian empire failed, what chance does this next failing empire has? As one of the Russians were much more ruthless and barbaric in how they tortured these people, and yet they lost. As one of the Generals said, "how can you fight man who looks into the barrel of a gun and sees paradise".

Pashtuns are proud people and they would rather die fighting then let anyone rule over them.

[MTAFFI]

Pashtuns are proud people and they would rather die fighting then let anyone rule over them.

does that include the Taliban? As Keltoi said, in the past the people of Afghanistan backed the Taliban, this time the majority are not

[islamirama]

does that include the Taliban? As Keltoi said, in the past the people of Afghanistan backed the Taliban, this time the majority are not

Check your sources again. The western powers had the North Alliance (warlords) have beat women up and showed them as "taleban" beating women, one of many propagandas they showed the dumb americans. It is the people that went to the Talebans against these warlords who were raping and killing as they pleased. And it is the US that bombed and invaded afghan and then put these same warlords in power as the new Gov't. Only people against taleban were the liberals who want to wear miniskirts and what not in public, they account of less than 1% yet the western media gives them the voice as if they are the majority. If no body liked the talebans, how are they able to hide in homes and blend in with public without anyone turning against them. You forget, taleban is not some qaeda from foreign land, they are the natives themselves. And they all will stick together despite what ever lies your gov't tell you about them.

[Keltoi]

Check your sources again. The western powers had the North Alliance (warlords) have beat women up and showed them as "taleban" beating women, one of many propagandas they showed the dumb americans. It is the people that went to the Talebans against these warlords who were raping and killing as they pleased. And it is the US that bombed and invaded afghan and then put these same warlords in power as the new Gov't. Only people against taleban were the liberals who want to wear miniskirts and what not in public, they account of less than 1% yet the western media gives them the voice as if they are the majority. If no body liked the talebans, how are they able to hide in homes and blend in with public without anyone turning against them. You forget, taleban is not some qaeda from foreign land, they are the natives themselves. And they all will stick together despite what ever lies your gov't tell you about them.

There didn't have to be propoganda on beating women by the Taliban. The video most Americans saw showed members of the Taliban's religious police beating up a Tajik woman with a stick. Not to mention the infamous video of a woman being shot in the back of the head at a soccer stadium.

As for Taliban support or lack thereof, like most things it depends on what particular people you are talking about. Those Afghans who resent the opium eradication policies probably do support the Taliban, who only taxed them 20% and called it zakat. It is fairly obvious that no popular insurgency exists in Afghanistan. The majority of the insurgency now calls Pakistan home.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes I Always Watch Al Jazeera English They Arnt Anti Taliban And Say The Truth About What Is Going On In Afghanistan.

[NoName55]

Afghans who resent the opium eradication policies probably do support the Taliban, who only taxed them 20&#37; and called it zakat.

Rubbish! (Even though I hated the taleban as they were and still are ignorant morons) Under them opium cultivation was punishable by death and they had almost succeeded in eradicating it until king DumBush installed northern alliance, one of the most deviated and worst criminal gangs on planet.

It is fairly obvious that no popular insurgency exists in Afghanistan. The majority of the insurgency now calls Pakistan home.

Is that a hint at bombing us next? if it is then just remember that we will be a bit more difficult than taleban.

Remember stingers versus commie gunships?

Thanks to CIA, I think they had over-supplied us a little bit, after northern alliance stole some to take to Iran, we may have had 1 or 2 left over even after returning leftovers to U.S.A. As you may already know that we are quite good at reverse engineering. And I suspect that replicas were used, quite successfully against hindu airforce during Kargil.

[islamirama]

There didn't have to be propoganda on beating women by the Taliban. The video most Americans saw showed members of the Taliban's religious police beating up a Tajik woman with a stick. Not to mention the infamous video of a woman being shot in the back of the head at a soccer stadium.

As for Taliban support or lack thereof, like most things it depends on what particular people you are talking about. Those Afghans who resent the opium eradication policies probably do support the Taliban, who only taxed them 20% and called it zakat. It is fairly obvious that no popular insurgency exists in Afghanistan. The majority of the insurgency now calls Pakistan home.

Yea the woman being beat with a stick was by a warlord, the northern alliance thugs that your gov't handed over the nation to. You talk as if you know everything and sadly enough, all you know is what you are told and shown on the tv that spreads lies and deception to promote bush's agenda.
Please don't make yourself look stupid (same goes for other friends of yours here). You guys talking about these issues is like someone from over there talking about how blacks do nothing but rape and mug you and whites are nothing but crackers. Your knowledge is limited and what little you do have is filtered and distorted not to mention falsified before being presented.

[metalted]

I know northern alliance were not saints, but it appears to me they were much better then the taliban. I have a question, what is so appealing about islamic theocracies?
this is what women do when they are forced to marry people that they are not happy with..

Self-Immolations on Rise in Afghanistan

HERAT, Afghanistan (The LA Times) - Early in the morning as her father was saying his prayers, 20-year-old Ahbeda -- engaged to marry her first cousin at the family&#180;s bidding -- apparently doused herself with fuel and set herself afire.

A few hours later, she was swaddled in bandages in the primitive burn unit at Herat Public Hospital, writhing in pain and gasping for air, with burns covering her entire body. Her hair was mostly singed off, her lips nearly gone, her face a blackened blur, her odds of survival slim.

Two other young women, who also apparently had set themselves ablaze, lay in nearby beds.

Such self-immolations are becoming disturbingly common among young women in western Afghanistan. Although statistics aren&#180;t available, the hospital&#180;s doctors report that they appear to be on the rise.

An average of three girls arrive at the regional hospital each week, most with life-threatening burns covering more than 40&#37; of their bodies. The hospital has had more than 100 cases this year, the doctors say, with most of the young women dying soon after arrival.

The typical victim is 14 to 20 years old and is trying to escape a marriage arranged by her father, the hospital staff says. Often, the marriage is to an older man who has another wife and children, in a society where it is not uncommon for men to have multiple wives. For example, a 14-year-old arrived recently at the hospital in critical condition with only her palms unscorched. She had been given in marriage to a 60-year-old married man with grown children.

Conditions for women have improved somewhat since the ouster of the Taliban a year ago. Schools hum with the voices of eager girls who were barred from formal education under the old regime and whose parents, for the most part, are glad to have them back in the classroom. Television features some female broadcasters. And ever so slowly, women are poking their heads out in public from under the head-to-toe burkas that were mandatory under the Taliban -- although they have yet to shed the garments, fearing harassment from men on the streets.

Nonetheless, people who had expected social changes for women have been disappointed on many counts, with lingering attitudes in many families a huge block to liberation.

Most Afghan girls and women are still expected to cover their bodies, be subservient, remain mostly apart from men, even in the home when guests arrive, and live with their husbands&#180; families. There has been no return to the 1980s, when Afghanistan was under Soviet control and women in the cities could safely wear miniskirts in public.

Dr. Shehin Entazary, a female surgeon who has treated many of the burn victims, attributes the problems in part to illiteracy among the young women, who lost six years of schooling under the Taliban, and their families.

"I am struggling to stop families from giving their daughters to married men," she said. "Why would they give them to someone who is married and has children? Some people think it&#180;s customary to give their daughters to married men.

"Women never have any rights," she added.

The influence of slightly more liberal Iran also might be feeding frustration. Some of the burn victims had lived there as refugees while Afghanistan was under Taliban rule beginning in the mid-1990s. They returned to a homeland that offers women even fewer rights.

Dowries are particularly daunting in Afghanistan. In a poor nation, older and more established men are more apt to be able to afford the $500 to $1,500 that the groom and his family are expected to pony up.

"It&#180;s like the girls are animals being sold," said Dr. Saleha Hekamt, a female surgeon at the hospital.

The self-immolations have been given a lot of attention by Herat&#180;s public television station, which might have given rise to copycat incidents. One doctor&#180;s young daughter surprised her by threatening to burn herself when she was angry about something.

Local warlord Ismail Khan, who controls much of western Afghanistan, has visited the burn ward and implored girls not to take their lives. He talked to one victim in a televised interview in which she expressed remorse for trying to kill herself. The young woman said she had burned herself because she wanted to have her wedding at a better hall than the families had arranged.

Khan promptly ordered all wedding halls closed and a new one built for everyone to use, so there would be no class distinction in the ceremonies. But the new structure is still far from completion, and the others soon reopened.

To help combat the attempted suicides and other problems, the TV station is running a series of programs titled "Mirror of Edification." Some deal with teaching husbands how they should talk to their wives and how family members should relate to one another.

It might help. Some who burned themselves were chafing under their husbands&#180; control.

In the bed next to Ahbeda, 27-year-old Fatena initially told doctors that she had set herself on fire because her husband refused to let her watch television. She then said it was an accident. Asked how women are doing in Afghanistan, she replied through her bandages: "All Afghan women have a dark future. Now we have peace, but we still have family problems."

Asked how her husband treats her, she replied, "My husband is a nice man, but he does not have a job."

The night before, a woman named Paimana came in with burns over 90% of her body after setting herself ablaze. She had been married for three years and had a 2-year-old daughter. Her husband had left her, and she was in despair.

In some cases, family members have set the victims on fire. One woman burned her daughter-in-law for reasons that were not clear. The victim died, but the older woman was not punished, doctors said.

If the girls are alive when they get to the hospital, they probably won&#180;t get much better, given the deplorable conditions.

At Ahbeda&#180;s bedside, her father, mother and another woman in a burka tried to hold her writhing limbs still. The room buzzed with people tending the six other burn patients.

Her father&#180;s bright greenish-blue eyes welled with tears as he explained what happened. He had been saying his prayers when he heard a yell from the kitchen and found his daughter burned.

The family had made the decision that Ahbeda would marry the cousin, a farmer, but the father insists that she had agreed.

"My daughter was happy. It was no problem," the father said. Outside the room, Ahbeda&#180;s 21-year-old fiance, Faqir Ahmad, also wept. "I don&#180;t know why this happened."

He had been able to pay only about $300 of the $1,500 dowry, he said, so they weren&#180;t even sure when the wedding would be. "She was my cousin, my relative. She had agreed."

But parents here sometimes don&#180;t tell the truth, said Hekamt, the surgeon. The families fear -- incorrectly -- that doctors won&#180;t treat the young women if the injuries were self-inflicted. If the daughters can talk, they often tell the doctors the truth.
http://www.rawa.org/immolation.htm

[metalted]

Heres another list of taliban atrocities, all before we invaded.

The Afghan people have been the primary victims of Taliban misrule, since the Taliban came to power in 1996. The Taliban militia was formed in 1994, in response to human rights abuses by other warring factions in Afghanistan. By 1996, the Taliban had captured Kabul, and, with claims to religious as well as political authority, began a reign of terror. The Taliban have made the Afghan people the unwilling hosts of foreign armed terrorists, who have exploited and endangered the Afghan people, and made Afghanistan a pariah in the world community.

This updated fact sheet outlines documented atrocities and human rights abuses committed by the Taliban against the Afghan people.

Massacres

The Taliban have massacred hundreds of Afghan civilians, including women and children, in Yakaolang, Mazar-I-Sharif, Bamiyan, Qezelabad, and other towns. Many of the victims of these massacres were targeted because of their ethnic or religious identity.

Massacre at Yakaolang: January 2001

Taliban forces committed a massacre in Yakaolang in January 2001. The victims were primarily Hazaras. The massacre began on January 8, 2001, and continued for four days. The Taliban detained about 300 civilian adult males, including staff members of local humanitarian organizations. The men were herded to assembly points, and then shot by firing squad in public view. According to Human Rights Watch, about 170 men are confirmed to have been killed. According to Amnesty International, eyewitnesses reported the deliberate killing of dozens of civilians hiding in a mosque: Taliban soldiers fired rockets into a mosque where some 73 women, children and elderly men had taken shelter.

Massacre at Robatak Pass: May 2000

The May 2000 massacre took place near the Robatak pass. 31 bodies were found one site, of these, 26 were positively identified as civilians. The victims were Hazara Shi'as.

Massacre in Bamiyan: 1999

When the Taliban recaptured Bamiyan in 1999, there were reports that Taliban forces carried out summary executions upon entering the city. According to Amnesty International, hundreds of men, and some instances women and children, were separated from their families, taken away, and killed. Human Rights Watch reports that besides executing civilians, the Taliban burned homes and used detainees for forced labor.

Massacre in the Shomaili Plains: July 1999

Human Rights Watch reports that a Taliban offensive here was marked by summary executions, the abduction and disappearance of women, the burning of homes, destruction of property, and the cutting down of fruit trees. According to a report by the U.N. Secretary General on November 16, 1999, "The Taliban forces, who allegedly carried out these acts, essentially treated the civilian population with hostility and made no distinction between combatants and non-combatants."

Massacre in Mazar-I-Sharif: August 1998

In August 1998, the Taliban captured Mazar-I-Sharif. There were reports that between 2,000 and 5,000 men, women and children -- mostly ethnic Hazara civilians -- were massacred by the Taliban after the takeover of Mazar-I-Sharif. During the massacre, the Taliban forces carried out a systematic search for male members for the ethnic Hazara, Tajik, and Uzbek communities in the city. Human Rights Watch estimates that scores, perhaps hundreds, of Hazara men and boys were summarily executed. There were also reports that women and girls were raped and abducted during the Taliban takeover of the city.

Massacre in Mazar-I-Sharif: September 1997

Retreating Taliban forces summarily executed Hazara villagers near Mazar-I-Sharif, after having failed to capture the city. Amnesty International reported that the Taliban massacred 70 Hazara civilians, including children, in Qezelabad, near Mazar-I-Sharif. There were also reports that the Taliban forces in Faryab province killed some 600 civilians in late 1997.

Other Massacres: On at least two occasions, according to Human Rights Watch, the Taliban killed delegations of Hazara elders who had attempted to intercede with them.

Human Rights Abuses Against Women and Girls

Taliban rule has been particularly harsh for Afghan women and girls. Taliban restrictions against women and girls are widespread, institutionally sanctioned, and systematic in Taliban-controlled areas of Afghanistan.

• Girls are formally prohibited from attending school.

• Women are prohibited, with very few exceptions, from working outside the home, and are forbidden to leave their homes except in the company of a male relative. These restrictions are devastating for the thousands of Afghan war widows, who have reportedly been reduced to selling their possessions or begging to feed their families.

• The Taliban have significantly reduced women's access to health care, by decreeing that women can only be treated by women doctors.

• The Taliban threaten and beat women to enforce the Taliban's dress code for women.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

The Truth Is There Needs To Be A Meeting Between The Afghan Goverment And The Taliban.

[islamirama]

I know northern alliance were not saints, but it appears to me they were much better then the taliban. I have a question, what is so appealing about islamic theocracies?.

You seriously have no clue if you think northern alliance were better than the talibans. the NA murdered and raped as they pleased. The rise of Talebans was because of them. They had kidnapped a teen girl and were holding her hostage to rape, and the girl's family unable to find help anywhere went to a school teacher pleading for help. The teacher took his students (talebans) and fought the warlords and rescued the girl. News spread and everyone calling on them to help against the warlords. Seriously man, go educate yourself before you spread lies about something you are clueless of.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

The Northern Alliance Were Just As Bad They Tortured And Killed Taliban Prisoners.

[MTAFFI]

The Truth Is There Needs To Be A Meeting Between The Afghan Goverment And The Taliban.

I see nothing wrong with that as long as everyone promises that know one will lose their "head"

i am sorry i just couldnt help myself

:giggling: ;D :D :sunny:

[NobleMuslimUK]

You seriously have no clue if you think northern alliance were better than the talibans. the NA murdered and raped as they pleased. The rise of Talebans was because of them. They had kidnapped a teen girl and were holding her hostage to rape, and the girl's family unable to find help anywhere went to a school teacher pleading for help. The teacher took his students (talebans) and fought the warlords and rescued the girl. News spread and everyone calling on them to help against the warlords. Seriously man, go educate yourself before you spread lies about something you are clueless of.

The Taliban was formed to end oppression and corruption in Afghanistan. The filthy kuffar labelled them as terrorists and barbarians, sadly thats what most muslims believe too now. What a shame.

[metalted]

ok, tell me this is the northern alliance worse then the taliban? its seems the afgan people are glad the taliban is gone.. i have never read an article by a Normal afgani who likes the taliban./ most articles i read are quite positive and optimistic.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

The Afghan Goverment And The Taliban Need To Talk And Maybe The War Will End I Cant See It Though.

[wilberhum]

The Taliban was formed to end oppression and corruption in Afghanistan. The filthy kuffar labelled them as terrorists and barbarians, sadly thats what most muslims believe too now. What a shame.

They are what they have proven themselvs to be. Kidnappers and killers. :phew

[NobleMuslimUK]

They are what they have proven themselvs to be. Kidnappers and killers. :phew

I dont think you have been to any part of the muslim world, you will see things work a lot different to how you understand.

[wilberhum]

I dont think you have been to any part of the muslim world, you will see things work a lot different to how you understand.

I will never understand killing for god.

[NobleMuslimUK]

I will never understand killing for god.

I dont think anyone is killing for God anymore, its about survival now. With a nation whos back you break 100 times over, if they still stand up and kill for the sake of God, well they are true warriors.

[wilberhum]

I dont think anyone is killing for God anymore, its about survival now. With a nation whos back you break 100 times over, if they still stand up and kill for the sake of God, well they are true warriors.

So one blows one's self for survival. :offended: Interesting concept. I would have never guessed.

[metalted]

Ok well we arent killing for God Noble. We are killing people who think they can speak for God. No man speaks for God, The nerve of any man who thinks he can speak for God.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Ok time out everybody.