News 4m Pakistan

[AmarFaisal]

:sl:

To the Mods: We need a thread where we can share n put the news from Pakistan. If u want us to create one for every news, then we shall. But I think it would be more convieneint to have just one.

To the Users on the forum: We shall try our best not to backbite or "discuss" matters in such ways. We shall use this thread solely to update news on Pakistan to others interested.

COming back to the news:

Razak Bughti , the governments speaker for Baluchistan has been shot dead in his car.

I heard this news on Geo and haven't found it covered on net yet. I shall put a source as soon as I find one.

[Muezzin]

Thread approved, but if fighting results those posts will be deleted and the thread might be locked.

So I agree, people should play nice.

[Keltoi]

Haven't heard much about Kashmir lately. Have India and Pakistan come to terms on this issue? Probably not.

[AmarFaisal]

Cops among 14 killed in Islamabad suicide blast
ISLAMABAD: A suicide bomber blew himself up among a group of policemen during clashes at the Lal Mosque here on Friday, killing at least 14 people and injuring over 60 people, most of the victims included the cops, the sources said.

http://www.geo.tv/geonews/details.asp?id=9393&param=1

I cannot beleive how much is happening in Pakistan today!!!!!

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[AmarFaisal]

Musharraf-Benazir meeting ends with deadlock over uniform issue

ABU DHAHBI: Meeting between President General Pervez Musharraf and former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto which held Friday ended with deadlock over uniform issue, the sources said.

http://www.geo.tv/geonews/details.asp?id=9396&param=1

[AmarFaisal]

Murder of Razzaq Bugti is target killing : CM Balochistan

QUETTA: Chief Minister of Balochistan, Jam Mohammad Yousuf, expressing sorrow on the brutal murder of Abdul Razzaq Bugti, termed it political target killing.

http://www.geo.tv/geonews/details.asp?id=9402&param=1

[AmarFaisal]

Haven't heard much about Kashmir lately. Have India and Pakistan come to terms on this issue? Probably not.

How can any1 be interested in Kashmir with all this happening internally in Pakistan. I think Musharraf has little time left with all this going on. Allah knows better.

[wilberhum]

How can any1 be interested in Kashmir with all this happening internally in Pakistan. I think Musharraf has little time left with all this going on. Allah knows better.

How can any1 be interested in Pakistan with all that is happening internally in Iraq? :confused:

[islamirama]

Eleven killed in Red Mosque blast

At least eleven people have been killed in a suspected suicide bombing near Pakistan's Red Mosque, following clashes between Islamists and police.

"Most of the dead were policemen," a security official said. More than 40 people were injured.

A protest grew on Friday as students demanded the return of the mosque's surviving pro-Taleban cleric, Abdul Aziz, who is in detention.

Security forces initially stood by as the protest began, but later dozens of police officers in full riot gear were deployed.

Armoured riot vehicles confronted the protesters, some of whom carried wooden staves or hurled rocks at police. Tear gas was fired in return.

Earlier protesters had prevented a government-appointed cleric from leading Friday prayers at what was supposed to be the peaceful re-opening of the mosque.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6918558.stm

[AmarFaisal]

How can any1 be interested in Pakistan with all that is happening internally in Iraq? :confused:

Pakistanis, who still have the love of their country alive in their hearts and r INTERESTED in knowing more abt Pakistan And possibly are thoughful abt ways we can bring peace back to our country , shall unite here , just like we do under one flag.

[wilberhum]

Pakistanis, who still have the love of their country alive in their hearts and r INTERESTED in knowing more abt Pakistan And possibly are thoughful abt ways we can bring peace back to our country , shall unite here , just like we do under one flag.

That is all good and fine.

But still your reply to Keltoi was rude and arrogant. :hiding:

[Keltoi]

only people rude and arrogant not mention ignorant here are you and your kind like keltio and congito boy. ketllepot was not even on the right topic much less share anything worth reading.

Kashmir has nothing to do with Pakistan? Interesting. I was under the assumption this was a general thread about Pakistan, not specific to Musharaff. From the responses to this thread so far, I probably wouldn't have gotten a worthwhile answer anyway.

[MTAFFI]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070727/...akistan_mosque

Bombing, mosque riot rock Islamabad By SADAQAT JAN, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 6 minutes ago


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - A suspected suicide bomber killed at least 13 people at a hotel Friday after hundreds of stone-throwing protesters clashed with police as the capital's Red Mosque reopened for the first time since a bloody army raid ousted pro-Taliban militants holed up there.

The blast, targeting police, was the latest in a string of militant revenge attacks and deepened the security crisis facing President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, a close U.S. ally.

The bombing comes on the back of almost daily suicide blasts in Pakistan's restive northwestern frontier, where Musharraf is also under U.S. pressure to crack down on al-Qaida. More than 300 people have died in violence which began with the siege of the Red Mosque at the start of July.

Interior Ministry spokesman Javed Iqbal Cheema said the government had received intelligence about a possible suicide bombing in the Aabpara market where the attack happened about 5:15 p.m. Friday. He said there would be an official inquiry into the security lapse, but he also blamed the mosque unrest for creating the conditions in which an attacker could strike.

"If these people had not created such a situation, it would not have happened," he said, adding the mosque was now indefinitely closed.

Authorities had hoped to restore normalcy to the once-staid Pakistani capital by reopening the Lal Masjid, or Red Mosque, to the public more than two weeks after the commando raid dislodged militant supporters of its pro-Taliban clerics.

But religious students, angered by the government's move to assign a cleric from another mosque to lead Friday prayers, staged protests inside the Red Mosque's compound and occupied it for several hours.

They daubed red paint onto the walls and dome to restore its namesake color after a government restoration left it pale yellow. They also put up a black flag with two crossed swords — meant to symbolize jihad, or holy war. Street battles then broke out between stone-throwing protesters and police using tear gas.

Soon after came a thunderous blast in an open-air restaurant at the Muzaffar Hotel, located in a crowded market district about a quarter-mile away from the mosque.

Cheema said it was a "pre-planned bombing" targeting police.

"It was a huge explosion," said witness Mohammed Ali. "There were policemen sitting and standing at the restaurant, and the explosion occurred after someone came near them," he said, his shirt stained from the blood of victims he helped carry to ambulances.

"A policeman got blown into the air and landed away from the blast site," said another witness, Imtiaz Ahmed.

Television footage showed rescuers rushing bodies from the scene, many bleeding and others partially stripped of their clothes and with skin blackened and raw from the blast.

Khalid Pervez, Islamabad's top administrator, said 13 people were killed, including seven police, and 71 were wounded, mostly bystanders.

Cheema said investigators had also recovered a head believed to be that of the attacker.

There was no claim of responsibility for the bombing, but Islamic militants were strongly suspected. It was the second major bombing to hit this city in 11 days. A July 17 suicide attack killed 16 people at a planned rally for the country's top judge.

Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz condemned the latest attack and said it would not deter the government's resolve to fight terrorism, the state Associated Press of Pakistan reported.

Islamabad had been gradually recovering from the mosque siege that left at least 102 dead, although security forces are still deployed at sandbagged bunkers on street corners.

Authorities had repaired the blast-scorched interior of the mosque, its damaged minarets and the bullet-riddled roof over its entrance hall.

But hopes that reopening the mosque would cool public anger over the siege — amid lingering skepticism over the official death toll — were dashed.

Bearded religious students and other hard-liners who gathered for prayers soon began chanting anti-government slogans and took control of the mosque compound.

"Musharraf is a dog! He is worse than a dog! He should resign!" students shouted.

They demanded the mosque's former chief cleric, Abdul Aziz, be allowed to lead the prayers. Aziz was caught trying to escape the mosque compound during the siege wearing a woman's burqa. He is currently in government detention.

The crowd also shouted support for Aziz's brother, Abdul Rashid Ghazi, who led the siege until he was shot dead by security forces after refusing to surrender. He had spearheaded a vigilante, Islamic anti-vice campaign that had challenged the government's writ in the city.

"Ghazi, your blood will lead to a revolution," the protesters chanted.

Maulana Ashfaq Ahmed, the senior cleric whom the government had asked to lead the prayers, was quickly escorted from the mosque, as protesters waved angry gestures at him.

In a speech at the main entrance of the mosque, Liaqat Baloch, deputy leader of a coalition of hard-line religious parties, the Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal, condemned Musharraf as a "killer."

"Maulana Abdul Aziz is still the prayer leader of the mosque. The blood of martyrs will bear fruit. This struggle will reach its destination of an Islamic revolution. Musharraf is a killer of the constitution. He's a killer of male and female students. The entire world will see him hang," Baloch said.

Unrest later broke out on the street outside, as protesters confronted scores of riot police backed by armored personnel carriers. Police were armed, but there was no gunfire or reports of serious injuries.

After the bombing, police retook control of the mosque, said Zafar Iqbal, the city police chief. Some protesters resisted and about 50 people were arrested, he said.

Wahajat Aziz, a government worker who was among the protesters at the Red Mosque, said officials were too hasty in reopening the mosque.

"They brought an imam that people had opposed in the past," he said. "This created tension in the environment. People's emotions have not cooled down yet."

What do people think of this? Do these people have the right to behave this way and attack their government and security forces? It seems this sort of thing keeps happening in these Arab or middle east countries, what is the problem and how do these people get the mindset that it is alright to create this sort of disruption and violence in society... What must be done to stop it?

[doorster]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070727/...akistan_mosque



What do people think of this? Do these people have the right to behave this way and attack their government and security forces? It seems this sort of thing keeps happening in these Arab or middle east countries, what is the problem and how do these people get the mindset that it is alright to create this sort of disruption and violence in society... What must be done to stop it?

Martial Law and curfews in affected areas with orders to shoot to kill rioters and inciters on sight.

Without making examples of few hundred we are going to lose tens of thousands.

Hindus are watching with eagerness to jump-in like they did in 71, so we have to look in all directions and go in hard and come out fast as we can not afford to get bogged down.

[snakelegs]

Martial Law and curfews in affected areas with orders to shoot to kill rioters and inciters on sight.

Without making examples of few hundred we are going to lose tens of thousands.

Hindus are watching with eagerness to jump-in like they did in 71, so we have to look in all directions and go in hard and come out fast as we can not afford to get bogged down.

i am afraid you may be right - on all counts. yet i think there are some that are hoping to force president musharraf to impose martial law.
obviously no country can allow this lawlessness so there may be no alternative.
were the people acting islamically when rather than pray behind the gov't appointed cleric, they chose not to pray at all?

[islamirama]

i am afraid you may be right - on all counts. yet i think there are some that are hoping to force president musharraf to impose martial law.
obviously no country can allow this lawlessness so there may be no alternative.
were the people acting islamically when rather than pray behind the gov't appointed cleric, they chose not to pray at all?

The people chose to pray, they just chose not to pray behind a gov't appointed cleric. The people want only a kin of one of the matyred in this massacre to lead the prayers . The whole nation is against the dictator and he is trying to oppress them more to control the situation. If you noticed, all the attacks have been against the police and army, a legtimate target in defense of the massacred and retaliation for the atrocities.

I find it funny how the kuffars here (not you) whined why the iraqi ppl didn't stand up to saddam and now they whine again when people of pakistan stand up to busharaaf and are fighting back, these same kuffars now cry that "law & order" must be followered. we have such two face hypocrites here.

[snakelegs]

The people chose to pray, they just chose not to pray behind a gov't appointed cleric. The people want only a kin of one of the matyred in this massacre to lead the prayers . The whole nation is against the dictator and he is trying to oppress them more to control the situation. If you noticed, all the attacks have been against the police and army, a legtimate target in defense of the massacred and retaliation for the atrocities.

I find it funny how the kuffars here (not you) whined why the iraqi ppl didn't stand up to saddam and now they whine again when people of pakistan stand up to busharaaf and are fighting back, these same kuffars now cry that "law & order" must be followered. we have such two face hypocrites here.

the thing is that these people are acting illegally and no government, can condone that.
also, there were protest demonstrations about the issue of lal masjid and they were very poorly attended which indicates that they do not even have popular support.
there are people who want shariah in pakistan (though i think it is far from being a majority) but there are not many who want to see it come about by using the methods these people have used.
pakistan has so many problems - why do they need this one?

[Keltoi]

The people chose to pray, they just chose not to pray behind a gov't appointed cleric. The people want only a kin of one of the matyred in this massacre to lead the prayers . The whole nation is against the dictator and he is trying to oppress them more to control the situation. If you noticed, all the attacks have been against the police and army, a legtimate target in defense of the massacred and retaliation for the atrocities.

I find it funny how the kuffars here (not you) whined why the iraqi ppl didn't stand up to saddam and now they whine again when people of pakistan stand up to busharaaf and are fighting back, these same kuffars now cry that "law & order" must be followered. we have such two face hypocrites here.

Musharaff and Saddam are two different leaders with two completely different track records. Yes, Musharaff is a military dictator, but he isn't known for using chemical weapons on his own people or propping up a police force notorious for rape, torture, and murder. These are different situations entirely. It doesn't matter what government is in power, that government will not allow anarchy or armed militias to challenge its authority, especially not religious extremists who have already stated they want Musharaff dead.

Perhaps if these poor people Musharaff is "persecuting" weren't also blowing up innocent people with suicide bombs there might be a little more sympathy for them.

[doorster]

If you noticed, all the attacks have been against the police and army, a legtimate target in defense of the massacred and retaliation for the atrocities.

It would be funny, were it not so sick, twisted and tragic!

in defense of the massacred

Murdering policemen and soldiers is "defense of the massacred"?

retaliation for the atrocities

Inciting revenge attacks against Muslims is halal?

God dang traitors and shills are running amok

[hidaayah]

Musharaff is a military dictator, but he isn't known for using chemical weapons

They used WP-white phosphorus in Lal masjid operation! and Aijaz ul Haq has confirmed that!
http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/2007/07...ation-silence/

[doorster]

They used WP-white phosphorus in Lal masjid operation! and Aijaz ul Haq has confirmed that!
http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/2007/07...ation-silence/

what do you throw at gun toting, missile throwing, suicidal terrorists and wannabe rambos? rose petals?

White Phosphorus (WP), is used for signaling, screening, and incendiary purposes. White Phosphorus can be used to destroy the enemy's equipment or to limit his vision. It is used against vehicles, petroleum, oils and lubricants (POL) and ammunition storage areas, and enemy observers. WP can be used as an aid in target location and navigation. It is usually dispersed by explosive munitions. It can be fired with fuze time to obtain an airburst. White phosphorus was used most often during World War II in military formulations for smoke screens, marker shells, incendiaries, hand grenades, smoke markers, colored flares, and tracer bullets.
"

[islamirama]

They used WP-white phosphorus in Lal masjid operation! and Aijaz ul Haq has confirmed that!
http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/2007/07...ation-silence/

With over a 1000 shaheed at the hands of this munafiq and his army and in between all his lies, the truth if slowly coming out. May Alalh give him what deserves.

What i find sickening is how some blind ignorant followers of his praise him and his army and call the shaheed, the innocent, terrorists. What was their crime? May Allah perish the killers that attack Allah's house and silence those who call to His dean.

what do you throw at gun toting, missile throwing, suicidal terrorists and wannabe rambos? rose petals?

Take a good look at this pictures of the massacre and tell me who the real terrorist is, your dam dictator or the innocent shaheed.

[Woodrow]

Personal insults will not be tolerated.

[AmarFaisal]

i think, as always, the secrets of this operation shall be known when musharraf leaves the government. :skeleton:

[Amadeus85]

I wanna ask, is it ok, according to islam, to impose sharia law in a muslim country by force?

[- Qatada -]

I wanna ask, is it ok, according to islam, to impose sharia law in a muslim country by force?

If the harm will be greater than the benefit [i.e. more people will be killed and harmed], and there will be more insecurity, then it is discouraged, if not forbidden. And Allaah knows best.

[Woodrow]

I wanna ask, is it ok, according to islam, to impose sharia law in a muslim country by force?

Good question Aaron. Perhaps this can best be answered by first asking a reverse question.

Is it ok according to impose Christian Law in a Christian country by force?

Now before you answer. "If a Christian country is a true Christian country, wouldn't all of the laws already be based upon Christian standards?"

So it would be within a truly Muslim Country. It would be an oxymoron to call it a Muslim country if the people have not already based their laws upon sharia. There is no need to impose sharia law by force in a truly Muslim country as the people have selected it by choice. The only time Sharia law would need to be imposed by force is after it is established and outside forces invade to change it.

[MTAFFI]

Recurring suicide bomb nightmare haunts Pakistan By Simon Cameron-Moore
Sat Jul 28, 4:35 AM ET



ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistani authorities warned more suicide bombers were stalking Islamabad, a day after 14 people were killed in a blast near a mosque regarded as a symbol of Islamist resistance to U.S. ally President Pervez Musharraf.

ADVERTISEMENT

"I feel very insecure for myself, for my children and for my city. I never thought my city would be like this," Fareha Ansar, a former high school principal, said on Saturday, after the second suicide attack in the capital this month.

A wave of suicide attacks, roadside bombs and shootings have killed more than 180 people, in a militant campaign triggered by the storming of the Red Mosque in Islamabad earlier this month to crush a Taliban-style movement.

The government reopened the mosque this week, but trouble broke out on Friday as hundreds of followers of radical clerics briefly seized the mosque before being dispersed by police.

A suicide bomber, described as a bearded man in his 20s, struck at a nearby restaurant shortly afterwards.

The only extra police evident on Saturday were stationed around the now "indefinitely closed" Red Mosque, or Lal Masjid.

Part of the problem for security forces is that they are the main target for attacks. Eight of Friday's victims were police.

Police foiled a car bomb plot on Friday in Bannu, a city at the gateway to North Waziristan, a tribal region regarded as a hotbed of support for the Taliban and al Qaeda.

Musharraf has to contend with more challenges than just the militant threat in Pakistani cities, and pressure from the United States to act against al Qaeda nests in North Waziristan, as he struggles to hold on to power.

SECRET RENDEZVOUS WITH BHUTTO?

A Supreme Court ruling last week to reinstate a chief justice who Musharraf had spent four months trying to oust augured ill for his plan to get re-elected by the sitting assemblies before their dissolution in November without running into serious constitutional challenges.

Having become increasingly isolated politically over the past few months, and virtually silent since the court decision went against him last week, Musharraf was in Abu Dhabi on Friday, reportedly for secret talks with former prime minister Benazir Bhutto about a deal to secure him a second term.

Officials denied the television reports on Friday, but newspapers on Saturday said the two held their first face-to-face talks since Musharraf came to power in a coup eight years ago, though his emissaries have been speaking to Bhutto for months.

Musharraf was in Saudi Arabia on Saturday, and expected back in Pakistan on Sunday.

Mutual distrust has surrounded contacts with Bhutto, and a deal remains fraught with problems, though both share a vision of turning Pakistan into a moderate, progressive nation.

Living in self-exile, Bhutto has seen her bargaining position strengthen as Musharraf's grip on power weakens.

General Musharraf wants to be re-elected by the sitting assemblies while still army chief. Bhutto says he should get re-elected after parliamentary elections due around the end of the year, and that he should stand as a civilian.

While Musharraf would be ready to give her Pakistan People's Party (PPP) a share of power, he would prefer the strong-willed Bhutto to stay on the sidelines, according to government sources.

U.S. and British officials have spoken of hope that political moderates can come together at the centre of Pakistan's fractured politics to form a bulwark against a rising Islamist tide.

(With additional reporting by Kamran Haider)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070728/wl_nm/pakistan_dc

[AmarFaisal]

currently my father, mother n brother r in ISB. May Allah protect them. Ameen

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Ameen sister..

[Amadeus85]

Good question Aaron. Perhaps this can best be answered by first asking a reverse question.

Is it ok according to impose Christian Law in a Christian country by force?

Now before you answer. "If a Christian country is a true Christian country, wouldn't all of the laws already be based upon Christian standards?"

So it would be within a truly Muslim Country. It would be an oxymoron to call it a Muslim country if the people have not already based their laws upon sharia. There is no need to impose sharia law by force in a truly Muslim country as the people have selected it by choice. The only time Sharia law would need to be imposed by force is after it is established and outside forces invade to change it.

Ok, so is it ok, according to islamic law, to impose sharia law by force in a country with muslim majority?

[islamirama]

Ok, so is it ok, according to islamic law, to impose sharia law by force in a country with muslim majority?

Islamic law contains guidelines and rules for all aspects of a Muslim's life, such as how to pray, the proper way to conduct a business transaction, how to bury the dead, as well as crimes and punishments. Traditionally, these laws were based largely upon the Qur'an and the sunnah, which is the practice of the Prophet. These clear principles were applied to new circumstances that later Muslims encountered.

Muslim's have no option but to rule by shar'iah law, otherwise they are going against the Quran and contradicting themselves as "Musilms". You don't force it but rather implement it. If the people reject it then there's something wrong with the public, the society has failed to raise proper islamically educated Muslims. If you study the Muslim history you will see when there was true islamic state and shar'ah, there was justice in the land. When you look at today's "democracy", "monarchy" , and dictatorship, you will see corruption all over the place.

You should read this, you will find it very interesting inshallah..
Perfection of The Shari'ah
http://www.islamworld.net/perfection...e_shariah.html

[Woodrow]

Ok, so is it ok, according to islamic law, to impose sharia law by force in a country with muslim majority?

Is that also how laws are imposed by a Democracy? Is it not true that in a democracy it is implemented by force through majority rule? That is majority of the nation, not the majority of any one section.

Even here in America if the majority of the people chose to legalize slavery, it would be legal. Although probably be very immoral. Slavery ended not because one group wanted it to end it ended because the majority of the people wanted it to end. The law did finally have to be imposed by force upon the southern States that chose to secede. although the civil war was fought over the rights to secced and not about slavery, it was still a forced imposition of a law through force by majority rule.

There is little difference between democracy and Sharia law. Both depend upon the desires of the majority. Under either system we abide by majority rule or we pay the price. Sharia law can only exist in a true Islamic State and in a true Islamic state it is the desire of the majority.

[doorster]

Ok, so is it ok, according to islamic law, to impose sharia law by force in a country with muslim majority?

No, it is not.

as Br. Qatada already told you, and you chose to ignore him a learned Brother and accept guesswork from woodrow. Is that because it suites trolling purposes

[Woodrow]

No, it is not.

as Br. Qatada already told you, and you chose to ignore him a learned Brother and accept guesswork from woodrow. Is that because it suites trolling purposes

Very true Br. Qatada is much more knowledgable about Islam than I am. In the event my views do differ from those of his, it would be the better choice to consider his views instead of mine. Hopefully I keep it clear that unless I post a specific reference, my views are based on my own opinion and I do not intend for them to be any scholastic teaching of Islam. I am very capable of making errors. Astagfirullah.

[Amadeus85]

I hope that you know why i asked those questions. It is related to this thread about latest Pakistan news and The Red Mosque. As fas as i know, students of this Mosque tried to impose sharia law in the nearby countryside.

[Noddy]

This Mosque issue has got out of hand in Pakistan, why not just close the mosque if there is proven facts that the mosque leaders and students support terrorist acts. These people are trying to use allahs home as a shield to commite torrorist acts which is a disgrace to islam.

I don't support the present government but they did ask all those people in the mosque to come or you'l die, yes force should have never been used but they had plenty of time to come out without no action taken but they refuesd. If i remember correctly the land which the mosque is built on isn't is owned by the government (correct me if im wrong).

What are you view...

[snakelegs]

i have a question about if president musharraf decides to run for prime minister office.
there is talk about him cutting a deal with benazir bhutto, in which the corruption charges against her would be dropped so she could return.
my question is, could the supreme court refuse to drop the charges - (going against the president)?
noddy - they have closed lal masjid for good last i heard. i really don't know why they even tried to re-open it!

[islamirama]

I hope that you know why i asked those questions. It is related to this thread about latest Pakistan news and The Red Mosque. As fas as i know, students of this Mosque tried to impose sharia law in the nearby countryside.

What they did and what you have read or told what they did are two different things. The disadvantage of sitting miles away with only outlet of information is the bias media controlled by those who abuse the law is that you don't get the whole picture.

The officials of masjid made any complaints and reports with local police there for the trouble being caused in their area. The police told them that their hands are tied and they are unable to do anything. They even named the politicians who were backing the trouble causers up if anything should happened to them. It was in fact the local police that told the masjid officials that you should do what you deem necessary to help your own situation.

The masjid had over 7000 female students and the same in male students. And you and the facuality and their families and friends that support them, you have enough to make a small town out of it. The masjid represented these people in the city (around the masjid) and not just the residents of the masjid. They called for the shut down of porno magazine shops, x-rated movies, and brothels that were leading to immorality, indeceny and everything that is against Islam. Not only that, by watching filth these troublemakers were more prone to harass innocent passerby's in the morning and fear of leaving the house at night. You should know well from your ghetto towns in US in what kind of a society you get the youth do drugs, watch pornography and abandon education which teaches morality, civility, and responsibility.

The Masjid also wanted to set up shar'ah based courts to deal with societal issues and they were not talking about taking over the world. There's even some non-muslim Countries out there that allow shari'ah based courts for their Muslim communities.

The whole deal with the masjid was simple. Masjid was used once to promote jihad against the soviets in afghanistan and so it still supported Afghanistan against another occupation (US). Bush didn't like that and was pressuring musharaaf to do something about and started complaining that their best ally isn't doing enough. Local Media, citizens, and many officials testified that all of this could've been resolved peacefully months ago, but musharaaf let it escalate on purpose and kept adding wood to the fire for 6 months and this "operation silence" was planned for 6months in advance.

All this is nothing but political games of musharaaf to please Bush and get some pressure off himself. Unfortunate for him that in doing so he upset the general public and also committed a massacre and now is in deeper trouble than he anticipated.

This Mosque issue has got out of hand in Pakistan, why not just close the mosque if there is proven facts that the mosque leaders and students support terrorist acts. These people are trying to use allahs home as a shield to commite torrorist acts which is a disgrace to islam.

I don't support the present government but they did ask all those people in the mosque to come or you'l die, yes force should have never been used but they had plenty of time to come out without no action taken but they refuesd. If i remember correctly the land which the mosque is built on isn't is owned by the government (correct me if im wrong).

What are you view...

My view is that you should all my posts in the "Pakistan" thread before you start talking again. Ignorance is one thing, blind ignorance when you have the ability to go seek the truth is another.

i have a question about if president musharraf decides to run for prime minister office.
there is talk about him cutting a deal with benazir bhutto, in which the corruption charges against her would be dropped so she could return.
my question is, could the supreme court refuse to drop the charges - (going against the president)?
noddy - they have closed lal masjid for good last i heard. i really don't know why they even tried to re-open it!

It would be most wise for the supreme court to not let that happend. Bhutto and nawaz shareef both are thieves and crooks. They robbed the country of all it's money and transfered it to their bank accounts in UK. Pakistan does not need crooks and military dictators as both are bad for the country and economy. All 3 have done nothing but make the country a lot worse than it was.

[doorster]

What they did and what you have read or told what they did are two different things. The disadvantage of sitting miles away with only outlet of information is the bias media controlled by those who abuse the law is that you don't get the whole picture.

The officials of masjid made any complaints and reports with local police there for the trouble being caused in their area. The police told them that their hands are tied and they are unable to do anything. They even named the politicians who were backing the trouble causers up if anything should happened to them. It was in fact the local police that told the masjid officials that you should do what you deem necessary to help your own situation.

The masjid had over 7000 female students and the same in male students. And you and the facuality and their families and friends that support them, you have enough to make a small town out of it. The masjid represented these people in the city (around the masjid) and not just the residents of the masjid. They called for the shut down of porno magazine shops, x-rated movies, and brothels that were leading to immorality, indeceny and everything that is against Islam. Not only that, by watching filth these troublemakers were more prone to harass innocent passerby's in the morning and fear of leaving the house at night. You should know well from your ghetto towns in US in what kind of a society you get the youth do drugs, watch pornography and abandon education which teaches morality, civility, and responsibility.

The Masjid also wanted to set up shar'ah based courts to deal with societal issues and they were not talking about taking over the world. There's even some non-muslim Countries out there that allow shari'ah based courts for their Muslim communities.

The whole deal with the masjid was simple. Masjid was used once to promote jihad against the soviets in afghanistan and so it still supported Afghanistan against another occupation (US). Bush didn't like that and was pressuring musharaaf to do something about and started complaining that their best ally isn't doing enough. Local Media, citizens, and many officials testified that all of this could've been resolved peacefully months ago, but musharaaf let it escalate on purpose and kept adding wood to the fire for 6 months and this "operation silence" was planned for 6months in advance.

All this is nothing but political games of musharaaf to please Bush and get some pressure off himself. Unfortunate for him that in doing so he upset the general public and also committed a massacre and now is in deeper trouble than he anticipated.

welcome to fantasy island!

My view is that you should (read) all my posts in the "Pakistan" thread before you start talking again. Ignorance is one thing, blind ignorance when you have the ability to go seek the truth is another.

I wonder If Moderater Woodrow would see any personal insults in this quote^^

Masjid also wanted to set up shar'ah based courts to deal with societal issues and they were not talking about taking over the world. There's even some non-muslim Countries out there that allow shari'ah based courts for their Muslim communities.

Masaajid can't impose punitive Sharia Laws, only Khulaifah/rulers can, after a system of education, social security.

Gen. Zia tried a pilot scheme for a period. when a bearded moolah type "Qadi" was attached to every court. they turned out to be biggest crooks and unjust thieves of all time.

As things stand today, there is hardly anyone in Pakistan who knows what Islam is, heck, in many places, 85 out of a 100 can't even read or write there own name, let alone be able to read and understand Quraan and are at mercy of persons like yourself

We need to teach them to be Muslims first before we start chopping their hands of for theft, we need to provide for widows and orphan girls before we accuse them of being prostitutes and kidnap them and take them to our "Mosque" to do to them, only Allah knows what!

[snakelegs]

It would be most wise for the supreme court to not let that happend. Bhutto and nawaz shareef both are thieves and crooks. They robbed the country of all it's money and transfered it to their bank accounts in UK. Pakistan does not need crooks and military dictators as both are bad for the country and economy. All 3 have done nothing but make the country a lot worse than it was.

i think you misunderstood my question.
would the supreme court be able to block president musharraf from dropping the charges? (which would prevent the return of either)

[snakelegs]

As things stand today, there is hardly anyone in Pakistan who knows what Islam is, heck, in many places, 85 out of a 100 can't even read or write there own name, let alone be able to read and understand Quraan and are at mercy of persons like yourself

We need to teach them to be Muslims first before we start chopping their hands of for theft, we need to provide for widows and orphan girls before we accuse them of being prostitutes and kidnap them and take them to our "Mosque" to do to them, only Allah knows what!

this is so true. (though i didn't realize literacy rate was quite that low).
education - both secular and islamic - is a very major and pressing issue.

[snakelegs]

mods - i ask you please not to close this thread just because some are insulting and doing personal attacks and accusations. if need be, i would hope that you would delete the objectionable posts instead.
thank you.
p.s. doorster, it has not been sanitized as i am writing this.

[islamirama]

Musharraf urged to quit army post

The former Pakistani PM, Benazir Bhutto, has said Pervez Musharraf must quit as head of Pakistan's military if he wants to continue as president. She spoke after the two were reported to have met in what was said to be a bid to strike a power-sharing deal.

Pakistani reports said Gen Musharraf and Ms Bhutto had met in Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates.

Gen Musharraf is facing increasing political opposition and rising violence from Islamist militants.

"I have very grave reservations about a uniformed president, and I believe it blurs the distinction between the civilian and military rule," Ms Bhutto told Britain's Sky television on Sunday.

Ms Bhutto has lived in exile since leaving Pakistan in 1999 after serving as prime minister for two terms in the 1980s and 1990s.

She has been trying to engineer a comeback, but the constitution would have to be changed to allow her a third term as prime minister.

Speculation is running high that he may strike a deal with Ms Bhutto for her support in exchange for allowing her return to Pakistan to run for prime minister. (A crook and a war criminal conspiring to stay in power and rob pakistan even more)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6921299.stm

[binAadam]

I was switching news channels and stopped at Al Jazeera, it was the program ‘Witness’ about Lal Masjid.

The host spent 5 days in the Lal Masjid or he went there 5 days before the operation launched. He was interviewing Maulana Ghazi Shaheed (rahimahullah), and looking at his beautiful face my heart was melting, that he’s no more with us and was killed in cold blood with hundreds of innocent girls and boys students.

Ghazi said he was not doing anything illegal, according to the state law brothels or massage centres are not allowed in Pakistan and that they took action because the government didn’t do anything against them even after complaints.
He said they just label you as Al-Qayeda or Taliban and after you have been called Taliban, you can be easily killed. He showed the tree in the courtyard of Lal Masjid where his father Maulana ‘Abdullah was martyred. He took the reporter to the top of the building and showed the surrounding area saying that was all uninhabitated in the past but later that was populated. There were brothers making ablution (wudhu) at a pond, everything was emotional to me, as all I was watching on tv screen doesn’t exist now. Brothers and hijabi sisters I saw there may not be alive today and I had tears in my eyes thinking about that.

The reporter was taken inside the Jami’ah Hafsah where men were not allowed, in a hall there were little girls reading Quran sitting on floors, in another room there were adult girls wearing hijab/niqab and pink scarves, a kind of uniform in that level of the class. In another class a hijabi/niqabi teacher was teaching elementary English to little girls. There was a tuck shop with biscuits and other stuff, a garments shop, a clinic with professional lady physicians, I think that wasn’t aleopathic but homeopathic or Greek or whatever. Girls were coming to a reception area where they were handing in a paper sheet to the receptionist, the walls were green-tiled and everything looked sad to me because it doesn’t anymore exist. Girls students wearing their modest hijab chanting slogans and holding sticks gave the sign of Jihad rightly or wrongly but what was painful that we can't see those purified sisters of us anymore.
Jami’ah Saiyidah Hafsah (radhiyAllahu ‘anha) has been leveled to the ground, there’s only debris in its premises with concrete material, human bones, flesh, belongings of the inmates and most probably hundreds of human bodies piled / buried in the basement of Jami’ah.

The Al Jazeera reporter was showed outside the Masjid in the street while there were clashes carried on between students and the security forces, the very first day, 3rd of July.

He was talking to a ‘Liberal Family’ in a house and they were ridiculing the escape of Maulana Abdul ‘Aziz in the burqa, the Al Jazeera reporter was telling the story of ongoing situation and porbaly it was 7th of July after the escape of Maulana Abdul Aziz, the Al Jazeera reporter called Ghazi Shaheed and Ghazi said there were 2000 students inside and children were only a few, wAllahu A’lam.

Situation was getting worse and in the end the reporter said, (in my words) ‘It’s 2’ clock in the afternoon, the operation started at 4 o’clock in the morning and it is said to have been heavy fighting inside the complex ….. and it’s reported that Ghazi has died.’

He was showing the badly damaged and ruined building of Jami’ah Hafsah which was opened for the media a few days after the operation was finished.
The reporter ended his report saying:

This is not the end; this is the beginning.

[binAadam]

WITNESS SPECIAL: Red Mosque

Producer: Farah Durrani

In the days leading up to the storming of the Red Mosque, Rageh Omaar gained exclusive access.

He and his team were the last TV crew inside the mosque before the siege began and filmed the last interview with Abdul Rashid Ghazi, one of the mosque's leaders, before his death.

With the prospects of violent conflict growing more ominous by the day, Rageh asked him about his meeting with Osama Bin Laden and his religious and political awakening after the assassination of his father.

In a candid interview, Rashid Ghazi states his belief that "wherever Muslims are awakening … much has to do with the aggression, the tyranny being committed by America and its allied forces".

Rashid Ghazi describes the increasing tension between the mosque and the Pakistani authorities and declares he will never surrender, even as the soldiers begin to gather in the streets around the mosque and hopes of a negotiated settlement dwindle.

The film also offers unique access to the Jamia Hafsa madrasa, the religious seminary for women attached to the Red Mosque.

Umme Hassan, the woman who ran the madrasa, explains the philosophy behind the seminary.

"We work for what God wants. The government hasn't fulfilled its duty and when it doesn't, according to the Prophet, the responsibility falls on the clerics."

Two days into the filming, clashes erupted at the mosque between students and security forces.

A week later, an estimated 100 people were dead.

Already, the storming of the mosque has led to violent attacks on government targets around Pakistan.

This Witness Special will broadcast at the following times GMT:

Saturday 28 July: (1900)
Sunday 29 July: (2400, 0500, 1100)

WITNESS SPECIAL: Red Mosque

[snakelegs]

It would be most wise for the supreme court to not let that happend. Bhutto and nawaz shareef both are thieves and crooks. They robbed the country of all it's money and transfered it to their bank accounts in UK. Pakistan does not need crooks and military dictators as both are bad for the country and economy. All 3 have done nothing but make the country a lot worse than it was.

yes, i think the majority of pakistanis want nothing to do with bhutto or shareef and they want an end to military rule.

[AmarFaisal]

WITNESS SPECIAL: Red Mosque

Producer: Farah Durrani

In the days leading up to the storming of the Red Mosque, Rageh Omaar gained exclusive access.

He and his team were the last TV crew inside the mosque before the siege began and filmed the last interview with Abdul Rashid Ghazi, one of the mosque's leaders, before his death.

With the prospects of violent conflict growing more ominous by the day, Rageh asked him about his meeting with Osama Bin Laden and his religious and political awakening after the assassination of his father.

In a candid interview, Rashid Ghazi states his belief that "wherever Muslims are awakening … much has to do with the aggression, the tyranny being committed by America and its allied forces".

Rashid Ghazi describes the increasing tension between the mosque and the Pakistani authorities and declares he will never surrender, even as the soldiers begin to gather in the streets around the mosque and hopes of a negotiated settlement dwindle.

The film also offers unique access to the Jamia Hafsa madrasa, the religious seminary for women attached to the Red Mosque.

Umme Hassan, the woman who ran the madrasa, explains the philosophy behind the seminary.

"We work for what God wants. The government hasn't fulfilled its duty and when it doesn't, according to the Prophet, the responsibility falls on the clerics."

Two days into the filming, clashes erupted at the mosque between students and security forces.

A week later, an estimated 100 people were dead.

Already, the storming of the mosque has led to violent attacks on government targets around Pakistan.

This Witness Special will broadcast at the following times GMT:

Saturday 28 July: (1900)
Sunday 29 July: (2400, 0500, 1100)

WITNESS SPECIAL: Red Mosque

very informative brother..but I hate to say I missed the proggramme. U posted abt 2 hrs back nit's already monday morning here. How could I ve watched it. I'l still check it out today.Mayb they'l show it again.

[AmarFaisal]

Wanted to post some news other than political

Karachi seashore to be cleared of dead fish by today: KPT

KARACHI: In reaction to the discovery of hundreds of dead fish in Karachi’s Keamari Harbour on Saturday night, Dr Saghir Ahmed, provincial minister for Environment and Alternative Energy, said that marine pollution was not the cause of their death.

He stated that these fish were thrown by fishermen from their trawlers. Nonetheless, he said that specimens have been sent for a laboratory test to ascertain the real cause of death.

Meanwhile, the officials of Karachi Port Trust (KPT) have said that the site would be cleared of the dead fish today (Monday).

Saghir Ahmed also promised to issue a complete report on the matter, which would be disclosed to the public after the completion of the official investigation. He directed his staff to remain in contact with the officials of Marine Department.

However, he said that the recent rainwater might have carried harmful chemicals to the sea resulting in the death of fish.

Corroborating such a point of view, Tahir Qureshi, Director, Coastal Ecosystem, the World Conservation Union (IUCN) based in Pakistan says that, “About 300 million gallons of untreated industrial and municipal waste is thrown into the Arabian Sea every day”.

The callousness of an indifferent bureaucracy, he said, has transformed Karachi Harbour into a septic pool.

The role of trawlers, if any, in relation to the discovery is still unclear.

According to sources, fishing trawlers, which are supposed to operate beyond 35-miles of the coastal belt, violate all sorts of laws unabashedly thanks to weak surveillance network and a corrupt bureaucracy, which tacitly allows the owners of these trawlers to go unpunished.

http://www.geo.tv/geonews/details.asp?id=9513&param=1

[binAadam]

very informative brother..but I hate to say I missed the proggramme. U posted abt 2 hrs back nit's already monday morning here. How could I ve watched it. I'l still check it out today.Mayb they'l show it again.

The video of the program is now available on this page, sis; you still can watch there inshaAllah.

[AmarFaisal]

yes brother I can see the you tube videos but can't I download them and view them?

[MTAFFI]

Looks like Pakistan is really trying to keep US forces outside their borders! Good for them, I am glad they decided to try and get a better handle on their situation with the tribal regions
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070807/...re_as/pakistan

Pakistan forces destroy militant hideout By BASHIRULLAH KHAN, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 38 minutes ago

MIRAN SHAH, Pakistan - Helicopter gunships and artillery on Tuesday bombarded two militant hideouts that had been used to launch attacks on security forces in a troubled tribal region near the Afghan border, the Pakistani army said.

Spokesman Maj. Gen. Waheed Arshad said forces targeted a pair of compounds in Daygan, a village about 10 miles west of North Waziristan's main town of Miran Shah after receiving "credible intelligence that militants were present there."

It appeared to be the army's toughest military action in the lawless border region after a month of escalating violence, and came a day after foreign ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said al-Qaida and the Taliban had no safe havens in the tribal zone.

Cobra helicopter gunships and artillery launched the attack early in the morning and it lasted about four hours, Arshad said. No ground forces were used in the assault, and there was no immediate word on militant casualties.

"The militants used to regroup and prepare attacks on security forces and take refuge at these compounds, so security forces targeted them," Arshad told Dawn television, calling the compounds a "staging post."

A local security official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to journalists, said the militants had retaliated and both sides had used light and heavy weapons.

Residents in Miran Shah could hear the artillery and said a stray mortar struck a home, wounding three civilians, including two children, who had been transported to a hospital in the town.

The security official confirmed that some weapons fire had hit a home in Daygan, and that three or four people had been injured.

The assault appeared to be the toughest military action since troops that were withdrawn from key checkpoints under a controversial peace deal with pro-Taliban militants in September 2006 were redeployed to North Waziristan about a month ago — prompting militants to pull out of the deal and resume attacks.

President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, a key ally of the United States in its war on terror, is under pressure from Washington to crack down on militants after U.S. intelligence agencies concluded that the peace deal had allowed al-Qaida to regroup.

Musharraf said Tuesday that recent suggestions from the U.S. that it might launch unilateral strikes against al-Qaida in Pakistan were "counterproductive" to the fight against terrorism, the government said.

Musharraf's comments were the highest-level rejection by Pakistan of comments by senior U.S. officials and presidential candidates about the possibility of U.S. strikes within the country, a possibility that Pakistan views as challenging its sovereignty.

President Bush said Monday that the U.S. and Pakistan, if armed with good intelligence, could track and kill al-Qaida leaders in Pakistan, but stopped short of saying whether he would ask the Pakistani president before dispatching U.S. troops there.

Violence has surged in Pakistan, particularly along its northwestern frontier with Afghanistan, since an army raid on Islamabad's pro-Taliban Red Mosque in early July. In all, more than 350 people have died in suicide bombings and clashes between militants and security forces.

Pakistan says it has 90,000 troops deployed near the border to combat militancy and attacks on Western and Afghan forces in Afghanistan.

Meanwhile, A bomb exploded at a bus station in the northwestern Pakistan city of Peshawar on Tuesday, but no one was hurt, police said.

The explosion ripped through Peshawar's main terminal near an empty bus, said Fazl-e-Maula Khan, a city police officer.

Khan said no one was hurt in the blast.

[MTAFFI]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070807/...re_as/pakistan

Musharraf rejects US strikes in Pakistan By ROHAN SULLIVAN, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 1 minute ago

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - President Gen. Pervez Musharraf said Tuesday that talk of U.S. military strikes against al-Qaida in Pakistan only hurts the fight against terrorism, and his troops bombarded militant hideouts in their strongest response yet to a month of anti-government attacks. Ten suspected militants were killed.

The assault by artillery and helicopter gunships "knocked out" two compounds in Daygan village in the tribal belt near the border with Afghanistan that were being used as staging posts for attacks on security forces, said Maj. Gen. Waheed Arshad, the army's top spokesman.

Ten militants were killed and at least seven were wounded in the operation, about 10 miles west of Miran Shah, the main town in the North Waziristan region, he said.

No ground troops were used in the operation, and the report on militant casualties was based on information from "local sources," he said without elaborating.

There were at least four smaller-scale bombings and shootings in the border region Tuesday, the latest in almost daily violence that has intensified pressure on Musharraf to crack down on militants in the area.

Musharraf, a key ally in Washington's war against terrorism, told visiting Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., that comments by senior U.S. officials and presidential hopefuls about the possibility of unilateral U.S. strikes within the country were not helpful. Musharraf met Durbin in the southern city of Karachi.

"He emphasized that only Pakistan's security forces, which were fully capable of dealing with any situation, would take counterterrorism action inside Pakistani territory," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

"The president pointed out that certain recent U.S. statements were counterproductive to the close cooperation and coordination between the two countries in combating the threat of terrorism," the ministry said.

President Bush said Monday that America and Pakistan, if armed with good intelligence, could track and kill al-Qaida leaders in Pakistan. He stopped short of saying whether he would ask Musharraf before dispatching U.S. troops to the country.

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., a presidential candidate, has said that he would use military force in Pakistan if necessary to root out terrorists, prompting angry responses from Pakistani officials.

Musharraf also described a new law tying U.S. aid to Pakistan to progress in combatting militants as an "irritant in the bilateral relationship," the statement said.

His comments came two days before he is due to hold talks with Afghan President Hamid Karzai about border security at a tribal council, or jirga, in Afghanistan.

Arshad said U.S.-made Cobra helicopter gunships and artillery attacked the compounds in North Waziristan about 5 a.m. after receiving intelligence that militants were there. Militants fired back with light and heavy weapons. The clash lasted about four hours, he said.

"The militants used to regroup and prepare attacks on security forces and take refuge at these compounds, so security forces targeted them," Arshad told Dawn television.

A local security official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of his job, said a stray mortar round had hit a home in Miran Shah, injuring three or four people.

The Daygan assault appeared to be the toughest military action since troops withdrawn from the tribal zone in September 2006 began to redeploy there in July, following the collapse of a controversial peace deal with pro-Taliban militants.

Since then, attacks on government forces have risen, and more than 360 people have been killed, including at least 102 in the army's raid last month of the radical Red Mosque in Islamabad. Militants have vowed to avenge those deaths.

Elsewhere along the border Tuesday, a soldier was killed in a drive-by attack on security forces by two men on a motorcycle in North West Frontier Province, according to police official Israr Khan. Another soldier was killed in North Waziristan by a bomb that exploded near him as he fetched water from a stream, a security official said.

In Bannu, a city near North Waziristan, a bomb exploded Tuesday evening close to a police station, injuring five civilians but no police, said Amir Maqbool Shah, a Bannu police officer.

[AmarFaisal]

I am sure many of us r pleased with the above news.

Below

25 villages in Chinniot submerged with River Chenab water from India

LAHORE: More than 25 villages in Chinniot submerged with the Chenab river water released from Indian side. Local administration has divided Chinniot tehsil in nine sectors to meet the emergency situation.

The administration has started announcements from loudspeakers of mosques for immediate evacuation of the population to safer places in view of expected flooding in the area.

The administration is taking safety measures to meet the flood threat after discharge of river water from India to Pakistan. The flood stream would pass through Chinniot at Wednesday midnight.

More than 25 villages in tehsil Chinniot submerged with sudden release of the Chenab river water from India. The villages included Yakke, Khizirke, Salok, Kharkan, Lolebale, Lal Da Burj, Kot Amir Shah, Bakhshke, Kot Khudaya and other villages near River Chenab

http://www.geo.tv/geonews/details.asp?id=9872&param=1

[AmarFaisal]

Bolan flooding cuts Quetta-Sibbi section land link

QUETTA: National Highway inundated as River Bolan flooded near Dadar area of district Bolan cutting the land link of Quetta-Sibbi section with rest of the country.

According officials of district Bolan, torrential rain in Bolan, which lasted for three hours last night, had increased the water pressure, which created flooding in River Bolan cutting down the land link of Balochistan from rest of the country.

The officials said that restoration of land route is difficult before receding of water. Wapda sources said that heavy rains damaged the 220-KV transmission line disrupted power supply to Quetta, Mastung, Pesheen, Ziarat. The power supply to Quetta and district Bolan was restored late in the night.

http://www.geo.tv/geonews/details.asp?id=9847&param=1

[AmarFaisal]

CIA orchestrated slaying of Chinese in Pakistan: Parliamentary Secretary

ISLAMABAD: CIA had orchestrated slaying of Chinese nationals in Pakistan, parliamentary secretary for defence Tuesday said in National Assembly session.

Taking part in foreign policy debate in the house, Parliamentary Secretary for Defence Syed Tanveer Hussain said a false love affair with the United States should be curtailed. He also called for better relations with Iran, Russia and China.

“The aid that forces us to treat our own people brutally should be spewed out,” he said.

He also called for raising slogan of Jihad to take revenge from America.

He said the United States and India have similar interests in Kashmir and a conspiracy being hatched to make the region autonomous.

He said the Kashmir issue wouldn’t be resolved on table adding that allowing free entry to Jihadis in Kashmir can resolve the issue within one month.

http://www.geo.tv/geonews/details.asp?id=9851&param=1

[wilberhum]

Seeing what a man with no evedance can say is interesting.

[Haidar_Abbas]

:sl: barakAllahu feeki ukhtee Amar,
keltoi: lollll we're still fighting for it dont worry itll be liberated by means of shariah and islam soon enough :) :sl:

[AmarFaisal]

Seeing what a man with no evedance can say is interesting.

A lot has been happening around the world without evidence.......

[wilberhum]

A lot has been happening around the world without evidence.......

That is true, always has been, allways will be.

[snakelegs]

there may be more bad news ahead.

Pakistan 'may declare emergency'

Violence has escalated in tribal regions of the country
Pakistan's government is considering imposing emergency rule, the country's information minister has said.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6937907.stm

[Keltoi]

there may be more bad news ahead.

Pakistan 'may declare emergency'

Violence has escalated in tribal regions of the country
Pakistan's government is considering imposing emergency rule, the country's information minister has said.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6937907.stm

I just saw a news report like two minutes before I read this in which the Pakistani government stated no state of emergency would be called for.

[snakelegs]

thanks for the update.

[Muezzin]

I just saw a news report like two minutes before I read this in which the Pakistani government stated no state of emergency would be called for.

Thank goodness.

Then again, the country's 'President' already has his hands in the judiciary anyway it seems.

And before anyone goes crazy, I'm of Pakistani descent. It's just sad that the country is always being messed around with by someone. That's life I suppose.

[AmarFaisal]

Karachi, other coastal areas of Sindh receive heavy rainfall

KARACHI: Karachi and coastal areas of Sindh received heavy rainfall with thunderstorm on Thursday under the influence of a strong monsoon weather system at the Arabian Sea.

The Meteorological Department has said a strong monsoon weather system persists over India’s Gujarat and Arabian Sea, under which coastal areas of Sindh including Karachi are receiving rainfall with thunderstorm.

The rainy spell in Karachi will be continued for next 24 hours, chief meteorologist at met department Naeem Shah said.

Karachi was receiving light drizzle in the morning, which later turned into heavy downpour. The rainfall caused traffic jams at several busy roads of the metropolis. Power outages have been reported in various parts of the city.

(I miss khi's rains so much:()

[Darkseid]

Thank goodness.

Then again, the country's 'President' already has his hands in the judiciary anyway it seems.

And before anyone goes crazy, I'm of Pakistani descent. It's just sad that the country is always being messed around with by someone. That's life I suppose.

Are you Balochi, Pashto (Afghan), Punjab, or a different ethnic group in Pakistan?

You can't really say Pakistani descent, since Pakistan was nothing more than a federation of muslim states from the British Raj of India.

[NoName55]

Americans should stop calling themselves American because it is no more than federation of ..... Britons are no Brits bacause .... Indians are not indian because it is .................................................. ....................

sheesh!!!

[chand]

Ive got a link of google about whether or not musharraf will call a state of emergency or not..i no youve already written that he wont but this is just another story from a different perspective.

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/...ory_id=9622350

[AmarFaisal]

Are you Balochi, Pashto (Afghan), Punjab, or a different ethnic group in Pakistan?

You can't really say Pakistani descent, since Pakistan was nothing more than a federation of muslim states from the British Raj of India.

I am sorry but it's an ugly question (very racist), and the thinking that is taking Pakistan to it's downfall.

Pakistan is much more than a federation of muslims state from british raj:raging:
Read the history of the region ....:peace:

[Darkseid]

Americans should stop calling themselves American because it is no more than federation of ..... Britons are no Brits bacause .... Indians are not indian because it is .................................................. ....................

sheesh!!!

Germans, not brits. More Americans are of German descent.

And actually we can say American, because most of us do have some Native American ancestory and we do have a different culture and dialect of english from that of the Brits.

I am sorry but it's an ugly question (very racist)

LMFAO! Racist you say? Honestly, where is racism being implied? I mean you are insisting that Pakistanis are an actual race of people rather than a divergent group of tribes and states that were formally apart of a British colony that was conquered and oppressed by the westerners for hundreds years.

and the thinking that is taking Pakistan to it's downfall.

Well don't you recall than Bangladesh was once a part of Pakistan (formally known as East Pakistan). Does that make Bangladesh still a part of Pakistan after being seperated or does that mean after being split form Pakistan you are no longer Pakistani.

I mean the Punjab people live in both India and Pakistan. THey consider themselves to be Punjabs rather than as Indians or Pakistanis.

And here is something else for you too.

http://www.balochmedia.net/

The administrator of this website is a sunni muslim of the Balochi region of Pakistan that highly advocates the independence of Balochistan from Pakistan and Iran. So honestly, what were you thinking of when you said that statement?

Pakistan is much more than a federation of muslims state from british raj:raging:
Read the history of the region ....:peace:

I have someone from that region that told me all about it which is much incite than just reading. However, I have read a great amount of the history of Balochistan and Pakistan.

Honestly, there is no true union of the people outside of religious boundaries. Balochis and Pashtuns are Iranic. In fact Pashtuns are called Afghans in Afghanistan, which makes it more clear to united those two regions together. The other two region of Pakistan are sindh and punjab, which are Indo-Aryan and therefore share more close ties to India than they do to the Iranic regions of Balochistan and Afghanistan/Pashtunistan.

In fact the only reason why the country is together rather than falling apart is in fact due to its militaristic government.

[snakelegs]

Ive got a link of google about whether or not musharraf will call a state of emergency or not..i no youve already written that he wont but this is just another story from a different perspective.

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/...ory_id=9622350

just realized - i had never seen a picture of him in pakistani clothes before!

[Talha777]

I hope that wretched fox Benazir doesn't win the elections, although apparently she is poised to become the next prime minister since she and her party are the only popular alternative to the PML which failed miserably. I never understood why the people of Pakistan, specifically Punjab and Sindh, are so afraid of Jamaat-e-Islami and the other religious parties. The religious parties believe in social justice which is badly needed, plus they are against the deadly globalization and immorality which is taking the country by storm. Even president musharraf once said women should wear shorts (Astaghfirullah), this is how immoral and unenlightened our present government is. However, Benazir, like her father, is a populist and always goes with the tide. She is trying to appease America by saying she will eradicate the Taliban and shut down the so called religious extremism. Her father in the late seventies, when Islam was popular among the masses and the former generation craved for Nizam-e-Mustapha, promised to make Pakistan an Islamic state, but unfortunately only instituted some token reforms in that regard. The Bhuttos and PPP are shrewd rats, most people know it deep down.

[snakelegs]

i don't know that much about the ins and outs of pakistani politics, but i am thinking that maybe it is time for a new party, new people....? (rather than recycling past leaders).

[Talha777]

i don't know that much about the ins and outs of pakistani politics, but i am thinking that maybe it is time for a new party, new people....? (rather than recycling past leaders).

The PML and PPP are like the republican and democratic parties of Pakistan respectively. It will be as likely for a new party to take over as the Green Party winning the elections in America.

As for recycling past leaders like Benazir, she is like a queen in the Peoples Party, and they can never imagine forming a government without her as long as she is alive.

[snakelegs]

The PML and PPP are like the republican and democratic parties of Pakistan respectively. It will be as likely for a new party to take over as the Green Party winning the elections in America.

As for recycling past leaders like Benazir, she is like a queen in the Peoples Party, and they can never imagine forming a government without her as long as she is alive.

oh, well - it was a nice idea.
so are pakistanis essentially given a choice that is no choice - like in the u.s.?
(there is little difference between democrats and republicans and they both serve the same interests).
i think the supreme court could block her return by refusing to allow president musharraf to drop the corruption charges?

[Talha777]

oh, well - it was a nice idea.
so are pakistanis essentially given a choice that is no choice - like in the u.s.?
(there is little difference between democrats and republicans and they both serve the same interests).
i think the supreme court could block her return by refusing to allow president musharraf to drop the corruption charges?

The Punjab, which is the dominant province of Pakistan with a population of 80 million, basically has to choose between the two powerhouses, peoples party or some faction of the muslim league. Other provinces occassionally establish governments with alternative parties, but they are usually nominal and form a coalition with one of the major parties. Only NWFP at the present time is dominated by the pro-taliban religious alliance MMA, but NWFP has a small population compared to Punjab.

The only obstacle that was in the way of benazir returning was the military government of Musharraf, but the Supreme Court is actually one of bhutto's allies, in particular the chief justice who launched a mass movement which ended quite recently to restore full democracy and remove musharraf.

[snakelegs]

oh - i thought it was the corruption charges that would prevent her return.
lately she is saying that she will only work with him if he takes off the uniform.

[Talha777]

oh - i thought it was the corruption charges that would prevent her return.
lately she is saying that she will only work with him if he takes off the uniform.

The Supreme Court will be only to glad to throw out the case against her, especially with the president's approval. Musharraf's days are numbered, he can at the most postpone the election for a year, after a new government is elected he will resign the presidency, or remove his uniform, either way his power will be immediately diminished.

[snakelegs]

i agree - it does look like either way, his days are numbered.
hoping for a better future for pakistan....

[snakelegs]

since independence day is coming up, i thought it might be appropriate to post the preamble to pakistan's constitution (1973)

in the name of Allah, the most
Beneficent, the most Merciful

*THE CONSTTITUTION OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF
PAKISTAN


Preamble

Whereas sovereignty over the entire universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone, and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust,

And whereas it is the will of the people of Pakistan to establish an order-

Wherein the State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people;

Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, as enunciated by Islam, shall be fully observed;

Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah;

Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities freely to profess and practise their religions and develop their cultures;

Wherein the territories now included in or in accession with Pakistan and such other territories as may hereafter be included in or accede to Pakistan shall form a Federation wherein the units will be autonomous with such boundaries and limitations on their powers and authority as may be prescribed;

Wherein shall be guaranteed fundamental rights, including equality of status, of opportunity and before law, social, economic and political justice, and freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship and association, subject to law and public morality;

Wherein adequate provision shall be made to safeguard the legitimate interests of minorities and backward and depressed classes;

Wherein the independence of the judiciary shall be fully secured;

Wherein the integrity of the territories of the Federation, its independence and all its rights, including its sovereign rights on land, sea and air, shall be safeguarded;

So that the people of Pakistan may prosper and attain their rightful and honoured place amongst the nations of the World and make their full contribution towards international peace and progress and happiness of humanity:

Now, therefore, we, the people of Pakistan,

Conscious of our responsibility before Almighty Allah and men;

Cognisant of the sacrifices made by the people in the cause of Pakistan;

Faithful to the declaration made by the Founder of Pakistan, Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, that Pakistan would be a democratic State based on Islamic Principles of social justice;

Dedicated to the preservation of democracy achieved by the unremitting struggle of the people against oppression and tyranny;

Inspired by the resolve to protect our national and political unity and solidarity by creating an egalitarian society through a new order;

Do hereby, through our representatives in the National Assembly, adopt, enact and give to ourselves, this Constitution.

source:
http://www.pakistanconstitution-law.com/preamble.asp

things always look so good on paper... (pakistan, of course, is not unique in this regard).

[NoName55]

Germans, not brits. More Americans are of German descent.

And actually we can say American, because most of us do have some Native American ancestory and we do have a different culture and dialect of english from that of the Brits.



LMFAO! Racist you say? Honestly, where is racism being implied? I mean you are insisting that Pakistanis are an actual race of people rather than a divergent group of tribes and states that were formally apart of a British colony that was conquered and oppressed by the westerners for hundreds years.



Well don't you recall than Bangladesh was once a part of Pakistan (formally known as East Pakistan). Does that make Bangladesh still a part of Pakistan after being seperated or does that mean after being split form Pakistan you are no longer Pakistani.

I mean the Punjab people live in both India and Pakistan. THey consider themselves to be Punjabs rather than as Indians or Pakistanis.

And here is something else for you too.

http://www.balochmedia.net/

The administrator of this website is a sunni muslim of the Balochi region of Pakistan that highly advocates the independence of Balochistan from Pakistan and Iran. So honestly, what were you thinking of when you said that statement?



I have someone from that region that told me all about it which is much incite than just reading. However, I have read a great amount of the history of Balochistan and Pakistan.

Honestly, there is no true union of the people outside of religious boundaries. Balochis and Pashtuns are Iranic. In fact Pashtuns are called Afghans in Afghanistan, which makes it more clear to united those two regions together. The other two region of Pakistan are sindh and punjab, which are Indo-Aryan and therefore share more close ties to India than they do to the Iranic regions of Balochistan and Afghanistan/Pashtunistan.

In fact the only reason why the country is together rather than falling apart is in fact due to its militaristic government.

If It were up to me I would make you take you deviding tactics and obscene filth some place else!

I only wish we still had kadafi, fisabilillah almadani here!

we are trying to get away from concept of racism and tribes are used only for localised ID purposes and healthy competition in armed forces (to see which brings more pride or disgrace upon the ummah) not for fighting amongst ourselves, which you will have us do.

[Muezzin]

Are you Balochi, Pashto (Afghan), Punjab, or a different ethnic group in Pakistan?

Punjab

You can't really say Pakistani descent, since Pakistan was nothing more than a federation of muslim states from the British Raj of India.

:rollseyes Okay. Technicalities...

[snakelegs]

If It were up to me I would make you take you deviding tactics and obscene filth some place else!

I only wish we still had kadafi, fisabilillah almadani here!

we are trying to get away from concept of racism and tribes are used only for localised ID purposes and healthy competition in armed forces (to see which brings more pride or disgrace upon the ummah) not for fighting amongst ourselves, which you will have us do.

here are the keys to the Secret Kingdom:
fi_sabililllah is now qatada
al madani is now >-< tho it doesn't quite look like that when he types it.
sneaky little bunch, aren't they? :D

[NoName55]

here are the keys to the Secret Kingdom:
fi_sabililllah is now qatada
al madani is now >-< tho it doesn't quite look like that when he types it.
sneaky little bunch, aren't they? :D

be that as it may but al_Madani vanished more than a month ago and I have not seen qatada for over a week and others dont bother postin any replies now (kadafi, ansar)

[snakelegs]

be that as it may but al_Madani vanished more than a month ago and I have not seen qatada for over a week and others dont bother postin any replies now (kadafi, ansar)

come to think of it - you're right. it's been a while since i've seen any posts by either of them.
kadafi and ansar have been pretty quiet for months.
maybe they took the LI family jewels and ran!

[Tania]

Tomorrow is 14th august. The people will have a day off to celebrate :? :)

[snakelegs]

i have a question for pakistanis. how free is the urdu press in pakistan? i can't read urdu well enough yet to tell anything.
the english language press is obviously very free - this is why i am wondering. i can't imagine that the urdu press would have anywhere near that much freedom.
another question:
what do you make of the supreme court's ruling that freed javed hashmi - what does it mean, etc.
tania,
the answer to your question is yes. but the Official Forum Viewpoint is that it is forbidden to celebrate it, so it is best not to mention it. :giggling:

[Tania]

tania,
the answer to your question is yes. but the Official Forum Viewpoint is that it is forbidden to celebrate it, so it is best not to mention it. :giggling:

Ohh, thats was the easiest question to ask in such a political thread :-[

[Hashim_507]

The reason to invade afghanistan was not to get so-called bin laden man but to destroy pakistan government and get rid of the nuclear establishment. Look at pakistan situation now; it was the perfect setup.

[AmarFaisal]

i have a question for pakistanis. how free is the urdu press in pakistan? i can't read urdu well enough yet to tell anything.
the english language press is obviously very free - this is why i am wondering. i can't imagine that the urdu press would have anywhere near that much freedom.
another question:
what do you make of the supreme court's ruling that freed javed hashmi - what does it mean, etc.
tania,
the answer to your question is yes. but the Official Forum Viewpoint is that it is forbidden to celebrate it, so it is best not to mention it. :giggling:

In my view the Urdu press in as free as the english press in Pakistan.
Infact, some afternoon and evening newspapers r the best to get the real news. While other noon newspapers give so much gossip, u can hardly figure out what the truth is:D

Jang being the most circulated urdu newspaper in Pakistan, is not bad. And it is considered to be the pioneer in Urdu and Pakistan Journalism.

Tania
Tomorrow is 14th august. The people will have a day off to celebrate

Independence day brings back sweet memories of the 3 years I spend in school in Pakistan, Karachi. We used to prepare for days to sing national anthems n songs in the assembly. Specially prepare clothes for this day, in green and white. Out street boys would collect charity and decorate the whole street with lights. And we would cut the cake calling all people in the street to this celebration (the street had around 30-40 houses). There would be a competition on which streets were the best. We would decorate our car with flags n go out in a procession shouting " Jivey Jivey Pakistan" or " Dil Dil Pakistan". My brother who was just 8yrs then, put up a stall for Badges of Pakistan and sell them in the street.

We would also decorate our gallery, balcony with flags. Our father would wake us up early in the morning to watch the shows of the Independence day on the TV.

but the Official Forum Viewpoint is that it is forbidden to celebrate it, so it is best not to mention it.

All that I mentioned above is not to put forward the idea of celebration. But lets say, I just mentioned how an average Pakistan child views his independence day.:peace:

what do you make of the supreme court's ruling that freed javed hashmi - what does it mean, etc.

:uhwhat

[snakelegs]

In my view the Urdu press in as free as the english press in Pakistan.
Infact, some afternoon and evening newspapers r the best to get the real news. While other noon newspapers give so much gossip, u can hardly figure out what the truth is:D

Jang being the most circulated urdu newspaper in Pakistan, is not bad. And it is considered to be the pioneer in Urdu and Pakistan Journalism.

that's good to know!

Independence day brings back sweet memories of the 3 years I spend in school in Pakistan, Karachi. We used to prepare for days to sing national anthems n songs in the assembly. Specially prepare clothes for this day, in green and white. Out street boys would collect charity and decorate the whole street with lights. And we would cut the cake calling all people in the street to this celebration (the street had around 30-40 houses). There would be a competition on which streets were the best. We would decorate our car with flags n go out in a procession shouting " Jivey Jivey Pakistan" or " Dil Dil Pakistan". My brother who was just 8yrs then, put up a stall for Badges of Pakistan and sell them in the street.

We would also decorate our gallery, balcony with flags. Our father would wake us up early in the morning to watch the shows of the Independence day on the TV.



All that I mentioned above is not to put forward the idea of celebration. But lets say, I just mentioned how an average Pakistan child views his independence day.:peace:

while celebration of things like indepence day is an issue, i have confirmed - thanks to the link muhammad gave on the other thread that got closed - what i thought but wasn't sure of:

"But the natural love that a person feels for the place where he grew up is something that is not regarded as blameworthy by sharee’ah, so long as that does not distract you from acts of worship and obedience which are more important."

so this is basically common sense.
there is no question that nationalism is not simply love of your country, etc - but can be a very negative force. (like nazis, or even hyperpatriotic flag waving americans, for that matter - a matter of degree).

btw, the link was:
http://www.islamicboard.com/803688-post29.html



:uhwhat

for background on release of javed hashmi:
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2007-w...2007/dia.htm#4

there is so much happening in pakistan it is probably even difficult for a pakistani in pakistan to evaluate what it all means - let alone a non-pakistani on the other side of the world).
as pakistan turns 60, i can join you in wishing for a better future for your country and its people.

[snakelegs]

am wondering what pakistanis here think about the coming elections. are any of the main runners worthy of support?

Bhutto: Musharraf to quit Pakistan army
By Isambard Wilkinson in Islamabad
Last Updated: 6:12am BST 29/08/2007

President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan has agreed to resign as army chief in a power-sharing deal with Benazir Bhutto, the exiled former prime minister claimed yesterday.

He had previously insisted that he would remain army chief while standing for re-election as president. But a deepening political crisis appears to have forced the general, a key ally in the US-led war on -terror, to compromise.

After months of secretive political horse-trading Ms Bhutto, who has consistently claimed that she would not strike a deal with Gen Musharraf unless he stepped down as army chief, told The Daily Telegraph yesterday that the "uniform issue is resolved".

for the rest of the story:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...29/wpak129.xml

[ahsan28]

[QUOTE=snakelegs;there is so much happening in pakistan it is probably even difficult for a pakistani in pakistan to evaluate what it all means - let alone a non-pakistani on the other side of the world).[/QUOTE]

Less knowledge is a blessing :D

[Tania]

But who is running for election : Musharraf and Bhutto :? only them :-[

[snakelegs]

so, nobody is terribly enthused about any of the likely candidates?
another piece of news is that the supreme court is demanding an investigation into the whole lal masjid thingie.
also:
KABUL: The US-led coalition in Afghanistan has admitted it did not have permission from Pakistan to strike Taliban positions across the border at the weekend, citing a “miscommunication” problem.

The coalition had insisted it was given the go-ahead for the attack inside Pakistan on Saturday that destroyed six Taliban firing posts on both sides of the frontier, killing more than a dozen rebels.

The coalition said in a statement late on Monday it had investigated further and found that Pakistan had not actually given permission. “We regret the miscommunication in this event,” said the coalition’s deputy commanding general for operations, Brigadier General Joseph Votel.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=9832

tania,
nawaz sharif will probably come back. he's the one that general musharraf overthrew in '99. both bhutto and sharif had been accused of corruption.
i think they and president musharraf will be the main choices and i don't know if anybody is terribly excited about any of them. but some will be (relatively) happy if the general takes off the uniform, i think.

[Tania]

nawaz sharif will probably come back. he's the one that general musharraf overthrew in '99. both bhutto and sharif had been accused of corruption.
i think they and president musharraf will be the main choices and i don't know if anybody is terribly excited about any of them. but some will be (relatively) happy if the general takes off the uniform, i think.

If they had been accused of corruption why the political parties don't send another candidates for election :? We had around 8 people running for the president elections in 2004 representing the main political parties. :)

How many political parties are in Pakistan :? 3 its a too small number for such a big country :-[

[ahsan28]

How many political parties are in Pakistan :? 3 its a too small number for such a big country :-[

Count again, please.

[Tania]

Count again, please.

1. Pervez Musharraf
2. Benazir Bhutto
3. Nawaz Sharif

Its not good :? :-[

[snakelegs]

nawaz sharif has announced that he will return on sept. 10.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/default.stm
question: couldn't both bhutto and sharif be arrested on the outstanding corruption charges when they come back?
tania,
there are about 4 or 5 major parties and lots of little bitty ones.
if i'm wrong, somebody please correct me.

[Tania]

nawaz sharif has announced that he will return on sept. 10.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/default.stm
question: couldn't both bhutto and sharif be arrested on the outstanding corruption charges when they come back?

But if they are arrested it means Pervez will remain alone in election. :-[ That can't happen. It must be at least 2.
Our political parties are much better because each sent a man in election, so we had at least 8 candidates :)

[snakelegs]

did pakistan get lost? it was around here somewhere.......

[Woodrow]

did pakistan get lost? it was around here somewhere.......

It had gotten hidden under 20+ off topic posts. We will now return to the topic of Pakistan

[justahumane]

1. Pervez Musharraf
2. Benazir Bhutto
3. Nawaz Sharif

Its not good :? :-[

Its not that bad either. And Pervez Musharraf is seeking yet another term as president while others like Sharif and Benazir are trying to get their lost post of PM.

But where are rightists like Maulana Fazal ur Rehman and Qazi saahib? I hope this time they will do better. Thanks to Lal Masjid episode.

[chacha_jalebi]

apparently a brigde collapsed today in pakistan and the things thats ironic it was called "naya pul" i.e - new bridge pssshhh :p woteva

pakistan is propa corrupt man, they will even like be corrupt in making a bridge and use rubbish materials

[NoName55]

Pakistan bridge collapse kills four


Published: Sept 1, 2007 at 9:09 AM

KARACHI, Pakistan, Sept 1 (UPI) -- A bridge collapse in Karachi,
Pakistan, killed at least four people Saturday and left several
others wounded.

Witnesses said between 20 and 25 people were still trapped under
debris from the Northern Bypass bridge, Pakistan's GEO TV News
reported. The witnesses said more than 10 of the trapped may be
critically injured.

A portion of the bridge collapsed around noon Saturday, trapping
vehicles -- reportedly including a bus with several passengers -- under
the debris.

Ambulance crews, relief teams and two cranes were digging through
the wreckage in search of survivors.

Three people were taken to Civil Hospital Karachi and two others were
taken to Abbasi Shaheed Hospital.

© Copyright United Press International

[NoName55]

Six die in Pakistan bridge collapse

An investigation into the collapse
has been ordered [AFP]



A recently constructed road bridge has collapsed in the southern Pakistan
city of Karachi, killing at least six people and injuring others.

Rescuers were trying to clear the wreckage to retrieve those trapped and
injured amid fears the death toll from Saturday's accident could rise.


At least two cars and a police van were crushed under the debris, and a
truck with a trailer and a minibus lay upturned by the fallen bridge.

The bridge was opened only two months ago by Pervez Musharraf, the
Pakistani president.


Mustafa Kamal, the mayor of Karachi, said the authorities were using heavy
machinery and bulldozers to remove debris and pull out injured people
trapped in at least two or three vehicles.

The cause of the accident was not immediately clear.

Probe ordered

Witnesses said a portion of the bridge known as Northern Bypass fell with
a huge bang while traffic was on it.


Mohammed Iqbal, a survivor who escaped through the window of a small
bus that fell from the bridge, told the Pakistani Geo news channel he had
heard cries for help from those trapped in the rubble.

Zahid Khan, a witness, said "It created such a huge sound that we thought
it was an earthquake."

Shaukat Aziz, the Pakistani prime minister, expressed sorrow over the loss
of life and concern over the quality of construction of the bridge.

"Investigations have been ordered to find the reasons of the collapse and
people responsible for substandard construction would be taken to task," Aziz said.

Later reports said bystanders and relatives of those trapped under the
rubble, angered at what they believed were slow rescue efforts, threw
stones at the security forces deployed at the scene, injuring two.

In response, the security forces baton-charged the crowd.

[Tania]

Mohammed Iqbal, a survivor who escaped through the window of a small
bus that fell from the bridge, told the Pakistani Geo news channel he had
heard cries for help from those trapped in the rubble.

The people will be affraid to use the bridges if they are so bad. :-\ If they are not able to ask the experts better don't do them !

[ahsan28]

Bombings kill at least 24 in Pakistan

Two powerful explosions jolted this garrison city of Rawalpindi near the capital early Tuesday, killing at least 24 people and wounding 66, military officials said.

The coordinated blasts, which appeared to be suicide attacks, took place within a mile of each other in the heart of Rawalpindi.

4 sep 2007

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/...s/pakistan.php

[Woodrow]

One more off topic post will not make me very happy.

[wilberhum]

Pakistan 'prostitutes' beheaded
Suspected Islamic militants in north-western Pakistan have beheaded two women they accused of being prostitutes, police say.
The bodies of the two women were found by villagers on the outskirts of the city of Bannu.

A note found on the bodies accused the women of "acts of obscenity", a term that usually refers to prostitution.

The region is a known base for militants who want to impose their interpretation of Islamic law.

Police said the women were travelling in a three-wheeled vehicle when masked and armed men overpowered them and bundled them into a car.

(More)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6983692.stm

[MTAFFI]

Pakistan 'prostitutes' beheaded
Suspected Islamic militants in north-western Pakistan have beheaded two women they accused of being prostitutes, police say.
The bodies of the two women were found by villagers on the outskirts of the city of Bannu.

A note found on the bodies accused the women of "acts of obscenity", a term that usually refers to prostitution.

The region is a known base for militants who want to impose their interpretation of Islamic law.

Police said the women were travelling in a three-wheeled vehicle when masked and armed men overpowered them and bundled them into a car.

(More)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6983692.stm

wow
:skeleton:

[Amadeus85]

I also heard about it. Quite shocking for me.

[snakelegs]

from what i've been told, the tribal areas are pretty much ungovernable.
the talibaan pretty much has free reign there and their power is growing. also, it is not limited to the FATA.
(don't know if this was talibaan or not, but it will do for a guess).

[Tania]

Pakistan 'prostitutes' beheaded
Suspected Islamic militants in north-western Pakistan have beheaded two women they accused of being prostitutes, police say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6983692.stm

The police should arrest immediately this militants and throw them in jail until they will be judge. No one has the right to make his justice except in court.

Why anyone didn't try to save them :?

Also the men hypocrisy its ...cenzured...After they take the pleasure from prostitutes job , they are killing them. And what a dirty job.:uuh:
Note: because it was not proven the 2 women are guilty of prostitution, i don't consider them guilty either. :embarrass

[Tania]

from what i've been told, the tribal areas are pretty much ungovernable.
the talibaan pretty much has free reign there and their power is growing. also, it is not limited to the FATA.
(don't know if this was talibaan or not, but it will do for a guess).

I can't understand this country. Lets say i have 2 relatives with a big house and by chance i like their house. I kill them both, throw them in the street and i write a note: 2 prostitutes. I take the house and the police is doing nothing because i am the big militant...for my welfare.

[snakelegs]

tania,
you do understand! i don't know about this case, but this type of thing does happen.

[snakelegs]

Print Preview
Explosions in northern Pakistan destroys 40 music shops
MIL-PAKISTAN-SAWAT-BLASTS
Explosions in northern Pakistan destroys 40 music shops

ISLAMABAD, Sept 7 (KUNA) -- About 40 shops were destroyed in explosions in Pakistan's northern but, there was no lives were losy, said police.

Suspected local Taliban militants had planted time-bombs in various shops in two markets of Sawat valley, police sources told KUNA. They said bombs exploded with huge bangs early Friday.

About 40 music and vide shops were destroyed, sources said. They said the explosions took place a week after militants warned shopkeepers to stop their business of music and video CDs.

http://www.kuna.net.kw/home/Story.as...n&DSNO=1017921

[Tania]

About 40 music and vide shops were destroyed, sources said. They said the explosions took place a week after militants warned shopkeepers to stop their business of music and video CDs.

http://www.kuna.net.kw/home/Story.as...n&DSNO=1017921

:ooh: another one :ooh: when they shout to stop the business did they give another source for their income :? ( because its natural a family can't live only with air )

The shopkeepers forced the people to buy cd's :? Did they run on the streets shouting :" you will buy it or i kill you" :? If they didn't do that i really think they are not guilty for selling them.

Why this so called militant are not working to educate the people :? instead to ruin lifes. Its much easy to put a bomb instead to go and teach the people music its "haram".

I hope they will pay the damages, right :? the building need to be fixed after a bomb, not to mention the price of cd's :(

This type of event reminds me of a black movement from the world war 2 when certain shops in the night were destroyed - but only the content of the shop, the building was not damaged.

[ahsan28]

Hi snakelegs, what can be the possible reason of these tragic happenings in Pakistan?

Do we have history of such happenings in the past?

[snakelegs]

Hi snakelegs, what can be the possible reason of these tragic happenings in Pakistan?

Do we have history of such happenings in the past?

there is no shortage of people who want to destroy pakistan.
no, there was no history of beheadings before recently that i know of. it has only been recent that the talibaan have gone in for beheadings. until lately, it was a totally foreign practice, as far as i know.
as for music store closings and such - yes, there is history of such things - this is not new. do you support bombing music stores?
do you think a provision will be made to feed the music store owners' families?
let me ask you - what can pakistan do to bring about a better future for its people? hopefully there will be elections soon - who would you support? neither bhutto or sharif look good to me.
pakistan is in a terrible position with enemies within and without. i really don't know what it can do.

[ahsan28]

no, there was no history of beheadings before recently that i know of. it has only been recent that the talibaan have gone in for beheadings. .

Speaking honestly, Pakistan is paying the price for the coalition failures in Afghanistan. They have not been able to defeat Talibans. The inept karzai govt has been a complete failure in all dimensions. Pakistan has been offering them viable suggestions but those were not accorded attention. Even the incompetent Karzai Govt openly opposed sealing of the borders :D we all know why?

They wanted to shift the war to Pakistan, thats why they opposed sealing the borders and US and the other partners kept quiet and didn't exert pressure on Afghan govt, which has resulted in mass border crossings and the influx of Aghanis due to their obvious ethnic affiliations have managed to seek refuge in the tribal areas. These all activities are being carried out by the foreigners hailing from diff countries.

That was to happen mainly due to the failures faced by the invaders in Afghanistan and the incompetence on the part of present Afghan govt.

[snakelegs]

ahsan,
i think you have a point re: afghanistan. i think they are hoping to erase the durand line. it is complicated further by the fact that the border divides the pashtuns. further complicated by the fact that the pashtuns feel neglected by the central gov't. do you think it's even possible to seal the border? (i don't)
in the tribal areas there are all sorts of foreigners running amok. uzbeks, arabs, and who knows? and more and more in to frontier province. the music shops where not in the tribal areas but in swat valley.
so pakistan has an enemy on either side and the u.s. besides (which sure doesn't help matters), as well as who knows how many internal enemies. what can pakistan do?

[ahsan28]

ahsan,
so pakistan has an enemy on either side and the u.s. besides (which sure doesn't help matters), as well as who knows how many internal enemies. what can pakistan do?

Pakistan has never experienced such situation, which it is experiencing now. The continued episode of retaliations and unrest won't be over unless we reach some solution in Afghanistan and that is possible only if the coalition is ready to leave and hand over the rule to the people of Afghanistan. Short of that, I don't see any visible solution n improvement in foreseeable future.

[snakelegs]

Pakistan has never experienced such situation, which it is experiencing now. The continued episode of retaliations and unrest won't be over unless we reach some solution in Afghanistan and that is possible only if the coalition is ready to leave and hand over the rule to the people of Afghanistan. Short of that, I don't see any visible solution n improvement in foreseeable future.

you may well be right, but i hope not. i think there are still people who have not given up.
it's so sad to think about what the people could do if they only had a chance.:cry:

[Tania]

. as for music store closings and such - yes, there is history of such things - this is not new. do you support bombing music stores?
do you think a provision will be made to feed the music store owners' families?

The bombs are not a solution. You can bomb them all but the people will buy them from the net. And what they reach with that :?
They should explain to pleople why its important not to listen music. The money waste on bombs should be given to tv channels in some kind of small announcement.

[Amadeus85]

Poll: Bin Laden tops Musharraf in Pakistan

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf -- a key U.S. ally -- is less popular in his own country than al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, according to a poll of Pakistanis conducted last month by an anti-terrorism organization.




Additionally, nearly three-fourths of poll respondents said they oppose U.S. military action against al Qaeda and the Taliban inside Pakistan, according to results from the poll conducted by the independent polling organization Terror Free Tomorrow.

"We have conducted 23 polls all over the Muslim world, and this is the most disturbing one we have conducted," said Ken Ballen, the group's head. "Pakistan is the one Muslim nation that has nuclear weapons, and the people who want to use them against us -- like the Taliban and al Qaeda -- are more popular there than our allies like Musharraf."

The poll was conducted for Terror Free Tomorrow by D3 Systems of Vienna, Virginia., and the Pakistan Institute for Public Opinion. Interviews were conducted August 18-29, face-to-face with 1,044 Pakistanis across 105 urban and rural sampling points in all four provinces across the nation. Households were randomly selected.

According to poll results, bin Laden has a 46 percent approval rating. Musharraf's support is 38 percent. U.S. President George W. Bush's approval: 9 percent.

Asked their opinion on the real purpose of the U.S.-led war on terror, 66 percent of poll respondents said they believe the United States is acting against Islam or has anti-Muslim motivation. Others refused to answer the question or said they did not know.

"We failed in winning hearts and minds in Pakistan," Ballen told CNN. "In fact, only 4 percent said we had a good motivation in the war on terrorism."

Seventy-four percent said they oppose U.S. military action against al Qaeda and the Taliban inside Pakistan.

After American relief efforts following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan's Kashmir region, 46 percent of Pakistanis had a positive opinion of the United States, according to the poll. But as of last month, only 19 percent reported a favorable opinion.

Meanwhile, al Qaeda has a 43 percent approval rate; the Taliban has a 38 percent approval rate; and local radical extremist groups had an approval rating between 37 percent to 49 percent.

Views of U.S. could improve, responses indicate

There were a few bright spots in the poll results, however. Opposition leader Benazir Bhutto -- a relatively moderate and progressive figure, as well as a woman -- had a 63 percent approval rating.

Seventy-five percent of poll respondents said suicide bombings are rarely or never justified.
advertisement

And a majority of Pakistanis said their opinion of the United States would improve if, among other things, there were increases in American aid to Pakistan, American business investments and the number of visas issued for Pakistanis to work in the United States.

Terror Free Tomorrow is a non-partisan, nonprofit group in Washington, D.C., and according to its Web site is "the only organization dedicated to a new strategic vision: Leading the fight against terror by winning the popular support that empowers global terrorists."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/...nis/index.html

[NoName55]

^^^ "there are statistics, statistics and outright lies"

poll manipulation is an expert field at which some excel more than others

A way has to be found to convince DumBush to pee in the pot that he just ate from or should I have said that Pakistan's enemies have to find a way to get it disarmed so that pre-nuclear attacks on it can be resumed without let or hindrance

this CNN crap is like me going to a brixton or chapel town club and asking them whether they like bob marley or the local police chief who keeps raiding their smokin den

[wilberhum]

I concider all information I don't like an "Outright Lie".

[NoName55]

I wonder how long Muslims have to tread on eggshells on a so called Muslim site? It seems to promote anything from trolling to worship of kali, but when we dare to make a posts that is contrary to or is disliked by any kafir, it gets zapped quicker than I can say: oh where is my transcript from Brother Dr. Miller speech? (it is in cyber heaven along with many of my articles by Br. Harun) :(

this CNN crap poll is like me going to a brixton or chapel town club and asking them whether they like bob marley or the local police chief who keeps raiding their smokin den __________

[wilberhum]

NoName55,

tread on eggshells

That would be a first. :D

But really, come on. you can't make a statement like

poll manipulation is an expert field at which some excel more than others

and expect quit. :-\

I still can't figure out what my kafirism has to do with it.

[NoName55]

I still can't figure out what my kafirism has to do with it.

no, that was an allusion to another post of mine that got zapped on say so of a kafirah (not you)

poll manipulation is an expert field at which some excel more than others

even though I am on verge of senility I can still get the responses I want from almost anyone(for test purpose)

It is who you ask how you ask where you ask, how you speak to them before you put your questions.

I repeat

this CNN crap poll is like me going to a brixton or chapel town club and asking them whether they like bob Marley or the local police chief who keeps raiding their smoking den.
or me going to a Shi'ite place of worship and ask ;how many of you chaps love Hazrat Abu Bakr

[snakelegs]

bush got 9% approval rating in pakistan???????????

[wilberhum]

bush got 9% approval rating in pakistan???????????

Yep. That is about 8% more than I would have guessed.

Must have been poll manipulation.
(Sorry NoName, just couldn't resist)

[NoName55]

Yep. That is about 8&#37; more than I would have guessed.

Must have been poll manipulation.
(Sorry NoName, just couldn't resist)

If I went to one of remote villages and the population gathered around me and

I told half of them that

• Bush is white emperor from a far of land and his kingdom sent you all that wheat during last draught

and tel the other half that

• he is a demon king who is soon to come to them in his b52 to drop napalm on their village

I can more or less secure a 50% apprval for him

[ahsan28]

bush got 9% approval rating in pakistan???????????

Hi snakelegs, so what did you expect, I think, even 8% is exaggeration :D

[wilberhum]

If I went to one of remote villages and the population gathered around me and

I told half of them that

• Bush is white emperor from a far of land and his kingdom sent you all that wheat during last draught

and tel the other half that

• he is a demon king who is soon to come to them in his b52 to drop napalm on their village

I can more or less secure a 50% apprval for him

So you assume that the people who responded to the polls had no knowledge about what they were being asked?

[NoName55]

So you assume that the people who responded to the polls had no knowledge about what they were being asked

checkout the literacy rate amongst our population then come back (each time we were about to come out of ignorance and start progressing, we were bombed back to start by our "friendly" neighbor,

only respite we have had is since becoming nuclear armed) They have to get that deterrent removed somehow to resume their efforts at "re-unification of India"

[wilberhum]

NoName

The poll was conducted for Terror Free Tomorrow by D3 Systems of Vienna, Virginia., and the Pakistan Institute for Public Opinion. Interviews were conducted August 18-29, face-to-face with

1,044 Pakistanis across 105 urban and rural sampling points in all four provinces across the nation.

Households were randomly selected.

That sounds like good sampleing to me.

[NoName55]

even then, one can frame questions as follows:

• Do you like "sheik" (a scholar) osama (a freedom fighter)?
• Do you like "Dictator" Musharaf ( killer of "Muslims")

or

• Do you like osama the terrorist, killer of unarmed civilians
• Do you like President Musharaf savior of Pakistan, a mojahid who fought against kuffar more than 5 times risking life and limb, a feared by kuffaar commando for many years and the man who held Indians pinned down until Clinton rescued them with help of nawaz sharif

or one can try many variations thereof including osama the mercenary of Russian/afghan war who bought equipment from his own companies with CIA money and has falsely claimed credit for supplying from his own pocket and etc. (I am out of here before I get zapped again)

[wilberhum]

NoName,
You seam to assume that all polls are fixed and no one wants to understand what the situation is. Yet similuar polls show simular results.

Are all polls fixed.

You may think so, I don't.

But then thats just me being me.

[snakelegs]

Hi snakelegs, so what did you expect, I think, even 8% is exaggeration :D

i would think even 1% would be an exaggeration!
re: polls in general - i have to agree with noname. they're meaningless, but i guess they provide jobs.

[ahsan28]

i would think even 1% would be an exaggeration!
re: polls in general - i have to agree with noname. they're meaningless, but i guess they provide jobs.

Agreed. Pakistanis don't like the existing US Govt due to their policies.

[Amadeus85]

Attack on Bhutto convoy kills 130

Ms Bhutto was rushed from the scene to her Karachi residence
At least 130 people were killed when two bombs exploded among crowds in Karachi celebrating the return of the former Pakistani PM Benazir Bhutto.

Ms Bhutto, who was travelling from the city's airport to a rally marking her homecoming after eight years in self-imposed exile, was not hurt.

The truck carrying her had its windows shattered and a door blown off.

The attacks on the motorcade happened despite a heavy security presence following threats from militant groups.

Witnesses described horrific scenes, with bodies and body parts littering the area. Children were among the dead.

Several Islamist groups, including pro-Taleban militants, had said they would attack Ms Bhutto on her return, after she promised to confront those operating in the northern tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.

Her husband, Asif Ali Zardari, said members of the government and intelligence agencies who were going to lose power were behind the attack.

Ms Bhutto had earlier warned that if targeted, she would hold what she described as hidden authorities within the government as partly responsible.


Extremists will not be allowed to stop Pakistanis from selecting their representatives through an open and democratic process
Gordon Johndroe


Ms Bhutto heads the country's largest political force, the Pakistan People's Party (PPP).

She wants to contest parliamentary elections due to be held in January and she has been negotiating with President Pervez Musharraf over a possible power-sharing agreement.

The US has backed such a deal, amid concerns about the military's inability to defeat Islamist militants and Gen Musharraf's rising unpopularity.

Ms Bhutto has been prime minister twice. On both occasions, her government was prematurely dismissed by the president of the day under special powers.

She left Pakistan in April 1999, shortly before Gen Musharraf seized power in a coup - and two years after her husband was jailed and a series of corruption charges were brought against her. She denies the charges.

Gen Musharraf said the attack on Ms Bhutto's convoy was a "conspiracy against democracy".

"The president appealed to the nation and especially the people of Karachi to exercise patience and calm in this hour," said a statement by his office.

The United States also condemned the blasts.

"Extremists will not be allowed to stop Pakistanis from selecting their representatives through an open and democratic process," said National Security Council spokesman Gordon Johndroe.

'Suicide bomber'

Victoria Schofield, a friend of Ms Bhutto who was also on the bus, said the former prime minister had been standing on top of the bus for six hours, but had just gone downstairs to work on a speech when the first explosion went off.

"We were sitting up on the top and suddenly there was this absolute flash of light and a blast," she told the BBC.


"I felt lots of really hot air coming and we all - there were about 15 of us on the top of the bus - we all literally went to the ground."

Ms Schofield said the first blast was relatively small but that it had had left people sitting on the left-hand side of the bus covered with blood.

She said the first explosion had come from a parked car which police had begun to investigate. Ms Schofield said a second, much larger explosion occurred two minutes later.

"There was blood all around and it was chaos - and we couldn't understand what was happening - we didn't know where to go, what to do," said Farzana Raja, a spokeswoman for the PPP.

Most of the dead were members of the PPP, although police vehicles took the main force of the blasts and more than 20 police officers are thought to have died. A cameraman for a local TV station was also killed.


KEY DATES
06 Oct: Presidential polls held
17 Oct: Supreme Court resumes hearing challenges to Musharraf candidacy
18 Oct: Benazir Bhutto's homecoming
15 Nov: Parliamentary term ends and general election must be held by mid-January

Flying into uncertainty

The chief of police in Karachi, Azhar Farooqi, said a preliminary investigation suggested the second blast had been caused by a suicide bomber.

"The first blast was probably a hand grenade and it did not cause much damage," he told the BBC.

After the blasts, a dazed Ms Bhutto was immediately rushed from the scene to her Karachi home.

Ms Bhutto flew in from Dubai earlier on Thursday, accompanied by about 100 PPP members.

At least 200,000 people turned out to greet her in what correspondents described as a carnival atmosphere, but the crowds slowed the progress of her convoy.

Ms Bhutto had been planning to make a speech at the tomb of Pakistan's founding father, Mohammed Ali Jinnah.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7051804.stm

[wilberhum]

As of late, it seams that the answer to everything in Pakistan is a Suicide Bomber.

[ahsan28]

The credit goes to puppet Afghan Govt for opposing sealing of pak-Afghan border to ensure mass infiltration into Pakistan. They are quite successful in implementation of their agenda.

[wilberhum]

The credit goes to puppet Afghan Govt for opposing sealing of pak-Afghan border to ensure mass infiltration into Pakistan. They are quite successful in implementation of their agenda.

I would expect you to justify Suicide Bombing. :(
I bet you think they are now in heaven. :giggling:

[snakelegs]

i'd like to ask the pakistanis here -
what do you think lies ahead for pakistan?
who would you support for president?
do you think there is any chance that supreme court will defy president musharraf and refuse to drop the corruption charges against BB?
do you think there will be martial law?

[ahsan28]

I would expect you to justify Suicide Bombing. :(
I bet you think they are now in heaven. :giggling:

In Islam, no school of jurisprudence permits suicide bombings against innocent civilians and non-combatants. About their future destination to either heaven or hell, Im in no capacity to comment :D

Heaven and hell are decided by the God Almighty alone :D

[wilberhum]

It seams like every day another Suicide Bomber strikes.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...F58611285E.htm
Deadly blast near Pakistan army HQ
A suicide attack has killed at least seven people, including the bomber, less than a kilometre from Pervez Musharraf's army headquarters in Rawalpindi, police say.

Three policemen and three passers-by were among those killed, while 11 people were wounded in Tuesday's blast, Saud Aziz, the city police chief, said.

[wilberhum]

On a more positive point:
Pakistan fighters declare ceasefire
Armed supporters of a pro-Taliban cleric in troubled northwestern Pakistan have agreed to a ceasefire, a day after security forces backed by helicopter gunships targeted their hideouts.

An uneasy calm prevailed on Tuesday in the area, a day after the ceasefire which followed four days of fighting that left more than 100 people dead.




Swat, a valley close to Pakistan's lawless tribal belt bordering Afghanistan, has seen a surge in violence since Maulana Fazlullah, the cleric, launched an FM radio station and launched a Taliban-style Islamisation campaign.
(More)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...9F85E222FD.htm

[Amadeus85]

It seams like every day another Suicide Bomber strikes.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...F58611285E.htm
Deadly blast near Pakistan army HQ
A suicide attack has killed at least seven people, including the bomber, less than a kilometre from Pervez Musharraf's army headquarters in Rawalpindi, police say.

Three policemen and three passers-by were among those killed, while 11 people were wounded in Tuesday's blast, Saud Aziz, the city police chief, said.

Jeez, Pakistan is a warzone nowadays. When there be peace in future..

[wilberhum]

Jeez, Pakistan is a warzone nowadays. When there be peace in future..

I assume never. :thumbs_do

But then no one ever accused me of being an optimist. :D

[ahsan28]

Jeez, Pakistan is a warzone nowadays. When there be peace in future..

When Will the US and NATO leave Afghanistan?

[Amadeus85]

When Will the US and NATO leave Afghanistan?

Since when NATO and US are in Pakistan? As i see it, the problem of this country lays in conflict between religous extremists and secular president.

[ahsan28]

I assume never. :thumbs_do

So long as you look at the scenerio in isolation :D

All happenings in Pakistan are as a direct result of what is happening in Afghanistan. The West couldn't defeat Talibans and Pakistan is paying heavily against the failures of Western forces. Suicidal attacks in Pakistan are taking place in retaliation to the pro-US policies by the existing GOVT. The day Pakistan leaves the coalition in the absurd and baseless war against terror, Im sure there will be no suicial attacks in Pakistan.

[ahsan28]

Since when NATO and US are in Pakistan? As i see it, the problem of this country lays in conflict between religous extremists and secular president.

Which country is providing air space and logistic support to the operations in Afghanistan? Don't you think employment of 100,000 Pakistani soldiers along western border in support of coalition will lead to retaliation?

[Amadeus85]

Which country is providing air space and logistic support to the operations in Afghanistan? Don't you think employment of 100,000 Pakistani soldiers along western border in support of coalition will lead to retaliation?

You are right, i forgot about this fact.

[waji]

:sl:

when Russia attacked Afghanistan the people who fought with
them, majority were phastoons and phastoons are in Afghanistan and Pakistan so its like a family now if someone hit one part of the family the others will react
Now Tribal people are master of making hand made weapons so there is not anyway there will be a shortage of weapons there so the fight is on ..............
The most important point Like Pakistan had given US and NATO their air fields and other assistance the same way Tribals says that they have right to help their family when they have fought with them how can they go against them ??
So fighting Tribals or phastoons is not good for Pakistan or for anybody we have seen the history.

:w:

[KAding]

When Will the US and NATO leave Afghanistan?

Benazhir Bhutto got attacked because of the US presence in Afghanistan?

I was under the impression it was mostly Pakistanis killing Pakistanis. Sunni's vs. Shiites. Orthodox Muslims vs. 'moderates'. Stuff like that? After all, most terrorist attacks are actually aimed at religious events, no?

List of recent bombings in Pakistan:

2003

* July 5 At least 47 people were killed and 150 injured in an attack on a Shia mosque in the south-western Pakistani city of Quetta.[14]

* December 14 President Pervez Musharraf survived an assassination attempt when a powerful bomb went off minutes after his highly-guarded convoy crossed a bridge in Rawalpindi. Musharraf was apparently saved by a jamming device in his limousine that prevented the remote controlled explosives from blowing up the bridge as his convoy passed over it.[15]

* December 25 Another attempt was carried on the president 11 days later when two suicide bombers tried to assassinate Musharraf, but their car bombs failed to kill the president; 16 others nearby died instead. Musharraf escaped with only a cracked windscreen on his car. Militant Amjad Farooqi was apparently suspected as being the mastermind behind these attempts, and was killed by Pakistani forces in 2004 after an extensive manhunt.[16]

2004

* March 2 At least 47 persons are killed and more than 150 wounded when a procession of the Shia sect is attacked by rival Sunni extremists at Liaquat Bazaar in Quetta.

* May 7 A suicide bomber attacked a crowded Shia mosque, killing 23 worshipers. One person was killed in the riots that follows the attack.

* May 26 Two car bombs explode within 20 minutes of each other outside the Pakistan-American Cultural Center and near the US consul general's residence, killing one policemen and injuring more than 10 people, mainly policemen and journalists.[17]

* May 30 A religious scholar, Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, was gunned down in his car while leaving his home.[18]

* May 31 A suicide bomber blew up the Imam Ali Reza mosque in the middle of evening prayers, killing 21 worshipers. Two people are killed in riots over the mosque attack and Shamzai's assassination.

* June 10 Gunmen opened fire on a convoy carrying the then core commander Lt Gen Ahsan Saleem Hyat leaving 11 people dead. The core commander who escaped unhurt later became the vice chief of army staff under General Pervez Musharraf.[19]

* July 30 Assassination attempt on the then Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, while he was campaigning for by-election in Fateh Jang, Punjab. Even though he survived the attempt, nine people were killed due to the suicide bombing.[20]

* October 1 A suicide bombing left 30 people dead at a Shia mosque in the northeastern city of Sialkot.[21]

* October 7 A car bomb left 40 people dead in the central city of Multan during a Sunni meeting. This was most probably the retaliation of Sialkot suicide attacks exactly a week ago.

2005

* March 19 44 people were killed when a Sipah-e-Sahaba terrorist exploded himself in a mixed crowd of Shia and Sunni devotees at the shrine of Pir Rakhel Shah in Balochistan.[22]

* May 27 Suicide bombing at the shrine of Bari Imam in Islamabad left 19 people dead.

* October 7 Eight members of the Ahmadiyya faith were killed inside a mosque as worshippers were performing Salah. The incident occurred in Mandi Bahauddin in Punjab, Pakistan. [23]

* 15 November A car bomb exploded outside a Kentucky Fried Chicken outlet in Karachi, Pakistan at around 08:45 (UTC+5). At least three people were killed and eight others wounded. [24]

2006

* 5 February A bomb explosion killed 13 people on a bus near Quetta. No groups claimed of responsibility for the attack. [25]

* March 2 A power suicide car bomb attack in the high security zone near the US Consulate, Karachi, killed four people including a US diplomat.[26]

* 10 March Twenty-six people, mostly women & children, are killed in Dera Bugti, southwest Pakistan after their bus hit a landmine. Both tribal rebels and security forces planted landmines in the area. [27]

* April 11 Over 50 people, including Sunni scholars, were killed in a bomb explosion at a religious gathering celebrating the birthday of Prophet Muhammad in Nishtar Park, Karachi.[28]

* July 14 Allama Hassan Turabi, a Shiite religious scholar, and his 12-year-old nephew died in a suicide attack near his Abbas Town residence. The suicide bomber was later identified as Abdul Karim, a Bangladeshi-speaking, resident of a shantytown in the central city area of Karachi.[29]

* November 8 A suicide bomber killed 42 Pakistani Army soldiers and injured 20 in the northwestern town of Dargai, apparently in retaliation to the Chenagai airstrike which killed 80 people in the same Bajaur region in the previous month.[30]

2007

* January 26 Two people were killed and five injured in a suspected suicide attack in Pakistan. The bomber and a security guard were killed in the blast at the Marriott hotel in the capital Islamabad.[31]

* April 28 Assassination attempt on Aftab Ahmad Khan Sherpao, who is the Interior minister that killed 28 people in Charsadda, NWFP. This time again an attempt on a high ranking officer of Pakistani government was unsuccessful.[32]

* May 15 A bomb blast at the local hotel in the northwestern city of Peshawar killed 24 people and injured 30.[33]

* October 18 Attack on Benazir Bhutto convoy kills over 136 in Karachi leaving hundreds injured.[34]. Former PM Ms Benazir Bhutto was returning after 8 years of self imposed exile to introduce democracy after few attempts of deals with General Pervez Musharraf. Karachi Bombs in Pictures

I just can't see how you can blame all that violence on the US and NATO presence in Afghanistan? Most of it seems to have some religious motivation. Much is also more political, yet, even then it is still Pakistanis vs. Pakistanis. Is it the US fault that some Pakistanis side with the US?

[ahsan28]

Benazhir Bhutto got attacked because of the US presence in Afghanistan?

I just can't see how you can blame all that violence on the US and NATO presence in Afghanistan? Most of it seems to have some religious motivation. Much is also more political, yet, even then it is still Pakistanis vs. Pakistanis. Is it the US fault that some Pakistanis side with the US?

1. Benazir issued controversial statements prior to her arrival in Pakistan that she will handover DR Abdul Qadeer Khan to international agencies for further interrogation and she would allow US and NATO to strike tribal areas, the two aspects about which the existing Pakistan's Govt has also been resisting and has taken firm stand, despite implementing pro-US policies. She was openly threatened by Tribal leaders for her pro-US stance.

2. None of the suicidal attacks has any linkage to political turmoil, these have been carried out on Govt officials and VIPs for assisting the US in the war against terror. Why don't you see NATO and US failure against Talibans, so many years passed and they are still unable to claim any worthwhile success, despite having been equipped with state-of-the-art weapon systems and other resources and the world expects Pakistan to do some magic and restore the situation in entire South Asia :D

3. If Pakistan announces its disengagement today, there will be no retaliation from those, who consider the existing Govt killers of the Muslims.

[wilberhum]

1. Benazir issued controversial statements prior to her arrival in Pakistan that she will handover DR Abdul Qadeer Khan to international agencies for further interrogation and she would allow US and NATO to strike tribal areas, the two aspects about which the existing Pakistan's Govt has also been resisting and has taken firm stand, despite implementing pro-US policies. She was openly threatened by Tribal leaders for her pro-US stance.
...................
.

So not agreeing with her political stance justifies killing those who support her.

Interesting. :?

[ahsan28]

So not agreeing with her political stance justifies killing those who support her.

Thats how those people perceive and view her as the enemy of Islam and Pakistan.

[wilberhum]

Thats how those people perceive and view her as the enemy of Islam and Pakistan.

And that justifies murder?

[ahsan28]

And that justifies murder?

That you should ask those whose families have been killed and houses destroyed because of this absurd war against terror :D

They may be in a better position to explain :D

[wilberhum]

Taht you should ask those whose families have been killed and houses destroyed because of this absurd war against terror :D

They may be in a better position to explain :D

So I assume your answer is yes.

I also assume that you think it is ok to kill some one who blongs to a group that did something wrong to you.

Sad, so sad.

[ahsan28]

So I assume your answer is yes.

I also assume that you think it is ok to kill some one who blongs to a group that did something wrong to you.Sad, so sad.

As I said, ask those who are the victims of this war against terror and im not amongst those, so can't really become spokesman on their behalf.

Why don't you visit Afghanistan and adjacent tribal areas of Pakistan to get ist hand knowledge :D

[wilberhum]

As I said, ask those who are the victims of this war against terror and im not amongst those, so can't really become spokesman on their behalf.

Why don't you visit Afghanistan and adjacent tribal areas of Pakistan to get ist hand knowledge :D

Why do you refuse to answer the question?

I can only think of two reasons.

[ahsan28]

Why do you refuse to answer the question?

Because I don't like one-sided opinion, loaded with biased thinking and pre-conceived notions. If you condemn suicide attacks, well you have to condemn those also, who are the initiators of state terrorism against weaker nations. Remember illegal occupation leads to retaliation and there is no doubt about that. Accept the reality, though it may be hard for you to swallow :D

[wilberhum]

Because I don't like one-sided opinion, loaded with biased thinking and pre-conceived notions. If you condemn suicide attacks, well you have to condemn those also, who are the initiators of state terrorism against weaker nations. Remember illegal occupation leads to retaliation and there is no doubt about that. Accept the reality, though it may be hard for you to swallow :D

Then you should give up your one-sided opinion, loaded with biased thinking and pre-conceived notions.

[ahsan28]

Then you should give up your one-sided opinion, loaded with biased thinking and pre-conceived notions.

Why? If you don't consider anything about mass killings of innocents as a result of state terrorism, doesn't mean others also don't :D

We should try to address the issues, which lead to suicide attacks, rather wasting our energies and resources in killings of women and kids through blind air strikes and missiles.

[wilberhum]

Why? If you don't consider anything about mass killings of innocents as a result of state terrorism, doesn't mean others also don't :D

We should try to address the issues, which lead to suicide attacks, rather wasting our energies and resources in killings of women and kids through blind air strikes and missiles.

You have no clue what I think. :?

You seam to have no problem with shooting women in the back of the head for it's entertainment value. You only seam to care if women and children are killed when they are taken to the war front.

But what leads to suicide attacke?
You act like there is one answer. :hmm:
Complex situations have complex causes and there are no simple answers.
Intollorance, religious concepts and hate in general are great contributers.
But there are a thousand other factors.

[ahsan28]

But there are a thousand other factors.

Of course there are many but you didn't mention like dropping 1000 kgs smart bombs on women and kids, precision guided missiles, tanks, artillery and gunships, which are being used to kill Afghans, these are the prime factors, leading to retaliations.

[wilberhum]

Of course there are many but you didn't mention like dropping 1000 kgs smart bombs on women and kids, precision guided missiles, tanks, artillery and gunships, which are being used to kill Afghans, these are the prime factors, leading to retaliations.

As I said on the Taliban readies for Ramadan thread:

It is always interesting when people use B to justify A, forgetting A comes before B.

[ahsan28]

As I said on the Taliban readies for Ramadan thread:

I replied you in the same thread :D

[snakelegs]

Benazhir Bhutto got attacked because of the US presence in Afghanistan?

I was under the impression it was mostly Pakistanis killing Pakistanis. Sunni's vs. Shiites. Orthodox Muslims vs. 'moderates'. Stuff like that? After all, most terrorist attacks are actually aimed at religious events, no?

List of recent bombings in Pakistan:


I just can't see how you can blame all that violence on the US and NATO presence in Afghanistan? Most of it seems to have some religious motivation. Much is also more political, yet, even then it is still Pakistanis vs. Pakistanis. Is it the US fault that some Pakistanis side with the US?

this is only my impression, based on what friends have said and what i've read. any explanation is bound to be an over-simplification.
first of all, you can't really separate politics and religion in pakistan. it is a conservative and traditional society. i think that although traditional and religious, most pakistanis do not want to establish shariah. (but of course, this is only an impression).
there is a great deal of anger among many pakistanis at their gov't siding with the u.s. (though the alternative was, was probably the option of being bombed in to the stone age) and there is also anger at the u.s. both for its attack on afghanistan and at the u.s. violation of pakistani sovereignty
bhutto is seen as bush's pick of the crop. (personally, i think recycling corrupt leaders is pathetic.)
over the years due to the soviet occupation of afghanistan, the u.s. with its usual shortsightedness, and the pak. gov't supported the religious right to fight its proxy war against the u.s.s.r. as soon as the ussr left, the u.s. promptly lost interest. afghanistan was plunged in to a mess. the talibaan were welcomed by many, simply because they restored order and security.
even before this, various pakistani governments have also played "the religious card" for their own motivations.
there is a serious threat from the religious nut jobs (pardon the expression:D), who have declared a "holy war" (al-qaeda has too) against the gov't of pakistan and who seek to impose shariah on the country by force. they have killed a number of pakistani soldiers and police forces, esp in the tribal areas, which have never really been under control from the central gov't.
so you cannot really separate the political from the religious - both are going on and division between the 2 is often blurred.
so much for my take.
what lies ahead for pakistan, i have no idea and don't know if anyone does but i hope it is better.

[KAding]

1. Benazir issued controversial statements prior to her arrival in Pakistan that she will handover DR Abdul Qadeer Khan to international agencies for further interrogation and she would allow US and NATO to strike tribal areas, the two aspects about which the existing Pakistan's Govt has also been resisting and has taken firm stand, despite implementing pro-US policies. She was openly threatened by Tribal leaders for her pro-US stance.

Yes, and it is internal Pakistani dynamics that are leading this to violence in the first place. In many other countries these conflicts would be resolved through more peaceful means. This is Pakistanis vs. Pakistanis. The US and NATO just play a side role in this, they seem like an excuse for other cleavages within Pakistani society. I mean, the list I posted clearly shows the majority of these bombings have nothing to do with the US presence in a neighboring country. Most of this violence is against religious gatherings.

2. None of the suicidal attacks has any linkage to political turmoil, these have been carried out on Govt officials and VIPs for assisting the US in the war against terror. Why don't you see NATO and US failure against Talibans, so many years passed and they are still unable to claim any worthwhile success, despite having been equipped with state-of-the-art weapon systems and other resources and the world expects Pakistan to do some magic and restore the situation in entire South Asia :D

So you are telling me that all these bombings on mosques, Shiites, Sunnis, funerals and whatnot were really government targets or VIPs? In the hundreds that died in all these terrorist attacks, there was 1 (one) American diplomat. All the other victims were Pakistanis.

It is still Pakistanis blowing up Pakistanis. Clearly you are viewing Pakistan as being in a civil war. To you political disagreement is logically fought out using violence. "Benazir made controversial statements, of course it was attempted to blow up her and her followers, duh!".

You state of mind is one of war. Apparently there are enough in Pakistan who share your view and also consider it completely natural for this to be fought out violently.

[ahsan28]

I mean, the list I posted clearly shows the majority of these bombings have nothing to do with the US presence in a neighboring country. Most of this violence is against religious gatherings.

It is still Pakistanis blowing up Pakistanis. Clearly you are viewing Pakistan as being in a civil war. To you political disagreement is logically fought out using violence. "Benazir made controversial statements, of course it was attempted to blow up her and her followers, duh!".

You state of mind is one of war. Apparently there are enough in Pakistan who share your view and also consider it completely natural for this to be fought out violently.

The 32 high profile under investigation cases of 2006 and 2007 include the Hangu suicide attack; suicide attack at Punjab Regiment Centre Dargai; Islamabad Marriot Hotel bomb blast; suicide attack targeting police officers in Peshawar during Moharram; suicide attack on army convoy at Tank; suicide attack in a Quetta district court; suicide attack at the public meeting of Aftab Ahmad Khan Sherpao, the interior minister, at Charsadda; suicide attack at police lines D I Khan; suicide attack at Army convoy in general area Matta; suicide attack in police training centre, Hangu; suicide attack on an ISI bus in Rawalpindi; suicide attack on the Mess of Zarrar Company (SSG) at Tarbela Ghazi; suicide attack on police personnel in Dawa Ghara in Bannu; suicide attack on the caravan of Benazir Bhutto near PN Karsaz, Karachi; and attack on Frontier constabulary truck in Mingora Swat. The above details cover the major terrorist attacks till October 25, 2007.

In all a total of 60 suicide attacks have hit Pakistan, which resulted into the killing of 796 people and injuring 2275. The vast majority of these attacks, however, were recorded in 2007 although in the previous years such incidents remained a few each year. The details show that there were four terrorist attacks in 2002; two in 2003; five in 2004; two in 2005; six in 2006 and 41 in 2007.


http://www.thenews.com.pk/print3.asp?id=10875

Add another suicide attack near Army Headquarters on 30 OCT 2007 and that makes a total of 61 suicidal attacks. Now prove to me, how many out of 61 suicidal attacks were reportedly made on religious or sectarian basis?

I will appreciate your response supported by a credible source.

[KAding]

The 32 high profile under investigation cases of 2006 and 2007 include the Hangu suicide attack; suicide attack at Punjab Regiment Centre Dargai; Islamabad Marriot Hotel bomb blast; suicide attack targeting police officers in Peshawar during Moharram; suicide attack on army convoy at Tank; suicide attack in a Quetta district court; suicide attack at the public meeting of Aftab Ahmad Khan Sherpao, the interior minister, at Charsadda; suicide attack at police lines D I Khan; suicide attack at Army convoy in general area Matta; suicide attack in police training centre, Hangu; suicide attack on an ISI bus in Rawalpindi; suicide attack on the Mess of Zarrar Company (SSG) at Tarbela Ghazi; suicide attack on police personnel in Dawa Ghara in Bannu; suicide attack on the caravan of Benazir Bhutto near PN Karsaz, Karachi; and attack on Frontier constabulary truck in Mingora Swat. The above details cover the major terrorist attacks till October 25, 2007.

In all a total of 60 suicide attacks have hit Pakistan, which resulted into the killing of 796 people and injuring 2275. The vast majority of these attacks, however, were recorded in 2007 although in the previous years such incidents remained a few each year. The details show that there were four terrorist attacks in 2002; two in 2003; five in 2004; two in 2005; six in 2006 and 41 in 2007.


http://www.thenews.com.pk/print3.asp?id=10875

Add another suicide attack near Army Headquarters on 30 OCT 2007 and that makes a total of 61 suicidal attacks. Now prove to me, how many out of 61 suicidal attacks were reportedly made on religious or sectarian basis?

I will appreciate your response supported by a credible source.

I am quite willingly to be corrected and accept the figures you posted.

The following site have an even more comprehensive list:
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countr...rincidents.htm

So the majority of the attacks are directed against political targets, such as government officials or the likes of Bhutto. On top of that a minority of terrorist attacks are of a sectarian nature. Apparently Pakistan is essentially in (or at the very least slipping into) a civil war. A very troubling fact, it is without doubt the most unstable nuclear-armed power on this planet.

[ahsan28]

[QUOTE=KAding;852153 I mean, the list I posted clearly shows the majority of these bombings have nothing to do with the US presence in a neighboring country. Most of this violence is against religious gatherings.[/QUOTE]


Add another:-

Suicide bomber kills at least 8 in Pakistan


Published: November 1, 2007
International Herald Tribune


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: A suicide bomber struck a bus of the Pakistan Air Force Thursday morning in the central city of Sargodha, killing eight people and wounding 40 others, Air Force officials said.

The bomber rammed into the Air Force bus near Sargodha Air base, 225 kilometers south of Islamabad, considered to be the country's most important airbase. It is the headquarters of Southern Air Command and two squadrons of F-16 fighter jets are based here.

It was the first such attack on Air Force personnel, suggesting an escalation in the challenges to Pakistan's president, General Pervez Musharraf. His authority has been undermined by growing unrest in tribal regions near the border with Afghanistan, where there have been a rising number of deadly attacks on military targets by militants sympathetic to the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

All earlier major attacks had been on personnel and installations of the Pakistan Army.


http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/...01pakistan.php

[ahsan28]

A very troubling fact, it is without doubt the most unstable nuclear-armed power on this planet.

But the existing instability on internal front has been gifted by the West. Pakistan is paying and will continue to pay for its siding with US in the so-called war against terror.

[KAding]

But the existing instability on internal front has been gifted by the West. Pakistan is paying and will continue to pay for its siding with US in the so-called war against terror.

So you don't see some deeper problem here? A clash between secularists and orthodox Muslims? In your opinion is for example the Red Mosque stand-off also directly related to the US presence in Afghanistan?

I'm asking because I have this feeling that the US presence is really just a catalyst in this. That there are deep disagreements in Pakistan on how to govern the country and whether to set up an Islamic state or not.

[ahsan28]

So you don't see some deeper problem here? A clash between secularists and orthodox Muslims? In your opinion is for example the Red Mosque stand-off also directly related to the US presence in Afghanistan?

I'm asking because I have this feeling that the US presence is really just a catalyst in this. That there are deep disagreements in Pakistan on how to govern the country and whether to set up an Islamic state or not.

If you take into account the period before Pakistan was trapped by the US for the unholy alliance against Talibans, you would seldom find examples of such attacks on security forces and other Govt officials.

The Red Mosque incident contributed further towards the hatred and ill-feelings against the existing unpopular Govt. We can't take a single occurrence in isolation for basing our analysis of the suicide bombings in Pakistan. People seem extremely upset and opposed to the existing policies of the Govt, aimed at appeasing the US Govt, which is equally unable to control the insurgency in Afghanistan. The whole scenerio appears bleak, especially for Pakistan, which is slowly and gradually turning into another Afghanistan.

[wilberhum]

Another day, another suicide bomber

Several die in Pakistan bomb attack
At least eight people have been killed and dozens wounded in a suicide bomb attack on a bus carrying air force officials in Pakistan.

The suicide bomber crashed his motorbike laden with explosives into the bus in the Sargodha district of central Punjab province on Thursday.

Javed Cheema, an interior ministry spokeman, said: "The bus was carrying trainee flying officers when it was attacked.

"Eight air force officials died in the terrorist attack."

According to security officials, the dead included a squadron leader, two airmen and five trainee flying officers.

Children hurt

The largest air force base in Pakistan is located in the region.
The bomber's dismembered head was found at the scene, said Hamid Javed, a police officer.

"There was a huge bang which was heard several kilometres away," he said.

Anwar Ali, another police officer, told the AFP news agency that three school children were also hurt when shrapnel hit a nearby van in which they were travelling.

Sargodha was the scene of a failed suicide bomb attack a few months ago when an attacker managed to enter a police compound but was shot dead before he could blow himself up.

The attack comes two days after a bomber struck the army office of Pervez Musharraf, the president, in the city of Rawalpindi.
(More)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...BA88C1EF76.htm

[MTAFFI]

Another day, another suicide bomber

Several die in Pakistan bomb attack
At least eight people have been killed and dozens wounded in a suicide bomb attack on a bus carrying air force officials in Pakistan.

The suicide bomber crashed his motorbike laden with explosives into the bus in the Sargodha district of central Punjab province on Thursday.
...

what worse, they claim to do this in the name of Islam and Jihad

what even worse than that is when people stick up for them and claim they have the right and cause to do such acts that go against everything Islam stands for, effectively enabling and supporting those involved :grumbling

[wilberhum]

Taliban told to close offices by Nov 12
BANNU, Nov 1: A jirga of Ahmadzai Wazir tribe of Domel town and adjoining areas has told the local Taliban to close their offices and stop their activities in the area by Nov 12.

At its meeting in Domel on Thursday, the jirga urged local people to stop giving donations to the Taliban.

It decided that an armed force would be raised after the deadline to control the law and order situation and work for maintaining peace.

The meeting observed that the Taliban had violated an earlier agreement with local people and declared that they should pay a fine of Rs1 million. It decided that anyone providing space for Taliban’s office or giving them donation would be fined Rs500,000. “We will not take the law into our hands, rather we will abide by Islamic injunctions,” the participants said.

The jirga constituted a committee to select volunteers for the force and ensure that the Taliban closed their office by the deadline.

http://dawn.com/2007/11/02/nat32.htm

[salmanthehunk]

PAKISTAN: Emergency has been imposed all over the country and a new PCO has been issued.

[SophiaCroft]

I was checking news and this is the new I found (same as above but in detail) :

General Musharraf imposes emergency, suspends constitution

ISLAMABAD ( 2007-11-03 20:08:15 ) :
Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf imposed emergency rule on Saturday and deployed troops across the capital in a bid to reassert his flagging authority against political rivals and militants.

Pakistan's internal security has deteriorated sharply in recent months with a wave of suicide attacks by al Qaeda-inspired militants, including one that killed 139 people.

Pakistan Television said General Musharraf, who is also chief of army staff, had suspended the constitution and declared an emergency. The move is expected to put off parliamentary elections due in January.

Witnesses said paramilitary troops were deployed at Pakistan Television and radio stations ahead of the announcement, which follows weeks of speculation that US ally Musharraf might impose emergency rule or martial law.

Troops sealed off Constitution Avenue, the thoroughfare where the presidency building, the National Assembly and the Supreme Court are located.

Television channels also said that Supreme Court Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry, whose earlier dismissal in March marked the beginning of a slide in Musharraf's popularity, had been told that his services were "no longer required".

The SC said on Friday it would reconvene on Monday and try to finish the case quickly, having earlier said it would take a break until Nov. 12 -- just three days before Musharraf's current term is due to expire.

A senior security official told Reuters that Musharraf would seek approval for the move from the cabinet later, after which there were expectations he would address the nation.

The cabinet was due to start meeting at 7 pm (1400 GMT).

"NOT PLEASANT NEWS"

Bhutto's husband Asif Ali Zardari said she was already on a flight back to Pakistan from Dubai. He described Musharraf's move was "definitely not pleasant news".

"We're hoping to build institutions, not destroy them."

Before the announcement on emergency rule, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice had told journalists travelling with her to Turkey that Washington opposed any authoritarian measures and wanted elections to go ahead.

"I think it would be quite obvious that the United States would not be supportive of extra-constitutional means," Rice said. "Pakistan needs to prepare for and hold free and fair elections."

In London, a spokesman for former Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif said; "We feel it's a desperate attempt of a defeated dictator who has been exposed for what he is in the eyes of the world."

"He (Musharraf) feels the Supreme Court will not allow him to remain the president. That's why he has taken the decision," spokesman Nadir Chaudhri said,

[snakelegs]

very sad, but probably unavoidable.

[NoName55]

In London, a spokesman for former Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif said; "We feel it's a desperate attempt of a defeated dictator who has been exposed for what he is in the eyes of the world."

shameless and ungrateful bunch of unrepentant robbers!

"He (Musharraf) feels the Supreme Court will not allow him to remain the president. That's why he has taken the decision," spokesman Nadir Chaudhri said,

so he should let the killers do their "jihad" lest he is accused of something like this?

[snakelegs]

shameless and ungrateful bunch of unrepentant robbers!

so he should let the killers do their "jihad" lest he is accused of something like this?

he will take criticism from all sides. but with all the attacks/killings/hostage taking of pakistani soldiers and police, what choice did he have? the u.s. didn't want him to do it - do they want the country to just sink in to complete anarchy, providing an excuse for direct intervention?

[NoName55]

he will take criticism from all sides. but with all the attacks/killings/hostage taking of pakistani soldiers and police, what choice did he have? the u.s. didn't want him to do it - do they want the country to just sink in to complete anarchy, providing an excuse for direct intervention?

I suspect so!

[SophiaCroft]

he will take criticism from all sides. but with all the attacks/killings/hostage taking of pakistani soldiers and police, what choice did he have? the u.s. didn't want him to do it - do they want the country to just sink in to complete anarchy, providing an excuse for direct intervention?

I think it was the main idea from the start. It a basic plot to take over country that make the nation fight amoung themselves and it is going very well . I feel so concered for Pakistani. :cry: May Allah Help them. Ameen

[KAding]

I suspect so!

So cynical! :-\

[KAding]

I think it was the main idea from the start. It a basic plot to take over country that make the nation fight amoung themselves and it is going very well . I feel so concered for Pakistani. :cry: May Allah Help them. Ameen

So maybe the first step by Pakistanis (on all sides) should be to stop killing each other? Then this 'main idea' from the US could never become reality!

[KAding]

On the other hand you also have to wonder why the US would want a nuclear armed country to plunge into chaos and anarchy?

[ahsan28]

[QUOTE=snakelegs;853606 the u.s. didn't want him to do it - do they want the country to just sink in to complete anarchy, providing an excuse for direct intervention?[/QUOTE]

Not until they require Pakistan's support in the absurd war against terror, afterwards, same attitude would be shown, as they displayed after Soviet withdrawal. Pakistan is fighting their war, not its own.

[snakelegs]

Not until they require Pakistan's support in the absurd war against terror, afterwards, same attitude would be shown, as they displayed after Soviet withdrawal. Pakistan is fighting their war, not its own.

are you saying that if bush, inc. woke up one day and quit this "war on terror" that all of pakistan's problems would be over? are you saying that those who have declared jihaad on the gov't of pakistan and demand shariah, would pack up and go home?
i think pakistan is fighting both internal and external enemies. not everything can be blamed on the u.s., no matter how tempting and convenient it might be.
as for your claim above, i think pakistan is fighting the u.s. war but it is also fighting its own.
i do not know why the u.s. didn't want president musharraf to do anything when almost every day pakistani soldiers are being attacked, killed and taken hostage - could any country just sit there and allow this to go on?
it would not surprise me if the u.s. wants to intervene directly, though i hope i am wrong. those who are fighting this (declared) jihaad against pakistan, do not seem to concern themselves with external reality.
personally, while i think it is sad, i do not see that general musharraf had any choice - what would you have had him do - nothing? sit there and wait for the u.s. to come in and clean up the mess?
also, you may have noticed that he has openly defied the u.s. for the first time - you should give him credit for that, if nothing else. i do.

sophia croft:

I think it was the main idea from the start. It a basic plot to take over country that make the nation fight amoung themselves and it is going very well . I feel so concered for Pakistani. May Allah Help them. Ameen

i am also concerned and ameen to your prayer. however, as i said above, i see both internal and external dangers to the country. pakistanis were fighting among themselves before the "war on terror" was invented!

[ahsan28]

are you saying that those who have declared jihaad on the gov't of pakistan and demand shariah, would pack up and go home?
i think pakistan is fighting both internal and external enemies. !

I will restrict myself to replying to this part only, as I can't type more, really tired, so please accept my inability.


1. Did anyone declare jihad against Pakistan's Govt, prior to its joining in war against terror with US? If you analyse fairly, you would agree with me that jihadi elements were never so vocal and active as are today.

2. I agree as far as internal front is concerned, but not sure about external front, if you could kindly explain to me?

If you are mentioning about India, you should be relaxed on that account as those with some vision don't foresee any war between these two countries in near future atleast, since conventional superiority held by India for a long time has already been marginalised by Pakistan on becoming a nuclear power. Both countries are well familiar with MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) and can't afford to go into war against each other. Moreover they can't have big gains in any future war, so the possibility seems remote and if Kashmir issue is resolved, the chance of war between the two countries will be zero.

[Talha777]

I agree with brother Ahsan that most, if not all of the turmoil that is now in Pakistan is a direct result of America's so called "War on Terror" and its blackmailing of the Pakistani government to do the brunt of the dirty work in this war. But the people of Pakistan are self-respecting people and they do not want to be slaves of America, this is why there is so much popular opposition against the tyranny of Musharraf, who is basically an American stool pigeon.

Musharraf answers to the government of America, not the people of Pakistan, which is why he had the nerve and confidence to commit such atrocities such as the Lal Masjid massacre, the ongoing massacre and supression of the people of Baluchistan and Wazirstan, and the harrassment of the madrassahs, which are the vanguard of Islam. Whoever does not realize the nature of Musharraf's satanic campaign to destroy Islam in Pakistan is truly blind. And whoever does not realize that America is behind it is even more so.

[wilberhum]

Musharraf answers to the government of America

Isn't that odd. He answers to the US as he declares Marshal Law which the US is condemning. :hiding:

But it isn’t odd that some people over look all facts that don’t support their point of view. :giggling:

[snakelegs]

I will restrict myself to replying to this part only, as I can't type more, really tired, so please accept my inability.


1. Did anyone declare jihad against Pakistan's Govt, prior to its joining in war against terror with US? If you analyse fairly, you would agree with me that jihadi elements were never so vocal and active as are today.

this is true - u.s. policies have greatly strengthened all these groups and of course the u.s. backed/used them to fight it's proxy war against the ussr. but formal jihaad wasn't declared until lal masjid. since then, there is hardly a day that passes without suicide bombings, without pakistani soldiers geting killed or captured. i do not deny the u.s. responsibility, my point was that not everything can be blamed on the u.s., no matter how tempting it is to do so.

2. I agree as far as internal front is concerned, but not sure about external front, if you could kindly explain to me?

there is india, but i think the biggest threat now is that the u.s. will intervene directly. i suspect that there are also forces that would like to see pakistan dismembered. so i see pakistan facing both external and internal enemies. i think the country is in serious danger on all fronts.

If you are mentioning about India, you should be relaxed on that account as those with some vision don't foresee any war between these two countries in near future atleast, since conventional superiority held by India for a long time has already been marginalised by Pakistan on becoming a nuclear power. Both countries are well familiar with MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) and can't afford to go into war against each other. Moreover they can't have big gains in any future war, so the possibility seems remote and if Kashmir issue is resolved, the chance of war between the two countries will be zero.

ok. let me ask you - if you could force president musharraf to do what you wanted, what would you demand from him? what do you think his options are at this point?
and if the answer is for him to step down - what/who would you install in his place? surely you don't support recycling corrupt past leaders, do you?

[snakelegs]

I agree with brother Ahsan that most, if not all of the turmoil that is now in Pakistan is a direct result of America's so called "War on Terror" and its blackmailing of the Pakistani government to do the brunt of the dirty work in this war. But the people of Pakistan are self-respecting people and they do not want to be slaves of America, this is why there is so much popular opposition against the tyranny of Musharraf, who is basically an American stool pigeon.

Musharraf answers to the government of America, not the people of Pakistan, which is why he had the nerve and confidence to commit such atrocities such as the Lal Masjid massacre, the ongoing massacre and supression of the people of Baluchistan and Wazirstan, and the harrassment of the madrassahs, which are the vanguard of Islam. Whoever does not realize the nature of Musharraf's satanic campaign to destroy Islam in Pakistan is truly blind. And whoever does not realize that America is behind it is even more so.

do you think president musharraf should have chosen the bombing in to the stone age by the u.s. option?
of course there is resentment and anger at the u.s. for impinging on pakistan's sovereignty and forcing it to support their war. do you think there was a choice?
also, i assume you think it is legitimate to enforce shariah at the point of a gun?

[Talha777]

Isn't that odd. He answers to the US as he declares Marshal Law which the US is condemning.

America's condemnation is natural, because it tries to project itself as the patron of freedom and democracy. Musharraf may be America's puppet, but America is more cunning and intelligent than to lay all their eggs in one basket. Musharraf is also desperate to stay in power, as are all Pakistani politicians by the way, but his imposition of emergency rule is hurting another puppet of America - Benazir Bhutto, which America is shifting their backing for Musharraf to benazir. the reason is America thinks its long term interests in Pakistan will be better guarded in a stable civilian and fanatically secular government of the Pakistan Peoples Party led by Benazir. So the US's so called condemnation of Musharraf is not surprising at all.

do you think president musharraf should have chosen the bombing in to the stone age by the u.s. option?

Musharraf did not comply with the US's wishes out of a threat to have his country bombed to the stone age. Musharraf has no problem with bombing and killing his own people, especially the most vulnerable people of Pakistan, the pastoral and tribal dwellers of the moutainous regions of Baluchistan and Wazirstan. The fact of the matter is going to war against Pakistan is suicide for America. America can barely handle Iraq, a country of 20 million, or tribal Afghanistan for that matter, a country of some 25 million. You think America would dare to go to war against a country of 160 million with a powerful army of 500 thousand, and with nuclear weapons on top of all that?

also, i assume you think it is legitimate to enforce shariah at the point of a gun?

I think that is the government's duty to enforce the shariat, and if the government fails to do so, that is NOT a legitimate reason to overthrow the government or to rebel against it. My position should be quite clear, the government will be answerable to Allah for failing to judge by His decrees, but the decree of Allah is also to obey the government, and the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) said to obey the ameer even if he has you flogged unjustly.

[snakelegs]

Musharraf did not comply with the US's wishes out of a threat to have his country bombed to the stone age. Musharraf has no problem with bombing and killing his own people, especially the most vulnerable people of Pakistan, the pastoral and tribal dwellers of the moutainous regions of Baluchistan and Wazirstan. The fact of the matter is going to war against Pakistan is suicide for America. America can barely handle Iraq, a country of 20 million, or tribal Afghanistan for that matter, a country of some 25 million. You think America would dare to go to war against a country of 160 million with a powerful army of 500 thousand, and with nuclear weapons on top of all that?

you have more confidence in the u.s. gov't than i do. you expect it to act rationally - i do not. now the madmen are contemplating iran. so in your opinion, why did/does pres. musharraf comply with u.s. demands? do you really believe he had a choice?
it is really impossible to evaluate the situation.
as far as baluchistan and FATA and NWFP, i agree - there has been injustice from the central gov't. it also predates musharraf, but it continues and that is also part of the problem.



I think that is the government's duty to enforce the shariat, and if the government fails to do so, that is NOT a legitimate reason to overthrow the government or to rebel against it. My position should be quite clear, the government will be answerable to Allah for failing to judge by His decrees, but the decree of Allah is also to obey the government, and the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) said to obey the ameer even if he has you flogged unjustly.

thanks for your explanation. so i assume that you do not support this jihaad that has been declared against pakistan.

[Talha777]

thanks for your explanation. so i assume that you do not support this jihaad that has been declared against pakistan.

I do not support 99&#37; of the so called "jihads" which have been declared in this day and age. I only support the jihad of Maulvi Muhammad Omar, may Allah protect him if he is still alive, because he is the true ameer-ul-mumineen in afghanistan, and america invaded the country unjustly because it did not want to see a shariah compliant state exist on the face of the earth, lest the other muslim countries follow its example.

[snakelegs]

I do not support 99% of the so called "jihads" which have been declared in this day and age. I only support the jihad of Maulvi Muhammad Omar, may Allah protect him if he is still alive, because he is the true ameer-ul-mumineen in afghanistan, and america invaded the country unjustly because it did not want to see a shariah compliant state exist on the face of the earth, lest the other muslim countries follow its example.

i don't agree with the motive, but i respect your opinion. as far as mullah omar is concerned, i do not see him as my enemy and do not even know enough about him to have an opinion.
when i was speaking of the jihadis, i was thinking specifically of those who are fighting the "jihaad" that was declared against the gov't of pakistan after lal masjid. do you support them?

[Noddy]

May Allah help Pakistan in such hard times. As a Pakistani it hurts to see Pakistan in the state it's in.

I would want to share my full views but it will just attract some members to have a personal war against me.

[Talha777]

when i was speaking of the jihadis, i was thinking specifically of those who are fighting the "jihaad" that was declared against the gov't of pakistan after lal masjid. do you support them?

Absolutely not.

[snakelegs]

thanks for your answer.
peace.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
To all members: If you have an issue with a particular member, by all means pm a moderator. Our job is to help you. So please, quit derailing threads. I will now remove the argumentative posts in this section.

[KAding]

I will restrict myself to replying to this part only, as I can't type more, really tired, so please accept my inability.

1. Did anyone declare jihad against Pakistan's Govt, prior to its joining in war against terror with US? If you analyse fairly, you would agree with me that jihadi elements were never so vocal and active as are today.

Good point. So can we conclude, that while tensions within Pakistani society are nothing new, the close ties of Musharaf with the US made these tensions cross a tipping point, resulting in further escalation?

Yet, other Muslim countries that also have close ties with the US do not appear to so volatile as Pakistan. I'm thinking of Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Is that simply because of the historic ties between Pakistan and the Taliban?

[NoName55]

:sl:
Talha and noname, please chill out. If you have an issue with a particular member, by all means pm a moderator. Our job is to help you. So please, quit derailing threads. I will now remove the argumentative posts in this section.

:w:

and may I ask why you did not remove or edit his takfiri libellous post against a Muslim ruler? http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...tml#post854134

also why is he allowed picture of a grave in his sig?

why does it look like sabotage to me, when I ask for help, you people sanitize threads by removing content that no one can refer back to?

why cant you people leave it alone and just label it as unacceptable?:grumbling

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
I'll pm you a response - no need to deraill the thread again.

[Talha777]

Yet, other Muslim countries that also have close ties with the US do not appear to so volatile as Pakistan. I'm thinking of Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Is that simply because of the historic ties between Pakistan and the Taliban?

It is important to remember the difference between Pakistan and the middle eastern countries you have mentioned. There were violent uprisings in the countries which you mentioned. For example in Jordan there was "Black September", in Egypt there was the crisis following Anwar Sadat's assassination, and in Saudi Arabia there was the seizure of the Holy Kaaba by violent extremists, following of Juhaiman Utaibi and his brother who claimed to be the Imam Mahdi in 1979. And in Syria there was the bloody Hama uprising as well. But the dictatorial governments of these countries brutally crushed these rebellions. Pakistan, however, has more experience with democracy, it has a free press and now an independent and flourishing private media. Therefore, when the "war on terror" began, which resulted in Pakistan backstabbing the Taliban, killing its own people in Lal Masjid and Baluchistan, and overturning what little Islamic laws already existed in the country, the people began to rise up.

[NoName55]

It is important to remember the difference between Pakistan and the middle eastern countries you have mentioned. There were violent uprisings in the countries which you mentioned. For example in Jordan there was "Black September", in Egypt there was the crisis following Anwar Sadat's assassination, and in Saudi Arabia there was the seizure of the Holy Kaaba by violent extremists, following of Juhaiman Utaibi and his brother who claimed to be the Imam Mahdi in 1979. And in Syria there was the bloody Hama uprising as well. But the dictatorial governments of these countries brutally crushed these rebellions. Pakistan, however, has more experience with democracy, it has a free press and now an independent and flourishing private media. Therefore, when the "war on terror" began, which resulted in Pakistan backstabbing the Taliban, killing its own people in Lal Masjid and Baluchistan, and overturning what little Islamic laws already existed in the country, the people began to rise up.

deary me again!
where did you learn your history?

in Jordan there was "Black September"

Palestinians went berserk that time, Pakistani and Israeli armies sorted that one

in Saudi Arabia there was the seizure of the Holy Kaaba by violent extremists, following of Juhaiman Utaibi and his brother who claimed to be the Imam Mahdi in 1979

It was an attempt by real Muslims to liberate our holy places from clutches of foreign agents aka the clown princes of alsauds

your posts are not worth bothering with but some might believe your lies as apparently you seem to have believed the slander put out by saud family and their scholars for petro-dollars!

Pakistan backstabbing the Taliban, killing its own people in Lal Masjid and Baluchistan, and overturning what little Islamic laws already existed in the country, the people began to rise up

nosense and rubbish!

[Talha777]

It was an attempt by real Muslims to liberate our holy places from clutches of foreign agents aka the clown princes of alsauds

These so called real Muslims believed that their leader was Imam Mahdi...what do you think of that?

By the way I am not a supporter of Saudi government, they are the one who started this disease, now they are only reaping what they have sowed.

[Woodrow]

does anybody remember what the topic is? I would like to see it, if everybody can stick to topic and post verifiable facts.

[NoName55]

These so called real Muslims believed that their leader was Imam Mahdi...what do you think of that?

By the way I am not a supporter of Saudi government, they are the one who started this disease, now they are only reaping what they have sowed.

did you hear him say that? No, you are merely repeating the lie that was put out by the Saud family!

edit:

does anybody remember what the topic is? I would like to see it, if everybody can stick to topic and post verifiable facts.

oops! you will hear from me no more. though it would be nice if no one posted hearsay as fact to prove their "point" wa salam and apologies

[ahsan28]

Yet, other Muslim countries that also have close ties with the US do not appear to so volatile as Pakistan. I'm thinking of Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Is that simply because of the historic ties between Pakistan and the Taliban?

They didn't support the US for nearly a decade long war against Soviets. They didn't have to support any Taliban like Govt in their neighbouring countries for restoring peace in the region and none of the countries had to reverse their policies in the blink of an eye by joining other's wars. So Pakistan can't compared to any of the countries, mentioned in your post.

[ahsan28]

ok. let me ask you - if you could force president musharraf to do what you wanted, what would you demand from him? what do you think his options are at this point?
and if the answer is for him to step down - what/who would you install in his place? surely you don't support recycling corrupt past leaders, do you?

A tough choice perhaps and I don't consider myself worthy of deciding a country's policies. They themselves are the best judge. But at that time, he was more concerned with legitimizing himself in the eyes of the US leadership and that could have been done only, when he would have offered them unflinching loyalty, which he did, but prematurely, without assessing the repercussions and now the result is in front of us.

You have mentioned India as a threat and some others, desiring for dismemberment of Pakistan. Well anything could happen. I agree with you, the worst scenerio for Pakistan could be Indian offensive from the East and the existing Afghan Govt's jugglery along Western front. As they say everything is possible in love and war. But I would like to give you a relevant example of German legend Rommel, who also faced similar scenerio in North Africa, British to the East and Americans on the West, he contained British for a while and knocked hell out of Americans. Similarly Pakistan shouldn't be worried on its West :D The puppet Afghan Govt can't pose any real threat to Pakistan.

To be fair enough, why should India attack Pakistan at this stage, when things are moving the way, they want and if they are successful in attainment of their aims and objectives, why would they invite international community's criticism?

Its high time for the US to think as to how can they minimize their pressure on Pakistan by not demanding to that extent, which could put Pakistan's survival in jeopardy.

[waji]

:sl:

طوفانوں کی کشمکش میں کوئ زندگی تو تھی
ٹوٹے ہوے اُداس کناروں نے کیا دیا

I know that whats happening in Pakistan is terrible
whether it is from the Government or the so cold jihadis

but there are some issues which raise questions like

Pakistan is no1 in sending its arm forces as peace keeping force where UN wants
yet we get the label of Extremists or Paradise for terrorists

Pakistan is Keeping the Largest amount of Refuges in her land not for few years :uuh:for more then 20 years
yet some countries says Pakistan is not doing enough
now what happened over this time some family got into relations and
they are living in the tribal areas for years and now you wants to expel them
or wants to attack tribal areas considering them as threat :heated:
now you have woke up that they are not Pakistani

i Just want to say all posters here that if u feel bad for someone Pray for him or at least pray for yourself and please remember Pakistan in your prayers

نھ جانے کون دعاؤں میں یاد رکھتا ہے
میں ڈوبتا ھوں تو سمندر اچھال دیتا ہے


:w:

[ahsan28]

Musharraf denies rumours he is under arrest

From Times Online
November 5, 2007


President Pervez Musharraf was today forced to deny rumours that he had been placed under house arrest as protests broke out in every major Pakistani city against his declaration of emergency rule.

As police used batons and tear gas to put down lawyers’ protests in Lahore, Karachi, Rawalpindi, Peshawar and Multan, senior spokesmen issued hasty denials to rumours sweeping the country that General Musharraf had been sidelined by his second in command.

Television news networks remained off air today, except for the state-controlled Pakistan TV.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2809246.ece

[snakelegs]

A tough choice perhaps and I don't consider myself worthy of deciding a country's policies. They themselves are the best judge. But at that time, he was more concerned with legitimizing himself in the eyes of the US leadership and that could have been done only, when he would have offered them unflinching loyalty, which he did, but prematurely, without assessing the repercussions and now the result is in front of us.

You have mentioned India as a threat and some others, desiring for dismemberment of Pakistan. Well anything could happen. I agree with you, the worst scenerio for Pakistan could be Indian offensive from the East and the existing Afghan Govt's jugglery along Western front. As they say everything is possible in love and war. But I would like to give you a relevant example of German legend Rommel, who also faced similar scenerio in North Africa, British to the East and Americans on the West, he contained British for a while and knocked hell out of Americans. Similarly Pakistan shouldn't be worried on its West :D The puppet Afghan Govt can't pose any real threat to Pakistan.

To be fair enough, why should India attack Pakistan at this stage, when things are moving the way, they want and if they are successful in attainment of their aims and objectives, why would they invite international community's criticism?

Its high time for the US to think as to how can they minimize their pressure on Pakistan by not demanding to that extent, which could put Pakistan's survival in jeopardy.

i think you misunderstood me. i don't think india is the biggest threat. though i think pakistan is in danger from inside, outside and all sides.
i think u.s. is the biggest threat at the moment - i think there may be a real danger of u.s. direct intervention if things spin out of control.
i don't pretend to know what is best for pakistan - and as you said, it isn't up to us anyway. but it was obvious that things couldn't continue the way they were with an open jihaad declared against pakistan and soldiers getting killed almost daily.
all we can do is hope for a better future for paksitan and its people.

[snakelegs]

Musharraf denies rumours he is under arrest

From Times Online
November 5, 2007


President Pervez Musharraf was today forced to deny rumours that he had been placed under house arrest as protests broke out in every major Pakistani city against his declaration of emergency rule.

As police used batons and tear gas to put down lawyers’ protests in Lahore, Karachi, Rawalpindi, Peshawar and Multan, senior spokesmen issued hasty denials to rumours sweeping the country that General Musharraf had been sidelined by his second in command.

Television news networks remained off air today, except for the state-controlled Pakistan TV.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2809246.ece

???!!!
i imagine, with things happening so fast, there will be a lot of rumours.
from the article:
"In response the beleaguered Government of General Musharraf tonight promised that parliamentary elections will be held on schedule in Pakistan in January despite the imposition of emergency rule"
this is hard to imagine.

[snakelegs]

re: the internet
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/200...ed-on-the-web/
are our members in pakistan having any trouble accessing the internet?

[ahsan28]

i think u.s. is the biggest threat at the moment - i think there may be a real danger of u.s. direct intervention if things spin out of control.

Well, you may be correct, but the US will critically evaluate the feasibility of intervening militarily against the perceived reactions, not only in pakistan, but Afghanistan also, where Talibans will find more time to reorganise themselves and carry out attacks on US and NATO, not to mention Iranian interference to weaken US by fighting proxy war in the tribal areas of Pakistan. Please remember, when the interests are common and when the survival is at stake, religious disputation is bound to take back seat.

The US knows more than anyone else :D

[snakelegs]

(Asma Jahangir is a leading Pakistani lawyer, head of the Pakistan Commission for Human Rights, and a special rapporteur of the UN Commission on Human Rights on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions. She was heavily involved in the movement for the restoration of Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry earlier this year. Ms Jahangir sent this message from her home in Lahore.)

Asma Jahangir: Musharraf has lost his marbles and is targeting progressives

The situation in the country is uncertain. There is a strong crackdown on the press and lawyers. A majority of the judges of the Supreme Court and four judges of the High Court have not taken their oaths. The Chief Justice is under house arrest (unofficially). The president of the Supreme Court Bar, Aitzaz Ahsan, and two former presidents, Mr Muneer Malik and Tariq Mahmood have been imprisoned for one month under the preventive detention laws.

The president of the Lahore High Court, Ahsan Bhoon, and former bar leader Ali Ahmed Kurd have also been arrested. The police are looking for six other lawyers, including the president of the Peshawar and Karachi bar. The president of the Lahore bar is also in hiding. Scores of political leaders havebeen arrested.

Yesterday, I was put under house arrest for 90 days and I was given a copy of my detention order.

Ironically the President (who has lost his marbles) said that he had to clamp down on the press and the judiciary to curb terrorism. Those he has arrested are progressive, secular- minded people while the terrorists are offered negotiations and ceasefires.

Lawyers and civil society will challenge the government and the scene is likely to get uglier. We want friends of Pakistan to urge the United States administration to stop all support of the unstable dictator, as his lust for power is bringing the country close to a worse form of civil strife. It is now time for the international community to insist on preventive measures, otherwise cleaning up the mess may take decades.

There are already several hundred internally displaced persons and the space for civil society has hopelessly shrunk.

We believe that Musharraf has to be taken out of the equation and a government of national reconciliation put in place. It must be backed by the military. Short of this there are no realistic solutions – although there are no guarantees that this would work.

http://comment.independent.co.uk/com...cle3129653.ece

[Keltoi]

Why should it surprise anyone that Mushareff isn't ready to give up power? He didn't exactly take control with a popular mandate.

What concerns the U.S. and many other countries is the nuclear question. If Mushareff loses power due to a coup or popular uprising, who has control of the nuclear triggers and codes? There are several frightening scenarios that could occur, not the least of which being fundamentalists getting their hands on them.

[Idris]

What concerns the U.S. and many other countries is the nuclear question. If Mushareff loses power due to a coup or popular uprising, who has control of the nuclear triggers and codes? There are several frightening scenarios that could occur, not the least of which being fundamentalists getting their hands on them.

I sense that you watch a great deal of movies. No-one will come to power in "Pakistan" with out the backing of the US. Ayways who is this Bhutto women? She turns up and everything and everyone turn barmy. It's a Pantomime.

[KAding]

I sense that you watch a great deal of movies. No-one will come to power in "Pakistan" with out the backing of the US. Ayways who is this Bhutto women? She turns up and everything and everyone turn barmy. It's a Pantomime.

Musharraf didn't have the support from the US until late 2001, right?

Why do you think rulers of Pakistan need the backing of the US? In what way exactly? Because the governments need US money? Surely, any government being backed by the US is viewed as a negative by most Pakistanis?

[ahsan28]

Why do you think rulers of Pakistan need the backing of the US? In what way exactly? Because the governments need US money? Surely, any government being backed by the US is viewed as a negative by most Pakistanis?

Apart from financial support on account of the on-going war, the poor country wants credible guarantee from the US that its enemy on the East doesn't make a try to get undue advantage of the internal crisis and mass deployment of 100,000 soldiers along Western front, which may prompt India to undertake some misadventure. Although chances are less, yet, can't be ruled out.

I think majority of Pakistanis doesn't like US and its policies, concerning the Muslims in particular.

[snakelegs]

i don't know if imran khan is to be taken seriously as a politician or not. but today i heard him say something i thought was interesting. right now it is not so much elections that should be the main demand, but the re-instatement of the chief justice and all the other judges he sacked
(= restoration of independent judiciary).
any comments?

[Keltoi]

i don't know if imran khan is to be taken seriously as a politician or not. but today i heard him say something i thought was interesting. right now it is not so much elections that should be the main demand, but the re-instatement of the chief justice and all the other judges he sacked
(= restoration of independent judiciary).
any comments?

Well, as the founders of the U.S. Constitution knew quite well, an independent judiciary is vital for clear separation of power. That would be the wisest move if Mushareff is serious about allowing the democratic process to continue.

[Keltoi]

I sense that you watch a great deal of movies. No-one will come to power in "Pakistan" with out the backing of the US. Ayways who is this Bhutto women? She turns up and everything and everyone turn barmy. It's a Pantomime.

No offense, but I "sense" that you read too many conspiracies. The U.S. is hardly in a position to control who comes into power in Pakistan. The U.S. does have leverage with Mushareff due to the balance of power with India, but Mushareff is his own man. It's politics. Mushareff knows quite well that the U.S. will turn on him in a second if a better option were to appear.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
All I can say is musharraf is quite clearly a dictator. He got into power via military coup and recently cheated the election - that's why it was sent to the courts for them to decide.

Musharraf new this and thought: ''Oh bugger. I know, let's call a state of emergency (keep my in power for some more months) AND let's fire off the judges and beat up my opposition.'' This is what is currently being done in pakistan right now.

As for Bhutto - she was pakistan's previous president. After stealing large sums of money she ran into exhile.

The reason why alot of pakistanis left and came to the west was because pakistani government kept getting more corrupt each and every day (still is). Prime example: you can pay the cops off.

[Talha777]

The biggest threat to Pakistan is the western cultural invasion. I just found out that GEO TV is going to be airing the American film "The Ten Commandments", a movie which openly violates Pakistani law by portraying the beloved Prophet Moses (alaihi salam) in a highly deragatory manner (slanderously attributing to him an affair with an Egyptian woman).

This would have been intolerable only a decade ago, but slowly the religious heritage of Pakistan, a country found in the name of Islam, became independent on Lailatul Qadr (the most holy night), is being denied and destroyed. Musharraf's "Enlightened Moderation" is an American conspiracy to destroy the religious heritage of the nation.

[snakelegs]

i think it's pretty unlikely that president musharraf will re-instate the chief justice along with the other judges that he sacked - after all, they were the biggest challenge to his continuiing to rule in uniform. he may even end the "emergency" as soon as his new court gives him the approval.
as for bhutto, i think recycling corrupt leaders is pretty pathetic, but i suspect the deal between her and the general is still on, behind the scenes.
the impression i get is that to the average pakistani, it matters little because his life is unlikely to improve either way.
some 30,000 troops have been withdrawn from the indian border for use....?

in the north it looks like there is serious danger of some areas breaking off - already in several towns the pakistani flag has come down and the talibaan flag (?) has gone up.
here is an editorial on this subject:

Editorial: The challenge of Swat

Warlord Fazlullah has taken another town in Swat, and the local police have surrendered in routine, its personnel promising never to fight against him again. After Matta and Khawazakhela, Madian has fallen, and Fazlullah’s FM radio is blaring news of yet another victory against the state of Pakistan. Fazlullah says all he wants is Shariat, but the real truth is there for everyone to see. He has annexed territory from the state of Pakistan and will set up a government there on the pattern that Baitullah Mehsud has established in South Waziristan.

The composition of the so-called Taliban fighting as Fazlullah’s troops in Swat tells us who is driving the campaign for Shariat. Depressed, and with their morale down, the inhabitants of Swat report that most of the militants speak a dialect different from theirs. Some have identified them as belonging to South Waziristan. Yet there are some among the outsiders who don’t speak at all and keep their faces covered under masks; they are supposed to be the “foreigners” sent in by Baitullah Mehsud as help from Al Qaeda. There is no longer any doubt about whom the warlord of South Waziristan, Baitullah Mehsud, is working for. The presence of foreigners in Swat tells us the story that we are not willing to acknowledge.

If Swat is going to follow the model of South Waziristan, then let us take a look at the kind of government Baitullah has set up there. From a population not used to paying their bills for state utilities, and used to no taxation system, Baitullah has extracted taxes with which he can run his mini-state. What went under the name of smuggling is now legalised because everyone pays his taxes. With tax on trade of all sorts and the vehicle “token system”, the warlord has enough revenue to finance his 30,000 strong army and even send it into all parts of the Tribal Areas to help other Taliban elements. He also has a contingent of suicide-bombers whose outreach now includes the entire length and breadth of Pakistan. Salaries paid to the ranks and officers range from Rs 10,000 to Rs 25,000 per month.

The case of Fazlullah, it is said, was spoiled by the MMA government in the NWFP. Since Swat fell in the provincially administered tribal area, any military action there had to be “requisitioned” by Peshawar, which refrained from doing so. When it called in the paramilitaries it put conditions on their action that reduced the deployment to a show of force rather than an application of force. But when this force was despatched and attacked by suicide-bombers, the jirgas were made to actually demand the ouster of the state troops. It is only after the exit of the MMA government that the nation has found out that the “real” jirga of Swat actually wanted the government to act with vigour and determination. The caretaker government in Peshawar is now taking the right course but the situation in Swat is a much bigger challenge than Islamabad realises.

The war in the Tribal Areas could actually be the battle for Pakistan itself. It could be a battle against the creation of an Al Qaeda state within Pakistan. Having failed to create one in Somalia, Al Qaeda is now seeking to finally possess the territory it has been holding since 2001 when its hordes entered Pakistan to touch base with the warriors it had trained in the camps of Afghanistan. Already, terrorists planning to attack places in Europe are being trained in South Waziristan. The group of youths arrested by Germany recently with plans to attack American troops stationed there have revealed that they had travelled to Pakistan for training. In the case of Somalia, an invasion was staged from Ethiopia to prevent Al Qaeda to set up its base there. Therefore the same kind of situation could be created here if Islamabad does not taker resolute action.

The solution doesn’t lie in imposing an Emergency and taking away people’s rights. In fact the state of Emergency is going to be the biggest hurdle in tackling the Al Qaeda challenge. There is no doubt that this is the job for the Pakistan army, but if the government is faced with near-insurgency in the rest of the country with people ranged behind their political parties to oppose President General Musharraf, the war against Al Qaeda is all but lost. Those who are now ready to come out on the streets to fight for their rights will hardly be in a mood to even allow the idea of war against Al Qaeda to cross their minds. In fact, given the present situation, Al Qaeda is one of the many elements wanting the Musharraf establishment to go. That is why it is high time to announce elections in January 2008 and hand over the government to agreed caretakers who can let the army take the needed action against Al Qaeda.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-11-2007_pg3_1

[wilberhum]

The biggest threat to Pakistan is the western cultural invasion. I just found out that GEO TV is going to be airing the American film "The Ten Commandments", a movie which openly violates Pakistani law by portraying the beloved Prophet Moses (alaihi salam) in a highly deragatory manner (slanderously attributing to him an affair with an Egyptian woman).

This would have been intolerable only a decade ago, but slowly the religious heritage of Pakistan, a country found in the name of Islam, became independent on Lailatul Qadr (the most holy night), is being denied and destroyed. Musharraf's "Enlightened Moderation" is an American conspiracy to destroy the religious heritage of the nation.

Maybe it is just me, but I think people blowing themselves up to murder others is a bigger problem than Western Cultural. :?

[ahsan28]

i don't know if imran khan is to be taken seriously as a politician or not. but today i heard him say something i thought was interesting. right now it is not so much elections that should be the main demand, but the re-instatement of the chief justice and all the other judges he sacked
(= restoration of independent judiciary).
any comments?

The guy doesn't have any practical experience except that he was a famous cricketer and won the world cup for Pakistan :D People give him due importance, when he talks on cricket issues only.

The most sensitive issue for Pakistan is to deal with internal situation, which seems out of control. The tribals areas are posing biggest challange to the writ of the Govt and if not tackled prudently, the violence is bound to spread all over the country. Already Talibans are in control of many areas, where Govt is almost non-existent.

[ahsan28]

the inhabitants of Swat report that most of the militants speak a dialect different from theirs. Some have identified them as belonging to South Waziristan. Yet there are some among the outsiders who don’t speak at all and keep their faces covered under masks;

The poor inhabitants forgot to tell that whenever those foreigners remove face masks, they have blue/green eyes and long hairs falling on their shoulders.

[snakelegs]

The guy doesn't have any practical experience except that he was a famous cricketer and won the world cup for Pakistan :D People give him due importance, when he talks on cricket issues only.

The most sensitive issue for Pakistan is to deal with internal situation, which seems out of control. The tribals areas are posing biggest challange to the writ of the Govt and if not tackled prudently, the violence is bound to spread all over the country. Already Talibans are in control of many areas, where Govt is almost non-existent.

yes, i agree completely - this is the biggest threat of all. it remains to be seen what will be done on this front. these people are a serious danger to pakistan - they are gradually spreading out of the northern areas. if it takes a state of emergency to accomplish this, i would be all for it.

[snakelegs]

The poor inhabitants forgot to tell that whenever those foreigners remove face masks, they have blue/green eyes and long hairs falling on their shoulders.

point? do you think they are provacateurs?

[snakelegs]

The biggest threat to Pakistan is the western cultural invasion. I just found out that GEO TV is going to be airing the American film "The Ten Commandments", a movie which openly violates Pakistani law by portraying the beloved Prophet Moses (alaihi salam) in a highly deragatory manner (slanderously attributing to him an affair with an Egyptian woman).

This would have been intolerable only a decade ago, but slowly the religious heritage of Pakistan, a country found in the name of Islam, became independent on Lailatul Qadr (the most holy night), is being denied and destroyed. Musharraf's "Enlightened Moderation" is an American conspiracy to destroy the religious heritage of the nation.

i don't really think the religious heritage of the nation is under threat.
president musharraf has allowed a proliferation of private media channels in pakistan, which brings the opportunity to watch all kinds of programming. altho pakistanis have been watching junky hindi films for years!
as for "the ten commandments", i think islam is stronger than any crappy movie, don't you?

[ahsan28]

point? do you think they are provacateurs?

Trained fighters, who know how to fight in low intensity environment.

[snakelegs]

Trained fighters, who know how to fight in low intensity environment.

you don't think pashtuns know better than anyone how to fight in this type of environment?!!! :D

[ahsan28]

you don't think pashtuns know better than anyone how to fight in this type of environment?!!! :D

They are, but certainly not capable to sustain 18 hours long close quarter fights.

[snakelegs]

so who is? what are you hinting at? spell it out for me - i'm being dense.

[ahsan28]

so who is? what are you hinting at? spell it out for me - i'm being dense.

Hey I may be wrong, so please don't depend on my assessment, you are more intelligent than me :D

[snakelegs]

don't be silly.

[waji]

:sl:

^^ i don't agree with you i think Tribal people know
how to defend their area
yes u can have an edge over air but on ground the will fight till the last blood

:w: