Why Blame Islam? Individuals, Not Religions, Carry Out Violent Acts

[Uthman]

Jul 29, 2007
A Contribution By MA Qazi

Islam is a religion of peace, accepted and practiced by 1.5 billion people worldwide. It is the fastest-growing religion in the world, and if it was as some critics claim, why would people from all walks of life from around the world keep embracing Islam? Where is the sword now?

In Islam, a person has the right to defend himself, his family, his country or his neighbor(s), which justifies the resistance being offered by the people of Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Iraq, Kashmir and Palestine, to attacks on their soils by the so-called liberators, who are actually the occupiers.

The Holy Qur’an clearly states that if a person saves one life, it’s as if he saved humanity, and if a person kills one human being, it’s as if he killed humanity.

What is happening in the enslaved Muslim countries is a natural reaction to occupation, bombings, killing and terrorizing of innocent civilians (children, old men and women), rapes, in addition to looting of resources, national antiques and artifacts, above all destruction of property by the occupiers.

Terror Breeds Terror

We assure those who bash Islam that if there was no occupation in this world by foreign invaders, there would be no resistance – the so-called terror. We would like those who criticize Islam to explain the following acts committed by the Christians on Jews, other Christians and Muslims alike, throughout history:

• Hundreds of thousands of Muslim men, women and children were killed by the crusaders, who were Christians.

• The bloody inquisition of Jews and Muslims from Spain was spearheaded by Queen Isabella, a Christian.

• Millions of people were killed by the European and American Christians during the two World Wars.

• Atrocities were committed against millions of Jews and Christians by Adolph Hitler, a professed Christian.

• Hundreds of thousands of Christians were killed by the Irish Christians, including the British and the IRA, both Catholics and Protestants, during the past few centuries. Why are they not labeled as “Christian Terrorists?” Both of them believe in Jesus Christ, who told them to turn the other cheek, and both of them believe in the same Lord, Who commanded that “Thou shall not kill.” Period.

• Timothy McVeigh, who bombed the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, was a Catholic. Are all Catholics terrorists?

• There have been countless bombings, killings, rapes and lynchings of both American Indians and black slaves (Afro-Americans) during the past 200 years in the United States.

Will those filled with hate for Islam blame Christianity for the these inhuman acts by Christians in various parts of the world? If not, then why are they blaming the religion of Islam for what is a natural reaction to occupation of Muslim countries by foreign invaders?

Most importantly, these folks should know that the three great Abrahamic religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam – have one common basis, and that is one God Almighty.

“All men (and women) are created equal, and we all are one nation under Almighty God,” is a statement according to the Holy Qur’an and is very well elucidated in the U.S. Constitution.

Lastly, as a brother in humanity, we recommend those filled with hate get an education in the history of Islam and Muslims, before they dare to write nasty letters full of personal, ingrained hatred and vendetta.

We would be pleased to provide anyone with free copies of the Holy Qur’an and Islamic literature in English that would help them to understand the truth about Islam and Muslims that will rid of hate from their systems, God willing.

May God Almighty show you the light, Amen.

If you would like more information on Islam or a copy of the Holy Quran, please contact reception@jihadunspun.com and we will facilitate your request free of charge.

http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre...list=/home.php

[Keltoi]

Whether fair or not, a religion is often judged by the actions of its followers. Just as Christianity was harmed by the un-Christian actions during the Crusades, the image of Islam is being harmed by the actions of some of its followers. While most rational individuals understand that Islam is not what we see on TV every day, that can't help but be overshadowed by the events occurring in the world, often times under the umbrella of "Islam".

[guyabano]

I agree on that. Christianity is also always named, when it comes to the cruisades. So I guess, Islam has now to face the same problems, even I'm sure, lot of muslims are rather peaceful.

[wilberhum]

Hundreds of thousands of Muslim men, women and children were killed by the crusaders, who were Christians.

That's true, and they did it for god. And I blame Christianity.
There are those that fly airplanes into buildings for god, and I don't blame Christianity.
They found something in there religion that made them feel there actions were justified.

which justifies the resistance being offered by the people of Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Iraq, Kashmir and Palestine, to attacks on their soils by the so-called liberators, who are actually the occupiers.

Are you talking about the kind of resistance that justifies the killing of school children in Chechnya?
Or the kind of resistance in Iraq that requires the torturing your neighbor before shooting him in the back of the head and dumping him on the street?
The stile of resistance where a Palestinian walks into an Israeli bakery and blows himself up?
How about the Afghanistan resistance where they are holding and killing people that have nothing to do with the situation. Kashmir resistance? It is just another example of Muslims killing non-Muslims to overthrow the government and install an Islamic State. It is not unique; we see that in every corner of the world.

Where does all this inspiration come from?

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[The_Prince]

That's true, and they did it for god. And I blame Christianity.
There are those that fly airplanes into buildings for god, and I don't blame Christianity.
They found something in there religion that made them feel there actions were justified.


Are you talking about the kind of resistance that justifies the killing of school children in Chechnya?
Or the kind of resistance in Iraq that requires the torturing your neighbor before shooting him in the back of the head and dumping him on the street?
The stile of resistance where a Palestinian walks into an Israeli bakery and blows himself up?
How about the Afghanistan resistance where they are holding and killing people that have nothing to do with the situation. Kashmir resistance? It is just another example of Muslims killing non-Muslims to overthrow the government and install an Islamic State. It is not unique; we see that in every corner of the world.

Where does all this inspiration come from?

you and the beslan incident in russia, are you always going to bring that up like it is the norm that chechen millitants do? that was once in a blue moon incident and you keep acting like they always do it. but how bad for you recent evidence is comming out that it was infact the russian soldiers who ignited the bombs and the massive death tool in the school not the chechen rebels, what an idiot you will like and all other anti-Islamics when evidence shows that hey it was the russian soldiers who were actually responsible for their stupid gung-ho tactic that left many many kids dead!

and since you always in love with bringing beslan up, what about all the chechen kids? and women? there are tons of videos showing the atrocities done against the chechens, why dont you bring that up, why always beslan? it seems to these westerners one attack against them becomes an icnonic moment in history that has to be repeated a million times as if to show its the only thing that happened and that they are the only victims ignoring the many many many many many many many many atrocities they have commited against the other side which pushed the other side to go to such extremes as was the case with these "few" chechen rebels.

[Cognescenti]

"Beslan incident"?????:(

Are you kidding me? You make it sound like a couple of guys arguing about a traffic accident. There was nothing "incidental" about the Beslan mass murders. It was absolutely bestial, morally indefensible act of terror that set new standards of "communal" socioapthy.

Any justification you offer is just going to make you look bad. Best to condemn it unreservedly and move on.

[Faffy.K]

"Beslan incident"?????:(

Are you kidding me? You make it sound like a couple of guys arguing about a traffic accident. There was nothing "incidental" about the Beslan mass murders. It was absolutely bestial, morally indefensible act of terror that set new standards of "communal" socioapthy.

Any justification you offer is just going to make you look bad. Best to condemn it unreservedly and move on.

they same way the beslan incident touched many peoples hearts and upset many people, this is the exact same way muslims being killed and havin their homes taken from them and being afraid to step outside their house etc. touches the heart of many muslims. he wasn't providing a justification for the beslan incident, he was basically asking why one incident (no matter how large it may be) is enormously talked about 2day.. whilst the pain of what others are being put through is ignored.

[wilberhum]

The_Prince

what an idiot you will like and all other anti-Islamics

Right, I’m anti-Islamics because I don’t find ever violent act any Muslim does is OK.

evidence shows that hey it was the russian soldiers who were actually responsible for their stupid gung-ho tactic that left many many kids dead!

The fact that the some of soldier’s actions were faulty does not excuse the situation the terrorists created. The terrorists, excuse me, resistance fighters, put the children at risk and they died. Who is responsible is clear.

what about all the chechen kids? and women? there are tons of videos showing the atrocities done against the chechens

I have never denied any of it. I don’t defend all that Russia has done. Do you want a list of everything I think has been done wrong in the last 100 years? The article is kind of an “Oh poor me, I have never done anything wrong and everyone is against me”. I’m not buying it. Things have been done wrong and I mentioned a few.

But you only complain about Beslan. Am I to assume that you think I’m only unjustified mentioning Beslan?

By the way Cognescenti summed it up quite will. You should reread his reply.

[wilberhum]

they same way the beslan incident touched many peoples hearts and upset many people, this is the exact same way muslims being killed and havin their homes taken from them and being afraid to step outside their house etc. touches the heart of many muslims. he wasn't providing a justification for the beslan incident, he was basically asking why one incident (no matter how large it may be) is enormously talked about 2day.. whilst the pain of what others are being put through is ignored.

Has there any conflict in the last 60 years where Muslims equate everything to Israel? Israel seams to be justification for any thing and every thing.

whilst the pain of what others are being put through is ignored.

I would hardly condider any of the "Pain" you talk about is being ignored.

[Pygoscelis]

Religions OUGHT to be held accountable, yes. Same with ideologies.

It is the individuals who do the acts, but it more often than not the religions that are used to justify them, both to the individuals themselves and to the world at large.

When people do something horrible they need some form of jusitification for it. THey need to feel it is the right and just thing to do (or at least in their interest). Religion too often provides this to them.

And holy books written in such a way to be so easily interpreted to condone or even prescribe the acts should be held accountable for being the enabling documents that they are.

[KAding]

I completely agree with Pygoscelis.

I don't understand the confusion about this. If an act is committed in name of an ideology and approved by that ideology, then that ideology is also to blame.

[Uthman]

No. Let there be no pretence, we are all talking about Islam here.

Islam cannot be held accountable for the actions of any individuals. It is not written so that it can be easily interpreted to suit anybody's line of thinking.

Individuals take verses out of context. That's what they use to justify their acts. Verses taken out of context. So they are accountable. Not the religion. It is not even written in a way that could justify what terrorists do.

[Cognescenti]

No. Let there be no pretence, we are all talking about Islam here.

Islam cannot be held accountable for the actions of any individuals. It is not written so that it can be easily interpreted to suit anybody's line of thinking.

Individuals take verses out of context. That's what they use to justify their acts. Verses taken out of context. So they are accountable. Not the religion. It is not even written in a way that could justify what terrorists do.

And if religious figures held in esteem by believers advocate violence?

[Bittersteel]

Why Blame Islam? Individuals, Not Religions, Carry Out Violent Acts

Muslims do these actions in the name of Islam.so naturally Non-Muslims will be wary of Islam and will have negative views towards the religion.you can't have expected them(Non-Muslims) to have learned the Quran and tafsir by heart.

[Amadeus85]

Muslims do these actions in the name of Islam.so naturally Non-Muslims will be wary of Islam and will have negative views towards the religion.you can't have expected them(Non-Muslims) to have learned the Quran and tafsir by heart.

Yes its very true.

[wilberhum]

I completely agree with Pygoscelis.

I don't understand the confusion about this. If an act is committed in name of an ideology and approved by that ideology, then that ideology is also to blame.

Ditto

[جوري]

How true--I feel the same way about Atheism after several leaders and regimes have massacred en masse-- from Enver Hoxa to Mao Xedong, to Stallin to pol pot just to name a few, each with millions of death under his belt..

every time I see something unscrupulously immoral.. I think Atheism.. just recently with the tainted food and bogus drugs, even toothpaste containing toxic substance, which can cause kidney failure, paralysis and death, has been yanked from sale in North and South America, Europe and Asia in recent weeks all coming from Godless China-- I think to myself.. yup, that is very in concert with what Godless louses would do.. murder every which way for a profit or whatever worldly reason.. what is to hold them back? For once I agree with you wilbur.. 'tis indeed the ideology that is to blame... Let's tote up the count of killed, maimed and murdered under atheistical regimes....Let's see who wins by a milestone please...

[wilberhum]

No. Let there be no pretence, we are all talking about Islam here.
Islam cannot be held accountable for the actions of any individuals.

Well Cognescenti, KAding, myself and many others disagree.

It is not written so that it can be easily interpreted to suit anybody's line of thinking.
Individuals take verses out of context. That's what they use to justify their acts. Verses taken out of context.

Don’t you see your own contradiction? Individuals take verses out of context yet you say It is not written so that it can be easily interpreted to suit anybody's line of thinking.
I think your argument fully supports our statements.

So they are accountable. Not the religion.

I think both bare some responsibility. It seams I am not alone in that thinking.

It is not even written in a way that could justify what terrorists do.

I think the terrorists would totally disagree with you. I think most believe they are serving god.

[Keltoi]

The important factor here is religious leaders. Take the Crusades for example. The lords, knights, and men-at-arms who participated in that fight did not wake up one morning thinking "You know, I think God wants me to join an army to take over Jerusalem by any means necessary." It took religious authority, meaning the Pope, to convince them of this necessity in the name of God.

Islam may not have a central authority figure, but it does have many religious leaders, some of who preach violence on a daily basis. Now I understand the vast majority of neighborhood mosques are places of peaceful worship and community outreach, just as Christian churches, but there are obviously many Islamic leaders who preach the opposite. Some Muslims are taken in by these religious leaders, who tell them what is justified in the name of God. I don't believe the average Muslim is sitting around reading the Qu'ran when it suddenly dawns on them that they should kill people in the name of God. Leadership is the problem, and who these people look to as authorities on Islamic practice.

[Cognescenti]

How true--I feel the same way about Atheism after several leaders and regimes have massacred en masse-- from Enver Hoxa to Mao Xedong, to Stallin to pol pot just to name a few, each with millions of death under his belt..

every time I see something unscrupulously immoral.. I think Atheism.. just recently with the tainted food and bogus drugs, even toothpaste containing toxic substance, which can cause kidney failure, paralysis and death, has been yanked from sale in North and South America, Europe and Asia in recent weeks all coming from Godless China-- I think to myself.. yup, that is very in concert with what Godless louses would do.. murder every which way for a profit or whatever worldly reason.. what is to hold them back? For once I agree with you wilbur.. 'tis indeed the ideology that is to blame... Let's tote up the count of killed, maimed and murdered under atheistical regimes....Let's see who wins by a milestone please...

That's why we voted for Ronald Reagan twice. :D

[wilberhum]

Did anyone else notice that www.jihadunspun.com is just another pro Al-Qaeda propaganda rage that supports terrorism in the name of Jihad?

[KAding]

The problem here of course is: "What is Islam?"

There is no one opinion on this. So how can we non-Muslims determine what 'Islam' is? To us I suppose, Islam is what Muslims believe it is. Islam is what Muslims make of it in this world. That includes all the fringe groups. That includes Shiite's, that includes Sufi Islam. That includes Osama Bin Laden, the Turkish PM Erdogan, some guy in Indonesia and people from this forum such as, say, Woodrow and islamirama. If there is a group of Muslims who think Islam allows them to blow up kaffirs/munafiqs in name of Islam during war then that is one of the representations of Islam. Considering all the terrorism in the Muslim world in the name of Islam, I will put that under the header "Islam-related terrorism".

Sure, I could go form my own opinion on what Islam says about terrorism, and I try to. But in the end, how valuable would my opinion as a non-Muslim casual observer be? Is it more valid than the opinion of a suicide bomber in Iraq? I don't think so.

IMHO anyway.

[جوري]

That's why we voted for Ronald Reagan twice. :D

He was a good actor.. that is really all you need to run a country- who knows maybe Clint Eastwood will run for office next? if we can get him to speak beyond an audible whisper and administer proper treatment regimen to protract his life on weekly basis....:coolious:

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
People blame ideologies and/or religion whenever it suits them. I personally think it is very ignorant to say that because certain followers of a certain idea (or religion) commit a crime, that that particular idea/religion is put on trial.

People have commited a lot of racial crimes in the name of their religion throughout history. However, by condeming the religion for leading those members to commit said crimes would assume that the fault lies within the religion as opposed to an individuals' understanding, which is in most cases far from the truth.

If a person reads a violent book and goes out and demonically mauls someone to death as a result, I would point my finger at the dude (or dudette for all you militant feminists out there who may want to physically harm me because I was born with a Y chromosome and not an X and therefore assume that men are superior to women....) who commited the crime, not the author or the book he/she/it (what?!) read it from.

In the real world, religions do not go to court, the followers who commit crimes in the name of their religion, do. It puzzles me that there are 5 billion people on this planet and only a handfull (you can actually count them on both your hands) of them realise this. Actually, having said that, it doesn't.

[wilberhum]

In the real world, religions do not go to court,

Lets see, if the religion was found guilty, how do you send it to prision? :-\

[Keltoi]

:sl:
People blame ideologies and/or religion whenever it suits them. I personally think it is very ignorant to say that because certain followers of a certain idea (or religion) commit a crime, that that particular idea/religion is put on trial.

People have commited a lot of racial crimes in the name of their religion throughout history. However, by condeming the religion for leading those members to commit said crimes would assume that the fault lies within the religion as opposed to an individuals' understanding, which is in most cases far from the truth.

If a person reads a violent book and goes out and demonically mauls someone to death as a result, I would point my finger at the dude (or dudette for all you militant feminists out there who may want to physically harm me because I was born with a Y chromosome and not an X and therefore assume that men are superior to women....) who commited the crime, not the author or the book he/she/it (what?!) read it from.

In the real world, religions do not go to court, the followers who commit crimes in the name of their religion, do. It puzzles me that there are 5 billion people on this planet and only a handfull (you can actually count them on both your hands) of them realise this. Actually, having said that, it doesn't.

I think most people who have commented have pointed out that a religion itself isn't to blame for the actions of its followers. This is more about perception. As the Crusades were brought up, do you suppose the Muslim survivors of the Crusader conquest of Jerusalem were saying.."Darn those misguided followers of an unnamed religion," or do you suppose they were saying "Darn those Christians?" It is about perception, as the actions of a religions' followers directly impact how others view that particular faith. It isn't fair but it is reality.

I don't blame Islam, I blame a certain population of Muslims. Perhaps I wouldn't even call them Muslims if they didn't actively and aggressively promote their brand of Islam. It also must be pointed out that many of the same people who criticize non-Muslims for mixing Islam with terrorism are some of the same people who repeatedly come to the defense of these same people as Muslims.

[Cognescenti]

Religions don't kill people, people do.:smile:

Take the case of of the the Kmer Rouge Killing Fields or the Cultural Revolution or Auswitz. None of these were religiously motivated, of course, but they are examples where ideologies (secular religions) promoted terrible crimes. That doesn't excuse the actions of individuals but neither can the proponents of the ideology itself be excused.

My point is meant in the abstraction only to illustrate that bad things can happen when people uncritically accept what they are told.

[Uthman]

Greetings,

And if religious figures held in esteem by believers advocate violence?

Then these religious figures would also be at fault.

Don’t you see your own contradiction? Individuals take verses out of context yet you say It is not written so that it can be easily interpreted to suit anybody's line of thinking.
I think your argument fully supports our statements.

No contradiction, Wilber. :)

Taking a verse out of context is completely different from interpreting a verse. Perhaps an example would be appropriate.

Misquoted Verse #6

And slay them wherever ye catch them.." (2:191)

A classic and popular example of what Muslim scholars, like Dr. Jamal Badawi, call a ‘cut and paste’ approach. Everything becomes so much easier for the Anti-Islamists when they remove the context. The solution for the Muslim is to simply replace the verse in its context:

2:190-194 Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there;but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear (the punishment of) God, and know that God is with those who restrain themselves.

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=414&section=wel_islam&s ubsection=Misconceptions#7


Regards

[wilberhum]

No contradiction, Wilber

Yes contradiction, Osman. :giggling:

If I can take it "Out of Context" to justify something, I see no difference between that and misinterpreted.

But then maybe that's just me. Or is it? One Muslim says in means AAA and another Muslim says it means ZZZ. Who am I to say who is right and who is wrong? :hiding: :hiding:

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

Lets see, if the religion was found guilty, how do you send it to prision? :-\

That is exactly my point; you can blame religion all you want but that is not the thing that goes on trial. Hence, blaming religion for the crime is pointless. I do hope you can see this.

I think most people who have commented have pointed out that a religion itself isn't to blame for the actions of its followers. This is more about perception. As the Crusades were brought up, do you suppose the Muslim survivors of the Crusader conquest of Jerusalem were saying.."Darn those misguided followers of an unnamed religion," or do you suppose they were saying "Darn those Christians?"

Of course they blamed the religion. My point is, doing so is wrong and ignorant; telling people it is effectively the opposite is just as bad - which is what several members are doing so now, hence the reason for my post.

It is about perception, as the actions of a religions' followers directly impact how others view that particular faith. It isn't fair but it is reality.

Indeed, it is completely about perception. Something that I know all too well of.

I don't blame Islam, I blame a certain population of Muslims. Perhaps I wouldn't even call them Muslims if they didn't actively and aggressively promote their brand of Islam.

I am completely fine with that form of thought.

It also must be pointed out that many of the same people who criticize non-Muslims for mixing Islam with terrorism are some of the same people who repeatedly come to the defense of these same people as Muslims.

I too have seen this occur, many times.

Religions don't kill people, people do.

''I seen it in a documentary on BBC2''

Take the case of of the the Kmer Rouge Killing Fields or the Cultural Revolution or Auswitz. None of these were religiously motivated, of course, but they are examples where ideologies (secular religions) promoted terrible crimes. That doesn't excuse the actions of individuals but neither can the proponents of the ideology itself be excused.

Of course. However religion and the Auszwitz are two different fruits.

My point is meant in the abstraction only to illustrate that bad things can happen when people uncritically accept what they are told.

Indeed. But, not everything we are told to do leads to bad things. Sometimes we do get crazy human beings who either misinterpret or completely disregard rules of ideologies or religions and thus end up carrying out hate or other forms of crime. All I am saying is that it is not always the religion or ideology's fault. In certain cases, they do provide a considerably large contributing factor - which I readily admit. But, to generalize an already greyish area to such an extent is surely an act of irrational behaviour.

[Amadeus85]

In history we saw ideologies that were evil, like for example communism or nazism.

[wilberhum]

That is exactly my point; you can blame religion all you want but that is not the thing that goes on trial. Hence, blaming religion for the crime is pointless. I do hope you can see this.

Sorry, I don't. The fact that it can not be put on trial does not make it inocent. I do hope you can see this.

[Keltoi]

In history we saw ideologies that were evil, like for example communism or nazism.

Yes, but you aren't calling Islam evil right? I would agree that there is an ideology within the "terrorist" brand of Islam(for lack of a better term) that is quite evil. Sawing a non-combatant's head off on a video recording yelling about God is pure evil, I think most of us would agree. Just as there are ideologies contained within Christianity, mainly in the past, that could be considered evil. There can be no negotiation with these ideologies.

[wilberhum]

In history we saw ideologies that were evil, like for example communism or nazism.

I don't think "The concept of Communism" is evil. The evil comes in on how it is implemented and ran.

[Chechnya]

"Beslan incident"????

Are you kidding me? You make it sound like a couple of guys arguing about a traffic accident. There was nothing "incidental" about the Beslan mass murders. It was absolutely bestial, morally indefensible act of terror that set new standards of "communal" socioapthy.

you obviously havent read up on what russia had done in chechnya and continues to do so - THAT would put Beslan into perspective

Thats not to justify what happened in Beslan - it was wrong

12 years before beslan - in another mass hostage-taking , a groups of young, desperate chechen fighters were able to stop the slow genocide of their nation, to stop the rape and slaughter of women and children in a brutal war (incidentally america supported russia in this mass slaughter of a war - to the point of providing the technology to kill chechen leader Jokhar Dudayev - bloody yanks :confused: )

so 12 years later - here we are again - another brutal war - tens of thousands of more dead women and children, more rape camps and torture camps, more destruction - more world silence and tacit approval of russian actions by calling it a "war on terror"

so once again a bunch of young desperate fighters decide that they will again take hostages to stop the slow genocide of their nation - they will take a school since Putin will never give the order to storm a school and force the russians to stop killing them.

at least that was the plan...

whats the moral of this little story?

if you dont want beslans , stop creating situations for beslan to be the only option out for desperate people- stop the slaughter, the rape, the destruction of a whole country



Any justification you offer is just going to make you look bad. Best to condemn it unreservedly and move on.

[Darkseid]

Islam is not evil, but most muslims are evil. Scratch that, most humans are evil. If Islam was practiced by an extraterrestrial race of a non-aggressive history then we would see a better picture of how Islam would truly play out.

But honestly, Islam is not evil.

It wasn't Islam that force thousands of barbarians to transverse into the Beber and European lands massacres hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women, and children. It wasn't Islam that had led to mass terrorism throughout the known world. It wasn't Islam that led to the enslavement of women for nearly a thousand years and still continuing in much of the muslims world (primarily in Saudi Arabia). And it isn't Islam who is at fault for creating all of these cultural/religious wars.

The ones who are at fault are those barbarians that took Islam against its own name as something that could excuse them of their own crimes.

The only true muslim is Muhammad himself. Everyone else that isn't a prophet should be thrown into hell for an eternity.

[Keltoi]

Islam is not evil, but most muslims are evil. Scratch that, most humans are evil. If Islam was practiced by an extraterrestrial race of a non-aggressive history then we would see a better picture of how Islam would truly play out.

But honestly, Islam is not evil.

It wasn't Islam that force thousands of barbarians to transverse into the Beber and European lands massacres hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women, and children. It wasn't Islam that had led to mass terrorism throughout the known world. It wasn't Islam that led to the enslavement of women for nearly a thousand years and still continuing in much of the muslims world (primarily in Saudi Arabia). And it isn't Islam who is at fault for creating all of these cultural/religious wars.

The ones who are at fault are those barbarians that took Islam against its own name as something that could excuse them of their own crimes.

The only true muslim is Muhammad himself. Everyone else that isn't a prophet should be thrown into hell for an eternity.

I can see you're a very optimistic individual...:D

[silkworm]

What is a terrorist??? What makes a perfectly sane person to act in a violent way??? But, before going any further, we should also discuss that every “action” bears a “reaction”, and every reaction is based on some ‘”Rationale”, so lets discuss this juicy subject, and see what kind of terrorists lived in the past and are calling “juniors” as terrorists???

Can we call Americans terrorists for capturing the country previously occupied by Native Americans by massacring them in millions and finally this land their own???

Can Americans be labeled as terrorists for kicking out the British of the land previously governed by them with the help of guns???

Can we call Americans terrorists for killing millions in Vietnam which was 10,000 miles away from American soil and while Vietnamese people never fired a bullet at American soil???

Can we call Jews terrorists for using bombs, rifles and TNT against British who used to govern Palestine and who back in 1917 declared them the owners of Palestine, even when they were not more than 5% in Population???

Or can we still call Palestinians terrorists for doing the same what the above nations did???

[Keltoi]

What is a terrorist??? What makes a perfectly sane person to act in a violent way??? But, before going any further, we should also discuss that every “action” bears a “reaction”, and every reaction is based on some ‘”Rationale”, so lets discuss this juicy subject, and see what kind of terrorists lived in the past and are calling “juniors” as terrorists???

Can we call Americans terrorists for capturing the country previously occupied by Native Americans by massacring them in millions and finally this land their own???

Can Americans be labeled as terrorists for kicking out the British of the land previously governed by them with the help of guns???

Can we call Americans terrorists for killing millions in Vietnam which was 10,000 miles away from American soil and while Vietnamese people never fired a bullet at American soil???

Can we call Jews terrorists for using bombs, rifles and TNT against British who used to govern Palestine and who back in 1917 declared them the owners of Palestine, even when they were not more than 5% in Population???

Or can we still call Palestinians terrorists for doing the same what the above nations did???

Seems you have a strange definition of "terrorist". Terrorism is the intentional murder of civilians to achieve some political goal. Terrorists usually aren't sanctioned by a nation state, but work as an independent group with their own political ideology.

[AhlaamBella]

Seems you have a strange definition of "terrorist". Terrorism is the intentional murder of civilians to achieve some political goal. Terrorists usually aren't sanctioned by a nation state, but work as an independent group with their own political ideology.

You could also say terrorism is simply causin terror

[Keltoi]

You could also say terrorism is simply causin terror

You could say terrorism is killing civilians to instill fear to achieve a political objective.

[AhlaamBella]

You could say terrorism is killing civilians to instill fear to achieve a political objective.

Still terrorising. Such as, I don't know.....maybe bombing women, children and families to capture the leader of the country...Could that be terrorism?^o)

[Keltoi]

Still terrorising. Such as, I don't know.....maybe bombing women, children and families to capture the leader of the country...Could that be terrorism?^o)

It could be, if those that killed the women and children were intentionally targeting them, and by killing these women and children somehow helped with the objective of capturing a leader. I assume you are referring to Iraq? The oldest trick in the book is to place anti-aircraft guns in civilian areas in an attempt to 1. Stop the planes from targeting them, 2. To cause bad PR for the enemy when those civilians are unintentionally killed. Hezbollah also used this strategy against Israel during that little conflict.

[AhlaamBella]

It could be, if those that killed the women and children were intentionally targeting them, and by killing these women and children somehow helped with the objective of capturing a leader. I assume you are referring to Iraq? The oldest trick in the book is to place anti-aircraft guns in civilian areas in an attempt to 1. Stop the planes from targeting them, 2. To cause bad PR for the enemy when those civilians are unintentionally killed. Hezbollah also used this strategy against Israel during that little conflict.

Whoever used it, it's wrong.These leaders that believe they are doing everyone a favour, need to wake up and quit dreaming. If they want their names to go down in history as heroes, then they need to save people NOT slaughter them

[Keltoi]

Whoever used it, it's wrong.These leaders that believe they are doing everyone a favour, need to wake up and quit dreaming. If they want their names to go down in history as heroes, then they need to save people NOT slaughter them

Couldn't agree more.

[AhlaamBella]

Couldn't agree more.

lol thank you

[Darkseid]

Religious thus act as a means to gather people together under the oppressive mind of their leader. Just look at Saudi Arabia for example. Certainly if the king of Jordan was ruling, you would think that the people would have more right or at least some right to begin with for starters. LOL!

Also the King of Saudi Arabia is the self-proclaimed war chief of Islam. Therefore he is Islam at least in his own mind with all do respect. Same you could say about Osama Bin Ladin.

Bin Ladin is a religious leader and his followers follow his religion, therefore it his faith that is responsible just as much as he is about the actions that have been made from his cult.

[Uthman]

One Muslim says in means AAA and another Muslim says it means ZZZ. Who am I to say who is right and who is wrong? :hiding: :hiding:

The one who does not just lift a single verse out of the text without looking at it's context first - whether that context is historical or whether simply looking at the preceding verse and the verse after.

[KAding]

The one who does not just lift a single verse out of the text without looking at it's context first - whether that context is historical or whether simply looking at the preceding verse and the verse after.

But it's usually not that simple, is it? Fatwas by definition cite or refer to certain verses in the Qu'ran or from the Hadiths. Yet, one still say A and the other B.

Take a simple question whether it is allowed to visit a wedding in a church as a Muslim:

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...eng&txt=church
Answer:
You are doing the right thing by not attending the religious service in the church, because taking part in religious proceedings of non-Muslims is, at the very least, a major sin, and could lead to kufr.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503545248
Based on this, we can say that a Muslim is allowed to attend the wedding of his/her non-Muslim relative, held in a church so long as this attendance does not involve participating in any haram action. This means that a Muslim is not allowed to repeat the hymns said by the priest or other non-Muslims, for that goes against the main precepts of Islam.

So which one is right?

And about a rather fundamental question whether you can be friends with non-Muslims, a ruling that can have enormous impact on your life:

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...slim%20friends
With regard to non-Muslims, the Muslim should disavow himself of them, and he should not feel any love in his heart towards them.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543362
The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time.

So disavow non-Muslims are keep them as friends?

It all seems very contradictory and confusing. Both cite the Qu'ran and the Sayings of the Prophet, yet they appear to be reaching different conclusions? So who is right? I don't want to start a discussion about these topics, I just wonder how exactly you, as a Muslim, know which one to follow?

[Darkseid]

So disavow non-Muslims are keep them as friends?

It all seems very contradictory and confusing. Both cite the Qu'ran and the Sayings of the Prophet, yet they appear to be reaching different conclusions? So who is right? I don't want to start a discussion about these topics, I just wonder how exactly you, as a Muslim, know which one to follow?

Some Muslims are really good friends, but do keep in mind that only Northern Malaysian on this thread thus far has shown the nature of mutual respect needed from a muslim to be considered a friend to a non-muslim.

Can any other muslim here show the same attributes?

[wilberhum]

The one who does not just lift a single verse out of the text without looking at it's context first - whether that context is historical or whether simply looking at the preceding verse and the verse after.

So how do I do that? Keep my Quran handy and every time someone quotes something go read what comes before and after what they say.
Then go to a scholar for the true meaning? But there are Imams that teach hate, what if I end up with on of them?
Do I just try to figure it out my self?
Woops, I forgot I don't read Arabic. So a corrupted English version could lead me in the wrong direction.

And some how you think I’m going to spend my days trying to figure out what is “The Truth” when I truly believe that no one has it?

[silkworm]

Keltoi, denying justice to someone "could" became a cause for it, that's how people kill each other or beat up others. I am sure that denying the above said "causes" should also be considered as Injustice, right???

[Keltoi]

Keltoi, denying justice to someone "could" became a cause for it, that's how people kill each other or beat up others. I am sure that denying the above said "causes" should also be considered as Injustice, right???

By using terrorism you are denying justice to somebody else, thereby losing any high moral ground you might have had because of a certain injustice.

[Idris]

So how do I do that? Keep my Quran handy and every time someone quotes something go read what comes before and after what they say.
Then go to a scholar for the true meaning? But there are Imams that teach hate, what if I end up with on of them?
Do I just try to figure it out my self?
Woops, I forgot I don't read Arabic. So a corrupted English version could lead me in the wrong direction.

And some how you think I’m going to spend my days trying to figure out what is “The Truth” when I truly believe that no one has it?

This is not a Quiz show or Game shows were your asked is Islam an evil Religion?
Don’t beat around the bush look for answer’s that you know.

[wilberhum]

This is not a Quiz show or Game shows were your asked is Islam an evil Religion?
Don’t beat around the bush look for answer’s that you know.

I do! That's the whole point. :(

[silkworm]

Keltoi, You are again denying to accept the "rationale" that made West a great power. It was the "rational" that brought them at the prime of industrial development.

Meaning, every "action" has its "reaction" and you are basing your assumptions on 'reactions" and not on "actions"???

You need to know the casue of this madness, don't you think???

[Keltoi]

Keltoi, You are again denying to accept the "rationale" that made West a great power. It was the "rational" that brought them at the prime of industrial development.

Meaning, every "action" has its "reaction" and you are basing your assumptions on 'reactions" and not on "actions"???

You need to know the casue of this madness, don't you think???

If you are attempting to get me to blame the entire situation on Israel I'm not going to take the bait. Yes, the formation of Israel caused many problems, but the constant cycle of violence we see today isn't entirely an Israeli responsibility.

[silkworm]

Nay, Keltoi, you are getting it all wrong. I was saying that it was the "rationale" to oversee things the other way, and that opened the door of "Industrial Developement" to the Western Europeans.

Men are very different Bro, some over certain injustice done to them, sleep over it, some carry it to the streets and some have different objectives.

United Nations is pending 72 Resolutions against Israel that were Vetoed by USA alone, being a great nation who tirelessly supports and speaks of Human Rights and Justice, USA sided with Israelis that pissed off a lot of Arab nations, So Bro, this actually was the cause behind it.

Israelis terrotized the local population right after the Aliyahs of 'White Jews" in Eretz Israel, these were mainly Eastern European Jewry who had offensive behavior against Arabs, while the Sephardim Jewry was not that ofensive to local arabs. Spo this actually add fuel to fire.

[wilberhum]

Why Blame Islam? Individuals, Not Religions, Carry Out Violent Acts

Because some Muslims say things like

They have no respect for our religion and our shariat, why should we respect their lives?

Whether to kill the prisoners or not is a tricky issue, on one hand they propogate their false gods and false religion, and apostasy is punishable by death in Islam.

So what conclusion can I come to? Kill and give no tolerance to people of different beliefs?

[Muezzin]

We seem to be straying from the topic, mateys.

Spam deletion in progress...

EDIT: Done for the time being, but it seems all discussion on this topic has been exhausted anyway, so it might be locked in the near future.

[silkworm]

One guy shot John Lennon,lets presume it was a Christian who committed this crime, so can we say that all Christians all killers??? Will it be fair to say so??? I think not, so you also should check where you stand cousin

[wilberhum]

One guy shot John Lennon,lets presume it was a Christian who committed this crime, so can we say that all Christians all killers??? Will it be fair to say so??? I think not, so you also should check where you stand cousin

Cousin? No more insults, OK? :raging:

How did you somehow come to some kind of conclusion that I blame anyone for someone else actions? :skeleton:

I blame no one for the actions of others. I never have and assume that I never will.
(I say assume because my crystal ball is fogy today) :D

Where have I ever done so? Please point it out?

[silkworm]

Oh, you're offended, ok thanks dawg...and ???

[wilberhum]

Oh, you're offended, ok thanks dawg...and ???

I don't see where you point out that I blame all Muslims for what some Muslims do.
Why is that? :rollseyes
Maybe you made a baseless accusation? :?

[silkworm]

I tired of grown up people acting as "Oversized" Fetuses, thanks very much and I am outa this forum.......take care good people!!!

[wilberhum]

I tired of grown up people acting as "Oversized" Fetuses, thanks very much and I am outa this forum.......take care good people!!!

Amazing. He makes baseless accusations about me.:?
When I call him on it, he insults me.
Gee last time I made an inaccurate statement about someone, I apologized.

But I guess that's just me being me.

[Muezzin]

Okay. Discussion seems to have broken down entirely because the topic has been exhausted, and is now giving way to insults.

Thus I'm closing the thread.