Taleban 'kill S Korean hostage'

[guyabano]

A Taleban spokesman says a South Korean from a group of 22 held hostage by the Taleban in southern Afghanistan has been killed.

The office of the governor of Ghazni province and local police also told the BBC the killing had taken place, but neither had seen the victim's body.
The Korean Christian aid workers were kidnapped 10 days ago.
The leader of the group was shot by the Taleban on Wednesday. The militants want government prisoners released.

TV footage

"We set several deadlines and the Afghan government did not pay attention to our deadlines," said Taleban spokesman Qari Yousuf Ahmadi.
The al-Jazeera Arabic TV station showed footage of several of the hostages held by the Taleban.
Several women were seen in the footage with headscarves and Taleban militants in the background.
According to reports, no new deadline for the government to release its prisoners has been set by the Taleban.
The Afghan government is doing all it can to secure the release of the South Koreans, President Hamid Karzai said on Sunday.
He assured a South Korean envoy everything possible was being done to free the hostages - mainly women.

Mr Karzai said kidnapping foreign guests was "shameful", un-Islamic and against Afghan culture.


Source

I can only join these statements. What those Taliban do is coward acts and very shameful. I cannot understand, that some of this Board support People like that ! :thumbs_do

[Keltoi]

Second one killed today. Truly shameful.

[wilberhum]

[B]I cannot understand, that some of this Board support People like that ! :thumbs_do

I don't understand either.
Would someone who is a Teleban supporter please explain.

[SATalha]

May the remaining people be released safely.

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[Amadeus85]

First of all, lets say honestly, it was extremely stupid for those Koreans to go to Afganistan nowadays. Is now a more dangerous place for christian missionaries ? I really doubt. Its like getting in the face of lion. I checked even a korean forum, and great majority of Koreans think that those missonaries were extremely stupid to go there.
But of course i really hope that they will be saved.Although, i think that Talibans will kill them one by one.

[wilberhum]

First of all, lets say honestly, it was extremely stupid for those Koreans to go to Afganistan nowadays. Is now a more dangerous place for christian missionaries ? I really doubt. Its like getting in the face of lion. I checked even a korean forum, and great majority of Koreans think that those missonaries were extremely stupid to go there.
But of course i really hope that they will be saved.Although, i think that Talibans will kill them one by one.

The extreme stupidity of the Koreans is not in question.
But, They are not guilty of criminal stupidity. :rolleyes:

What the Taliban is doing is criminal. :mad:

Its like getting in the face of lion.

It isn't anything like that. I don't expect a lion to respect human life.

[Amadeus85]

The extreme stupidity of the Koreans is not in question.
But, They are not guilty of criminal stupidity. :rolleyes:

What the Taliban is doing is criminal. :mad:


.

There are so many places that need christian missionaries more, for example Great Britain, Holland, France, Sweden.

[wilberhum]

There are so many places that need christian missionaries more, for example Great Britain, Holland, France, Sweden.

In your openion^.

In my opinion, no place needs missionaries.
They destroy cultures. :mad:

[SATalha]

In your openion^.

In my opinion, no place needs missionaries.
They destroy cultures. :mad:

they are culture:D

[جوري]

[wilberhum]

That does seem to be the message the Taleban wants to send out.
Too bad it includes the Afghanis.

[جوري]

Afghanis are too busy with their opium to notice!

[Skywalker]

Proselytization is not allowed within a Muslim country...which is what those missionaries were doing -- you become Christian, we give you food and water.

However, there are a few questions raised here:

1) IS Afghanistan a Sharia country, hence would that rule apply?
2) Does Islam actually permit the killing of kuffar who try to spread their religion in a Sharia state? -- if not, what is the Islamic punishment, if any?
3) How could the Koreans be that dumb? Something is amiss...

[Mawaddah]

I dont think it's the question of them being 'dumb', I suppose they're just those kinds of people who read too much of those 'heroic' acts of the missionaries of old tramping deep into forests and facing vicious tribesmen just to spread the word of Jesus...

I suppose they were feeling very much heroic ... walking into the face of danger...you never know.

Or maybe they were just desperate to 'save' some poor souls...

Well I hope the Taliban pulls it's act together. It's just terrible what they're doing.

[Keltoi]

I dont think it's the question of them being 'dumb', I suppose they're just those kinds of people who read too much of those 'heroic' acts of the missionaries of old tramping deep into forests and facing vicious tribesmen just to spread the word of Jesus...

I suppose they were feeling very much heroic ... walking into the face of danger...you never know.

Or maybe they were just desperate to 'save' some poor souls...

Well I hope the Taliban pulls it's act together. It's just terrible what they're doing.

It isn't a matter of being heroic. Christians are expected to volunteer for missionary work at some point in their lives, and it isn't for the sake of adventure in most cases. Although I'm sure there is the occasional missionary "rambo" out there. However, those that sent these people into Afghanistan were obviously incompetent. You don't send missionaries into a war zone. The U.S. military doesn't want them there because they usually end up having to save them, at the risk of U.S. servicemen. Reminds me of the rescue mission the U.S. had to pull off to save those British and American missionaries(AKA peace activists) in Iraq not that long ago.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Australian special forces get wind of this one. That is one 1st class outfit there....

[Amadeus85]

Proselytization is not allowed within a Muslim country...which is what those missionaries were doing -- you become Christian, we give you food and water.

I have read a bit about south korean missionaries working in central Asia (Kirgistan,Tajjikistan,Chechenia,) and it is rather not about giving food to poor people.

[wilberhum]

Proselytization is not allowed within a Muslim country...which is what those missionaries were doing -- you become Christian, we give you food and water....

If it is not allolwed, that is up to the government, not a bunch of armed thugs.

However, there are a few questions raised here:

1) IS Afghanistan a Sharia country, hence would that rule apply?......

To about the same extent as Sadui Arabia.

2) Does Islam actually permit the killing of kuffar who try to spread their religion in a Sharia state? -- if not, what is the Islamic punishment, if any?

That seams to be pointless in this thread since the actions are not that of the government.

3) How could the Koreans be that dumb? Something is amiss...

There is always people doing what others concider dumb.

[wilberhum]

No deal on Korean hostages - Bush
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6933063.stm
US President George W Bush and Afghan leader Hamid Karzai have agreed not to bargain with the Taleban over South Korean hostages, the White House said.
A US presidential spokesman said there would be no "quid pro quo" over the 21 captives, after a news conference near Washington between the two leaders.

Two South Koreans from the abducted Christian group have been killed by the Taleban, who demand a prisoner swap.

The captives - 18 of them women - were seized on 19 July from a bus in Ghazni.

(More)

[Keltoi]

No deal on Korean hostages - Bush
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6933063.stm
US President George W Bush and Afghan leader Hamid Karzai have agreed not to bargain with the Taleban over South Korean hostages, the White House said.
A US presidential spokesman said there would be no "quid pro quo" over the 21 captives, after a news conference near Washington between the two leaders.

Two South Koreans from the abducted Christian group have been killed by the Taleban, who demand a prisoner swap.

The captives - 18 of them women - were seized on 19 July from a bus in Ghazni.

(More)

That must be a really difficult position to take, especially with women involved. I understand why there can be no negotiation for hostages, (as it will only lead to more hostages), but these are some of the decisions leaders have to make that must really be hard.

[wilberhum]

Many times in life you don't get to make "Good Decisions".

Some times you have to choose the "Lest Bad".

[wilberhum]

Taliban offer female hostage swap
The Taliban have said it is prepared to swap women hostages among 21 South Koreans being held in Afghanistan for female prisoners linked to the group.

Tuesday's offer came after the Afghan president and his US counterpart ruled out making any concessions to the kidnappers.
(more)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...98E3ACDDEA.htm

[Intisar]

Whoever supports the Taliban needs some serious mental help. I hope the rest of the hostages get freed safely.

[wilberhum]

Korean officials meet Taliban
South Korean negotiators have been meeting Taliban officials in an attempt to secure the release of 21 hostages held in southern Afghanistan, an Afghan official said.

The talks between two senior Taliban leaders and four negotiators in Ghazni on Friday was the first face-to-face meeting since the Koreans were kidnapped three weeks ago.

A Taliban spokesman told Al Jazeera that its officials had received a written guarantee from the Afghan government that they would not be arrested at the meeting.

The movement also said it will not kill any more of the hostages before the talks.

"Until we sit for face-to-face negotiations with the Koreans, we have no plans to kill any Korean hostages," Qari Yousef Ahmadi, a Taliban spokesman, said earlier on Friday.
(More)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...4017E0723B.htm
What a sweet bunch. Not planning any more murders.

Where are all the Teleban fans who cheer for these god loving thugs.

[Haidar_Abbas]

[wilberhum]

^ I guess he agrees. :skeleton:

[guyabano]

Korean officials meet Taliban
South Korean negotiators have been meeting Taliban officials in an attempt to secure the release of 21 hostages held in southern Afghanistan, an Afghan official said.

The talks between two senior Taliban leaders and four negotiators in Ghazni on Friday was the first face-to-face meeting since the Koreans were kidnapped three weeks ago.

A Taliban spokesman told Al Jazeera that its officials had received a written guarantee from the Afghan government that they would not be arrested at the meeting.

The movement also said it will not kill any more of the hostages before the talks.

"Until we sit for face-to-face negotiations with the Koreans, we have no plans to kill any Korean hostages," Qari Yousef Ahmadi, a Taliban spokesman, said earlier on Friday.
(More)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...4017E0723B.htm
What a sweet bunch. Not planning any more murders.

Where are all the Teleban fans who cheer for these god loving thugs.

Hahahaha, since when are Taliban into Charity? Or did they read a book about Amnesty International, or they just want to be again in the headlines?

Oh, btw...good for the hostages !

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

The Taliban are not helping themselves by doing this before they kidnapped these South Koreans South Korea didnt like or didnt hate the Taliban but i think they will hate the Taliban now though so the Taliban now have another enemy they dont need.

[wilberhum]

The Taliban are not helping themselves by doing this before they kidnapped these South Koreans South Korea didnt like or didnt hate the Taliban but i think they will hate the Taliban now though so the Taliban now have another enemy they dont need.

ISLAMASWEENEY, is that you? :skeleton:

Na, what did you do with ISLAMASWEENEY? ;D

Anyway, you are totally correct. :thumbs_up

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes lol i have seen sense sorry if i affended anyone.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

To udnerstand why the Koreans go to Afghan you need to read about the Korean evangelical rivalry.

there are many churches in South Korea that fight with one another in their action for "calling to the faith"

Thus afghanistan is no more than a trump card for them..to show how better they are comapred to others,how selfless and lvoing they are..

In short it is showing love wiht the intent of saying "i am better than you"

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...647646,00.html

Many of Korea's Christians are passionate evangelists, exhibiting the zeal of the newly converted. Evangelical Protestantism is a relatively recent arrival on the peninsula, having taken hold only after the Korean War. Now, fully one-third of the 45 million people in this traditionally Confucian society follow the practices of Jesus (about 10% are Roman Catholic). An estimated 16,000 Korean Christians were working around the world as missionaries in more than 150 countries last year. Most Korean missionaries work in China, and go there under the guise of being researchers, or businessmen, so they won't be imprisoned for proselytizing. Russia is apparently the next most popular destination for Korean missionaries, followed by Europe and South East Asia.

An unfortunate side to the evangelical movement in Korea is increased competition. Churches number in the tens of thousands here, and are competing so intensely for members that pastors feel pressured to engage in a kind of one-upmanship: sending congregants on as many overseas missions as possible. New markets and riskier missions tend to garner more publicity, which until now has translated into more kudos and ultimately more money for the pastor and the church.

[wilberhum]

As long as they worn't killing people, they should have never been bathered.
If you think saying "I'm better than you" justifies murder then many Muslims need to be killed.

[snakelegs]

The Taliban are not helping themselves by doing this before they kidnapped these South Koreans South Korea didnt like or didnt hate the Taliban but i think they will hate the Taliban now though so the Taliban now have another enemy they dont need.

i agree.
the missionaries were violating the laws of afghanistan and should have been deported.
afghanistan, though an islamic republic, does not have shariah, so i think it isn't even correct islamically to kill them.

[Talha777]

The South koreans came to afghanistan to do christian missionary work, i mean how stupid can they be? They have no respect for our religion and our shariat, why should we respect their lives? If the Taliban free these hostages it is pure good will on their side, because they don't deserve to live.

[snakelegs]

since afghanistan does not have shariah, would it really be ok to kill them from a purely islamic standpoint?

[Talha777]

Afghanistan is in a state of war between Islamic forces (The Taliban) and the pro-America forces and puppet government of Hamid Karzai, which relies on foreign troops from Western countries. The government of Hamid Karzai is illegitimate in the Islamic perspective. Whether to kill the prisoners or not is a tricky issue, on one hand they propogate their false gods and false religion, and apostasy is punishable by death in Islam. On the other hand it is not clear whether they now regret their mistake and therefore deserve forgiveness.

[snakelegs]

yes i realize karzai's gov't is considered illegitimate.
but i thought these punishments were only permissable under shariah. maybe the taliban consider themselves a state within a state? i don't think it's correct though, because it is not officially an islamic state under shariah.
still, i think it would be better if they would just plain throw them out. abducting them and throwing them out should be enough warning to future missionaries to respect the laws of the land they are in.

[wilberhum]

The South koreans came to afghanistan to do christian missionary work, i mean how stupid can they be? They have no respect for our religion and our shariat, why should we respect their lives? If the Taliban free these hostages it is pure good will on their side, because they don't deserve to live.

Why should they respect "Your Religion", :raging:
"Your Religion" advocates gang murder. :raging:
Not Islam, "Your Religion" which is nothing but hate and intolerance. :raging: :raging:

[Talha777]

Wilberhum I advise you to voluntarily remove your last post, I have already reported to the moderators, you may still have a chance to avoid any kind of disciplinary action they mete out towards you if you act quickly.

[Cognescenti]

The South koreans came to afghanistan to do christian missionary work, i mean how stupid can they be? They have no respect for our religion and our shariat, why should we respect their lives? If the Taliban free these hostages it is pure good will on their side, because they don't deserve to live.

How would it be if I killed you if you defied convention and faced backwards on an elevator or ran clockwise around a track?

Is naivete a reason to take someone's life? You are a certifiable nutcase. 10:1 your post will be in the vapor with an overt call for violence. Of course, my post will be gone too...because I responded to you. :rollseyes

[Suomipoika]

The South koreans came to afghanistan to do christian missionary work, i mean how stupid can they be? They have no respect for our religion and our shariat, why should we respect their lives? If the Taliban free these hostages it is pure good will on their side, because they don't deserve to live.

So not respecting something is enough to kill people? Wow.

[Skywalker]

Afghanistan is in a state of war between Islamic forces (The Taliban) and the pro-America forces and puppet government of Hamid Karzai, which relies on foreign troops from Western countries. The government of Hamid Karzai is illegitimate in the Islamic perspective.

While at the same time, the Taliban is illegitimate from their perspective. The whole issue of govn't legitimacy is not helping in solving this situation.

Whether to kill the prisoners or not is a tricky issue, on one hand they propogate their false gods and false religion

Is proselytization of a religion other than Islam within an Islamic country punishable by death? Is there a Qur'anic reference to this, or a Hadeeth?

and apostasy is punishable by death in Islam

I beg to differ. The Grand Mufti of Egypt just made a fatwa saying that Muslims can change their religion if they don't believe. A lot of other scholars are in agreement with this. Nevertheless, the missionaries are not apostates, so the punishment in question is not applicable to them unless there is a reference to the same punishment being done to missionaries.

They have no respect for our religion and our shariat, why should we respect their lives?

Because prophet Mohammed (pbuh) said so. You can't kill someone for their ignorance.

[snakelegs]

this has made me wonder if the taliban even knows islam. (not that i do, of course).
i know there is a death punsihment for apostates under a shariah state (which afghanistan is not, altho it is an islamic republic). but i have never heard of a death punishment for proselytizers, though it is illegal in afghanistan.
also the taliban is not a government now and the fact that they don't recognise the karzai gov't seems irrelevant to me.
i am really curious about this - does somebody know if the taleban are acting in accordance with islam on this thing?

[bint_khalid]

im a bit sceptical on what the media says.
We dont know the real reason why these "missionaries" were in afghanistan in the first place, they could have been spies. Allah knows best
if they were normal civilians then obviously it would be wrong though

[bint_khalid]

this has made me wonder if the taliban even knows islam. (not that i do, of course).
i know there is a death punsihment for apostates under a shariah state (which afghanistan is not, altho it is an islamic republic). but i have never heard of a death punishment for proselytizers, though it is illegal in afghanistan.
also the taliban is not a government now and the fact that they don't recognise the karzai gov't seems irrelevant to me.
i am really curious about this - does somebody know if the taleban are acting in accordance with islam on this thing?

the taleban are trying their best to follow the quran and sunnah, they want to implement sharia law. But obviously afghans are still very cultural, you will get some bad apples who try and enforce laws which are not islamic.
Also they may still be some less practising guys amongst the taliban.

From what i know the taliban have good intentions and only doing what their religon requires them to do.

[bint_khalid]

since afghanistan does not have shariah, would it really be ok to kill them from a purely islamic standpoint?

although the whole of afghanistan does not have sharia law many taliban safe havens have sharia implemented.
Many areas in souther afghanistan near the pakistan border have sharia law, it could well have been these missionaries wondered into the wrong territory.
And as i said previously we do not know for sure if they were missionaries.

[Skywalker]

does somebody know if the taleban are acting in accordance with islam on this thing?

This is what I'm trying to establish. So far, I've just read that it's not allowed to promote a religion other than Islam in a Sharia state, but I haven't found anything that talks about a punishment for those who break that rule.

i know there is a death punsihment for apostates under a shariah state

This is currently under debate since there are various points of view and different fatwas on this.

[KAding]

This is what I'm trying to establish. So far, I've just read that it's not allowed to promote a religion other than Islam in a Sharia state, but I haven't found anything that talks about a punishment for those who break that rule.

There is one more question that precedes that. Can they declare Afghanistan to be an Islamic State when they only control a fraction of the territory? In other words, shouldn't they first control the government to create an Islamic state?

Otherwise every group could essentially set up an Islamic state even when it lacks control over the institutions that control the territory of the state. I mean, if the Taliban can declare Afghanistan to be ruled by Islamic law, what stops, say, my friendly Muslim neighbor from doing the same in my street?

[Skywalker]

There is one more question that precedes that. Can they declare Afghanistan to be an Islamic State when they only control a fraction of the territory? In other words, shouldn't they first control the government to create an Islamic state?

Otherwise every group could essentially set up an Islamic state even when it lacks control over the institutions that control the territory of the state. I mean, if the Taliban can declare Afghanistan to be ruled by Islamic law, what stops, say, my friendly Muslim neighbor from doing the same in my street?

That's a valid point IMO, and like you said the question precedes the other...actually I'd say both need to be answered at the same time.

[Skywalker]

Here's a little something...

http://www.oic-oci.org/press/English/2007/08/IIFA.htm

[Talha777]

The Grand Mufti of Egypt just made a fatwa saying that Muslims can change their religion if they don't believe

The fatawa from Egypt, specifically al azhar, are not credible, especially considering the fact that the government has regulations and considerable influence over them. They are making fatawa to suit a political idealogy. On the other hand, you should refer to fatawa from Deoband and affiliated ulama or madrassahs which is free from government influence and is much more credible and knowledgable institution.

Don't you remember that Al-Azhar fatwa by Mahmud Shaltut that Hazrat Isa (alaihi salaam) is dead (auzubillah)?

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=653

Al-Azhar has produced many great scholars in the past. Unfortunately, it does not enjoy that position today.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

[wilberhum]

Here's a little something...

http://www.oic-oci.org/press/English/2007/08/IIFA.htm

Luke :D You are right it is interesting. Thought I would bring it down.
Hope you don't mind.

International Islamic Fiqh academy

Calls for the release of South Korean hostages



The Secretariat of the Organization of the Islamic Conference, with regard to the South Korean citizens kidnapped in Afghanistan, transmits the following statement by the OIC subsidiary organ, the International Islamic Fiqh Academy (IIFA):



The International Islamic Fiqh Academy, recalling the Koreans that were kidnapped, two of whom have been killed, appeals to the Taliban Movement to release the hostages, for they have committed no crime. The IIFA hopes that the captors would abide by the ethics of Islam which calls for compassion. It also reminds them that Islam prohibits kidnapping and killing and considers them corruption on the land, which every Muslim must avoid. Allah says: “Take not life, which God has made sacred, except by way of justice and law.” He also says: “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors.”



The IIFA regards this behaviour as injustice which is prohibited: “And God loves not those that do wrong.” It also sees it as undermining Islam and an opportunity for the enemies to cast aspersions on the religion and to describe it and its adherents in terms of violence and terrorism.



A substitute for this behaviour which is at variance with the preservation and protection of human rights against all forms of violation and injustice as advocated by Islam is to opt for the path of argument and dialogue, in response to Allah’s saying: “Invite (all) to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for your Lord knows best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.”



Jeddah, 5th August 2007

[snakelegs]

the taleban are trying their best to follow the quran and sunnah, they want to implement sharia law. But obviously afghans are still very cultural, you will get some bad apples who try and enforce laws which are not islamic.
Also they may still be some less practising guys amongst the taliban.

From what i know the taliban have good intentions and only doing what their religon requires them to do.

wel, this is what i am questioning - not whether the taliban are good guys or bad guys, but are they even following islam correctly?

[snakelegs]

although the whole of afghanistan does not have sharia law many taliban safe havens have sharia implemented.
Many areas in souther afghanistan near the pakistan border have sharia law, it could well have been these missionaries wondered into the wrong territory.
And as i said previously we do not know for sure if they were missionaries.

they have not been accused of spying.

[Skywalker]

The fatawa from Egypt, specifically al azhar, are not credible, especially considering the fact that the government has regulations and considerable influence over them. They are making fatawa to suit a political idealogy. On the other hand, you should refer to fatawa from Deoband and affiliated ulama or madrassahs which is free from government influence and is much more credible and knowledgable institution.

You're right in that some fatwas come out due to govn't influence -- actually lots of people these days seem to be coming up with fatwas that suit their situations -- nevertheless, Ali Gomaa has a fairly good reputation and he's not part of Al-Azhar (who have come up with some even stranger fatwas than you can imagine). This fatwa in particular is very much opposed by a lot of scholars, while it's quite welcomed by a whole lot of other scholars.

I think it's only a matter of time before people start actually thinking about "why" people have been killing apostates throughout history and eventually realize that they have been doing a grave crime indeed. May Allah guide the ummah and forgive us our sins.

Btw bro, haven't I seen u over at ffi?

Luke You are right it is interesting. Thought I would bring it down.
Hope you don't mind.

What, how dare you?! lol just kidding man.

I hope ur starting to see that we Muslims aren't as evil as you think ;)

[snakelegs]

This is what I'm trying to establish. So far, I've just read that it's not allowed to promote a religion other than Islam in a Sharia state, but I haven't found anything that talks about a punishment for those who break that rule.


This is currently under debate since there are various points of view and different fatwas on this.

i am wondering if it is possible that the taleban isn't even acting according to islam. it would be quite ironic if they are not even following islam! (though i am sure that they think they are).
you are not allowed to promote a religion other than islam - but death penalty? again, i know the punishment for apostasy is death if the person goes public - but i've never heard of it for proselytizing. and as you said, even on apostates, there are differences of opinion among scholars.
and yes, the second issue is in the absence of the islamic state. KAding put it well.
one thing for sure, the taleban are not big on Public Relations. ;D

[wilberhum]

I hope ur starting to see that we Muslims aren't as evil as you think ;)

Most Muslims are good people but some Muslims are more evil than I can comprehend.
Sadly, the level of intolerance that is required to kill someone for their beliefs seems to be a common trait.

[snakelegs]

I think it's only a matter of time before people start actually thinking about "why" people have been killing apostates throughout history and eventually realize that they have been doing a grave crime indeed. May Allah guide the ummah and forgive us our sins.

this would be a topic for another thread, but i tend to agree with you 2 grounds:
death for apostates stems from when muslims were under attack and people who left the religion were actually becoming spies and putting the muslims in danger. (treason)
and the other problem is that such an important thing as the death punishment for apostasy is not mentioned in the qur'an.

[Skywalker]

i am wondering if it is possible that the taleban isn't even acting according to islam. it would be quite ironic if they are not even following islam! (though i am sure that they think they are).

The Taliban are not exactly "perfect Muslims". They do have a lot of good qualities in some aspects of their lifestyles, but they also do a lot of stupid stuff that has no basis in Islam and is nothing more than passed down traditions. Not educating their women and mandating niqab for example.

one thing for sure, the taleban are not big on Public Relations.

You can just imagine what Taliban TV would be like... but seriuosly though, Islam urges good manners in all that you do, so Islam itself is big on Public Relations. I guess this is another example of them not behaving very Islamically.

Sadly, the level of intolerance that is required to kill someone for their beliefs seems to be a common trait.

I highly disagree. You can't kill someone for their beliefs -- but for their actions. I don't think you'll find another Muslim on this board that will disagree with that.

[wilberhum]

I highly disagree. You can't kill someone for their beliefs -- but for their actions. I don't think you'll find another Muslim on this board that will disagree with that.

Did you missed the first part of what I said?

Most Muslims are good people but some Muslims are more evil than I can comprehend.

[Skywalker]

Did you missed the first part of what I said?

No, but you said that it was a "common trait" -- meaning the good ones and the bad ones both have it...? Right?

[snakelegs]

The Taliban are not exactly "perfect Muslims". They do have a lot of good qualities in some aspects of their lifestyles, but they also do a lot of stupid stuff that has no basis in Islam and is nothing more than passed down traditions. Not educating their women and mandating niqab for example.


You can just imagine what Taliban TV would be like... but seriuosly though, Islam urges good manners in all that you do, so Islam itself is big on Public Relations. I guess this is another example of them not behaving very Islamically.


I highly disagree. You can't kill someone for their beliefs -- but for their actions. I don't think you'll find another Muslim on this board that will disagree with that.

problem is that they present themselves as The Upholders of Islam and they are accepted as such by non-muslims. also many muslims (here,too) blindly accept them at face value and defend everything they do, in the belief that they are following islam. they are regarded as above criticism. i don't question their sincerity, but i do question their knowledge.
more statements like the one you presented from the IIF are needed, but of course they will never get the media coverage that they should. beheadings are so much more fun and so much more picturesque than a group of scholars!
now taleban TV - that is something to ponder! :giggling: :giggling:

[Skywalker]

problem is that they present themselves as The Upholders of Islam and they are accepted as such by non-muslims. also many muslims (here,too) blindly accept them at face value and defend everything they do, in the belief that they are following islam. they are regarded as above criticism. i don't question their sincerity, but i do question their knowledge.
more statements like the one you presented from the IIF are needed, but of course they will never get the media coverage that they should. beheadings are so much more fun and so much more picturesque than a group of scholars!

Very good points, snakelegs.

[Cognescenti]

...
now taleban TV - that is something to ponder! :giggling: :giggling:

24 hr test pattern with voice over.

[Keltoi]

I read today that a Taliban spokesman hinted that two of the hostage would be released. I suppose that is a good start, I just pray that all of the survivors make it home.

[Skywalker]

Yeah, they've been saying that for a couple of days now...dunno if they released anyone yet though.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes but there is no proof that the Taliban have released two hostages.

[bint_khalid]

if the afghan govt, and the south korean govt were so bothered about the hostages they would simply release taliban prisoners. Its a simple solution.

[Skywalker]

Yes but there is no proof that the Taliban have released two hostages.

There is now...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070813/...as/afghanistan

[KAding]

if the afghan govt, and the south korean govt were so bothered about the hostages they would simply release taliban prisoners. Its a simple solution.

Ehm, no. That'll just mean there will be more hostage crises in the future. Giving in to hostage takers demands makes such criminal activities more rewarding and thus more likely to happen again.

<sarcasm>
I have a solution though! Why doesn't the South Korean government take some random Afghans as hostage and do an exchange then. I'm sure they can find some convenient Afghan family somewhere in Seoul. If not they can just kidnap them in Afghanistan somewhere I suppose.
</sarcasm>

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes Why Dosent The Afghan Government Just Release The Taliban Prisoners.

[bint_khalid]

Ehm, no. That'll just mean there will be more hostage crises in the future. Giving in to hostage takers demands makes such criminal activities more rewarding and thus more likely to happen again.

<sarcasm>
I have a solution though! Why doesn't the South Korean government take some random Afghans as hostage and do an exchange then. I'm sure they can find some convenient Afghan family somewhere in Seoul. If not they can just kidnap them in Afghanistan somewhere I suppose.
</sarcasm>

why should korea take afghans who are already in their own country?...Taliban took koreans who were in afghanistan. They never flew to korea and took them.

And if an exchange took place then how about all the foreigners leave afghanistan so the taliban have no foreigners to kidnap ? then the problem will be sorted.

[Skywalker]

Yes Why Dosent The Afghan Government Just Release The Taliban Prisoners.

Scroll to one post above yours for your answer ;)

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Why Dosent Every Foreign Person Leave Afghanistan Then Nowbody Will Get Kidnapped.

[wilberhum]

Why Dosent Every Foreign Person Leave Afghanistan Then Nowbody Will Get Kidnapped.

I think getting rid of roaming gangs a better idea.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes That Might Help Aswell Yes.

[bint_khalid]

Why Dosent Every Foreign Person Leave Afghanistan Then Nowbody Will Get Kidnapped.

exactly

I think getting rid of roaming gangs a better idea.

roaming gangs?....you mean the coalition troops are the only roaming gangs.
Release taliban prisoners, then korean hostages will be freed. then to avoid a spate of forein kidnapping all foreigners should leave. Then no one the taliban can kidnap. :)

[wilberhum]

Right! Roaming gangs. Nothing but criminals who protect criminals. Local terrorists that protect international terrorists.

[bint_khalid]

Right! Roaming gangs. Nothing but criminals who protect criminals. Local terrorists that protect international terrorists.

i dont understand you, you dont make sense :S

[wilberhum]

i dont understand you, you dont make sense :S

Read a little history. :skeleton:

[bint_khalid]

taliban did not protect OBL.

they told the USA, give us proof bin laden was reponsible for 9/11 and we will hand him over. no proof was given so they let him stay. everyone knows 9/11 was an inside job

[wilberhum]

taliban did not protect OBL.

they told the USA, give us proof bin laden was reponsible for 9/11 and we will hand him over. no proof was given so they let him stay. everyone knows 9/11 was an inside job

Right! I have a bridge I will sell you.

Go ahead be a Taliban chearleader. Millions are. You are nothing special. Just another terrorist lover.

End of my response to denial.

[Amadeus85]

taliban did not protect OBL.

they told the USA, give us proof bin laden was reponsible for 9/11 and we will hand him over. no proof was given so they let him stay. everyone knows 9/11 was an inside job

No proof was given ? But Osama admitted that it was him many times in video tapes. Maybe you dont know that few years before 9/11 Osama ben Laden booked a whole page in very popular english newspaper, where he called to Jihad against Americans, because during the first Gulf war they enetered holy places of Saudi Arabia.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes There Was Loads Of Martyrdom Tapes Of The Hijackers.

[bint_khalid]

Right! I have a bridge I will sell you.

Go ahead be a Taliban chearleader. Millions are. You are nothing special. Just another terrorist lover.

End of my response to denial.

lol terrorist lover!, ^o) i give up with you.

[bint_khalid]

No proof was given ? But Osama admitted that it was him many times in video tapes. Maybe you dont know that few years before 9/11 Osama ben Laden booked a whole page in very popular english newspaper, where he called to Jihad against Americans, because during the first Gulf war they enetered holy places of Saudi Arabia.

the video which shows OBL apparently admitting is fake. The video is blurred and its been proven its fake.

[Keltoi]

the video which shows OBL apparently admitting is fake. The video is blurred and its been proven its fake.

:uhwhat Proven to be fake by who? www.endlessconspiracies.com ?

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

By Al Queda Lol.

[wilberhum]

the video which shows OBL apparently admitting is fake. The video is blurred and its been proven its fake.

It is not a case of no proof given. With you no proof is acctable.

You just reject it all then say there is none. :-\

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

No If There Is No Proof Then There Is No Proof Pure And Simple.

[bint_khalid]

just take a look at the video again, where OBL supposedly admits his role. take a look at his blurred face, blurred video, wearing a gold watch (which is haraam in islam for men).#
Even a 5 year old can tell the video is fake.
If you take a look at original OBL videos the video quality is good, his sound is clear and different.

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes The Video Where He Declares War On The Usa Just Before The Embassy Bombings In Kenya And Tanzania That Video Was Real.

[wilberhum]

just take a look at the video again, where OBL supposedly admits his role. take a look at his blurred face, blurred video, wearing a gold watch (which is haraam in islam for men).#
Even a 5 year old can tell the video is fake.
If you take a look at original OBL videos the video quality is good, his sound is clear and different.

Good enough for CAIR, good enough for me. :peace:

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

Yes The Cia Will Make Up Lies Remember Them Weapons Of Mass Destruction Saddam Had Yeah Right Mate.

[bint_khalid]

Good enough for CAIR, good enough for me. :peace:

you seriously dont make sense, i suggest you watch the video again and pay attention to all the blurriness. Some CIA amateur work for sure.
lolzz

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

You Cant Believe The Cia They Always Say That Iran Supplies The Taliban......hello America The Taliban Kidnapped Iranian Officials.

[wilberhum]

you seriously dont make sense, i suggest you watch the video again and pay attention to all the blurriness. Some CIA amateur work for sure.
lolzz

Do either of you have a clue what CAIR is? :skeleton:

[INSERT HEAD-IN-SAND=ON]It is part of the CIA.[INSERT HEAD-IN-SAND=OFF]

[ISLAMASWEENEY]

What Is It Then?

[wilberhum]

What Is It Then?

Do a search on "CAIR". :skeleton:

I'm not into hand holding. :-\

Maybe you should know what you are talking about be you talk. :enough!:

But then your "Post Court" is what you are really interested in. :rollseyes

[wilberhum]

S Korean hostage talks to continue
The Taliban and South Korean negotiators will resume talks on Thursday for the release of 19 South Korean hostages.

Yousuf Ahmadi, a Taliban spokesman, said "the talks will resume tomorrow at 10 o'clock (07:30 GMT) in the same place in Ghazni province," referring to the local headquarters of the Afghan Red Crescent Society.
(More)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...1B71F95F6B.htm

[wilberhum]

Freed Korean hostages return home
Two female hostages freed from Taliban captivity in Afghanistan have returned to South Korea.

Kim Kyeong-ja, 37, and Kim Ji-na, 32, arrived at Incheon airport outside Seoul on Friday, but 19 other South Koreans remain held in Afghanistan almost a month after they were captured by Taliban gunmen.

Appearing clearly shaken by their ordeal, Kim Kyeong-ja said before a throng of journalists: "I want to thank the Korean government and the Korean people for their concerns and sincerely apologise for causing such worries.

"I hope for the safe release of the rest of our team members as well."

Kim Ji-na echoed: "All I wish for is the release of the rest of our team members."
(More)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...4AD5893549.htm

[wilberhum]

South Korean hostage talks 'fail'
Taliban officials have said they are deciding what to do with 19 captured aid workers after talks with a South Korean delegation in southern Afghanistan ended unsuccessfully.

"The talks ended without any result and have failed as our main demand was not accepted," Qari Mohammad Yousuf, a Taliban spokesman, said on Saturday.

The announcement came as the Afghan interior ministry said a German woman had been abducted by unidentified armed men in Kabul.
(More)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...3ACE8D6F25.htm

[Skywalker]

^ Actually, not only did they fail, but the Taliban has also taken a new hostage, a German woman working for a Christian organization that creates HIV/AIDS awareness (God knows what good that'll do in Afganistan). She got kidnapped while sitting in a restaurant with her boyfriend and whisked away in a car. Police tried to stop them by firing at the vehicle, but were unsuccessful. They hit a passing taxi cab instead, killing its driver. :confused:

[wilberhum]

^ Actually, not only did they fail, but the Taliban has also taken a new hostage, a German woman working for a Christian organization that creates HIV/AIDS awareness (God knows what good that'll do in Afganistan). She got kidnapped while sitting in a restaurant with her boyfriend and whisked away in a car. Police tried to stop them by firing at the vehicle, but were unsuccessful. They hit a passing taxi cab instead, killing its driver. :confused:

The captors say they are not Taliban but another group. Isn't that wonderful, two gangs. :mad:

[Cognescenti]

you seriously dont make sense, i suggest you watch the video again and pay attention to all the blurriness. Some CIA amateur work for sure.
lolzz

Probably the same chaps who flew the remote-control missile into the Pentagon. Notice how when it fits the template the CIA can manipulate foreign leaders with mind rays from 10,000 miles away but they are incapable of a little bit of skillful video editing. :giggling:

Time to move the ball forward. The call on the responsibility for 9-11 has already been made.

[جوري]

I don't approve of the kidnapping or killing of random people for what they are and represent, these weren't the ways of the prophet or the companions! although, I can't think of a stupider vigilante than people preaching christianity in a region of the world that is just about ready to explode with rage, but these are seperate issues.. people want to keep their heads on and hearts beating should just learn to stay out of harms way!

peace!

[wilberhum]

If we killed all the stupid people we would solve our over population problems. :-\
But I don't think it is a desirable solution. :thumbs_do

[islamirama]

The koreans that were meant to die were killed and the ones that were meant to go free had been released. I don't see any point of this thread staying open any longer other than pointless talk and unnecessary confrontations.

[wilberhum]

The koreans that were meant to die were killed and the ones that were meant to go free had been released. I don't see any point of this thread staying open any longer other than pointless talk and unnecessary confrontations.

Why were some of them "meant to die"? :-\

They are still holding 19 so why should the thread be closed? :skeleton:

[bruce]

The slaughter of innocents by islamo fascists is not new it has been going on for 1400 years!! As have the excuses made for them by the worlds useful idiots!!

Cheers Bruce

[Keltoi]

The Taliban and Al-Qaeda seem to like kidnapping South Koreans. I remember Kim Ill Sung(I believe that was his name), whom they beheaded on one of their sick video tapes. All these kidnappings and killings do is harden the heart of the world even more against them, if that is possible at this point.

[islamirama]

The Taliban and Al-Qaeda seem to like kidnapping South Koreans. I remember Kim Ill Sung(I believe that was his name), whom they beheaded on one of their sick video tapes. All these kidnappings and killings do is harden the heart of the world even more against them, if that is possible at this point.

S Korean Christians are the missionary type Christians only and what else would they be doing in a war zone other than go preach they lies. Hey if you want to go in a war zone and yell "praise the lord" then don't complain if you loose your head for it.

Why were some of them "meant to die"? :-\

They are still holding 19 so why should the thread be closed? :skeleton:

By "meant to die" i mean it was written in their fate and was just their time. Are they still holding 19? I thought they released them all. Well they should administer the punishment for breaking the law of the land swiftly and without delay so as to set an example to other outsiders who think its ok to break the law because you are occupying their land.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
As islamirama has stated: no real reason for this thread to stay open.