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rubiesand
07-30-2007, 09:51 PM
SARAJEVO, Bosnia-Herzegovina (AP) - Bosnian Muslims celebrate 600 years of Islam in their nation Saturday with a concert of spiritual music, a prayer for peace, and a gentle reminder to Europe: not all of the continent's Muslims are of immigrant origin.

"Recently we have noticed that Europe is obsessed by the immigrant Muslims from the East,'' said Mustafa Ceric, head of the Bosnia Islamic Community, the official institution of Bosnia's Muslims. "This is an opportunity to remind that there are indigenous Muslims in Europe.''

"By celebrating 600 years of Islam here we want to naturalize Islam in Europe,'' he said, adding that Bosnia's Muslims have illustrated how Islam can be harmonized with a European way of life.

Sarajevo is a good place to send a message of peace, since the last century started and ended with a with a war in Sarajevo, Ceric said.

The 1914 assassination in Sarajevo of the crown prince of the Austro-Hungarian empire triggered World War I. And genocide was carried out on Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica during the 1992-1995 Bosnian war.

Islam arrived in Bosnia with the Ottoman occupation in 1463 and found the local population split between Roman Catholicism, a dying indigenous Bosnian Church, and Christian Orthodoxy.

Islam spread over the next 400 years of Ottoman rule, mostly thanks to tax cuts and other benefits given to those who converted. It remains the faith of almost half of Bosnia's population.

The Bosnia Islamic Community is now seeking to impose itself as a model for several million European Muslims who have no organized authority to guide them.

It believes that a lack of organized structure for Europe's Muslims leaves them at the mercy of sometimes dubious imams who often preach radicalization.

"We live in a global world so we Muslims should be aware that global security is our interest,'' Ceric said.

Ceric said that while he understood complaints by Muslims about being rejected in Europe, Muslims also need to make efforts to fit in.

"Europe is not yet ready to accept Muslims the way they deserve but unfortunately, the Muslims are also not living up to their responsibilities in Europe,'' he said. "I think the Muslims are highlighting their presence in Europe in the wrong way.''

That's why the Bosnia Islamic Community has been campaigning for the establishment of a Europe-wide organization for Muslims that would control what is being taught in Islamic schools and mosques.

"I think we Muslims have no choice but to work for our presence in Europe and to show that we are ready to accept the values of human rights, democracy, transparency, accountability, the rule of law and all those values that are also Islamic values,'' he said.-AP




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Haidar_Abbas
08-01-2007, 08:13 PM
Allahu Akbar!!!:sl: :Alhumdill
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SATalha
08-01-2007, 08:31 PM
After all thats happend to our Brothers and Sisters in Bosnia, i hope they can build on this and make Islam in Bosnia a much stronger influence. Inshallah.
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جوري
08-01-2007, 08:43 PM
Ameen
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snakelegs
08-01-2007, 09:36 PM
interesting thread - thanks for posting.
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jzcasejz
08-01-2007, 09:37 PM
As-Salaamu'alaikum

Alhamdulillaah. Really good to hear.
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ACC
08-02-2007, 01:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by jzcasejz
As-Salaamu'alaikum

Alhamdulillaah. Really good to hear.
Man, I would love to see the anniversary of Christianity arriving in Saudi Arabia celebrated. That would be some fun. I would think it has been there for ~ 1,900 years or so.
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The_Prince
08-02-2007, 02:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ACC
Man, I would love to see the anniversary of Christianity arriving in Saudi Arabia celebrated. That would be some fun. I would think it has been there for ~ 1,900 years or so.
erm ur twisting the article, incase you dont know erm majority of bosnia became muslim, i didnt see saudia abandon Islam for christianity as a whole :) the bosnians are celebrating because when Islam came it changed them and they became Muslims and are proud of it.
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north_malaysian
08-06-2007, 01:37 AM
wow... i think Islam came to Bosnia at the same time it arrived in Malaysia too..
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north_malaysian
08-06-2007, 01:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ACC
Man, I would love to see the anniversary of Christianity arriving in Saudi Arabia celebrated. That would be some fun. I would think it has been there for ~ 1,900 years or so.
I think Judaism arrived earlier than Christianity in Saudi Arabia.
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Dahir
08-06-2007, 03:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
wow... i think Islam came to Bosnia at the same time it arrived in Malaysia too..
Wow, really? I thought Islam reached Bosnia in the early days, around 800-900ad. I thought Islam reached Subsaharan Africa and Pacific Asia at the same time; say 900ad to 1100ad.


Hm...:hmm:
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north_malaysian
08-06-2007, 06:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dahir
Wow, really? I thought Islam reached Bosnia in the early days, around 800-900ad. I thought Islam reached Subsaharan Africa and Pacific Asia at the same time; say 900ad to 1100ad.


Hm...:hmm:
Islam came to Malaysia in early 1300s, but only managed to be the largest religion here in the 1400s.

The Chinese accepted Islam much earlier than Malaysians...
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syilla
08-06-2007, 06:56 AM
nm...you can find the history here...maybe you can help me to summarise it.

http://www.eramuslim.com/berita/tha/460719bc.htm?rel

http://www.eramuslim.com/berita/tha/46072b31.htm
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north_malaysian
08-06-2007, 07:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
nm...you can find the history here...maybe you can help me to summarise it.

http://www.eramuslim.com/berita/tha/460719bc.htm?rel

http://www.eramuslim.com/berita/tha/46072b31.htm
whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa sis... you really OPENED UP my eyes!!!!!

:uuh: :uuh: :uuh:

Islam came to the Malay world when Prophet Muhammad was still alive!!!!! This is SHOCKING!!!! Seriously I dont know about it!!!!:blind:
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syilla
08-06-2007, 07:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa sis... you really OPENED UP my eyes!!!!!

:uuh: :uuh: :uuh:

Islam came to the Malay world when Prophet Muhammad was still alive!!!!! This is SHOCKING!!!! Seriously I dont know about it!!!!:blind:
yeah and they have all the proofs
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north_malaysian
08-06-2007, 08:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
yeah and they have all the proofs
And how many Malaysians knew about it? Just both of us? :-\

I am reading that website.. and there are LOTS of shocking stories like GW Bush were born in the 18th Century and the Israelis are planting the trees that Prophet Muhammad mentioned in one of his hadith....
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Skywalker
08-06-2007, 08:18 AM
:sl:

Yeah as far as I know, Malaysia and the Far East were introduced to Islam at the time of the prophet (pbuh), whereas what is now Bosnia was introduced to it through the Ottomans (although I don't really approve of all they did).

Aaaanyways, just so everyone doesn't get overly "yippee-yay" about Bosnian Muslims, I advise people to read about what Islam is really like over there before concluding that it's really great over there and all. I was there last summer and I was less than impressed, to put it mildly. Sure there were some really good brothers and sisters, and I mean really well behaved, following the sunnah and everything, but I saw the vast majority of the population as quite lost. In fact, I don't think that more that 20-30% of the Muslims there fast on Ramadan!

As for the "Grand Mufti" Mustafa Ceric, let's just say that most of the things I've heard about him were not that great. Not only that, but the very organization that runs the Islamic projects over there is probably the most negative influential thing I've ever seen -- they even collect money from common people for their services!

Personally, the only real hope I see for Bosnians is for Muslims from the Middle East to come and clean up some of that mess. The mujahideen that came to fight during the war were doing that to an extent...but then the government banished them.

Things are not right over there. May Allah guide them.

:w:
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north_malaysian
08-06-2007, 08:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skywalker
:sl:

Yeah as far as I know, Malaysia and the Far East were introduced to Islam at the time of the prophet (pbuh), whereas what is now Bosnia was introduced to it through the Ottomans (although I don't really approve of all they did).
From the Indonesian articles that syilla posted... it's said that 15 years after Prophet Muhammad received the first revelation from Allah, the Arab Muslims established a village in the island of Sumatra.... those articles even claimed that the Pharaohs were embalmed with some spices originated from the Malay world...

And these facts are unknown to Malaysians, the government need to revise the school textbooks.
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north_malaysian
08-06-2007, 08:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skywalker

Aaaanyways, just so everyone doesn't get overly "yippee-yay" about Bosnian Muslims, I advise people to read about what Islam is really like over there before concluding that it's really great over there and all. I was there last summer and I was less than impressed, to put it mildly. Sure there were some really good brothers and sisters, and I mean really well behaved, following the sunnah and everything, but I saw the vast majority of the population as quite lost. In fact, I don't think that more that 20-30% of the Muslims there fast on Ramadan!

As for the "Grand Mufti" Mustafa Ceric, let's just say that most of the things I've heard about him were not that great. Not only that, but the very organization that runs the Islamic projects over there is probably the most negative influential thing I've ever seen -- they even collect money from common people for their services!

Personally, the only real hope I see for Bosnians is for Muslims from the Middle East to come and clean up some of that mess. The mujahideen that came to fight during the war were doing that to an extent...but then the government banished them.

Things are not right over there. May Allah guide them.

:w:
Things are not right everywhere........

Not only in Bosnia, I believe our Muslim brethrens in Albania, Kosova, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Central Asia and Russia are having the same problems too... but at least they have one defence..... they were ruled by communists for decades....

but how about Muslims in Malaysia, Indonesia and Turkey... they are not ruled by communists but still there are lots of non-practicing Muslims (well.... not as high as those in ex-communist states, but still in worrying level)

I've seen lots of Malaysian Muslims who dont observe Ramadhan, and those who dont observe the 5 daily prayers is like hundred times more than those who dont observe Ramadhan. It's kinda "usual" to know a Malaysian that observing the Ramadhan but failed to perform 5 daily prayers.....
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syilla
08-06-2007, 08:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian

And these facts are unknown to Malaysians, the government need to revise the school textbooks.
Actually...not just that, the date when parameswara came to Malaysia is also wrong...i think there are alot more that is wrong in the textbook. :-\
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north_malaysian
08-06-2007, 08:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
Actually...not just that, the date when parameswara came to Malaysia is also wrong...i think there are alot more that is wrong in the textbook. :-\
and they still calling Captain Francis Light as the founder of Penang. In fact, the Minangkabaus, Acehnese and Kedahans had been living in Penang centuries before he came... :exhausted
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Amadeus85
08-06-2007, 09:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skywalker

Personally, the only real hope I see for Bosnians is for Muslims from the Middle East to come and clean up some of that mess. The mujahideen that came to fight during the war were doing that to an extent...but then the government banished them.

Things are not right over there. May Allah guide them.

:w:
Most of those mujahedeens are wahabbis. They teach extremely orthodox and intolerant version of islam, they actually would like to transform Bosnia in another taleban. And Most Bosnians follow tolerant version of islam. Besides, in Bosnia many people are non muslims, christians. So for this country tolerance and open minds are extremely important. Wahabbism and radicalism would destroy this co existence. By the way, most Bosnians dislike radicals, because their version of islam differs from the radical one preached by wahhabbi clerics.
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beespreeteam
08-06-2007, 10:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skywalker
:sl:

Yeah as far as I know, Malaysia and the Far East were introduced to Islam at the time of the prophet (pbuh), whereas what is now Bosnia was introduced to it through the Ottomans (although I don't really approve of all they did).

Aaaanyways, just so everyone doesn't get overly "yippee-yay" about Bosnian Muslims, I advise people to read about what Islam is really like over there before concluding that it's really great over there and all. I was there last summer and I was less than impressed, to put it mildly. Sure there were some really good brothers and sisters, and I mean really well behaved, following the sunnah and everything, but I saw the vast majority of the population as quite lost. In fact, I don't think that more that 20-30% of the Muslims there fast on Ramadan!

As for the "Grand Mufti" Mustafa Ceric, let's just say that most of the things I've heard about him were not that great. Not only that, but the very organization that runs the Islamic projects over there is probably the most negative influential thing I've ever seen -- they even collect money from common people for their services!

Personally, the only real hope I see for Bosnians is for Muslims from the Middle East to come and clean up some of that mess. The mujahideen that came to fight during the war were doing that to an extent...but then the government banished them.

Things are not right over there. May Allah guide them.

:w:
This is true of most places, unfortunately. Alhamdulillah there are good people as well.

At the moment, all we can do is make Du'a and give donations.
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Skywalker
08-07-2007, 08:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Most of those mujahedeens are wahabbis. They teach extremely orthodox and intolerant version of islam, they actually would like to transform Bosnia in another taleban.
This is untrue. If anybody is intolerant, it's the Bosnians themselves, but not because of their religion but because of their sense of nationalism. I've seen it first hand. The ones I met that knew some of the mujahideen were very very decent and open-minded people, way more than the average Bosnian.

Also, where do you get the idea that they wanted to create another Taliban in Bosnia??

And Most Bosnians follow tolerant version of islam.
This is true, but unforntunately, they are too tolerant. They tolerate the breaking of Islamic laws like it's nothing big, they tolerate crimes against then non-Muslim neighbours like it's ok, they tolerate theft, indecency, and all things un-Islamic like they didn't matter at all. Is this the kind of tolerance you look up to?
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Amadeus85
08-07-2007, 11:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skywalker


This is true, but unforntunately, they are too tolerant. They tolerate the breaking of Islamic laws like it's nothing big, they tolerate crimes against then non-Muslim neighbours like it's ok, they tolerate theft, indecency, and all things un-Islamic like they didn't matter at all. Is this the kind of tolerance you look up to?
No i mean that they are more tolerant to non muslims than for example radicals in Pakistan or Middle East. In Multicultural and multi religous Bosnia, religious extremism and fanaticism is the last thing that they need.
BTW, i have just read a newspaper, it is said that bosnian state expels mujahedin arabs, because they are threat to countrie's safety.
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Skywalker
08-07-2007, 02:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
No i mean that they are more tolerant to non muslims than for example radicals in Pakistan or Middle East. In Multicultural and multi religous Bosnia, religious extremism and fanaticism is the last thing that they need.
Actually, their nationalism is the last thing they need. Right now there is a lot of tension between the Bosnians (Muslims), Croats, and Serbs living in Bosnia, and it has nothing to do with Islamic teachings. They are proud of their religion, and would fight for it, but they just don't practice it. Islam teaches tolerance towards their non-Muslim neigbours, real Islam at least, and if they really knew that, they wouldn't have many of the conflicts that they have now. I've seen Bosnians building mosques on Croat land in Bosnia just so they can say "this is ours"...but then not one person ever sets foot in that mosque to pray. Can you understand this situation? It's not about religion at all, it's just a cover, it's their sense of nationalism that's driving them to conflict.

I'm not saying they need radicals like Osama Bin Laden teaching over there, but they do need some real Muslims, and from what I hear, a lot of the mujahideen were exactly that. May Allah reward them.

BTW, i have just read a newspaper, it is said that bosnian state expels mujahedin arabs, because they are threat to countrie's safety.
I'm glad you brought this up because I've also seen this first hand and it's quite disturbing. During the war in the mid 1990's, Bosnian Muslims were getting slaughered, their homes plundered, their women raped and brutally murdered, and the international community didn't want to lift a finger. Fortunately many Muslims around the world saw it as a good chance to help out their fellow human beings and fight for Allah's cause and they left their homes and went to Bosnia to fight. I think that if it wasn't for them, there would have been a lot more incidents like Srebrenica.

After the war, it became dangerous for the mujahideen to leave the country because a lot of them left their home countries illegally, and they would be imprisoned if they returned, so a lot of them decided to settle down in Bosnia. A lot of them married and had children there.

From what I experienced there, I didn't see any radicalism or extremism from those people, but instead a fresh new re-introduction to Islamic morals, etiquettes, and values that seemed almost non-existant among the Bosnian Muslims. They didn't affect a lot of places because there weren't very many of them, but the places I've seen seemed to really stand out from among the other places. The had a much better, much friendlier atmosphere to them.

Anyways, to make a long story short, the government wants EU membership like crazy, and they don't want to undermine their eligability by having a population of practicing Muslims. So, they decided to deport all of the mujahideen back to their originating countries, forcing them to leave their new lives and families behind and to face a punishment when they go back, most probably a long prison sentence. Of course they can't do it just like that, what would the international community think of this inhumane act -- so they made up a nice story about the growth of extremism and radicalism through these muhjahideen, and now they have the people's full support in expelling them from their homes and into the waiting hands of their jail guards. Funny how you can use radicalism and extremism as an excuse to do a lot of nasty stuff these days, huh?

The Bosnian embassy here in Egypt is having a tough time with all the men who left their families behind and want to go back to see them. The consulate here told me she can't look them in the eye when she's forced to decline their visa applications. She says she knows it's wrong, but it's politics.

Nice story, huh?
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Amadeus85
08-07-2007, 09:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skywalker

From what I experienced there, I didn't see any radicalism or extremism from those people, but instead a fresh new re-introduction to Islamic morals, etiquettes, and values that seemed almost non-existant among the Bosnian Muslims. They didn't affect a lot of places because there weren't very many of them, but the places I've seen seemed to really stand out from among the other places. The had a much better, much friendlier atmosphere to them.

Anyways, to make a long story short, the government wants EU membership like crazy, and they don't want to undermine their eligability by having a population of practicing Muslims. So, they decided to deport all of the mujahideen back to their originating countries, forcing them to leave their new lives and families behind and to face a punishment when they go back, most probably a long prison sentence. Of course they can't do it just like that, what would the international community think of this inhumane act -- so they made up a nice story about the growth of extremism and radicalism through these muhjahideen,?

Some facts from the article that i have read today. Among mujahedeens in Bosnia there were fro example Chalid Sheik Mohammed- the one who organized 9/11 attacks and Ahmad Omar Said Sheik- leader of the group that killed Daniel Pearl. In Bosnia fought many people connected with AL Queada. Muajahedeens, who were called by Bosnians as wahabbis, tried to take some mosques by force, they forced women to wear clothes like saudi women, and forbid to listen to modern music.
For me it sounds like talebans and Pakistan comes in my mind. But of course you may disagree.
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Al-Zaara
08-08-2007, 06:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skywalker
:sl:

Yeah as far as I know, Malaysia and the Far East were introduced to Islam at the time of the prophet (pbuh), whereas what is now Bosnia was introduced to it through the Ottomans (although I don't really approve of all they did).
Aleykum selam.

Alhamdulillah that the Ottomans introduced Islam there too.

Aaaanyways, just so everyone doesn't get overly "yippee-yay" about Bosnian Muslims, I advise people to read about what Islam is really like over there before concluding that it's really great over there and all. I was there last summer and I was less than impressed, to put it mildly. Sure there were some really good brothers and sisters, and I mean really well behaved, following the sunnah and everything, but I saw the vast majority of the population as quite lost. In fact, I don't think that more that 20-30% of the Muslims there fast on Ramadan!
That's what you think. See even though you saw these twisted minds in their daily life, Ramazan is a whole other thing, that's what I find amazing, not only in Bosnia, but also in Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia... I have been in Kosovo this summer, I can't start to explain how twisted everyone there is (mooore than in Bosnia, as many have said), BUT when it comes to fasting I now must admit and say that more over 80% fast through the whole Ramazan, although they do not pray, do not observe hijab/beard/anything other days. When Ramazan comes, they change from 0 to 10. They even pray on Ramazan, whilst other days they do not.

Good & bad. I can say positive things and negative ones.


Personally, the only real hope I see for Bosnians is for Muslims from the Middle East to come and clean up some of that mess. The mujahideen that came to fight during the war were doing that to an extent...but then the government banished them.

Things are not right over there. May Allah guide them.

:w:
Mulims from the Middle Eats are also twisted. The only hope I see is for Allah subahan wa ta'ala to open their eyes and give them a second-chance. I wouldn't tell the Bosnians to wait for the helping 'mujaheeds' from other places. I'd say tolerant Dawah from great Imaams would be a good deal for them.

format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Things are not right everywhere........
Things are not right anywhere.

I've seen lots of Malaysian Muslims who dont observe Ramadhan, and those who dont observe the 5 daily prayers is like hundred times more than those who dont observe Ramadhan. It's kinda "usual" to know a Malaysian that observing the Ramadhan but failed to perform 5 daily prayers.....
Now this is definitely the state in Kosovo. And as far as I have heard, from people visiting there, it's the same in Bosnia.

format_quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Aaron85
No i mean that they are more tolerant to non muslims than for example radicals in Pakistan or Middle East. In Multicultural and multi religous Bosnia, religious extremism and fanaticism is the last thing that they need.
Definitely agree.
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Skywalker
08-08-2007, 07:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Some facts from the article that i have read today. Among mujahedeens in Bosnia there were fro example Chalid Sheik Mohammed- the one who organized 9/11 attacks and Ahmad Omar Said Sheik- leader of the group that killed Daniel Pearl. In Bosnia fought many people connected with AL Queada. Muajahedeens, who were called by Bosnians as wahabbis, tried to take some mosques by force, they forced women to wear clothes like saudi women, and forbid to listen to modern music.
For me it sounds like talebans and Pakistan comes in my mind. But of course you may disagree.
If it's the truth, then I would never disagree, but I don't think that this was the truth. I think it's very possible that a percentage of the mujahideen were as you describe, but I'd say the majority didn't have anything to do with Taliban or Al-Qa3da. From the places that I visited, I didn't get any hint that there was anything extreme going on -- the places that were influenced by these people were closer to Islam in the Middle East, for example in Egypt, than anything out of the mind of an extremist.

Could you post a link to your article?

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Zaara
That's what you think. See even though you saw these twisted minds in their daily life, Ramazan is a whole other thing, that's what I find amazing, not only in Bosnia, but also in Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia... I have been in Kosovo this summer, I can't start to explain how twisted everyone there is (mooore than in Bosnia, as many have said), BUT when it comes to fasting I now must admit and say that more over 80% fast through the whole Ramazan, although they do not pray, do not observe hijab/beard/anything other days. When Ramazan comes, they change from 0 to 10. They even pray on Ramazan, whilst other days they do not.
Then it's obvious that Kosovo is a lot better than Bosnia when it comes to fasting in Ramadan. Ramadan in Bosnia is something that they can't wait to pass, whereas for real Muslims, it should be something that they can't wait to come. Perhaps the Kosovans can one day help the Bosnians out in seeing the light.

Muslims from the Middle East are also twisted. The only hope I see is for Allah subahan wa ta'ala to open their eyes and give them a second-chance.
There are "twisted people" wherever you go, but at least in the Middle East, things that are haraam are not socially acceptable like they are in Bosnia. Drinking, extra-marital relations, not praying or fasting, etc. In the Middle east, people would criticise you if you do any of those things, whereas in Bosnia, people wouldn't care -- they might even encourage you to do them.
Other than that, there is a much, much higher percentage of people in Egypt for example that are good Muslims than the percentage in Bosnia.

I wouldn't tell the Bosnians to wait for the helping 'mujaheeds' from other places. I'd say tolerant Dawah from great Imaams would be a good deal for them.
I agree, I just used the mujahideen as an example to show that people can help them when they want. In fact, I'd love to see more imams come to the country from the Middle East and other places and teach the people there more about their religion and show them how real Muslims live.

May Allah guide them and guide us all to the right path. Ameen.
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