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iomari
07-31-2007, 09:36 AM
Salaam Alaikum,

I have spent great efforts debating with non Muslims on various aspects of religion and with great success thanks to Allah's glorious teaching. But I would like for someone to explain the following Hadith and to also tell me if it is authentic.


Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4348

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.
Mas Salaam
Ibrahim Salim Omari
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- Qatada -
07-31-2007, 11:28 AM
:wasalamex


There's a clear explanation of this somewhere by brother Ansar, insha Allaah i'll try to find it. It's somewhere on the forum, but it was posted a long time ago.


Here's the links:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/20274-true-insulting-prophet.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/15217-assassinations.html
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iomari
07-31-2007, 11:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
:wasalamex


There's a clear explanation of this somewhere by brother Ansar, insha Allaah i'll try to find it. It's somewhere on the forum, but it was posted a long time ago.
Salaam,

I would be greatly appreciative if you could source the answer for me.

Mas Salaam
Reply

- Qatada -
07-31-2007, 11:52 AM
:salamext:


I've private messaged brother Ansar and insha Allaah if he comes online today, he will respond to it clearly. :) I can't find the refutation yet, but i am still searching.
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iomari
07-31-2007, 11:54 AM
thank you.
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iomari
08-02-2007, 05:38 AM
In fact, that whole book 38 Titled: "Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)" has many stories that seem extremely questionable. But I'll hold my opinion until I hear an explanation.

Please if someone can explain it would be very beneficial for many people.I would quote the whole book here but I don't know if it's too big to post.

Mas Salaam
Ibrahim Salim Omari
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doorster
08-02-2007, 07:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by iomari
In fact, that whole book 38 Titled: "Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)" has many stories that seem extremely questionable. But I'll hold my opinion until I hear an explanation.

Please if someone can explain it would be very beneficial for many people. If you look at the first hadith of that book:



Then you will that this contradicts many of the other "sayings" in the same book. I would quote the whole book here book I don't know if it's too big to post.

Mas Salaam
Ibrahim Salim Omari
It might just persuade me to talk to you and gladly explain but I fear that it is trap and amount of explanation will suffice as you will nitpick and or pretend not to understand. But if some one is willing to moderate in real time as we talk in real time, I bet I can send you on your way in less then 30 minutes one way or the other,

And I get to choose the moderators namely Bros, Madani and Qtada and Sr. Al mawahada and almuminas

wasalam alaikum to Muslims
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iomari
08-02-2007, 07:33 AM
It might just persuade me to talk to you and gladly explain but I fear that it is trap and amount of explanation will suffice as you will nitpick and or pretend not to understand. But if some one is willing to moderate in real time as we talk in real time, I bet I can send you on your way in less then 30 minutes one way or the other,
Salaam,

My brother, you misunderstand who I am and what I do. I am not one looking for ways to condemn Islam. I am a devout Muslim who spends must time "enlightening" Muslims and non Muslims alike. Please read my book to know my mindset.



ftp://faith:knowledge@71.18.106.118/faith/faith.pdf

It's not complete yet but Insha Allah very soon it will be published.

BTW, I have retracted the earlier quote from the first hadith of book 38. I missed the part about it only applies to Muslims.

Having said this, I don't think it's too much to ask for a simple explanation. Of course I am a man of reason and if the explanation is unreasonable, giving the understanding I have of the nature of the Prophet (PBUH), then I will surely reject these as weak and unauthentic. But if the explanation makes since then i'll know how to defend it.

For you to know how serious this is, here is the link that first brought my attention to these sayings:

www faithfreedom org
/Articles/sina/why_i_left_islam.htm

The above article was written by someone who left Islam because of these sayings.

I found the whole article very frustrating so I have been seeking a response. So please explain to me. But I would love to discuss with you online if you want.

Mas Salaam
Ibrahim Salim Omari
Reply

Muslim Woman
08-06-2007, 01:32 AM
:sl:

bro , u may ask here.

Ask About Islam

you may submit your questions here at 08:00 GMT on Monday, August 6th, 2007.

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1121601592961&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FPage%2FAskAboutIslamCounselingE
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believer
08-06-2007, 11:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by iomari
Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.
Salaamu alaikum warahmatullah Brother....

I don't understand what the last sentence from that hadith means... does it mean - there is no punishment that can suffice for the death of that woman?

since that woman-slave is also pregnant when she was killed, please correct me if I misunderstood it.
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iomari
08-06-2007, 12:10 PM
Salaam,

my understanding of the last line of the hadith is to say that the act committed was righteous.

This is also the understanding of all the opponents of Islam. As if the Prophet (PBUH) condoned it.

Mas Salaam
Reply

believer
08-06-2007, 01:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by iomari
Salaam,

my understanding of the last line of the hadith is to say that the act committed was righteous.

This is also the understanding of all the opponents of Islam. As if the Prophet (PBUH) condoned it.

Mas Salaam
Salaam Brother...

I understand that the slave-woman whom this man possess in his right hand - was also the mother of his two sons... as well as the third which was still in her womb at the time he killed her.

I thought - or I may be wrong in understanding the last part... that; since he killed a woman with the unborn child... and since he is the father of that child and the master of that slave-woman... there is no conceivable punishment that can apply to this case... due to the following reasons:

1. who's going to take care of the 2 sons if they kill the father/master of that slave-woman... it wouldn't be right justice for the 2 sons.

2. That his life is not enough to pay the two lives he destroyed - (i.e., the mother and the unborn child).

I can't imagine the Prophet (RAW) would condone such an act just for the reason that that Man claimed of the offense and violation of the slave-woman.

I believe that the Prophet needed to balance his leadership that time since the spread of Islam was more important and that to create deterrent scenarios for the detractors/enemies of Islam must be set firm in order for the enemies to be kept at bay.

The Man being a Muslim himself did not act according to Islamic ways in treating Mushriks... or if that woman was virtually a non-Muslim...

Therefore, this case reminds me of the case of the 2 woman fighting over the right over a child who went to King Solaiman (AS)... When King Solaiman (Solomon) AS... told the two woman that they can have both the child and that the child be cut in half. - same thing. some cases cannot be resolved over by human laws.

However, such acts or commissions would not even have to happen in the first place if and only if people would follow or live their lives according to Islam.

Please, correct me if I misunderstood the story. I am only understanding it and basing it according to the nature of Gods' Prophets' wisdom and ways over worldly matters.


May Allah bless us with enlightenment and wisdom and Divine Guidance... Ameen.
Reply

iomari
08-06-2007, 02:17 PM
Salaam,

I see some sense in your interpretation but at the same time i believe that 99 out of 100 people would not read all that meaning into the last line of the hadith. If you want to argue that no one would have been left to fend for the children then how about cases where a woman guilty of adultry and pregnant was stoned to death after she delivered. Who would take care of the baby? Simple, she was not the only woman alive so any other willing woman could have taken over just like any other able man could have taken over the responsibility of the blind man. Ami I making sense. But don't get me wrong, I still believe that the hadith must be weak or is missing some crucial info.

But the real problem arises when you read some of the other "sayings" from that same book 38. For instance:

Book 38, Number 4349:

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.
Now does not paying recompense mean that the man was not guilty because she was not a Muslim? I don't think so. Our beloved Prophet (PBUH) honored all life, not just Muslims. Besides, we all know the story of the woman who used to throw garbage in front of the Prophet's (PBUH) house and how he treated her. But for the benefit of our readers who don't know, this woman who hated the Prophet (PBUH) used to throw her trash at his gate. She did this everyday and He ignored it. One day he found no trash and quickly went to see if the woman was ok because he thought that maybe she was sick. This is the Prophet that we have all grown to love. I think throwing trash is worst than saying bad things. Don't you?

Mas Salaam
Ibrahim Salim Omari
Reply

believer
08-06-2007, 02:28 PM
Salaam Brother!

I totally agree... thank you for this elightening encounter.

The Hadith of that woman throwing trash on the Prophets path way was also mentioned in the Qur'an in one of the last short Surrahs.

since the Prophet (RAW) - make it all prophets... donot carry the mission to uplift themselves or exult themselves above any other human... therefore, it is but natural for them to be ignoring these petty attitudes.

One thing I know why these women abuse the prophet is because he was the messenger who recited about the Priveledge of a Muslim Man to marry 4 Women... as long as he can treat them all equally.

I believe, that - the command of Allah (SWT) applies in these cases.

That the Prophets mission is only to convey the message and promise of Paradise and the Warning of Hell... it is not his job to Babysit the ummah... whatever their reaction is to be left to Allah (SWT) alone. Therefore, their offenses will be left to be judged by Allah (SWT) alone.

again... please enlighten me brother if I am short of undertanding the wisdom behind it.

Khazak alakhair
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NoName55
08-06-2007, 03:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by iomari
Salaam,

..........how about cases where a woman guilty of adultry and pregnant was stoned to death after she delivered. Who would take care of the baby?..........
Provide reference!!!
Reply

iomari
08-06-2007, 08:37 PM
Salaam,

One thing I know why these women abuse the prophet is because he was the messenger who recited about the Priveledge of a Muslim Man to marry 4 Women... as long as he can treat them all equally.
My brother, I don't want to get off topic but these women couldn't be acting off the 4 women rule. That rule was there to limit the number of wives because prior to this ruling there was no limit to how many wives. And this "no limit" way of life was not only among the Pagans but the Christians and Jews as well. And the proper explanation of the rule is not to treat them "equally" but to treat them with justice. There is a big difference. it's virtually impossible to treat multiple wives "equally". But one should always be just.

Now back to the topic, I have a book that I'm almost finished. You can download it if you look in the "discovery" section of this forum. But in light of this hadith, I will not finish this book until I can include this hadith and either prove it's false or explain it's meaning. If you search the web for "Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4348" you will find many non Muslims using this to condemn Islam. Especially that Shayton Inspired site "answering Islam". I refuse to let this happen so I must find the answer. In case you can't find my book link its:


ftp://faith:knowledge@71.18.106.118/faith/faith.pdf

Mas Salaam
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NoName55
08-06-2007, 08:47 PM
reply to http://www.islamicboard.com/802601-post16.html
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iomari
08-06-2007, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
Provide reference!!!
Here is the reference you asked. It's from Sahih Book 17.

Book 017, Number 4207:

Imran b. Husain reported that a woman from Juhaina came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and she had become pregnant because of adultery. She said: Allah's Apostle, I have done something for which (prescribed punishment) must be imposed upon me, so impose that. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) called her master and said: Treat her well, and when she delivers bring her to me. He did accordingly. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about her and her clothes were tied around her and then he commanded and she was stoned to death. He then prayed over her (dead body). Thereupon Umar said to him: Allah's Apostle, you offer prayer for her, whereas she had committed adultery! Thereupon he said: She has made such a repentance that if it were to be divided among seventy men of Medina, it would be enough. Have you found any repentance better than this that she sacrificed her life for Allah, the Majestic?
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believer
08-07-2007, 07:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by iomari
Salaam,



My brother, I don't want to get off topic but these women couldn't be acting off the 4 women rule. That rule was there to limit the number of wives because prior to this ruling there was no limit to how many wives. And this "no limit" way of life was not only among the Pagans but the Christians and Jews as well. And the proper explanation of the rule is not to treat them "equally" but to treat them with justice. There is a big difference. it's virtually impossible to treat multiple wives "equally". But one should always be just.

Now back to the topic, I have a book that I'm almost finished. You can download it if you look in the "discovery" section of this forum. But in light of this hadith, I will not finish this book until I can include this hadith and either prove it's false or explain it's meaning. If you search the web for "Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4348" you will find many non Muslims using this to condemn Islam. Especially that Shayton Inspired site "answering Islam". I refuse to let this happen so I must find the answer. In case you can't find my book link its:


ftp://faith:knowledge@71.18.106.118/faith/faith.pdf

Mas Salaam

Salaam Brother... - Interesting!

This story is about a "SELF-CONFESSED" woman believer who voluntarily submitted herself for punishment because of her Cardinal Sin.

Everybody knows that adultery is a crime punishable by - in most cases if caught in the act - death in the hands of a jealous husband... nothing can be more dangerous than the fury of a jealous husband. - Imagine that - what more if were talking about the fury of God; Allah SWT Himself?

The woman probably came to the realization that she would rather be repentig while in this life tha to be forever condemned in the hereafters' Hellfire.

What the woman did was to impose on herself a divine purification act.

Now going back to present situation... in the West, many women commit adultery... if they are not Muslim - then, there is no problem... unless they are caught by their husbands. In a Muslim world where there are real Muslim women... who are God-fearing... it is unlikely for them to commit big sins like Shirk nor Adultery nor Suicide... this is close to non-existent in a real Islamic community. However, should there be a case... there is no compulsion for the woman to confess her sins in public... (they normally don't)

she can confess directly to God, since Muslims have direct access to God anyway-no need for any intercessors whatsoever.

Can you imagine a society who comdemns such sins of the flesh who would tolerate an adulterous woman confessing already in the open? What would be the impact? - it can be a precedence. If allowed - then it will encourage many to tolerate such act... what would make that society any different from the West?

The issue in this case is.... public admission of your sins. Technically, If an offender would not confess in public and that no one will ever find out the violation or crime... then they are not going to be punished. (in this life anyway). This is applicable in all societies.

But, in Islam... this life is not as important as the life hereafter. So, dying to attain purification or salvation is much better than living under a big lie. For whatever action each of us do, it is Allah who is going to be the judge of it... not Men.

As Matt Monroe's song would put it "To be willing to march into Hell - for a Heavenly Cause..." - All death punishment is concieved to be an UnGodly act by Non-Muslims... but - who's going to clean up the mess?

In other words... if a person commits a grave sin with a punishment of death... He or she has the choice to choose her escape roads. There's a road for Redemption... Two roads... The big road is through direct-confession to God. and the Narrow road - Confesion to the offended person out of fear of God.

And then, there's the other Big, wide road... Denial. A denial that can pass even the latest lie detector apparatus. Ever wonder why Westerners are more resltless and nervous with stress and fear? - These are merely symptoms of denials.

If you are connected to God and are pure in heart, mind and spirit... then there is nothing to fear or to grieve. We are insulting God if we worry or Fear because it means we don't rely or trust Him 100%. God made a promise to his servants that we should not fear anything if we believe, submit and do righteous deeds.

Fear nothing if we feel we have done our obligations to God and to Man... Fear not even death.

Brother... this is only my own personal impression on the hadith you have prsented. I don't know if other people look at it the way I do... but I hope I am made an instrument to shed some light.

May Allah bless you more with your book and increase your iman and wisdom to pursue your dawa.... Ameen!
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NoName55
08-07-2007, 09:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by believer


Brother... this is only my own personal impression on the hadith you have prsented. I don't know if other people look at it the way I do... but I hope I am made an instrument to shed some light.

May Allah bless you more with your book and increase your iman and wisdom to pursue your dawa.... Ameen!
:sl:

You are doing beautifully fine :) good man!

:w:

------------------------------------------------------
any one see difference between these 2 quotes below?
Originally Posted by iomari


Salaam,

..........how about cases where a woman guilty of adultry and pregnant was stoned to death after she delivered. Who would take care of the baby?..........
Book 017, Number 4207:

Imran b. Husain reported that a woman from Juhaina came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and she had become pregnant because of adultery. She said: Allah's Apostle, I have done something for which (prescribed punishment) must be imposed upon me, so impose that. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) called her master and said: Treat her well, and when she delivers bring her to me. He did accordingly. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about her and her clothes were tied around her and then he commanded and she was stoned to death. He then prayed over her (dead body). Thereupon Umar said to him: Allah's Apostle, you offer prayer for her, whereas she had committed adultery! Thereupon he said: She has made such a repentance that if it were to be divided among seventy men of Medina, it would be enough. Have you found any repentance better than this that she sacrificed her life for Allah, the Majestic?
Reply

iomari
08-09-2007, 06:17 AM
Salaam

Brother... this is only my own personal impression on the hadith you have prsented. I don't know if other people look at it the way I do... but I hope I am made an instrument to shed some light.

May Allah bless you more with your book and increase your iman and wisdom to pursue your dawa.... Ameen!
I hope that no one gets the impression that I have a problem with the hadith about the confession of the pregnant woman because I don't. I only mentioned it to make it clear that the the explanation that one brother gave about the blind man killing the pregnant slave did not hold water with me. His view was that the Prophet said "no retaliation" because there would be no one to care for the children. My point was if that was the case then there would have been some leniency for the confessed adulterous pregnant woman.

For the record, I fully understand and agree with "believer's" views in the above post.

But I'm still looking for an explanation for the "blind man" hadith that I posted earlier.

Mas Salaam
Reply

believer
08-09-2007, 10:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by iomari
Salaam

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4348

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother (This could perhaps be more appropriately repharased to: Slave/Mistress) who used to abuse (can also be: bad mouth) the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. (It is common for pregnant women to have these tantrums) He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. (very normal) One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there (she gave birth accidentally and the child was also stabbed in the process). When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. (So it wasn't a self-confessed sin... ) Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. (This is the Blind Mans' allegation... And she's not alive anymore to defend herself... No Witnesses?) I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, (an indication of endearment wiht her.)and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you (Is the blind Man trying to flatter the Prophet here???). So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her. (and he expects the prophet to appreciate that?)
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood. (since the Blind Man is handicapped already - and for anyone who is in his situation - it's punishment enough to be living bearing this heavy guilt)

If I was that Blind Man... Having to undergo the Death Penalty for what I did is nothing compared to being left alive to bear the guilt... and to be reminded everyday of my mistake since I have to be living with my two sons who are like pearls to me. Everytime they will ask for food... I will be reminded of the absence of their Mother... - I would never be able to bear the thought of the grave crime I did. I would rather be dead as well. It will be a living hell already. EVery night will always be a sad night.

Our wives/ mistresses, are still the best housekeeper and baby sitters for our children. And our childrens' paradise is at their feet... I can't bear the torture going on inside that Blind Man. (pressuming he is a believer/ Muslim)

I believe strongly - that this is the big and clear picture. The Prophet Rasullallah will only be lightening the punishment if he impose the death penalty on that Blind Man. The right thing would be to allow that Man to live the rest of his earthly life in total and complete repentance.

This is my piece on it. What do you think? ^o)
Reply

Ebtisweetsam
08-09-2007, 10:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by believer
If I was that Blind Man... Having to undergo the Death Penalty for what I did is nothing compared to being left alive to bear the guilt... and to be reminded everyday of my mistake since I have to be living with my two sons who are like pearls to me. Everytime they will ask for food... I will be reminded of the absence of their Mother... - I would never be able to bear the thought of the grave crime I did. I would rather be dead as well. It will be a living hell already. EVery night will always be a sad night.

Our wives/ mistresses, are still the best housekeeper and baby sitters for our children. And our childrens' paradise is at their feet... I can't bear the torture going on inside that Blind Man. (pressuming he is a believer/ Muslim)

I believe strongly - that this is the big and clear picture. The Prophet Rasullallah will only be lightening the punishment if he impose the death penalty on that Blind Man. The right thing would be to allow that Man to live the rest of his earthly life in total and complete repentance.

This is my piece on it. What do you think? ^o)
:sl: Are the red bits ur opinion or from a book? Im just curious....:w:
Reply

believer
08-09-2007, 10:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
:sl: Are the red bits ur opinion or from a book? Im just curious....:w:
The Red fonts are only my opinion... not to be taken seriously as official. :giggling:
Reply

InToTheRain
08-09-2007, 05:53 PM
:sl:

This may help bro;

[PIE]Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet(pbuh) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (pbuh) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet(pbuh) was informed about it. He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up. He sat before the Prophet (pbuh) and said:

Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her. Thereupon the Prophet (pbuh) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.
[/PIE]

[PIE]Although the Hadith in consideration, no doubt, is reported with continuity of the chain of narrators who are mostly deemed reliable by the scholars of the science of Hadith yet what makes the Hadith slightly questionable is its single chain of narrators: it is only Abdullah Bin Abbas who told Ikrama who told Uthman al Shahham, who narrated it to only two people. The report remained confined to only a single person in each of the first three generations. An incident, which took place before a gathering of Muslims and a decision, so important was made about an apparently brutal murder; reason demands should have been quoted by a large number of narrators.

Moreover, the narrative does not find mention in any of the more recognized books of Hadith like Mu'atta of Imam Mailk, Sahih of Muslim and Sahih of Bukhari. Only those who are very lenient about the acceptance of traditions have reported it.

Finally, scholars dealing with the personalities of the narrators are not unanimously positive about the personality and reports of Uthman al Shahham. Ya'ya Bin Saeed al-Qattan comments that his traditions are sometimes accepted and sometimes not. (Meezanul-I`tidal vol.5 page 76 CD ed.) Nisaai is reported to have said that he (Uthman-al-Shaham) was not reliable. (Meezanul-I`tidal vol.5 page 76 CD ed.) Bukhari didn't take any report from him and he is dealt with among Zuafaa in Al-kamil-fi-Zuafaa.

Leaving the checks on its narrators and their reliability aside we have enough problems in ascertaining the truth about the matter. Many important facts about the incident remain unanswered. Who was the woman? To which faith did she belong? What made her stick to her habit of slandering the Prophet (sws)? Did the Prophet already know her abusing him? Did he himself try to talk her out of her mischief or did he advise his companion to prevent her from doing that? What was the phase of the prophethood when the incident occurred? With every bit of information supplied the explanation of the act of the prophet may change.
Whatever the situation might have been, we are bound to admit that every action of the Prophet should be in harmony with the moral and legal teaching of the religion. If an act ascribed to the Prophet (sws) does not fit into the moral status of a messenger, we should not hesitate to renounce it. However the tradition under consideration can very conveniently be explained in the light of the religious sources. An explanation follows:

The Qur'an tells us that Muhammad (sws) was not only a Prophet (nabi) but also a messenger (Rasu'l) of Allah. The Qur'an tells us that when Allah sends His messenger in a people, these people are not allowed to live on Allah's earth if they reject the messenger. It tells us that these people are given time in which to make up their minds and to present all their objections against the messenger (Rasu'l). It tells us that when the Al-knowing Allah decides that these people have been given adequate time and that they are now absolutely clear of the truthfulness of the messenger and thus are not left with any excuse for their rejection but still are persistent in their rejection then Allah directs his prophet to migrate from the area and then he destroys all those who have rejected his messenger. The Qur'an refers to the peoples (nations of the messengers of old - Noah, Hood, Lot, Shoaib, Saaleh and Moses (pbuh)- and narrates the result of their rejection. It declares to the direct addressees of Muhammad (sws) that if they don't accept the message of Allah's messenger (Muhammad) their fate shall be no different from those nations that have gone before them. (Surah al-Qamar the whole Surah especially verse no 43-45)

In short the Qur'an says it is the unalterable law of Allah that when he sends his messenger in a people, these particular people are left with no option but to accept his message or to face the punishment of death and sometimes complete annihilation.

The Qur'an goes further to tell us how this punishment was implemented on the polytheists from among the direct addressees of the Prophet (sws). It tells us that although the previous nations of the messengers of Allah were annihilated because of their rejection through (apparently) natural calamities the companions of Muhammad (sws) because Allah has given them rule in a land (Medina) shall fight the rejecters and through these believers shall Allah implement his punishment (al_Tauba 9:14-16). It directs them that the Mushrikeen should be killed without any exception. They should only be allowed to live if they accept Islam (al-Taubah 9:5). On the other hand, it also directs them that the Jews and the Christians (because they weren't polytheists I.e. Mushrikeen) even if they don't enter the folds of Islam, they may be allowed to live if they accept to live under the Muslim rule and agree to pay the Jizyah (Al-Taubah 9:29). Thus the Prophet (sws) sent his messenger who declared at the time of Hajj that no one from among the rejecting polytheists shall be allowed to live after the prohibited months, if he does not accept Islam. As a result of this declaration, most of the people who previously were polytheists, accepted Islam and thus the punishment of Allah was avoided.

In my opinion, the decision is based on the fact that the murder of the woman is an implementation of the punishment to which all the direct addressees of the prophet would have been subject had they not accepted the faith. It is obvious from the tradition that the incident occurred after the migration to Madina. And migration in the preaching mission of a messenger of God is a phase when all the rejecters of the faith lose the right of being allowed to live on the earth. So did the woman. Now somebody killed her and the person who killed her is acquitted of the crime because he implemented a punishment, to which all the rejecters would have been subjected to, in any case.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Tariq Mahmood Hashmi
September 25, 2002

Source
[/PIE]

Let's not forget that Mohammad(SAW) was not given the laws and the Qur'an overnight. anyone one who has studied how the Arabs were prior to Islam will know they were Barbaric and full of pride. The man did an evil act and Truely feared what he done as he was trembling.

"Forgiveness is only incumbent on Allah towards those who do evil out of ignorance and then turn quickly (in repentance) to Allah. Toward them will Allah turn in mercy; for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom." (4:17)

[PIE]In order for forgiveness to be accepted, these conditions should be met:

(1) The crime is committed out of ignorance, not with the intention that, "Let us go ahead and commit this crime as Allah is forgiving, so He will forgive us.";

(2) Quickly turn into shame and repentance after committing a crime out of ignorance;

(3) After asking for forgiveness, make a promise or pledge to "mend his ways", and to stick to his promise. Let us examine verses of Quran.

"...if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented and amended (your conduct), lo! Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (6:54)

Source
[/PIE]

[PIE]The Word was sent down to Muhammad (saas) 14 centuries ago, in the land of Arabia, and this event happened most likely somewhere around the Hijra. I'm not implying that "times have changed," rather it is that I am aware of the Islamic (not necessarily Muslim) stance on the issue of vigilantism. Vigilantism is strictly prohibited in the religion and the person that commits this particular crime incurs nothing but wrath from the Divine. Prophet Muhammad (saas) was a man of superior intellect, he was extremely careful in making the right decision(s) each day and each night; he bore a heavy burden from the Lord and was cognizant of the potential consequences of each choice he would make in this lifetime. Hudud, or punishment, is carried out solely by the authorities in charge within an Islamic state; this is the legal ruling.

If the Messenger (saas) were here we would gain a better understanding of the matter, we cannot see the hadith in it's entire context. For those of you who have read the Seera (life-story) of the Messenger, I ask you how many times had Muhammad prevented his companions from killing a sinner or an enemy of his? Many! Consider the story of the man who ran upto to the Prophet (saas) and nearly choked him out concerning a garment (I believe it was) the Prophet was wearing which he had borrowed from this inidividual. A sahabi was ready to retaliate, but the Prophet forbade so. Observe the hadith(s) about the Jewish man who met the Messenger in order to test him: he began ridiculing and insulting Muhammad (saas), eager to witness the response. Upon noticing the Prophet's calmness and his refusal to respond in an equally aggressive manner he embraced him as the Messenger.

I also admire the story of Christ (a.s) in the book of John where Jesus is described to have prevented the Jews from stoning the lady guilty for adultery. This does not indicate that Jesus (a.s) was sent to abolish the Law, [this he denies in the Bible] every messenger is appointed with a set of unique instructions to guide a unique commmunity of people. The adulteress the Prophet had executed literally asked for her punishment. Muhammad turned away from her, almost pretending not hear, for Muhammad was not a fan of blood and gore. The woman was eventually stoned after she kept on requesting an execution, after she gave birth that is. Another woman was killed for the same crime without Muhammad's knowledge. When Muhammad learned of this, he rebuked the ones responsible for the hudud, for he was informed that the lady had repented. But at the same time, Muhammad, God's own Prophet, was commanded to obey the divine Law, as all prophets were. Isa (a.s) is reported to have threatened a false prophetess, whom he called a "Jezebel," with capital punishment, for her actions were a misguidance to his people, - she could have lead the believers astray into the eternal blaze of Hell.

A while ago I saw The 10 Commandments (the new version) and I watched how Moses (a.s) had to prepare the same punishment for a man and a woman that had committed adultery. He was hesitant, for he was merciful by nature, however he was compelled to adhere to the Law of the Lord for one special reason: God always knows best. He wept and out to God after the incident and sought further clarification from Him concerning the nature of his mission, which he eventually received. Who knows, perhaps the man of the hadith was mentally challenged, in addition to being blind. Of a surety, Muhammad (saas) prohibited the vigilant hudud of death. I'd take Karen Armstrong's advice, as she has spent years studying the amazing life of the holy Prophet. And Karen is pretty straight forward.[/PIE]

[PIE]I have personally seen people turn a blind eye to facts in order to justify their prejudice against Islam. All the people on the forum as "Faith Freedom International" refuse to acknowledge anything good about Islam, Muslims, or Muhammad. It is quite absurd. Even if you don't believe he is a prophet, you should at least acknowledge the fact that he is a social reformer who did nothing but benefit the Arabia in general. But when people reject a religion, especially one that proselytizes a lot, the more they demonize it, the safer they feel about not being a part of it. That is why you will find the most demonizing comments coming from apostates. This is the difference between rejecting Islam, and just not being a Muslim.[/PIE]

May Allah(SWT) guide us to Seerat Al-Mustaqeem
Reply

Muhammad
08-11-2007, 01:55 PM
:sl:

Please also have a look at these threads:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...g-prophet.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...sinations.html
Reply

believer
08-11-2007, 03:10 PM
Salaamualaikum Muhammad!

Hi Iomarie Bro!

I visited the link posted by Muhammad and it is very helpful

I copy pasted it for you... check this out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nimrod
Ansar Al-‘Adl, on a different thread I posted about some folks being killed for insulting Muhammad, your reply seem to indicate that no one was ever or had ever been killed for simply insulting Muhammad.

Hi Nimrod,
See the following thread were all historical cases were discussed:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...sinations.html (Assassinations)

The conclusion was that Prophet Muhammad pbuh never allowed anyone to be killed for personal insults - he was the most forgiving to the extent that he forgave one who tried to poison him, and he forgave those who persecuted his followers and drove him out of his home.

With regard to the case you mention:

Quote:
Abu Dawood (4361) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that a blind man had a freed concubine (umm walad) who used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him. He told her not to do that but she did not stop, and he rebuked her but she did not heed him. One night, when she started to say bad things about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and insult him, he took a short sword or dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it and killed her. The following morning that was mentioned to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He called the people together and said, “I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right over him that he should stand up.” The blind man stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I am the one who did it; she used to insult you and say bad things about you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not give up her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was kind to me. Last night she began to insult you and say bad things about you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.” Thereupon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Bear witness, there is no blood money due for her.”

Were these killings an example of “vigilante justice” or were the killers agents of the state?

The man was not an agent of the state so the Prophet Muhammad pbuh summoned all the people together for proper investigation of this incident. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh was the head of the state. After suitable investigation, the Prophet gave the ruling that no blood money was due and he dismissed the case. . Therefore, this was something decided upon by the court. We see similar dismissals all the time in manslaughter cases in courts throughout the world. As for why the case was dismissed, this was due to the fact that the woman was under the protection of the state and had violated her pledge despite having been advised continuously against it; this woman also happened to be under the possesion of the man so it was not a case of vigilante justice either.

It should be noted that the authenticity of the narration is not certain. Shaykh Muhammad Al-Qannâs writes:
Some scholars do not see the hadîth of the blind man as being authentic. One of the narrators of this hadîth is `Uthmân al-Shahhâm. Even though some scholars declared him as trustworthy, one of the senior hadîth critics, Yahyâ b. Sa`îd al-Qattân, did not trust him. Also, Imam al-Nasâ’î said: “He is not strong.”
Whether the narration is authentic or not, it provides no support for vigilante justice which is unanimously ruled unlawful in Islamic Shari'ah.

Regards




No wonder...
Reply

IslamistheTruth
08-12-2007, 04:38 AM
As for why the case was dismissed, this was due to the fact that the woman was under the protection of the state and had violated her pledge despite having been advised continuously against it; this woman also happened to be under the possesion of the man so it was not a case of vigilante justice either.
So, if the slave woman is in the man's possesion..he can kill her without a fair trial?
Reply

IslamistheTruth
08-12-2007, 04:47 AM
This thread is good because I (along with some other sisters)have been questioning this hadith lately, and it's just been hard to make sense out of it.
Reply

NoName55
08-12-2007, 11:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IslamistheTruth
So, if the slave woman is in the man's possesion..he can kill her without a fair trial?
could you please read the whole thread? or is it to much to ask? :(
Reply

IslamistheTruth
08-12-2007, 05:08 PM
I didddd. :( you could just point out where I'm wrong..because I know I spent time and read the whole thing.. I'll do it again after work. inshAllah.
Reply

NoName55
08-12-2007, 05:14 PM
http://www.islamicboard.com/806956-post29.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/806986-post30.html

It should be noted that the authenticity of the narration is not certain.

Shaykh Muhammad Al-Qannâs writes:

Some scholars do not see the hadîth of the blind man as being authentic. One of the narrators of this hadîth is `Uthmân al-Shahhâm. Even though some scholars declared him as trustworthy, one of the senior hadîth critics, Yahyâ b. Sa`îd al-Qattân, did not trust him. Also, Imam al-Nasâ’î said: “He is not strong.”

Whether the narration is authentic or not, it provides no support for vigilante justice which is unanimously ruled unlawful in Islamic Shari'ah.
Reply

believer
08-16-2007, 04:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IslamistheTruth
So, if the slave woman is in the man's possesion..he can kill her without a fair trial?
Salaamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakathu!

I disagree.... He may not, should not and must not kill the woman even if she was his slave although he can.

Even the corrupted Bible gave guidelines for the right conduct in such situation... I just dont remember the chapter and verse number but it goes like this:

"to stay in the desert is better than to be in the company of a cranky woman..."

He could have just kept his patience if he can't handle it. If the woman is nagging continuously or badmouthing the prophet (RAW)... the best thing for him to do is to have Sabr.... good thing happens to those who are patient.

It is merely a trial for him... but most trials should be seen as an opportunity. If he would have displayed Sabr, Kindness and Non-violent tolerance... who knows... he might have been able to win the faith of his slave woman which could eventually lead to her surrender to Islam.

Jihad is not confined to Physical Fighting alone... it is more than that.

We are continuously under the state of Jihad and Islam... Jihad means striving in Allahs' cause... and that includes - Self CONTROL.

To conquer ONES' SELF is the greatest Jihad. Once everyone; brothers and sisters alike are able to do this... Global Peace can be achieved easier... and the call to Islam can be much stronger for the non-muslims.

ooops... sorry everyone - got carried away again! I really cannot help it!...

back to topic! :peace:
Reply

IslamistheTruth
08-18-2007, 01:25 AM
Believer, I was thinking along the same lines. Patience is a virtue and patience is very much valued by Allah swt. How many times has our Prophet (saws) reminded us about not acting out in anger? How many times has our Prophet (saws) encouraged us to forgive..? Too many times to count. Thanks for your reply.
Reply

believer
08-18-2007, 05:53 AM
Salaamualaikum sister Islamisthetruth...

The call of the Prophets since time immemorial up to the final prohet Rasulloollah... has been one and the same.

Issah aleisalaam also gave a clear instruction as to how we should handle our angers or emotion... He said: before we utter a word, we should count 7 times 7 times 7.

And also about forgiveness... we should also be forgiving. In pursuit of achieving purity.

Man is by nature weak... this is the reason we must complete our 5 obligatory prayers... because - it is so easy to be angry with someone... especially if they are non-believers... this is the greatest challenge we Muslims and fellow Believers face in this current times.

conquering ourselves is a lot more difficult than conquering our enemies... in fact... it is even more easier to create unnecessary enemies than to keep unnecessary friends.

This is the disease that afflicts most of the ummah today.

Looking at it from a higher perspective... the world has been behaving like immatured children. It's OK to behave like children but its not OK to behave immature.

All it takes is just one party to excersice Sabr... and the battle can be won. The war between Satan and Man of course doesn't end till the last hour, but we can easily win all the battles against Shaytan with the virtue of Sabr.

It's not easy... it needs to be practiced... it takes self awareness and consistency with the call and performance to prayer.

I was able to battle my own sabr crisis by assuming the responsibility as Muazzin... this way - I felt that it's my responsibility to Allah to keep my community praying on time without delays.

99.5% of the ummah is probably not able to keep the 5 prayer times, but only the Friday Jummah. The Fajr prayer is as important as the Ibbadah... And Prayer is better than sleep. This is to me should be the priority number one of every Muslim... if they are able to make this a strict habit... there will be no room for emotional outburst and harbouring of secret ill-feelings.

The only reason Man makes those kind of violent crimes is because he has the habit of keeping ill-feelings against his fellow human being. THe blind man is the perfect example of this. If he would have been preoccupied with his duty to God like keeping himself consiouss of God and keeping the 5 prayers... then there would be no room for premeditated murder.

The prophet Rasulloollah has displayed sabr all the way throughout his life... I see no reason why every believer should not.

May Allah shower us with Sabr and keep us Humble always.
Reply

IslamistheTruth
08-18-2007, 11:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by believer
May Allah shower us with Sabr and keep us Humble always.

Ameen.
Reply

NoName55
08-18-2007, 01:02 PM
THe blind man is the perfect example of this. If he would have been preoccupied with his duty to God like keeping himself consiouss of God and keeping the 5 prayers... then there would be no room for premeditated murder.
If,indeed there was such a man! (must not forget that it may not be true at all)

wa salaam alaikum
Reply

barney
08-18-2007, 02:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
:wasalamex


There's a clear explanation of this somewhere by brother Ansar, insha Allaah i'll try to find it. It's somewhere on the forum, but it was posted a long time ago.


Here's the links:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/20274-true-insulting-prophet.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/15217-assassinations.html
The links dont work :(

Just to get this straight without going into the morality of condoning the killing of the woman for insulting him, is the general acceptance that the hadith is authentic and therefore the Prophet did say that and the bloke did do it?
Reply

NoName55
08-18-2007, 02:31 PM
are you partially blind or trolling (since you are repeating a question already answered more than once)?

http://www.islamicboard.com/807718-post35.html
Reply

barney
08-18-2007, 02:40 PM
Partially deaf. :(

I'm asking because the answer isnt that clear.
Reply

IslamistheTruth
08-18-2007, 06:26 PM
NoName55..there really isn't a need to be so rude.

Barney, it's not very clear to me either. However, I think that's the whole point..there isn't a clearcut answer to whether or not this hadith is completely authentic. We also need to take into consideration that there may have been other factors involved which have not been detailed into this account. If a true Islamic state was to rise again..this type of violence would not go unchecked..and we're certain about that..inshAllah. However, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) may have had his own reasons for forgiving this man. The Prophet was a very forgiving man and we have proof of that. People would verbally abuse him, throw garbage his way, and some even attempted to kill him. He forgave these people. Some people on this board many disagree with me on this, but I believe it is better to practice patience and to forgive. And of course..there are limits to everything. Again, the hadith doesn't go into immense detail. It describes the crime and allows for us to visualize a setting. Still, from there we are directly taken to the verdict. If the scholars themselves differ in regards to this hadith, then it's definitely difficult for me to draw any conclusions. Well, that's my take on it. I hope I didn't confuse anyone.
Reply

believer
08-18-2007, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
If,indeed there was such a man! (must not forget that it may not be true at all)

wa salaam alaikum
Salaamualaikum Brother!

True or Not... this hadith is causing confussion and it is our mission to clear the air of confussion and bring the truth. confussion is the devils tool to lead many astray.

The Prophet Rasoolullah has been our perfect model... we may not be perfect like the blind man... but it doesn't mean we don't pursue perfection.

Perfection in our religion is the only battle each Muslim must face. Allah gave us the clear guidelines... the reason we have these guidelines is to keep us from sin and evil acts. I have tried missing a prayer time one time... actually I missed 2 or 3... it was one of the hardest times I experienced.

Once you have been a practicing Muslim for the 5 prayer times... and then you deviate from it... Evil thoughts will come rushing back to you as if you have never been a Muslim.... I am speaking just for myself.

Now, In order to keep myself dedicated to not missing a prayer time... I assumed the role of the Muazzin. sometimes I am not that early to call the Athan... but - I am not missing the schedule.

In other words... if we try to hit the stars... we may never be able to hit it- but at least we'll be hitting the moon.

At any rate, if this Hadith isn't true... then - we can only pray that May Allah guide those who are trapped into this confussion.

Ameen.
Reply

believer
08-18-2007, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IslamistheTruth
This thread is good because I (along with some other sisters)have been questioning this hadith lately, and it's just been hard to make sense out of it.
This hadith for me serves like a nursery story... it has plenty of moral lessons in it... the nature of this hadith is similar to the childrens fairytale stories in Christian schools...

If I would treat it that way... its so easy to get conclussions and moral lessons.

OK, I will give it a shot.

Here are the moral lessons I can see in this Hadith:

1. (for the ladies) Never Nag your husband more than he can handle... we have a crime called 'Psychological torture'... in the west, a husband can file a case against his wife about Husband Battery by means of Nagging.

2. Never sleep till you have cleared issues with your spouses. see what happens when there are unsettled disputes? one of the spouse can snap and just loose it. and it's so easy to do it when one is sleeping.

3. (for the husbands) If you can't stop your wifes mouth, then at least get out of the house! stay in the desert! Fight or Flight - there are only two choices.

4. (for the men) Never touch your slave or servants... if you don't want to loose them. If you have self respect! at least to your children or your wife. Once you touch your servants, they will imediately think they are already on the same level like your wife... this is a fact.

5. (for the sisters)... Never leave knives lying around especially if you have nagged your blind husband the whole day ...;D :giggling:

The list goes on! but - this is not the thread for Funny Jokes... it's starting to sound one already.

I hope I broke the seriousness in the air.

May Allah bless us all and Keep us away from confussion!
Reply

NoName55
08-18-2007, 08:10 PM
^^ LOL! you are alright. wa salaam alaikum
Reply

Malaikah
08-19-2007, 01:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Just to get this straight without going into the morality of condoning the killing of the woman for insulting him
If the women was Muslim the killing was for apostacy, because insulting the Prophet is apostacy. But the narration does not clarify whether the woman was Muslim or not.
Reply

NoName55
08-19-2007, 02:56 AM
is there any point in writing page after page to explain apostasy and treason to people when someone can ruin it all with a single line?
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IslamistheTruth
08-19-2007, 03:54 AM
I see your point. :( Well, inshAllah..the message was clear.
Reply

lilah
08-19-2007, 04:41 AM
i've been reading a lot of the explanations given to the related hadiths. Unless you have evidence from to back up your statements, you cannot interpret hadiths based on your opinions....this is where the Muslims fall into the traps of the kufar....they try to interpret hadiths/quranic versus without proper schooling or knowledge, based on their opinions....but opinions can be misleading.

Lets say somebody asks about the interpretation of a hadith he/she heard and a muslim automatically starts putting in their 2 cents in as to what they think the meaning of the hadith is. But this muslim might have his/her time interpreting a weak/false hadith. Or he/she might give an incorrect interpretation of the hadith and be held accountable by Allah SWT.

i'm not saying that opinions don't matter, but they don't belong in interpreting hadith if the person isn't learned enough in Islam to do so.... (does that make sense?)
Reply

believer
08-19-2007, 06:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lilah
i've been reading a lot of the explanations given to the related hadiths. Unless you have evidence from to back up your statements, you cannot interpret hadiths based on your opinions....this is where the Muslims fall into the traps of the kufar....they try to interpret hadiths/quranic versus without proper schooling or knowledge, based on their opinions....but opinions can be misleading.

Lets say somebody asks about the interpretation of a hadith he/she heard and a muslim automatically starts putting in their 2 cents in as to what they think the meaning of the hadith is. But this muslim might have his/her time interpreting a weak/false hadith. Or he/she might give an incorrect interpretation of the hadith and be held accountable by Allah SWT.

i'm not saying that opinions don't matter, but they don't belong in interpreting hadith if the person isn't learned enough in Islam to do so.... (does that make sense?)

How about Reading the Quran 1 chapter per sitting - 5 times a day for one year? Are you questioning the credibility of the Qur'an? - I believe you want to say that the lesser books has more credibility?

I real Muslim will never attempt to claim something he has no knowledge of.... and If the truth has been given to him - and He witholds the information or revelation - He will be accountable to Allah SWT.

I will tell you what is the nature of something that does not come from Allah Subhanawatalallah.... If an information is not inspired or guided - It will be confusing and it will never be standing alone per se. It will need back-up.

This is the nature of lies. Lies cannot stand alone... just like the nature of Shaytan and his companions... they are a legion.

But the TRUTH can stand alone... just like Gods' nature... HE IS ONE! - no need for back-ups.

If you are trying to discredit me. You will be needing a lot of backup. Please never under estimate a man who uses simple words. I spent my whole lifetime trying to learn the laymans terms and also studying the nature of lies and liars... at the same time studying the true nature of God and Man.

I donot claim to be an islamic scholar nor a christian natural moral law master... but I do claim only one thing. The Truth revealed to me by Allah - and I have no doubts about it.

I already literally throw my personal library away because I have found the Qur'an. ... Yes, I had a library and and I loved books - but I will not claim to be an authority of any Human Games of Arrogance.

If you are only posting here with prejudice and an ulterior motive other than sharing the truth but instead be a block for the people who want to know the truth - then you will be answerable to your God.

Instead of trying to discredit inspired people here... why not try to think about what they are saying. Even Jesus recommended that... when you listen to the Pharisees - take the good points and discard the bad. So... why is common sense very uncommon.

Allah gave humanity the Qur'an for us to think, reflect and be thankful about this life and his creation and provision. now, if you will rely on the islamic scholars interpretation alone without thinking on your part... that is a form of SHIRK. to further explain my point: If anybody who willshow his badge around saying this is true - does that make him credible? So another guy claiming to have the truth - but he is only a deputy - worse - he has no badge - does that mean we cannot take his word?

Therefore the Prophet Muhamad (pbuh) also has no college degree, he cant even read nor write - he merely recited the Qur'an - Gods' words... and this is the TRUTH! are you going to question his credentials?

Well... most prophets had no college degree nor doctorates... and all the world is now busy producing doctorates to question, analyze, and worse discredit the Qur'an. This has been the drive since time immemorial.

I can't believe it is still happening up to now.

OK, Let's challenge you credentials... the fact that you have raised that question or argument... I sense you are driving the topic into something. And that is - to discredit a simple truth!

Truth is never complicated... even a small child will know it when he sees it.

If a Muslim is confronted by a human made situation... he needs to think and he needs to apply common sense. Now if he is confronted by something God-made... then he need to apply uncommon sense... that is - accept it. How do he knows it's from God? - then again - you will need to use your uncommon "COMMON SENSE!"

MAKE SENSE?
Reply

Malaikah
08-19-2007, 07:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
is there any point in writing page after page to explain apostasy and treason to people when someone can ruin it all with a single line?
Not until you accept that there are different opinions on a matter.
Reply

lilah
08-19-2007, 07:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by believer
How about Reading the Quran 1 chapter per sitting - 5 times a day for one year? Are you questioning the credibility of the Qur'an? - I believe you want to say that the lesser books has more credibility?

I real Muslim will never attempt to claim something he has no knowledge of.... and If the truth has been given to him - and He witholds the information or revelation - He will be accountable to Allah SWT.

I will tell you what is the nature of something that does not come from Allah Subhanawatalallah.... If an information is not inspired or guided - It will be confusing and it will never be standing alone per se. It will need back-up.

This is the nature of lies. Lies cannot stand alone... just like the nature of Shaytan and his companions... they are a legion.

But the TRUTH can stand alone... just like Gods' nature... HE IS ONE! - no need for back-ups.

If you are trying to discredit me. You will be needing a lot of backup. Please never under estimate a man who uses simple words. I spent my whole lifetime trying to learn the laymans terms and also studying the nature of lies and liars... at the same time studying the true nature of God and Man.

I donot claim to be an islamic scholar nor a christian natural moral law master... but I do claim only one thing. The Truth revealed to me by Allah - and I have no doubts about it.

I already literally throw my personal library away because I have found the Qur'an. ... Yes, I had a library and and I loved books - but I will not claim to be an authority of any Human Games of Arrogance.

If you are only posting here with prejudice and an ulterior motive other than sharing the truth but instead be a block for the people who want to know the truth - then you will be answerable to your God.

Instead of trying to discredit inspired people here... why not try to think about what they are saying. Even Jesus recommended that... when you listen to the Pharisees - take the good points and discard the bad. So... why is common sense very uncommon.

Allah gave humanity the Qur'an for us to think, reflect and be thankful about this life and his creation and provision. now, if you will rely on the islamic scholars interpretation alone without thinking on your part... that is a form of SHIRK. to further explain my point: If anybody who willshow his badge around saying this is true - does that make him credible? So another guy claiming to have the truth - but he is only a deputy - worse - he has no badge - does that mean we cannot take his word?

Therefore the Prophet Muhamad (pbuh) also has no college degree, he cant even read nor write - he merely recited the Qur'an - Gods' words... and this is the TRUTH! are you going to question his credentials?

Well... most prophets had no college degree nor doctorates... and all the world is now busy producing doctorates to question, analyze, and worse discredit the Qur'an. This has been the drive since time immemorial.

I can't believe it is still happening up to now.

OK, Let's challenge you credentials... the fact that you have raised that question or argument... I sense you are driving the topic into something. And that is - to discredit a simple truth!

Truth is never complicated... even a small child will know it when he sees it.

If a Muslim is confronted by a human made situation... he needs to think and he needs to apply common sense. Now if he is confronted by something God-made... then he need to apply uncommon sense... that is - accept it. How do he knows it's from God? - then again - you will need to use your uncommon "COMMON SENSE!"

MAKE SENSE?
This is perfect example of what i meant....you seemed to interpret my post based on your own perception of what you think i meant..... i had to do a double take when reading your post....

the intent of my post was that of a general warning for those on the board that interpret the meaning quran/hadith without proper knowledge to do so. It's one thing to study, learn, and teach the quran...quite another to interpret the meanings of the verses or hadith....

The Qur’an is guidance for all humanity but not everyone who reads it will get guidance from it. Qur’an reserves its guidance for those who sincerely seek it and approach it in the proper way and the right attitude. Many who have ignored these basic requirements have gone astray in their study of the Qur’an.

Interpreting the Qur’an requires expertise in several areas. First, one must have a firm command over classical Arabic language including its vocabulary, grammar, metaphors, and idioms.

Second, one must know the history of the Qur’an including where and when a verse was revealed; what other verses deal with the same subject; which of those, if any, supercede others. We must remember that the Qur’an is the first resource for its own interpretation.

Third, one must have good command over the Hadith literature, as it was the Prophet’s job to explain the Qur’an to us and no other interpretation of a Qur’anic verse is acceptable in the presence of an authentic Hadith that explains it.

Fourth, one must have knowledge of the comments of the Companions and their successors. After Qur’an and Hadith, they are the third most important resource in interpreting the Qur’an.

Fifth, one must have knowledge of the rich tafseer literature produced by the most reputed scholars of this Ummah.

Sixth, one must have sound knowledge of Shariah since no interpretation of the Qur’an is acceptable that violates accepted Shariah principles.

Seventh, one must be leading a life of taqwa and piety, as the Qur’an does not open doors to its understanding on those who are not serious in following it.

We cannot just open the Qur’an and start interpreting it as if we are starting on ground zero. Anyone taking this road must be reminded of this grave warning: Sayyidna Abdullah bin Abbas, Radi-Allahu anhu, reported that Prophet MuhammadSall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam said, “Whoever says something in interpreting the Qur’an based on his own opinion should find his place in the Fire.” [Tirmidhi Hadith No. 4023]

Unfortunately, today a lot of well meaning people are doing just this. They start, say, a Qur’anic study group, and start giving lectures on Qur’an. If the person is a good speaker, he might also get warm reception from an audience that confuses eloquence with scholarship. Soon, they start giving expert opinions about Shariah and Qur’an without having even the minimum qualification for it. Many a time, the audience participates equally excitedly, discussing the Words of Allah and delicate issues of Shariah with the same assumed expertise that is normally reserved for discussion of latest current affairs.

This casual attitude must be contrasted with that of the Companions. They not only new the language of the Qur’an better then anyone else, they were witnesses to its very revelation. Yet, they did not dare interpret it without first learning it, verse by verse, from Prophet Muhammad Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam himself. And even then they exercised extreme caution in making comments about the Qur’an. Sayyidna Abu Bakr, Radi-Allahu anhu, said: ”Which land will give me protection and which sky will give me cover if I say something in interpreting the Qur’an without knowledge.” Similarly, Yazid bin Yazid reports: ”We used to ask Sayyidna Saeed bin Al-Musayeb, Radi-Allahu anhu, regarding Halal and Haram. And he was the most knowledgeable person regarding it. But whenever we asked him to give tafsir for a verse he would keep quite as if he had not heard us.”

They knew that Qur’an declares that is has been made easy for remembrance, but they did not misinterpret it as a license to give personal opinions in areas of belief or law. Their caution stemmed from their realization that to say that a verse means such and such, is to attribute a statement to Allah!
source: http://www.albalagh.net/food_for_thought/quran4.shtml

My point is this....

When somebody asks for an interpretation for a hadith or quranic verse we should be careful with how we respond... we can't use our gut feelings, or perceptions of the world around us as a basis for an interpretation ESPECIALLY WITHOUT SUPPORTING EVIDENCES!

You mentioned that Muhammed (pbuh) was not a scholar, but he was in that he was taught by Allah (SWT) ...now, if you can claim the same thing, then i apologize for my rush to judgment.

more sources:
http://www.quranicstudies.com/article98.html
http://www.harunyahya.com/unwise02.php

Allahu A3lam
Reply

barney
08-19-2007, 07:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Not until you accept that there are different opinions on a matter.
Nice reply! :thumbs_up
Reply

lilah
08-19-2007, 07:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by iomari
Here is the reference you asked. It's from Sahih Book 17.

Quote:
Book 017, Number 4207:

Imran b. Husain reported that a woman from Juhaina came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and she had become pregnant because of adultery. She said: Allah's Apostle, I have done something for which (prescribed punishment) must be imposed upon me, so impose that. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) called her master and said: Treat her well, and when she delivers bring her to me. He did accordingly. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about her and her clothes were tied around her and then he commanded and she was stoned to death. He then prayed over her (dead body). Thereupon Umar said to him: Allah's Apostle, you offer prayer for her, whereas she had committed adultery! Thereupon he said: She has made such a repentance that if it were to be divided among seventy men of Medina, it would be enough. Have you found any repentance better than this that she sacrificed her life for Allah, the Majestic?
.
This hadith is one of many regarding this situation. Here's another:



Sahih Bukhari Book 017, Number 4206:

'Abdullah b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma'iz b. Malik al-Aslami came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, I have wronged myself; I have committed adultery and I earnestly desire that you should purify me. He turned him away. On the following day, he (Ma'iz) again came to him and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) turned him away for the second time, and sent him to his people saying: Do you know if there is anything wrong with his mind. They denied of any such thing in him and said: We do not know him but as a wise good man among us, so far as we can judge. He (Ma'iz) came for the third time, and he (the Holy Prophet) sent him as he had done before. He asked about him and they informed him that there was nothing wrong with him or with his mind. When it was the fourth time, a ditch was dug for him and he (the Holy Prophet) pronounced judg- ment about him and he wis stoned. He (the narrator) said: There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.
In the above hadith we can see that:
The adulteress approached the prophet and asked that she be purified.
The prophet gave the adulterer and adulteress an opportunity to walk away from punishment.
In the situation with the adulteress she voluntarily came back to him after the child was weaned (he did not imprison her or order any kind of police bring her back to him)
Her punishment was so that she be purified and avoid punishment in the akihra..


and Allah swt knows best
Reply

barney
08-19-2007, 08:02 AM
Indeed it's a large mental gap that im trying to cross here.

The prophet ordered a stoning, then when one of the stoners got splattered with blood and screamed some obcenitys at the woman for splattering him, the prophet said to be gentle in the stoning.

Aye, cos the lass having her head caved in would certainly take offence to old Khalids insults.

I keep typing stuff here and entering delete, cos I dont know how to express my thoughts on this one.
Better off with a zipped mouth.

Horrible story.
Reply

Malaikah
08-19-2007, 08:13 AM
You must have missed the part of the story were she offered herself for punishment although she wasn't meant to!! it wasn't the prophets fault, he tried to ignore her because he didn't want to punish her, but she wouldn't leave him.

"Be gentle" meant that he should not curse her and verbally abuse her, not that he should be gentle in throwing.
Reply

barney
08-19-2007, 08:36 AM
No i diddnt miss that at all.
If someone came up to me and asked me to stone em, I'd tell em to get on their bike. If they came three times or 3 thousand times, i would never , if i had the power he weilded, order a stoning.

Regardless: Where is the sanity in ordering someone to be smashed to peices with rocks then telling the murderers to talk nicely to the victim.
.
Reply

lilah
08-19-2007, 08:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Indeed it's a large mental gap that im trying to cross here.

The prophet ordered a stoning, then when one of the stoners got splattered with blood and screamed some obcenitys at the woman for splattering him, the prophet said to be gentle in the stoning.

Aye, cos the lass having her head caved in would certainly take offence to old Khalids insults.

I keep typing stuff here and entering delete, cos I dont know how to express my thoughts on this one.
Better off with a zipped mouth.

Horrible story.
It is no different than a criminal turning themselves in to the law in today's modern times. Both the adulterer AND adulteress turned themselves in despite the fact that they knew what the punishment was for that crime...

Early Muslims of that era understood the value of this life in contrast to the value of the afterlife. Punishment via stoning is nothing in comparison to punishment of the grave or punishment in hellfire, so by facing their punishment here, they are no longer held accountable for this sin in the afterlife. The lesson here that this woman recognized the benefits of purifying herself in this life so that she may have paradise in the afterlife which she will enjoy for eternity

But i suppose i understand your unfavorable view of this story...after all in today's modern and hip times, adultery and fornication REALLY isn't much of a crime. In fact fornication and adultery is encouraged (especially if committed by a male)... i guess a similar situation would be a serial killer turning himself/herself into the law and asking for the death penalty. Imagine if 1,000 years from now murder becomes as acceptable as adultery/fornication...the people of the future would not comprehend why it is that the killer had to die just because he killed a few guys for no reason.

as for Khalid's curse...it wasn't because blood was spattered...he cursed her for her sin. A response of human nature. We all do it all the time, when a criminal is seen being brought to justice on tv, i hear people make blind judgmental comments like, 'He deserved it' or 'Hope he rotts in Hell'

But the prophet (SWT) corrected Khalid and said that despite her sin and punishment that she was purified of her crime.

Today, we do not have the same kind of empathy for a person that commits a crime and faces his/her punishment....if a person commits a crime there's a stigma cast on that person that haunts him/her forever...it's hard to forgive a criminal even after they faced their sentence...
Reply

barney
08-19-2007, 09:08 AM
And in times of ignorance witches were burned at the stake, their crimes were blasphemy against God.
Stoning is a prescribed islamic punishment that is carried out today.

Mankind cant progress when it is locked in thousands of year old bigotry.


What did the pre-islamic arabs do to adulterers? Stone them.
Pagan laws went unchanged. Why?
Did Pagans stumble across Gods chosen desires for adulterers?

Well ok, in these modern hip times where we dont mow down sunday shoppers for working on sunday, or immolate rock bands are we progressing? Surely we are going against Gods will!

Islamic revalations on punishment were in my opinion instituted to fit in with the society of that day and age. once they became Gods unchangable word then mankind is doomed to sit in the age of ignorance and barbarism for eternity.
Reply

believer
08-19-2007, 09:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lilah
and Allah swt knows best


One question:

I sense we have to take the topic into an academic perspective.... If a sinner wanted to repent, but the equivalent punishment for his/her offense is death... How will he/she achieve an acceptable repentance to Allah SWT?

Technically - Suicide is out of the question - unless they really wanted to go to hell.

Nowadays, people are not really afraid of the consequence of sins...
Reply

believer
08-19-2007, 10:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
And in times of ignorance witches were burned at the stake, their crimes were blasphemy against God.
Stoning is a prescribed islamic punishment that is carried out today.

Mankind cant progress when it is locked in thousands of year old bigotry.


What did the pre-islamic arabs do to adulterers? Stone them.
Pagan laws went unchanged. Why?
Did Pagans stumble across Gods chosen desires for adulterers?

Well ok, in these modern hip times where we dont mow down sunday shoppers for working on sunday, or immolate rock bands are we progressing? Surely we are going against Gods will!

Islamic revalations on punishment were in my opinion instituted to fit in with the society of that day and age. once they became Gods unchangable word then mankind is doomed to sit in the age of ignorance and barbarism for eternity.
You are right... but I am not sure about the stoning part... Are you sure they are still doing this?
Reply

asadxyz
08-19-2007, 11:36 AM
:sl:
If Atheists are against punishment ,those are right because they have to run prostituition houses (red light areas) and porn industery.What will happen to them if people get scared of adultery and fornication.
Atheists say "Porn is not immoral".
:w:
Reply

believer
08-19-2007, 11:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
:sl:
If Atheists are against punishment ,those are right because they have to run prostituition houses (red light areas) and porn industery.What will happen to them if people get scared of adultery and fornication.
Atheists say "Porn is not immoral".
:w:
I agree! The same reason why some people are against ISLAM... so they can run their sinful ways freely! And they will devise all kinds of tactical and technical rhetorics to achieve their ends... since for them - the end justifies the means.
Reply

NoName55
08-19-2007, 11:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
:sl:
If Atheists are against punishment ,those are right because they have to run prostituition houses (red light areas) and porn industery.What will happen to them if people get scared of adultery and fornication.
Atheists say "Porn is not immoral".
:w:
:w:

Thank you for saying that because I was afraid to say that as I would have gotten harassed by staff here.
Reply

NoName55
08-19-2007, 12:45 PM
edit
Reply

believer
08-19-2007, 01:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Ok, I will tell you the meaning about that:

'To have something on the lips' means, that a person likes to say something but has not the guts to speak it out.

It has nothing to do with porn, or whatever dirty stuff. I just wonder, why that came to your mind? http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/konfus/d030.gif
The videos in all that Anti-Islam sites are not Muslims... they are Shia's - (****tes)... in Iran. No real Muslim will shout the Takbeer in vain or in a hostile and angry manner... in fact - the Takbeer is holy enough that it should be - not spoken in vain.

These Iranian sect - takes joy in human suffering and killing - specially if it involves real Muslims...

I also noticed that these Jewish sites have the same trademarks... they thrive in sensationalism propaganda.

They also are big fan of Hollywood Materials... the use of colors for one... Headliners that cathes attention.... but nothing significant really coming afterward...

Also another element signature element is that the reader or viewer will feel hatred and dissillusionment afterwards without really having a clear reason why?

The fact that Guyabano is a fan of this... well, makes him no less than anything of the lower intellect.

If you really think you can infiltrate and destroy this comunity.... you are in clear error.

TRUTH WILL COME OUT even if you build a mountain of lies over it... Deception is one way... Mockery is its' Evil Twin.

A deciever will show a different face in front of the believers but when he is with his friends and cohorts - they mock us.

So how are you doing so far?

If you think I will fade away... nope... I am just getting warmed up.

Apologies to the sisters and brothers but - Islam also teaches us not to be soft in speech and not to turn our heads in the East or the West whenever we encounter such individuals or situation.

-guyabano - I don't want you to be out of this thread... in fact - I want to keep you within... Lets demonstrate to the community what you are really made of. And if you think what you have is better than what we have - let's put it to the test.

you started it - let me do the finishing touches.
Reply

guyabano
08-19-2007, 02:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by believer
The videos in all that Anti-Islam sites are not Muslims... they are Shia's - (****tes)... in Iran. No real Muslim will shout the Takbeer in vain or in a hostile and angry manner... in fact - the Takbeer is holy enough that it should be - not spoken in vain.

These Iranian sect - takes joy in human suffering and killing - specially if it involves real Muslims...

I also noticed that these Jewish sites have the same trademarks... they thrive in sensationalism propaganda.

They also are big fan of Hollywood Materials... the use of colors for one... Headliners that cathes attention.... but nothing significant really coming afterward...

Also another element signature element is that the reader or viewer will feel hatred and dissillusionment afterwards without really having a clear reason why?

The fact that Guyabano is a fan of this... well, makes him no less than anything of the lower intellect.

If you really think you can infiltrate and destroy this comunity.... you are in clear error.

TRUTH WILL COME OUT even if you build a mountain of lies over it... Deception is one way... Mockery is its' Evil Twin.

A deciever will show a different face in front of the believers but when he is with his friends and cohorts - they mock us.

So how are you doing so far?

If you think I will fade away... nope... I am just getting warmed up.

Apologies to the sisters and brothers but - Islam also teaches us not to be soft in speech and not to turn our heads in the East or the West whenever we encounter such individuals or situation.

-guyabano - I don't want you to be out of this thread... in fact - I want to keep you within... Lets demonstrate to the community what you are really made of. And if you think what you have is better than what we have - let's put it to the test.

you started it - let me do the finishing touches.
Who is in error and who not, is not the point. A forum is to discuss, not to challenge. If you think so, then you are on the wrong place.

And please, stay on topic, you're about to drift and loose control too.

Oh, give me a valid reason why you want to keep me in this thread? 2 others failed already and you will just be another in the list.
My point is to have fair discussions, that's all. I didn't say bad words when you argue, I just mentionned that you are wrong and you have to accept the facts, so please leave these silly comments upon threatening me 'putting to a test' as you will blatantly fail. I'm pretty sure, I have a little bit more selfcontrol and life-experience as you do.

In the second video were cleary to see IRANIANS (not sect or whatever) who stoned a woman. This belongs to the category 'barbaric' and guess what, it happened in 2004, that is according to our time 'not so long time ago'.
There was nothing propaganda, even the TV Channel it has been sent was Iranian. So I don't know what you are trying to tell me, but instead, open your eyes and have the decency to say "Yes, it is not right what happened there" and don't start with some strange theories that they are not muslims.

In every society, there are good ones and bad ones. Christians as well as muslims contribute to these ugly parts in our history. Instead of comming closer and learn how to accept our mistakes we all made, people like you just try again to stir up some anger and hatred.

And never forget, in another's religion's point of view, you are also nothing more but ..a kuffar ! So learn to accept different-thinking and see the world from different angles!
Reply

NoName55
08-19-2007, 02:55 PM
strange! mimi and popo are sending lil ole me to Coventry
Reply

Trumble
08-19-2007, 03:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam

Capital Punishement has been around for the longest time.... and oddly enough, most people seem to accept this.... now I wonder why?:? :mmokay:
So do I. Capital punishment is barbarism, a Dark Age relic, be it by stoning, hanging, the electric chair, lethal injection or whatever. The only motives for it's existence are bloodlust and revenge - it has nothing to do with 'justice'.

Capital punishment is incorporated in certain religious writing because it was the practice when those books were written, not because it has any merit. Time for mankind to move on, and grow up.
Reply

Woodrow
08-19-2007, 03:29 PM
This thread has strayed very far from it's beginings. A number of posts have just been deleted. A few because they were inappropriate. Many because they referred to the inappropriate posts and some simply because the topic had been sidetracked.

Now let us all try to stay on topic and keep all replies directed to the topic and not to any member posting.

I may have missed deleting some posts that need deleting, if you see any please PM me.
Reply

IslamistheTruth
08-19-2007, 05:05 PM
I believe we're still talking about the hadith which iomari initially posted correct?

I'm not one to state my opinions when presented with a question of the religious nature. What I've done is taken only from hadith that isn't under question and the Quran itself. I'm not trying to make anything up but I'm merely trying to make sense of everything. We aren't the only ones to disagree or interpret things different..the scholars do it too. So, I still stand by all I've said thus far.
Reply

lilah
08-20-2007, 09:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
And in times of ignorance witches were burned at the stake, their crimes were blasphemy against God.
Stoning is a prescribed islamic punishment that is carried out today.

Mankind cant progress when it is locked in thousands of year old bigotry.


What did the pre-islamic arabs do to adulterers? Stone them.
Pagan laws went unchanged. Why?
Did Pagans stumble across Gods chosen desires for adulterers?

Well ok, in these modern hip times where we dont mow down sunday shoppers for working on sunday, or immolate rock bands are we progressing? Surely we are going against Gods will!

Islamic revalations on punishment were in my opinion instituted to fit in with the society of that day and age. once they became Gods unchangable word then mankind is doomed to sit in the age of ignorance and barbarism for eternity.

First of all, i don't know what the punishment for adulterers were in pre islamic arabia, and i'm too tired to look it up. I do know that there wasn't alot of emphasis on morality and there is evidence to suggest they were sexually permissive. For example, prostitutes would wear dangly items/trinkets that would jingle to attract men. Also some of the people of pre islamic arabia used to circumambulate the Kaba naked. There was not emphasis on morality in pre islamic arabia.

The witch hunts, the spanish inquisition, the tyranny of the Hitler regime....these are all different than what we are talking about here. For example, during the salem witch hunts the leaders of the era would go out and find anybody they suspected of witch craft and burn/torture them.

But in this case the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) did not have a secret police that monitored his followers. He didn't have spys or loyal/preferred supporters who's role it was to call sinners out to the open. In fact, to accuse anybody of a adultery without 4 witnesses would mean punishment by 80 lashes. The adulterer and the adulteress both had the opportunity to walk away from punishement, but they didn't...even though they knew what the punishment for their sin would be. Unlike the Salem witch trials where they'd burn/drown/torture anybody that they *suspected* of being a witch, during the time of the prophet i believe these were the only 2 believers that were stoned to death for adultery (i know of no other hadith relating to another incident of a mu'min being stoned to death for adultery).

The prophet Muhammed (pbuh) made it clear that if we repent our sins to Allah (SWT) insha allah He will for give us. Sometimes I wonder why it is these two people turned themselves in. I do know that the followers of the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) had very sensitive hearts and were very fearful of Allah (SWT). They feared the punishement in the grave far more than anything in life. They feared the punishment of hellfire far worse than anything in life. They feared incurring the anger of God far worse than anything in life. They believed that no punishment here on earth could come close to punishment in the afterlife. So these two people who committed a great sin chose their punishement on earth instead of punishment in the afterlife.

Yet today, our hearts have hardened a little bit....many people aren't as sensitive to the consequences of sinning....maybe that is why we don't quite understand the motivation of these two individuals.

Now, i have to agree with you Barney, that i don't agree with stoning in today's world. Not because i don't believe in the quran, or somehow feel that God's word needs to be changed. I believe that the Muslim leaders are corrupt and do not follow Islam as it was revealed. Most of the leaders enforce the strictest of laws while they indulge in the pleasures of the world. On the other side of the spectrum there are oppressive leaders that use bits and pieces of religion as a method of controlling the people. Also, in many parts of the world, the islamic leaders oppress the true islamic scholars and students because they know they'd lose power should muslims unite against these governments. There is no true Islamic government in existence today. How can a governing body enforce a law when they themselves are lawless?

On a final note, islam places an emphasis on the sanctity of marriage. Adultery is an extreme injustice and oppression against a spouse (ask anybody whose had a spouse cheat on them and you'll see what i mean) and is a violation of a the vow one gives in God's name to be faithful and honorable to their husband or wife. Punishing adultery is not bigotry. A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own. Punishing somebody for breaking the law does not make somebody a bigot ESPECIALLY when that person turns themselves in for punishment. Now, IF the muslims only punished non believers for adultery and overlooking their own sins....you could argue bigotry...but it was just the reverse. The believers were the ones that were punished while the disbelievers were left alone. WHY? Because the believers BELIEVED in Allah (SWT) and his laws and the afterlife and the prophet knew that by facing punishement in this life, the ummah would be purified for the afterlife. The non believer do not believe in Allah (SWT) or his laws or the afterlife....so they have bigger issues to address with Allah (SWT) than the punishment of adultery.

Now, with you being non Muslim, you have the option of not believing in the laws of Allah (SWT), so if you were living in the time of the prophet and committed adultery, you would have been left alone. During the Salem witch trials, however, or any other period of human oppression, you would have been tortured and oppressed for not submitting to the laws of man.

and Allah (SWT) knows best, may he give you guidance.

Peace
Reply

IslamistheTruth
08-20-2007, 12:22 PM
MashAllah Lilah..I enjoyed reading that. :)
Reply

believer
08-20-2007, 09:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano

In the second video were cleary to see IRANIANS (not sect or whatever) who stoned a woman. This belongs to the category 'barbaric' and guess what, it happened in 2004, that is according to our time 'not so long time ago'.
There was nothing propaganda, even the TV Channel it has been sent was Iranian. So I don't know what you are trying to tell me, but instead, open your eyes and have the decency to say "Yes, it is not right what happened there" and don't start with some strange theories that they are not muslims.

In every society, there are good ones and bad ones. Christians as well as muslims contribute to these ugly parts in our history. Instead of comming closer and learn how to accept our mistakes we all made, people like you just try again to stir up some anger and hatred.

And never forget, in another's religion's point of view, you are also nothing more but ..a kuffar ! So learn to accept different-thinking and see the world from different angles!
Yes, you are right, they are Iranians... the video itself is not staged by actors... the vide itself is true not the propaganda... What I am pointing out is the way this website is presenting it.

the people you see in that video are Shia's... they ARE NOT MUSLIMS... period! They are very far from the real practice and lifestyle of Islam. No Real Muslim will shout the Takbeer (Allahu akbar) like the way they did. In fact... real Muslims donot shout the takbeer... they normally whisper or say it with utmost respect.

Another thing I would like to clarify with you... A Kufar is a disbeliever or an unbeliever like the atheists.... Definitely - I don't fall into that category in any other religion.

As a matter of fact... there are only 3 types of people in the world... the Muslim, the Mushrikins and the Kafiroons.

1. Muslims - believes in Islamic Monotheism

2. Mushriks - they may or may not believe also in the same God but they associates partners with him... making them fall into the category of polytheists... Mushrikeens are those who practice SHIRK... this is a form of idolatry... having faith with creations as a partner of the creator... and sometimes... having more faith in the creation rejecting the original Creator.

3. Kafiroons - the Kufars... They don't believe in GOD... any God whatsoever.

Technically - I cannot be a Kufar.

OK MODS... I am sober... guyabano... am I behaving civil enough now?

Peace Man!
Reply

ahsan28
08-20-2007, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
So do I. Capital punishment is barbarism, a Dark Age relic, be it by stoning, hanging, the electric chair, lethal injection or whatever. The only motives for it's existence are bloodlust and revenge - it has nothing to do with 'justice'.

Capital punishment is incorporated in certain religious writing because it was the practice when those books were written, not because it has any merit. Time for mankind to move on, and grow up.

So what punishments do you suggest against henious crimes, in order to ensure that the society moves on in the right direction?
Reply

wilberhum
08-20-2007, 09:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ahsan28
So what punishments do you suggest against henious crimes, in order to ensure that the society moves on in the right direction?
Do you think killing people will ensure that the society moves on in the right direction?
Reply

- Qatada -
08-20-2007, 09:20 PM
:salamext:


Alhamdulillah i think the issues been addressed, bro Muhammad posted the relevant links [of an earlier discussion related to the topic of the thread] - and now you can access them from the 2nd post on this thread insha Allaah;


Here's the links:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/20274-true-insulting-prophet.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/15217-assassinations.html



So there's no point allowing the thread to run for no purpose.



Thread Closed.
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