Amputees.

[barney]

Bah, the forum rolled back just as we were getting going with this :(

Why does God Heal Influenza but cant regenerate limbs.

For believers, it is obvious why so many prayers are answered. In the Bible, Jesus promises many times that he will answer our prayers. For example, in Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Ask and you will receive. What could be simpler than that?
In Matthew 17:20 Jesus reiterates that same message:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
Since a mustard seed is a tiny inanimate object about the size of a grain of salt, it is easy to imagine that the faith of a mustard seed is fairly small. So, paraphrasing, what Jesus is saying is that if you have the tiniest bit of faith, you can move mountains.
Jesus says something similar in Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says it again:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Jesus is actually in our midst and God answers our prayers.

A simple experiment

For this experiment, we need to find a deserving person who has had both of his legs amputated. For example, find a sincere, devout person who was involved in a tragic automobile accident.

Now create a prayer circle over the internet of a few hundred thousand. The job of this prayer circle is simple: pray to God to restore the amputated legs of this deserving person. I do not mean to pray for a team of renowned surgeons to somehow graft the legs of a cadaver onto the body, nor for a team of renowned scientists to craft mechanical legs for him.
Pray that God spontaneously and miraculously restores the legs overnight, .

If possible, get millions of people all over the planet to join the prayer circle and pray their most fervent prayers. Get millions of people praying in unison for a single miracle for this one deserving amputee. Then stand back and watch.

What is going to happen? Jesus clearly says that if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. He does not say it once -- he says it many times in many ways in the Bible.

And yet, even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.

No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing will happen. The legs will not regenerate. Prayer does not restore the severed limbs of amputees. You can electronically search through all the medical journals ever written -- there is no documented case of an amputated leg being restored spontaneously. And we know that God ignores the prayers of amputees through our own observations of the world around us. If God were answering the prayers of amputees to regenerate their lost limbs, we would be seeing amputated legs growing back every day.

Isn't that odd? The situation becomes even more peculiar when you look at who God is. According to the Standard Model of God:

God is all-powerful. Therefore, God can do anything, and regenerating a leg is trivial.

God is perfect, and he created the Bible, which is his perfect book. In the Bible, Jesus makes very specific statements about the power of prayer. Since Jesus is God, and God and the Bible are perfect, those statements should be true and accurate.

God is all-knowing and all-loving. He certainly knows about the plight of the amputee, and he loves this amputee very much.

God is ready and willing to answer your prayers no matter how big or small. All that you have to do is believe. He says it in multiple places in the Bible. Surely, with millions of people in the prayer circle, at least one of them will believe and the prayer will be answered.

God has no reason to discriminate against amputees. If he is answering millions of other prayers to heal every day, God should be answering the prayers of amputees too.
Nonetheless, the amputated legs are not going to regenerate.
What are we seeing here? It is not that God sometimes answers the prayers of amputees, and sometimes does not. Instead, in this situation there is a very clear line. God never answers the prayers of amputees. It would appear, to an unbiased observer, that God is singling out amputees and purposefully ignoring them.

[Diesel1907]

You are asking only the christian perspective right?

[Muezzin]

Bah, the forum rolled back just as we were getting going with this :(

Why does God Heal Influenza but cant regenerate limbs.

I don't think God is a lizard. But David Icke might disagree.

[Keltoi]

We are dealing with a false dichotomy. This is similar to stating that Bill Gates could fund PBS, but PBS is still fundraising, therefore Bill Gates doesn't exist.

Why doesn't God "regenerate" lost limbs for those who pray to Him to do so? I don't know. Strangely, there are many things I don't know about God. Imagine that.

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[AhlaamBella]

Life is a test. If you sailed through it without trials, the test would be pointless

[Joe98]

Why does God heal influenza but cant regenerate limbs.

It is technically feasable. There are some creatures that can do this.

The reason God doesn't allow humans to regenerate limbs is because there is no god.

-

[Keltoi]

It is technically feasable. There are some creatures that can do this.

The reason God doesn't allow humans to regenerate limbs is because there is no god.

-

No offense, but that is rather weak argument. Lizards can regenerate limbs but human beings cannot = there is no God? Birds have wings but I don't, does that mean there is no God too?

[Strzelecki]

It is technically feasable. There are some creatures that can do this.

The reason God doesn't allow humans to regenerate limbs is because there is no god.

-

So you're saying if God existed Humans would have the ability to regenerate limbs?:confused:

Anyway, I think the short and simple answer to why we can't do this is because we are limited in our ability. If we could do anything, as DeepOcean said, Life is a test. If you sailed through it without trials, the test would be pointless.

[Medina83]

Its not that God can't regenerate limbs (read in the bible where Jesus with power from Allah healed lepers)

Its that God doesn't regenerate limbs.

The reason: God knows best, Allahu Ahlam

but don't you think what you're doing is just pulling one of a million possible things and manipulating it to your preconceived end that there is no God.
Its like saying: If there was a God wouldn't He just write messages to us in the clouds?


He has given us enough evidence but to the non-believer no evidence is ever enough.

Furthermore if I was to take your line of reasoning, the fact that my skin cells, hair and blood DO regenerate is proof enough for me :)

[AhlaamBella]

Its not that God can't regenerate limbs (read in the bible where Jesus with power from Allah healed lepers)

Its that God doesn't regenerate limbs.

The reason: God knows best, Allahu Ahlam

but don't you think what you're doing is just pulling one of a million possible things and manipulating it to your preconceived end that there is no God.
Its like saying: If there was a God wouldn't He just write messages to us in the clouds?


He has given us enough evidence but to the non-believer no evidence is ever enough.

Furthermore if I was to take your line of reasoning, the fact that my skin cells, hair and blood DO regenerate is proof enough for me :)

MarshAllah sister that is so true. Even if God didregenerate limbs, non-believers would still find SOMETHING to pick on. :cry:

[Muezzin]

It is technically feasable. There are some creatures that can do this.

The reason God doesn't allow humans to regenerate limbs is because there is no god.

-

The reason some creatures can regenerate limbs is because there is a God. I like this game!

[AhlaamBella]

It is technically feasable. There are some creatures that can do this.

The reason God doesn't allow humans to regenerate limbs is because there is no god.

-

:uuh: So if that is the case, why can some creatures dothis?

[barney]

The point is Lizards might beleive in God, so they get their limbs regenerated.
Why dont Duck-Billed Platypusses? Are they Athiest or pagan?

The Miracle of God healing those who are ill dosnt extend to limb regeneration.
Is it beyond his power?
Does he just choose not to?
Or isnt he not aware of us?
Or dosnt he exist.

It's one of those 4.

The bill gates, redfruit-blue fruit isnt an arguement in this.
That God chooses to is a arguement.
The christians say ask and ye will receive. yet you can ask till your a shade of purple and you wont receive certain things. Things that are physically impossible and not naturally occuring. A infection may cure itself. a tumour can be successfully treated. Limbs cant regrow.

Islamically, god chooses not to do this. Why this particulally? He will provide rainfall, Cure a virus, lots of things. Why cant he do something not naturally occuring?

As for Agnostic /atheist sceptacism. If I was to see a documented case of Prayer being followed by limb regeneration, that would be proof of divine intervention for me.

[AhlaamBella]

The Miracle of God healing those who are ill dosnt extend to limb regeneration.
Is it beyond his power?
Does he just choose not to?
Or isnt he not aware of us?
Or dosnt he exist.

It's one of those 4.

Refer to my other post. Life is a test. Depending on how you co n the test of life, you are rewarded/punished. Everything in life is a test, including the loss of limbs.

As for Agnostic /atheist sceptacism. If I was to see a documented case of Prayer being followed by limb regeneration, that would be proof of divine intervention for me.

What about people who are miraculously cured from illnesses? What about cancer? people survive that. There are other miracles, just look around you.

[wilberhum]

What about people who are miraculously cured from illnesses? What about cancer? people survive that. There are other miracles, just look around you.

How do you know they are miracles and not just unexplained natural events?

[AhlaamBella]

How do you know they are miracles and not just unexplained natural events?

They amount to the same thing. It depends on your perception. My point is, they are not unexplained.Allah provides us with an explanation in the Qur'an. And they are natural...part of Allah's natural order for the world.

[wilberhum]

They amount to the same thing. It depends on your perception. My point is, they are not unexplained.Allah provides us with an explanation in the Qur'an. And they are natural...part of Allah's natural order for the world.

Just because you have an explination dosn't mean you are right. :-[

Maybe it is the FSM. :D

[AhlaamBella]

Just because you have an explination dosn't mean you are right. :-[

Prove me wrong. Or find a verse in the Qur'an and prove it wrong/false

[wilberhum]

Prove me wrong. Or find a verse in the Qur'an and prove it wrong/false

The Quran only proves Arabs could write. :uuh:

Prove the FSM is not the creator. :D

Or read my signature. :shade:

[AhlaamBella]

The Quran only proves Arabs could write. :uuh:

*laughs* Oh really?

Prove the FSM is not the creator. :D

FSM? :confused: you've lost me lol

[wilberhum]

*laughs* Oh really?




FSM? :confused: you've lost me lol

Flying Spaghetti Monster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Or if you like Invisible Flying Pink Unicorns.

There is no proof, one way or the other. There are just beliefs and openions.

[AhlaamBella]

Put it this way, is there any proof that there ISN'T a God?

[wilberhum]

Put it this way, is there any proof that there ISN'T a God?

What part of "There is no proof, one way or the other. There are just beliefs and openions" didn't you understand?

[AhlaamBella]

What part of "There is no proof, one way or the other. There are just beliefs and openions" didn't you understand?

Of course I understood. But there is TRUTH. You can't have given up on something as pure as that

[wilberhum]

Of course I understood. But there is TRUTH. You can't have given up on something as pure as that

I don't believe any human has "The TRUTH".
I believe "The TRUTH" is no more real than the FSM.

[AhlaamBella]

I don't believe any human has "The TRUTH".
I believe "The TRUTH" is no more real than the FSM.

I see. Can I just ask, how do you believe the world came about? Where did you come from?

[wilberhum]

I see. Can I just ask, how do you believe the world came about? Where did you come from?

Big Bang. From god, maybe. :confused: I don't know. (Remember I'm an Agnostic:D )

The key word here is "believe".

[AhlaamBella]

(Remember I'm an Agnostic:D )

lol I know

The key word here is "believe".

And what do you base your beliefs on?

[wilberhum]

And what do you base your beliefs on?

We have hijacked this thread. It is a really cool and Barney has made some really interesting points. You can PM me of open another thread, but lets give this one back to Barney and his topic. :thumbs_up

[AhlaamBella]

We have hijacked this thread. It is a really cool and Barney has made some really interesting points. You can PM me of open another thread, but lets give this one back to Barney and his topic. :thumbs_up

:D great idea

[Joe98]

Why does God heal influenza but cant regenerate limbs?

Life is a test. If you sailed through it without trials, the test would be pointless

Therefore influenza is not a test because God cures those with influenza.

Why is it that God has never regenerated human limbs?

-

[Keltoi]

Therefore influenza is not a test because God cures those with influenza.

Why is it that God has never regenerated human limbs?

-

You could ask that about a million things. Why doesn't God make me attractive? Why doesn't God make my headache go away? Why doesn't God cure the blind? Why doesn't God turn me into a mountain goat?, because I really want to be a mountain goat. :-\

[ranma1/2]

Put it this way, is there any proof that there ISN'T a God?

as much proof that there isnt a celestial teapot or the GFSM or IPU or me being god etc.....

what we are looking for is evidence "if you want to call it proof fine im tired of pointing out that problem" that something exists.

[wilberhum]

You could ask that about a million things. Why doesn't God make me attractive? Why doesn't God make my headache go away? Why doesn't God cure the blind? Why doesn't God turn me into a mountain goat?, because I really want to be a mountain goat. :-\

But I'm sure 99% of the amputees would like there limb back. :rollseyes

That seams a lot more important than making my headache go away.:skeleton:

Barney makes really valid points. :thumbs_up

[Keltoi]

But I'm sure 99% of the amputees would like there limb back. :rollseyes

That seams a lot more important than making my headache go away.:skeleton:

Barney makes really valid points. :thumbs_up

All that is relative. Of course amputees want their lost limbs back, that isn't in question. However, there are millions of human conditions that God could remedy if He so chose. Technically, I suppose he could be a divine miracle machine, granting lost limbs to everyone. It is a nice philosophical question, but doesn't point one way or the other as to the existence of God.

[wilberhum]

there are millions of human conditions that God could remed

So why doesn’t an omnipotent god do some thing?
I can see only two answers.
1) God is not omnipotent.
2) God does not exist.

It is a nice philosophical question, but doesn't point one way or the other as to the existence of God.

Right, and neither does anything else.

[Keltoi]

So why doesn’t an omnipotent god do some thing?
I can see only two answers.
1) God is not omnipotent.
2) God does not exist.


Right, and neither does anything else.

So because God does not grant regenerated limbs to people means he isn't omnipotent or doesn't exist? I suppose if that is your criteria for establising the existence of God, but that isn't my criteria.

[AhlaamBella]

Therefore influenza is not a test because God cures those with influenza.

Why is it that God has never regenerated human limbs?

-

So your saying that having influenza is easy? That just because there is a cure, it ISN'T a test?

[barney]

All that is relative. Of course amputees want their lost limbs back, that isn't in question. However, there are millions of human conditions that God could remedy if He so chose. Technically, I suppose he could be a divine miracle machine, granting lost limbs to everyone. It is a nice philosophical question, but doesn't point one way or the other as to the existence of God.

The point is Kelt that everyday, prayer circles ask for healing. They will use the times that the sick persons they ask for intervention with actually get better as proof that god is indeed healing people all over the world.
Except Amputees.

An Amputee WANTING their limbs back is irrelevent. Christians will answer that God chooses to heal or not to heal. He "remedys" millions of people every day. Is this not his intervention? Is growing back a leg more "difficult" for him? Is it tireing? Is there some reason why growing back a arm never happens when cancer going into reccession happens so often?

The idea of god choosing completly blows matthews gospel's promises out of the water. "Ask and ye shall receive, unless its a bit tricky or not occouring in nature".

We are left with:

• He hears but always ignores. (demolishing mercifulness & justness)
• He cant do it
• He can do it but statistically he just hasnt got round to it yet.
• He cant hear.
• He isnt there.

[snakelegs]

barney,
you are not being a good agnostic.
correct answer: it is in the Simply Unknowable Folder #27. :statisfie

[barney]

Hey! I'm about the most devout, hardline, fundamentalist agnostic i know!

:)

[snakelegs]

listen, i am better than you because i have been an agnostic all my (long) life!
and i know that much is unknowable!
so there.

[AhlaamBella]

Is this a discussion about God and diseases or who is the best agnostic?

[Woodrow]

As we return to the original topic. I see the question as one that raises other questions.

Are we capable of understanding Allah(swt)?

Do we really need to depend on miracles as proof of anything?

In terms of existence, isn't the thought of regeneration for parts on a temporary body quite insignificant?

Although the ability of regeneration in many animal and plant forms is quite common, isn't it a greater miracle that people do not have that gift?

Wouldn't regeneration in Humans tend to give us a false view of our own mortality?

Is not the knowledge that we can permanently loose limbs a strong incentive to learn to do things that will not damage our temporary body?

[snakelegs]

Is this a discussion about God and diseases or who is the best agnostic?

my apologies. i was responding to barney's

We are left with:
He hears but always ignores. (demolishing mercifulness & justness)
He cant do it
He can do it but statistically he just hasnt got round to it yet.
He cant hear.
He isnt there.

and arguing that those are not the only choices. it is also possible that we do not know. so i didn't think it was off topic.
with that, i shall slither back in to the shadows.
:hiding:

[ranma1/2]

...Do we really need to depend on miracles as proof of anything?

In terms of existence, isn't the thought of regeneration for parts on a temporary body quite insignificant?

Although the ability of regeneration in many animal and plant forms is quite common, isn't it a greater miracle that people do not have that gift?

Wouldn't regeneration in Humans tend to give us a false view of our own mortality?

Is not the knowledge that we can permanently loose limbs a strong incentive to learn to do things that will not damage our temporary body?

1. a miracle that is not natural would be nice.
2. huh? how?
3.no.
4.no.
5.no. thats like saying you shouldnt go out of the house or you might get sick or hurt a toe.

[barney]

Or drive a car in case we fracture a skull.
Or ride a camel in case we break a leg.
Or drink from a stream in case we get typhoid.
That arguement has no weight.

Do we really need miracles? Well if we dont beleive that God can intervene, then why do we pray for the sick? If he cant hear us why do we praise him?

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/hea...er_for_health/

Here we have a study on how effective Christian prayer is. It has no effect.

Jesus's promises in Matthew's Gospel do not happen.

[glo]

I haven't read the whole thread all the way through, so apologies if I say things that have already been discussed ...

I do believe that God is all-powerful and that nothing is impossible for him.
I do believe that God can cause a great fish to swallow a prophet on the run from his appointed job.
I do believe that God can bring dead people back to life.
I do believe that God can cause a virgin to become pregnant.

Now, I don't believe these things because I have ever witnessed them for myself. Neither do I know anybody personally who has ever witnessed such things, or anybody who has managed to recreate such happenings in a scientific experiment.

I believe these things because an old book tells me so, and because I have a deep conviction that this book contains the truth!

I guess the real question non-believers cannot get their heads around is why anybody should believe these things, even if they fly in the face of scientific evidence.
And its not like only stupid and gullible people believe in God - amongst billions of believers there must at least be a few rational thinkers with a reasonable intellect ... :rollseyes

I think Joe put his finger on the difference between believers' and non-believers' thinking in post 6:
The non-believer says 'I have never seen an amputee regrow his leg, hence no other healings/miracles can be true either, hence God does not exist.'
The believer says 'I believe that God exists and I see his presence in my daily life and in things which happen to me. Hence I believe, even if I have never witnesses an amputee regrowing his leg.'

As for the power of prayer, we have had some other very interesting threads on prayer not so long ago, which discussed whether or not prayer is some kind of 'magic wand' which causes God to do what we want.

I have never heard of any amputee regrowing a leg, and it would be great if it ever happened.
But you will find that believers on the whole tend not to question why God does or doesn't do certain things.
Part of believing in God means to humble yourself and accept his will - even if it isn't what we wanted ... and to trust that God has a purpose in every situation.

You raise some good questions, barney. I will look into verses you gave some more.

Peace

[barney]

Cheers Glo, thats a very open and honest answer.

I go along with the sig's in here that read "for the skeptic no proof is enough. For the beleiver no proof is needed" Sums it up nicely i think.

Regards. :)

[glo]

Jesus's promises in Matthew's Gospel do not happen.

Hi barney

Thank you for your last post. :)

I've had some more thoughts on your original post, with regards to Jesus' promises that whatever we ask for in his name we will receive.

Taken and applied on their own these statements could be downright dangerous.
What I mean is this:
If prayer truly was a 'magic wand' and by asking God in 'the right way' we can get everything we wish for, then non-answered prayers can only lead us to one worrying conclusion: we have not prayed hard enough or we have not prayed with enough faith ...!
Now, I for one would not like to suggest to somebody who has a loved one dying from cancer, that the reason s/he is dying is because the relative did not have enough faith!
To come to this conclusion would lead to shame and guilt - and those are two of the most destructive emotions possible.

Add to the verses you posted above, examples which Jesus gave us on how to pray:

'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
(Matthew 6:9-10)

"My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
(Matthew 26:42)

"Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."
(Mark 14:36)

From Jesus' own example we can conclude that God's will is paramount, and we cannot assume to have our prayers answered unless God is willing and unless they are in line with his will in the first place.

So, personally I disagree with the notion that we can expect God to come up with the goods, everytime we ask for anything in prayer.

Of course, I know of Christians who take exactly that attitude, and who quote exactly those verses you quoted in your original post - if only you pray sincerely and full of faith, then you will receive ...
[Perhaps then, there is the answer to your amputee riddle - nobody has ever prayed with enough faith to regrow a leg ... if they did it would happen! (Forgive me, if I sound a little cynical. I am not trying to be flippant with regards to disability.)]

Indeed, it seems to me that Muslims seem more accepting of what God has for them and what life he has given them, whereas I know Christians (at least in affluent Western countries) who seem to be asking God forever for better and greater blessings ...
Perhaps that's something we can learn from our Muslim brothers and sisters.

I feel that I am going on now ... please forgive me.
It just means that you made me think ...! :D

Peace and God's blessings (in whatever shape and form they may come) :)

[Woodrow]

Both Barney and Glo just got me to thinking.

The works and miracles of God(as) are not magic tricks for our amusement. We are not here for the purpose of getting God(swt) to obey us and grant us our wishes. Our purpose is to worship God(swt).

If we are too blind to see the miracles to be found in a single drop of water, we can not fully see or appreciate the glory of the mightiest wave.


There is no lack of miracles. We just need to remember we are not the ones in control of miracles.

[barney]

Woody:

Absolutley agree with you. God isnt going to be some sort of circus magician, his will would be paramount. If he chose to heal a virus then he would do it. If he chose to grow back a hand, he would do it.

My standpoint is that, although he heals viruses as seen by many christian prayer circles and Muslim groups offering dua every day, he dosnt do the physically impossible stuff.

So is he capable of doing it? Of course.
Is he merciful? So it is said.
Is he just? So it is said.
Does he do it? Nope.

Is it a statistical flaw? Perhaps all the prayers for healing of limbs and other stuff might suddenly kick in tommorow.
Mayby those prayed for diddnt have enough prayers or hard enough prayers or sincere enough?

Glo. it's not my position that God is some vending machine for our earthly wants. you say we cant expect God to come up with the Goods everytime we pray. Well no.
What about 5% of the time? 1%? 0.03%?
Or Zero Percent?

Lets take some people with breast cancer. The recovery rate in the UK is 87%
Lets say that the 87% of christians that are prayed for and recover accept gods hand in this recovery.
The 87% of atheists who recover thank the Surgons and medical science for their hand in it, and their bodies defences.

The recovery rate is the same and studies have proved this.

Lets take a Finger amputee.
0% of finger amputees will regrow that finger, so god's intervention drops from 87% to 0%. A billion prayers would not change that.

Now a Doctor might be able to sew the finger back on if they are quick enough, it's weaker and has less grip, but its 60% or something of the time sewed on successfuly. Human intervention has worked, the prayer diddnt.

The root of this question is CAN HE HEAR US.
We were told How to pray and when and where, but we dont seem to be getting it right for healing of things that would not heal themselves anyway.

There is no lack of miracles if we call natural phenomenon miracles. By this i mean gods intervention directly in a case.

[Woodrow]

Woody:

Absolutley agree with you. God isnt going to be some sort of circus magician, his will would be paramount. If he chose to heal a virus then he would do it. If he chose to grow back a hand, he would do it.

True

My standpoint is that, although he heals viruses as seen by many christian prayer circles and Muslim groups offering dua every day, he dosnt do the physically impossible stuff.

Perhaps sometimes we have to experience things first hand. Sadly we are very hard headed creatures. In my younger days I have been pronounced dead at least twice. I had my body shattered apparently beyond repair. Back then I attributed my recovery to the skills of an excellent orthopedic surgeon. I will not belittle his skills, but now that I am older I do wonder why some of his patients with much less severe injuries than I had did not survive. Was I lucky? Did he have a good day or could it be as I now believe, I was spared for some purpose that I do not understand.

So is he capable of doing it? Of course.
Is he merciful? So it is said.
Is he just? So it is said.
Does he do it? Nope.

I believe he often does it, but not in the manner we always expect. I have met more than one person with severe spinal cord injuries who intialy prayed for recovery and later said that because of their injuries they had gained more than they lost and that they would gladly give up their arms and legs again, to find what they have found. Perhaps that inner growth is the miracle and it surpasses any physical restoration.

Is it a statistical flaw? Perhaps all the prayers for healing of limbs and other stuff might suddenly kick in tommorow.
Mayby those prayed for diddnt have enough prayers or hard enough prayers or sincere enough?

all of the above and none of the above. I am certain at times any of those do apply. I am also certain that the true miracles that seem to be happening today are inner miracles and not readily seen by all eyes. Perhaps this is because doctors are now being given the guidence to learn to repair physical damage and that is part of the miracle and deeper miracles are needed, to be less confused with human abilities.

Lets take some people with breast cancer. The recovery rate in the UK is 87%
Lets say that the 87% of christians that are prayed for and recover accept gods hand in this recovery.
The 87% of atheists who recover thank the Surgons and medical science for their hand in it, and their bodies defences.

I do not know why God(swt) permits some to heal and some not to. Perhaps in those case it would be more interesting if we could figure out why the ones who are not healed were not healed. Certainly, the medical procedures would have been nearly identical. Why did they not survive? The miracle may turn out to be in the fact that some did not survive.

The recovery rate is the same and studies have proved this.

Or perhaps God(swt) does not chose by the same standards we do?

Lets take a Finger amputee.
0% of finger amputees will regrow that finger, so god's intervention drops from 87% to 0%. A billion prayers would not change that.

Possibly God(swt) has given us the knowledge for self healing and we are just slow in learning how to apply it.

Now a Doctor might be able to sew the finger back on if they are quick enough, it's weaker and has less grip, but its 60% or something of the time sewed on successfuly. Human intervention has worked, the prayer diddnt.

How did the human gain the skills for human intervention?

The root of this question is CAN HE HEAR US.
We were told How to pray and when and where, but we dont seem to be getting it right for healing of things that would not heal themselves anyway.

Or we fail to see it even when it happens.

There is no lack of miracles if we call natural phenomenon miracles. By this i mean gods intervention directly in a case.

True.


I suspect this is going to be a futile and very moot debate no matter how far we pursue it. Possibly we are trying to discuss something that neither of us is capable of seeing as the other sees it.

[barney]

I suspect this is going to be a futile and very moot debate no matter how far we pursue it. Possibly we are trying to discuss something that neither of us is capable of seeing as the other sees it.

Yup! But its interesting and also Important, because it forms the bedrock of religion.

Regards

[glo]

Yup! But its interesting and also Important, because it forms the bedrock of religion.

Regards

Hi barney

Just now I came across a discussion on unanswered prayer, which you may find interesting. I certainly touches on some of the things we have discussed in this thread.
It's on a Christian TV station, so I won't post the link here. I'll PM you the details and you can decide what you want to do with it.

Peace