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metalted
08-06-2007, 05:19 AM
Alot, If you want peace in Israel/Palestine you must speak up against all injustice whether it is Israels injustice, or Palestine. Israelies are frequently dumbfounded by the intense criticism it endlessly gets while very little is said about palestine problems. And such palestine milks it for money and sympathy and to further isolate its arch enemy, Israel...

Who are the Heroes?
January 28, 2007

Who are the Heroes?

Schools, streets, and soccer teams are often named after important people who are presented as role models for children. In the United States, Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln are among the most popular school names in honor of three of the most important U.S. Presidents. Many of those who have streets and schools named after them have served their communities admirably and helped improve many lives. This is true in the United States and throughout much of the world.

However, in areas under the control of the Palestinian Authority, it is alarming to see who schools and streets are named after. Recently, former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein was honored throughout the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Palestinian Media Watch brings us this information from the popular Palestinian newspaper Al Hayat. According to Al Hayat:

Public figures (in the Palestinian village of Yaabid) and the Factions in Yaabid decided to name one of the schools in the municipality and its most important street after Saddam (Hussein) to immortalize his memory and to emphasize the values of Arabness and Jihad, which he represented...[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, January 4, 2007]

PMW has other examples of the glorification of those responsible for terror and violence. What is even more egregious is the fact that many of these places have been funded with American tax dollars.

1. After the US gave the Jenin municipality money for road works in the city, a block in the center of Jenin was named for the first Iraqi suicide terrorist who killed four American soldiers in Fallujah. The mayor of Jenin participated in the anti-American rally and the speakers blessed the "resistance of the residents of Fallujah" [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, April 4, 2004].

2. USAID funded the building of the Salaf Khalef Sports Center. Salef Khalef (Abu Iyad) the head of the Black September terror organization, was behind the killing of two US diplomats in Sudan and the 11 Israeli Olympic athletes. [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, May, 30, 2004]

3. USAID funded renovations of the Dalal Mughrabi School named in honor of Dalal Mughrabi and her terror group, who killed American photographer Gail Rubin and 36 Israelis. [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, December 14, 2004]
The message from the Palestinian Authority to children who attend schools named after terrorists and dictators is clear: these are people who should be admired and emulated.

TeachKidsPeace encourages the public to demand that public funds not be used to build public works projects that are named after terrorists.


http://teachkidspeace.org/docTemplate.php?id=10



If you want peace act on it end it spread it. This must not be tolerated.
These are the of tactics that will doom us civilization clashes..
this does not mean israel is innocent.. this just means you can not criticise only israel unless you seek its destruction and you seek terror and genocide.

if you are not convinced view this video. http://teachkidspeace.org/backToSchoolFlash.php
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Darkseid
08-06-2007, 06:38 PM
Israel is no longer the enemy of Palestine. Palestine is now its own arch enemy as the factionism between Hamas and Fatah has already shown.
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Haidar_Abbas
08-06-2007, 06:48 PM

Allah(SWT)'s land since the time of al Roosul Adem (alayhisalaam).
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NoName55
08-06-2007, 06:52 PM
I and my son were right to be afraid of you!

BTW you just broke a forum rule with posting a nation's flag
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AhlaamBella
08-06-2007, 07:16 PM
The horrors taking place in palestine disgust me. Children are dying and being orphaned everyday. I don't care who's to blame. STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT!!!!! :raging:
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wilberhum
08-06-2007, 07:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DeepOcean
The horrors taking place in palestine disgust me. Children are dying and being orphaned everyday. I don't care who's to blame. STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT!!!!! :raging:
As soon as every one thinks the dying in Israel needs to stop, the sooner there is a chance for all the dying to stop.
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AhlaamBella
08-06-2007, 07:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
As soon as every one thinks the dying in Israel needs to stop, the sooner there is a chance for all the dying to stop.
Thankyou! lol I never thought we would agree on something :D :giggling:
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metalted
08-07-2007, 01:04 AM
Shortly after the violence erupted in late-September 2000, the Palestinian Authority began using its controlled media to indoctrinate its children into not only just hating Israel, but also into wanting to die for Allah, a concept called Shahada in Arabic.

This indoctrination took many forms, including MTV-style music videos, childrens television shows and glorifying the memory of those children who had already 'achieved' Shahada.

Palestinian Media Watch noticed the beginning of this worrying trend and reported on it in this bulletin. Just a few weeks after the bulletin was released, a Palestinian child succeeded in realising his to become a shahid, or someone who died for Allah.

This collection of bulletins documents how the Palestinian Authority has attempted to - and succeeded in - brainwashing its children to want death, instead of life.

Palestinian Children Yearning Martyrdom,
Encouraged by Parents
November 30, 2000

Wajdi, 14: 'When I become a shahid, give out cake'

Executive Summary

"When I become a shahid [someone who dies for Allah], give out kannafa [sweet cake]."

These are the words that 14-year-old Wajdi Al-Hattab often said to his friends in the days prior to his death in the riots, as reported in the official Palestinian Authority daily paper.

The paper went on to report his 9th grade friends' reaction to his death: "they swore they would carry on, down the road of shahada [death for Allah]."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 9 November 2000]

Another boy who died in the fighting, 12-year-old Karam, so yearned for his own shahada, that he wrote his own "death announcements" on the walls of his own home.
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, November 30, 2000]

The scene has been replayed over and over during the past two months: Palestinian children going up against Israeli soldiers, even in situations involving gunfire and life-threatening situations. Many children are wounded or even killed as a result.

What motivates children to place themselves in such dangerous situations, so that at times it seems that they are seeking death?

From the PA media and education the apparent answer is that the children are pushed by their parents, teachers, friends and the education they receive in the Palestinian Authority schools glorifying death as shahids - as a supreme virtue.

As the number of those killed rises, the Palestinian media extols and exalts not only those killed, but also their willingness to die as shahids for Allah, emphasizing that dying a shahid's death was the realization of their hopes. Young children who are injured are said to seek a higher goal - heroic death for Allah.

By examining closely what the children and their parents are saying it is likely that there are young children who are going directly to areas of conflict with the clear goal of endangering their lives, in order to please their parents, friends, and teachers.

The following are a number of stories among many that were prominently reported in the Palestinian media. In particular, note the positive attitude of parents toward their children's death, and the statements of injured children that they seek a higher goal, death and Shahada.

"The Shahid Wajdi Al-Hattab (9th grade) responded to the call of Allah and achieved the Shahada that he yearned for, so that it would clear the way for the liberation of Al-Aqsa and Palestine from the defilement of the occupation. He would always say to his friends: 'When I become a shahid, give out kannafa [sweet cake]. He always spoke about his uncle who became a shahid in southern Lebanon, and yearned to become a shahid like him - and [now] he attained what he yearned for. He reached the highest levels with Allah... [Wajdi's gym teacher relates:] Wajdi asked me to give out kannafa if he becomes a shahid… His classmates swore that they would continue in the path of Shahada until the liberation of Jerusalem..."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, November 9, 2000]

"The danger of injury of the boy Saber Al-Ashkar (aged 18), paralysis and permanent disability, just added to his mother's determination to encourage her sons to participate in the Intifada riots ... and the fact of his injury by a live bullet did not cause her to mourn... She said that she had [previously] lost her older son Iyad, and described him as the first flower that appeared in her life. She is not interested in anything but encouraging her sons to self-sacrifice and Shahada for the land of Palestine…"
[Al-Ayyam, November 1, 2000]

A PA TV broadcast conducted conversations with 2nd grade school children. An interviewer spoke with a child who had thrown stones in the riots.

Interviewer: "You threw stones at the army and injured your leg. Will you throw again?"

Child: "Yes."

Interviewer: "You aren't afraid to die?"

Child: [embarrassed, hesitant]

Interviewer: [indicates "No" to the child by shaking her head in the negative]

Child: "No"
[PA TV, October 19, 2000. See this interview here.]

"The Boy Shahid Karam Al-Kard [12] announced of his own death on the walls of his home

"Prior to his being injured ... Karam announced his own death on the walls of his home and attributed to himself Shahada and its honor, in his handwriting on the walls. The notice read: 'The Al-Kard family announces the death of its courageous Shahid Karam Fat'he Al-Kard..."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, November 30, 2000]

"The Shahid Wajdi [aged 14, said] to his father: 'I will bring you a Shahada that you will be proud of for the rest of your life'. His mother says: 'My son is not my son only, he belongs to his noble Palestinian people... One of his friends said that the last words of the Shahid, that he repeated over and over, spoke of the significance of Shahada and on becoming a shahid."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, November 8, 2000]

"[He] sacrificed his son (aged 18) in order to redeem the homeland and Jerusalem. He stated that becoming a shahid is a tremendous source of pride and a medal on his chest... He added that his son always spoke about Shahada and his desire to become a shahid."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, November 9, 2000]

The Shahid Muhammad Abu Tahoun wrote down his final words on his notebook: 'The shahids will attain Paradise, and I will be with them, Allah willing...'"
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, November 9, 2000]

"The father [of Mohammed Hiza' Halas, 23] [has] great pride that his progeny has become a shahid... With regard to his mother, she says that her offspring wished to become a shahid and she anticipated it."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, November 2, 2000]

"Our blood is a sign of our fighting for our precious Palestine"
[A teacher, next to pupils on PA TV, November 2, 2000]

"What pushes our children and youth to the arenas of death...? [Ramadan Saadi Abd Rabbo, an injured 13-year-old, said] 'my goal is not to be injured, but rather something higher - Shahada.'"
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, November 8, 2000]

"The wounded 11-year-old, Amr Qarut, wants to win the honor of a shahid's death ... and he insists on continuing the [violent] struggle."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, November 6, 2000]

"The wounded Sa'ed Awad Allah [11], from the Jaballiya [refugee] camp said: 'We are all potential shahids for Jerusalem and the Homeland"
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, November 6, 2000]

"We must battle until we achieve peace on our own and until our blood will not be spilt for naught, we must battle and die in order to attain all that we want."
[8-year-old girl Halah Badir, Al-Ayyam, November 2, 2000]

"[22-year-old Hazem Mussa Abu Def's] brother ... feels honor and pride from his brother's becoming a shahid ... and added that he intends to continue on the path started by his brother."
[Al-Ayyam, November 2, 2000]

"I will take my soul in my hand and toss it into the abyss of death. And then either life that will gladden friends or death that will anger the enemy. The honorable soul has two objectives; achieving death and honor."
['Song of the Shahid, recited by schoolgirls, PA TV, October 27, 2000. The poem also appears in 5th, 6th and 12th grade PA schoolbooks]

This current promotion of Shahda is part of a long-term phenomenon in Palestinian society. PA television in 1998 described two mothers' joy at their children's Shahada in the Intifada, as follows:

Narrator: "...the heroine was shot ... and her pure blood flowing and her pure spirit joyously going to her creator..."

Girl's Mother: "I asked: who is she that died? She told me - 'it's your daughter.' I said: 'Thank Allah, thank Allah. We have a right to liberate our homeland and we will liberate it. It is our honor to fall… She would say 'it doesn't matter, I will die for the redemption of the homeland,' meaning - I want to die for the redemption of the homeland… Intisar fell and it is an honor for us and an honor for our children…"

Relative of the family: "...Every time she heard a bang [she said] 'someone was shot, I hope that next time it will be me, I want to die as a shahida [a female who dies for Allah].
[PA TV, October 7, 1998]

Mother of Muhammad [who was killed in the riots]: "...I hope that all my children will be shahids..."
[PA TV, September 9, 1998]

Read the front-page Jerusalem Post article written in response to this report here.
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metalted
08-07-2007, 05:13 AM
Does terrorism work?

The supposed logic behind terrorism is to kill or make examples of civilians in order for them to be intimidated into accepting or changing policies of a ruling entity.

In israel the results are clear, more terrorism equals more anger and more willingness to use wide sweeping methods against the population as a whole.. If terrorism methods are aimed to spread fear, then perhaps the saying is true.. 'You hate the things you fear.'

but the same is true is the USA, Britain, Iraq, The Middle east, and increasingly in continental Europe.

In Iraq the notorious Sunni triangle, the people there are joining forces with american military to expell the atrocious Al Qaida of which has been terrorizing the locals horrifically, stealing thier women and marrying them off to thier gunman, beheadings bombings.... So the unthinkable has happened...the Al An Bar province is becoming a largely safe place to travel in.

During the Vietnam war The US military defeated and disrupted the Viet Cong so badly that they needed an entire two years to recover. After which they invaded South Vietnam. The withdraw from Vietnam was a political decision, due to the same very same self-defeatist perception we see today. Ironic how the United States always wins, it just always thinks it's lost.

However if one major terrorist attack on US soil was to occur, and it does not nearly need to be half as big as 9-11, the public would rally to government, and enlistment into the military would increase.

In britian we have more racial slogans being named on bridges and buildings after the recent car bombings grafiti slogans with the words 'death to pakis'.. terrorism met with terrorism of a different sort....

In the Middle east there is a general down turn of the public support for al qaida and terrorism in general after suicide attacks in these countries...



We are finding again and again that terrorism as a tactic is useless as a means to effect change. It is however an effective means to provoke hate and war, which appears that seems to be alqaida's aims.
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metalted
08-07-2007, 05:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DeepOcean
The horrors taking place in palestine disgust me. Children are dying and being orphaned everyday. I don't care who's to blame. STOP PUNISHING THE INNOCENT!!!!! :raging:
amen.
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ahsan28
08-21-2007, 08:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
Israel is no longer the enemy of Palestine.
Any change in their policy, which supports your statement? The Israelis say that they happen to be the chosen people of the lord and others are gentiles, then how can one imagine both living together in peace?
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ahsan28
08-21-2007, 02:21 PM
News From A Palestinian Christian In Bethlehem



You see, we Palestinians from the Bethlehem area (the birthplace of Jesus) are now denied entry to over 90 percent of Palestine and even to our capital and major economic center, Jerusalem (which is merely 7 miles from Bethlehem).

Six of the 10 million Palestinians in the world are now refugees or displaced people and the remaining Palestinians live in increasingly shrinking and impoverished ghettos. The trend is the same: maximizing geography (under Israeli control) and minimizing demography (Palestinians on their land). Israeli authorities have evolved ingenious ways of ethnic cleansing since the more direct uprooting practiced in 1947-1949, when 850,000 Palestinians were driven out.

In this season of fruits and vegetables, villagers still try to sell products from their shrinking land holdings. But this brings much less money than in the old days when they had more land and were free to move and sell their products in large cities like Jerusalem or Jaffa or Nablus (or even to other countries). The cancer of the settlements built on Palestinian lands grows more destructive.

All of this is done contrary to International law and with full US military, diplomatic, and economic support.


16 Aug 2007

http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/3059
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ahsan28
08-21-2007, 03:13 PM
Settlers cut Palestinian water supply to fill swimming pool



Residents of the settlement of Elon Moreh in the West Bank have cut a pipe carrying drinking water to a nearby Palestinian village, and are using it to fill a swimming pool located at a picnic site, which was itself built on land owned by the village.

The pipe, which carries water to the village of Dir al-Khatab, was rerouted in order to fill the pool. The pipe channels fresh drinking water into the pool and drains dirty water back into the village's water system.


"They not only use water that doesn't belong to them, but they also pollute the drinking water " said Yoel Marshak, head of the Kibbutz Movement's Special Assignments Branch. "The little kids pee in the water, which flows straight to the taps of the Palestinian school."



19 Aug 2007


http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/Art...439192,00.html
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shev
08-21-2007, 03:35 PM
It is easy to talk and blame people here. but we don't know the real situation and political games that are being played. when you belive in politics and know it well you can make an innocent poeple kill innocent people and make them see it as if they do a holly duty...
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ahsan28
08-21-2007, 03:43 PM
The whole world knows about the real situation in Palestine. Political games are played by the zionists, not by the poor and besieged palestinians, who have been robbed of their own native lands by the illegal settlers.
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NoName55
08-21-2007, 03:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by shev
It is easy to talk and blame people here. but we don't know the real situation and political games that are being played. when you belive in politics and know it well you can make an innocent poeple kill innocent people and make them see it as if they do a holly duty...
who is doing that in this thread???
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guyabano
08-21-2007, 03:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ahsan28
Settlers cut Palestinian water supply to fill swimming pool



Residents of the settlement of Elon Moreh in the West Bank have cut a pipe carrying drinking water to a nearby Palestinian village, and are using it to fill a swimming pool located at a picnic site, which was itself built on land owned by the village.

The pipe, which carries water to the village of Dir al-Khatab, was rerouted in order to fill the pool. The pipe channels fresh drinking water into the pool and drains dirty water back into the village's water system.


"They not only use water that doesn't belong to them, but they also pollute the drinking water " said Yoel Marshak, head of the Kibbutz Movement's Special Assignments Branch. "The little kids pee in the water, which flows straight to the taps of the Palestinian school."



19 Aug 2007


http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/Art...439192,00.html
This certainly doesn't contribute to peace in middle east. That is shameful for the jews, for sure ! Drinking water is certainly more important than filling a pool
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NoName55
08-21-2007, 04:01 PM
That is shameful for the jews
Not so! only for the individuals responsible! (these shameful acts do not benefit world Jewry, only evangelist monster, deadly enemy of both Jew and Muslim)

BTW. I find subliminal trolling just as despicable as open baiting to provoke negative post from some overly emotional person!
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aamirsaab
08-23-2007, 02:02 PM
:sl:
Unless it occurs in your own back yard, you will forget about it. That being said, I forgot to mow my lawn...

The Palestine and Israel conflict cannot be solved with a simple math equation. Try quantum or astro physics.

Ah my wonderful words of wisdom. :statisfie
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MTAFFI
08-23-2007, 02:15 PM
an easier question to answer would be, what ISNT wrong in palestine and israel :(
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ahsan28
08-24-2007, 03:16 PM
Israel Bans School Supplies to Gaza



Gaza, Aug 21 (Prensa Latina) The Israeli government forbade the entrance of paper for making text books to children from Gaza Strip, denounced Palestinian-Israeli Information-Investigation Center (CIIPI).

A released issued by the institution revealed that Palestinian children will attend the classrooms in September without their pens, pencils, books.




http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp...d)&language=EN
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Re.TiReD
08-24-2007, 03:20 PM
This world was created imperfect, humankind was created with differing opinions on good and evil, right and wrong. Man was created with emotion- to decide for himself which side to sympathise with. Let us not discriminate against pain, let us see the suffering of all. Evil is from the Shaytaan
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MTAFFI
08-24-2007, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JihadAnNafs
This world was created imperfect, humankind was created with differing opinions on good and evil, right and wrong. Man was created with emotion- to decide for himself which side to sympathise with. Let us not discriminate against pain, let us see the suffering of all. Evil is from the Shaytaan
perfectly said
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ahsan28
08-26-2007, 02:42 PM
Call to boycott israel goes global


"Those calling for a boycott of Israel were once distant voices. Now the discussion has gone global. It is growing inexorably and will not be silenced."

The ethnic cleansing of Palestine is as much America's crusade as Israel's. On 16 August, the Bush administration announced an unprecedented $30bn military "aid package" for Israel, the world's fourth biggest military power, an air power greater than Britain, a nuclear power greater than France.

No other country on earth enjoys such immunity, allowing it to act without sanction, as Israel.

No other country has such a record of lawlessness: not one of the world's tyrannies comes close.

International treaties, such as the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, ratified by Iran, are ignored by Israel. There is nothing like it in UN history.

But something is changing.

1. The initiatives have been backed by a British group, Independent Jewish Voices, whose 528 signatories include Stephen Fry, Harold Pinter, Mike Leigh and Eric Hobsbawm. The country's biggest union, Unison, has called for an "economic, cultural, academic and sporting boycott" and the right of return for Palestinian families expelled in 1948.

2. Remarkably, the Commons' international development committee has made a similar stand.

3. In April, the membership of the National Union of Journalists (NUJ) voted for a boycott only to see it hastily overturned by the national executive council.

4. In the Republic of Ireland, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions has called for divestment from Israeli companies: a campaign aimed at the European Union, which accounts for two-thirds of Israel's exports under an EU-Israel Association Agreement.

5. The UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food, Jean Ziegler, has said that human rights conditions in the agreement should be invoked and Israel's trading preferences suspended.

Would the Israeli population be moved by a worldwide boycott? Although they would rarely admit it, South Africa's whites were moved enough to support an historic change.

A boycott of Israeli institutions, goods and services, says Pappé, "will not change the [Israeli] position in a day, but it will send a clear message that the premises of Zionism are racist and unacceptable in the 21st century . . . They would have to choose."

And so would the rest of us.

You are either with them or against them.



http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/3185
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NoName55
08-26-2007, 03:25 PM
following that logic boycotters should stop using computers and windows (and a gazillion other things) forthwith as these have bits and pieces made in Israel.
A boycott of Israeli institutions, goods and services, says Pappé, "will not change the [Israeli] position in a day,
if applied meticulously, boycott could bring the world to a halt for Jewish inventors have a hand in almost everything considered essential today. by the way while we are at it should we give up our Nuclear devices too since atom splitter was a Jew? I am sure hindus will love us for that as they can resume slicing us without fear, since we will be stripped of our defences
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ahsan28
08-28-2007, 06:13 PM
Why the US and Israel Should Lose Middle East Wars


U.S. policies in the Middle East since 9/11 have already caused a million or so killings and have created more injustice in the world than existed formerly. Every day results in more killings, more injustice. Unless might does indeed make right, we have no right whatever to win these wars. We should lose them.

My personal belief is that the United States and Israel will inevitably lose these wars over time in any case. If this loss is in fact inevitable, conventional wisdom would argue that it is better for the loss to happen rapidly in order to hold casualties down.

A lasting peace in the Middle East will only happen, of course, if the U.S. and Israel are wise enough publicly (and honestly) to end their drive for joint imperium over the Middle East and Central Asia and also to cease their efforts to bring about regime change in Iran and Syria. In other words, as has long been the case, the U.S. and Israel will need to make serious long-term changes in their own foreign policies if they wish to avoid a conflict lasting for generations that ultimately they cannot win.

By BILL CHRISTISON
Former CIA Analyst

August 27 2007


http://www.counterpunch.org/christison08272007.html
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wilberhum
08-28-2007, 07:23 PM
BILL CHRISTISON, like everyone else is entitled to there openion.
As far as lasting peace in the Middle East, in my openion will never happen.
As long as Isreal exists, it's neighbors will not allow it.

Does anyone know the last time there was peace in the Middle East? :skeleton:
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Zman
08-29-2007, 03:58 AM

What's wrong with Palestine?

It's American interference; America supplying the failed state of Israel with weapons of mass destruction; America protecting and condoning Israel's atrocities with its Veto power.

It is also Israel's wars of aggression; theft of land, expulsion of its rightful owners and natives (Ethnic Cleansing); economic and medical strangulation, etc.

What befell the Palestinians and their land is also the responsibility of some European governments.

PMW has other examples of the glorification of those responsible for terror and violence. What is even more egregious is the fact that many of these places have been funded with American tax dollars.

1. After the US gave the Jenin municipality money for road works in the city, a block in the center of Jenin was named for the first Iraqi suicide terrorist who killed four American soldiers in Fallujah. The mayor of Jenin participated in the anti-American rally and the speakers blessed the "resistance of the residents of Fallujah" [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, April 4, 2004].

2. USAID funded the building of the Salaf Khalef Sports Center. Salef Khalef (Abu Iyad) the head of the Black September terror organization, was behind the killing of two US diplomats in Sudan and the 11 Israeli Olympic athletes. [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, May, 30, 2004]

3. USAID funded renovations of the Dalal Mughrabi School named in honor of Dalal Mughrabi and her terror group, who killed American photographer Gail Rubin and 36 Israelis. [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, December 14, 2004]
The message from the Palestinian Authority to children who attend schools named after terrorists and dictators is clear: these are people who should be admired and emulated.
You failed to mention the American taxpayers money & advanced weapons that are given to the Pariah state of Israel to Ethnically Cleanse Palestinians; to wage wars of aggression against its neighbors; to occupy and repress the original occupants of that beleagured land.

You also failed to mention the glorification (in our media, by our politicians, by some Americans who are actually Israel's obedient lapdogs) of Israeli violance, racism and hatred against its Arab neighbors, Muslims and Christians, alike..
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wilberhum
08-29-2007, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman

What's wrong with Palestine?

It's American interference; America supplying the failed state of Israel with weapons of mass destruction; America protecting and condoning Israel's atrocities with its Veto power.

It is also Israel's wars of aggression; theft of land, expulsion of its rightful owners and natives (Ethnic Cleansing); economic and medical strangulation, etc.

What befell the Palestinians and their land is also the responsibility of some European governments.



You failed to mention the American taxpayers money & advanced weapons that are given to the Pariah state of Israel to Ethnically Cleanse Palestinians; to wage wars of aggression against its neighbors; to occupy and repress the original occupants of that beleagured land.

You also failed to mention the glorification (in our media, by our politicians, by some Americans who are actually Israel's obedient lapdogs) of Israeli violance, racism and hatred against its Arab neighbors, Muslims and Christians, alike..
Right, your country is responsible for all the problems. Not only Palestine, but the entire world.
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ahsan28
08-30-2007, 04:37 PM
Weekly Report: On Israeli Human Rights Violations in the Occupied Palestinian Territory ( 23 - 29 August 2007)


1. 12 Palestinians including 6 Children killed by IOF and a 13th Dies of previous Wounds.

2. 3 children killed in 2 extra-judicial executions.

3. 5 children killed by excessive force in the Gaza Strip.

4. 33 Palestinians, including 11 children and a mentally ill person, were wounded by IOF gunfire in the OPT.

5. Mother and brother of a killed child among the injured.

6. IOF conducted 21 incursions into Palestinian communities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

7. IOF arrested 30 Palestinian civilians in the West Bank and 13 in the Gaza Strip.

8. IOF raze 12 Dunums of agricultural land in the southern Gaza Strip.

9. IOF have continued to impose a total siege on the OPT, and continues to isolate the Gaza Strip from the outside world.

10. Severe humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip due to the closure.




http://uruknet.info/?p=m35811&hd=&size=1&l=e
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wilberhum
08-30-2007, 04:42 PM
How many rockets did Palestinians fire to kill Isralies? :offended:
Reply

ahsan28
08-30-2007, 04:48 PM
Torture In Israeli Prisons


Today, more than 8,000 Palestinians are locked in Israel's prisons, most without due process. For the majority, their crime is resisting a nation that violently stole 90 percent of their parents' and grandparents' land and possessions and expelled them to wretched detention camps in Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon.These sons and grandsons were imprisoned for crimes ranging from stone-throwing at Israeli tanks to violent terrorist activity. As prisoners, they have virtually no rights. Many are held without charge or trial. They can be legally tortured without restraint.

Since every Palestinian prisoner may be viewed as possessing information valuable to preventing terrorist attacks, virtually all have been tortured. The Palestine Monitor reports that since 1987 the Israeli Security Agency has tortured at least 850 Palestinians a year during interrogations. Since the Supreme Court ruling in 1999, according to the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselm, 85 percent of Palestinian prisoners are still subjected to torture.

The Palestine Monitor says that methods of interrogation and torture frequently used by Israeli security service include:
Tying up detainees in painful positions for hours or days.

Containment in tiny cramped spaces (for days, prisoners have been stuffed in boxes about 2 feet square and 5 feet high, often with spiked floors).

Prolonged beatings.

Enclosing the detainee's head in a sack (often soaked with urine and feces).

Violent "shaking" (Physicians for Human Rights says this has caused brain damage, even death).

Bending body in extremely painful positions.

Prolonged exposure to extreme cold or heat.

Sexual, verbal, and psychological abuse.

Threats against the individual's life or family members' lives.

Choking and pulling out hair (prisoners have been forced to swallow hair).


29 August 2007


http://uruknet.info/?p=m35790&hd=&size=1&l=e
Reply

Zman
08-30-2007, 04:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Right, your country is responsible for all the problems. Not only Palestine, but the entire world.

We are responsible for the vast majority of mankinds man-made ills.

We shaped the world after WWII.

We proclaimed ourselves as "global cop."

We were one-of-2-superpowers, so, back then it was us and the Soviets who created hell on earth.

Now, since we are the sole superpower and took it as our divine right to intervene, spread demockracy, and "human rights", the American way of life & values, everywhere, we are responsible for most of the worlds woes...
Reply

Zman
08-30-2007, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
How many rockets did Palestinians fire to kill Isralies? :offended:

And, how many missiles, artillery shells, tank fire, snipers shots, assassinations, etc, did the IOF discharge in order to murder Palestinians?

Compare the numbers of Palestinians who were murdered by Israeli's to those Israeli's who were killed by Palestinians...
Reply

ahsan28
08-30-2007, 05:01 PM
Red Cross Describes Torture

A number of detainees have undergone torture during interrogation by the military police. According to the evidence, the torture took the following forms:

1. Suspension of the detainees by the hands and the simultaneous traction of his other members for hours at a time until he loses consciousness.

2. Burns with cigarette stubs.

3. Blows with rods on the genitals.

4. Tying up and blindfolding for days.

5. Bites by dogs.

6. Electric shocks at the temples, the mouth, the chest and testicles.


As a result, the Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem tells us "there are many thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese who are disabled as a result of long years of imprisonment and torture".


http://uruknet.info/?p=m35790&hd=&size=1&l=e
Reply

ahsan28
08-30-2007, 05:19 PM
Where are You ? - Ban Kee Moon,General Secretary of United Nations"...
I have a message from Gaza Strip for you




"I write to you this Message and Hope you can read it from your Heart , and be so merciful with me. I don't know what to do , There are No way to get out of Gaza Strip, to have some medial health cure outside, even for my little 2yr old daughter , I don't know what to do really!

I have prepared all my medical papers to get out from here to Egypt to do some medical tests there for my health and for the eyes of my daughter. As you know she has a condition called "lazy eye" (the right eye).and I don't know how to go out from here ...


I really think of to Bombing my self , I am fed up with this life

- No reason to stay alive !

- I dislike Life ..... I hope some one will Kill me


I see my Friends lost his eye this spring and he has a Visa to Spain, to do this operation ,and If he will not reach Spain sooner he will lose also his second eye.....

-I see poverty everywhere..small children are selling papers,newspapers,under the hot sun.

-I see many people lost their Health because there is NO Cross-Accesses Road open.

We Face Death all the time . Not only Siege , and there is ongoing Israelis Terrorist operations in the Gaza Strip everyday and night.I am Not Hamas or Fateh ......I am a Palestinian ."

From a "Palestinian Citizen" in Gaza Strip

August 28 2007


http://uruknet.info/?p=m35781&hd=&size=1&l=e
Reply

Woodrow
08-30-2007, 05:54 PM
The arguments are getting to be personal. Address only the topic, not the member.

I do not like getting writer's cramp from typing infractions. But, I do have enough aspirins to dull the cramps enough so I can type.
Reply

rachamim
08-30-2007, 05:56 PM
DeepOcean and others: Perhaps, as an Israeli i might offer some perspective. Yes, children ARe suffering in both Gaza and the "WB," but why? You obviously blame Israelis, but is it not true that in 1919 "Palestinians" were offered statehood just like the Zionists?

Is it not true that the "Palestinian" offer was a full60% bigger than the Zionist's? Arabs said no. 3 years later, in 1922 the UK who ruled the land broke off a full 40% of the Arab partition and created Trans-Jordan as a gift to the Hasehmi clan from Hejaz.

From 1920 onward "Palestinians" iniated a spate of violent terrorism. It began with the annihilation of two Jewish villages in the north: Metullah and Tel Chai. Jews offered no organised response to this until 1936. In that time my own family who had lived in Hebron since the Bible was massacarred (1929, Hebron). Yet we, and most other Jews agreed to peacefully coexist with Arabs. Arabs still refused.

Finally in 36 we fought back, and in 47 the UN again offered both Zionists and Arabs coexisting states. Again Zionists accepted, Arabs did not. It remained so up until Oslo. Oslo was a chance at soemthing different but unfortunately, and I do not wish to revisit past mistakes, Arafat blew it. Personal enrichment over statehood.

In 1993 US Envoy Ross borkered a deal that would give 100 percent of all post Greenline territory to Arabs, along with E. Jerusalem and Right of Return but Arafat said no.

So...Why are those children suffering?
Reply

rachamim
08-30-2007, 06:01 PM
Ahsan: Perhpas if you had ever truly asked a Jew about their faith, you might have known that "Chosen People" is not some form of brgadoccia. it means the Jews accepted a terrible burden, not that they are favored per se. We follow 613 Commandments/Blessings. All non-Jews need only follow 7 and yet we of all 3 monotheistic faiths teach all who follow those 7 will enjoy the Heavenly Kingdom. Pray tell, what is negative about that?

As for the ridiculous call to boycott Israel, you might be embarrssed once you realise that Israel invented the processor in your computer, the same one you are using to call for boycottingIsrael. Funny, wonder if you will continue to post now.

Israel also invented Instant Messaging technology, cell phones, and many other things so that should you use any modern form of communications, you are using Israeli technology. Should you wish to boycott us, please stop using our technology.
Reply

wilberhum
08-30-2007, 06:07 PM
Most on this Forum will only look at one side of any problem.

I find the actions of Israel quite discusting.

I find the actions of the Palestinians totally discusting.
Reply

rachamim
08-30-2007, 06:07 PM
Ahslan: I do not mean to antagonise you but feel some things you say need addressing. You speak of Bet'l'chem. You say Jesus was born there. Was Jesus "Palestinian? Is the name Bet'l'chem not Hebrew in origin (house of bread)?

You speak of being cut off from Jerusalem. Had "Palestinians" even once accpeted statehgood in the many times it has been offered from 1919 onward, you would have free access. As it is, you can still get there. When Arabs ruled it we could not. Our holiest of holies was literally used as an outhouse and piggery by the Jordanians. Now all who come in peace may dwell in peace, as the Yebusi who named the city once intended (tent of peace).

You speak of unsubstaniated reports of torture in Israeli prisons. do you even realise that Israel allows inspections of its prisons. If you are, as you claim, "Palestinian," then you of course know Israel also allows prisoners' families to visit.

Tell me, how many Arabs are incarcerated in PA or HAMAS prisons for crimes against either Israelis or Jews? Know how many Israeli Jews sit in prison today for crimes such as simply suggesting all Arabs should be kept out of our land? Slightly less thasn 500. Bit of a double standard I think. See, those Arab prisoners almost always would not be in Israeli prisons had Arabs policed them.

Something to think about.
Reply

rachamim
08-30-2007, 06:09 PM
Well Wilbur, I hope you are incorrect but life has taught me to expect otherwise. All I can do is try.
Reply

جوري
08-30-2007, 06:12 PM
welcome aboard Rach.

A Crash Course in the Real Facts

Israel's supporters in this country have been flooding the Internet with what they call A Crash Course in the Real Facts. It consists of 20 points, all misleading in the way they are written. A point by point rebuttal follows...

NATIONHOOD AND JERUSALEM

1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
The use of the word “nation” is ambiguous unless it is defined. It is confusing and misleading to use a modern notion and apply it to what happened in 1312 BC. This is how Black’s Law Dictionary defines the word "nation":

“a people, or aggregation of men, existing in the form of an organized jural society, usually inhabiting a distinct portion of the earth, speaking the same language, using the same customs, possessing historic continuity, and distinguished from other like groups by their racial origin and characteristics, and generally, but not necessarily, living under the same government and sovereignty.”
According to this definition Israel became a nation once it became an independent kingdom in 1011 BC (King David 1011-971 BC; and King Solomon 971-931 BC). In 931 BC, the kingdom was divided in two: Israel in the north, (capital Samaria) from 931 to 722 BC; and Judah in the south (capital Jerusalem) from 931 to 587 BC.
Samaria fell to Assyria in 722 BC and a large portion of the population was deported. This kingdom lasted for 209 years.
Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 587 BC and the cream of the population was deported. This kingdom lasted for 344 year.
The total number of years during which Israel was a "nation", even if we take into consideration the small Kingdom of Judah is 424 years. Outside this period Israel was more of a religion than a nation.
The Pittsburgh Platform of 1885 was issued by a group of reform rabbis. It stated: “we consider ourselves no longer a nation but a religious community" (see full text of Pittsburg Platform ).
Furthermore, a letter dated April 20, 1964, from Assistant Secretary of State Phillips Talbot to Rabbi Elmer Berger stated: the State Department "does not recognize a legal-political relationship based upon religious identification of American citizens ... it should be clear that the Department of State does not regard the Jewish people concept as a concept of international law" (see full text of the letter ).
Israel ceased to be a nation in 587 BC. It became a nation again in AD 1948. According to the definition given in Black’s Law Dictionary Jews who are not Israelis do not belong to the Israeli nation, they belong the Jewish faith like their coreligionists in Israel.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the Modern State of Israel.
First, there are no Arab refugees in Israel, unless the writer has already annexed the Occupied Territories, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon to Israel.
The problem of the Palestinian refugees, that the writer calls “Arab” refugees to confuse the reader and avoid using the word Palestinian, started from the moment Israel was established in 1948, since some 700,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes and their homeland and were not allowed to return. There is even a UN resolution that deal with the Palestinian refugees. It is General Assembly resolution 194 of 11 December 1948. The resolution deals explicitly, among other things, with the return of the Palestinian refugees to their homes.
Whether the "Arab" refugees began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967 or not is irrelevant. The fact is that there is today a universal aknowledgment that there is a Palestinian people, even Israel acknowledges this fact. To deny it won't solve the problem of Israel.


3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
What is said in No. 1 above is relevant here. I detect a contradiction between what is said in 1 above and what is being said here. How can Israel be considered a nation in 1312 BC (see No. 1 above) when the "Jewish conquest" of the land of Canaan occurred later in 1272 BC?
There can be no nation without “inhabiting a distinct portion of the earth,” according to the definition. The continuous presence in the land, if we accept it for the sake of argument, was a presence of the Jews as individuals not as a nation. Following the first revolt, the Romans destroyed the Temple in AD 70. After the second revolt (AD 132-135), the Jews were either killed or sold into slavery and dispersed in the Roman Empire. Emperor Hadrian built a temple in honor of Jupiter on the site of the Jewish temple and issued a decree that prohibited under penalty of death the presence of the Jews in Jerusalem. The prohibition was lifted after the Muslim Arab conquest.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.
In 638, not 635, Jerusalem and Palestine, were conquered by the Muslim Arabs. The Muslim rule lasted from 638 to 1099, from 1187 to 1229 and from 1239 to 1917 which is the year Jerusalem fell to General Allenby. In the interim periods, that is from 1099 to 1187 and from 1229 to 1239 the Crusaders established the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. The total number of years Muslims ruled Jerusalem and Palestine is 1,181 years not 22. The writer was off the mark by just 1,159 years. It should be mentioned that before the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after World War One, there was only one dominion, Muslim dominion. Speaking of Arab dominion is misleading.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
Jerusalem was a Jewish capital for no more than 424 years (see No. 1 above). In fact, Jerusalem was a meaningful capital only when the kingdom established by David was unified, that is from 1011 BC to 931 BC, or 80 years. The fact that Jerusalem was never a capital of any Arab or Muslim entity doesn't make it less of an Arab city. San Antonio has never been the capital of the United States. Does this mean that it is a Mexican city?

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
What does this suppose to mean? What is the conclusion that must be drawn from this statement? How about counting the number of times Jerusalem was mentioned in the New Testament?

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
The answer given in 6 above is relevant here. Again, what about Jesus? In their profession of faith, Christians say at every mass: “for our sake he (Jesus Christ) was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered, died and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures." These events didn't happen in Paris or New York but in Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
Another incongruous statement. What are we supposed to make of it? The issue is not a religious one, as the author is trying to establish from points 5 to 8 . It is an issue of self-determination of a disenfranchised indigenous people. Also, the writer is presenting the issue as if it is an issue between the Jews and the Muslims ignoring the fact that the Arab Christians in the Middle East outnumber the Jews of Israel and the billion Christians in the world outnumber the 14 million Jews. The fact also is that Christianity has more holy sites in Jerusalem than Judaism and Islam combined. The Church of the Holy Sepulcher, the holiest place in Christianity, is in Jerusalem. If the issue is a religious one, then the Christians' claim is stronger than that of the Jews or the Muslims.


ARAB AND JEWISH REFUGEES

9. In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
Simha Flapan in his book, The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, refers to the terrorists methods used by the Haganah, Irgun and LEHI to force the Palestinians out of their homeland. Flapan estimated that “84 percent (of the Palestinians) left in direct response to Israeli actions.” The Irish journalist, Erskine Childers, examined the American and the British radio-monitoring records for all 1948. In his article "The Other Exodus" that appeared in the (London) Spectator of May 12, 1961, he wrote the following: "There was not a single order, or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." (see the full text ).

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.
The Jews were forced to flee the Arab countries not because of Arab brutality but because of Jewish brutality. Akiva Orr in his book Israel: Politics, Myths and Identity Crises wrote the following: “in 1948 Jews were not expelled from countries like Iraq, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya, but induced to leave by Zionist emissaries from Israel who often used dirty tricks like throwing bombs into synagogues to create the impression of anti-Jewish persecution to stampede the Jews to Israel.” Once in Israel, some of the Iraqi Jews have even sued the Israeli government for damages. Also, Wilbur Crane Evenlan, a former senior officer in the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) wrote in his 1980 book Ropes of Sand: America's Failure in the Middle East:

"In attempts to portray the Iraqis as ani-American and to terrorize the Jews, the Zionists planted bombs in the U.S. Information Service library and in synagogues. Soon leaflets began to appear urging Jews to flee to Israel. ... Although the Iraqi police later provided our embassy with evidence to show that the synagogue and library bombings as well as the anti-Jewish and anti-American leaflet campaings had been the work of an underground Zionist organization, most of the world believed reports that Arab terrorism had motivated the flight of the Iraqi Jews whom the Zionists had "rescued" really just in order to increase Israel's Jewish population." (pp. 48-49)
For a first-hand account by an eyewitness, read Naeim Giladi's testimony in The Link of April-May 1998, published by the Americans for Middle East Understanding, Inc. Read The Jews of Iraq .
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.
Again the Palestinian refugees, (not Arab refugees) who left Israel in 1948 did not leave Palestine voluntarily but were driven out by the Jewish terrorist organizations (see 9 above). On the other hand, the Jewish “refugees” left voluntarily or induced to leave from their Arab homelands (see No. 10 above).

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.
Should we show our appreciation to the writer for his concern about the Palestinian refugees who were “INTENTIONALY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands?” The writer is lamenting the fact that the Palestinians are “the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples’ lands.” Well, their land is Palestine. I am all for their return to their land. The writer wants the Palestinian refugees to be absorbed in the Arab lands. This is exactly how criminals think. They want to remove any trace of the crime they have committed; then they can delude themselves that they have a clear conscience.


THE ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICT

13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
If the writer knew how to count he would have found out that there are 20 Arab states not 8. Whether there are 20 or 70 Arab states, Palestinians are entitled to live in their homeland. As far as the "five wars" intitiated by the Arabs: The first war was the 1948 war and was triggered by the establishment of Israel. The 1956 war was started by Israel with the help of France and Great Britain. The 1967 war was started by Israel. The 1973 war was launched by Egypt and Syria to liberate their occupied territories, not more. The 1982 war against Lebanon was started by Israel.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.
The PLO Charter has been amended and all clauses calling for Israel’s destruction were cancelled. On April 24, 1996, the Palestine National Council voted 504 to 54 to cancel those clauses. Contrary to what is stated, Israel has NOT given the Palestinians most of the West Bank. The West Bank was divided into three zones: Area A fully controlled by the Palestinian Authority consists of 12%; Area B jointly controlled by Israel (security control) and the Palestinian Authority (civilian control) consists of 26.8%; and Area C totally controlled by Israel consists of 61.2%. Who then controls most of the West Bank? (see map )

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
Under Jordanian rule Israel, the Jewish state, was officially at war with Jordan. Under the Israeli rule, Muslim and Christian Palestinians from the occupied territories are today denied access to places of worship. Those Muslims and Christians who have access to places of worship are Israeli citizens. Desecration of holy sites is done by fanatics. There is no shortage of them among Muslims, Christians and Jews.


THE U.N. RECORD ON ISRAEL AND THE ARABS

16. Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
That is because Israel was at fault 97 times.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
That is because Israel was at fault 429 times.

18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
Why is it that Israel did not complain to the U.N.?

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
The U.N. is not a super government. Member states must take the initiative to complain or ask for a Security Council meeting to take up their complaints.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.
See answer given in No. 19.



These are incredible times. We have to ask what our role should be. What will we tell our grandchildren we did when there was a turning point in Jewish destiny, an opportunity to make a difference?
These are indeed incredible times. We should tell our grandchildren the truth.

For those of you who were kind and interested enough to read, the preceding, let me add two more items:

a) Israel is the ONLY MEMBER OF THE UN THAT IS NOT PERMITTED MEMBERSHIP ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL
For Israel to be a member of the Security Council it has to belong to one of the five following groups: Asian states, African states, Latin American and the Caribbean states, Eastern European states, and Western Europe and other states. If no one group wants to accept Israel as a member then there must be something wrong with Israel.




written by a U.N diplomat who is neither Jewish nor Muslim

http://www.users.cloud9.net/~recross...tch/Facts.html
Reply

Zman
08-30-2007, 06:14 PM
:sl:

The arguments are getting to be personal. Address only the topic, not the member.
No disrespect intended, bro. But your above statement has been rendered meaningless by certain Islamophobes. Since this has Just become a routine warning with no bite, by them.

As for me, Just so you and other mods are aware of my intentions, if I am attacked, disrespected or ridiculed, etc, I swear by Allah, I will retaliate.

As you and others have observed, I never initiated personal attacks. But, I do respond.

I reserve the right to defend myself, and no one can deny me that...
Reply

جوري
08-30-2007, 06:15 PM
...
No justice in Israeli peace plan

presented at Camp David by Ehud Barak





It has been repeatedly said, as Dean Ungar put it in his Aug. 16 letter, that “the Palestinians rejected the most sweeping peace proposal ever offered by an Israeli government.”

Israel and its supporters should understand that the peace proposal whether it was the most sweeping or not is not the issue. The issue is that of justice. The issue is that Israel should comply with UN resolutions. But this is the last thing Israel wants. “Justice” never crossed Barak’s mind in Camp David. “Justice” is never mentioned in his Op-Ed piece in the New York Times (July 30, 2001). As for complying with UN resolutions, Barak wrote that his offer “would have satisfied UN Security Council Resolution 242 and 338 as interpreted by the international community.” In his mind, the international community is probably made up of columnits like George Will, Cal Thomas or Charles Krauthammer.

Instead of just referring to this “offer” and characterizing it as “generous” or “unprecedented,” as some other apologists of Israel put it, it would have been more fitting that they tell us what this offer consisted of. But this is something they dare not do because it would expose its true nature: another form of occupation. Ed Krauss’s letter of Aug. 18 is a case in point.

First of all, this “most sweeping peace proposal” was never presented in writing, let alone accompanied with any maps. It was orally conveyed, which is a strange way of conducting serious negotiations.

Second, this “generous” offer consisted of dividing the West Bank into three separate cantons surrounded by Israel. So not only would the Palestinians have to cross Israel to go from the West Bank to Gaza, but also to go from one canton to another within the West Bank. Such an arrangement would have made the future Palestinian state less viable than the Bantustans created by the South African apartheid government. See map drawn up according to information from the Palestinian delegation. See map drawn up according to information from the Israeli delegation.

Third, according to this “unprecedented” offer, Israel would annex 9 percent of the West Bank in exchange of 1 percent of its own territory. In addition, it would control 10 percent of the West Bank in the form of a “long-term lease.” This area would mainly be located along the Jordan River, which meant that Israel would also control Palestine’s international borders. Furthermore, Israel “offered” to control the air space and the water resources of the new Palestinian state.

On the sensitive issue of the refugees, the proposal spoke only of a “satisfactory solution.” On East Jerusalem, the proposal allowed Palestinian sovereignty on isolated Palestinian neighborhoods, which meant that these neighborhoods would not only be separated from each other but also from the Palestinian state. As for the Haram al-Sharif, the Palestinians would only have custody over it.

By what measure can these proposals be considered fair? As Robert Malley, member of the American team in the Camp David summit, put it in his Op-Ed piece in the New York Times (July 8, 2001), “the measure of Israel’s concessions ought not be how far it has moved from its own starting point, but how far it has moved toward a fair solution.” Given the above, these proposals are anything but fair. They perpetuate the occupation, albeit under another form, they do not allow the establishment of a viable Palestinian state and they sow the seeds of another conflict.

Another point that is often made is that the Palestinians didn’t make any concessions. This is not true. The Palestinian made the ultimate compromise, which is to recognize Israeli sovereignty over 78 percent of historic Palestine. What the Israelis wanted them to do is to compromise the compromise, to compromise the remaining 22 percent. What the Palestinians could not have done was to compromise their fundamental rights and the establishment of a viable state.

Moreover, the Palestinians accepted that Israel annex parts of West Bank territories to accommodate the settlements in exchange of an equivalent amount of Israeli land. They accepted that Israel exercise sovereignty over Jerusalem’s Jewish quarter and the Wailing Wall. They accepted that refugees exercise their right of return in a way that would not affect Israel’s demographic and security interests. Barak, however, declared that Israel bore no responsibility for the refugee problem and its solution.

It is utterly wrong, misleading and unseemly to suggest that the Palestinians at Camp David kept saying “no” or did not present any concession. It is up to the Israelis, the party that holds all the cards, to decide whether they want a genuine peace based on justice or an indefinite conflict.

August 30, 2001
Reply

ahsan28
08-30-2007, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rachamim
Ahsan: Perhpas if you had ever truly asked a Jew about their faith.
I think I never even used the word "JEW" in my posts. There is a marked difference bwn a Jew and a zioinst. Hope U understand that.
Reply

ahsan28
08-30-2007, 07:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rachamim
You speak of unsubstaniated reports of torture .


Humiliation and Child Abuse at Israeli Checkpoints
Strip-Searching Children


By ALISON WEIR


Israeli officials have been regularly strip-searching children for decades, some of them American citizens.

While organizations that focus on Israel-Palestine have long been aware that Israeli border officials regularly strip search men and women, If Americans Knew appears to be the first organization that has specifically investigated the policy of strip searching women. Israeli officials have also been strip searching young girls as young as seven and below.

According to interviews with women in the United States, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, Israeli border officials periodically force Christian and Muslim females of all ages to remove their clothing and submit to searches. In some cases the children are then "felt" by Israeli officials.
Sometimes mothers and children are strip-searched together, at other times little girls are taken from their parents and strip-searched alone. Women are required to remove sanitary napkins, sometimes with small daughters at their side. Sometimes women are strip searched in the presence of their young sons.

All report deep feelings of humiliation. Many describe weeping at the degradation they felt.

The Israeli policy appears to target only Christian and Muslim children. There are no reports of Jewish children being strip-searched.

Israeli practices vary and seem to be applied randomly, from elderly women to small children. In some instances women are taken into a room alone and are left sitting naked for hours. At other times they are strip-searched in groups, their clothes thrown in a pile. When they are finally allowed to get dressed, they describe having to rummage through the heap of clothing, naked and barefoot, to find their own garments.



By ALISON WEIR

http://www.counterpunch.org/weir03152007.html



We have nothing to lose except everything.



We can easily ignore their suffering, cut them from their food, water, electricity, and medicine, confiscate their land, demolish their crops and deny them egress -- suffocate them, our voices stilled. Racism does not allow us to see Arabs as we see ourselves; that is why we rage when they do not fail from weakness but instead we find ourselves failing from strength. Yet, in our view it is we who are the only victims, vulnerable and scarred. All we have is the unnaturalness of our condition.

As an unconscious people, we have perhaps reached our nadir with many among us now calling for a redefinition of our ethics-the core of who we are -- to incorporate the need to kill women and children if Jewish security required it. "New realities do indeed require new responses," says the Rabbinical Council of America. Now, for us, violence is creation and peace is destruction.

Can we ever turn away from our power to destroy?


Sara Roy is Senior Research Scholar, Center for Middle Eastern Studie, Harvard University


http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti....mp;ItemID=125





Israel Doesn't Want Peace



The moment of truth has arrived, and it has to be said: Israel does not want peace. The arsenal of excuses has run out, and the chorus of Israeli rejection already rings hollow. Until recently, it was still possible to accept the Israeli refrain that "there is no partner" for peace and that "the time isn't right" to deal with our enemies. Today, the new reality before our eyes leaves no room for doubt and the tired refrain that "Israel supports peace" has been left shattered.

By Gideon Levy


HAARETZ ( Israel daily)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/846420.html




Among the Palestinian prisoners there are prisoners who have come down with serious illnesses, and the vengeful Israeli system is refusing to release them. Family members of most of the prisoners have not been allowed to visit them for long periods. All of them are discriminated against in their conditions of imprisonment, as compared with the Jewish prisoners.


By Amira Hass

HAARETZ (Israel Daily)


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/847289.html





UK reporters union to boycott Israel


Britain's National Union of Journalists denounced Israel on Friday for its "military adventures" in Gaza and Lebanon, called on the government to impose sanctions and urged a boycott of Israeli goods.

By a vote of 66 to 54, the annual delegate's meeting of Britain's largest trade union for journalists called for "a boycott of Israeli goods similar to those boycotts in the struggles against apartheid South Africa led by trade unions, and [for] the [Trades Union Congress] to demand sanctions be imposed on Israel by the British government."


Jerusalem Post (Israel daily)


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull




No life on the other side



In the last month alone, 546 roadblocks were counted, in addition to various procedures, magnetic cards, enclaves that non-Jews are prohibited from accessing and roads that only settlers are allowed to use - conditions that generate a frustrating uncertainty for the Palestinians.

The report reveals that, despite its commitment, Israel is continuing to make Palestinian movement difficult, is not prepared to open a passageway - no matter how well-secured - between the West Bank and Gaza, and in effect is blocking Palestinians from accessing some 50 percent of the West Bank. This canonization of the West Bank destroys the Palestinian economy's chance of recovering from its crisis.


HAARETZ (ISRAEL DAILY)


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/857770.html




The Arabs will never forgive us




The Palestinians will never forgive us. Not only those who are alive today, but their children will despise us until their dying day, and theirs and theirs. They will revile us for having occupied them, exploited them, shelled them, and bombed them, and for having robbed them of their dignity and their land.



HAARETZ(ISRAEL DAILY)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/858456.html
Reply

ahsan28
08-31-2007, 05:36 AM
The birthday party that captured Israel's heart


Maria Amin, a chubby-faced Palestinian girl with gleaming brown eyes, celebrated her birthday yesterday like any pampered six year old. But Maria was no ordinary birthday girl. She came to the party in a wheelchair, which she navigates with her chin against a joystick. She was paralysed from the neck down in May last year when the car she was in was caught in an Israeli missile strike. Her mother, grandmother and older brother were killed.

She celebrated her birthday party in the Israeli Alyn hospital and rehabilitation centre for handicapped children, where she is hooked to the respirator she will need for the rest of her life.

Back in Gaza, the undeclared war goes on. Children are still paying a price. An Israeli shell killed two Palestinian boys and a girl near Beit Hanoun on Wednesday.


By Eric Silver in Jerusalem
Published: 31 August 2007


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle2914415.ece
Reply

rachamim
08-31-2007, 06:55 AM
Ahsan: first, you have used the word Jew, although I can only say that youused it once as i have barely looked into your posting. You used it when describing true Jews as opposed to Zionists, and you referenced it when discussing how Jews, in your words see non_Jews, as you termed them "gentiles", as inferior. I politely ask you to specifically adress my comments in regards to your incorrect ASSMUPTION that Jews see themselves as superior for attaching the term "Chosen People" to themselves. Thank you ina dvance.

As both a Jew and a Zionist I fully understand the difference between Zionist and a Jew. Do you? For excample, the religious Jews you featured in your blurb about anti-Zionist Jews are in fact ZIONISTS. Modern Zionism is a distinct ideology that is separate from true Zionism. ALL religious Jews fully believe that Israel, and Gaza, and the "WB" for that matter ARE their homeland.

The differecne lies in timing. The Jews you chose to partly focus on are the Netueri Karta (Guardians of the City in Aramaic) and they believe that our homeland should not have been REestablished until the Messianic Advent. Interestingly, they are the closest any religiouws Jewish organised group comes to hating non-Jews as their strange belief dictates that any non-Jews not consumed in Judgement will then ebcome our slaves...Go figure...I find it funny that you lionise a group that waits to enslave you.

Amborisa: I liked your post but it is factually incorrect. We have had a continuous presence there for at least 4500 years according to archaeological science and have held dominion for more than 2000 years. the other dates on dominion refer to the monarchies, not tribal superiority in numbers and strength, as in demanding and receiving tribute,etc. We existed for many centuries with tribal chiefs holding sway, as in Judges, but the monarchy's lifespan was altogether brief in comparison.

As for Arab dominion, they have NEVER had an organic nation there, nor govt. They did rule it for 22 years (which to your credit you listed) as PART of the Khalifa beginning under Omar, but it was a backwater ill tended province, despite Omar having made Jerusalem the 3rd holiest Islamic site.

As for Jewish refugees fleeing Arab violence, etc. My own clan, Dwek (humla last centred in Aleppo,Syria) has been forced to flee in face of direct threat of extermination (my own paternal grandfather was annihilated) 3 times since 1830 CE/AD. Twice in what is now Israel/"WB," and once from Damascus. This does not incluse the fleeing in face of threats from Israel's REestablishment.
Reply

rachamim
08-31-2007, 07:15 AM
Amborisa: Re Barak's stand on UN Resolutions. almost all anti-Israeli Resolutions are authored by Arab states who not only for the most part officialy exist in a perpetual legal state of delcared war with Israel, but have to this day refused to reocgnise not only the fundamental Reo****ioon recognising Israel's Right to Exist, but have ignored its existence part and parcel.

If, you make a complain against me, for any reason, but have refused to even abide my the same system of legal declerations recognising my very existence, why would I EVER even consider even listening to your complaint, let alone obeying it!?!?

The Resolutions are not only silly for the most part, a great many directly threaten Israel's existence.

UN Resolutions are not legally bindable UNLESS they are Security Council authored and ratified. Even then they depend on large part to interpretation. Israel has no reason whatsoever to abide by any, when the fundamental one stating Israel exists is blatantly ignored. On Bantustans,etc..."Palestine" was NEVER,EVER enviosned as a contigous state. For that matter, neither was Israel. They were to be linked to each others confederated areas by one or all of several means. Hiways, covered hiways, tunnels, etc. all present completely viable manners.


Israel was able to create contigious linear delineations (as opposed to borders since borders cannot even be discussed in a roundabout way until Israel has a true and sicnere partner for neogtiations), through attrition in face of Arab aggression. Arabs attacked in 47-49, 53, 67 (although Israel acted proactively in respnse to illegal Egyptian manipulations of the UN Sinai contigents and Syrian and Jordanain tandem mobilisations), 73, and then throughout the mid to late 70s in War of Attrition,etc. These conflicts all ended with Israel victorious and so contigous lines became reality.

Arabs of course do not have many options in this regard since they lack statehood in "Palestine" due to their own trerrible decison making and aggression.

The continued usage of terms like "Apartheid" and "Bantustan" is not only incorrect in all manners, but bordering on criminal in the case of libelous nonsense. Israel has no racist policies whatsoever and has never engaged in any form of segreagtion. As for racial segregation, Jews and Arabs are not only of the same race, but the same and exact racial subgrouping! BOTH are Semites!
Reply

rachamim
08-31-2007, 07:23 AM
Ahsan: "Israelis strip search children." ALL nations do, so what? Is it that Israel has no reason to do so? Just yesterday a 14 year old tried to blow themself up and kill inncoent Israelis so that the policy has proven effectiveness. Funny you bring this up only hours after that 14 year old tried to do this.

In fact, the PA AND HAMAS do far worse but that is another story I suppose.

To suggest Israelis sexually molest children in official capacity is just criminal. I do not want to engage in ad home behavoir with you or any other person here. My goal is honest and fortright discourse but is is difficult when you engage in histronics. Please evaluate yourself and your comments.

"Prisoners of Israel." Funny again that even you admitted that family members are allowed visitation. More telling is the fact that PA and HAMAS prisoners are not even allowed that, not to mention International RC monitoring which Israel of course allows. Of course, had PA and HAMAS even offered cursory policing, we would not need tro incarcerate a single Arab. Sadly, to date, NOT ONE SINGLE ARAB has EVER been incarcerated by either PA or HAMAS fro crimes against either Israelis OR Jews so that we need to spend time and effort on lociking them up.

"UK Reporters move for boycott."Indeed they are, as they do so via computers and cell phones, both of which exist only because we invented both technologies. Processors? Cellphones? Digicams? All our technology so if one wants a boycott, they better cxall for it via sign language or smoke signals. Such hypocrisy...
Reply

rachamim
08-31-2007, 07:31 AM
Ahsan: "No life on the other side..." Indeed, I will not even mention why roadblocks are neccessary, but simply remind you and others that both the PA and HAMAS individually operate many more than we do, and much less efficiently. On average it takes 20 minutes to ransit a major border corssing. It takes 1.45 hours to do so via HAMAS or PA checkpoints.

Againt hough, should Arabs cease blowing themselves up while killing inncoent Israelis, our checkpoints would cease barring major borderpoints., Sadly, Arab ones will not.

"Arabs will never forgive us." Who cares? I only care about peaceful and secure coesitence. What they feel beyond that is entirely their own affair. I can forgive them for murdering my famioliy members and ming me spend 24 years in uniform from 16 to 40, I imagine they too can get over injustices that they themselves are primarily responsible for.

"Birthday party." What you neglected to ad though is just why her auto was targetted. The little thing about daddy murdering 44 Israelis, and then hiding behind his women and children. Missiles are not precise by any means but when Arabs refuse to police themselves, we have no choice but to prevent as much bloodshed as possible.

To foreigners this might seem like an oxymoron considering the little girl's horrible misfortune but then one mkust realise 2 things. Our responsibility is to protect OUR OWN people, and the numbers bear out the methods used. How many Arabs died in this op? How many Israelis had their lives saved by carrying out this op? While one can never definatively offer how many were saved, one can use sense in that he had killed dozens already, and had remained active in his cell. thus, ends DO sadly justify means.

AGAIN THOUGH, should Arabs police themselves, or even make a half hearted effort, such ops would no longer need to take place...
Reply

ahsan28
08-31-2007, 10:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rachamim
Ahsan: first, you have used the word Jew, although I can only say that you used it once as i have barely looked into your posting. You used it when describing true Jews as opposed to Zionists, and you referenced it when discussing how Jews, in your words see non_Jews, as you termed them "gentiles", as inferior. I politely ask you to specifically adress my comments in regards to your incorrect ASSMUPTION that Jews see themselves as superior for attaching the term "Chosen People" to themselves. Thank you ina dvance.
.


Merkaz Ha’rav, a Talmudic College in West Jerusalem, that is largely considered to be the theological and ideological nerve center of religious-messianic Zionism.

The College teaches and promotes the teachings of Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, the first Chief Rabbi of the immigrant Jewish community in Palestine who is viewed as the religious and spiritual godfather and mentor of the settler movement, known as Gush Emunim (the bloc of faithful.”

According to Israeli writer Yair Sheleg Rabbi Kook wrote that “the difference between the Jewish soul and the souls of all non-Jews, no matter what their rank and level of understanding , is bigger and deeper than the difference between the human soul and the animal soul.” (Moses and the Prophets never taught this outrageous invention which is totally incompatible with the Abrahamic traditions).


A few years ago, Haim Yavin, a prominent TV personality in Israel, did a documentary on Jewish settlers in the West Bank and how they viewed their Arab neighbors.

The documentary featured a Jewish settler woman who told Yavin that “if we Jews get together, we will make the Palestinians our slaves…and “Muhammed” will make coffee for both of us.”

The Jewish terrorist who in 1994 murdered 29 Palestinian civilians while praying at the Ibrahimi Mosque in downtown Hebron, and the so-called hilltop youths) go one step further and believe that Palestinians belong to one and only place: The Ovens.




http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/1892
Reply

Zman
08-31-2007, 12:23 PM
:sl:
West Bank Policy Not Aiding Peace, Says UN

By Sharmila Devi in Jerusalem
Published: August 30 2007 19:48
Last updated: August 30 2007 19:48
The Financial Times

Israeli infrastructure that divides the West Bank and confines 2.5m Palestinians to enclaves does not provide a basis for a two-state solution to the conflict, said a United Nations report on Thursday.

...Mr Williams also pointed to the Jewish settlements in his final briefing to the UN Security Council on Wednesday...“Settlement activity undermines hope for a contiguous Palestinian state,” he said.

Almost 40 per cent of the West Bank is off-limits to Palestinians because of Israeli settlements, military infrastructure and a system of roads designed to ease access for Jewish settlers (see map above), justified by Israel as protection from terrorism.

The report points out: “These measures are also intimately linked to maintaining settler access and their quality of life.”

Israel took the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip in 1967.

Settlements are deemed illegal under international law, but about 450,000 Jewish settlers now live in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. ...

Source:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/90c39d62-5...0779fd2ac.html
Reply

ahsan28
08-31-2007, 01:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rachamim
Ahsan: "Israelis strip search children." ALL nations do, so what? .
Please don't involve the remaining world. Security checking systems aren't meant to humiliate humans, especially women n the kids.
Reply

ahsan28
08-31-2007, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rachamim
in your words see non_Jews, as you termed them "gentiles", as inferior. I politely ask you to specifically adress my comments in regards to your incorrect ASSMUPTION that Jews see themselves as superior for attaching the term "Chosen People" to themselves.


" it would naturally be quite unsafe to trust a Gentile as a witness, either in a criminal case or in a civil suit. He could not be depended upon to keep his promise or word of honor like a Jew (Bek. 13b). The Talmud comments on the untruthfulness of Gentiles ("a band of strange children whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand [in raising it to take an oath] is a right hand of falsehood".



http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...h=gentiles#538
Reply

rachamim
08-31-2007, 02:10 PM
Ahsan: "Rav Kook." I studied in a Rav Kook Yeshiva and I studied under Rav Kook's son. You are wrong 100 percent and have defamed a kind hearted man. You should , at the very least, try to verifiy your quotes independantly of your propagandic sites.

Your claim that Kook Elder said that is laughable. It shows both a lack of research and BASICunderstanding of the Jewish religion. No religious Jew would eVER be able to say such a thing ebcause one of the most basic things in our religion is the belief that all people are imbued with the Spark of Creation. This is the Essence of G-D so that to defame any person, Jew or otherwise, is a grave sin akin to idlo worship.

AGAIN, if you wish to learn about our religion, you need to avoid propaganda and concentrate oin the true faith.

As for the alleged documentary, so what? IF it happened, what does it matter? An individual Jew supposedly said horrible things? AND you need to learn the difference between individuals and a culture as a whole.To defame an entire nation over the words of one person, even if it were the PM, is ridiculous.

You say the words are not represtnative of the true Jewish faith (sic), then why do you bother to post them?

"Jew who murdered people at a mosque in Hebron..." His name was Dr. Baruch Goldstein and he was a manic depressive and a vile human for his actions.

He as NOT a "Hilltop Youth." Hilltop Youth are young Kahanists and number less than 200. They are drug abusers and anti-social. Still, not a single one has ever once committed an act of terror against anyone, unlike HAMAS, PIJ, and a number of other groups and their members.

"Hilltop Youth believe Arabs belong in ovens." Nope. Terrible for you to even say such a thing. No Jew, Kahanist or otherwise has ever advocated such a thing. See, in Israel we have the strongest Hate Crime law in the world. To even suggest a forced transfer of Arabs in words or writing gets you 10 years. Wonder how many years those people on Gaza's al Akhsa TV are getting from "Palestinian" courts for advocating genocide? How many years will those "Palestinians" who tried to lynch the IDF reservist 2 days ago in Ramallah will get?

How many did the group of "Palestinians" who in the 90s , on live International TV, DID lynch after physically tearing the limbs from 2 other IDF reservistsin Ramallah got? They did this in a police stattion and were never even arrested!

I could offer hundreds, literally, examples of this violence and hatred and all you can do is offer fake rantings. Please, provide facts.

Hilltop Youth said that? Post a BONAFIDE link.

Zman: "UN Report by Williams." Israel does NOT violate any International Law with regard to ANYTHING. If it did, you would see it at least CHARGED at Hague or Brussels. International Law is hgihly interprative . Of course, the PA and HAMAS violate it everyday, with no need for interpretation. Allowance of existing terrorist entities is a direct and clear violation. Any thtoughts?

As for William's thoughts on contigious borders...He needs to first concentrate on getting the "Palestinians" to accept abidance and compliance with the Resolution for Ratification and Resolution for Partition. THEN, maybe he can devote needed time to other issues.

As to the opinion that non-contigous borders will not allow for a viable state, fuuny since the UN is the one that recommdned the lack of such borders!

While the UN under Ban is making progress on these issues, Williamns and the Human Rights section show us that the UN has alot of growing up to do.
Reply

rachamim
08-31-2007, 02:15 PM
Ahsan: "Checkpoints are not meant to humiliate women and children." Actually, they are not meant to humiliate anyone.

Do the Checkpoints serve a purpose. I told you that yesterday a 14 year old was caught with a bomb at one. Are they then meant to humiliate or to catch bmombers? Please answer.

Then, please answer why PA and HAMAS Checkpoints also strip search their own people? Are they too trying to humiliate "Palestinians?" Please answer.
Reply

Basirah
08-31-2007, 05:19 PM
Israel's crimes are very bad against palestinians in many cases, but Palestinian crimes ared equaly as bad. I won't let one side be taken down while another side remains guilty yet the hypocrites refuse to be critical of them as well.

___



What happened to Jewish Holy Sites and places of worship in lands controlled by the Arabs?

On May 28, 1948 the Arab Legion completed the capture of the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem, the site of numerous ancient synagogues and the Western Wall of the Temple, destroyed by the Romans in the year 70 AD. These were and remain the holiest sites in the Jewish religion.

After the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem was captured, the destruction, desecration and systematic looting of Jewish sites began and continued. 57 ancient synagogues (the oldest dated to the 13th century), libraries and centers of religious study were ransacked and 12 were totally and deliberately destroyed. Those that remained standing were defaced, used for housing of both people and animals. The city's foremost Jewish shrine, the Western Wall, became a slum. Appeals were made to the United Nations and in the international community to declare the Old City to be an 'open city' and stop this destruction, but there was no response. This condition continued until Jordan lost control of Jerusalem in June 1967.

On the Mount of Olives, the Jordanian Arabs removed 38,000 tombstones from the ancient cemetery and used them as paving stones for roads and as construction material in Jordanian Army camps, including use as latrines. When the area was recaptured by Israel in 1967, graves were found open with the bones scattered. Parts of the cemetery were converted into parking lots, a filling station, and an asphalt road was built to cut through it. The Intercontinental Hotel was built at the top of the cemetery. Sadar Khalil, appointed by the Jordanian government as the official caretaker of the cemetery, built his home on the grounds using the stones robbed from graves. In 1967, the press published extensive photos documenting that Jewish gravestones were found in Jordanian Army camps, such as El Azariya, as well as in Palestinian walkways, steps, bathrooms, and pavement.

The Hurva Synagogue, attributed to Rabbi Moses Ben Nahman (Ramban), was the main synagogue in Jerusalem in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries (and possibly much earlier), until the Ottomans closed it in 1589 because of Muslim incitement. It was burned by Arabs in 1721 (Hurva = destruction in Hebrew), but again rebuilt by Zionists in the 19th century, becoming the most prominent synagogue on the Jerusalem skyline. For that reason, when it was captured by the Arab Legion during the battle for Old Jerusalem in 1948, they dynamited it to show that they controlled the Jewish Quarter. When the Jews in New Jerusalem saw the Hurva burning, they knew that Jewish life in the Quarter had ended (again).

Access to the Holy Sites
When the 1948 war ended, and negotiations began, the Israeli representatives emphasized regaining access to Jewish Jerusalem. Article VIII of the Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement, signed on April 3, 1949, called for the establishment of a Special Committee:

... composed of two representatives of each Party for the purpose of formulating agreed plans" including "free access to the Holy Places and cultural institutions and use of the cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
Hopes were high that Jews might visit the Western Wall for Passover 1949, but the Jordanians violated the Armistice Agreement. These clauses were never honored. Promises continued to be made, and Glubb Pasha, the British commander of the Arab Legion, pledged that:

Jerusalem's Arab and Jewish populations would be two separate cities with free trade and exchange between each other. The Arabs would be perfectly willing to allow the Jews to have access to their shrines, notably the Wailing Wall, now inside the Arab-held Old City.
The Jordanian "occupation" of the West Bank was very abusive of the rights of Jews and Christians, or any resident of Israel. Jewish and muslim residents of Israel were not permitted to visit their Holy Places in East Jerusalem. Christians, too, were discriminated against. In 1958, Jordanian legislation required all members of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre to adopt Jordanian citizenship. In 1965, Christian institutions were forbidden to acquire any land or rights in or near Jerusalem. In 1966, Christian schools were compelled to close on Fridays instead of Sundays, customs privileges of Christian religious institutions were abolished. Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.

During the Jordanian occupation of Hebron from 1948 to 1967, Jews were not permitted to live in the city, nor -- despite the term of the 1948 Armistice Agreement -- to visit or pray at the Jewish holy sites in the city. Additionally, the Jordanian authorities and local residents undertook a systematic campaign to eliminate any evidence of the Jewish presence in the city. They razed the Jewish Quarter, desecrated the Jewish cemetery and built an animal pen on the ruins of the Avraham Avinu synagogue

Although there were numerous discussions of this issue, and Israeli complaints, the Jordanians refused to honor the agreement, and the UN did not pass any resolutions against this treatment of Jewish religious institutions.

http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_holysites.php
Reply

Basirah
08-31-2007, 05:23 PM
More about war crimes from the other side as well to give an equal point of view.
____

Gaza: Armed Palestinian Groups Commit Grave Crimes

New York, June 13, 2007) – During recent fighting in the Gaza Strip, armed Palestinian groups have committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, in some cases amounting to war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

In internal Palestinian fighting over the last three days, both Fatah and Hamas military forces have summarily executed captives, killed people not involved in hostilities, and engaged in gun battles with one another inside and near Palestinian hospitals. On Saturday, armed Palestinians from Islamic Jihad and the Fatah-affiliated Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade used a vehicle with a “TV” insignia to attack an Israeli military position on the border with Gaza.

“These attacks by both Hamas and Fatah constitute brutal assaults on the most fundamental humanitarian principles,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director for Human Rights Watch. “The murder of civilians not engaged in hostilities and the willful killing of captives are war crimes, pure and simple.”

On Sunday, Hamas military forces captured 28-year-old Muhammad Swairki, a cook for President Mahmoud Abbas’s presidential guard, and executed him by throwing him to his death, with his hands and legs tied, from a 15-story apartment building in Gaza City. Later that night, Fatah military forces shot and captured Muhammad al-Ra’fati, a Hamas supporter and mosque preacher, and threw him from a Gaza City high-rise apartment building. On Monday, Hamas military forces attacked the home in Beit Lahiya of Jamal Abu al-Jadiyan, a senior Fatah official, captured him, and executed him on the street with multiple gunshots. On Tuesday, there were reports of additional killings of individuals not involved in hostilities.

In addition, Fatah and Hamas forces engaged in battles in and around two Gaza Strip hospitals on Monday. After Hamas fighters killed Fatah intelligence officer Yasir Bakar, Fatah gunmen began firing mortars and rocket-propelled grenades at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, drawing Hamas fire from inside the building, killing one Hamas and one Fatah fighter. At a hospital in Beit Hanun, three family members with ties to Fatah, `Id al-Masri and his sons, Farij and Ibrahim, were killed, and others wounded. Hospital officials reported that the three were being treated for injuries sustained earlier. One was reportedly shot at close range.

All parties engaged in armed conflict are subject to customary international humanitarian law, which forbids deliberate harming of civilians and those who are not engaged in armed hostilities at the time, Human Rights Watch said. International humanitarian law also provides special protection to medical personnel and hospitals. Military and civilian hospitals and medical units must be protected and respected in all circumstances.

In the June 9 incident, four armed Palestinians drove a white jeep bearing “TV” insignias to a fence on the Gaza-Israel border and fired at Israeli soldiers. The Israelis returned fire, killing one Palestinian. Spokesmen for Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, an offshoot of Fatah, claimed responsibility for the attack. An Islamic Jihad spokesperson denied that Palestinians had put press markings on the jeep used in the June 9 attack, and accused the Israeli military of doing so after the fact. However, photos taken by the Associated Press as the attack was under way show the letters “TV” written in red on the front of the jeep.

“Using a vehicle with press markings to carry out a military attack is a serious violation of the laws of war, and it also puts journalists at risk,” said Whitson.

Customary international humanitarian law provides that journalists not taking direct part in hostilities in armed conflict zones “shall be considered as civilians.” The deliberate abuse of this protected status in order to breach the confidence of an adversary in an attempt to kill, injure or capture them, would amount to an act of perfidy, a serious violation of international humanitarian law.

The Palestinian Journalists Union on Sunday criticized the use by armed factions of press insignia in a statement: “The use of vehicles that carry ‘Press,’ ‘TV’ or other signs ... exposes journalists’ lives to danger, gives the Israeli occupation a pretext to target and kill journalists and restricts their ability to perform their professional and national duties. … We demand all parties stop using these methods.”

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/06/13/isrlpa16156.htm
Reply

wilberhum
08-31-2007, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Basirah
Israel's crimes are very bad against palestinians in many cases, but Palestinian crimes ared equaly as bad. I won't let one side be taken down while another side remains guilty yet the hypocrites refuse to be critical of them as well.
:thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up
It is always nice to see someone look at both sides of the coin.

IMHO if any of you are looking for "The Good Guys", they left a long time ago.
Reply

ahsan28
08-31-2007, 05:51 PM
[QUOTE=wilberhum;820700
IMHO if any of you are looking for "The Good Guys", they left a long time ago.[/QUOTE]

Where :cry:
Reply

wilberhum
08-31-2007, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ahsan28
Where :cry:
They went into hiding. They don't seam to be anywhere.
:?
Reply

ahsan28
09-02-2007, 04:02 PM
UN: Peace is hampered by West Bank growth


The United Nations has issued a stark warning on the eve of Tony Blair's first full working trip as international Middle East envoy that the steady growth of Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank is undermining the prospects for peace.

The hard-hitting report by some of the UN's top Middle East experts suggests that the break-up of the West Bank into dozens of enclaves because of the settlements – which, along with the roads and military apparatus that serve them, take up almost 40 per cent of the West Bank.

The report points out that the population of the Jewish West Bank settlements – illegal under international law – is growing at a rate of 5.5 per cent annually, three times the rate in Israel itself. Unchecked, it will lead to unsustainable competition, for resources such as water and land, with a Palestinian population that is itself growing at a rate of 2.5 per cent per year.

It says the roads have become "corridors to link settlements to Israel" and "have fragmented the West Bank into a series of enclaves, isolating Palestinian communities from each other." And it warns that while a network of checkpoints, alternative roads, tunnels and bridges bypassing settler-reserved roads provides a "measure of transport contiguity" which may satisfy "short term humanitarian needs", this cannot lead "to a sustainable economy" or "provide the basis for a two-state solution."



By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem
Published: 02 September 2007

Independent. UK


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle2919646.ece
Reply

ahsan28
09-02-2007, 04:26 PM
West Bank Boys Dig a Living in Settler Trash


By STEVEN ERLANGER
Published: September 2, 2007



AD DEIRAT, West Bank, Aug. 30 — As the truck unloads, the children pounce on the garbage like flies. Some swing aloft on the hydraulic pistons that open the back, then drop onto the mound of trash to grab a piece of metal, a crushed can, a soda bottle or a stinking T-shirt.

The boys are part of a loose-knit colony of scavengers, nearly 250 people who scramble over fetid hills of other people’s trash to eke out a living for their families and themselves. Most are younger than 16; some sleep here during the week to maximize the hours they can hunt for goods to sell.


Nytimes----- Must watch the pic by opening the link, please

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/wo...hp&oref=slogin
Reply

Zman
09-02-2007, 05:25 PM
:sl:
Five Children In One Week

By Haaretz Editorial
Last update - 09:32 31/08/2007

The Israeli public reacted to these killings, just like it did to the killing of two other children several days earlier, with near complete apathy.
This indifference is dangerous because it does not encourage greater care in identifying targets.
Israel cannot behave like a terrorist organization that targets civilians, even when the shooting comes in response to an attack.
There is no dispute over the fact that the children were killed near rocket launchers.

However, the people near rocket launchers are usually civilians, and not the operating crews.
The killing of Palestinian children is certainly not contributing to the safety of the children in Sderot, but rather only increases the urge to avenge their deaths and to harm children on the other side.
While there are signs that the atmosphere in the West Bank is changing - the rescue of an IDF officer by Palestinian security forces is an expression of this - but talk of making the daily life of civilians easier by decreasing the number of roadblocks has, for now, proven to be empty words.

Source:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/S...?itemNo=899399
Reply

ahsan28
09-02-2007, 05:37 PM
The Sorrows of Occupation

By GEORGE LONGSTETH
and KAREN LONGSTETH



Our experience in the West Bank this summer gave us a view seldom seen by Americans of Palestinian life under Israeli military occupation. We observed widespread anguish and economic and social deprivation from Israeli actions.

Among the most deleterious Israeli policies is restriction of mobility. About 40 percent of the West Bank is off-limits to Palestinians. There are more than 120 settlements built on confiscated land and separate roads for the 250,000 Israeli settlers. More than 600 vehicle checkpoints and obstacles slow travel in the West Bank, an area slightly smaller than Delaware.

The largely completed wall isolating the West Bank from Israel, often termed a "fence" in Israeli news media, will extend 403 miles, over four times the length of the Berlin Wall.

Disregard for Palestinian property also includes destruction of olive trees, replacing orchards with barren land or rows of stumps, as we observed near Hebron. Many West Bankers who were born in East Jerusalem are restricted from their birthplace, only a few miles away. A West Bank nurse, born in Gaza, has been denied permission from Israel for 10 years to visit his family in Gaza.

Israel controls the water and, per person, Israeli settlers use several times as much as Palestinians who rely on rooftop reservoirs when the Israelis turn off the supply, as we experienced in Ramallah.

Israeli policies in the West Bank seem designed to eliminate Palestinians by making life so difficult for them that they leave. A Palestinian Red Crescent official told us that Israel discourages foreign humanitarian workers from coming to the West Bank because "they don't want the world to see what they are doing."



September 1 / 2, 2007


http://www.counterpunch.org/longstreth09012007.html
Reply

rav
09-02-2007, 06:11 PM
I read this on the water situation, I am not sure if it is completly on topic, but please tell me if it is relevant:

In the years immediately following the 1967 war, water resources for the West Bank improved considerably. The water system in the southern Hebron region, for instance, was expanded. New wells were drilled near Jenin, Nablus and Tulkarm. More than 60 towns in the West Bank were given new water supply systems, or had antiquated ones upgraded by the Israeli administration in the territories.

In the late 1970's and early 1980's, however, the Middle East suffered from one of the worst droughts in modern history. Water in the Jordan River and Sea of Galilee dropped to critical levels. The situation deteriorated further at the beginning of the 1990's and has continued to be a problem in the new millennium.

Under these conditions, the Israeli government restricted the drilling of new wells on the West Bank. It had little choice because the West Bank and Israel share the same water table, and the drawing off of fresh water resources could promote saline water seepage.

Arab farmers on the West Bank are served by approximately 100 springs and 300 wells — many dug decades ago and now overutilized. Restrictions on over-exploitation of shallow wells were meant to prevent seepage or total depletion of saline water. Some wells were dug so that Jewish villages could tap new, deep aquifers never before used. These water pools as a rule do not draw from the shallower Arab sources.

At the end of 1991, a conference was scheduled in Turkey to discuss regional water problems. The meeting was torpedoed by Syria. The Syrians, Jordanians and Palestinians all boycotted the multilateral talks in Moscow in January 1992, which included a working group on water issues.

Following the Oslo agreements, Palestinians were more interested in cooperating on water issues. At the meeting of the multilateral working group in Oman in April 1994, an Israeli proposal to rehabilitate and make more efficient water systems in medium-sized communities (in the West Bank/Gaza, Israel and elsewhere in the region) was endorsed. About the same time, a Palestinian Water Authority was created as called for in the Israeli-Palestinian Declaration of Principles.

In November 1994, the working group met in Greece and the Israelis, Jordanians, and Palestinians agreed to begin discussion on principles or guidelines for cooperation on water issues. Further progress was made on a variety of issues during the 1995 meeting in Amman and the 1996 meeting in Tunisia. The working groups have not met since.

Israel has not cut the amount of water allocated to the Palestinian Authority (PA) and is planning to examine the possibility of increasing it despite the cut in water allocations within Israel and the requirement of supplying considerable amounts of water to Jordan as mandated by the peace treaty.

In contrast to claims by the Palestinian side, Israel did not even determine the amount of water to be supplied to the territories. The amount was specified in negotiations between the two sides, with the Americans participating. By the consent of both parties, the amount of water was increased relative to the situation prior to the Interim Agreement. Similarly, a formula was decided upon for increasing the water allocation gradually over the interim period.

The negotiations also led to agreements defining the number of wells that Israel is obligated to dig, and the number the PA and international bodies are obligated to dig. Cooperation on issues of sewage and environment were also defined. It was further decided that jurisdiction over water would be transferred to the Palestinians in the framework of the transfer of civil powers, and that the water situation would be supervised by joint monitoring teams

Israel has fulfilled all of her obligations under the Interim Agreement. The water quota agreed upon, and more, is being supplied. Jurisdiction over water was transferred completely and on time, and Israel approved the additional digging of wells. Israel and the PA carry out joint patrols to locate cases of water theft and other water-related problems.

The water issue for the Palestinians actually has little to do with Israel. According to the U.S. Agency for International Development, “The West Bank and Gaza suffer from a chronic water shortage, preventing sustained economic growth and negatively impacting the environment and health of Palestinians. The little water available is inefficiently used.” The analysis adds that “Palestinian ground water supplies have increasingly become polluted as a result of inadequate sewage treatment and over-pumping of wells. Untreated sewage is dumped in valleys and the Mediterranean Sea, decreasing the quality of the already inadequate groundwater supply, and polluting the soil, sea, and coastline.”*

*Water Resource Development," USAID West Bank and Gaza - http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/program_water.htm

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...s/mf18.html#5a
Reply

rachamim
09-03-2007, 01:21 PM
Ahsan: "WB Settlement growth..." Give it up. We left Gaza 2 years ago almost to the day as well as 5 major Arab areas of the "WB." We planned to leave the reast within 18 months (minus 4 to 6 percent which would be offset by 4 to 6 percent of our land) but then HAMAS rained on the parade.

Noone in their right mind would suggest we leace with the chaos on hand. Funny though, HAMAS finally had the chance they claimed to have wanted and di dabsolutely nothing with it save ruin it like the 1 billion plus US hothouse industry left in Gaza, intact and totally demolished witrhin 2 weeks of our last soldier leaving.

What is the point about the scanvengers? That ther is poverty there? That is their fault, not ours. We did not make them refuse statehood for 86 years.

"WB Occupatrion." Again, the PA operates far more checkpoints and does sop ineptly. the average wait at an Israeli point is 20 minutes, at a PA point is is close to 2 hours.

"Barrier termd a fence." Well, less than 20 perecent is a wall of any kind so fence is entirely accurate.

"Destruction of olive trees." First, Arabs are usurpers there. They have never had a nation there and are native only to Hejaz in what is now Arabia. Second, any house anywhere in "WB" is built atop the ruins of Jewish houses. thirs, the only trees uprooted are those less than 300 meters from a roadso as to negate a firing line for point of ambush. If folks do not like trees being uprooted all they need do to stop it is have their family members and neighbours stop using them for ambushes.

"Restricted from birthplaces..." Only when they refused to sign obesiance vows after 48.Almost 2 million Israeli-Arabs have complete freedom of movement.

"Israel controls the water." In 67, when we won the "WB" from then Trans-Jordan, the first thing we did after establishing governance there ws to build a working and ample well in EVERY town on the "WB." Yep we controll it because we made it but no Arab or anyone else is denied any basic services.

"Israel turns off supplies..." Um, no we do not, EVER. Sometimes systems break down, part of life.

"Israel does not want the world to see..." EXCEPT that Israel is the only nation in the world who lets foreigners traipse about its warzones! CCTV is everhwere as are Activist groups like ISM and Checkpoint Watch who sit and film Israeli (never Arab of course) checkpoints 24 hours a day.

"Red Crescent." Same orgasnisation that allows HAMAS andf PIJ to use its facilities and vehichles when performing acts of terror. Yeah, I trust their word...
Reply

ahsan28
09-04-2007, 12:00 PM
IOA turns Palestinian prisoners into experiment fields for new medicines


Israeli occupation authority (IOA) is turning Palestinian prisoners into experiment fields for their new drugs in clear and flagrant violation of human rights and international conventions on prisoners.

International laws and conventions, including the Geneva Fourth convention among other covenants, urge countries to deal with prisoners in a humanistic manner, and not to expose them to danger. Israel defied those laws and never abided by them as far as the Palestinian captives are concerned.

The Nazis were the first to use such kind of experiments, especially on POWs, resulting in the death of many of them.

3 Sep 2007

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m35931&hd=&size=1&l=e
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ahsan28
09-04-2007, 12:33 PM
The olive trees of Palestine weep


Universally regarded as the symbol of peace, the olive tree has become the object of violence. For more than forty years, Israel has uprooted over one million olive trees and hundreds of thousands of fruit trees in Palestine with terrible economic and ecological consequences for the Palestinian people. Their willful destruction has so threatened Palestinian culture, heritage and identity that the olive tree has now become the symbol of Palestinian steadfastness because of its own rootedness and ability to survive in a land where water is perennially scarce.

Throughout the centuries, Palestinian farmers have made their living from olive cultivation and olive oil production; 80 percent of cultivated land in the West Bank and Gaza is planted with olive trees. In the West Bank alone, some 100,000 families are dependent on olive sales. Today, the olive harvest provides Palestinian farmers with anywhere between 25 to 50 percent of their annual income, and as the economic crisis deepens, the harvest provides for many their basic means of survival.

On a larger scale, the Israeli military brings in the bulldozers to uproot trees in the way of the "security" wall's route and where they impede the development of infrastructure necessary to service the illegal settlements. Some of these threatened trees are 700 to 1,000 years old and are still producing olives.These precious trees are being replaced by roads, sewerage, electricity, running water and telecommunications networks, Israeli military barracks, training areas, industrial estates and factories leading to massive despoliation of the environment. If Israel has its way, neither the trees nor the Palestinians who have cared for them will survive the barbaric ethnic and environmental cleansing of Palestine.

Such heartbreaking reality has led the Palestinian poet, Mahmoud Darwish, to say, "If the olive trees knew the hands that planted them, their oil would have become tears ..."


by Sonja Karkar

September 04, 2007


http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...7&ItemID=13691
Reply

rachamim
09-04-2007, 05:16 PM
Ahsan: Do you even read your sources? You post a claim that Israel performs medical experiments on Arab prisoners...And...it is entirely based on the words of some non-enitity, a statician who claims Arab prisoners are being neglected medically. Well, how does one perform experiments by neglecting? Either they are neglected or they are being experimented on. Such nonsense. Furthermore, the IRC has full access to EACH and EVERYONE of the priosners, so what is this "statician" basing his nonsense on?

Finally, the Zionist as Nazi shtick is sooo passe. Please do come up with something a bit more titlliating.

Hate to break this to you bit the dove is the international symbol of peace, not the olive tree although a dove with an olive branch is also construed as peaceful per Noach (Noah) and the sign from G-D. What is surely not seen as a sign of peace though is the ancient olive trees of my ancestors being coopted by Arabs who do not want statehood. That is nothing if not significant of hatred and chaos.

QUESTION: DO Arabs sometimes use trees by roadsides as cover to iniate terrorist attacks?

Question: Do ALL armies worldwide uproot any barrier with relation to their outer permiter with regard to operating bases?

If yes to either one, you are out of luck. Not only are we uprooting our own trees but are doing so because trees within 300 meters of roads are used regularly by Arab terrorists. If uprooting trees that do not belong to you bothers you in any way here is how to prevent it from happening in the future: STOP THE VIOLENCE. Quite simple really.

Darwish: "If the olive trees knew the hands that planet them"...were Jewish hands they would keel over and die seeing as how they had been coopted by invaders and usurpers.

QUESTION: Was Jesus an Arab?
Reply

ahsan28
09-04-2007, 06:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rachamim

QUESTION: DO Arabs sometimes use trees by roadsides as cover to iniate terrorist attacks?

Question: Do ALL armies worldwide uproot any barrier with relation to their outer permiter with regard to operating bases?

If yes to either one, you are out of luck. Not only are we uprooting our own trees but are doing so because trees within 300 meters of roads are used regularly by Arab terrorists. If uprooting trees that do not belong to you bothers you in any way here is how to prevent it from happening in the future:


QUESTION: Was Jesus an Arab?

By your logic, you should cut all the trees owned by the Palestinians in one go. Afterall it will give the advantage of improved field of fire and you can take on every innocent palestinian passing by.

I don't find any logic in your explanation. These are the actions based on sheer hatred.

And what Jesus has to do with olive trees? Please don't quote any false reference from your sources that all olive trees were planted by Jesus and Israelis have the right to cut them whenever they feel necessary.
Reply

ahsan28
09-05-2007, 10:44 AM
Palestinians win battle to reroute West Bank barrier


By Donald Macintyre in Gaza
Published: 05 September 2007


Israel's Supreme Court delivered a significant blow to the country's military establishment yesterday by ordering the West Bank separation barrier to be rerouted near a Palestinian village which has been the focus of two-and-a-half years of protests.

A three-judge panel led by Israel's Chief Justice, Dorit Beinish, unanimously rejected the state's defence of the route and ordered the government to come up with an alternative for a mile-long section of the barrier in a "reasonable period of time" to limit the harm to the Palestinian residents of Bili'in.

The residents of Bili'in believe the success of their petition to the court will mean the recovery of around 250 acres of mainly olive orchards which were to have been cut off from the village by the barrier to make way for what they had foreseen as a further planned expansion of the Jewish settlement of Modiin Illit on their land.

In Bili'in jubilant villagers poured out of their homes and schools and headed for the barrier – in this section a fence – and military jeeps gathered as some men brandishing Palestinian flags began to dance chanting: "They demolished the Berlin Wall, we want to demolish the 'Bilin' wall."


Independent. UK


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle2927107.ece
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Zman
09-05-2007, 03:27 PM
:sl:


How To Spin A Military Occupation As "Self-Defense"



Media Tags are no longer supported
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ahsan28
09-05-2007, 08:46 PM
Checkpoint checking


THE ARMY and the authorities will always be able to justify the tight security measures they use to keep the Palestinians at arm's length, and so too will the Israeli public themselves. However, what they won't, or can't see is that it's the daily humiliation and hardship that breeds the next generation of bombers, and guarantees the hatred is passed down from father to son and beyond.

The man who returns home without a day's pay to a hungry and desperate family won't blame anyone but the soldier who didn't switch the light from red to green in time for him to clamber aboard the minibus - and neither will his children. The man with no means of getting his ID card back other than coming cap in hand to a group of tirelessly devoted volunteers from Mahsom Watch won't ever forgive the authorities for the misery they put him and his family through. And the man forced to turn collaborator just to put food on the table for his six kids won't ever forget the cruelty of the occupiers who put him in such an awful predicament.

IF WE don't want terror on our doorstep, we'd do well to treat those over the garden fence with at least a modicum of respect and consideration. If we don't; if we refuse to retreat from our entrenched position of mistrust, mistreatment and misanthropy, then there's no hope for any kind of resolution that doesn't involve more bloodshed for years to come.

Unless the call is heeded now by those with the power to help the Palestinians, a bitter harvest will once more be reaped by the very people the army is meant to protect with their actions.


By SETH FREEDMAN

Sep 4, 2007

Jerusalem Post (Israel daily)

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull
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ahsan28
09-05-2007, 08:59 PM
The lesson of Bil'in

The last four years of Friday afternoon protests at the West Bank village of Bil'in have shown the Israeli occupation at its most robotically stupid, violent and unjust.

Israel still hasn't learned well enough the difference between security and land-grabbing, and it hasn't learned the difference between an angry Palestinian and a life-threatening Palestinian at all.

The Bil'in protests were an effectively non-violent campaign against some of the worst excesses of the occupation, and it won the victory in Israel's highest court. So maybe there's hope, after all.


By LARRY DERFNER

Sep 5, 2007

Jerusalem Post (Israel daily)


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull
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ahsan28
09-06-2007, 06:28 AM
HRW: Israel attacked Lebanese civilians indiscriminately

In its harshest condemnation of Israel since last summer's war, Human Rights Watch charged that most of the Lebanese civilian casualties came from "indiscriminate Israeli airstrikes," according to a report to be released Thursday.

In a statement issued before the report's release, the human rights organization said there was no basis to the Israeli claim that civilian casualties resulted from Hizbullah guerrillas using civilians as shields.

Human Rights Watch said it investigated 94 cases of Israeli air, artillery and ground attacks "to discern the circumstances surrounding the deaths of 510 civilians and 51 combatants," about half the death toll in Lebanon in the conflict.

6 Sep 2007

Jerusalem Post (Israel daily)

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull
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ahsan28
09-06-2007, 06:39 AM
Young US Jews 'detached' from Israel


Young American Jews are feeling increasingly alienated and disconnected from Israel, according to a study to be released Thursday by Professors Steven M. Cohen and Ari Y. Kelman. Based on the responses of more than 1,700 non-Orthodox American Jews of all ages, the study indicates that successively younger age groups show a greater detachment from the State of Israel.

"A mounting body of evidence has pointed to a growing distancing from Israel of American Jews, and the distancing seems to be most pronounced among younger Jews. Insofar as younger Jews are less attached to Israel, the inevitable replacement of older with younger birth cohorts leads to growing distancing in the population overall. If so, then American Jews, as a group, may be growing more distant primarily because younger Jews feel less attached to Israel."


6 Sep 2007

Jerusalem Post

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull
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ahsan28
09-07-2007, 02:06 PM
Children in Palestine: The Facts


1. According to the United Nations Fund for Children (UNICEF): "Conditions have rarely been worse for Palestinian children." One in 10 Palestinian children now suffer from stunted growth due to compromised health, poor diet and nutrition and 50% of Palestinian children are anemic, and 75% of those under 5 suffer from vitamin A deficiency.

2. UNICEF claims that roadblocks, barriers, checkpoints and soldiers are impeding health workers and patients, including child patients, from accessing health centers across the Occupied Palestinian Territory. Delivery of medication and equipment are also severely affected.

3. Rising poverty and unemployment is affecting school attendance across Palestine. In the 2005/6 school year the number of students whose families could not afford the NIS 50 ($11) school fee doubled from 29,000 to 56,000.

4. Up to 67% of families are living in poverty across the West Bank. In Gaza poverty rates have spiraled to 85% this year, severely affecting every aspect of children’s lives.

5. Increasing numbers of Palestinian children are now working to support their families instead of attending school. Palestinian children under the age of 14 can cross Israeli checkpoints without permits, and at least one thousand Palestinian children now cross into Israel every day, to work in garbage tips salvaging glass and metal. More than half of the Palestinian children who work in Israel, or Palestine, do not attend school at all.


Children Killed in Conflict

1. Since September 2000, approximately 883 Palestinian children have been killed in the Occupied Territories.

2. 20,000 Palestinian children have been injured since September 2000. Almost 1,500 of them sustained life-long disabilities.


Child Arrests

Since September 2002 approximately 5,200 Palestinian children have been arrested by the Israeli military. Israel continues to prosecute all children in military courts, to use imprisonment as a first resort, to deny children prompt access to a lawyer, to elicit confessions under interrogation and torture and to attempt to recruit child detainees as collaborators with Israel’s secret security agency.



http://uruknet.info/?p=m36029&hd=&size=1&l=e
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Zman
09-08-2007, 06:19 PM
:sl:

Israeli Soldier: Palestinians Are "Animals", We Are "Human"

Media Tags are no longer supported
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Zman
09-08-2007, 06:39 PM
:sl:
Doubt Israel Will Eexist Long-Term, Says Poll

Article From: Agence France-Presse
Courtesy Of: The Herald Sun
September 07, 2007 09:19pm
News.com.au

A QUARTER of Jewish Israelis doubt that Israel will exist long-term and more than 70 per cent have a bad assessment of the country's security situation, an opinion poll revealed today.

When asked if they “felt certain that Israel will exist in the distant future”, 25 per cent of respondents said no and 74 per cent of the respondents said yes, according to the results published in the Yediot Aharonot newspaper.
Only 57 per cent of respondents said it was safer for Jewish people to live in Israel than in the West, compared to 39 per cent who said it was safer in the West or amounted to the same thing.

Although 86 per cent felt Israel was a good place to live and 86 per cent described their mood as “good” as opposed to “bad”, 72 per cent of respondents said they were dissatisfied with the security situation in the country.

Some 26 per cent described the security situation as “good”.

The poll was carried out by an independent institute. It was based on a sample of about 500 Jewish Israelis and had a margin of error of 4.5 per cent.

Source:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...005961,00.html
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ahsan28
09-08-2007, 06:54 PM
Legal organization denounces Israeli assaults on prisoners' relatives

September 8, 2007

GAZA, (PIC)-- The prisoners' support organization has denounced the Israeli soldiers' assaults on the relatives of Palestinian prisoners in the Raymond jail, considering it disrespectful to human norms and conventions, and continuation of a "brutal measure against prisoners and their families.

In a statement received by the PIC, the organization called for the need to establish a human rights committee to protect the prisoners' families and to follow up their affairs from the moment of they arrive to Israeli jail until they leave in order to safeguard their lives and to maintain their dignity.

The organization called on legal and human rights institutions especially the Red Cross to assume their humanitarian and ethical responsibilities and to follow up the obstacles and problems which are faced by prisoners' relatives during their visits.

The organization also called on all liberal and democracy advocates all over the world to put pressure on the IOA, to force it to abide by the principles of human rights and stop its aggression against the Palestinian prisoners and their families.



http://uruknet.info/?p=m36076&hd=&size=1&l=e
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ahsan28
09-08-2007, 07:03 PM
Demolishing homes and livelihoods


Isabelle Humphries, The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs


Sep 8, 2007

American media may well have covered some aspects of Israel’s latest attacks on Gaza, but one is unlikely to have seen coverage of its continuing demolition of the homes of the weakest and most vulnerable Israeli citizens: the Bedouin Arabs of the Negev (Naqab) desert.

On May 8, the entire village of Twail Abu-Jarwal — 30 tents and huts, home to over 100 people — were destroyed on Israeli government orders. The Regional Council for the Unrecognized Villages in the Negev (RCUV) reported that at 9:30 a.m. — a time they knew village men would be at work — two bulldozers and dozens of armed Israeli police accompanying demolition workers entered the village. Police intelligence also would have been aware of the fact that many villagers were away attending a wedding in Jordan.

When the destruction was complete, nothing was left standing: water containers were trashed, and some dove hatchlings were even buried alive. A broken-down van which elderly villagers used as shelter from the sun had been pulled down.

Villagers who refused to move were physically dragged from their homes. When the son of one elderly man picked up fabric and a tent pole off the ground to create a new shelter for his father, he was arrested by police.


http://uruknet.info/?p=m36071&hd=&size=1&l=e
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wilberhum
09-12-2007, 11:35 PM
Israel town anger at school attack
Haroeh school is much like any other in Israel - two floors of classrooms, a play area, bike racks - apart from the massive metal umbrella arching overhead, to shield its 120 pupils from rocket attacks.
The school is in the centre of Sderot, Israel's only major town on the border with Gaza, a frequent target of home-made short-range rockets fired by Palestinian militants.

Monday - the second day of the school year - started in terror for the school and a small kindergarten over the road.

At 0800, at the start of the school day, one of the crude unguided rockets smacked into a small cluster of trees metres from the kindergarten.

Three such strikes within 10 minutes seemed precisely designed to catch children on their way to school, rendering the elaborate protective measures useless.

To the Islamic Jihad militants who fired them, the rockets were pay-back against Israel for the deaths of a number children in Israeli air strikes in Gaza in the past week.

To parents in Sderot, the attack was a further outrage and fuel for their struggle to pressure the Israeli government to provide better protection for their children.
(more)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6977346.stm
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sudais1
10-23-2007, 02:06 AM
The Zionist regime controlling Palestine must stop. Every inch that Israel sits on today is Palestinian land. If Israel was created in Britain I'm sure British people wouldn't stand for it. Or for that matter give Israel a state in the many states the United States has because they just love each other and it would traveling easier for their leaders. The Palestinian dead ones don't even have material to bury them because of Israel's blockade of absolutely everything. They Use the Palestinian water to fill pools, their blood to fill streets, and their lands to fill Israeli's. This regime always says that want peace while they continue to enlarge settlements within the West bank. This regime claim Jerusalem can be returned but they build a huge settlement is East Jerusalem. Israel want to reach a point where it would be impossible to take all the Israeli's from those settlements thus justifying the annexation of that land. Resistance fighters are called terrorist and Occupiers are "peaceful" IN ANY RIGHT MIND IS AN OCCUPATION PEACEFUL. YOU DO NOT GAIN PEACE BY OCCUPYING LANDS. THAT INCREASES THEIR DETERMINATION TO FIGHT YOU.


The Thread title states Whats wrong with Palestine? Let me tell you whats wrong with Palestine. LAD, THERE IS NO PALESTINE. CHECK THE MAP. its Jerusalem, Israel and Ramallah, Israel. Israel continue aggression against the Palestinian "terrorist" organizations for trying to defend their land. Palestine was not asked weather Israel could move in. They just Moved in. They bulldoze homes and kill innocent children on behalf of freedom from terrorism. Palestinians aren't even allowed to travel from one area to another. OH because their might be a resistance fighter amongst them. Hamas was elected BY THE PEOPLE but because Mr. Olmert, Gordon, and Bush don't see it legitimate there basically saying. WE DONT LIKE THE PEOPLE YOU CHOSE TO RULE YOU EVEN THO ITS DEMOCRACY, SO WE WILL FREEZE THE AID AND YOU DIE. Hamas was elected by the people, they serve the people and work for the people. THE UNITED STATES is the greatest bully the world has every seen and the days of Israeli rule over ALL Palestinian territory will soon come to an end. My Post is true in every manner

Peace to Palestine
and Freedom to Palestine
Peace to Al Aqsa
We Will Return

Peace
Sudais1
Reply

wilberhum
10-24-2007, 07:37 PM
Palestinian 'torture widespread'
Amnesty International has accused Hamas and Fatah of widespread human rights abuses, including torture, arbitrary detention and other ill treatment against each other.

The rights watchdog on Wednesday released a report criticising the Palestinian governments in both Gaza and the West Bank for harming civilians in their clashes.

In the report, the group said: "Arbitrary detentions and torture or other ill treatment of detainees by Hamas forces are now widespread and the initial improvements in the security situation which followed Hamas' takeover [of Gaza] are fast being eroded."

(More)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...A0166BC7D2.htm
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ahsan28
10-25-2007, 12:31 PM
J'lem church officials suspect extremist Jews behind arson

Haaretz
24/10/2007


A church in central Jerusalem was set afire before dawn Wednesday and suffered extensive damage, police said.

Arsonists, suspected to be extremist Jews, forced their way into the church and set it afire, church officials said Wednesday.

The sanctuary used by four separate congregations, including Baptists, had been burned down in 1982 by an ultranationalist Jewish group and later rebuilt.



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/S...&itemNo=916567
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