Questions about HInduism answered by a Hindu

[Sarada]

As Salaam Aleikum and Namaste,

If any one has any questions, I will be happy to answer them to the best of my ability. If I do not know the answer, I will ask my Guru and/or research it.

The Rig Veda says:" Seers call in many ways that which is One"

All the Best,

Sarada:sunny:

[north_malaysian]

What do Hindu thinks about Muslim's God - Allah?

I've asked this question to a Malaysian Hindu before, he said that Allah, Jesus, Jehovah etc. are all Gods too like any Hindu Gods and Goddesses.... is it true?

[lyesh]

In the Hindhu's beliefs, who created the Universe and all that exists?

[Sarada]

What do Hindu thinks about Muslim's God - Allah?

I've asked this question to a Malaysian Hindu before, he said that Allah, Jesus, Jehovah etc. are all Gods too like any Hindu Gods and Goddesses.... is it true?

Not exactly. For Hindus there is only One God. This God is Infinite, Eternal; has no beginning, middle or end; is beyond name and form, beyond gender, the Supreme Absolute, the Ultimate Reality, Brahman, Ishwar. Hindus believe that because God is so incomprehensible, God has manifested in many different attributes and forms so that we humans can better understand. Therefore we have entities that we worship like Lord Siva, Lord Krishna, Durga Mata, etc. They are part of God, or God manifesting in a limited way.

From my understanding, "Allah" means God in Arabic. To paraphrase one of our ancient scriptures, the Rig Veda: The learned call the One Reality in many ways. Therefore, Allah is the Supreme Absolute, the Ultimate Reality, Brahman or Ishwar.

So from a Hindu point of view, a Hindu can pray, calling Allah, because to us it is not important what name you use. Allah is not a form of God, Allah is God.

There is a song that Gandhi-ji used to sing that starts off like this:

"Ishwar, Allah, Tero Naam, sabko sanmati de Bhagwan", which means Your name is Ishwar, Allah, we beg you Lord, that you bless us all.


All the Best,

Sarada

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[InToTheRain]

From my understanding, "Allah" means God in Arabic. To paraphrase one of our ancient scriptures, the Rig Veda: The learned call the One Reality in many ways. Therefore, Allah is the Supreme Absolute, the Ultimate Reality, Brahman or Ishwar.

So from a Hindu point of view, a Hindu can pray, calling Allah, because to us it is not important what name you use. Allah is not a form of God, Allah is God.

There is a song that Gandhi-ji used to sing that starts off like this:

"Ishwar, Allah, Tero Naam, sabko sanmati de Bhagwan", which means Your name is Ishwar, Allah, we beg you Lord, that you bless us all.


All the Best,

Sarada

Sounds very similiar to pre-islamic times in Makkah. The people used to worship Idols, they Knew Allah(SWT) was the most supreme but they used to associate other Gods to him and use them as a means of getting closer to him. The people in Mekkah had no problem accepting Allah(SWT) but many had a problem rejecting those they falsely associate with him.

you might want to check this site out:

Similiarities between Islam and Hinduism

peace

[Sarada]

In the Hindhu's beliefs, who created the Universe and all that exists?

Hindusim is a religion that caters to different levels of understanding. There are many stories that are suited to different levels.

But ultimately it comes down to what Lord Krishna said in Ch 2. vs 8 of the Bhagavad Gita:

"na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. "


So creation is Eternal, without beginning, middle or end. Creation just is.

[Sarada]

Namaste, O Slave of Allah

Sounds very similiar to pre-islamic times in Makkah. The people used to worship Idols, they Knew Allah(SWT) was the most supreme but they used to associate other Gods to him and use them as a means of getting closer to him. The people in Mekkah had no problem accepting Allah(SWT) but many had a problem rejecting those they falsely associate with him.

you might want to check this site out:

Similiarities between Islam and Hinduism

I am famliar with Dr. Zakir Naik's work. He is a very knowledgeable and I respect him greatly.

I must explain, though, that Hindus do not worship idols. Many Hindus use idols and pictures to focus our minds on God, many do not. Both are acceptable practice in Hinduism.

I am not familiar with the pre-Islamic Gods and Goddesses that were worshipped in Makkah. There is a nuance of a difference between what you describe and Hindu worship. When Hindus pray to Lord Shiva, or Lord Krishna, they are praying to an aspect or attribute of the Supreme Being, but they are not praying to the picture or statue.

Let me use a crude example: imagine for a moment that Bhagwan (God) is perfect cut diamond. It is impossible to see all of the facets at once. Lord Krishna, Lord Shiva, Ram-ji, Durga Mata, etc. are all facets of that same Diamond.

[Sarada]

Namaste, Slave of Allah,

I like the quotation at the end of your post.

'O Muhammad (PBUH)! Indeed (the position of) your companions in my sight is like that of the stars in the sky, some brighter than others, though all possess light. Whomsoever selects any among their differing opinion, he has attained guidance in my sight.'

All the Best,

Sarada

[silkworm]

Hello Sarada, Hope you are doing fine, I am a Moslem but I have my own Bhagadgita, Bible and Torah. While I was going through Bhagawadgita, I cam across some verses which clearly says that "God is One", can you please check on the following verses:
1) Chapter 7, Vrse 20
2) Chapter 10, Vrse 3

Thanks and have a good one

[Sarada]

Namaste, Silkworm,

Thank-you for your post. I agree with you. As I have said in my answer to the first question, yes, God is One.

[Sarada]

Namste, Silkworm,

Here is a more lengthy answer to your question.

Bhagavad Gita:

Ch 7. vs 20:

Those whose minds are distorted by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.

HInduism admits that many of us have minds that continue to be deluded and distorted by material desires. These people "surrender unto ...."etc.
NOT in this context NOR any other should it be construed that Hindus consider Allah to be a demigod.


Ch 10 vs 3:

He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginningless, as the Supreme Lord of all the worlds--he, undeluded among men, is freed from all sins.

The goal of Hinduism is to become free of the delusion of this world, to achieve the knowledge of God as the Supreme Lord of all worlds.

Knowledge in this case refers to more than just book knowledge.Hindu scriptures recognize two types of knowledge: the lower knowledge and the higher knowledge.

The lower knowledge is about rites and rituals and can be gained by scholarly study of the scriptures.

Higher knowedge is gained through direct personal experience God. As in "I know Jane well". NOT: " I have learned about Jane".

[Grace Seeker]

Hi Sarada, glad you decided to create this thread.

Hindusim is a religion that caters to different levels of understanding. There are many stories that are suited to different levels.

But ultimately it comes down to what Lord Krishna said in Ch 2. vs 8 of the Bhagavad Gita:

"na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. "


So creation is Eternal, without beginning, middle or end. Creation just is.

How do you define the word "creation"? I understand it to mean something that is created, thus is has a beginning. Something that has no beginning cannot be created. As you said, it just is. So it seems an oxymoron to me to say that "Creation is Eternal."

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

What do Hindu thinks about Muslim's God - Allah?

bro , i think it's better not to say Muslim's God--Allah. It may create confusion.

God is only one---Allah is the Arabic word for God . Muslims don't have any separate god. Arab Christians also use the word Allah . I read in an article that in Arabic Bible , Jesus (p ) is son of Allah.


to the 1st poster : can u give me a link where i can find the stories of hindu dieties ?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

But ultimately it comes down to what Lord Krishna said in Ch 2. vs 8 of the Bhagavad Gita:

....So creation is Eternal, without beginning, middle or end. Creation just is.

I read that Lord Krishna died & was born again & again he died. It is said that he will come to the earth in every 100 yrs & will die also or something like that .

can u explain this more ?

[Sarada]

How do you define the word "creation"? I understand it to mean something that is created, thus is has a beginning. Something that has no beginning cannot be created. As you said, it just is. So it seems an oxymoron to me to say that "Creation is Eternal."

Namaste Grace Seeker,

I agree with you 100% the statement that creation is eternal is an oxymoron. I was responding to a question about who created the Universe and all that exists. Thanks for catching me in my inaccuracy, and giving me an opportunity to explain further.

What I should have said was that the Universe and everything that exists are eternal. I was thinking of the word creation in the way Christians use it, to mean all of the material world. (Being a former Christian, I still have vestiges of the Christian vernacular that pop up from time to time).

Hindus see God (Ishwar) as everything. The Universe is God, the tree is God, the stones are God, the insects, the animals, you, me, everything is God. So, if God is eternal, then the physical world in one sense is also eternal. In one sense only, because matter can be transformed into energy and vice versa. The potential for the existence of the physical world is eternal. But it is itself always changing, always transforming.

However, now we are getting into metaphysics a little, because we Hindus also believe that the material world, (because things change, caterpillars hatch form eggs, then become butterflies, plants and animals decay and die, rocks erode, etc. )is an illusion that we call Maya. We are spiritual beings inside a physical body, and therefore we act in a physical world. But the Ultimate Reality is God, eternal, infinite, transcendent, without beginning or end yet, seemingly paradoxically, Ishwar is also immanent because everything is in God.

[Grace Seeker]

However, now we are getting into metaphysics a little, because we Hindus also believe that the material world, (because things change, caterpillars hatch form eggs, then become butterflies, plants and animals decay and die, rocks erode, etc. )is an illusion that we call Maya. We are spiritual beings inside a physical body, and therefore we act in a physical world. But the Ultimate Reality is God, eternal, infinite, transcendent, without beginning or end yet, seemingly paradoxically, Ishwar is also immanent because everything is in God.

So, God is not material, but the material world (or at least the various elements of the material world) is god. Did I understand you correctly?

How about energy -- light, heat, kinetic energy -- are each of these god the same way that a tree or a stone is?

[Sarada]

Salaam, Muslim Woman,

read that Lord Krishna died & was born again & again he died. It is said that he will come to the earth in every 100 yrs & will die also or something like that .

can u explain this more ?

In the Bhagavad Gita ch 4, vs 7 it says:

"yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend Myself.

An incarnation of Ishwar, such as Lord Rama, or Lord Krishna, will appear in human form on this earth whenever unrighteousness (adharma)is predominant over righteousness (dharma) to correct the balance. In this way, Hindus believe, that Good will always ultimately overcome Evil. Since God appears in human form, this form is subject to all the laws of nature, and yes, his body will die.

I hope that helps.

Salaam and all the best,

Sarada

[Sarada]

Namaste Grace Seeker,

you asked:

How about energy -- light, heat, kinetic energy -- are each of these god the same way that a tree or a stone is?

Yes, energy, potential energy, matter everything is God. Everything exists in God.

I find that Hinduism being a non-dual philosophy encompasses all of the so-called pairs of opposites, whereas the philosophy of the Abrahamic religions is dual in nature.

Hindus can easily accept "both and" in instances where Christians, Muslims, and Jews would say it must be "either or"

A common example that everyone can agree on is the question of fire. Is fire beneficial or harmful? The answer, of course, is that it is both. Fire is used to cook our food and provide warmth and light, but it can also be destructive if we come too close or let it get out of control.

[lyesh]

Salaam, Muslim Woman,



In the Bhagavad Gita ch 4, vs 7 it says:

"yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend Myself.

An incarnation of Ishwar, such as Lord Rama, or Lord Krishna, will appear in human form on this earth whenever unrighteousness (adharma)is predominant over righteousness (dharma) to correct the balance. In this way, Hindus believe, that Good will always ultimately overcome Evil. Since God appears in human form, this form is subject to all the laws of nature, and yes, his body will die.

I hope that helps.

Salaam and all the best,

Sarada

Hi Sarada,

Thanks so much for ur answers :).
So according to ur beliefs, God comes to Earth as a human... to make the Good win over the Evil. right? I believe that these days there is so much mischief and evil going on in the world. So is there a God in human form right now? :?

And also, I would like to know... what do the hindhu's believe will happen to a person after he dies? Do you believe there will be resurrection?

once again thank you for ur answers. :)

[snakelegs]

i like hindu philosophy - or at least what i know of it. but as for the religion, i can't get past the caste system.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Hi Sarada,
:).
... I believe that these days there is so much mischief and evil going on in the world. So is there a God in human form right now? :?
. :)

also 1 related q:

how hindus will recognise god when he comes in human form ? Who was the god in human form after Lord Rama or Krishna ?

Is there anyone now ? If not why not ?

[Sarada]

i like hindu philosophy - or at least what i know of it. but as for the religion, i can't get past the caste system.

The caste system is actually a social construct rather than a religious one.
Albeit it has been in existence for thousands of years. Originally, it was means of categorizing people in the society according to their function. Thus, the varna system outlined the duties, responsibilities and rights of each group.

These categories were called Varnas, and were NOT hereditary. There were and are certain rules and standards of behaviour that apply to the varnas.

In the one of our religious scriptures, the Mahabharata, Yudhisthira, (a prince who represents righteousness) was questioned about what makes one a Brahmin. Yudhisthira, without hesitation, said that it is conduct alone that makes one a Brahmin.

In modern India, the caste system is becoming less and less important.

[Sarada]

Hi Sarada,

Thanks so much for ur answers :).
So according to ur beliefs, God comes to Earth as a human... to make the Good win over the Evil. right? I believe that these days there is so much mischief and evil going on in the world. So is there a God in human form right now? :?

And also, I would like to know... what do the hindhu's believe will happen to a person after he dies? Do you believe there will be resurrection?

once again thank you for ur answers. :)

There are some that claim to be God in human form now. But it is not easy to prove. Hindus believe that we are all a part of God. When we say "Namaste" it means "I bow to God within you".

It becomes a matter of personal faith, whether you think that this sage or that leader is actually God in human form. As Hindus, we have a very tolerant attitude to this. If someone chooses to believe that a person is God, that is their right. However, the ultimate test is the test of behaviour and actions, and only the Supreme Absolute knows the truth. I personally have not met or heard of anyone that I believe to be God.

We believe in reincarnation and karma, which means that there is a cycle of birth and death in which we must be reborn until all of our good deeds have cancelled all of our bad ones. When this occurs, we achieve moksha, or liberation from the cycle of birht and death, and we merge with the Supreme Reality.

[Sarada]

Salaam/peace;





also 1 related q:

how hindus will recognise god when he comes in human form ? Who was the god in human form after Lord Rama or Krishna ?

Is there anyone now ? If not why not ?

Lord Buddha was God in human form after Lord Krishna. We will not know for certain how to recognise God as a human being. It could be anyone. Therefore, we must treat each person with the same respect that we would show to God. "Namaste" means "I bow to God within you"

Some Hindus believe that one or another living person is God. I respect their right to feel that way, and I pray that they have not been mislead. I cannot refute their belief, either. But in my personal view, I have not heard of nor met anyone that I believe to be God incarnate.

As to the question of why? The answer is known only to the Supreme Absolute.

[sabah]

salam, great thread it gives me a chance to get to know more about the beliefs of others.

i have a question if you could answer it: i seen a programme about hindu beliefs and there was alot of people carryin out symbolic actions for things they wanted ie an increase in health or wealth, i didnt really understand the concept behind it, would u explain further.

thanks

[united]

would you say that the usage of idols may be a stepping stone to worship where idols are not neded.
would you also say that due to the lack of a better translation, the gods such as rama sita etc may be in actual facts pious people who called people towards God but were made into dieties themselves over a long period of time.

[snakelegs]

The caste system is actually a social construct rather than a religious one.
Albeit it has been in existence for thousands of years. Originally, it was means of categorizing people in the society according to their function. Thus, the varna system outlined the duties, responsibilities and rights of each group.

These categories were called Varnas, and were NOT hereditary. There were and are certain rules and standards of behaviour that apply to the varnas.

In the one of our religious scriptures, the Mahabharata, Yudhisthira, (a prince who represents righteousness) was questioned about what makes one a Brahmin. Yudhisthira, without hesitation, said that it is conduct alone that makes one a Brahmin.

In modern India, the caste system is becoming less and less important.

yes, in modern india - at least in the cities and among the growing middle class, castes are becoming less important. but i disagree that it is not hereditary.
btw, people are actually still getting killed in india for things like using the well of a higher caste.

[Sarada]

yes, in modern india - at least in the cities and among the growing middle class, castes are becoming less important. but i disagree that it is not hereditary.
btw, people are actually still getting killed in india for things like using the well of a higher caste.

Yes the caste system in India is hereditary; and yes, people are getting killed over caste issues. But that is a cultural phenomenon, not a religious one. It is sometimes difficult to separate cultural norms from religious ones, especially in the case of Hinduism, a religion that has been confined to a particular culture in one part of the world, and has only recently started gathering converts from different backgrounds.

Here is a link to a website which explains the caste system at length:

http://www.geocities.com/lamberdar/_caste.html

[Grace Seeker]

Namaste Grace Seeker,

you asked:



Yes, energy, potential energy, matter everything is God. Everything exists in God.

I find that Hinduism being a non-dual philosophy encompasses all of the so-called pairs of opposites, whereas the philosophy of the Abrahamic religions is dual in nature.

Hindus can easily accept "both and" in instances where Christians, Muslims, and Jews would say it must be "either or"

A common example that everyone can agree on is the question of fire. Is fire beneficial or harmful? The answer, of course, is that it is both. Fire is used to cook our food and provide warmth and light, but it can also be destructive if we come too close or let it get out of control.

I've noticed that. I don't know if you would say that Hinduism is relativistic, but I do notice that it has no absolutes in it.

[Sarada]

salam, great thread it gives me a chance to get to know more about the beliefs of others.

i have a question if you could answer it: i seen a programme about hindu beliefs and there was alot of people carryin out symbolic actions for things they wanted ie an increase in health or wealth, i didnt really understand the concept behind it, would u explain further.

thanks

Hindus are like most people, when we are in difficulties or in need, we pray to God for help. Hinduism is full of symbolic and elaborate rituals.

When we pray to an aspect or an avatar of God, we symbolically invite God as a guest. We shower God with all kinds of wonderful things, which we believe will make him/her happy. By doing so, we are also saying that I own nothing, everything I have is by Your Grace, and only for a time.

So if we wish to ask for something that we are in need of, be it health, adequate financial means, to mend a broken relationship, guidance, we ask in a ritualized way that we believe is honouring and respectful.

I have no experience as a Muslim, but when I was a Christian, I often prayed to God for help in my daily life.

[snakelegs]

Yes the caste system in India is hereditary; and yes, people are getting killed over caste issues. But that is a cultural phenomenon, not a religious one. It is sometimes difficult to separate cultural norms from religious ones, especially in the case of Hinduism, a religion that has been confined to a particular culture in one part of the world, and has only recently started gathering converts from different backgrounds.

Here is a link to a website which explains the caste system at length:

http://www.geocities.com/lamberdar/_caste.html

point taken. thanks.
namaste.

[Sarada]

would you say that the usage of idols may be a stepping stone to worship where idols are not neded.
would you also say that due to the lack of a better translation, the gods such as rama sita etc may be in actual facts pious people who called people towards God but were made into dieties themselves over a long period of time.

The pictures and statues that we use in our rituals and in our prayers are not idols. We do not worship these things. For us, they are symbols which help us not only to focus on certain aspects and attributes of God, but they also remind us of how we should behave in this world.

For example, Ram and Sita are examples of how we should conduct ourselves in this world, honourably, with dignity, and with love and compassion.

The picture of the Baby Krishna, reminds us that we need to be gentle. loving and tolerant with our children, and that we should enjoy them while they are young. Lord Shiva makes me think of meditation, Hanuman represents loyalty, etc.


From some perspectives that may be true. Not everyone believed that Ram and Sita were God during their time on earth.Believing that someone is an incarnation of God is a matter of faith. There is no test that can either prove it or disprove it. Naturally, when God takes form in a human body, He accepts the body's limitations, to some extent.

I would not ask you to believe that Ram and Sita were anything more than what you said. For me personally, it does not matter whether they existed or not (although I believe there is some historical evidence that they may have). What matters is the message and the lessons that these stories convey.

[Sarada]

I've noticed that. I don't know if you would say that Hinduism is relativistic, but I do notice that it has no absolutes in it.

If, by relativistic, you mean that there is no absolute truth, only truth relative to the individual, or to a particular time or culture, or both, then I would say, no. But I would say that we tend to be pragmatic, and we tend not to be authoritarian.

HIndus believe the Absolute Truth to be: " And when you have thus learned the truth, you will know that all living beings are but part of Me--and that they are in Me, and are Mine. "- Bhagavad Gita, Ch 4 vs 35.

BTW, there is a wonderful website containing a very good translation of the Gita:

http//www.asitis.com

We Hindus believe in the cause and effect of karma over many lifetimes: that you will eventually reap what you have sown. We have strong moral values, but it is not up to us to judge, condemn or meet out punishment from a religious perspective.That is left to karma and Bhagwan (Ishwar). Of course, from a societal point of view, we must maintain order and prevent chaos.

Hinduism shelters many different schools of thought under its umbrella. The main ones are:

the Arya Samaj, which worships only the formless aspect of God.

the Vaishnavites, who worship only Lord Vishnu and his Avatars such as Ram and Krishna.

the Shaivites, who focus mainly on Lord Shiva,

the Shaktiites, who worship mainly Durga Mata and Kali Mata, and

the Smartists, like me, who worship the five main aspects or attributes of Bhagwan. These are Lord Ganesha, all the forms of Devi (the female aspect of God), Lord Vishnu and his Avatars, Ram and Krishna, Lord Shiva and his Avatar, Hanuman-ji, and Surya Narayan, the Sun.

[rozeena]

in hinduism what is the purpose of us being created? and how many gods in total do you have?

[rozeena]

The pictures and statues that we use in our rituals and in our prayers are not idols. We do not worship these things. For us, they are symbols which help us not only to focus on certain aspects and attributes of God, but they also remind us of how we should behave in this world.


also where do you get their images/symbols from? eg, the elephant idol (sorry i dont know the name) that u worship, how do you know it is a elephant? n how can god look like something that he has created?

[Sarada]

Here is a comparison of Hinduism and Christianity, which I found at

www.himalayanacademy.com/basics/point/index.html

I think it might help to put things into perspective.

Although it has been taken from a Hindu website, the Christian viewpoint was written by the editors of 'Christianity Today'.

"Hindu-Christian Point-Counterpoint: Are all religions really one? Read this point-counterpoint and decide for yourself! This is a list of nine parallel aspects of theology from both faiths, e.g., the concept of Hindu liberation is compared with the Christian concept of salvation. A collaboration between the editors of Hinduism Today and the editors of Christianity Today (who wrote every word of the Christian beliefs), this comparison was printed in Christianity Today to give readers a better understanding of Hinduism."


http://www.himalayanacademy.com/basics/


(The above was added on Aug.21, 2007 to avoid any misunderstanding as to the source of the description of Christian beliefs)

Hindu Christian Point Counter Point

1) Christians believe that the Bible is the uniquely inspired and fully trustworthy word of God. It is the final authority for Christians in matters of belief and practice, and though it was written long ago, it continues to speak to believers today.

1) Hindus believe in the divinity of the Vedas, the world's most ancient scripture, and venerate the Agamas as equally revealed. These primordial hymns are God's word and the bedrock of Sanatana Dharma, the eternal religion which has neither beginning nor end.


2) Christians believe in one God in three persons. He is distinct from his creation, yet intimately involved with it as its sustainer and redeemer.

2) Hindus believe in a one, all-pervasive supreme being who is both immanent and transcendent, both Creator and Unmanifest Reality.

3) Christians believe that the world was created once by the divine will, was corrupted by sin, yet under God's providence moves toward final perfection.

3) Hindus believe that the universe undergoes endless cycles of creation, preservation and dissolution.

4) Christians believe that, through God's grace and favor, lost sinners are rescued from the guilt, power and eternal consequences of their evil thoughts, words and deeds.

4) Hindus believe in karma, the law of cause and effect by which each individual creates his own destiny by his thoughts, words and deeds.

5) Christians believe that it is appointed for human beings to die once and after that face judgment. In Adam's sin, the human race was spiritually alienated from God, and that those who are called by God and respond to his grace will have eternal life. Those who persist in rebellion will be lost eternally.

5) Hindus believe that the soul reincarnates, evolving through many births until all karmas have been resolved,
and moksha, spiritual knowledge, and liberation from the cycle of rebirth, is attained.
Not a single soul will be deprived of this destiny.

6) Christians believe that spirit beings inhabit the universe, some good and some evil, but worship is due to God alone.


6) Hindus believe that divine beings exist in unseen worlds and that temple worship, rituals, sacraments as well as personal devotionals create a communion with these beings.

7) Christians believe that God has given us a clear revelation of Himself in Jesus and the sacred Scriptures. He has empowered by his Spirit prophets, apostles, evangelists, and pastors who are teachers charged to guide us into faith and holiness in accordance with his Word.

7) Hindus believe that a spiritually awakened master, or satguru, is essential to know the Transcendent Absolute, as are personal discipline, good conduct, purification, pilgrimage, self-inquiry and meditation.

8) Christians believe that life is to be highly esteemed but that it must be subordinated in the service of Biblical love and justice.


8) Hindus believe that all life is sacred, to be loved and revered, and therefore practice ahimsa, "noninjury."

9) Christians believe that Jesus is God incarnate and, therefore, the only sure path to salvation. Many religions may offer ethical and spiritual insights, but only Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

9) Hindus believe that no particular religion teaches the only way to salvation above all others, but that all genuine religious paths are facets of God's Pure Love and Light, deserving tolerance and understanding.

[Sarada]

in hinduism what is the purpose of us being created? and how many gods in total do you have?

We are all jivanatmas, or living souls, part of the Paramatma, the Supreme Soul which is God. In God's "leela" or divine play, we experience material existence. As a result of taking birth as a physical being of flesh and blood, our pure nature, over lifetimes becomes covered with impurities. It is our purpose to remove those impurities by devotion to God, selfless service to all living beings (especially humans), meditation, pilgrimage, and right action. Having removed all of the impurities, we achieve Moksha, or liberation, and join once again with the Paramtma,

also where do you get their images/symbols from? eg, the elephant idol (sorry i dont know the name) that u worship, how do you know it is a elephant??

We do not worship an elephant idol. We worship an attribute or aspect of God which we visualize as having an elephant's head. One of the popular names of this attribute is Ganesha. Hindu pictures and statues are very symbolic. They are not meant to be taken literally. So, for example when you see a statue with 4 or more arms, it does not mean that we believe such a being actually existed. It is used to represent the immense power of God.

Here is a quote from: http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/ganesha/ which explains some of the symbolism of Ganesha or Ganapati.

"The most striking feature of Ganesha is his elephant head, symbolic of auspiciousness, strength and intellectual prowess. All the qualities of the elephant are contained in the form of Ganpati. The elephant is the largest and strongest of animals of the forest. Yet he is gentle and, amazingly, a vegetarian, so that he does not kill to eat. He is very affectionate and loyal to his keeper and is greatly swayed if love and kindness are extended to him. Ganesha, though a powerful deity, is similarly loving and forgiving and moved by the affection of his devotees. But at the same time the elephant can destroy a whole forest and is a one-man army when provoked. Ganesha is similarly most powerful and can be ruthless when containing (opposing) evil."

n how can god look like something that he has created?

We Hindus believe that, God, being all powerful can take any form he wishes.

I hope that answers some of your questions. No doubt, by my answer, I have raised more.

Salaam,

Sarada

[silkworm]

NAMASTE Sarada, I am here not to accuse any religion but just to seek knowledge, thanks for your great behavior, I hope we will get along fine, thanks again.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

Is it true that Hindus believe if u sin in this life, u will born again in the world as cat , dog or
rat ?????

[Sarada]

NAMASTE Sarada, I am here not to accuse any religion but just to seek knowledge, thanks for your great behavior, I hope we will get along fine, thanks again.

Namaste, Silkworm, I bow to God within you.

It is an honour to be given a chance to explain my views. My purpose here is to promote better understanding amongst people of all religions, and to share knowledge, both mine and yours. I believe that by understanding many different points of view, we achieve a personal growth that is not possible in any other way.

I am sure that we will get along fine. The people I have met on this forum are very respectful of me, I appreciate that very much, and I hope they feel that I return that respect to them.

Here is a "sloka" or quote from, I believe, the Rig Veda called Shanti Paath:


"Aum dow shanti,
Anta riksha gwam shanti,
Prithivi shanti, Rapah shanti,
Roshadaya shanti, Vanaspatay shanti,
Vishwa devah shanti, Brahma shanti,
Sarvagwang shanti, Shanti reva,
Shanti sama Shanti redhi.
AUM SHANTIH SHANTIH SHANTIH"


May there be peace in Heaven,
Peace in the Atmosphere,
Peace across the waters,
May there be peace on Earth,
May peace flow from herbs, plants and trees,
May all the celestial beings pervade peace,
May peace pervade all quarters,
May that peace come to us too.
MAY THERE BE PEACE PEACE PEACE

[Sarada]

Salaam/ peace ;

Is it true that Hindus believe if u sin in this life, u will born again in the world as cat , dog or
rat ?????

Salaam Muslim Woman, and Namaste,

We Hindus believe that you can be reborn as any living thing, including a tree. A human birth is said to be an honour that takes many lifetimes to achieve. It is only when the soul takes a human form, that it can achieve moksha, or liberation and union with God. So, if one insists on behaving like an animal, then it is likely that he/she will be reborn as one. If we behave in a virtuous manner, then, it is likely that we will be reborn in a virtuous family. However, we could also be reborn in a place devoid of virtue, where our previous good actions and the merit we have achieved, will help us to show others the way.

If we wish to achieve moksha, one of the best ways to do it is to constantly repeat the name of God. For when you are constantly thinking of God, how can you do anything but good? Also, we believe, your last words and thoughts influence your next birth. Mahatma Gandhi-ji's last words were: "he Ram" we believe that because of his life's work and that his last thoughts were of Rama, he has now achieved union or yoga with God, and does not have to be reborn again.

Salaam,
and All the best,

Sarada

[Sarada]

Salaam Aleikum and Namaste to All.

I want to make one thing perfectly clear: that is I have no intention whatsoever to persuade any one to become a Hindu.

Many Hindu leaders as well as Mother Theresa have said:>

" If you are a Christian, be a good Christian, if you are a Hindu, be a good Hindu, if you are a Muslim, be a good Muslim, if your are a Sikh, be a good Sikh... etc."

The important thing is to have faith in God, whether you call him Jesus, Ram, Jehovah, or Allah he is the One called by many different names.
Follow your own faith sincerely to the best of your ability and devotion, and you will achieve liberation.

The constant proselytizing practiced by Christians is one of the big reasons why no longer believe in that faith. That being said, I have been generously given a copy of the Qur'an by a Muslim man, and I was deeply honoured. He gave it to me respectfully for my consideration, knowing that I am a Hindu. He did not pressure me, he just made me promise that I would read it. I already had a copy, which I have read a long time ago.

Would someone please let me know the best way to read to Qur'an? Should I start from the beginning and just keep going? Or, are there certain surahs, that I should read first?

Salaam,

Sarada

[snakelegs]

the fact that it does not proselytize is something i like about hinduism. actually i think only islam and christianity proselytize. and generally speaking, muslims are much less aggressive in their approach than christians.
as for your question on how best to read the qur'an, i'll leave that to a muslim.

[silkworm]

Sarada, While I was living in Houston a buddy on mine asked me to accompany him to meet his "Mother" ofcourse I knew that this was not his real mother cause he was from Karachi too, anyways we met this wonderful lady along with her soft spoken husband.

Being an offspring of parents of Indian origin, I was attracted to that elderly couple. They later told me they are "Jains" and they do not eat anything that is grown underneath the earth. So eating the food that was without garlic/ginger was aweful and the discussions we had was faboulous and we still are intouch with each other even though I moved to Chicago about three years ago.

[thirdwatch512]

Hello.. What a great thread. I have read every post so far, and must say, Hinduism sounds like a VERY beautiful religion. It is also the oldest religion, which is amazing lol

I have met 6 converts to Hinduism.. And every one of these converts have become such great people!

Ok, so here are a few questions..

1. When did the last Hindu G-d come, that is universally recognized? I know that someone told me that it was the 14th century. Is that true?

2. In Hindu Scriptures, could these people perform miracles and all?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

I have no intention whatsoever to persuade any one to become a Hindu.

i heard that if one wants to be a Hindu , s/he won't be allowed be a
Bhraman ( the highest class ) .

S/he will have to be a lower class hindu . Is that true ??



after becoming a tree or cat / dog , how one can again be born as a human being ?

Would someone please let me know the best way to read to Qur'an?

u may read the 1st Sura/ chapter , then can go to Para 30 ( don't know exact Eng word.....later part of the Quran ) as there are many small chapters ....easy to read.

or u may read as it is ...up to u :)

u may read with commentary so that verses on war , polygamy may not create confusion.

Have u heard of Dr. Zakir Naik ? He gave a lecture on similarities between HInduism & Islam......wonderful talk. If possible try to listen :)

it must be hard for u to ans all alone...why not invite ur other friends , too ??

[Sarada]

Namaste, and Salaam Aleikum, Muslim Woman,

Your questions are very thoughtful, and I appreciate your concern for me very much. It is always gratifying to experience the compassion of others.
I have had a very busy day, and I'm exhausted. But, I will answer you questions tomorrow.

I am familiar with Dr. Naik's work. In fact, I have a copy of the DVD where he had discussion with Shree Shree Ravi Shankar on the merits of Islam versus Hinduism. It is well worhth seeing.

Salaam,

Sarada

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

I will answer you questions tomorrow.

no hurry , take ur time pl.

I have a copy of the DVD where he had discussion with Shree Shree Ravi Shankar

I have statred watching Peace TV ( it's channel of Dr. Zakir's ). I saw few scenes there of the debate.



Dr. Zakir gave references from ur holy books --- of that God , there is no image , they are entering in darkness who worship …. Idols ?? etc ...i guess u remembered ?



These were from Geeta , chaper 7 , verse 20 , Alloporishod etc.



I think , making statue , idol worshipping is prohibited in ur religion . So , why Hindus make statues ? Ganesh , Lakhmi , Ma kaali ---- ur holy books tell u to make their statues & bow down to them ? Where are those verses ??



I know u r under pressure ....don't bother to ans all at a time ......random questions are coming in to mind & i just want to ask before i forget :sunny:


How u can be sure that Lord Buddha was god in human form ? He claimed so ??





In other thread , a Buddhist told us most of them are atheists .

If Hindus believe Buddha was god , how come his followers are called Buddhist but not Hindus? Do they ( Buddhists) agree with Hindu’s view about this matter ?



Lord Krishna killed a tyrant king , Buddha killed whom ?

[Trumble]

How u can be sure that Lord Buddha was god in human form ? He claimed so ??

No. He was a human being, pure and simple, and never claimed otherwise. What he achieved is attainable by everybody. Eventually!

In other thread , a Buddhist told us most of them are atheists

If Hindus believe Buddha was god , how come his followers are called Buddhist but not Hindus? Do they ( Buddhists) agree with Hindu’s view about this matter ?.

No, we don't. As to 'atheism', as I've said elsewhere you need to be very sensitive to particular cultures and cultural mixes in using such terms. Buddhists deny the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, primordial creator God (i.e the God of Islam, Judaism and Christianity). Many Buddhists, particularly in Asia (rarely in the West) do believe in 'gods' of some sort or another, and even 'worship' them to request favors, good luck, and such. You will therefore have Nepalese and Indian Buddhists who share some beliefs associated with Hinduism, Japanese who share those associated with Shinto, and so on. The essential distinction is that those gods are subject to the same laws of cause and effect; the same workings of the Universe and Reality as everything else, including people.

Lord Krishna killed a tyrant king , Buddha killed whom ?

Nobody, so far as we know. Apart from Mara, the tempter - essentially the dark and unenlightened side of himself and, indeed, all of us. Not the same thing at all, but not insignificant - as I suspect the Hindu references are primarily metaphorical as well. Most Indian and indeed Eastern religious writing is like that - it is not intended to be a factual description of historic events, not least because the historic events are not important. Is the teachings of they way things are, the Dharma, that is important - and that exists whatever the history might be. The stories of the Buddha's life are full of events that illustrate particular points of his teachings, but many probably never actually happened, and some are obviously purely metaphorical.

[Ebtisweetsam]

Hi
my question is what is the significance of the Cow and is it worshipped?

Also, did Buddha ask to be worshipped as a God, or did people just choose to do that?

Thankyou

[Sarada]

Thank-you, Trumble for answering the questions regarding Buddha. To put a Hindu perspective on Gautama Buddha, although we regard him as an avatar along with Shri Ram and Shri Krishna, as far as I know, actual worship of him is not common.

All the Best,

Sarada

[Abdul-Raouf]

Check these verses :

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/42508-vedas.html

[Sarada]

Hi
my question is what is the significance of the Cow and is it worshipped?

We do not worship the cow, but we give it special honours. We do not eat beef. The reason for this is historical, and it continues to this day. Cows provide us with milk to drink. Milk is a very nourishing, almost perfect food for humans, second only to our own mother's milk. Because of this, we believe that the cow is equal to our mother, and we treat that species of animal accordingly, giving the cow greater respect than all other animals.

Also, did Buddha ask to be worshipped as a God, or did people just choose to do that?

Thankyou

Buddha never claimed to be God. Trumble answered this question in greater detail, in his post, (above).

Buddha is not generally worshipped by Hindus, all though there may be a few exceptions.


All the Best,

Sarada

[Sarada]

Muslim Woman asked me:

heard that if one wants to be a Hindu , s/he won't be allowed be a
Bhraman ( the highest class ) .

S/he will have to be a lower class hindu . Is that true ?

As I said in a previous post, and I also provided a link to scholarly explanation of the caste system, the hereditary caste system is a cultural phenomenon.

Varnas are mentioned in the scriptures, and they depend on your function. According to our scriptures, if you have the education and skill, and are living the life, and performing the function, then you are a brahmin, the same goes for kshatriya, vaishya, and shudra.

[Sarada]

Dr. Zakir gave references from ur holy books --- of that God , there is no image , they are entering in darkness who worship …. Idols ?? etc ...i guess u remembered ?



These were from Geeta , chaper 7 , verse 20 , Alloporishod etc.

Salam, Muslim Woman,

Here is the translation and explanation of the verse from the "The Bhagavad Gita As It Is"

"Those whose minds are distorted by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.
PURPORT
Those who are freed from all material contaminations surrender unto the Supreme Lord and engage in His devotional service. As long as the material contamination is not completely washed off, they are by nature nondevotees. But even those who have material desires and who resort to the Supreme Lord are not so much attracted by external nature; because of approaching the right goal, they soon become free from all material lust. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is recommended that whether one is free from all material desires, or is full of material desires, or desires liberation from material contamination, or is a pure devotee and has no desire for material sense gratification, he should in all cases surrender to Vasudeva and worship Him.
It is said in the Bhagavatam that less intelligent people who have lost their spiritual sense take shelter of demigods for immediate fulfillment of material desires. Generally, such people do not go to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, because they are in particular modes of nature (ignorance and passion) and therefore worship various demigods. Following the rules and regulations of worship, they are satisfied. The worshipers of demigods are motivated by small desires and do not know how to reach the supreme goal, but a devotee of the Supreme Lord is not misguided. Because in Vedic literature there are recommendations for worshiping different gods for different purposes (e.g., a diseased man is recommended to worship the sun), those who are not devotees of the Lord think that for certain purposes demigods are better than the Supreme Lord. But a pure devotee knows that the Supreme Lord Krsna is the master of all. In the Caitanya-caritamrta it is said that only the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, is master and all others are servants. Therefore a pure devotee never goes to demigods for satisfaction of his material needs. He depends on the Supreme Lord. And the pure devotee is satisfied with whatever He gives. "

I think , making statue , idol worshipping is prohibited in ur religion .

So , why Hindus make statues ? Ganesh , Lakhmi , Ma kaali ---- ur holy books tell u to make their statues & bow down to them ? Where are those verses ?

Yes indeed, Islam prohibits statues and idol worshipping. But those are the rules for your beliefs. Hindus have a different perspective, and I repeat myself again and again:

HINDUS DO NOT WORSHIP IDOLS.

We use pictures and statues to help us focus on a particular aspect of God. Give us a little credit: we Hindus can understand the difference between a manufactured object and God. Every religion has its own rituals and methods of worship, Hindu methods of worship are different from Islam.

You are as entitled to worship God in your way as I am in mine. I am here to explain about Hinduism, not justify it. We need no one from outside to validate our beliefs and practices, just as Islam does not need any outside religion to confirm that your beliefs are true.

[Sarada]

As Salaam Aleikum Sisters and Brothers,

I joined this forum because I had some specific questions about Islam, which have been answered to my satisfaction.

I was asked if I would participate in a thread about Hinduism, and I gladly accepted. My purpose on this thread is to answer legitimate questions about Hinduism, not to justify it from an Islamic or other perspective.

I have repeatedly answered questions about idol worship and so-called many gods and goddesses. If you have any more questions along those lines, please refer to my earlier posts.

I also do not appreciate any one trying to convince me to change my religion. I am not here to ask you to change yours.

I repeat a quote from one of my earlier posts with which I strongly agree:
" If you are Christian, be a good Christian, if you are a Hindu, be a good Hindu, if you are a Muslim, be a good Muslim," even if you are an atheist, be a good atheist...etc.

I will be very happy to answer any legitimate questions you may have. Those questions which I think are inappropriate, I will ignore.

I wish you all the very best, and may you all find absolute peace and contentment, whatever your path.

Sarada

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Sarada : we regard him as an avatar along with Shri Ram and Shri Krishna,



---who decided & when that Gautam Budhha is god in human form ?

[snakelegs]

As Salaam Aleikum Sisters and Brothers,

I joined this forum because I had some specific questions about Islam, which have been answered to my satisfaction.

I was asked if I would participate in a thread about Hinduism, and I gladly accepted. My purpose on this thread is to answer legitimate questions about Hinduism, not to justify it from an Islamic or other perspective.

I have repeatedly answered questions about idol worship and so-called many gods and goddesses. If you have any more questions along those lines, please refer to my earlier posts.

I also do not appreciate any one trying to convince me to change my religion. I am not here to ask you to change yours.

I repeat a quote from one of my earlier posts with which I strongly agree:
" If you are Christian, be a good Christian, if you are a Hindu, be a good Hindu, if you are a Muslim, be a good Muslim," even if you are an atheist, be a good atheist...etc.

I will be very happy to answer any legitimate questions you may have. Those questions which I think are inappropriate, I will ignore.

I wish you all the very best, and may you all find absolute peace and contentment, whatever your path.

Sarada

sounds fair enough to me. though you realize that both islam and christianity are proselytizing religions, and so you are bound to run in to people who will try to change you.
interestingly, they don't have a monopoly on this - atheists and some agnostics will also try to change people's beliefs, just as much as muslims and christians, and i don't know what their excuse is. ;D
i actually didn't know that one could become a hindu - formally convert to hinduism. can you describe what that ritual is like? since hinduism generally does not proselytize (except for hare krishnas), i assumed that it didn't have anything like formal conversion.

[Sarada]

[QUOTE=snakelegs;808121]sounds fair enough to me. though you realize that both islam and christianity are proselytizing religions, and so you are bound to run in to people who will try to change you.
interestingly, they don't have a monopoly on this - atheists and some agnostics will also try to change people's beliefs, just as much as muslims and christians, and i don't know what their excuse is. ;D [quote]

Thanks for your support, Snakelegs.

i actually didn't know that one could become a hindu - formally convert to hinduism. can you describe what that ritual is like? since hinduism generally does not proselytize (except for hare krishnas), i assumed that it didn't have anything like formal conversion.

You are right, there is not a formal conversion ritual to become a Hindu. Many Hindus believe that everyone is already born a Hindu, so there is no need for a formal conversion. We also believe that you can be a Hindu and still worship God in the manner of any other religion, be it Jewish, B'ahai, or whatever, because all paths lead to God.

There are two rituals that are practiced which can be used to formally induct someone into Hinduism. One is the naming ceremony, where one is given a Hindu name, and the other is Guru Diksha, where the relationship between Guru and student is established.

The rituals can be combined, as they were in my case. First, offerings of water, flowers, spices, fragrance, light, incense and food (fruits, nuts and sweets) are made to the various aspects of God while various mantras are spoken, praising the individual aspect, and describing what is happening.

The usual aspects are The Remover of Obstacles, The Granter of Prosperity and Harmony, Wisdom and Knowledge, The Sustainer of Life and Protector of Righteousness, The Destroyer of Evil, and The Granter of Intelligence, These offerings are presented first on an altar, which is usually at ground level. People sit on the floor, the facing the altar.

Then, similar offerings are placed in a small fire that is lit in a metal container specifically for that purpose. Appropriate mantras and commentary are then recited.

When these things have been done, the pujari or officiating priest will announce the new name of the devotee in front of God. Then the Guru and the devotee are covered by a white sheet. Under the sheet, the Guru whispers a secret into the devotee's ear. This secret must never be divulged.

The sheet is lifted, and the ritual is completed with everyone standing up to sing a hymn of praise to God.

The devotee involved in the ritual will wave a small lamp (or diya which contains ghee and a wick) in front of the altar.

The final mantras are spoken, and everyone present is given some of the food that has been offered to God, as symbol of God's Grace.

All the Best,

Sarada

[Sarada]

Salaam/peace;

Sarada : we regard him as an avatar along with Shri Ram and Shri Krishna,



---who decided & when that Gautam Budhha is god in human form ?

Namaste Muslim Woman,

There is no ruling council which makes decisions or pronouncements for Hindus. These decisions evolve over time by consensus. In the end there may still be people who disagree with a certain outcome. That is their right. We simply agree to disagree.

[InToTheRain]

Peace Sarada,

I hope everyone appreciates your response as much as me, good work :thumbs_up

I have found this somewhere on the web regarding the rights of Hindu woman, is it true?

1. The Hindu Woman has no right to divorce her husband.
2. She has no property or inheritance rights.
3. Choice of partner is limited because she can only marry within her own caste; moreover her horoscope must match that of the intending bridegroom/family.
5. If her husband dies she should commit Sati (being cremated with her dead husband). Since today's law forbids Sati, society mainly punishes her in other "holy" ways (see below).
6. She cannot remarry.
7. The widow is considered to be a curse and must not be seen in public.She cannot wear jewelry or colorful clothes. (She should not even take part in her children's marriage!)

[snakelegs]

[QUOTE=Sarada;808160]

You are right, there is not a formal conversion ritual to become a Hindu. Many Hindus believe that everyone is already born a Hindu, so there is no need for a formal conversion. We also believe that you can be a Hindu and still worship God in the manner of any other religion, be it Jewish, B'ahai, or whatever, because all paths lead to God.

There are two rituals that are practiced which can be used to formally induct someone into Hinduism. One is the naming ceremony, where one is given a Hindu name, and the other is Guru Diksha, where the relationship between Guru and student is established.

The rituals can be combined, as they were in my case. First, offerings of water, flowers, spices, fragrance, light, incense and food (fruits, nuts and sweets) are made to the various aspects of God while various mantras are spoken, praising the individual aspect, and describing what is happening.

The usual aspects are The Remover of Obstacles, The Granter of Prosperity and Harmony, Wisdom and Knowledge, The Sustainer of Life and Protector of Righteousness, The Destroyer of Evil, and The Granter of Intelligence, These offerings are presented first on an altar, which is usually at ground level. People sit on the floor, the facing the altar.

Then, similar offerings are placed in a small fire that is lit in a metal container specifically for that purpose. Appropriate mantras and commentary are then recited.

When these things have been done, the pujari or officiating priest will announce the new name of the devotee in front of God. Then the Guru and the devotee are covered by a white sheet. Under the sheet, the Guru whispers a secret into the devotee's ear. This secret must never be divulged.

The sheet is lifted, and the ritual is completed with everyone standing up to sing a hymn of praise to God.

The devotee involved in the ritual will wave a small lamp (or diya which contains ghee and a wick) in front of the altar.

The final mantras are spoken, and everyone present is given some of the food that has been offered to God, as symbol of God's Grace.

All the Best,

Sarada

interesting - thanks.
must you have a guru to be a hindu?
i ask because there is a kali temple here in california and they do not have a guru. they have monthly ceremony and an annual puja where the pujari from the kali temple in dhakshineshwar(spelling?) in calcutta comes and officiates. i've attended a few because my godson is what i would call a new age type hindu - so i've gone with him.
it was really cool - non-stop music, food - lots of singing and clapping. no preaching. the followers were a mixture of indians and westerners. no one even asked me if i was hindu or not. there was one part where the people went up to the pujari with a basket and bowed to kali. i didn't participate in that part and there was absolutely no pressure on me to do so - in fact, i don't think anyone even noticed! i enjoyed it very much.
i've also attended (with him) some satsangs of siddha yoga. they do have a guru. it was also a mixture of indians and westerners. it was interesting but nearly as much spirit as the kali puja people - a totally different atmosphere.

[thirdwatch512]

Namaste sarada! -
I have one simple question.. What was the original name for Hinduism, and what does it mean? Like I know that many Hinduism is called different names by different people. So what was the first? And was it perscribed in the Veda's, or any Hindui texts? If so, what does it mean?
Thanks!

3. Choice of partner is limited because she can only marry within her own caste; moreover her horoscope must match that of the intending bridegroom/family.

The caste system has been answered a thousands times. Perhaps you should read this thread before asking! :)

[Grace Seeker]

We do not worship the cow, but we give it special honours. We do not eat beef. The reason for this is historical, and it continues to this day. Cows provide us with milk to drink. Milk is a very nourishing, almost perfect food for humans, second only to our own mother's milk. Because of this, we believe that the cow is equal to our mother, and we treat that species of animal accordingly, giving the cow greater respect than all other animals.

I never thought of this before, but your post brought it to my mind. If the special honor given a cow is because of its ability to give milk that is second only to our mother's milk, do Hindus reserve this special status only for the female of the bovine species or are bulls and steers also given this special status?

[JustinHesychast]

Wow! What a great thread! Thanks!

Why not honor goats, and other female animals who also give drinkable (even by humans, such as the aforementioned goat) milk?

Do you know of any online videos of rituals? The one you mentioned with the flowers and whatnot sounded really lovely.

Is Hindu worship a private devotion thing, are there special congregations, or what?

It's really interesting how Buddhism and Hinduism believe that all paths lead to God, even other religions. As a Christian, I can't seem to wrap my mind around that.

If one is reborn a tree, dog, etc., how can one become human again for "another chance"? And if reincarnation were the case, then how does the population continually increase more than ever before? Are there a finite number of spirits (or souls, what do you call them?), or does God (which is also in everything such as trees and rocks, what about a computer since the computer had to have God-created things to be made?) continually make souls?

Thanks

[JustinHesychast]

I can't send PM's yet (not for 45 more posts...). Can you email your Christianity to Hinduism story to me? It is in my profile. Or PM me since with one more post you will have 50. Thanks!

[Trumble]

It's really interesting how Buddhism and Hinduism believe that all paths lead to God, even other religions.

Buddhists don't believe that, as they don't believe there is a God to lead to.

If one is reborn a tree, dog, etc., how can one become human again for "another chance"? And if reincarnation were the case, then how does the population continually increase more than ever before? Are there a finite number of spirits (or souls, what do you call them?), or does God (which is also in everything such as trees and rocks, what about a computer since the computer had to have God-created things to be made?) continually make souls?

I'm tempted to answer that fully from a Buddhist perspective, but that would not be appropriate to a thread on Hinduism. All I will say is that it is important to avoid assuming that because the terminology is the same the meaning must also be the same - that is not the case. The Buddhist and Hindu concepts of re-incarnation are rather different, as is their idea of karma. Buddhists do not believe in immutable 'souls', and deny that there is any permanent 'one' or 'Self' to be reborn.

[JustinHesychast]

Oh, my apologies. I read in the "Buddhism for Idiots" book that Buddhists believe whatever works for you, then that's fine. Which is probably where I got it confused. ^-^;;

[Trumble]

I read in the "Buddhism for Idiots" book that Buddhists believe whatever works for you, then that's fine.

Yes. And no. :D

Buddhism is a purely practical teaching, with it's objective being the end of suffering - achieved through the direct realisation of how the world actually is, and the consequential cessation of re-birth. There is no compulsion and any individual is free to do, and believe, what they see fit towards that achieving that goal. There is much variation and diversity in Buddhism.

But... the goal itself is fundamental and without it belief and practice is no longer Buddhist (although that doesn't mean those from other religions cannot practice Buddhist meditation technique, for example). Hence while some Buddhists may share some Hindu beliefs, that is only because those beliefs do not contradict fundamental Buddhist principals. Belief in an omnipotent, omnescient, primordial creator God is not compatible with Buddhist belief in the same way, hence you cannot have a Christian or muslim Buddhist, or indeed a Buddhist Christian or muslim.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

... Can you email your Christianity to Hinduism story to me?

i guess , many of us would love to hear her revert story . So sis , if u decide to share ur story , if possible post it here .

thanks for giving us a chance to ask about ur new religion . Don't get tired or upset +o( .....many things to ask :D ----no intention to iritate u :p



Sarada : We use pictures and statues to help us focus on a particular aspect of God.



--- ur holy books allow it?




May be , u r just bowing down to them but not worshipping these idols but .... On basis of which holy books , Hindus are making statues of these deities ??




Can u give me some verses those support these methods ?

I m asking again , in the most holies books of Hindus such as Veda or Geeta ----names of other deities like Ma Kaali, Ganesh , Durga , Lakshmi ---these are mentioned ? If yes , where ?

I read about stories behind the Shiva linga , Tulsi’s part of becoming worship etc…….failed to understand the morals of those stories . When u have time , can u pl. explain ?



Verses all need ..specially for the life hereafter


Are you not aware that it is God whose limitless glory all [creatures] that are in the heavens and on earth extol, even the birds as they spread out their wings?


Each knows indeed how to pray unto Him and to glorify Him;

and God has full knowledge of all that they do

-Quran (24:41)

[Sarada]

Peace Sarada,

I hope everyone appreciates your response as much as me, good work :thumbs_up

I have found this somewhere on the web regarding the rights of Hindu woman, is it true?

Namaste and Salaam Slave of Allah,
Most of the regulations that you quote come from the Vishnu and Manu Smrtis. Not all of them are supported by the Vedas, which are the ultimate authority on Hinduism

1. The Hindu Woman has no right to divorce her husband.

There are many circumstances under which a woman may divorce her husband, among them cruelty, desertion, etc.

2. She has no property or inheritance rights.

Property rights and inheritance rights of a hindu woman are not clear. The Indian Government is preparing a legal code to establish equal property and inheritance rights among men and women.

3. Choice of partner is limited because she can only marry within her own caste; moreover her horoscope must match that of the intending bridegroom/family.

As I have said before, caste in our religion is not hereditary, that is a cultural construct. In Indian law, any two Hindus are allowed to marry regardless of caste. There are many love matches these days. We do believe in the mathematical science of astrology, and often consult a competent astologer on various issues, including marriage.

5. If her husband dies she should commit Sati (being cremated with her dead husband). Since today's law forbids Sati, society mainly punishes her in other "holy" ways (see below).

Sati is an outdated custom that was never part of our scriptures. In fact here is a verse from the Rig Veda:

Rise, come unto the world of life, O woman — come, he is lifeless by whose side thou liest. Wifehood with this thy husband was thy portion, who took thy hand and wooed thee as a lover.

HInduism has been around for at least 5,000 years, some scholars say 10,000. It is only in the last 1500 or so years that it has been practised. Here is a link to the Wikepedia discussion on that subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suttee

6. She cannot remarry.

It is true that we believe that when you marry, you are bound together for 7 lifetimes. Previously married Hindu women in general are expected to remain celibate. However, there are exceptions, and allowances can be made for circumstances.

7. The widow is considered to be a curse and must not be seen in public.She cannot wear jewelry or colorful clothes. (She should not even take part in her children's marriage!)

The plight of Hindu widows is often sad. However, that, too is changing. Although it is true that many widows wear simple, white clothing, others dress the same as any other woman. A no longer married woman, however, obviously cannot wear the sindur in the part of her hair to indicate that she is married. I personally know of several widows who come to our temple. They are happy, outgoing women, who spend a lot of their time on selfless service to the temple, helping to cook the food and taking an active part in our worship by singing hymns. Their children love and respect these mothers as much as those whose fathers are still alive.

One thing I would like to say is that Hindus here in Canada abide by the secular civil code in this country.

Further more, where traditonal cultural practices are seen as unjust, reforms are made to correct the situation. Hindu practices are very adaptable to new concepts, and we try to incorporate the best of them within the broad spectrum that is our religion.

If you look back in world history, women have often had fewer rights than men, gradually, this is changing.

One more thing that I must add, is that Hindus are monogamous. Each man can only have one wife. That has been the ideal since Sri Ram married Sita, and promised her that he would take no other wives.

All the best,

Sarada

[Sarada]

[quore]interesting - thanks.
must you have a guru to be a hindu?
i ask because there is a kali temple here in california and they do not have a guru. they have monthly ceremony and an annual puja where the pujari from the kali temple in dhakshineshwar(spelling?) in calcutta comes and officiates. i've attended a few because my godson is what i would call a new age type hindu - so i've gone with him.
it was really cool - non-stop music, food - lots of singing and clapping. no preaching. the followers were a mixture of indians and westerners. no one even asked me if i was hindu or not. there was one part where the people went up to the pujari with a basket and bowed to kali. i didn't participate in that part and there was absolutely no pressure on me to do so - in fact, i don't think anyone even noticed! i enjoyed it very much.
i've also attended (with him) some satsangs of siddha yoga. they do have a guru. it was also a mixture of indians and westerners. it was interesting but nearly as much spirit as the kali puja people - a totally different atmosphere.[/quote]

The short answer to your question. Snakelegs, is that you do not need a guru to become a Hindu. Studying and learning on one's own is also possible. However, the right guru can guide you more quickly along the path. Beware of false gurus, there are many.

There is no pressure, and few thou shalts in Hinduism. Most of it is guidelines. The choice is always yours to make. The thing, is eventually, either in this life, or in a next life, you will reap the consequences of your accumulated actions. Karma in a simple sense, is the Law of Cause and Effect. So we do not worry so much about what someone else does, that will be taken care of. We have enough to deal with in behaving righteously ourselves.

Kali worship is greatly misunderstood here in the West. Kali is the aspect of God which we call upon to help rid us of our negative tendencies.

I have heard of the Kali Temple in California. Their guru is Sri Ramakrishna. It is supported by the Sri Ramakrishna Order of Calcutta, and was founded with their blessings by Elizabeth U. Harding. She also wrote a very informative book called, "Kali, the Black Goddess of Dakshineshwar". I found it very informative, and inspiring, to say the least.

It cofirmed my decision to become a Hindu, after having been involved in Hinduism for years before.

The Siddha yoga swamis have written some very scholarly books, one of them is translation of Jnaneshwar's rendering of the Bhagavad Gita. But be careful, there is a great deal of controversy surrounding Guru Mayi Chidvilasananda, and her twin brother. Also, the devotees practice a very Westernized, diluted form of Hinduism. It was my first introduction, but I have long since outgrown it. My sister-in-law, however, is still an active member, and I respect her right to choose.

All the Best,

Sarada
__________________

[Sarada]

I never thought of this before, but your post brought it to my mind. If the special honor given a cow is because of its ability to give milk that is second only to our mother's milk, do Hindus reserve this special status only for the female of the bovine species or are bulls and steers also given this special status?

No both genders are given equal respect. How can you have more cows, if you don't have any bulls? :giggling: There is no need for steers, since we do not eat beef.

In fact, Nandi, the bull is often pictured with Lord Shiva.

[Sarada]

Namaste sarada! -
I have one simple question.. What was the original name for Hinduism, and what does it mean? Like I know that many Hinduism is called different names by different people. So what was the first? And was it perscribed in the Veda's, or any Hindui texts? If so, what does it mean?
Thanks!



The caste system has been answered a thousands times. Perhaps you should read this thread before asking! :)

Thanks for the supporting message re the caste system, ThirdWatch.

Hindu comes from the word Sindhu, which refers to Sind, an area that is now partially in Pakistan.

The correct name for Hinduism is Sanatana Vedic Dharma which translates as Eternal Vedic Religion (religion, righteousness, duty - Dharma is a Sanskrit words with a many faceted meaning)

All the Best,

Sarada

[Sarada]

Wow! What a great thread! Thanks!

Why not honor goats, and other female animals who also give drinkable (even by humans, such as the aforementioned goat) milk?

Do you know of any online videos of rituals? The one you mentioned with the flowers and whatnot sounded really lovely.

Is Hindu worship a private devotion thing, are there special congregations, or what?

It's really interesting how Buddhism and Hinduism believe that all paths lead to God, even other religions. As a Christian, I can't seem to wrap my mind around that.

If one is reborn a tree, dog, etc., how can one become human again for "another chance"? And if reincarnation were the case, then how does the population continually increase more than ever before? Are there a finite number of spirits (or souls, what do you call them?), or does God (which is also in everything such as trees and rocks, what about a computer since the computer had to have God-created things to be made?) continually make souls?

Thanks

Thanks Trumble,for answering the one about Buddhism.

Namaste, Justin.

Have you ever tasted unfiltered goatsmilk?. In places where the cows can be raised successfully, I assure you, that you would much prefer to drink cow's milk. :giggling:

Indian cows have a hump which helps them survive the climatic extremes.

I will try to find an online video for you. When I find one, I will post the link.

Hindu worship can be a "private devotion thing" or it can take place in a temple.

Yes, Hindus do believe that all paths eventually lead to God. When I was a Christian, since I was a child, I had trouble wrapoing my head around believing the Christ was the ONLY way to salvation.


If you observe animal behaviour, you will notice that some have a more congenial temperament than others of the same species. The merit they earn by their actions will cause them to eventually become reborn as humans. (Do not ask me about the hierarchy of one species of animal over another, I know of no such classification in Hinduism)

I'm not sure about the number of souls, but, you may notice, that, as our human population continues to grow, other species die out.

We call the soul the atma. We are the atma, or spiritual being, living inside this material body. One of the names of God is Paramatma, or Supreme Soul. When we have gained enough "brownie points" so to speak, or when our good and bad actions (karma) have been balanced out, we will no longer have to be reborn. At that point we merge and become one with God, the Paramatma.

I don't quite understand your reference to computers.

All the Best,

Sarada

[Sarada]

Salaam/peace;





i guess , many of us would love to hear her revert story . So sis , if u decide to share ur story , if possible post it here .

thanks for giving us a chance to ask about ur new religion . Don't get tired or upset +o( .....many things to ask :D ----no intention to iritate u :p



Sarada : We use pictures and statues to help us focus on a particular aspect of God.



--- ur holy books allow it?




May be , u r just bowing down to them but not worshipping these idols but .... On basis of which holy books , Hindus are making statues of these deities ??




Can u give me some verses those support these methods ?

I m asking again , in the most holies books of Hindus such as Veda or Geeta ----names of other deities like Ma Kaali, Ganesh , Durga , Lakshmi ---these are mentioned ? If yes , where ?

I read about stories behind the Shiva linga , Tulsi’s part of becoming worship etc…….failed to understand the morals of those stories . When u have time , can u pl. explain ?



Verses all need ..specially for the life hereafter


Are you not aware that it is God whose limitless glory all [creatures] that are in the heavens and on earth extol, even the birds as they spread out their wings?


Each knows indeed how to pray unto Him and to glorify Him;

and God has full knowledge of all that they do

-Quran (24:41)

As Salamm Aleikum, and Namaste, Sister Muslim Woman,

I will post the story of my change in religions at a later time.


"Are you not aware that it is God whose limitless glory all [creatures] that are in the heavens and on earth extol, even the birds as they spread out their wings?

Each knows indeed how to pray unto Him and to glorify Him;
and God has full knowledge of all that they do"

That is a beautiful quotation. Since birds and all creatures, because of their limitations cannot worship as we do; I interpret this to mean that every creature, human, or otherwise, that worships, extols and glorifies God according to his/her own understanding is acceptable to God.

Hindus have many scriptures telling the stories of many of the aspects of God. Many people read them and take them literaly, but they are actually symbolic. The symbolism has mainly layers, and each person understands these scriptures according to his/her own level of ability.

I will not explain yet again how we view the different aspects of God, and what the purpose of pictures and statues is. You can read my previous posts.

I will, however, dedicate a post specifically to the lingam, a much misunderstood symbol, here in the west, and also, it seems, by many ill-informed, western influenced Hindus. Suffice it to say for now, that it is NOT a phallic symbol.

I appreciate your interest, Muslim Woman, how is it that you know so much about Hinduism?

All the Best,

Sarada

[Sarada]

Namaste, Sisters and Brothers,

Here is a link to a very short clip showing a puja

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GAPPJIX1ZFA


All the Best,

Sarada

[snakelegs]

The short answer to your question. Snakelegs, is that you do not need a guru to become a Hindu. Studying and learning on one's own is also possible. However, the right guru can guide you more quickly along the path. Beware of false gurus, there are many.

personally, i am not seeking a religion, but i find them all interesting.

There is no pressure, and few thou shalts in Hinduism. Most of it is guidelines. The choice is always yours to make. The thing, is eventually, either in this life, or in a next life, you will reap the consequences of your accumulated actions. Karma in a simple sense, is the Law of Cause and Effect. So we do not worry so much about what someone else does, that will be taken care of. We have enough to deal with in behaving righteously ourselves.

this is cool. i think too many people do god's work for him.
and i think you do have a lot less rules, but obviously you have a few - as you mentioned earlier for example - women are not supposed to remarry.

Kali worship is greatly misunderstood here in the West. Kali is the aspect of God which we call upon to help rid us of our negative tendencies.

I have heard of the Kali Temple in California. Their guru is Sri Ramakrishna. It is supported by the Sri Ramakrishna Order of Calcutta, and was founded with their blessings by Elizabeth U. Harding. She also wrote a very informative book called, "Kali, the Black Goddess of Dakshineshwar". I found it very informative, and inspiring, to say the least.

It cofirmed my decision to become a Hindu, after having been involved in Hinduism for years before.


yes. it's in laguna beach. elizabeth ("usha") is always there.
the thing about shri ramakrishna is that he is dead. so it is not quite the same as having a living guru. and yes, you're right, they had his picture and also his wife's picture as well.

The Siddha yoga swamis have written some very scholarly books, one of them is translation of Jnaneshwar's rendering of the Bhagavad Gita. But be careful, there is a great deal of controversy surrounding Guru Mayi Chidvilasananda, and her twin brother. Also, the devotees practice a very Westernized, diluted form of Hinduism. It was my first introduction, but I have long since outgrown it. My sister-in-law, however, is still an active member, and I respect her right to choose.

your take on siddha yoga is the same as mine. it seemed very shallow to me, and i thought it was quite classist as well. i felt very little spirit there. they also go in for preaching. i also thought the attitude toward the guru was superficial. anyway, that's how it seemed to me.
my godson was going to check out the brother, but i don't think it ever happened.
All the Best,

Sarada
__________________

shanti.
p.s. i also enjoy a good kirtanwallah now and then.

[Sarada]

I apologize if you got the impression that I was giving you personally instructions on finding a guru. I meant it as a general comment only.

We do not necessarily require a living guru. The words of a guru who during his lifetime was knowledgeable, lived the life, and had the wisdom, are more powerful than that of an inadequate living guru. The Sikhs, for example, have Guru Granth Sahib.

As for Hindu music, I like the traditional bhajans that use the ragas of North India. Bengali music is also nice, but a little different. I don't have much use for many of the New Age interpretations, although there are a couple of Western artists who remain true to tradition.

[north_malaysian]

Are there differences of Hindu rituals between North Indians and South Indians?

[Sarada]

(deleted duplicate)

[Sarada]

Are there differences of Hindu rituals between North Indians and South Indians?

There are as many differences in rituals across India as there are curry masala ingredients. But like curry masala, the rituals are still recognizable, and contain the same basic elements. It's more a matter of style.

[snakelegs]

I apologize if you got the impression that I was giving you personally instructions on finding a guru. I meant it as a general comment only.
no problem.
We do not necessarily require a living guru. The words of a guru who during his lifetime was knowledgeable, lived the life, and had the wisdom, are more powerful than that of an inadequate living guru. The Sikhs, for example, have Guru Granth Sahib.

makes sense!

As for Hindu music, I like the traditional bhajans that use the ragas of North India. Bengali music is also nice, but a little different. I don't have much use for many of the New Age interpretations, although there are a couple of Western artists who remain true to tradition.

i don't like any new age stuff.
but you're right - there are a few westerners who are pretty good.
hindustani classical music is my favourite music and my mostest favouritest is qawwali. (all of nusrat fateh ali khan's qawwalis are based on classical raags.)
as for sikh devotional music (gurbani), sikhnet.com is a good source to listen. they have both traditional and new age.
the sikh music is different than bhajans and different from qawwali. i find it is also very spiritual and grounding. music is extremely important in sikhism.
bhajans i only really like if i'm there in person.
well, i've gone on quite a bit! probably everyone's falling asleep.

[Sarada]

As Salaam Aleikum and Namaste Sisters and Brothers.

You may have started to notice some basic differences between Hinduism and the approach of Abrahamic religions.

I'm going to do a little point-counter-point to outline some of them:


1. Abrahamic religions believe in the concept of One God, formless, and indivisible,

1. Hinduism, believes in One God, many aspects and forms, including the indivisible,formless aspect.

2. Abrahamic religions believe that their specific belief is the only one that will grant you salvation (whilst having varying degrees of respect for their sister religions)

2. Hindus believe in One God, many paths. That all religions will eventually lead to to salvation.

3. Abrahamic religions are legalistic in nature, setting up a code of thou shalts and thou shalts not.

3. Hinduism leads by example, and has guidelines for people to follow. For example, the Ramayan is an epic poem, one of the purposes of which is for Ram and Sita to set an example of the ideal behaviour of men and women.

4. In Abrahamic religions, everything belongs to God.

4. In Hinduism, everything is God.

5. In general, Abrahamic religions believe in one physical existence here on earth, and then an after life based on the moral behaviour of the individual, except of course, Christianity, which also believes in salvation through Christ.

5. Hinduism believes in reincarnation and karma. That the soul must constantly be reborn until it has erased all of its bad actions by doing good actions. At that point it no longer has to be reborn, but has the option of merging with God, or taking a physical birth again to continue practicing devotion to God. (this is similar to Buddhism, but there are differences, which I believe Trumble has already addressed in his thread).

6. In general Abrahamic religions believe that humans HAVE a soul.

6. Hindus believe that I AM the soul.

7. Abrahamic religions believe in the reality of the physical world.

7. Hindus believe that the material world is not always what it appears to be.
We equate reality with permanance. What is permanent is real, what is not permanent is unreal. The atma or soul is real, the Paramatma, or Supreme Soul is real. Everything else changes, therefore cannot be relied upon as real.

For example, we come into this world as babies, then our bodies start to age, and eventually, the (unreal) physical body decays and is destroyed.
The (real) atma remains the same from birth to death to birth.

The concept of the unreality of the physical world is called Maya, or illusion, because nothing remains the same, and often what we percieve is clouded by our own biases and perspective in addition to the limitations of our senses.

( This does not mean, that when we stub our toe against a rock, we don't feel the pain :giggling: )


8. Abrahamic religions are "dual" in nature. There is good and evil. God is good, Satan is evil. This leads to the conclusion that something must be "either this or that".

8. Hinduism is "non-dual" or "monistic" in nature (all though there is a school of thought which embraces a form of dualism) Since everything is God, that includes the pairs of opposites. To illustrate my point, here is the famous Taoist symbol representing Yin and Yang. Taoism and Hinduism embrace the concept of "both" "and" as well as "either" "or"

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh


(May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

how is it that you know so much about Hinduism?

Lol ….boasting :p



:okay:



In my country , a Hindu Bhramman became Muslim & wrote a book …why I embraced Islam?





If u want , I can translate few lines where he described what he found disturbing in his previous religion.


I read that book & naturally many questions came in to mind .






That’s why I request u to have patience & pl. don’t think I have any intention to hurt ur feelings .

I found that book very informative about hindu religion .



It is written by not only a higher class hindu who had permission to read his holy books in Sanskrit that lower class hindus were deprived from …he, his dad ,uncle were also purohits ( don’t know the Eng . word…who leads the puja/ worship )



While reading the book , One question came in to mind : do Hindus know the stories of Hindu deities / history behind the rituals ?

…..a very informative book called, "Kali, the Black Goddess of Dakshineshwar

--An Indian Hindu writer most probably Sunil Ganguly wrote in his book that Ma Kali does not wear any dress .…
why is that ?

There are many circumstances under which a woman may divorce her husband, among them cruelty, desertion, etc.

Are u talking about Hindu religious law or today’s men made law ?





If Hindu religion allows divorce , then why in the past ( say even under British rule ) in India subcontinent , women were not allowed to divorce ?

I m almost 100 % sure that in Bangladesh where Hindus are about 10 % , still Hindus women can’t divorce ….most probably men also can’t as it’s now allowed in religion….as least that what I heard.





In India , I think divorce law introduced only 15 to 2o yrs back.

The Indian Government is preparing a legal code to establish equal property and inheritance rights among men and women.

I think , about 5 yrs back , India has introduced equal rights of sons & daughters in dad’s property.





But if hindus holy books don’t give equal rights to daughter , will it be ok for a religious hindu woman get the property ???




What’s ur opinion as a devoted Hindu ?

you are bound together for 7 lifetimes.

---does it mean Hindus believe in 7 lives in this world ?

Hindus are monogamous. Each man can only have one wife

---but is there any verse in Hindu scripture that says so ?





I read in some novels of Indian writer …Sharot chandro Chatterjee . He mentioned that Brhamman normally married as many as they wished . They needed to keep diary to remember where their in-laws houses are ?





Most probably it was Dad of Lord Rama who had minimum 10 , ooo wives .





Eshwar Chandro Biddha Sagar’s Guru had many wives including very young one.







At that time , Hindus believe if a girl becomes woman at her father’s res , the whole family including dead relatives will go to hell. Is that really mentioned in ur holy book ?





If yes , how come young marriage is prohibited by man made law now ?





Do Hindus believe laws described in holy books can change from time to time ????



Hope I have not irritated u much :hiding:





U wrote about the Quranic verse that : I interpret this to mean that every creature, human, or otherwise, that worships, extols and glorifies God according to his/her own understanding is acceptable to God.


Most probably , God showed /taught all creatures how to pray .



If u are interested , then I will InshaAllah try to find the explanation & will post that in things in Islam I m curious about thread.

Best wishes to u .


Verses all need ..specially for the life hereafter :happy:









Behold, We have willed that all beauty on earth be a means by which We put men to a test,


which of them are best in conduct;



and, verily, We shall reduce all that is on it to barren dust!

-Quran (18:7-8)

[Sarada]

Salaam and Namaste, Muslim Woman,

I am happy that you have found what you are looking for in Islam. May Bhagwan continue to shower you with his choicest blessings. May Bhagwan also continue to bless the Brahmin who chose to revert to Islam.


I do not, however, care to read any excerpts of his book.

This thread is called "Questions about Hinduism answered by a Hindu"


Hinduism is not Islam. It is only natural, that as a Muslim believer, you will find some Hindu beliefs and traditions that you do not agree with, and perhaps even find objectionable. If you wish a comparison of Hinduism and Islam from an Islamic perspective, I would respectfully advise you to refer to Dr. Zakir Naik's dvd of the debate between him and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, or check out this link.

http://www.worldmuslimmedia.com/readislam/zakir/

[Sarada]

Here is another link from Dr Zakir Naik

Similarities between Hinduism and Islam.

http://www.islamawareness.net/Hindui...aik/part1.html

[Sarada]

Regarding Monogamy, polygamy was a cultural expression. I know of no living Hindus who have more than one wife or husband.

As I explained in a previous post, Ram promised Sita that he would only have one wife. At the moment, I cannot find the specific verse.

[Sarada]

As Salaam Alleikum and Namaste Sisters and Brothers,


As I am a Hindu lay person and not a scholar, there are some questions which I am not qualified to answer. Many of these are answered by Subash C. Sharma, at

http://www.geocities.com/lamberdar/author.html

I believe that those of you who would like answers to questions from a Hindu perspective beyond those that I can provide will find his website very informative.

[JustinHesychast]

About reincarnation. You mentioned dogs having different temperaments and whatnot. Well, everything and all the studies (and common sense) shows that the dog behaves that way due to their human owner. Our neighbors have a mean dog because they are mean to it, and it is really sad. Our dog is generally nice and loving, because we did not raise her to be mean. So... I am not understanding how the temperament of a dog or whatever other animal can effect it being reborn into a human.

Does that mean that my dog is a human soul? O_o;;

And how can inanimate objects such as a tree become human again?

What of inanimate object such as trees that are made into logs. Is that soul then split between the logs until it burns or decays? What of edible fruits and vegetables?

Thanks for all the help! :D

[Sarada]

About reincarnation. You mentioned dogs having different temperaments and whatnot. Well, everything and all the studies (and common sense) shows that the dog behaves that way due to their human owner. Our neighbors have a mean dog because they are mean to it, and it is really sad. Our dog is generally nice and loving, because we did not raise her to be mean. So... I am not understanding how the temperament of a dog or whatever other animal can effect it being reborn into a human.

Does that mean that my dog is a human soul? O_o;;

And how can inanimate objects such as a tree become human again?

What of inanimate object such as trees that are made into logs. Is that soul then split between the logs until it burns or decays? What of edible fruits and vegetables?

Thanks for all the help! :D

Namaste and Salaam,

Some things will remain a mystery.


(But, about the dog's temperament, I have two dogs, both are friendly. One is very shy and withdrawn, and the other is tenacious and boisterous.

Go figure.)

[deen_2007]

hmm.....if namaste means...."i bow to god within you" ...then i think i'll be offended if one said that to me....no offense to your religion....but mainly because i do not believe there is god within me.

so had i come accross some1 who said that to me, i wonder if i can say i don't want them to greet me like that....

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

If you wish a comparison of Hinduism and Islam ...

nope .......my 2 main questions are now :


1. do hindus know about the stories of god & goddess / reasons behind the rituals ?


2. Do hindus believe God's laws can change from time to time ?

my apology if u find these questions offensive .

[Sarada]

hmm.....if namaste means...."i bow to god within you" ...then i think i'll be offended if one said that to me....no offense to your religion....but mainly because i do not believe there is god within me.

so had i come accross some1 who said that to me, i wonder if i can say i don't want them to greet me like that....

I will stick to "Salaam" as a greeting on this forum.

[Sarada]

Salaam Muslim Woman,

Salaam/peace;

1. do hindus know about the stories of god & goddess / reasons behind the rituals ?

Every Hindu knows the stories and the reasons behind them according to how much they have studied, and their own level of understanding.

2. Do hindus believe God's laws can change from time to time ?

"God's laws" (your terminology) do not change over time, but human's understanding, interpretation, and implementation of those laws do change, as do cultural/societal practices

[Sarada]

Salaam, Sisters and Brothers,

It seems that by saying "namaste" which means "I bow to God within you" I have offended the sensibilities of some members of this forum. Please accept my apologies for any offense which I may have inadvertantly caused.
Henceforth, I will simply say "Salaam"


I was also not aware that posting pictures of people (myself) and deities (my avatar) was not permissible. These have been removed by the moderator. I have replaced them with pictures of lotuses, which I hope will not offend.

As a Hindu, I am here as a guest on this Islamic Forum. A gracious guest respects the traditions of the host.

I must say that posting on an Islamic forum has been somewhat of a culture shock for me. I am familiar with Christian, secular and Hindu society, but I have a lot to learn about the laws that govern every aspect of a Muslim's life, and how they are translated into action.

But I have been given the rare honour and privilege of observing the Muslim point of view from very close quarters, and I am grateful for the opportunity to answer some of your questions about my (Hindu) point of view.

I hope that we can celebrate the many similarities that we share and not let our differences divide us .

[mujahideenryder]

What do you think about the massacre of Gujarat in the name of Hindusim?
See this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Bkqwzl_Yg

[Woodrow]

Your rep count has just increased for being an understanding and peaceful member.

Disagreements and differences of opinion will exist between people of different faiths, but these differences can be discussed with mutual respect and in peace.

[snakelegs]

Salaam, Sisters and Brothers,

It seems that by saying "namaste" which means "I bow to God within you" I have offended the sensibilities of some members of this forum. Please accept my apologies for any offense which I may have inadvertantly caused.
Henceforth, I will simply say "Salaam"


I was also not aware that posting pictures of people (myself) and deities (my avatar) was not permissible. These have been removed by the moderator. I have replaced them with pictures of lotuses, which I hope will not offend.

As a Hindu, I am here as a guest on this Islamic Forum. A gracious guest respects the traditions of the host.

I must say that posting on an Islamic forum has been somewhat of a culture shock for me. I am familiar with Christian, secular and Hindu society, but I have a lot to learn about the laws that govern every aspect of a Muslim's life, and how they are translated into action.

But I have been given the rare honour and privilege of observing the Muslim point of view from very close quarters, and I am grateful for the opportunity to answer some of your questions about my (Hindu) point of view.

I hope that we can celebrate the many similarities that we share and not let our differences divide us .

:bravo: :thumbs_up

[north_malaysian]

Salaam, Sisters and Brothers,

It seems that by saying "namaste" which means "I bow to God within you" I have offended the sensibilities of some members of this forum. Please accept my apologies for any offense which I may have inadvertantly caused.
Henceforth, I will simply say "Salaam"


I was also not aware that posting pictures of people (myself) and deities (my avatar) was not permissible. These have been removed by the moderator. I have replaced them with pictures of lotuses, which I hope will not offend.

As a Hindu, I am here as a guest on this Islamic Forum. A gracious guest respects the traditions of the host.

I must say that posting on an Islamic forum has been somewhat of a culture shock for me. I am familiar with Christian, secular and Hindu society, but I have a lot to learn about the laws that govern every aspect of a Muslim's life, and how they are translated into action.

But I have been given the rare honour and privilege of observing the Muslim point of view from very close quarters, and I am grateful for the opportunity to answer some of your questions about my (Hindu) point of view.

I hope that we can celebrate the many similarities that we share and not let our differences divide us .

I have to give you reps for this....

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

Your rep count has just increased for being an understanding and peaceful member.

Disagreements and differences of opinion will exist between people of different faiths, but these differences can be discussed with mutual respect and in peace.

bro , should one be forced to change his/her greetings style just because other participants object ?

In a non-Muslim forum , i greeted them by writing Salaam & translation....one participant objected & but mod said ....it's ok as i m a Muslim.

I think , sis Sarada should be allowed to write Namaste as it's her custom to do so . If we don't feel comfortable , we may just ignore her intro.

[Sarada]

What do you think about the massacre of Gujarat in the name of Hindusim?
See this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Bkqwzl_Yg

Salaam Mujahideenryder,

Shanti, Frieden, Pacem, Peace, Salaam, Shalom, Hasiti, Sidi....

Every language has its word for Peace, and what do we do? As soon as we are offended, many of us seek revenge, or a "restoration of my honour"

I watched the video with horror.

I am with Mahatma Gandhi, who dearly wanted an undivided Mother India who lovingly embraces all of her children.

Many innocent people were killed in a massacre that was ignited by an attack at the Godhra Station on a train, killing Hindu pilgrims coming from the disputed Ram Janmabhoomi Mandir /Babri Masjid in Ayodhya.

I do not want to get into the politics of the matter. The important point is that this dispute was/is being used by unscrupulous fanatical elements on both sides to further their own cause. When we act emotionally, rather than rationally, destruction is the result.

Each side hopes to be the last one standing on the ashes to claim victory. Victory over what? Pilgrims? Women and Children? When we, as rational, compassionate people succumb to our emotions creating a cycle of revenge, those elements who wish to destroy, have won.

I believe that for the most part, Hindus and Muslims get along well in India. I would venture to say, that Hindu-Muslim relations in India are better than in some other countries.

My husband, who is from Guyana, tells me that within the Indian population there, Christian, Muslim and Hindu all celebrate their festivals together. Whether it be Christmas, Diwali, Eid, whatever.

Here in Canada, we have attended readings of the Qu'ran at the home of our Muslim friends. There is always a mixture of Hindus and Muslims enjoying our friend's hospitality together. That is the way it should be.

But there is a simmering undercurrent amongst some Hindus and Muslims. You can even see it here in this forum. It is born of an attitude that must be changed on both sides.

It is an attitude of "us versus them". This attitude needs to be changed to "we are all brothers and sisters" Even on this forum we are labelled as either a brother in Islam or a brother in humanity, why the difference, when we have already stated our religion?

I regard myself as an unqualified, unconditional sister. Tell me how is a sister in Islam different from sister in humanity? I don't care if you are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist we are all the same.

To quote Shakespeare:

"If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? " Is any one of us exempt from that?

The sooner all of us can put our differences aside, the sooner all of this horrible, unnecessary bloodshed will stop.

In the great, grand scheme of things, if you and I are neighbours, and I call out "Hare Ram' and you call out "Allah", what does it really matter, as long as we are respectful, kind and compassionte towards one another? Is that not what religion all about? And why limit it to religion? Do not the Atheists also feel compassion towards their fellows?

[Sarada]

[

Your rep count has just increased for being an understanding and peaceful member.

Disagreements and differences of opinion will exist between people of different faiths, but these differences can be discussed with mutual respect and in peace.

Thank-you, Woodrow.

I believe that we human beings tend to accentuate the "negative" rather than the "positive".

I believe that we all should celebrate our similarities.

I will tell you a little anecdote:

A few years ago, I was alone and far from home, it was Christmas, and having been a Christian in my childhood, and I always have nostalgic feelings around that time.

It was Christmas Eve, the snow was falling gently in flakes as thick as down feathers on the glistening black lake. Beside the lake was a small, white clap-board church with a steeple. A warm glow radiated from the small, arch shaped windows. I walked through the deep, crunchy snow and went inside and sat down...

My peace was broken! There, in front of me, a ritual was taking place which I had never witnessed before.It was being conducted by a Christian sect that I had never heard of. I felt was blasphemous. What should I do? Should I leave? Should I stay?

I chose to stay and study the situation.

My attention drifted to the congregation. It consisted of family groups. Young married couples, the elderly, children, babies. And, as I watched, I became aware of the overwhelming love that they shared.

At the end of the service I left, feeling uneasy about the unconventional ritual, but also feeling the warmth of the love that these people had.

I never went back to that church, but I do not condemn those people for worshipping in a manner to which I was unacustomed.

I decided to leave it up to God to judge their behaviour.

[Woodrow]

:sl:






bro , should one be forced to change his/her greetings style just because other participants object ?

Forced no. However it is legitimate to let a person know if their words cause any unintended discomfort. Each of us is an individual, personally I am hard to be offended by words as I try to find the intent, not the words. Yet, I can understand that words can unintentionally be offensive. I think it was very impressive of Sarada to change her greeting to avoid unintentionally offending anyone.

In a non-Muslim forum , i greeted them by writing Salaam & translation....one participant objected & but mod said ....it's ok as i m a Muslim.

That is true, but would not the better choice be to change the greeting if it offends any person in a house in which you are a guest, as long as it is not requested to be a Haram greeting?

I think , sis Sarada should be allowed to write Namaste as it's her custom to do so . If we don't feel comfortable , we may just ignore her intro.

This is a very difficult judgment call. To do so can easily be viewed as promoting a Religion other than Islam. In a personal conversation with her, I would have no problem with her greeting me in that manner. However, this is an open forum and it is best to avoid misconceptions when possible. I believe she made a very wise personal decision in how best to handle this.

[Sarada]

Salaam, Peace, Frieden, Sisters and Brothers,

Some of you have asked, how it was that I became a Hindu, and am no longer a Christian. It is a story which has a lot of personal elements, and I have to say up front, that for my temperament and level of understanding, the Vedantic school of Hinduism is a good fit. So, you may ask, why do I say that I adhere to Smartism? I will let you know later in this post.

When I was a child in Germany in the early fifties, my mother and my maternal grandmother taught me to say my prayers every night before I went to sleep. My father was an atheist, but he did not object. He even took me to church every Christmas Eve.

When I was a little older, perhaps 8 or 9, I started asking my mother questions such as:

Why must we believe in Original Sin, are newborn babies not innocent?

Why will people who do not believe in Jesus not go to heaven? What if they never heard of Jesus?

Why is Jesus the only way to come to the "Father"

Is Jesus God?

Why are there so many other religions in this world?

Are the people of other religions evil?

My mother would answer these questions from her perspective, in a way that a child could understand.

When I was older, I studied confirmation lessons, and became a confirmed adult member of my church. I taught Sunday school.

But I still had these questions, which the Pastor could never answer to my satisfaction. Almost every Sunday the pastor would give a sermon on the kind of people who will go to hell and why, putting down people of other religions, and even of other sects within Christianity. This "holier than thou" attitude made me feel very uncomfortable, and I drifed away from the church.

Later, on, I joined a more liberal denomination, and became an active member of the choir and the church council. I was happy there, to some extent, but not content.

I studied and researched many different religions, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and I discovered that, at their core, they all contain a kernel of truth. I went to a Zen Buddhist temple and listened to a Catholic priest talk about transcendance, and that, in his view, on the highest spiritual plane, we are all communing with the same entity. ( I think Trumble would say that in his belief there is no such entity :ooh: ).

I thought and contemplated for many years.

Then, one day, while I was at physiotherapy, I asked the therapist how it was the she was always so cheerful, considering some of the tragic events in her life. She invited me to come with her and "chant". That was my practical introduction to Hinduism. I felt at home right away!:)

They quoted from all the scriptures, not only the Hindu ones, no other religion was ever put down. The message was that we should treat everyone with love, and respect, as if they were God. Nobody was judged or condemned.

This particular Hindu group was quite western in some of its approaches. I explored different Hindu organizations, and learned from their teachings. You must remember, I come from a Christian tradition where no pictures of God are permitted. So it took a while for me to come to terms with the pictures and statues.

I am at heart a Vedantist, who believes in the formless aspect of God, and I think that I could feel very at home in an Arya Samaj environment, where they routinely have women as well as men leading the prayers. (I can hear the gasps from some of you, already! :eek: )

Then, I was wondering, where is a white lady going to find a good Hindu husband (question mark) (please excuse the lack of punctuation, my keyboard converter is acting up)
When I met my husband, Ganesh ( who is named after the remover of obstacles) a little voice inside me said: `this is the man` we fell in love, and got married. I was instantly welcomed by his family. Ganesh and his family belong to the Smarta tradition of Hinduism.

Do you remember my earlier post about Hindu monism, how it is inclusive, and embraces `both and`(question mark) A swami at one of the Vedantic organizations that I went to explained that God was both formless and with form. It is up to our level of understanding to how we worship God.

Since Smartism is the tradition of my husband, in the interests of family harmony, to me it was no big deal to worship in the manner of his family.

As I was now on the Hindu path, I thought that I could be a Hindu and a Christian at the same time. However, I eventuall discovered that I could not be a Christian and a Hindu.

While researching Hinduism on the internet, I came across the Himalyan Academy in Hawaii. Their Guru-ji recommended that new Hindus should formally give up their old religious allegiance, and make a firm committment to Hinduism. That made sense to me.

They suggested that one should officially say good- bye. So I went back to the church where I was confirmed, and told them what I was doing. We had a long, civilised discussion on the differnces between Hinduism and Christianity. The pastor eventually said that my new path will surely lead me to Hell. At that point, I said that it is time for us to agree to disagree. He said that I was always welcome to come back, and I thanked him.

So, after that I formally accepted a Guru who, after checking my astological charts, gave me a Hindu name.

And there you have it, my story of how I became a Hindu.

[Sarada]

Salaam, Peace, Shanti, Sisters and Brothers,

Here is a very good explanation of the basics of the Smarta Sect of Hinduism, from the Himalayan Academy


http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archive...ur_sects.shtml

[/What Is the Universalistic Smarta Sect?

Smartism is an ancient brahminical tradition reformed by Shankara in the ninth century. Worshiping six forms of God, this liberal Hindu path is monistic, nonsectarian, meditative and philosophical. Aum.

Adi Sankara lived from 788 to 820 ce, a mere 32 years, yet he gave Hinduism a new liberal denomination Smartism. Here, wearing sacred marks, he holds his writings and is flanked by the six Deities of the Smarta altar: Surya the Sun, Siva, Shakti, Vishnu, Kumaran and Ganesha.

Smarta means a follower of classical smriti, particularly the Dharma Shastras, Puranas and Itihasas. Smartas revere the Vedas and honor the Agamas. Today this faith is synonymous with the teachings of Adi Shankara, the monk-philosopher known as shanmata sthapanacharya, "founder of the six-sect system."

He campaigned India-wide to consolidate the Hindu faiths of his time under the banner of Advaita (non-dual)Vedanta.

To unify the worship, he popularized the ancient Smarta five-Deity altar Ganapati, Surya, Vishnu, Siva and Shakti and added Kumara. From these, devotees may choose their "preferred Deity, " or Ishta Devata. Each God is but a reflection of the one Saguna (formless) Brahman. Shankara organized hundreds of monasteries into a ten-order, dashanami system, which now has five pontifical centers. He wrote profuse commentaries on the Upanishads, Brahma Sutras and Bhagavad Gita.

Sankara proclaimed, "It is the one Reality which appears to our ignorance as a manifold universe of names and forms and changes. Like the gold of which many ornaments are made, it remains in itself unchanged. Such is Brahman, and That art Thou."

[silkworm]

According to Karen Armstrong's latest book called "The Great Transformation", the Aryans who used to live on Russian steppes were the first to bring "Fire Worship" into India as they were worshippers of Indira.

Later, they roamed allover India and according to what I have understood that religion they were practicing was Zoroastrianism and Hinduism, Jainism was born out of it. Upanishads were old zoroastrians scripture formed loose in different times.

[Sarada]

According to Karen Armstrong's latest book called "The Great Transformation", the Aryans who used to live on Russian steppes were the first to bring "Fire Worship" into India as they were worshippers of Indira.

Later, they roamed allover India and according to what I have understood that religion they were practicing was Zoroastrianism and Hinduism, Jainism was born out of it. Upanishads were old zoroastrians scripture formed loose in different times.

Hinduism and Zoroastrianism:Relation between Hinduism and Zoroastrianism
By www. hinduwebsite.com




Hinduism and Zoroastrianism: Hinduism vs Zoroastrianism

The history of Indian thought commences only when the Aryans of Central Asia separated themselves into two groups, the one making through Afghanistan to India and the other spreading over the territory called Iran.

Gilbert Murray



The Avesta is nearer the Veda than the Veda to its own epic Sanskrit.

Dr. Mills



Varuna is the god of sky...He is identical with the Greek Ouranos and the Ahuramazda of the Avesta.

S.Radhakrishnan



Like the Rigvedic Aryans, the ancient Iranians worshipped gods like Mitra, Vayu, Verutraghna. They also wore the sacred thread and worshipped fire. They had a social organization that was in some ways similar to the Vedic occupation based social system.



Zoroastrian religion was practiced mostly in Iran, or the ancient Persia. Its founder Zarathushtra was born in ancient Iran. The ancient Iranians were Aryans and the world Iran is actually a corrupt form of the word Aryan. The Iranian Aryans were cousins of the Indian Aryans and the language spoken by them was similar to Sanskrit in many ways. They came from the same stock and probably might have even lived together for sometime before parting ways.



However apart from these similarities, there was little else common between Zoroastrianism founded by Zarathushtra and the Vedic Religion that took shape in India. Some differences also seemed to have cropped between Zoroastrians and the Vedic people during the later period as is evident from the use of certain epithets which denote some degree of animosity. The Iranian Ahura (God) became the Indian asura (demon) and the Indian devas (gods) became the Iranian equivalent of evil spirits.



Zoroastrianism ended its long hold over Iranians in the seventh century AD, with the invasion of Arab Muslim who defeated the Sassanids and destroyed their empire. Many native Iranians submitted to the invaders and changed their religion to save themselves from further destruction. A few escaped to India and sought asylum in the province of Gujarat from a local ruler. This happened around 700 AD.



In course of time, the Iranians who fled their country and settled in India became famous as Parsees. Today the Parsees are an integral part of India's multi religious and multi ethnic society and though they generally do not mingle much with other communities, they have contributed richly to the heritage of Indian society.



Courtesy to www. hinduwebsite.com


The oldest Upanishad, the Chandyoga, has been dated to about 800 BCE. Vedic culture has been in existence since the 2nd Millenium BCE. Although there may be some smilarities between Zoroastrianism and Hinduism, one did not grow out of the other. They developed in two neighbouring areas, in parallel.

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam Mujahideenryder,

Shanti, Frieden, Pacem, Peace, Salaam, Shalom, Hasiti, Sidi....

Every language has its word for Peace, and what do we do? As soon as we are offended, many of us seek revenge, or a "restoration of my honour"

I watched the video with horror.

I am with Mahatma Gandhi, who dearly wanted an undivided Mother India who lovingly embraces all of her children.

Many innocent people were killed in a massacre that was ignited by an attack at the Godhra Station on a train, killing Hindu pilgrims coming from the disputed Ram Janmabhoomi Mandir /Babri Masjid in Ayodhya.

I do not want to get into the politics of the matter. The important point is that this dispute was/is being used by unscrupulous fanatical elements on both sides to further their own cause. When we act emotionally, rather than rationally, destruction is the result.

Each side hopes to be the last one standing on the ashes to claim victory. Victory over what? Pilgrims? Women and Children? When we, as rational, compassionate people succumb to our emotions creating a cycle of revenge, those elements who wish to destroy, have won.

I believe that for the most part, Hindus and Muslims get along well in India. I would venture to say, that Hindu-Muslim relations in India are better than in some other countries.

My husband, who is from Guyana, tells me that within the Indian population there, Christian, Muslim and Hindu all celebrate their festivals together. Whether it be Christmas, Diwali, Eid, whatever.

Here in Canada, we have attended readings of the Qu'ran at the home of our Muslim friends. There is always a mixture of Hindus and Muslims enjoying our friend's hospitality together. That is the way it should be.

But there is a simmering undercurrent amongst some Hindus and Muslims. You can even see it here in this forum. It is born of an attitude that must be changed on both sides.

It is an attitude of "us versus them". This attitude needs to be changed to "we are all brothers and sisters" Even on this forum we are labelled as either a brother in Islam or a brother in humanity, why the difference, when we have already stated our religion?

I regard myself as an unqualified, unconditional sister. Tell me how is a sister in Islam different from sister in humanity? I don't care if you are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist we are all the same.

To quote Shakespeare:

"If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? " Is any one of us exempt from that?

The sooner all of us can put our differences aside, the sooner all of this horrible, unnecessary bloodshed will stop.

In the great, grand scheme of things, if you and I are neighbours, and I call out "Hare Ram' and you call out "Allah", what does it really matter, as long as we are respectful, kind and compassionte towards one another? Is that not what religion all about? And why limit it to religion? Do not the Atheists also feel compassion towards their fellows?

Greetings sister Saradah,

I agree with all you have written except the last paragraph. And I don't even object to what I preceive as your intent in writing it.

There is much that we as humans do make too much about. We sometimes get offended when no offense was intended, and then we hold it against the other, even though the other person in no wise has tried to harm us. Sadly this is part of human nature and we would all (of every religious background) do better to adopt the attitude that you have suggested.

Yet I cannot agree that it matters not whether one speaks of Hare Ram or Allah or calls out to some other god. This is because I disagree with your view that in the end we are all referring to the same God, just by different names. I agree with what you wrote elsewhere that there is just one supreme diety. But I do not agree that all roads go up the same mountain. I find that not even all roads on the same mountain go to the top. In fact, rarely is that true, usually only one road goes to the very top. So, those who are on other roads need to either merge with the road that does go to the top or realize that they will never reach the top. If our goal is to reach the top, then we need to follow the one who can help us access the top.

Please don't write this off as just more Christian absolutism (either/or) thinking at work. It is that, but I'm hoping I can make a point as to why it is sometimes valid to speak that way. So after all of that, my question is:
Can you see why I might agree that we need to treat all equally as brothers and sisters in humanity and not make distinctions between humankind and yet at the same time disagee and suggest that it does matter whether one calls out to "Hare Ram" and another calls out to "Allah"?

[Sarada]

Greetings sister Saradah,

I agree with all you have written except the last paragraph. And I don't even object to what I preceive as your intent in writing it....

...So after all of that, my question is:
Can you see why I might agree that we need to treat all equally as brothers and sisters in humanity and not make distinctions between humankind and yet at the same time disagee and suggest that it does matter whether one calls out to "Hare Ram" and another calls out to "Allah"?

Yes of course, I am glad that you have seen my point, that we must treat all humankind compassionately and without distinction.

And of course, you have the right to disagree that it matters not which name one calls out to. It matters to me personally too, otherwise I would not have changed religions. The whole religious debate comes down to one issue, the question of who is right.

My point is that in the face of such terrible violence, would you continue to stress the differences and add fuel to the fire of animosity that already exists,

or, would you try to find common ground, and when everyone is calm and rational, have a friendly debate on the aspects of this belief or that( which, by the way, will never be resolved to everyone`s satifaction)

Now matter how many proofs we provide, it comes down to a matter of faith, and no one will personally know the answer until they have given up this body. Is that worth killing and dying for?

[Sarada]

Love thy neighbour

Who is my neighbour,

Only the one who believes as I do, or,

EVERY ONE ON THIS PLANET

[Grace Seeker]

No matter how many proofs we provide, it comes down to a matter of faith, and no one will personally know the answer until they have given up this body. Is that worth killing and dying for (question mark)

Worth killing for? No.

Worth dying for? Yes.

[silkworm]

Worth worshipping.....yeah
Worth respecting.....yeah
So we should bow to God and nobody else??? Not a criticizm just an ideology

[Sarada]

Salaam Sisters and Brothers,

I have posted a question on the thread "Rights of men over their Wives" I wonder if someone would please answer it.

Thanks,

[north_malaysian]

I believe that for the most part, Hindus and Muslims get along well in India. I would venture to say, that Hindu-Muslim relations in India are better than in some other countries.

In Malaysia and Singapore too..

My husband, who is from Guyana, tells me that within the Indian population there, Christian, Muslim and Hindu all celebrate their festivals together. Whether it be Christmas, Diwali, Eid, whatever.

In Malaysia, the Muslims introduced "Open House" concept on Eid where everyone can come regardless of their ethnic or religious groups. Traditionally, we will open our doors from the morning till late night... We would keep away our beef dishes when we serve our Hindu neighbours.

Starting in the 90s the Chinese, Hindus and Christians adapted this concept and Muslims attending their open houses just to eat and chat and would never involved in any religious acts... usually the non-Muslims would be hiring Muslim catering as they know that Muslim would have no problem eating at their open house ...

[Yanal]

Malasiya Dude/Or dudeo (girl) whenever i see your posts almost everything somehow is related to Malasiya you fit your avatar*off topic*

But i can't understand one thing and that is why can't people pm a christian or hindu person and ask them the questions rather than making a whole thread that will have alot of posts do people do this on purpose since brother woodrow did christian and got a good result so is everyone trying to make hit threads(meaning long posts thread) please asnwer JazakAllah Khar in Advance to who does

[snakelegs]

Malasiya Dude/Or dudeo (girl) whenever i see your posts almost everything somehow is related to Malasiya you fit your avatar*off topic*

But i can't understand one thing and that is why can't people pm a christian or hindu person and ask them the questions rather than making a whole thread that will have alot of posts do people do this on purpose since brother woodrow did christian and got a good result so is everyone trying to make hit threads(meaning long posts thread) please asnwer JazakAllah Khar in Advance to who does

you don't find it interesting to learn about how other cultures see things?
i do, and i'm not the only one who does, i'm sure.

[north_malaysian]

Malasiya Dude/Or dudeo (girl) whenever i see your posts almost everything somehow is related to Malasiya you fit your avatar*off topic*

*off topic*

I'm a dude bro!!!:D

Of course it has to be related to Malaysia as I'm from there....

Would you like to see me with posts relating to Zimbabwe or Kiribati?:hiding:

*off topic*

[snakelegs]

namaste,
i have sometimes gotten the impression that hinduism is dualist - spiritual vs. material and there is a tendency to shun the material as being less "real", or less important.
do you think this is due to the hindus i've run in to and limits of their thinking, or would you say that this is a fairly representative hindu belief?

[Woodrow]

Malasiya Dude/Or dudeo (girl) whenever i see your posts almost everything somehow is related to Malasiya you fit your avatar*off topic*

But i can't understand one thing and that is why can't people pm a christian or hindu person and ask them the questions rather than making a whole thread that will have alot of posts do people do this on purpose since brother woodrow did christian and got a good result so is everyone trying to make hit threads(meaning long posts thread) please asnwer JazakAllah Khar in Advance to who does

There are many reasons why topics like this are better suited to be out in the open. One being many new members do not have PM privileges. Another is that in this manner it can be viewed to see if any replies may be misleading or if the poster is simply trying to promote their own religion. It also helps limit intergender PMs and it keeps the PM system from being overused. Plus as snakelegs said many members are interested in learning about other cultures.

The fact that interfaith dialogs can take place, does make this forum unique and does provide an opportunity to clear up misconceptions.

[north_malaysian]

There are many reasons why topics like this are better suited to be out in the open. One being many new members do not have PM privileges. Another is that in this manner it can be viewed to see if any replies may be misleading or if the poster is simply trying to promote their own religion. It also helps limit intergender PMs and it keeps the PM system from being overused. Plus as snakelegs said many members are interested in learning about other cultures.

The fact that interfaith dialogs can take place, does make this forum unique and does provide an opportunity to clear up misconceptions.

:awesome::awesome::awesome:

[Grace Seeker]

But i can't understand one thing and that is why can't people pm a christian or hindu person and ask them the questions rather than making a whole thread that will have alot of posts do people do this on purpose since brother woodrow did christian and got a good result so is everyone trying to make hit threads(meaning long posts thread) please asnwer JazakAllah Khar in Advance to who does

And in this case I can assure that Sarada didn't do it to get credit for anything. What happened is she had made a comment in another thread that I found really interesting. I wanted to follow up by asking her some more questions about Hinduism, but I knew they would be off topic in the other thread, so when I PMed her I not only asked my question, but also asked her if she would mind starting a "Questions about Hinduism" thread. Yes, I could have just PMed her, but for two things. First, at the time of my original question to her, Sarada did not yet have enough posts to answer me by PM. Second, I also thought others might have similar questions and interests to mine. Posting them in one place means Sarada doesn't have to provide the same answer over and over again but can comment on it once for all to read at the same time.

[north_malaysian]

And in this case I can assure that Sarada didn't do it to get credit for anything. What happened is she had made a comment in another thread that I found really interesting. I wanted to follow up by asking her some more questions about Hinduism, but I knew they would be off topic in the other thread, so when I PMed her I not only asked my question, but also asked her if she would mind starting a "Questions about Hinduism" thread. Yes, I could have just PMed her, but for two things. First, at the time of my original question to her, Sarada did not yet have enough posts to answer me by PM. Second, I also thought others might have similar questions and interests to mine. Posting them in one place means Sarada doesn't have to provide the same answer over and over again but can comment on it once for all to read at the same time.

Just look at Question about Judaism answered by a Jew thread... it has like 1000 plus posts.... why? Because we Muslims and Non Muslims have lots of questions about Judaism...

I think the same opportunity should be given to other religious groups...

[Grace Seeker]

In Malaysia, the Muslims introduced "Open House" concept on Eid where everyone can come regardless of their ethnic or religious groups. Traditionally, we will open our doors from the morning till late night... We would keep away our beef dishes when we serve our Hindu neighbours.

An "Open House" that served dishes acceptable to both Muslim and Hindu, interesting. Wouldn't want to be a chicken in that neighborhood. :)

Just look at Question about Judaism answered by a Jew thread... it has like 1000 plus posts.... why? Because we Muslims and Non Muslims have lots of questions about Judaism...

I think the same opportunity should be given to other religious groups...

Obviously, I and lots of other folk here agree with you. Now lets give the thread back to Sarada.


Sarada, as one's karma moves one either higher or lower in a series of reincarnations, do you reach an endpoint in either direction?

[snakelegs]

And in this case I can assure that Sarada didn't do it to get credit for anything. What happened is she had made a comment in another thread that I found really interesting. I wanted to follow up by asking her some more questions about Hinduism, but I knew they would be off topic in the other thread, so when I PMed her I not only asked my question, but also asked her if she would mind starting a "Questions about Hinduism" thread. Yes, I could have just PMed her, but for two things. First, at the time of my original question to her, Sarada did not yet have enough posts to answer me by PM. Second, I also thought others might have similar questions and interests to mine. Posting them in one place means Sarada doesn't have to provide the same answer over and over again but can comment on it once for all to read at the same time.

GS,
i'm really glad you did, because this way we can all learn.

yanal,
you do realize that you can avoid "comparitive religion" section entirely?
if a subject doesn't interest you, just ignore it and be aware that maybe other people are interested.

[Trumble]

But i can't understand one thing and that is why can't people pm a christian or hindu person and ask them the questions rather than making a whole thread that will have alot of posts do people do this on purpose since brother woodrow did christian and got a good result so is everyone trying to make hit threads(meaning long posts thread) please asnwer JazakAllah Khar in Advance to who does

Surely threads like this are the whole point of a 'comparative religion' forum?!!

There are other forums for those who wish to discuss only Islam, or for non-muslims to ask about Islam. And as had been said, visiting 'comparative religion' is optional. If you don't wish to learn about other religions, you can always just not read it.

[north_malaysian]

Surely threads like this are the whole point of a 'comparative religion' forum?!!

There are other forums for those who wish to discuss only Islam, or for non-muslims to ask about Islam. And as had been said, visiting 'comparative religion' is optional. If you don't wish to learn about other religions, you can always just not read it.

Hey... both Sarada and Trumble have lotus on their avatars... I wonder what is the significance of lotus to both Hinduism and Buddhism

[Sarada]

In Malaysia and Singapore too..



In Malaysia, the Muslims introduced "Open House" concept on Eid where everyone can come regardless of their ethnic or religious groups. Traditionally, we will open our doors from the morning till late night... We would keep away our beef dishes when we serve our Hindu neighbours.

Starting in the 90s the Chinese, Hindus and Christians adapted this concept and Muslims attending their open houses just to eat and chat and would never involved in any religious acts... usually the non-Muslims would be hiring Muslim catering as they know that Muslim would have no problem eating at their open house ...

Salaam, Peace, Shanti North Malaysian,

I think that's wonderful, Malaysian! If we all got together like that, there would be a lot more understanding and a lot less animosisty.

[Sarada]

Salaam, Peace, Shanti Yanal,

Malasiya Dude/Or dudeo (girl) whenever i see your posts almost everything somehow is related to Malasiya you fit your avatar*off topic*

I for one am very interested in learning about the customs in other parts of the world, and am grateful to have the opportunity to read Malaysia's posts.

There is no one forcing you to read them.

But i can't understand one thing and that is why can't people pm a christian or hindu person and ask them the questions rather than making a whole thread that will have alot of posts do people do this on purpose since brother woodrow did christian and got a good result so is everyone trying to make hit threads(meaning long posts thread) please asnwer JazakAllah Khar in Advance to who does

I was asked to start this thread. On any forum that I have been, there have been topics and threads which do not interest me, so I ignore them. Again, if this doesn't interest you, then just don't bother with it.

If you are suggesting that this forum avoid posts about any religion other than Islam, then I would feel sorry for you that you have such a narrow outlook. Any one who truly believes in their own faith will not feel threatened by an explanation of someone else's beliefs.

[Sarada]

namaste,
i have sometimes gotten the impression that hinduism is dualist - spiritual vs. material and there is a tendency to shun the material as being less "real", or less important.
do you think this is due to the hindus i've run in to and limits of their thinking, or would you say that this is a fairly representative hindu belief?

Salaam, Peace, Shanti Snakelegs,

I would say that the Hindu approach to life is generally more spiritual than material compared to the Judeo/Christian approach here in the west. You can see the evidence in the way each society has evolved. The majority of the technological advances in the last few centuries have their origin in the West. That is not to say, that we shun the material world the way the Amish do. However, our focus and main goal in life is to attain union with God.

The material world is transitory. We know that whatever we have today, can be gone tomorrow. We do not "own" anything, in the sense that we have complete control over it. Our goal is non-attachment to material things.
For us, this perspective is comforting when a tragedy or mishap occurs. We have already prepared ourselves mentally to accept that both happiness and sorrow are fleeting.


The four aims of a Hindu are:

1. Dharma (righteousness), To strive to do our duty with love and devotion
and without attachment to the outcome.

2. Artha (wealth), To have enough wealth to be comfortable, and to help others.

4. Kama (desire), To enjoy the pleasures of the senses, but not be attached to them, for they are fleeting.

4. Moksha (salvation or liberation)., To gain liberation from the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth, and attain union with God.



We do not value poverty for its own sake. Indeed many Hindus are wealthy, and we value wealth for the sake of enjoyment and for giving us the power to help others. We respect those who have chosen to use their wealth to follow a spiritual path.

For example, my Guru was a very astute real estate investor, and is now quite comfortable financially. He lives in a large house in a very good neighbourhood. He has now set himself up so that the can maintain this lifestyle from the income from his investments, and basically retire from active business life. He devotes is time to help people in need, visit them in hospitals and jails, give advice on spiritual and relationship issues, and perform rituals in the temple and at people's homes.

Is this duality? Perhaps.

But when I speak of duality, an non-duality, I mean basically, that a "dual philosophy" holds that good and evil come from different sources, and a "non-dual philosophy" holds that everything comes for the same source.

[Sarada]

There are many reasons why topics like this are better suited to be out in the open. One being many new members do not have PM privileges. Another is that in this manner it can be viewed to see if any replies may be misleading or if the poster is simply trying to promote their own religion. It also helps limit intergender PMs and it keeps the PM system from being overused. Plus as snakelegs said many members are interested in learning about other cultures.

The fact that interfaith dialogs can take place, does make this forum unique and does provide an opportunity to clear up misconceptions.

Salaam, Peace, Shanti, Woodrow,

I applaud your answer :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:

[Sarada]

And in this case I can assure that Sarada didn't do it to get credit for anything. What happened is she had made a comment in another thread that I found really interesting. I wanted to follow up by asking her some more questions about Hinduism, but I knew they would be off topic in the other thread, so when I PMed her I not only asked my question, but also asked her if she would mind starting a "Questions about Hinduism" thread. Yes, I could have just PMed her, but for two things. First, at the time of my original question to her, Sarada did not yet have enough posts to answer me by PM. Second, I also thought others might have similar questions and interests to mine. Posting them in one place means Sarada doesn't have to provide the same answer over and over again but can comment on it once for all to read at the same time.

:rock:

[Sarada]

Hey... both Sarada and Trumble have lotus on their avatars... I wonder what is the significance of lotus to both Hinduism and Buddhism

Salaam, Peace, Shanti, North Malaysian,

The lotus in Hinduism is a symbol with many layers. It's leaves are a resting place for creatures such as frogs and turtles. Its roots are nutritious, we use its leaves as "paper" plates. We sometimes serve our food on them after a religious worship ritual is completed. It is difficult and dangerous to harvest, since you have to wade into the swamp where crocodiles, leeches and poisonous water snakes may be lurking.

Although the lotus is rooted in the filthiest muck, it rises above the water in splendorous beauty and purity. It beauty is so pure, that even droplets of water will roll off its petals or leaves.

It represents our goal, to rise from the quagmire of mundane existence and achieve perfection by merging with God. We, too can be like the lotus which has arisen from the filth to achieve purity.

Lakshmi Mata, the consort of Lord Vishnu, and the representation of prosperity and domestic bliss, is said to have arisen into this world on a lotus.

[Sarada]

Sarada, as one's karma moves one either higher or lower in a series of reincarnations, do you reach an endpoint in either direction?

Salaam, Peace, Shanti, Grace Seeker,

I don't know what the lowest lifeform is that a soul can reach, Hinduism focuses on the positive, and avoids lingering over negative thoughts. The highest life form is considered to be that of a human being. Only as a human being can you attain moksha, or liberation from the cycle of birth, death and rebirth, which is the realm of suffering.

[InToTheRain]

Hi Sarada,

I am still confused about the caste system because I have heard it is Hereditary and it is part of the Religion. I have read in this site about it:

Hindu Caste System

[PIE]How the Caste System was Enforced
The caste system was enforced with the help of law books such as Manusmriti and the support of kings who considered themselves as upholders of dharma. The force of tradition, superstition, religious beliefs, fear of punishment also played an important role in its success. Some of these factors are explained in detail.

Heredity. The caste system was based on birth. People inherited caste from their parents and passed it on to their children. Individuals had no right to change their caste as long as they practiced the vedic religion. But they could be excommunicated from the caste by the kings or the local administrators or village heads in case of serious transgression. In case of inter caste marriages which were rare, children inherited the castes of their fathers.

Caste Rules. The caste rules were enforced strictly through the fear of political and religious authority. The success of the system depended upon the performance of duties prescribed for each caste. The rules varied from caste to caste. People of higher castes enjoyed privileges but were also expected to be good role models. For a Brahmin study of the Vedas, practice of rituals and leading a pure and austere life were a must. Otherwise he was considered to be equal to a sudra in the eyes of his fellow caste members. 1 Women were expected to assist their husbands in observing the caste rules. Purification ceremonies, fines and minor punishments were prescribed to annul the negative effect of violating caste rules.

Marriage. The caste system prohibited marriages outside one's caste to avoid inter mixture of the castes (varna samkaram), which was considered to be a sign of decline of dharma and the very reason why the caste system was devised. The law books allowed certain types of inter-caste marriages as an exception rather than rule. Marriages between a higher caste men and lower caste women were less objectionable than Marriages between sudra males and higher caste females and marriages between men of upper castes and sudra women. 2

Preferential treatment: The three upper castes enjoyed distinct advantages in society compared to the sudras whose job was to serve the three upper castes and live like fourth class citizens.3 People born in the three upper castes were given initiation into the study of the Vedas and treated as twice born, while sudras were not allowed to study or even hear the Vedas. They were treated on par with animals and considered once borne. The brahmins enjoyed the highest status and privileges followed by the kshatriyas, the vaisyas and the sudras in the same order. The laws were discriminatory in matters of rewards and punishments. The prescribed lighter punishments for higher castes than the lower castes who had technically little recourse against the former in criminal cases. For the same committed, a lower caste person might attract physical torture, slavery or death penalty while a higher caste person might get away with a simple fine or chastisement or purification ceremony. The lower caste persons were also not allowed to act as witnesses or sit in judgment against higher castes.

Royal Support: The caste system was preserved and enforced mostly through royal support. The relationship between the priestly class and the warrior class was one of convenience. The kings took upon themselves the tasks of protecting the caste system and preventing caste intermixture while the priests performed sacrificial ceremonies and purifications ceremonies seeking the welfare of the king and a place for him in heavens. The scriptures proclaimed the king as a god in human form and protector and preserver of castes and caste order 4. The very notion of punishment was a created by God and given to the kings upon earth to help them destroy evil and keep men on the path of dharma 5. The scriptures suggested that a king should start his day by worshipping three Brahmins on waking up and follow their advice with humility and modesty. He should also appoint a Brahman to the position of a chief minister with and deliberate with him on the most important affairs concerning royal policy.

Footnotes
1. A twice-born man who knowingly eats mushrooms, a village-pig, garlic, a village-cock, onions, or leeks, will become an outcast. (5:14)

A Brahmana who neither performs austerities nor studies the Veda, yet delights in accepting gifts, sinks with the (donor into hell), just as (he who attempts to cross over in) a boat made of stone (is submerged) in the water. (4.190)

2. A Brahmana who takes a Sudra wife to his bed, will (after death) sink into hell; if he begets a child by her, he will lose the rank of a Brahmana. (Manusmriti: Ch3:17)

3. Let (the first part of) a Brahmana's name (denote something) auspicious, a Kshatriya's be connected with power, and a Vaisya's with wealth, but a Sudra's (express something) contemptible. (Manusmriti: Ch2:31)

4. Manusmriti Chapter 7:35

5. Manusmriti Chapter 7:14
[/PIE]

Also I have read here:

http://www.thenagain.info/Classes/Sources/RigVeda.html

[PIE]From that great general sacrifice, Richas and Samahymns [13] were born:
Therefrom the metres were produced, the Yajus [14] had its birth from it.
From it were horses born, from it all creatures with two rows of teeth:
From it were generated kine, from it the goats and sheep were born.
When they divided Purusha how many portions did they make?
What do they call his mouth, his arms? What do they call his thighs and feet?
The Brahmin [15] was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya [16] made.
His thighs became the Vaisya [17], from his feet the Sudra [18] was produced.
[/PIE]

We see that for example the Brahmin come from the mouth and we can deduce that it is not something one acquires but is gifted with. Therefore it is rational to assume that it is inherent and not a status to be achieved through actions etc.

I get the impression that the caste system is part of Hinduism and is hereditary, but It is becoming less and less important as people move away from Hinduism and their religion in general and start to embrace the influence of the west.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood or have missed something and thanks in advance for clarifying this for me.

[Sarada]

Salaam, Peace, and Shanti, Slave of Allah,

I agree with you that the caste system is abhorrent. I will also stick to my position that it is a cultural perversion of Hinduism, and cannot be traced back to the Vedas, which are the ultimate and finally authority when later and lesser scriptures disagree. You are quoting from a much later document, the Manu Smrti.

Your quotations from the Rig Veda regarding the Varnas do not refer to any birthright. They refer to the various functions that these groups perfom in society , i.e. Brahmins are the mouth because they are priests and teachers. The caste system has been a part of Indian culture for many hundreds of years, and may seem to be an integral part of the religion, but it is not.

Nor have those Hindus who have eschewed the caste system abondoned or distorted their religion.

Amongst the many temples that I have attended, and the many Hindus that I know personally here in Canada, the great majority do not even know what caste the belong to. The exception to this is Brahmins, some of whom do try to hold on to their so-called hereditary position in society, but this is also changing.

Here is a lengthy article from a Brahmin Hindu scholar on the subject of caste:Hindu Caste System & Hinduism:

http://www.geocities.com/lamberdar/_caste.html

"Vedic vocations (Hindu castes) were
not related to heredity (birth)
(by Dr. Subhash C. Sharma ; Email: lamberdar@yahoo.com; link to: Related topics by the author )

1. INTRODUCTION
Rather coincidentally, at the dawn of civilization, as the people gathered and lived in clans or tribes (Visha), they collectively - irrespective of their undertakings within Visha (such as in agriculture, woodworking, trade and other vocations) - came to be known as the Vaishya (meaning - belonging to Visha).

To meet the liturgical needs of the society, the Vaishya - from among themselves - would select, on the basis of skills in elocution, the Brahmins (students or orators of the Vedas - compiled knowledge). Similarly, for administrative purposes, Vaishya with qualities of leadership would be selected as Kshatriya (sovereign, tribal chieftain, administrator of Kshatar - dominion or tribal area / town). Furthermore, a Visha (tribe) - in addition to having the Vaishyas (including Brahmins, Kshatriya, cowherders and woodworkers etc.) - also embodied people known as Shudra (meaning - not of tribe) representing all the newcomers (immigrants) to that particular tribe. They included persons from other tribes (such as the vanquished foes and the migrants) and the children born out of inter-tribal unions. Being somewhat new into that tribe and encountering unfamiliar rules, regulations and customs, a Shudra was limited in his vocational options and was generally relegated to providing service and assistance to members of the host tribe. But over time, like a modern day immigrant, he would surpass the tribal or social barriers so as to fully assimilate in that society and pursue other professions. Thus, all the responsibilities related to a Visha could be grouped into four sub-categories: Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra; the duties and skills involved with each of them are indicated in the following Sections.

Note also that, in old times, there was no concept of money or cash. People produced things and bartered (traded) them for other goods and services. A producer or trader belonging to Vaishya would include people such as farmer producing grains and milk etc., blacksmith (Lohar) making iron implements, leather-worker (Charmar or Chamar, charm meaning leather) manufacturing shoes, and so on. Thus, for subsistence, a Brahmin would do worship (puja) in a 'Vaishya' farmer's house and get grains and milk in return. Similarly, a Chamar would exchange shoes for food items from a farmer, iron implements from a Lohar, and so on. Similarly, a 'Shudra' servant might work or help in a farmer's field for food in return. If he were to help a Lohar, then Lohar would provide him with food items. Moreover, all these people would give a share of their goods (produce) and services to the Kshatriya (tribal chief) for administration of Visha (tribe or society). Society was basically managed through bartering system.

2. BACKGROUND and DISCUSSION
(Various Social and Cultural Issues)
The ancient society recognized the importance of all. Irrespective of one's skill or background, there was a place for him / her to participate actively and make useful contribution. The ceremonial rites, though conducted by the learned priest, were open to all. People used prayers for atonement and benediction for all. Everyone sent their "heroes" (sons) to the battles for Visha or to protect and assist the Sovereign. A number of important aspects of the ancient society can be further clarified by considering the following passages (with references to one God or BRAHMAN+, and manifesting as Agni, Indra or Savitar) from Vedas& (ancient Hindu texts).

From the RIGVEDA:
"What God shall we adore with our oblation?...He is the God of gods and none beside Him...O Father, thou Creator of Heaven and Earth, by eternal Law ruling - protect us...O Almighty, the Lord of beings, you alone pervade all the created beings..." (Book 10, Hymn: 121.8-10) / p. 98

"We all possess various thoughts and plans and diverse are the callings of men. The carpenter seeks out that which is cracked, the physician the ailing, the priest the worshipper......." (Book 9, Hymn 112.1) / p. 84

"I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother's job is to grind the corn......" (Book 9, Hymn 112.3) / p. 84

"The man who has awakened to the knowledge, becomes perfect. Let him speak for us to the gods..." (Book 5, Hymn 65.1) / p. 49

"May they, our Fathers who in their skill belong to the lowest order, attain higher one, those of midmost may attain the highest. May they who have attained a life of spirit, the knower of sacrifice, the guileless, help us when called upon...." (Book 10, Hymn 15.1-2) / p. 87

"Let gods lead us, let there be a stable union of the wife and husband... May authority be ever yours (i.e., wife's) in speech. Happy be you and prosper with your children, and be ever watchful to rule the household. Unite yourself with this man your husband. So authority will be yours in speech.. May the kinsman of the bride thrive well.." (Book 10, Hymn 85.26-28) / p. 94

"May the gods grant riches to the men more liberal than the terrifying..." (Book 1, Hymn 185.9) / p. 26

From the YAJURVEDA:
"May gods anoint this man to be without rival, for mighty rule, for mighty dominion and for great splendour. This man, son of such a person, such a woman, of such a clan, is anointed king, O you subjects... He is your lord...He is also sovereign of our learned Brahmins...Let all men protect him." (Kanda 1, Prapathaka 8, Hymn i.8.10.c) / p. 54

"O Agni, may all mortals seek your friendship, the guide of all. May all solicit you for glory, riches and fame. May all of us prosper as you do." (Kanda 1, Prapathaka 3, Hymn i.4.46.a-c) / p. 64

"O Agni, grant glory to our Brahmins, set luster in our Kshatriyas, luster in our Vaishyas, luster in our Shudras.." (Kanda 5, Prapathaka 7, Hymn v.7.6.d) / p. 102

"O god Savitar.. strengthen the life of subjects, strengthen the subjects..." (Kanda 1, Prapathaka 3, Hymn i.3.6.m-n) / p. 34

"O Agni...each fault done in a village or in forest, in society or mind, each sinful act that we have committed to Shudra or Vaishya or by preventing a religious act, even of that sin, you are the expiation..." (Kanda 1, Prapathaka 8, Hymn i.8.3.d) / p. 111

"He who knows well both knowledge and Nescience simultaneously, overcoming death by knowledge attains life immortal." (Isa Upanishad - verse 11) / p. 159

From the SAMVEDA:
"May our subjects be rich and strong with the favor of Indra. May we be wealthy in food, rejoice with them..." (Part Second, Book 4, Ch. 1, Hymn 14) / p. 74

From the BHAGVAD GITA:
As a part of God's creation (work), the four vocations are subgrouped according to people's guna (skills) and karma (assignments). Know that all work is for Him, even though He is beyond work, in Eternity. (Ch. 4 - verse 13)

Ignorant men, but not the wise, say that Sankhya (variously as: Jnana Yoga , Sanyasa or Surrender, Path of Vision or Wisdom) and Yoga (variously as: Karma Yoga, Tyaga or Renunciation, Path of Action, Bhakti or devotional service, Japaa or Silence, Dhayana or Contemplation / Meditation, Brahamcharya or Austerity, Vaanprastha or Hermitlike) are different paths; but he who gives his self (soul) to one reaches the end of two. (Ch. 5- verse 4)

Even if the greatest sinner worships God with all his soul, he must be considered righteous because of his righteous will. (Ch. 9 - verse 30)

And he shall soon become pure and reach everlasting peace. For this is His covenant that he who adores Him is not lost. (Ch. 9 - verse 31)

God is one in all, but it seems as if he were many; He (as Vishnu / preserver) supports all beings: from Him (as Rudra / destroyer) ensues end, and from Him (as Brahma / creator) ensues beginning. (Ch. 13 - verse 16)

The duties involving Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra are grouped according to people's abilities and skills. (Ch. 18 - verse 41)

The skills for a Brahmin involve serenity, self-harmony, austerity and purity, loving-forgiveness and righteousness; vision, wisdom and faith. (Ch. 18 - verse 42)

The qualities needed according to Kshatriya are: a heroic mind, splendor or inner fire, constancy, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and noble leadership. (Ch. 18 - verse 43)

Trade, agriculture and rearing of cattle may be tackled by Vaishya; and the background (tenure) of a Shudra is also suited to providing support (Ch. 18 - verse 44)

People attain perfection when they find joy in their work. Hear how a person attains perfection and finds joy in his work. (Ch. 18 - verse 45)

A person achieves perfection when his work is - performed with pure feeling of - worship of God, from whom all things come and who is in all. (Ch. 18 - verse 46)

The words of vision and wisdom have been conveyed. Ponder them in the silence of your soul, and then in freedom do your will. (Ch. 18 - verse 63)

Hindu Dharma (Hinduism):
Hinduism is religion based on the Vedas, and also known as the Sanatan Dharma (eternal religion) or Vedic Dharma. In the Vedas, god Bhaga was the bestower of auspicious blessings. It soon became the power of goodness, and he who possessed this power was called Bhagvan. The religion associated with Bhagvan (or Bhagvat) was called Bhagvata Dharma.
Likewise, Indu (Soma-juice or nectar) used to be offered to God as libation in Vedic yajnas (worships), and consumed afterwards by people (Hindu) for health, life, prosperity and progeny. Hindu means as someone propitiated by Indu (the Vedic libation). Note, H -- in Hindu, and pronounced as in hut -- implies auspiciousness or delight.

Religion belonging to Hindu is called Hindu Dharma.

In response to the misconception that the word Hindu originated as some foreigners stepped into India, note that no one from outside could have come to India and started calling the locals Hindu suddenly if such a word (in Sanskrit -- not those foreigners' language) had not already existed there. 'Hindu' also is not related to 'Sindhu' -- a word with similar ending and meaning ocean or river, especially in the west of India.

The words Sindhu (ocean or river) and Hindu (expiated by Indu) are linguistically and phonetically different, and Hindu is not derived from Sindhu. Note that Vedic Sanskrit did use the letters (sounds) 's' and 'dh' and therefore would not replace them with 'h' and 'd', respectively, transforming Sindhu into Hindu. In addition, the ancient Greeks reaching India (circa Alexander the great) could have easily pronounced Sindhu without changing it to Hindu by dropping S in favor of H since they were used to pronounce Sigma (an alphabet in Greek, their mother-toungue) which is syllabically somewhat similar to Sindhu. Furthermore, Muslims entering India for the first time and speaking Arabic or Persian -- languages having alphabets Sad and Sin etc. for 's' sounds -- would not have to substitute H for S in Sindhu (and thus make it Hindu) to pronounce or use it in their own languages. The word Hindu -- not specific to any particular region or area -- was already in use when these foreigners arrived in India, and they did not invent it from Sindhu accidentally or due to necessity.


Women's Issues:
It seems from the above that the ancient society was quite considerate and respectful to those (both men and women) engaged in various vocations, and people were free to make choices or changes in their careers or skills if the opportunity existed. Vedic prayers also indicate that the women had considerable say in selecting their marriage partners, and were espoused to live in monogamous relationships while enjoying same rights as their husbands. Furthermore, in the Vedas there is little evidence of child marriages, dowry system and the practice of suttee or sati (self-immolation of a woman upon her husband's death). Similarly, there is no indication of any stigma relating to widowhood or the remarriage of a widow. Note also that the well-educated, scholarly and charismatic women of yore, who also participated in many philosophical debates with men, included Gargi (the daughter of Vachaknu - from the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad) and Vidyottama (wife of the famed poet and writer, Kaalidasa, who started his life as a humble and menial worker in the woods). It is clear that the women or the lowly and humble in the society were neither ignored nor abandoned.

Listed below are a few examples of multi-vocational families and people changing their occupations and life styles.

(a) As indicated in the above, from the Rigveda, the mother of a bard (probably of the scriptures) was working in corn-grinding (an activity usually for a Shudra).

(b) Majority of the Rishis (sages) were both Brahmin and Kshatriya so as to manage their Aashramas (hermitages) effectively.

(c) In the Chandogya Upanishad, Satyakama (the illegitimate, varnasankra, son of a Shudra woman who did not even remember who her son's father was) went on to be accepted and educated for Brahmin work (the Gita: Ch. 18 - verse 42). This shows that the people (including the Shudra and of unknown lineage) had the choice of pursuing any occupation (even that of a Brahmin).

(d) Valmiki (given to chanda - meaning impetuosity - in his early days) started life as a robber. But later in life, after performing penance, he studied to become a Brahmin. He went on to become a great Rishi (sage) and wrote the Ramayana in Sanskrit. Thus, going from being a chandaal (meaning - cruel and brutal person) to a great human being not only demonstrates his personal endeavor, but also that the society was quite accepting of such a process and its outcome. In general, as indicated here and in the Vedic passages, the concept of untouchability (with respect to the Shudra or any one else as a dalit / untouchable) did not exist. Any shunning or condemnation of a person was due mainly to his / her engaging in an activity not useful or acceptable to the society. Above all, it is also clear that any type of socially stigmatic situation could be easily improved through penance and by changing one's behaviour. Incidentally, this type of humane rehabilitation of criminals and sinners is a sign of civilized people long ago; and this humane practice exists even today in various countries claiming to be modern and civilized.

(e) In one of the stories from the Ramayana, Rishi Viswamitra is said to have conducted Yajna (worship) at which the officiating priest was a once Kshatriya and the Yajamaan (worshipper) a Chandaal.

(f) In the Mahabharata, Satyavati (a Shudra-girl whose father was a fisherman), when presented with a marriage proposal from king Shantanu, married him only after he accepted her pre-nuptial agreement. Her own children, in stead of another older heir to the throne, went on to inherit the Kshatriya kingdom as was demanded in the pre-nuptial agreement. This indicates that the intercaste marriages and exchanges were quite prevalent; and that the women and Shudras could make free choices even when there was royalty involved.

(g) Matrimonial and Vocational Choices:
The evolution of society and customs was mainly due to the individual and collective needs and choices (as indicated also in some of the above Vedic quotes on marriage, vocational activities etc.). In addition, the role and influence of various espoused or suggested proclamations such as involving the varnashrama dharma (casteo-monastic orders) etc. - based on non-scriptural (non-Vedic) writings (such as Manusmriti etc. accredited to Manu et al.) - on the development and progress of society at large (across-the-board) was rather insignificant.

The ancient society (generally modest and homogeneous economically) did not restrict the cross-caste matrimonial and occupational choices. In spite of the socially liberal conditions, though, the change in vocation did not always lead to significant economic gains. In addition, some vocations (e.g., Vaishya and Shudra) were inherently conducive for their young to quickly and easily engage in the family business / profession and settle down (socially and economically) early in life. Consequently, the children from these families found the other vocations (such as the Brahmins and, to some extent, the Kshatriya) to be less rewarding and not worth the preparatory effort, which included living and training (and paying the teacher through labor) for decades in hermitages in harsh and forest-like conditions where the knowledge exchange between the guru and the pupils was usually in the oral tradition since the written manuscripts (on papyrus etc.) were scarce. On the other hand, the children from the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas families were predisposed (through the natural and continuous exposure to the family business) and were readily inducted by their parents into their traditional professions. Over time, this type of selecting the professions inadvertently gave rise to the tradition of vocation based families all around even though the society had not sought such an outcome. Note that the society in this respect remained flexible and allowed people (including the Shudra, who also engaged in menial and ignoble pursuits) the freedom of choice in their undertakings (e.g., Satyakama in the above).

In a similar and related context, it was deemed vocationally advantageous and convenient for a couple to marry if they both had the same background, because they would then be able to get involved in their family occupation quickly and easily without facing any uncertainty or requiring any additional apprenticeship. Moreover, the bride or the groom in this type of wedding arrangement would be less likely to encounter any unexpected, unfamiliar, inhospitable and unwanted post-marital social situations. Note also that, in addition to the weddings involving same type of families, the marriages among people from vastly different backgrounds also frequently took place (as in the case of Satyavati and Shantanu) and the society posed no restrictions.

Thus it was basically an arbitrary social custom which arose over time as a matter of convenience whereby the people stuck to their family professions and also married within same type of families (vocations). Note, the lack of relevant information available in print etc. probably also led to the guru-pupil based disciplic tradition for knowledge/spirituality which would otherwise be not as crucial. In any case, people (of any caste) desiring to not follow these customs or to break away from them simply should go on their own - without any fear of repercussions from the state, society or religion - to learn and pursue new vocations; and in the process they would also be able to find compatible and willing marriage partners for themselves within the society at large. Moreover (as regards to the Gita: Ch. 5 - V. 18, Ch. 6 - V. 9, Ch. 9 - V. 32), the priests and temples that serve (cater to) and admit all (Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra including the disadvantaged or Dalit) should be accorded the greatest respect and support.

Illustration of the rise of Subcastes within Castes:
As humans continued to create and adopt new occupations, move to new places and territories, or encounter unfamiliar surroundings and situations, the four primary vocations (castes: Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra) developed or transformed into several secondary subcastes characterized by peoples' tasks etc. For example, vocationally speaking, if a person - while trying to become a Brahmin - learnt two Vedas, he would be called a Dwivedi, whereas the learner of three Vedas would be known as a Trivedi. It shows that titles (or subcastes) as Dwivedi and Trivedi basically correspond to certain specific Brahminic pursuits.

Similarly, a Vaishya engaged in forming objects from loha (iron) would be called the Lohar, whereas, the maker of articles from sona (gold) would be called the Sonar. Moreover, if a Sonar's son pursued his father's occupation (business) and was followed by his son, and so on, it would give rise to a subcaste (lineage) called Sonars within the Vaishya caste. Note that such preference or tradition for family business would occur for several reasons. First, the parents generally found it easy and safe to guide their young towards a familiar and time assured vocation. Second, the familiarity with parents' job made it easy for children to learn and practice that occupation. Third, it might probably help in attaining the familial stability and lead to an easy transfer of accumulated knowledge and expertise between generations.

The influence of migration on subcastes can be similarly explored. Consider the following example. At some point in history, a certain inhabited area was to be inundated under a new dam and the people had to move and live elsewhere. As they settled in a new area, the locals there would address them as the Damiya (meaning - from the dam). Some of the newcomers might even prefer this new title to that they had before moving to the new place. Moreover, when, for example, a newcomer (migrant or Shudra) started working as Mistree (mason), he would be called a Damiya-Mistree (a Vaishya - usually a person in non-priestly or non-administrative occupation). Similarly, if the person worked as a priest, he would be known as the Damiya-Brahmin. This indicates that the title 'Damiya' had suddenly acquired the status as a subcaste. More importantly, note that two principal castes (Brahmin and Vaishya) had gained subcastes with the same name (Damiya) with reference to totally different tasks (as priests and masons).

The above examples illustrate the manner in which the subcastes are created and the way they relate to the principal castes. Note also that, depending on the circumstances, the newly created subcastes may either co-exist with the original subcastes, or replace some or all of the latter. This surely can lead to drastic fluctuations in their numbers. As this process of creating and retaining of subcastes occurs time and again over vast places and cultures, their numbers remain uncertain and alter frequently making it difficult to keep track of them. Nonetheless, the subcastes are functional in character and subject to easy transformations.

(h) Vedic/Hindu Tenets:
The ancients were in favour of progressive ideas (e.g., about the environment, philosophy / religion and life style) and appear to have conducted their affairs reasonably and democratically. They either shunned or actively opposed the stagnant, blind and baseless practices (rituals) and the intolerant / autocratic persons and beliefs (faiths). The rituals for invocations of the physical, imagery (tales / myths) and the mundane were deemed less rewarding than the meditation of the spiritual, the source (truth / logic) and the divine; (meditation is explained in Ch. 6 of the Gita). Note that the reality expressed in terms of various physical (artistic) forms or through poetry can have different interpretations. For example, in some of the ancient texts, a viman may just be a cart or chariot and not necessarily an airplane or sky-craft.

While considering chatur as four (and bhuj meaning arm, and mukh meaning face or mouth), chatur-bhuj and chatur-mukh are shown as four-armed and four-faced idols. In stead, consider for example, chatur as the skilled one: chatur-bhuj and chatur-mukh will then represent, anthropomorphically (like a human with a face and two arms), a god (deva : friendly and blissful, superior being) who is skilled-armed (or ambidextrous: probably in all the occupations) and skilled-orator (i.e., a fine instructor). Thus, chatur-bhuj and chatur-mukh are, respectively, symbols of the omnipotence and the omniscience of One God, or reflect His excellence in enterprise (as Vishnu) and instruction (as Brahma). God is One: Braham or BRAHMAN (not the Brahmin caste). When He (as Atman) enters the body (or as spirit unites with nature), life begins, and He is called Brahma. As long as He stays in the body, the life continues, and He is seen as preserving it and is called Vishnu. Once He leaves the body, life ends (or body expires); and His departure is seen as if He has worked as Rudra in bringing an end to life. But, throughout, He remains One: Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra are only His aspects of creation, preservation and termination.
Thus, in regard to man-made symbols for displaying various Divine attributes for the purposes of worship and meditation etc., there should be some correspondence between the attribute and the symbol. For example, if omnipotent God is to be represented 'as meaning Vishnu' in human form, it is sufficient and logical to interpret chatur (in chatur-bhuj) as skilled (even as ambidextrous) in all the tasks. Similarly, if omniscient God is to be represented 'as meaning Brahma' in human form, it is sufficient and logical to interpret chatur (in chatur-mukh) as skilled in oratory and knowledge. Thus, there is no need to interpret chatur as four in chatur-bhuj or chatur-mukh; and hence it is unnecessary to assume or create various four-headed and four-armed religious symbols for representing God anthropomorphically. Incidentally, note also in Ch. 11 of the Gita, Arjun - after having realized vision of the Omnipresent encompassing all Creation - wishes (verse 46) to see the lord (mentor) in chatur-bhuj form (holding scepter and circle), which seems to refer only to latter's dexterity. And Arjun's wish is soon fulfilled (Ch. 11 - V. 50) as he is able to see Krishan as a regular (normal looking) person, and there is no suggestion anywhere that the former had an encounter with anyone bearing four arms.

Metaphorically speaking, Shiv-Linga (or Shiv-Lingam) refers only to Shiva - the remover of destruction, i.e., same as the preserver (Vishnu or God), and it necessarily is not a certain special symbol (e.g., shown often in pollex or index form); because in Linga (or Lingam), the word Li (which in second or Object case singular form becomes Lim or Lin with nasal sound ending) means loss or destruction, and ga (or gam) implies removing or going away. Thus, Shiv-Linga (or Shiv-Lingam) symbolizes God's power (attribute) to extricate from destruction or loss.
Note also that the symbol (such as, the pollex, ling or phallus looking), portrayed in various religious rituals (Hindu and elsewhere), has probably the origins in the ancient fire (Agni) sacrifice or worship to God. It appears to be a solid image of jwala (flame) from a yajna (sacrificial fire) and was perhaps introduced long ago as a duplicate for the sacrificial fire. Because creating and lighting of a yajna used to be a very difficult and time-consuming process (as indicated in some of the Vedic hymns also), this image made the worship possible anywhere anytime (i.e., by using it in place of live fire and pouring oblations upon it). Note that the smearing of the solid symbol with ash also points to a close association with fire worship. Similarly, when this fire (Agni) solid (symbol) is placed under a pitcher from which the libation slowly and continuously flows over it, it appears to give the impression of an unending and uninterrupted active worship even during the absence of worshippers. There, the solid symbol represents the live fire in a yajna and the pitcher (with dripping libation) symbolizes the worshipper pouring oblations into the fire. In addition, it is worth noting that some of the practices in present-day worships appear to relate closely to the original fire sacrifice: the lighting of lamps or candles represents the actual or original fire (flame), and the burning of incense recreates the aroma that would be given off by the oblations (soma etc.) into the live fire.
In this regard, the symbols dedicated to Agni (or Shiv, God) should also correspond to logic and not just to myth or fiction. The identification of Agni symbol (i.e., jwala, or Agni-ling: ling meaning symbol) as a phallus is perhaps due to the confusion that their shapes are similar. Note that the early humans were praying and worshipping for everything. They also prayed to God for children (heroes, sons). In this regard, religiously and psychologically, the Agni symbol 'looking like phallus' became the favorite idol. Unfortunately, over time, people forgot about its association with Agni, and identified it only in terms of biology and procreation. (Note: Since Shiva refers also to the auspicious flame or Agni-jwala, Agni-ling or a similar looking object probably was referred to as Shiv-ling.)

Note, Agni is a manifestation of BRAHMAN or Iswara. Agni in the male aspect is Shiva, and as female is Shakti. The Agni-jwala (flame) is called Shiva. The common symbols (e.g., long or stubby ling or symbol) for Shiva and Shakti are just solid images of Agni (Yajna fire). Incidentally, Shiva and Shakti always appear together -- perhaps due to their common association with Agni. Moreover, Agni is also probably the biggest destroyer. Thus the connection between Agni and Shiva as the destroyers can be seen. On the other hand, Shankra is the greatest among Rudras; and Rudras are destroyers. Thus Shiva (through a connection with Agni as the greatest destroyer) probably, in His destructive aspect at least, is also identified with Shankra (the greatest Rudra destroyer). Note, Agni probably also is the origin of a number of other dark colored gods (idols), where their color corresponds to dark (black) colored ash (associated with fire or yajna).

In references to Hanumat or Hanuman, the name appears simply to imply a strong-jawed (or a very strong) person and not necessarily a monkey or monkey-chief. Similarly, Ganesha or Ganapati may simply mean Lord (Isha, Pati) of the people (Gana) and not just an elephant-headed figure (ganika meaning a female elephant).

Thus, it seems that there is a tendency to express and endorse a certain specific divine trait as a whole (entire) phenomenon through recognizable art (shapes and forms) and stories (fictional accounts) to make it more appealing and understandable to the masses. Unfortunately, if such a message is not communicated properly or is lost over time, it will mislead and confuse people and may even wrongly imply that there is more than one real source of divinity. Note, as indicated also in Rigveda (Book 1: Hymn 164 # 46) and the Gita (Ch. 13: Verse 16), the Source basically is, locally and universally, the same and complete in essence and attributes.

Similarly, in the Rigveda, the division of Purusha (Being or Spirit) is indicated to have taken place at the beginning; the implication of which really is the transcendence of the (chaotic) old into the (stable) new in terms of evolution of the society. There, the emergence of Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra from the body of Purusha symbolically corresponds, respectively, to their occupations giving the society its voice (arising as if from Purusha's mouth), order (as if through Purusha's arms), form (as if on Purusha's thighs), and change or migration (as if via Purusha's feet).

Furthermore, in the three original (basic to Hinduism) Vedas (Rig, Yajur and Sam) referred to above, little mention or support is shown for astrology; and sorcery, witchcraft, magic and worthless worships are condemned (RV: Book 7, Hymn 104.20, 23-25; Book 10, Hymn 37.4). Similarly (RV: Book 7, Hymn 104.5,7, 13-16), civic or religious (for god or faith) deception (corruption, cheating and wickedness) and exploitation (including coercion, bondage, aggression and plundering) are forbidden and not to be tolerated. Note, the Gita (Ch. 16) reiterates these precepts; and (Ch. 3 - V. 26) favors advancing of religion/spirituality peacefully and by example.

(i) Salvation, Karma, Reincarnation and Metamorphosis:
It was realized long ago that, irrespective of one's background, attaining the immortality or overcoming the death (or the fear of it) is in understanding oneself (individual life or being) - the union between soul (spirit - real, sat or eternal) and body (matter - unreal, asat or transient) - as part of the Supreme (stated also in Ch. 2, 6, 7 & 9 of the Bhagvad Gita). Symbolically, therefore (as stated in Ch. 8 of the Gita), following the path (or going in the time) of clarity (as in the light of day or the sun) about the self is liberating (Ch. 6); whereas, following the path (or going in the time) of confusion (as in the darkness of night or the moon) about the self brings nothing but fear (morbidity). It is worth noting (the Gita: Ch. 6 - verse 45) that, whatever a person's social status or civic duty, the spiritual gains derived from all efforts for achieving the union of one with the One are imminent and cumulative.

In this context, the Karmic principle (i.e., a good or bad action leads to a good or bad outcome) is assumed to influence the course of events taking place during this life and, supposedly, afterwards. Accordingly, each experience or action by a person affects him in body* and soul in the next situation or future. Each experience itself is a life/Janma : its beginning and end symbolically being birth and death. Moreover, according to the Karmic principle, even when the body dies, the soul continues to live and may feel the residual effect of the preceding existence. The reincarnation therefore symbolically represents the extension of this principle during the hereafter. It is, in other words, a new opportunity or promise to accrue spiritual gains on the basis of actions during previous life. Note also that reincarnation merely presents to a person a new possibility (opportunity) arising out of countless influences, and, depending upon the new surroundings (people, environment etc.) and the future actions by the individual himself, it may or may not fully materialize (the Gita: Ch. 18 - verse 14). For example, as indicated above, even though Satyakama started as a Shudra (in a non-Brahmin vocation), he went on, through his own initiative and effort and with the help of his guru, to acquire new skills to become a Brahmin (the profession of choice for him). Thus, reincarnation - being associated with the soul - appears to be unimportant with regards to the worldly pursuits such as involving vocations (castes) etc. Similarly, salvation (Moksha) - which also relates to the soul - is achievable by all (irrespective of their background), and can be easily attained by uniting (elevating) one's soul with God by practicing good deeds and penance etc. The Gita, to this end, states (in Ch. 2) - in response to a query in Ch. 1 (verse 42) regarding the rituals to ancestors - that God's grace and the good deeds by a person during his own lifetime are important to seek salvation.

The supposed metamorphoses of God as Ram and Krishan etc., heroes of the early civilizations (in epics Ramayana and Mahabharata etc.), should be taken in spiritual/moralistic/philosophical context. The reverence (mainly ritualistic or for a reward) to them - dedicated according to their physical eminence and existence, and based primarily on the stories which appear to be skewed over time into myths/tales (Pauranic etc.) - thus needs to reduce. Note that God alone is deemed worthy of all worships (the Gita: Ch. 9 - V. 24, Chs. 10 & 4) since all the eminence and creation -- including even all the gods and goddesses associated with various places, times or events -- are ultimately due to Him. Incidentally, when Krishan speaks in the Gita, he is not only speaking as a friend (well-wisher) and charioteer (worker and assistant) of Arjuna, but he is also advising Arjuna in the capacity of a guru. Above all, in essence, Krishan also is both BRAHMAN (Iswara) and Atman in the Gita.

Note also in this regard that the notion of a personal God sometimes results in a very informal devotee–deity relationship. The devotee often uses various preferred salutations, representations and rituals (worships and offerings) to express his unique love and reverence towards the 'kind and caring' deity. But, when many people engaging in this manner - in their own special ways of worships ,etc., are viewed collectively, their society is seen to be overly ritualistic and following many gods, even though, in reality the ultimate object of reverence remains One. (Note, the Gita: Ch. 9-V. 26).

3. CONCLUSION
The vocational choice long ago was mainly need-based (personal and tribal) and circumstantial (in terms of the availability of labor at a place or time, natural disasters and battles among tribes). It inspired that the societal tasks and responsibilities be dispensed solely in terms of a person's nature or qualification (Guna) and his active undertaking or assignment (Karma). It was a great vision at work that is referred to also in the Bhagvad Gita (as in the original Sanskrit verse 13 of Ch. 4, where the reference is made only to Guna - nature / qualification, and it does not mean born nature). Incidentally, the original vocations seem to have been similar to the present jobs that also require compatibility between the worker's qualifications and the potential assignment.

Inherently, the above system satisfied one and the all. The Gita (Ch. 18 - verse 41) further elaborates that all occupations are important and correspond to various needs or segments of the society and are dispensed according to ability (svabhava) on the basis (prabhva) of qualification (guna; which does not mean born nature). The duties relating to each adopted vocation (as explained in the above Introduction: Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra) are also listed in the Gita (Ch. 18 - verses 42, 43 & 44). It is also indicated in the Gita (Ch. 5 - verse 4) that all spiritual paths are applicable and bring same results to people with different vocations. The Gita (Ch. 16 & 18) stresses that, while it is of utmost importance to recognize and adhere to one's own responsibility or the task at hand, there is no other special advantage or basis (in terms of ritualism or one's heredity) for pursuing a particular undertaking. A socially necessary and useful activity for the physical well-being of person is as important as any worship/puja for his/her salvation (The Gita: Ch. 3 - verse 8). The Gita (Ch. 3 - verse 35) further notes that taking care of one's own responsibility (purpose/dharma) merits higher than venturing needlessly elsewhere, since keeping one's own obligation (even in a miniscule way) leads to satisfaction that outweighs the trappings, uncertainty and formidableness associated with another's task. It is also stated in the Gita (Ch. 12, Ch. 18 - verses 45 & 46) that, no matter what a person's duty or task (whether shubh - appealing, or ashubh - unappealing), he attains perfection or heavenly bliss if he is fully dedicated to it and performs it with pleasure and interest as if it were a service to the Lord (Transcendent or the Manifest). Lord, God or Hari (Saviour) is expressed (Ch. 17) divinely (in accordance with tattva**) as OM TAT SAT (Creator, Master and the Righteous). (Creation seems to arise from OM during contemplation as the omniscient, TAT is what maintains it through omnipotence, and it has the noble and righteous end according to SAT.) Note also that God is one, yet He can manifest in more ways than one (Ch. 4 & 9); and He dwells in the heart of all (Ch. 18). He is One in all (stated above; the Gita: Ch. 13 - verse 16). In addition, one need not be preoccupied about the hereafter (or the heaven and the hell) as long as he understands the good from the bad (Ch. 16 of the Gita) and the redemption (spiritual) through penance (monetarily free and as stated in the Gita: Ch. 9 - verses 30 & 31).

Thus, the Vedic religion (Hinduism) is universal and progressive: the Hindu way of life is open to all, and without any discrimination on the basis of gender, race, heredity, beliefs, occupation, social status or background, and the place of origin. It is very logical (promotes knowledge and science / vigyan - the Gita: Ch. 6 - verse 8), encourages reasoning (the Gita: Ch. 18 - verses 63, 71 & 72), and is quite easy to understand and practice (as indicated in Ch. 3, 9 & 16 of the Gita). It is based on the fundamental principle of 'one to One relationship' or unity between a person and the universal God. In other words (e.g. the Gita: Ch. 9 - v. 10 & 29), everyone abides identically to the supreme, is significant to the creation, and has the same right to seek and realize the divine. In conclusion and at the personal level, one easily attains perfection and heavenly bliss in any activity (duty) if he / she keeps anger, lust and greed in check (the Gita: Ch. 16); stays mindful of the Lord (the Gita: Ch. 8), such as in the sense of the mantra (sacred words) 'Hari OM TAT SAT' (the universal God is the means of salvation); and through that undertaking (activity) adores / serves Him and His creation (the Gita: Ch. 11 & 18).

Thus it is also clear from the above that one (of any caste or background) need not feel disadvantaged, discriminated, dispossessed or deprived of spirituality as a Hindu if he / she pursues God by own free will in a manner convenient or appropriate to him / her. Remember that everyone is entitled to the same inspiration (guidance) and bliss (love) from God, who (as the source of vision and benediction) is the ultimate (greatest) guru / prophet (the Gita: Ch. 11) and friend / benefactor (the Gita: Ch. 5).

Closing Comment:
It is okay for a person - having no one to extend to him objective or satisfactory help and guidance in the matters relating to spiritual fulfillment, prayer and the place to pray - to choose a mode of worship suited to his needs and resources. Incidentally, worthless worships, myths / tales, hate-mongering and evil/corrupt deeds are detrimental to spirituality / faith. It is also worth noting that all - men, women, believers, nonbelievers and others - have the same rights and freedoms and they all deserve equal protection and consideration under a law that is constantly evolving with time and according to the need of the society. Thus, a contemporary civil legal code - progressive and reflective of the peoples and times - seems preferable to a law that may be perceived as antiquated, dictatorial, discriminatory, cultist or religious. The notion that a group / nation run by decree will be foremost in freedoms and human rights is misguided. A diverse, pluralistic and progressive society subjected to an autocratic or religious law / rule can quickly drift into a puritanical, singular and regressive system as the dissenting people either run away from it or totally succumb to the ruling dogma to ensure their own safety. Thus, the sectarian territorialization or vision of the world must cease, and any regime adverse to progressiveness should be shunned. In addition, the practices of casteism (social stratification in terms of vocation or caste)***, animal abuse, child labor, gender discrimination, dowry, veil (e.g. the body and face covering apparel) etc. must stop. It is also in the interest of humanity to rise above various tenets and practices and, while not ignoring the local issues, tackle serious global problems: rapidly deteriorating environment, depleting natural resources, disappearing flora and fauna, and overpopulation - already indicating a population exceeding the reasonable limit of about five billion people worldwide.


4. REFERENCES
(a) RIGVEDA by Dr. B.R. Kishore, D.P.B. (Diamond Pocket Books Ltd., New Delhi, India); Book (Ch.) # 1, 5, 7, 8, 9 & 10.

(b) YAJURVEDA by Dr. B.R. Kishore, D.P.B.; Book (Ch.) # 6, 9, 10, 11, 17, 19, 31 & 32.

(c) SAMVEDA by Dr. B.R. Kishore, D.P.B.; Uttararchika / Part Second: Book 4 (Ch. # 1).

(d) The Upanishads by S. Prabhavananda & F. Manchester, the Vedanta Society of Southern California, Vedanta Press, Hollywood (Ca), U.S.A., 1957

(e) Bhagvad Gita, Gita Press, Gorakhpur, India

(f) The Bhagavad Gita by Juan Mascaro, Penguin Books, Baltimore (Md), U.S.A., 1962

(g) Ramayana by C. Rajagopalachari, B.V.B. (Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Mumbai, India, 1996)

(h) Mahabharata by C. Rajagopalachari, B.V.B.

(i) The Encyclopaedia Indica (Vol. 4), (Editor) N. Vasu, B.R. Publishing Corp., Delhi, 1986

(j) The Rig Veda (Ralph T.H. Griffith, Translator; 1896): http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/

(k) Indian Philosophy (Vol. 2), Radhakrishnan, S. Oxford University Press, Delhi, 1989; ISBN 0195638204.
-------------------

Notes:


Note - 1:

+ BRAHMAN (God)

Hinduism is a monotheistic religion with one God (Brahman) assuming many forms and names. Brahman, as Nirguna, has no attributes (is formless and unmanifested), whereas as Saguna (or Iswara) is manifested and with attributes. People use many different names for God. Consider for example the following hymns from Rig Veda.

"They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutman.
To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan." RV (Book 1, Hymn 164.46)

"He in his might surveyed the floods containing productive force and generating Worship.
He is the God, and none beside him. What God shall we adore with our oblation?" RV (Book 10, Hymn 121.8)

Thus various forms (names and perceptions) symbolizing Brahman reflect different visions according to many sages and seers. Note that, like any particular prophet, each sage advances his own concept of God which seems unique (in name and form / image) and may be classed as monomorphic (one view). This concept of divine -- monotheistic and monomorphic -- is usually accepted and followed by the adherents of that particular sage. This is just like any monotheistic religion after a certain prophet. But in Hinduism, this situation is further augmented due to accumulated visions of God from many sages -- each sage's vision being separately monotheistic and monomorphic -- resulting in monotheism with a polymorphic view where one God is perceived in many different ways and with various capabilities (e.g. Nirguna, Unmanifest, Saguna, Manifest, Transcendent, Immanent, and so on). Note that this is not polytheism, because God is still one, even though He is portrayed differently according to different people (sages, etc.) and situations.

Hinduism is also not henotheistic, where people believe in one god but are not concerned if he is the only god. Note that Brahman is one even though He has many names. For henotheism, there should exist a parallel (or competing) deity against Brahman but such is not the case. In addition, even the different Avtars (reincarnations) are not considered as independent of Iswara.

Hinduism is not pantheistic either, since there is no direct identification of God with universe. Note, God and universe (belonging to the Absolute or Reality -- which also consists of souls) are considered as distinct from each other in Hindu religio-philosophy.

Furthermore, polymorphically speaking, God may be worshipped, for example, by a farmer as Varuna (meaning the lord of water) and by a carpenter as Vishvakarma (meaning architect of the world). Since water -- potential boon from Varuna -- is important in agriculture for bringing good harvest etc., the farmer easily, conveniently and even inadvertently is drawn towards the deity known as Varuna. Meanwhile, the carpenter identifies himself professionally more closely with Vishvakarma (the Constructor). People thus have a tendency to assign and accept various functional or phenomenal labels for God, and perceive, worship, and meditate on Him accordingly. In spite of having different names, Brahman (God) still remains one and the Hinduism monotheistic. Note also that worshipping Varuna and Vishvakarma just amounts to worshipping God in two different aspects of water and construction, respectively. In reality, worship of either Varuna or Vishvakarma or both of them together still amounts to -- including the potential benefits -- the worship of one Brahman. The Real, possessing various attributes (i.e. God as Varuna or as Vishvakarma), should not be seen as accumulating them mathematically. Thus, one (as Varuna) + one (as Vishvakarma) is not to be construed as two, but still One (God).

Depending on the basic attributes, God (Hari or Savior) is called Om -- the creator (Omniscient, Brahma, the chaturmukh); Tat -- the preserver / master (Omnipotent, Vishnu, the chaturbhuj); and Sat -- the destroyer (Rudra or Shiva -- good and righteous; RV: Book 5, Hymn 44.2).

Furthermore, in the earthly regions, Iswara (and His power) may manifest as Agni; in the mid-air, as Indra; and in the heavens, as Savitar. Note that the personality or symbol used as a deity in meditation or worship is mainly for spiritual significance and to reflect the real power (God) behind it. Physical and material aspects of the symbol used in worship are less important.

True bhakti (devotion) and the type (method) of worship depend on a person's nature and temperament. Moreover, even if the object of adoration remains the same, there may be several ways to approach it. In addition, Brahman as Nirguna (unmanifested) is simply believed in. The direct worship of Nirguna Brahman is not possible, because it is not known (as Nirguna) and therefore can not be worshipped. The believer therefore simply recognizes the entire creation as a reflection of God and acts accordingly (Gita: Ch 12).

In the case of Saguna Brahman, there are two types of worship -- one is of a personal God as the Immanent, and the other by using symbols. In case of the Immanent, worship usually occurs in the form of pure meditation and at the spiritual level. On the other hand, when a worshipper views God as being external to him, then the worship is symbolic. Here, symbols (objects and deities etc.) used are generally prakrit (comprising of prakrti / nature and therefore involving three modes or gunas -- sattva, rajas, and tamas). Note that the worshipper in this case needs to be careful as to what exactly the object of adoration (such as the deity) and the method of worship (yajna etc.) stand for, because that will determine the outcome (fruits) of such worship.

Object of meditation (worship) should be beyond or above the Law of Karma. It should not become part of the sansara (world) -- as a soul or the constituent matter -- and be not existing at times in the mode of darkness or ignorance (Tamas). Note that only Brahman is above and beyond Karma, is changeless, and meets these conditions (Gita: Ch. 5 - V. 29). On the other hand, if the meditation (worship) is intended towards a secondary figure (such as a guru or a deity) who is subject to the Law of Karma, the results from such effort will also be secondary (Gita: Ch. 9 - V. 25). The meditation (worship) symbols and methods should be therefore carefully selected.

Note also that the religious offerings and gifts, though important, are voluntary and motivated by faith and love. Moreover, worships and rituals should not be performed miserly and with a desire for vainglory (RV: Book 7 - Hymn 32.9; Gita: Ch. 9 - V. 26, Ch. 16 - V. 17, Ch. 17 - V. 13).

------------

Note - 2:

& Vedas and Vedic hymns

Consider the following hymns as example.

"We all have various thoughts and plans, and diverse are the ways (castes / vocations) of people.
The Brahmin seeks the worshipper, the carpenter seeks the cracked, and physician the ailing. Flow, Indu, flow for Indra's sake!" RV (Book 9, Hymn 112.1)

"The smith with ripe and seasoned plants, with feathers of the birds of air,
With stones, and with enkindled flames, seeks him who has gold. Flow, Indu, flow for Indra's sake." RV (Book 9, Hymn 112.2)

"I am a singer, my dad is a physician, my mother's job is to grind corn with stones.
Striving for wealth, with varied plans (vocations), we follow our desires like a cowherder after his kine. Flow, Indu, flow for Indra's sake." RV (Book 9, Hymn 112.3)

"Like, a horse would rather pull an easy cart, a joyful host desires the laugh and jest.
The male desires his mate's approach, the frog is eager for the flood. Flow, Indu, flow for Indra's sake." RV (Book 9, Hymn 112.4)


Discussion:

As is clear in the above, Vedas represent acquired, accumulated and compiled ancient knowledge. Not only the Brahmins wrote or contributed to this (Vedic) knowledge, but it came from all sources and castes (vocations). Some of the Vedic hymns (such as in the above) were composed by regular workers and the children of Shudra. Note also that there are only three original Vedas (Rig, Yajur and Sam) -- that are basic to Hinduism -- and Atharva Veda is not one of them.

Vedic vocations (castes, varna) seem to have arisen according to need (for wealth), opportunity (where work existed Ee.g. Brahmin looks for worshipper, and physician looks for sick, etc.) and qualification (Brahmin has priestly background, carpenter specializes in wood-working, etc.). Moreover, in one family there are people with three different occupations (singer / entertainer, physician / healer, corn-grinder / worker). Choice of vocation, in addition to pursuing the wealth to live on, also seems to be based on combining a natural and acquired talent (e.g. a joyful host) with aesthetic aspirations (seeking laugh and jest from appreciative audience). Vocations (castes) therefore are not based on heredity.

In the above Vedic hymns, a woman's importance (as an occupational contributor, and as a companion / mate) is also recognized and valued in the same manner as that of a man. It indicates that the women had a high social standing and even might be at par with men.

------------


Note - 3:

* Constituents of the body (as in the Gita: Ch. 7 - V. 4):
physical (earth, water, fire, air, space); and subtle or derived (mind, intellect, ego).
-------------


Note - 4:

** God and Creation are inseparable.
-------------


Note - 5:

*** Caste system (vocation, jati-kram) basically represents the elaboration or description of various vocations (castes or varna) in a society in terms of people's talents / qualifications (guna) and the corresponding jobs (karma). Casteism ( jati-vad, jati-pana or jatiyat), on the other hand, is the social stratification (or society becoming rigidly divided) in terms of those vocations or castes. It arises mainly when children automatically and naturally start inheriting jobs (occupations) of their parents. To get rid of casteism, people should be encouraged to engage in all types of occupations.
Note that, as a rule, Srutis (Vedas) always have precedence over Smritis, (including Manu-Smriti and Puranas). Therefore, in matters of controversy regarding casteism etc., follow the advice of the sruti and not the smriti.



Please accept my abject apologies for the length of this article, but I do want to make my position on this very contentious issue abundantly clear. After reading this, it is possible that you may disagree with me. As I said in the beginning of this post, this issue is still controversial in India. I hope, though, that after this, if you still hold to our positions, we can close this subject agree to disagree.

[Sarada]

Salaam, Peace, and Shanti, Sisters and Brothers,

For those who do not have the time or do not wish to strain their eyes, by reading the HUMONGOUS ARTICLE ABOVE here is what Subhash Sharma wrote in his summary"


As is clear in the above, Vedas represent acquired, accumulated and compiled ancient knowledge. Not only the Brahmins wrote or contributed to this (Vedic) knowledge, but it came from all sources and castes (vocations). Some of the Vedic hymns (such as in the above) were composed by regular workers and the children of Shudra. Note also that there are only three original Vedas (Rig, Yajur and Sam) -- that are basic to Hinduism -- and Atharva Veda is not one of them.

Vedic vocations (castes, varna) seem to have arisen according to need (for wealth), opportunity (where work existed Ee.g. Brahmin looks for worshipper, and physician looks for sick, etc.) and qualification (Brahmin has priestly background, carpenter specializes in wood-working, etc.). Moreover, in one family there are people with three different occupations (singer / entertainer, physician / healer, corn-grinder / worker). Choice of vocation, in addition to pursuing the wealth to live on, also seems to be based on combining a natural and acquired talent (e.g. a joyful host) with aesthetic aspirations (seeking laugh and jest from appreciative audience). Vocations (castes) therefore are not based on heredity.

In the above Vedic hymns, a woman's importance (as an occupational contributor, and as a companion / mate) is also recognized and valued in the same manner as that of a man. It indicates that the women had a high social standing and even might be at par with men.

------------


Note - 3:

* Constituents of the body (as in the Gita: Ch. 7 - V. 4):
physical (earth, water, fire, air, space); and subtle or derived (mind, intellect, ego).
-------------


Note - 4:

** God and Creation are inseparable.
-------------


Note - 5:

*** Caste system (vocation, jati-kram) basically represents the elaboration or description of various vocations (castes or varna) in a society in terms of people's talents / qualifications (guna) and the corresponding jobs (karma). Casteism ( jati-vad, jati-pana or jatiyat), on the other hand, is the social stratification (or society becoming rigidly divided) in terms of those vocations or castes. It arises mainly when children automatically and naturally start inheriting jobs (occupations) of their parents. To get rid of casteism, people should be encouraged to engage in all types of occupations.
Note that, as a rule, Srutis (Vedas) always have precedence over Smritis, (including Manu-Smriti and Puranas). Therefore, in matters of controversy regarding casteism etc., follow the advice of the sruti and not the smriti.

[InToTheRain]

Peace be upon those who truely seek guidance,

Thanks for that Sarada, it clarified it for me, I see now why you hold the opinion you do and I believe you are right. I am a little slow, and that maybe an understatement, so I apologise for the inconvenience :-[

The duties involving Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra are grouped according to people's abilities and skills. (Ch. 18 - verse 41)

The skills for a Brahmin involve serenity, self-harmony, austerity and purity, loving-forgiveness and righteousness; vision, wisdom and faith. (Ch. 18 - verse 42)

The qualities needed according to Kshatriya are: a heroic mind, splendor or inner fire, constancy, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and noble leadership. (Ch. 18 - verse 43)

Trade, agriculture and rearing of cattle may be tackled by Vaishya; and the background (tenure) of a Shudra is also suited to providing support (Ch. 18 - verse 44)

People attain perfection when they find joy in their work. Hear how a person attains perfection and finds joy in his work. (Ch. 18 - verse 45)

Now onto another question LOL :D

"O god Savitar.. strengthen the life of subjects, strengthen the subjects..." (Kanda 1, Prapathaka 3, Hymn i.3.6.m-n) / p. 34


"O Agni, grant glory to our Brahmins, set luster in our Kshatriyas, luster in our Vaishyas, luster in our Shudras.." (Kanda 5, Prapathaka 7, Hymn v.7.6.d) / p. 102

Why is God being reffered to Agni which means "Fire" above? is there a special reason why "fire" is used to describe God instead of other things such as Cow or snake etc

regards :thumbs_up

[Sarada]

Peace be upon those who truely seek guidance,

Thanks for that Sarada, it clarified it for me, I see now why you hold the opinion you do and I believe you are right. I am a little slow, and that maybe an understatement, so I apologise for the inconvenience :-[




Now onto another question LOL :D



Why is God being reffered to Agni which means "Fire" above? is there a special reason why "fire" is used to describe God instead of other things such as Cow or snake etc

regards :thumbs_up

Salaam, Slave of Allah,

Indeed, you are not slow, this is still an issue within the Hindu community. I hope one day, those who are "casteists" will realize that they are wrong.
Just as in past times, the Bible was erroneously quoted to justify slavery, so, there is still this problem amongst some Hindus where people try to erroneously use the scriptures to justify their position.

I am amazed that you had time to read all of that, and I am very happy that you see my point of view.


As I have mentioned before, God is seen as having many different aspects and attributes. One of the many different aspects of Agni is that Agni is the "mouth of God"

When, in our rituals, we offer something to the fire (put it in the fire) it is automatically consumed, and we believe its essence goes directly to God. Agni is also the first priest, messenger between humans and God.

Fire is also a source of light, and lustre as is the sun. Glory also has the connotation of brightness, and light. We often pray to that aspect of God which represents the things that we are asking for, to grant us those things.

[snakelegs]

Salaam, Peace, Shanti Snakelegs,

I would say that the Hindu approach to life is generally more spiritual than material compared to the Judeo/Christian approach here in the west. You can see the evidence in the way each society has evolved. The majority of the technological advances in the last few centuries have their origin in the West. That is not to say, that we shun the material world the way the Amish do. However, our focus and main goal in life is to attain union with God.

The material world is transitory. We know that whatever we have today, can be gone tomorrow. We do not "own" anything, in the sense that we have complete control over it. Our goal is non-attachment to material things.
For us, this perspective is comforting when a tragedy or mishap occurs. We have already prepared ourselves mentally to accept that both happiness and sorrow are fleeting.


The four aims of a Hindu are:

1. Dharma (righteousness), To strive to do our duty with love and devotion
and without attachment to the outcome.

2. Artha (wealth), To have enough wealth to be comfortable, and to help others.

4. Kama (desire), To enjoy the pleasures of the senses, but not be attached to them, for they are fleeting.

4. Moksha (salvation or liberation)., To gain liberation from the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth, and attain union with God.



We do not value poverty for its own sake. Indeed many Hindus are wealthy, and we value wealth for the sake of enjoyment and for giving us the power to help others. We respect those who have chosen to use their wealth to follow a spiritual path.

For example, my Guru was a very astute real estate investor, and is now quite comfortable financially. He lives in a large house in a very good neighbourhood. He has now set himself up so that the can maintain this lifestyle from the income from his investments, and basically retire from active business life. He devotes is time to help people in need, visit them in hospitals and jails, give advice on spiritual and relationship issues, and perform rituals in the temple and at people's homes.

Is this duality? Perhaps.

But when I speak of duality, an non-duality, I mean basically, that a "dual philosophy" holds that good and evil come from different sources, and a "non-dual philosophy" holds that everything comes for the same source.

this answer makes perfect sense - it's just that you have your priorities straight:

However, our focus and main goal in life is to attain union with God.

shanti!

[Sarada]

Keeping one's priorities straight, is indeed a challenge.

[north_malaysian]

Salaam, Peace, and Shanti, Sisters and Brothers,

For those who do not have the time or do not wish to strain their eyes, by reading the HUMONGOUS ARTICLE ABOVE here is what Subhash Sharma wrote in his summary"


As is clear in the above, Vedas represent acquired, accumulated and compiled ancient knowledge. Not only the Brahmins wrote or contributed to this (Vedic) knowledge, but it came from all sources and castes (vocations). Some of the Vedic hymns (such as in the above) were composed by regular workers and the children of Shudra. Note also that there are only three original Vedas (Rig, Yajur and Sam) -- that are basic to Hinduism -- and Atharva Veda is not one of them.

Vedic vocations (castes, varna) seem to have arisen according to need (for wealth), opportunity (where work existed Ee.g. Brahmin looks for worshipper, and physician looks for sick, etc.) and qualification (Brahmin has priestly background, carpenter specializes in wood-working, etc.). Moreover, in one family there are people with three different occupations (singer / entertainer, physician / healer, corn-grinder / worker). Choice of vocation, in addition to pursuing the wealth to live on, also seems to be based on combining a natural and acquired talent (e.g. a joyful host) with aesthetic aspirations (seeking laugh and jest from appreciative audience). Vocations (castes) therefore are not based on heredity.

In the above Vedic hymns, a woman's importance (as an occupational contributor, and as a companion / mate) is also recognized and valued in the same manner as that of a man. It indicates that the women had a high social standing and even might be at par with men.

------------


Note - 3:

* Constituents of the body (as in the Gita: Ch. 7 - V. 4):
physical (earth, water, fire, air, space); and subtle or derived (mind, intellect, ego).
-------------


Note - 4:

** God and Creation are inseparable.
-------------


Note - 5:

*** Caste system (vocation, jati-kram) basically represents the elaboration or description of various vocations (castes or varna) in a society in terms of people's talents / qualifications (guna) and the corresponding jobs (karma). Casteism ( jati-vad, jati-pana or jatiyat), on the other hand, is the social stratification (or society becoming rigidly divided) in terms of those vocations or castes. It arises mainly when children automatically and naturally start inheriting jobs (occupations) of their parents. To get rid of casteism, people should be encouraged to engage in all types of occupations.
Note that, as a rule, Srutis (Vedas) always have precedence over Smritis, (including Manu-Smriti and Puranas). Therefore, in matters of controversy regarding casteism etc., follow the advice of the sruti and not the smriti.

you even gave summary for that large article.... you're so helpful... I hope others should follow you too...

[Sarada]

you even gave summary for that large article.... you're so helpful... I hope others should follow you too...

Salaam, North Malaysian,

It was the least I could do, considering the length of the article. :thankyou:

Sarada

[InToTheRain]

Peace Sarada,

When, in our rituals, we offer something to the fire (put it in the fire) it is automatically consumed, and we believe its essence goes directly to God. Agni is also the first priest, messenger between humans and God.

Fire is also a source of light, and lustre as is the sun. Glory also has the connotation of brightness, and light. We often pray to that aspect of God which represents the things that we are asking for, to grant us those things.

I see. back in the days when I used to watch them Hindi films, I used to see them circle the fire whenever they got married while a preist I think used to throw some stuff inside it. It all makes sense why they do it now.

[Grace Seeker]

8. Abrahamic religions are "dual" in nature. There is good and evil. God is good, Satan is evil. This leads to the conclusion that something must be "either this or that".

I find this viewing perplexingly interesting. I have heard expressed often, and I see it portrayed this way in cartoons with the devil on one shoulder and the angel on another, but I don't really understand why this is such a common perception. Since in creating the world God saw everything and said that it was good, and since Satan is nothing but a fallen angel (i.e., not the antithesis of God), where does this perception come from?





And on a lesser note, I don't quite get your point here:

Although the lotus is rooted in the filthiest muck, it rises above the water in splendorous beauty and purity. It beauty is so pure, that even droplets of water will roll off its petals or leaves.

It represents our goal, to rise from the quagmire of mundane existence and achieve perfection by merging with God. We, too can be like the lotus which has arisen from the filth to achieve purity.

I get the desire for purity and how you see that in something beautiful rising out of the muck. But the following escapes me: "It beauty is so pure, that even droplets of water will roll off its petals or leaves." Water will roll off of about anything that doesn't absorb it, be it a lotus petal, a blade or grass, or a mangey dog's back; beauty and purity don't appear to have anything to do with it.

[Sarada]

Originally Posted by Sarada
8. Abrahamic religions are "dual" in nature. There is good and evil. God is good, Satan is evil. This leads to the conclusion that something must be "either this or that".

I find this viewing perplexingly interesting. I have heard expressed often, and I see it portrayed this way in cartoons with the devil on one shoulder and the angel on another, but I don't really understand why this is such a common perception. Since in creating the world God saw everything and said that it was good, and since Satan is nothing but a fallen angel (i.e., not the antithesis of God), where does this perception come from?

"Where does this perception come from?" is not a question for a Hindu to answer.

I have heard Christians say many times that God is good, and that evil is not "of God", and that Satan is the "enemy". As you say, this is such a common perception and it seems to be a prevalent view amongst Christians as well.

On a lesser note, I don't quite get your point here:
I get the desire for purity and how you see that in something beautiful rising out of the muck. But the following escapes me: "It beauty is so pure, that even droplets of water will roll off its petals or leaves." Water will roll off of about anything that doesn't absorb it, be it a lotus petal, a blade or grass, or a mangey dog's back; beauty and purity don't appear to have anything to do with it.

It is the combination of the beauty of the lotus, and it's rising from the muck, and remaining unsoiled by the brackish water, upon which it floats, that makes it a symbol of purity.


Having said that, Hindu Advaita (non-dualism) says that when one has achieved realisation, one will see everything as God, whether it be a lotus, a "mangey dog's back" or a turd.

[Grace Seeker]

"Where does this perception come from?" is not a question for a Hindu to answer.

Fair enough. You cannot answer where it comes from for other people. But perhaps you could tell me how it is that you came to perceive Christianity to teach dualism? Merely the recognition that there is both good and evil in the world is NOT my understanding of what is meant by dualism. I thought that dualism was a belief that there were equal but competing powers of good and evil at war with each other in the world. Is this later description how you understand the Christian view of the world, and if so, how did you arrive at that perception?

[Sarada]

Fair enough. You cannot answer where it comes from for other people. But perhaps you could tell me how it is that you came to perceive Christianity to teach dualism? Merely the recognition that there is both good and evil in the world is NOT my understanding of what is meant by dualism. I thought that dualism was a belief that there were equal but competing powers of good and evil at war with each other in the world. Is this later description how you understand the Christian view of the world, and if so, how did you arrive at that perception?

The short answer is, it is what I was taught in Sunday school.

I remain convinced that many lay Christians have this world view.

However, having researched the issue, I concede that in Christian Theology, there is a fine distinction between absolute dualism and Christain modified moral dualism.

"Ethical or ethicoreligious dualism asserts that there are two mutually hostile forces or beings in the world, the one being the source of all good, the other the source of all evil..... The universe becomes the battleground for these opposing beings, identified respectively with light and darkness....

Christian theology generally accepts a modified moral dualism, recognizing God as supremely good and Satan as a deteriorated creature bent everywhere upon the intrusion of evil. This, however, is not dualism in the sense of its usual definition, since Christian theology does not consider Satan to be ultimate or original, and sees him ultimately excluded from the universe."

H B Kuhn
(Elwell Evangelical Dictionary)

Bibliography
D Runes, Dictionary of Philosophy."



I am not nor do I pretend to be a theologian or an expert on any religion including Hinduism, if you recall, when I was asked to start this thread, I said that I would answer questions on Hinduism to the best of my ability. I have done so, and will continue to do so.

Perhaps the discussion of whether or not Christian Theologians or Christian lay people have a dualistic perspective on God and Satan should be discussed on a more appropriate thread.

[Grace Seeker]

The short answer is, it is what I was taught in Sunday school.

I remain convinced that many lay Christians have this world view.

However, having researched the issue, I concede that in Christian Theology, there is a fine distinction between absolute dualism and Christain modified moral dualism.

"Ethical or ethicoreligious dualism asserts that there are two mutually hostile forces or beings in the world, the one being the source of all good, the other the source of all evil..... The universe becomes the battleground for these opposing beings, identified respectively with light and darkness....

Christian theology generally accepts a modified moral dualism, recognizing God as supremely good and Satan as a deteriorated creature bent everywhere upon the intrusion of evil. This, however, is not dualism in the sense of its usual definition, since Christian theology does not consider Satan to be ultimate or original, and sees him ultimately excluded from the universe."

H B Kuhn
(Elwell Evangelical Dictionary)

Bibliography
D Runes, Dictionary of Philosophy."



I am not nor do I pretend to be a theologian or an expert on any religion including Hinduism, if you recall, when I was asked to start this thread, I said that I would answer questions on Hinduism to the best of my ability. I have done so, and will continue to do so.

Perhaps the discussion of whether or not Christian Theologians or Christian lay people have a dualistic perspective on God and Satan should be discussed on a more appropriate thread.

Sarada, I wasn't trying to debate with you regarding Christian theology. Nonetheless, you had taken the initiative to provide a comparison between Christian beliefs vis-a-vis Hindu beliefs:post #36. However, what you asserted as Christian teaching was not in fact what I understand to be Christian teaching. Now, as you said, you wanted to keep the discussion to Hindu beliefs, as did I. Thus, I didn't even respond to correct what I thought was a mistaken desciption of Christian beliefs. But later, the same thought reasserted itself in another post. As your view of Christianity was impacting the way you as a Hindu related to it, I wanted to know where or how it was that you gained this view.

You have answered it. You believe you came by that view in Sunday school. So, this is not something that Hinduism teaches that Christians believe; it is a vestige of your former Christian education. I'll leave any further discussion about the truth or lack thereof of that view or the nature of your former Christian education for other threads.

[Sarada]

[QUOTE=Grace Seeker;813463]

You have answered it. You believe you came by that view in Sunday school. ... it is a vestige of your former Christian education. ....

Yes, it is what I understood at the time.

So, this is not something that Hinduism teaches that Christians believe

Hindiusm does not give an opinion of what Christians or people of any other religion believe.

Sarada, I wasn't trying to debate with you regarding Christian theology. Nonetheless, you had taken the initiative to provide a comparison between Christian beliefs vis-a-vis Hindu beliefs:post #36. However, what you asserted as Christian teaching was not in fact what I understand to be Christian teaching. Now, as you said, you wanted to keep the discussion to Hindu beliefs, as did I. Thus, I didn't even respond to correct what I thought was a mistaken desciption of Christian beliefs. But later, the same thought reasserted itself in another post....

Although my post on Hindu Christian Point Counter Point (post # 36) (how do I make that a link?) was indeed taken from a Hindu website, the Christian viewpoint was written by the editors of 'Christianity Today'.

"Hindu-Christian Point-Counterpoint: Are all religions really one? Read this point-counterpoint and decide for yourself! This is a list of nine parallel aspects of theology from both faiths, e.g., the concept of Hindu liberation is compared with the Christian concept of salvation. A collaboration between the editors of Hinduism Today and the editors of Christianity Today (who wrote every word of the Christian beliefs), this comparison was printed in Christianity Today to give readers a better understanding of Hinduism."


http://www.himalayanacademy.com/basics/


I should have included that explanation in the original post. I will edit that post accordingly to prevent any future misunderstandings.

As your view of Christianity was impacting the way you as a Hindu related to it, I wanted to know where or how it was that you gained this view.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression, that my view of Christianity's dualism or non-dualism was impacted by my being a Hindu. How I relate to Christianity is based solely on my own experiences as Christian and discussions that I have had with other Christians, before I became a Hindu.

I'll leave any further discussion about the truth or lack thereof of that view or the nature of your former Christian education for other threads

I would be more than happy to gain a better understanding of Christian beliefs. It seems that my level of understanding is incomplete. Is there a thread called "Questions about Christianity answered by a Christian"?

[snakelegs]

namaste,
i am curious - how do the indians act toward the western hindus? are they completely accepted? (of course, i realize that this would pretty much depend on the indivuals you run into.)
i know back in the late 60's and 70's many westerners came to hinduism as a result of their drug experiences. some gave up the drugs, but some continued to use them.

[Sarada]

namaste,
i am curious - how do the indians act toward the western hindus? are they completely accepted? (of course, i realize that this would pretty much depend on the indivuals you run into.)
i know back in the late 60's and 70's many westerners came to hinduism as a result of their drug experiences. some gave up the drugs, but some continued to use them.

A quasi Hinduism has found a home amongst "New Age" beliefs. There are many false gurus who have taken advantage of this and have gained significantly in the finance department. Some of these "New Agers" are what's left of the hippies, the younger ones I would call hippie wannabes. Many actually call themselves Hindus. I have not seen many of these attend a real Hindu temple or a mandir on a regular basis. They seem to be fascinated by the "exotic" and somewhat "esoteric" aspects of South Asian beliefs. I believe that there are people who dabble in Buddhism in a similar way.

As a westerner who is serious about Hinduism, I have been treated with nothing but respect. Any where I go, I am welcomed with open arms. But then Hindus like all South Asians, are very hospitable. As far as complete acceptance is concerned, yes. I feel completely accepted, with the exception, I imagine, of the odd castist. I have not run into any one with castists views here in Toronto, but, I suppose, they must exist.

[Sarada]

Happy Raksha Bandhan! August 28 2007



The chaste bond of love between a brother and a sister is one of the deepest and noblest of human emotions. 'Raksha Bandhan' or 'Rakhi' is a special occasion to celebrate this emotional bonding by tying a holy thread around the wrist. This thread, which pulsates with sisterly love and sublime sentiments, is rightly called the ‘Rakhi’. It means 'a bond of protection', and Raksha Bandhan signifies that the strong must protect the weak from all that’s evil.

The ritual is observed on the full moon day of the Hindu month of Shravan, on which sisters tie the sacred Rakhi string on their brothers' right wrists, and pray for their long life. Rakhis can be elaborately made of silk with gold and silver threads, beautifully crafted embroidered sequins, and studded with semi precious stones; or, a rakhi can be a simple cotton thread.

The Social Binding
This ritual not only strengthens the bond of love between brothers and sisters, but also transcends the confines of the family. When a Rakhi is tied on the wrists of close friends and neighbors, it underscores the need for a harmonious social life, where every individual co-exist peacefully as brothers and sisters. All members of the community commit to protect each other and the society in such congregational Rakhi Utsavs, popularized by the Nobel laureate Bengali poet Rabindranath Tagore.

The Friendly Knot
It won’t be wrong to say the fashionable friendship band in vogue today is an extension of the Rakhi custom. When a girl feels a friend of the opposite sex has developed a kind of love too strong for her to reciprocate, she sends the guy a Rakhi and turns the relationship into a sisterly one. This is one way of saying, "let’s just be friends", without hurting the other person's soft feelings for her.




Rakhi in History
The strong bond represented by Rakhi has resulted in innumerable political ties among kingdoms and princely states. The pages of Indian history testify that the Rajput and Maratha queens have sent Rakhis even to Mughal kings who, despite their differences, have assuaged their Rakhi-sisters by offering help and protection at critical moments and honoured the fraternal bond. Even matrimonial alliances have been established between kingdoms through the exchange of Rakhis.

History has it that the great Hindu King Porus refrained from striking Alexander, the Great because the latter’s wife had approached this mighty adversary and tied a Rakhi on his hand, prior to the battle, urging him not to hurt her husband.

Why Rakhi?
Rituals like Rakhi, there is no doubt, help ease out various societal strains, induce fellow-feeling, open up channels of expression, give us an opportunity to rework on our role as human beings and, most importantly, bring joy in our mundane lives.

[Uthman]

Happy Raksha Bandhan then.

:)

[Grace Seeker]

Happy Raksha Bandhan! August 28 2007



The chaste bond of love between a brother and a sister is one of the deepest and noblest of human emotions. 'Raksha Bandhan' or 'Rakhi' is a special occasion to celebrate this emotional bonding by tying a holy thread around the wrist. This thread, which pulsates with sisterly love and sublime sentiments, is rightly called the ‘Rakhi’. It means 'a bond of protection', and Raksha Bandhan signifies that the strong must protect the weak from all that’s evil.

The ritual is observed on the full moon day of the Hindu month of Shravan, on which sisters tie the sacred Rakhi string on their brothers' right wrists, and pray for their long life.

This sounds like a very cool custom. Is there anything that brothers give to sisters on this or for some other occasion?

[Sarada]

This sounds like a very cool custom. Is there anything that brothers give to sisters on this or for some other occasion?

Sisters prepare a beautiful platter with flowers and a lighted ghee lamp, sweets, and sandalwood or turmeric paste, and the "rakhi" The sister waves the platter slowly in front of her brother to honour "the God within", applies sandalwood or turmeric paste to his forhead, and puts a sweet in his mouth. She will then tie the rakhi to his wrist. If he is older, she will also touch his feet, if he is younger, she will give him a kiss on the cheek.

The brother may wave the light before his sister. If she is older, the brother will touch her feet, if she is younger, he will give her a kiss on the cheek. .
The brother will then put a sweet in his sister's mouth, and give her some money, perhaps along with a flower.

This can be done with biological siblings, or you can choose a "rakhi brother or sister" with whom you have a special bond. This year I am going to initiate my friend of 35 years as my rakhi brother (I am not going to tell him about the brother giving money, because I don't think it is necessary, but it has become customary).

This ritual can be modified to suit anyone's customs or beliefs. One could for example, dispense with the touching of the feet and waving of the lamp.

My brother-in-law, for example, who is a Christian, while his brothers and sisters are Hindus, is accommodated by dispensing with the lamp and the touching of feet.

[Grace Seeker]

Sisters prepare a beautiful platter with flowers and a lighted ghee lamp, sweets, and sandalwood or turmeric paste, and the "rakhi" The sister waves the platter slowly in front of her brother to honour "the God within", applies sandalwood or turmeric paste to his forhead, and puts a sweet in his mouth. She will then tie the rakhi to his wrist. If he is older, she will also touch his feet, if he is younger, she will give him a kiss on the cheek.

The brother may wave the light before his sister. If she is older, the brother will touch her feet, if she is younger, he will give her a kiss on the cheek. .
The brother will then put a sweet in his sister's mouth, and give her some money, perhaps along with a flower.

This can be done with biological siblings, or you can choose a "rakhi brother or sister" with whom you have a special bond. This year I am going to initiate my friend of 35 years as my rakhi brother (I am not going to tell him about the brother giving money, because I don't think it is necessary, but it has become customary).

This ritual can be modified to suit anyone's customs or beliefs. One could for example, dispense with the touching of the feet and waving of the lamp.

My brother-in-law, for example, who is a Christian, while his brothers and sisters are Hindus, is accommodated by dispensing with the lamp and the touching of feet.

So, this honoring is intiated by the sister. If I was Hindu and wanted to communicate to a dear female friend that I wished to honor her as my sister, is there a Hindu way of doing this?

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Is it true that at times your gods fight one another or quarrel?

[Sarada]

So, this honoring is intiated by the sister. If I was Hindu and wanted to communicate to a dear female friend that I wished to honor her as my sister, is there a Hindu way of doing this?

As a Hindu to another Hindu, you would perhaps tell her what she she means to you, and then simply say, "would you be my Rakhi sister?"

As a Hindu to a non-Hindu, you could explain about the ritual and its meaning a little.

As a non-HIndu, you could explain the ritual, and it's meaning, and go from there.

I told my non-Hindu friend, just the other day, that I want to meet him for lunch on Tuesday, because it is a very auspicious day in the Hindu calendar. Then I told him, I wanted to make him and honourary brother.

This is a very elaborate rakhi, but, as every one knows, we Hindus like to go over the top! ;D

[Sarada]

Salaam,

Is it true that at times your gods fight one another or quarrel?

Hindu scriptures can be taken on many levels. Many of the stories were told in an entertaining fashion to illustrate certain principles, and need not be taken literally, there are, of course, other stories like the Ramayana, which we believe are rooted in history.

The battles that took place were battles between the devatas and the asuras (demons), superhuman beings (perhaps a little like Jinn) who represent good and evil. Here is a summary of one such story from the Puranas, this is from Wikipedia wherein the devatas and the asuras, who are enemies, agree to cooperate, then later, the devatas(Adityas) defeat the Asuras:

The Story of Samudra Manthan (the Churning of the Ocean)

The story begins with Indra riding his elephant. He came upon a sage named Durvasa. The sage decided to honor Indra by giving him a scented garland. Indra took the garland, but placed it on the forehead of his elephant. The elephant was irritated by the scent and threw the garland off, trampling on it. The angry sage cursed Indra and the Adityas(Gods)to lose all their wealth. Indra was thus immediately dispossessed of all his wealth and treasures.


Appeal to Brahma

Indra then approached Brahma to help him regain his treasures who suggested him to churn the Ocean of Milk in order to regain his treasures and obtain the Nectar of Immortality. However, such a stupendous task could not be performed by the Adityas (Gods) alone, so they sought the help of their enemies, the Asuras, with the understanding that the Asuras would be allowed to partake a portion of the Amrutha (divine nectar of immortality).


Churning the Milky Ocean

The ocean was churned by using the Mount Mandara as the pole and the King of Snakes, Vasuki, as the rope. The Gods held the tail of the snake while the demons (Asuras) held the head end of the snake and they pulled on it alternately causing the mountain to rotate which in turn churned the ocean. However, once the mountain was placed on the ocean, it began to sink. Then came Vishnu in his second incarnation, in the form of a turtle Kurma, and supported the mountain on his shell back.


Halahal

As the ocean was churned, a deadly poison known as Halahala emerged. This poison threatened to suffocate all living things. In response to various prayers, Shiva drank the poison; his wife Parvati, alarmed, stopped it in his throat with her hands. This caused the throat to turn blue. Due to this, he is called Nīlakantha (nīla = "blue", kantha = "throat"). Then, various treasures (ratnas) emerged from the ocean of milk. The 14 Ratnas were:

Sura, goddess and creator of alcohol
Apsarases, various divine nymphs like Rambha, Menaka
Kaustubha, the most valuable jewel in the world
Uchhaishravas, the divine 7-headed horse
Kalpavriksha, the wish-granting tree
Kamadhenu, the first cow and mother of all other cows
Airavata, the elephant which is the steed of Indra
Lakshmi, the Goddess of Fortune and Wealth
Parijat vriksh (tree)
Halahala or Kaalkut poison
Chandra, the moon
Dhanvantari with
Amrita

The nectar of immortality(Amrit)

Finally, Dhanvantari, the Heavenly Physician, emerged with a pot containing amrita, the heavenly nectar of immortality. As the Asuras rushed to take the nectar, the frightened Adityas appealed to Vishnu, who then took the form of Mohini. As a beautiful and enchanting damsel, Mohini distracted the Asuras, took the amrita, and distributed it amongst the Adityas who drank it. One Asura, Rahu, disguised himself as an Aditya, and drank some Nectar. But before the Nectar could pass his throat, Mohini cut off his head with Her Sudarshana Chakra. The head, due to its contact with the amrita, remained immortal. It is believed that this immortal head occasionally swallows the sun or the moon, causing eclipses. Then, the sun or moon passes through the opening at the neck, ending the eclipse.

The story ends with the rejuvenated Adityas defeating the Asuras.


Symbolism of Samudra Manthan

The story represents the spiritual endeavor of a person to achieve self-realisation through concentration of mind, withdrawal of senses, control of desires and practice of austerities and asceticism.

The Devas and Asuras represent the positives and negatives respectively of one's personality. The participation of both the Devas and the Asuras signifies that when one is seeking bliss through spiritual practice, one has to integrate and harmonise both the positive and negative aspects and put both the energies to work for the common goal.
The ocean of milk is the mind or the human consciousness. The mind is like an ocean while the thoughts and emotions are the waves in the ocean.
Mandhara, the mountain symbolises concentration. The word Mandhara is made up of two words Mana (mind) and Dhara (a single line) which means holding the mind in one line. This is possible only by concentration.
Mount Mandhara was upheld by Lord Vishnu as a Kurma (tortoise). The tortoise here symbolises the withdrawal of the senses into oneself (just as a tortoise withdraws its head into its shell) as one practices mental concentration and meditation or contemplation.
Vasuki symbolises desire. Vasuki used in the churning of the ocean denotes that the Devas and the demons held desire (to seek immortality) as a rope and churned the mind with the help of concentration and withdrawal of the senses. Desire, if not controlled will overpower and destroy an individual.
The Halahala poison symbolises suffering and pain (counter-reaction of the mind and body) that one undergoes at the beginning of spiritual sadhana (practice). When the mind is subjected to intense concentration, the first thing that comes out of the process is intense suffering and great inner turmoil. These must be resolved otherwise further progress is not possible.
Lord Shiva symbolises the ascetic principle. His role in this story as the consumer of poison suggests that one can deal with the early problems of spiritual life by cultivating the qualities of Lord Shiva, namely, courage, initiative, willingness, discipline, simplicity, austerity, detachment, compassion, pure love and asceticism.
The various precious objects that come out of the ocean during the churning stand for the psychic or spiritual powers (Siddhis) which one gains as s/he progresses spiritually from stage to stage. The seeker should be careful about these powers as they can hamper her/his progress unless s/he uses them judiciously, not for selfish gains but for others' welfare. This is the reason why the Gods and demons distributed these objects as they did not want to lose sight of their original aim which was to gain immortality.
Dhanvantari symbolises health and signifies that immortality (longevity, to be correct) or spiritual success can be achieved only when the body and the mind are in a perfect state of health.
Mohini symbolises delusion of the mind in the form of (or originating from) pride. It is the pride of achievement to which the asuras or the demons succumbed and thus lost sight of their goal. Pride and egoism are the last hurdles one has to overcome in spiritual life before experiencing self-realisation.
The Amrit symbolises the ultimate achievement of the goal of self-realisation.

[snakelegs]

A quasi Hinduism has found a home amongst "New Age" beliefs. There are many false gurus who have taken advantage of this and have gained significantly in the finance department. Some of these "New Agers" are what's left of the hippies, the younger ones I would call hippie wannabes. Many actually call themselves Hindus. I have not seen many of these attend a real Hindu temple or a mandir on a regular basis. They seem to be fascinated by the "exotic" and somewhat "esoteric" aspects of South Asian beliefs. I believe that there are people who dabble in Buddhism in a similar way.

As a westerner who is serious about Hinduism, I have been treated with nothing but respect. Any where I go, I am welcomed with open arms. But then Hindus like all South Asians, are very hospitable. As far as complete acceptance is concerned, yes. I feel completely accepted, with the exception, I imagine, of the odd castist. I have not run into any one with castists views here in Toronto, but, I suppose, they must exist.

that's cool!
thanks for your reply. yes - i know a bit about the "new age" type - my godson is one of them, got "om" tatooed on his back and the whole bit! :hmm:
your answer reminded me of something else i've wondered. where do non-hindus/non-south asians fit in the caste system - are they automatically regarded as outcastes by those that still concern themselves with caste?

[Sarada]

that's cool!
thanks for your reply. yes - i know a bit about the "new age" type - my godson is one of them, got "om" tatooed on his back and the whole bit! :hmm:
your answer reminded me of something else i've wondered. where do non-hindus/non-south asians fit in the caste system - are they automatically regarded as outcastes by those that still concern themselves with caste?

I am not really qualified to answer this question, since I have no experience with the caste system and have never been to India, except to say the caste system as it is presently in India, is a social construct. See my HUMUNGOUS reply in an earlier post#136:


http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post810418

On a personal level, I am married to a Hindu from Guyana (His grandfather arrived in Guyana from Uttar Pradesh in 1900). His family do not know what caste they belong to. There are Christians, Hindus and Muslims within his/our family. We treat every one with the same love and respect.


Not everything within a culture can be ascribed to the dominant religion.

Take the prevalence and social importance of beer drinking in Germany, should we say that is based on Christian scripture?


There is, however, and article about the present day status of the caste system in India in Wikipedia that you might wish to read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_...e_caste_system

[snakelegs]

thanks sarada.
it is really hard to separate religion and culture. (same thing with islam).
caste is strictly taboo in islam and sikhism. yet sadly, south asians still practice it, though to a lesser degree.
it seems like it is a hard thing to completely get rid of.

[snakelegs]

as a hindu, are you encouraged to learn sanskrit? like do they offer courses at temples?

[Muslim Woman]

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh



(May the peace, mercy and blessings of God Almighty be upon you)

**


1.What’s the main differences between Hindu’s & Christians Trinity ?




2.What’s the difference between Lord & God ?


sorry ..did not follow the thread. If these are already answered ...just ignored


verses we all need for this life & the hereafter



'Did you think that We had created you without any purpose and that you would never return to Us (for accountability)?'



-Quran (23:115)

[Sarada]

as a hindu, are you encouraged to learn sanskrit? like do they offer courses at temples?

It is not the same as in Islam, where it is stressed that one should learn Arabic, so that one can read the Qu'ran in its original form. Learning Sanskrit is not stressed nearly as much amongst lay people in Hinduism, and that is unfortunate.

It's a little different, as Sanskrit is not so much an actively spoken language (much the same as Latin in Christianity). It is not easy to find a place to learn Sanskrit, or even the Vedas in English. One pretty much has to be a scholar of Sanatana Dharma to gain access to this knowlwdge.

For centuries, Brahmins have kept this knowledge secret. This is one of the many negative aspects of the caste system. With the advent of the internet, however, things are changing. Those Brahmins and Sannyasins who are more forward thinking are posting these things on the internet, and slowly, it is becoming more available to the masses.

[Sarada]

The quotes are from a post in athread called "Considering Islam"

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...tml#post821556

Salaam, Michael

I have posted my answer to your quote in this forum, because this is a more appropriate place for a discussion on Hinduism

Actually, I have done quite a bit of reading about Hinduism. I have read the first few chapters of Bhagavad Gita, some of the first canto of the Bhagavata Purana, the first book of the Ramayana, a little of the Shiva Purana, and stories about the various Hindu "gods", especially Krishna. I actually identified as a Hindu for a point in my life and prayed to the Hindu "gods". I was also involved with Hare Krishna for almost a year, and attended services at their temple. So as a result of this, I actually know more about the theology and teachings of Hinduism than my girlfriend, who was raised a Hindu in Malaysia.


I posted the relevant quote from the Bhagavata Purana, showing how the divine can incarnate in those eight forms. When I visited the Hare Krishna temple, I was told that the "deities" (statues) were really God/Krishna. They were woken with prayers, bathed, dressed in special clothes, had food prepared for them, had a special ritual called the 'arati' offered to them at various times during the day, and put to sleep at night by various prayers.

If this isn't idol worship, then I don't know what is.

The statement that Hindus are idol worshippers can only come from an incomplete and rudimentary understanding of what Hinduism really is.

One year of being involved with ISKCON, a very small segment of Hinduism, hardly makes one an expert. There are many stages and levels of understanding in Sanatana Dharma, and it takes years of intense spiritual practice to progress from stage to stage. In the early stages, often, Brahman is seen as Saguna (in various forms), but as one progresses, one eventually experiences Brahman as Nirguna (formless).

[Sarada]

Moved to: Considering Islam

[NoName55]

salam all,

has any one asked about worship of shiva lingum and kali mata yet?

[Michael]

Sarada,

What about the Shiva Lingam? I've heard that this is a representation of Shiva's penis.

It just seems strange to worship a god in the form of his penis.

[snakelegs]

For centuries, Brahmins have kept this knowledge secret. This is one of the many negative aspects of the caste system. With the advent of the internet, however, things are changing. Those Brahmins and Sannyasins who are more forward thinking are posting these things on the internet, and slowly, it is becoming more available to the masses.

good!
i think sanskrit may be the oldest of all the indo-european languages.
there are a number of sanskrit words in urdu, the language i am trying to teach myself and of course, many more in hindi. (which also uses a sanksrit derived script).

[north_malaysian]

Sarada,

What about the Shiva Lingam? I've heard that this is a representation of Shiva's penis.

It just seems strange to worship a god in the form of his penis.

I think the "lingam" represents fertility.

[NoName55]

I think the "lingam" represents fertility.

I think the question was about the worship of the said object

[north_malaysian]

I think the question was about the worship of the said object

ok.... they want to ask for fertility so they worship an object that "represents" spirituality... who knows... I've heard that there is a symbol of woman's private part being worship too...

Maybe we should wait for Sarada.:thumbs_up

[Sarada]

Salaam, Sisters and Brothers, http://www.shaivam.org/shplinga.htm

I was wondering when and who would bring up the subject of the LINGAM.


The Shiva Lingam is the most sacred symbol of Lord Shiva that is used to worship him by his devotees. The sanskrit word li.ngam means symbol, so Shiva Lingam means symbol of Lord Shiva.

It is considered the foremost sacred symbol for shaivaites and has been used as a focus for worship for thousands of years. The purANas like The Shiva MahA PurANam discuss about the superiority of li.nga worship.

[NoName55]

^^ ROFL Some of us were raised surrounded by hindus for first 20 or so years of our life in a hindu majority country and have some firsthand experience and have working knowledge of their deities, terminology and rituals as well as having seen them lynching people suspected of slaughtering gao mata. And wont be taken in by all these fraudulent posts. Then others of us will believe any old rubbish, while some others will just pretend to be all lovey dovey and will let you promote any ole tripe as long as you give them approval and praise them.

wa salam to all

[Michael]

The story that I heard ran something like this.

A group of sages sought out Shiva, asking for enlightenment. But Shiva thought that the sages were still too prone to anger, so he refused them and then went and seduced their wives. When the sages heard about this they were furious and castrated Shiva. However, the whole cosmos shuddered and went dark. Realizing their mistake, the sages immediately started worshipping Shiva's penis, and then light returned to the world and everything was all right. From then on, the worship of Shiva's penis has played a big part in Hindu worship.

I can't entirely remember all the details of this story, but I read it in a book called The Hidden Glory of India that I purchased from the Hare Krishna temple in Christchurch. I can't find my copy at the moment, so what I'm writing comes entirely from memory and I could have made mistakes.

While 'lingam' may mean 'symbol', it also means 'penis'. In the Kama Sutra, the word lingam is used in contexts when it is quite clearly referring to a man's sexual organ.

[Michael]

Sanskrit is one of the oldest languages. It is also one of the most complex. It contains eight cases (changes to the endings of nouns to show grammatical functions), three numbers (singular, dual and plural, like Arabic), and three genders (masculine, feminine and neuter). There are also ten classes of verbs, and the whole Sanskrit verb system looks extremely complicated (even to me, and I've studied Latin and Ancient Greek).

[Muslim Woman]

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh


(May the peace, mercy and blessings of God Almighty be upon you)

Salaam, Sisters and Brothers, http://www.shaivam.org/shplinga.htm

.

i just visited & read few lines.


When those two great gods were fighting between themselves,
the Greatest of all Lord shiva


--i read earlier that they are 3 in 1 God. But this link is telling that Shiva is the greatest . Will u explain it ?


I dont remember from where i got this link .


http://www.hatkeshver.org/history.html


I found the story how Shiva became stone here like this.



The Brahmins became very angry with Lord Shiva and they prepared a weapon, "Brahmashtra" of "Darbhshalak" and used it against Lord Shiva.



Hence Lord Shiva were transformed into "Shiv-linga" and fell on earth


.....Lord Brahma requested prayer said to Lord Shiva to become a Golden "Shiv-linga" and that He (Lord Brahma) shall worship it.


I dont understand ...how human being can use a weapon against Greatest of all Lord shiva ? Why one Lord needs to worship other Lord ?



hope u did not find my questions irritating. I can understand , it needs a lot of patinece to ans so many questions . so , pl. take ur time.



verses we all need for this life & the hereafter



'Did you think that We had created you without any purpose and that you
would never return to us (for accountability)?'

-Quran (23:115)

[Michael]

The Hindus worship a lot of different gods. They are all part of the one Brahman, who, as far as I have read, is an impersonal "God", but actually more like the Dao (Tao) in Daoism (Taoism) or the Force in Star Wars. All of these 33 million gods are part of Brahman.

[Michael]

Sarada,

When I was in ISKCON, I read that there are three aspects of God: Brahman, the impersonal God, Paramatma, the God in every living heart, and Bhagavan, the personal God. Is this a view that is held by normal Hindus as well?

[Michael]

I found my book, and yes, I did make a few mistakes in the story of Shiva, so I'll write the whole thing out here.

One day Parvati, Shiva's consort, took pity on a group of sages performing severe austerities in their forest dwelling. She asked Shiva to give them realization and release them from their penance. But Shiva refused, saying the sages were still prone to anger. To prove this he appeared in the forest as a handsome yogi and seduced the sages' wives. Incensed, the sages attacked Shiva and castrated him. But as soon as they did this Shiva disappeared and the entire cosmos started to shake. The sages, recognising their impudence, begged Shiva to forgive them and calm the world. Shiva agreed, on the condition that the sages, from that time forward, worship him in the form of his lingam.

I've seen Shiva Linga before that are placed on a stone base representing the yoni or vagina. Is this a reference to sacred sexuality?

[Sarada]

Sarada,

When I was in ISKCON, I read that there are three aspects of God: Brahman, the impersonal God, Paramatma, the God in every living heart, and Bhagavan, the personal God. Is this a view that is held by normal Hindus as well?

They are all the same God. Because God is Infinite, and Transcendent we human beings cannot ever totally understand God. Each Hindu sees God and approaches God according to his level of spiritual understanding, his circumstances, his needs, and his temperament.

Consider for a example, a brilliant cut diamond. It is many faceted, and we cannot see all of the facets at the same time. So, we admire that part of the diamond that we see, we turn it, and admire the beauty of some other facets of the diamond. So it is with God, we worship that aspect of God that we can relate to at any given time.

[Sarada]

^^ ROFL Some of us were raised surrounded by hindus for first 20 or so years of our life in a hindu majority country and have some firsthand experience and have working knowledge of their deities, terminology and rituals as well as having seen them lynching people suspected of slaughtering gao mata. And wont be taken in by all these fraudulent posts. Then others of us will believe any old rubbish, while some others will just pretend to be all lovey dovey and will let you promote any ole tripe as long as you give them approval and praise them.

wa salam to all

I can see why you call yourself the annoyed one, and I am sorry that you had such terrible experiences. Just as there are Muslims who commit violence in the name of Islam, there are also Hindus who do the same. People are people, no one group of people better than another.

My posts are not rubbish nor are they fraudulent. They are based on my understanding of what Sanatana Dharma is, and my experiences living within the West Indian Hindu community for several decades.

If you truly believe this thread to be rubbish and fraudulent, then ask the moderators to have it removed and have me banned from this forum.

I pray that some day you will overcome the anger that is destroying you from within, and achieve peace within yourself.

If one does not have peace within oneself, how can one experience it in the outside world?

[Sarada]

Many people who have replied to this thread are missing the whole point of Hinduism, or Sanatana Dharma. It is not about ancient mythology. The stories in our Hindu Scriptures, as I have said many times, are not meant to be taken literally. They are symbolic of concepts and ideas.

I will not answer and try to explain every myth that you can come up with. There are thousands of myths within Hinduism, I agree; but that is not the essence of our faith.

A friend of mine put it much more eloquently than I ever could.

We offer you and the female quality respect...without such none of us would be on this earth.
In the Rig Veda, some of the best hymns are cognized from females.
Of the 400 (+/-) kavi's ~ 25 are female.

Many know that I am not a big fan of this word Hinduism - I can see how the name came about, yet believe a more accurate, pehaps noble name(s) are:
Sanatana Dharma - eternally that which upholds (Dhr)
Vaidika Dharma - the knoweldge or Dharma ( that which uphold) from the Veda
Arsa ( some write Aarsa) Dharma - the Dharma of the rishi's

If one asked me, of all the things you can discuss of this Sanatana Dharma i.e the lessons of the srutis, smrtis, itihasas, puranas, agmas and darsanas - what is the most practical and useful for modern man?

It would be ( for me) one or two lines of the Bhagavad Gita and if blossomed would change the individual in a nimesha (blink of an eye). Kesava's words to Arjuna: (Chapt 2.46 Gita) Yogastha kuru karmani - Established in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma).
This is the wisdom of the ages - this one thing is the foundation for a successful and balanced being on this earth... for a successful and balanced society. If one accomplishes this 'union' all has been accomplished. One is united with the SELF (Chapt 2.50) established in brahman. The vedas are of no more use (says Krsna) then a small well in a place flooded on every side (2.46).

Why is this of value? one gains skill in action - there no longer is any binding force back to the native. Each action is supported by the laws of creation, they are on your side... you operate from the level of the SELF e.g. balanced intellect, the art of living beyond or untethered from the 3 gunas - skill in action.

A most practical life as the gunas act within the field of the gunas and the native rests in the Universal Self.

And what of a town or society that achieves this balance? the rains come on time, the earth gives its best offers of crops, there is no crime, there is no upheavals. This is the offer of the balance, this is the most practical thing one could consider as the benefit of this Dharma coming to fruition.

The essence of Sanatana Dharma is to achieve union (yoga) with God and perform righteous actions

I am tired of answering petty questions by people who wish to slander my faith.

There is a lot I do not agree with in Islam, and some of it I find to be abhorrent. But out of respect for the faith of others, and out of the humililty that comes from knowing that I do not have a full understanding of Islam, I choose not to insult or pick at the details of your faith.

I had hoped that you would do the same, and ask me intelligent, thoughtful questions. (Which some of you have, Snakelegs, Woodrow and Grace Seeker are some that come to mind.) However, most of you have your minds in the gutter when it comes to asking questions.

I will act on what Swami Vivekananda said around the turn of the 19th century. He was a person who believed that someday there would be an understanding and acceptance of the common ground that is the basis for all religions, when stripped of their cultural and historical baggage.

That is what I was trying to achieve here. To show that people no matter what their belief, have the same yearnings: to be close to God, to have inner peace, to love and be loved not only romantically but by their families and friends (perhaps even transform their enemies into friends). To live in peace and harmony.

If I go by the majority of the questions that I have received on this thread,
Swami-ji and I must be dillusional. I see very little respect for my faith on this forum.

So as Swami-ji said, "Condemn none: if you can stretch out a helping hand, do so. If you cannot, fold your hands, bless your brothers, and let them go their own way. "

I do not condemn you, as most of you are in a state of misunderstanding, but I cannot help you. Therefore, I fold my hands, ask God to bless you, and let you go your own way.

May God grant you all the peace and harmony that you seek.



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