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Hashim_507
08-08-2007, 03:14 PM
THE HAGUE — MP Geert Wilders, the leader of the far right Freedom Party, pressed Wednesday, August 8, for banning the Noble Qur’an in the Netherlands, drawing immediate rebuke from the government.
"Ban this wretched book like "Mein Kampf" is banned," Wilders wrote in a letter published in the local De Volkskrant newspaper and cited by Agence France-Presse (AFP).

Adolph Hitler's Mein Kampf outlines the future Nazi dictator's racist ideology It has been banned in the Netherlands since the end of World War II.

"Send a signal to…Islamic radicals that the Qur’an cannot be used in the Netherlands as an inspiration or an excuse for violence," wrote MP Wilders, whose party holds nine seats in the 150-member parliament.

He claimed that the Muslim holy book has no place in "our constitutional state," claiming that the Qur’an asks Muslims to persecute or kill non-Muslims and to establish an Islamic state by force.

"I have been saying this for years: there is no such thing as a moderate Islam," wrote the far-right lawmaker.

"I am fed up with Islam in the Netherlands: no more Muslim immigrants allowed.

"I am fed up with the worship of Allah and Muhammad in the Netherlands: no more mosques."

Earlier this year, Wilders pressed for a no-confidence vote against Muslim ministers Ahmed Aboutaleb and Nebahat Albayrak, questioning their loyalty to the Netherlands.

He has also campaigned to ban the building of new mosques and halt all Muslim immigration.

Muslims make up one million of the Netherlands’s 16 million population.



Rebuked, Sued




The government swiftly condemned the remarks as damaging for community relations and said the proposal was unworthy of consideration.

"It has to be perfectly clear that banning the Qur’an in the Netherlands is not up for discussion for this government and will not be up for discussion in future," Integration Minister Ella Vogelaar said in a statement.

"We have freedom or religion here."

Vogelaar described Wilders' call as "an insult to the majority of Muslims in the Netherlands and abroad who reject calls to hate and violence."

The anti-terrorism chief had recently warned the MP that his repeated anti-Islam remarks were going too far and were stoking anger in the Middle East.

Ayhan Tonca, chairman of the Muslim umbrella group, ridiculed the allegations about the Muslim holy book.

"This is a ridiculous idea," he was quoted as saying by Reuters.

He accused the far-right MP of playing the anti-Islam card for political gains.

"There is not much news at the moment so he is trying to create some.

"This is typical Wilders."

Lawyer Els Lucas was not satisfied with words and took action against the controversial MP.

He filed a legal complaint against the MP for "insulting a section of the community".

The offence is punishable with a maximum sentence of two years in prison and a fine of up to 16,750 euros (23,065 dollars).

The Dutch public prosecutor's office will have to decide whether or not to go ahead with a court case against Wilders.

"I think he has gone too far and it is unseemly that a member of parliament expresses himself like this," Lucas told the ANP news agency.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...News/NWELayout
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Muezzin
08-08-2007, 04:02 PM
Nice to see such unprofessional nuttiness is not tolerated by the Dutch government.
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ISLAMASWEENEY
08-08-2007, 04:06 PM
I used to love Holland but they are acting a bit strange lately arnt they?.
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czgibson
08-08-2007, 04:07 PM
Greetings,

That pretty illiberal for the Netherlands!

Peace
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Muezzin
08-08-2007, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ISLAMASWEENEY
I used to love Holland but they are acting a bit strange lately arnt they?.
This was just one MP who was swiftly put in his place.
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ISLAMASWEENEY
08-08-2007, 04:16 PM
Yes i know but Holland always struck me as a peaceful respectful country.
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Amadeus85
08-08-2007, 07:19 PM
Unless mainstream politicians take care of immigration, populists and radicals like Wilders would be popular. Or maybe the mainstream politicians take over the ideas of the radicals, like Sarkozy stole some ideas from Le Pen.
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NobleMuslimUK
08-08-2007, 08:48 PM
Is Amster**** and Rotter**** part of Holland?
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ISLAMASWEENEY
08-08-2007, 08:48 PM
Holland wants to withdraw from Afghanistan aswell.
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ISLAMASWEENEY
08-08-2007, 08:49 PM
Yes Amsterdam is the capital and Rotterdam is a big port city brother.
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Bittersteel
08-08-2007, 10:29 PM
wow....amazing...this world never ceases to amaze me....man couldn't believe in Holland?uh well maybe Muslims don't interact well with the Dutch;Muslims in general being conservative whereas the Dutch lead a liberal lifestyle,not much in common.
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The_Prince
08-09-2007, 12:39 AM
i actually enjoyed this story because its more positive than negative, one idiot came and said something stupid, the good thing is that he was swiftly condemned by others and may get sued now, so its good. at least these folks didnt come out saying ah yes free speech respect it!
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Darkseid
08-09-2007, 01:39 AM
It is because Islam is acknoweldged as being a cult rather than being an actual religion in some parts of the world and here is why.

1) Strict loyalty
2) Never able to leave, unless wanting to die by someone else's hands or facing up to an infinity of years in prison
3) Conversion of people often against their will in many parts of the world
4) Promotes oppression and immediant change in governments, often for the worst for a particular group of people
5) Promotes theocracy
6) Promotes Pan-Arabism, which is a fascist practice
7) Disacknowledges Scientific discoveries such as evolution

But do no fear, most of Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism acts much like a similar cult.

And here is something to rant about.

If they are willing to have the bible in the Netherlands then they should be willing to have the koran in the netherlands.

Perhaps the true reason is that the koran isn't translated into dutch and therefore is seen as an outside influence to the cultural integrity of the Dutch Lands.
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Talha777
08-09-2007, 03:18 AM
It is because Islam is acknoweldged as being a cult rather than being an actual religion in some parts of the world and here is why.

1) Strict loyalty
Strict loyalty is a sign of a cult? Tell me one religion which preaches back-biting and betrayal, and I'll tell you that it is a "cult".

2) Never able to leave, unless wanting to die by someone else's hands or facing up to an infinity of years in prison
Problem is that Christianity preaches the same thing, a mere glance at the Bible you'll find

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death (deuteronomy 13:6-10)

So as you can clearly read, the Bible, which Christians regard as the infallible or otherwise inspired word of God, preaches that if one of your own family member, even if it is your son stops worshipping the one God and worships false gods and idols, you are to put him to death by stoning. So why are you singling out Islam? Why don't you consider Christianity to be a cult?

3) Conversion of people often against their will in many parts of the world
Islam does not teach forced conversion, if it happens, it is against the teaching of the Holy Quran: Let there be no compulsion in religion (2:256)

4) Promotes oppression and immediant change in governments, often for the worst for a particular group of people
Flat out wrong. It seems your knowledge of Islam is quite embarrassing.

5) Promotes theocracy
If by theocracy you mean an Islamic government, where the shariah is the law of the land, and the government's duty is to enforce and safeguard it, yes Islam promotes theocracy. Other religions, however, also promote theocracy, which explains the existence of the CHRISTIAN democratic parties in Europe, and the Religion Right's influence in American politics and government. So I ask you again, why solely pick on Islam and not Christianity? And what about Hinduism, the third largest religion after Islam and christianity. Hindu religious political parties have massive clout in India, such as the Bharatiya Janatha Party (BJP), the Shiv Sena (SS), the Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Bajrang Dal, the RSS, and whole range of other major and minor political movements whose sole aspiration is Hindu religious dominance in the field of government in India. So by your definition, the three largest religions in the world are "Cults". But why stop there, even Sri Lankan Buddhists want a theocracy there. So what exactly is a religion in your definition? Bahaism? Give me a break.

6) Promotes Pan-Arabism, which is a fascist practice
Not only does Islam NOT promote pan-arabism, but it is against all forms of ethnic nationalism and tribalism and the false pride in one's lineage or race.

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (49:13)

Once again, another case of complete ignorance on your part.

7) Disacknowledges Scientific discoveries such as evolution
Islam does not disapprove of scientific discoveries, but since when is evolution a scientific discovery? A large segment of Christians completely reject evolution, because their Bible says God created mankind some six thousand years ago with Adam and Eve. Is Christianity a cult for rejecting evolution as well?
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Abdul-Raouf
08-09-2007, 03:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hashim_507

Muslims make up one million of the Netherlands’s 16 million population.


A country with 6% muslims... how can they ban the muslim holy book.. i hope not
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Talha777
08-09-2007, 03:43 AM
Is it in the name of "liberal secular humanism" that this Dutch MP (and many Dutch Christians like him) want to ban the Holy Quran? Because if that is so, why are they not making similar demands for the Bible to be censured? The Bible, particularly some "notorious" Old Testament passages call for aggressive violence, genocide, and killing of idolatrous apostates, as well as adulterers and even those who curse their parents, by stoning them to death. This may sound like Islam, but its actually the Bible, the supposedly number one bestseller in the world.

I believe that the Dutch, and many in Europe have not yet rid themselves of their racial prejudice towards non-whites and non-christians. They are still afflicted with the disease of false pride in one's heritage. They have become so secularized and immoral that they are reluctant to adhere to the traditional lifestyle of marriage and family, and the effects of this foolish culture is that their numbers have diminished and with widespread immigration, especially from Muslim countries, they feel threatened. Threatened about their sinful way of life with all those strict and austere Muslims having large families and slowly gaining in influence and power. Threatened furthermore by the fact that their own youth raised in an unclean and impious environment are attracted to Islam, a religion of discipline and excellent moral guidance, and are converting in large numbers by the grace of Allah.

This is the root of European far-right reaction and disdain for Islam, in case anyone was wandering.
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believer
08-09-2007, 05:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul-Raouf
A country with 6% muslims... how can they ban the muslim holy book.. i hope not
I have lived in Holland 2 times and I know one reason why this Minister wants the Noble Qur'an banned in the Netherlands....

First of all... we have to know that Dutch are natural Beer Drinkers... they drink not to get drunk... but it is part of their culture. IN fact, one of their biggest industry is the Beer Brewering Industry like Heineken and Amstel to name some. the 6% of Muslims will of course multiply by means of birth and entrophy... We are talking about - Economic Sabotage here for the Alchohol Industry.

THe Dutch are a Merry and Fun-loving people, and they are serious about keeping their rights to have fun in tact.

Islam do not encourage the government to kick off people out of their houses when they are not able to pay a loan in the bank or fall short in their rents... In Holland... there are many incidents that when the government had problems putting Muslims out of their houses... Because, as a Muslim, you will die fighting defending your properties. This has been the complaint of Dutch bailifts and police.

This is probably some of the reasons why this Dutch PM acted that way. Little does he know. It is only the ignorant about the Qur'an that repels it.
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don532
08-09-2007, 05:38 AM
My employer has had an office in the Netherlands for many years. I have spent a considerable amount of time there. The Dutch pride themselves on tolerance, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and multiculturalism. I think this guy calling for a ban on the koran is more of a political act, not a matter of Christian vs. Muslim.

A significant even in Holland was the killing of the filmmaker van gogh there in 2004 by a muslim offended by one of van gogh's films, and the death threats made to the woman who scripted the film. The film was definitely made to infuriate muslims, as was van gogh's style, but this has given these radicals a foothold there. Murder and death threats over a film, no matter how offensive, go against what most Dutch people believe is a reasonable reaction.

They found this particularly shocking and haven't gotten over it. They might have let it go if the murder was simply a lone nut case, but the fatwahs calling for the killing of the woman who scripted the film, has made many Dutch believe this was not the act of a loner, rather how Muslims react to being offended, in general.

The call for banning of the koran by some right wing guy is not a "Christian" reaction in Holland. It is a reaction by some people who feel threatened by a culture they are afraid is immigrating into their country and using their religion to justify violence. According to the Dutch folks I know, it is violence they are concerned about, not the worship of God in mosques as opposed to churches.

I've known, and still know, quite a number of Dutch citizens. Most do not attend church, or even call themselves Christians. Non muslim does not equal Christian. It's good this guy was put in his place. I think we can only hope cooler heads will continue to prevail on all sides and get along without violence.
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Malaikah
08-09-2007, 06:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
1) Strict loyalty
2) Never able to leave, unless wanting to die by someone else's hands or facing up to an infinity of years in prison
3) Conversion of people often against their will in many parts of the world
4) Promotes oppression and immediant change in governments, often for the worst for a particular group of people
5) Promotes theocracy
6) Promotes Pan-Arabism, which is a fascist practice
7) Disacknowledges Scientific discoveries such as evolution
What the... man if you didn't already say this was meant to be about Islam, I would have had no idea which religion you were talking about. Talk about misinformed!
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KAding
08-09-2007, 08:19 AM
Wilders is clearly going nuts lately, he is radicalizing by the minute. I'm not sure what motivates him, maybe it's just political strategy. But I can't really believe that to be honest, he's going too far with statements like these. It might also have something to do with the way he has been forced to live for the last few years, under constant protection and death threats. He appears convinced that Islam is a dangerous political ideology similar to Fascism. Some branches of political Islam might well have some similarities with Fascism, but to call for the prohibition of the Qu'ran is madness and contrary to Dutch religious tradition.
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KAding
08-09-2007, 08:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
Is it in the name of "liberal secular humanism" that this Dutch MP (and many Dutch Christians like him) want to ban the Holy Quran?
I'm not sure he is a Christian though. I've never heard him refer to God, so I think he's an agnostic. What other 'many Dutch Christians' want to ban the Qu'ran btw? Like whom? I've never heard anyone suggest that.

Because if that is so, why are they not making similar demands for the Bible to be censured? The Bible, particularly some "notorious" Old Testament passages call for aggressive violence, genocide, and killing of idolatrous apostates, as well as adulterers and even those who curse their parents, by stoning them to death. This may sound like Islam, but its actually the Bible, the supposedly number one bestseller in the world.
Agreed. Both books can be pretty shocking at times. Thats no reason to ban it of course.

I believe that the Dutch, and many in Europe have not yet rid themselves of their racial prejudice towards non-whites and non-christians. They are still afflicted with the disease of false pride in one's heritage. They have become so secularized and immoral that they are reluctant to adhere to the traditional lifestyle of marriage and family, and the effects of this foolish culture is that their numbers have diminished and with widespread immigration, especially from Muslim countries, they feel threatened. Threatened about their sinful way of life with all those strict and austere Muslims having large families and slowly gaining in influence and power. Threatened furthermore by the fact that their own youth raised in an unclean and impious environment are attracted to Islam, a religion of discipline and excellent moral guidance, and are converting in large numbers by the grace of Allah.

This is the root of European far-right reaction and disdain for Islam, in case anyone was wandering.
I hear you basically agree with Wilders then? :uuh: He also believes all those Muslims are a threat to our way of life. He also believes a 'tsunami of Muslims' is overflowing the Netherlands. It is amazing how extremists on both sides basically make the same analysis. While the moderates are saying we can coexist, the extremist keep insisting Islam will destroy Dutch culture if not stopped.

Anyway, they feel threatened alright. But then again, so would any society that has to deal with such a large number of economic and political immigrants. And unlike other immigrants, Muslims almost exclusively marry inside the group, most even get their brides from the country of their parents. Muslims are not integrating well, this is causing a lot of friction. A lot more then with other big immigrant groups, like Surinam's, Indians or Chinese.
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yigiter187
08-09-2007, 08:44 AM
from where do you think the command came to ban qoran...may it be from a place in italy from err..
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guyabano
08-09-2007, 08:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by believer
I have lived in Holland 2 times and I know one reason why this Minister wants the Noble Qur'an banned in the Netherlands....

First of all... we have to know that Dutch are natural Beer Drinkers... they drink not to get drunk... but it is part of their culture. IN fact, one of their biggest industry is the Beer Brewering Industry like Heineken and Amstel to name some. the 6% of Muslims will of course multiply by means of birth and entrophy... We are talking about - Economic Sabotage here for the Alchohol Industry.

THe Dutch are a Merry and Fun-loving people, and they are serious about keeping their rights to have fun in tact.

Islam do not encourage the government to kick off people out of their houses when they are not able to pay a loan in the bank or fall short in their rents... In Holland... there are many incidents that when the government had problems putting Muslims out of their houses... Because, as a Muslim, you will die fighting defending your properties. This has been the complaint of Dutch bailifts and police.

This is probably some of the reasons why this Dutch PM acted that way. Little does he know. It is only the ignorant about the Qur'an that repels it.
Good Post, and you are right. But tell me, is that really surprising you? Supposed, you live in an muslim country living strictly islamic. Now comes a bunch of christians and start to 'multiply' and claim their rights, would you act the same way, just in an islamic way and ban bible, etc ?

be honest !
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yigiter187
08-09-2007, 09:05 AM
retaliation to holland should came from islamic countries by banning bible...iran will do for sure,but if only turkey would do :(
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KAding
08-09-2007, 09:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by yigiter187
from where do you think the command came to ban qoran...may it be from a place in italy from err..
What do you mean? From the Vatican? I really don't you understand how secular Holland is. The pope has little to no authority in Holland, even among the Catholics (which are a minority).

Like I said, I don't even know if Wilders is a Christian. He certainly never talks about his religious convictions. Maybe he believes in God, maybe he doesn't. From what I know about his past, he seems either an agnostic or even an atheist.

I know Muslims like framing everything as a struggle between Islam and Christianity. But in Holland Islamophobia is not motivated by religion convictions, but rather political convictions.
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KAding
08-09-2007, 09:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by yigiter187
retaliation to holland should came from islamic countries by banning bible...iran will do for sure,but if only turkey would do :(
Let me get this straight. You want the Bible to be banned because 1 (one) parliamentarian in Holland wants to ban the Qu'ran? Despite the fact that this would be unconstitutional and doesn't have a chance in hell of actually happening?

And you dare call the Dutch the extremists? Might I suggest you look into a mirror for that?
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KAding
08-09-2007, 09:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Good Post, and you are right. But tell me, is that really surprising you? Supposed, you live in an muslim country living strictly islamic. Now comes a bunch of christians and start to 'multiply' and claim their rights, would you act the same way, just in an islamic way and ban bible, etc ?

be honest !
I would think banning the bible would be un-Islamic, since it is a holy book in Islam as well?

But then again, selling a bible would be impossible for Muslims, since they would basically be dealing in something 'kufr', which would not be allowed? And I suppose selling a Bible to a Muslim might be a dangerous practice for non-Muslims as well, since that might be interpreted as proselytizing and might get you killed?

Hmm. Looking into it a bit more I think Saudi Arabia has already banned the Bible?
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/...issues/dp.html
Sadiq 'Abd al-Karim Mal Allah, a Saudi Arabian Shi'a Muslim, was executed in 1992. Neither he nor his family knew that he was under sentence of death or for what "crime" he had been convicted. He was apparently charged with smuggling a copy of the Bible into Saudi Arabia. He denied the charge, but was reportedly requested to convert to ******sm, an interpretation of Islam favoured by the state. When he refused, the judge was reported to have told him: "You abandon your rejectionist belief or I will kill you." On 3 September 1992 he was publicly beheaded in al-Qatif.
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Muezzin
08-09-2007, 11:14 AM
Certain people are blowing things out of proportion again...

Come on guys, it was one nutter, who was swiftly put in his place by the government!

Put things in perspective. It's good for your blood pressure. :)
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yigiter187
08-09-2007, 11:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Let me get this straight. You want the Bible to be banned because 1 (one) parliamentarian in Holland wants to ban the Qu'ran? Despite the fact that this would be unconstitutional and doesn't have a chance in hell of actually happening?

And you dare call the Dutch the extremists? Might I suggest you look into a mirror for that?
then only one iranian parliemanterian will want to ban bible...

ı said it on the condition that his offer will be accepted by the parliement..

if they will ban qoran then we will ban bible...
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IbnAbdulHakim
08-09-2007, 11:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ISLAMASWEENEY
I used to love Holland but they are acting a bit strange lately arnt they?.
its not holland, holland were pretty tolerant wiv me Alhamdulillah (and i was clearly something different in that country if u kno wat i mean)

i think its just that one stupid fat head, dont let him get to you :)
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Muezzin
08-09-2007, 11:17 AM
'If' being the operative word. :)

But since the guy with the whacked-out views was told off since they're contrary to traditional Dutch values and law, I don't think a Quran ban is likely in that country.
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Amadeus85
08-09-2007, 11:18 AM
Wilders isnt far right populist. He criticize islam as a radical liberal. Its really interesting, how many Holland citizens would agree with him.
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KAding
08-09-2007, 12:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Wilders isnt far right populist. He criticize islam as a radical liberal. Its really interesting, how many Holland citizens would agree with him.
Well, it's a bit hard to say what he is anymore. He used to be fairly reasonable when he was still a member of the liberal party in parliament. But he was evicted from the party after he refused to accept their position that Turkey might one time join the EU. He's radically against Turkey joining the EU.

Since then he has started his own party and had quite a bit of success. He became a lot more radical ever since he parted with his old party. And it's still getting worse, I really wonder how much further this will go. Like I said, I don't think anyone knows whether this is just a political strategy or if he really believes in banning the burqa or the Qu'ran. Nevertheless, his strategy seems to be working. He received about 6% of the vote in the general election last autumn. The new party is also for low taxes and small government, so you are right that he is also an economic liberal. But he transformed into a populist quite clearly. His whole strategy seems to be based on an attack against traditional politics. He portrays himself as the outsider who isn't part of the political elite. He thrives on being despised by all other political parties, I think thats the main reason why he makes remarks like these, it only strengthens his position as an 'outsider'. He knows very well that his ideas have no chance of ever being approved by a parliamentary majority.
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KAding
08-09-2007, 12:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
'If' being the operative word. :)

But since the guy with the whacked-out views was told off since they're contrary to traditional Dutch values and law, I don't think a Quran ban is likely in that country.
It's not only not likely, it is impossible. It would be unconstitutional.
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Cognescenti
08-09-2007, 02:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
It's not only not likely, it is impossible. It would be unconstitutional.

How is it that Mein Kampf is banned then? Is he wrong about that?

Nativism or Xenophobia are issues that seem to be able to peel people away from their other political views, even if they are otherwise left of center. Seems to me he is one of those??
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KAding
08-09-2007, 02:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
How is it that Mein Kampf is banned then? Is he wrong about that?
Interestingly AFAIK Mein Kampf is the only book that has explicitly been banned in Holland. Obviously that has a lot to do with the Second World War, which hit Holland very hard.

Anyway, Mein Kampf is not protected by the constitutional freedom of religion, unlike the Qu'ran. Religions always have more space legally then other beliefs. Of course, the whole problem here is that Wilders basically considers Islam a political ideology, like Fascism.

Mind you, I personally believe neither Mein Kampf nor the Qu'ran should be banned.

Nativism or Xenophobia are issues that seem to be able to peel people away from their other political views, even if they are otherwise left of center. Seems to me he is one of those??
Yes, agreed. But keep in mind that 'liberals' in continental Europe are generally right-wing and in favour of the free market and free speech. Unlike the warped US definition of 'liberals', which means anyone left of centre and even includes Maoists, lol. Wilders is definitely right-wing, always has been.

Btw, I suppose this has much to do with his hate as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders
Wilders is under constant security protection because of frequent threats to his life. On 10 November 2004, two suspected terrorists were captured after an hour-long siege of a building in The Hague. They had three grenades and have been accused of planning to kill Geert Wilders as well as then fellow MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The men in question were presumed members of what the Dutch secret service, the AIVD, has termed the Hofstadgroep.
He had to live in an army barracks for about half a year and is under 24/7 protection. That no doubt only fuels his beliefs that Islam is a threat to the country.
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Darkseid
08-09-2007, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
Strict loyalty is a sign of a cult? Tell me one religion which preaches back-biting and betrayal, and I'll tell you that it is a "cult".



Problem is that Christianity preaches the same thing, a mere glance at the Bible you'll find

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death (deuteronomy 13:6-10)

So as you can clearly read, the Bible, which Christians regard as the infallible or otherwise inspired word of God, preaches that if one of your own family member, even if it is your son stops worshipping the one God and worships false gods and idols, you are to put him to death by stoning. So why are you singling out Islam? Why don't you consider Christianity to be a cult?



Islam does not teach forced conversion, if it happens, it is against the teaching of the Holy Quran: Let there be no compulsion in religion (2:256)



Flat out wrong. It seems your knowledge of Islam is quite embarrassing.



If by theocracy you mean an Islamic government, where the shariah is the law of the land, and the government's duty is to enforce and safeguard it, yes Islam promotes theocracy. Other religions, however, also promote theocracy, which explains the existence of the CHRISTIAN democratic parties in Europe, and the Religion Right's influence in American politics and government. So I ask you again, why solely pick on Islam and not Christianity? And what about Hinduism, the third largest religion after Islam and christianity. Hindu religious political parties have massive clout in India, such as the Bharatiya Janatha Party (BJP), the Shiv Sena (SS), the Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Bajrang Dal, the RSS, and whole range of other major and minor political movements whose sole aspiration is Hindu religious dominance in the field of government in India. So by your definition, the three largest religions in the world are "Cults". But why stop there, even Sri Lankan Buddhists want a theocracy there. So what exactly is a religion in your definition? Bahaism? Give me a break.



Not only does Islam NOT promote pan-arabism, but it is against all forms of ethnic nationalism and tribalism and the false pride in one's lineage or race.

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (49:13)

Once again, another case of complete ignorance on your part.



Islam does not disapprove of scientific discoveries, but since when is evolution a scientific discovery? A large segment of Christians completely reject evolution, because their Bible says God created mankind some six thousand years ago with Adam and Eve. Is Christianity a cult for rejecting evolution as well?

Inarguably I can see your strict loyalty to the muslim faith. Thanks for proving my point.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
'If' being the operative word. :)

But since the guy with the whacked-out views was told off since they're contrary to traditional Dutch values and law, I don't think a Quran ban is likely in that country.
Were you talking about me? Because I did say that if they plan on banning the koran, they should also ban all other religious scripture.

Now how likely will that become in the Netherlands when they have such a high christian population?

Honestly, people need to stop trying to attack me just because I was pointing out why other people see Islam as a cult.

Grow up people there is no need for any bigotry.
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Darkseid
08-09-2007, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram
Surah 9, Verse 32.

This should be enough as a terms to peace for you!

God I love this Surah :'(
Strangely enough the Surah is only acclaimed widely as being a written source of Allah. One must wonder if any biological traces could be found indicating the truth. Perhaps if we go back in time we might see an Arabian prince or muslim (not Muhammad) actually writing the very first Surah.

Also, I am a believer of Allah (though I call him personally by another name) therefore you cannot use that verse in the Surah against me.

You must realize the potential possibility of the likelihood that I may actually be the next prophet of god by the fact that I can testimonially say that I can hear the words of god.
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KAding
08-09-2007, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
You must realize the potential possibility of the likelihood that I may actually be the next prophet of god by the fact that I can testimonially say that I can hear the words of god.
Huh?
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Darkseid
08-09-2007, 03:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Huh?
Now I don't actually here the words of god. I simply use reason and logic as what can be understood in an athiestic manner and then translate such into what a monotheist could understand.
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beespreeteam
08-09-2007, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
It is because Islam is acknoweldged as being a cult rather than being an actual religion in some parts of the world and here is why.

1) Strict loyalty
2) Never able to leave, unless wanting to die by someone else's hands or facing up to an infinity of years in prison
3) Conversion of people often against their will in many parts of the world
4) Promotes oppression and immediant change in governments, often for the worst for a particular group of people
5) Promotes theocracy
6) Promotes Pan-Arabism, which is a fascist practice
7) Disacknowledges Scientific discoveries such as evolution

But do no fear, most of Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism acts much like a similar cult.

And here is something to rant about.

If they are willing to have the bible in the Netherlands then they should be willing to have the koran in the netherlands.

Perhaps the true reason is that the koran isn't translated into dutch and therefore is seen as an outside influence to the cultural integrity of the Dutch Lands.
noob alert'd
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Cognescenti
08-09-2007, 05:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding

Yes, agreed. But keep in mind that 'liberals' in continental Europe are generally right-wing and in favour of the free market and free speech. Unlike the warped US definition of 'liberals', which means anyone left of centre and even includes Maoists, lol. Wilders is definitely right-wing, always has been.
Yes. Forgot about that. By US terminolgy he is more a Libertarian with a xenophobic streak, then?

format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Btw, I suppose this has much to do with his hate as well:


He had to live in an army barracks for about half a year and is under 24/7 protection. That no doubt only fuels his beliefs that Islam is a threat to the country.
Ouch! That would make me very grumpy. Maybe he is right.
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Darkseid
08-10-2007, 02:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by beespreeteam
noob alert'd
You are beyond help.

I said that if the Koran should be banned then so should the bible. Why is that so offensive to you? Are you a christian in muslim skin?

format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Yes. Forgot about that. By US terminolgy he is more a Libertarian with a xenophobic streak, then?
Conservatives is what you mean by that. Most liberals and liberatarians are very well aware of that term use.


Ouch! That would make me very grumpy. Maybe he is right.
Who are you talking about?

format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram
Do not cast pearls amongst filthy swines, as they have no regard for beauty.

Hence, I never throw verses such as the one above towards the likes of you. It was directed at the People of Understanding. :)
You know it is quite funny when you just don't get it. Well if god has made a place lower than Jahannam, you'll be the first to know.

FYI, I don't know what Jahannam is as I don't know anything outside of the English language since I am a lazy fat american pig. I simply spoke from what Allah has said for me to say.
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Intisar
08-10-2007, 02:31 AM
I guess he stands alone with his statements. Good on the gov't tho.
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Darkseid
08-10-2007, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
I guess he stands alone with his statements. Good on the gov't tho.
Who are you talking about?
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Intisar
08-10-2007, 02:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
Who are you talking about?
The Dutch MP who made the outrageous statements.
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Darkseid
08-10-2007, 02:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
The Dutch MP who made the outrageous statements.
Yeah I think if they should ban Islam, they should also ban christianity as it would be unfair to muslims to be the only ones affected by this MP's decision.

But of course we all know they aren't going to ban christianity (since it would lead to an immediant coup) and as a result Islam should also remain free from persecution.
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Intisar
08-10-2007, 03:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
Yeah I think if they should ban Islam, they should also ban christianity as it would be unfair to muslims to be the only ones affected by this MP's decision.

But of course we all know they aren't going to ban christianity (since it would lead to an immediant coup) and as a result Islam should also remain free from persecution.
I think there should be freedom of religion allowed, period. His statements were ludicrous and as a Muslim I am offended. There should be consequences implemented for the ridiculous statements he's been saying. At the same time though, I am happy that no one agrees with his bigoted opinions. :)
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Bittersteel
08-10-2007, 06:49 AM
5) Promotes theocracy
in Muslim countries only.
I was under the impression we weren't allowed to force our law in Non-Muslim countries.right or wrong?
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rania2820
08-10-2007, 07:43 AM
:sl:

as a muslimah i would never go to holland there is way to much anti-islam going on there
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Amadeus85
08-10-2007, 09:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
I think there should be freedom of religion allowed, period.
Yes for sure, in both european and muslim countries as well.
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KAding
08-10-2007, 11:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
Yeah I think if they should ban Islam, they should also ban christianity as it would be unfair to muslims to be the only ones affected by this MP's decision.

But of course we all know they aren't going to ban christianity (since it would lead to an immediant coup) and as a result Islam should also remain free from persecution.
There was some interesting polling done on what the voters of this MP thought about his remarks. So this is just about the people that voted for him:

65% agreed with him.
26% thought if you banned the Qu'ran you should also ban the Bible

Overall in the Netherlands these are the figures on religion:
21% Protestant
29% Roman Catholic
9% Other
42% No Religion

Overall the Dutch are not very religious. Almost half is essentially agnostic or atheist. And those that do say they are religious are not very strict followers. About 19% of the total population goes to a church (or mosque/temple) at least once a month. If you just look at the Muslims, you see that 30-35% visit the Mosque on a weekly basis.
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KAding
08-10-2007, 11:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Yes. Forgot about that. By US terminolgy he is more a Libertarian with a xenophobic streak, then?.
Yes, thats probably the best characterization. It appears he wants to destroy Western freedoms, like freedom of religion, to save them, lol :muddlehea.
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bint_khalid
08-10-2007, 11:39 AM
holland is one of the most racist countries in the world.
subhanallah they are just full of hate for non whites and especially muslims.they hate us alot. dont go there
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KAding
08-10-2007, 11:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by bint_khalid
holland is one of the most racist countries in the world.
subhanallah they are just full of hate for non whites and especially muslims.they hate us alot. dont go there
And this based on what exactly?

Stop spewing these ridiculous generalizations.

There are more Muslim school in the Netherlands then in the rest of the EU combined. Muslims don't live in Ghettos. Muslims are allowed to wear headscarf's anywhere. There are Muslims in the government and in Parliament. How exactly are Muslims being stopped from living Islamic lives? Sure, the debate is fierce. If Muslims equate that with oppression and hate, well, then I would kindly ask them to grow a spine or leave.

But do understand. We can and never will accept that Muslims cannot be apostates. Any multi-religious society has to grant people the freedom to change their religion, they can become Muslims, but they can also leave Islam. Islamic rules on apostasy will never be enforced in Holland. This is simply non-negotiable. Like this there are a few other things Muslims will simply have to accept if they desire to live in the our country. Mohammad, Jesus, Buddha, Allah, FSM and God are not protected by law. People are free to ridicule them.
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Muezzin
08-10-2007, 11:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
Were you talking about me?
No. The 'whacked out views' guy was the MP. My apologies if you misunderstood.

Honestly, people need to stop trying to attack me just because I was pointing out why other people see Islam as a cult.
I wasn't. Please calm down.

Grow up people there is no need for any bigotry.
I agree. Which is why I do not indulge in bigotry. Down with bigots! Up with chocolates!
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bint_khalid
08-10-2007, 11:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
And this based on what exactly?

Stop spewing these ridiculous generalizations.

There are more Muslim school in the Netherlands then in the rest of the EU combined. Muslims don't live in Ghettos. Muslims are allowed to wear headscarf's anywhere. There are Muslims in the government and in Parliament. How exactly are Muslims being stopped from living Islamic lives? Sure, the debate is fierce. If Muslims equate that with oppression and hate, well, then I would kindly ask them to grow a spine or leave.
until you become muslim, start practising islam and visit holland till then you will never know.
where do you get your facts from, holland does not have the most muslim schools. most have been burnt down by the right wing racists.
You cant walk down a street in holland with a hijab or beard and now get spat on or sworn at.
Its easy for you to say that because your not muslim so you have no idea of how it is.
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Suomipoika
08-10-2007, 12:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by bint_khalid
holland is one of the most racist countries in the world.
subhanallah they are just full of hate for non whites and especially muslims.they hate us alot. dont go there
I always appreciate irony when complaining about racism people end up making racist generalisations about hole countries and people living in them.
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KAding
08-10-2007, 12:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by bint_khalid
until you become muslim, start practising islam and visit holland till then you will never know.
where do you get your facts from, holland does not have the most muslim schools. most have been burnt down by the right wing racists.
You cant walk down a street in holland with a hijab or beard and now get spat on or sworn at.
Its easy for you to say that because your not muslim so you have no idea of how it is.
Do you live in the Netherlands? Or have you lived here?

I know plenty of Muslims, and they do not get spat or sworn on. One Muslim school was burned down (in the village Uden) by a couple of teenagers the day Theo van Gogh was murdered by a Muslim radical. The perpetrators have been caught and punished and the school rebuild. You are mad if you think "most have been burnt down".

The Netherlands is one of the only countries in the West in which there are publicly financed Islamic schools. The government is paying for these schools. There are 48 of these.
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believer
08-10-2007, 01:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Do you live in the Netherlands? Or have you lived here?

I know plenty of Muslims, and they do not get spat or sworn on. One Muslim school was burned down (in the village Uden) by a couple of teenagers the day Theo van Gogh was murdered by a Muslim radical. The perpetrators have been caught and punished and the school rebuild. You are mad if you think "most have been burnt down".

The Netherlands is one of the only countries in the West in which there are publicly financed Islamic schools. The government is paying for these schools. There are 48 of these.

Goode Morgen Meneer!

Hooo es met jou? Ik hoop alleemaal Prima (excuse the spelling... its been a ling time since I had a conversation in Dutch)

I was once no twice in the Netherlands... lived there for a total of 3 months combining those two visits. To be honest... I love your country - really... It is Echt Mooi! Heelemaal.

It is a Social Paradise... I have met Muslims there who came from Turkey and Morocco... but I never had the chance to really socialize or interact with them during those days.

Before I embraced Islam... The Netherlands was one of the places I would really like to live for the last days of my life... if it ever was possible.

Of course there are some snobs but - there are always snobs everywhere in the world... (snobs - I mean discriminating people).

My general impression of the Dutch people are Emphatic and tolerant for anything... And also very intellectual.

The outside seems Merry and Happy due to the Dutch Carnival Music and the party atmosphere created by Dutch Cheese, Dutch Architecture, Dutch Jokes, Heineken, Amstel, Brand and all the elements that really make Holland (i.e. Netherlands) a Sanctuary for multinationals.

Where in the world could you find Political Assylum Seekers enjoying the time of their life in tension-free and peace and tranquil surroundings instead of behind bars back in their own coutries.... only in the Netherlands.

Where can you find the biggest peace movement in the world, where more than 60 countries are represented by their soldiers, all having fun, drinking beers and exchanging jokes and stories and fellowship... only in Nijmegen - thats in Netherlands.


back to topic:

I believe, that the Dutch Minister is simply making a political move... nothing really serious... and not to be taken personally by Muslims.

We have a saying in my country... "the first one to get mad is the looser."

Moreover... Allah protects the Qur'an... not the physical Qur'an... but the one He has planted in the hearts of men.

The best place to keep the Qur'an is inside our bodies... our hearts.

Although - even the physical Qur'an is protected - but if force majeur happens that the physical books are destroyed. It doesn't matter, and real Muslims do not have to be alarmed. If the men influenced by Satan makes a plan? - God (Allah) will always have the better and best plan.

Real Believers will never panic. We will never grieve or be saddened about anything whatsoever... this is just a fleeting experience.... the life hereafter is much much much... better than anything we can imagine in this present life. Moreover, fear causes stress - causes illnesses - causes shorter life.

Why shorten your life unnecessarily with anything whatsoever that are not really essential for your personal salvation?


P.S.

I have really pleasant memories of Netherlands... really a very beautiful and lovely country... easy to fall in love there... nothing bad can come from this country. Inshaallah!
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Ebtisweetsam
08-10-2007, 02:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by believer
Goode Morgen Meneer!
Hooo es met jou? Ik hoop alleemaal Prima (excuse the spelling... its been a ling time since I had a conversation in Dutch)
:? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?
Is there an english translation?:giggling:
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believer
08-10-2007, 02:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
:? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?
Is there an english translation?:giggling:
It's really tempting to say - try google!

but I'm not tempted.

english translation: "Good Morning Mr. - How are you? I hope fine."

there you go.

Salaam sis!
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Muezzin
08-10-2007, 02:57 PM
Okay, we're straying now. This thread is about one Dutch MP who said something stupid and was told off for it. It is not about making allegations of racism against entire countries. Any more of that talk after this post will be removed.
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believer
08-10-2007, 03:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Good Post, and you are right. But tell me, is that really surprising you? Supposed, you live in an muslim country living strictly islamic. Now comes a bunch of christians and start to 'multiply' and claim their rights, would you act the same way, just in an islamic way and ban bible, etc ?

be honest !
I am always honest... it is not islamic to lie. moreover - lying needs to be covered up with another lie -that's a very stressful and restless life to live.

If I am in his position - I would make a good analysis and study of the situation... make a big picture chart. then, study what will be the best alternative courses of actions... weight and evalutate or even make simulation models. But never will I touch something they consider sacred like banning their books.

It is like... sinister in its very nature. Only a criminal mind would do such an act... there are more than 1001 ways to kill a cat - and shooting the cats owner is not one of them. (ok - that's a metaphor - I am not promoting any killing - please don't qoute me on that line alone, OK?.)

Peace Bro! :)
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Woodrow
08-10-2007, 03:38 PM
Sounds like many of the small time politicians are up for reelection and they know they have little chance of winning. So as a last effort to gain publicity they are making controversial and radical statements that will bring world attention.

a politicians big enemy is anonymity. To survive they need to be heard, not, believed or agreed with, just heard.

this is very similar to our State Rep here in the US who recently made a bad statement to 30 people and instantly became world famous. maybe few if any people agree with him, but he is certain that come election time his name will look familiar even if people can't remember why.
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bint_khalid
08-10-2007, 04:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Do you live in the Netherlands? Or have you lived here?

I know plenty of Muslims, and they do not get spat or sworn on. One Muslim school was burned down (in the village Uden) by a couple of teenagers the day Theo van Gogh was murdered by a Muslim radical. The perpetrators have been caught and punished and the school rebuild. You are mad if you think "most have been burnt down".

The Netherlands is one of the only countries in the West in which there are publicly financed Islamic schools. The government is paying for these schools. There are 48 of these.
no i am in the UK but i know a lot about hollan.

You need to get your facts right first, here in the UK we also have government financed muslim school buts ill be honest with you we dont have too many. most here are payed by muslim parents but still there are some.

also i think france and germany has muslim schools which are government finances.
i dont mean to generalise and i do apologise.
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bint_khalid
08-10-2007, 04:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
I always appreciate irony when complaining about racism people end up making racist generalisations about hole countries and people living in them.
sorry i do not mean to generalise, this is wrong.
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bint_khalid
08-10-2007, 04:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Okay, we're straying now. This thread is about one Dutch MP who said something stupid and was told off for it. It is not about making allegations of racism against entire countries. Any more of that talk after this post will be removed.
sorry it was my fault kind off. now lets get back on topic
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Cognescenti
08-10-2007, 05:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Sounds like many of the small time politicians are up for reelection and they know they have little chance of winning. So as a last effort to gain publicity they are making controversial and radical statements that will bring world attention.

a politicians big enemy is anonymity. To survive they need to be heard, not, believed or agreed with, just heard.

this is very similar to our State Rep here in the US who recently made a bad statement to 30 people and instantly became world famous. maybe few if any people agree with him, but he is certain that come election time his name will look familiar even if people can't remember why.
Completely true. It is good, old-fashioned political demagoguery. Hitler was the king of kings. Demonizing those who are unlike the majority or who are foreign has worked forever.

Demonizing the US has worked to get leftist governments elected in Europe and South America. Now the rightists are demonizing Muslims and immigrants to get elected.
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Woodrow
08-10-2007, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Completely true. It is good, old-fashioned political demagoguery. Hitler was the king of kings. Demonizing those who are unlike the majority or who are foreign has worked forever.

Demonizing the US has worked to get leftist governments elected in Europe and South America. Now the rightists are demonizing Muslims and immigrants to get elected.
Quite true. In order to be believed a politician does not need to say the truth. All they need to do is convince people they will fight an alleged enemy, even if they have to fabricate the enemy.

Historically that tactic has been very effective world wide and continues to be so today. If you are a politician in a non-western country the quickest way to gain support is to be anti-American and the opposite holds true. A poor unknown American politician with no support can gain rapid support by just saying they are against any group that is not identified as being American. they do not even have to be in favor of anything, just so long as they are anti-something or somebody.
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believer
08-12-2007, 09:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Quite true. In order to be believed a politician does not need to say the truth. All they need to do is convince people they will fight an alleged enemy, even if they have to fabricate the enemy.

Historically that tactic has been very effective world wide and continues to be so today. If you are a politician in a non-western country the quickest way to gain support is to be anti-American and the opposite holds true. A poor unknown American politician with no support can gain rapid support by just saying they are against any group that is not identified as being American. they do not even have to be in favor of anything, just so long as they are anti-something or somebody.
And the Truth Prevails! but people is always swayed by this cheap tactics... Is there a Huda Channel in Texas?
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Cognescenti
08-12-2007, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Quite true. In order to be believed a politician does not need to say the truth. All they need to do is convince people they will fight an alleged enemy, even if they have to fabricate the enemy.

Historically that tactic has been very effective world wide and continues to be so today. If you are a politician in a non-western country the quickest way to gain support is to be anti-American and the opposite holds true. A poor unknown American politician with no support can gain rapid support by just saying they are against any group that is not identified as being American. they do not even have to be in favor of anything, just so long as they are anti-something or somebody.
Agreed. In fairness, though, no clumsy anti-Muslim politician is not going to gain more than a few percentage points on that platform alone. Pandering to the voter (usually with handouts) trumps demagoguery in the US. So, for eg., a guy who says "let's tax the rich, they have to pay their fair share! And we can use the money for <insert program name here>" can easily gain 30-40% support immediately. This is especially clever as it combines demagoguery and pandering.
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Woodrow
08-13-2007, 12:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by believer
And the Truth Prevails! but people is always swayed by this cheap tactics... Is there a Huda Channel in Texas?
:w:

Not that I am aware of. I live with my daughter and her family. They are hooked up to Dish and I have not watched any TV except occasional news broadcasts for at least 5 years.
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KAding
08-13-2007, 08:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Quite true. In order to be believed a politician does not need to say the truth. All they need to do is convince people they will fight an alleged enemy, even if they have to fabricate the enemy.

Historically that tactic has been very effective world wide and continues to be so today. If you are a politician in a non-western country the quickest way to gain support is to be anti-American and the opposite holds true. A poor unknown American politician with no support can gain rapid support by just saying they are against any group that is not identified as being American. they do not even have to be in favor of anything, just so long as they are anti-something or somebody.
Who will say what goes on in this MPs head. But I personally think he believes in what he says and that it is not simply a cheap tactic. I mean, if there are enough voters who believe that Islam is such a threat, why would there not be politicians who believe the same? They are people too after all.
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bint_khalid
08-13-2007, 10:39 AM
many politicians already think islam is a threat, just take a look at the many right wing extremists we have in our government, France has la pen and his party, britain has the BNP and national front and so on
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KAding
08-13-2007, 11:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by bint_khalid
many politicians already think islam is a threat, just take a look at the many right wing extremists we have in our government, France has la pen and his party, britain has the BNP and national front and so on
Agreed. In fact, if we define Islam as being the Sharia then 99% of politicians would be against. Pretty much everyone sees the Sharia as a threat and would resist it. I wouldn't define that as Islamophobia though, it is only natural for non-Muslims not to want the sharia.

And lets be honest here, there are plenty of Muslims who are just as afraid of Western influences in their societies. It's simply a natural reaction, a desire to protect your own culture and heritage.
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bint_khalid
08-13-2007, 11:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Agreed. In fact, if we define Islam as being the Sharia then 99% of politicians would be against. Pretty much everyone sees the Sharia as a threat and would resist it. I wouldn't define that as Islamophobia though, it is only natural for non-Muslims not to want the sharia.

And lets be honest here, there are plenty of Muslims who are just as afraid of Western influences in their societies. It's simply a natural reaction, a desire to protect your own culture and heritage.
why is sharia a threat? sharia is to get rid of crime, evil. Make it a safe place for muslims and non muslims to both live in a secure environment free from any evil or crime.
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Intisar
08-13-2007, 11:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Agreed. In fact, if we define Islam as being the Sharia then 99% of politicians would be against. Pretty much everyone sees the Sharia as a threat and would resist it. I wouldn't define that as Islamophobia though, it is only natural for non-Muslims not to want the sharia.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this. How is seeing the Shariah as a threat not Islamophobia? :?
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bint_khalid
08-13-2007, 11:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this. How is seeing the Shariah as a threat not Islamophobia? :?
exactly sister!thats what i would like to know too, i dont understand that.
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Chechnya
08-13-2007, 11:32 AM
exactly sister!thats what i would like to know too, i dont understand that.
i think he's saying thats it ok for non-muslims to hate the islamic way of life, islamic values and islamic concepts...

of course its perfectly fine for westerners to spread their "values" and way of life through bombs and murder in muslim lands :nervous:
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Intisar
08-13-2007, 11:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechnya
i think he's saying thats it ok for non-muslims to hate the islamic way of life, islamic values and islamic concepts...

of course its perfectly fine for westerners to spread their "values" and way of life through bombs and murder in muslim lands :nervous:
Hypocrisy isn't it? What exactly are the American troops doing in Iraq? Trying to liberalise the country with their American values. :thumbs_do
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Chechnya
08-13-2007, 11:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
Hypocrisy isn't it? What exactly are the American troops doing in Iraq? Trying to liberalise the country with their American values. :thumbs_do

I dont think they know themselves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCoVaeYHzWA

:D
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aamirsaab
08-13-2007, 12:51 PM
:sl:
Threadias lockius. Shazaam!
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