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Ebtisweetsam
08-09-2007, 02:04 PM
I know this may sound dumb- its confusing enough to work out the difference between a christain and a catholic..... but what is a agnostic?
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Trumble
08-09-2007, 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
I know this may sound dumb- its confusing enough to work out the difference between a christain and a catholic..... but what is a agnostic?
Somebody who keeps an open mind as to whether there is a God or not, or someone who believes it is not actually possible to know whether there is a God or not.
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barney
08-09-2007, 07:02 PM
It's possible as well to beleive that there is a God, but that the current interpretations of who and what he is are wrong.

For example, I beleive that the Major faiths have recieved no divine revalations. Their scriptures are of men and created for social political & personal gain.
Within this framework I also accept that there is a creating force that is responsible for the origons of the universe.
So I'm agnostic.
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wilberhum
08-09-2007, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
I know this may sound dumb- its confusing enough to work out the difference between a christain and a catholic..... but what is a agnostic?
The dictionary is a good place to start.
Somebody denying God's existence is provable:
somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists

Also, try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic
Wikipedia has tons of information about tons of stuff.

But you now have the bases of it. Past that it goes a thousand different ways for thousands of different reasons.
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Pk_#2
08-09-2007, 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
I know this may sound dumb- its confusing enough to work out the difference between a christain and a catholic..... but what is a agnostic?
Bro Wil and Barney :giggling:
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ranma1/2
08-09-2007, 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Somebody who keeps an open mind as to whether there is a God or not, or someone who believes it is not actually possible to know whether there is a God or not.
in addition agnostism deals with knowledge. I am an agnostic and an atheists.
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barney
08-09-2007, 07:21 PM
How can you be both ranny? you either beleive "No" or "Dont know"?

Can you clarify that a bit please? :)
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wilberhum
08-09-2007, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
in addition agnostism deals with knowledge. I am an agnostic and an atheists.
You can always further devide:
Agnostic theists who believe or tend toward believing that here is a god but are convinced there is no proof. (barney and I)
Agnostic atheists who believe or tend toward believing that here is no god but are convinced there is no proof. (ranma1/2)
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ranma1/2
08-10-2007, 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by barney
How can you be both ranny? you either beleive "No" or "Dont know"?

Can you clarify that a bit please? :)
one deals with belief the other deals with knowledge.

atheism belief.
agnostism knowledge.

i am agnostic in fairies.
i am an atheist in fairies.
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north_malaysian
08-10-2007, 08:13 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
You can always further devide:
Agnostic theists who believe or tend toward believing that here is a god but are convinced there is no proof. (barney and I)
Agnostic atheists who believe or tend toward believing that here is no god but are convinced there is no proof. (ranma1/2)
whoa..... there are variations to the term "agnostic"

How about those who believe in God but refuse to affiliate with any religious groups?:?
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snakelegs
08-10-2007, 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
whoa..... there are variations to the term "agnostic"

How about those who believe in God but refuse to affiliate with any religious groups?:?
i fall in to this category and yes, there are a lot of variations among agnostics. i think the best definition would be a person who believes that ultimately, there are things that are unknowable.
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north_malaysian
08-10-2007, 08:31 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i fall in to this category and yes, there are a lot of variations among agnostics. i think the best definition would be a person who believes that ultimately, there are things that are unknowable.
Do you believe in aliens? (extra-terrestrial creatures)
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snakelegs
08-10-2007, 08:36 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Do you believe in aliens? (extra-terrestrial creatures)
no, but i grant that their existence is possible.
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north_malaysian
08-10-2007, 08:41 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
no, but i grant that their existence is possible.
pssst... George W. Bush is the lizard man from outer space....:nervous::nervous::nervous:
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snakelegs
08-10-2007, 08:44 AM
why doesn't he go back home????? :raging:
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north_malaysian
08-10-2007, 08:49 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
why doesn't he go back home????? :raging:
He and Superman shared the same problem ..... as both of their planets are already destroyed. Plus George W. Bush dont know how to fly his UFO... (well...he's stupid in technical stuffs)

So they're here to stay...
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Ebtisweetsam
08-10-2007, 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by barney
It's possible as well to beleive that there is a God, but that the current interpretations of who and what he is are wrong.

For example, I beleive that the Major faiths have recieved no divine revalations. Their scriptures are of men and created for social political & personal gain.
Within this framework I also accept that there is a creating force that is responsible for the origons of the universe.
So I'm agnostic.
So u must be the middle man between the Muslim/christain/jew and the athiest?
Hmmm interesting...
What if i gave u proof that that the Quran wasnt man-made????
:happy:
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wilberhum
08-10-2007, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
So u must be the middle man between the Muslim/christain/jew and the athiest?
Hmmm interesting...
What if i gave u proof that that the Quran wasnt man-made????
:happy:
You can't and anyone who understands Proof knows that.
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Ebtisweetsam
08-10-2007, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
You can't and anyone who understands Proof knows that.
so u want some proof or not???????????????????:D :exhausted
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wilberhum
08-10-2007, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
so u want some proof or not???????????????????:D :exhausted
Go open up a thered.
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Gator
08-10-2007, 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
whoa..... there are variations to the term "agnostic"

How about those who believe in God but refuse to affiliate with any religious groups?:?
If the person thought he could prove god's existence, but still not affiliate with any religious group, then he would be a theist.
If the person thought god's existence was unprovable, but still believed, he would be an agnostic theist.
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Ebtisweetsam
08-10-2007, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by Gator
If the person thought he could prove god's existence, but still not affiliate with any religious group, then he would be a theist.
If the person thought god's existence was unprovable, but still believed, he would be an agnostic theist.
Are we makin up words now:giggling:
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wilberhum
08-10-2007, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
Are we makin up words now:giggling:
No he is not. He is correct. :thumbs_up
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Gator
08-10-2007, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
Are we makin up words now:giggling:
HA! No, just trying to clarify what had been said previously, based on the question.
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Ebtisweetsam
08-10-2007, 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Gator
HA! No, just trying to clarify what had been said previously, based on the question.
Okey dokey, so how many sub-sections are there??:?
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Gator
08-10-2007, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
Okey dokey, so how many sub-sections are there??:?
This is my best shot based what was talked about on this thread.

Theist - Someone who believes in god and that his existence is provable.

Atheist - Someone who does not believe in god and that his non-existence is provable.

Agnostic Theist - Someone who believes in god, but his existence is not provable.

Agnostic Atheist - Someone who does not believe in god, but states his non-existence is not provable.

Agnostic - Someone who states god existence is not provable and doesn't want or care to take a stand one way or another. (this one I added and would ask for comments on whether this is a fair label).
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wilberhum
08-10-2007, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Gator
This is my best shot based what was talked about on this thread.

Theist - Someone who believes in god and that his existence is provable.

Atheist - Someone who does not believe in god and that his non-existence is provable.

Agnostic Theist - Someone who believes in god, but his existence is not provable.

Agnostic Atheist - Someone who does not believe in god, but states his non-existence is not provable.

Agnostic - Someone who states god existence is not provable and doesn't want or care to take a stand one way or another. (this one I added and would ask for comments on whether this is a fair label).
I have never heard an Atheist say they could prove god does not exits. :thumbs_do
No one who truly understands the concept of proof, claims to have any. :rollseyes
(Well if they are honest)
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Ebtisweetsam
08-10-2007, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I have never heard an Atheist say they could prove god does not exits. :thumbs_do
No one who truly understands the concept of proof, claims to have any. :rollseyes
(Well if they are honest)
Wilberhum, u sound like ur 'sleepless in seattle':D

Dont mind me....:hiding:
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wilberhum
08-10-2007, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
Wilberhum, u sound like ur 'sleepless in seattle':D

Dont mind me....:hiding:
I didn't sleep much last night. :X I think it is the new durgs. ;D

Still waiting for your "New Thread" to show up.
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Ebtisweetsam
08-10-2007, 05:53 PM
Its nearly 4 in the morning down under..... Im working on a website.... but dont worry tomorrow (if God wills) i will giv it to ya: like the say ' the proof is in the pudding'.
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Gator
08-10-2007, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I have never heard an Atheist say they could prove god does not exits. :thumbs_do
No one who truly understands the concept of proof, claims to have any. :rollseyes
(Well if they are honest)
Fair enough. I was trying to get the difference between what's generally called a Strong vs. a Weak Atheist and guess I failed miserably.
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barney
08-11-2007, 08:13 AM
I'm accepting of a God. The major religions(and the minor ones!) are clearly man made.
My understanding of the creator is a non-interventionist one. We cant prove that he dosnt exist in a similar way that a Christian, jew or muslim can prove that he does.
We can however prove that he dosnt DO anything. thats enough proof for me.
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Ebtisweetsam
08-11-2007, 08:34 AM
Originally Posted by Gator
Fair enough. I was trying to get the difference between what's generally called a Strong vs. a Weak Atheist and guess I failed miserably.
Okay okay, im here as i promised to prove all u agonistical/atheistical guys out there of the proof: however if u decide to NOT open your hearts and listen to ur conscious, that is entirely up to you.............

Now Muhammad was a man- an ordinary man, is that ur argument and that the quran are his own, let's say... poetry?

Certain orientalists have proposed the suggestion that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was mad, and they cite certain fictitious Traditions that hint at his suffering from epilepsy in defense of their claims. The purported revelations, they explain, were nothing more than the ramblings of a delusional madman. In fact the Arab pagans around the Prophet also accused him of madness, as Allah mentions in Surah 15, verse 6:



*{And they [the Arab pagans] say, ‘O you to whom the Reminder has been revealed! You are most surely insane!’}*



If the product of this “madness” were anything other than the Glorious Qur’an, there might be some weight to the claim. But as it stands, the question must be asked: Could a madman produce a seemingly perfect text? In fourteen hundred years of intense scrutiny and examination, not a single contradiction, grammatical flaw, or comparable imitation has ever been found.

Could a madman inadvertently compose a text that stood as the foundation of the most successful and extensive empires ever to grace the earth? Could a madman write a book that has united peoples of hundreds of different languages and races for over fourteen centuries? A text that directly generated radically original systems of government, economics, human rights, and scholarship that stood the test of time and have subsequently inspired the rules and governing systems by which we live today?

To call the Qur’an the product of insanity is no less implausible than a group of monkeys jumping on a keyboard and producing an unflawed copy of Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary. Furthermore, the Qur’an itself challenges such accusations through its self-declared inimitability (i’jaz). Allah says in Surah 2, verses 23 thru 24:



*{And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do it not – and you can never do it – then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.}*


Furthermore, if we believe in the existence of an all-powerful and controlling God, then we have to acknowledge that He would be in control the mind of a “madman” in the middle of the Arabian desert. As a believer in God, you have to admit that He willed and allowed for Muhammad to speak every verse of the Qur’an, and thereupon God allowed for these verses to travel around the world and win the hearts of billions of Muslims. If you are going on the assumption that the Qur’an is “misguidance,” then God’s willing its existence coupled with its colossal influence on mankind makes the Satanic-ploy theory more likely than its being a random creation of the mind of a madman.

An English speaker must bear in mid that the miracle of the Qur’an is in the Arabic original. In fact, the Qur’an only exists in Arabic; English versions are in reality translations of the meanings of the Qur’an. Additionally, it would be appropriate at this point to mention the innumerable scientific miracles scattered throughout the Qur’an. As this issue has been dealt with extensively in previous answers on our site, please refer to the following link for a detailed and astounding presentation:Miracles of the Qur’an.

Given the number of descriptions of natural phenomena in the Qur'an and its established age, we would expect that if it were written by Muhammad or someone contemporary to him, that it would be full of scientific errors. The fact that the Qur'an is consistent with science still today, therefore, is a powerful piece of evidence of the authenticity of the Qur'an as God's word. This is particularly impressive when we consider recent scientific discoveries which are found to be already stated in some form in the Qur’an.

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder and we made from water every living thing? Will they not then believe?

Surah 21 Verse 30

This one verse, however it was understood in earlier times, can now be realized as referring to the big bang and to key aspects of life recently discovered in science. Specifically, the earliest known fossils of living creatures were in the oceans and so historically life seems to comes from water in the sense of originating in the oceans. But more than that, several specific chemical processes essential for life depend critically on very special properties of water not found in other molecules. The necessity of water for life to exist is confirmed regularly in news today when astronomers comment on the possibility for life on other planets.


Im open to all questions..... and opinions.
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barney
08-11-2007, 09:37 AM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
If the product of this “madness” were anything other than the Glorious Qur’an, there might be some weight to the claim. But as it stands, the question must be asked: Could a madman produce a seemingly perfect text? In fourteen hundred years of intense scrutiny and examination, not a single contradiction, grammatical flaw, or comparable imitation has ever been found.

Could a madman inadvertently compose a text that stood as the foundation of the most successful and extensive empires ever to grace the earth? Could a madman write a book that has united peoples of hundreds of different languages and races for over fourteen centuries? A text that directly generated radically original systems of government, economics, human rights, and scholarship that stood the test of time and have subsequently inspired the rules and governing systems by which we live today?

To call the Qur’an the product of insanity is no less implausible than a group of monkeys jumping on a keyboard and producing an unflawed copy of Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary. Furthermore, the Qur’an itself challenges such accusations through its self-declared inimitability (i’jaz). Allah says in Surah 2, verses 23 thru 24:



*{And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do it not – and you can never do it – then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.}*

.
I accept that in arabic it's going to sound different and flows a lot better than in english. In english, its incoherent, disjointed, and needs each paragraph to be reread several times to get a vague grip on the message being put across. Full of double negatives and strangely colloquiel mixed with "religio-speak" (thee's thy's thou's and surely's-which every scripture needs to give divine weight from the torah to the book of mormon)

In arabic, its possible for the lowliest person to have a gift with oratory. you dont have to be literate to produce a lovely poem or make an inspiring speech. Mohammed was an amazing orator and had charisma in abundance.

Now to a beleiver, because everyone waxes lyrical about it's beauty, and because of the "Divine" nature of it, who would disagree?
Evryone seeing the Mona Lisa painting has been told since childhood that this painting is a great work of art and will likewise wax lyrical about its style, technical genius and beauty. If critisising the Mona lisa carried a potential death penalty, it then becomes undeniably the greatest work of art ever.
Thats for artwork. Religion is a much deeper emotional seat.

As for inconsistancys, just on this forum , hundreds and hundreds of contradictions and inconsistancys spring up every week even without throwing in the hadiths. through the ages war after war has been fought over interpretation, and this battle continues today.
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czgibson
08-11-2007, 12:33 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
Okay okay, im here as i promised to prove all u agonistical/atheistical guys out there of the proof: however if u decide to NOT open your hearts and listen to ur conscious, that is entirely up to you.............
Sorry - I have to stop you right there. Like many Muslims on the forum, you're using the word 'proof' incorrectly. A proof doesn't depend on how someone is feeling that day; it depends on rigorous logic. If there actually were a proof of god's existence, then everyone in the world who read it would be a theist.

Peace
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wilberhum
08-11-2007, 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
Okay okay,
.......................................
Im open to all questions..... and opinions.
My Opinion is not Proof and neither is yours, nor is anyone else’s.
Shale I bring Moby Dick forward for my opinion of proof.

Is this your "New Thread". Why did you chose to take this one [MAD]Off Topic[/MAD]
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Ebtisweetsam
08-12-2007, 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
My Opinion is not Proof and neither is yours, nor is anyone else’s.
Shale I bring Moby Dick forward for my opinion of proof.

Is this your "New Thread". Why did you chose to take this one [MAD]Off Topic[/MAD]
Firstly, i was the one to start this thread, and after i received my answer from u guys, i wanted to show u proof there is a God and Islam was not man-made religion.... so OBVIOUSLY i would write the answer here.... or whats wrong, were you afraid people might revert back to the religion they were born with, once i had wrote my answer?:giggling:
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Ebtisweetsam
08-12-2007, 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Sorry - I have to stop you right there. Like many Muslims on the forum, you're using the word 'proof' incorrectly. A proof doesn't depend on how someone is feeling that day; it depends on rigorous logic. If there actually were a proof of god's existence, then everyone in the world who read it would be a theist.

Peace
Maybe we can start off by answering the question: what does the word proof really mean? God coming up to you and whispering in your ear 'hey dude, Im god?'
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Ebtisweetsam
08-12-2007, 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Mohammed was an amazing orator and had charisma in abundance.
.
Thats fine, I made my points, that was what i intended to do.

But just for the record, Muhammad was illiterate, and had no education whatsoever before the Divine Revelations from God came to him.:sunny:
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barney
08-12-2007, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
But just for the record, Muhammad was illiterate, and had no education whatsoever before the Divine Revelations from God came to him.:sunny:
yupo, i know that :)
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czgibson
08-12-2007, 01:35 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
Maybe we can start off by answering the question: what does the word proof really mean? God coming up to you and whispering in your ear 'hey dude, Im god?'
Originally Posted by dictionary.com
proof /pruf/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[proof] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
2. anything serving as such evidence: What proof do you have?
3. the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial: to put a thing to the proof.
4. the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.
5. Law. (in judicial proceedings) evidence having probative weight.
6. the effect of evidence in convincing the mind.
7. an arithmetical operation serving to check the correctness of a calculation.
8. Mathematics, Logic. a sequence of steps, statements, or demonstrations that leads to a valid conclusion.
There are other definitions, but those are the main ones. What do you understand the word 'proof' to mean?

Peace
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barney
08-12-2007, 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
Maybe we can start off by answering the question: what does the word proof really mean? God coming up to you and whispering in your ear 'hey dude, Im god?'
Generally a symptom of Schizophrenia. God would have to prove it to that person. something trivial for a deity like making a Camel turn into a porcupine or something.

Once thats done, he obviously has chosen the person for some reason.
  • Just to let you know im real, take it easy..later & have fun.
  • I want you to do a specific task that I'm having some difficulty with, theres a evil influence in the message that the tellytubbies are putting accross, i'd like you to go write some letters and start a campaign against them, i've tried having a word with the producers but they wouldnt listen....
  • Your my new prophet, Go out with this list of instructions for mankind, I'll chip in with a few miracles if people think your nuts.
  • Your my new prophet, Go out with this list of instructions for mankind, Your on your own with making people beleive you, offer them the usual carrott and stick, paradise & hellfire. Used to work on people when they were gullible...
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Ebtisweetsam
08-13-2007, 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Generally a symptom of Schizophrenia. God would have to prove it to that person. something trivial for a deity like making a Camel turn into a porcupine or something.

Once thats done, he obviously has chosen the person for some reason.
  • Just to let you know im real, take it easy..later & have fun.
  • I want you to do a specific task that I'm having some difficulty with, theres a evil influence in the message that the tellytubbies are putting accross, i'd like you to go write some letters and start a campaign against them, i've tried having a word with the producers but they wouldnt listen....
  • Your my new prophet, Go out with this list of instructions for mankind, I'll chip in with a few miracles if people think your nuts.
  • Your my new prophet, Go out with this list of instructions for mankind, Your on your own with making people beleive you, offer them the usual carrott and stick, paradise & hellfire. Used to work on people when they were gullible...
:laugh: LOL! That was so funny, i actually forgot what we were talking about!
And then i went back and re-read some of the thread... so on a serious note, you cant actually expect something like that to happen.... so how about the fact that the Prophet PBUH knew of things only scientists recently found out...... that old book you've heard of that was made 1400 years ago could tell you of things scientists are learning today....

Like the miracle of the fly: one side of the wing carriers a disease and the other side carries a cure.... the Prophet Muhammad knew about this and just recently scientists are telling us about it- (i can tell you the saying of the prohet if youre interested). Cant this be called proof?:?
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Ebtisweetsam
08-13-2007, 08:22 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

There are other definitions, but those are the main ones. What do you understand the word 'proof' to mean?

Peace
Proof is anything a person provides to be believable when seen.... however when you are talking about the past tense.... it wont be seen so i would go by what professionals can prove to us.... many professionals can prove the existence of Muhammads knowledge.... please read the miracle of the fly i have mentioned above this letter, to Barney (dont worry u 2 can discuss notes behind my back, i wont mind:D )
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czgibson
08-13-2007, 12:11 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
Proof is anything a person provides to be believable when seen.... however when you are talking about the past tense.... it wont be seen so i would go by what professionals can prove to us.... many professionals can prove the existence of Muhammads knowledge.... please read the miracle of the fly i have mentioned above this letter, to Barney (dont worry u 2 can discuss notes behind my back, i wont mind:D )
The so-called miracle of the fly is an example of the scientific miracles argument. There is a big difference between an argument and a proof. The problem of evil is a very good argument against the existence of god, but it doesn't prove he doesn't exist.

Since the scientific miracles argument has been discussed so many times on the forum there's little point in going over it again.

Peace
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Pygoscelis
08-14-2007, 10:06 PM
I am agnostic. I don't know if there is a God. I doubt it, but I don't know for sure. You don't know for sure either, which you'll admit if you're honest with yourself. Its why you need "faith". When you get right down to it we are all agnostic.
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wilberhum
08-14-2007, 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I am agnostic. I don't know if there is a God. I doubt it, but I don't know for sure. You don't know for sure either, which you'll admit if you're honest with yourself. Its why you need "faith". When you get right down to it we are all agnostic.
I have thought the same. How can anyone KNOW?
The only answer is faith.
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snakelegs
08-14-2007, 11:07 PM
then why do some call themselves atheists and try their hardest to convince people that their beliefs are wrong and that they are right? since i was a child, i have had zillions of christians try to "save" me, but i have also had more than a few atheists try the same.
this is something i never understood. :confused:
but, then - there are a lot of other things i don't understand either.
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Gator
08-15-2007, 10:49 AM
The way I see it is yes, you can't prove or disprove a god, but you take your best shot at what you think is the basic nature of the universe (with a god or without).
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Ebtisweetsam
08-15-2007, 10:50 AM
I can honestly say i dont feel this way.... yes i was born into a Muslim family.... but no i did not practice Islam until i researched Islam myself at the age of 16..... and when things that are happening today, that have been proved by men years and years ago, how could you not believe... how could these men get it so right?
I dont need to see God to believe in Him.... this IS the hardest thing for a person.

So obviously this means you probably dont believe in Heaven or Hell....correct?
SO why not go steal, cheat, lie, abuse people etc. when u arent afraid of a God? You wont be rotting in Hell, would you?;D
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czgibson
08-15-2007, 11:14 AM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam

I can honestly say i dont feel this way.... yes i was born into a Muslim family.... but no i did not practice Islam until i researched Islam myself at the age of 16.....
That's interesting. So didn't you have to obey Islamic rulings on prayer, food and so on until you were sixteen?

and when things that are happening today, that have been proved by men years and years ago, how could you not believe... how could these men get it so right?
Please tell me you're not thinking about the old 'scientific miracles' argument...

So obviously this means you probably dont believe in Heaven or Hell....correct?
SO why not go steal, cheat, lie, abuse people etc. when u arent afraid of a God? You wont be rotting in Hell, would you?;D
Fear of god or fear of hell are not the only reasons that people behave morally.

Ask yourself: is fear of hell really all that is holding me back from going on a killing spree? You'd have to be pretty deranged to answer 'yes' to that question.

Peace
Reply

Ebtisweetsam
08-15-2007, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Fear of god or fear of hell are not the only reasons that people behave morally.

Ask yourself: is fear of hell really all that is holding me back from going on a killing spree? You'd have to be pretty deranged to answer 'yes' to that question.

Peace
Call me deranged if you like, but fear of God is the ONLY thing that stops me from going against His Laws.... be it Drinking, Gambling, Eating Pork, Killing myself with smokes, drugs etc, killing other people or stealing.

Where do you possibly think Common Laws have come from? Trust me, not people's own minute minds, but a few of the Laws of God have been chosen and used in what we call the Law.:)
Reply

Uthman
08-15-2007, 11:24 AM
:sl:

As Muslims we believe in something called Fitrah (human nature), and I believe that it is this which holds us back from going on a killing spree.

:)

:w:
Reply

KAding
08-15-2007, 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
So obviously this means you probably dont believe in Heaven or Hell....correct?
SO why not go steal, cheat, lie, abuse people etc. when u arent afraid of a God? You wont be rotting in Hell, would you?;D
Some reasons:
1. I don't feel like abusing people, hurting people isn't rewarding at all...
2. Empathy, it hurts to see other hurt
3. I would become an outcast, shunned by family and friends
4. I could go to jail
5. Society would collapse if we'd all behave that way. I wouldn't like that at all.

Is the only reason why you don't abuse your child/parents/friends because you fear hell? Are you truly that wicked ;)
Reply

Ebtisweetsam
08-15-2007, 11:36 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
Some reasons:
1. I don't feel like abusing people, hurting people isn't rewarding at all...
2. Empathy, it hurts to see other hurt
3. I would become an outcast, shunned by family and friends
4. I could go to jail
5. Society would collapse if we'd all behave that way. I wouldn't like that at all.

Is the only reason why you don't abuse your child/parents/friends because you fear hell? Are you truly that wicked ;)
1. Why would you NOT want to abuse people? Because of the LAWS you have been taught as a child?
2. Empathy hurst, because someone gave you feelings.... who was that?
3. Why, because of a LAW you broke?
4. same as above
5. True, because we all follow the Law.

This is what Allah gave us through His Blessed Books.... A LAW that we may follow, to make this life prepare us for the next.
Reply

czgibson
08-15-2007, 11:51 AM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
Call me deranged if you like, but fear of God is the ONLY thing that stops me from going against His Laws.... be it Drinking, Gambling, Eating Pork, Killing myself with smokes, drugs etc, killing other people or stealing.
Well, I find that very hard to understand.

Where do you possibly think Common Laws have come from? Trust me, not people's own minute minds, but a few of the Laws of God have been chosen and used in what we call the Law.:)
If that is true, then why is it that we find essentially the same moral code in all major religions, both theistic and non-theistic, as well as in secular ethical philosophies? See Aldous Huxley's book The Perennial Philosophy for more on this.

Morality can be explained without any necessity for god. Morality is at root a method of encouraging the survival of our species. If humans insisted on killing each other at any given opportunity, we wouldn't have lasted this long, so we've evidently learned at some stage to refrain from doing it. Despite the many instances of bloodshed throughout human history, we have managed to survive as a species, so morality is (to that extent) doing its job.

Originally Posted by Osman
As Muslims we believe in something called Fitrah (human nature), and I believe that it is this which holds us back from going on a killing spree.
Now that is one article of Islamic belief that I think I could go along with. There may be some aspects of it where I would disagree, but on a simple level I think that humans do in geneal want to do what they perceive to be the right thing.

Another beautifully succinct and sensible post from Osman - keep 'em coming! :thumbs_up

Peace
Reply

barney
08-15-2007, 12:46 PM
I love it when Theists think they have the monopoly on Morality.

The irony just dosnt sink in @ all :)
Reply

wilberhum
08-15-2007, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by barney
I love it when Theists think they have the monopoly on Morality.

The irony just dosnt sink in @ all :)
Well some seam to have a monopoly on killing for god.
Scores die in attacks on Iraqi sect
Up to 200 people were killed and 200 more wounded in a series of suicide attacks attacks in northern Iraq late on Tuesday that appeared to have targeted the Yazidi religious sect.

(More)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...936C4E346D.htm
Reply

Pygoscelis
08-15-2007, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
then why do some call themselves atheists and try their hardest to convince people that their beliefs are wrong and that they are right?
It is human nature to want to bring others to your way of thinking. Atheists do this re religion yes, but they will also do it re sports and politics, etc.

Beyond that, many atheists, myself included, see many of today's religions as dangerous to society. So it makes perfect sense to try to bring others away from them. Asking this type of atheist why try to bring someone away from these religions is like asking them why try to bring someone away from racism or any other hurtful belief system.

And beyond that, many atheists, myself included, worry a little about social pressure, conformity, mind programming that exists in our society (and this doesn't only apply to religion). People are usually practicing their religion because they were brought up to do so. They were infused with it in their youth. Only a handful of believers have actually ever stopped to question their own beliefs. I respect and admire those who have done so and still retain their beliefs, I think they have a stronger foundation to stand on than the sheeple, but the sheeple still rule.
Reply

Pygoscelis
08-15-2007, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
1. Why would you NOT want to abuse people? Because of the LAWS you have been taught as a child?
Ask yourself this and answer honestly to yourself. Are laws really the only reason you don't abuse people? If we were off in the wilderness, just you and me, would you abuse and kill me if you knew nobody, not even your God, would ever find out? Somehow I doubt it.

2. Empathy hurst, because someone gave you feelings.... who was that?
My mom and dad. They had sex one day and a bit later my brain started to form synapses and gave me instincts. Then later as I grew up I was socialized and I learned to identify with my fellow human beings even moreso.

3. Why, because of a LAW you broke?
We have laws not because God gave them to us, but because we decided they made sense. Would you wish to live in a society where your fellow citizens considered it ok for you to be robbed, raped, and murdered?

[/quote]This is what Allah gave us through His Blessed Books.... A LAW that we may follow, to make this life prepare us for the next.[/QUOTE]

Allah gave you no such thing. The writers of the book you call "holy" simply took their moral views of the time and wrote them down and claimed a God told them these things.
Reply

snakelegs
08-16-2007, 05:27 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It is human nature to want to bring others to your way of thinking. Atheists do this re religion yes, but they will also do it re sports and politics, etc.

Beyond that, many atheists, myself included, see many of today's religions as dangerous to society. So it makes perfect sense to try to bring others away from them. Asking this type of atheist why try to bring someone away from these religions is like asking them why try to bring someone away from racism or any other hurtful belief system.

And beyond that, many atheists, myself included, worry a little about social pressure, conformity, mind programming that exists in our society (and this doesn't only apply to religion). People are usually practicing their religion because they were brought up to do so. They were infused with it in their youth. Only a handful of believers have actually ever stopped to question their own beliefs. I respect and admire those who have done so and still retain their beliefs, I think they have a stronger foundation to stand on than the sheeple, but the sheeple still rule.
as an american, i worry plenty about the increasing influence of christianity on my gov't. it isn't really christianity that concerns me, it is the slipping away of separation of church and state that alarms me. actually -it just plain scares me.
i've never belonged to any religion (tho i do believe in god), but i don't think it is nothing but harmful. and i don't see how you can compare it to racism. religion brings a lot of comfort and solace to people, it causes many to study and reflect. it's given people motives to go on living, to give up drugs etc etc. i think it is simplistic to see it as all-negative. it's a mixture.
you pointed out yourself that religion has no monopoly on brainwashing and programming (it's rampant when you consider politics).
personally i don't like religion, as i've said a million other times, but if someone finds that it makes their lives better - why try to change them?
all i know is that i sure don't like it when missionaries come to my door and try to change me! :raging: and you are trying to do the same thing - you're on a mission of your own! altho at least your holy book doesn't require it of you. ;D
i must say no atheist has ever rung my doorbell, tho, thank god!
but why can't people ever let each other just be?
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Pygoscelis
08-16-2007, 08:40 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i've never belonged to any religion (tho i do believe in god), but i don't think it is nothing but harmful. and i don't see how you can compare it to racism.
Depends on the religion we speak of. If we're talking Jainism, I agree.

If we're talking Christianity, as taken literally (rather than the feel good fluff christians), I disagree. Christianity's base belief is the concept of sin, making all human beings worthy of eternal torture and in need of "saving". Thats awful. Moreover, its inherited sin from Adam, teaching that you are responsible for the wrongdoing of your ancestors. And moreover, it then teaches that FAITH is what will save you, rather than being good and king towards your fellow human beings. And moreover, it teaches that it is ok for an innocent person (Jesus) to take the punishement in the place of the guilty (us) - in no other context is that acceptable.

All of this is fundamentally immoral in my view and I am more than happy to do whatever I can to encourage others to get away from it. And note, I haven't even touched upon the nastiness that is the OT bible (showing a truly psychopathic monster god that these people call loving and just).

And then there is the whole concept that they all, even the fluff ones, consider me deserving of eternal torture because I don't conform to their mindset and worship their imaginary God. What I spoke of in the above paragraphs show the nastiness of religion but this particular part is most on point to your comment about racism. It is easily comparable to racism when they are saying anybody who is not like they are justly deserve to be tortured for all eternity.

And did you know that various surveys and studies in the USA have shown atheists to be the most distrusted and poorly regarded "group". Sure sounds like racism to me. The US has had presidents declaring that atheists should not be considered patriots (bush the first). And many many religious people will tell you that you can not have morals without God (we've seen a slight hint at that in this very thread).

So yes, to many of us many religions' beliefs (I'm only picking on christianity here because its the one I know best) are easily on par with racism.

religion brings a lot of comfort and solace to people
Including those who do horrible things and then use their religion to justify their stance.

i think it is simplistic to see it as all-negative. it's a mixture.
Bad things can have silver linings sure. Thats no reason not to work against them. And I'm actually ok with those feel good fluff christians I spoke of above, who use their religion only as a comfort tool and inspiration for goodness etc... but these Christians are ignoring rather large parts of the bible and still support the base beliefs I noted above.

And more to your point, religion offers nothing you can't find outside religion, including the classic religious draws of comfort, inspiration, a sense of belonging, etc.

you pointed out yourself that religion has no monopoly on brainwashing and programming (it's rampant when you consider politics).
That is true. We should expose it and fight against it in these places too. Far to many people like to be told what to do and what to think, and these sheeple need to wake up and stop being so lazy and easily led and start thinking for themselves.

but if someone finds that it makes their lives better - why try to change them?
Really depends on who they are. I wouldn't make any effort to try to change an old lady whose based her life around her religion and needs to to cope with some life threatening disease.

But I will ALWAYS encourage young minds to question what perceived authority figures are telling them. And I include myself in that. I would never want somebody to believe as I do because I told them to. No. I want them to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions. And If they do come to a religious conclusion, I'm far more ok with that than the vast majority who accept whatever they were fed as a child and remain sheeple.

all i know is that i sure don't like it when missionaries come to my door and try to change me! :raging: and you are trying to do the same thing - you're on a mission of your own!

i must say no atheist has ever rung my doorbell, tho, thank god!
I have yet to meet an atheist who would do that. I have yet to meet an atheist who would even try to convert anybody to atheism. It isn't changing the religious person's mind that we are really after. Its getting them to use their mind to begin with, for something other than affirming what they already believe.
Reply

جوري
08-17-2007, 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
I know this may sound dumb- its confusing enough to work out the difference between a christain and a catholic..... but what is a agnostic?
An agnostic is someone who is noncommittal!-- Noncommittal persons broadly speaking don't make good surgeons or ER staff or anything that requires quick, precise, and deeply thought cerebral approach to any problem-- however, they make for a good example of echopraxia and tend to imitate each other in that regard, if you have visited one website or read a post by such a group or person then, they all tend to run along the same lines.. they are a driven herd!.. However, they do fancy themselves deucedly clever and a part of the few literary and 'scientific' intelligentsia-- I suppose there is no harm in that, until they come and harass people and baiting them into like indecisiveness and vain discourse ! Frankly life is too short for this kind of indecision or to simply exercise a blasé attitude of this magnitude! It is beyond me.... Make a decision or don't come bothering others of your indecision, in my view is how such individuals ought to live until such a time when things become more discernible for them!
hope that helps?
:w:


p.s Snake I wrote this without you in mind, to me you are a deist, who doesn't subscribe to a particular religion... Most Agnostics I have encountered are atheists incognito, I suppose for some fear of reprisal? :confused: ..

peace!
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snakelegs
08-17-2007, 05:32 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Depends on the religion we speak of. If we're talking Jainism, I agree.

If we're talking Christianity, as taken literally (rather than the feel good fluff christians), I disagree. Christianity's base belief is the concept of sin, making all human beings worthy of eternal torture and in need of "saving". Thats awful. Moreover, its inherited sin from Adam, teaching that you are responsible for the wrongdoing of your ancestors. And moreover, it then teaches that FAITH is what will save you, rather than being good and king towards your fellow human beings. And moreover, it teaches that it is ok for an innocent person (Jesus) to take the punishement in the place of the guilty (us) - in no other context is that acceptable.

all the things you have mentioned above, i consider absolutely hideous. this is one reason why i could never be a christian. it is senseless to argue with them on this because belief is based on faith, so it is impossible to prove either way. (which is not the same as saying that it is not real, or that it is false).

All of this is fundamentally immoral in my view and I am more than happy to do whatever I can to encourage others to get away from it. And note, I haven't even touched upon the nastiness that is the OT bible (showing a truly psychopathic monster god that these people call loving and just).

And then there is the whole concept that they all, even the fluff ones, consider me deserving of eternal torture because I don't conform to their mindset and worship their imaginary God. What I spoke of in the above paragraphs show the nastiness of religion but this particular part is most on point to your comment about racism. It is easily comparable to racism when they are saying anybody who is not like they are justly deserve to be tortured for all eternity.

i consider the above atrocious also. but here is something funny: by being upset by this belief and feeling a need to "correct" it, you are agreeing with them that there is an afterlife! if you don't believe in an afterlife, what difference does it make if they believe these things??
you are giving the afterlife the same amount of validity as this life if you can compare this to racism, which is something wrong going on right in the here and now! are you really equating the 2?

And did you know that various surveys and studies in the USA have shown atheists to be the most distrusted and poorly regarded "group". Sure sounds like racism to me. The US has had presidents declaring that atheists should not be considered patriots (bush the first). And many many religious people will tell you that you can not have morals without God (we've seen a slight hint at that in this very thread).

on the above, you are right. if they discriminate against atheists, this is wrong. but not all religious people would, or would condone this. is their religion 100% wrong or is it the discrimination that is wrong? could it be that they don't understand their religion correctly? how would you know?

So yes, to many of us many religions' beliefs (I'm only picking on christianity here because its the one I know best) are easily on par with racism.

once again, not all people who follow a specific religion will act in this way. when they do, it is wrong. it is the action that matters!

Including those who do horrible things and then use their religion to justify their stance.

is this the individual involved using his religion to excuse unacceptable behaviour, or is this his religion?

Bad things can have silver linings sure. Thats no reason not to work against them. And I'm actually ok with those feel good fluff christians I spoke of above, who use their religion only as a comfort tool and inspiration for goodness etc... but these Christians are ignoring rather large parts of the bible and still support the base beliefs I noted above.

again, this is what is wrong. not the religion itself.

And more to your point, religion offers nothing you can't find outside religion, including the classic religious draws of comfort, inspiration, a sense of belonging, etc.

some people are moved by the song of a bird, some are moved by death metal rock music. people are more receptive of some sources of inspiration than others. what's wrong with that?

That is true. We should expose it and fight against it in these places too. Far to many people like to be told what to do and what to think, and these sheeple need to wake up and stop being so lazy and easily led and start thinking for themselves.

this is indeed alarming. but you are trying to do them the exact same thing: tell them what to believe (in this case not believe!) you don't really want them to think for themselves, but to take your word for it over others. your motives may be good, but it is the same.

Really depends on who they are. I wouldn't make any effort to try to change an old lady whose based her life around her religion and needs to to cope with some life threatening disease.

how do you know what is in someone else's heart or what is going on in his life?

But I will ALWAYS encourage young minds to question what perceived authority figures are telling them. And I include myself in that. I would never want somebody to believe as I do because I told them to. No. I want them to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions. And If they do come to a religious conclusion, I'm far more ok with that than the vast majority who accept whatever they were fed as a child and remain sheeple.

as you see by my signature, this is a big thing with me also. but you can stand there and jump up and down all day - why should they listen to you?

I have yet to meet an atheist who would do that. I have yet to meet an atheist who would even try to convert anybody to atheism. It isn't changing the religious person's mind that we are really after. Its getting them to use their mind to begin with, for something other than affirming what they already believe.
i was of course joking about atheists ringing doorbells.
if you want to point out to somebody that they are programmed or not using their minds, why not find some more territory that is less precious to people than their religious beliefs?
there is no end of examples of programming that really lead to horrendous crimes. example: "saddam hussein is a threat to the u.s." people just except this because bush told them so.
if you want to avoid political battles - here's an even better one: advertising. people believe the authoritative voice in the box that tells them that they are too ugly, too fat, or to "square". happens all the time and sells billions of $ worth of totally useless products.
Reply

Pygoscelis
08-18-2007, 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If we're talking Christianity, as taken literally (rather than the feel good fluff christians), I disagree. Christianity's base belief is the concept of sin, making all human beings worthy of eternal torture and in need of "saving". Thats awful. Moreover, its inherited sin from Adam, teaching that you are responsible for the wrongdoing of your ancestors. And moreover, it then teaches that FAITH is what will save you, rather than being good and king towards your fellow human beings. And moreover, it teaches that it is ok for an innocent person (Jesus) to take the punishement in the place of the guilty (us) - in no other context is that acceptable.

Originally Posted by Snakelegs
i consider the above atrocious also. but here is something funny: by being upset by this belief and feeling a need to "correct" it, you are agreeing with them that there is an afterlife! if you don't believe in an afterlife, what difference does it make if they believe these things??
Not so. I don't believe that they have an afterlife. And I don't have to believe that to find their thinking dangerous and thus oppose it.

I am also upset by white supremecists who believe that white people are a superior race and all others are below human. I do not have to observe them acting on these beliefs for me to object to them. Same with those who hold immoral views based on their religions. Racism by the way is not a set of actions, it is a set of beliefs. Those beliefs then lead to actions (Ie, what Hitler was able to do to Jews because his people saw them as inhuman) but the beliefs alone should raise red flags.

Once they do hold such beliefs their paradigm is tilted, and they ARE prone to act and also to spread their dangerous ideas and have those they infect act in unethical ways.

By opposing Christianity I see myself as opposing the unethical views I noted above.

on the above, you are right. if they discriminate against atheists, this is wrong. but not all religious people would, or would condone this. is their religion 100% wrong or is it the discrimination that is wrong? could it be that they don't understand their religion correctly? how would you know?
If they are not following their own Bible, then I'm happy to see that, but they are then obviously Christian in name only. And they still continue to propogate the book, which is filled with these ideas, which will thus gain a foothold again in the future as those they spread it to read it.

And I seriously think you would be hard pressed to find a Christian who does not believe that Jesus is their saviour, and that his sacrifice erased their sins. That statement contains every one of the negative views I outlined in my opening paragraph. All the other nasty stuff, ie burning witches, homophobia, etc, is just additional negativity added on.

is this the individual involved using his religion to excuse unacceptable behaviour, or is this his religion?
Sometimes one, sometimes the other, sometimes both. In any of these 3 cases, the religion is destructive (its either the cause or its a justifier, or both).

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Bad things can have silver linings sure. Thats no reason not to work against them. And I'm actually ok with those feel good fluff christians I spoke of above, who use their religion only as a comfort tool and inspiration for goodness etc... but these Christians are ignoring rather large parts of the bible and still support the base beliefs I noted above.
Originally Posted by Snakelegs
again, this is what is wrong. not the religion itself.
By "this" you mean what? That some "fluff" christians ignore their own religion's teaching? I find that a good thing. I just wish they'd drop the trappings then. If they don't follow the bible and actually oppose its ideas, then they should trash it and create a new and friendlier religion. Otherwise they are enabling others that they spread these ideas to to latch onto them.

i was of course joking about atheists ringing doorbells.
if you want to point out to somebody that they are programmed or not using their minds, why not find some more territory that is less precious to people than their religious beliefs?
I do. But that is no reason not to attack it here too. If somebody finds their racism (the analogy you suggested above) to be precious to them, is that any reason not to try to encourage them to question it?

there is no end of examples of programming that really lead to horrendous crimes. example: "saddam hussein is a threat to the u.s." people just except this because bush told them so.
Yes that was awful. And guess what Bush uses time and time again to push his followers to follow him? Religion. He was elected by appealing to the "religious right" in the US.

if you want to avoid political battles - here's an even better one: advertising.
Indeed. And I work on this one extensively. I have worked for years now with Concerned Children's Advertiser's freethought wing. Here are links to two of my favourite advertisements they've put out on Canadian TV. I especially like the second one. Its hillarious and very to the point. They also do workshops with kids in schools from kindergarten to high school. As for this avoiding political battles though, think again. There are is a very powerful force within politics fighting against this sort of effort.

http://www.cca-kids.ca/tvandme/english/video/smart.mov
http://www.cca-kids.ca/tvandme/english/video/hippo.mov
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Pygoscelis
08-18-2007, 03:49 AM
A few points that popped into my head after reading purest ambrosia's post. Perhaps these should be a thread of their own, but I don't feel like starting one :p

1. Is belief or nonbelief in God(s) and belief in which particular religion is right really something you can freely decide? I don't think I could believe in Zues no matter how hard I tried to. Could you?

2. Is it always better to make the wrong choice instead of making no choice?
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sevgi
08-18-2007, 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
whoa..... there are variations to the term "agnostic"

How about those who believe in God but refuse to affiliate with any religious groups?:?
one guy on this forum once termed himself a "non-allied monotheist"..

i quite liked that.
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wilberhum
08-18-2007, 07:01 AM
Noncommittal persons broadly speaking don't make good surgeons or ER staff or anything that requires quick, precise, and deeply thought cerebral approach to any problem-
:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:
As apposed to theists that are will believe anything that they find in what someone told them was a "Holy Book". :-\
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sevgi
08-18-2007, 07:33 AM
i think i just skipped a beat...what are u guys giggling at? theists? if yes, why?...coz they are unable to perform surgery?

sorry to burst the bubble of sarcasm...
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wilberhum
08-18-2007, 07:45 AM
Originally Posted by sumeyye
i think i just skipped a beat...what are u guys giggling at? theists? if yes, why?...coz they are unable to perform surgery?

sorry to burst the bubble of sarcasm...
Someone thinks a person’s entire ability to function in a profession is based on their belief system.:confused:

I wonder what kind of a belief system is necessary to think you are intellectually superior to everyone else. :hiding:
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sevgi
08-18-2007, 07:50 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Someone thinks a person’s entire ability to function in a profession is based on their belief system.:confused:

I wonder what kind of a belief system is necessary to think you are intellectually superior to everyone else. :hiding:
ohhh ok...were attacking 'someone'...i dnt knwo who that is..i havent read that far into the thread...but...

i can say that that thought is wrong,...very wrong...and a little ignorant as well..no offense...

also, a belief system to think ur above everyone else...well judaism is one...not pointing the finger...its in the religion...and i guess out right narcisism...

again...no fingers being pointed at anyone...im just flowing with the thread.
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wilberhum
08-18-2007, 07:55 AM
Originally Posted by sumeyye
ohhh ok...were attacking 'someone'...i dnt knwo who that is..i havent read that far into the thread...but...

i can say that that thought is wrong,...very wrong...and a little ignorant as well..no offense...

also, a belief system to think ur above everyone else...well judaism is one...not pointing the finger...its in the religion...and i guess out right narcisism...

again...no fingers being pointed at anyone...im just flowing with the thread.
Yes attacking someone is wrong,...very wrong...and a little ignorant as well.. :thumbs_do
The original attacker has a long history of insulting people. :offended:
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sevgi
08-18-2007, 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Yes attacking someone is wrong,...very wrong...and a little ignorant as well.. :thumbs_do
The original attacker has a long history of insulting people. :offended:
no no no mate...

i was talking about the initial attacker...he/she is ignorant and wrong...

not u guys...i find the thought that ppl who dnt have belief systems cant do critical thinking etc etc wrong...

so i guess i was also sort of attacking 'someone'...

all credits to u and ur counter-attacking...

peace.
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wilberhum
08-18-2007, 08:03 AM
Originally Posted by sumeyye
no no no mate...

i was talking about the initial attacker...he/she is ignorant and wrong...

not u guys...i find the thought that ppl who dnt have belief systems cant do critical thinking etc etc wrong...

so i guess i was also sort of attacking 'someone'...

all credits to u and ur counter-attacking...

peace.
Thank you. I truly appreciate what you said. :thumbs_up :thumbs_up

It is 1:00 AM, I need to get to bed. So have a good night.

Thanks Again,
Wilber
Reply

barney
08-18-2007, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
An agnostic is someone who is noncommittal!-- !
Untrue. Sweeping generalisations are not usually helpful. This is like saying "Muslims are dogmatic" or "Bhuddists are lazy", so it's just lightweight bigotry, well worth discarding.

Agnostics are as likely to be focused on something like surgery or science far more than a Theist of a major religion. In evrything the Theist Surgeon does they are asking for God to guide them and their mind is on God not the job.

Most Agnostics are people who shrug their shoulders about theology and say " I dunno, dont really care- ive more things to do in this real life than a possibility of some life after it"

The Agnostics here are the ones who think about theology, and so they have questions to ask. Awkward questions which Theists find difficult or impossible to answer. This will cause the reaction of some theists to be dismissive , angry or ridiculing.

Thats all folks!
Reply

Isambard
08-18-2007, 04:02 PM
I consider myself an a (weak) atheist because I see no prove for God's or any other deities' existance. The only arguement that isnt self-contradictory is the God of the gaps arguement, but then your simply replacing the word ignorant with God.

I am open to the possibility of his/it/their existance, but at the same lv of openess that I consider invisible flying toads with crazy mind controlling powers to exist. So its so small, its simply easier to say it probably doesnt exist.
Strong atheism though is really a folly of logic as you cant really prove a negative.

With all that said, I also feel many (contemporary) atheists, or 'youtube atheism' is on par with theistic fundamentalism, in that the border somewhere between delusional and retarded. I am tired of these psedo-atheists acting as though atheists are inherently better to theists or that atheism automatically means you are morally superior and that you must follow X secular ethics.
Honestly, I consider a theist someone who is simply comfortable with their current standing philosophically and metaphically. How is in any different than my understanding of how my tv works? You could tell me some lie and I would most likely believe it because I am comfortable and feel no motivation to investigate further. Its just a matter of interest.

Sometimes out of spite, I play stupid and indulge these supposed 'free-thinkers' and let them spout off their garbage of some supposide perfect ethical system they have discovered. Then I poke holes. If I feel lazy Ill just attack Dawkins strange assumption that atheism = humanism. For 'free-thinkers' they certainly do get angry when you speak ill of the 'atheist prophet'. lol
Reply

Pygoscelis
08-18-2007, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Sometimes out of spite, I play stupid and indulge these supposed 'free-thinkers' and let them spout off their garbage of some supposide perfect ethical system they have discovered. Then I poke holes. If I feel lazy Ill just attack Dawkins strange assumption that atheism = humanism. For 'free-thinkers' they certainly do get angry when you speak ill of the 'atheist prophet'. lol
Those who know me from this board probably won't believe me when I type this, but I do the same thing :)

There is indeed a certain group of atheists who try to speak for "atheists" and try to decide what atheists believe. Atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief in Gods. Full stop. That's it. There is nothing else to it. Atheism is not humanism and it is not whatever other ethical system these people try to pin on it. It is ironic when ones try to call themselves "free-thinkers" or "brights" (anybody remember that idiocy?). They are not freethinking; they are blindly following a doctrine, just like religious people do.

That said, this group of "atheists" though outspoken and organized are a very small minority of atheists in general. Most atheists are difficult to organize precisely because they have nothing in common other than their lack of belief in gods and perhaps their concerns about religion doing harm to society (but then not all atheists see religion as harmful).

I must say though, it also annoys me when people speak of writers like Dawkins as "atheist prophets". I don't follow Dawkins and I find him horrid. He doesn't speak for me and he doesn't speak for atheism or for anti-religion. Refering to Dawkins, or Darwin, as "atheist leaders" is a button many theists like to push to annoy atheists, and it works because it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what atheism is and it tries to attribute a group identity and group think to people who usually treasure their free thinking and individuality (If they didn't they'd stay or become the prevailing religion in their community - its a much easier life)
Reply

جوري
08-18-2007, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Untrue. Sweeping generalisations are not usually helpful. This is like saying "Muslims are dogmatic" or "Bhuddists are lazy", so it's just lightweight bigotry, well worth discarding.

Agnostics are as likely to be focused on something like surgery or science far more than a Theist of a major religion. In evrything the Theist Surgeon does they are asking for God to guide them and their mind is on God not the job.

Most Agnostics are people who shrug their shoulders about theology and say " I dunno, dont really care- ive more things to do in this real life than a possibility of some life after it"

The Agnostics here are the ones who think about theology, and so they have questions to ask. Awkward questions which Theists find difficult or impossible to answer. This will cause the reaction of some theists to be dismissive , angry or ridiculing.

Thats all folks!
You ran a random double blind study on what sorts of folks go into surgery? or are you speaking from eye witness account? or are you undoing a generaliZation with another? Most good doctors, are ones that will admit their limitations, and know God indeed works through them, they chisel, excise, mediate, listen and prescribe, console, they are indeed arbiters, therapists, but the actual healing comes from something nothing short of a miracle, perhaps they give a tiny nudge and even that fails at times.. you'd pay $400 a tube of beclapermin and still most likely die of your stage four decubitus, over something that was given you endogenously, naturally, under physiological conditions, indeed the ability to heal is nothing short of a miracle, perhaps a great deal of theists simply know something you don't? ( every diminutive detail by your standards, is nothing short of a miracle, here is your sign, one after the next, find it where you will) don't find it at all, it is inconsequential to most of us-- but an Atheist isn't a 'free thinker', in fact if you wished a more descriptive attribute, it would be that of an ingrate, I take away one of your naturally bestowed accolades and just you watch, what you'd pay to be well again!

--- at least I base my opinion on something I actually witness, something factual!... 65% of doctors believe in God! and believe that their patients who believe in God had generally a more positive outcome that their 'noncommittal' counter parts, either way, I don't see why it should bother you what I say or write one way or the other?... I reckon you'll go to your grave the way you are, and what you say frankly doesn't have much effect on me save the minor irritations every now and then.

Is it that Atheists really love the sight of their own writing and the sound of their own voice that drives them to bore everyone along with them? Do you have something to prove? I don't! I parted with my two cents, and how you view my two cents doesn't impact me in the least-- it is disturbing however, this incessant need to prove that Atheists are the proud few intelligentsia, when in fact they represent no more than 7-10% of any population in their own way a driven herd who will go to any extreme to make a moot (un-provable) point most peddling their brochures even here on board, and on a personal level, I just find them lacking something human, deep and spiritual (I don't believe that will change) I can sign on any day and read something by Rav, Eric H or Grace seeker, and be thoroughly touched and pleased though, I might not agree with them on certain theological aspects.. there is still something unequivocally real and human.. I have not experienced the same from any Atheist on board.. everything runs in the way of a cheap antic, a quick liner, I know they are not really looking for a serious response and readily drive gratification out of simplistic conclusions -- to me they are assimilated to a life stipped of poetry, art, or natural adornment of the cosmos, like a day without night or vice versa, just incomplete!

my only sound advise is, stop wasting your too brief a life on a forum..You are not going to make a difference in how anyone perceives anything, in fact thinking so almost borders on a grand delusion accompanied by a psychotic disorder ( I can't think of a faster way to get you committed) than to walk around boastful that you have made some change in a young impressionable youth's life! if s/he is swayed by you, they will be by anything that comes their way, that is what most would classify as fickle!...if I had nothing to believe, I'd be eating life up right now... what is holding you back and freezing you in front of your computer?

Physicians View Religiosity as Factor in Patients' Health

By Judith Groch, Senior Writer, MedPage Today
Reviewed by Robert Jasmer, MD; Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine, University of California, San Francisco
April 10, 2007


Add Your Knowledge™ Additional Alternative Medicine Coverage


CHICAGO, April 10 -- A majority of physicians in a large survey declared that religion and spirituality, including divine intervention, affect their patients' health.

The survey of more than a thousand practicing physicians found that 56% believe religion and spirituality have a significant effect on health, researchers reported in the April 9 issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine.
Action Points

Explain to interested patients that, for the most part, physicians believe patients' religious or spiritual beliefs have a positive effect on health.


If patients ask, explain that physicians' own religious beliefs are likely to influence their perception of the effect of religion on health.
Nearly as many said that on occasion the influence is attributable to divine intervention, said Farr A. Curlin, M.D., of the University of Chicago, and colleagues. Yet only a few said that these beliefs change "hard" medical outcomes.


"We find it notable, particularly in light of perennial discussions about the relationship between science and faith, that most physicians apply medical science while maintaining a belief that God intervenes in patients' health," said Dr. Curlin and colleagues.


The survey also found that the physicians' perceptions were strongly influenced by their own religious convictions. "Patients are likely to encounter quite different opinions about the relationship between their religion and spirituality and their health, depending on the religious characteristics of their physicians," the authors wrote.


Although many patients draw on prayer and other religious resources to manage the spiritual challenges that arise from illness, controversy has remained about whether, and to what extent, religion and spirituality help or harm patients, Dr. Curlin and colleagues said.


To study this relationship, the researchers mailed a cross-sectional survey in 2003 to a stratified, random potential sample of 2,000 practicing U.S. physicians, 65 or younger, representing all specialties.


Physicians were asked to estimate how often patients mentioned religion and spiritual issues, how much these issues influenced health, and in what ways the influence manifested itself.


The survey also included questions to determine the physicians' own religious characteristics, general observations, and interpretations of religion.


Among eligible physicians, the response rate was 63% (1,144 of 1,820), and the average age of the physicians was 49. Most physicians (56%) believed that spiritual issues had much or very much influence on health, while 54% believed that at times a supernatural being intervenes, the researchers reported.


However, although 85% of the physicians believed that the influence of spirituality is generally positive, only 6% perceived that these beliefs often changed "hard" medical outcomes.


Rather, the study found that 76% of the physicians believed that spirituality helps patients cope, 74% said that it gives patients a positive state of mind, while 55% reported that spirituality and religion provide emotional and practical support via the religious community.


Only 7% of the physicians said that spirituality often causes guilt, anxiety, or other negative emotions, while 2% said it leads patients to decline medically indicated therapy, and 4% reported that patients use it to avoid responsibility for their own health. Finally, about one-third said it can have these harmful influences sometimes.


The physicians' observations and interpretations were strongly influenced by their own religious beliefs, the researchers said.


Compared with those with low religiosity, highly religious physicians were substantially more likely to report that patients often mention spiritual issues (36% versus 11%; P<0.001).


They were also more likely to believe that religion and spirituality strongly influence health (82% versus 16%; P<0.001), and to interpret the influence of religion and spirituality in positive rather than negative ways, the researchers found.


These associations persisted in multivariate analyses that controlled for religious affiliation, region of practice, age, sex, ethnicity, and specialty.


In further analyses, comparing physicians with religious affiliations with those with no religious affiliation, Protestant physicians were more likely to report that their patients bring up spiritual issues and are more likely to believe that God intervenes, that spirituality helps patients cope, and sometimes prevents hard medical outcomes.


Catholic physicians put their faith in God's intervention first and also agreed that belief helps patients cope. They were less likely to say that belief causes negative emotions.


Physicians of other religious affiliations were more likely to report that their patients bring up spiritual issues, that God intervenes, and that spirituality strongly influences health and sometimes prevents hard medical outcomes.


Finally, physicians who practiced in the South, followed by the Midwest, were more likely to report that their patients often mention religious beliefs, with those in the West and Northeast not as likely to do so.


This survey indicated, said Dr. Curlin and colleagues, that religious issues may influence end-of-life care in which some patients and families express hopes for miracles. Because religious physicians may be more likely to share such hopes, further study is needed to explore how these differences may affect the care patients receive.


As a cross-sectional survey, this study was not able to explain why religious and non-religious physicians differed so markedly in their observations and interpretations, the researchers said.


Yet it is possible, they said, that other factors being equal, physicians with different religious or secular commitments may interpret the same evidence in different ways. What the secular physician may not notice or ignore, the religious physician may emphasize or exaggerate.


The study had important limitations, the investigators wrote. Although the study had a better-than-average response rate and there was no substantial evidence to suggest response bias, religious and other characteristics may have affected physicians' willingness to respond in unmeasured ways.


There may also have been other ways to define physicians' religiosity. However, the analyses found similar relationships for frequency of attendance at religious services and self-reported religiousness, the investigators said.


Limitations, notwithstanding, the investigators said, these findings challenge any attempt to create a single interpretation of the relationship between religion and health. The study lends support to recommendations by the Association of American Medical Colleges that physicians recognize how their own beliefs affect the way they provide care for their patients.


"Future studies should examine the ways physicians' religion (and secular) commitments shape their clinical engagements in these and other domains," Dr. Curlin concluded.


No financial disclosures were reported. The study was funded by the Greenwall Foundation of New York, the Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholars Program, and the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine.



Additional Alternative Medicine Coverage

Primary source: Archives of Internal Medicine
Source reference:
Curlin FA, et al "Physicians' Observations and Interpretations of the Influence of Religion and Spirituality on Health" Arch Intern Med 2007; 167:649-654.
P.S I don't find any theological questions difficult to answer or too thought provoking as to shake the very foundation of my belief system... your inability to accept the answer has more to do with your own heart and psyche than an actual flaw on part of the theists... with that said, I am actually done with this topic... "I toast those who will and those who won't".. but not those who say they will and then decide they won't! (leave that is).. if you catch my drift? as I thought you had long said your goodbyes yet grace us again with your presence?!


peace!
Reply

snakelegs
08-19-2007, 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Not so. I don't believe that they have an afterlife. And I don't have to believe that to find their thinking dangerous and thus oppose it.

oh, ok. if i don't believe that something exists in the first place, or if it does, that what the person is saying about it is wrong - then i see no reason why his beliefs would upset me in any way because the subject doesn't exist. (btw - i have no belief re: afterlife. its something that doesn't really much interest me.)

I am also upset by white supremecists who believe that white people are a superior race and all others are below human. I do not have to observe them acting on these beliefs for me to object to them. Same with those who hold immoral views based on their religions. Racism by the way is not a set of actions, it is a set of beliefs. Those beliefs then lead to actions (Ie, what Hitler was able to do to Jews because his people saw them as inhuman) but the beliefs alone should raise red flags.

the "enemy" is always portrayed as subhuman, simply because it makes them easier to kill. but i agree with you completely.
i have a hard time seeing racism as the same as some christian who is convinced that i will burn in hell forever because i don't believe in christian dogma. that seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Once they do hold such beliefs their paradigm is tilted, and they ARE prone to act and also to spread their dangerous ideas and have those they infect act in unethical ways.

you may have a point here - but if so, then what you are doing could be viewed "pre-emptive strikes" ;D

By opposing Christianity I see myself as opposing the unethical views I noted above.

you have a mission!!! ;D ;D ;D
i don't believe anything that christians believe - but see no reason to oppose them. if i think their views are nonesense, then why would i spend time on the subject?

If they are not following their own Bible, then I'm happy to see that, but they are then obviously Christian in name only. And they still continue to propogate the book, which is filled with these ideas, which will thus gain a foothold again in the future as those they spread it to read it.

the bible is the most violent book i have ever read.

And I seriously think you would be hard pressed to find a Christian who does not believe that Jesus is their saviour, and that his sacrifice erased their sins. That statement contains every one of the negative views I outlined in my opening paragraph. All the other nasty stuff, ie burning witches, homophobia, etc, is just additional negativity added on.

so do you regard every christian as a potential witch hunter, inquisition employee, etc.?


Sometimes one, sometimes the other, sometimes both. In any of these 3 cases, the religion is destructive (its either the cause or its a justifier, or both).

indeed it can be (and has been) extremely destructive. but isn't it a big leap from there to say that we must "correct" the christian next door?



By "this" you mean what? That some "fluff" christians ignore their own religion's teaching? I find that a good thing. I just wish they'd drop the trappings then. If they don't follow the bible and actually oppose its ideas, then they should trash it and create a new and friendlier religion. Otherwise they are enabling others that they spread these ideas to to latch onto them.

i guess i tend to believe that if a person is a hateful, murderous person, he will use whatever tool he has, religion, political ideology, etc. as an excuse or motivation for his crime. it is the act that is the crime.


I do. But that is no reason not to attack it here too. If somebody finds their racism (the analogy you suggested above) to be precious to them, is that any reason not to try to encourage them to question it?

as a non-christian growing up in the 50's, i had christians trying to convert me ever since i was a child. i have very little tolerance for missionaries. to me, trying to force your beliefs on a person, is an attitude of violence and arrogance. i see atheists no differently. they are convinced that they are right, know "the truth" and must correct the "misguided" - can anything be more arrogant or condescending? and the atheist knows "the truth" just as the christian knows "the truth". can you see the similarity?
it reaches the absurd point that someone can post a poem (as was done recently) or interpret something they observe in nature as confirmation of god's existence. you may not agree, but what is wrong with that? why do some atheists (i don't know if you were one of them or not, cuz i just skimmed through it) come rushing out and "correct" him. do you see nothing wrong with that picture, with that attitude???
i see this over and over on this forum and it gets absurd and can be quite irritating.


Yes that was awful. And guess what Bush uses time and time again to push his followers to follow him? Religion. He was elected by appealing to the "religious right" in the US.

absolutely! this concerns me very much - the growth of the christian right and its influence on/in our government. it is very alarming indeed and scary.
but i am not going to pounce on a christian and try to "correct" him.
i deplore racism as much as you do - and maybe for that very reason, i am convinced that we need to learn how to live with and respect people who have other cultures and beliefs.
i am certainly not going to hang around a christian forum so i can preach "the truth" and "enlighten" the simple minded! this is what i don't understand.
now where i will turn in to an intolerant and down right nasty person, is if one of those christians persists in trying to shove his beliefs down my throat - but that is a separate issue and some atheists are not that different!
i don't want unsolicited "enlightenment" from any source!

there are many americans who believe that "we must support our president". this is horrendous! such people are ripe for the picking of someone like hitler, or potentially, bush. another statement that sets off my alarms is "we need a good leader". but i'm sure you no doubt have the same reaction.


Indeed. And I work on this one extensively. I have worked for years now with Concerned Children's Advertiser's freethought wing. Here are links to two of my favourite advertisements they've put out on Canadian TV. I especially like the second one. Its hillarious and very to the point. They also do workshops with kids in schools from kindergarten to high school. As for this avoiding political battles though, think again. There are is a very powerful force within politics fighting against this sort of effort.

http://www.cca-kids.ca/tvandme/english/video/smart.mov
http://www.cca-kids.ca/tvandme/english/video/hippo.mov
this whole subject of advertising and mind control is horrendous. there are people who spend their entire lives buying crap that they are told will make them more beautiful, loveable, successful, happy etc etc - and that they are not good enough the way the are. a whole nation (world?) believing that more things is the solution to everything.

and here is the best part of all. i am trying to change you to believe that it is wrong to try to change people!!!! ;D ;D
Reply

Pygoscelis
08-19-2007, 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by Snakelegs
i have a hard time seeing racism as the same as some christian who is convinced that i will burn in hell forever because i don't believe in christian dogma.
It isn't just that they believe you will burn in hell forever. It is that they AGREE that it is JUST for you to burn in hell forever. You don't have to believe their dogma to see how morally bankrupt it is. And all of these negative views can and do carry over from their religion to their other views. Religious views do not exist in a vacuum.

Christianity teaches self-depreciation (we all deserve eternal torure). And it teaches that belief and worship are the way out instead of works. Those who disbelieve are not to be saved and are to be punished. Is it any wonder that highly religious countries such as the US are highly authoritarian and people there will snap at you for questioning the authority figure? Is it any wonder that disasters in the distant future like global warming are ignored, when a good portion of the country sees the end of the world as soon to come and as being a GOOD THING?

Christianity teaches inherited blame. It says that we should be punished for what our ancestor, Adam did. Can you see bad behavoiurs that may result if this mindset is copied over to other aspects of life?

Christianity teaches that blood and death are the way to make up for wrongdoing, rather than good deeds. It teaches that we are forgiven our sins not by working them off but by the death and torture of Jesus. Is it any suprise that the US allows capital punishment? And that so often punishment is placed above reform and reparation?

Chrisitanity, and most other religions, teach a black and white, good vs evil, God vs Satan view of the world. Is it then any wonder that US politics are so sharply polarized and binary and ingroup/outgroup? "We must destroy the evildoers before they destroy us". "You are with us or against us".

i don't believe anything that christians believe - but see no reason to oppose them. if i think their views are nonesense, then why would i spend time on the subject?
Because their views effect you.

Do you also ignore white supremecists or those who speak speak terrorist sentiments?

the bible is the most violent book i have ever read.
Indeed, and if it were released for the first time today, as a novel or a movie, it would likely be banned as hate speech designed to encourage violence and intolerance. But because it is a religious holy book it is taboo to speak a word against it.

so do you regard every christian as a potential witch hunter, inquisition employee, etc.?
No, because secularism has subdued this part of Christianity in the west. But so long as the bible reads as it does and so long as Christians continue to pass it off as the word of God, the part of Christianity you refer to is merely subdued, not dead, and it could very well rise up again.

but isn't it a big leap from there to say that we must "correct" the christian next door?
I don't advocate "correcting" the christian next door. I don't "correct" the racists next door either. We're not about to round people up like an inquisition.

But we should speak against these things, and we should encourage people to question the authority that pushes these beliefs on them and to question these beliefs themselves by looking at them in other contexts. We should not allow Christian to go unchallanged. Our voices as non believers need to be heard as well.

i guess i tend to believe that if a person is a hateful, murderous person, he will use whatever tool he has, religion, political ideology, etc. as an excuse or motivation for his crime. it is the act that is the crime.
That is true. But its far easier to justify attrocity to yourself and your society when there is a handy religious texts to support it.

And as I mentioned above, many religions encourage hate and intolerance. For example, do you know many non-religious people who oppose same sex couples having equal rights to heterosexual couples? Or is it mostly religous people who take this stance? And if you've asked those religious people why they descriminate like this, have they ever given you good rational and fair explanations, or do they just tell you its an "abonimation" and their God declares it "evil"? At the extreme you've got Fred Phelps - and he and those like him have plenty of bible passages directly backing their views.

it reaches the absurd point that someone can post a poem (as was done recently) or interpret something they observe in nature as confirmation of god's existence. you may not agree, but what is wrong with that? why do some atheists (i don't know if you were one of them or not, cuz i just skimmed through it) come rushing out and "correct" him. do you see nothing wrong with that picture, with that attitude???
I was not one of them. Was it posted in a fellowship section of the board or here in "Comparative Religion"? If the former I'd equate an atheist jumping in and "correcting" the post to somebody rushing into a mosque or church and screaming at everybody. Rude. But if it was here in "Comparative Religion" I see nothing wrong with people pointing out the flaws in the logic.

absolutely! this concerns me very much - the growth of the christian right and its influence on/in our government. it is very alarming indeed and scary.
but i am not going to pounce on a christian and try to "correct" him.
So you are alarmed by the growth of the christian right and its influence but you feel it is wrong to do anything about it?

i am certainly not going to hang around a christian forum so i can preach "the truth" and "enlighten" the simple minded! this is what i don't understand.
Nor will I. I find that offensive too. People like Dawkins (the author of "the god delusion") do more harm than good. But I also won't just sit around and smile as a hateful ideology spreads and tries to control my environment either. That is just as bad, if not worse.

this whole subject of advertising and mind control is horrendous. there are people who spend their entire lives buying crap that they are told will make them more beautiful, loveable, successful, happy etc etc - and that they are not good enough the way the are. a whole nation (world?) believing that more things is the solution to everything.
Yep. They try to control what you wear, what you eat, and what you believe about just about everything so that they can profit from it. Advertising, religion, fashion "trends", it is all the same deal.

and here is the best part of all. i am trying to change you to believe that it is wrong to try to change people!!!!
Tell that to Martin Luther King Jr. It is not wrong to try to change people's beliefs and opinions, especially if those beliefs and opinions are harmful or dangerous. Its just a matter of how you go about it.
Reply

sevgi
08-19-2007, 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
this whole subject of advertising and mind control is horrendous. there are people who spend their entire lives buying crap that they are told will make them more beautiful, loveable, successful, happy etc etc - and that they are not good enough the way the are. a whole nation (world?) believing that more things is the solution to everything.

and here is the best part of all. i am trying to change you to believe that it is wrong to try to change people!!!! ;D ;D
i see where ur getting at snakes...its definietly not nice to see people 'jumping' on one another in order to 'correct' them...

might i impose a new stance tho...perhaps the bible intends to urge its followers not to enforce christian dogma upon others, but to alter their misguided thoughts about christianity...

eg, i am a muslim...in no way do i feel the need or want to convert the people around me...i see that as an act of aggression...but what i do view as my 'mission'-so to speak- is to portray islam the best i can, the way it is truly and answer questions about islam when asked, in order to break the barriers and misunderstandings others may hold against islam and muslims.trying to change their perceptions on islam...not trying to make them accept islam as the one true path of Allah...

if they CHOOSE to convert along the way, halelulja...if not, at least theyve gained something and lost their bias.

about christians...i dnt know if they are all in the same mentality of wanting to 'correct' us infidels...but it may just be a self percieved thing...it may depend on the individual..the verses in the bible may be interpreted in many ways...it probably depends on the initial preecher...i doubt that the bible-due to the fact that they believe it is the word of God himself-is a text overrided with ideologies about correcting the others...i havent read the whole bible, but i have read it and studied it enough to know that half of it doesnt make sense for todays growing christian generation..and the other half is full of trying to convince them that a man was God...

there are missionary movements existent today...and especially in the past...Euro history of the late middle ages is full of it...i find it a little confronting..i mean..even at uni...im there to study...why are u shoving ur beliefs into my face and telling me im going to hell unless i embrace the grace or ur man-god.

its not right...so i agree in a way snakes...but i also think that 'correcting' can be seen in another light as i have presented above.

peace.
Reply

barney
08-19-2007, 07:35 AM
The Bible is no different to the others in terms of violence. It's incorrect to say however that a word cant be said against it.
I'm sure that if i was in the middle of the bible belt of the US and I was to start burning bibles, the reception would be hostile. Mayby some nut would get his winchester out and pop me a cap. Perhaps...perhaps not.

I know I could do the same in England and people would just think I needed to get a life, cos burning books is nuts in itself (Exception: Harry Potter). The majority of people would just not give a monkeys.

In respect of the 2000 odd words about wasting life on forums, compare postcounts. :) Agnostics evangelicalise in my opinion with as much fanatisism as any religious person. Personally, i think it's a waste of time.

More broadly, converting from a religion to atheism or agnostisism is a personal journey as much as vice- versa. How many atheists grab a bible after a visit from the guitar playing door-wallopers? it's as far a leap to take to disbeleive as to beleive. Applying logic to evangelicalise agnostisism or applying spirituality to evangelicalise Theism has zero effect unless the person is open to receive.
Reply

KAding
08-19-2007, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Those who know me from this board probably won't believe me when I type this, but I do the same thing :)

There is indeed a certain group of atheists who try to speak for "atheists" and try to decide what atheists believe. Atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief in Gods. Full stop. That's it. There is nothing else to it. Atheism is not humanism and it is not whatever other ethical system these people try to pin on it. It is ironic when ones try to call themselves "free-thinkers" or "brights" (anybody remember that idiocy?). They are not freethinking; they are blindly following a doctrine, just like religious people do.

That said, this group of "atheists" though outspoken and organized are a very small minority of atheists in general. Most atheists are difficult to organize precisely because they have nothing in common other than their lack of belief in gods and perhaps their concerns about religion doing harm to society (but then not all atheists see religion as harmful).

I must say though, it also annoys me when people speak of writers like Dawkins as "atheist prophets". I don't follow Dawkins and I find him horrid. He doesn't speak for me and he doesn't speak for atheism or for anti-religion. Refering to Dawkins, or Darwin, as "atheist leaders" is a button many theists like to push to annoy atheists, and it works because it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what atheism is and it tries to attribute a group identity and group think to people who usually treasure their free thinking and individuality (If they didn't they'd stay or become the prevailing religion in their community - its a much easier life)
:thumbs_up Well said. I am also not very fond of radical atheists like Dawkins. Atheists don't form a social group and are indeed quite unorganized.
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wilberhum
08-19-2007, 02:54 PM
You ran a random double blind study on what sorts of folks go into surgery?
Doesn’t this kind of rhetorical question work both ways? :rolleyes:

It seems to me that the original insulter would have been very successful doing Social Analysis for the Third Reich. :embarrass
Well I guess not. That would be supporting the superiority of the Aryans and they already know which group is superior. :uuh:

But after thinking about how your belief system should dictate what kind of career one should choose, I came to the following conclusions.
I think agnostics would function best where an open mind is critical.
I think theists would make the best Fairy Tale writers.
I think atheists would function best where critical analysis of facts is paramount.

But then those are just the thoughts of a weak mind agnostic that is really not capable of making a decision. :shade:
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snakelegs
08-21-2007, 03:36 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It isn't just that they believe you will burn in hell forever. It is that they AGREE that it is JUST for you to burn in hell forever. You don't have to believe their dogma to see how morally bankrupt it is. And all of these negative views can and do carry over from their religion to their other views. Religious views do not exist in a vacuum.

Christianity teaches self-depreciation (we all deserve eternal torure). And it teaches that belief and worship are the way out instead of works. Those who disbelieve are not to be saved and are to be punished. Is it any wonder that highly religious countries such as the US are highly authoritarian and people there will snap at you for questioning the authority figure? Is it any wonder that disasters in the distant future like global warming are ignored, when a good portion of the country sees the end of the world as soon to come and as being a GOOD THING?

i agree with all that you have mentioned. we had a secretary of the interior who said we didn't need to worry about the trees because jesus would be coming back soon.
also, i think it is very possible that bush, inc and ahmedinijad will attempt to fullfill the prophecy about armegeddon, which they share.


Christianity teaches inherited blame. It says that we should be punished for what our ancestor, Adam did. Can you see bad behavoiurs that may result if this mindset is copied over to other aspects of life?

yes, of course i do.

Christianity teaches that blood and death are the way to make up for wrongdoing, rather than good deeds. It teaches that we are forgiven our sins not by working them off but by the death and torture of Jesus. Is it any suprise that the US allows capital punishment? And that so often punishment is placed above reform and reparation?

Chrisitanity, and most other religions, teach a black and white, good vs evil, God vs Satan view of the world. Is it then any wonder that US politics are so sharply polarized and binary and ingroup/outgroup? "We must destroy the evildoers before they destroy us". "You are with us or against us".

Because their views effect you.

i agree with most you have written above. these things do me and they concern me a lot. but this is when i think about it in the abstract. when i come across an individual who believes these things, i don't feel any need to try to change them. i hate it when they try to change me - is the answer to do the same thing to them?
we have to live with people of different beliefs. i think these beliefs are harmful but i am not about to try to "save them". i think political action is definitely laudable, in trying to fight tooth and nail attempts by christians to influence our government and nibble away at our separation of church and state. so i think the acts are worthy of criticism.

Do you also ignore white supremecists or those who speak speak terrorist sentiments?

no. i avoid them.
i don't believe for one minute that i could convince them that they were wrong. i have had political arguments with people in the past. we both came away with the same beliefs and opinions that we started out with.



Indeed, and if it were released for the first time today, as a novel or a movie, it would likely be banned as hate speech designed to encourage violence and intolerance. But because it is a religious holy book it is taboo to speak a word against it.

agree.

No, because secularism has subdued this part of Christianity in the west. But so long as the bible reads as it does and so long as Christians continue to pass it off as the word of God, the part of Christianity you refer to is merely subdued, not dead, and it could very well rise up again.

i too, recognise this danger.

I don't advocate "correcting" the christian next door. I don't "correct" the racists next door either. We're not about to round people up like an inquisition.

But we should speak against these things, and we should encourage people to question the authority that pushes these beliefs on them and to question these beliefs themselves by looking at them in other contexts. We should not allow Christian to go unchallanged. Our voices as non believers need to be heard as well.



That is true. But its far easier to justify attrocity to yourself and your society when there is a handy religious texts to support it.

And as I mentioned above, many religions encourage hate and intolerance. For example, do you know many non-religious people who oppose same sex couples having equal rights to heterosexual couples? Or is it mostly religous people who take this stance? And if you've asked those religious people why they descriminate like this, have they ever given you good rational and fair explanations, or do they just tell you its an "abonimation" and their God declares it "evil"? At the extreme you've got Fred Phelps - and he and those like him have plenty of bible passages directly backing their views.



I was not one of them. Was it posted in a fellowship section of the board or here in "Comparative Religion"? If the former I'd equate an atheist jumping in and "correcting" the post to somebody rushing into a mosque or church and screaming at everybody. Rude. But if it was here in "Comparative Religion" I see nothing wrong with people pointing out the flaws in the logic.

it was posted in comparative religion. do you think it possible that a poem such as this (seeing nature as confirmaton of god's existence) might be a good thing because it is something that muslims, christians and jews can agree on - that can bring them together? i think there is value in that.

So you are alarmed by the growth of the christian right and its influence but you feel it is wrong to do anything about it?

no - fight it, if you're an activist type (i confess i am not) - fight their attempts to chisel away at our constitution. but spare somebody's aunt emily from having to hear "The Truth" as you see it, and respect her religious beliefs. again - it's about actions, not beliefs. i agree the beliefs cause the actions, as you've said - but you can only fight the actions.
not every christian is going to do this stuff. there are many very decent people who happen to be christian.
i am convinced that the people who want to do the types of things we've been talking about are that type of people and would be no different if they were marxists instead of christians. many christians find things in their religion that lead them to do positive things.

Nor will I. I find that offensive too. People like Dawkins (the author of "the god delusion") do more harm than good. But I also won't just sit around and smile as a hateful ideology spreads and tries to control my environment either. That is just as bad, if not worse.

so you think you can come to an islamic forum and enlighten the misguided and they will read your comments and say aha! of course! i've been wrong - pygo is right and the qur'an is wrong!

Yep. They try to control what you wear, what you eat, and what you believe about just about everything so that they can profit from it. Advertising, religion, fashion "trends", it is all the same deal.

Tell that to Martin Luther King Jr. It is not wrong to try to change people's beliefs and opinions, especially if those beliefs and opinions are harmful or dangerous. Its just a matter of how you go about it.
i think you are on the belief level and i am on the acts level. it doesn't matter if a person thinks blacks are inferior to him, as long as he accepts the fact that there is something unfair about discrimination and that it is wrong. (i've known people like this - who will admit their own racism and at the same time, realize that injustice needs to be corrected).

and yes, i guess our disagreent bascially centres around how you go about it.
mind control is much easier for people to grasp when it is in a more neutral territory such as advertising.
you might (or might not) want to ask yourself why millions of christians have their beliefs and read their holy books for inspiration and are led to try to be better human beings in their dealings with their fellow men, and some christians, reading the same holy books, will feel compelled to do a terrorist act - like murder a doctor or bomb an abortion clinic.
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snakelegs
08-21-2007, 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by sumeyye
i see where ur getting at snakes...its definietly not nice to see people 'jumping' on one another in order to 'correct' them...

might i impose a new stance tho...perhaps the bible intends to urge its followers not to enforce christian dogma upon others, but to alter their misguided thoughts about christianity...

i confess - i have never read the "new testament". i don't think christians are any more or less misguided than i am, even though i don't share their beliefs.
if you mean, the way they go about trying to convert people, i don't know if they are misguided or following what their book tells them. but i have noticed that christians vary widely in the amount of effort they feel complelled to devote to this (proselytizing) aspect of their religion.

eg, i am a muslim...in no way do i feel the need or want to convert the people around me...i see that as an act of aggression...but what i do view as my 'mission'-so to speak- is to portray islam the best i can, the way it is truly and answer questions about islam when asked, in order to break the barriers and misunderstandings others may hold against islam and muslims.trying to change their perceptions on islam...not trying to make them accept islam as the one true path of Allah...

if they CHOOSE to convert along the way, halelulja...if not, at least theyve gained something and lost their bias.

your religion tells you that you should do dawah.
i have never known a muslim to go about this the same way christians do.
dawah means invitation, i believe. and this seems to be the muslim approach. they put the food on the table and invite you but they don't try to force you into your chair and force feed you! it is a difference that i appreciate.

about christians...i dnt know if they are all in the same mentality of wanting to 'correct' us infidels...but it may just be a self percieved thing...it may depend on the individual..the verses in the bible may be interpreted in many ways...it probably depends on the initial preecher...i doubt that the bible-due to the fact that they believe it is the word of God himself-is a text overrided with ideologies about correcting the others...i havent read the whole bible, but i have read it and studied it enough to know that half of it doesnt make sense for todays growing christian generation..and the other half is full of trying to convince them that a man was God...

yes - it strictly depends on the individual. i was talking about this in my last post (to pygo). there are just as many decent christians, as there are muslims, agnostics, atheists etc etc
i disagree with most things about christianity, but i can respect the individual, who is prompted by their religion to be a decent human being.

there are missionary movements existent today...and especially in the past...Euro history of the late middle ages is full of it...i find it a little confronting..i mean..even at uni...im there to study...why are u shoving ur beliefs into my face and telling me im going to hell unless i embrace the grace or ur man-god.

its not right...so i agree in a way snakes...but i also think that 'correcting' can be seen in another light as i have presented above.

peace.
yes, there is a different way of looking at it. but something in me just simply does not want to be "corrected" and i really don't want to "correct" anyone else either.
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barney
08-21-2007, 03:47 AM
If a Christian bombs a clinic, a Muslim smashes a Skyscraper or a Atheist murders a Child, they are following Humanitys natural instincts for destruction.

The only difference is the rational they give themselves.
A Christian will beleive he is doing Gods work, so will a muslim, the Atheist is following their own self-interests or insanitys.
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Pygoscelis
08-21-2007, 04:15 AM
Not sure how you're doing it but your posts are showing your text inside quoteboxes, making them unquotable and I'm having to cut and paste to reply to you.

Originally Posted by Snakelegs
when i come across an individual who believes these things, i don't feel any need to try to change them.
If I can do anything that could change them, I will. You say you agree that their mentality is dangrous and does us harm and then you say we should make no effort to change their mentality.

If they are so far gone that its pointless then sure, leave them be. But if they are young and their ideas are maleable, that is when to reach them and either safeguard them from this insanity or pull them back from it.

it was posted in comparative religion. do you think it possible that a poem such as this (seeing nature as confirmaton of god's existence) might be a good thing because it is something that muslims, christians and jews can agree on - that can bring them together? i think there is value in that.
I went back and looked for the post and found it. I see abosolutely nothing wrong with criticizing a post entitled "there is a god - take a glance" when its in a "comparative religion section". It is a claim being made, and a insinuation that all should agree with that claim by "taking a glance". As I said above, if this was posted in a fellowship room thats one thing, but posted here it is little more than a provocative statement.

but spare somebody's aunt emily from having to hear "The Truth" as you see it, and respect her religious beliefs.
As I said before I don't go hunt down harmless grandmas on their death beds clinging to their delusions.

but you can only fight the actions.
Not true. You can fight the beliefs. We do it all the time for other beliefs, why not this one? You can especially fight the beliefs by reaching the young impressionable minds these people are brainwashing.

so you think you can come to an islamic forum and enlighten the misguided and they will read your comments and say aha! of course! i've been wrong - pygo is right and the qur'an is wrong!
Now you are building straw men.

it doesn't matter if a person thinks blacks are inferior to him, as long as he accepts the fact that there is something unfair about discrimination and that it is wrong.
That is quite a mental contortion. If you truly believe blacks are inferior or a "lesser race" why would you think it unfair or wrong to discriminate against them and put yourself above them? Thats a direct contradiction.

mind control is much easier for people to grasp when it is in a more neutral territory such as advertising.
It is nowhere near as neutral territory or lacking in political charge as you seem to think. Consider those inane PC vs Apple fights back in the day by their users, or try to switch a trendy teenage girl's brand name jeans and sweaters with generic brand X stuff. :)
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barney
08-21-2007, 04:25 AM
Yah, interesting tpic here. Us Aggys and Atthys are here for one of three reasons.
1)we want to find God, we think we will find him in Islam.
2) we are here to convert people by use of logic and science into throwing away their dusty old tomes and get everyone into the hip 'n happening modern age WhOOOO!
3) We are interested in religions and wonder what answers the Theists have for our logic. we know we wont change a Theist's mind, but love to poke about exploring religio-psychosocial frameworks.

(i'm number 3 BTW)
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snakelegs
08-21-2007, 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Not sure how you're doing it but your posts are showing your text inside quoteboxes, making them unquotable and I'm having to cut and paste to reply to you.
apologies. i was doing it the lazy way.



If I can do anything that could change them, I will. You say you agree that their mentality is dangrous and does us harm and then you say we should make no effort to change their mentality.

If they are so far gone that its pointless then sure, leave them be. But if they are young and their ideas are maleable, that is when to reach them and either safeguard them from this insanity or pull them back from it.


I went back and looked for the post and found it. I see abosolutely nothing wrong with criticizing a post entitled "there is a god - take a glance" when its in a "comparative religion section". It is a claim being made, and a insinuation that all should agree with that claim by "taking a glance". As I said above, if this was posted in a fellowship room thats one thing, but posted here it is little more than a provocative statement.
we'll just disagree.

As I said before I don't go hunt down harmless grandmas on their death beds clinging to their delusions.
i don't see how you can be so confident that her beliefs are "delusions". i don't share any christian beliefs at all that i am aware of. but i cannot say they are deluded. religion is belief. belief can not, by its very nature, be proven one way or the other. maybe christians are right, for all i know. i just don't share their beliefs.


Not true. You can fight the beliefs. We do it all the time for other beliefs, why not this one? You can especially fight the beliefs by reaching the young impressionable minds these people are brainwashing.
you are trying to brainwash them that they have been brainwashed and deluded by their religious teachings.


Now you are building straw men.
am i? why does an atheist hang around a religious forum?



That is quite a mental contortion. If you truly believe blacks are inferior or a "lesser race" why would you think it unfair or wrong to discriminate against them and put yourself above them? Thats a direct contradiction.
indeed it is, but i have actually met such people.



It is nowhere near as neutral territory or lacking in political charge as you seem to think. Consider those inane PC vs Apple fights back in the day by their users, or try to switch a trendy teenage girl's brand name jeans and sweaters with generic brand X stuff. :)
not sure what you are saying here. i don't have tv or listen to commercial radio, so i don't really see many ads - pretty much just bill boards and the few magazines i read. (they're pretty easy to ignore in magazines).
if you want to show people how they are manipulated by television or advertising, i think they will be much able to hear you than if you try telling someone that their religion is wrong.
creepy part of it is that i think a lot of people are of this, but continue to be dictated to out of fear of being different. so you may convince them to believe that they can still be a happy human being without the latest designer jeans.... and they will still continue to waste money on them. even though their beliefs may have changed - their actions will remain the same.
and this is the really scary part!
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Pygoscelis
08-21-2007, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i don't see how you can be so confident that her beliefs are "delusions". i don't share any christian beliefs at all that i am aware of. but i cannot say they are deluded. religion is belief. belief can not, by its very nature, be proven one way or the other. maybe christians are right, for all i know. i just don't share their beliefs.
And perhaps that guy in the assylum really IS napoleon.

Regardless of if they are right or not, they teach an ideology that is offensive and dangerous (you agreed to this above). Ideologies that are offensive and dangerous should be fought and resisted, and we should save young minds from falling into them.. It doesn't matter if we are talking about white supremecy, fascism, or christianity. Have you seen that now infamous documentary "Jesus Camp". Would you make no effort to reach and rescue such young minds if you could?

am i? why does an atheist hang around a religious forum?
I do it for a variety of reasons. Barney shares one with me (see the post directly above your last one). I was a psychology major in my undergrad. I studied social cognition and a part of that is the psychology of group think and of religion. Living where I do I don't have much access to muslim minds other than here.

Another reason to read islamic boards is concern and investigation. After all the 9/11 hype, Islam became a more interesting religion to me. Is it as horrible as the US media makes it out to be? Does it repress women? Does it lead to terrorism? Is it as negative, dangerous, and offensive a mindset as Christianity? Should I fight it? Should I protect muslims when they are verbally attacked by Christians (I can identify with them when they are)? And I have discovered that while some dangers about Islam the west talks about are exagerated or flatly wrong (and its amazing just how wrong), others are never mentioned.

Another reason is the one you point to as the only reason - to possibly reach some people and help them. That is not my main reason for being here and I expect it isn't anybody's because it is rarely effective, but it can and does happen from time to time. Not everybody who reads boards such as these, especially in a "comparative religion section", are die hard believers. Some lurkers who don't post are doubters and if I can help them progress, why would I not?

indeed it is, but i have actually met such people.
I think there is a good chance that they are trying to reconcile their internal beliefs (racism) with the external pressures of political correctness. They may be telling you what they think you want to hear so they can appear in a good light to you.

not sure what you are saying here. i don't have tv or listen to commercial radio, so i don't really see many ads - pretty much just bill boards and the few magazines i read. (they're pretty easy to ignore in magazines).
There are people who get as caught up in and as victimized by advertising and other group think (trends) as those who get caught up in religion.

if you want to show people how they are manipulated by television or advertising, i think they will be much able to hear you than if you try telling someone that their religion is wrong.
What about when both are involved? Televangelists who swindle people out of their money. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Peter Popoff (my personal favourite), Jack Van Impe. How do you feel about talking to their victims? Is it different than how you feel about the victims of other frauds?

creepy part of it is that i think a lot of people are of this, but continue to be dictated to out of fear of being different. so you may convince them to believe that they can still be a happy human being without the latest designer jeans.... and they will still continue to waste money on them. even though their beliefs may have changed - their actions will remain the same.
and this is the really scary part!
The exact same thing happens when people break free from religion. There are far more doubters and atheists in the closet than there are open atheists. And think about how much more difficult it is to come out as an atheist than to come out as no longer liking Coca-Cola. You're not likely to get shunned by your friends or disowned by your family for the latter.
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snakelegs
08-22-2007, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
And perhaps that guy in the assylum really IS napoleon.

Regardless of if they are right or not, they teach an ideology that is offensive and dangerous (you agreed to this above). Ideologies that are offensive and dangerous should be fought and resisted, and we should save young minds from falling into them.. It doesn't matter if we are talking about white supremecy, fascism, or christianity. Have you seen that now infamous documentary "Jesus Camp". Would you make no effort to reach and rescue such young minds if you could?
how do you account for the many people who read the same holy book, and are not affected by all the horrendous stuff, but moved by the positive stuff and inspired to be better people, more compassionate to other living beings?

I do it for a variety of reasons. Barney shares one with me (see the post directly above your last one). I was a psychology major in my undergrad. I studied social cognition and a part of that is the psychology of group think and of religion. Living where I do I don't have much access to muslim minds other than here.

Another reason to read islamic boards is concern and investigation. After all the 9/11 hype, Islam became a more interesting religion to me. Is it as horrible as the US media makes it out to be? Does it repress women? Does it lead to terrorism? Is it as negative, dangerous, and offensive a mindset as Christianity? Should I fight it? Should I protect muslims when they are verbally attacked by Christians (I can identify with them when they are)? And I have discovered that while some dangers about Islam the west talks about are exagerated or flatly wrong (and its amazing just how wrong), others are never mentioned.

Another reason is the one you point to as the only reason - to possibly reach some people and help them. That is not my main reason for being here and I expect it isn't anybody's because it is rarely effective, but it can and does happen from time to time. Not everybody who reads boards such as these, especially in a "comparative religion section", are die hard believers. Some lurkers who don't post are doubters and if I can help them progress, why would I not?
you are on a mission! :giggling:
seriously, thanks for your honest answer.



I think there is a good chance that they are trying to reconcile their internal beliefs (racism) with the external pressures of political correctness. They may be telling you what they think you want to hear so they can appear in a good light to you.
possibly. i am thinking of a couple of old people from the south. they confessed that they were unable to change their thinking about blacks but nevertheless accepted the premise that discrimination was wrong and at least tried to judge each individual as an individual.



There are people who get as caught up in and as victimized by advertising and other group think (trends) as those who get caught up in religion.



What about when both are involved? Televangelists who swindle people out of their money. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Peter Popoff (my personal favourite), Jack Van Impe. How do you feel about talking to their victims? Is it different than how you feel about the victims of other frauds?
this combo is frightening indeed. i never heard of peter popoff (name makes me laugh). it has also armed christian missionaries with huge piles of money to go to poor countries and buy people (the missionary industry). i have some hindu friends who are very upset at this practice in india. in addition to adopting a foreign religion, they adopt a negative view of their own culture.

The exact same thing happens when people break free from religion. There are far more doubters and atheists in the closet than there are open atheists. And think about how much more difficult it is to come out as an atheist than to come out as no longer liking Coca-Cola. You're not likely to get shunned by your friends or disowned by your family for the latter.
i would question whether the atheist who spends time arguing with religious people has really broken free from his religion or is just practicing its polar opposite.
you are right though - in many parts of the country, you keep quiet if you're an atheist.
i consider myself very lucky to have been born neither in to a religion or in to an "anti-religion".
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wilberhum
08-22-2007, 09:22 PM
how do you account for the many people who read the same holy book, and are not affected by all the horrendous stuff, but moved by the positive stuff and inspired to be better people, more compassionate to other living beings?
People always find justification for what they want to do.

Want to harm those that have harmed you, an eye for an eye.
Don't want to harm them, turn the other cheek.

So I can do what I want and still follow the "Good Book".
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Pygoscelis
08-23-2007, 03:36 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
how do you account for the many people who read the same holy book, and are not affected by all the horrendous stuff, but moved by the positive stuff
Most of them have never read the bible. Seriously. Getting these folks to read it is one very effective way of turning them away from the religion. Its amazing how many times I have seen it happen. You'd think they'd have read their book, but no. And they are shocked to see what it ACTUALLY SAYS. Others will turn a blind eye and ignore the obvious horribleness in their bible, prefering to pretend it isn't there.

I actually know one self-professed christian who it turns out supports everything polar opposite to his religion and his god's commandments but doesn't seem to either realize it or want to admit it to himself. He himself is a homosexual as well and sees no conflict between that and his faith.

you are on a mission! :giggling:
Not really. You seem to be lacking reading comprehension, or you're being dishonest and trying to force words and ideas into me.

i never heard of peter popoff
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff is pretty accurate.

He is the guy who will heal you with his miracle water (really from his tap) that he'll send to you if you send his ministry a "donation". He will also bring you good business fortune and pretty much anything else you've ever wanted - so long as you support his ministry and send your donations (which increase over time).

Hundreds of americans have fallen for his ridiculus fraud, a fraud which SHOULD be obvious to anybody not desperate and completely brainwashed by religion.

So what do you think about his victims as compared to the victims of a regular secular scam? (like those people who call up old ladies and tell them they've won a million dollars and just have to send the access fee or whatever and it'll be theirs).

Does it being a religious scam make you more hesitant to try to save the victims of it?

Does it being a religious scam make you less willing to call out for prosecution of those who practice it?

If yes, you're right in the mainstream american view. Popoff, though completely exposed as a fraud long ago (which was highly publicized on Johny Carson's show) was never prosecuted. He has never paid a fine or anything as far as I'm aware. His scam "ministry" went bankrupt for a while following the exposee but he bounced back pretty quick and is right back at his old activities. You can buy his "miracle water" today.

We should not not respect frauds and hate and bigotry because those speaking it shroud it in "religion", but many many of us do just that. It is an idiotic unquestioning respect our society has for all things "religious" that does that. Those magic words "Jesus" and "faith" are CONSTANTLY being used to make criticisms taboo and to win cheap support. Politicians do it all the time. It needs to stop.

i would question whether the atheist who spends time arguing with religious people has really broken free from his religion or is just practicing its polar opposite.
There is a backlash phenomenon when people first break free from their former religion, that is true. Often they are angry at those who have misled them for so long and often they will become quite passionate and lash out and argue with believers, just as a believers do. They usually mellow with time and join the rest of us though.

All atheists SHOULD be able to see the dangers of group think and religious programming, simply by being constantly surrounded by it. And many atheists do think where possible action should be taken to combat it, especially when the danger becomes immediate.

you are right though - in many parts of the country, you keep quiet if you're an atheist.
And that needs to change. And it is, slowly but surely, even in the deepest sectors of the bible belt.

i consider myself very lucky to have been born neither in to a religion or in to an "anti-religion".
I was born atheist (as are all people) and my family only dabbled in religion. My father I actually suspect was an atheist but went along with religion to please my mother. My mother was one of those feel-good christians from the top paragraph above who never read the bible and followed exactly zero of its directoins. She just wanted to believe to have a warm fuzzy and a sense of belonging I think.
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zarhad
08-23-2007, 03:52 AM
See personally I cant relate I had two parents who wernt really religious, we ate halal at home that was about it, unfortinatly after my grandfather passed away my father said he was "athiest" it was very difficult for him, but i dont condone him rejecting religion...
now the funny thing is personally i have always believed in Allah with out either of my parents even mentioning the word God in our house, even when my father proclaimined other wise i didnt believe him...I was actually mad at him, and it hurt our relationship.

My mother being a non muslim and my father being muslim people are generally suprised with how religious i am...i always strive to learn more and be better as most do but im diffrent then everyone in my family.

none of them pray, or fast or give charity and i try my best to do all of them.
so personally i cant understand agnostic being "unsure of what they believed" because even as young as 5 or 6 i can remeber talking to god in my own way ( i didnt learn to pray untill high school) and feeling the presence of allah all around me. I look at the wonderious and beautiful things round me and wonder how someone could be "unsure" or even so nieve to believe there is no higher being (tobah)

I also had a religious dream and a near death experence that would make most non believers roll there eyes...but i know what happened i know what i feel and i am not just conforming to anthing im really truly confident in my beliefs and the feelings i have and research ive done
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snakelegs
08-23-2007, 05:20 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Most of them have never read the bible. Seriously. Getting these folks to read it is one very effective way of turning them away from the religion. Its amazing how many times I have seen it happen. You'd think they'd have read their book, but no. And they are shocked to see what it ACTUALLY SAYS. Others will turn a blind eye and ignore the obvious horribleness in their bible, prefering to pretend it isn't there.

I actually know one self-professed christian who it turns out supports everything polar opposite to his religion and his god's commandments but doesn't seem to either realize it or want to admit it to himself. He himself is a homosexual as well and sees no conflict between that and his faith.
you're right that many have not even read the book. still, you will find that 2 people given the same material, a book, a lecture etc. will focus on different aspects of it over other aspects, since everyone has filters. so the individual's "receptors" will determine what parts he hears/reads.



Not really. You seem to be lacking reading comprehension, or you're being dishonest and trying to force words and ideas into me.
i am half joking, but you are doing something similar to a missionary in that you are trying to change people's beliefs. so i use the word in the broad sense of the term. maybe it is incorrect. you believe that you are right and they are misguided and it is your duty to enlighten them.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff is pretty accurate.

He is the guy who will heal you with his miracle water (really from his tap) that he'll send to you if you send his ministry a "donation". He will also bring you good business fortune and pretty much anything else you've ever wanted - so long as you support his ministry and send your donations (which increase over time).

Hundreds of americans have fallen for his ridiculus fraud, a fraud which SHOULD be obvious to anybody not desperate and completely brainwashed by religion.

So what do you think about his victims as compared to the victims of a regular secular scam? (like those people who call up old ladies and tell them they've won a million dollars and just have to send the access fee or whatever and it'll be theirs).

Does it being a religious scam make you more hesitant to try to save the victims of it?

Does it being a religious scam make you less willing to call out for prosecution of those who practice it?
personally, i am much too busy in my own little world. however, you are right - in theory there is no difference here between religious scams and other scams. the gullible make good prey.



If yes, you're right in the mainstream american view. Popoff, though completely exposed as a fraud long ago (which was highly publicized on Johny Carson's show) was never prosecuted. He has never paid a fine or anything as far as I'm aware. His scam "ministry" went bankrupt for a while following the exposee but he bounced back pretty quick and is right back at his old activities. You can buy his "miracle water" today.

We should not not respect frauds and hate and bigotry because those speaking it shroud it in "religion", but many many of us do just that. It is an idiotic unquestioning respect our society has for all things "religious" that does that. Those magic words "Jesus" and "faith" are CONSTANTLY being used to make criticisms taboo and to win cheap support. Politicians do it all the time. It needs to stop.
i agree. are we talking about the use of religion for selfish gain or about the entire religion itself?
mind control and manipulation goes on at all levels - and i think it is right to fight this. (tho i am not a fighter).


There is a backlash phenomenon when people first break free from their former religion, that is true. Often they are angry at those who have misled them for so long and often they will become quite passionate and lash out and argue with believers, just as a believers do. They usually mellow with time and join the rest of us though.

All atheists SHOULD be able to see the dangers of group think and religious programming, simply by being constantly surrounded by it. And many atheists do think where possible action should be taken to combat it, especially when the danger becomes immediate.
well, this makes sense of course. still, i say the culprit is groupthink and programming and religion may be a symptom of that, but i don't think it's the cause.



And that needs to change. And it is, slowly but surely, even in the deepest sectors of the bible belt.



I was born atheist (as are all people) and my family only dabbled in religion. My father I actually suspect was an atheist but went along with religion to please my mother. My mother was one of those feel-good christians from the top paragraph above who never read the bible and followed exactly zero of its directoins. She just wanted to believe to have a warm fuzzy and a sense of belonging I think.
in general, i would agree - these things do need to change. yet i think there are people who follow a religious teaching not because some cleric said so, but because his experience confirms it, it makes sense to him intuitively etc.
it is difficult for me to discuss this because altho i believe in god, i am anti-religion. but something in me just bristles at preaching - be it in the name of religion, politics or laundry detergent.
i think you and i share many views. i just don't agree with you that one should criticize and pass judgment on religious people. i have known many who were fine human beings and far from morons, who questioned and contemplated. so when some atheists say stuff like god doesn't exist and you are deluded - this seems as wrong to me as a christian missionary telling me that i am blind because i don't share his belief in jesus.
so in the end, on this aspect, we will have to disagree.
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Ebtisweetsam
09-01-2007, 09:21 AM
So if an agnostic believs in God, does he believe in Life after Death?
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sevgi
09-01-2007, 10:29 AM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
So if an agnostic believs in God, does he believe in Life after Death?
not that i know of...life after death is a production of faith...in islam...it is one of the six pillars...

for agnostics..the only belief they have is that there exists a God....

perhaps it also falls into individual perceptions...there are no guidlines to being an agnostic..so views or beliefs of life after death may vary.

salams.
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ranma1/2
09-01-2007, 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
So if an agnostic believs in God, does he believe in Life after Death?
Yes, No, maybe.
That is a seperate subject.
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poga
09-01-2007, 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
I know this may sound dumb- its confusing enough to work out the difference between a christain and a catholic..... but what is a agnostic?
:sl: agnostic is the person who agonise and suffers with belief and disbelief
they try to understand the faith with knowledge and logic alone and knowledge and logic needs supporing evidence while sign of ALLAH is every where but ALLAH is AL BATIN therefore faithful are he who believes the unseen ALLAH :w:
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snakelegs
09-01-2007, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
So if an agnostic believs in God, does he believe in Life after Death?
hi,
agnostics are a varied group so i can only speak for myself. i believe in god but not in an afterlife. i realize that it is possible that there may be one, but nothing in my experience has led me to believe that there is.
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Isambard
09-01-2007, 06:07 PM
Perhaps its just me, but if you believe in God, you are not an agnostic.

From my understanding, believing in God but not knowing anything else makes more in-line with Deism than agnosticism
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snakelegs
09-01-2007, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by poga
:sl: agnostic is the person who agonise and suffers with belief and disbelief
they try to understand the faith with knowledge and logic alone and knowledge and logic needs supporing evidence while sign of ALLAH is every where but ALLAH is AL BATIN therefore faithful are he who believes the unseen ALLAH :w:
actually, at least speaking for myself, i do not agonize over this at all. i have always been agnostic. most of my life i did not believe in god, but in recent years i have come to believe in god. i have never had any struggles with belief and disbelief or felt a need to find a religion.
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wilberhum
09-02-2007, 02:32 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Perhaps its just me, but if you believe in God, you are not an agnostic.

From my understanding, believing in God but not knowing anything else makes more in-line with Deism than agnosticism
I believe in god. But not the god as described by theists.
I know that god is not provable. From that I conclude we know nothing about him. And likewise, no one else does either.

So what do you call some one who knows we can not know?

I call them agnostic.
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Isambard
09-02-2007, 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I believe in god. But not the god as described by theists.
I know that god is not provable. From that I conclude we know nothing about him. And likewise, no one else does either.

So what do you call some one who knows we can not know?

I call them agnostic.
"Deism derives the existence and nature of God from reason and personal experience, in contrast to theism (with religions like Christianity, Islam and Judaism) which relies on revelation in sacred scriptures or the testimony of other people.

Deists typically reject supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God does not interfere with human life and the laws of the universe. Deists commonly respect divine revelation prominent in organized religion, along with holy books as conveying the reasoning and personal experience of others."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

You sound pretty 'deistic' to me :P
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sevgi
09-02-2007, 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
"Deism derives the existence and nature of God from reason and personal experience, in contrast to theism (with religions like Christianity, Islam and Judaism) which relies on revelation in sacred scriptures or the testimony of other people.

Deists typically reject supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God does not interfere with human life and the laws of the universe. Deists commonly respect divine revelation prominent in organized religion, along with holy books as conveying the reasoning and personal experience of others."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

You sound pretty 'deistic' to me :P
just to note on ur first point....theists derive the existence and nature of god from a combination of reason and personal experience and on revelation which aids in the illumination of such reason and personal experienece...the revelations serve...if interpreted well, as a users handbook for the universe...it teaches us how to read the world ane personal experiences etc...and find God therein...well in islam anyway...

i shud edit wikipedia...:P
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poga
09-02-2007, 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
So if an agnostic believs in God, does he believe in Life after Death?
:sl:
group people found them self in dung hole
and agnostic among them started discussion how they end up there
but one simple human among them said we know this is sh#t what there to discuss men lets get out of here
but he was silenced as blind believer:w:
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Pygoscelis
09-03-2007, 03:42 AM
That made no sense. Coherency please :)
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barney
09-03-2007, 11:34 PM
Nope...that all beats the hell outta me. Not a clue.

The fish strikes radishes opulantly.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-03-2007, 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I believe in god. But not the god as described by theists.
I know that god is not provable. From that I conclude we know nothing about him. And likewise, no one else does either.

So what do you call some one who knows we can not know?

I call them agnostic.
i understand where your coming from :).

but you see the problem here is that, would anyone create anything without an instruction manual? If i was to create a complex machine full of intricacies i would at least create an instruction manual so that the person who uses it knows what till ruin it and what will prosper it.

You see in this same way we believe that over the billions of years Allah has been sending prophets and messengers (which number 124,000) to teach us from the manuals. Because the instructions arent always enough, we might have the book and not understand it, we also need teachers. Does it not make sense that the most merciful will send guidance to his creatures?
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wilberhum
09-04-2007, 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
i understand where your coming from :).

but you see the problem here is that, would anyone create anything without an instruction manual? If i was to create a complex machine full of intricacies i would at least create an instruction manual so that the person who uses it knows what till ruin it and what will prosper it.

You see in this same way we believe that over the billions of years Allah has been sending prophets and messengers (which number 124,000) to teach us from the manuals. Because the instructions arent always enough, we might have the book and not understand it, we also need teachers. Does it not make sense that the most merciful will send guidance to his creatures?
A major difference between us is that you think we are the result of a multi billion year plan.

I think we are the result of random chances.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-04-2007, 05:14 PM
^ lol but then how does God fit into it? You mean this God you think that exists is just a universal power, the starter, the initiator but he controls nothing :?
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wilberhum
09-04-2007, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
^ lol but then how does God fit into it? You mean this God you think that exists is just a universal power, the starter, the initiator but he controls nothing :?
How does god fit into it? I don't know. (That is the advantage of being Agnostic:D )

But I don't think we are a big concern.
If we were, surly most of the horrible things in this world would not exist.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-04-2007, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
But I don't think we are a big concern.
If we were, surly most of the horrible things in this world would not exist.
i see, to me it sounds like you dislike the idea of this world being a means of a test which means that much harsh suffering must be endured, im not saying its an easy concept to grasp :).

but if you really do think about it then there is also much mercy in this world, much which cant be explained. Theres also much we dont know of how God is distributing his justice, much we cant see. So what makes us good judges? isnt it best to go by what seems most evident, to me this is islam... to you it may be something else..
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wilberhum
09-04-2007, 06:04 PM
IbnAbdulHakim,
I find "Life is a test", illogical. God would already know the results, Right?

Isn't it best to go by what seems most evident?
Yes, to you this is islam. To me it is something else.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-04-2007, 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
IbnAbdulHakim,
I find "Life is a test", illogical. God would already know the results, Right?
isnt it more illogical for God to put you into hell and tell you that you've done all these bad deeds? and then when you ask "what when? WHERE?" he will say "well my knowledge ascertains that you would have done it had i placed you on earth". You would want that time right?


so isnt it more logical that we go through this test?
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wilberhum
09-04-2007, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
isnt it more illogical for God to put you into hell and tell you that you've done all these bad deeds? and then when you ask "what when? WHERE?" he will say "well my knowledge ascertains that you would have done it had i placed you on earth". You would want that time right?


so isnt it more logical that we go through this test?
I don't think there is a hell.
If god created someone he knew was going to hell, I would think god has an evil side.
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Pygoscelis
09-05-2007, 04:25 AM
Indeed.

It is interesting how so many assume that given God exists, he must be good.

THe only way that would be a logical assumption is if you define "good" as "God's Will", which I think some theists actually do. And then "good" and ethical/constructive/friendly/kind become entirely different concepts.
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barney
09-06-2007, 06:52 AM
The idea of a "bad" or "Evil" God.
One that causes Droughts and famines, earthquakes that kill 200000 and Tsunami's that kill 400000.

A lot of Theists feel these "Acts of God" are acts of God.
Now God will "Do as he pleases" and ""Punish those he sees fit", so obviously the several thousands of babies who died during these acts would have grown up "Evil" and therefore deserved to die. Who are we to argue otherwise!
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-06-2007, 08:47 AM
^ or maybe those babies were saved from a harsh life and given solace in jannah (paradise) :)
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barney
09-06-2007, 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
^ or maybe those babies were saved from a harsh life and given solace in jannah (paradise) :)
Or mayby just had a harsh life and got wiped out regardless? Why get born in the first place then?
And every single one of them was going to have a harsh life? and they all happened to live in the path of a tidle wave?

That kind of reasoning staggers be to be honest. It's such a laughable concept i cant begin to understand it.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-06-2007, 10:19 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Or mayby just had a harsh life and got wiped out regardless? Why get born in the first place then?
And every single one of them was going to have a harsh life? and they all happened to live in the path of a tidle wave?

That kind of reasoning staggers be to be honest. It's such a laughable concept i cant begin to understand it.
every single one of your comments is based on the opinion that this life is made for luxury and indulgence, but my comments come from the view that this life is a mere delay, what comes next is the real life. Whatever happens to those babies is what Allah knows best, see once again , without an afterlife, without a day of judgement, without a just God who is all knowing all wise, you cant answer any of these.
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czgibson
09-06-2007, 01:05 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
every single one of your comments is based on the opinion that this life is made for luxury and indulgence, but my comments come from the view that this life is a mere delay, what comes next is the real life. Whatever happens to those babies is what Allah knows best, see once again , without an afterlife, without a day of judgement, without a just God who is all knowing all wise, you cant answer any of these.
I can't really make sense of your position here. You assume Allah is just, and that therefore whatever happens fits in with his will, which we humans cannot grasp. It's a very obvious sidestep to face the problem of evil, which remains unanswered.

Your last sentence gives the game away:

Whatever happens to those babies is what Allah knows best, see once again , without an afterlife, without a day of judgement, without a just God who is all knowing all wise, you cant answer any of these.
This is exactly why the concept of an afterlife was invented: to comfort people who couldn't handle the scary fact of death, especially when it strikes us as unfair, as in the case of dead infants.

Peace
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guyabano
09-06-2007, 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
This is exactly why the concept of an afterlife was invented: to comfort people who couldn't handle the scary fact of death, especially when it strikes us as unfair, as in the case of dead infants.
Oh, so true. As if somebody just switch off the light, and that's it ! There is no hell or paradise.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-06-2007, 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I can't really make sense of your position here. You assume Allah is just, and that therefore whatever happens fits in with his will, which we humans cannot grasp.
Yes, this is exactly what im saying. I can actually come to terms with Allahs justice but thats only because i really believe he exists, and with that belief tags along the belief of the afterlife.

You see you might find it barbaric that God takes away a young child but given the circumstances of that young child, if we knew whats in the childs heart etc maybe we wouldnt hold the same opinion. Allah knows whats in everyones hearts and does not overburden anyone.

Its all logical, There must be an initiator to everything and for there to be an initiator there must be someone without a beginning, that someone must be extremely intelligent (obviously) and in his justice must work in mysterious ways. A part of that mystery has been revealed via prophets for our own peace. Now if you want to think that we only came about for 60-70 years of toiling in hardship then thats up to you, i believe in the prophets sent down and the books revealed which say that indeed this life is a mere test, and the rewards will be given out afterwards.

This is exactly why the concept of an afterlife was invented: to comfort people who couldn't handle the scary fact of death, especially when it strikes us as unfair, as in the case of dead infants.

Peace
You made me think about this, and do you know what i thought? I think if i was in your position then i probably would have come to the same conclusion as you have. But i am not in your position, i have grown up reading about islam, researching on the life of Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam and it is impossible for me to conclude otherwise then Allah does indeed exist and will take into account all sins and injustice. I am not scared about deaths appearing "injust", infact if i wasnt a muslim i probably wouldnt even be discussing this, i would probably be out there having "fun" the non-muslim way. After i take into consideration all the evidences, the facts, the results which have stemmed from the past which is visible through the conduct and history of the muslims today and the past, then it is easy for me to conclude that a man did indeed one day come down preaching a message, and that man was neither a liar as his people have admitted, a soothsayer as his people admitted, a magician as his people admitted, a poet as his people admitted but this man baught something which is not from this world as the people admitted.


i dont know how much credit you give to history, or to literature, but i do know that that this man gave the best of everything, history/literature and science (if you assume good health to be a huge part of science as i do, because Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam taught us how to keep ourselves clean and pure to the extent where diseases are easily avoided).



I ask you, after understanding and witnessing all this, how can i deny the day of judgement? My friend it is not a sidestep, it is a strong belief through experience...
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czgibson
09-06-2007, 03:18 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
Yes, this is exactly what im saying. I can actually come to terms with Allahs justice but thats only because i really believe he exists, and with that belief tags along the belief of the afterlife.
The key word in my post was 'assume'. You're making assumptions which have no basis in reality.

You see you might find it barbaric that God takes away a young child but given the circumstances of that young child, if we knew whats in the childs heart etc maybe we wouldnt hold the same opinion. Allah knows whats in everyones hearts and does not overburden anyone.
Clutching at straws. The simple fact is that the existence of evils both natural and human is totally incompatible with what religious people tell us about god. They say god is both able and willing to prevent evil - why then does he not do so?

Its all logical, There must be an initiator to everything
That seems simple enough.

and for there to be an initiator there must be someone without a beginning,
A direct contradiction of what you just said.
that someone must be extremely intelligent (obviously)
I don't see why that would necessarily follow. Would some hypothetical entity without a beginning definitely have to be intelligent?
and in his justice must work in mysterious ways.
The universe is mysterious. Postulating the existence of a being which serves as a catch-all solution to everything we don't know does nothing to reduce this mystery. The scientific method remains the best way humanity has found for discovering more about the nature of reality.

Now if you want to think that we only came about for 60-70 years of toiling in hardship then thats up to you,
Does life equal hardship?

Not believing in an afterlife is not really a matter of choice, as far as I'm concerned. It just seems obvious to me that we don't survive bodily death, just as I suppose it seems obvious to you that we do.

i believe in the prophets sent down and the books revealed which say that indeed this life is a mere test, and the rewards will be given out afterwards.
You're perfectly entitled to do so. If it's a belief that gives you hope or comfort or whatever, good.

I agree with agnostics that nothing about god can be proved (or known). In fact, I think it is theoretically possible to prove agnosticism, whereas it isn't possible to prove atheism. Atheism is simply a belief.

You made me think about this, and do you know what i thought? I think if i was in your position then i probably would have come to the same conclusion as you have. But i am not in your position, i have grown up reading about islam, researching on the life of Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam and it is impossible for me to conclude otherwise then Allah does indeed exist and will take into account all sins and injustice.
If the simple act of reading about Islam automatically led to acceptance, then everyone would be a Muslim.

i dont know how much credit you give to history, or to literature, but i do know that that this man gave the best of everything, history/literature and science (if you assume good health to be a huge part of science as i do, because Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam taught us how to keep ourselves clean and pure to the extent where diseases are easily avoided).
An interesting point of view. Muhammad (pbuh) was certainly a remarkable man. No other religious leader reached their 'promised land' in their own lifetime, and that's undeniably amazing.

Did he give us the best of history, literature and science? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'the best of history', but the other two we would obviously disagree on. As for literature, Allah is credited with the composition of the Qur'an, surely? Muhammad's (pbuh) teachings on health matters are certainly commendable, but surely do not qualify him as being the greatest scientist of all time.

Peace
Reply

sevgi
09-09-2007, 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


The key word in my post was 'assume'. You're making assumptions which have no basis in reality.

you assume that he assumes that God is not just...

thats why its in ur post and not his.

i dnt think he assumes Allah's just nature...he believe in it sincerely...all muslims do...if they dont, they arent sincere muslims.
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barney
09-09-2007, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
You made me think about this, and do you know what i thought? I think if i was in your position then i probably would have come to the same conclusion as you have. ]
So using your own judgement, you would agree, but since you have been told something else, you discard it?
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Ebtisweetsam
09-09-2007, 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by barney
So using your own judgement, you would agree, but since you have been told something else, you discard it?
I cannot answer for the bro, but speaking of myself, when u are brought up being taught something, as long as it is logical, there is no reason to go against the belief...... except if someone can prove to you otherwise. :happy:
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barney
09-10-2007, 07:17 AM
Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam
I cannot answer for the bro, but speaking of myself, when u are brought up being taught something, as long as it is logical, there is no reason to go against the belief...... except if someone can prove to you otherwise. :happy:
With logical being the key word.
:)
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Ebtisweetsam
09-10-2007, 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by barney
With logical being the key word.
:)
What are you implying? I did say as long as it was logical, i can accpet it, therefore, as i AM accepting it, it IS logical ( to me of course).
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-10-2007, 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by barney
So using your own judgement, you would agree, but since you have been told something else, you discard it?
lol see this is what happens when you ignore the whole post and take one piece out of context making it appear to be something which it simply isnt.


No barney, its not because ive been "told" something else. Its because i've had the good fortune of experiencing the values and bliss of islam and grew up understanding how its teachings prevent many hardships for all people. Its something called "tarbiyyah" which loosely translated is the upbringing of children etc, their moulding of life if you will.

So what i was saying is, if i had no islamic influence from a young age and wasnt taught anything about life then perhaps gibsons statement would have held some value, but due to research and experience (key here is experience) i cannot deny what i hold to be the truth.
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czgibson
09-10-2007, 12:28 PM
Greetings I. A. H.,
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
So what i was saying is, if i had no islamic influence from a young age and wasnt taught anything about life then perhaps gibsons statement would have held some value, but due to research and experience (key here is experience) i cannot deny what i hold to be the truth.
I was raised as a Catholic, and Catholics have very similar beliefs about the afterlife as Muslims. So you and I were both taught that there is an afterlife, and one of us believed it and one of us didn't. Therefore, the value of my statement cannot be discounted for the reasons you've given.

Your claim about experience is an interesting one. What experience do you have of the afterlife?

Peace
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-10-2007, 12:32 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings I. A. H.,

Your claim about experience is an interesting one. What experience do you have of the afterlife?

Peace
the experience that Allahs been there for us, supporting us through wisdom/people and other mediums. I believe everytime something good happens its from Allah, and the amount of times my hearts cried out yet my lips didnt move yet Allah knew, and answered is amazing....
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czgibson
09-10-2007, 12:45 PM
Greetings I. A. H.,
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
the experience that Allahs been there for us, supporting us through wisdom/people and other mediums. I believe everytime something good happens its from Allah, and the amount of times my hearts cried out yet my lips didnt move yet Allah knew, and answered is amazing....
Thanks for your answer, but I was asking about the afterlife. Perhaps what you've said here does relate to the afterlife and I've misunderstood - could you explain a little more?

Peace
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-10-2007, 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings I. A. H.,


Thanks for your answer, but I was asking about the afterlife. Perhaps what you've said here does relate to the afterlife and I've misunderstood - could you explain a little more?

Peace
in every hardship ive turned to Allah, the same God who has sent the messenger, the same messenger who has informed us of the hereafter. I find comfort in the hopes for jannah, and find strength in the fear of jahannam (hell).


If i believe this God can give us life once (which is evidence from our existence) why should i believe that he can give us life again? :)
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