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snakelegs
08-13-2007, 02:35 AM
i have some questions, because i find this confusing.
muslims are supposed to learn - in fact, spend a lifetime learning. they are not supposed to blindly follow. their most important relationship is between themself and god. which is why there is equality among muslims and no "priesthood" or central authority figure - no middleman required.
so, on the one hand, i get the impression that a muslim is not supposed to let others do his thinking for him but (if at all possible) do his own research and weigh things for himself and to question. because, otherwise - if he is just going to accept what people claim to be the majority view - he doesn't really have to study - he can just pick a scholar or a school of thought, and read the rulings and automatically accept them.
i don't think this is islam's view of "knowledge" - am i wrong?
i want to be very clear that i am not speaking of some muslim who finds a religious requirement to be too much trouble and is seeking an easy way out, but a muslim who submits to god only and is motivated only by the desire to be a better muslim.
so here are my questions:
are islamic rulings always based on what the majority of scholars rule on a given subject? sometimes when someone raises the issue that there is not only one scholarly view on something but there are dissenting views - also by respected scholars - he is immediately put down and told, "well the majority of scholars say such and such."
is there no room for dissent within islam? are scholars who take a different position just to be dismissed?
how does anyone know that "the majority" is indeed the majority of all islamic scholars? who determines this?
are scholars who hold minority positions to be simply ignored on all issues?
is islam supposed to take a unanimous stance on every subject?
this is what i find confusing - because islam's respect for knowledge is one of the things i admire about islam.
if a sincere muslim (whose intent is not to find a clever way to avoid something required from god), after much research on his own, and reaches a conclusion that the majority are wrong on a given subject, is it permissible for him to follow the minority?
thanks in advance.
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Umm Yoosuf
08-13-2007, 06:32 PM
Hi Snakelegs

I was listening to a tape on Q & A with Shaykh Al-Albanai (May Allah have mercy on him) he said:

There is nothing in the shari’a which says we have to follow the majority. In fact, if you look at Allah and His Messenger’s saying they condemn the majority.

Allah says:
Indeed majority of mankind do not know.

The Messenger of Allah says:
Indeed, the people of the Book before you split-up into seventy-two sects. And this nation will split-up into seventy-three sects, seventy two are in the Fire and one is in Paradise.

We do not follow the majority’s opinion if there is another opinion with sound, clear and strong evidence. If the majority opinions contradicts the minority opinions we do not follow, we follow the evidence not the majority
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^..sTr!vEr..^
08-13-2007, 06:44 PM
Im stunned at snakeleg's Qs and some of his ideas!!! amazzingg!!!
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NoName55
08-14-2007, 10:14 AM
salaam alaikum

I was asked to post an opinion here but I can't do any better than post# 2 by Sr. Al-Mu'minah

wa salaam

I'll repeat from above post:

"We do not follow the majority’s opinion if there is another opinion (better one) with sound, clear and strong evidence". (we are alway ready to change our opinion in light of better evidence)
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InToTheRain
08-14-2007, 01:21 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah
I was listening to a tape on Q & A with Shaykh Al-Albanai (May Allah have mercy on him) ]
Ameen

Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah
Allah says:
Indeed majority of mankind do not know.
Is Allah(SWT) not talking about mankind in general and not the Ummah? can you confirm the Tafseer please and provide reference to it.

Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah
The Messenger of Allah says:
Indeed, the people of the Book before you split-up into seventy-two sects. And this nation will split-up into seventy-three sects, seventy two are in the Fire and one is in Paradise.

We do not follow the majority’s opinion if there is another opinion with sound, clear and strong evidence. If the majority opinions contradicts the minority opinions we do not follow, we follow the evidence not the majority
To Complete the Hadith you mention:

The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said " There was disagreement amongst Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, there will be disagreement and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into Hell."

When asked which group will be on the right path, the Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam) replied, "The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunna and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims." [Tirmidhi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat]

Of course we do follow the evidence, and the Ulema always have evidence for what they say.
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Thatan Nitaqayn
08-14-2007, 05:05 PM
Hello,


""I am leaving you with two things. As long as you stick to them you shall never be misguided. They are the Qur'an and my Sunnah." (Sahih Muslim 1/397) "

This qote is from the prophet's Last Sermon (Speech/Talk) to the Believers.

Also taken from His (S.A.W.) Sunna (legal ways) by (Sahih Al-Bukhari) The following:

3. The Book of Knowledge
Chptr.6
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Umm Yoosuf
08-14-2007, 05:55 PM
Wa Alaikumussalaam Wa Rahmatulaahi Wa Barakatuh Br WnbSlveOfAllah


Is Allah(SWT) not talking about mankind in general and not the Ummah? can you confirm the Tafseer please and provide reference to it.
Na'am Mankind in general. I think the reason the Ayah was used is to show that majority of mankind/people do not know.

Insha Allah I will try and find the Ayaah.
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Thatan Nitaqayn
08-14-2007, 06:43 PM
Hello,


""I am leaving you with two things. As long as you stick to them you shall never be misguided. They are the Qur'an and my Sunnah." (Sahih Muslim 1/397) " This quote is from the Prophet's Last Sermon (Speech/Talk) to the
Believers,shortly before He (S.A.W.) died.

Also taken from
His (S.A.W.) Sunna (legal ways) by (Sahih Al-Bukhari) The following:

3. The Book of Knowledge

[B]Chptr.7 If Allah (Azza Wa Jal) wants to do good to a person, He makes him comprehend the religion. (The understanding of the Qur'an and the Sunna (legal ways) of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.).

64. Narrted Mu'awiya (RA), in a Khutba (religious talk): I heard Allah's Mesenger(S.A.W.) saying, " If Allah (S.W.T.) wants to do good to a person, He makes him comprehend the religion (the understaning of the Qur'an and the Sunna (legal ways)of the Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.)

I am just a distributor, but the grant is from Allah (S.W.T.) [/B](And remember) that this nation (true Muslims, real followers of Islamic Monotheism) will remain obedient to Allah's (SWT) Orders(i.e. following strickly Allah's Book (the Qur'an) and the Prophet's (S.A.W.) Sunna (legal ways) and they will not be harmed by anyone who will oppose them (going on a different path) till Allah's (S.W.T.)Order (Day of Judgement) is established." (1:71-O.B>)


And lastly..... Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet(S.A.W.) said, “Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded; and gain strength by worshipping in the mornings, the nights.” (See Fath-ul-Bari, Page 102, Vol 1).

{Volume 1, Book 2, Number 38: Sahih Bukari}



So.... if there is slight disagreement among Muslims, Scholars on anything that is unclear, refer it to the Qur'an first, then Sunna for absolute guidance...and leave all to Allah (SWT). Allahu Alam (Allah knows best) . This is better way for Muslim, this is Hikma (wisdom).

Before there were any Scholars, there was Allah's (SWT) Book(His Qur'an) and His Messenger Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.).

Our'an is "Allah's Mercy" for His believers, Alhamdulillah, it was written to be understood by all whom Allah(SWT) calls to Islam, Alhamdulillah.

Most of the Sahabah(PBUT) (first three generations) were illiterate and had to master the language, many were up in years of age but with Allah's Mercy they "heard and obeyed" without question or argument among themselves. The first three generations were THE BEST and role models for all future Muslims to copy, Insha'allah.

Islam (Allah's religion for His true believers) regarding knowledge/ study for Muslims can be found between the pages of these two Books: 1.Allah's Qur'an, 2.Sunna of Allah's Messenger (Prophet) Muhammad (S.A.W.)

Thank you for the opportunity to share my knowledge and hopefully to answer your question or at least give you bettter understanding.
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snakelegs
08-14-2007, 07:32 PM
thanks to all those who have replied.

Al-Mu'minah, your answer makes sense. by evidence i assume you mean that the muslim is studying different scholars opinions and weighing them and on that basis deciding what answer is the most logical and the most loyal to the qur'an and the sunnah. is that right?


NoName,
Largest group from those who are alive at any one time or largest group from those who lived at any time for past 1400 years?
this is an interesting question - what are your thoughts?

wnbslv
Of course we do follow the evidence, and the Ulema always have evidence for what they say
if you are a person who has time to devote to study, do you rely on what the ulema say is evidence, even if you have arrived at a different conclusion?

When it comes to interpreting hadiths, I leave the thinking to the scholars
well, i assume that this is what most people would have to do because few have time or inclination to study deeply themselves. do you follow a madhav?

i mean, do you choose a specific scholar and then follow his rulings on everything?


[Edit]

here is a muslim who does devote himself to study (but is not recognized as "a scholar" specifically - no title). he questions his motives and intents constantly, and he is sure he is only motivated by his desire to submit to god.
after much study, he comes to the conclusion that even though some prominent scholars have ruled such and such, the evidence points to such and thus. what does he do? can there be a conflict between serving the scholars and serving god only? would it ever be possible that he would be committing shirk by following a scholar even though he has concluded that the evidence does not support the scholar's ruling?
obviously, it is only going to be a small minority that have this kind of time or inclination to devote to study.
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snakelegs
08-14-2007, 07:44 PM
there were 2 more replies that came while i was typing my last post.

Thatan Nitaqayn,
thanks for your very clear reply!

Al-Mu'minah,
oooops - i assumed you meant majority of scholars - not just any old people!
no, i was referring to scholars as in "majority opinion."
even i don't follow the majority of mankind on most stuff and i'm not even talking about religion here. :D
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Umm Yoosuf
08-14-2007, 08:21 PM
Snakelegs I was reffering to the majority of scholars, that is what you asked about right?

In Islaam we do not follow the majoritys opinion we follow the evidence and that evidence has to be based on Quran and Sunnah.

Is that clear?
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snakelegs
08-14-2007, 09:10 PM
thanks for clearing that up. that makes a whole lot more sense.
i was confused by
Na'am Mankind in general. I think the reason the Ayah was used is to show that majority of mankind/people do not know.
got it! :)
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Umm Yoosuf
08-14-2007, 09:28 PM
Ah! I see sorry I didn't mean to confuse you. The shaikh was speaking in a general sense at first than he went into the main point. It makes sense when you listen to it, unfortunately the problem is from my part due to my lacking of explaining it well. So my apologies.
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InToTheRain
08-14-2007, 09:36 PM
Peace Snakelegs,
if you are a person who has time to devote to study, do you rely on what the ulema say is evidence, even if you have arrived at a different conclusion?
If I have the time to study and have the intelligence to be qualified at the same level as the scholars I currently follow then ofcourse I will have the right to make my own decision. A mutjahid who is Qualified to make such rulings has 2 rewards if his opinion is right and 1 reward for the effort he put in to deduce a rule even if it is wrong. Therefore regardless of my opinion, once I have reached that level I have every right to make my own ruling and opinion.

[Edit]

ASsalamua laikum wa rahmutullahi wa baraka tuhu sr Mumina,

Jazak Allah Khair for your efforts

Is it possible please to give me Reference to why you say we do not follow the majority of the scholars? can you provide reference to Shekh Albani regarding this if he did say this.
Do you think we have enough knowledge to deduce our own conclusions from reading the Qur'an and hadiths or do you think the Ulema is needed to guide us towards the Qur'an and sunnah as they are qualified to grasp the meaning of the Ayat or Hadith after looking at it's entirety? Is there a scholar that doesn't base their evidence on Qur'an and Sunnah?



Correct me If I am wrong and apologise in advance if I have misundestood something.
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snakelegs
08-14-2007, 09:37 PM
i am excellent in confusing myself! :D
happens all the time.
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Umm Yoosuf
08-14-2007, 10:00 PM
ASsalamua laikum wa rahmutullahi wa baraka tuhu sr Mumina,

Jazak Allah Khair for your efforts
Wa Alaikumussalaam Wa Warhmatulaahi Wa Barakatuh

Is it possible please to give me Reference to why you say we do not follow the majority of the scholars? can you provide reference to Shekh Albani regarding this if he did say this.
I didn't say Akhi, I was simply listening to a Q and a tape by Shaikh Al-Albani and I was sharing with everyone what he (may Allah have mercy on him) said. It’s a bit impossible for me to provide you with reference, forgive me.


Do you think we have enough knowledge to deduce our own conclusions from reading the Qur'an and hadiths or do you think the Ulema is needed to guide us towards the Qur'an and sunnah as they are qualified to grasp the meaning of the Ayat or Hadith after looking at it's entirety? Is there a scholar that doesn't base their evidence on Qur'an and Sunnah?

Correct me If I am wrong and apologise in advance if I have misundestood something.
Of course Akhi the 'ulimah deduce the rulings and conculsion for us, our knowledge compared to them is nothing. Here we are not talking about the 'Ulimah not using evidence from Qur'an and Sunnah, we are simply saying take the strongest evidence.
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snakelegs
08-14-2007, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by WnbSlveOfAllah
Peace Snakelegs,


If I have the time to study and have the intelligence to be qualified at the same level as the scholars I currently follow then ofcourse I will have the right to make my own decision. A mutjahid who is Qualified to make such rulings has 2 rewards if his opinion is right and 1 reward for the effort he put in to deduce a rule even if it is wrong. Therefore regardless of my opinion, once I have reached that level I have every right to make my own ruling and opinion.

[Edit]

ASsalamua laikum wa rahmutullahi wa baraka tuhu sr Mumina,

Jazak Allah Khair for your efforts

Is it possible please to give me Reference to why you say we do not follow the majority of the scholars? can you provide reference to Shekh Albani regarding this if he did say this.
Do you think we have enough knowledge to deduce our own conclusions from reading the Qur'an and hadiths or do you think the Ulema is needed to guide us towards the Qur'an and sunnah as they are qualified to grasp the meaning of the Ayat or Hadith after looking at it's entirety? Is there a scholar that doesn't base their evidence on Qur'an and Sunnah?



Correct me If I am wrong and apologise in advance if I have misundestood something.
the links don't work for me, but i admit i am looking for some fairly clear and simple answers - not to read a book or listen to a lot of lectures.
this may be my mistake - i am looking for a fairly concise answer to some very complex questions?
what you have said above makes sense if a person has little time. but is he just to read what so and so say or is he supposed to think about it, possibly even question it and see how it relates to other things he has read?
at some point, isn't he responsible for himself and his actions? or is he just to give that responsibility to someone else? (again,for this purpose, we must assume that he is capable.)
my basic question could be summed up this way:
in islam, is a person supposed to question or just follow? (always being clear about his intent). what is his responsibility before his creator?
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InToTheRain
08-14-2007, 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah
Wa Alaikumussalaam Wa Warhmatulaahi Wa Barakatuh



I didn't say Akhi, I was simply listening to a Q and a tape by Shaikh Al-Albani and I was sharing with everyone what he (may Allah have mercy on him) said. It’s a bit impossible for me to provide you with reference, forgive me.




Of course Akhi the 'ulimah deduce the rulings and conculsion for us, our knowledge compared to us is nothing. Here we are not talking about the 'Ulimah not using evidence from Qur'an and Sunnah, we are simply saying take the strongest evidence.
I think you mean "Them" ukhti LOL.

Insha'allah can provide the link to the Q & A tape, I would like to study it myself as I have much to learn. I agree that we should take the strongest opinion.
When you say we do not follow the Majority of scholars but we follow the evidence provided in Qur'an and Sunnah it implies that the majority of the scholars is not using the the Qur'an and Sunnah. This is why I put forward the questions I did. And I have reasons to disagree because the Majority is upon Qur'an and sunnah.

Wa alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.
May Allah(SWT) guide upon the Seeratul Mustaqeem.


Originally Posted by snakelegs
this may be my mistake - i am looking for a fairly concise answer to some very complex questions??
I believe so LOL :D

Originally Posted by snakelegs
what you have said above makes sense if a person has little time. but is he just to read what so and so say or is he supposed to think about it, possibly even question it and see how it relates to other things he has read?
at some point, isn't he responsible for himself and his actions? or is he just to give that responsibility to someone else? (again,for this purpose, we must assume that he is capable.)
my basic question could be summed up this way:
in islam, is a person supposed to question or just follow? (always being clear about his intent). what is his responsibility before his creator?
You are supposed to question to a limit. For example once you verified and confirmed that a doctor specialises in a certain field you who is unqualified and uneducated will accept his opinion and prescriptions. Even if he explained it to you, due to you lack of understanding of his fields entirety, you will not understand why he has reached the conclusion he has.
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snakelegs
08-14-2007, 10:50 PM
late last night i began to read ullama iqbal and i think i will have more
questions. i don't know if any here are familiar with his thought....
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snakelegs
08-15-2007, 03:19 AM
Last edited by Al-Mu'minah : 5 Hours Ago at 02:50 PM. Reason: Please do not start up a madhab discussion
may i ask why we can't discuss this?
i promise in advance that i will not argue, as i didn't start this thread to argue, but to learn.
but curiousity is getting the better of me.
thanks.
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Umm Yoosuf
08-15-2007, 07:08 AM
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatulaah WnbSlveOfAllah

I think you mean "Them" ukhti LOL.

Insha'allah can provide the link to the Q & A tape, I would like to study it myself as I have much to learn. I agree that we should take the strongest opinion.
When you say we do not follow the Majority of scholars but we follow the evidence provided in Qur'an and Sunnah it implies that the majority of the scholars is not using the the Qur'an and Sunnah. This is why I put forward the questions I did. And I have reasons to disagree because the Majority is upon Qur'an and sunnah.

Wa alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.
May Allah(SWT) guide upon the Seeratul Mustaqeem.
Jazakallahu Khayr for the correction. In no way was I implying the Majority does not follow Qur'an and Sunnah subhan Allah, I am sorry if it seemed that way. I was talking about following the strongest evidence.

Sadly, I don't have a link to the Q & A tape. I didn't listen to it online.

Hi Snakelegs

I know you mean well however, we’ve had exhausting discussions on madhabs before on the forum I am sure you can remember and they didn’t go down to well, so it is best to avoid these discussions.

If you want I can PM you some stuff.

may i ask why we can't discuss this?
i promise in advance that i will not argue, as i didn't start this thread to argue, but to learn.
but curiousity is getting the better of me.
thanks.
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InToTheRain
08-15-2007, 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatulaah WnbSlveOfAllah



Jazakallahu Khayr for the correction. In no way was I implying the Majority does not follow Qur'an and Sunnah subhan Allah, I am sorry if it seemed that way. I was talking about following the strongest evidence.

Sadly, I don't have a link to the Q & A tape. I didn't listen to it online.
Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

Shukran for clearing the misunderstanding up, if you do come accross the Q & A then do let me know anytime Insh'allah.


If you want I can PM you some stuff.
You can PM it too me too if you want insha'allah thus contributing towards a better understanding. I have much to learn.

Jazak Allah khair for your efforts ukhti.

Some thing that should be noted is the hadith:

According to a hadith in Sahih Muslim (Book 30, Number 6159):

Narrated Aisha: A person asked Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) as to who amongst the people were the best. He said: Of the generation to which I belong, then of the second generation (generation adjacent to my generation), then of the third generation (generation adjacent to the second generation).

Therefore the best have passed us already and we should refer to those before us as the Sahabas, the Tabi'ins and the Tabi-Tabi'ins.

and when one compared a Sahabah about whom there was some contreversy to a tabi'in who had great reputations:
Hadrat 'Abdullah ibn Mubarak, one of the prominent among the Taba' at-Tabiin, said, 'The dust that entered the nose of Hadrat Muawiya's (radi-Allahu ta'ala 'anh) horse while he was riding beside Rasulullah was more beneficial than Uwais al-Qarani and 'Umar ibn 'Abd al-'Aziz.'

Therefore the best have past before us, and all we can do is hold on to what they held onto. We rely on the Ulema to preserve it for us, and we then rely on them to break it down for us due to our lack of knowledge.
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Umm Yoosuf
08-15-2007, 03:51 PM
Wa Alaikumussalaam Wa Rahmatulaahi Wa Barakatuh

if you do come accross the Q & A then do let me know anytime Insh'allah.
Insha Allah.

Therefore the best have past before us, and all we can do is hold on to what they held onto. We rely on the Ulema to preserve it for us, and we then rely on them to break it down for us due to our lack of knowledge.
Of course Insha Allah.
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snakelegs
08-16-2007, 04:57 AM
thanks for all your comments - does anyone else have an opinion/comments on this subject? would like as to know the thoughts of as many as possible on this subject, which i find very interesting.
i've downloaded the book WnbSlveOfAllah mentioned - haven't had time to read it, but it looks like it may answer some of my questions. hope i can get to it fairly soon. i am sort of overwhelmed with stuff at the moment.
sometimes it is frustrating that there is so little time and so much i want to learn about a lot of different things, but that's life, i guess. we probably all have that problem. what else is new?
p.s. Al-Mu'minah, please don't forget me. :sunny:
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Khaldun
08-17-2007, 01:29 AM
:sl:

We do follow the majority of scholars i.e consensus of scholars. But the question is when?

One has to understand Usul-Fiqh for this, Islams main authority is the Quran however if it is not found in it we turn to the Sunnah of our Prophet in other words the Hadith, if the scholars are still left without an answer they resort to Qiyaas (analogy) and the consensus of the scholars. Due to the general meaning of the Hadith

"Verily Allah will not make my community -- or Muhammad's community -- agree on error, and Allah's hand is with the largest congregation." Tirmidhi said: "And the meaning of "jama`a" according to the people of knowledge is: the people of jurisprudence, learning, and hadith."

"When a matter is not specifically addressed by the Qur’ân or Sunnah, its ruling might be deduced from an explicit ruling on a similar matter by way of analogy. Another ruling might be a matter of juristic consensus. Because of this, there is no circumstance or contingency that cannot be addressed by Islamic law using the principles of Islamic legal theory."[Shaykh`Alî Bâdahdah]

"The consensus of the Ummah on any thing is a valid proof that should be applied, because Allah [may He be Glorified] did not command us to return to His Book except when there is a difference regarding anything. Whatever the Ummah agreed upon should therefore be adopted because the entire Ummah cannot agree on an error or on something that contradicts the rulings of the Book of Allah or the Sunnah of His Messenger (peace be upon him)."[Tafsir Ibn Sa'di p. 699]
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snakelegs
08-17-2007, 03:10 AM
thanks for your reply.
who determines what is the majority? and how does a person find out?

i'm not sure if you've read this whole thread or not - so i wanted to give you a specific example.
sometimes a person here will say on a certain subject: "well, there is difference of opinion among the scholars on this".
and then others will say, "yes, but the majority say...."
how does anyone know or find out if this is so?
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Khaldun
08-17-2007, 01:35 PM
:sl:

The majority of opinion is based upon the views of prominent scholars even in the past big scholars have always known of eachother and usually when difference of opinion is mentioned some of the names of the scholars are mentioned, so its not a case of just brushing things of by saying the majority of scholars etc.
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snakelegs
08-17-2007, 10:55 PM
of course, the scholars know but how is the average muslim seeking guidance supposed to know?
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NoName55
08-17-2007, 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
of course, the scholars know but how is the average muslim seeking guidance supposed to know?
I could have sworn I told you, already, via rep system message after repeated deletions of my messages in this thread (probably to avoid argument with trolls), If not I'll do it again thru PM

wa salaam
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snakelegs
08-17-2007, 11:06 PM
yes, please PM me.
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NoName55
08-18-2007, 11:04 PM
^^ I'll risk it one more time and post here.

here goes:

A lay person follows the madhab of Imam of his Mosque who may or may not be well versed with opinions of scholars of past and present.

wa salam
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snakelegs
08-18-2007, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
^^ I'll risk it one more time and post here.

here goes:

A lay person follows the madhab of Imam of his Mosque who may or may not be well versed with opinions of scholars of past and present.

wa salam
thanks :sunny:
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Malaikah
08-19-2007, 05:11 AM
Hi Snakelegs,

NoName55 summarised it pretty well, I just wanted to elaborate a little bit.

The majority of Muslims are not qualified to be able to tell which opinion is strong than another opinion. It takes years of intensive study under the feet of scholars to be able to tell which opinion is stronger.

For this reason a Muslim should follow a certain school of thought, or a certain scholar. For the purpose of increasing in knowledge the Muslim should find out the reasons for the ruling as well.

Some people say that you should abandon your opinion if a clear hadith comes to you that contradicts your opinion, but that is not totally correct, the person should first go back to the scholar he/she follows and ask him about it. It may be that the hadith was not authentic or that it has a certain interpretation, or that the ruling it contains is abrogated.

Hope that helps!
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snakelegs
08-19-2007, 10:26 AM
thanks malaikah.

i am going to swipe something from another thread because it fits in with this discussion and it expresses something i have thought about - i've made that part in bold type. i'd like to get your responses about this.
to see it in its complete context here is the thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post812322


Originally Posted by believer"

I donot claim to be an islamic scholar.....
I already literally throw my personal library away because I have found the Qur'an. ...

Allah gave humanity the Qur'an for us to think, reflect and be thankful about this life and his creation and provision. now, if you will rely on the islamic scholars interpretation alone without thinking on your part... that is a form of SHIRK. to further explain my point: If anybody who willshow his badge around saying this is true - does that make him credible? So another guy claiming to have the truth - but he is only a deputy - worse - he has no badge - does that mean we cannot take his word?
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Malaikah
08-19-2007, 10:55 AM
Hi snakelegs,

I don't know if it is shirk, but yes we are meant to contemplate the Quran. This does not mean that I have to come up with my own interpretation and rulings based on it, rather it means I should find out the correct interpretation for verses that are not clear, and contemplate the verse based on that correct interpretation.

so for example the verse "Then how many of the blessings of your Lord will you both deny". I can contemplate that verses without needing to ask a scholar what it means because its meaning is obvious. (Well, I would need to ask a scholar what is meant by 'you both'- it means the jinn and mankind). But for the part about denying my Lords favour, I can contemplate that by thinking about all the favours my Lord has bestowed upon me and who ungrateful I have been and so on.
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snakelegs
08-21-2007, 04:13 AM
but - would you agree with believer that you are not supposed to rely on the islamic scholars interpretation alone without thinking on your part?
would like others opinions on this subject too.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
08-21-2007, 04:24 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
but - would you agree with believer that you are not supposed to rely on the islamic scholars interpretation alone without thinking on your part?
would like others opinions on this subject too.
:salamext:

That depends on whether the person is a layman or a person of knowledge. If the person is a layman, we do have to rely on the scholars completely, because we cannot even understand how to apply the evidences. A person of knowledge can, however, analyse the evidences and come to a conclusion.
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snakelegs
08-21-2007, 08:16 AM
what if you think what the scholar says doesn't make sense on a certain ruling - are you allowed to question it and search further? or are you supposed to just accept it?
in practice, do you accept what your imam says is the ruling of the majority of the scholars just because your imam says so or are you encouraged to think and question?
obviously, there are many areas of islam that are basic - but there are areas that are less clear.
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Malaikah
08-21-2007, 10:23 AM
If the scholars ruling didn't make sense, I would look in to what other scholars have said, not come up with my own interpretation.
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NoName55
08-21-2007, 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
what if you think what the scholar says doesn't make sense on a certain ruling - are you allowed to question it and search further? or are you supposed to just accept it?
in practice, do you accept what your imam says is the ruling of the majority of the scholars just because your imam says so or are you encouraged to think and question?
obviously, there are many areas of Islam that are basic - but there are areas that are less clear.
Salaam

I would question his educational background and would ask why he is not making sense, 2ndly If I find more people that he is not making sense to, I would start a petition for his removal from our mosque (if indeed he was part of it).

peace
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
08-22-2007, 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
what if you think what the scholar says doesn't make sense on a certain ruling - are you allowed to question it and search further? or are you supposed to just accept it?
in practice, do you accept what your imam says is the ruling of the majority of the scholars just because your imam says so or are you encouraged to think and question?
obviously, there are many areas of islam that are basic - but there are areas that are less clear.
I don't usually go to my local imam for matters of fiqh. I would go to someone who is actually qualified to issue fataawa.:)
Reply

Abdul Fattah
08-22-2007, 12:51 AM
Here's an interesting copy paste:

Sayings Of The Imaams Regarding Following The Sunnah And Ignoring Their Views Contradictory To It
It would be beneficial if we gave some of these here, for perhaps this will admonish or remind those who follow the opinion of the Imaams - nay, of those far below the Imaams in rank - blindly18, sticking to their madhhabs or views as if these had descended from the heavens! But Allaah, Mighty and Sublime, says:

"Follow (O men!) the revelation given to you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends and protectors, other than Him. Little is it you remember of admonition."19
1) Abu Haneefah (rahimahullaah)
The first of them is Abu Haneefah Nu'maan ibn Thaabit, whose companions have narrated from him various sayings and diverse warnings, all of them leading to one thing: the obligation to accept the Hadeeth, and to give up following the opinions of the imaams which contradict it:

1. "When a hadeeth is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhhab."20

2. "It is not permitted21 for anyone to accept our views if they do not know from where we got them."22

In one narration, "It is prohibited23 for someone who does not know my evidence to give verdicts24 on the basis of my words."

Another narration adds, "... for we are mortals: we say one thing one day, and take it back the next day."

In another narration, "Woe to you, O Ya'qub25! Do not write down everything you hear from me, for it happens that I hold one opinion today and reject it tomorrow, or hold one opinion tomorrow and reject it the day after tomorrow."26

3. "When I say something contradicting the Book of Allaah the Exalted or what is narrated from the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), then ignore my saying."27

2) Maalik ibn Anas (rahimahullaah)
As for Imaam Maalik ibn Anas, he said:

1. "Truly I am only a mortal: I make mistakes (sometimes) and I am correct (sometimes). Therefore, look into my opinions: all that agrees with the Book and the Sunnah, accept it; and all that does not agree with the Book and the Sunnah, ignore it."28

2. "Everyone after the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) will have his sayings accepted and rejected - not so the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam)."29

3. Ibn Wahb said: "I heard Maalik being asked about cleaning between the toes during ablution. He said, 'The people do not have to do that.' I did not approach him until the crowd had lessened, when I said to him, 'We know of a sunnah about that.' He said, 'What is that ?' I said, 'Laith ibn Sa'd, Ibn Lahee'ah and 'Amr ibn al-Haarith narrated to us from Yazeed ibn 'Amr al-Ma'aafiri from Abu 'Abdur-Rahman al-Hubuli from Mustawrid ibn Shaddaad al-Qurashi who said, 'I saw the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) rubbing between his toes with his little finger.' He said, 'This hadeeth is sound; I had not heard of it at all until now.' Afterwards, I heard him being asked about the same thing, on which he ordered cleaning between the toes."30

3) Shaafi'i (rahimahullaah)
As for Imaam Shaafi'i, the quotations from him are most numerous and beautiful31, and his followers were the best in sticking to them:

1. "The sunnahs of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) reach, as well as escape from, every one of us. So whenever I voice my opinion, or formulate a principle, where something contrary to my view exists on the authority of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), then the correct view is what the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) has said, and it is my view."32

2. "The Muslims are unanimously agreed that if a sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is made clear to someone, it is not permitted33 for him to leave it for the saying of anyone else."34

3. "If you find in my writings something different to the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), then speak on the basis of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), and leave what I have said."

In one narration: "... then follow it (the Sunnah), and do not look sideways at anyone else's saying."35

4. "When a hadeeth is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhhab."36

5. "You37 are more knowledgeable about Hadeeth than I, so when a hadeeth is saheeh, inform me of it, whether it is from Kufah, Basrah or Syria, so that I may take the view of the hadeeth, as long as it is saheeh."38

6. "In every issue where the people of narration find a report from the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) to be saheeh which is contrary to what I have said, then I take my saying back, whether during my life or after my death."39

7. "If you see me saying something, and contrary to it is authentically-reported from the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), then know that my intelligence has departed."40

8. "For everything I say, if there is something authentic from the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) contrary to my saying, then the hadeeth of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) comes first, so do not follow my opinion."41

9. "Every statement on the authority of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is also my view, even if you do not hear it from me."42

4) Ahmad ibn Hanbal (rahimahullaah)
Imaam Ahmad was the foremost among the Imaams in collecting the Sunnah and sticking to it, so much so that he even "disliked that a book consisting of deductions and opinions be written."43 Because of this he said:

1. "Do not follow my opinion; neither follow the opinion of Maalik, nor Shaafi'i, nor Awzaa'i, nor Thawri, but take from where they took."44

In one narration: "Do not copy your Deen from anyone of these, but whatever comes from the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and his Companions, take it; next are their Successors, where a man has a choice."

Once he said: "Following45 means that a man follows what comes from the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and his Companions; after the Successors, he has a choice."46

2. "The opinion of Awzaa'i, the opinion of Maalik, the opinion of Abu Haneefah: all of it is opinion, and it is all equal in my eyes. However, the proof is in the narrations (from the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and his Companions)."47

3. "Whoever rejects a statement of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is on the brink of destruction."

These are the clear, lucid sayings of the Imaams (Allaah Exalted be pleased with them) about sticking to the Hadeeth and forbidding the following of their opinion without clearly- visible evidence, such that mere opinion and interpretation is not acceptable.

Hence, whoever adhered to whatever of the Sunnah that was proved authentic, even if it opposed some of the Imaams' sayings, he would not be conflicting with their madhhab, nor straying from their path; rather, such a person would be following all of them and would be grasping the most trustworthy hand-hold, which never breaks. However, this would not be the case with the one who abandoned any of the authentic Sunnah simply because it contradicted their views; nay, such a person would be being disobedient to them and opposing their above mentioned sayings, while Allaah says:

"But no, by Your Lord, they can have no (real) faith, until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction."49.

He also says:

"Then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, lest some trial befall them or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them."50

Haafiz Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali (rahimahullaah) says:

"Therefore it is obligatory on anyone who hears of a command of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) or knows it, to explain it to the Ummah, advise them sincerely, and order them to follow his command, even if it contradicts the opinion of someone great. This is because the authority of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) has the most right to be respected and followed, over and above the opinion of anyone great who has unknowingly contradicted the Messenger's command in any matter. This is why the Companions and those after would refute anyone who contradicted the authentic Sunnah, sometimes being very stern in their refutation51, not out of hatred for that person, for they loved and respected him, but because the Messenger of Allaah was more beloved to them, and his command was superior to the command of any other created being. Hence, when the order of the Messenger and that of someone else conflicted, the order of the Messenger would be more fitting to be enforced and followed. None of this would stop them respecting the person they had opposed because they knew that he would be forgiven52; in fact, the latter would not mind his instruction being opposed when the command of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) was clearly shown to be opposite."53

Indeed, how could they mind that, when they had ordered their followers to do so, as we have seen, and had enjoined on them to abandon any of their views which contradicted the Sunnah. In fact, Imaam Shaafi'i (rahimahullaah) told his companions to attribute the authentic Sunnah to him also, even if he had not adopted it or had adopted something contradictory to it. Hence, when the analyst Ibn Daqeeq al-'Eid (rahimahullaah) collected together, in a bulky volume, the issues in which one or more of the four Imaams' madhhabs had contradicted the authentic hadeeth, he wrote at the beginning of it, "It is prohibited to attribute these answers to the Mujtahid Imaams, and obligatory on the jurists who follow their opinions to know of these so that they do not quote them regarding these and thus lie against them."54

The Imaams' Followers Leaving their Views if these Contradicted the Sunnah
Due to all that we have mentioned, the disciples of the Imaams, a number of people from those of old, and a few from those of later time55, would not accept all of their Imaam's views; they actually ignored many when they found them to be clearly against the Sunnah. Even the two Imaams, Muhammad ibn al-Hasan and Abu Yoosuf (rahimahullaah) differed from their shaikh Abu Haneefah "in about a third of the Madhhab"56, as the books of masaa'il prove. Similarly is said about Imaam al- Muzani57 and other followers of Shaafi'i and other Imaams; were we to start giving examples, the discussion would become exceedingly, long, and we would digress from what we set out to do in this Introduction, so we shall limit ourselves to two instances:

1) Imaam Muhammad says in his Muwatta'58(p. 158), "As for Abu Haneefah, he did not regard there being a prayer to ask for rain, but we hold that the imaam prays two rak'ahs and then supplicates and holds out his wrapping garment ..."

2) We have 'Isaam ibn Yoosuf al-Balkhi, one of the companions of Imaam Muhammad59 and a servant of Imaam Abu Yoosuf60, who "would give verdicts contrary to Imaam Abu Haneefah because he did not know the latter's evidence, and other evidence would present itself to him, so he would give verdicts using that."61 Hence, "he would raise his hands on bowing (in prayer) and on rising from it"62, as is the mutawaatir sunnah of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam); the fact that his three Imaams (i.e. Abu Haneefah, Abu Yoosuf and Muhammad) said otherwise did not prevent him from practising this sunnah. This is the approach which every Muslim is obliged to have, as we have already seen from the testimony of the Four Imaams, and others.

To sum up: I sincerely hope that no follower of an Imaam will race to condemn the principles of this book and abandon benefiting from the sunnahs of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) which it contains, with the argument that they are contrary to his Madhhab. I hope that such a person will instead consider what we have given of the exhortations of the Imaams towards the obligation to act on the Sunnah and ignore their sayings contradictory to it. I hope also that he will realise that to condemn the attitude of this book is to condemn whichever Imaam he is following, for we have taken these principles from those Imaams, as we have explained. Therefore, whoever refuses to be guided by them on this path is in great danger, for such refusal necessitates turning away from the Sunnah, the Sunnah to which we have been ordered to refer in cases of difference of opinion and on which we have been commanded to depend.

I ask Allaah to make us among those about whom He says,

"The answer of the believers, when summoned to Allaah and His Messenger, in order that he may judge betweeen them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey" - it is such as these that will attain Success. It is those who obey Allaah and His Messenger, and fear Allaah, and keep their duty to Him, who will triumph."63

[18]This is the sort of taqleed (blind following ) which Imaam Tahaawi was referring to when he said, "Only someone with party-spirit or a fool blindly follows opinion" - quoted by Ibn 'Aabideen in Rasm al-Mufti (vol. 1, p. 32 from the Compilation of his Essays).

[19]al-A'raaf, 7:3

[20]Ibn 'Aabideen in al-Haashiyah (1/63), and in his essay Rasm al-Mufti (1/4 from the Compilation of the Essays of Ibn 'Aabideen), Shaikh Saalih al-Fulaani in Eeqaaz al-Himam (p. 62) & others. Ibn 'Aabideen quoted from Sharh al-Hidaayah by Ibn al-Shahnah al-Kabeer, the teacher of Ibn al-Humaam, as follows:

"When a hadeeth contrary to the Madhhab is found to be saheeh, one should act on the hadeeth, and make that his madhhab. Acting on the hadeeth will not invalidate the follower's being a Hanafi, for it is authentically reported that Abu Haneefah said, 'When a hadeeth is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhhab', and this has been related by Imaam Ibn 'Abdul Barr from Abu Haneefah and from other imaams."

This is part of the completeness of the knowledge and piety of the Imaams, for they indicated by saying this that they were not versed in the whole of the Sunnah, and Imaam Shaafi'i has elucidated this thoroughly (see later). It would happen that they would contradict a sunnah because they were unaware of it, so they commanded us to stick to the Sunnah and regard it as part of their Madhhab. May Allaah shower His mercy on them all.

[21]Ar.: halaal

[22]Ibn 'Abdul Barr in Al-Intiqaa' fi Fadaa'il ath-Thalaathah al- A'immah al-Fuqahaa' (p. 145), Ibn al-Qayyim in I'laam al- Mooqi'een (2/309), Ibn 'Aabideen in his Footnotes on Al-Bahr ar-Raa'iq (6/293) and in Rasm al-Mufti (pp. 29,32) & Sha'raani in Al-Meezaan (1/55) with the second narration. The last narration was collected by 'Abbaas ad-Dawri in At- Taareekh by Ibn Ma'een (6/77/1) with a saheeh sanad on the authority of Zafar, the student of Imaam Abu Haneefah. Similar narrations exist on the authority of Abu Haneefah's companions Zafar, Abu Yoosuf and 'Aafiyah ibn Yazeed; cf. Eeqaaz (p. 52). Ibn al-Qayyim firmly certified its authenticity on the authority of Abu Yoosuf in I'laam al-Mooqi'een (2/344). The addition to the second narration is referenced by the editor of Eeqaaz (p. 65) to Ibn 'Abdul Barr, Ibn al-Qayyim and others.

If this is what they say of someone who does not know their evidence, what would be their response to one who knows that the evidence contradicts their saying, but still gives verdicts opposed to the evidence?! Therefore, reflect on this saying, for it alone is enough to smash blind following of opinion; that is why one of the muqallid shaikhs, when I criticised his giving a verdict using Abu Haneefah's words without knowing the evidence, refused to believe that it was a saying of Abu Haneefah!

[23]Ar.: haraam

[24]Ar.: fatwaa

[25]i.e. Imaam Abu Haneefah's illustrious student, Abu Yoosuf (rahimahullaah).

[26]This was because the Imaam would often base his view on Qiyaas (Analogy), after which a more potent analogy would occur to him, or a hadeeth of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) would reach him, so he would accept that and ignore his previous view. Sha'raani's words in Al-Meezaan (1/62) are summarised as:

"Our belief, as well as that of every researcher into Imaam Abu Haneefah (radi Allaahu 'anhu), is that, had he lived until the recording of the Sharee'ah, and the journeys of the Preservers of Hadeeth to the various cities and frontiers in order to collect and acquire it, he would have accepted it and ignored all the analogies he had employed. The amount of qiyaas in his Madhhab would have been just as little as that in other Madhhabs, but since the evidences of the Sharee'ah had been scattered with the Successors and their successors, and had not been collected in his lifetime, it was necessary that there be a lot of qiyaas in his Madhhab compared to that of other imaams. The later scholars then made their journeys to find and collect ahaadeeth from the various cities and towns and wrote them down; hence, some ahaadeeth of the Sharee'ah explained others. This is the reason behind the large amount of qiyaas in his Madhhab, whereas there was little of it in other Madhhabs."

Abul-Hasanaat Al-Lucknowi quoted his words in full in An- Naafi' al-Kabeer (p. 135), endorsing and expanding on it in his footnotes, so whoever wishes to consult it should do so there.

Since this is the justification for why Abu Haneefah has sometimes unintentionally contradicted the authentic ahaadeeth - and it is a perfectly acceptable reason, for Allaah does not burden a soul with more than it can bear - it is not permissible to insult him for it, as some ignorant people have done. In fact, it is obligatory to respect him, for he is one of the imaams of the Muslims through whom this Deen has been preserved and handed down to us, in all its branches; also, for he is rewarded under any circumstance: whether he is correct or wrong. Nor is it permissible for his devotees to continue sticking to those of his statements which contradict the authentic ahaadeeth, for those statements are effectively not part of his Madhhab, as the above sayings show. Hence, these are two extremes, and the truth lies in between. "Our Lord! Forgive us, and our brethren who came before us into the Faith; and leave not, in our hearts, any rancour against those who have believed. Our Lord! You are indeed Full of Kindness, Most Merciful." (Al-Hashr 59:10)

[27]Al-Fulaani in Eeqaaz al-Himam (p. 50), tracing it to Imaam Muhammad and then saying, "This does not apply to the mujtahid, for he is not bound to their views anyway, but it applies to the muqallid."

Sha'raani expanded on that in Al-Meezaan (1/26):

"If it is said: 'What should I do with the ahaadeeth which my Imaam did not use, and which were found to be authentic after his death?' The answer which is fitting for you is: 'That you act on them, for had your Imaam come across them and found them to be authentic, he would have instructed you to act on them, because all the Imaams were captives in the hand of the Sharee'ah.' He who does so will have gathered all the good with both his hands, but he who says, 'I will not act according to a hadeeth unless my Imaam did so', he will miss a great amount of benefit, as is the case with many followers of the Imaams of the Madhhabs. It would be better for them to act on every hadeeth found to be authentic after the Imaam's time, hence implementing the will of the Imaams; for it is our firm belief about the Imaams that had they lived longer and come to know of those ahaadeeth which were found authentic after their time, they would have definitely accepted and acted according to them, ignoring any analogies they may have previously made, and any views they may have previously held."

[28]Ibn 'Abdul Barr in Jaami' Bayaan al-'Ilm (2/32), Ibn Hazm, quoting from the former in Usool al-Ahkaam (6/149), & similarly Al-Fulaani (p. 72)

[29]This is well known among the later scholars to be a saying of Maalik. Ibn 'Abdul Haadi declared it saheeh in Irshaad as- Saalik (227/1); Ibn 'Abdul Barr in Jaami' Bayaan al-'Ilm (2/91) & Ibn Hazm in Usool al-Ahkaam (6/145, 179) had narrated it as a saying of Al-Hakam ibn 'Utaibah and Mujaahid; Taqi ad- Deen as-Subki gave it, delighted with its beauty, in al- Fataawaa (1/148) as a saying of Ibn 'Abbaas, and then said: "These words were originally those of Ibn 'Abbaas and Mujaahid, from whom Maalik (radi Allaahu 'anhu) took them, and he became famous for them." It seems that Imaam Ahmad then took this saying from them, as Abu Daawood has said in Masaa'il of Imaam Ahmad (p. 276): "I heard Ahmad say, 'Everyone is accepted and rejected in his opinions, with the exception of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam)'."

[30]From the Introduction to Al-Jarh wat-Ta'deel of Ibn Abi Haatim, pp. 31-2.

[31]Ibn Hazm says in Usool al-Ahkaam (6/118):

"Indeed, all the fuqahaa' whose opinions are followed were opposed to taqleed, and they forbade their companions from following their opinion blindly. The sternest among them in this regard was Shaafi'i (rahimahullaah), for he repeatedly emphasised, more than anyone else, following the authentic narrations and accepting whatever the proof dictated; he also made himself innocent of being followed totally, and announced this to those around him. May this benefit him in front of Allaah, and may his reward be of the highest, for he was the cause of great good."

[32]Related by Haakim with a continuous sanad up to Shaafi'i, as in Taareekh Dimashq of Ibn 'Asaakir (15/1/3), I'laam al- Mooqi'een (2/363, 364) & Eeqaaz (p. 100).

[33]Ar.: halaal

[34]Ibn al-Qayyim (2/361) & Fulaani (p. 68)

[35]Harawi in Dhamm al-Kalaam (3/47/1), Khateeb in Al-Ihtijaaj bi ash-Shaafi'i (8/2), Ibn 'Asaakir (15/9/10), Nawawi in Al- Majmoo' (1/63), Ibn al-Qayyim (2/361) & Fulaani (p. 100); the second narration is from Hilyah al-Awliyaa' of Abu Nu'aim.

[36]Nawawi in Al-Majmoo' (1/63), Sha'raani (1/57), giving its sources as Haakim and Baihaqi, & Fulaani (p. 107). Sha'raani said, "Ibn Hazm said, 'That is, ... found to be saheeh by him or by any other Imaam'." His saying given next confirms this understanding.

Nawawi says: "Our companions acted according to this in the matter of tathweeb (calling to prayer in addition to the adhaan), the conditions on coming out of ihraam due to illness, and other issues well-known in the books of the Madhhab. Among those of our companions who are reported to have passed judgment on the basis of the hadeeth (i.e. rather than the saying of Shaafi'i) are Abu Ya'qoob al-Buweeti and Abu l-Qaasim ad-Daariki. Of our companions from the muhadditheen, Imaam Abu Bakr Al-Baihaqi and others employed this approach. Many of our earliest companions, if they faced an issue for which there was a hadeeth, and the madhhab of Shaafi'i was contrary to it, would act according to the hadeeth and give verdicts based on it, saying, 'The madhhab of Shaafi'i is whatever agrees with the hadeeth.' Shaikh Abu 'Amr (Ibn as-Salaah) says, 'Whoever among the Shaafi'is found a hadeeth contradicting his Madhhab, he would consider whether he fulfilled the conditions of ijtihaad generally, or in that particular topic or issue, in which case he would be free to act on the hadeeth; if not, but nevertheless he found it hard to contradict the hadeeth after further analysis, he would not be able to find a convincing justification for opposing the hadeeth. Hence, it would be left for him to act according to the hadeeth if an independent imaam other than Shaafi'i had acted on it, and this would be justification for his leaving the Madhhab of his Imaam in that issue.' What he (Abu 'Amr) has said is correct and established. Allaah knows best."

There is another possibility which Ibn as-Salaah forgot to mention: what would one do if he did not find anyone else who acted according to the hadeeth? This has been answered by Taqi ad-Deen as-Subki in his article, The Meaning of Shaafi'i's saying, "When a hadeeth is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhhab" (p. 102, vol. 3): "For me, the best thing is to follow the hadeeth. A person should imagine himself in front of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), just having heard it from him: would there be leeway for him to delay acting on it? No, by Allaah ... and everyone bears a responsibility according to his understanding."

The rest of this discussion is given and analysed in I'laam al- Muwaqqi'een (2/302, 370) and in the book of al-Fulaane, (full title:) Eeqaaz Himam ulu l-Absaar, lil-Iqtidaa' bi Sayyid al- Muhaajireen wal-Ansaar, wa Tahdheeruhum 'an al-Ibtidaa' ash- Shaa'i' fi l-Quraa wal-Amsaar, min Taqleed al-Madhaahib ma'a l- Hamiyyah wal-'Asabiyyah bain al-Fuqahaa' al-A'saar (Awakening the Minds of those who have Perception, towards following the Leader of the Emigrants and Helpers, and Warning them against the Innovation Widespread among Contemporary Jurists in the Towns and Cities, of following Madhhabs with Zeal and Party- Spirit). The latter is a unique book in its field, which every desirer of truth should study with understanding and reflection.

[37]addressing Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (rahimahullaah).

[38]Related by Ibn Abi Haatim in Aadaab ash-Shaafi'i (pp. 94-5), Abu Nu'aim in Hulyah al-Awliyaa' (9/106), al-Khateeb in Al- Ihtijaaj bish-Shaafi'i (8/1), and from him Ibn 'Asaakir (15/9/1), Ibn 'Abdul Barr in al-Intiqaa' (p. 75), Ibn al-Jawzi in Manaaqib al-Imaam Ahmad (p. 499) & Harawi (2/47/2) with three routes from 'Abdullaah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal from his father that Shaafi'i said to him: ...etc; thus, it is authentic on the authority of Shaafi'i. This is why Ibn al- Qayyim attributed it definitely to him in I'laam (2/325), as did Fulaani in Eeqaaz (p. 152) and then said: "Baihaqi said, 'This is why he - i.e. Shaafi'i - used hadeeth so much, because he gathered knowledge from the people of Hijaaz, Syria, Yemen and 'Iraq, and so accepted all that he found to be authentic, without leaning towards or looking at what he had considered out of the Madhhab of the people of his land when the truth was clear to him elsewhere. Some of those before him would limit themselves to what they found in the Madhhab of the people of their land, without attempting to ascertain the authenticity of what opposed it. May Allaah forgive all of us'."

[39]Abu Nu'aim (9/107), Harawi (47/1), Ibn al-Qayyim in I'laam al-Muwaqqi'een (2/363) & Fulaani (p. 104).

[40]Ibn Abi Haatim in al-Aadaab (p. 93), Abul Qaasim Samarqandi in al-Amaali, as in the selection from it by Abu Hafs al- Mu'addab (234/1), Abu Nu'aim (9/106) & Ibn 'Asaakir (15/10/1) with a saheeh sanad.

[41]Ibn Abi Haatim, Abu Nu'aim & Ibn 'Asaakir (15/9/2).

[42]Ibn Abi Haatim (pp. 93-4).

[43]Ibn al-Jawzi in al-Manaaqib (p. 192)

[44]Fulaani (p. 113) & Ibn al-Qayyim in I'laam (2/302).

[45]Ar.: ittibaa'

[46]Abu Daawood in Masaa'il of Imaam Ahmad (pp. 276-7)

[47]Ibn 'Abdul Barr in Jaami' Bayaan al-'Ilm (2/149).

[48]Ibn al-Jawzi (p. 182).

[49]an-Nisaa', 4:65

[50]an-Noor, 24:63

[51]Even against their fathers and learned men, as Tahaawi in Sharh Ma'aani al-Aathaar (1/372) & Abu Ya'laa in his Musnad (3/1317) have related, with an isnaad of trustworthy men, from Saalim ibn 'Abdullaah ibn 'Umar, who said:

"I was sitting with Ibn 'Umar (radi Allaahu 'anhu) in the mosque once, when a man from the people of Syria came to him and asked him about continuing the 'Umrah onto the Hajj (known as Hajj Tamattu'). Ibn 'Umar replied, 'It is a good and beautiful thing.' The man said, 'But your father (i.e. 'Umar ibn al-Khattaab) used to forbid it!' So he said, 'Woe to you! If my father used to forbid something which the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) practised and commanded, would you accept my father's view, or the order of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) ?' He replied, 'The order of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam).' He said, 'So go away from me.' Ahmad (no. 5700) related similarly, as did Tirmidhi (2/82) and declared it saheeh.

Also, Ibn 'Asaakir (7/51/1) related from Ibn Abi Dhi'b, who said:

"Sa'd ibn Ibraaheem (i.e. the son of 'Abdur Rahmaan ibn 'Awf) passed judgment on a man on the basis of the opinion of Rabee'ah ibn Abu 'Abdur Rahmaan, so I informed him of the saying of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) which was contradictory to the judgment. Sa'd said to Rabee'ah, 'We have Ibn Abi Dhi'b, whom I regard to be reliable, narrating from the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) contrary to what I ruled.' Rabee'ah said to him, 'You have made your effort, and your judgment has been passed.' Sa'd said, 'Most amazing! I enforce the decree of Sa'd, and not the decree of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam)! No, I shall withdraw the decree of Sa'd, son of the mother of Sa'd, and enforce the decree of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam).' So Sa'd called for the written decree, tore it up and gave a new verdict."

[52]In fact, he would be rewarded, because of the Prophet's saying (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam): "When a judge passes judgment, if he makes his effort (ijtihaad) and rules correctly, he will have two rewards; if he makes his effort (ijtihaad) and rules wrongly, he will have one reward." (Related by Bukhaari, Muslim & others.)

[53]Quoted in the notes on Eeqaaz al-Himam (p. 93)

[54]Fulaani (p. 99)

[55]cf. al-Waaqi'ah 56:13-14

[56]Ibn 'Aabideen in Haashiyah (1/62), & Lucknowi gave its source in an-Naafi' al-Kabeer (p. 93) as Ghazaali .

[57]He himself says at the beginning of his Concise Shaafi'i Fiqh (printed in the margin of Imaam Shaafi'i's Al-Umm):

"This book is a selection from the knowledge of Muhammad ibn Idrees al-Shaafi'i (rahimahullaah) and from the meanings of his sayings, to aid the understanding of whoever wants it, knowing of his forbidding the following of his, or anyone else's, opinion, so that such a person may carefully look for his Deen in it."

[58]In which he has explained his opposing his Imaam in about twenty masaa'il (nos. 42, 44, 103, 120, 158, 169, 172, 173, 228, 230, 240, 244, 274, 275, 284, 314, 331, 338, 355, 356 - from Ta'leeq al-Mumajjid 'alaa Muwatta' Muhammad (Important Notes on Muhammad's Muwatta'))

[59]Ibn 'Aabideen mentioned him among them in Haashiyah (1/74) & in Rasm al-Mufti (1/17). Qurashi mentioned him in Al- Jawaahir al-Madiyyah fi Tabaqaat al-Hanafiyyah (p. 347) and said, "He was a reliable transmitter of Hadeeth. He and his brother Ibraaheem were the two shaikhs of Balakh of their time."

[60]Al-Fawaa'id al-Bahiyyah fi Taraajum al-Hanafiyyah (p. 116)

[61]Al-Bahr ar-Raa'iq (6/93) & Rasm al-Mufti (1/28).

[62]Al-Fawaa'id ... (p. 116); the author then added a useful note:

"From this can be deduced the falsity of Makhool's narration from Abu Haneefah: 'that he who raises his hands during Prayer, his Prayer is ruined', by which Ameer, the scribe of Itqaani, was deceived, as has been mentioned under his biography. 'Isaam ibn Yoosuf, a companion of Abu Yoosuf, used to raise his hands, so if the above-mentioned narration had any foundation, Abu Yoosuf and 'Isaam would have known about it ... It can also be deduced that if a Hanafi ignored the madhhab of his Imaam in an issue due to the strength of the evidence against it, this would not take him outside the ranks of the Imaam's followers, but this would in fact be proper taqleed in the guise of leaving taqleed; do you not see that 'Isaam ibn Yoosuf left Abu Haneefah's madhhab of not raising the hands, but he is stil counted as a Hanafi?... To Allaah I complain of the ignorance of our time, when they insult anyone who does not follow his Imaam in an issue because of the strength of evidence against it, and expel him from the fold of that Imaam's followers! This is not surprising when those who do this are from the ordinary masses, but it is amazing when it comes from those who imitate men of learning but plod along that path like cattle!"

[63]an-Noor 24:51-52

This is from the book called: "A Description of Prophet's (SAW) Prayer"
By Shaikh Muhammed Naasir-ud-Deen Al-Albaani
It is available on-line at: http://www.qibla.org/pray.htm
Reply

snakelegs
08-22-2007, 08:27 PM
thanks malaikah, noname and al muwahhidah for your replies. abdul fattah, that long copy and paste was helpful.
another question comes to mind.
i know you follow the qur'an and the sunnah. is it permissable to question or doubt a hadith that has been classified as sahih or does the fact that it has been classified as "sahih" put it beyond question?
Reply

NoName55
08-22-2007, 08:48 PM
is it permissable to question or doubt a hadith that has been classified as sahih or does the fact that it has been classified as "sahih" put it beyond question?
for the sake of argument;

Yes
, if one is a hadith scholar and has found some irrefutable new evidence

No, if one is any tom dick harry and their cousin

edit:
wa salam
Reply

snakelegs
08-22-2007, 10:39 PM
how do you judge whether he is really a hadith scholar or a tom, dick or harry posing as hadith scholar?
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
08-22-2007, 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
thanks malaikah, noname and al muwahhidah for your replies. abdul fattah, that long copy and paste was helpful.
another question comes to mind.
i know you follow the qur'an and the sunnah. is it permissable to question or doubt a hadith that has been classified as sahih or does the fact that it has been classified as "sahih" put it beyond question?

Hi

If a hadith is sahih (authentic) than it is sahih you have no reason to question it or reject it :)
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
08-22-2007, 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
how do you judge whether he is really a hadith scholar or a tom, dick or harry posing as hadith scholar?
The muhaditheen are well known to the scholars. These titles are given to them by other scholars who have the knowledge to determine this.
Reply

NoName55
08-22-2007, 11:32 PM
this lecture may be relevent to your quest, Sr.Snakelegs

Hadith Collections and Criticism with Dr. Jonathan brown

wa salam
Reply

Abdul Fattah
08-23-2007, 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
thanks malaikah, noname and al muwahhidah for your replies. abdul fattah, that long copy and paste was helpful.
another question comes to mind.
i know you follow the qur'an and the sunnah. is it permissable to question or doubt a hadith that has been classified as sahih or does the fact that it has been classified as "sahih" put it beyond question?
I'm glad you found it helpfull.
About the sahih, that's a very good question. The study of hadeeth is a historical study, and just like western historicus they have strict criteria on determining what did and didn't happen. Here's a nice link explaining some of them:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...dith/atit.html
Is it possible that some of the hadeeths we see as sahih are false? Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows. It's also an active study with room for improvement. But although it might seems possible; it would be unfair to dismiss sahih hadeeth just because one doesn't like the sound of a specific hadeeth. since there are several indications that these hadeeths are accurate one would need some sort of base to make such claims on.
Reply

snakelegs
08-23-2007, 01:06 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
this lecture may be relevent to your quest, Sr.Snakelegs

Hadith Collections and Criticism with Dr. Jonathan brown

wa salam
thanks. i'll check them out when i get some quiet time. i have read about the science of hadith, but could stand to learn more.
Reply

snakelegs
08-23-2007, 01:07 AM
abdul fattah,
i've used that site quite a bit - but i never saw this particular section. thanks.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
08-23-2007, 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
thanks malaikah, noname and al muwahhidah for your replies. abdul fattah, that long copy and paste was helpful.
another question comes to mind.
i know you follow the qur'an and the sunnah. is it permissable to question or doubt a hadith that has been classified as sahih or does the fact that it has been classified as "sahih" put it beyond question?
You must also remember that people are of different levels of understanding and intelligence. If we were to follow Islam based upon what we felt was right and wrong, and what we felt made sense then everyone would be following their own deen.

Remember that part of a hadeeth being saheeh is that it should not be shaadh, meaning it should not contradict something stronger than it. And sometimes when a hadeeth seems to contradict an ayah, there is actually a way to reconcile between the ayah and hadeeth. The contradiction is only in the mind of the person, yet the people of knowledge know the haqq.

"... it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." [2:216]

And remember, the authentic sunnah is also a a type of wahy, revelation. So we hear and we obey. For Allah Knows best.
Reply

snakelegs
08-23-2007, 05:19 AM
i agree with you - it makes sense. i find that very often i will read through some lengthy thing about islam that goes down this path, and around this corner and over this hill - but in the end, it is just common sense.
still.....i am the type that always questions.
Reply

snakelegs
08-24-2007, 10:25 PM
i've listened to the lectures provided by noname's link. it pretty much confirms what i've read elsewhere about the science of hadith, but it was ok to hear it again.
there is some disagreement as to whether the (sahih) hadith are equal in weight to the qur'an. is this correct?
i am puzzled by some that are harsher than what the qur'an says.
also, why is sahih bukhari given the most importance?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
08-24-2007, 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i've listened to the lectures provided by noname's link. it pretty much confirms what i've read elsewhere about the science of hadith, but it was ok to hear it again.
there is some disagreement as to whether the (sahih) hadith are equal in weight to the qur'an. is this correct?
I thinkthis should answer your question:

What is the status of the Sunnah in Islam?

The scholars have three very similar Opinions.



First opinion states: “ Sunnah is second to the Qur’aan in terms of Legal weight” Meaning when a matter is presented and we have proofs from Qur’aan and the Sunnah we give preference to Qur’aan first and then the Hadeeth. We still take the Hadeeth but after giving preference to Qur’aan.



Second Opinion states: This is the opinion of Majority of the Scholars which is that the “ Qur’aan and Sunnah are equivalent in weight (in legal point of view)” Not from a blessing point of view. Qur’aan is No doubt more blessed than the Sunnah meaning when we open of the Qur’aan we get blessings just for reading it. Qur’aan is the actual speech of Allah. We are talking about the actual legal application of Sunnah.

For example Allah says, “ do not do this” and the Prophet sallahu Alayhi wasalam says “Do not do this”, are these two prohibitions equal in weight? This is what is implied here.

According to Majority of the Scholars they are equal in weight. The proofs for this will be discussed soon. So if the Prophet sallahu Alayhi wasalam says, “this is halal and this is Haram it is just as Allah saying this is Halal and this is Haram” It is equivalent in weight



The Third Opinion is that of some scholars who did not explicitly say this but hint towards it is that the Sunnah is of a stronger authority than the Qur’aan because the Qur’aan is more in need of the Sunnah than the Sunnah in need of the Qur’aan. In other words we cannot understand the Qur’aan with out the Sunnah. For example Allah says in Qur’aan that ‘ a thief male or female cut off his hands’ this is all that is said in Qur’aan. If this were taken literally then the thief regardless of what he stole, be that as trivial as a pen or as expensive as diamonds his hands will be cut off. From where will we cut the hands? When we go to the Sunnah there is a certain minimum amount mentioned, if the thief stole more than this then his hands are cut off. His right hand will be cut from the wrist. We find this information in the Sunnah.

No one actually said that Sunnah is more important than the Qur’aan and the correct opinion is that Qur’aan and Sunnah are equivalent in its legal weight.

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...nah-islam.html

i am puzzled by some that are harsher than what the qur'an says.
also, why is sahih bukhari given the most importance?
The authentic Sunnah is not more harsh than the Qur'an. Because all of this is al-Islam, and Islam does not contradict itself. Could you give an example?

Saheeh Bukhari is the most authentic book of hadeeth collections, so that is why it is given preference/importance.
Reply

NoName55
08-24-2007, 11:11 PM
:sl:

According to Majority of the Scholars they are equal in weight.
Perhaps now, it is about time that someone should comment on;

All authentic (sahih) Hadiths (proven acts, history, life of RasulAllah) versus Authentic Sunnat-e- Mohammadi (Things we have to do versus things RasulAllah did but we are prohibited from doin even though those are recorded as having been done) for example is it Sunnah to drink sitting down or standing up (Prophet did both)?

:w:
Reply

snakelegs
08-25-2007, 12:56 AM
i cannot give you exact source - it's been a good half year since i read the qur'an and as for the exact ahadith, they were things i've read here.
disclaimer: i do not want to open the "apostasy" can of worms yet again - it is the principle that i find hard to understand.
in the qur'an, god clearly says more than once that he will punish the apostate. there is no mention of punishment in this life. wouldn't the qur'an have gone in to that, as it is an important matter?
another thing i question is that some rulings seem to be dependent on time and context. for example, i've read here that the original rulings about women traveling alone stemmed from times when it was much more dangerous, and nowdays, since it is very much safer, not all the same criteria apply.
so also in the case of the apostate - to me it makes sense during the time and place that muslims were at war - this would naturally be seen as treason.
but this ruling doesn't seem to be dependent on context.
again i am not trying to open an argument - just trying to understand the concepts behind the rulings.
al muwahhidah your post cleared up something for me, thanks.
noname, i thought all the hadiths were the prophet's sunnah?
Reply

NoName55
08-25-2007, 01:16 AM
I think I have done that somewhere either on this site or elsewhere, I'll try to find it, If i fail to find it, I'll write another page and send it to you privately to avoid problems with deletions and such like.

The gist and title of that would be; Punishment for treason against state (ruled by Shariah)
Reply

NoName55
08-25-2007, 01:21 AM
i thought all the hadiths were the prophet's sunnah?
how do we know that many prophets had tens of wives? thru hadith? then does that become sunnah for us to follow?

why do we circumcise males? because it is sunnah of Hazrat Abraham

hadith that confirms a command = Sunnah
hadith that relates a story = ? (historic record of an event)

edit: further details and examples will be sent to you by pm when I am able to get someone to type for me or I can copy paste from some other source)
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
08-25-2007, 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
in the qur'an, god clearly says more than once that he will punish the apostate. there is no mention of punishment in this life. wouldn't the qur'an have gone in to that, as it is an important matter?
Not necessarily. There are many important things which are not discussed in the Qur'an, but are explained in the Sunnah. Not all aspects of the Shahaada, Salah, Sawm, Hajj, and Zakah are expalined in the Qur'an*. And these are the pillars of Islam.:) So what can we expect from other than them, such as the punishments for the fornicator/adulterer, thief, apostate etc. Remember there are two types of revelation, so not everything must be revealed in the Qur'an, it may also be revealed through the Sunnah.

another thing i question is that some rulings seem to be dependent on time and context. for example, i've read here that the original rulings about women traveling alone stemmed from times when it was much more dangerous, and nowdays, since it is very much safer, not all the same criteria apply.
so also in the case of the apostate - to me it makes sense during the time and place that muslims were at war - this would naturally be seen as treason.
but this ruling doesn't seem to be dependent on context.
No, that is incorrect. Please read this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...ut-mahram.html

There's nothing from the sources that suggests that killing the apostate is only limited to the time of the Prophet. These things have not been specifically abbrogated in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Unless something has been specificaly stated that it is khaas (specified, i.e. just for him/her, that time etc.) then it is 'aam (unspecificied, for all).

However, as for killing the apostate, that has to be done through the Imaam. It isn't for us to take it upon ourselves.
Reply

snakelegs
08-27-2007, 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
how do we know that many prophets had tens of wives? thru hadith? then does that become sunnah for us to follow?

why do we circumcise males? because it is sunnah of Hazrat Abraham

hadith that confirms a command = Sunnah
hadith that relates a story = ? (historic record of an event)

edit: further details and examples will be sent to you by pm when I am able to get someone to type for me or I can copy paste from some other source)
thanks for the clarification. i'd never thought about that distinction.
btw, i never got your PM.
Reply

snakelegs
08-27-2007, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by Al Muwahhidah
Not necessarily. There are many important things which are not discussed in the Qur'an, but are explained in the Sunnah. Not all aspects of the Shahaada, Salah, Sawm, Hajj, and Zakah are expalined in Islam. And these are the pillars of Islam.:) So what can we expect from other than them, such as the punishments for the fornicator/adulterer, thief, apostate etc. Remember there are two types of revelation, so not everything must be revealed in the Qur'an, it may also be revealed through the Sunnah.

No, that is incorrect. Please read this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...ut-mahram.html

There's nothing from the sources that suggests that killing the apostate is only limited to the time of the Prophet. These things have not been specifically abbrogated in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Unless something has been specificaly stated that it is khaas (specified, i.e. just for him/her, that time etc.) then it is 'aam (unspecificied, for all).

However, as for killing the apostate, that has to be done through the Imaam. It isn't for us to take it upon ourselves.
i realize the importance of hadiths for the reasons you have said - they fill in specifics. but i have trouble with things as important as capital punishment not being in qur'an, where god is clearly saying that he will carry out the punishment.
no, it is not specifically stated that this is limited to a specific time and circumstances. but, obviously not everything in the hadith is for all time, regardless of context?
is the fact that a hadith has been classified as "sahih" put it beyond the realm of being able to question it?
these are, after all, the words of men - even though there is a whole science of classifying them and rules for the "sahih" classification.
when is time and circumstance taken in to account?
as for the woman traveling without mahram -(the questiion re: context)

here is what i read:

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Depending on this general text, some scholars are of the opinion that a woman should not travel by herself. Other scholars stipulate that her travel is permissible in the company of a trustworthy group of men or men and women. The prohibition conveyed by the hadith is justified by fearing that the woman may be exposed to mischief or temptation if she travels alone, bearing in mind that the dangers of travel were numerous in the past. Caliph `Umar ibn al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) allowed the Prophet’s wives (Mothers of the Believers) to travel for Hajj with a group of believers and sent with them `Uthman ibn `Affan and `Abdul-Rahman ibn `Auf.

In the hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to `Adiy ibn Hatim we read: “If you live long, you will see the woman travel from Hirah (a city in Iraq) to circumambulate the Ka`bah fearing none but Allah.” (Reported by al-Bukhari)

This confirms that the cause (of the prohibition) is fear (of insecurity). If security is guaranteed and fear is no more present, a woman may travel, particularly nowadays when travel has become easy, whether by air, train or coach. In all these means of transportation, company is available and security is realized for the Muslim.
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ut-mahram.html

this was the link, but it no longer works - apparently that thread was deleted because it was a repeat of a similar thread.
this indicates that sometimes context is taken in to account. i am curious when is it a consideration and when isn't it and who decides?
Reply

NoName55
08-28-2007, 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah



http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ut-mahram.html

this was the link, but it no longer works - apparently that thread was deleted because it was a repeat of a similar thread.
this indicates that sometimes context is taken in to account. i am curious when is it a consideration and when isn't it and who decides?
try these:

Women Traveling Without a Mahram

What is intended here is that a woman should not travel alone without a mahram. If she does so, i.e. travels without a mahram, she would be disobeying ...

Woman travelling to seek knowledge without a mahram

Depending on this general text, some scholars are of the opinion that a woman should not travel by herself. Other scholars stipulate that her travel is ...

Travelling with Sister and Brother-in-law

... (Jerusalem Mosque), and I heard him also say: A woman should not travel for two days' duration, but only when there is a Mahram with her or her husband. ...

QUIZ: How much SUNNAH do U KNOW?!?!? - Page 39

Narated By Ibn 'Umar : The Prophet said, "A woman should not travel for more than three days except with a Dhi-Mahram (ie a male with whom she cannot marry ...
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
08-28-2007, 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i realize the importance of hadiths for the reasons you have said - they fill in specifics. but i have trouble with things as important as capital punishment not being in qur'an, where god is clearly saying that he will carry out the punishment.
no, it is not specifically stated that this is limited to a specific time and circumstances. but, obviously not everything in the hadith is for all time, regardless of context?
is the fact that a hadith has been classified as "sahih" put it beyond the realm of being able to question it?
these are, after all, the words of men - even though there is a whole science of classifying them and rules for the "sahih" classification.
when is time and circumstance taken in to account?
The authentic ahadeeth are not just the words of men, rather they are the words of the Messenger of Allah. If a hadeeth is authentic, then there is no questioning it. Unless ofcourse you are a scholar and you doubt that it is authentic, based on certain evidences. However, if a hadeeth certainly is authentic, then there is no questioning it. Because it is the words of the one whom Allah sent to convey the message of Islam. Allah says,

Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."


[3:31]

Therefore, Allah's Love is earnt through following the Messenger. But as for you having trouble with the issue of apostacy, then there's not much I can do for you there. The ahadeeth about that are authentic, therefore it is a part of Islam. In fact, the following hadeeth is recorded in Bukhari (3017); "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." The apostate is first asked to repent by a Qadhi in an Islamic country, and if he refuses then he is executed. Maybe this will help clarify:
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=696&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=811&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=20327&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=14231&ln=eng&txt


Just because someone is punished in this world, it does not mean they will not be punished in the Hereafter. An apostate has left the realm of Islam, therefore he/she will inevitably spend enternity in Hell. But we have also been told through the Sunnah that the punishment of the apostate is death in this world. So we hear and we obey, there's simply nothing else to it.

About your question on context. I'm not sure, but I will ask someone more knowledgeable for you inshaAllah.

as for the woman traveling without mahram -(the questiion re: context)

here is what i read:

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah



http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ut-mahram.html

this was the link, but it no longer works - apparently that thread was deleted because it was a repeat of a similar thread.
this indicates that sometimes context is taken in to account. i am curious when is it a consideration and when isn't it and who decides?
The ahadeeth about women taking a mahrem when travelling are not specified to a certain time, therefore they apply at all times. This is the opinion that I follow, and this is what I have read/heard from the majority of scholars and students of knowledge whose books/lectures/fataawa I have come across. The Prophet salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam said, “It is not lawful for a woman that believes in Allaah and the Last Day to travel the distance of a day unless accompanied by a mahram.” And that is what we should follow. The key word here being mahrem. A group of women cannot serve as a mahrem. As shaykh Fawzan states:

Therefore, a woman’s mahram is any male that she is forbidden (to marry) due to a family-tie or some allowable reason. This forbiddance (of marriage) must also be endless, i.e. everlasting.
Also see here. The shaykh further states:

Some people today claim that there is no problem if a woman travels by airplane and her mahram dispatches her in the departure airport while another mahram picks her up at the arrival airport. And the Prophet SalAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said: “It is not lawful for a woman that believes in Allaah and the Last Day to travel the distance of two days unless accompanied by a mahram.” This applies to whether she travels on foot, by car or on a riding beast. The Prophet SalAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam did not specify. However, the cause is there, and it is due to the fitnah that is feared will befall her – even if she is on an airplane. So she is not safe from Fitnah even on board a plane.

Furthermore, let’s suppose for example that the airplane is forced to change destination and so it lands in a different country – who will pick her up in this other country? That is why there must be a mahram present along with the woman. This is such that once a man came to the Prophet SalAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam and said: “O Messenger of Allaah, I have enlisted for such and such battle expedition, but my wife has gone out for Hajj.” The Prophet SalAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam told him: “Go back and make Hajj with your wife.” [6]

The Prophet SalAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam turned this man from battle so that he may accompany his wife on Hajj and serve as a mahram for her. This is proof that having a mahram is a condition for a woman to travel on Hajj or to other places, regardless of whether she is with a group of people or not. This is why the scholars of Fiqh, may Allaah have mercy on them, mentioned that one of the conditions in which Hajj becomes obligatory on a woman is when she has a mahram available to travel with her. So if one is not available for her, she is then not obligated to make Hajj until a mahram does become accessible for her…”
So even though Hajj is one of the pillars of Islam, the woman is not permitted to make Hajj until she has a mahram, and she is excused until she does. See here, here and here. So what about travelling for matters which are not obligatory, or even recommended? Allah knows best. You can also visit the following links about the mahrem issue:

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=316&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=102494&ln=eng
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=22369&ln=eng

Allah knows best. May He forgive me for saying anything incorrect.
Reply

snakelegs
08-28-2007, 01:23 AM
thanks for both of your replies. i haven't checked out the links yet and will do so later, when i can concentrate better. (and am not half asleep).
just wanted to clarify, that both in the case of apostasy and in the case of women travelling without a mahram, i was interested in the principles rather than the specifics.
which were about questioning a sahih hadith and applying the criteria of context in legal rulings in evaluating a hadith and its applicability in our time.
i know the apostasy ruling is based on sahih hadith. as for my other question about questioning hadiths that are classed as sahih, your answer is al muwahhidah is very clear on that one. it's something i've wondered about.
thanks!
Reply

NoName55
08-28-2007, 01:45 AM
something to read by by Brothers. Estes & Zarabozo
Leaving Islam - Apostasy in Islam

and/or watch a video
Apostasy - Dr. Bilal Philips

Media Tags are no longer supported
click here for futher enlightenment
Reply

snakelegs
08-28-2007, 02:47 AM
thanks.
again - it wasn't the apostasy itself that i was concerned about but i will check it out later.
Reply

snakelegs
08-29-2007, 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by Al Muwahhidah
The authentic ahadeeth are not just the words of men, rather they are the words of the Messenger of Allah. If a hadeeth is authentic, then there is no questioning it. Unless ofcourse you are a scholar and you doubt that it is authentic, based on certain evidences. However, if a hadeeth certainly is authentic, then there is no questioning it. Because it is the words of the one whom Allah sent to convey the message of Islam. Allah says,

Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."


[3:31]

Therefore, Allah's Love is earnt through following the Messenger. But as for you having trouble with the issue of apostacy, then there's not much I can do for you there. The ahadeeth about that are authentic, therefore it is a part of Islam. In fact, the following hadeeth is recorded in Bukhari (3017); "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." The apostate is first asked to repent by a Qadhi in an Islamic country, and if he refuses then he is executed. Maybe this will help clarify:
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=696&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=811&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=20327&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=14231&ln=eng&txt


Just because someone is punished in this world, it does not mean they will not be punished in the Hereafter. An apostate has left the realm of Islam, therefore he/she will inevitably spend enternity in Hell. But we have also been told through the Sunnah that the punishment of the apostate is death in this world. So we hear and we obey, there's simply nothing else to it.

About your question on context. I'm not sure, but I will ask someone more knowledgeable for you inshaAllah.



The ahadeeth about women taking a mahrem when travelling are not specified to a certain time, therefore they apply at all times. This is the opinion that I follow, and this is what I have read/heard from the majority of scholars and students of knowledge whose books/lectures/fataawa I have come across. The Prophet salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam said, “It is not lawful for a woman that believes in Allaah and the Last Day to travel the distance of a day unless accompanied by a mahram.” And that is what we should follow. The key word here being mahrem. A group of women cannot serve as a mahrem. As shaykh Fawzan states:



Also see here. The shaykh further states:



So even though Hajj is one of the pillars of Islam, the woman is not permitted to make Hajj until she has a mahram, and she is excused until she does. See here, here and here. So what about travelling for matters which are not obligatory, or even recommended? Allah knows best. You can also visit the following links about the mahrem issue:

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=316&ln=eng&txt
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=102494&ln=eng
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=22369&ln=eng

Allah knows best. May He forgive me for saying anything incorrect.
no, i am not having an issue about apostasy perse, as that has been dealt with many times, and i'm aware of the rulings.
as for the hijaab one, i guess i was mistaken about time and context on this one.
to put my question a little more clearly -
are there times when context (time and circumstances) are taken in to account when ruling on an authentic hadith? or is it only in instances when it is self-explanatory?
i understand what you've said about authentic hadith and i will not argue about it, even though i regard them as what men say the prophet said, even if they have been classified as authenitc. but, after all, it's your religion, so my opinion doesn't really make much difference in the long run. :D
so i understand that you are not to question them if they have been classified as sahih.
Reply

snakelegs
08-29-2007, 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
Leaving Islam - Apostasy in Islam

Apostasy - Dr. Bilal Philips
that particular video arroused my spyware program (trend microvirus) so i didn't watch it. i've never run into that on youtube before.
but i think i understand the apostasy law ok from previous threads and reading.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
08-29-2007, 03:09 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
no, i am not having an issue about apostasy perse, as that has been dealt with many times, and i'm aware of the rulings.
as for the hijaab one, i guess i was mistaken about time and context on this one.
to put my question a little more clearly -
are there times when context (time and circumstances) are taken in to account when ruling on an authentic hadith? or is it only in instances when it is self-explanatory?
i understand what you've said about authentic hadith and i will not argue about it, even though i regard them as what men say the prophet said, even if they have been classified as authenitc. but, after all, it's your religion, so my opinion doesn't really make much difference in the long run. :D
so i understand that you are not to question them if they have been classified as sahih.
I promised that I would ask for you, and this is the response that I got:

Different rulings are different with respect to their amicability to change with changing circumstances. Some – especially those pertaining to matters of worship – are beyond our ability to rationally understand. They are timeless and do not change except where specific textual evidence dictates an exception. For instance, the `Asr prayer is four units. No one can change that on the basis of changing circumstances except where the texts specifically indicate it – like in the case of a traveler.



Other matters are clearly contingent on circumstances. This is the case for many practical matters of the law. In some cases, this contingency is clearly stated in the texts themselves. In others, it is understood from the texts or from other more general texts.

Fatwâ Department Research Committee of IslamToday chaired by Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî
If a hadith is classified as authentic, can we reject just because we don't particularly agree with it? No. Because what we feel is right or wrong does not make a hadeeth inauthentic. If however you have some tangible evidence to prove that it is not the words of the Prophet (salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam), then yes, you have a reason to reject. We don't just reject hadeeths based on our whims and desires. If i said something, and someone then proved it to you (that I said that), should you reject that I said that because you don't agree with the statement? Islam in itself means submission, so the Muslim should submit to the truth whether it be for him or against him.
Reply

snakelegs
08-29-2007, 03:44 AM
Originally Posted by Al Muwahhidah
I promised that I would ask for you, and this is the response that I got:



If a hadith is classified as authentic, can we reject just because we don't particularly agree with it? No. Because what we feel is right or wrong does not make a hadeeth inauthentic. If however you have some tangible evidence to prove that it is not the words of the Prophet (salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam), then yes, you have a reason to reject. We don't just reject hadeeths based on our whims and desires. If i said something, and someone then proved it to you (that I said that), should you reject that I said that because you don't agree with the statement? Islam in itself means submission, so the Muslim should submit to the truth whether it be for him or against him.
thank you for getting the answer!
i assume only a scholar would know when to apply context and when not to. again, i guess it's pretty much common sense.
i understand what you believe about the hadith. of course you cannot pick and choose and follow your whims.
i have no desire to argue.
i was just trying to get a glimpse of islam's views on knowledge and at least at the moment, they have all been answered.
thanks for your trouble. :sunny:
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
08-29-2007, 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
thank you for getting the answer!
i assume only a scholar would know when to apply context and when not to. again, i guess it's pretty much common sense.
i understand what you believe about the hadith. of course you cannot pick and choose and follow your whims.
i have no desire to argue.
Yes, you'd need to be a person of knowledge in order to understand when the context applies, as this is not always clear. I have no desire to argue either (even though I do it alot).

i was just trying to get a glimpse of islam's views on knowledge and at least at the moment, they have all been answered.
thanks for your trouble. :sunny:
It was no trouble at all!
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