Partition memories

[wilberhum]

The 60th anniversary of the partition of India in 1947 and the birth of Pakistan was a momentous event in the region.
Millions of people found themselves on the wrong side of the border and hundreds of thousands lost their lives during the mass migration and communal bloodshed.
Generations of families, whose lives have been shaped by the partition, look back at the traumatic events of 1947 and the impact they had on the following 60 years.

Read lots of sad stories.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6939997.stm

[Woodrow]

It seems that all "designed" countries have had a very rough beginning. I have no idea as to what the alternatives could or should have been.

Hopefully the best choice was made and more lives were saved than would have happened without partition.

[wilberhum]

It seems that all "designed" countries have had a very rough beginning. I have no idea as to what the alternatives could or should have been.

Hopefully the best choice was made and more lives were saved than would have happened without partition.

Do you think partition was a good choice?

I alwas thought it was as good as the creation of Israel.
(Which I concider a horrable decision)

[Woodrow]

Do you think partition was a good choice?

I alwas thought it was as good as the creation of Israel.
(Which I concider a horrable decision)

The bad part of the choice is it was the idea and for the benefit of an uninvolved third party. I believe partition would have eventually taken place, but slower and more peacefully. The instant formation of a country is almost a guarantee for violence.

However, like with the formation of Israel the focus should be on today and not what was or could have been done.

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[wilberhum]

The bad part of the choice is it was the idea and for the benefit of an uninvolved third party. I believe partition would have eventually taken place, but slower and more peacefully. The instant formation of a country is almost a guarantee for violence.

However, like with the formation of Israel the focus should be on today and not what was or could have been done.

An uninvolved third party? Who?
the focus should be on today. Sooooo true. We don't get do-overs.
And we can undo yester year injustice by creating today's injustace.

[Woodrow]

I just found this on Google:

14 August, 1947, saw the birth of the new Islamic Republic of Pakistan. At midnight the next day India won its freedom from colonial rule, ending nearly 350 years of British presence in India. During the struggle for freedom, Gandhi had written an appeal "To Every Briton" to free their possessions in Asia and Africa, especially India (Philips and Wainwright, 567). The British left India divided in two. The two countries were founded on the basis of religion, with Pakistan as an Islamic state and India as a secular one.

Whether the partition of these countries was wise and whether it was done too soon is still under debate. Even the imposition of an official boundary has not stopped conflict between them. Boundary issues, left unresolved by the British, have caused two wars and continuing strife between India and Pakistan.

The partition of India and its freedom from colonial rule set a precedent for nations such as Israel, which demanded a separate homeland because of the irreconcilable differences between the Arabs and the Jews. The British left Israel in May 1948, handing the question of division over to the UN. Un-enforced UN Resolutions to map out boundaries between Israel and Palestine has led to several Arab-Israeli wars and the conflict still continues.

Source: http://www.english.emory.edu/Bahri/Part.html

Ironicaly it seems that set the format for the formation of Israel.

It does give me more understanding as to why the mid-eastern countries hate western intervention. The intentions may have been good, but it seems meddling results in much pain and hostility.

[Amadeus85]

India and Pakistan had similar beginnings, common history, as brittish colony, and now look how differently these states evolved. India has very high economical growth, great growth of modern technologies, so many educated young people. And what about Pakistan? This country, although it is almost entirely muslim , is on the edge of a civil war.

[Woodrow]

An uninvolved third party? Who?
the focus should be on today. Sooooo true. We don't get do-overs.
And we can undo yester year injustice by creating today's injustace.

Poor choice of the word uninvolved. I was trying to get across the idea that the UK and Lord Mountbatten would not have to live in the results of the decision.

I like Gandhi's statement:

"Leave India to God. If that is too much, then leave her to anarchy." --Gandhi, May 1942

[Woodrow]

India and Pakistan had similar beginnings, common history, as brittish colony, and now look how differently these states evolved. India has very high economical growth, great growth of modern technologies, so many educated young people. And what about Pakistan? This country, although it is almost entirely muslim , is on the edge of a civil war.

Perhaps Pakistan has gotten too much Western "Help"

[snakelegs]

indeed there are similarities between pakistan and israel.
but there are also important differences and israel had a lot of advantages that pakistan did not have.
my personal opinion is that partition was a great tragedy. the brits were supposed to work it out in a year and then they decided to dump it and be done in 2 months. no wonder it was such a huge mess.
however, it was done.
from everything i have gleaned so far, pakistan was dealt some pretty harsh blows right from the very beginning. for one thing, they never received their share of the military assets.
there are many reasons pakistan is behind india.

[wilberhum]

there are many reasons pakistan is behind india.

I found this:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle2861707.ece
Thought it was quite interesting.

[wilberhum]

http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/itihas/partition.htm
The British overestimated the popularity of Muslim League that pressed for creation of Pakistan, and didn't understand the fact that there were Muslims living in every village of India, and possibly couldn't be relocated to Pakistan.

In what is termed as the greatest human migration, some 15 million people were displaced from their homes as a result of the partition with Hindus in Pakistan moving to areas in Punjab and other bordering areas. Many Muslims left India to succeed in Pakistan ("Land of the Pure") especially many writers and intellectuals. The partition was marred by large scale violence with death of a million (some estimate it up to 1.5 million) citizens and countless others suffering.

[snakelegs]

I found this:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle2861707.ece
Thought it was quite interesting.

i find india extremely interesting too, but i am a little more familiar with pakistan. keep in mind that i am far from being an expert on the subject and some of what i say could very well be dead wrong. but here is my take anyway, for whatever it is worth. i'm not going to even go into kashmir and bangladesh.
many of pakistan's problems were caused by its own rulers and some very poor choices. but not all of them. some were inherent. for example, the country had virtually no industry at all. as i mentioned before, they never received their share of the military assets.
i think the brits bear the blame for some of them. everything was done in huge haste. the exact borders were not even announced by the brits after independence! and there is much evidence that mountbatten favoured the hindus.
another big problem pakistan has had to deal with (and is still dealing with!) is an identity problem. the country was created because muslims did not think that their interests would be protected in india. the pakistan movement was largely a movement of people who did not live in the land that is now pakistan. the official language is a language that was spoken in states which are now in india.
what does it mean to be a state that came in to existence for the well-being of muslims? is it a state where muslims will be treated equally and have complete freedom to practice their religion? is it a country for muslims or an islamic state? this is a constant area of dispute.
it has had a great deal of tension between the central government and the state government, where often the states felt (and still do) that their resources are mainly going to one province (punjab) and they are not getting their just due in return. the one thing that unites the people is islam. so you can see that islam should be emphasized to keep the people together.
to sum up, all that i have learned and am still learning about pakistan has led me to believe that it is not really a wonder that they are in a mess - it is a wonder that they have managed to survive at all and are doing even as well as they are!
again, keep in mind that my knowledge is limited.
i would like to hear from pakistanis and from indians also on this thread, if it can be done without going to war all over again. :D

[Bittersteel]

this and the Israel-Palestine conflict seem almost same to me.

[snakelegs]

yes, ironic - isn't it?
another irony is that most of the people in the pakistan movement and in the zionist movement, though using religion as their rationale - were secular!

[Joe98]

Partition happenned because the people demanded it!

After the people demanded it the British assisted in drawing the border.

The British did not enforce the partition.
-

[Muezzin]

Partition happenned because the people demanded it!

After the people demanded it the British assisted in drawing the border.

The British did not enforce the partition.
-

Nor did they tell the people on which side of the border the coveted city of Lahore would lie until after the partition, thus avoiding any responsibility for the ensuing violence.

But oh well. It's in the past now and nothing can be done to change it short of the invention of the Flux Capacitor. At least we can learn from history, and see it and the governments and people who are its actors for what they truly are in all their facets, rather than for what they seemed at the time.

Do you think partition was a good choice?

I alwas thought it was as good as the creation of Israel.
(Which I concider a horrable decision)

I can see how you might think that. The worst choice that somebody or other made was the decision to create West Pakistan and East Pakistan (which contained Bangladesh), with India smack bang in the middle. What were they thinking? Then in the 70's it came to a head with the Pakistani-Bangladeshi violence. :(

[ahsan28]

Do you think partition was a good choice?

I alwas thought it was as good as the creation of Israel.
(Which I concider a horrable decision)

It was the best option, if we trace back the pages of history and recall the attitude of by hindus with Muslims, prior to creation of Pakistan. The difference between Pakistan and Israel remains that Israel was forcibly created by the west, whereas Pakistan was created by the locals as a result of their sacrifices rendered to create an independent state. Pakistanis haven't created apartheid walls, nor do they commit heinous crimes against minorities. They haven't created series of checkpoints, where they order women to remove their clothes on the pretext of necessary checking. Pakistanis haven't detained minority's kids in the jails, as young as 11-12 years.

[ahsan28]

And what about Pakistan? This country, although it is almost entirely muslim , is on the edge of a civil war.

Courtesy of US :D

[wilberhum]

It was the best option, if we trace back the pages of history and recall the attitude of by hindus with Muslims, prior to creation of Pakistan.

They were better than they ever have been since the partition.

The difference between Pakistan and Israel remains that Israel was forcibly created by the west,

I personally would find little comfort in who made it life threatening to stay where my family had been for generation after generation and I had to lose all I had worked for.

whereas Pakistan was created by the locals as a result of their sacrifices rendered to create an independent state.

I think you need a history book.

Pakistanis haven't created apartheid walls, nor do they commit heinous crimes against minorities. They haven't created series of checkpoints, where they order women to remove their clothes on the pretext of necessary checking. Pakistanis haven't detained minority's kids in the jails, as young as 11-12 years.

Right, and Kashmir is a fine example for all of us to live by. :hmm:

[wilberhum]

Courtesy of US :D

Right, the US is the cause of all evil. :offended:
I just can't figure out how we have been doing it for 1400 years.
:D

[Amadeus85]

Courtesy of US :D

Really? :muddlehea And i thought that the reason is that radical muslims want to impose there sharia law and Musharraf says no :muddlehea

[islamirama]

this and the Israel-Palestine conflict seem almost same to me.

I fail to seee how you can draw that conclusion.

Indian-pakistan-bengladesh are all 3 one people. One origin, one color, one heritage. Due to their religious differences, they wanted their own space. Even the sikhs want their own nation (khalistan) from hindus.

Palestine-Israel, One group of people forced upon another from outside, supported by outsiders by all means from political, financial to military and at the objection of the inhabitants (muslims, christian and jews alike).

[ahsan28]

Really? :muddlehea And i thought that the reason is that radical muslims want to impose there sharia law and Musharraf says no :muddlehea

There is no harm in implementing sharia, afterall the country was created in the name of Islam, sad aspect remains that this country couldn't get itself free of US influence. Earlier also, they were used as tools to contain Russian onslaught and now again they are fighting US war on terror in their own country.

[Amadeus85]

There is no harm in implementing sharia, afterall the country was created in the name of Islam, sad aspect remains that this country couldn't get itself free of US influence. Earlier also, they were used as tools to contain Russian onslaught and now again they are fighting US war on terror in their own country.

But i read that those talibs (students) wanted to impose sharia using sticks and violence. Maybe this is the problem.

[islamirama]

But i read that those talibs (students) wanted to impose sharia using sticks and violence. Maybe this is the problem.

You heard what musharaaf's regime reported and what your regime reported to you. Nothing could be further from the truth...

[ahsan28]

But i read that those talibs (students) wanted to impose sharia using sticks and violence. Maybe this is the problem.

That is absolutely the wrong way. If you are referring to the mosque incident, certainly they were not on correct lines, however I must say their intentions weren't malafide, but the procedure adopted by them was incorrect. If you critically and honestly view the existing resistance, you would agree that it has taken an altogether new shape after US misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Today Pakistan is paying heavily for the US failures in Afghanistan.

[wilberhum]

You heard what musharaaf's regime reported and what your regime reported to you. Nothing could be further from the truth...

Please tell us, what is "The Truth".

Today Pakistan is paying heavily for the US failures in Afghanistan.

Now, that would be "The Truth".

[islamirama]

Please tell us, what is "The Truth".



Now, that would be "The Truth".

The TRUTH is what you hear from the source itself. Are you in touch with anyone or know anyone who is in touch with anyone personally in pakistan? If not then lets not go any further in this discussion as I'm not interested in wasting my time.

[wilberhum]

The TRUTH is what you hear from the source itself. Are you in touch with anyone or know anyone who is in touch with anyone personally in pakistan? If not then lets not go any further in this discussion as I'm not interested in wasting my time.

No I don't know anyone personally in Pakistan.

That is why I as you that the truth was.

So what is "The Truth"?

I would really like to know.

[islamirama]

No I don't know anyone personally in Pakistan.

That is why I as you that the truth was.

So what is "The Truth"?

I would really like to know.

The Truth is what i had posted in the Lal Masjid thread. That information came from people at ground zero.

[wilberhum]

The Truth is what i had posted in the Lal Masjid thread. That information came from people at ground zero.

So you know those people personally?

[ahsan28]

The truth remains that Pakistan exists as an independent state and those Indians, who wish to see the existing borders to be eliminated can go to sound sleep :D

[Amadeus85]

The truth remains that Pakistan exists as an independent state and those Indians, who wish to see the existing borders to be eliminated can go to sound sleep :D

Looking at the mess that takes place now in Pakistan i dont think that Indians would want so much to make this borders eliminated.

[ahsan28]

As I said earlier, the US is responsible for creating this mess, see despite their all available resources and military might, they haven't been able to defeat Talibans. In a recent article in Newsweek, the Americans have admitted their failure against IEDs (improvided explosive devices) being used by the freedom fighters in Afghanistan and Iraq, saying that their million $ equipment is being destroyed by the locals with IEDs, which don't have worth more than a pizza, see the frustration of the superpower of the world and they are asking Pakistan to do, which they themselves couldn't in both the countries :D

Remember, such operations have their repercussions, you can't avoid and relax, nothing would happen to the existing borders. They are a nuclear nation and know how to defend against any aggression. So the neighbours can't get anything out of the existing circumstances, even if they have their axe to grind against Pakistan since 1947 :D

[Amadeus85]

Remember, such operations have their repercussions, you can't avoid and relax, nothing would happen to the existing borders. They are a nuclear nation and know how to defend against any aggression. So the neighbours can't get anything out of the existing circumstances, even if they have their axe to grind against Pakistan since 1947 :D

I read an indian forum, and most people there said that they dont want Pakistan back , because they have enough problems with 130 millions of muslims already in India.

[ahsan28]

I read an indian forum, and most people there said that they dont want Pakistan back , because they have enough problems with 130 millions of muslims already in India.

BTW, who offerred them ???? :D

Any evidence????

[wilberhum]

As I said earlier, the US is responsible for creating this mess

Is there any problem that the US is not responsible for? :hmm:

Well excluding those that Israel is responsible for.

Oh, but then I for got, we are reponsible for that. :D

What I still can't figure out is how we have been doing it for 1400 years. :giggling:

[ahsan28]

What I still can't figure out is how we have been doing it for 1400 years. :giggling:

Well, I never said that. But for the existing unrest and turmoil, please accept the responsibility. The US misadventures and ill-thought-out policies are bound to bring destruction and nothing else. Deep introspection is the need of the hour :D

[wilberhum]

Well, I never said that. But for the existing unrest and turmoil, please accept the responsibility. The US misadventures and ill-thought-out policies are bound to bring destruction and nothing else. Deep introspection is the need of the hour :D

Some of the existing unrest, for sure.

All of the existing unrest, not hardly.

[snakelegs]

this is an interesting read - obviously it applies to the subcontinent as a whole.

"The idea of India as a poor country is relatively recent: historically, South Asia was always famous as the richest region of the globe, whose fertile soils gave two harvests a year, and whose mines groaned with minerals."

"What changed all this was quite simply the advent of European colonialism. Following Vasco da Gama's discovery of the sea route to the East in 1498, bypassing the Middle East and conquering the centres of spice production in South Asia, European colonial traders - first the Portuguese, then the Dutch and finally the British - slowly wrecked the old trading network and imposed with their cannons and caravels a western imperial system of command economics."

"As the 18th century historian Alexander Dow put it: "Bengal was one of the richest, most populous and best cultivated kingdoms in the world… We may date the commencement of decline from the day on which Bengal fell under the dominion of foreigners."

complete article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/ma...ftindia104.xml